Universities: Student Immigration System
Earl Attlee Excerpts(13 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what will be the impact on universities of the proposed changes to the student immigration system.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, a consultation on the student immigration system closed on 31 January. It sought the views of all respondents on the effect of the proposals. The results of the consultation, and an impact assessment, will be published in due course.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl. Last week, the noble Lord, Lord Green, who is Trade Minister, spoke warmly of the role of British educational institutions as export earners. Why is the noble Earl's department undermining that by proposing to cut the number of international students coming to the United Kingdom? Does he understand that this will have a devastating impact on the finances of many of our universities and will do enormous damage to UK interests?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, we are clear that we are not targeting genuine students at universities. The measures that we propose will ensure that the system is more selective for the brightest and the best. We will protect the areas that pose the least risk, including the universities sector, target the areas where risk of abuse is highest and ensure that genuine students will still be able to study at our world-renowned universities. The noble Lord is quite right to raise the issue. International students are vital for our trade position and for our soft power position.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, as chancellor of the University of the West of England, I am extremely concerned about the effect on Malaysian students who come to Bristol to do the bar vocational course or the solicitors course in order to go back and better run the rule of law in Malaysia, which is extremely important. When is the Minister likely to know the outcome of the consultation? I shall be in Malaysia next month and will be attacked because of the fear that people there will not be able to get their legal training here to improve the way that they operate the law in Malaysia.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I very much hope that Malaysian students will not be disadvantaged in the way that the noble and learned Baroness suggests. She can tell them that she will be able to attack me in the House if we get this wrong. We had 31,000 responses to the consultation, many of them online. Our first task is to analyse those responses. We are grateful for the responses from academia.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
As the Minister will know, citizens of the original Commonwealth countries cannot come here on Commonwealth scholarships any more, because these are not awarded. However, reputable universities can still get visas without any trouble for students who are doing important courses; I think that the Malaysians would be in this category. Is this not aimed more at stopping pseudo-students who are not intending to come to study? In the past, many never even appeared at some of these so-called colleges.
Lord Morgan
My Lords, has not this been seen by Universities UK as a deeply harmful policy to our universities that threatens both their global reputation and perhaps £2 billion of their income? Is not the Government's policy founded on the fallacy that students are considered as migrants—in other words, as permanent rather than temporary residents of this country? Given the Government's policy on university fees, is this not a further serious blow to the well-being of one of the glories of our country?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I seem to be struggling to convince the House that we are determined to protect our overseas students, whom we value immensely.
Baroness Benjamin
My Lords, I declare an interest as chancellor of the University of Exeter. If international students who are already studying here wish to take a new course, will they be expected to go back home and apply from overseas? The timeframe between finishing, getting their results and enrolling is very short, which will mean that many students will go elsewhere to study and we will lose good will internationally.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Baroness makes an important point and it is something that we are considering carefully. However, the difficulty that we experience is that students go from low-level course to low-level course, along the lines set out by my noble friend Lady Gardner, without making any academic progression at all and while no doubt working in the UK. It is a difficult point that we shall consider very carefully.
Baroness Howells of St Davids
My Lords, as chancellor of the University of Bedfordshire, I should like to give some figures which I hope will help. International students contribute £75 million per year to the local economy—money which we all agree is needed in Luton. They contribute £5 billion to the UK economy, which in turn generates wealth and jobs, and is equivalent in income terms to that contributed by a major industrial sector. The presence of international students makes courses financially viable, which they would not be if only UK students were recruited. Are these draconian rules really going to affect people who come here without real study value? We will lose good students, who will go to Canada and elsewhere if they have to comply with these rules.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am not disputing the figures that the noble Baroness quotes. That is one reason why we welcome overseas students. It is important to remember that comparable states have similar rules. Sometimes our rules are tougher; sometimes theirs are. However, we pay attention to the rules that obtain in similar states.
Airports: Heathrow
Earl Attlee Excerpts(13 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Spicer
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they plan for London Heathrow Airport to continue to be the world’s busiest airport in respect of international passenger traffic.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, we are committed to producing a new policy framework for UK aviation that supports economic growth and protects Heathrow’s status as a global hub, as well as addressing aviation’s environmental impacts. We intend to issue a scoping document in March 2011 setting out the key strategic questions that we are seeking to answer, followed by publication of a draft policy framework for consultation by March 2012.
Lord Spicer
I thank my noble friend for that response, but does he accept that the growth of the British economy will be seriously affected if there is capacity constraint at Heathrow Airport?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, we have made it absolutely clear that we do not support the construction of additional runways at Heathrow, Gatwick or Stansted. We believe that such runways would cause an unacceptable level of environmental damage, undermining our efforts to combat climate change and significantly damaging the quality of life of local communities. Instead, we have established the South East Airports Taskforce with key players from across the industry to explore the scope for measures to make the most of the existing airport infrastructure and to improve conditions for users of Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted.
Lord Borrie
My Lords, does the noble Earl agree that one of the great difficulties that Heathrow Airport has in expanding and trying to keep at least level with our competitor airports on the continent of Europe is the higher air passenger duty that people have to pay when they leave Heathrow for destinations abroad?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, decisions on matters concerning taxation, including aviation, are for my right honourable friend the Chancellor. On 22 June 2010, the Chancellor announced that the Government would explore changes to the aviation tax system, including switching from a per-passenger to a per-plane duty and that they would consult on major changes. My right honourable friend will of course take into consideration all shades of opinion.
Viscount Montgomery of Alamein
If the Government wish the UK to have an international hub airport, as we do, why do we not build one in the Thames estuary, which would be a greenfield site, would produce a lot of employment and would have lines that go straight into the European network?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the department has no plans for a new airport in the Thames estuary or in any other part of Medway or Kent. We want to get the most out of existing airport infrastructure in the south-east, which is why we have established the South East Airports Taskforce.
Baroness Scott of Needham Market
Will consideration of more effective use of the airports include a look at the provision of take-off and landing slots, which currently owes a lot to history and very little to common economic imperatives?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, a future airspace strategy is being undertaken, which includes proposals to enable aircraft to fly in more environmentally efficient ways. For example, the introduction of new onboard and ground-based systems will allow pilots to fly more direct routes and therefore reduce fuel burn and enable aircraft to arrive punctually at the approach to Heathrow, which will provide controllers with much better opportunities to guide aircraft into Heathrow without first placing them in a stack.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
Is the noble Lord aware that the simple problem is that we do not have enough tarmac or concrete at either Gatwick or Heathrow to get more planes in and out? Therefore, we either expand facilities in terms of more tarmac and concrete or we accept that the answer to the Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Spicer, is that, no, Heathrow will no longer be the busiest airport in the world.
Baroness O'Cathain
My Lords, what about the second runway at Gatwick? Surely that must be up for a rethink and consultation.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I made it clear in my initial responses that there would not be a second runway at Gatwick.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, the noble Lord knows, as do his colleagues, that Heathrow is operating at 97 per cent capacity. He also knows that, at the general election, his party was committed to blocking a third runway, which of course has effects on Heathrow’s future capacity. Today he has said that we have a South East Airports Taskforce. Is that the best response that the Government can make after years of policy formulation in this area?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I think that I have made our policy clear. We cannot carry on increasing the number of airport runways in London and the south-east without adverse environmental effects.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, the Minister will be aware that the night-flight regime, which limits night flights at Heathrow, comes to an end in 2012. Given the appalling history of consultations at Heathrow—narrow, biased and incomprehensible—will he meet with MPs and local community groups, or will he ask the Secretary of State to do so, so that a consultation is properly formulated, properly specified and meets the needs and purpose?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am confident that my ministerial colleagues have meetings as appropriate. On 7 September, the Minister of State laid a Written Ministerial Statement before Parliament on Heathrow operating procedures. That Statement confirmed that the Government would not approve the introduction of mixed mode, disturb the current arrangements for early-morning runway alternation, westerly preference and night-time rotation of easterly and westerly preference, or reopen the previous Government’s decision to end the Cranford agreement.
Lord Clinton-Davis
My Lords, I declare my interest as president of BALPA. In view of the Minister’s woeful comments, does he agree that there is really no alternative to Heathrow? Uncertainty is inimical to British aviation, particularly as far as passenger transport is concerned. Would it not make more sense to ensure now that the present situation at Heathrow is not imperilled and that the airport is expanded? What viable alternative is there?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I have to say again that we believe that an additional runway would significantly damage the quality of local communities. It would also cause an unacceptable level of environmental damage, undermining our efforts to combat climate change.
Asylum Seekers: Medical Treatment
Earl Attlee Excerpts(13 years, 4 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, before removing failed asylum seekers, the UK Border Agency assesses whether their removal would be contrary to the UK’s obligations under Articles 3 and 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights. Such case-by-case consideration may include the medical treatment and other support available in the country of return. However, the Government would not normally expect to make arrangements for foreign nationals to access medical treatment in their own country.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
I thank the Minister for that reply. Does he agree that someone who receives treatment here but is deported to a country where no such medication is available is going to a death sentence? Will the Minister not urgently consult, for example, the World Health Organisation and voluntary organisations to seek a way to ensure that no one, wherever they are—in the UK or elsewhere—is denied necessary basic medical attention?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I fully understand the point put so well by the noble Lord. However, the UK complies with all the requirements of the ECHR. Furthermore, DfID has an extensive health programme in developing countries. Health is the largest part of the basic services that are heavily prioritised by UK aid—the others being nutrition, education, water and sanitation. DfID’s priority areas for improving health outcomes in developing countries include malaria; reproductive, maternal and new-born health; child nutrition; and HIV/AIDS.
Lord Tomlinson
My Lords, given that the Minister has confirmed that we fully observe the requirements of the European Convention on Human Rights, can he also say whether that applies to judgments of the European Court of Human Rights?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I thought we would get a question like that. Two cases, D and N, are from the European Court of Human Rights; the case law is very clear and the UK adheres to it.
The Lord Bishop of Chichester
My Lords, can the Minister give the House any assurances about instructions given to agencies responsible for the removal of failed asylum seekers, whether by coercion or by forms of restraint? What are the Government’s policies on monitoring those instructions?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I think that the right reverend Prelate was referring to the process of removal. A few weeks ago, I visited the UK Border Agency’s training for the removal process. I am satisfied that the training was up to standard.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, this issue is an example of the many responsibilities being placed on the UK Border Agency in conjunction with the National Health Service. Is the Minister satisfied that the UKBA will continue to focus on and give priority to these matters, given the 20 per cent cut in its budget and the reduction in its staff by 5,000? Is it not a question of cutting too fast and too deep?
Earl Attlee
No, my Lords, it is a question of prioritising resources, and I am confident that the UK Border Agency will be able to carry out its statutory duties.
Lord Avebury
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the UKBA appears to have no recent policy on HIV-positive detainees, but that there is anecdotal evidence that some of them are being denied medication while in detention and that they are being given only one month’s supply of ARVs when they are removed? Will the Government consult the British HIV Association with a view to adopting the guidelines which it published two years ago, including provision of a three-month supply of medication to those who are deported, which would give patients at least some chance of finding an alternative source of treatment?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, while asylum seekers are in the UK and have not exhausted their appeal rights, they are entitled to the full range of NHS services. Asylum seekers who are returned should be supplied with sufficient drugs to meet their needs and tide them over until they can access drugs in their country of return. However, I will look further into the issue raised by the noble Lord and come back to him.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall
My Lords, I declare an interest; I serve on the Select Committee on HIV/AIDS. The noble Earl said that people who are awaiting news of their asylum status are entitled to the full range of NHS services. Will he confirm that in fact people who test positive for HIV are not able to access free treatment?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, as far as I know those who test positive for HIV in the UK, as long as they have not exhausted all their appeal rights, have exactly the same access to NHS treatment as the rest of the population. If the noble Baroness knows any different, I would be grateful for the details.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the issue is whether the person being returned is fit to fly. That decision is made by NHS health professionals, not by UK Border Agency staff.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, Mr Nick Clegg promised that the coalition would end the detention of the children of asylum seekers. Why, eight months after the election, has that not been done?
The Countess of Mar
My Lords, I speak as a former member of the Immigration Appeal Tribunal. Does the noble Earl agree that there is a large amount of case law relating to the returning of asylum seekers who are sick to their own countries, and that on the whole the tribunal abides by this case law?
The Countess of Mar
There is a large amount of case law that, on the whole, the tribunal abides by in reaching its assessments.
Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) Order 2011
Earl Attlee Excerpts(13 years, 4 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
That the draft orders laid before the House on 13 and 24 January be approved.
Relevant documents: 13th and 14th Reports from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. Considered in Grand Committee on 7 February.
Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) Order 2011
Earl Attlee Excerpts(13 years, 4 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) Order 2011.
Relevant Documents: 13th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I beg to move that the Committee considers the draft Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) Order 2011, which was laid before Parliament on 10 January. If it is made, this order in council will bring two new drugs, tapentadol and amineptine, under the control of the 1971 Act and clarify the legislation on mephedrone. Tapentadol is a recently developed, centrally acting analgesic or painkiller, which is likely to be marketed in the UK in the near future following licensing by the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency, or MHRA.
The effects and risks associated with tapentadol are similar to those of other opioid analgesics, including hydromorphone and morphine, which are both controlled as class A drugs under the 1971 Act. Tapentadol presents a risk of addiction, diversion from legitimate sources and potential medicinal misuse. The risks associated with an overdose of tapentadol are constriction of the pupils, vomiting, loss of consciousness, seizures, difficulty in breathing and a risk of serious complications likely to lead to death.
Amineptine, on the other hand, is a powerful and fast acting antidepressant whose misuse has been reported mainly in Asia and Europe. In 2003, the Commission on Narcotic Drugs, on the recommendation of the World Health Organisation, decided to include amineptine in Schedule II to the Convention on Psychotropic Substances of 1971. As a signatory to the 1971 convention, the UK has to schedule amineptine under the 1971 Act to meet its international obligations.
Clinical studies indicate that amineptine has the potential for both dependence and misuse, predominantly in patients with a previous history of substance misuse. The withdrawal symptoms associated with amineptine include anxiety, psychomotor agitation and insomnia. Instances of dependence have been reported in Asia and Europe. The Government have consulted the advisory council as required by statute for both drugs, and in July last year it provided advice on tapentadol and amineptine following consideration of their harms. The advisory council reports that there is no evidence of licit or illicit use of tapentadol or amineptine in the UK. However, it supports the control of both drugs due to the potential harm associated with them. The advisory council also recommends that tapentadol and amineptine are controlled under the Misuse of Drugs Act—in class A and class C respectively—and Schedule 2 to the Misuse of Drugs Regulations 2001. The Government have accepted its recommendations.
The Committee will recollect that mephedrone and other cathinone derivatives—a group of so-called legal highs—were brought under the control of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 as class B drugs from 16 April 2010, with cross-party agreement in the final days of the last Parliament. If it is made, the latest Order in Council will also clarify the legislation on mephedrone, subsuming it within the generic definition used to control other cathinone derivatives at the time. Under current drafting, there can be uncertainty surrounding whether Article 2(a) or 2(b) of the 2010 order amending the 1971 Act is applicable to a given sample when preparing a charge for offences relating to mephedrone. The amendment will remove that uncertainty and ensure clarity and consistency for prosecutors, enabling all charges for the possession, supply and production of mephedrone to be prepared under the generic definition in paragraph 1(aa) of the 1971 Act.
This Order in Council, if it is made, will ensure that while honouring its obligations as a signatory to the 1971 UN convention, the UK will also be taking precautionary measures, based on the assessment of harms and the potential for misuse highlighted by the advisory council, by controlling tapentadol and amineptine under the 1971 Act.
There will be no designation order in the case of the two new drugs we seek to control through this Order in Council, as both drugs have legitimate medicinal uses. However, it is intended to make two further related statutory instruments which will be subject to the negative resolution procedure. The misuse of drugs designation amendment order 2011 will amend the Misuse of Drugs (Designation) Order 2001, subsuming mephedrone within the generic definition in the order. The misuse of drugs amendment regulations 2011 will similarly amend the Misuse of Drugs Regulations 2001, bringing mephedrone within the generic definition in the 2001 regulations and including tapentadol and amineptine in Schedule 2 to the 2001 regulations. Those instruments will be laid so as to come into force at the same time as the Order in Council, if it comes into force as proposed.
The Government will publicise the approved law changes on tapentadol and amineptine and the clarification of the legislation on mephedrone through a Home Office circular.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am sure we are all grateful to the noble Earl for his remarks in introducing this order. The scientific evidence and advice on which the Government have acted is very clear and I welcome the Government’s action. The first two provisions in the order follow advice from the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs. A letter about tapentadol from Professor Les Iversen of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs in July 2010 concludes that the abuse liability of the drug would be substantial and has the potential to cause social harm through diversion and addiction. Measures for amineptine were also on the recommendation of the advisory committee, which supports that drug being controlled under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971.
The Explanatory Memorandum discloses that no consultation has taken place on this and that the Minister’s department has concluded that it is not necessary or beneficial so to do. The noble Earl will be aware that the Merits Select Committee has suggested that this Committee should satisfy itself that the review processes for the changes are sufficiently robust. I invite the noble Earl to respond to that comment of the Merits Select Committee.
In relation to these first two drugs, I take this opportunity to thank Professor Iversen and his advisory committee for the extremely valuable work that they do. The Minister has also explained that the changes in the draft order about mephedrone will not affect its classification. It is, and will remain, a class B controlled drug. The proposed clarification is simply a technical change in the legislation to make it more straightforward for prosecuting authorities to prepare charges. That seems extremely sensible and the Official Opposition are glad to support the proposal.
It is only a few months ago that mephedrone was brought under the control of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 as a class B drug. As has been explained, the paperwork accompanying the order makes it very clear that these drugs are harmful and dangerous and, in addition to legislative controls, a series of actions is required going beyond law enforcement and embracing prevention, public health and education. I would be grateful if the noble Earl could say something about what progress has been made on these fronts since the drug received the classification last April.
I would also like to ask the Minister about the impact of the proposed changes to the National Health Service on public health programmes in relation to this and other drugs. In so doing, I should refer to my declaration of a number of interests of mine in healthcare, declared in the House of Lords register of interests.
I understand that many useful public health programmes in relation to drugs are organised and funded locally by primary care trusts. The noble Earl will be aware that, under legislation now in the other place, primary care trusts are due to be abolished, with most of their public health functions being transferred to local authorities, alongside ring-fenced funding. Perhaps the noble Earl—if not today, but in writing—can assure me that his department will work very closely with the Department of Health and CLG to ensure that the budgets for drug prevention work, which are currently held locally, will be protected and that local authorities will be strongly encouraged to be proactive in that area.
Baroness Hamwee
I, too, am happy to support this order. I would like to follow up the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, on consultation. The Merits of Statutory Instruments Committee referred in its report to amineptine having been dealt with by the Commission on Narcotic Drugs as long ago as 2003. That is quite startling. I am sure that the noble Earl will have been briefed as to the reason for the delay.
I also want to ask about the reference in the Explanatory Memorandum to consultation not being necessary. One might say that it is or is not, but at least one would understand it. I simply do not understand why consultation may not be “beneficial”, which is the term used in paragraph 8.1 of the Explanatory Memorandum. When is consultation not beneficial? I hope that the noble Earl can find an answer to that perhaps more philosophical question.
Earl Attlee
I am grateful for the helpful response from all noble Lords in this short debate. I think that the most important point to be made is about consultation, which, of course, is necessary. But it is achieved in a variety of ways, including the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs talking to the manufacturers of drugs, particularly of tapentadol, and to the medical health care regulatory agency. Of course, we keep all these matters under review.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, asked me some NHS questions which I think he would agree were rather wider than this order, which is concerned with avoiding harm from therapeutic and recreational drugs. But I will draw our debate to the attention of my noble friend Lord Howe.
As regards mephedrone, there are frank website discussions about its dangers. Ministers have written to organisers of summer music festivals. There is also the student campaign promoting the message that just because something is legal, that does not make it safe. There are ongoing campaigns to educate people of the danger of so-called legal drugs.
Approval of this order will ensure that the UK continues to meet its international obligations and that our drug laws are effective in relation to newly developed pharmaceutical drugs entering the UK market. Controlling these drugs will ensure that the necessary regulatory framework is in place to protect the public from the potential harms associated with these drugs. We will continue to highlight that mephedrone is harmful and that it remains a class B drug, monitor the trends and the misuse of the drugs being proposed for control, and assess the impact of the controls introduced by this order.
Baroness Hamwee
Perhaps I may come back to two points that I made, which may have sounded a little flippant but were serious. The first concerns the delay since 2003, and the other the reference to consultation not being beneficial. If my noble friend Lord Attlee cannot answer these now, I should be grateful if he would write to me with a copy circulated to other Members of the Committee.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I never said that the consultation would not be beneficial. I said that it would be beneficial, but that the impact assessment—to which I think my noble friend referred—or the Explanatory Memorandum said that it would not be necessary. It was not necessary or beneficial because of the ACMD process, the activities of the MRHA and consultation with the manufacturer.
I did not answer her question about why it has taken so long for the UK to control amineptine when it was scheduled under the UN convention. Amineptine came to light following an audit carried out to ensure that the UK was fulfilling its international obligations. As soon as this came to light, the Government consulted the ACMD, as required under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, and, following its advice, have moved swiftly to bring amineptine on to the 1971 Act. However, at no time during this period were the public exposed to any risks from this drug, as amineptine has never been available or licensed in the UK. The ACMD has confirmed that there was no evidence of illicit use of amineptine in the UK. I hope that that answers my noble friend’s questions.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, as regards consultation, the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, has been helpful. I think he is saying that the advisory committee and the MHRA have gone through their own public consultation procedures and that therefore it is not necessary to do so again. Perhaps he could confirm that. In an otherwise very clear Explanatory Memorandum, it would have been helpful if that point had been raised.
Earl Attlee
I am obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. He is absolutely right.
Immigration and Nationality (Fees) Order 2011
Earl Attlee Excerpts(13 years, 4 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, the order concerns the charging for visa, immigration and nationality services and will enable the UK Border Agency to specify applications, processes and services for which it intends to set a fee. I thank all noble Lords who will take part in this debate. Specific fee levels will be set in separate legislation—using the affirmative procedure—that will be brought before the House in due course. Noble Lords will have the opportunity to ask searching questions about the level of fees in that debate.
In accordance with our legal powers, the order will carry forward our existing powers in the Immigration and Nationality (Fees) Order 2007 and set out the new provisions for which we intend to charge fees in future. The order will also transfer powers currently set out in the Consular Fees Order 2010 from Foreign and Commonwealth Office legislation to Home Office legislation so that all visa, immigration and nationality fees are handled in the same place. This will improve intelligibility for all customers, practitioners and corporate partners and will help address concerns raised previously in this House about the need for consolidation of such powers.
The order will allow us to charge fees in support of new services. For nationality applications, this includes the registration as British citizens, under amendments to Sections 1(3A) and 4D of the British Nationality Act 1981, of children born to foreign or Commonwealth parents who are serving as members of the Armed Forces. Previously, children born overseas to a foreign or Commonwealth parent serving outside the UK as a member of the Armed Forces had to wait until their return to the UK before they could acquire British citizenship. The order will also apply to those children born to a foreign or Commonwealth parent serving the UK Armed Forces who register as British citizens. As children born in the UK to a parent who is serving in the Armed Forces automatically become British citizens, both these changes will provide equality of treatment to the children of foreign or Commonwealth personnel irrespective of when or where they are born. The changes also represent action by the UK Border Agency on its commitment to enhance the immigration and nationality rights of Armed Forces personnel and their families.
The order will also provide a power to charge for requests for endorsements to amend the personal details on a previously issued national certificate.
In addition, some people are entitled to hold the status of British protected person through their connection with a former British protectorate, protected state, mandated territory or trust territory. Although this status can no longer be obtained automatically, people can apply for this sort of British nationality if they meet the appropriate criteria.
Students who were granted leave under tier 4 of the points-based system between 31 March 2009 and 4 October 2009 are currently required to advise the UK Border Agency when they are seeking to change their educational institution. Other tier 4 migrants apply and pay a fee to cover the cost of making such a change to the terms of their leave. We think that it is right that all students are treated equally in paying this fee. The order will provide that consistency.
The order will also allow us to charge a fee for highly trusted sponsor status at a level independent of the standard licence fee. This is an optional service for sponsors of tier 4 students under the points-based system. Currently, we charge the relevant sponsorship licence fee for such services. As we continue to develop service propositions for these sponsors, we believe that it is sensible to separate these provisions to ensure that we can set fees—subject to future parliamentary approval through the affirmative resolution procedure on the specific amounts—that better reflect the nature of the services provided.
Our power to charge fees for visa, immigration and nationality applications, processes and services is currently derived from the Immigration and Nationality (Fees) Order 2007.
The 2007 order has been amended twice since it came into force. Moving forward, however, to ensure that there is only one fees order in place under Section 51 of the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006, we are consolidating the 2007 order and its amendment into this order. That will improve the intelligibility of our powers, as I mentioned earlier.
We will continue to ensure that fees for immigration and nationality demonstrate that the UK is open for business and retains its position as an attractive destination. We welcome the economic, cultural and social contribution made by legal migrants to the UK. As I said, we will return to Parliament in due course to debate further regulations under the affirmative procedure specifying the fee levels that rely on the powers in Section 51 of the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006 and additional powers in the Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, etc.) Act 2004, as amended.
The order provides a basis for the sustainable immigration system that noble Lords all want and I commend it to the Committee.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am sure that the Committee is grateful to the noble Earl for his clear introduction to the Immigration and Nationality (Fees) Order 2011. As he explained, the draft order enables the Secretary of State to set fees for applications related to immigration or nationality and to charge for the provision of services or processes related to immigration or nationality. Once this draft order comes into force, the Secretary of State will be able to make regulations setting out the relevant fees and charges.
That is fair enough. But what lies behind this seemingly reasonable approach is the immigration policy of the Government, which is causing serious concerns and can best be described as a complete shambles. The fact is that the Labour Government’s points-based system would have been a far more effective means of controlling non-EU migration rather than an arbitrary and inflexible cap. It is clear that the Government’s cap policy was not thought through properly. It certainly did not get the scrutiny that it deserved. Not only will it do little to control immigration, it is clear that the Prime Minister's flagship election promise to bring net immigration down to the tens of thousands has now been watered down from a firm pledge to just an aim.
Only an hour or two ago, the House passed the Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill. It is worth referring to the comments of the Office for Budget Responsibility in November. It said that the Government’s immigration cap will make no difference to net immigration levels:
“The interim OBR’s June Budget estimates of trend growth estimates were based on an average net inward migration assumption of 140,000 per annum … Since June, the Government has announced a limit of 21,700 for non-EU migrants coming into the UK under the skilled and highly skilled routes from April 2011, a reduction of 6,300 on 2009 … At this stage, we judge that there is insufficient reason to change our average net migration assumption of 140,000 per year from 2010, which remains well below the net inflows of 198,000 seen in 2009”.
However frail the Government’s migration policy is, it is inescapable that enormous pressure is to be put on the UK Border Agency by the reduction in its budget of up to 20 per cent in real terms over the next four years. That feeds through into a reduction in staff of around 5,200. Cutting the number of border officers and staff by such an amount raises questions about the effective security of our borders. We seem to be seeing the noble Earl’s department desperately scrambling around trying to raise money through the use of the order. How much, it is impossible to say, as no details are given in the order or the Explanatory Memorandum and no impact assessment has been made. My understanding is that the reason for that is that the information will be made available alongside the regulations made in reliance upon this instrument. However, it is at least likely that the Home Office must have some indicative intent as to what income the fees will be expected to raise and I would be grateful if the noble Earl would inform the Committee of any details that he may have.
I would also like to follow on from the previous debate on the misuse of drugs by asking about consultation. We are informed that a full consultation was undertaken in September to December 2009, with a low response rate and support for a flexible fee policy. Has there been any further consultation since that took place?
Baroness Hamwee
Oh! The result of the Division in the House makes me feel even more uneasy. I also feel a little uneasy about the prospect of charging such students more.
With regard to the new provisions explained in paragraphs 7.3 and 7.4 of the Explanatory Memorandum, will the Minister say what thought has gone into allowing fees to be charged to provide “a route to … citizenship” for children born outside the UK to members of our Armed Forces? It seems to me to be pushing it a little to charge members of the Armed Forces for this. I hope that the Minister can amplify the thinking behind that.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their considered response this afternoon.
The order concerns itself with the ability to set the fees. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, used somewhat flamboyant language to describe our current immigration policy. Clearly we shall have to look forward to our discussions in the coming months, when he can table suitable Motions and Questions to explore his concerns further. However, I understand them; I am listening to similar concerns being expressed right around the House, and I will discuss these issues with my honourable friend Mr Damian Green tomorrow. I will use a lot of the noble Lord’s speech, when I read it in Hansard tomorrow, as my starting point. We can also look forward to the Oral Question on immigration next week; I am sure that the noble Lord is. There will be plenty of time to discuss all the issues in the detail that we want.
The level of fees will be set by further orders. Where the fees are above the level required for cost recovery, there has to be an affirmative procedure. Where the fees are lower than necessary for cost recovery, there will be the negative order procedure, but we intend to make sure that we can discuss all the fee levels together.
Some 2.5 million people are looking for work, many of whom have key skills to offer employers. There is more reason now than ever to limit economic migration. We are fully aware that we will not meet our target of reducing net migration to the tens of thousands by looking at economic routes alone, so we are looking at all the main immigration routes. We will also consult on changes to the marriage route and entitlement to settle in the UK, to make settlement a less automatic prospect.
I was asked how we decided the level of the limit. The MAC recommended a reduction of 6,300 visas in 2011-12, which we accepted. Applying that reduction to our 2009 baseline of 50,000 tier 1 and tier 2 visas results in an overall limit for 2011-12 of 43,700. However, the 2009 baseline includes 22,000 ICTs. As they have been exempted and need to be excluded from the baseline, that gives an overall limit of 21,700.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked what additional consultation had taken place since 2009. The UK Border Agency published results of the last full consultation on fees in January 2010. That consultation established the principle that the agency should charge flexibly to take into account wider policy aims, and 90 per cent agreed. Since then, we have engaged with the task forces representing the Armed Forces, education, employment, arts and the entertainment sectors.
The noble Lord also asked about the impact assessment and specific fee levels. We expect to raise £829 million from fee income in 2011-12, but that is only 36 per cent of the UK Border Agency costs. The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, touched on whether the fees covered all the UK Border Agency’s costs; clearly, they do not. We will publish a full impact assessment when we lay the subsequent fee regulations, which will be brought before the House through the affirmative resolution procedure.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, mentioned much of our immigration policy. The Government believe that Britain can benefit from migration but not uncontrolled migration, which places unacceptable pressure on public services. We can reduce net migration without damaging our economy. We can increase the number of high-value migrants—the entrepreneurs, the investors, the research scientists—at the same time as we reduce the total number of people coming into Britain through economic routes.
The noble Lord asked broadly what the UK Border Agency is doing to ensure that the effect of any increase is minimised. The agency has committed to cutting its budget by up to 20 per cent in real terms over the next four years. That is the economic situation that we are in; that is the reality. The UK Border Agency is cutting overheads by more than a third over the spending review period. The agency will save around £500 million in efficiencies by reducing support costs, boosting productivity and improving value for money from commercial suppliers. The agency is determined to ensure that applicants pay more of the costs of running the agency, with taxpayers paying less. That will ensure that we can continue to provide the excellent service that noble Lords would wish.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked about the definition of front-line services. We will provide a written response to that as soon as possible. I apologise for the delay in providing that information, but I will personally look into this with the Home Office.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, asked about the Armed Forces nationality fee. It is fair that, rather than the taxpayer, those seeking a benefit from the application should meet the costs of the consideration. A person or their parent makes a choice on whether they wish to register as a British citizen, so they accept that it involves the payment of a fee. Enabling a choice to be made also ensures that the person can make decisions regarding any other nationality that they may hold.
The noble Baroness also asked about the possibility of pricing out students. We remain committed to maintaining the UK as an attractive destination for work, for study, to visit or for cultural visits. We recognise that migrants make a valuable contribution to the wider British economy and continually monitor our fees to ensure that they remain competitive with similar endorsement types offered in other countries. We believe that our fees remain competitive, particularly when one considers them alongside the entitlements which are offered to successful applicants. We also need to ensure that the charging system is fair to those who use the system and fair to the UK taxpayer, who will continue to support the immigration system that brings benefits and enrichments to this country. The fees that we charge are neither designed nor expected to deter migrants from choosing to come to the UK.
We will return to Parliament in March with regulations under the affirmative procedure to ask for approval of the regulations that will detail the fee levels for the visa immigration and nationality services covered by this order. The Committee should be assured that the brightest and the best will continue to be welcome in the UK, as will those who seek to come here to visit or to invest.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I wonder whether I could just come back to the noble Earl on one or two points. First, I thank him for the comprehensive response that he gave to both me and the noble Baroness but I do have two points.
On the brightest and the best, I very much appreciate the noble Earl’s willingness to share some of these points with Mr Damian Green, the Minister responsible. My concern about students is one that comes from very reputable educational institutions—not the bogus institutions which we have debated and on which I think that a great deal of action has already taken place. These are respected institutions that have overseas students who make a huge contribution to the life and the finances of our higher education institutes and who go back to their own countries. They are also very helpful in future relationships between the UK and other countries.
The noble Earl knows that my background is in the health service, on which I refer noble Lords to the register of interests. However, if one thinks about the doctors who have trained here, for example, while I know that this is a slightly different issue from the more general one of students from other countries, the positive impact that they have on the UK healthcare industry for years to come is immeasurable. That is why we have to be careful about the consultation that is out with UKBA at the moment.
The second issue is that of fairness for those overseas students who are currently here and who will be impacted by the restriction on work. A crucial part of the experience for overseas students when they come here is that they are able to do some post-student work. Is the noble Earl prepared to look into this matter? I know we have Oral Questions next week, but these matters relating to work are being pursued by myself and by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, with a genuine concern about the impact that this will have on the UK and on our universities in particular.
The Minister very kindly responded to the points I raised about consultation. He is to bring forward orders later on with the proposed fee changes. Will the proposed fees in those orders have gone through some consultative procedure? It would be helpful to get an answer to that.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, on the first point raised by the noble Lord, I agree with nearly everything that is said about the background to his concern; he is clearly right. I say “nearly everything” just in case he said something with which I cannot agree, but everything he said makes sense. He talked about post-student work, if I may put it that way. The problem is that some students have abused it and ruined it for others. We need to work out how we can get all the benefits of overseas students not only for ourselves but for the rest of the world while avoiding some of the problems.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
I understand that, but the point is that we are in a competitive world. I am being told that other countries, such as the US and other European countries, are rubbing their hands with glee at the UKBA consultation because they know that the impact will be that the high-quality people, who would have come to the UK, will go elsewhere. From an economic point of view, that is madness. I am grateful for the tone of the noble Earl’s response, which is very constructive, but we need to be very careful about the signals we are giving to the kind of people we would always want to welcome to our shores.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am grateful for the noble Lord's attitude to me because I am trying to be as helpful as I can and I look forward to drilling down into these issues and getting him the answers that he requires. The noble Lord made the point about the brightest and the best and the concerns of the education sector. We note those concerns and we will respond fully to the responses received on the UKBA students’ consultation. However, it is worth noting that not all students return immediately: 21 per cent of students who entered in 2004 were still here after five years. The noble Lord asked about consultation and my understanding is that there will be consultation internally with Government but not externally. If I am wrong on that I shall write to him. I hope I have answered all of the noble Lord's concerns.
Roads: Charging
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Lord Bradshaw
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to introduce road pricing for lorries in the United Kingdom.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, we plan to introduce heavy goods vehicle road user charging to ensure a fairer arrangement for UK hauliers. We are still finalising details of the proposed scheme, which will include off-setting measures to help UK hauliers. The scheme must operate within relevant EU legislation and apply to both UK and foreign hauliers. Primary legislation will be required.
Lord Bradshaw
I thank the noble Earl for that reply, but why are Her Majesty's Government introducing a paper-based system for charging for road use, which will be both expensive to operate and open to abuse, when all the other countries in Europe have adopted or are adopting electronic systems, which have the scope to be adapted to deal with congestion and environmental damage?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his question. First, we have not fixed which scheme we are going to adopt, but it is unlikely that we will rely purely on a paper vignette. EU states have indeed moved from paper to electronic vignettes. Various possibilities are still being considered by the Government, but it is most likely that HGVs will be monitored for compliance by the use of automatic number plate reading linked to a database.
Lord Rosser
What progress are the Government making to implement the Conservative election commitment to make foreign hauliers pay appropriate dues when in this country on our roads? Have the Government found a way of doing that by road pricing without also further penalising UK hauliers, already being hit by the increase in fuel prices and the Government's VAT increase?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the whole object of this policy is to create a level playing field for UK operators, so we intend to charge a vignette to all operators to operate in the UK, but at the same time to create off-setting measures for UK hauliers, possibly by reducing the rate of vehicle excise duty, or by other measures.
Lord Berkeley
Is the noble Earl aware that the cost of the number plate recognition scheme used in London is about 30 per cent of the revenue? Why is he not going for a distance-based system, which has been introduced in much of the rest of Europe, where the costs of collection and fraud are said to be very much less?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, we have learnt from the experience of the London congestion charging scheme, but the technology is not completely appropriate for what we are planning. When VOSA patrols the strategic route network, it will use automatic number plate reading technology to scan all commercial vehicles to ensure that they have a valid vignette.
The Countess of Mar
Can the noble Earl explain what he means by a vignette?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, in the past a vignette was a piece of paper that was attached to the windscreen, but we are now considering a virtual vignette, which is what I mean by an electronic vignette. It is not necessarily a piece of paper on the windscreen, but it is a means for UK and foreign hauliers to pay to use UK roads.
Lord Naseby
Is my noble friend able to clarify whether this review will cover the situation of foreign lorry drivers who do not have adequate insurance? Indeed, some of them are not even qualified to drive lorries.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the principal authority for ensuring compliance with UK regulations is the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency. It may have a role in ensuring compliance with lorry road user charging, and it certainly has a role in ensuring that foreign goods vehicles comply with all our regulations.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
Does the Minister agree that the most advanced and used system in Europe is the German one, which is not based on paper, or even on registration recognition, but on satellites; that that is the way forward; and that that is what the previous Government were exploring and it has been abandoned by the present Government? Will they not go back to look at the longer term and to try to get the best system for our country, not a halfway house measure?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the satellite scheme was abandoned by the previous Government, not by this Government. They abandoned it because they spent £65 million on it and achieved nothing. It is also important to remember that our problems are different from the problems experienced by continental countries, which have a far higher proportion of foreign heavy goods vehicles operating on their territory.
The Earl of Glasgow
My Lords, in the absence of proper road pricing, can the Minister tell me what steps the Government are going to take to try to alleviate congestion, particularly on motorways and trunk roads?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the objective of the lorry road user charging system is purely to create a level playing field for UK hauliers who are experiencing unfair competition from foreign hauliers using cheap fuel purchased on the continent. This equates to an advantage of about 12p per mile on a maximum-weight artic.
Railways: Heritage Sector
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, for introducing this enjoyable and fascinating Question for Short Debate. He did so with his usual eloquence. I, too, am a preservationist, but I get involved with classic military and commercial vehicles. Nevertheless, I well understand the motivation, and I frequently visit preserved railways.
This is a good time to be debating this matter. Sixty years ago, a group of amateur railway enthusiasts was given control of the Talyllyn Railway in mid-Wales, a statutory railway company, and on 14 May 1951 they achieved a world first—the operation of the first public passenger train of the preservation era. At the time, many doubted whether the venture would succeed, but it did, and since then the heritage railway sector has prospered, not only in Great Britain but right around the world, as the noble Viscount has told us. It is important to understand that the heritage railway sector's prosperity is entirely a product of private, individual enterprise and initiative, independent of any involvement of the Government, which is limited to essential safety regulation.
Indeed, for Tom Rolt, the distinguished author and one of the founders of the Talyllyn Railway Preservation Society, the venture was a small but significant move against what he saw as the prevailing trends of the time of creeping state control of people's lives and the increasing uniformity of our industrial processes. In a real sense, the railway preservation movement was an early flowering of what we now call the big society, a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, and touched on by another noble Lord as well.
That is all the more remarkable when we consider the scale of the task facing railway preservationists. To give just one example, the pioneering Talyllyn was still using its original track and rolling stock, which were 85 years old when the preservationists took over, presenting them with the pressing need for expensive renewals. The heavy engineering task is no less awesome today.
To emphasise individual achievement is not to say that the Government are uninterested in railway heritage. Through the Department for Culture, Media and Sport we sponsor the National Railway Museum, the largest in the world. In 2011-12, the department is funding the National Museum of Science and Industry, of which the NRM is a major part, to the tune of £37 million. Of course, all noble Lords are delighted to hear of the new appointment of the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner. The Department for Transport currently sponsors the Railway Heritage Committee, of which more later.
I turn to the subject of the debate. Let us first consider the sector’s contribution to education. Heritage railways provide living museums, enabling the younger generation to learn an important aspect of social, economic and engineering history at first hand. To give just one example, the Sittingbourne and Kemsley Railway in Kent provides educational visits for schools and has recently appointed an education officer who is currently working to provide material relevant to the curriculum. It has developed an association with a local scout group to provide interesting and useful railway-based activities in which group members from different age groups can participate. The railway also works with Swale Skills Centre to provide training for suitable candidates.
The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, talked about the Bluebell Railway and its work with paid staff, volunteers and apprentices. That pattern is repeated around the country on many railways.
I turn to the sector’s contribution to tourism and the regional economy. These are two sides of the same coin, and many noble Lords have made contributions on this topic. Heritage railways create direct paid employment, often in areas where jobs are in short supply; promote tourism and attract visitors to their areas; and generate spending on services in the area, and indirect employment.
This is not mere conjecture. For example, academic research in 2008 on the local contribution of the Ffestiniog Railway showed a total economic impact on Gwynedd of between £8 million and £9 million per annum, with between 334 and 375 full-time posts supported in the region. Thus, the total benefit to Gwynedd was estimated at £15 million a year. In England, the East Lancashire Railway Trust has estimated that the railway yields total regional gross value added of £1.6 million and supports around 70 direct, indirect or induced jobs in the local community.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, talked about making full use of the heritage railways infrastructure. Heritage railways provide other benefits too. The West Somerset Railway has recently been running freight trains, delivering stone from the Mendips for coastal defence work and keeping heavy lorries off the Somerset roads. The heavy engineering workshops that these railways often have to establish provide a valuable engineering capability for the wider community.
I should also mention the Government’s role in safety regulation. The heritage railway sector voiced concerns that changes to the safety regime might prove to be disproportionately burdensome to its operations, prior to the introduction of those changes in 2006. Through discussion with the department, the sector was able to agree the final implementation timetable for those changes, which included an additional six months’ preparation period prior to their application to non-mainline railways, during which the safety regulator provided operators with additional support and guidance.
Accessibility has been another regulatory issue affecting heritage railways. We know that the sector takes accessibility seriously, but the department recognised that it would not be desirable to destroy the very nostalgic atmosphere that passengers, including those with disabilities, wished to experience, by making old carriages fully accessible. Therefore, Parliament agreed last year to exempt, by order, all pre-1999 vehicles on heritage and tourist networks from accessibility requirements in perpetuity.
I promised earlier to return to the Railway Heritage Committee. Last October, the Government announced our decision in principle to abolish the committee, and the committee has been listed in Schedule 1 to the Public Bodies Bill to facilitate that change. The noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, has proposed a transfer of the committee’s power of designation to another body—for example, the board of trustees of the Science Museum, which is the legal entity behind the National Museum of Science and Industry, which includes the National Railway Museum. It is important to remember that the role of the Railway Heritage Committee is to designate items, not to hold them; I am sure that all noble Lords will agree.
The Government recognise the valuable work that the noble Lord has done on this proposal. While not wishing to pre-empt the debate on this matter that will take place during Committee stage of the Public Bodies Bill, I assure him that positive discussions are continuing between the relevant government departments.
The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, referred to the prospect of the Bluebell and Swanage Railways connecting to the main lines. The Government look forward to the benefits of such interconnectivity, and I congratulate all these railways on their efforts to join up to the railway system.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, talked about the Parry people mover. I do not know much about this project, but we must look at all practical options for reducing the cost of the railway while maintaining services.
In his opening comments, the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, said that there was a fleet of 800 preserved locomotives, but of course there are many more waiting to be restored. There is no shortage of work. The noble Lord also mentioned the “Tornado” project. I am sure that all noble Lords look forward to the boiler problems being resolved.
The noble Viscount, Lord Montgomery, talked about Paraguay. I acknowledge the importance of the history of the major contribution that UK engineering firms made to overseas railways. The noble Viscount mentioned a famous steam locomotive that was built in Scotland. I recently read a fascinating book about the building of railways around the world.
The noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe, mentioned the Bluebell Railway, which I have visited more than once. Having been educated at Stowe School, I look forward to the “Schools” class locomotive of that name being returned to running order after giving sterling service. That locomotive was originally secured by my noble friend Lord Montagu of Beaulieu.
The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, also talked about the East Grinstead extension of the Bluebell Railway. We congratulate that railway on its efforts to remove waste from its line extension. I am sure that the noble Lord will continue to press local businesses to contribute to the line extension, but sadly it is not my role as a government Minister to intervene.
In conclusion, I am grateful for this opportunity, in its 60th anniversary year, to congratulate the railway heritage sector on its successes, often in the face of monumental engineering and financial challenges, preserving an important aspect of the nation’s heritage, enriching the lives of millions and providing tangible and very welcome support to our regional economies.
Airports: Heathrow
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Lord Gavron
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the impact on the economy of delays and cancellations at London Heathrow Airport in December 2010.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the department is considering the economic impact of the delays and cancellations at London Heathrow Airport in December. The number of terminal passengers travelling through Heathrow in December 2010 was down by around 10 per cent compared with 2009, mainly due to severe weather disruption. As a result some UK firms might have lost revenue, although there is currently no basis for quantifying this. In some cases firms might have mitigated impacts, for example through video conferencing.
Lord Gavron
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. The Spanish owners of Heathrow borrowed the money to buy it, thus leaving themselves too impoverished to invest in the infrastructure necessary for a reliable service to passengers in difficult weather conditions. This is confirmed by the Financial Times of 21 December. Do the Government think that so many of our key national institutions should be available to anyone, from anywhere, who can borrow the money to buy them?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Lord makes an important point about the importance of transport infrastructure to our economy. That is why we are continuing to invest in our infrastructure despite the economic situation. As for the ownership of BAA, there was an agreement with airlines about the level of residence to be provided this winter. However, 16 centimetres of snow in one hour far exceeded the agreed provision. I am not sure that ownership is relevant.
I have to apologise to the House, as last week I said that Heathrow had 24 aircraft stands with snowbound aircraft on them. I should have said that there were 200 such stands.
Lord Mawhinney
My Lords, given the economic and social importance of Heathrow, and indeed of Gatwick, after further consideration will my noble friend invite the Government to commission an independent inquiry into the resources and processes at Heathrow and Gatwick for handling snow and ice compared with those at New York and Boston, and then agree to publish the result?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I listened with great care to what the noble Lord said today and last week. The Civil Aviation Authority is taking forward work to understand more fully the impact of disruption on passengers to help to inform a decision on whether regulatory change is needed to balance the cost of disruption to passengers and business against the cost of dealing with severe weather.
Lord Campbell-Savours
My Lords, if the owners have no money, surely ownership is very relevant.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it is not relevant. Heathrow experienced 16 centimetres of snow in one hour. It does not matter who owns it; the airport will come to a stop in those circumstances.
Baroness O'Cathain
My Lords, will my noble friend the Minister confirm that Heathrow was actually purchased by the Spanish company under the previous Government, so the supplementary question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Gavron, should really focus on lessons to be learnt rather than on encouraging people to think that we were responsible?
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the last Government also placed 51 per cent of the shares of National Air Traffic Services in the hands of the public through the Government? The Government are contemplating privatising NATS. Would he assure the British public that it will not fall into foreign ownership?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I look forward to answering a Question about NATS in due course.
Baroness Scott of Needham Market
My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that a bad situation last year was made infinitely worse by the seeming inability of the airport operator and the airlines to give passengers adequate information that was not contradictory? Have the Government looked at the matter and at who should be giving information?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Baroness is quite right; we touched on this last week as well. There are two reviews. One was commissioned by BAA. The other will come from the South East Airports taskforce. No doubt both reviews will consider that very important point and come back with suggestions on how we can avoid the problems in future.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, last week the noble Lord indicated that these reviews were taking place, but did not indicate the degree of urgency. It is 31 January and there is still plenty of winter to come. When will these reports be published and when will any action based on them be taken?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the reports will come in due course. However, if there are any lessons to be taken on board immediately, we will listen and take action on those points.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, is it not rather ridiculous to try to turn this into an argument about public versus private? The motorway between Glasgow and Edinburgh was closed for two days, yet as far as I know has not been privatised. Is not the real issue whether we will have winters like this on a regular basis, and whether we need to invest in our infrastructure—our roads, our airports and the rest—to prevent our country from looking ridiculous in the eyes of the rest of the world?
Earl Attlee
My noble friend is absolutely right. That is why my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has asked Sir John Beddington to give us some scientific data on how likely it is that we will experience such severe winters in future.
Lord Clinton-Davis
I declare an interest as the president of BALPA. Is it not obvious, without any inquiry, that there are serious disadvantages in on-stand de-icing, including leaving parking stands awash with fluid overspray that could lead to serious health and safety risks? Is there not a real lack of de-icing rigs? Will the Government make a statement about that?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it is important to understand that there are two areas of responsibility. BAA is responsible for keeping the runways and taxiways clear, but the airlines are responsible for de-icing the aircraft. I asked about the environmental impact of the de-icing fluid, which is a glycol-based chemical. I was advised that the de-icers are intercepted and the effluent is reprocessed.
Airlines: Snow and Ice
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, the Government have invited the South East Airports Taskforce to consider airports’ contingency responses to last December’s severe weather. The Government are also considering proposals, under a Bill to reform economic regulation of airports, for new licensing provisions to give the aviation regulator more flexibility, where appropriate, to strengthen airports’ resilience to severe weather.
Lord Dubs
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that. Does he agree that what happened at Heathrow last month represented a national humiliation, given that Heathrow was closed for far longer than other airports in other countries that suffered? Is not the problem that the British Airports Authority failed to learn the lessons of last winter and to invest in proper snow-clearing measures, with the result that the airlines, particularly British Airways, were out of pocket many times more than the cost of providing those measures?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I share the noble Lord’s concern. It is important that we look at what happened, avoid a witch-hunt and make sure that BAA takes appropriate steps to avoid a repeat. It is important to remember that it cost BAA £24 million in lost revenue. It is also important to understand that, because of the situation that arose, there were 24 aircraft stands with an aircraft stuck on them and that it takes a very long time to clear a stand when the aircraft is standing on it.
Lord Lawson of Blaby
My Lords, can my noble friend inform the House of the statistical and scientific evidence for the Met Office’s estimate that there was only a one in 20 chance of a severe winter in 2010-11, an estimate on which the airports relied?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has asked Sir John Beddington to give him scientific advice on the likelihood of future severe winters. On 25 October 2010, the Met Office provided the Cabinet Office with an updated three-monthly forecast, which suggested a 40 per cent chance of cold conditions, a 30 per cent chance of near average conditions and a 30 per cent chance of mild conditions over northern Europe.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
Does the Minister think that BAA and other airports might benefit from the experience of London Luton Airport, which this winter has lost just five hours of operations—that was due to closure of airspace by NATS—despite the fact that Luton experienced greater snowfall than Heathrow? Does he agree that this was down to good management and planning, involving investment in equipment and consumables, early rehearsals of runway closure procedures and co-ordination across the airport, particularly with handling agents?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Lord makes the important point that good planning can mitigate the effect, but Heathrow Airport experienced 16 centimetres of snow in one hour, which was far more than was reasonable to plan for.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
I am one of those who suffered and waited at Gatwick Airport. Is the Minister aware that Gatwick managed to get all its passengers off at least two or three days ahead of Heathrow, I think, despite the fact that it suffered a great deal more snow? Gatwick set an example in that respect. I gather that it is not owned by BAA.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, most of what the noble and learned Baroness said is entirely correct. I am sure that the south-east airport review will take that matter into consideration.
Lord Mawhinney
My Lords, given that the Government understand the economic and social benefits attached to Heathrow and Gatwick, will they commission an independent investigation into the resources and procedures at those two airports to deal with snow and ice, compare those with what happens at New York and Boston Airports, and then publish the consequent report?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am sure that the output from the two reviews will achieve the effect that my noble friend desires.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, the House will be reassured that the Government are taking some action in this area, because action is certainly needed. We are all aware of the great significance of Heathrow in terms of passenger and freight traffic and its importance to tourism in this country. When the reputation of Heathrow suffers, so does the whole country. Will the Minister take particular interest in the level of communication with passengers when there are difficulties because there is no doubt that people suffered unduly at Heathrow as they had no idea what was going on day after day after day? It is important that the airport addresses this.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Lord makes an extremely important point. The point is applicable not just to Heathrow but to all transport modes. Noble Lords will remember the problems that we had with the railway industry, which struggled to cope with very difficult conditions but found it difficult to meet passengers’ expectations about information.
Baroness O'Loan
My Lords, will the Minister ensure that BAA is required to explain why those whose flights did not depart within four hours were not permitted access to terminal 1 on 22 December but were left outside in subzero temperatures, despite the fact that the terminal was half empty?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I do not have precise details on that, but I will write to the noble Baroness.
The Earl of Mar and Kellie
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that those airport managers who do not maintain sufficient snow and ice-clearing equipment should be forced to describe their airports as being only seasonal?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, when BAA makes its winter resilience plan, the plan is agreed with the airlines. However, what we experienced at Heathrow was far in excess of what was agreed on in the plan.
Baroness Walmsley
Does the Minister agree that lessons should be learnt from other countries? Is the noble Lord aware—
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, the Minister will recollect that on the previous occasion that he answered questions on this issue in this House he made the very important point that part of the problem at Heathrow Airport, as we all know, is that it has no room for resilience because it operates at 98 per cent of its capacity day in and day out. When the weather changes or dramatic circumstances affect it, the airport has no flexibility. The answer to that lies either in increasing capacity or in reducing usage. Will this issue be addressed when resilience is being considered?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am sure that people will consider that, but it is important to remember that Charles de Gaulle Airport has four runways running at 75 per cent capacity but still experienced severe difficulties.