Civil Aviation Bill

Lord Soley Excerpts

Wednesday 27th June 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Bradshaw]

In moving Amendment 1, I shall speak also to Amendment 10. These amendments relate to the surface access to the airports, which is of course very important, not just for people who fly but for people who work there and residents. So I am not entering a plea especially for airline passengers but for everybody who uses those modes of access in getting there.

Some figures published this morning show that pollution arising from aeroplanes is reducing quite sharply as bigger and more efficient aeroplanes take over. That brings into focus the need to tackle the higher level of both noise and atmospheric pollution that comes from surface access to airports. I want to stress the point that we must do something about surface access. I know that there are many ideas about it—it is probably becoming more important than the aircraft themselves.

I do not intend to turn this debate into an argument about the third runway in Heathrow, but I want to draw attention to the large amount of spare runway capacity that exists or is planned to exist at Gatwick, Stansted, Birmingham and Luton airports and in other regions of the country. The four airports that I mentioned particularly affect the south-east. If it were exploited, that would reduce the clamour about demand at Heathrow, which is being fed mainly by BA and BAA which have substantial financial interests in it. I am particularly anxious about the damaging and expensive campaign that they are running, which suggests that London is not open for business. I think that they are trying to hijack any debate and the forthcoming White Paper to try to concentrate on what they see as the problem—how they can get more planes at Heathrow, which in turn will give them more income.

Regional airports could well take up the challenge as Gatwick has done since it was divested from BAA. Noble Lords will probably be aware that Gatwick now has two direct flights to China, one to South Korea, one to Nigeria and one to Hong Kong. That is only the beginning to building up an international business, and I believe—and I have been to several airports—that Birmingham, with all the committed money being spent there, will offer passengers a wide range of possibilities when they travel. For example, most airport users or people who use the lines, cite the fact that Stansted Express is not a very good, efficient or comfortable way in which to get to London. In fact, if you consider the Lee valley, the whole service needs revision. It needs money spent on the infrastructure, and it is one of the areas that I hope the Government may have something to say about in the high-level output statement for the railways which I believe they are due to publish next month.

The impact of HS2—if it is built—on Birmingham airport would be huge and would bring it within 38 minutes of London, which is equivalent to what Gatwick is now and what Heathrow is for most people. The real point that has been made to me, particularly by people at Gatwick, is that passengers from airports do not mix well with passengers who are commuting on a regular basis. For example, if trains emanating from Brighton arrive at Gatwick full of commuters and a lot of Americans with heavy luggage who have never been here before are on the platform, they cannot be accommodated comfortably on the service that is provided. That is why I was pleased to see the debate yesterday in the House of Commons on this matter. It was raised by Henry Smith, the MP for Crawley, who said that it is very necessary that the whole question of access to airports is brought into focus. It is definitely on the radar of the department. In this debate, reference was made to the fact that the new Southern franchise will be let, and it will be up to the franchisees what they want to do. I think they might need a little guidance. It is not just the train services; it is the trains themselves because many of the trains in use on the railway are pretty unsuitable for people with heavy luggage.

If I am correct, it is only the regulated airports that need any requirement for improvements to be included in the regulations. This is so that they can be included within their regulatory asset base. I do not want any situation to arise in a regulated airport where any airline might legally escape paying its share of any improvements that are made to surface access. I hope the Minister can give me an assurance that once this change is made everything will go into the RAB.

Licensed airports, which are a different lot, can do whatever they consider to be commercially attractive. In many cases, this will mean help with investments by other transport providers to produce mutually beneficial schemes and from local authorities keen to promote regional airports. These airports do not need the regulator to intervene, as I see it, so the intervention may come from government or from local authorities which are keen to invest in improvements. Birmingham airport stressed to me that it feels that if the huge spare capacity it has is used, it would bring a lot of development with it. In that case, you have an airport that is willing to accommodate any improvement.

I hope the Minister can give me the assurances that I seek and will endorse the fact that the improvement of surface access is extremely important and is becoming more so as time goes on. I beg to move.

[Lord Soley]

The noble Lord might be surprised that I am not entirely unsympathetic to what he is trying to achieve but I do not think that he is trying to achieve it in the best way. I will not focus on his comments about Gatwick managing to be a hub or otherwise, although I think that if you told the people around Gatwick that we were to move Heathrow’s operation there, they might be a little less enthusiastic than the airport owners.

I think the noble Lord is right that there is a problem about surface access to airports generally. However, it is not my view that the CAA is the best organisation to do this—the Minister will tell us what he thinks. This flags up the problem which a number of us have referred to over many years: we lack an effective regional government structure in Britain that could provide the surface transport necessary around airports, as well as some of the other regional infrastructure that we need. The noble Lord is right that we end up doing things in a hit-and-miss way, with a bit here and a bit there, and then join it up afterwards. Heathrow Express came in but was that really the best idea when we had Crossrail coming? There are a lot of oddities in there. In my judgment, and I will be interested to hear what the Minister says on this, if we asked the CAA to suddenly become the organisation that has to comment on and recommend surface infrastructure we, will need a much larger organisation than the current CAA.

[Lord Berkeley]

We have heard two interesting speeches. I have a lot of sympathy with the amendment but what concerns me is starting off on the basis that this would add to the regulatory duties in Clause 1. Regulatory duties are terribly important issues for a regulator to take into account. I have had certain experiences with the Office of Rail Regulation over the years. Reminding it of its duties can be a good way of making sure that it remembers and acts on them.

Of course, Clause 1(2) says that the CAA must carry out its functions,

“in a manner which it considers will promote competition in the provision of airport operation services”.

I am not clear on what we are talking about when it comes to competition. This is something that will recur in later amendments. Is it competition between those airports included in the scheme in the south-east, or all airports, or competition for the provision of services within an airport? If it is the latter, this seems a big sledgehammer to crack a nut. When the Minister replies, maybe he can put me right on that.

There is also the issue that my noble friend Lord Soley raised on surface access and whether the CAA is the best organisation to do this. He might be right or wrong but there is a similar concern with ports and airports: who pays for the infrastructure and who decides? I thought that the general policy of successive Governments was that the private-sector operator of an airport or port invested within the boundary of the facility and then expected the state, local or regional authorities, or someone, to contribute to the cost of access, except when there was a Section 106-type agreement. We certainly got into a knot in the ports sector. Sometimes there was state aid available for some things and sometimes there was not.

We got into a right old knot with Heathrow over the years. BAA contributed to the cost of building the Heathrow Express line and operating the trains. It did not seem to want the Heathrow Express trains to go down the Crossrail tunnel, which most people would have thought would have made a very good piece of public transport planning, so it will not go down it. I was told by some people from BAA yesterday that the reason for that—they confirmed this—was that the most important customers who use the Heathrow Express, particularly in first class, do not like going into tunnels because their BlackBerry does not work. They would rather go from Paddington to Canary Wharf in a taxi, where they can still play with their BlackBerry. Frankly, that is a farcical argument. It was suggested that if there was a first-class carriage in Crossrail and it went straight to Heathrow, people might use it. This attitude will adversely affect the future public transport and surface access into Heathrow. I hope it will change its attitude; it has certainly said that it will look at the situation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Rosser]

This amendment and Amendment 13 relate to the Civil Aviation Authority’s general duty and the Secretary of State’s general duty, as set out in Clauses 1 and 2 of the Bill. I will direct my comments to the Civil Aviation Authority’s general duty though the argument is the same in respect of the Secretary of State’s general duty.

Under Clause 1(1), the CAA must carry out its functions under Chapter 1 of the Bill,

“in a manner which it considers will further the interests of users of air transport services regarding the range, availability, continuity, cost and quality of airport operation services”.

Subsection (2) goes on to say that:

“The CAA must do so, where appropriate, by carrying out the functions in a manner which it considers will promote competition in the provision of airport operation services”.

This amendment adds to the end of that,

“but only where this will not conflict with its ability to carry out its functions in a manner set out in subsection (1)”.

In the absence of any definition of what “where appropriate” in subsection (2) is intended to mean or how it is to be interpreted in the context of the Bill, there appears to be an assumption in subsection (2) that promoting competition in the provision of airport operation services will further the interests of users of air transport services. Promoting competition does not necessarily further the interests of users of air transport services regarding range, availability, continuity, cost and quality because it can lead to a reduction in range, availability, continuity, cost and quality in a bid to either reduce costs or sustain profit margins, or achieve both objectives.

The amendment seeks to ensure that the requirement to promote competition,

“by carrying out the functions in a manner which it considers will promote competition in the provision of airport operation services”,

does not apply where the Civil Aviation Authority considers that to do so would conflict with its primary responsibility of furthering,

“the interests of users of air transport services”.

It would surely be unacceptable for the CAA to have to carry out its functions in a manner that it considers would promote competition when to do so would conflict with what is presumably its key responsibility to further the interests of air transport services, as set out in subsection (1), rather than the interests of the providers of airport operation services. That would defeat what appears to be a declared objective in the Bill for the Civil Aviation Authority as set out in subsection (1).

I hope the Minister will accept the amendment. However, if he does not intend to do so, I hope that he will indicate the current wording in the Bill which will prevent the CAA having to carry out its functions in a manner which it considers will promote competition in the provision of airport operation services if it felt that to do so would conflict with its duty to carry out its function in a manner which it considers will further the interests of users of air transport services. The answer may be that the Government simply believe that promoting competition cannot not be in the interests of users of air transport services, which would be a remarkable view. Alternatively, it may be that the Minister will say that the words “where appropriate” in subsection (2) give the Civil Aviation Authority the power to decide that it will not promote competition in the provision of airport operation services because to do so would conflict with its duty under subsection (1) to carry out its functions in a manner which it considers will further the interests of air transport services. If that is the case, the Minister should give a detailed explanation of what the words “where appropriate” mean in the context of the provisions of subsections (1) and (2) and how they should be interpreted and applied by the Civil Aviation Authority. I beg to move.

[Lord Soley]

I have sympathy with my noble friend. However, I do not have any answers to the problem. It is very difficult. A clause such as Clause 1 imposes certain duties on an organisation—in this case the CAA—which is a normal format in Bills that become law. However, what troubles me about such clauses—and it is not only in this one, although it happens here too—is that there is a lack of clarity, as my noble friend has pinpointed.

Subsection (3)(b) has the catch-all phrase that,

“the need to secure that all reasonable demands for airport operation services are met”.

There is one of these provisions in almost all the Bills of this type that I know. It is put in in case we have forgotten something that the CAA may want or ought to do. It covers just about everything from whether the coffee machine works to whether you have good services in other more fundamental ways.

I wonder at times whether we are being clear with the operator. Presumably the CAA is happy with the clause—I assume that it is; I have not heard anything to the contrary—but I wonder about the clarity of its operation if this becomes law, as it almost certainly will. Does the CAA have enough clarity to know what its duties are if someone challenges it? A catch-all phrase such as that in subsection (3)(b)—that the CAA has to meet the reasonable demands for airport operation services—means that it can say in certain circumstances that it does not think that a particular demand is reasonable. It could rely on the phrase if it received a legal challenge from someone or some organisation.

It is a general point but sometimes we are casual with our legislation and put in catch-all clauses and subsections. We are saying to the operator that it can do what it likes within certain limits. It may be challenged in law, although that is unlikely, and this clause is there in case it is needed. It is a catch-all clause and my noble friend is right to raise this matter as a lack-of-clarity issue.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Clinton-Davis]

I am in entire agreement with what my noble friend said. The impression that might be given is that the unions involved in aviation and aviation interests are unmindful of the environmental situation. A great deal of work has been done on environmental progress, as I well know, having served as president of BALPA for 29 years. I recall meetings of BALPA over the years, and this issue predominates in its influence on events. I know that a great deal of work has been done by aircraft manufacturers, who are not unmindful of their ill effects on the environment and take them into account. The next generation of aircraft will improve the effects of aviation on the environment in future—and so it will go on. This ought to be taken into account in the amendments being moved.

It is right that some emphasis should be given to the work being done on the environment and that it should be included in the legislation. What I can say without any possibility of contradiction is that the use of the word “environment” is not simply a byplay on words but the sign of a real concern, which has been expressed by British Airways, in particular, but also by other aviation interests. It would not be sensible for any aviation interest, whether the companies concerned or the trade unions, to suggest that they are not mindful of the ill effects of aviation on the environment. They are, and it figures very largely in what they have to say on this issue.

[Lord Soley]

I am also sympathetic to these amendments. If I was asked to choose one particular amendment, it would be Amendment 6, because it links up the key organisations, the National Air Traffic Services, the Committee on Climate Change and the department. It is better if we pinpoint what we want the CAA to do and whom it should work with on this, so that we get an overall approach. I support what my noble friends Lady Worthington and Lord Clinton-Davis said; he has great and long experience in this regard.

The reality is that if you had asked the aviation industry 10 or 15 years ago, it would not have taken climate change anywhere near as seriously as it should have done. But it has woken up, and woken up fast. Because the aerospace industry is such an important scientific and technological driver, it has begun to leap ahead. So you now find, as the Minister will know from our several conversations when I have provided him with information on alternative fuels, most notably algae, that it and other drop-in fuels are actually good for the environment. There is real movement there. The new design of aircraft has made them much quieter and more powerful, so you get the A380, which requires a runway that is half the length of that required by the old 747, even though it was much smaller. It is quieter because it is quieter anyway and its fuel efficiency is particularly good. The effect of the emphasis by the aviation industry on improving has been great, and the airport operators have emphasised it too. I think I mentioned at Second Reading that when I spoke at the Airport Operators Association conference in about 2004, very few of them saw trying to reduce emissions from ground operations as a high priority. They now do, and they give it enormous importance. Look at what has been done at Heathrow with electric vehicles. They are all making efforts. However, I always put a cautionary note here because when we talk about electric propulsion, whether for trains, cars or any other operations, we have to remember that electricity in this country is predominantly produced from coal, oil and gas with some nuclear, so it is not as clean as we sometimes like to pretend it is.

Nor are we as good on noise. At Second Reading I mentioned the noise of the trains that went through my former constituency at 100 miles an hour, barely 50 or 100 feet from people’s front and back doors. That went on throughout the night 365 days a year. I have lived next to such railway lines, I have lived under the Heathrow flight path for over 30 years and I have lived by major roads in Glasgow, so I have experience of all of them. In many respects, aviation noise is a bit easier if it is reduced from time to time by runways and flights being switched.

Going back to the comment by my noble friend Lady Worthington on the emissions problem, some of the predictions that have been made about aviation in 50 years’ time are wildly wrong because they are based on the assumption that there will be no scientific development. If you take the scientific development that has been achieved now, leaving aside fuels and just looking at efficiency, you will get nowhere near the figures predicated in the horror scenarios. I say this as someone who has been worried about climate change for years—I wrote my first article on it in the early 1980s—but I have also seen how the green movement got things badly wrong on Brent Spar. It ignored the scientific advice on that and on nuclear power, which I saw as essential to get us out of the hole we were in.

I do not want to turn this into a long debate on the environment, but I want to say, as my noble friends Lady Worthington and Lord Clinton-Davis have said, that if we give the CAA a duty to work with NATS, the department and the Committee on Climate Change we are getting quite a good link-up. We all know about the problem of air traffic control centres in Europe— I mentioned this at Second Reading, so I shall not speak about it at great length—but we have 10 times more than North America for a similar amount of airspace. There is a great fight in Europe about who has to close an air traffic control centre. Believe it or not, no country wants to close one, so we end up flying in doglegs across Europe, which increases fuel use. There is some very encouraging work being done on this, but it would be useful to have in the Bill a requirement to work with the organisations, especially that contained in Amendment 6, which is the amendment I prefer on this.

[Earl Cathcart]

I shall speak to the last three amendments in this group as they follow naturally from what I said at Second Reading. I support Amendments 7 and 13A—Amendment 13A has been substituted for Amendment 12—and will deal with them together as they are identical. It must be right for the CAA to have a duty to have regard to the impact of airports on the environment and local communities.

Chapter 1 sets out new arrangements for the economic regulation of dominant airports in the UK. These new arrangements were largely designed by Professor Cave, who the then Secretary of State appointed in 2009 to propose a new regulatory system for the UK’s airports. The Bill almost entirely follows his advice. I say “almost” because Cave recommended that the CAA, in its role as economic regulator, should have a supplementary duty,

“to have regard to the effect on the environment and on local communities of activities connected with the provision of airport services”.

This is missing from the Bill. As we heard at Second Reading and from the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, every other comparable UK regulator has some form of statutory environmental duty. Why should there be an exception for the aviation industry, especially in view of the serious impacts that airport operations and air transport services can have on the environment and local communities?

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it is for the CAA to work out whether it is in the public interest to publish the information.

I recognise the value of noble Lords’ contributions, particularly those of the noble Lords, Lord Clinton-Davis and Lord Soley, and my noble friend Lord Cathcart. They made very important points and some of the technical points made by the noble Lords, Lord Clinton-Davis and Lord Soley, were very interesting. I share the concerns about the environmental impacts of airport operations and wider aviation. The coalition takes the environmental impacts of aviation very seriously, as I have explained.

Each of these amendments seeks to add to the Bill supplementary duties that relate to environmental or planning issues. Amendments 4, 5, 6, 7 and 13A seek to add supplementary duties to the CAA and the Secretary of State’s airport economic regulation functions, whereas Amendment 69 seeks to add an overarching duty for all the CAA’s functions, including airport economic regulation. This would create a tension with the CAA’s primary duty in Clause 1(1).

I turn first to the amendments that would provide the possibility of the CAA having an overarching environmental duty. The idea is not a new one. The previous Government consulted on a general environmental objective for the CAA, along with parallel proposals for a general consumer and safety objective. No clear support for a general environmental objective was evident. This flowed from Sir Joseph Pilling’s review of the CAA. The responses to the consultation were mixed and did not show clear support for a general environmental objective. For example, concern was expressed about ensuring a clear boundary between environmental policy, which was seen as the role of the Government, and the role of an expert aviation regulator, where safety was seen as the priority. After all, the Environment Agency is the body responsible for regulating environmental issues.

[Lord Soley]

I am looking again at Clause 84. The Minister has indicated that he wants to help the Committee on this issue. When he responds on this at a later stage, will he consider whether Clause 84(2) could apply to all airports? It states:

“The CAA may publish guidelines and advice with a view to reducing, controlling or mitigating adverse environmental effects on civil aviation in the United Kingdom”.

In a way, it refers to the whole of the UK and I am not sure why, with a bit of tweaking, Clause 84 could not cover some of the points that we have made.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, a little inspiration comes and says that it does.