Extradition (Provisional Arrest) Bill [HL]

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

3rd reading & 3rd reading (Hansard) & 3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 15th June 2020 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

1: The Schedule, page 3, line 15, leave out from beginning to end of line 19 and insert—
“(3) The person must be brought as soon as practicable before the appropriate judge (see further, section 74D).”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment requires a person to be brought before the appropriate judge as soon as practicable after arrest. The Bill currently requires this to happen within 24 hours. The Minister’s other four amendments are consequential on this amendment.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, before I begin my speech on this amendment, I would like to note that this is a historic moment. This will be the first opportunity, in history, to vote remotely in the House of Lords.

The Government have tabled Amendment 1 regarding the 24-hour time limit for the arrested person to appear before a judge. Amendments 4 to 7 are consequential upon that main amendment. These amendments seek to replace the 24-hour time limit with “as soon as practicable”, which reflects current practice under Parts 1 and 2 of the Extradition Act 2003.

At Second Reading, in Committee and on Report, there was considered and stimulating debate in this House on the requirement under the Bill regarding the time limit within which a person arrested under this power should be put before a court. As noble Lords know, the courts to which all extradition suspects must be taken, whether arrested under Part 1 or Part 2 of the Extradition Act 2003 as currently written or as amended by the Bill, are Westminster Magistrates’ Court for England and Wales, Edinburgh Sheriff Court for Scotland, and Belfast magistrates’ court for Northern Ireland. Currently, a person arrested under the Act must generally be brought before the appropriate judge “as soon as practicable” following arrest. Under the new power of provisional arrest in this Bill, if this amendment is not made, that must occur “within 24 hours”.

The Bill was originally drafted in that way to strike a balance between getting arrested individuals before a court as quickly as possible and allowing the police sufficient time to gather supporting information. This mirrored, in a more stringent form, the approach to provisional arrest in Part 1 of the Extradition Act 2003, which requires an individual to be brought before the appropriate judge within 48 hours of arrest. However, I am conscious that this drafting departs from the general requirement that is currently imposed on the police after they make arrests under the other existing powers in the Extradition Act 2003.

I have listened carefully to the concerns raised at Second Reading and in Committee and have concluded that the new power of arrest in the Bill should be consistent in this respect with existing law and practice in relation to Part 2 of the 2003 Act, and that it should therefore mirror the wording “as soon as practicable”. That will ensure that individuals are not detained for any longer than is strictly necessary before being put before a judge. If, for example, an individual was arrested in central London, “as soon as practicable” would in all probability be considerably less than 24 hours. Our operational partners have already proved themselves very effective at producing wanted persons before courts within strict timeframes, and the three UK extradition courts have proved strict arbiters of police actions under the “as soon as practicable” requirement.

Additionally, if an individual is arrested and for legitimate reasons it is not possible to get them to court within 24 hours—for example, if they are arrested in a remote part of the UK or in an area affected by an extreme event—this change in wording will make the legislation operable across all parts of the UK in all circumstances.

Accordingly, I am introducing a government amendment to that effect to address the concerns expressed about this important issue both by noble Lords and by operational law enforcement partners. Although the language does not explicitly rule out production on weekends or bank holidays, these factors will of course be relevant to the practicability of bringing an individual before the appropriate judge. If public holidays or court opening times were to change in the future, the legislation would not need to be amended to take account of that. It remains the Government’s intention that the arrested person will be brought before a judge sitting in court, so court sitting times, which are determined by the judiciary, will be relevant to the concept of “as soon as practicable”.

There might of course be a multitude of other factors, such as geographical distance, natural disasters or illness of the arrested individual, that affect, in the individual case, the practicability of bringing an individual before a judge. Therefore, we continue to think that it is right that the judiciary are the arbiters, in the individual case, of whether this test of “as soon as practicable” is met, and they will be able to do so in determining any application for discharge under Section 74D(10).

I previously gave an undertaking to formally confirm that the Government intended to move this amendment today. It has the same overall purpose and effect as the one that the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, tabled on Report. I hope that noble Lords will be able to join me supporting this amendment. I beg to move.

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[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op) [V]]

My Lords, I have a question to which others may know the answer; forgive me if it is widely known. The Minister said in relation to Scotland that the court applicable was Edinburgh Sheriff Court. Can she let us know why Edinburgh Sheriff Court in particular was chosen, and why only Edinburgh Sheriff Court? Scotland is a very large country stretching from the border with England right up to Shetland. I wondered whether there might not be some practical problems if only Edinburgh Sheriff Court was applicable. So, what was the criterion and why only Edinburgh?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it has been Edinburgh Sheriff Court since the Extradition Act 2003 has been in place.

[The Deputy Speaker]

My Lords, as no other noble Lords have requested to come in on this debate, I shall now put the question on Amendment 1.

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[Baroness Hamwee (LD) [V]]

My Lords, in this amendment the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, has successfully combined a number of issues raised during the passage of the Bill. As noble Lords know, it is very difficult to resist even an affirmative instrument. That is the reality of the system, so it is particularly important that the Government are transparent and inclusive.

I went back to look at the Delegated Powers memorandum and realised—I had not noticed this before—that we are told as part of the justification for taking the power that a

“response to changing circumstances”—

which I will come to—

“provides certainty and clarity as to the appropriate manner of request from amended or newly specified territories. For example, if the UK were not to have access to the European Arrest Warrant or a similar tool, with the effect that EU Member States become re-designated as category 2 territories, it is likely to be appropriate to specify some or all of them for the purposes of this legislation.”

We had quite a bit of debate at the beginning as to whether the Bill is really preparing for us not being part of the EAW system, so there will be some interesting debates to come as territories are added.

As a member of the EU Select Committee, I have had the opportunity of hearing the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster mention this on a number of occasions. He said that what is important is to preserve our sovereignty, matters of proportionality and the state’s readiness for trial. As I say, there will be quite a bit to discuss as we add other countries.

The delegated powers memorandum also says:

“in the unlikely event of a deterioration in the standards of the criminal justice system of a specified category 2 territory, it is likely to be appropriate to remove”

it; well, the United States has been mentioned already by the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of Cradley. I suppose the answer to that is in the question of deterioration, because there are plenty of concerns about its processes now.

The House will be aware of our enthusiasm for consultation. I know that they do not claim this, but the Government do not have the monopoly of wisdom. Like other noble Lords, I am often very impressed by the knowledge that NGOs have. My noble friend Lord Paddick raised this point. I hope the Minister can confirm that, in legislation-speak, the Secretary of State’s opinion must always be a reasonable opinion and can be challenged on the basis that it is not reasonable.

I tabled an amendment in Committee to the effect that the designated authority—in our case, the NCA—must be satisfied that the request is not politically motivated. The Minister responded carefully and in detail, and I was grateful for that. The Committee was then reminded that the Extradition Act has safeguards in respect of requests motivated by a person’s political views. I want to make a distinction between that amendment and the one in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, which is about the abuse of the red notice system. I think that is different; it is to do with the requesting territory’s approach on a wider basis. I hope that the House will accept that the narrower amendment has been disposed of, as it does not deal with the wider point. From our Benches, we support the amendment.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have spoken to this amendment. Amendment 2 deals with the proposed statutory requirements for a consultation, the laying of statements before Parliament setting out the risks of any amendment to add, vary or remove a territory to the Bill and, in the case of additions, confirming that a territory does not abuse the Interpol red notice system prior to laying any regulations which seek to amend the territories subject to the Bill.

The Government are committed to ensuring that Parliament has the ability to question and decide on whether any new territories should come within scope. Therefore, it is mandated in the Bill that any Government wishing to add a new territory should do so through the affirmative resolution procedure. Any statutory instrument laid before Parliament will, of course, be accompanied by an Explanatory Memorandum that will set out the legislative context and the policy reason for the instrument. This procedure will give Parliament the opportunity to scrutinise proposals and allow the House to reject any proposals to add, remove or vary any territory to, from or in the Bill. The reasoning put forward will need to satisfy Parliament that the territory in scope does not abuse Interpol red notices or create unacceptable risks.

While extradition is a reserved matter, relevant officials are engaged in regular discussions with their counterparts in the devolved Administrations about how it should operate in practice. They would of course engage with them as a matter of good practice were any secondary legislation to be introduced in relation to it. Similarly, several relevant NGOs and expert legal practitioners have been consulted by officials in the normal way; this answers the questions of the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford. All external stakeholders are able to make direct contact with parliamentarians so that their views are included in all debates connected with secondary legislation associated with the Bill, as they have done during its current passage by contacting several noble Lords in this House.

A number of noble Lords, including the noble Baronesses, Lady Hamwee and Lady Ludford, talked about the abuse of Interpol channels. I will expand on that a bit. In arguing that maybe a power should not be enacted, given previous abuse of Interpol channels by some hostile states, the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, cited the case of Bill Browder. International organisations like Interpol are critical to international law enforcement co-operation and are aligned with our vision of a global Britain. Interpol provides a secure channel through which we exchange information on a police-to-police basis for action. The UK continues to work with Interpol to ensure that its rules are robust, effective and complied with. The former chief constable of Essex was recently made the executive director of policing services for Interpol, which I was delighted about. It is the most senior operational role in that organisation. A UK government lawyer has also been seconded to the Interpol notices and diffusion task force, to work with it to ensure that Interpol rules are properly robust and adhered to by Interpol member states.

In terms of the specification of non-trusted countries, the power will be available only in relation to requests from the countries specified in the Bill—countries in whose criminal justice systems we have a high level of confidence, and that do not abuse Interpol systems. The Government will not specify any country that is not suitable. The addition of any country must be approved by both Houses, and I trust that neither House will be content to approve the addition of a country about which we have concern.

I will try to make it easy for the House, because we will now have our first ever virtual vote in the House of Lords. I understand that noble Lords would like to divide on this, and I hope that they will join me in resisting the amendment.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark [V]]

My Lords, this has been a good short debate. I thank my noble friends Lady Kennedy of Cradley, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, Lady Wilcox of Newport and Lord Adonis, as well as the noble Baronesses, Lady Ludford and Lady Hamwee, and the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, for their support. All noble Lords carefully set out the need for this amendment in a most convincing way. I am not persuaded by the response of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, which I found disappointing. I will not disappoint her, and I will make it very clear that I certainly wish to test the opinion of the House in this first ever virtual vote.

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[Lord Kennedy of Southwark [V]]

My Lords, I support Amendment 3, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge. As noble Lords have heard, this issue has been considered by the House as the Bill has made its progress through the various stages. What is proposed here today is simple, effective and, I contend, good government.

Surely it must be right that when we are designating countries that we wish to form an extradition agreement with, after the detailed work has taken place, Parliament should have the opportunity to accept or reject the designation for an individual territory. Parliament generally, and this House in particular, does not often vote down regulations. We may pass Motions to Regret or debate the merits of what is proposed, and many may express deep reservations, but fatal Motions are very rare.

This amendment is important; it is good practice and what good government should be all about. It guards against this or any future Government, of whatever political persuasion, seeking to group together a number of countries and push them through en bloc where, for example, nine of the 10 countries proposed have good reputations, a good track record and respect for the rule of law, do not persecute dissidents, do not abuse human rights and do not abuse Interpol red notices, but the remaining country has a more questionable record on one, or a number of, the issues I have raised. In such a case, it would be wrong for the Government to try to force through an agreement under the cover of Parliament not wanting to reject the other territories, and would give the country about which questions have been asked some form of protection that it does not deserve, making the approval a fait accompli. Parliament should, in all circumstances, guard against that.

If passed, this amendment would allow Parliament, on the rare occasion that it rejects regulations, to do so quite clearly on the record of the individual territory that the Government propose to sign an agreement with. That is right, proportionate and the sensible way to deal with this important part of public policy; no other agreement will be put at risk. It is good government, and I hope noble Lords will support the amendment if it is put to the vote.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, on previous occasions this House has spoken at length on the question of what constitutes appropriate parliamentary scrutiny, in the wider sense, in relation to the addition of any territory, and has just done so again on Amendment 2. I will now expand further in addressing Amendment 3, in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, which seeks to mandate that this be done by individual statutory instrument for each suggested country.

I was slightly dismayed to hear noble Lords talk about mutual extradition arrangements because, as I have clarified on several occasions, this has not, and never has been, about mutual extradition arrangements. We do not do this on behalf of other countries, and if, for example, we did it on behalf of Turkey, the courts would throw it out—even if the Government could get it through Parliament, the courts would throw it out.

When this issue was debated in Committee, it was pointed out that statutory instruments that seek to specify new territories are not amendable. Some feel that this may create a difficulty for this House if regulations were laid which sought to specify multiple countries. As I have said before, the process of potentially listing multiple countries already exists for adding territories to both parts of the Extradition Act 2003.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

4: The Schedule, page 7, line 2, leave out “within 24 hours of” and insert “as soon as practicable after”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the Minister's first amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

That the Bill do now pass.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords who engaged very constructively with the Bill, particularly the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Paddick, the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, and my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern. The Chief Whip’s beeper is going so I think he wants me to keep my comments short.

Extradition is not an easy subject, but this has been most interesting legislation, with very well-drafted and thoughtful amendments. Everyone will benefit from the work done on this. I particularly thank officials from the Home Office, who have supported me so brilliantly throughout. I beg to move.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark [V]]

My Lords, I echo the noble Baroness’s comments. I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the proceedings on the Bill. I enjoyed working with everybody concerned. I think that we have made the Bill better. As always, the noble Baroness has been courteous and kind and always prepared to engage with me constructively. I also thank all her officials from the Home Office for the way they have worked with me during the Bill’s passage.

Quarantine: Scientific Advice

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Wednesday 10th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Balfe]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to publish the scientific advice upon which the travel quarantine measures are based.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con) [V]]

My Lords, SAGE, the Home Office’s chief scientific adviser and the Chief Medical Officer are clear that when the rate of domestic transmission is high, imported cases represent a small proportion of the total number and make no significant difference to the epidemic. The Home Secretary has agreed to publish a summary of this advice in due course.

[Lord Balfe (Con) [V]]

In her exchange on 4 June, the Minister said:

“The science advice has been consistent … It is for SAGE to determine when to publish its advice.”—[Official Report, 4/6/20; col. 1531.]


With respect, no: Ministers decide when to publish the advice. The Government’s measures are increasingly met with widespread derision and non-compliance. I therefore urge the Minister to say to SAGE that the advice must be published very soon if it is to have any credibility, otherwise the Government’s strategy in this field will, frankly, collapse.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford [V]]

It is a matter for SAGE when to publish its advice. It published advice from 23 March. As I said in my Answer, the Home Secretary has agreed to publish a summary of the advice in due course.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab) [V]]

The noble Baroness makes it sounds as though SAGE was rather lukewarm about this change. Could she tell us whether the national police chiefs’ guidance was shared with it, namely that it would not be the role of the police to conduct spot checks on those who should be isolating, and that they will act only if the public health authority suspects that someone is not following the guidelines? They ask how the public health authorities will know this, since, as the Immigration Service Union says, Border Force officers will not be able to check basic information such as the address at which a new arrival plans to self-isolate. They say that it is a shambles, so was SAGE told how much of a sham these quarantine rules are and is that why we are not being given more detail?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford [V]]

My Lords, I think that Parliament has been given a lot of detail on this. On spot checks, PHE will do dip sampling of 20% of arriving passengers. If information on where to contact people is not forthcoming at the border, a fine can be issued.

[Baroness Hamwee (LD) [V]]

My Lords, these regulations have been received with concern, incredulity and, I am afraid, contempt. Does the Minister accept that it is essential that the public have confidence in these measures, because the absence of confidence threatens the public’s adherence to all the Government’s measures?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford [V]]

I agree with the noble Baroness. Indeed, I took the opportunity to speak to Border Force yesterday about how things were going at the border. It had no problems yesterday. Looking at the general public’s compliance with the regulations thus far, there has been a high degree of not only compliance but support.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con) [V]]

My Lords, could my noble friend tell me what assessment the Government carried out on the impact of imposing a travel quarantine now on unemployment, tax revenues and the country’s overall health, and whether they will publish the results of that assessment? If no such assessment was made, how could this be considered a responsible decision?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford [V]]

It is definitely for the benefit of the economy for these measures to be reviewed and lifted as soon as possible. Of course, we have to balance the public health risks with the need to get the economy moving. Of course, we will get the economy moving just as soon as we possibly can.

[Lord St John of Bletso (CB) [V]]

Can the Minister explain the divergences from other European countries that have not adopted such draconian measures and give us some indication of the road map for when these restrictions will be eased? Have the Government costed the economic impact from these measures at a time when we are seeing a general easing of other restrictions?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford [V]]

Each country has its own methods of trying to control the virus, with some implementation of restrictions at the border. We know that Covid-19 will have a huge economic impact and we do not wish to keep some of the restrictive measures in place for any longer than we need to. It is absolutely the Government’s strong desire to get the economy up and running as soon as we can.

[Lord Rosser (Lab) [V]]

In the Commons on Monday, when challenged about the practicality of the quarantine plan, the Home Secretary said

“first of all, this is not my plan; this is a Government plan”.—[Official Report, Commons, 8/6/20; col. 15.]

That sounds like a nifty piece of political distancing. We are calling for a rapid 48-hour testing-led programme to allow people to safely exit quarantine more quickly and keep the country open for business; full publication of the SAGE advice on quarantining; a sector-specific support package to save jobs in industries at risk of collapse from the current measures; and clarity on plans and timelines for so-called air bridges. Will the Minister recommend our proposals to the Home Secretary?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford [V]]

My right honourable friend the Home Secretary talked about a government plan because the sort of measures we are putting in place need not only support across government but collective agreement across government. The noble Lord is right that the quicker the testing can be done—testing is speeding up all the time—the better. He will also have seen over the past few months that certain sectors have been more able to go about their business than others, the difficult areas being industries such as hospitality. On air bridges, we are talking to countries across the world about just this—where we can perhaps pair with countries that have similar rates of infection.

[Baroness Doocey (LD) [V]]

My Lords, inbound tourism brings in £9 billion from July to September, but industry experts expect this to drop to £500 million because of the quarantine restrictions. This will cost the tourism industry £650 million a week. The Centre for Economics and Business Research says that more than 90% of Britain’s summer tourism trade will be obliterated. In that light, what specific support are the Government prepared to give to the sector?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford [V]]

The noble Baroness will know, if she listened to my right honourable friend the Home Secretary the other day, that she is in constant dialogue with the Transport Secretary and countries around the world, looking at innovative techniques for lifting restrictions and, as the noble Lord, Lord St John of Bletso, mentioned, at air bridges and similar measures that could allow travel between countries.

[Baroness Pidding (Con) [V]]

My Lords, there has been much talk recently about bridges and travel corridors. Will the Government consider travel gates to block incoming travellers from certain countries, based on the science—a more targeted, risk-based approach to the screening of passengers?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford [V]]

My noble friend is right. We are aiming for a risk-based approach, based on other countries’ levels of infection and the public health of the people of this country. That is entirely what the strategy is about.

[Baroness Wheatcroft (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, as other noble Lords have made clear, the logic of bringing in quarantine at this stage is hard to understand. Was this proposal put before focus groups before it was adopted? Can the Minister assure the House that the Government are following the science, not the focus groups?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford [V]]

My Lords, mandatory self-isolation is certainly based on the science. The time to introduce restrictions is when infection rates in this country are low. We had some restrictions initially, when we hit the peak. Those restrictions were increasingly ineffective at controlling the virus. Now that we have got the infection rates low, it is time to introduce restrictions to keep the rate of the virus low.

[Lord Craig of Radley (CB) [V]]

My Lords, objection to and ridicule of this devolved policy is widespread. The SI for England is 22 pages, for Wales 26 pages. They are massively complicated—a valiant attempt to cover every other department’s wish list of exemptions. Scotland and Wales have differing fixed penalties to the England-only SI. As there is no unified UK policy, would it not be better to scrap it now, and not even wait for the three-week review?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford [V]]

My Lords, we would wish to instigate a four-nations approach, and we engage across four nations in an attempt to get unified approach. That has been our aim all along.

[Lord Wood of Anfield (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, on 4 April the EU and the UK experienced over 40,000 new Covid-19 cases, and the UK had no quarantine provision. Yesterday, the EU and the UK experienced just 16,000 new Covid-19 cases, a 60% reduction, and we now have a 14-day quarantine provision. How can there be any logic in insisting on quarantine for travellers from EU countries that have negligible numbers of new cases compared to ours, when transmission within the UK is overwhelmingly likely to come from UK residents and not foreign travellers?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford [V]]

The noble Lord makes a point about different rates of infection and the strategies that we have employed. When the initial rate was low, we were trying to contain the virus. Then the peak happened, and measures at the border were seen to be very ineffective. Now that they are now low again, mandatory self-isolation comes in to keep them low.

[Lord Moynihan (Con)]

My Lords, can the Minister confirm that the Government’s policy is to relax quarantine rules for elite sports so that soccer clubs can compete in European competitions, Formula 1’s plans for Silverstone can go ahead, and French horses entered for the Derby in three weeks’ time can do so, with appropriate safeguards but without a strict fortnight’s quarantine?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford [V]]

My Lords, it is absolutely the Government’s intention that if we can lift restrictive measures, we will. Many of us are keen to watch the football. I was supposed to be going to the Derby; I do not think I will see it in real time, but I might see it virtually. Based on the science, we are reviewing these things every three weeks.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB) [V]]

My Lords, why are frequently flying business travellers exempt, when this increases the chances of spreading the virus? Does this not make a nonsense of the restrictions, and is it not another case of one rule for some but not others?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford [V]]

My Lords, there are certain exemptions for people such as hauliers. We need people to deliver food to this country. In all decisions that the Government make, there is a balance to be struck between public health and not only the economy, but getting essential goods and services to the people of this country.

Public Order

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Tuesday 9th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Paddick (LD) [V]]

My Lords, this Statement is entitled Public Order and I declare an interest as being one of a small cadre of senior officers trained to lead the policing of disorder. Following my work as the police commander in Brixton—the so-called capital of black Britain—I accepted an invitation to address a University of Minnesota conference on the disproportionate incarceration of African Americans in the city where George Floyd tragically lost his life.

As the police themselves have said, and as the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, has just mentioned, the overwhelming majority of the Black Lives Matter protesters in the UK at the weekend were peaceful. There is justified anger about racism in the UK, in all its forms and in all parts of society, but there is a difference between explaining behaviour and justifying it. The appalling attacks on police officers and the damage to property cannot be justified, even though I understand that people are angry, that they feel they are not being heard, and that they believe demonstrating is the only way they can bring about change.

Policing by consent in the UK means policing with the support and co-operation of the public but when people refuse to comply with the reasonable and lawful requests of the police, officers have to switch from persuasion to the use of force, often instantly. That is difficult for individual officers and police leaders when peaceful protests turn violent. Often officers in ordinary uniform have to withdraw under a hail of missiles before officers in riot gear can replace them. It is not the police retreating or losing control of the streets; it is a necessary tactic but one that can lead to police casualties, and I send my best wishes to all former colleagues who have been affected by the violence they experienced this weekend, which, as I have said, was unacceptable.

In recent times police have deployed evidence gatherers—observers speaking into recording devices, and camera operators who record offences as they are committed—so that officers do not have to risk escalating the violence and depleting their numbers by arresting people at the peak of serious disorder. Instead, they investigate, identify and arrest those responsible after the event. It is a difficult operational decision whether to intervene at the time to prevent copycat offences, or to leave it until later, to prevent an escalation in violence and the risk of depleted police numbers being overwhelmed. But what it is not is the police allowing criminals to get away with it.

Of course, the coronavirus regulations prohibit gatherings of more than six people but this needs to be balanced against the human rights to free speech and the right of assembly, also established in statute. Unfortunately, following the Dominic Cummings fiasco, the Government are on very thin ice when people are apparently allowed to use their own judgment when it comes to obeying health regulations. Even Border Force officers are being told to “encourage” the completion of passenger location forms, and not to enforce the law on the quarantine of UK arrivals.

I have three questions that I would like the Minister to answer. First, in the light of these demonstrations, what health advice have the Government given to the police, and what PPE have the Government provided to ensure that officers are protected from coronavirus in such circumstances? If the Minister is going to say that the protests are illegal, that is clearly not stopping them taking place, and officers still need protection. Secondly, what action are the Government taking to acknowledge the justified concerns of those protesting about racism in the UK, to reassure them that they are being heard and that further demonstrations are therefore unnecessary? If the Minister is tempted to say, as one of her colleagues has suggested, that there is no racism in the UK, I remind her of the Wendy Williams report, the David Lammy review, and the disproportionate numbers of BAME people dying from coronavirus that the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, mentioned. Thirdly and finally, what pressure are the Government putting on the police service to either address the disproportionality or explain why you are 10 times more likely to be stopped and searched in the UK if you are black than if you are white, and two-and-a-half times more likely to die in police custody?

If the Minister is tempted to mention knife crime, I refer her to Home Office research that shows a 10% increase in stop and search results in only a 0.01% drop in non-domestic violent crime. If the Minister, for whom I have the greatest respect, is tempted to say that it is an operational matter for the police, why is the Home Secretary publicly criticising operational policing decisions around the toppling of the statue of a slave trader in Bristol? If the Home Secretary can put pressure on the police to make arrests, she can put pressure on the police to address disproportionality.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

I thank both noble Lords for the points that they have raised. I join them in wishing the officers who have been injured a full recovery. I understand that the figure to date is 62 and that 137 arrests have been made. I also join the noble Lords in condemning the violence. I can understand and totally concur that black lives matter but violence undermined what those people were trying to very peacefully protest about, as the noble Lords said. With regard to the destruction of the statue of Edward Colston, both noble Lords have condemned the violence, and neither are sorry to see the back of a slave trader. I can understand those points but there is a broader point about doing things in a democratic and peaceful way. Actually, that statue could have been removed years ago, had it been done in a democratic way.

It is sad that the story is no longer about Black Lives Matter but has been overtaken by violence. Behind this, of course, is the brutal killing of George Floyd; so awful was that video that I could barely watch it. Let us remember him rather than some of the violence, but we cannot escape from the need now to tackle it.

We also need to look at the public health dangers that were caused by people being far too close to one another. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, talked about the disparities involved, with black men being more susceptible to coronavirus. No one is quite sure why that is, but it certainly seems to be the case. It is all the more worrying that so many people were gathered so closely together on Sunday.

The noble Lord asked me about the Wendy Williams report response and when Parliament will hear it. Wendy Williams was very clear, as I recall from when I read out the Statement about her report, that she wanted the Home Secretary not just to have a knee-jerk reaction to it but to take some time to reflect on it, and that is what she will do. The response will be with Parliament within the allotted time limit.

The noble Lord talked about racism continuing to impact lives and about the Home Secretary understanding the burning injustices that it inflicts upon society. She talked yesterday about a whole-government response to inequality and injustice. This does not just come down to one department; actually we are all responsible for it, and so indeed is society.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, talked about the overwhelming majority of people protesting peacefully, and of course he was right. He talked about how difficult it is for the police when a peaceful protest suddenly turns violent. Of course it is; they suddenly have to adjust to a different set of circumstances, often with absolutely no notice. He talked about body-worn video helping the police, and that is true: rather than making arrests at the time, they can go back to study the video. That helps from the point of view both of the police and indeed of anyone who is being accused.

The noble Lord talked about the health advice to those front-line police. The public health advice to front-line police is absolutely the same as that for any member of the public. We know that the police are well equipped with PPE, and they should deploy it as appropriate.

The noble Lord talked about acknowledging concerns about racism in this country. I acknowledge it—I came here in the 1970s as an immigrant—and I know the Home Secretary acknowledges it as well. We have made improvements in BAME recruitment to the police, but we certainly have not got there, and Sunday was almost an explosion of that frustration.

On the noble Lord’s point about black people being 10 times more likely to be stopped and searched, the most recent publication of stop and search figures for the year ending March 2019 showed that there were a total of 383,629 searches, resulting in 58,876 arrests under Section 1 of PACE and Section 60 of CJPOA. That is down from a peak of approximately 1.2 million stop and searches in 2011. Of course, the thing about stop and search is that it is designed to help those vulnerable people who might be at risk of attack themselves. However, for both Section 1 and Section 60 there is a larger proportion of those stopped and searched who self-identify as black or BAME.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Alderdice) (LD)]

We now come to the 20 minutes allocated for Back-Bench questions. I ask that questions and answers be brief, so that I can call the maximum number of speakers.

[Baroness Warsi (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I echo the sentiments of my noble friend and the noble Lords, Lord Rosser and Lord Paddick. As someone who has both family and friends in the police, I know the amazing work that our police do every day in this country. However, does my noble friend accept that what we saw in the small incidents of public disorder were simply the symptoms of racism, not the disease, which results in the inequalities that the protests are about? We have had the Lammy review, the Williams report and indeed the race disparity audit, which reported back in 2017. Could my noble friend give words of hope and practical examples of what the Government are doing to deal with the disease of racism that feeds the inequalities which resulted in the public disorder?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I agree with my noble friend that what we saw on Sunday was a symptom of the frustration that people feel about racism, both overt and covert, within our country. We need more diversity in the workplace, in Parliament and in all sorts of areas of life. My noble friend will have heard the Prime Minister addressing the public yesterday about this and talking about how across government we need to drive this out. This is not about one particular department of government or one particular individual; it is about a public collective in terms of driving this sort of poison out of our society.

[Lord Woolf (CB) [V]]

I have listened to what has been said in the House so far and read the debate that took place after the Statement that was made yesterday in the Commons. I acknowledge the balanced approach that Members of Parliament are taking to the very real problem that has arisen here. Does the Minister agree that what has been said about what happened indicates problems in relation to the rule of law, which is so important to uphold in order to induce a sense of fairness? Is it not also clear regarding some of the problems that exist, not only the matters that we are considering today but also Windrush, that it is time that more resources were made available to the criminal justice system as a whole and that a long-term report, perhaps by a royal commission, needs to be done into the criminal justice system generally so as to improve the sense of fairness?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think the noble and learned Lord is right about the balanced approach and the importance of the rule of law. I respect those who very peacefully protested on Sunday, but of course that was completely undermined by those who just flouted the rule of law and those who put other people at risk of the virus when we are going through quite a critical stage in in trying to wipe it out. The noble and learned Lord talks about more resources for the criminal justice system. From a Home Office point of view, our ambition to recruit an extra 20,000 police officers over the next few years is well on track to be delivered. I hope that, as he says, the whole fairness of the criminal justice system will lead to a public feeling of a more fair and equal society.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op) [V]]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that one of the causes of the protest and the pulling-down of the Colston statue in Bristol was the failure to act on previous lawful representations about that statue and the frustration caused? Why is the Prime Minister now refusing to meet with Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London? Why are the Government refusing to deal with legitimate BAME concerns, such as Windrush? Will the Government ever learn to start listening to peaceful representations, particularly from elected Members?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the Colston statue is in Bristol, and therefore is a matter for the elected representatives of Bristol to deal with democratically. If people are not happy with the democratic process in Bristol, they can do something about it at the ballot box. If people want to make representations to Sadiq Khan about the various statues they may object to across London, it is for them to do so.

[Lord Dholakia (LD) [V]]

My Lords, it is 72 years since the arrival of the “Empire Windrush” and three factors have remained constant. Racism and racial discrimination are a reality in the lives of the black and ethnic minority community. Geographically and economically, they find themselves in the same place that was allocated to most of them when they arrived here. Institutions and organisations seldom take into account the diversity of our nation. Mrs May’s equality audit has taken us nowhere forward. Islamophobia prevails in our political structure. Violence will never be an answer; we need a political leadership that values the contribution of our black and Asian community. Where will this come from? Is it not time that the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary spoke about the future of our multiracial Britain?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I do not disagree with the noble Lord. Parliamentary representation and leadership within government have a long way to go, but we have certainly come a long way in the last few years, in terms of the leadership of our country. The culture is changing slowly but surely, and I am very pleased that our Home Secretary is from the BME community.

[Lord Pickles (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I fully accept that there is much to do to make British society more equal and just, and I encourage the Government in their endeavours. But is my noble friend surprised that some of those who have been most critical of every easing of the lockdown have been prominent in supporting mass gatherings, risking a second wave of Covid-19? There is no getting away from the fact that these gatherings play fast and loose with the life chances of the most vulnerable.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend is absolutely right: it is perverse that those most critical of the easing of the lockdown should then put themselves in a position in which not only they, but those from BME communities, are at risk.

[Viscount Waverley (CB) [V]]

The Prime Minister and Home Secretary must follow through. Having recognised that issues of endemic racism exist, they should be firmly addressed. Why not establish a progress barometer or national ratings scheme for public bodies, eventually extending to the private sector? Moving on, does the Minister concur that the UK leads the world in its humane manner of policing, and exports its training internationally? Could we not offer such to one of our closest allies, or have we done so already?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

To answer the second question from the noble Viscount first, it always strikes me, when I look at the police system we have in this country and at some of the methods that police have across the world, that we are lucky to have the police forces that we do. They run into danger, rather than away from it. They keep us safe and police by consent. We are incredibly lucky as a nation to have them. By a rating system, public and private, I assume he means a system of diversity. We already have that in place across government and we talk about it regularly, particularly when we celebrate International Women’s Day, when we also talk about other types of equality. The Government cannot criticise if they are not doing their job themselves, and there is improvement in diversity across all areas of government.

[Baroness Kennedy of Cradley (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, what I find most disappointing about the Statement is that it focuses on the actions of the minority, whose violent behaviour we all denounce, and not on the reasons why thousands of peaceful protesters, supported by millions from their homes, were on the streets in the first place. Would the noble Baroness correct that missed opportunity today and set out what action the Government are taking to deal with the institutional racism that exists within our criminal justice system, as regards stop and search, arrests, charges and convictions?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness. It is a shame that we are talking about the public order offences, which have completely overshadowed what people were trying to talk about in the first place, which was peaceful protest against the awful events that happened in America. The minority have made that impossible. The noble Baroness is right to talk about the wider point of stop and search. The Government will be working across the piece to address some of those injustices.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con) [V]]

My Lords, will my noble friend commend the example of the organiser of the justified and peaceful protests in Glasgow Green, in his efforts to protect innocent protesters from the dangers of the virus? He tried his best to ensure that they were at proper distances apart.

Secondly, it is not for the Government alone to deal with this; it is a question for all the organisations in our country to deal with. The organisation that perhaps I know most closely in this country is the Bar of England and Wales, and I am glad to know that, in recent years, the number of those belonging to ethnic minority and black communities is increasing. Last time I saw the statistic, it suggested that the proportion of such in the Bar of England and Wales is about the same as in the general population.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend brings me two pieces of good news this morning. I am very pleased to note those statistics from the Bar of England and Wales. We do see improvements across the piece—in the police, in Parliament and in government departments—but there is a way to go. I am delighted that the organiser of the peaceful protest in Glasgow Green made sure not just that social distancing took place but that everything went off peacefully. That individual is to be commended.

[Lord McNally (LD) [V]]

My Lords, we are not the first society that has had to face uncomfortable truths about its past history or present injustices. Some have addressed them by inquiries of peace and reconciliation, which have allowed those societies to face up to those problems. Could the Minister consider developing the idea put forward by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, of a royal commission that could look at these matters, with a duty of peace and reconciliation? I suggest there is a chairman readily available with the retirement of the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York, John Sentamu. He would give confidence to both sides, while such an inquiry took place.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, one of the points made in the Commons yesterday was that deeds and actions will speak to issues like this the most loudly. A royal commission is one idea, but I think that across every stratum of society—from our democracy in local and national government to the institutions that serve government to the private and public sectors in our country—it is the collective effort that will make the real difference.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]]

I have to confess that I am deeply dissatisfied with some of the answers we are getting today. It is no surprise that there is systemic racism in the police; it has been going on for decades and decades—the report into the Stephen Lawrence case made recommendations back in 1999. I am afraid that the noble Baroness did not answer the question put to her by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, because the people of Bristol have in fact tried to get rid of that statue many times, and democracy failed in that case. Will the noble Baroness please answer the question put by the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of Cradley: what are the Government going to do? The Minister has said that the Government are going to work across the piece, but what does that mean?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I should say to the noble Baroness, who is also my noble friend, that if democracy failed in Bristol, democracy is failing in Bristol and it is up to the people of Bristol to vote in a more effective democracy. I do not think that there is one single answer to some of the systemic issues in what we have seen. We have to work across government and all the strata of society in order to make that cultural change.

[Lord Caine (Con) [V]]

My Lords, while I completely understand, not least because of my own experience in Northern Ireland, that the police often have to make very difficult judgments in public order situations, does my noble friend agree that it is none the less vital to public confidence that the law is still enforced? Is not one of the lessons we learned from what we saw in the summer of 2011 that this is more effective when it is done quickly?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I agree absolutely with my noble friend. It is not only best that it is done quickly, but it is what the public expects.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, when watching the violent destruction of the statue in Bristol on Sunday, I was struck by the absence of any police presence. Sir Robert Peel, in founding the police in 1829, stated that the basic mission for which the police exists is to prevent crime and disorder. Does the noble Baroness believe that the Avon and Somerset police force fulfilled that mission?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the way in which the police organise themselves for various situations is of course a matter for the police. Reflecting on the words of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, I think that it is quite often the case that, early on, things seem to be quite peaceful and then suddenly they get out of order. However, I am sure that reflections on the events on Sunday will lead to some lessons learned.

[Lord Cormack (Con) [V]]

My Lords, no words are too strong to condemn those who hijacked the peaceful demonstrations, but I am very concerned about the size of the peaceful demonstrations and the fact that most of them did not find themselves conducted as they were in Glasgow. Will my noble friend please discuss with the Home Secretary the possibility of convening a consultation with all the responsible leaders who are concerned about these issues? Can they ensure that there are no more mass demonstrations which could endanger the life of the whole community, in particular those from black and ethnic minority communities? Could this be done as a matter of urgency and then clear guidelines issued?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I must confess that I found some parts of my noble friend’s question difficult to hear. I think that what he was saying—I hope that he will nod or shake his head accordingly—is that there are lessons to be learned from Sunday in terms of not holding mass protests where the lives of black and ethnic minority individuals in particular are put in danger because of the lack of social distancing. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary made it absolutely clear yesterday that the regulations are there to be upheld and that that should be the lesson from now on in.

Child Sex Predators

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Thursday 4th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Benjamin (LD)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and declare an interest as a champion of the Internet Watch Foundation.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, child sexual abuse is an abhorrent crime and tackling it is a key priority for the Home Office. We aim to prevent offending by halting the escalation of harmful sexual behaviour in young people. We support the Lucy Faithfull Foundation’s Stop It Now! campaign, which signposts those concerned about their behaviour towards confidential support, and the joint project by the Marie Collins Foundation and the Internet Watch Foundation to increase awareness of the law.

[Baroness Benjamin]

I thank the noble Baroness for her Answer. In April, during lockdown, data from three internet companies serving the UK market and deploying the Internet Watch Foundation’s webpage blocking list identified 8.8 million attempts to access known sexual abuse imagery of innocent children. The IWF is essential in preventing internet users, especially young men, accessing—often accidentally—this type of horrific content and going on to commit sexual offences. What are the Government doing to tackle the issue of the estimated 300,000 people who currently pose a threat to children in the UK, and what steps are they taking to encourage smaller ISPs that do not deploy the list?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness points towards the international response required here. We not only engage with our Five Eyes partners but employ technology for takedown of such images, as do our international partners. We engage with our police and law enforcement agencies to enable the takedown of these sorts of images. On a practical level, we work with NGOs to ensure that children are kept safe online and that some of the things they do online are safe.

[Lord Mann (Non-Afl)]

Evidence to the child abuse inquiry is very clear: major trauma in teenage years can be directly correlated to future dysfunctional sexual behaviour. How will an integrated early intervention strategy for these teenagers fit into government policy?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right to point that out. The evidence is very clear. The obligatory RSE that will start in secondary schools from September will be very helpful in pointing children to what a healthy relationship looks like, as opposed to those encouraged by some of the things they might hear from their friends or see online.

[Lord Moynihan (Con)]

My Lords, sadly this is a problem we need to be alert to in the world of sport. In that context, will my noble friend commend the work of the NSPCC’s Child Protection in Sport Unit, which builds the capacity of sports to safeguard children in and through sport and enables sports organisations to lead the way in keeping children safe from harm?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I certainly will. During this lockdown period we provided funding to the NSPCC which helps parents keep their children safe online too.

[Baroness Lane-Fox of Soho (CB)]

I declare my interests as noted in the register. With an increase in harms to children online during this pandemic, the pushback of the online harms Bill and no date yet set for the code of conduct so tirelessly campaigned for by my noble friend Lady Kidron, when will the Government commit to filling the gaps left by these pushbacks and delays?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The delays are regrettable. We will come forward with the online harms Bill as soon as we possibly can.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

Lord Morris of Aberavon. Lord Morris? Baroness Walmsley.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, will the Government provide the 10% of funding for the UK Safer Internet Centre currently provided by the European Union after the end of the transition phase of leaving the EU? Childnet gets 50% of its funding from the EU, so is even more vulnerable.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, efforts to combat CSA come from a number of funding sources, from the Home Office and elsewhere, and various NGOs. We will base our funding decisions on the best needs of children in this country and how to keep them safe.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

My Lords, I also declare my interest as a long-term champion of the Internet Watch Foundation. There is clear evidence that the chat functions of popular online games and apps are often used by sexual predators to gain access to their victims. Is enough being done by the Government to ensure that parents and those providing these apps and games are aware of the threat?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

We are very concerned about some of these games and apps, particularly those with end-to-end encryption, which means that the CSPs themselves cannot see inside them. Therefore, they and law enforcement may not be able to see evidence of child sexual abuse. The Five Eyes are working very hard to this end.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

What specific criteria or objectives have the Government set themselves by which they can be held to account for their success or failure to address the disturbing incidence of child sex abuse and the equally awful reality of child sex predators?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Even before lockdown began, one of the things that I and other Ministers in the Home Office were most concerned about was not just domestic abuse but child sexual abuse and exploitation online. During lockdown the NCA has continued to target high-risk online CSA offenders. It has executed 47 warrants, made 51 arrests in 21 police force areas and safeguarded or protected 105 children, with 416 devices seized. The NCA has also disseminated 2,600 online CSA packages to UK policing during lockdown.

[Lord German (LD)]

My Lords, in response to an earlier question the Minister talked about the online harms Bill coming before Parliament “as soon as we possibly can.” However, we have still not received the response to the Government’s White Paper on this matter. Can the Minister assure me that before November this year we will get a response to it? Will the legislation appear before 2022, or will we have to wait that long before we can see a Bill to rectify this matter?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

When I gave evidence to HASC the other week with Caroline Dinenage, she committed towards having it before the end of the year.

[The Lord Speaker]

My Lords, we have come to the end of the third Question.

Covid-19: UK Border Health Measures

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Thursday 4th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, I would prefer to look forward, but I cannot avoid putting this measure into the context of current public attitudes. This is not just about quarantine; it is about how much confidence the public have in what the Government say and in what they tell us to do. There is a widespread view that these quarantine measures are unenforceable, and an even wider view that the Government have lost touch with reality. Today, the Prime Minister, in the vaccine summit, is urging the world to act collaboratively. Has it not occurred to the Government that, given our high rates of infection compared with many—probably most —of the countries to which people from the UK wish to travel, and to which they will therefore return, the risks to those countries are greater than to the UK? Last Friday, the UK had more deaths than the whole of the EU and EEA in total. Sir Patrick Vallance yesterday summed up what the public are thinking.

We have had monitoring and triaging at the border. Will that apply to those exempt from quarantine? I am interested to know from the Minister when the Government will publish in full the advice they have received, to which the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, has just referred, and the extent of consultation with stakeholders, including those who can reliably advise on the availability of tracking, tracing and testing.

Regarding enforcement, what discretion will there be on the level of fine and how will it be enforced when the recipient has returned abroad? We have just heard the Statement on the aviation industry, so I am not glossing over the issues with that by making just two points. Is progress being made in thinking about moves towards reducing damage to the environment by frequent flying? And, more immediately, how will the—presumably socially distanced—queues at the border be handled? We have seen images of Tuesday’s queues of MPs unencumbered by luggage, although possibly encumbered by baggage. Can the Government tell noble Lords the level of holiday bookings in place through to September? They must have talked to the industry.

It is not open to many people to take a holiday and then a period of isolation, so people must be cancelling. Many will have travel insurance. What do the insurers have to say about meeting claims on that basis? I hope that the Minister will not say that this depends on the detail of each policy. It is a wider point. I say that because I know that, in a different sector, there has been resistance to paying out when the insured thought that they had all the right cover.

I particularly want to ask about business travel. I had seen no comment on this until Mrs May’s observation yesterday that

“international air travel is necessary for trade; without it, there is no global Britain.”—[Official Report, Commons, 3/6/20; col. 850.]

There must be many people who, as part of their work, come and go between the UK, France, Belgium and further afield on a frequent basis. Of course, there is also travel for family reasons. There are people who work in the UK in large or small microbusinesses but whose home is in France, and vice versa, or who work in both countries but not on a regular basis of at least once a week, as the statutory instrument envisages. Why not have an exemption for people who travel irregularly and less frequently? Would that not actually give more of a chance for an infection to show itself? We heard in the previous Statement that there is no minimum period for a stay abroad, even if it is a couple of hours.

Is there any exemption for people who need to travel for international humanitarian purposes? I do not mean health workers coming to the UK. I did find it ironic to read that services to ensure the continued operation of the aviation industry are exempt. What estimate is there—I particularly want the Minister to share this with noble Lords—of the numbers of people exempted through the 12 pages of categories scheduled to the SI? What guidance will be published on matters such as travel to and from airports, or, given the restrictions on the hospitality industry, finding a hotel in which to self-isolate? The Home Secretary said yesterday that this would be in advance of 8 June; well, it would have to be. What assessment has been made of the likely transmission from those who are exempt, as compared with the extent of transmission if there were no restriction?

People need to plan ahead as far as they can in uncertain times. The quarantine measures are to be reviewed in three weeks. I end specifically by urging the Government to reconsider that period and to apply a serious—not tick-box—weekly review, and, generally, by urging clarity and coherence.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

I thank noble Lords for their questions. The science advice has been consistent. It has been clear that

“as the number of cases in the UK decreases, the potential proportion of imported cases may increase”.

So, as noble Lords have said, we need to manage the risk of infections being introduced from elsewhere. When the virus was at its peak, these measures would have been ineffective.

SAGE minutes of 23 March stated that

“numbers of cases arriving from other countries are estimated to be insignificant compared with domestic cases, comprising approximately 0.5%”.

It is for SAGE to determine when to publish its advice. Of course, the minutes have been published and are on the GOV.UK website. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked what SAGE thinks of certain government decisions; it is for SAGE to advise the Government rather than approve government decisions. He asked about the next review date and whether there would be an Oral Statement on each review date. I am not sure about that, but I am happy to commit to doing one—and if I do not, I am sure that noble Lords will ensure that I do.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, also asked about the tourism industry. I recognise that the measures will have an impact on tourism and the aviation industry, which are significant contributors to the UK economy. The Government continue to support businesses in the tourism sector through one of the most generous economic packages provided anywhere in the world. We have always recognised that the measures we have taken to limit the spread of Covid-19 will have a substantial impact on our economy, including on sectors such as tourism, but that was essential to protect the NHS and save lives. The Government will continue to work with the travel industry and other countries through forums such as the OECD and the G20 to co-ordinate an international response. We want to ensure that the UK remains an internationally competitive destination for business and leisure and that, when it is safe to do so, UK residents can resume travel and support the UK’s outbound tourism sector.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, talked about people travelling from the Republic of Ireland to Northern Ireland. Those arriving in England on a journey from another part of the CTA—Ireland, the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands—will be required to provide locator details and self-isolate only if they have entered the CTA within the last 14 days. For example, if they travel to England through another part of the CTA but their journey started from a destination outside the CTA within the last 14 days, they will have to self-isolate only until they have spent a total of 14 days in the CTA. Those who have been in the CTA for longer than 14 days will not have to provide locator details or self-isolate.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, asked about the penalty for breach. Given the high levels of compliance we have seen to our measures to date, we expect that the majority of people will do the right thing and abide by these measures. The police will continue to use their powers proportionately and will engage, explain, encourage, and only as a last resort enforce. That is how they have acted all through this, but they will take enforcement action against the minority of people who endanger the safety of others. That is the right thing to do.

British nationals and foreign citizens who fail to comply with the mandatory conditions could face enforcement action. A breach of self-isolation would be punishable with a £1,000 fixed-penalty notice in England or potential prosecution and unlimited fine. The level of fine will be kept under review and immigration action will be considered as a last resort for foreign nationals. The legislation is created under the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984.

In terms of the proportion of arrivals who will be exempt, we think that it will capture an estimated 11% of arrivals. The noble Baroness also asked about travel to and from the airport. It is being advised that you do not use public transport to travel to and from an airport but take the car of the person you are staying with.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Newlove) (Con)]

We now come to the 30 minutes allocated for Back-Bench questions. I ask that questions and answers be brief, so that I can call the maximum number of speakers.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

My Lords, while I thank my noble friend the Minister, I regret that I have to join the critics of this policy. When Europe is talking about freeing its cross-border movement—15 June is a likely date—we are in danger of freezing and closing ours down. This can only bring disastrous economic consequences to our country as we seek a global role. Can my noble friend the Minister name any Schengen country with a higher rate of infection than us? If she has not such information to hand, will she write to me with the relevant infection rates? While quarantine will reduce movement and risk, does not the fundamental fault of the scheme lie in the lack of selectivity between countries based on their levels of infection and our own?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank my noble friend. I can name one Schengen country with a higher rate per capita, and that is Sweden. Of course, each country has put in place its own measures. It is difficult to state the relative death numbers with any certainty now; it will be far easier to see with hindsight when we come through this pandemic, hopefully in the next few months. As for Europe, cross-border movement and why we are doing what we are doing now, I hope I can give my noble friend comfort in saying that we will keep these things under review. They are being reviewed every three weeks. Of course, what we want is to be able to lift restrictions and get this country moving and the economy back in action as soon as we possibly can.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The noble Lord, Lord Singh of Wimbledon, has withdrawn. I call the noble Lord, Lord Paddick.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, the regulations make clear that you do not have to complete a passenger locator form prior to arrival in the UK. You may not have internet access abroad or be computer literate. What happens if someone does not complete a form and is not one of the one in 10 spot-checked by Border Force at the UK border? How will their quarantine be enforced?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it is advised to have a form completed before arrival at the airport. I understand that Border Force will check whether people have forms completed and will enforce if people do not. I assume—though not with absolute certainty—that forms will be available at the airport should people not have filled them in before they get there. There will be strict enforcement of the filling in of these forms.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, I would like to probe a little further the scientific basis of this decision. The Government keep telling us that they are being led by the science and scientists but, as I understand it, the scientific advisory group was not even consulted over this specific decision before it was taken, which is why there has been so much criticism from that quarter. Today, for instance, Professor Robert Dingwall said there was a need

“to get the level in this country significantly further down”

to ensure that quarantining travellers would be “a useful measure”. I have one specific question for the Minister: was the scientific advisory group consulted over this specific decision before it was taken? If not, what scientific legitimacy can the Minister and the Government now claim for the decision?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it is important to make clear at this stage that we are led by the science. SAGE, the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies, advises the Government, and it is for the Government to make policy decisions.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I refer to my entries in the register of interests. My noble friend will be aware that, within British sport, rugby league is unique in that three overseas teams compete in two of our domestic leagues—Catalans Dragons and Toronto Wolfpack in the Super League and Toulouse in the Championship. Each team plays home and away fixtures. A 14-day quarantine period that encompasses players and staff risks making any fixtures involving these overseas clubs extremely difficult, if not impossible, when the rugby league season finally resumes. Will my noble friend take this issue back to the Home Secretary? In considering possible sporting exemptions, will she ensure that rugby league, which has great experience in managing teams in and out of the UK, is fully involved in these discussions?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

These are cross-government decisions where Ministers engage with each other. I understand the huge strength of feeling in rugby, football and the many other sports which people would love to have back and engage with. As I have said previously, the Government will regularly review its decisions and the rules that are in place every three weeks. We are committed to getting this country up and free and running—or playing rugby—as soon as we possibly can.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, I fully understand that this is a difficult judgment call, but I fear that it might isolate the United Kingdom. What issues have shaped how the Government have prioritised decision-making, given that protecting lives is fundamental? Safeguarding British industry that needs to de-risk its supply chain construction is essential, as is contributing to the economies of emerging markets on which the UK relies for supply and demand.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally concur with the points that the noble Viscount makes. Central to the Government’s strategy all along has been reducing the R rate, saving lives, protecting the NHS and, ultimately, getting rid of this virus.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, I understand the rationale for the decision, which is that we should seek to constrain the transmission of the virus from areas with community transmission to places where it might otherwise be brought where community transmission has been controlled and constrained. The problem at the moment is that we have significant elements of community transmission, and there are a significant number of European countries where there is now no evidence of such transmission. It is the wrong way round. Will my noble friend at least tell the House that the Government will consider whether there is a case for some specific exemptions for those countries—principally, at the moment, our neighbours in Europe—where there is no continuing evidence of community transmission of the virus?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

We will, of course, be taking such matters into consideration. I do not know if my noble friend heard my right honourable friend the Home Secretary say yesterday that bilateral conversations were going on with countries across the world to see what kind of innovations we could bring forward in order to make movement easier.

[Lord Dholakia (LD)]

My Lords, will the Minister give a categoric assurance that public health measures will not be used as immigration control procedures? What is being done to monitor the visa regime at British posts abroad before people travel to the United Kingdom? What procedures are being adopted to deal with the large number of asylum seekers who have landed on our shores in recent times? Can the Minister give further assurance that there will be no more fishing raids where these people have found accommodation? Otherwise, we will create a bigger problem than we are trying to solve.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The prime drive for the Government is not immigration control, but to ensure that we reduce this virus and the R rate, and that we save lives. The measures that have been put in place are not for any immigration reasons, although immigration enforcement could be used if people persistently flout the rules that we have just put in place. We will ensure that anyone in the asylum system is given appropriate accommodation, in line with public health guidance in terms of social distancing.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

I draw attention to my declaration. It is not my intention to shoot the messenger—I both respect and like the noble Baroness—but perhaps she can pass on the strength of feeling in this House, and a very simple message. If the signal you are sending damages your higher education, business and trade, travel and hospitality, and is seen universally as irrational and unworkable, is it not time to stop digging?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, these measures will be in place from 8 June and will of course regularly be reviewed. I totally concur with the points made by the noble Lord. The last thing that we want to do is damage any of the things that he talks about, but we also have a duty to keep the public safe and healthy.

[Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford (Con)]

I am not sure whether SAGE was consulted on this matter, but the Minister will understand that on measures so consequential, transparency is in all our interests. In this spirit, will she undertake to ensure that SAGE and the CMOs of all four nations are consulted as part of the rolling review process?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it is fair to say that SAGE advises the Government and the Government make decisions on the back of that advice; SAGE also published the minutes up to 1 May. There would be no point in having SAGE if the Government did not at least value the quality of its advice. At the beginning of this, the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, thanked Border Force. I neglected to join him in doing so, but I also put on record my thanks to SAGE, which has been phenomenal throughout this process.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, from 8 June, some people arriving here will not only face 14 days of quarantine but have stamped in their passports “no recourse to public funds”. I am sure that the noble Baroness the Minister—unlike the Prime Minister—knows what that means: that they cannot access universal credit and disability, housing and child benefits, and are therefore at grave risk in the midst of the Covid epidemic, of which, as the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, said this morning, we face a second spike. Yesterday, a court ruled that the policy is unlawful. Will the Government remove the requirement of “no recourse to public funds” to ensure that everyone in Britain has access to the help that they need?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I absolutely assure the noble Baroness that everyone in Britain will have the help that they need. “No recourse to public funds” does not mean that people will not have access to healthcare; they will. Nobody needs to find themselves without accommodation—the Government have purchased hotel rooms to ensure that—and nobody will find themselves without access to food either.

[Lord Maude of Horsham (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as an adviser to IFM, which is a shareholder in Manchester Airports Group, but also as someone who I think has had this virus so I know what it is like. Of course everyone will understand the concern that there is to minimise infections in future, but because of that it is extremely important that we in this House—but also the public more widely—see and understand the scientific advice that lies behind this measure, when it involves a move from there being no health checks whatsoever at the border to what look like the most stringent controls anywhere in the world. Will my noble friend undertake that this measure will be subjected to really genuine review as soon as possible with a presumption in favour of a swift reversal, and in the meantime urgently seek bilateral arrangements to mitigate the very significant downside effects that noble Lords have already identified?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I absolutely give that commitment to my noble friend. The sooner that these measures are lifted the better, because it means that the virus will have been completely suppressed, the country will be opening up again and the economy will be moving. Manchester Airport, which I visited just before lockdown started—it was absolutely ghostly at the time, and I do not think any planes have flown out of there in the last few weeks—is my local airport, and I absolutely look forward to it being up and running again.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, it is widely commented that this is a three-week window-dressing exercise that is political rather than led by the science, in order to save certain faces. Can the Minister answer with a yes or no the question that was asked yesterday in the other place and earlier in this House by, among others, the noble Lord, Lord Reid: was SAGE consulted on, and did it recommend, the measures in the new regulations? Yes or no?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Yes, my Lords, the Government are led by the science. It is up to SAGE if it wants to publish papers but it is absolutely not compelled to do so. It has published its minutes up to 1 May. As I said before, SAGE advises the Government and it is up to the Government to make decisions based on that advice.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

I would like to follow up on the penetrating questions asked by the noble Lords, Lord Taylor of Holbeach and Lord Lansley. Surely it must be the case, and surely this is the logic of the scientific advice, that whether you need quarantine when you arrive from a particular country depends on the rate of infection in that country. If countries have very low rates of infection, why on earth are we worrying about arrivals from those countries? Should the principle of differentiation between countries according to their rates of infection not be a fundamental part of this policy if it is to be continued at all?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, that is why the UK is engaging with different countries and airlines on all sorts of considerations while it considers what the next stage of this process will be. The Government are very keen to review this as soon as we possibly can within the next three weeks, and then the next stages of decision-making will be stated.

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

My Lords, I have no regard for the opinions of Ryanair, which has refunded only 5% of its passengers, nor of easyJet, where 63% are waiting for a refund. However, will the Minister please reassure me about enforcement? If the police will not enforce the law yesterday, with massed demonstrators packed closely into Whitehall, how will this be enforced with individuals scattered throughout the country?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the reason why the locator form is so important is that people will be contacted and enforcement carried out to ensure that people follow the rules. However, as has been the case through lockdown, I think people see the importance of looking out for each other, because each time we break the rules we run the risk of infecting our loved ones and people in our community.

[Baroness Scott of Needham Market (LD)]

Can the noble Baroness reflect on the difficulties experienced by police in the early days of the lockdown concerning regulation and law versus guidance? Can she tell us what lessons her department learned from that, and how we can make sure that the three agencies involved are very clear about the difference between statute and guidance?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Yes, this was the subject of a question to me a few weeks ago. There were some hiccups at the beginning of this process, and of course the media ran the odd story about the police perhaps being a bit overzealous. The police have, to a huge degree, got not only the consent but the support of the public. Something like 74% of the public think that the police are doing the right thing in how they go about enforcing—in fact, some people think that they should have been even stricter. But I totally take the noble Baroness’s point that people should understand the difference between what the law is and what the guidance is. The regulations are the law and the guidance assists in the application of the law.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

I declare my interests as in the register, which include two jobs in Brussels, where I generally spend two days a fortnight—I am talking to noble Lords from there now. I am told that, under the regulations, if I do one day a week, I can travel to and from Brussels without being put into quarantine, and that these measures are backed by the science. But given that, this afternoon, Eurostar had not the faintest idea of what documents I would need to produce to escape being put into quarantine, and given that—with due respect to the Minister—I am still waiting for a reply to an email to her, what science was used to say that I should take four journeys a month instead of two?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I apologise to my noble friend publicly for him not having had an answer to his email. As he knows, the rules will start from Monday 8 June, so it is perhaps not surprising that Eurostar was not entirely sighted on some of the rules that will be in place.

[Lord Jones of Cheltenham (LD)]

My Lords, on arriving in Botswana on 27 February, my temperature was taken at the airport. I was asked for details of my visit and handed a leaflet explaining what to do if I felt any symptoms of coronavirus. Those with raised temperatures were taken into isolation and tested for the virus. Similar checks were in place in South Africa and Zambia. It was a surprise that, on returning to Heathrow Airport on 12 March, there were no tests at all—not even a leaflet. Why are we so far behind other countries which, with much fewer available resources than our own, followed the science? We are asking people now to complete a form, with no testing, and then letting them catch trains, buses and taxis to all parts of the United Kingdom. This achieves what, exactly? The noble Baroness is the best Minister in the House, but is this just another attempt to divert attention from the Dominic Cummings scandal?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lord for that kind remark. He mentioned trains and buses, but it is actually advised not to take public transport. On his point about the temperature test, it tells you only that you have a temperature; it does not tell you why. The people who are incubating the virus will not present with a temperature, which is why we decided against temperature testing; it would either give false comfort or not tell the full picture. It literally just tells you: “You have got a temperature.”

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, and indeed with other noble Lords in their warm support for the Minister, but I also agree on the need to stop digging now. Does she agree that it would have been much better to introduce these quarantine regulations in March, with the lockdown, and that they should now be amended to be much more selective because of the huge economic damage and small health gain involved?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, we will not have these measures in place for any longer than we need to, and, as I say, they will be the subject of regular review. Way back, between February and March, we had enhanced monitoring at the border because cases were low here. There was no point doing that when cases reached a high level. However, now that cases are back to a low level, this is the time to put these measures in place. However, I assure my noble friend that they will be regularly reviewed and that we do not want to keep them in place for any longer than we have to.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

I agree with comments from other noble Lords and congratulate the Minister on all the work she does for this House and for the country. What advice would she give to people who are thinking of a summer holiday abroad this year, and indeed to those who have already paid a deposit for a summer holiday? Should they go ahead and pay the balance and look forward to a lovely trip because these measures will be long gone before the start of the summer holidays?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am one of those people who would like a summer holiday and do not know whether I will have one. As I say, we will regularly review the measures that we have in place. We want people to have a summer holiday and we want to unlock the country as soon as we possibly can. There would be nothing nicer than for us all to have a nice holiday at the end of July.

[Lord Randall of Uxbridge (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that, because of the very nature of large airports, regrettably, there is no easy option of discriminating between travellers coming from different countries, not to mention the problem of passengers transiting abroad?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, my noble friend is right that we will have to take all those different factors into consideration. On logistics, we will have to engage with different countries to see what innovations are available for us to ease some of the restrictions and start to make life easier for people. However, as I say, they will be regularly reviewed.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I express sympathy with my noble friend for her valiant attempts to defend this policy. However, I can only echo the wise words of colleagues from across the House that one can see the loopholes in these regulations immediately. For example, could my noble friend confirm that anyone who flies in from abroad via Dublin will not be required to quarantine for two weeks?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

If someone arrived from Dublin in the last 14 days, they would not have to quarantine. I can see that people will want to flout some of the rules and will try to find loopholes. I can only say that these rules are put in place to keep people safe and save lives.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

Are these proposals intended to cover all airports or just the major airports? The same goes for the shipping ports. Does my noble friend remember that when we were trying to tackle illegal immigration people came through the minor airports? Secondly, are we to audit what happens, certainly at our major airports, so that a report can be done about this at a reasonable interval so that we know what has happened?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I can barely hear my noble friend, but I assure him that all the airports that are open will be subject to these monitoring arrangements and locator forms. I am so sorry that I did not get the rest of my noble friend’s question. Perhaps we can take this offline.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)]

My Lords, the time allotted for this Statement is now up. We managed to get through 22 noble Lords, so I thank them and the Minister for their brevity. The day’s Virtual Proceedings are now complete.

National Asylum Support Service

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Wednesday 6th May 2020 Lords Chamber

The Question was considered in a Virtual Proceeding via video call.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, we have worked closely with Public Health England to ensure that asylum accommodation providers follow relevant guidance and are supporting asylum seekers to social distance within the accommodation estate. All supported asylum seekers receive translated guidance and increased contact management. In hostel-based accommodation, measures taken include segregation of symptomatic service users, sequencing of mealtimes, two-metre marking to ensure social distancing and increased cleaning and hygiene regimes.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

I thank the Minister for that response, but what she has said is just not consistent in any way with the experience of charities working with these people on a daily basis. Refugee Action, Asylum Matters and the Scottish Refugee Council have described the situation in detention centres as life threatening. People are being forced to share kitchens, bathrooms, bedrooms and sometimes even beds with complete strangers. This goes against everything the Government are advising. Will the Minister agree to meet me and some of these charities so that she can see for herself exactly what the situation is on the ground?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

We are working with accommodation providers and NGOs—and in the detention estate, as the noble Baroness outlines—to ensure that they are providing services to vulnerable asylum seekers. Our providers have identified vulnerable service users and are providing them with additional support, including supplying food parcels where needed. We have also procured 4,000 single hotel rooms to assist with initial asylum seekers at this time.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Lord Speaker for calling me and the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, for asking this Question. Is it not essential that all those dealing with asylum seekers constantly remember that these people—women, children and men—have been through terrible experiences, too often involving torture, which in many instances have left them scarred? Is it not therefore essential that, in all that we do, we take as warm and supportive an attitude as possible and that we avoid a minimalist, regimented regime? Should the good Samaritan not constantly be our example?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right. Some of these people will have had the most terrible experiences. Nobody whose asylum application is complete will be asked to leave the country. As I said, we are procuring 4,000 hotel rooms. People in both our asylum estate and our detention estate are treated as any other member of the public would be, whether they are vulnerable, as the noble Lord outlined, or not.

[Lord Dholakia (LD)]

My Lords, it is not easy to provide a safe distancing policy in our overcrowded penal institutions. Once the state detains inmates, it assumes full responsibility for their safety and welfare. What effort has been made to ensure that people are released from detention centres to places of safety in the community? Will the Minister ensure that there is a moratorium on deportation until it is safe to deport people?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I explained to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, at this point in time nobody whose case has been concluded and who is due to leave will be asked to leave. That will be the position up to June and possibly beyond. The noble Lord is absolutely right: the asylum estate has as many obligations in terms of social distancing as any other place in the UK. I do not think that deportations are happening at the moment either.

[Baroness Pidding (Con)]

My Lords, my question refers to the wider issue of migrants arriving in the UK. Last month, four boats carrying up to 57 migrants were intercepted by HM Coastguard and the Border Force in the English Channel. Can my noble friend reassure us that our coastguard and Border Force officers are adequately provided with PPE when dealing with such eventualities, and that any such migrants will be given health checks and monitored for signs of Covid-19?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend is absolutely right that migrants arriving in the UK should be assessed. Certainly, if they are being put into accommodation, we want to ensure that they are not Covid-positive. If anyone moved into initial accommodation —possibly a hostel-type arrangement—is symptomatic, they are moved into hotel-type accommodation so that they can segregate and isolate. I join calls every day with our Border Force colleagues, and I understand that their PPE requirements are adequate.

[Baroness Coussins (CB)]

My Lords, what advice and information on Covid-19 is available in languages other than English, in what format and in which languages? How is it made accessible to people needing help from the National Asylum Support Service, including through the use of registered public service interpreters?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, all asylum seekers currently accommodated in asylum support properties can receive advice on asylum support and associated Covid-19 guidance and signposting through our advice, issue reporting and eligibility provider, Migrant Help. They can contact Migrant Help 24 hours a day on a freephone number if they need assistance or guidance. The AIRE service provides all the current process, policy and health guidelines, as well as immediate access to service providers for escalation. The translated public health guidance is available in 12 languages, with instructions to service users.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, the daily asylum support rate of £5.39 is insufficient to meet health and hygiene needs. Will the Minister therefore undertake to press for an emergency uplift in line with UC as a matter of urgency?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness might be pleased to know that we are currently reviewing the level of allowance, taking Covid-19 factors into consideration. However, I cannot promise uplifts to UC levels.

[Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Doocey outlined the shocking plight of refugees, who are forced to make the impossible choice between enduring dangerously unsanitary conditions here or the dangers of returning home to the source of their persecution. I was very pleased to hear the Minister talk about the 4,000 hotel rooms that have been made available; we know that hotel chains have been very generous in their offer of rooms. How many refugees are currently staying in hotel accommodation? How many are left living in other types of accommodation, and what are the plans to ensure that they have safe, sanitary conditions in which to sit out the pandemic?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

There are basically three types of accommodation: the initial, hostel-type accommodation facilities for people arriving here; hotel accommodation facilities, as the noble Baroness mentioned and as I pointed out earlier; and dispersed accommodation, which is where the significant majority of our service users reside. The latter consists of houses or homes of multiple occupancy, which obviously accommodate smaller numbers. I cannot give her the figures on hotel accommodation, but I can certainly write to or email her with these.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

The Refugee Council has persistently campaigned for better access to healthcare for asylum seekers, noting that a lack of confidence in communicating in English and confusion over the support available act as huge obstacles. Will the Minister make urgent representations to the Department of Health and Social Care to ensure that all asylum seekers have access to healthcare, and specifically testing, during the Covid-19 pandemic? Secondly, I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, asked the Minister for a meeting. Did the Minister agree to that?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I did not confirm that, but I am very happy to have a virtual meeting with the noble Baroness. On healthcare, as I said earlier, all asylum accommodation providers continue to provide translated public health guidance, which is available in 12 languages, and instructions to service users. Nobody, whether an asylum seeker or not, need worry that healthcare will not be available to them.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed. We now come to the second Oral Question.

Windrush Compensation Scheme

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Wednesday 6th May 2020 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

That the Virtual Proceedings do consider the Windrush Compensation Scheme.

The Motion was considered in a Virtual Proceeding via video call.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to be able to return and have a full debate on the Windrush compensation scheme. I know that many noble Lords, including the noble Baronesses, Lady Benjamin and Lady Hamwee, were unable to participate at Second Reading of the Windrush Compensation Scheme (Expenditure) Bill on 21 April. I hope that today’s virtual debate gives them, and other noble Lords who wish to speak on this matter, the occasion to do so.

I hope that noble Lords will have received my letter of 30 April providing an update on the Windrush compensation scheme. As we discussed this matter two weeks ago, I will keep my opening remarks to a few important points to give noble Lords a chance to participate in this time-limited debate.

I place on record again the Government’s commitment to ensuring that members of the Windrush generation are properly compensated for the losses and impacts they suffered as a result of being unable to demonstrate their lawful status. That is why, in April 2019, we launched the Windrush compensation scheme, with the first payment made within four months of its operation. I take this opportunity to remind noble Lords that there is no cap on the amount of compensation an individual can receive, nor a cap on the total amount of compensation that we will pay out.

We are doing all we can to make payments to individuals as quickly as possible, and to raise awareness of the scheme. To date, the Home Office has attended or hosted over 100 engagement and outreach events and task force surgeries throughout the UK. The Home Office is working with community leaders on a digital engagement programme, to ensure that outreach can continue despite the current lockdown. The number of claims submitted to the scheme so far is, however, much lower than expected and we recognise that there is more to do.

In March, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary announced a £500,000 community fund to enable grass-roots organisations to promote the Windrush compensation scheme and the Windrush scheme. We are committed to working with members of the community to shape the principles of the fund and intend to work with stakeholders to co-design it. The Home Secretary also announced that we will launch a national communications campaign, which will build on existing communications activities to raise awareness of the schemes and ensure that people know how to apply. We recognise that no amount of money can undo the injustice that some members of the Windrush generation have faced. We are committed to tackling those wider injustices as well.

As the Home Secretary said on publication of the Windrush Lessons Learned Review, despite the diverse and open nature of this country, too many people still feel that they may be treated differently because of who they are or where their parents came from. That is why we are launching an expanded cross-government Windrush working group, to develop programmes to improve the lives of those affected. That may be through employment support programmes, dedicated mental health support, and specialist education and training schemes. We will continue to listen to stakeholders as we take forward establishing this group, and we are committed to ensuring that the Home Office, and wider government, protects, supports and listens to every single part of the community it serves.

Members of the Windrush generation have given so much to this country, often working in the sectors at the forefront in the fight against Covid-19. I put on record again my gratitude to all those members of the Windrush generation, and their descendants, who are working tirelessly to tackle this dreadful virus. Many people in this country owe them their lives. As the noble Baroness, Lady Bull, noted at Second Reading of the Bill, it is extremely worrying that BAME individuals appear to account for a disproportionate percentage of those affected and who have sadly died during this pandemic.

On 22 April, the National Institute for Health Research and UK Research and Innovation published a highlight notice requesting research to understand emerging evidence of an association between ethnicity and Covid-19 incidence and adverse health outcomes, and to respond to concerns that health, care and other key workers who belong to BAME groups may be particularly at risk. This call is designed to complement and add to existing work already being done by academic groups and Public Health England, which is also looking at wider inequalities.

The Windrush compensation scheme is only one aspect of a broad range of matters to be discussed in relation to the Windrush generation and the challenges that they have faced. We know that there is more still to do, and we will work with every part of government to tackle inequality and ensure justice for the Windrush generation. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate for some really powerful and thoughtful contributions. Picking up on the last point from the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, the Government’s will to right the wrongs of the Windrush generation is not diminished. The scheme is just one part of a broader range of matters to be discussed in relation to the Windrush generation and the challenges they have faced and, in some cases, continue to face.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Lawrence—the first Back-Bench contributor to this debate—said, the Windrush generation were invited here to rebuild this country. Not only that, but they have contributed so much to the current battle against the coronavirus. I also refer to the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, and my noble friend Lord Bourne. I was delighted to hear that he had helped her set up Windrush Day, and I am delighted about the Windrush monument that the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, helped set up.

There is no back-tracking or back-pedalling in our will to right the wrongs of this generation. I hope that, in some of the remarks I will make now in closing, I can demonstrate some of that. I also apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, for their not having received my letter. I will recirculate it so that all noble Lords who have not seen it can have sight of it.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, asked about the design, scope and funding of the scheme. This goes to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, as well. We are absolutely committed to making sure that everyone who is due compensation can receive it. There is no cost cutting or penny pinching. We want everyone to have the compensation they are due. To that end, as I will demonstrate, we are helping them in their applications to achieve just that.

In designing the scheme, 650 responses to the call for evidence and nearly 1,500 responses to the public consultation informed the approach. We also held several public events, and Martin Forde QC, who is a very experienced barrister on all aspects of health law, was appointed by the previous Home Secretary to advise on the design of the compensation scheme.

Despite its name, the scheme is not limited to men and women who originally came to the UK from the Caribbean Commonwealth who have struggled to demonstrate their lawful status, and the eligibility criteria are clearly set out in the published scheme rules. The scheme covers a broad range of losses, and compensation is awarded according to both actual losses and tariff-based awards. To answer the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, the award levels take into account existing precedents and ombudsman-recommended payments. While some categories of awards have an upper limit, there is no overall cap on the amount an individual can receive in compensation under the scheme. There is also an uncapped discretionary category, which is for significant impact or loss not necessarily identified within the scheme in order to make it as flexible as possible.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, mentioned the impact assessment. It was published in February and outlines the Home Office estimate that the Windrush Compensation Scheme will cost between £90 million and £250 million based on 11,500 eligible claims. It is clearly a very wide range. It has reduced since the previous impact assessment due to lower than anticipated claims to date, which a number of noble Lords mentioned. There remains a high degree of uncertainty around the likely volume of compensation claims and the level of claims against the different categories. As a result, the impact assessment uses a number of different volume scenarios with a wide range of possible costs.

That is why we announced earlier this year that we are extending the scheme until 2 April 2023, so we are doing all we can to raise awareness of the scheme. As I said previously, there is a balance to be struck between having a date far enough in the future to enable people to feel confident that they have time to make their claim, but soon enough to encourage people to put in their claim. We feel that the two-year extension provides this, but there remains the option to further extend the duration, if that is required—to answer noble Lords’ questions.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, asked about the evidential requirements. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, talked about the benefit of the doubt. We have made the evidential threshold as low as possible, but we ask applicants to provide as much information and evidence as they can so that the best assessment of their claim and personal circumstances can be made. We want people to get the maximum compensation to which they are entitled and will work with claimants to support them in this, for example by contacting other government departments. To this end, a couple of individuals have already been awarded compensation for elements for which they did not originally claim, which demonstrates our commitment to working closely with claimants to ensure that they receive the compensation to which they are entitled.

However, I am sure noble Lords will agree that it is important that we are spending taxpayers’ money appropriately, and therefore we require that minimum level of information and evidence. Where awards are for actual losses, it is right that we seek to obtain an appropriate level of assurance that the losses were incurred in order to fulfil our duty properly to manage taxpayers’ money.

The aim of this approach is to fully reimburse those who can evidence their actual losses. For those who cannot meet the evidential requirements for an award based on actual loss, a tariff award may be made. Our approach is comparable with the employment tribunal’s approach to calculating loss of earnings, where an award to cover actual losses generally would be paid where the claimant is able to sufficiently evidence what those losses could have been.

There were some opposing views on claimant assistance and legal advice, from my noble friend Lord Blencathra, the noble Lord, Lord Mann, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Wilcox of Newport and Lady Bull. We have designed the compensation scheme to be as clear and simple as possible, so that people do not need legal assistance to make a claim. My noble friend Lord Blencathra outlined very eloquently the pitfalls of needing legal assistance, the lawyers scooping up all the money and the actual claimants not getting the money that they deserve. To that end, claim forms have been designed to be simple and easy to understand, and they were tested with users. Claimants need to complete only the sections of the form that are relevant to their claim, as my noble friend Lord Blencathra pointed out. However, for those who want or need support to make a claim, the Home Office has funded Citizens Advice to provide free independent advice and support, to answer the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Mann, and my noble friend Lord Bourne. This advice is available to individuals in the UK and overseas. A tender is currently open to select an organisation to provide free independent advice and support to claimants for the duration of the scheme. To provide that continuity of service, the contract with Citizens Advice will be extended until the tender process is complete.

Some have suggested that we should allow applicants to recover legal costs incurred in applying to the scheme, but as my noble friend Lord Blencathra said, to do so might serve to encourage organisations to take advantage of people who are potentially very vulnerable, and charge them for unnecessary support to complete a claim. We have already heard of such terrible stories of no-win no-fee approaches. All we want is for the compensation to go to those who are entitled to it.

We aim to award compensation as quickly as possible. However, the time it takes to process each claim will depend on the complexity of individual cases, and it is right that we deal with cases properly. Where we can resolve part of a claim more quickly than other parts, we are making interim payments to ensure that claimants receive their awards as quickly as possible. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Warwick, pointed out that up to the end of December, only 36 payments had been made, totalling £62,198. I share the strength of feeling about these numbers, but many of these payments are interim payments, meaning that claimants may receive further awards later. Many more payments have been made since then. Further statistics will be published later this month.

As a comparator, the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority, mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Mann, suggests that claims under that scheme take 12 to 18 months to conclude. We may also be able to consider a payment under the support in urgent and exceptional circumstances policy, to provide support to members of the Windrush generation who have an urgent and exceptional need.

The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, asked about the cap. Again, I assure noble Lords that we will pay whatever compensation is due. The noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of Cradley, talked about negative outcomes. We are continually monitoring the operation of this scheme, making amendments based on feedback, as changes to the rules earlier in the year, such as changing the date to 2023, demonstrated.

The department continues to work extensively with communities and stakeholders to raise awareness of both the Windrush compensation scheme and the Windrush scheme. To date, the Home Office has attended or hosted more than 100 engagement and outreach events and surgeries throughout the UK. We have used social media in a very targeted way to reach those who may be eligible to receive compensation and to encourage them to come to our events. Some 20,000 information cards have been distributed to affected groups and communications toolkits have been sent to almost 200 stakeholders.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of Cradley, suggested moving the operation of the scheme out of the Home Office. This was also suggested at Second Reading. I can understand the concerns of those who think that the department that caused the problem in the first place should not be dealing with this. However, moving the operation of the scheme out the Home Office would risk significant delay and I do not think that anyone wants that to happen.

The first stage in deciding a claim for compensation is to confirm an individual’s identity and eligibility; this is linked to the immigration status of the individual. It would be difficult to decouple this from the Home Office without increasing the time taken to process an individual’s claim and issue payments.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London talked about external scrutiny, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin. We have put in place a number of measures to ensure that the scheme has an appropriate level of external scrutiny. To answer the question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, we have an independent review process for those dissatisfied with their compensation offer. This is conducted by the HMRC Adjudicator—a non-departmental public body. The noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Rosser, both asked whether a compensation award is a full and final offer or whether it can be revisited. The award is always an offer. The claimant can accept it, at which point it becomes final, or they can request a review, as I have outlined. I hope that that helps answer the noble Lords’ questions.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, also asked about help with housing and jobs in addition to monetary payment. Where people are in immediate need, we have put in place measures to give them the support needed, such as a dedicated vulnerable persons team, which has helped more than 1,400 people, including with access to benefits and housing. Financial compensation gives claimants the freedom to choose how they wish to proceed. On 19 March, the Home Secretary announced an expanded cross-government Windrush working group, which will take a strategic view of a range of issues relating to Windrush and wider race inequalities. It will aim to develop initiatives to improve the lives of those affected by bringing together government and community stakeholders to co-design and deliver the response. That might be through employment support programmes, dedicated mental health support and specialist education and training schemes.

The noble Lord asked whether we paid for the flights of people who have been repatriated. I can tell him that 35 payments have been made under the support in urgent and exceptional circumstances policy. The total value of the payments approved is £46,795. In addition to these payments, three exceptional payments for flights to return to the UK were made before the official launch of the policy on 17 December. In addition to the three payments made for flights before the launch of the urgent and exceptional scheme, a further four payments had been made under the scheme to return individuals to the UK.

In addition, as interim independent adviser to the scheme, Martin Forde continues to provide external scrutiny and challenge on its operation and implementation. We continue to listen and respond to feedback received from stakeholders, including through the Windrush stakeholder advisory group which was launched last September, to ensure that the scheme is operating effectively and delivering for those whom it is designed to compensate. The changes announced by the Government earlier this year demonstrate our commitment to this and build on changes made to the rules last October.

I want to place on record again that no information provided by individuals as part of a claim for compensation will be used for immigration enforcement action.

The noble Lord, Lord Hastings of Scarisbrick, asked about reputational damage and where that would come in under the compensation scheme. It would be considered as part of the “Impact on Life” category, as would grief, which the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, asked about.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of Cradley, asked about posthumous awards that might go to somebody’s estate. There absolutely is scope for that, and I think that posthumous awards have been made.

I think that it was the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, who asked about an annual conference. I am very happy to take that idea away. In her report, Wendy Williams recommends reconciliation events, so we will certainly consider that suggestion.

To go back to the compensation scheme, all the elements mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, would qualify for compensation.

My noble friend Lord Randall talked about pensions. This is not my expert area, so, if he is amenable, I will write to him.

I want to come to the lessons learned review, and I ask noble Lords to indulge me if I go a little over my time. The noble Baroness, Lady Lawrence, asked whether we will agree to all the recommendations in the review. Wendy Williams was really clear that we should resist the temptation to respond rapidly and suggested that we instead undertake a period of reflection, to engage staff at all levels to identify what should change. The Home Secretary has therefore committed to publishing the department’s response to the report within six months of publication. To address the point from the noble Lords, Lord Hastings and Lord Rosser, that would be on 19 September, if we are talking about six months from 19 March.

Noble Lords talked about various points in history when the Home Office failed the Windrush generation. Wendy Williams was clear that the injustices spanned 70 years. I would like to put on record at this point that we all need to look to ourselves and to the part that successive Governments played in how the Windrush generation was let down. Rather than the blame game, we all have our part to play.

The Windrush lessons learned implementation team has been set up to lead the response to the report, working with teams across the department and externally to take the steps needed to create a department that we can all be proud of.

The noble Lord, Lord Hastings, the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, and my noble friend Lord Sheikh talked about trust and culture. That is at the heart of what the Home Secretary will reflect upon.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of Cradley, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London talked about education and empathy. Wendy Williams made a number of points about training and education, which we are looking at very carefully. Outreach events that the department is currently running allow civil servants the opportunity to hear the stories of those who have been impacted. I can confirm that people working in the Home Office have asked me personally not to forget about the Windrush report. Yes, the Home Office has been institutionally thoughtless, but there are a lot of people working there who do not want us to forget about the Wendy Williams report, or our reflection on it and response to it.

We have already announced that we will launch an expanded cross-government Windrush working group to develop programmes to improve the lives of those affected. We will continue to listen to stakeholders as we take forward establishing this group and are committed to ensuring that the Home Office and the wider Government protect, support and listen to every single part of the community they serve.

Finally, I will talk about the EU settlement scheme and EU citizens. The EU settlement scheme has been designed to make it easy for EU citizens and their family members who want to stay in the UK to get the UK immigration status that they need. It is designed precisely to avoid another Windrush. We think that the constitutive system that we have introduced is the best approach, because it provides EU citizens and their family members with clarity about what they need to apply for, and when, and the secure evidence of their status that they need. We now have over 3.4 million applications, of which over 3.1 million have been concluded. People have until 30 June next year to apply.

I have gone over time, as usual. I am very grateful to noble Lords for the contributions that they have made. I thank everyone who has taken part in the debate.

Motion agreed.

Policing: Covid-19 Guidance and Legislation

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Tuesday 5th May 2020 Lords Chamber

The Question was considered in a Virtual Proceeding via video call.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the UK is facing its biggest crisis since the Second World War. We have taken unprecedented steps to curtail people’s freedom in order to protect the NHS and to save lives. We have worked with the police to issue guidance on the new powers and to ensure that they are used proportionately and consistently. I am confident that the police have applied these measures properly and have risen to this challenge.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her Answer to my Question. I am sure that she is aware that the guidance has been extremely confusing: it has confused the public, the police and prosecutors. The Crown Prosecution Service has now said that it will review all the prosecutions, including those of the people who pleaded guilty. Does the Minister agree that there is a mess somewhere to clear up?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It is right that the CPS reviews what are new powers to protect the NHS and to save lives. However, it is also crucial that we learn from any mistakes. Therefore, the CPS is reviewing cases charged under both the Coronavirus Act and public health regulations to make sure that the powers are being applied correctly. As I say, these are exceptional powers and the CPS is continually reviewing all the charges brought.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, we are completely behind the police, the Minister and her department in trying to strike the right balance in this very difficult area. Does she agree that access to public parks is a real issue at the moment? For many people, particularly those who do not have a garden, being able to get into public parks is vital. That includes being able to sit in them, properly distanced, and move around them freely. That has not been happening in many parts, because the police have been moving people on. Might the Minister be able to look at this issue, which is really important to millions of people across the country?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally agree with the noble Lord that public parks are absolutely vital to people, not just so that they can get exercise but for their mental well-being. I did a test run in my local park in London this morning, and people were observing social distancing. The issue arises when people linger; it has concerned the police that they might be passing on infection. It is really important that we follow the regulations to save lives and protect the NHS.

[Lord Beith (LD)]

My Lords, it is perfectly reasonable that the Government should urge people to go beyond the letter of the law in this crisis, but is it not vital not to confuse guidance with the law itself? For example, there is no law that precludes going out in a car to take exercise in a more suitable place or limits exercise in England to once a day. Does the Minister accept that, from Ministers to police constables, people exercising authority must distinguish clearly between what the law requires and what is simply guidance? Otherwise, habits that would be damaging to our freedom and liberty will persist beyond this dreadful epidemic.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally agree with the noble Lord. He has pointed out very clearly the distinction between the guidance and the regulations. We need to be mindful of that.

[Baroness Rawlings (Con)]

My Lords, taking into account the inconsistencies between Covid-19 and related guidance, it is reported that both SARS and Covid-19 probably came from bats. They seem to store many more bat-borne viruses. What is HMG’s policy, therefore, on bats continuing to be protected in this country? Why are they protected? In the circumstances, should the amended 1981 law be revisited?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The reason for that protection was the shortage of bats in Europe. We have been working closely with the Bat Conservation Trust, Defra and Natural England’s wildlife teams and international partners on this subject. The BCT has provided advice for bat carers, which we helped to write and which takes a precautionary approach.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

Does the Minister agree that the Director of Public Prosecutions’ very unusual decision to review every single Covid-related prosecution initiated by the police indicates clear overuse of the powers and that new National Police Chiefs’ Council guidance is needed to replace the overcomplex guidance issued by the College of Policing, which many police officers do not even have time to read?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The College of Policing guidance is there not to replace the government guidance but to assist the police as they go about their daily work. As I said to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, these are new powers and the CPS is therefore reviewing cases charged under both the Coronavirus Act and the public health regulations to make sure that the powers are being applied correctly. Unlawful charges are being withdrawn by prosecutors in court and the CPS is asking for any wrongful convictions to be overturned—but we are in a new world and are having to learn.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

For the Opposition, I say that the police have our wholehearted support for the work that they do, particularly in the very difficult current circumstances. As a result of rushed public health regulations and associated guidelines, there have been inevitable instances of differences in interpretation of the Covid-19 guidelines. Were the guidelines cleared or approved by the Home Office? Were they cleared or approved by elected and accountable police and crime commissioners? What are the powers of elected and accountable police and crime commissioners to determine how the wide-ranging non-statutory guidelines should be applied by their police force to the constituents who elected them?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

There are many questions in the noble Lord’s question. I would say that, in the enforcement of the new emergency regulations, there were definitely some initial inconsistencies among police forces. As I said in response to other noble Lords, that is because we are in an unprecedented situation and have all been operating at a fast pace to keep the public safe. We are now confident that the police are applying the new measures properly and proportionately. They are using the four-step escalation principles of engage, explain, encourage and then enforce. On the point about engagement with the guidance, the Government are engaging with the various stakeholders when drawing it up.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

In response to my noble friend Lord Beith, the Minister said that we should be mindful of the need not to confuse law and guidance. However, is it not a fact that government ministerial Statements and publications have elided and thus confused the two, which has often put the police in an invidious position? I see that while the Coronavirus Outbreak FAQs were revised on 1 May, they still seem to interchange between what you cannot do and what you should not do. Will the Government now clearly distinguish between the two to make life easier for the public and, indeed, for the police?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness’s noble friend Lord Beith helpfully distinguished between the two. The regulations are drafted in a way that draws a distinction between them and the guidance. The regulations are the law and the law is what applies. They set out the legal obligations and the guidance sets out best practice to assist in compliance with the law. While examples of inconsistencies have been reported in the press, given that 86% of the public are complying with the law and 70% support what the police are doing, I think that we are going in the right direction.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer to my interests as set out in the register. Policing by consent is the foundation of policing in this country. If interactions with the public are heavy-handed or disproportionate when dealing with Covid-19 issues, there is a real danger that support for policing will be jeopardised. The police are now themselves saying that this will become more difficult as the lockdown messages become more nuanced. Does the Minister agree that local police commanders should consult at least weekly, if not more frequently, with local MPs and council leaders about which issues of social distancing and the like are arising locally and what the appropriate response should be in that locality?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I hope the noble Lord will be comforted by the fact that every single day I join the Home Secretary on operational calls to not only the Met police but other law enforcement agencies. We also speak each day to a regional lead. I hope this will reassure him that we are doing just that and that we remain engaged with local law enforcement as we go through a very difficult process.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, I regret that the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. If we can keep the questions and answers a little shorter, we will be able to get more questioners in.

Domestic Violence

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Tuesday 5th May 2020 Lords Chamber

The Question was considered in a Virtual Proceeding via video call.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are monitoring and responding to domestic abuse issues arising during this period, and £28 million of the £750 million announced by the Treasury for charities will go to domestic abuse charities to help victims to continue to access their services. The Home Office has separately provided £2 million to support helpline and website provision, and the recently launched #YouAreNotAlone campaign is helping to raise awareness of this crime while directing victims to support services.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

We all look forward to the Domestic Abuse Bill becoming law, but that will not be for several months. Victims of domestic abuse need additional support and help immediately. Will the Minister agree to go back, speak to the Home Secretary and explore the possibility of a series of public information films on TV channels in the UK setting out that domestic abuse is a crime, that victims are not alone, that help and support is at the end of the phone and that by texting or clicking on a website we will come to their aid?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord will know the web facilities that are available, and the Home Office has separately provided £2 million to support helpline and website provision. On his broader question about a mainstream public broadcasting campaign, I most certainly will go back to the Home Secretary, but at this time I would like to avoid—I know the noble Lord will agree with me—having perpetrators and their victims sitting side by side while such information comes on the television. It might create additional tensions within the home. However, I will take the idea back and discuss the matter with the Home Secretary.

[Baroness Newlove (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the Government’s funding for domestic abuse charities. Any funding, especially in lockdown, is very welcome. Every Monday I join meetings with domestic abuse front-liners and survivors. While I appreciate that we are giving £28 million to domestic abuse charities, my concern is that the information I have received from Paladin is that it has seen a huge explosion—an up to 50% rise—in stalking. Can the Minister ensure that some funding goes to stalking charities, such as Paladin and the Suzy Lamplugh Trust, which also help coercive control and domestic abuse victims?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I take my noble friend’s point about stalking. Whenever money is given out to charities, it is within a competitive process, as it were—a fair process—but I will certainly take that back. I am very surprised to hear what my noble friend said about stalking, but I do not deny what she is saying. Right at the beginning of this process, I spoke with Nicole Jacobs—I presume that is who my noble friend is engaging with every Monday—and my noble friend can be sure that I will take that back.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, I, too, welcome the innovations that the Government are undertaking, but I have particular concerns about victims of abuse who may have mental health problems or long-term dementia who are unable to seek help quickly. What are the Government’s plans, as we begin to lift isolation and quarantine, to ensure that these members of the population are properly assessed fairly rapidly?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness hits on a point that will be at the heart of what happens not only during the coronavirus pandemic period but as we come out of it. We have put in £5 million of additional funding for mental health charities to support adults and children who are struggling with their mental well-being at this time. NHS England and NHS Improvement have instructed all NHS mental health trusts to establish mental health crisis lines that are clearly accessible from the trusts’ websites.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

I call the noble Baroness, Lady Burt of Solihull.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Crawley]

My Lords, I commend the Minister for the work she is undertaking during this difficult time. What government funding is now getting to the front line for abused children, following a recent safeguarding live survey of front-line services showing that 42% of these services felt they were not able to effectively support child victims of abuse during this time of lockdown?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It is a crucial point. We have made £1.6 million available immediately to the NSPCC to expand and promote its helpline for adults. Expanding the helpline will mean that many more adults know how and where to raise concerns or seek advice and support regarding the safety and well-being of any children they are worried about. We also have the NCA’s online safety at home campaign, which provides vital support and advice to children.

[Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)]

Do the Government not recognise that migrant women, because they have no recourse to public funds, are in great danger of being turned away from refuges? Will the Government please consider suspending the no recourse to public funds rule for all migrants during the crisis, and abolishing it altogether for these most vulnerable women and their children?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

One of the things the Government have done is to announce £3.2 billion of funding for local authorities to support the most vulnerable victims in our society. Of course, the noble Baroness is referring to people who have not yet got a legal right to be here, and I totally see the point that she is making.

[The Lord Bishop of Worcester]

My Lords, we know that domestic abuse affects every community, including religious communities. Can the Minister assure the House that the Government are partnering with faith groups to raise awareness of available support during the pandemic?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

We are reaching out to everybody. I cannot say for certain about faith groups, but I can certainly get him some information about that. One of the things that was first and foremost on my mind and that of other Ministers was the danger to women, mostly, and children who are locked up with their perpetrator for what has now been nearly seven weeks.

[Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con)]

My Lords, as most cases of domestic violence are known to the neighbours, should we not encourage them to inform the police about repeated episodes in order to reduce this terrible crime?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally understand that point. This has been on our radar, and we have engaged with police and communities. Neighbours can set up silent codewords with potential victims, which is one way that people can communicate with each other in these very stifling times during lockdown. That will certainly help the police, who are engaging with high-risk victims and perpetrators during this time.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, my question has already been asked by my noble friend Lord Kennedy of Southwark—it is the subject of a piece I wrote in the Times a couple of weeks ago. May I dispute the Minister’s answer? She said that she does not think it would be very helpful if people were to sit side by side. I think that is exactly what we want. We want victims and abusers to be sitting side by side when the message comes over that what is happening is wrong, and when giving information and advice.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I did not denounce the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy; I pointed out some of the unintended consequences of stirring up tensions when a household might already be in a very tense situation. I by no means dismiss the noble Lord’s point.

[The Lord Speaker]

I regret that the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.

Domestic Abuse

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Wednesday 29th April 2020 Lords Chamber

The Question was considered in a Virtual Proceeding via video call.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the Home Office has provided an additional £2 million in funding to bolster specialist domestic abuse helplines and websites. This will ensure that all victims can access vital support safely and securely; it is in addition to the £750 million announced by the Treasury for charities. Alongside this, the Home Office has published specific guidance on GOV.UK and launched a new awareness campaign to signpost support services for victims.

[Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)]

The shocking increase in domestic violence, with a doubling of deaths and a 50% increase in calls to helplines, shows that there is more than one kind of epidemic happening in this country today. More than 60% of the women were turned away from refuges before the coronavirus epidemic. However, some good can come of this. This week, the Home Affairs Committee recommended a cross-government approach to tackling this scourge on our nation. For example, we could loosen the rules and speed up the availability of housing benefit to help refuges move families into social and other accommodation, thus unblocking the places in refuges. Will the Minister use her considerable powers of persuasion to knock departmental heads together and make tackling domestic abuse a central pillar of our Covid-19 response? Will she meet me, Women’s Aid and other charities virtually to ensure that we leave this crisis in a better position to protect victims than before we knew that the coronavirus existed?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think the noble Baroness will agree that we have always had a cross-government approach on domestic violence. Certainly, some of the round tables that we had before coronavirus, in the lead-up to the Domestic Abuse Bill, were very consensual and collaborative. It is certainly something that I will continue to promote. We have been meeting and engaging virtually with charities right from the start of the outbreak of this pandemic.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

We are also concerned about children trapped in dangerous domestic situations. What measures are the Government taking to protect those children? More widely, can the Minister say what they are doing to protect children at risk of sexual and other abuse?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I recognise the noble Lord’s point about children—they are at the brunt of abuse, or are witnesses to abuse. As I meant to say to the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, I am on a call every day with the Home Secretary and her operational partners, who are very alive to what might be going on behind closed doors. In the last four weeks, the NCA has developed and disseminated 1,060 child sexual abuse packages for police forces to investigate. Those figures are horrific, but it is testament to the good work of our police forces.

[Baroness Sanderson of Welton (Con)]

We have heard about the surge in calls to the domestic abuse helpline but we have not seen a corresponding rise in calls to the police. What are the Government doing to understand this discrepancy so that we can make sure that victims also feel able to contact the police should they need to do so?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right. There is a mismatch between inquiries to the helpline and what police are reporting. But even among police forces there is quite a disparity; the Met are seeing far higher incidences than are other police forces. Again, on those operational calls, police are really vigilant on spotting the signs of domestic abuse. It is a priority activity for the Home Office at this time.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)]

There is clearly a lack of capacity in refuges for women fleeing abuse. Will the Government take a serious look at what the French Government announced in March—that they would fund hotel rooms, sitting empty, for victims of domestic violence, and consider opening pop-up counselling centres in supermarkets for easy access to advise and support victims of domestic violence? Will the Minister take this back and give a response to these proposals?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I found it very difficult to hear the question of the noble Baroness, but I think it was split into two parts, the first being on lack of capacity in refuges. I am not saying that this is a positive outcome but refuges are reporting vacancies, which is both a good and a bad thing. She said something about how in France people can report in through supermarkets—

[Baroness Hussein-Ece]

There are two things: the French Government paying for hotel rooms so that they become available, and the pop-up counselling centres in supermarkets.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Again, I did not hear the noble Baroness very well, but I heard her better than the first time—

[The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

If the Minister would promise to write on that question, we will move on, to get everybody in.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I declare that I am chairing an inquiry into alcohol harms. When will the data on alcohol-fuelled domestic violence during lockdown be made available and collated with sales, given that over half of intimate partner and almost all family homicides in 2014-15 involved alcohol and that the latest research shows that alcohol-fuelled violence is disproportionately clustered in the lowest socioeconomic groups—the people living in particularly difficult situations?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

One positive thing to come out of the current pandemic, if there is anything positive to report at all, is the decline in drink-related crimes after hours. However, the noble Baroness is absolutely right that data on the harms of alcohol behind closed doors is yet to be released. I think we will know it retrospectively, and the House will of course be interested in this and all other aspects of domestic violence as time goes on. We will report back to the House on the outcomes of that. So one of the positive things is the lack of violence on our streets, but the downside of that is what is happening inside the home.

[The Lord Bishop of Gloucester]

My Lords, continuing the theme of children, given that lockdown has removed children’s usual contacts with schools, community groups and services, what are the Government doing to increase public awareness and provide advice and support for children at this time?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The Government are doing several things. In terms of adults, the #YouAreNotAlone campaign that the Home Secretary released is certainly up and running; I do not know whether the right reverend Prelate has seen it. Adults can access that and there have been a number of online support services for children, so that they have a line into help and support. Going back to the point of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, there is also support for children who are victims of sexual abuse online during lockdown.

[The Senior Deputy Speaker]

Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top? No? We will move on to the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra.

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for all the excellent work she has been doing to tackle this long-standing and difficult problem, which has been greatly exacerbated by the current quarantine situation. Just how prepared were the Government and police in identifying and dealing with domestic abuse and violence during this pandemic, and what measures did they put in place in preparation for it?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It was at the forefront of our minds that, as we entered lockdown, some people would be affected not necessarily by Covid-19 but by violence within the home. It is very gratifying to hear that noble Lords are so concerned about it. One of the first things I did was to get in touch with the domestic abuse commissioner, Nicole Jacobs; everything that she requested from the sector has now been put in place, including the #YouAreNotAlone campaign and other funding packages. There is also IT support, which is incredibly important; if you cannot get out of the house, you need to get that support somehow.

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

The current pressure-cooker situation does not have a retirement age—quite the opposite. Older people can be particularly vulnerable, not just to alcohol-fuelled abuse but particularly to financial abuse. The specialist charity which supports older people is also taking referrals from large organisations, carers and care homes. Will the Government ensure that both awareness and financial support extend to what is a less well-known problem?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The Government, particularly the Home Office, are getting more and more evidence of financial abuse, particularly among older people. Economic abuse is now seen as a form of domestic abuse, so the noble Baroness is absolutely right. There is not only economic abuse of the elderly; as was raised with me in a Question last week, older people are more subject to scams.

[The Senior Deputy Speaker]

I have added a few minutes as a result of the connectivity and audio issues. We will go back to the noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong of Hill Top, if she is still here. No?

The time allowed for this Question has elapsed. The Virtual Proceedings will now adjourn until 1 pm for a Statement.