Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill

Countess of Mar Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 5th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I am totally confused as well because I thought we were still on group 7. I am going to confuse everyone even further by moving and speaking to Amendment 33.

[The Deputy Speaker (The Countess of Mar) (CB)]

My Lords, it might help the noble Baroness to know that she cannot move her amendment at this stage because it has not been called.

[Baroness Randerson]

I shall speak to Amendment 33, which seeks to amend government Amendment 29. This would allow the Secretary of State the power to extend the provisions in Amendment 29 to other local transport authorities as well as to metro mayors. This is where I differ from the general view that has been expressed so far, and have differed from it in our past debates, because in our view it is unfair that this power should apply only to areas with metro mayors. Perhaps that is because I come from Wales, where it is the policy of the Government not to have metro mayors so, however large the city, you have no metro mayors.

However, I can think of other areas that might want to take a lead in encouraging modern transport—for example, Cornwall, which was granted special powers on bus franchising but clearly does not have a metro mayor. I remember reading recently that a list of the most congested towns in Britain was topped by Bournemouth, which has no metro mayor. Those are all areas that would quite likely wish to encourage the use of electric cars and ultra-low-emission vehicles which in some areas suffer from considerable congestion. As we all know, congestion means increased emissions, and that is why they would have a legitimate reason to want extra powers along the lines that the metro mayors are being allowed.

The new amendment was picked up by the DPRRC in its 28th report, to which I draw the attention of the House. In its previous report, the DPPRC highlighted the fact that the power to make regulations under Section 10 should be made by affirmative procedure, and it was not convinced by the idea that only the first set of regulations should be affirmative. In its 28th report, it argued that the new clause further undermines the Government’s argument. It states:

“Allowing mayors to request different regimes for their own areas, in our view, must imply that provision which will be made in such area specific regulations will be significantly different from that made in relation to the UK generally. Accordingly, we consider that the affirmative procedure should apply to all exercises of the power where regulations under clause 10 are made in response to a request under the new clause”.


We are asking for the Secretary of State to have additional powers to devolve powers, no matter what local government structure is in place because, as others have said, in urban areas, there is a strong need to encourage the use of ultra-low-emission vehicles.

Haulage Permits and Trailer Registration Bill [HL]

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Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 17th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bradshaw (LD)]

My Lords, I would like to amplify what the noble Lord said. The effect on the logistics industry will be almost catastrophic if Brexit goes ahead. Are the main players in that—the FTA, the RHA, the Rail Freight Group and the Port of Dover—freely able to make their representations, or have they been made subject to some sort of confidentiality clause, which is a gagging clause, which stops them making representations?

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, may I help the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, in his question about the rules of debate? If he were to make a point that I had not understood, I could ask him to clarify his point and he would then be allowed to get up a second time to do that, just briefly.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, I listened carefully to what the noble Lords opposite said and there is very little that I take issue with. They made very good points indeed. But my position is that we are sending Her Majesty’s Government in to negotiate the Brexit deal. The last thing that we want to do is unnecessarily to tie the hands of our negotiators and perhaps find out at the last moment that that hand-tying exercise has compromised our negotiating position. I sympathise with the points that noble Lords made, but I do not have sympathy with the amendments and I hope that my noble friend will advise the House not to accept them.

Road Safety: Hand-held Devices

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Monday 13th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, we are very sensitive to the pressures which police face. We recognised the importance of wider police spending in the 2015 spending review, which protected overall police spending in real terms. It is of course up to police and crime commissioners and chief constables of each police force to decide how they deploy resources. As my noble friend Lady Pidding highlighted, as well as working closely with the police to support enforcement action, police forces across the country are doing valuable work in the campaign to reduce hand-held mobile use and we should commend them.

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, is there not a problem with traceability when it comes to issuing cyclists with fixed penalty notices? There is no obvious sign, as there is with a car and its registration plate. Cyclists can give a Mickey Mouse name and address. What is the effect of the fixed penalty notice in this case?

[Baroness Sugg]

On cycling, as I mentioned earlier, there are a number of measures which officers can use, including verbal warnings and fixed penalty notices. However, I acknowledge that there is a problem with traceability. That is something that the cycle safety review, which we will publish next year, will address.

Road Safety: Eye Tests

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Monday 31st October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I shall write to the noble Lord on the specifics, but as I have said, our safety standards have led to one of the lowest comparative figures across Europe for such accidents, and the Government are looking at how they can work with the medical profession. The pilot in Birmingham that I referred to consists of 113 surgeries where people can talk to their general practitioners about the need for an eye test and nominate themselves to get their eyes tested. Indeed, GPs are also looking at how their duty of care can be extended where someone refuses or is unable to report their eyesight deficiency to the DVLA.

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister implied in an earlier response that from the age of 70 drivers are expected to take a retest and then do so subsequently every three years. In fact, it is not a driving test as we understand it: it is just a question of filling in forms saying that you do not have certain diseases. Can he please correct his statement?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Countess is quite correct. I was talking about people having their driving licence renewed after reaching the age of 70, and as I am sure noble Lords know, it is on a three-year basis and the noble Countess is right to point out that it is a specific declaration made by drivers themselves. But as I have intimated, we are looking into how we can work with health practitioners, particularly GPs, to make self-nomination work more effectively.

Aviation: Fume Events

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Tuesday 18th March 2014 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[The Countess of Mar]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how air crew and passengers in commercial airlines without filtration or detection systems are warned, protected and informed in the event of a fume incident from contaminated bleed air.

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I declare my interest as patron of the GCAQE.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Kramer) (LD)]

My Lords, operators are required to include detailed instructions to crew on procedures to be followed when contamination of cabin air is present or suspected. Any passenger who became unwell would be given first aid by the crew and, if necessary, referred for further medical assessment and care after landing. There is no national or international legislation requiring air crew or passengers to be informed of fume events.

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, it is almost 60 years since the danger of fumes seeping into cabin air was first reported. With the notable exception of the Boeing 787, virtually all passenger jets still have flawed and potentially dangerous bleed air systems, a design that leaks pyrolised oil into the air supply. Does the Minister agree that most shocking of all is the fact that airlines fail to inform passengers that they have been exposed, which—and I have chosen my words very carefully—must be a breach of passengers’ rights and casts a dark reflection on the aviation industry? What solutions does the Minister have?

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, on most commercial aircraft the cabin air supply is provided by engine bleed air, which is drawn from the compressor stage of the engine. Contamination, known as a fume event, may occur when oil or hydraulic fluid is released into the bleed air—for example, as a result of an oil seal failure—resulting in the formation of a fleeting odour or mist in the aircraft cabin. Most fume events last less than a minute or two.

Many investigations have been carried out by the department, of which the noble Countess will be well aware. The committee on toxicity concluded that there was no evidence for pollutants occurring in cabin at levels exceeding available health and safety standards and guidelines and, as most levels observed were comparable to those typically experienced in domestic settings, there is appropriately no requirement for passengers to be informed. There are many steps to be taken if there is an assessment that there is any endangerment to any passengers or to the flight.

Transport: Bus Services

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Monday 20th May 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am a little disappointed. I thought that the noble Lord would have given me a much better run for my money. I accept that there has to be a 20% cut in the bus service operators grant. It is painful. My honourable friend Mr Norman Baker would have liked not to have done it—I am sure he would have fought hard to avoid it—but the best way of reducing the budget is to make small cuts everywhere, and we have had to make a small cut in the bus service operators grant. However, the effect on the bus service mileage has not been as much as one might expect.

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, talking of small cuts, our local village has a rather intermittent bus service, but they use quite large buses on the route. The buses are mainly empty. Would it be possible to use minibuses, which are cheaper to maintain, do not take up so much of the road and do not wreck the roads quite so much, instead of expensive single-decker buses?

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Countess makes a good point, but it is of course up to the operator to select the most suitable bus for its operations. It is a purely operational matter.

Roads: New and Young Drivers

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Monday 18th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, does the noble Earl agree that it is very hard to legislate for the exuberance of youths, especially when egged on by other exuberant youths, and that, even with a green plate on the back of their cars, they will test the boundaries of the law as hard as they can? I am not advocating that they should ignore the law but we have to face the facts. We were all young once and did silly things.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, experience from Sweden shows that a longer period of learner driving supervision can reduce the risk of accidents later. It is one of the things that we are looking at and we hope that it will address some of the behavioural issues.

Civil Aviation Bill

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Wednesday 7th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I apologise to the House for not being able to take part in the Committee stage of this Bill, although I have read with interest what was said. I congratulate my noble friend on bringing forward these amendments. They have gone a very long way towards meeting the concerns raised.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, understands this House, and I am sure that he will make representations to his party that it is really against the good will of the House to put down nothing but starred amendments from the Opposition. He was a workhorse of the previous Government and I know that he appreciated, as did the House, that amendments put down in good time lead to a better debate than those put down at the last minute. I exonerate him totally in this matter—I do not think that it is his fault. I believe that he has been overruled on this and I am sure that if he had had his way, he would have put the amendments down at an earlier stage.

With regard to the arguments on Amendment 2, the noble Lord rather lost me, as he was not as succinct as usual in putting forward his case. From what I managed to understand, I believe that he does have a point—this was echoed by my noble friend Lord Cathcart—in that we need to make the wording a little stronger. Will my noble friend Lord Attlee look at that again?

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Davies. I have never found “desirability” in legislation before and I have been here quite a long time. I find it rather strange. It does not fit with the beginnings of the three preceding paragraphs in this clause, which all talk about “the need to promote” or “the need to secure”, and I believe that we should keep the phraseology in line with what is already in the Bill. Therefore the noble Lord, Lord Davies, has my support.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, I have a lot of sympathy for this amendment. However, most of us, as the noble Lord indicated, will tend not to look at the CAA website when we are booking a plane ticket and will instead look at the individual airline or—as I did foolishly, and have recorded in my blog—at a site called fly.co.uk, which invents all sorts of other hidden surcharges of its own. It is an area that is bedevilled by surprises that are intended to get you when you have already committed and just want to get on with the business of getting your ticket. I would certainly appreciate anything the Government can do to make this area less dangerous for the likes of me.

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, I note that in the preamble to subsection (1), it says that the CAA,

“must publish, or arrange for the publication”.

There is no reason why it should not arrange for the publication of these figures by the airlines themselves, as part of the contract that it has with the airlines. I do not fly myself as I have been banned from flying—not because I drink too much or anything like that but for medical reasons—but I am very conscious of the amount of publicity that is given and the number of complaints there are about the lack of clarity and transparency over airline fares. This is a very valuable amendment.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for the explanation of the problem. I fear that I will have to repeat my comments about Clause 83, which is widely drawn and gives the CAA a new and important statutory role in promoting better public information about the aviation industry’s performance. It imposes a duty on the CAA to either publish, or arrange for the aviation sector to publish, consumer information and advice that it considers appropriate to help people compare aviation prices and services.

The noble Countess, Lady Mar, picked up on the point about the CAA arranging for the aviation sector to publish. It may well be that it knows that information is being published or it can encourage someone to publish it and therefore it does not need to publish it itself; it may choose to put a link on its website. In answer to my noble friend Lord Lucas, I was not aware that the CAA was doing all this great work to help us compare ticket prices, both real and imaginary. One of the benefits of our debate is that some people will, I hope, become more aware of the excellent work that the CAA does. I hope this Bill will make it even easier for the travelling public to compare what they will actually have to pay.

The judgment of what is appropriate should be a matter for the regulator. We should not be tying the regulator’s hands, because in time we will get this particular problem, say of payment surcharges, licked and then there might be another problem. If we tie the hands of the regulator and say that it has to concentrate on payment surcharges, but in future the problem is something else, we will have made a mistake. We should leave the regulator with the flexibility. Unfortunately, the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, seeks to remove that discretion from the regulator. He is right to test the policy but I do not think we should remove that discretion.

I want to address the specific mention of two aspects of the price of air transport services: the full costs of air travel, and the application of payment surcharges as they are already being addressed by the Government and the regulator. On the full costs of travel, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, consumers are already protected throughout the EU by EU regulation 1008/2008—sometimes referred to as the “ticket transparency” regulation. This requires airlines to display prices inclusive of all unavoidable and foreseeable taxes, fees and charges at all times. It also requires any optional services, such as checked baggage or priority boarding, to be offered on an opt-in basis only, and for the prices for these optional extras to be clearly and unambiguously displayed at the start of the booking process. In addition to displaying fully inclusive prices, the regulation also requires a breakdown of the price into the fare and any taxes, charges, surcharges and fees where these are added to the fare. These services should also be clearly and unambiguously displayed at the start of the booking process. The purpose of these requirements is to ensure that consumers are able to compare the prices of flights across a number of airlines, and to ensure that they select only the optional extras that they want.

The CAA has been working with airlines to ensure compliance with this requirement and considers that the airlines it worked with are now compliant with Article 23 of the regulation and that consumers are able to compare the prices of flights effectively, ensuring that they are able to choose flights that best meet their needs.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, referred to the three noble Lords who contributed to the previous debate and support his amendment. I do not claim that we have the problem licked yet, but I do say that we are making progress and that with this Bill we will continue to make better progress.

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lord, are there any penalties for airlines that contravene the regulation?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I suspect that there are sanctions but I would prefer to write to the noble Countess and other noble Lords to give the full details. I believe that we will all find the answer to the noble Countess’s question to be very interesting.

Secondly, on payment surcharges, I share consumers’ concerns about the high level of payments surcharges applied by some companies and the fact that often people are not aware of the level of these charges until they are almost at the end of the booking process. This makes it difficult to compare prices and to shop around for a good deal. Noble Lords will recall the debate initiated a while ago by the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, on this point—a very useful debate, I thought.

It is not right that a business should try to hide the true costs of its services by implying that its prices are made up of elements beyond its control when they are not. Your Lordships will be aware that consumers are already protected against misleading pricing under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. The CAA has been able to enforce the principal obligations imposed by Article 23 through these regulations. In addition, the Government have publicly consulted on whether there should be early implementation of the payment surcharges provision of the new European consumer rights directive ahead of its deadline for introduction into the UK in 2014. This is important to aviation consumers because some businesses add a charge to the price of goods or services when the consumer chooses to pay by a particular method, for example by credit card or debit card. These additional charges are known as payment surcharges.

The BIS consultation set out the Government’s proposal for early implementation of a provision of the consumer rights directive. This will put in place legislation to ban businesses from imposing excessive payment surcharges on consumers. Businesses will remain able to add a charge only so far as it covers the actual costs of processing any particular form of payment. The consultation has sought views on the timing of the implementation of this legislation and how best to define the scope and application of the provision. Consultation on this early action closed on 15 October and BIS is now considering the next steps. The responses to the consultation will inform BIS guidance to businesses on how to set its fees in compliance with the directive.

I hope it is clear from what I have said that the intent of this amendment is already implicit in the primary duty of the CAA and that there are actions in hand and effective mechanisms already in place to secure the intended result. Given this, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

Your Lordships may recall that, during Grand Committee consideration of the Civil Aviation Bill, we debated amendments relating to the efficiency of the CAA. In responding to the Committee, I undertook to continue to reflect on the matter and to consider what further reassurances could be given on Report. That thorough consideration has led to Amendment 62. We have concluded from our discussions with the aviation industry, and from the debates here and in the other place, that the key concerns that had to be addressed were the need for transparency of the CAA’s efficiency measures and for further accountability for them. That was what I teased the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, about on the previous amendment.

In responding to Amendment 61, I described the four elements of Amendment 62. The Secretary of State is already required under Section 21(3) of the Civil Aviation Act 1982 to lay before each House of Parliament a copy of every report made to him in pursuance of that section. If Amendment 62 is accepted, in future the annual report laid in each House will include an efficiency statement made by the CAA and the auditor’s assessment of that efficiency statement. Taken together, these provisions provide for better transparency of the CAA’s efficiency measures and better accountability for those efficiency measures, which is an end I am sure most noble Lords would desire. I therefore urge your Lordships to accept Amendment 62. I beg to move.

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, I am pleased to see the amendment because it gives me a chance to ask the Minister about my airline pilots. He will now be aware that a great many airline pilots believe that they are ill because of fumes in the cockpit. I am pleased to see that his department is now going to answer letters from airline pilots slightly more kindly than they did in the summer.

One of the duties and functions of the Civil Aviation Authority is the enforcement of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 through the working time regulations. I have ascertained—not from his department but from the Department for Work and Pensions through the Health and Safety Executive—that no measures have been taken by the Civil Aviation Authority to enforce any health and safety at work contraventions in the time that it has had this power. I find that almost unbelievable because we know of several cases where airline pilots have come off their aeroplane and had to be taken to hospital.

Will the Minister confirm that the Civil Aviation Authority has the duty to enforce the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 for people on board an aeroplane, whether it is on the ground in the airport or in flight? Will the CAA make a statement about the imposition of its functions in this requirement under the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974?

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I strongly support the remarks of my noble friend Lady Mar. I admire the campaign that she has been running and will no doubt continue to run until it achieves success. In giving that support, I have questions for the Minister. In Committee, the Minister suggested that very little evidence had been brought to his eyes supporting the contentions that have been made in this matter. Will he tell the House how many representations that he has had since Committee stage? Will he accept that significant representations have been made and that those should be considered?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it may be helpful to the House if I respond to the noble Countess’s point about cabin air quality. First, I have full confidence in the advice that officials have given me, and everything that they have done has been in accordance with my intent. However, I agree that it was unfortunate that official letters from officials were not personally addressed to the addressees. I accept that point.

The noble Countess and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, will recognise that they have raised issues slightly wide of the amendment. However, I will write to them. I have already answered Questions for Written Answer on the health and safety issue, but I will gladly repeat that information in a letter to the noble Countess.

[The Countess of Mar]

Before the noble Earl sits down, can he confirm that it is a function of the Civil Aviation Authority to enforce the terms of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I refer the noble Countess to the Questions for Written Answer that I have answered.

Railways: London Midland Rail Franchise

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Wednesday 31st October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, first, it is important to understand that the TOC has a target of continuously improving performance. Secondly, we need to understand that the penalties for breaching the contractual obligations are actually quite serious; so under the system of measuring performance it is possible for the TOC to have a few bad weeks and not be in breach of contract, but if it continues in that way, it will, under the terms of the franchise, eventually end up in breach of contract and be vulnerable to serious consequences.

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, does the noble Earl agree that it is not just the salary that matters with a job; job satisfaction involves all sorts of other factors such as being respected by your employer, being given decent working hours, being able to expect to work on certain days and not others, and always having something to anticipate that is good? This, I am afraid, is where London Midland has fallen down, and is why it is not retaining its drivers. Can anything be done to encourage it to be good to its workforce?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Countess is absolutely right. What actually encourages London Midland to sort this problem out are the provisions of the franchise that contain the necessary penalties.

Civil Aviation Bill

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Monday 9th July 2012 Grand Committee

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, for introducing this interesting, probing amendment, because it gives me the opportunity to say something about how innovative the aviation sector in this country already is and the CAA’s role as the regulator. My noble friend Lord Rotherwick spoke about innovation in navigational aids. I look forward to debating his Amendment 73, which will deal with these issues, but his comments were valuable nevertheless. He indirectly illustrated why the CAA should concentrate on regulation.

My view is that market forces should be allowed to drive innovation in industry and the regulator should be responsive to it. This is how things have worked so far between the aviation sector and the CAA. Indeed, just how innovative our aviation sector is is a measure of how well this arrangement has worked.

Let us consider one aspect of the aviation sector, the aerospace industry. Our aerospace industry is the world’s largest outside the USA, with a 17% share of the global market. Its annual turnover is more than £20 billion, and it directly employs more than 100,000 people, supporting a total of 230,000 jobs across the UK economy. Its workforce is highly skilled: 36% of its employees have university degrees or equivalent.

The aviation travel industry is equally innovative. In my opening speech at Second Reading, I paid tribute to this fact, saying:

“In 2010 … UK airports served nearly 400 international destinations. That level of activity is possible because over the past 30 years the aviation industry has changed to meet the needs of the customer. The emergence of low-cost carriers is one example of how the industry has innovated and diversified. There has also been an increase in the number of people travelling by air in this country, from 59 million passengers in 1982 to 211 million in 2010”.—[Official Report, 13/6/12; col. 1364.]

The CAA has its own international consultancy, Civil Aviation Authority International, or CAAi, which is a wholly owned subsidiary of the CAA. It is a leading, globally recognised aviation consultancy company that delivers and promotes best practice in aviation governance and education. CAAi provides technical advisory services across a range of aviation-related activities, environmental consulting, professional training, aviation examination services and certification against internationally recognised quality management standards. CAAi’s work contributes to enhancing safety standards worldwide.

The CAA is also quick to respond to innovation in the aviation industry. I have come across two examples in the past few days. The noble Lord, Lord Sugar, has raised with me the issue of PDAs in the cockpit. The CAA is assisting many UK commercial air transport operators to gain approval for the use of electronic flight bags. An electronic flight bag approval will allow an operator to replace many of its cockpit paper-based processes with an electronic solution such as a laptop or tablet device or with an aircraft manufacturer’s own certificated system. The CAA is working with EASA and ICAO to standardise and simplify the requirements for operational approval of electronic flight bags.

The second example is the CAA’s work on its future airspace strategy, alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham. As the noble Lord reminded the Committee, I offered some aviation briefing sessions to Peers shortly before Second Reading. As part of those, the CAA’s Director of Airspace Policy, Mark Swan, gave a presentation on its future airspace strategy. Through the strategy the CAA is modernising how we use our airspace in this country with the aim of achieving a,

“safe, efficient airspace, that has the capacity to meet reasonable demand, balances the needs of all users and mitigates the impact of aviation on the environment”.

Mark Swan explained that this aim depends on the ability to take advantage of technological developments. For example, new communications, navigation and surveillance improve situational awareness of users and controllers; increased navigational accuracy enables closer-spaced routes; and the amount of noise experienced by communities will be reduced as aircraft fly their routes more accurately and consistently. Operators will be able to free route in the upper airspace along the most fuel-efficient track. This is important. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, touched on emissions and the need to tackle them with technology and innovation. The future airspace strategy is an example of how the CAA can facilitate innovation in the civil aviation industry without the need for a new duty.

The noble Lord, Lord Soley, spoke previously about using advanced biofuels in the aviation sector, as did the noble Lord, Lord Davies, today. Today the noble Lord, Lord Soley, talked about quieter aircraft. He will recall that the quota system of regulating noise at Heathrow airport strongly encourages quieter aircraft. Indeed, under the quota system some aircraft cannot fly at all at night. While there are some obvious barriers, the Government believe that sustainable biofuels have a role to play in reducing carbon emissions from transport, particularly in sectors where there are limited alternatives to fossil fuels, such as aviation. The Committee on Climate Change has carried out studies on the potential for biofuels to reduce emissions from UK aviation in the long term. Its latest estimate is that biofuels could supply 10% of jet fuel demand by 2050, suggesting the impact that future innovation might have.

I said that it is my view that market forces, rather than regulators, drive innovation. I believe that the examples I have provided together show that the industry and the CAA have got the balance right.

[The Countess of Mar]

Does the noble Earl agree that in some cases market forces can have a derogatory effect on the industry? For example, it can lead to cutting corners. I think particularly of my own interest, the cutting of corners in reporting incidents on aeroplanes. Because an aeroplane has to be grounded, it means time out of action and competition within the airline industry is so great that it leads to reluctance on the part of employees to report incidents when they should. This leads to a backwards step as far as innovation is concerned, because, if they did report these things, maybe innovation would lead to improvements in facilities. I hope that the noble Earl sees what I mean.

[Earl Attlee]

I entirely agree with the noble Countess that market forces can have an undesirable effect. That is why we need a highly skilled and competent regulator, such as the CAA, to ensure that those undesirable effects of market forces are eliminated as far as possible.

I would like to quote from the Government publication Principles For Economic Regulation:

“The Government will not seek to add objectives, responsibilities or duties to regulators’ remits without detailed consideration of the impact of the addition on the overall framework, and consideration of cross-sector impacts and even then only when it is clear that the addition is the optimal way to achieve the outcome sought”.

I am not convinced that the addition of an innovation duty is,

“the optimal way to achieve the outcome sought”.

For the reasons I have identified, I believe that we are already in a good place with regard to innovation in the aviation industry. There is a risk that giving the CAA an innovation duty would oblige the CAA to meddle in the market and may even restrict the way in which the aviation industry would be able to innovate. This has been an interesting short debate. I can well understand why the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, has tabled his amendment, but I hope that he will withdraw it at the appropriate point.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I must confess that when I read this provision originally it seemed to be a rather extraordinary provision to be included in the Bill. I therefore took the occasion to make some inquiries. First, I declare an interest. For a number of years, I held an aviation medical certificate, which has now lapsed owing to my great age. Throughout the 40-odd years that I held a civil aviation licence, I was dealt with with the utmost consideration and skill by the CAA, and previously by the Ministry of Aviation’s medical authorities, including on two occasions having my licence suspended for medical reasons, entirely correctly and properly, by the then authorities.

My concern is confidentiality. I am and always have been very anxious that medical information held by public authorities, whether it is the CAA or anyone else, should remain properly confidential. I accept that there are provisions in these arrangements to keep confidential the information that is to be released to others, but the civil aviation community, the number of those who hold civil licences and air traffic control licences, is comparatively small. There is a risk that, if the information for some unusual medical conditions is published, it will be possible to identify the persons concerned. If the information on, say, half a dozen or so cases of a particularly obscure medical condition is made available to research agencies, it will be obvious who is the holder of that medical information.

I hope that my noble friend can explain in a little more detail than appears in the Explanatory Memorandum why it is necessary to have this new power. Can he give me the necessary assurances with regard to the absolute confidentiality of the information to be provided?

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, I am pleased to see this clause in the Bill. Some years ago, research was conducted on airline pilots who had been exposed to organophosphates. I am sorry but I have a problem with my voice. It was impossible for the CAA to give any details whatever to the researchers and it caused huge difficulties. This will relieve that difficulty, so I am very pleased to see it.

[Lord Rotherwick]

My Lords, I have great sympathy with my noble friend Lord Trefgarne’s opposition to the clause. I would be very interested to hear what the Minister has to say because I think that my noble friend’s concerns are those of many similar pilots.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[The Countess of Mar]

71: After Clause 105, insert the following new Clause—
“Public interest disclosure
(1) The Civil Aviation Act 1982 is amended as follows.
(2) After paragraph (ha) of section 60(3) (functions with respect to health) insert—
“( ) for ensuring that all airline pilots and crew are aware of and are protected by the terms of the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998.””

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords first, I apologise if my voice runs out; I have a problem in that direction. In moving Amendment 71, I shall speak to Amendment 72. I suspect that most noble Lords will be aware of my long-held interest in organophosphates—OPs—and, more particularly, those whose health has been damaged by exposure to OPs. This interest stems from my personal experience.

At Second Reading I spoke of the method by which the air that pilots, airline crew and passengers breathe is drawn in over the very hot engines of an aeroplane on to which oil may have leaked. This oil, manufactured by one company, ExxonMobil, contains an OP—tricresylphosphate, or TCP. This becomes aerosolised when heated to high temperatures, such as when it drips on to a hot engine. I detailed the chemical stages during Committee on the CAA Act 2006, as I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, will remember, so I will not do it again.

I know that the Minister will rely on the much criticised Cranfield study which looked at a sample of just 100 flights and found no so-called fume events. What it did find was the presence of TCP in 23% of flights and there were 38 reports of fumes of which the majority were described as “oil” or “oily type” smells. A mandatory occurrence report or defect report was not triggered for a single flight, despite this being a requirement of Commission Regulation (EC) No. 859/2008, which amended No. 3922/91. An “occurrence” is defined in directive 2003/42/EC as,

“an operational interruption, defect, fault or other irregular circumstance that has or may have influenced flight safety and that has not resulted in an accident or serious incident”.

The directive is worth reading because it details occurrences such as fume events. I wonder why these occurrences were so studiously ignored by the Cranfield researchers.

Toyber’s dictum states:

“Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”.

There are two problems with occurrence reporting. The first is that pilots and crew know that if they report a fume event, their aircraft will have to be grounded at considerable cost to their employer and that, to put it mildly, is likely to be frowned upon. The second problem is that of credibility. Fume events are, by their nature, transient. They can be minor or major, and I know that the Minister has seen film of a major event when you could hardly see down the cabin because of the smoke. There is no standard equipment on board an aircraft to collect or measure toxic fumes, and the human nose is the only available detection system. Engineering tests, unless they very precisely replicate the conditions under which a reported event took place, are very unlikely to produce a fume event. In either case, the reporting officer will be afraid at least to be made to look a fool or at worst to be sacked.

The CAA Act 2006 placed on the Secretary of State and the CAA duties in connection with,

“the health of persons on board aircraft”.

The EU legislation listed in my Amendment 72 also places duties on the competent authority in relation to the health and safety of pilots, crew and passengers on board aircraft. Other EU and international legislation defines the safety of the aircraft, its engines, other mechanical equipment and even the quality of the engine oil to be used. Much of the health and safety legislation that applies to everyone in the UK workplace is defined in health and safety Acts and regulations. The Minister, in a letter to me dated 18 June this year, stated that:

“The operation of aircraft in and over Great Britain is subject to the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. Consequently, the Control of Substances Hazardous to Health Regulations (COSHH) 2002 (as amended) do apply to aircraft in flight in airspace above Great Britain. However, the Civil Aviation Authority (Working Time) Regulations 2004 (as amended), also impose a duty on employers to ensure adequate health and safety protection of aircraft crew on British-registered aircraft at all times. These regulations cover aircraft in flight and are enforced by the CAA”.

The memorandum of understanding between the CAA and the Health and Safety Executive, which the Minister mentions in his letter, states at paragraph 1.5.3:

“The CAA is responsible for regulating the occupational health and safety of crew members whilst they are on board an aircraft from the time when they board the aircraft, preparatory to flight, to the time they leave the aircraft on completion of the flight. For the purposes of the occupational health and safety reporting and regulatory consideration, the CAA will monitor events occurring in aircraft whilst in operation outside the UK”.

That all sounds very good. However, when the CAA was challenged for failing to enforce the COSHH regulations, Mr Tim Williams, then the CAA health, safety and environmental adviser, wrote on 13 April 2007:

“The CAA’s health and safety enforcement powers are derived from the Civil Aviation (Working Time) Regulations 2004”—

which the Minister has told me—

“in particular Regulation 6 that requires adequate health and safety protection to be provided to crew members. These Regulations neither replicate nor replace those made under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974, which are enforced by the Health and Safety Executive. The Control of Substances Hazardous to Health Regulations 2002 … are derived from the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 and”—

I hope that the Minister will listen to this—

“the CAA has no authority to enforce these Regulations, with enforcement duties falling to the HSE. It is therefore inappropriate for the CAA to investigate any alleged breaches of the COSHH Regulations. The Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between the HSE and the CAA, and in particular Annex 8, provides further details on the divisions of health and safety responsibilities in aviation. The MOU also sets out how the CAA and HSE will interact to avoid duplication of regulatory effect”.

They might also interact to avoid any regulation in this case.

Mr Williams goes on to say that the CAA is always prepared to investigate where the health and safety of crew members may have been compromised, but states that there is a lack of evidence. Of course, if you do not look, you will not find. There is plenty of evidence going back to the 1950s. If the Minister looks at the PhD thesis of Susan Michaelis, called Health and Flight Safety from Exposure to Contaminated Air in Aircraft, which I gave him last year, he will see in the annexe page upon page of contaminated air reports from May 1985 to August 2006. He will see pages of data which confirm cabin air quality problems in BAe 146s, just one of the aircraft types known to have this problem, and yet no one in government or the CAA seems to have shown any interest in what effect these events have on pilots, aircrew and passengers. I wonder, and am frequently asked, why, after a reported incident, medicals, including blood tests, are not conducted immediately on those likely to have been affected. This would at least establish whether there has been exposure to TCP.

As I said at Second Reading, a small study in Nebraska showed that 50% of passengers on one flight tested positive to TOCP, and a recent survey found that 32% of UK pilots experienced medium to long-term ill health. Forty-four per cent reported short-term effects and 13% were grounded because of fume events.

Researchers at Cranfield and the Institute of Occupational Medicine in Edinburgh express an opinion that the levels of TCP found in aircraft are acceptable, but I do not think that it needs much imagination to realise that levels of absorption and inhalation of toxic chemicals in a normal working environment such as a factory are very different from those in the enclosed, pressurised atmosphere of an aeroplane cabin or cockpit. No safe levels have been established in this case. In any event, there are no acceptable daily exposure levels laid down for the more toxic breakdown products of TCP or for the chemical cocktails produced by heated oil. Incredibly, a CAA investigation into cabin air quality suggested that the average man can safely,

“ingest 7 metric tonnes of pyrolised oil per day for 74 days without effect”.

I wonder on what sound scientific evidence that statement was based.

A long-standing former British Airways cabin crew member, concerned about the health effects that she was seeing among her colleagues, surveyed more than 1,000 crew. Among other things, she identified cancer occurring at 10 times the UK national average. She advised BA management and medical personnel of her findings. Instead of thanking her for her efforts and agreeing to take matters further, they sacked her. Although my Amendment 71 may not be perfectly worded, I hope that the Minister will accept its spirit and either assure me that airline pilots and crew will be supported and encouraged to report events that may have adverse health effects or assist me with wording an acceptable amendment to this effect.

The Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, may recall my efforts during the passage of the Civil Aviation Act 2006 to provide a truly independent health and safety and medical facility for pilots and crew. I was concerned that because the CAA was dependent on the aviation industry to fund this provision, there might be some reluctance to put pressure on the airlines to improve working conditions and health and safety grounds.

The ability to enforce COSHH regulations is fundamental to ensuring that cabin air is not contaminated, but on its own admission the CAA has no enforcement powers. This is totally unacceptable. The cockpits and cabins of airplanes are workplaces for pilots and crew. I can think of no other workplace in the UK where employees are so unprotected. I understand that an Air Navigation Order would be necessary to give the CAA this power. I hope that the Minister will agree to Amendment 72 when I move it. In the mean time, I beg to move Amendment 71.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I shall contribute briefly because I cannot do justice to this issue. However, I hope that the Minister will do so. I pay tribute to the enormous work of the noble Countess, Lady Mar, in this area. I had the privilege of knowing Nancy Tait who happened to be a constituent when I represented Enfield and first came into the House. For a number of years her concerns about asbestosis were brushed aside on the grounds that the evidence did not match the allegations being made and anxieties being expressed. Everyone else knew that huge potential costs were involved if asbestos had to be stripped out of buildings that were already constructed, to say nothing about not being used again for building. She was right and the doubts of the authorities were eventually overcome. The evidence was produced and we are all healthier because of that, not least our schoolchildren because one of the great uses of asbestos was in schools.

I do not know whether this issue is as significant as that but when the noble Countess, Lady Mar, came to see me when I had responsibility for the department in this House a few years ago, I asked for all the investigations and evidence that the department could make on these issues. I know that a significant amount of work was done. The one thing that I was not prepared to do was to stand before the House on behalf of the Government and reject the noble Countess’s amendments without an assurance that we had explored every dimension.

There was an element in that about which I have not heard any more. I wonder whether the noble Countess can enlighten the Committee. One of the issues was that the airline pilots, through BALPA, did not regard themselves as being excessively threatened by this problem. We all know that they have to protect their livelihoods and they have a vested interest, but equally no one goes to work thinking that they may be engaging in something that will seriously affect their health in the future or even make them dangerous if they fall ill while they are working. That was an important dimension. I do not know whether BALPA’s attitude has changed. There has been no reference to it but it would be germane to the debate.

[The Countess of Mar]

I think that the noble Lord might agree that being an airline pilot is quite a macho job and you do not admit that you are feeling ill until you have to. We have two pilots here. Some of the people with whom I have contact are ex-BALPA pilots and are now seriously ill—some very seriously ill. While they were members of BALPA and working they did not complain. I mentioned at Second Reading the fear that they have of reporting because of losing their jobs.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

We all understand that point. The noble Countess referred to macho jobs. There are lots of tasks that are extremely dangerous and people are prepared to take them on, but a risk to their health of what is involved is a long-running dimension that this manifestation represents.

My point is obvious enough: I was assured several years ago that there was not sufficient substance in the position as established at that stage for action to be taken. The action, of course, will be dramatic. Reference has been made to the fact that the Dreamliner does not use this air system. The Dreamliner is rather an expensive aircraft to produce, as we all know, and it is in open competition with the A380, which uses the old system. We are talking about massive resources being involved. There is no easy switch. If anyone had thought at any stage that everyone’s health could have been safeguarded just with an easy technological change, that would have been done, but we are talking about something so much bigger.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

Of course. That is a major exercise and a costly one, and would have to be done with the greatest thoroughness. The department and indeed the Government would have to be convinced that the anxieties were such that they could be allayed only by that approach. It is for the Minister to indicate to us whether he thinks that we are at that stage now; we certainly were not a few years ago.

[The Countess of Mar]

I have no intention of expecting the airline industry to scrap all its planes immediately and replace them with the Dreamliner. I recognise that that would be hugely expensive. It is just the same story as with asbestos and, in a more minor way, with sheep dip, although the latter problem has been resolved. I am concerned that people are not reporting ill health because they are frightened—frightened of losing their jobs, in one case, or of retribution. If the CAA had the power to enforce COSHH, doing so would make the airline owners maintain their aeroplanes properly— I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Empey, for his intervention there—and take notice when there was a complaint. Until we know how many complaints there are, we are not going to be able to solve the problem.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

I hear what the noble Countess says, and I heard that case deployed at the time when we met previously on this issue. Overall, though, my experience is that, whatever risks to livelihood, people have the greatest concern about threats to their long-term health and it is therefore not the case that they conceal these issues. The issue with the asbestos problem was not that people were concealing the impact; what was not being substantiated sufficiently was cause and effect, which is exactly the issue here.

--- Later in debate ---

The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, mentioned BALPA. It is interesting to note that when I had a meeting with BALPA recently concerning the Bill, at no time did it mention cabin air quality. In addition, BALPA supported the Cranfield research and issued a supportive press notice when it was published last year. The noble Countess suggests that pilots are reluctant to raise the issue because of job insecurity. Why, when they retire, do they not suddenly start blowing the whistle loud and clear? They do not.

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, that is precisely what they are doing. The people I have contact with are ex-BALPA pilots and they are now complaining. If the Minister was to go to a meeting of the GCAQE, he would see a lot of ex-BALPA pilots.

[Earl Attlee]

What I find odd is that the noble Countess has been raising the issue for some time, but no pilot or any member of cabin crew apart from a very few who are in contact with her has ever approached me on the issue. I have received nothing about it.

The noble Countess also asked me about medical data. The swab test research undertaken by the Institute of Occupational Medicine in Edinburgh found concentrations of organophosphate compounds consistent with previous measurements. I remind the Committee that the main research study published by Cranfield University in May last year found no evidence of pollutants occurring in cabin air at levels exceeding available health and safety standards and guidelines. Levels observed in flights that formed part of the study were comparable to those.

[The Countess of Mar]

I remind the noble Earl that in none of those aircraft was there a fume event, but they still found TCP in the aircraft.

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Countess has made that point before. As a mere parliamentarian, I have to rely on the academic research being conducted in an appropriate manner and subject to peer review. All the published research studies have now been formally referred to the Committee on Toxicity which is, as I said, the independent adviser to the Government. When I first came into the House in 1992, I was rapidly aware of the noble Countess’s work regarding organophosphates and sheep dips.

In answer to a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, I am sure that the law is being properly applied. The noble Lord asked: how frequent are fume events? Incidence of fume events is extremely low. The most recent figures show that in 2010, there were 207 contaminated air events reported to the CAA mandatory reporting scheme out of 1.12 million passenger and cargo flights by UK carriers. That is 0.018% or less than 1 in 5,000.

[The Countess of Mar]

Does the noble Earl agree that the Science and Technology Committee found severe underreporting of fume events?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am not sure what would drive underreporting of fume events.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, talked about his role in this matter and his discussions with the noble Countess some time ago. As I said, the UK has undertaken research where no other country has done so.

[The Countess of Mar]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Earl, but Australia and the United States have done so.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am afraid we will have to have a difference of opinion on that matter. In view of what I have said, I hope that the noble Countess will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

[The Countess of Mar]

Will the Minister kindly address my question about the ability of the CAA to regulate through COSHH? I repeat: the CAA has no authority to enforce the COSHH regulations—this is from the CAA—and it is therefore inappropriate for the CAA to investigate any breaches of the COSHH regulations.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, in my answer I explained to the Committee that I am certain there is no gap in responsibilities between the HSE and the CAA.

[The Countess of Mar]

But the HSE has the ability to enforce COSHH regulations. The CAA has no ability to enforce COSHH regulations, on its own admission, and it is important that it should be able to.

[Earl Attlee]

Yes, my Lords, but as I explained to the Committee there is a memorandum of understanding, which the noble Countess referred to, to ensure that there is no gap between enforcement by the CAA and the HSE.

[The Countess of Mar]

I thank the Minister for his response but I find that really inadequate. The facts are there: the Health and Safety Executive has the ability to apply COSHH but the CAA, on its own admission, has not that ability. It is important because engine oils and their effects would come under COSHH. I thank the Minister for addressing my other points and I am also very grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Wigley, Lord Rotherwick, Lord Empey and Lord Davies of Oldham, for their contributions and kind comments, which I found quite embarrassing.

This is an important subject. I highlighted problems with sheep dip and I was told at first that it was perfectly safe. I was proved right on that occasion and I hope that noble Lords will listen to me because there are serious effects. What concerns me perhaps as much as anything is that passengers are never told when there has been a fume event. You might get a lady who is newly pregnant—perhaps she does not know that she is— and whose baby, when it arrives, has either a cognitive problem or a deformity. We know that foetal exposure to tiny amounts of organophosphates can be quite serious.

We really need to be looking at this more thoroughly. I know that when the Cranfield work was done, it was agreed that pilots would not be looked at until it could be established whether these toxic chemicals were in fact arising in airplanes. That work has been done and there has been a lot of criticism of it. I am not too happy about it, personally, because I have seen how such research can be twisted in order to provide the answer required and I mentioned intellectual corruption at Second Reading. I am not going to let go of this. I shall pursue it even beyond this Bill. I realise that it is difficult but the noble Earl will hear more of it. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 71 withdrawn.