Scrap Metal Dealers Bill

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Friday 18th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, I support the comments of my noble friend Lord Faulkner. I find it quite extraordinary, with all the work that has gone on to get this Bill through, and all the damage, cost and disruption to railways, sculptures, communications and churches that we have seen, that here we have the coalition supporting an amendment that will dump the same problem on the next Government in five years’ time. I hope they will reflect on this, because whoever is in government then—and I am sure it will not be the present coalition—will be blamed. It is really totally unnecessary to have this sunset clause. I hope that the Minister, on reflection, will withdraw this amendment so that the legislation can go through as quickly as possible and we can get some protection from these thieves through a system that will record transactions and enable the police to charge people, thereby reducing the thefts and all the damage they are causing.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, I declare an interest, as my wife’s family has suffered from metal thieves taking memorial plaques from the side of a church in Dewsbury. I feel strongly about this: I do not think there are many people in this House who feel as strongly as I do about deregulation, but it seems quite extraordinary that we have Bills coming before this House—mainly originating from European directives—where there is no possibility of having a sunset clause and where the Government are unable to proceed. This looks like a bit of window dressing. We should listen very carefully to the wise words of the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, about the risk and the delay which will arise.

I hope my noble friend will tell us whether, if this amendment were not passed, the Government would continue to support this Bill with enthusiasm. It seems to be an unnecessary risk and an unnecessary delay to send it back to the House of Commons for further consideration. I understand the long-standing difficulties there are with Private Members’ Bills in the other place. My late colleague, Eric Forth, used to cause considerable irritation by what he regarded as a principled stand on this matter. However, this is a Bill which, as several speakers have said, is urgently needed. I pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Browning for the diligent way in which she has carried us forward. At this very late stage, I am sorry that the Government are proposing to put a spanner in the works, which will delay much needed legislation.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Faulkner and what has just been said by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. I declare an interest as I am involved with war memorials around the United Kingdom. Metal theft has meant disaster for those memorials, and it has caused immense damage, sadness and pain to a number of people.

The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, suggests that this amendment is the price that we might have to pay for the Government to agree to this legislation, and that it would speed things up. Surely it will slow things down and surely things would happen much faster if we did not have this amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who contributed to this important debate. First, the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, talked about the need to use Private Members’ Bills. The noble Lord knows perfectly well how difficult it is to secure time for a government Bill. My noble friend Lady Browning’s comments reminded me of my Road Traffic (Enforcement Powers) Bill that I ran as a Private Member’s Bill in your Lordships’ House on behalf of the Labour Government and the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. I experienced similar problems trying to get the Bill through the House of Commons because of the sadly deceased Mr Eric Forth.

There is no benefit to be gained from inadequate reform of the scrap metal industry. The clause would allow for the system of regulation to be fully reviewed and assessed and for the government of the day to re-legislate in five years. The Government are not making these amendments because we do not have faith in the Bill delivering what is required. We believe that the Bill will be effective and that the review will bear testament to that.

How the House of Commons decides to handle a Bill is clearly a matter for that House. I agree that the House of Commons has problems in the way that it handles Private Members’ legislation—in a way that we do not. I do not accept that this Bill would be at an unacceptable risk if we sent it back to the other place amended. The Government are fulfilling their commitment, made in the House of Commons. We expect individual Members of the House of Commons to fulfil their commitments.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, if the Bill is amended as my noble friend proposes and it then goes back to the other place and there are difficulties, will the Government take it on and ensure that it reaches the statute book?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am confident that individual Members of another place will undertake to meet their commitments. Perhaps I may carry on.

We should not risk the House of Commons being reluctant in the future to accept government commitments in the circumstances of private legislation. My noble friend Lady Browning talked about honour and the word of a politician. How right she is to do so. We all know in our hearts what the right thing to do is. The noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, is correct in what she says—

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Baroness is, of course, absolutely and precisely correct, but my advice to the Committee is to accept this amendment.

I was asked whether there are any plans for the Government to include the contents of this Private Member’s Bill in a government Bill. The current Government do not have any such plans and it would be for the Government of the day to decide on the most suitable legislative vehicle to relegislate in this area. I would also point out in response to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, when he identified problems with renewing legislation, that as a defence spokesman he will know that the Armed Forces Act has to be renewed by order every year and by Act of Parliament every five years, but that does not mean that members of the Armed Forces do not have confidence in the legal arrangements of the Armed Forces.

I was asked the broad question of whether the Bill could not simply be re-enacted after five years. The outcome of the review could well recommend that the Bill meets its requirements and should be continued after five years. The Government of the day would have to make the case back before Parliament; that could be one approach that is taken. The principle of parliamentary sovereignty means that any future Parliament can legislate as it sees fit at any given time, even if this means acting inconsistently with the previous parliamentary intention.

Noble Lords will be aware that provisions to extend the life of a Bill are relatively easy to make, either by a Bill with a tightly worded Long Title or through an appropriate clause in a rather wider Bill. That would meet the need and it is not a difficult thing to do, as experienced noble Lords well know. In answer to my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale, I have already explained how the review system will work. Once the Bill becomes law, the fact that it was a Private Member’s Bill will make no difference. My noble friend Lord Forsyth asked whether, if an amendment is not agreed, a Bill can go to Royal Assent. Yes, of course it can, as all noble Lords well understand. If we do not agree this amendment, the Bill will go on to Royal Assent and become law. That is simple fact. However, future government assurances about Private Members’ Bills will carry a lot less weight, and I am not convinced that that is in anyone’s interests. Therefore, I beg to move.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Before my noble friend moves the amendment, could he explain the principle that a Bill will carry less weight when it has been passed by both Houses?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, perhaps my words were not clear. I did not mean that the Bill would carry less weight, but that a government assurance made at the Dispatch Box in respect of private legislation would carry less weight. If future Ministers experience the same problems in the House of Commons, they will not be able to get out of the problem so easily.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I apologise for interrupting my noble friend once again. My noble friend Lady Browning, who is a lady of considerable integrity, has done what she said she would, the Government have done what they said they would do, and their assurances have been met. However, neither the Government nor the movers of a Bill can anticipate and pre-empt the decision of a House of Parliament.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I have already agreed exactly that point with the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington. The Committee can decide this amendment as it pleases, but my strong advice to the Committee is to agree to it.