Scrap Metal Dealers Bill
Earl Attlee Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
“( ) This Act expires at the end of 5 years beginning with the day on which section 1 comes into force.”
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 2 and 3. These three government amendments relate to the expiry and review of the Act. The Government made a commitment during the Bill’s Report stage in the other place to lay these amendments and I hope that noble Lords will view them in good favour.
Amendment 1 inserts an expiry clause into the Bill whereby the Act will automatically expire five years after commencement of the licensing requirement in Clause 1. Clause 18 contains a review provision and I would expect the Government of the day to carefully consider the outcome of the statutory review and bring forward an appropriate response to provide some long-term certainty for the regulation of the scrap metal industry.
While I am sure that the industry would prefer longer-term certainty, the review and subsequent expiry will see early action if this regulation is proving costly, difficult, or ineffective. That said, the Government are confident that the provisions in the Bill will have the desired effect and that any subsequent legislation will be based around this regulatory regime. However, having listened to the arguments made during the Bill’s passage in the other place for the inclusion of an expiry clause, we agreed to its inclusion, which is why we have laid this amendment today so that the Bill will automatically expire five years after commencement.
Amendment 2 modifies the review clause from five to three years. The statutory review will require the Secretary of State to assess the extent to which the Act’s objectives have been achieved and a shorter review period will therefore allow this consideration to be made at an earlier stage. This review will play a pivotal role in the development of future legislation and tie in with the timetable for bringing forward any new legislation after five years.
Finally, Amendment 3 reduces the scope of the review to remove the need to assess whether the Act should be repealed. This requirement is no longer necessary because Amendment 1 inserts a sunset clause—the expiry clause—and the Act will therefore automatically be repealed after five years. The review should, however, focus on assessing the effectiveness of the regime and recommending any future legislation required.
These three amendments will achieve the right overall framework for the future of this regulatory regime and allow for the Government of the day to bring forward effective long-term regulation following an assessment of the effectiveness of the Bill before us. I beg to move.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, I hold the noble Earl in the highest regard, so I know he will not take personally the criticism that I going to direct at the amendment which he has moved this morning. In my time here, I can recall a number of occasions when attempts have been made in this House to add a sunset clause to a Bill that has come to us from another place. In every case, these clauses had been felt necessary in order to improve an otherwise unsatisfactory Bill—often to insert a safeguard into a measure that was controversial or threatened civil liberties and human rights. That is not what we have in front of us this morning. This amendment will not improve the Bill; indeed, it will damage it in two material respects.
First, passing the amendment will delay the Bill’s enactment, as it would have to go back to the other place to get the amendment agreed. Given the track record of a small number of Conservative MPs who routinely try to use procedural devices to block Private Members’ Bills, who can be certain that those who threatened to talk out this Bill on 9 November—or some of their friends—would not attempt to do the same thing again? If, however, we pass the Bill unamended, it would not need to return to the House of Commons and could obtain Royal Assent almost immediately.
My second objection to the sunset clause is that it sends the worst possible signal to all those who are desperately attempting to tackle and defeat the metal thieves. Heroic efforts have been made in the last year by the British Transport Police and the civil police, local authorities, trade associations, reputable scrap metal dealers, the churches, the War Memorials Trust, the energy companies, Network Rail and the train operating companies and the Home Office. They have all worked tirelessly to bring down the incidence of metal theft, catch the offenders and ensure convictions.
As I said at Second Reading, as a result of all this activity, the British Transport Police told me that,
“there has been a decrease in reported metal theft of 52%”.—[Official Report, 30/11.2012; col. 412.]
There have been numerous press reports of successful prosecutions and convictions. In my own area recently, we saw the conviction of all eight members of a Romanian gang which had travelled from Birmingham to the Cotswolds to steal engineering cable from the railway worth nearly half a million pounds on the line between Evesham and Moreton-in-Marsh—two towns not known for their incidence of high crime. How can it make sense for this House now to agree an amendment which would take this vital new law off the statute book altogether in five years’ time and give whoever is in government then the headache of having to pass such a law all over again?
Thanks to the diligence of the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, and the Commons sponsor, Richard Ottaway MP, we have an excellent Bill in front of us, which, as every noble Lord who spoke on 30 November believes, will do the job expected of it. I am aware that the Minister in another place gave a commitment to give this House the opportunity to consider the addition of a sunset clause—not to improve the Bill, but in order to buy off the two Members who habitually cause trouble for Private Members’ Bills. The noble Earl has fulfilled that commitment by moving that amendment this morning. It does mean that the House is obliged to accept it.
Lord Rosser
A three-year review does not mean that it automatically ceases after five years, which is the effect of the sunset clause. The two are different. The first is a review: the sunset clause means that the Bill ceases to exist unless further action is taken.
What guarantees will there be that the Bill, if the amendment is agreed, will not be subject to similar threats of being talked out that it has already experienced when it returns to the Commons once again as a Private Member’s Bill. It could be talked out either by the two Conservative Members already involved, who have after all already tasted blood, or through various amendments to the amendment that we are now considering by one or more other Members who might be less than impressed with what has already happened in the Commons and the way that the Government have dealt with it. They may feel that the Government should now be left with a choice of either having no Bill or bringing forward their own Bill.
The noble Earl does not know what will happen to the Bill if it has to go back to the Commons because it has been amended in your Lordships’ House. He cannot give any guarantees, since I assume that the Government are not at this stage thinking of taking the Bill over.
Agreeing to the amendment will create further delay and uncertainty for this Private Member’s Bill which, once again, will run the risk of being talked out in the Commons. The way to avoid further delay to the Bill becoming an Act and the way to avoid the uncertainty caused by the risk that it will be talked out if it has to return to the Commons, is to not agree to the amendment or, far better, for the noble Earl to withdraw his amendment.
Failure on the part of the noble Earl to do that will surely show that addressing internal party problems is of more concern to the Government than securing the passage of the Bill as quickly as possible in the interests of all those who have suffered the consequences of metal thefts, whether from our war memorials, churches or railways. I urge the noble Earl to withdraw the amendment and let us get this Bill to the statute book as quickly as possible and not delay unnecessarily. There is no dishonour in this House in doing that.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who contributed to this important debate. First, the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, talked about the need to use Private Members’ Bills. The noble Lord knows perfectly well how difficult it is to secure time for a government Bill. My noble friend Lady Browning’s comments reminded me of my Road Traffic (Enforcement Powers) Bill that I ran as a Private Member’s Bill in your Lordships’ House on behalf of the Labour Government and the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. I experienced similar problems trying to get the Bill through the House of Commons because of the sadly deceased Mr Eric Forth.
There is no benefit to be gained from inadequate reform of the scrap metal industry. The clause would allow for the system of regulation to be fully reviewed and assessed and for the government of the day to re-legislate in five years. The Government are not making these amendments because we do not have faith in the Bill delivering what is required. We believe that the Bill will be effective and that the review will bear testament to that.
How the House of Commons decides to handle a Bill is clearly a matter for that House. I agree that the House of Commons has problems in the way that it handles Private Members’ legislation—in a way that we do not. I do not accept that this Bill would be at an unacceptable risk if we sent it back to the other place amended. The Government are fulfilling their commitment, made in the House of Commons. We expect individual Members of the House of Commons to fulfil their commitments.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, if the Bill is amended as my noble friend proposes and it then goes back to the other place and there are difficulties, will the Government take it on and ensure that it reaches the statute book?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am confident that individual Members of another place will undertake to meet their commitments. Perhaps I may carry on.
We should not risk the House of Commons being reluctant in the future to accept government commitments in the circumstances of private legislation. My noble friend Lady Browning talked about honour and the word of a politician. How right she is to do so. We all know in our hearts what the right thing to do is. The noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, is correct in what she says—
Lord West of Spithead
My Lords, the noble Earl says that we all know in our hearts what the right thing to do is. As has already been said, the Government fully support this Bill—it has the support of all parties—so all this amendment is doing is delaying it and introducing real uncertainty as to what will happen to it in the future.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I will come on to talk about the future, but I am confident that it is not a problem.
As I was saying, the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, is correct as usual, but that is trumped by the need for the House of Commons to be able to rely on government assurances made in respect of a private Bill.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, does the noble Earl intend to tell us that the Government gave an assurance as to the result of your Lordships’ consideration or merely that the Government would table an amendment, which they have in honour fulfilled. However, it is for this House to decide. The Government cannot give a commitment that your Lordships will vote in favour of that commitment.
Earl Attlee
The noble Baroness is, of course, absolutely and precisely correct, but my advice to the Committee is to accept this amendment.
I was asked whether there are any plans for the Government to include the contents of this Private Member’s Bill in a government Bill. The current Government do not have any such plans and it would be for the Government of the day to decide on the most suitable legislative vehicle to relegislate in this area. I would also point out in response to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, when he identified problems with renewing legislation, that as a defence spokesman he will know that the Armed Forces Act has to be renewed by order every year and by Act of Parliament every five years, but that does not mean that members of the Armed Forces do not have confidence in the legal arrangements of the Armed Forces.
I was asked the broad question of whether the Bill could not simply be re-enacted after five years. The outcome of the review could well recommend that the Bill meets its requirements and should be continued after five years. The Government of the day would have to make the case back before Parliament; that could be one approach that is taken. The principle of parliamentary sovereignty means that any future Parliament can legislate as it sees fit at any given time, even if this means acting inconsistently with the previous parliamentary intention.
Noble Lords will be aware that provisions to extend the life of a Bill are relatively easy to make, either by a Bill with a tightly worded Long Title or through an appropriate clause in a rather wider Bill. That would meet the need and it is not a difficult thing to do, as experienced noble Lords well know. In answer to my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale, I have already explained how the review system will work. Once the Bill becomes law, the fact that it was a Private Member’s Bill will make no difference. My noble friend Lord Forsyth asked whether, if an amendment is not agreed, a Bill can go to Royal Assent. Yes, of course it can, as all noble Lords well understand. If we do not agree this amendment, the Bill will go on to Royal Assent and become law. That is simple fact. However, future government assurances about Private Members’ Bills will carry a lot less weight, and I am not convinced that that is in anyone’s interests. Therefore, I beg to move.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Before my noble friend moves the amendment, could he explain the principle that a Bill will carry less weight when it has been passed by both Houses?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, perhaps my words were not clear. I did not mean that the Bill would carry less weight, but that a government assurance made at the Dispatch Box in respect of private legislation would carry less weight. If future Ministers experience the same problems in the House of Commons, they will not be able to get out of the problem so easily.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I apologise for interrupting my noble friend once again. My noble friend Lady Browning, who is a lady of considerable integrity, has done what she said she would, the Government have done what they said they would do, and their assurances have been met. However, neither the Government nor the movers of a Bill can anticipate and pre-empt the decision of a House of Parliament.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I have already agreed exactly that point with the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington. The Committee can decide this amendment as it pleases, but my strong advice to the Committee is to agree to it.
Marine Navigation (No. 2) Bill
Earl Attlee Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Wilcox for her concise and cogent introduction to her Bill; the House would expect nothing less. I also thank all noble Lords who have taken part in its Second Reading today. The Bill covers a variety of issues affecting maritime activity, but all are focused on giving responsible organisations greater freedom to act to maintain and enhance safe and efficient operations.
I recognise that some noble Lords have concerns about the potential impact of one or two clauses in the Bill. It is right that we should give careful consideration to those concerns. My noble friend Lord Selsdon made one of his usual fascinating speeches; they are not to be missed and are essential reading and viewing.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked why the Prince of Wales’s consent was not required for this Bill. The House authorities confirmed to parliamentary counsel that the Prince of Wales’s consent was not required for this Bill, so it was not sought. The Prince’s consent was required for the previous Bill because it made provision about lighthouse authorities and therefore directly affected the Duchy as the local lighthouse authority for the Isles of Scilly. That provision is not part of this Bill. As the noble Lord acknowledged, the Bill does not impose measures on harbour or local lighthouse authorities; it enables them to seek changes to their powers if they choose.
Pilotage is a profession that emerged in the earliest days of maritime trade, in recognition of the need to provide valuable ships and their cargo with safe passage into harbours or through dangerous waters. The Rolls of Oleron—a code of sea laws first promulgated by Eleanor of Aquitaine in the 12th Century and introduced in England during the reign of King Richard I—exacted severe penalties on any pilot who lost a ship in his care. He was to be beheaded. Whether this draconian punishment served to improve standards of pilotage, I could not possibly say. I can say, however, that it forms no part of our current pilotage legislation—the Pilotage Act 1987. Although this may be an extreme example of an earlier legal provision now deemed redundant, it is reflective of the tides of change and the need to modernise legislation on occasion. This Bill contains such modernising legislation.
The 1987 Act gave the function of managing pilotage services to individual Competent Harbour Authorities, which are best placed to understand the potential dangers to shipping in their own waters. This Bill would give the CHA greater control over Pilotage Exemption Certificates, the PEC mechanism. My noble friend Lord Caithness talked about some of the worries that people had when he introduced that legislation.
My noble friend Lady Wilcox eloquently explained the purpose of PECs and I only wish to add that we in the Government consider that PECs are a proven, sensible and safe mechanism that forms an important element of pilotage provision in the waters of a CHA. Nothing in this Bill reduces the standards by which a PEC applicant is to be assessed. It concerns only eligibility.
The evidence from the Chamber of Shipping is that this measure could provide great encouragement to ambitious deck officers in the UK ferry industry. Opening up the path of progression, subject to careful examination, rewards both dedication and hard work and helps the ferry industry to prepare the next generation of senior officers.
The noble Lord, Lord Chidgey, suggested potential pilotage problems on the Humber. In making his argument against Clause 2, I did not recall him explaining why the CHA would issue a PEC to an incompetent person. As I said before, the clause concerns only eligibility. Further it is not clear to me why an officer can be first mate on one ship and have a PEC for a particular ship and harbour but if, for some reason, he becomes second mate on a similar ship, plying to the same harbour, he cannot have a PEC. The law, as it stands, also means that you can have only two PEC holders on any ship.
The noble Lords, Lord Berkeley and Lord Greenway, touched on the problem of the shipping industry being under intense commercial pressure and we know they are quite right. Like the noble Lord, Lord Chidgey, the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, does not explain why Clause 2 in my noble friend’s Bill requires a CHA to lower the standards of pilots. The clause concerns only eligibility. The noble Lord also questioned whether a second mate on a dredger would have the necessary qualifications. The answer is that the CHA will not grant a PEC if the officer is not competent of piloting that ship in that harbour.
My noble friend Lord Caithness talked about the definition of a deck officer. Many years ago I came across the term “deck officer” and I have no difficulty at all in understanding what we mean by it. I am sure that my noble friend Lady Wilcox will take comfort from the support of my noble friend who, as he pointed out, is a former shipping Minister with considerable experience. My noble friend teased the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, on the effect of the passage of the Bill if we did not include Clause 2. I thought I heard the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, say that he hoped that the Bill will indeed pass.
I turn to harbour directions. Since 2000, the Department for Transport has encouraged harbour authorities to secure powers of general direction to support the effective management of vessels in their harbour waters. This recommendation has always been a prominent feature in the Port Marine Safety Code, the non-statutory guidance produced by the department and Maritime and Coastguard Agency in association with representatives from the ports industry, trades unions, and other maritime experts. Given that ports have long been advised to seek this power in order to manage risk effectively, it is very welcome that this Bill seeks to provide a straightforward mechanism to do so.
The Royal Yachting Association has been doing sterling work with the ports associations and the Chamber of Shipping to develop non-statutory safeguards. A code of conduct on harbour directions is envisaged and a draft version is already well advanced. At their most recent meeting on Monday 14 January, discussion focused on a few drafting tweaks that are still required and I expect it will be possible to report further progress at Committee stage. This is a perfect illustration of how the mature maritime sector can be trusted to get on with the job without requiring government interference.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, talked about problems of the Port of Dundee applying directions to recreational users on passage plans. The Port of Dundee confirms that it is its intention that this direction will apply to work boats and not to recreational users. Full consultation took place and changes to directions were made where necessary.
The General Lighthouse Authorities—the GLAs—are three distinguished organisations with proud histories of serving all those who navigate around these islands. The safety of mariners is their raison d’être and this goes beyond their statutory duty of providing aids to navigation. Just last autumn, a Northern Lighthouse Board ship passing St Andrews spotted red flares sent up from a fishing vessel taking on water. The incident ended happily, thanks to the alertness and presence of mind shown by the GLA crew.
The three clauses relating to the GLAs would confirm operational practices of benefit to the modern mariner and allow the GLAs to undertake additional commercial work. In doing so, it would enable the generation of additional income to pay for the GLAs’ essential role in providing marine aids to navigation around Great Britain and Ireland. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord MacKenzie of Culkein for giving us a more detailed insight into this activity.
I am always grateful to have the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, on my side, but we are fortunate to have several experts available in your Lordships' House. The noble Lord pointed out that GLAs’ commercial operations have to show a profit. I also point out that the Department for Transport improves significant contracts so matters cannot get out of control with large loss-making contracts undercutting commercial operations. That simply would not happen.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, talked about the potential for PEC holders on a ferry, perhaps, losing experience because there were several PEC holders on the given ship. My understanding is that the PEC holders are reassessed by the competent harbour authority every 12 months. If they started to get rusty, they would experience difficulties in renewing their PEC.
I trust that I have provided some reassurance to noble Lords that the Bill would protect and enhance marine safety and that there are real safeguards to ensure that the powers of harbour direction are used appropriately. I join my noble friend Lady Wilcox in commending it to the House.
Public Service Pensions Bill
Earl Attlee Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
That it be an instruction to the Committee of the Whole House to which the Public Service Pensions Bill has been committed that they consider the Bill in the following order:
Clause 1, Schedule 1, Clause 2, Schedule 2, Clause 3, Schedule 3, Clauses 4 to 15, Schedule 4, Clause 16, Schedule 5, Clause 17, Schedule 6, Clause 18, Schedule 7, Clauses 19 to 24, Schedule 8, Clauses 25 and 26, Schedule 9, Clauses 27 and 28, Schedule 10, Clauses 29 and 30, Schedule 11, Clauses 31 to 38.
Airports: Capacity
Earl Attlee Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Spicer
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the average percentage of total capacity used at London’s commercial airports over the past six months.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, between May and October 2012 there were 525,000 commercial air transport movements at the five largest commercial London airports: Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, Luton and London City. These air transport movements used around 86% of the available runway capacity.
Lord Spicer
My Lords, why are we allowing the London airport system to run out of capacity?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, we are not. We have set up the South East Airports Task Force to look at short-term measures to gain some capacity at Heathrow. In the rather longer term, we have the aviation policy framework, which we are committed to publishing in March 2013. Finally, we have set up the Airports Commission, headed up by Sir Howard Davies.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Is it not likely that non-British airports will heartily welcome the Government’s unpardonable delay in selecting an international hub airport, whether at Heathrow or elsewhere? What does the Minister say about that?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, this problem was not unforeseeable. It has been coming for many years, including when noble Lords opposite were in government. We need to get a consensus and find a lasting solution that will survive a change in Governments.
Lord Bradshaw
I hope that the noble Earl will ponder the following: a great deal of the heat in the debate about air capacity is caused by the bidding war that has broken out between various airports and airlines. Will the noble Earl ensure that the Davies commission will, to the best of its ability, be governed by the fact that we should create extra capacity only when a real need is demonstrated?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am confident that the Airports Commission, headed up by Sir Howard, will consider all relevant matters.
Lord Soley
The Minister will know my opinion on this but I put it to him very strongly that just about everyone in business has been saying that delaying this infrastructure project is crucially bad for the British economy. It is the delay that is causing the problem. If the Government picked up the previous Government’s policy and continued with it we would not be in this situation now. That would not cost a single penny of public money. Please, please move on this for the sake of the British economy, investment and jobs.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it is important for businesses to put their own submissions in to the Airports Commission, as I think the noble Lord has already done himself.
Lord Elton
My Lords, institutions can scarcely run at 100% capacity, any more than you can have 100% full employment. There has to be some slack in the system. How long does my noble friend think that the 14% capacity that he says is now available will last? What steps are being taken to meet the moment when it is full?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, DfT aviation demand forecasts suggest that with no new runway Gatwick Airport could become full from around 2018 and Stansted from around 2030. That is why we have set up the Airports Commission to advise us on viable options for solving this problem.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
My Lords, to come back to the original Question, there is a 14% underuse capacity in the five major London and south-east airports. What plans do the Government have to utilise that capacity, given the failing to direct daily flights to some of the major economies around the world and new developing economies? What can be done immediately and what will the Government do?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it is important to understand that we are very well connected by Heathrow Airport. It is connected to the rest of the world better than most other places in Europe.
Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, my noble friend’s Question referred specifically to commercial airports, but not far from Heathrow lies Northolt—principally a Royal Air Force airport but used for some other domestic and international semi-commercial flights. What problems and constraints exist in the further use or development of Northolt to add value to what otherwise would be part of the same hub of London airports?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I understand that there are some difficulties with the runway orientation of Northolt airfield. I am sure that that is a factor that the Airports Commission will take into consideration.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, in his opening response the noble Earl referred to the fact that a consensus was necessary to make progress over the considerable period of time needed to expand airport capacity. Although he quoted 86% for the south-east airports, we know that Heathrow is at over 99% utilisation and has no scope at all for development. The Opposition have offered to the Government for more than a year now the opportunity to establish a consensus by joint talks. Could the noble Earl at least persuade his ministerial colleagues that these should take place, and that they would be aided by a somewhat earlier timetable for the commission’s report? Why is it having to report after the general election when the urgency of the situation is apparent to everyone?
Earl Attlee
The noble Lord makes a strong point. The Airports Commission will report with its initial findings by the end of the year. I would be delighted to talk to the noble Lord privately when we get that initial report. But it takes time to do the job properly.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I wonder if the Minister might remind the House that capacity at Heathrow is for 90 million passengers per year. Currently it has only 70 million passengers a year, because airlines are using small aircraft in order to keep their slots alive and are developing most of their flights within the UK and near continent, not for the long distance routes. Will he explain to the House that capacity is far more complex and that there is a great deal of capacity with the potential for much better utilisation already in London?
Earl Attlee
I agree with my noble friend that if you use bigger aircraft you can get more passengers through Heathrow for the same number of flights.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, what proportion of the capacity at Heathrow do the Government estimate will be released if their plans to build High Speed 2—initially to Birmingham and then to Manchester and Leeds—are fulfilled? Is it not the case that when high-speed railways are built on the continent, domestic aviation diminishes and as a result there is spare capacity at airports?
Earl Attlee
The noble Lord makes an important point, but it will not solve our underlying problem that we will still eventually run out of capacity at the London airports.
Public Bodies (Abolition of the Railway Heritage Committee) Order 2013
Earl Attlee Excerpts(11 years, 7 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
That the draft order laid before the House on 29 October be approved.
Relevant documents: 10th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, 15th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to say a few words in prime time about the draft order to abolish the Railway Heritage Committee and transfer its functions to the board of trustees of the Science Museum. The need for the order arose from the Public Bodies Act taken through your Lordships’ House by my noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach.
First, the Government fully recognise the valuable work that the RHC has carried out over a number of years in indentifying and designating railway artefacts and records of historical significance so that they can be preserved for future generations. During its life, the RHC has designated more than 1,300 artefacts and many thousands of important historical documents, including the Brunel drawings of the Great Western Railway, the collection of British Transport Films, paintings by Terence Cuneo, coaches from the Royal Train, a travelling Post Office sorting van and the GNER archive.
Apart from its secretary, the members of the RHC are unpaid, giving their time free of charge. Their passion and enthusiasm are noteworthy, providing a good example of the volunteering spirit that is so vital in preserving this country’s rich railway heritage. As your Lordships will be aware, the Government were originally minded to abolish the designation function along with the RHC on the basis that no equivalent protection exists for other transport sectors. However, the Government do listen and were persuaded of the unique position that railways play in this country’s heritage and, as a result, agreed to the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, during the legislative passage of the Public Bodies Act that the RHC’s designation function should not be lost but instead transferred to the board of trustees of the Science Museum.
There are many benefits to that approach, not least of which will be the streamlining of the process by transferring it to a larger group, the Science Museum Group, where economies of scale can be utilised by employing resources across a wider range of duties. The Government carried out a targeted six-week consultation which revealed that, although there was significant support for the RHC, the majority of respondents appeared to be pleased with the proposal to maintain the designation function and transfer it to the board of trustees of the Science Museum. Many recognised the need for rationalisation of the functions or expressed a view that the exercise of the designation function is more important than the vehicle through which it is delivered. There was strong support for the board of trustees of the Science Museum being ideally placed to take on the role in future, especially if it appoints external panel members to ensure that there is no conflict of interest between it carrying out the designation function and its role as a governing body of the National Railway Museum.
The Government are determined to reduce unnecessary bureaucracy, overheads and management layers wherever possible, and believe that this is a good example of where these objectives can be achieved. The RHC’s main committee and three sub-committees will be replaced by a railway heritage designation advisory body with a chair and around 10 members, a number of which will be drawn from the RHC to ensure a smooth transition of expertise. I am pleased to report that a shadow version of this advisory board has already been set up, with its first meeting having taken place on 22 November. Also, once the designation functions have been transferred to the board of trustees of the Science Museum, they will be governed by the provisions of the National Heritage Act 1983, which should allow the board of trustees greater flexibility to create a more efficient organisation.
The cost of running the RHC is currently about £100,000 a year, which would be largely reduced and absorbed within the existing budget of the Science Museum Group. The back-office functions will be more streamlined, as they will be absorbed within the existing structure of the Science Museum Group. It is anticipated that the appointment of the external, non-Science Museum Group members to the advisory board will negate any potential conflict of interest between the board of trustees of the Science Museum carrying out the designation function and its role as the governing body of the National Railway Museum. We are confident that this will ensure that the National Railway Museum does not receive unfair preference. I understand that most members of the new advisory group will be external to the Science Museum Group and will include representation from Scotland and Wales.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I am somewhat surprised that the Minister did not think that there would be a view from the opposition Front Bench on this issue, particularly given the Government’s record in handling this matter. Speeches from both sides of the House have clearly stated the advantages of preserving volunteers and their work, the spirit that they bring to that work and their achievements, which are on record. When they swept this particular element of largely volunteer work and constructive work by communities, the Government were seeking to establish the great society.
Lord Davies of Oldham
I am grateful to my noble friend, but he will forgive me if I feel that the challenges that we ought to put down today are not to former members of the Cabinet but to Ministers who speak in this House on behalf of members of the Cabinet still exercising power at present. The Minister should recognise that the contributions today have shown how necessary it was for him to make the shift that has been made regarding the original intention of abolition, and not to care little about what happens subsequently. It is quite clear that the Government have understood that necessary work needs to go on, but my noble friend Lord Faulkner has identified where they are still falling short of giving a guarantee that this work will be carried out as thoroughly as it has been done in the past. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will give some clear answers to my noble friend, because the anxieties of the House are manifest.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am grateful for the kind words from the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester. Noble Lords supporting him seemed to be a bit more strident than the noble Lord himself. As your Lordships will be aware, I am also very keen on the preservation of our country’s transport heritage, particularly road transport vehicles. Sadly, I do not have enough time to get involved with railway preservation. However, no one should underestimate the sterling work of the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner. You can have thousands of volunteers on the ground, as referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, but you need the support of people such as the noble Lord to skilfully interface with central government.
In moving his amendment, the noble Lord talked about the scope of the order. The noble Lord will know that Ministers gave very careful consideration to these matters but, for the reasons outlined in my opening remarks, it was not possible to accede to his request. However, we recognise that the structure of the rail industry has changed in recent years, and indeed a number of respondents to the consultation indicated that they should be included in the scope of the designation powers.
Wider changes to the way in which the designation process operates, which would require changes to the 1996 Act, would also be beyond the scope of what can be done in relation to the RHC under the Public Bodies Act. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport will carry out a review within three years, after the designation function has transferred to the board of trustees of the Science Museum, in order to establish whether further bodies, or classes of bodies, should be included within the scope of the 1996 Act and whether the burden on bodies, as a result of the exercise of the designation function, can be reduced.
The noble Lord referred to the problem of well meaning members of the public and the benefits of having the RHC, or an equivalent, to determine these designation matters. I agree entirely. The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, with whom I have never debated before, spoke about the work and the need for the designation function. He is quite right—that is why I was able to persuade my right honourable friend the Secretary of State to retain the designation function.
The noble Lord, Lord Snape, made a great speech but seemed to have missed the point that his noble friend had saved the designation function. It will carry on, as requested by my noble friend Lord Cormack. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked what the difference was between the RHC and the Science Museum Group. It is not just about the costs but about improving efficiency and effectiveness.
I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, will feel free to withdraw his amendment and that the House will agree my order.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, it has been a very interesting debate and I thank every noble Lord who has taken part in it. In all parts of the Chamber, there have been impressive demonstrations of support for the work of the Railway Heritage Committee, for the cause of railway heritage as a whole and, indeed, for the role of our railways in our society. I thank every noble Lord who has participated.
As I shall be playing a part in the work of the Science Museum advisory board, I hope very much that I will be able to satisfy the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and my noble friend Lord Snape that in future we will do as good a job as the Railway Heritage Committee has done. I am particularly pleased that there has been such praise for the work of the Railway Heritage Committee, which I have not been a part of for the past three years. I am sure that the members of that committee will be very gratified that there is such support for the work that they have done and that their efforts are being appreciated. I have to tell noble Lords that back in 2010 they did not feel that they were being appreciated and it appeared that the committee was being abolished almost by a stroke of the pen.
My noble friend Lord Snape referred to the sterling work by Mr Michael Portillo in saving the Settle to Carlisle line. If he is interested, and if I might be allowed a small commercial, your Lordships will find in the Library a book, of which I am the co-author, that was published last week called Holding the Line: How Britain’s Railways Were Saved, in which the saving of the Settle to Carlisle line is described in some detail.
Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation
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Lord Kennedy of Southwark
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to review the Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation in order to support businesses that make biofuels from locally sourced waste and sell it close to where it is produced.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the Government strongly believe that the renewable transport fuel obligation delivers effective and sustainable market-based support to the biofuels industry. The RTFO provides additional support for biofuels made from waste by awarding two renewable transport fuel certificates for each litre supplied. The Department for Transport has committed to a review of the double certificate scheme and the support provided by the RTFO in 2013.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
I thank the noble Earl for his response. There is a real problem here in that small, green businesses making biodiesel from waste products collected locally and sold from their premises are just not getting a fair deal. Will he agree to raise the matter with the Secretary of State for Transport, and will he facilitate a meeting for me with the Secretary of State and relevant officials on this matter?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, one of the concerns I have identified in private conversations with the noble Lord is the possibility of distorting the market in UCO and biodiesel by importations of ethanol. I will happily raise that with my right honourable friend the Secretary of State.
Lord Palmer
My Lords, as one of the instigators of the RTFO, is it not a scandal that our commitment is met by only 11% from home-produced fuel in this country? I must declare an interest as president of the transport division of the Renewable Energy Association.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I understand the point that the noble Lord is making but we are bound by the WTO trade rules and EU state aid rules.
Lord Bradshaw
Does my noble friend agree that there really are two types of renewable fuel? There is that produced from food crops, which are converted, and that which is collected as waste products from places such as fish and chip shops. There is a much greater utility in the second type than in the first. I somehow feel that the Government must go to the World Trade Organisation and the EEC, or somebody else, and make a clear distinction so that they can reward properly the people who are doing a service in stopping the deposit of waste into drains and onto land.
Earl Attlee
My noble friend is largely right. That is why fuels derived from waste products get two renewable transport fuel certificates, whereas short rotation first generation crops get only one certificate. However, there is a difficulty and the policy needs to be designed so we do not get indirect land use change problems. My honourable friend Mr Norman Baker is working closely with the European Union to get a solution to that problem.
Lord Whitty
I understand this global concern about using what was previously food production land for biofuels. However, when we first proposed the obligation, about 50% of the market was expected to be met from waste using the kind of operation that my noble friend Lord Kennedy is concerned about. There is also the separate problem that British Sugar has planted new land and made a substantial investment. If we renege on or reduce the obligation, it will not bring any return to a major investor in some of our important rural areas.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Lord makes the point that we need to give producers certainty and clarity. Next year we will look at how this obligation-year worked. We cannot start that process until later in the year, because the trading period is to April and certificates can then be issued until August. So we are looking at quite late next year before we have a full data set that we can analyse to see how the market is working. However, I understand the points that the noble Lord makes.
Driving: Blood Alcohol Limit
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Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will consider introducing a 50 milligram blood alcohol limit for drivers aged under 21.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the Government have no plans to introduce a lower blood alcohol limit. The North review did not support a lower limit for drivers under 21 and the Government endorsed this. The Department for Transport is considering several options to ensure that newly qualified drivers drive safely.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
As the Minister will be aware, I have shifted my position considerably in the spirit of Christmas. I have moved away from a demand for zero tolerance to what seems to be a reasonable compromise to move forward. I am sorry that in his first response he said that the Government will not move, but at least they are prepared to consider some movement for younger drivers. All the evidence indicates that this is required. Will the Minister confirm to the House that the number of drink-driving deaths went up last year for the first time in a number of years, and that we need to take action in the near future?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I confirm that there was some unwelcome news on the number of casualties. However, if one looks at the graph, there continues to be a welcome downward trajectory. None the less, across the House, we all need to work hard to continue that downward trajectory.
Baroness Sherlock
My Lords, will the Minister tell the House how many fatalities per year the department believe to have any connection with drink-driving among people under 21?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am not sure regarding those under 21. The key figure is 280 drink-related fatalities per year.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
My Lords, will the Minister explain what the measures are to improve the safety of young drivers which he alluded to in his first response?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, we are considering all possible options at the moment to continue the downward trend.
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate
Will the Minister comment on the increasing and worrying trend of people driving under the influence of drugs? Will he tell the House when it is likely that a device will be approved for roadside testing in this regard?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, during the passage of the Crime and Courts Bill this afternoon we will be taking the drug-driving provisions through. There are two pieces of equipment to be approved: the station-based drug testing equipment, which is on track to be approved by the Home Office shortly, and the roadside drug testing equipment, which is a little more difficult; we need to wait for the outcome of the expert panel which is looking at the appropriate levels before we can set its specification.
Lord Swinfen
My Lords, how long does it take for the blood alcohol level to return to zero from 80 milligrams when the alcohol disperses naturally?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I do not know, but the key point is that there is no safe limit of alcohol in the blood when driving a vehicle. Therefore, we advise that the best option is not to drink at all.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, I note that the noble Earl told us that there was a downward trajectory. Will he give us the figures for the number of fatalities in the past year and for the year before that to demonstrate that? What stance are the Government taking on the BMA’s recommendations on this matter?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the casualty figures were distorted slightly by the number of casualties in 2010, which were slightly lower; we believe that that was due to the bad weather. The key point is that the figures for 2011 were still better than those for 2009.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
My Lords, will the Minister tell us how the United Kingdom’s blood alcohol limit compares with those of the rest of Europe?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, many European countries have a 50 milligram blood alcohol limit. However, they also have lower penalties at that level. Our policy is to have an 80 milligram limit but very severe penalties if you exceed the limit. This seems to have the right effect because our safety record is better than that on the continent.
Viscount Simon
My Lords, if the noble Earl is saying that 80 milligrams is the correct level for us, what about Scotland and Wales? Presumably they will decrease their level to 50 milligrams.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Viscount is quite right; Scotland has the power to set a lower limit. However, it cannot change the penalties. If it does change its limit, it will be very interesting to see what the effect will be on casualties.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer
My Lords, in France it is now compulsory by law to carry a breathalyser kit in one’s car. Is the UK considering anything like that?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, absolutely not. The difficulty with that idea is that it would enable drivers to drink more while believing that they were below the limit. Our policy is that there is no safe level of alcohol in the blood when driving. Therefore, we do not support the compulsory carrying of breathalysers by drivers.
Baroness Hayman
My Lords, when the Minister gave the figures for the number of fatalities involving drink, did all of those incidents involve blood alcohol levels above the current limit? My recollection is that one problem with the issue was that no statistics were kept for accidents involving drinkers who were below the 80 milligram limit but above the 50 milligram limit. Is that information now available?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it may well be available but I am not aware of it. However, my point is that there is no safe blood alcohol level when one is driving a vehicle.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, my noble friend referred to options and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, asked him if he could specify some of the options. Can he give us at least two of them?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, one option—and it is only an option—would be to deal with the problem of tragic accidents where several youngsters are killed in one vehicle. These are very distressing accidents and we need to consider whether we should allow a young driver to carry several youngsters. However, there is a contrary argument, which noble Lords opposite articulated when they were Ministers, that that could have an economic effect. It could mean that the system of one sober driver might not work. So we need to consider carefully what the options are to make sure that there are no unintended consequences.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, will the Minister tell your Lordships’ House which drugs will be detected if the detection equipment is found to be reliable?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, we are shortly going to be publishing the review of the expert panel which will tell us which drugs and what levels for each drug will be detected, based on scientific evidence, and the risk associated with them.
Immigration: Tuberculosis Testing
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Baroness Gardner of Parkes
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will introduce blood tests for latent tuberculosis for immigrants from countries where tuberculosis is common.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the Department of Health is evaluating the effectiveness of latent TB screening in migrant populations. NICE produces clinical guidelines on testing for diagnosing latent TB. It also advises on which is the most accurate approach in diagnosing latent TB in those who have recently arrived in the UK from high incidence countries.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the moment you arrive here you become the responsibility of the National Health Service? Would it therefore not be much wiser to have these tests carried out in the country of origin where the visa application is made? As I understand it, something like three-quarters of the people diagnosed in the past year would have been missed with the present test. Can he assure me that, if country-of-origin testing is introduced, the Home Office will take action to ensure that the tests are up to standard and not subject to interference or even possible corruption?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. Overseas tests already take place, first by X-ray and then by a sputum test in the event of a positive result. This results in cost savings because we do not need to treat someone suffering from tuberculosis if they come to the UK.
Lord Morris of Handsworth
My Lords, given that tuberculosis is not exclusive to immigrants, does the Minister agree that everyone coming into the United Kingdom from some of the suspect countries should be tested?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, sadly, about 30% of the world’s population have latent TB. We would not test people from other European states even if they have a TB problem.
Lord Ribeiro
My Lords, TB and HIV co-exist. The NHS is required to test all new healthcare workers for tuberculosis and blood-born viruses, including HIV. In relation to overseas recruitment, it is recommended that the tests are performed in the country of origin before applying for employment. Can the Minister confirm that compliance with this guidance is being maintained and is it possible to move towards the situation that currently pertains in Australia, New Zealand and Canada?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, eventually for all the 82 high- risk countries, you will not be able to get a visa to the UK unless you are clear of TB. To clarify further my answer to the noble Lord, Lord Morris, arrivals from the other European states are not tested for TB because of course they do not need to be tested. They can come and go as they please.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the growing incidence of TB is actually a feature now in the UK, particularly in cities such as London and Birmingham? What priority are the Government giving within the National Health Service to dealing with a problem that is causing a great deal of concern?
Earl Attlee
The noble Lord is absolutely right: it is a problem in the big conurbations, due to deprivation and very dense accommodation. I can assure the noble Lord that the Government are on the case. We regard it as a serious problem. Further to the article in the Financial Times, we recognise that we must not let it get out of control. That is partially why we are insisting on testing people outside the UK so that we do not incur the costs for the NHS. It costs about £6,000 to treat someone who is very susceptible to treatment with antibiotics but if they are multiresistant it can cost £100,000 to treat them. We need to make sure that we do not import health problems and we concentrate on solving our own health problems—not just by activities in the NHS but also by improving housing, which I am sure all Governments have striven to do over the years.
Lord Avebury
My Lords, as blood tests for latent TB are already available to migrants through their GPs, is not the answer to encourage greater voluntary take-up in areas such as the noble Lord opposite mentioned—Birmingham, Hounslow and Newham—and enlist the help of diaspora organisations from the 67 countries where TB is most prevalent to increase the rates of take-up? Since the countries that undertake pre-emptive screening all depend on X-rays, as we are now doing with overseas checking of would-be migrants from those countries where active TB exists, and none is contemplating pre-emptive blood testing, should we not have discussions with those countries to concert a common approach on what should be done about pre-entry blood testing in overseas countries?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I look forward to reading my noble friend’s comments in Hansard in the morning but it is important that testing is targeted. The health professionals will offer tests where they are most effective and most likely to find a problem.
Cycling: Infrastructure
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Lord Berkeley
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proportion of the Highways Agency’s budget is allocated to infrastructure for cycling.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the Highways Agency works with cycling organisations to provide parallel routes, safe access and crossing points to the strategic route network. These schemes are funded within the agency’s portfolio of small improvement schemes, on which the expenditure is approximately £50 million each year across the portfolio. Provision for cyclists is also a consideration of the agency’s major schemes. The specific investment relating to cyclists is therefore difficult to disaggregate.
Lord Berkeley
I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer and I congratulate the Government and TfL on the investment they have recently announced for cycling infrastructure. However, does he agree that possibly there is a need to go further? There is a poll in the Times today, coincidentally, which shows that 25% of the respondents think that segregated cycle lanes would make people cycle more. It also shows that only 2% of journeys in this country are by cycle compared with a figure of about 25% to 35% in Belgium, Holland and Denmark. Does he agree that it is time to look at reallocating space on the roads for cycles and providing much greater investment alongside that?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the views of respondents to any survey are obviously important. We should not disregard them. We should take account of them. Segregation has its benefits because you will be able to reduce the number of accidents far more effectively. However, there is the issue of economic use of the road space and the business case if you want such a scheme. In London, these are matters for Transport for London.
Lord Taverne
My Lords, does the Minister accept that the bicycle is the most efficient machine ever invented for converting energy into motion and that the bicycle could be accurately described as a green car that can run on tap water and tea cakes and has a built-in gym? Does he therefore agree that it makes sense to base policy for private urban transport on the motto, “Two wheels good; four wheels bad”?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I agree with my noble friend. One of the most important aspects of the use of the bicycle is the health benefits. That is why the Government support cycling and why the previous Government did exactly the same thing.
Baroness King of Bow
My Lords, we are all aware of the dangers of cycling, especially if you live in Tower Hamlets where, on Friday, the 14th cyclist to die in London this year was pronounced dead on Commercial Road. I want to ask the Minister about another danger facing cyclists. I refer to the high levels of exhaust fumes and particulates that they inhale. Can the Minister hazard a guess as to whether, say, a half-hour commute on a bicycle in rush-hour traffic is the equivalent of one cigarette a day or 20 cigarettes a day? If he is not sure—because I am not—would he be willing to write to me with the latest research evidence and government guidance so that cyclists can be assured that their healthy lifestyle is not, in fact, a fast track to lung cancer?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Baroness will be aware that the previous Mayor of London introduced a lower emissions zone for London to tackle the level of emissions. I accept that they are too high, but everyone is working to reduce the levels.
Lord Quirk
“Two legs good” is by all means better than “Two wheels good”. Can we not have some guarantee of the safety of pedestrians on the pavement as well as of course support for the need to protect cyclists?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, although the Government support cycling, we do so only where it is legal. It is important that cyclists do not ride their cycles on the footpath. Enforcement is an operational matter for the police.
Lord Hughes of Woodside
My Lords, although we must do everything possible to encourage the safety of cyclists, does the Minister agree that cyclists themselves can do much to help their own safety? For example, in the evening, when it is dark, one hardly sees the bicycle light flashing. Furthermore, cyclists seem to wear the darkest of clothes, which makes them almost invisible. Should not something be done to educate them, first, to have decent lights and, secondly, to wear fluorescent jackets so that they can be easily seen?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the Highway Code advises cyclists to wear appropriate high-visibility clothing all the time and make sure that their lights work. The noble Lord is right. Cyclists can do a lot to make themselves less vulnerable.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, is the Minister aware that, in London, a great many of the fatal accidents occur when people are dragged under as large vehicles turn left, particularly cement vehicles and waste disposal vehicles carrying skips? The front wheel hits a person, but it is the back wheel that kills them. If a bar was put along the side to prevent the bicycle being dragged under the vehicle it would save many lives. Is there any thought of the Government encouraging that?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, there are already regulations in place that require side guards to be fitted to the majority of heavy goods vehicles. However, construction vehicles are exempt. The European Union is looking at the regulation of side guards and will probably reduce the number of exemptions.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, following on from the previous question, is the Minister not concerned that the accident rate for cyclists is increasing alarmingly, especially in London? Cyclists have a particular problem in coping with large roundabouts where there are no regulated lanes. Several of the deaths have occurred at such roundabouts. Why do the Government not take up the programme that the Times has launched, “Cities fit for cycling”, in which it says that in order to get dedicated cycle lanes and improve our safety record we need £100 million a year spent on cycling?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that we are paying close attention to the Times campaign for the very reasons that the noble Lord points out. This is of course a Question about the Highways Agency, which has a range of local network management schemes to make improvements where cycle routes cross the strategic route network or there are segregation problems.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall
My Lords, given that most people driving on the roads probably took their tests quite a long time ago—I have to say that I certainly did—is the noble Earl confident that the current methods of testing young drivers take sufficient account of the dangers to cyclists that drivers represent, particularly in view of the fact that no matter how much investment is made in cycling routes, cyclists will have to share the road with drivers for at least some of the time?
Earl Attlee
The noble Baroness makes an extremely important point. I can assure her that the Driving Standards Agency adjusts the test to make sure that it properly reflects the needs of cyclists. In addition, I should point out to your Lordships the need regularly to read the Highway Code because its contents change, particularly in respect of road markings relating to cyclists.
British Transport Police
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, the Government recognise the need to amend the Firearms Act 1968 to address the anomalous position of the BTP in relation to firearms licensing. We are continuing to seek a suitable legislative vehicle to make the necessary amendment to the Firearms Act 1968. We hope that it will be possible to do so during the third Session Bill programme.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, there is widespread admiration in your Lordships’ House and elsewhere for the work that the British Transport Police do, particularly in tackling metal theft, as we heard in the debate on Friday. In May last year, the Secretary of State for Transport announced that the British Transport Police could arm its officers. However, for the reason the Minister mentioned—because the definition of “police” in the Police Act 1996 does not include the BTP—its officers are not regarded as Crown servants under the Firearms Act 1968. Is he aware that, as a result, BTP officers do not enjoy the legal protection afforded to other police officers and that they have to apply for firearms certificates individually as if they were members of the public? The Minister referred to legislative opportunities—
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
I will finish very quickly. The Minister referred to legislative opportunities. Will he look at a late amendment to the Crime and Courts Bill or the introduction of a statutory instrument under the Railways and Transport Safety Act?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right in his analysis of the problem. Unfortunately, we cannot make any suitable amendment to current legislation going through your Lordships’ House. I am advised that other routes, such as a regulatory reform order, are not suitable, so we will have to wait for a suitable slot in the primary legislation. However, the noble Lord’s point about legal uncertainties is extremely important.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, how many BTP officers carry firearms? As my noble friend said, it seems odd that they do not have the same legal position as other police officers around the country who are able to carry firearms. What is the legal position of BTP officers who carry firearms? Are they at risk on a personal level in a way that the other police officers are not?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, in answer to the noble Lord’s first question, we are talking about only 53 police officers, so the bureaucracy load is manageable, although extremely inconvenient. The weakness in the legislation on the protection of officers who are involved in an incident, alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, is an extremely important point.
Lord West of Spithead
My Lords, does the Minister agree that although metal theft is a heinous crime and has caused damage to war memorials and danger to hospitals and railway lines, shooting those involved might be a little over the top?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, in the case of a war memorial, I am sure that the noble Lord and I would have some doubt over whether that would be over the top. Police officers have a range of options. It is important to note that British Transport Police armed officers have not only a firearm but a Taser and other weapons, such as pepper sprays, so they do not need to resort to the firearm immediately.