Lord Soley
Main Page: Lord Soley (Labour - Life peer)Department Debates - View all Lord Soley's debates with the Department for Transport
(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Rotherwick
My Lords, I rise with a little concern because I do not want to give any religious affront to anyone. However, maybe we should put this into the context of the rest of the population. It is concerning that the risk of something occurring that was an affront to one person’s religious rights might be put before the safety of a planeload of people. I remind the Minister that at certain times the rest of the population have to undergo strip searches. I unfortunately have rather a lot of prosthetic material inside me, and I am patted down from head to toe every time I go through passport control. That is an affront to my person, but I accept it as a necessity for the safety of other people.
As the noble Lord, Lord Davies, said, we looked at the Sikh population’s concerns about motorcycles and a solution was found, but motorcycle safety issues relate mainly to the driver of the motorcycle. The safety concerns here are about the whole aircraft and the passengers in it. To repeat myself, I do not wish to cause affront to any religious person, but in this context we all have to undergo certain unpleasant procedures, and unfortunately everyone has to suffer in the same way.
Lord Soley
I will not delay the Committee, and I apologise for missing the opening remarks. Religious groups are very good at co-operating with the authorities. They are just as much at risk as the rest of the population. Indeed, Muslims have often been the victims of bombing attacks. So long as the CAA understands that it needs to work with religious leaders, that is the key to this. If religious leaders agree, we will not have the enormous problems to which the noble Lord refers. They are at least as much, and possibly more, concerned than many other citizens, simply because they are so often victims. We forget that.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I share the views of my noble friend Lord Rotherwick. I wholly sympathise with the objective of the amendment, but it is going a bit too far to write it into the Bill in the form that the noble Lord proposes. I have one question for the Minister: what electronic tests and checks, such as X-rays or ultrasound, are available to examine Sikhs wearing turbans that they do not wish to remove?
Lord Soley
Will the noble Lord clarify a point? Much of the concern is about staff morale. I know that this is not directly connected, but morale was a major factor in what happened with the Immigration Service. If this is not handled carefully, staff morale will go down and they will either work to rule—literally—to ensure that they are not guilty of making any mistakes, or they will just feel demoralised. I know that this is a probing amendment, which I am sure has been taken into account, but I have no doubt in my mind that the security issue is so important that staff morale is equally critical.
Earl Attlee
I remind noble Lords that we are in Committee, so we can speak as many times as we like. The noble Lord is absolutely right that staff morale in any organisation is key. This is of course a leadership issue, particularly for the senior personnel at the CAA. It must be remembered that some staff do not work in fixed locations; some of the staff who ensure that security is carried out properly are fairly mobile. But I accept that morale is an absolutely key issue.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I will also speak to Amendments 57 and 60 in this group. The amendments seek to enhance the principle that the Minister accepted in earlier discussions in Committee of the advantages of the openness and transparency of the CAA, and the fact that because it is in a position to garner critical information the nation would benefit significantly if that information were distributed widely.
The first amendment in the group asks the CAA to publish information comparing greenhouse gas emissions resulting from domestic and EU flights with equivalent journeys by other transport means. The public are becoming increasingly aware of their climate change obligations. As the Minister knows, a whole range of activities by other departments makes it incumbent on them or their agencies accurately to identify to the nation the nature of greenhouse gas emissions. The issue runs across government policy. It is one to which the Government in principle subscribe, and we are proud of the fact that we initiated it in government some years ago.
The most obvious issue for people when it comes to transport modes is price. It may be that the very wealthy never bother about relative prices, but I assure the noble Lord that, particularly in these days of economic stringency, large numbers of our fellow citizens look at price first when they travel. That is why low-cost airlines have done so well in recent years. It is also why long-distance coach travel has expanded. Another increasingly important consideration is the cost of their travel in terms of the increased damage to the environment. This information may not be acted on by huge numbers of people in the first years that it is given, but we know that a substantial proportion of the population is clamouring for the information at present. We also know that as anxieties about climate change increase, the public’s need for information to make them fully aware of greenhouse gas emissions will be of surpassing importance. The first amendment therefore relates to information that is not massively difficult for the Government to collect and distribute. We think that it would be very useful to people when choosing travel modes.
Amendment 57 relates to an issue that we have already debated. There is no doubt that people first choose their flight and airline. However, airports differ substantially in how easy it is to park a car, how passengers are processed, and the facilities available, and these issues count for a great deal more than when mass flying first came along. People then were grateful just for the fact that the aircraft was parked in the right place and that they had arrived at the right airport to catch it. The Government have emphasised that they are eager to see competition between airports. Indeed, we have even discussed whether we will see the Government encouraging competition between terminals, an interesting proposition that we considered during our last session in Committee. This side was not entirely convinced about it. If there is going to be competition between airports, people will need to be able to make accurate judgments about the efficacy of airports and the services they offer.
Lord Soley
Does my noble friend agree that if we have competition for airports, we should also have it for train and coach stations? Should we have the same information made available about them?
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I would be a great enthusiast for that. Whatever anxieties people might have about airports, only a small percentage of the population travels by air on a daily basis, while a large number make journeys by train every day. The only thing I would say to my noble friend is that I am not at liberty to introduce rail into the Bill, so he will have to be patient until we can tackle the rail industry with the same forthright approach that has been brought to aviation.
The last amendment in the group relates to the question of air transport services and their impact on greenhouse gas emissions. We know that airports have made considerable strides in reducing their emissions. There was a time when one could well have formed the impression that the largest aircraft taxiing on a runway was unlikely to create as much emissions as the gear being used to tow it to its bay. Sundry vehicles could be seen sauntering around airports, many of them of somewhat archaic design and certainly capable of spouting noxious fumes. We know that airports have already addressed these issues, so why should we not have the information that allows us to appreciate those achievements and thus encourage them to do even better? I beg to move.
Lord Rotherwick
I, too, congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Davies, on his amendments and believe that what he is trying to do is right. I have gone a long way towards trying to produce green energy at home. I came up with a solar farm scheme that was totally supported by my local community—indeed, it participated in it—only to be shunned by Natural England, which suggested that the solar panels could damage the lacewing population by seducing the birds to lay their eggs on them. A month later, another oil tragedy occurred and tens of thousands of animals and birds were killed. I had fallen victim to eco-nimbyism.
On the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Davies, I would be concerned that we might expend too much money and effort recording all those statistics, when our efforts should be directed at resolving the issues. In the excellent briefings that we received in advance of this Bill, we learnt that the CAA has done work on environmental performance—we look forward to the results being published. More effort should surely go into work of that kind, and I hope that amendments such as this will not drain the resources or divert the attention of the CAA away from it.
We heard that it was hoped that continuous-climb operations would reduce fuel burn and emissions by up to 30%. We heard that free routing, which means not having to go from waypoint to waypoint, would reduce journey times, costs and emissions and would promote the flexible use of airspaces, such as military airspace when it is not being used. I hope that the French might manage to do this in their northern sector, because their military airspace there causes huge diversions. While I commend the noble Lord, Lord Davies, on his intentions, I hope that his amendment will not divert us from devoting scarce resources and energies to achieving some difference.
Lord Soley
I go further than the noble Lord in commending the noble Lord, Lord Davies, on the skill with which he presented this amendment. He is right in principle, but the reason for my slightly mischievous intervention is my concern that one always finds provisions such as this being put into aviation Bills and not into train or road transport Bills. The reason for my concern is not that I am for or against the aviation industry, which after many years of kicking and prodding from people such as me has begun to get its act together on presenting its case on climate change and emissions, but that such provisions lead people to believe that you cannot fly but that you can travel as much as you like by road or rail, which is untrue.
I took great issue a few years back with front-page adverts from rail companies about high-speed rail links, saying, “Travel by train and zero emissions”. I thought, “Fantastic! Energy direct from the sun! We have no power stations using coal, oil, gas or nuclear fuel; we just direct it from the sun”. I pick up wonderful magazines, such as that of the RSPB, of which I am very fond, which tell me that we have to stop building airports and flying, and that it is really wicked. I then turn to the back pages and find between 10 and 20 adverts telling me to fly off to exotic places where I can see wonderful birds that are about to be wiped out by climate change. That is the cause of my slightly mischievous intervention on my noble friend’s amendment.
When we talk about building high-speed rail, which I am greatly in favour of, we are talking about producing concrete for a couple of thousand miles of track. To produce one tonne of concrete requires the production of one tonne of CO2—to knock off 10 or 20 minutes of the journey time to Birmingham. We cannot make the case on climate change. We can make it on other grounds and do lots of other things on climate change. I can tell the right reverend Prelate, who made a useful speech, that one piece of good news for him is that many airlines, including BA, Virgin and Air New Zealand, are now flying with a mix of fuels in their tank that includes algae and other environmentally friendly fuels. Algae have a good future. They will never be an entire replacement—they will probably be about 20%—but they are making a difference.
Returning to the amendment, before I get pulled up, the principle is right but my preferred way to address this is that every transport form, road rail or air, ought to be instructed clearly to drive down emissions. That is what matters. I do not object to the amendment in principle, but it has to apply to rail stations and bus stations as well. If I stand in King’s Cross or Euston, I know that it is not oxygen that is being belched out of the train engines or the taxis with their engines running waiting to pick up people; it is CO2. I would prefer that we said that we should drive down emissions across the board. For the past 20 or 30 years, I have never doubted the dangers of climate change—I have written about it from time to time—but we have to be realistic about it. At the moment, the way in which we measure it is not terribly accurate and has a long way to go. All forms of transport—rail, road, air and anything else—should drive down emissions. If we want to put up something to say what we think emissions are in airports, I have no problem with that in principle; I would just extend it to other areas.
Earl Attlee
I will begin with Amendment 57, because it raises different issues from the other two amendments. I am aware, however, that similarly worded amendments were tabled in Committee in the House of Commons and defeated in a Division.
Before turning to the detailed points made by your Lordships, it is important that I emphasise the function of the clause that the amendment would alter. Clause 83 gives the CAA a new and important statutory role in promoting better public information about the aviation industry’s performance. This is intended to improve choice in the market and address what economists call asymmetric information, in that passengers do not always have the information they need to compare the services on offer.
Giving consumers more information on service quality provided by airports and airlines will help to ensure that markets deliver consumer benefits in practice. These issues fall fairly and squarely within the remit that Clause 83 would give to the CAA. Indeed, these may well be issues that the CAA will wish to focus on, though I would not wish to pre-empt its consideration and consultation on the use of these functions.
In our previous sitting, we had a good debate about immigration and baggage handling, but no noble Lord has raised those issues today, so I shall not speak about them unless a noble Lord would like me to.
On Amendments 57 and 60, it is important to emphasise the importance of the clauses that the amendments would alter. I fully agree about the benefits that can be gained by giving passengers clearer and better information about the environmental impact of their travel choices, including the carbon impact. We are committed to ensuring that the transport sector plays a full part in delivering the emissions reductions needed to meet our Climate Change Act targets. The Government have already set stretching, legally binding carbon budgets which will see a 50% reduction in emissions by 2025, compared to 1990 levels, on a path towards an 80% reduction by 2050.
On 1 December, the Government published the Carbon Plan, setting out how we will meet the UK’s legally binding carbon reduction targets over the next two decades and beyond. The Carbon Plan details our ambitious plans to deliver major reductions in carbon emissions from the transport sector and from other sectors over the coming decades. It sets out a radical vision for the almost complete decarbonisation of cars and vans by 2050.
Lord Rosser
Clause 83(1) requires the Civil Aviation Authority to publish,
“such information and advice as it considers appropriate for the purpose of assisting users of air transport services to compare—
(a) air transport services provided to or from a civil airport;
(b) services and facilities provided at a civil airport in the United Kingdom;
(c) services and facilities provided elsewhere in the United Kingdom and used, or likely to be used, in connection with the use of air transport services provided to or from a civil airport”.
This information is to be provided for the benefit of users of air transport services, no doubt in the light of the Civil Aviation Authority’s primary and overriding duty under Clause 1 to carry out its functions,
“in a manner which it considers will further the interests of users of air transport services”,
including in relation to the cost of current airport operation services.
Taking into account that reference to cost, the amendment adds an additional requirement on the Civil Aviation Authority to publish information and advice to assist users of air transport services to compare the full cost of travel for users of air transport services, including all relevant surcharges such users would be expected to pay. Indeed, one might think it surprising that the specific duty to make such information relating to cost available to users is not already in the Bill and is apparently left entirely to the discretion of the CAA, since the Bill says that the CAA should publish such information and advice as it considers appropriate.
The issue of charges and surcharges when travelling by air is increasingly important to those who are travelling, not least because some of the extra charges or potential extra charges are not always as clear as they might be. What might therefore seem to be a relatively cheap budget airline flight may not necessarily prove to be the case as the actual cost of travel can prove much higher than the basic fare quoted by the airline operator—indeed, in certain circumstances, more than if travelling with a mainstream operator.
Reference was made at Second Reading to a survey published in May in a national newspaper that showed that one well known budget airline’s high-season rate for a 20-kilogramme bag to go in the hold was £70 return, and if you did not book online but turned up at the airport with your bag the fee was £130 one way. The survey of budget airlines’ add-on charges showed that it could cost as much as £110 to change the name on a ticket and £120 because your bag weighed 3 kilogrammes over the limit. It also showed that add-on charges apply to a multitude of things covering bags, seat reservations, credit card fees, name-change fees, flight-change fees and fees for taking on special items such as golf clubs. Indeed, when the survey tested costs for a one-week return flight to Malaga for one person taking a 20-kilogramme bag and paying by credit card, it found add-on costs ranging from just under £35 to £82, depending on the low-cost airline operator.
The credit card surcharges to which I have made reference are a significant money-spinner for the airlines. The Office of Fair Trading has said that UK consumers spent £300 million on payment surcharges to airlines in 2010. Even though there is an attempt to clamp down on excessive card fees from the end of this year, there is evidence that airlines may seek to get around that by referring to the charge in future as an administration fee related to costs associated with the booking system.
The purpose of the amendment is not to pass judgment on the apparent proliferation of add-on charges but simply to say that such information on the level of charges and the many different things that they cover, which many might have thought would have been included in the basic fare or not charged for at all, should be made clear so that those using air transport services are able to make accurate comparisons of the full cost of travel, or potential full cost of travel, and not get caught out by a charge that they were not anticipating and of which they were unaware. Indeed, determining the add-on costs is not a straightforward or easy business for those travelling or thinking of doing so, given that some airlines charge flat-rate fees while others levy charges based on the cost of the flight.
The figures that I have quoted reveal a wide disparity in the level and incidence of such charges, and one would have thought it highly appropriate for the Civil Aviation Authority to have a role in ensuring that such information was readily available in an impartial and objective form as part of its duty under Clause 83 to provide information for the benefit of users of air transport services. That is what the amendment seeks to achieve. I beg to move.
Lord Soley
My Lords, I am delighted to support my noble friend without any hesitation. Let us not beat about the bush: one of the worst offenders in this area is Ryanair which, if it continues for much longer as it has been, will have a big photograph of its founder on the way in to the airport and you will have to pay to bow to it. He is adding costs and charges that are totally unreasonable. He is by far the worst offender but there are others too. The time is long overdue when all the costs of a flight should be properly advertised. It is very important. We are expecting people at the moment to book tickets when they do not really know what the full cost is and, as my noble friend has indicated, when they get to the airport they suddenly discover that the cost is infinitely more than they thought it would be, because of extra bags and taking special items on board. A short while ago we had a dreadful incident with regard to wheelchairs. All this is utterly appalling and utterly wrong.
I do not think we should mess about on these issues. All airlines should be made to set out all the charges that are imposed on customers so that they know in advance what they are going to have to pay for their tickets. My noble friend’s amendment is wholly good. If the Minister cannot accept it as it is, I hope that he can at least ensure that it goes into the Bill in some form. These practices need to be stopped.
Lord Rotherwick
I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, on his amendment. We all have friends who have encountered this problem. When they think they have secured low-cost tickets, they suddenly come across these hideous charges. My wife uses low-cost airlines and constantly comes across these problems. The matter needs to be addressed.
Lord Soley
I am slightly worried about the direction of travel of the Minister’s comments. It is one thing to say that they must publish information under Article 23; it is another to say that they are right up front so that a passenger knows. I do not believe that Ryanair has been giving true and full information to people in a way that enables them to assess the full cost, rather than flicking over it in the small print—although I accept that the print will not necessarily be that small. I would be happier if there were some proactive way to intervene—for the CAA, or whoever, to look at it and say, “This is utterly unacceptable and has to stop”. As far as I know—I have not tried it myself recently but this is what I have been told by passengers recently—this is still happening with Ryanair.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am sure that many noble Lords share the noble Lord’s view of that airline but, on the issue of publication, it is up to the CAA to determine what to publish, taking into consideration the results of the consultation.
On the second issue of payment surcharges, like the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, I share consumers’ concerns about the high level of payment surcharges applied by some companies and that often people are not aware of the level of these charges until almost at the end of the booking process. That makes it difficult to compare prices and shop around for a good deal. It is not right that a business should try to hide the true cost of its services by implying that its prices are made up of elements beyond its control when they are not.
Your Lordships will be aware that consumers are already protected against misleading pricing under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations. Additionally, on 23 December 2011 the Government announced our intention to consult on implementing the payment surcharges provision of the consumer rights directive ahead of the June 2014 deadline. We intend to issue a consultation in the summer to seek views on the timing of implementation and other details on how the provision should be applied. Responses to the consultation will inform our decision on timing and our guidance to businesses.
I hope that it is clear from what I have said that the intent of the amendment is already implicit in the primary duty and that effective mechanisms are already in place to secure the result intended. Given that, I hope that at the appropriate time the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I reiterate to the Committee that the Government accept that there is a problem. We are determined to deal with it but we need to do so in the right way. The noble Lord asked me about what I said about Article 23. Perhaps it is worth carefully going over it because it was carefully drafted. The CAA has been working with airlines to ensure compliance with this requirement and considers that the airlines that it worked with are now compliant with Article 23. That implies that the airlines that it did not work with are not compliant.
Lord Soley
That is the point: some of them are not. I could name Ryanair, but there are others too. Some of this is down to the psychological trick where, as you go through your booking form, usually on a computer, you tick the “something extra”. Each one on its own seems small; you get to the position where you enter your card number and book the flight; you say, “All right, I will go ahead”; and then you add it all up afterwards and it is painful. My noble friend Lord Rosser is right: we need to get much tougher on this.
I have not looked at Article 23. I will do so and I am grateful to the Minister for drawing it to our attention, but I have a strong feeling that unless there is a tough ruling on this we will not get what we want, or not for a very long time.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord’s analysis. However, it is open to and up to the CAA to determine how it will publicise the situation. It may choose to report on the headline price of a ticket offered by an airline and then say, “But just before you click, you will find out that it is three times more expensive”. It is a matter for the CAA to say how it is going to do this.
It may be helpful if I say what the CAA is already doing in this area. The CAA has researched the fees and charges of the top 24 airlines operating from the UK, including the cost of paying by credit card, booking an assigned seat and taking various weights of hold luggage, and has published a comparison table. This table provides consumers shopping around with the ability to see what charges they might face, and the ability to use that information to help them decide which airline to travel with, based on their individual needs. The CAA has also recently updated all the information and advice available to passengers through its website, in order to give pre-shopping advice as well as advice on resolving travel problems.
I am aware that I myself have never thought of looking at the CAA’s website when considering purchasing an airline ticket. Perhaps there is a lack of knowledge among consumers that this information is available.
Lord Soley
I do not think that the Minister is alone in not looking at the CAA website before booking his ticket; that is fairly common for most people. It is clear that the CAA is hearing this debate now. Could we ask it, through the Minister, to report to him on what it is doing so that he can let the Committee know? It is the sleight of hand by some of these airlines that needs to be addressed. As a Member of this House, I would like a very clear response from the CAA about what it is going to do because the situation is unsatisfactory.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am fairly confident that the CAA will be listening very carefully to what the Committee has to say.