Transport: Bus Industry
Earl Attlee Excerpts(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Bradshaw for introducing this Question for Short Debate. He made his points very well with his usual expert style, as all noble Lords would expect.
Buses provide an essential public service and improve the quality of many people’s lives, providing cost-effective gateways to work, shopping, education and leisure. The best bus networks are built on partnership. Local government needs to work closely with operators, community organisations and the travelling public to ensure a local transport network that works for everyone. Transport operators need to listen and respond to the views of their passengers.
Central government needs to provide an appropriate legislative framework that enables innovation and creativity from bus companies and provides local authorities with the flexibility to use their local knowledge to support their bus networks in a fair and logical way. The traditional bus service with a fixed timetable is not always the right answer. Flexible, demand-responsive solutions, often provided by communities themselves, can be the better, more efficient and cost-effective option.
As I am sure your Lordships will be aware, the Competition Commission is currently investigating the bus market. As an independent organisation, and thanks to its information-gathering powers, the Competition Commission is best placed to come to a decision as to whether there are features of the local bus market that prevent, restrict or distort competition. During the inquiry, the Competition Commission is looking at a wide variety of issues and evidence relevant to the assessment of competition, including the profitability of bus operators. The Government will await the outcome of that inquiry with interest and subsequently decide on whether any changes to the legislative framework for buses are needed. In answer to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, the Competition Commission is due to report next summer, so it is sensible to wait before deciding whether changes to legislation need to be made.
My noble friend Lord Shipley talked about the future benefits of new technology. He speaks with great authority and I will certainly study Hansard carefully tomorrow in order to pick up all his points.
One of the first things that the Government announced was an additional £15 million investment in low-carbon buses though a second round of the green bus fund. This will help bus operators and local authorities to buy around 170 new hybrid and electric vehicles. This builds on the success of the first round of the green bus fund where, in 2009, £30 million was allocated to help to buy around 350 new low-carbon buses. As a result of both rounds, by April 2012, there will be around 500 new low-carbon buses on the streets of England and we hope that this will encourage other operators to make the switch.
Contrary to some predictions, we are not calling time on the concessionary travel scheme. Instead, concessionary bus travel will remain, so that older people can continue to enjoy the greater freedom and independence that the scheme gives them. However, we are looking at ways of ensuring that we get the best value for money from the scheme. We are currently consulting on reforms that lead to simplified and more efficient reimbursement arrangements and reduce the scope for disputes between local authorities and bus operators. This will ensure that the scheme remains sustainable in the future.
The Government have consistently said that reducing the country’s deficit is our main priority. Reductions in public spending will have to form part of this. The Chancellor announced that from 2012-13 bus subsidy will be reduced by 20 per cent. While I appreciate that any cuts will be unwelcome, it is only right that bus subsidy takes a share of the cuts—and this cut is lower than for most other local transport revenue grants. However, I fully accept the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, about the need for buses for the less well-off. That is precisely why we have left the BSOG in place. Following the Chancellor’s announcement of 20 October, my honourable friend Norman Baker spoke to the Confederation of Passenger Transport UK, which represents the bus industry. It was hopeful that, in general, the small reduction in BSOG could be absorbed without fares having to increase.
The Chancellor also announced that the majority of local transport resource funding will now be paid through formula grant. This will simplify funding by moving from around 26 grant streams to just four.
The noble Lord, Lord Davies, touched on the administration of funding. It is for local authorities to decide how this funding is spent according to their priorities. We have also established a Local Sustainable Transport Fund worth £560 million to help local authorities support economic growth and reduce carbon emissions. Even after the spending review, the public funding allocated to buses will remain at significant levels.
The noble Lord, Lord Davies, made important points about the importance of punctuality. He was absolutely right in his explanation. Today's passengers demand and deserve a public transport system that is efficient and modern, and that meets the challenge of using new technology. Some operators have invested in technology that can tell them the location of their buses at any given time. This gives operators a wealth of data to help deliver a good service to passengers, and sharing data brings other benefits. Sharing data with local authorities will help to identify traffic management issues that are making it difficult for buses to run to time, both on a day-to-day basis and in the long term, by benchmarking punctuality and enabling agreement on joint actions to help deliver the punctual services that passengers want. We know that real-time information can make a big difference in encouraging potential passengers to choose the bus. It certainly does for me. That is why we are supporting operators who share data with local authorities so that they can provide real-time information systems, by paying them a higher rate of bus service operators grant.
A further example of technology offering real improvements for passengers is TfL's Countdown system. This provides real-time bus arrival information for passengers throughout London, using electronic signs at bus shelters. From 2011, a new, improved Countdown will be introduced that will show bus arrival predictions for every one of London's 19,000 bus stops. As well as using electronic signs at bus shelters, it will take advantage of a range of information channels, including text messages and the web.
One of the most important technological advances towards a more joined-up transport network is smart and integrated ticketing. We want this new technology to be rolled out more widely across England, so we have provided £20 million of grant funding to the nine biggest English urban areas outside London, and have offered a higher level of bus service operators grant payment to support this. I am pleased to say that some major bus operators are in the process of rolling out smart ticketing across their fleet, but we are eager to see even more achieved, particularly in terms of integration between modes and services. The vision of my honourable friend Norman Baker is for seamless travel on one card throughout the country, whether on the bus in Bristol, the Tube in London or the Metro in Newcastle—a card that lets you hire a bike or join a car club, that can be topped up in shops, online or by phone, and that makes travel easier and cheaper.
I have several questions to answer. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, asked why cuts to bus subsidies are being made. I have talked about the need to reduce the budget deficit, but the saving is 28 per cent lower than that being made from other transport revenue grants, reflecting the benefits that bus services bring to the economy and the environment, as well as the fact that many people rely on bus services to reach education and healthcare.
The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, also asked about consultation with small operators. Representatives of local government and the bus industry in the Reimbursement Working Group were actively consulted throughout the research process and the development of the draft DfT reimbursement guidance. The Confederation of Passenger Transport, the trade organisation for the bus industry that represents both small and large operators, was a member of the working group.
The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, also asked about the Competition Commission's inquiry. The commission is a public body, entirely independent of government, and all of its inquiries are undertaken following a referral by another authority, most often the Office of Fair Trading, which referred this market inquiry in January of this year. It is important to note that the commission's legal role is clearly focused on competition issues rather than on the wider public interest.
Lord Bradshaw
I wonder whether the Minister will pause there for a moment. The Competition Commission is very much concerned with the definition of a market in any field. The commission’s approach to the bus industry has been very narrow indeed—for example, it excludes consideration of the fact that the car is a competitor with the bus. However, I do not believe that that is logical because people often have the choice of using a car or a bus, and not bringing the two together is perverse.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I think that I touched on the point that the Competition Commission is looking at the profitability of the bus industry. However, I will draw all the noble Lord’s points to the attention of my honourable friend Mr Norman Baker.
I return to my answer. On the other hand, this Government are committed to getting the best deal for bus passengers and taxpayers alike. With around £2.5 billion of taxpayers’ money spent on bus services and passengers each year, it is only right, as in every other area of public spending, that we should question whether the bus market is delivering the best service for bus passengers and the best value for the taxpayer.
The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked about quality contracts. He will know that the legislation is still in place and that local authorities are free to use quality contracts when they wish to do so. We are already seeing plans in west and south Yorkshire. We think that partnership is a better approach but, ultimately, it is a matter for the local authorities to make a decision based on their circumstances.
I acknowledge that there are big challenges confronting the industry. Beyond any question, these are testing times for an industry that matters and that makes a difference, but it is an industry that, with our support, can grow and flourish.
Transport: Investment
Earl Attlee Excerpts(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I would like to repeat the Statement made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State in another place.
“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on the Government’s investment plans for our transport networks. During the course of my remarks, honourable Members may find it helpful to refer to the documents that I have placed in the Library of the House and the Vote Office this afternoon.
As my right honourable friend the Chancellor explained last week, the decisions that we have taken to cut waste, end lower-priority programmes and reform the welfare system allow us to invest in Britain’s long-term economic growth and to prioritise transport infrastructure to support economic growth. We have already announced a green light for Crossrail and Tube upgrades, as well as plans for investment in low-carbon vehicles and recharging infrastructure and to take forward work on a high-speed rail network. Work is continuing on evaluation of additional investment in major rail projects and I expect to be in a position to make an announcement to the House in the next few weeks.
Today I can confirm a programme of investment in our crucial strategic road network, managed by the Highways Agency, and in our local transport networks. We will continue to invest in capital maintenance, spending over £5.9 billion over the next four years on unglamorous but important works to maintain the integrity of the network, both strategic and local. We have also allocated over £180 million over the four-year period for high-value minor enhancements to the strategic road network.
We are taking action to reduce the cost of proposed Highways Agency schemes by respecifying, renegotiating with suppliers and improving governance and control. Thanks to these decisions, I can confirm that funds will be available for sustainable upgrades to the strategic network to tackle congestion hot spots, delivering networkwide benefits that provide very high returns on investment.
I can confirm today that the eight Highways Agency major schemes currently under way will be funded to completion and opened to the public in the next two years and I can announce funding for 14 new projects to commence on site by April 2015, including the schemes announced by my right honourable friend the Chancellor last week. These are: the A11 Fiveways dualling; the M4 and M5 junction north of Bristol; the M6 between junctions 5 and 8 in Birmingham; the M62 between junctions 25 and 30 near Leeds; three schemes on the M1 between Derbyshire and Wakefield, from junctions 28 to 31, 32 to 35a and 39 to 42; four schemes near Manchester, from junctions 8 to 12 and from 12 to 15 on the M60, junctions 18 to 20 on the M62, and from Knutsford to Bowden on the A556; improvement of the A23 between Handcross and Warninglid; and the completion of the upgrading of the M25, with a managed motorway scheme for peak-time hard-shoulder running between junctions 23 and 27 and junctions 5 and 7. These essential investments will cut congestion, improve journey times and, most importantly, support economic growth. Every pound that we spend on these schemes will generate, on average, £6 of benefits.
I can also confirm that work will continue on developing a further set of Highways Agency schemes, ready to start in the next spending review period if funds become available. A detailed list is included in the documents to which I referred earlier. There is one last group of four current Highways Agency schemes that will be reviewed to see if they still represent value for money and can be progressed for the next spending review period.
As important as strategic roads are to the national economy, many of the highest value-for-money proposals are those that address the needs of the local road and public transport infrastructure that supports the economies of our cities, towns and rural areas. That is why last week we announced our commitment to completing major local projects worth over £600 million, including measures to improve access to Weymouth in time for the Olympics and acceleration of the work on the Tees Valley bus network, as well as confirming our intention to invest up to £350 million to complete the upgrade of the Tyne and Wear Metro. We also announced our intention to proceed with PFI schemes to extend the Nottingham tram network and deliver sustained improvements in highways maintenance in Sheffield, Hounslow and the Isle of Wight. My department will work urgently with the four local authorities concerned to ensure that we can deliver these schemes within the funding available.
My right honourable friend the Chancellor also announced last week that we will invest more than £900 million over the next four years on new local authority major schemes. They will include: a new bridge over the Mersey at Runcorn, partly funded by tolls; improving access to Leeds station; and extending the Midland Metro tram line from Snow Hill to New Street through Birmingham city centre.
I can confirm today that a further seven major local authority projects have also been given the green light, subject to planning and other approvals. They are: a new bus interchange and associated transport improvements in Mansfield; a new bypass that will take traffic away from communities in Sefton; an integrated package of sustainable transport improvements in Ipswich; major improvements to the M5 at junction 29, east of Exeter, providing access to new housing and employment areas; a bypass to the north of Lancaster, improving connections between the port of Heysham and the M6; improvements on the A57 east of junction 31 on the M1 near Todwick; and a new northern distributor road in Taunton to provide additional cross-town capacity and access to areas of brownfield land. These schemes, worth about £300 million in total, have been selected from a pool of projects with proven business cases. They are listed as ‘supported’ schemes and are shaded in green in the list that I referred to earlier.
But our duty is to ensure that every pound spent is essential. Even with these priority schemes, I expect local authority promoters to work with my department to ensure that every opportunity for cost saving has been taken and every source of alternative contributions fully explored before funding is confirmed in January next year.
While the House will welcome these decisions, Members on all sides will want to know how we are proposing to handle the remaining schemes. The £600 million-plus remaining for additional new projects after the announcements already made demonstrates the importance that we attach to local authority major schemes, but it will not be enough to fund all the schemes proposed by local authorities. I have therefore placed in the Library a list of all currently submitted schemes, including three schemes which previously had conditional approval and which we will now seek to progress to full approval, showing how we propose to categorise them.
For 22 schemes where my department has completed a value-for-money assessment in the past four years, we will invite best and final funding bids from this ‘development pool’—the schemes shaded in amber in the list. Promoters will be challenged by my department to consider the scope of a scheme, its cost, lower-cost alternatives and their ability to contribute more locally. Those who can make the best case are the most likely to receive funding, which will be confirmed by the end of 2011.
Further analysis will be carried out on another 34 schemes for which the department does not currently have an up-to-date assessment to determine whether they can go forward to join the development pool and bid for a share of the £600 million-plus funds available. These schemes are shaded blue on the list; a decision will be made by January 2011. This competitive process will ensure that the greatest possible number of schemes, offering the best value for money, is able to proceed, facilitating economic growth and providing jobs across the country.
Under regional funding allocations, regional and local bodies were encouraged to identify a large number of schemes for longer-term prioritisation, many of which were in very early stages of development with no business cases submitted to the Department for Transport. In the longer term, I want decisions on local transport priorities such as these to be taken out of Whitehall and placed in the hands of local people. My department will work with the emerging local enterprise partnerships and local authorities to identify the best approach to local decision-making on future transport priorities.
I have set out today the decisions that we have made and what they mean for our strategic and local transport networks. The measures that I have described will help to deliver long-term, sustainable and affordable economic growth in this country. The difficult choices that this Government have made have allowed us to invest in the future and I commend this Statement to the House”.
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his reply to the Statement. It was a virtuoso performance, as I have come to expect from the noble Lord. He has very skilfully—and I am grateful to him—avoided the trap of asking detailed questions about the Statement, because it is accompanied by plenty of literature for noble Lords to read tonight.
The noble Lord suggested that my right honourable friend had done a pretty poor job. I think that he has done a really rather good job and that he has the ideal skill set for his current position. The Government’s top priority is deficit reduction. I wonder how much the party opposite would have had to cut the transport budget if it had won the general election.
The noble Lord talked about the difficulty of cutting waste and getting further efficiencies from organisations such as the Highways Agency. He is right; his party has plenty of experience. Why did we mention rail? My right honourable friend’s heart is in the right place. We believe in the future of rail and we are committed to Crossrail, High Speed 2 and other projects. I certainly look forward to debating how we are going to improve our country’s rail system.
The noble Lord talked about adjustments to local authorities’ road safety budgets. It is of course up to local authorities to determine their priorities and how they continue to drive down casualties. We will be monitoring the situation very carefully. During my time in your Lordships’ House, I have always paid the greatest attention to road safety, and that will not change.
The noble Lord mentioned the BSOG. I look forward to the Question for Short Debate that we will be taking shortly.
Lord Bradshaw
My Lords, I am not going to indulge in a lot of criticism, but I will ask a few technical questions, which I hope the Minister will address.
First, much of the paper is made up of words like “appraisal” and “value for money”, yet the system that the Government have adopted—the new approach to transport appraisal—is hopeless. I say this as an economist. The new approach puts value on a lot of valueless things, such as small time savings of a minute, half a minute or less, and it needs bringing up to date. Also, other road users such as bus users or cyclists need to be treated as valuable people. The new approach tends to assume that only car drivers are valuable people and therefore ascribes a lower value of time to those other users.
Secondly, will the Minister tell us something about hard-shoulder running, which is mentioned in the Statement? We do not yet know whether hard-shoulder running has proved to be thoroughly satisfactory from the point of view of both road safety and access by the emergency services to accidents.
Thirdly, I want to mention the PFI scheme, which is referred to in the Statement. Did the Minister see in the Sunday papers that the M6 toll road, which was built by PFI, is in considerable trouble because people will not pay to use a toll road when there is a free road beside it? The only solution, to my mind, is to introduce a system of road charging on our trunk motorways. Otherwise, there will not be many PFI investors.
Fourthly, road maintenance is in a disgraceful condition, and the Government should direct more attention to keeping the road network that we have in good and serviceable order rather than necessarily trying to expand it, because the road network does not work.
Fifthly, there are now lots of utility companies in this country, and all of them have near freedom to dig up the roads when they want and cause massive delays and damage to the road surface. There is supposed to be a system of traffic management, under which the utilities are supposed to apply to the local authority for permission to dig holes. Whenever they want to dig such holes, however, they put up a big sign saying “Emergency”, “Danger” or whatever. That does not mean that they do the job any more quickly, but it allows them to override the provisions in the Transport Act 2005 to regulate the use of the highway.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it fills me with dread when the noble Lord says that he will ask me a few technical questions.
The noble Lord referred to some of the terms of our assessment and things like that. We need to ensure that the schemes with the best value for money, the best benefit to society and the best economic growth are the ones that go forward. The noble Lord has expressed concern many times, in both this Parliament and the previous one, about NATA. We are reviewing that process.
The noble Lord talked about hard-shoulder running. He will be aware of, I think, the M42 where the Highways Agency has trialled hard-shoulder running, which has been shown to work. I understand that the statistics have shown a safety improvement. Because it has been shown to work, there will be more hard-shoulder running schemes.
The noble Lord mentioned the M6 toll road, which is perhaps not getting all the toll income that it should. I remind the noble Lord that the M6 toll road is not PFI-funded but is a private road.
The noble Lord mentioned the condition of local roads, which is a matter of great concern. I think that the ICE’s State of the Nation: Infrastructure 2010 report states that the Highways Agency’s strategic roads are in quite good shape but local roads have serious problems.
Finally, the noble Lord also talked about the utilities. All noble Lords will be aware of the problem of utilities digging up the roads, sometimes in ways that are completely inconvenient. We are aware of that, but I will draw the noble Lord’s question to the attention of my ministerial colleagues.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, since the election the Government have made great play of being a green and low-carbon Government, particularly committed to low-carbon transport. When one reads the Statement, it is extraordinary that it emphasises so many rail projects—most of which are irrelevant because they come under the major scheme—and very few road schemes, especially in the detailed list of 600 schemes, whatever those are. I am surprised. Perhaps the Minister could explain why the Statement mentions no local rail schemes or local tram schemes—except, I think, for one.
There is mention of a few bus schemes. Presumably, those will follow on from the enormous success of the Cambridge guided busway, which I think is two years late and has doubled in cost. Why anybody wants to replicate that around the country, heaven only knows.
There is nothing at all about cycling—no cycle schemes. I understand that the Government have cancelled the cycle training programme organised by Cycling England. Where is the implementation of the Government’s green agenda in this Statement? It seems to be business as usual, going back to the previous Conservative Government.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am delighted to respond to the noble Lord’s points about low-carbon and sustainable transport. Rail schemes will be covered later, as we are not talking about CP5 issues.
The noble Lord referred to problems with the Cambridge scheme. I have just signed off a reply to a Written Question on that, so he will get an Answer shortly. I accept that there are a few problems there.
The noble Lord talked about cycling and the situation with Cycling England. He needs to remember that, as I said the other day, the bikeability scheme will continue.
Lord Walpole
My Lords, I thank the Minister for the A11 Fiveways to Thetford improvement scheme, which will mean that Norwich—I do not know if any of you know where Norwich is—will be joined to the motorway network by dual carriageway to the south for the first time ever.
It is quite extraordinary that the A47 Blofield to North Burlingham scheme is being abandoned, according to page 1. In case the Minister does not know this, a new port has just been built at Yarmouth, so all the roll-on roll-offs will come along on the single carriageway, which will not be nice for them.
I cannot find anything in this document to do with improving the A47 or the A17, which connect Norfolk to the north, the west and the Midlands. In the yellow pages at the back, we find reference to the Norwich northern distributor road and the phrase “if it is worth it”. I can tell noble Lords, as ex-chairman of Norfolk County Council’s highways committee, that it is not worth it. It is not worth it because it was not built 25 years ago. It will be twice as long, twice as useless and will annoy twice as many people. Dear, oh dear—but at least the Government will get Norwich on the motorway.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am glad that the noble Lord is pleased about the A11 Fiveways project as it connects Norwich by dual carriageway. In researching the Statement, I found place names that I had never heard of. It is a little too challenging for me to comment on specific schemes, but parliamentary tools are available to the noble Lord, should he wish to use them.
Lord Higgins
My Lords, what is the definition of a congestion hotspot, as it is difficult to envisage a hotter congestion hotspot than that which exists along the south coast, particularly in the Worthing area? The scheme for a Worthing bypass got past the public inquiry stage something like a decade and a half ago, yet there has still been absolutely no action, particularly by the previous Government. In terms of economic efficiency, for a long while it has been quicker and much easier to drive from the south coast up to the M25, round the M25 and then down the M20 or M3 if one wants to get commercial traffic through the Channel Tunnel or to the Dover ports. Will my noble friend look into this whole issue as, in economic terms, it fully deserves to be included in the programme? No doubt the schemes that have been announced are very welcome, but I should have thought that this scheme ought to be given higher priority than those on the list.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Lord presents me with a difficult problem in responding to a specific scheme about which I know little. However, I will write to him.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, the noble Earl has referred on this and other occasions to local authorities’ ability to respond to these issues, when the Government are failing adequately to fund local government to enable it to do so. He told the House that speed cameras could be funded by local authorities and that this would save money. In actual fact, it has cost the Exchequer money because the income from speed camera fines was more than the cost of the cameras. The Government have pretended that they are protecting pupils in our schools but admitted at the weekend that there is a cut in real terms in the funding per pupil. I have no doubt that the Government will say that local authorities can make up all those shortfalls, including the shortfall in road maintenance for local roads. The Government are hiding behind the shift of responsibility from themselves to local government in order to avoid the flak for policies that will gain public opprobrium.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, as I said, our number one priority is to deal with the deficit. I understand the point that the noble Baroness makes—it is a good point—but local authorities will have to deal with this matter as best they can. They will have to make tough choices, just as my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has had to make tough choices because of the situation that we have inherited.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, I wish to refer to the schemes in the development pool, particularly to the Leeds new generation transport trolleybus experiment, which I am pleased to see is within that pool. I declare an interest as the president and trustee of the British Trolleybus Society.
I point out to the noble Earl that trolleybuses are successfully operating in many countries throughout the world and are a very good, cheap, low-carbon, non-polluting, silent and safe vehicle to operate in the urban environment. Therefore, I hope that this scheme will be left in and that we can have an experiment in Leeds, which I sincerely hope will lead to a further extension of the trolleybus system—a system which unfortunately was destroyed throughout the country, probably by the actions of the oil lobby.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his contribution. By definition, a trolleybus is electrically driven and therefore has zero emissions at the point of use, which makes it a very attractive project. I look forward to researching this project, just out of interest on my part.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
My Lords, would the Minister agree that it is difficult to accept that dealing with the deficit is the number one priority when an announcement is made locally that the £50 million made annually by the congestion charge in west London is likely to be abandoned in December, with all the attendant loss for the capital that will go with it? That sits neither very squarely with dealing with the deficit nor indeed with fairness, when one sees the nature of the people who will be the beneficiaries from the abandonment of the west London congestion area.
I should like to ask something more positive. Nowhere in the document is there anything that gives us great hope of seeing a strategic approach to many of the problems that we face. In particular, I pick up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, about the massive cut coming in the maintenance of roads. Some £200 million is to be taken out every year over the next four years, after a particularly difficult winter. If we have another hard winter, at the rate we are going we will be like a third-rate country. Will the Minister please explain the criterion used to determine how the £200 million should be saved in each of the next four years? Is that to be done by local authorities or has some criterion been set for establishing that?
Secondly, which schemes have been totally abandoned? It is very difficult when reading the documentation to identify whether any have gone. My reading of it is that some have gone all the way. Will he please place a list in the Library?
Thirdly, are the Government giving any thought to alternative means of raising funds to reinvest in the road transport system? For example, a number of parts of the country were exploring the possibility of introducing congestion charging—not solely to raise funds but to reduce congestion—and such schemes would have been helpful in providing funding for reinvestment in other parts of road transport. Has that been totally abandoned by this Government? Does the noble Earl have any views on how they might explore alternative ways in which money may be raised?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the congestion charge is not my responsibility but the responsibility of the Mayor of London.
On the difficulty of local maintenance, I shall write to the noble Lord. On the Highways Agency, it can do a number of things to better manage the strategic road network. It can build on the investment of the previous Government in better systems, to make sure that maintenance takes place at the right point—not too early and not too late.
As for the noble Lord’s question about local authority congestion charging, I should say that we have no intention of introducing a national scheme.
The road schemes to be cancelled because there is no foreseeable future for them are: the A1 Leeming to Barton scheme; the A19 Seaton Burn interchange; the A19 Moor Farm scheme; the A21 Kippings Cross scheme; the A21 Flimwell to Robertsbridge scheme; the A21 Baldslow scheme and the A47 Blofield to North Burlingham scheme.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, before the general election, visiting Conservative spokesmen who came to the north-east spoke warmly about the prospect of dualling the A1 north of Newcastle. Will he confirm that not only is there now no prospect of that happening for the foreseeable future but even smaller improvements to that road are not likely to take place as far ahead as one can see? Will he also bear in mind, when he talks about local authorities undertaking capital works, that the capital programme of local authorities is to be cut by 45 per cent?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, there is a slight glimmer of hope for the A1 north of Newcastle. We are considering whether it should be part of the strategic road network. However, this does not mean that it will be dualled any time soon.
Building Regulations (Review) Bill [HL]
Earl Attlee Excerpts(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, on introducing this Private Member’s Bill. Fire safety is clearly a matter of great concern to us all and I know that the noble Lord has taken a considerable personal interest in the subject. I am grateful for the way in which he has carefully explained the background to his Bill. He spoke movingly of the victims and the increasing vulnerability of the population, a point also strongly made by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith.
I shall not get drawn into a dog fight about the Budget because the noble Lord’s point is a technical one about how we can best reduce casualties. Fire safety strategies are starting to succeed: fire deaths in the home in England have halved since the 1980s and the long-term trend is downwards. However, there are still too many. In 2008, 213 people perished in accidental fires in the home—and, of course, one fire death is one too many. We all remember the events of 3 July last year and the devastating fire in Lakanal House, Camberwell, in which six residents tragically lost their lives; and then, on 6 April this year, firefighters James Shears and Alan Bannon died in the line of duty at Shirley Towers in Southampton. I join many noble Lords in their fulsome tributes to those in our fire service who have to take great risks indeed. As a noble Lord pointed out, they go to work and do not know what is going to happen that day; it is a complete mystery.
Recent statistics suggest that the long-term downward trend is beginning to plateau. We are anxious to see how deaths can be reduced still further and we will not allow the status quo to obtain; we will constantly look to see how we can reduce casualties. I am sure that that is exactly what the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, seeks to do with his Bill.
Since 1997, the key strategy to reducing preventable fire deaths has been through community fire safety activities. This involves efforts to reduce the incidence of fire through education, information and publicity. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, made important observations in this area, a key one of which was the need to regularly test smoke alarms. The installation of properly maintained smoke alarms in every household is at the centre of these efforts as they provide vital early warning of fire, enabling people to escape.
The Fire Kills campaign has, for some time now, conducted high profile campaigns promoting smoke alarms which have proved very successful. While building regulations have an important role to play, this kind of campaign benefits the whole population, not only the occupants of newly built properties. Ownership of smoke alarms in England now stands at 85 per cent of households and they can be purchased relatively cheaply. We are seeking to raise awareness of their value as evidence suggests that those who do not have them are often in the groups that are most at risk from fire. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, spoke about how devastating fires can be to individuals and important charitable activities in Essex.
Initially a freeze was imposed on all government awareness campaigns while their effectiveness was assessed. However, I am pleased to say that the Cabinet Office’s Efficiency and Reform Group has recognised that the Fire Kills media campaign delivers measurable public safety benefits and we are, therefore, continuing to support this important and effective programme. The national campaign developed by DCLG will work with the fire and rescue services and the commercial and voluntary sectors to seek out new opportunities, creating hooks that can be utilised at the local level.
In these difficult economic times, an important part of the Government’s strategy for financial growth is to support business by adopting a deregulatory policy. The Government will regulate to achieve a policy objective only if it can be shown that regulation is the last resort. In addition, the one-in, one-out rule for regulation means that when the Government introduce a new regulation, they must first identify an existing one to remove so that the number of regulations does not increase. This groundbreaking approach makes it clear that all non-regulatory routes must be exhausted before any new regulation is brought in.
The Government are determined to make it easier to build the homes that this country needs. Appropriate building standards, applied sensibly, help both builders and communities, but they can be effective only if they are easier to understand. That is why we are committed to simplifying the process for housebuilders to meet the standards that communities rightly demand. This work to cut red tape will complement the review of building regulations launched by my colleague Andrew Stunell earlier this year.
We have called for views on how building regulations can be improved, added to or slimmed down. We have also asked for suggestions as to how we can deliver even better levels of compliance in the future. We will listen to these ideas and those from the Cabinet Office’s Your Freedom and my own department’s Cut Red Tape exercises. We plan to announce the results around the end of the year. It has been suggested that there should be greater requirement for sprinkler protection in building regulations for residential and domestic buildings and for public and commercial buildings. These comments will be given due consideration, but there is little new evidence to suggest a need for change.
I am well aware of calls for the building regulations to be amended to require sprinklers to be provided in new dwellings and other new domestic buildings. We recognise the significant role that they can play in life and property protection and in public safety. We do not consider that it is necessarily for the Government to dictate to the business sector how to manage its business risks. If the fire industry or fire and rescue service consider that greater fire protection would be good for UK businesses, they should take the case directly to building owners rather than to Government.
There are already provisions in the building regulations for the use of sprinkler protection. Part B deals with fire safety and Requirement B3 covers internal fire spread within a building. This already sets out that, subject to the size and intended use of the building, suitable fire suppression systems such as sprinklers and sub-division by fire-resisting construction should be provided. The Department for Communities and Local Government also issues guidance in the form of Approved Document B, which sets out what is considered to be a reasonable provision to satisfy the requirements of Part B. Sprinkler protection for certain non-residential buildings has been included within this guidance for some time to cover those premises where such a provision is considered proportionate to the risk to people in and around the building from fire.
Provisions for sprinkler protection in domestic and residential buildings are also given in the latest edition of Approved Document B which was published in 2006. This included provision for sprinklers to be installed in tall blocks of flats over 30 metres in height and included their use as an option in residential care homes. This option offers an alternative to an otherwise more onerous set of standards for care homes introduced at the same time.
This is just one of a range of measures that can be varied where sprinkler systems are installed. The benefits that such installations can offer are explained in the approved document and the guidance is structured so that those benefits are realised in reduced construction costs.
The changes made in 2006 drew on an extensive four-year research project looking at residential and domestic sprinklers from both an effectiveness and cost-benefit perspective. Since then, the previous Government also commissioned a project looking at the installation of sprinklers as an active protection measure where large numbers of houses were being built at one time. It had been suggested at the time that sprinklers might provide an option to address the fire and community safety needs of areas such as the Thames Gateway and perhaps avoid the need for increased fire and rescue services. The study concluded that this was not a cost-effective solution. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, also referred to that and I will read what she said carefully in Hansard.
Noble Lords will appreciate that, given the work that has already been done in this area and the absence of compelling new evidence, the Government are reluctant to commit more time and energy revisiting the same question. However, we note the news that the Chief Fire Officers Association has commissioned a further review, funded by industry, to update and expand the available evidence base. In answer to my noble friend Lord Tope, officials from the Department for Communities and Local Government are fully engaged with the project team working on this new review and have offered their assistance in developing as robust an analysis as possible. We await the results of that work with interest.
We will continue to monitor the situation and the effectiveness of the various strands of fire safety policy. I accept that we are likely to return to this issue and we recognise that the issues listed in the noble Lord’s Bill are among those matters that are likely to be addressed. However, I question whether it is either wise or prudent for any Government to commit themselves to a specific timeframe to commence a review, given the inevitable need to respond to changing priorities. I also question whether it is not more appropriate for the fire protection industry and the insurance sector to consider some of these matters for themselves.
The noble Lord, Lord Harrison, mentioned the £7 billion cost of fire. In 2004, the total cost of fire in England and Wales was estimated at £7 billion, but it is important to understand that this figure incorporates all costs associated with fire. The consequences of fire are just one component of that figure; they were estimated at £2.25 billion. The £7.03 billion figure includes the costs of providing fire protection and fire and rescue service interventions. Introducing the requirement for more fire protection in buildings could only increase that overall bill.
In his interesting intervention the noble Lord, Lord Best, properly identified some difficulties involved with installing and, most important, maintaining sprinkler systems. I hope that his organisation will contribute to the study. In response to my noble friend Lord Tope—I think that I have touched on this—Andrew Stunell will make a statement around the end of this year to set out his intentions for the building regulations. It will include plans relating to electrical safety.
In one of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, he asked about the projects on low-cost sprinklers and on the cost-effectiveness for high-risk premises. I understand that both of those projects were essentially complete when the noble Lord was still in post and that there is now an expectation that further work in that respect is being taken forward by the Chief Fire Officers Association and the fire protection industry.
Many noble Lords touched on the issue of costs. There appears to be some doubt about how much domestic sprinkler systems cost. Estimates vary greatly, from less than £1,000 to well over £3,000. Of course, I accept that costs are likely to fall with volume. However, if we were to build 150,000 homes in a year and assume a typical unit cost of £2,000, that would cost the country £300 million every year. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Hoyle, on the costs that we consider for human life, we have to look for the most cost-effective technical solution and for where the greatest risk lies, which is not necessarily in new buildings.
The cost of carrying out the work set out in the Bill should not be ignored. I refer to the earlier work that was commissioned by the previous Government to look at sprinkler protection in areas of rapid growth such as the Thames Gateway. I understand that this comparatively simple project cost in the order of £100,000 of taxpayers’ money. In my opinion, to commit many more times this sum to go over old ground so soon would be an irresponsible use of public resources.
The noble Lord, Lord Harrison, mentioned the experience in Vancouver. While experience from other countries is obviously valuable information, we must consider the level of uncertainty of the statistics derived from the comparatively small sample size.
Many noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, talked about timber-framed buildings. This is an obvious problem. The new Government are aware of the concerns about this type of building and will tackle them head-on. We intend to work with industry to establish whether there is evidence of specific risks associated with timber-framed buildings and how best to address them. We are also actively awaiting a London Assembly report on this issue, and we will look at its conclusions carefully.
The Government take fire safety issues very seriously. We all understand the injury, the heartache and the damage that fire causes, and we are keen to explore new and innovative ways to reduce the toll. At present, however, we must focus on our priorities. While we agree with the desire to answer the questions set out in the Bill, we must express strong reservations about the provisions in it of a statutory commitment for the Government.
Cyclists: Deaths
Earl Attlee Excerpts(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, reported casualty statistics do not record the type of injury or whether a cycle helmet was worn. The Transport Research Laboratory’s published review of on-road cycle helmet effectiveness, dated 15 December 2009, is available online. The report estimates that 10 per cent to 16 per cent of fatalities could have been prevented and that 30 per cent of serious injures mitigated or prevented if cyclists had worn a helmet that was a good fit and was worn correctly.
Lord Janner of Braunstone
I thank the noble Earl for his Answer. I am sure the whole House will join me in congratulating Mayor Boris Johnson on launching the Barclays bike hire scheme, which has recently had its millionth journey. However, does the noble Earl share my concern for the safety of the scheme, which has placed an additional 5,000 bicycles on our roads in London, with most journeys taking place without a helmet? How are the Government planning to ensure that the wearing of helmets continues to increase, especially as Boris’s bikes come with no helmets and you normally own a helmet only if you own the bicycle that you are riding?
Earl Attlee
The noble Lord raises an important point. The Boris bikes have indeed been very successful and the accident rate has been very low. The noble Lord correctly identifies an obvious difficulty. To be effective, the helmet has to be a good fit and be worn effectively. The only solution is for the rider to bring his own helmet. That presents obvious difficulties for an ad hoc journey but the statistics show that the benefits of bicycling far outweigh any risks, in a ratio of 20:1, even taking into account the current rates of helmet-wearing.
Baroness Knight of Collingtree
My Lords, do cyclists have to pass a test of any kind anywhere prior to taking up their cycling? Is it not the case that many of them seem quite unaware that it is not legal even to pedal the wrong way up a one-way street or to sail past a red light?
Earl Attlee
The noble Baroness raises an important point. No test is required to ride a bicycle. However, the Bikeability instructors are properly qualified. The enforcement of traffic offences—and riding a bike illegally is a traffic offence—is an operational matter for the police.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, there will be obvious concern about the effect of the proposed abolition of Cycling England on safety. Perhaps the Minister will wish to comment on that. Apart from the wearing of the helmet, a number of measures can of course be taken to reduce deaths and serious injuries among pedal cyclists. Local government plays a fundamental role in that area. Assuming that it will still have sufficient staff numbers in future to enable it to play a continuing, meaningful role in road safety, what assessment did the Department for Transport make of the impact on making further improvements in road safety for pedal cyclists of the future removal of the ring-fencing of nearly all local authority revenue grants, at a time when local authority budgets are being reduced? Did the Department for Transport make such an assessment at all and, if so, what did it show?
Earl Attlee
I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving me the opportunity to explain the situation regarding Cycling England. The noble Lord will remember that the Bikeability project is part of Cycling England. The functions of Cycling England will be absorbed into the Department for Transport. However, the Bikeability project will continue. Funding for it is available until at least the end of this Parliament. As for the issue of local authorities, we believe in localism but it is inconceivable that they will not promote bicycling, because of its obvious benefits.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his comments on the health benefits of cycling which, as he said, far outweigh any risks in a ratio of 20:1. Does he agree that any siren calls for making helmet wearing compulsory should be resisted, particularly in view of the evidence that in Australia, when helmet wearing was made compulsory, some 30 per cent or more of regular cycle users stopped riding their bikes?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am grateful for the noble Lord’s comments. We have no intention of making the wearing of helmets compulsory because it can be extremely difficult to enforce with the youngsters who are our targets. If we can get youngsters to wear helmets from an early age, we hope that they will carry on wearing them as adults. Wearing rates are, slowly but surely, increasing and we have no plans to interfere with that process.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland
My Lords, this question is about brain injuries and deaths. I am sure the Minister will agree that rehabilitation units that treat those who have been injured can make the difference between new life and living death for those people hurt and their families. Will the Minister, although he is a transport Minister, convey to his health colleagues the need to ensure that specialist units dealing with those with brain injury are protected in the reconstructed health service?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I take on board the noble Baroness’s point about brain injuries. They are devastating and often mean that the victim can no longer take a full part in society. Obviously I answer for Her Majesty’s Government, and I shall raise the noble Baroness’s point with health Ministers.
Railways: North-west
Earl Attlee Excerpts(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Sheldon
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to invest in rail services in the north-west.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the Government’s priority is deficit reduction. However, current proposals include route electrification between Blackpool North, Manchester, Liverpool and Wigan. We also plan to lengthen trains and platforms where necessary to accommodate patronage growth. North-west stations have been highlighted for improvement through the National Stations Improvement and Access for All programmes. In Manchester, the priority is to extend Metrolink. In addition to work under way, a further £170 million extension plan was announced in July.
Lord Sheldon
My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for that reply. At present, the best rail service between London and Manchester is two hours and seven minutes. By 2014, the journey from London to Paris will be under two hours. It is a longer journey, but it will be very much faster than the service to Manchester. There is a big chain between these two. Although there will eventually be a faster journey between London and Manchester, when will that be? How long do we have to wait for that?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the coalition Government are committed to high-speed rail. We hope to have parliamentary approval for the hybrid Bill in 2015 and work will start shortly thereafter.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
I am sure the Minister will be aware that Network Rail published its northern route utilisation strategy on 8 October, which contains some very encouraging figures for passenger growth in the north of England. For example, as regards Liverpool and Manchester, it estimates that by 2019 growth will exceed 30 per cent and may rise as high as 45 per cent. Will he give an absolute assurance that the Government will honour the comment that he made about electrification despite the horrors that may be in the Chancellor’s statement this week?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, we welcome the work carried out by Network Rail in compiling its route utilisation strategy. It provides a valuable input into the work to be undertaken by the Department for Transport to determine the outputs the railway needs to deliver during 2014-19 and beyond. My comments about electrification remain.
Lord Bradshaw
My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is disgraceful that, after 13 years of Labour rule, 10 transferred coaches have been sent to the northern franchise, 182 were promised in the rolling stock plan and, that under a Labour Government, an order for 200 multiple unit trains was cancelled? Can he please press on his right honourable friend the Secretary of State the need to pay attention to the great northern cities of this country and actually do something for them?
Earl Attlee
The noble Lord makes important points. The noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, talked about increased passenger demand in the north-west, and Manchester in particular has some serious problems. However, capacity is constrained by the infrastructure—we need to do something about the northern hub—as well as by the rolling stock.
The Lord Bishop of Blackburn
My Lords, given the areas of multiple deprivation in east Lancashire and the current emphasis on localism, will the Minister consider giving his strong support for plans to re-establish the link between Colne in east Lancashire and Skipton? Will he also consider opening the Todmorden curve to passenger traffic, thus making it possible to improve the links between Burnley and Manchester?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the Government support proposals for the Todmorden curve and are providing help and advice to local authorities working with Network Rail and the train operator to develop a proposal that has a business case and can be funded through local and regional sources. On the general point about reopening lines, we would be happy to work with a local authority promoter which sought to establish whether reopening a line was the best way to meet local transport needs. However, I emphasise the need for a good business case.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, did the Minister notice that the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, as a loyal supporter of the coalition, failed to mention the very great investment indeed made by the last Labour Government in the west coast main line, which has raised the performance of the train service to the level it has reached today? Does he also accept that while we welcome his statement today about electrification in the north-west, he knows that the shortage of rolling stock is an acute issue, and that this relates to investment decisions on Thameslink in southern England? The two are related because of surplus rail stock that is destined to go to the north-west. Will he confirm that he will take that on board, because there is not much point in producing an infrastructure if you do not have the rolling stock to roll on it?
Earl Attlee
The noble Lord made several points, many of which were correct. I want to make it quite clear where we are on electrification. In 2009, it was announced that the following lines in the north-west would be electrified: Manchester to Liverpool via Chat Moss, which we plan to complete by 2013; Liverpool to Wigan North Western by 2014; Manchester to Bolton and Preston by 2016; and Preston to Blackpool North by 2015. That is what we are planning to do.
Lord Peston
Apart from the rise in the use of trains, which is welcome, is it at all possible that we might actually have some trains running at the weekend? Most people visiting this country are under the impression that we have become a totally third-world nation at the weekend. By the time we get to the Olympics, I think that people would like some trains in order to get to the stadiums.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, one of the issues that many of us who are interested in rail transport are particularly concerned about is the business of possessions for weekend engineering works and their overrunning. We pay a lot of attention to this and we look forward to Sir Roy McNulty’s report on value for money and efficiencies in the rail industry, which the Secretary of State is due to receive early next year.
Roads: Cyclists
Earl Attlee Excerpts(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Palmer
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that cyclists abide by the Highway Code.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the Government support a combination of information, education, training and enforcement to ensure that cyclists abide by the Highway Code. The enforcement of cycling offences is a matter for individual chief officers of police. The hazards caused by cyclists who break road traffic laws are recognised by chief officers and action is taken where offences are detected. The Government support action taken by the police to deter and reduce the number of cycling offences.
Lord Palmer
My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for that slightly unexciting reply, but does he not agree that it is a scandal how remarkably few prosecutions are made against cyclists who do not adhere to the Highway Code—most especially driving on pavements?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Lord. I know that all noble Lords are extremely concerned about that type of offending. It adversely affects noble Lords, because they tend to be a little bit older than the average member of the population.
Baroness Sharples
Can my noble friend tell us how many successful prosecutions there have been against cyclists who have gone against red lights?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the short answer is no. The reason is that most offences are dealt with by fixed penalties—the penalty is about £30—but detailed records are not kept because that would not be a good use of public funds.
Lord Haskel
Does the Minister accept that most cyclists abide by the Highway Code purely out of a sense of self-preservation from the motorists who do not?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it is most important that every one reads the Highway Code from time to time, in order that they understand their obligations as road users.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I ride a bike—in fact, I was riding one this morning—so I declare that interest, but, in balance, I also drive a car. Let us get the issue of bike problems into some kind of perspective. What percentage of the road accidents in which our fellow citizens died last year were due to lawbreaking by cyclists, and why are the Government abolishing Cycling England, which seeks to train cyclists?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, we will have to wait for the comprehensive spending review later next week to answer that question.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, I speak as a motorist and a cyclist who seeks perfection in both areas and fails miserably a lot of the time. Does the Minister agree that there is a real difference between traffic offences committed by cyclists or anyone else and breaches of the Highway Code? Simply breaching the Highway Code may be impolite, foolish or dangerous, but it does not necessarily amount to an offence. Does he agree that cyclists are far more vulnerable than drivers of cars, lorries, et cetera?
Earl Attlee
I agree with my noble friend and, returning to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, the reason why the police concentrate more on motorists is because they cause more serious accidents than cyclists.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, the Minister said that the Government are keen to educate people about cycling. Could he start with one of his own quangos, the Carbon Trust, which has just put out a circular to its members saying that they must not cycle to or from work or between meetings, especially on Boris bikes, because it has not been able to do a risk assessment on the quality and safety of Boris bikes?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Lord will be fully aware that this Government are concerned about the overapplication of health and safety regulations.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
Does the Minister have any information on how many accidents occur at dusk and at night to cyclists who have no lights or high-visibility jackets?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it is a legal requirement to have a rear light, a rear reflector and a front light. It is not a legal requirement to carry reflective clothing, but the Highway Code recommends that proper clothes—reflective clothes at night and fluorescent clothes during the day—are worn at all times when riding a bike.
Viscount Bridgeman
Will the Minister be assured that the All-Party Group on Cycling, of which I have the honour to be a member, sets an example for all to follow?
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, will the Minister speak urgently to the Mayor of London? A consequence of his cycle hire scheme is a dramatic increase in the number of cyclists on the roads in London not in the correct attire, with no helmets or reflective clothing. Such circumstances dramatically increase the risk of serious injury or even death.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it is very easy to overestimate the risk of accidents when riding a bicycle. The health benefits of riding a bicycle are very great indeed. For every year of life we lose to a cycling accident, we gain 20 years of life. Therefore, the bike hire scheme has great health benefits.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, may I put in a plea for the pedestrian? A lot has been said about cyclists, but is the Minister aware that the group most vulnerable to cyclists is pedestrians? The reason why there are not so many accidents is that pedestrians have to jump out of the way on pedestrian crossings and when the lights are green for pedestrians on red lights. It is a scandal.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I fully understand where the noble and learned Baroness is coming from, but in 2009 no pedestrians were killed, 66 were seriously injured and 14,000 suffered slight injuries on our roads. This is a 21 per cent reduction on all pedestrian casualties hit by cyclists compared to the 1994-98 average.
Lord Brookman
Following on from the previous question, I recall that this House, in which there are a lot of new faces, had a solution: the noble Baronesses, Lady Sharples and Lady Trumpington. Give them the legislation, and they will sort the problem.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I think it is a little bit late for the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, to start riding a pushbike.