Drones: Code of Conduct

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Tuesday 25th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Judd, for securing this evening’s debate and other noble Lords for their contribution. Your Lordships will note that the question is about civilian as well as military use of these aircraft and the House will be aware that I answer for all of Her Majesty’s Government. I share the regret of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, about the number of speakers and am grateful for his very measured contribution to our debate.

First, we should understand that we are talking about remotely piloted aircraft systems, or RPAS. We are most certainly not talking about “drones” as exemplified by the “doodle bugs” of the World War II era. The location of the cockpit does not change the essential function of a professional, qualified pilot in terms of his or her direct responsibility for the safety and overall management of a flight. I do not foresee a situation where a human’s ultimate responsibility for the safe flight of a remotely piloted aircraft will be replaced by fully autonomous technologies.

I will follow the split of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and cover civilian RPAS operations first. These are closely regulated by the Civil Aviation Authority and are treated in the same manner as that of an equivalent manned aircraft. This applies to all aspects of unmanned aviation, from the initial design and construction, or airworthiness, through to the safety requirements of how it is flown and operated. This viewpoint is shared internationally. We certainly have no intention of denying access to UK airspace—we just want to keep it safe.

Small unmanned aircraft are those under 20 kilograms weight, flown at short range and always within the sight of the person flying them. These are overseen to a lesser, but proportionate, extent by the CAA but, in certain circumstances, such as for commercial use, a permission is needed. They are also subject to the Data Protection Act and the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act. The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, talked about intrusion. He will be aware that the activities of Google also cause similar concerns and that this concern is not unique to RPAS.

The House should not overlook the technological importance of the growth of the remotely piloted aircraft sector. For example, systems which can be used to detect other aircraft could, in time, greatly assist all pilots, in the same way that aircraft transponders have contributed to safety across the sector. I would point out that the UK’s ASTRAEA consortium is at the forefront of international efforts in this field. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, told the House about a wide range of uses including anti-poaching operations. Noble Lords will have read the article in this week’s Sunday Times about the use of RPAS to assess the health of a vineyard in France—a very commendable use, I would suggest. Surely, this is the start of yet another technical revolution facilitated by the ubiquitous modern electronics. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, is right of course when he says that the potential for their development is considerable.

The overall objective of the Government and the European Commission is to enable the full and safe integration of remotely piloted aircraft into the total aviation system so that they share the same airspace as their manned counterparts. With UK and EU input, the International Civil Aviation Organization is currently developing RPA guidance material, due for publication in autumn 2014, with standards expected about two years later. Within Europe, the Commission’s RPAS roadmap, published on Thursday 20 June 2013, is aimed at an incremental integration of RPAS into European airspace from 2016. To achieve this, there are a number of significant technical challenges to be overcome, primarily concerned with ensuring the RPAS is airworthy and has the capability to avoid collisions. However, until the technological and regulatory hurdles can be safely overcome, operations of larger remotely piloted aircraft will continue to be restricted to segregated airspace. For these reasons, therefore, my view is that there is already a suitable framework in place to regulate the operation of civilian remotely piloted aircraft and that no additional codes of conduct are required.

I now turn to the military element, which I suspect is of more concern to the House. Although the MoD operates a number of unmanned aircraft systems, Reaper is the UK’s only armed remotely piloted aircraft system and its only operational use is in support of UK and coalition ground forces in Afghanistan. Although predominantly used for intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance tasks, the aircraft is also armed with precision-guided weapons, which offer an attack capability if needed by ground commanders. The system is operated by highly trained, skilled and qualified RAF pilots in accordance with the principles of international humanitarian law and the UK’s rules of engagement, which are identical to those used by crews of manned combat aircraft. That applies even for joint operations with US forces.

The UK’s selection and prosecution of all targets is based on rigorous scrutiny. Targets are always positively identified as legitimate military objectives and every effort is made to ensure that harm to civilians or damage to civilian property is minimised. The Government have a longstanding policy of not divulging the detail of our rules of engagement; that would give our adversaries useful information about how and when we might choose to use lethal force. I also gently remind the House that the pilots operate under military discipline. Similarly, the RAF has well established command, control and supervisory frameworks that I have seen on exercise. I do not believe that anything extra needs to be provided for.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, suggested that the UK military has 500 RPAS. However, there are currently only five armed RPAS. Of course, rather smaller RPAS are used for tactical surveillance. The use of remotely piloted aircraft systems is no different from other airborne or indeed ground-based attack systems. The only difference from a traditional aircraft is that their cockpits are on the ground. The systems can only launch their weapons when specifically commanded to do so by the pilot. They do not have the capability to launch any weapons autonomously. In addition, there are no future plans to replace military pilots with fully autonomous systems. I know that that is a matter of great concern to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, and the whole House. The MoD has no intention of developing any weapons systems to be used without human involvement. Although the Royal Navy has defensive systems such as Phalanx that can be used in an automatic mode, to protect personnel and ships from enemy threats like missiles, a human operator oversees the entire engagement. Furthermore, all our remotely piloted aircraft systems used in Afghanistan to protect troops on the ground are controlled by highly trained military pilots. There are no plans to replace skilled military personnel with fully autonomous systems.

[Lord Judd]

I am extremely grateful to the Minister for this reply. Could he clarify what is meant by “no intention” to deploy these vehicles other than with human involvement? What does human involvement amount to? How much automatic action in terms of analysis, identifying a target and deciding to hit it will be left to the device in future vehicles once they are launched?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the answer is currently none. It requires human involvement to launch the missile at the target. RPAS cannot currently engage a target without being commanded to do so by the pilot on the ground.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, implied that communication with and control of an RPAS could be lost in the event of an electromagnetic pulse. If that was the case, the RPAS would probably lose all its capability, just like any other aircraft.

The noble Lord touched on the perceived disadvantages of the military use of RPAS. As of 20 June, the UK Reaper RPAS has employed 394 precision-guided weapons. There has been only one known incident that resulted in the deaths of civilians. On 25 March 2011, an attack on two pick-up trucks resulted in the destruction of a significant quantity of explosives and the deaths of two insurgents but, sadly, four Afghanistan civilians were also killed. In line with current ISAF procedures, an ISAF investigation was conducted to establish if any lessons could be learned or if any errors in operational procedures could be identified. In that case, the report concluded that the actions of the Reaper crew had been in accordance with extant procedures and rules of engagement.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, asked if the UK had conducted any targeted killings and whether the UK uses the ICRC definitions of combatants and civilians. Her Majesty’s Armed Forces will engage the enemy in accordance with international humanitarian law and the UK rules of engagement. The necessity and legality of engaging the target does not depend on the means of doing so. The noble Lord stated that we either uphold the rule of law or we do not. He is right. I can confirm that Her Majesty’s Government uphold the rule of law. How the US Government conduct themselves is not a matter for me to comment on and I have already touched on joint US/UK operations.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, talked about the remote warrior. Our experience of operating the Reaper remotely piloted aircraft system in Afghanistan suggests that Reaper aircrew are just as if not more connected to the situation on the ground when compared to operators of other aircraft types. That is because they fly missions over Afghanistan for years at a time and not in short-duration rotations. Remotely piloted aircraft can loiter over areas of interest for a considerable time, providing that much-valued intelligence picture. I remind the House that surveillance is their primary role. Should an attack be requested, their persistence enables them to assess a target in detail and select an optimum time for attack that minimises the risk of civilian casualties. Indeed, because of this increased awareness of the ground situation, enabled by the connectivity that a ground-based cockpit offers, there have been many occasions when crews have elected not to fire a weapon.

I will say a few words about the ASTRAEA project. ASTRAEA—Autonomous Systems Technology Related Airborne Evaluation and Assessment—is a UK industry-led consortium focusing on the development of technologies, systems and procedures with a specific emphasis on unmanned aircraft systems. The consortium is led by seven UK companies—AOS, BAE Systems, Cassidian, Cobham, Qinetiq, Rolls-Royce and Thales—plus a further 70 SMEs and universities. The aim of the programme is to enable the routine use of UAS in all classes of airspace without the need for restrictive or specialised conditions of operation. The £62 million programme was split into two phases, each lasting three years. Phase 2 ended on 31 March 2013. Some 50% of the funding came from industry partners, with the remainder from government—the TSB and the regions. Future activity under the ASTRAEA brand is the subject of ongoing discussion within the consortium.

I welcome this debate, which has explored the application and use of remotely piloted aircraft. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, is right to question the implications of any new and growing technology such as this. To reiterate: RPAS are aircraft under human control. The very clear regulations and guidance that apply to aircraft also apply to RPAS. I am confident that no further code of conduct is required.

House adjourned at 7.57 pm.

Airports: London

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Monday 10th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Spicer]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they plan to expedite the announcement of their policy on the future of London airports.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the long-term question of aviation capacity is a matter of national importance. It is vital that the Airports Commission has sufficient time to carry out a thorough investigation of the options, and to build consensus around its long-term recommendations. The timetable set for its final report, by the summer of 2015, will allow this to take place, and will enable a stable, long-term solution to be found.

[Lord Spicer]

My Lords, does not the recommendation in the report of the Transport Select Committee that a rapid decision be made in the go-ahead for a third runway at Heathrow count for anything?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we welcome the report of the Transport Select Committee but do not necessarily agree with all its conclusions. It is important that we have a solution that will withstand a change of government. The Crossrail and HS2 projects can withstand a change of government. We need a policy for Heathrow and the London hub that can also withstand a change of government.

[Lord Soley]

The noble Earl wants a thorough inquiry, but we have been having thorough inquiries since the Maplin inquiry, which was about 50 years ago, so it would be quite nice if we could finish this. Had the Government taken on board the last Government’s position, we would be there now, which would be helpful. I put it to the Minister that there is a danger of an unconsidered policy developing on this, since we now have six London airports with seven runways—or seven airports, if you include the newly renamed London Oxford Airport. I do not know how far this is going to go on until we actually get a proper policy.

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord knows very well that the issue is not about point-to-point capacity with the various London airports; it is about hub capacity.

[Lord Bradshaw]

On the subject of hub capacity, is it not relevant to think in terms of which airlines bring people into Heathrow who require the access to a hub? Many airports cater for people who are coming to the United Kingdom for short or long stays, and they do not need to interline. The announcement this morning of Birmingham Airport’s massive expansion, and the fact that it is going to be 35 minutes from the centre of London, should also be taken into account.

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend makes many very good points, and I am sure that the Airport Commission will take them into consideration.

[Lord Clinton-Davis]

I speak as the life president of BALPA. The inordinate delay in making a decision about the siting of a major airport in London can only result in benefiting Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt. Any alternative to Heathrow is bound to take a huge amount of time to come into operation, whereas Heathrow, properly adapted, is ready now. Is it not the most obvious choice for any Government to enable them to make a speedy decision, which will not result in giving an advantage to other airports in Europe?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, Heathrow has one fundamental disadvantage: there are 220,000 who live within the 57 decibel noise contour, making it a very difficult problem to overcome.

[Lord Mawhinney]

My Lords, in his initial Answer, my noble friend talked about the importance of taking three years over this and the fact that a decision would not come until just after the next general election. Is he aware that the Government, who keep pressing for more economic growth, are in danger of being charged with dithering, given that a speedy resolution to this will do more to promote economic growth than many of the other things that we all read about in the newspapers?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, there is no point in making a decision that will not stand a change in government.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall]

My Lords, does the noble Earl agree that one of the difficulties of this open-ended discussion, which has, as my noble friend Lord Soley has said many times, been going on for a very long time, is that a lot of areas are under constant threat and the blight that occurs in them is very damaging to the communities that live there? Is it possible for the Government at least to start ruling some things out, rather than leaving every option on the table?

[Earl Attlee]

As usual, the noble Baroness makes a very good point. The Airports Commission has been charged with reporting by December this year to rule out certain options.

[Lord Higgins]

Given that the legislation for a hub at Maplin Sands went through with comparatively few problems back in the mid-1970s, is there not a case for looking at that site again?

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Airports Commission will look at all sites including Maplin Sands or the Thames Estuary airport, and will then come up with a shortlist of which options need to be looked at in greater detail.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

The Minister has shown great sagacity in indicating that there may be a change in government. His answers thus far have indicated that one of the two parties that form the coalition votes on one great negative—namely, no to the third runway at Heathrow—and intends to present itself before the next election with absolutely no advance in policy whatever.

[Earl Attlee]

It was the party opposite that came up with a policy for a third runway at Heathrow with no consensus and therefore it did not survive a change in government.

[Lord Oxburgh]

My Lords, can the Minister assure the House that any decision on the future of London’s airports will be taken in the light of a coherent and integrated transport policy for this country, involving both rail and road?

[Earl Attlee]

Absolutely, my Lords. The Airports Commission is charged with taking that into consideration, particularly as regards rail connectivity.

[Lord Richard]

The Minister does not exactly give the impression of a Government who are anxious to find a speedy solution to this problem. He keeps saying that the policy has to survive the next election. What consultative processes does he have in place for trying to ensure that it will survive the next election? Is he, for example, discussing it with other parties?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, currently it is planned that the final report of the Airports Commission will come out after the next election. Of course, the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, and I could have a chat before the next election but, even though he and I have solved a lot of problems together and we have rarely needed to seek the opinion of the House, I suspect that this matter will be far beyond our pay grade to determine.

Railways: Crossrail

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Wednesday 5th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Courtown]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress has been made to date on their plans for Crossrail.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Crossrail project is progressing well. The six tunnel-boring machines active under London have completed around 12 kilometres of tunnels. Several milestones have already been reached, including the tunnel breakthrough at Canary Wharf attended by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State and the Mayor of London last Friday. While maintaining focus on the delivery of infrastructure, work is now well under way on the operational phases of the project: in other words, making Crossrail a fully operational railway.

[The Earl of Courtown]

I thank the Minister for that helpful reply. Will my noble friend join me in congratulating the many small and medium-sized enterprises that have been part of this very important infrastructure project? It would also be very useful if he would tell the House whether any decision has been made on who the future operator of Crossrail will be.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful for the support of my noble friend for the SMEs and other businesses supporting the Crossrail project. A lot of them are involved, and, in addition, many of them are based far outside London and the south-east. Transport for London will be responsible for Crossrail services. It is procuring a private sector Crossrail train operator concession, using a model similar to London Overground. Operations will start in May 2015.

The current opening strategy is split into five phases, beginning with Liverpool Street to Shenfield in May 2015. In December 2018, services will start through the main Crossrail tunnel between Paddington and Abbey Wood. Full services will open in December 2019.

[Lord Berkeley]

Will the Minister explain whether there are still plans to have two different signalling systems on this tunnel, one in the tunnel and one on Network Rail on either side? What assurances can he give that the trains will not have to stop at the changeover point? That would not be very good when a two-minute headway frequency is planned for the trains. Is the matter resolved yet?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it is not resolved yet. The noble Lord is quite right that there are two signalling systems. One is needed in the central portion in order to meet the productivity requirements. Engineers are working through the issues of transitioning from one system to another, but the trains will not need to stop in order to transition the system.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

My Lords, the Minister referred to the six tunnel-boring machines. Is he aware not only that all six machines were imported but that the reason they were imported is not that in a competitive tender they were more competitive than British tunnel-boring machines but that there is no such thing as a British tunnel-boring machine? Would it not be useful to ask the Department for Business to do a study of why, in this potentially hugely growing market world wide, we have no capacity in this country?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right that the tunnel-boring machines were not made in the UK. Each one costs about £10 million, which is a relatively small proportion of the overall project. UK businesses have benefited from the award of 97% of the contracts in the Crossrail supply chain, with 58% of contracts awarded to SMEs and 43% awarded beyond London and the south-east.

[Lord Palmer]

My Lords, has the noble Earl’s department given any thought to whether Crossrail ought to be renamed, perhaps in honour of Her Majesty the Queen after 60 years of loyal service on the Throne?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, this is an issue for the Mayor, but it is a very interesting idea and something that we will consider. There are a number of examples of railway infrastructure being named after the monarch or royal events, such as the Victoria line, Victoria station and the Jubilee line.

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, Crossrail 1 is very expensive and there is a now a possibility of Crossrail 2 which will be much more so. Have the Government given any thought to ways in which contributions from businesses which benefit from these schemes can be efficiently tapped into the scheme? For example, while at Ealing huge rises in property prices have benefited several private sector investors, the taxpayer gets nothing.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right that we will need to see a full business case for the revised scheme, and we hope to receive this from Transport for London in the next few weeks. We also need to see a convincing proposition for how the scheme could be funded and DfT officials are exploring options with TfL. I agree with the noble Lord about property benefits but it is difficult to capture them.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the House will appreciate the progress which has been made on Crossrail and the Minister will know this has been met through a publicly funded system. Why on earth did the Government not follow this process on Thameslink? The severely critical report published today by the National Audit Office states that reliance on a complex mix of public and private finance means that the trains for this project may not be delivered on time.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the NAO report, due to be published today, has been agreed by the department. The report is broadly positive. We welcome the scrutiny of the NAO and are pleased that it has recognised the good progress we have made in delivering the first stage of the infrastructure part of the programme on time and under budget.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

My Lords, are the Government now considering extending Crossrail to Reading? Would it not be sensible to do so, as Reading is the second largest rail junction in the country and is being redesigned and reworked on a very expensive basis? It could well accommodate much better use of the Crossrail project.

[Earl Attlee]

It would be possible for Crossrail services to be extended to Reading in the future and the new Reading station has been designed to keep that option open. The route from Maidenhead to Reading remains safeguarded. Some of the works at Maidenhead are necessary for sidings in any case.

Railways: East Coast Main Line

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Tuesday 4th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether consideration has been given to extending the management by Directly Operated Railways of the east coast main line franchise.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Government carefully considered a number of issues before announcing the franchising programme schedule on 26 March. This schedule sees the commencement of a new franchise on the intercity east coast in February 2015. This will return the franchise to the private sector after an extended period of public control, putting in place a long-term partner for the significant investment that the Government will make in the east coast main line in future years.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I have two questions. Will the noble Earl confirm that his ministerial colleague in the other place got it wrong when he stated that the publicly operated east coast main line returned a lower figure to the Treasury than the privately operated west coast? The 2011-12 figures show the opposite: £156 million was returned to the Treasury from Virgin on the west coast and £177 million was returned from the publicly operated east coast service, so my second question is this: what, apart from political dogma, inspires the Government to propose ending the east coast‘s successful operation?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, on the noble Lord’s first question, the short answer is no. During the three years to 2012, the Treasury received £411 million and £450 million from the east coast and west coast rail franchises respectively. This is completely separate from the money that the DfT paid to Virgin Trains as part of the revenue-based risk-sharing mechanism, which by its nature is variable, so the statement that my right honourable friend made is factually accurate. The bottom line is that the plans that we have set out will drive improvements to rail services and put passengers at the heart of a revitalised rail franchising system. It is also important to remember that rail franchises are not directly comparable.

It was never intended for the east coast main line to remain in the public sector. Indeed, when the then Secretary of State, the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, explained in this House in July 2009 the decision to bring the line into public control, he said:

“I do not believe that it would be in the public interest for us to have a nationalised train operating company indefinitely”.—[Official Report, 1/7/09; col. 232.]

[Lord Palmer]

My Lords, I must declare an interest, as the House of Lords pays an enormous amount of money to get me travelling from Berwick-upon-Tweed to here, and, indeed, my family spends an awful lot of money on buying their tickets. Since the east coast service is operating remarkably successfully and is working well, why is there this desperate need and hurry to denationalise it?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, many noble Lords have privately approached me and said how well the east coast franchise is working under DOR. However, we need a longer-term investment plan for the future. The Brown review finds that franchising is a fundamentally sound approach for securing the passenger railway services on which so many people rely. The Government remain committed to benefiting from private sector innovation and operational experience in their railways.

[Lord Shipley]

My Lords, I am a user of the east coast service. Will a new franchisee be tied to the presently proposed trains, or may they be able to propose an alternative of a much cheaper rolling-stock package?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the future for the east coast main line includes the intercity express programme to replace the existing high-speed trains, which are very old. There is an option to extend the IEP to include replacing the 225 trains. The Government will have to decide later this year whether to take that option.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, is it a fair summary of the Government’s position that if an organisation in the private sector is making a mess of things and losing money, the taxpayer should pick it up and sort it out and that as soon as it is profitable again it should be returned to the private sector?

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord knows perfectly well that that is not a fair analysis of what went wrong with the east coast railway line. I am sure he would not suggest bringing an airline into direct operation by the Government.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, will my noble friend ensure that whoever operates this line in future offers a better, more regular service between London and Lincoln?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend raises an important question. I have discussed this with officials and they are working on it. However, there are some complex problems concerning the logistics and timetabling. Currently, the Lincoln line is not electrified, so it is complex, but my officials are working on it.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall]

My Lords, will the noble Earl expand a little on his answer to my noble friend Lord Grocott? He said earlier that different rail franchises cannot be compared, which may or may not be true but I will take it as true—in which case, can we just compare the performance of different operators on the east coast line? The failure of the private sector was what made it necessary, was it not, for the Government to intervene in the first place. Can he at the very least explain to the House in what way the successful operation of the east coast line under DOR has been analysed so that its successes can, as a minimum, be pointed to when a private sector operator takes it over, so that it can emulate them?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the last part of the noble Baroness’s question was very good, because under Directly Operated Railways we understand the franchise and DOR will be able to suggest how in future the new franchise can better operate the railway. It is also important to understand that the west coast main line has increased its passenger rate by 100%, whereas the east coast main line has done so by only 30%.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

My Lords, given that some of our current independent franchisees are classed as private companies but are foreign and indirectly owned by foreign Governments, such as the German Government, why are we prepared to accept that they can compete by taking British lines and running franchises, yet not prepared to contemplate extending some competition between the public and private sector owned by the British Government?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord will know perfectly well that we have to comply with European procurement rules. The ITT has initially to be published in the European journal and we have no intention of changing that situation.

Daylight Saving

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd May 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tanlaw]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of whether the re-introduction of single/double summer time will reduce road deaths; and whether they will publish the road casualty statistics, including date and time, from the 1968-71 daylight saving experiment to inform debate on the matter.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we estimate that 54 deaths and 185 serious casualties would be avoided annually across Great Britain if single/double summer time were adopted. However, this would have a much wider effect on the economy and society, which must also be taken into account. The Department for Transport does not hold road casualty statistics from before 1979. Officials are investigating whether other organisations hold the statistics. If they can be obtained, I will make them available.

[Lord Tanlaw]

If I heard the noble Earl correctly, it is very encouraging that the Department for Transport now recognises the connection between daylight saving and a reduction in accidents. Indeed, the statistics seem to prove that. Is the noble Earl aware that it is 45 years since 1968 and that 40 transient Transport Ministers have taken on the job since then? The Minister seems to be the first one who has seen this connection. Will he therefore consider having a debate to deal with the full implications of daylight saving and give an undertaking that, whatever happens with Scotland over independence or any concessions given to it, the time in Scotland will remain the same as south of the border?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the department’s admission that there would be casualty savings is not new, but the available savings for each year as we reduce the overall number of casualties are only approximately one-third of the annual reduction in casualties that we expect. I would be delighted to have a debate in your Lordships’ House, but of course that is a matter for the usual channels.

[Baroness Sharples]

Will my noble friend congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Tanlaw, in asking this question over more than 30 years? I have heard him do so many times.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I look forward with bated breath when the noble Lord stands to see whether he will ask about something else. One has to be persistent, but whether the noble Lord will achieve his desired outcome I cannot say.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, taking into account the value of a human life, which I think the department uses in looking at accidents, I calculate that on the noble Earl’s figures the saving would be in the order of £5 billion. He was much vaguer about the economic downsides. Will he explain more about the economic disadvantages of this change?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right: there are serious disadvantages. In the aviation industry, for instance, in the long term it would be positive. However, it would take three years to adapt to the time change, and the aviation industry would need five years’ notice of the change. In addition, it would need another three years if we wanted to go back.

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

My Lords, apart from the obvious road safety benefits, does my noble friend appreciate that the tourism industry estimates that £3.5 billion of extra revenue and 80,000 new jobs will be generated with double summer time. That is 80,000 jobs across all skill levels. When will the Government stop being so wet on this issue?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Government are not being wet on the issue. If the noble Lord would like to start negotiations with Mr Willie Walsh, he is welcome to do so. However, I accept that the noble Lord’s analysis about the effect on tourism and leisure activities. That is a very good point. I am acutely aware of it when I attend the Great Dorset Steam Fair in September, because by 8 o’clock it is getting dark.

[Lord Grocott]

The Minister talked about going back. Is it not worth while looking at the history book rather than the crystal ball on this issue? It has been tried once and Parliament, the Government and presumably public opinion—my memory is not that precise—decided that it was an experiment that had not been successful and that we should revert to the previous situation. In the spirit of openness, will the Minister place in the Library a copy of the arguments that were used in order to end the experiment that was deemed at the time to have been unsuccessful?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I suspect that the debates in Hansard will be very illuminating as to why at that point it was decided not to persist with the experiment. As the aviation industry has developed considerably since the trial, it would have much greater effect on that industry. It would probably not have such an adverse effect on the construction industry and in agriculture, however, because much more artificial lighting is now used by them.

[Lord Tebbit]

Would it not be considerably better if we put the savings into the subsequent costs of pensions and healthcare of those who, according to the noble Lord, Lord Tanlaw, suffer premature death on the roads?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I did not quite get my noble friend’s point. However, if we did this as a trial, because the savings in casualties are only a third of the projected annual savings, we would not be sure whether it was a bad year, a good year, or just the effect of the trial.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I have considerable sympathy with argument made by the noble Lord, Lord Tanlaw. The statistics have pointed this way for a considerable period. However, surely it would be inopportune for the Government to consider legislation on this matter at present, knowing full well that a significant body of opinion in Scotland is very hostile to the measure and it would look as though this Parliament were seeking to pre-empt the important issues of the referendum.

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. The difficulty in Scotland, if we went for single/double summer time is that it would be getting light at 10 o’clock in the morning in some places. Time is a devolved matter for Scotland and for Northern Ireland, but the Government are clear that there should be one time zone throughout the United Kingdom.

[Baroness Knight of Collingtree]

My Lords, is it not the case that when the matter was previously investigated, no change was made mainly because of the danger to young children going to school on dark mornings on roads that had not been cleared of snow and that sort of thing? When considering this issue, let us not forget that there is a strong case to look after small children going to school?

[Earl Attlee]

I absolutely agree that there is a strong case for looking after children on the roads, but our calculations tell us that in road safety terms the change would be positive. I assure the House that every time this is raised, Ministers such as me ask officials all the searching questions but we come up with the same answer that it would be very difficult to do a trial and that there are very serious objections to it.

Mesothelioma Bill [HL]

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd May 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Earl Attlee]

That it be an instruction to the Grand Committee to which the Mesothelioma Bill [HL] has been committed that they consider the bill in the following order:

Clauses 1 to 11, Schedule 1. Clause 12, Schedule 2, Clauses 13 to 21.

Motion agreed.

Railways: High Speed 2

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Tuesday 21st May 2013 Grand Committee

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I assure the Committee that I will be supporting and pursuing the HS2 project with great vigour.

I start by thanking my noble friend Lord Astor for securing this debate and I thank other noble Lords for their contributions. A project as significant as HS2 deserves plenty of time for debate, and I am happy to address your Lordships’ questions this evening and, I hope, on future occasions.

There have been some developments. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport introduced the High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill, to which my noble friend referred, in the House of Commons on 13 May. It is colloquially known as the paving Bill. We also published the Draft Environmental Statement for phase 1 on 16 May, along with a consultation on the proposed route refinements.

Noble Lords will also be aware of the NAO’s review of HS2. The report is a snapshot from the past and the project has moved on. Economic modelling is just part of the story. If we relied only on modelling, we would not have built the M1, parts of the M25 or the Jubilee line extension to Canary Wharf. We are not building HS2 simply because “the computer says yes”; it is the right thing to do to make Britain a stronger and more prosperous place.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, made much of the NAO report. Perhaps I may remind him that the Government are running with a project that his party started, and we are very happy to do so. This is a transformational project that will serve eight out of 10 of the UK’s largest cities, bringing our major cities closer together and two-thirds of people in the north to within two hours of London.

The Government support a direct high-speed connection to Heathrow but it is sensible that further work on a link to Heathrow should await the consideration of the Airports Commission’s recommendations, due in 2015. If it fitted with the commission’s recommendations, we could consult separately later and include the spur in the legislation for phase 2. It could be constructed as part of phase 2 without any impact on the operational railway.

We welcome the outcome of the judicial review, with nine of the 10 challenges being rejected. The one challenge on which the judge found against the Government concerned the 2011 consultation on property compensation rights. The judgment makes clear that it was the process, not the compensation scheme itself, that was flawed. We are giving detailed consideration to the judge’s comments and are planning to reconsult later this year on property compensation schemes.

My noble friend has claimed that properties more than 60 metres from the line would not be eligible for compensation. This is not correct. The exceptional hardship scheme for phase 1 has no defined geographical limit for qualification. However, the EHS is only the start; we will consult later this year on long-term proposals for property schemes that will apply to those outside the 120-metre swathe that my noble friend has described. I have more to say on property compensation.

It is regrettable that the recent judicial review has delayed the introduction of further compensation. However, the Government have been clear that we want to get compensation to those who need it as quickly as possible. While it is inappropriate to speculate on the final package of schemes, I can confirm that the scheme, or rather the consultation, will include a property bond.

The Government are determined to make this an environmentally responsible scheme. We have listened to concerns and worked closely with Natural England and the Environment Agency. However, you cannot build a railway without causing some disruption. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, raised the issue of the Chilterns. Following the 2011 consultation, of the 13 miles of route through the Chilterns AONB, less than two miles will be at or above the surface. This is more than a 50% increase in tunnel or green tunnel compared with the original route. It is clearly harder to avoid an AONB near the Home Counties than further north, where there are more possibilities of changing the route.

Mitigation can have its own impacts. A full-bored tunnel through the Chilterns was considered, but would require 10 ventilation shafts as well as an emergency access station. This would be a box constructed within the AONB, around half a mile long, with good road access for emergency services. Only one feasible location for this access station was identified, close to Little Missenden on the A413, requiring the box to be between 40 metres and 50 metres deep, making this a costly and significant engineering challenge, with its own environmental impacts.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I think I detected a somewhat aggressive stance in what he was saying. I am sorry that he says that. Does he not accept that there is in fact an alternative scheme, which I mentioned in my speech, that proposes a relief tunnel, exactly as specified and required under European legislation, at Wendover Dean? That has the support of local residents, which is one of the major reasons why it has been put forward. To say that there is no alternative except in Mantle’s Wood, the very ancient woodland that we are most concerned about, which happens to be near Little Missenden and indeed Great Missenden, is wrong, and we are against that. There is an alternative. It is not the best alternative, but it is disingenuous of the Minister to say that there are no possible alternatives.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am extremely sorry to the Committee if I appeared to be aggressive. I have no intention of doing that at all. However, the noble Lord is raising detailed questions about the route, and my duty is to defend the whole scheme. It will be the duty of Parliament to finally approve the route. At the moment, we are consulting about the route, and we need to do that properly. I will of course read Hansard carefully to look at the precise points that the noble Lord has made.

I turn to the issue of train speed, which my noble friend Lord Astor raised. The route has been engineered to allow for train speeds of up to 400 kilometres per hour in future, should there be a commercial justification for doing so. Operation at up to 400 kilometres per hour would require the consideration of whether improved train design enabled services to operate at that higher speed without additional significant adverse environmental effects. Going fast does not disproportionately increase the cost of the infrastructure, but it means that the alignment has to be more or less straight.

I will try to answer as many questions as I can in the time remaining. My noble friend Lord Astor proposed a station at Bicester, but then he went on to point out the difficulties of accelerating and decelerating from stations. My noble friend made further comments on train speeds. While it is true that some European operators are looking at operating at slightly lower speeds, largely due to maintenance issues, we are not aware of any that are planning to go as low as 225 kilometres per hour. The infrastructure is still built for higher speeds so that, when technology allows, they will be able to return to those higher operating speeds.

My noble friend also talked about the spur to Heathrow. It is important to understand that the spur has not been cancelled but has been paused, and it is too early to predict the outcome of the Airports Commission’s work or any of the decisions taken following that. There are no plans to slow down the progress of phase 1. We need to press on quickly with phase 1 so that we can deliver the economic and wider benefits that higher rail speeds can bring. Does pausing the spur mean no third runway at Heathrow? The Government’s position on a third runway at Heathrow remains unchanged, as set out in the coalition agreement. However, the Airports Commission has been tasked with identifying and recommending to the Government options for maintaining the UK’s status as an international hub for aviation.

My noble friend Lord Astor and others have suggested that, where possible, the route should follow noisy transport corridors such as existing motorways. During the course of the scheme development work in 2009, six main corridors, including the M40 and the M1, were considered. The routes were rejected, primarily because of their adverse implications for journey times and economic benefits, which were compounded by their higher costs. Any environmental advantages that these options offered over the proposed scheme were marginal at best, and therefore not decisive in discounting these routes.

I turn to the issue of compensation. We are clear that we need to have a very good compensation scheme. Most infrastructure projects compensate property owners only at a much later stage of development, when statutory measures apply. For the HS2 project, however, an exceptional hardship scheme has already been introduced while the route is being considered. Subject to consultation later this year, the Government have already stated that we hope to introduce subsequent schemes that go even further than the law requires in order to ensure fair compensation for those directly affected by HS2.

Perhaps it would be helpful if I gave a case study for what we are doing with the EHS, remembering that it is inappropriate for me to comment on specific individual cases. Take a lady living 350 metres from the proposed HS2 route who suffered from an illness that meant she was unable to safely climb the stairs in her home. The lady therefore needed to sell her home to purchase a bungalow but, because of the proximity of HS2, she was unable to achieve a sale at the required price. The lady and her husband applied to the EHS, providing documentary evidence that they met the criteria for the scheme, including that the lady was suffering exceptional hardship. A majority independent panel considered the evidence and recommended that the lady’s home should be purchased from her. This recommendation was reviewed and agreed by a senior civil servant at the DfT. Some 12 weeks later, we exchanged contracts on the lady’s home for the full, unblighted value. So far we have brought 81 properties on to the scheme, spending just under £50 million, and have offered to buy a further 32.

[Viscount Astor]

I am grateful to my noble friend for giving way. He kindly said that the Government have the intention of introducing a property bond. I realise that there will not be time for him to go into the details today but I would be grateful, when he has had a chance to consider what it might be, if he would perhaps write to those who have spoken in this debate with any details that he has.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I very nearly slipped up in what I said. I nearly said that we would be introducing a property bond, but I corrected myself and said that we would be consulting on a property bond, which is rather different.

My noble friend gave us an amusing analogy about the Palace of Westminster, where the Cross Benches are and so on. This claim reflects neither the current strategy provisions nor the discretionary proposals put forth by the Government. Property owners may be entitled to Part 1 compensation under the Land Compensation Act 1973. This is paid if the property loses value due to the impact of physical factors arising from the use of new infrastructure, such as noise, dust and vibration. It is available for owner-occupiers of residential properties, small businesses and agriculture units. Owners can put in claims once the railway line has been open for a year. This allows the actual impact of the infrastructure to be understood.

I have completely run out of time. I will have to write on all the other issues, apart from the suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, of a below-ground station at Euston. I read the noble Lord’s proposal very carefully but I am afraid that it has been rejected. In order to avoid Underground lines and the proposed Crossrail 2 and Thameslink station at Kings Cross, the station would need to be very deep—50 metres or more. The significant additional cost and complexity of constructing such a station, and the significant safety issues that it would present in respect of evacuation, mean that this option is not viable. I have discussed this with the engineer, and will happily discuss it further with the noble Lord if that would help. I would also be very happy to have separate meetings with Members of the Committee on each individual issue, as I have only 12 minutes to respond today and it is very difficult for me to do justice to noble Lords’ points.

I reassure the Committee that the Government will continue to listen to concerns about the impact of HS2. The consultation on the draft environmental statement and route refinement will be an opportunity for people to respond with their views on what is needed. HS2 is about helping Britain to thrive and prosper.

[Lord Rosser]

Before the Minister sits down, in the light of what he said at the end about the consultation on the environmental statement, I am still not clear, and would therefore like him to confirm whether the outcome of that consultation could lead to the route that has been determined so far being changed, and whether it could lead to the extent to which a line is in a tunnel, in a cutting or on the surface also being changed—or is that all fixed now?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, at the end of the day, nothing is fixed until Parliament has determined what the route will be. The role of the Government is to propose to Parliament what the route should be, using the appropriate procedures, and then Parliament will agree what the route will be.

Committee adjourned at 5.15 pm.

Transport: Bus Services

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Monday 20th May 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they plan to introduce any proposals that may affect local bus services.

[Lord Sharkey]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Greaves, and at his request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, as set out last year in the policy document, Green Light for Better Buses, the Government have a programme of action to improve local bus services. This includes reforming the way we pay the bus service operators grant (BSOG), incentivising partnership working through Better Bus Areas, and improving competition between bus companies by implementing the Competition Commission’s recommendations. We are also accelerating the development of smart ticketing on buses in England’s largest cities.

[Lord Sharkey]

I thank the Minister for that Answer. Last week, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Norman Baker, announced in a Written Answer that the role of traffic commissioners would be reviewed later this year. When this review takes place, will the Minister consider that when buses run late because of local highway issues, traffic commissioners should be given the power to summon not only the bus companies responsible but also local authority representatives?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am not aware of the particular point that my noble friend makes. However, with the Better Bus Areas, there will be much closer co-operation between bus operators and local authorities, which should improve the situation to which he refers.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, the noble Earl may be aware that there is a very limited bus service down to the Point in Portsmouth. This is important because today HMS “Ark Royal” is being towed away to be scrapped. Is the Minister willing to convey the thanks of the House for her 25 years’ amazing service to this nation?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am delighted to stray completely off piste. First, I have not been on HMS “Ark Royal” but I have been on the “Illustrious”. Secondly, there is a railway station called Portsmouth Harbour.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister regaled the House with a list of optimistic policies that the Government were pursuing with regard to buses. However, if the grant and support for local buses are reduced by 20%, how on earth are any of these policies going to make a real difference? Will he recognise that there is absolutely no point in the Prime Minister guaranteeing the bus pass for pensioners if there are no buses for them to travel on?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am a little disappointed. I thought that the noble Lord would have given me a much better run for my money. I accept that there has to be a 20% cut in the bus service operators grant. It is painful. My honourable friend Mr Norman Baker would have liked not to have done it—I am sure he would have fought hard to avoid it—but the best way of reducing the budget is to make small cuts everywhere, and we have had to make a small cut in the bus service operators grant. However, the effect on the bus service mileage has not been as much as one might expect.

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, talking of small cuts, our local village has a rather intermittent bus service, but they use quite large buses on the route. The buses are mainly empty. Would it be possible to use minibuses, which are cheaper to maintain, do not take up so much of the road and do not wreck the roads quite so much, instead of expensive single-decker buses?

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Countess makes a good point, but it is of course up to the operator to select the most suitable bus for its operations. It is a purely operational matter.

[Lord Geddes]

My Lords, has any further consideration been given to moving the central coach station out from Victoria?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, unfortunately that is a matter for the Mayor of London.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

My Lords, I hope the noble Earl will take due note about what the noble Lord, Lord Davies, has said about pensioners’ bus passes. If they are removed—and I sincerely hope that the Government have no plans to do so, since I have a personal interest in the matter—the bus services would decline very seriously in this country.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that there is no intention to remove the old-age bus pass.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, did the Minister see that the Prime Minister had to go all the way to the United States to go on a London bus with Prince Harry? Has he ever been on a London bus in London, or is he afraid of running into swivel-eyed loons?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I do not know when my right honourable friend the Prime Minister last went on a bus, but I use the bus when I go to see my mother because the bus frequency is high enough and it goes exactly where I want, when I want.

Asylum Seekers

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Monday 20th May 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what consideration they have given to allowing asylum seekers the right to work after six months of waiting for a decision on their application.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Government believe that it is important to maintain a distinction between economic migration and asylum. That is why asylum applicants may work only if their application has been outstanding for over a year. A more generous policy would encourage those not in need of protection to claim asylum for economic reasons.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

That is a half-disappointing Answer from the Minister. Does he agree that allowing somebody to work who has been applying for, say, six months would bring them some dignity and some hope? It would also bring in tax revenue and cut the Government’s benefit bill. Does he not think that if we continue as now, asylum seekers will have no reason to get up in the morning, no hope and no job to go to? There will just be total despondency. The present system of not allowing asylum seekers to work really just condemns them to penury and despair and is a total denial of their potential.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I hate to disappoint my noble friend. I accept how important it is for people to work. However, we cannot allow these asylum seekers to work until the 12-month point because it would encourage economic migration. My noble friend talked about the loss of tax revenue, but the current policies of asylum support under Section 95 and Section 4 have reduced expenditure from £1.2 billion in 2003 to below £300 million now.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

My Lords, will the Minister tell the House what account has been taken of the evidence of the harmful impact on children’s well-being of continuing to deny their parents the right to work?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am sure that it is taken into consideration, but our obligation to asylum seekers is to meet their essential living needs and determine their applications as fast as possible, which we do in a significant number of cases.

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, the Government have been very careful to keep the distinction between asylum seeking and migration, which, in his Answer to my noble friend, the Minister seemed not to retain. Would he agree that that is important? Would he also agree that it is important not to drive asylum seekers underground, perhaps into the black economy, which denying them the opportunity to work may well do?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I hope that I made the distinction between immigration and asylum seeking very clear indeed. I accept my noble friend’s point about the need to avoid driving asylum seekers underground, but that is trumped by the need to avoid making seeking asylum an attractive proposition.

[The Lord Bishop of Newcastle]

Is the Minister aware that the Church of England’s General Synod, representing local churches with considerable first-hand experience of the lives of asylum seekers, voted overwhelmingly that all asylum seekers should have access to work? Does he accept that 12 months is far too long to be unable to provide for their families while waiting for their claim to be resolved?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I do not accept that 12 months is far too long, because it is backed up by European legislation.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Earl Attlee]

Indeed, there is much good legislation that comes from Europe. The point I would like to make is that asylum seekers can do voluntary work.

[Lord Touhig]

My Lords, there is anecdotal evidence showing that denying asylum seekers the right to work prevents their integration into British society. Have the Government made an assessment of this aspect of the problem, and if they have not done so, will he agree to do it?

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord is right: denying asylum seekers the ability to work makes it difficult for them to integrate into our society, and that is what we want. We do not want asylum seekers who have not determined their right to be in the UK to become integrated into the UK, as it makes it more difficult for them to return. When we find that someone has a good claim for asylum, asylum is granted, they can work straight away and we can then try to integrate them into our society as fast as possible.

[Baroness Bakewell]

The noble Earl will know that when women seek asylum following often violent sexual abuse in their country of origin, they are most likely to have their application accepted on appeal, so while they hang around without any income, many of them become destitute. How does he propose resolving that problem?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the legislation is specifically designed to make sure that asylum seekers do not become destitute. They are supported under Sections 95 and 4, particularly Section 95 when their application is being determined. I would like to discuss with the noble Baroness privately why she thinks that female asylum seekers should be more vulnerable to becoming destitute. She has also previously raised with me the difficulties experienced by female asylum seekers, particularly in respect of torture.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, asylum seekers sometimes wait years for a decision and delays are increasing. As we have heard, that leaves genuine refugees in limbo and makes it harder to send failed cases home. We currently have a shambolic situation whereby 300,000 people are trapped in the immigration asylum backlog, with 90,000 cases being written off so far or given effective amnesty because papers have been lost in some cases. I know the Minister will tell us that the Government are making organisational changes, but can he say something about the specific practical actions that are being taken to deal with the problem? Does he recognise that the dramatic cut in the number of staff at UK Border Agency has contributed to this backlog?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I do not recognise some of the figures the noble Baroness has quoted. My information is that the expenditure on asylum support has gone down, as I said, from £1.2 billion in 2003 to below £300 million now. I accept that there is a problem in dealing with the legacy backlog, but the Question is about asylum seekers’ ability to work. The more we can reduce unfounded asylum claims, the better we can properly determine the genuine applicants and look after them properly.

Children’s Hearings (Scotland) Act 2011 (Consequential and Transitional Provisions and Savings) Order 2013

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Thursday 25th April 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Earl Attlee]

That the draft order laid before the House on 11 March be approved.

Relevant document: 22nd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 23 April.

Motion agreed.