Town and Country Planning (Napier Barracks) Special Development Order 2021
Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts(2 years ago)
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Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, for putting down this regret Motion. He introduced it very fully and, though I doubt he will, if he were to move it to a vote, we would support him. I have a number of questions, some of which have already been put by noble Lords who have spoken.
There was a major outbreak of Covid-19 at the barracks at the height of the pandemic. At that time, 28 people were sharing a dormitory with access to only two showers and two lavatories, and no ability to self-isolate. What are the current arrangements for Covid? What testing is available and are there now facilities for people to self-isolate?
Napier barracks is a symbol of the failures of the asylum system and this order shows that what was intended to be a short-term solution is now having to be relied on in the longer term, in spite of the poor reports we have heard about. Those concerns were raised by not only the Opposition but Conservative MPs and, crucially, the High Court and the Independent Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration.
What has been done on overcrowding? We have heard that the numbers have gone down to about 12 to 14 in a barrack room. What has been done about the run-down buildings, the fire risks and the “filthy” conditions which the High Court referred to? People with serious medical conditions were housed in the dormitories at Napier, including those with diabetes, cancer and tuberculosis. What is the policy now on holding vulnerable asylum seekers in this type of accommodation? Is it still the case that Napier barracks is classed as contingency accommodation, rather than an accommodation centre, despite now being used over the longer term? What impact does this designation have on the Government’s duties in the operation of Napier barracks?
Turning to mental health concerns, major safeguarding concerns were raised with Napier barracks. A survey conducted by the inspectorate found that one in three people had felt suicidal during their time there.
The Government have included plans in the Nationality and Borders Bill to move to a model of large accommodation centres for asylum seekers. These plans will essentially replicate Napier barracks and this style of accommodation on a wider scale. After the track record we have seen, it is obvious why there is concern about this, as we have heard from other noble Lords. What other similar barracks-like accommodation is being used or considered for use to house asylum seekers? This question was also put by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick. How will safeguarding be approached in these accommodation centres, so that none of the same failures is repeated?
Members of both Houses and the Home Affairs Select Committee were repeatedly told that all public health guidance was being followed and that the site was safe and fit for purpose. Independent inspections showed that neither of these things was the case. What are the oversight arrangements now for Napier and what will be the oversight arrangements for accommodation centres that are to be set up?
I end by saying that I am particularly intrigued about the answer to the question raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft. I had not realised that there were adolescent boys in neighbouring hotels in that area. I thought her question was an important one, and I look forward to the Minister’s answer.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who spoke in this debate and particularly the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, who brought it forward. I just thought I would clarify that I do not think the right honourable Diane Abbott visited Napier under the previous Home Secretary—I am being told that it was not Napier.
A number of noble Lords have referred to Napier as a detention centre but it is not a detention centre—I will go into further detail on that. It is being used as contingency asylum accommodation, which enables the Home Office to continue to meet its statutory obligation to accommodate and support destitute asylum seekers. As noble Lords will be aware, the accommodation at Napier was set up in response to the enormous pressures that were placed on our asylum accommodation by the Covid pandemic. The pressure to accommodate individuals continues to grow, and it has been exacerbated by the rise in the number of dangerous and illegal small boat crossings of the channel.
The use of Napier barracks was against that backdrop. In September 2020, the Home Office approached the MoD regarding the use of Napier barracks. The Covid pandemic, coupled with pre-existing pressures on the asylum system, meant that this significant number of people had to be accommodated at considerable speed. The use of Napier barracks was intended to be of a temporary nature, and it was expected that the MoD would retake possession of the site in September of last year. The Home Office therefore originally took occupation of it for an initial six-month period under permitted development rights for Crown land in response to the pandemic. In December 2020, those rights were extended for a further six months.
My noble friend Lady Wheatcroft asked about the use of hotels. I will go on to give further details about the barracks, but on the use of hotels, if we did not put people in them, those children would be without somewhere to stay. Such were the pressures on the system at the time, but it is by no means an ideal situation.
Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)
It is not merely a question of them being housed in hotels. It is the manner in which they are kept in hotels, and the fact that during the hottest days, when people were on the beach, which they could see from their windows, they appeared to be kept indoors with guards outside.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I probably should not have brought this aspect up. As I am going on to say, these centres are not detention centres; people are not detained in them. Therefore, it may be something to do with the pandemic, but if I am wrong in my assessment of why people might be inside, I will clarify that. I am assuming that they may have been self-isolating, when the restrictions were quite severe on absolutely everybody in this country.
Going back to the continued use of Napier, following the outcome of NB and others’ litigation in June 2021, the Home Office progressed work to ensure that the department could continue to use the barracks and avoid any potential breach of planning control given under permitted development rights. These were due to expire in September of last year. Given the urgency to ensure that there was additional capacity in the system and the statutory obligation on the Home Office to provide support to destitute asylum seekers, the only viable option was to proceed with a special development order. I should add that the tenancy agreement with the MoD confirms that the site will be handed back in March 2025—in three years’ time—to support the full decommissioning of the site.
On the conditions of the site, I note comments by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, about Napier. Maybe I just listened to what I want to hear, but the right reverend Prelate seemed to confirm that things had significantly improved; although they were not absolutely perfect, things had improved significantly at the site. As I have said, the site is used to provide temporary accommodation for around 300 otherwise destitute adult men for up to 90 days. The average length of stay is about 70 days. Service users staying at Napier are free to come and go as they please—they are not detained at Napier. The accommodation at Napier meets our statutory obligations. It is safe, warm, dry and it provides a choice of good hot meals, as well as proper laundry and cleaning facilities.
Turning to the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, a significant amount of work has been carried out to make improvements to the conditions at Napier barracks—hence, possibly, the right reverend Prelate’s comments about it. There is a prescribing nurse; dental care is provided on site, and there is access to local GP services. There is also a prayer room and a multifaith room. As the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham confirmed, sports and recreational activities have been re-introduced. Additional furniture, table-tennis tables and a library have been installed, and CCTV and night-time courtesy patrols have also been put in place. The Home Office has significantly improved the management and oversight at the site, with an emphasis on identifying issues early and ensuring that the accommodation is safe and well maintained. The frequency of inspections and visits has also increased.
Finally, all residents of Napier have been offered Covid-19 vaccinations. There is Covid-related signage in multiple languages, and residents have been provided with personal cleaning kits. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, who asked about isolation if Covid is detected. Given that the general regulations have changed for the wider population, I imagine that it is in line with that, but I will provide more information to him if I can.
We have engaged with community stakeholders, including charities and NGOs, in relation to the site. There are regular meetings at which matters relating to the site’s operation are discussed and issues can be raised. These meetings are attended by Home Office officials, alongside representatives of the NHS, the UK Health Security Agency, the police, Folkstone and Hythe District Council and Kent County Council. In addition, several NGOs sit on the Home Office strategic engagement group and the National Asylum Stakeholder Forum, where they can raise concerns and receive updates on the site.
We have recently welcomed the Independent Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration to Napier to conduct a follow-up inspection at the site. We look forward to the publication of his report, which may identify further ways in which we can improve the service provided there. We remain fully and firmly committed to delivering an asylum system that is fair and effective and works in the interests of both the people of this country and those in need of refuge and sanctuary.
Lord Paddick (LD)
My Lords, I thank all noble Baronesses who have spoken in this debate, and the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede. I thank them for raising other important issues and for their support for this Motion. I also thank the Minister for her response.
Whatever the pressure on the asylum system, and whatever the problem, Napier barracks is clearly not the answer. The Minister kept talking about destitute asylum seekers. Most asylum seekers are destitute—for example, those fleeing the war in Ukraine. She appeared to choose to ignore the findings of the report from the APPG on Immigration Detention, published today, which I summarised. Both the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, and I asked about further centres similar to Napier— whether they were being planned, developed or brought into use. These plans appear to be surrounded in secrecy. The lack of an answer from the noble Baroness today unfortunately adds to that. I think she is going to intervene on me now.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I am, because there is no conspiracy here. I completely neglected to answer both noble Lords on that point. Obviously, we keep our asylum accommodation estate under constant review and I will update the House with any developments if new centres are considered.
Lord Paddick (LD)
I am not sure whether that was an undertaking by the noble Baroness to write to us with any details of plans in the pipeline. She is nodding, so that is helpful.
It is regrettable that Napier continues to be used to house asylum seekers but bearing in mind that we are at the end of a very long Session, I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Nationality and Borders Bill
Baroness Williams of Trafford ExcerptsMonday 4th April 2022
(2 years ago)
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Baroness Williams of Trafford
That this House do not insist on its Amendment 1, and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 1A and 1B in lieu.
“Provision for Chagos Islanders to acquire British Nationality
In Part 2 of the British Nationality Act 1981 (British overseas territories citizenship), after section 17G (as inserted by section 2), insert—
“17H Acquisition by registration: descendants of those born in British Indian Ocean Territory
(1) A person is entitled to be registered as a British overseas territories citizen on an application made under this section if—
(a) they are a direct descendant of a person (“P”) who was a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by virtue of P’s birth in the British Indian Ocean Territory or, prior to 8 November 1965, in those islands designated as the British Indian Ocean Territory on that date, and
(b) they have never been a British overseas territories citizen or a British Dependent Territories citizen.
(2) An application under this section must be made—
(a) in the case of a person aged 18 years or over on the commencement date, before the end of the period of five years beginning with the commencement date;
(b) in the case of a person aged under 18 on the commencement date, or a person who is born before the end of the period of five years beginning with the commencement date, before they reach the age of 23 years.
(3) In subsection (2), “the commencement date” means the date on which this section comes into force.””
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will also speak to Motions B, L, M, T and U.
This is a happy time of the day. I want to return to Lords Amendment 1, which provides for the Chagossians to acquire British citizenship and British Overseas Territories citizenship. We heard some very powerful speeches advocating on behalf of the Chagossians, both in your Lordships’ House and in the other place. I was deeply moved on meeting one of the Chagossians with the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford. The Government accept that the unique position of the Chagossians means that we can accept a unique solution to provide them and their descendants with a pathway to British nationality. For technical reasons we have been unable to accept the amendment agreed by your Lordships’ House. However, we have tabled, and the other place has accepted, two technically correct amendments in lieu, Amendments 1A and 1B. I hope that these amendments will now also be accepted by your Lordships’ House.
Amendment 4 relates to the deprivation of citizenship. On Report, your Lordships’ House did two things in respect of the clause in question. The first was to agree to amendments to it that were tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich. I thank him for bringing his considerable experience and legal expertise to bear on this very important issue, and for tabling amendments that met with the favour of the House. However, your Lordships also deleted the substantive clause, as amended by the noble Lord, from the Bill.
The Government have now accepted the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, and re-tabled the substantive clause, as amended by him, in the other place, which agreed to it. I strongly invite your Lordships’ House to support this course of action by not insisting on Amendment 4, which would delete the substantive clause, and by agreeing to Amendments 4A to 4F, which will restore to the Bill the clause as amended by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson.
The noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, has moved that subsections (5) to (7) be omitted from this clause, which, of course, in the context makes no sense. These subsections relate to existing “without notice” deprivation orders and ensure that they continue to be valid. Omitting these subsections would cast doubt on the validity of these orders and create an unacceptable risk to our security. I therefore invite the noble Baroness to withdraw this amendment.
Amendments 13 to 19 relate to the offence of illegal arrival in the UK, a key element of the Bill. We want to do everything we can to deter people from making dangerous and, sadly, as we have seen, often fatal journeys. That is why we want to change the law to provide prosecutors with additional flexibility when someone has “arrived in” but not technically “entered” the UK. Your Lordships’ amendments would remove this flexibility. The other place has therefore disagreed to these amendments for their reasons 13A to 19A. There is a need to seek prosecutions when there are aggravating circumstances, and where prosecutors agree that this is in the public interest. However, the list cannot be exhaustive, as we need to be able to respond to unforeseen circumstances. I will set out in more detail what the Government mean when we say that we are seeking prosecutions only in the most egregious cases for this offence.
We will take firm action against migrants who put themselves or others, including rescuers, in danger by their actions—for example, where migrants have been seen dangling children over the side of a boat and threatening to drop them into the channel, or dousing themselves in fuel to prevent them being picked up by French search and rescue services because they did not want to be taken back to France. This would apply to instances such as those which occurred in 2020 with the stowaways on the “Nave Andromeda”, which led to the crew locking themselves in the ship’s citadel in accordance with the ship’s safety manual and making a mayday call.
Additionally, we will be targeting for prosecution migrants who cause severe disruption to services such as shipping routes, or closure of the Channel Tunnel. This happened in 2015 when a group of migrants forced their way into the tunnel despite the attempts of French officials and police to prevent them doing so. The migrants’ actions meant that the power supply to the tunnel had to be shut down and rail traffic suspended.
We will also focus on those who have arrived in the UK without permission in cases where they are criminals who have previously been deported from the UK, persons subject to exclusion decisions or persons who have been repeatedly removed as failed asylum seekers. On this basis, your Lordships’ House should not insist on these amendments.
The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, has tabled Amendment 13B in lieu of Amendment 13, which would make it an offence for persons to knowingly arrive in the UK in breach of a deportation order. Although I welcome the recognition that we need to be able to prosecute criminals who seek to evade immigration controls and return to the UK, we cannot accept this amendment, as it is just too narrow. It would not, for example, allow for the prosecution of someone attempting to arrive in the UK who has previously been excluded from the UK on national security grounds. As I have just set out, there are a number of other aggravating behaviours for which we think prosecutions would be appropriate. I therefore hope that the noble Lord will not press his amendment.
Amendment 20 would reinsert the requirement to prove that a person is acting “for gain” if they are being prosecuted for facilitating the entry of an asylum seeker into the UK. I emphasise that this Government do not prevent and have no intention of preventing humanitarian rescues from taking place, and we have built additional safeguards to this effect into the Bill. But the problem here is that proving that someone acted “for gain” is practically very difficult. It means that prosecutors are limited in the action that they can take against people smugglers. The other place has therefore disagreed with this amendment for their Reason 20A. On that basis, I put it to noble Lords that we should not accept this amendment.
The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, has tabled Amendment 20B, in which he proposes that, instead of reinserting the requirement that a person is acting “for gain”, it should be an offence to act “without reasonable excuse”. We have already set out in detail in the Bill how this offence will work, including statutory defences that would effectively provide reasonable excuses, so we do not think that this amendment is necessary.
Amendment 40 concerns the operation of the electronic travel authorisation—ETA—scheme when
“the individual is travelling to Northern Ireland on a local journey from the Republic of Ireland.”
The other place disagreed with this amendment for its Reason 40A. The amendment could result in an unacceptable gap in UK border security, which would allow persons of interest or risk who would otherwise be refused an ETA to enter the UK legally. It would undermine the very purpose of the ETA scheme, which is to prevent the travel of those who pose a threat to the UK.
Although I understand the sensitivities engaged here, I reassure noble Lords that the Government stress our continuing commitment to the Belfast agreement, as well as the common travel area. An important part of this is our absolute commitment not to have any checks at the Ireland-Northern Ireland border, and British and Irish citizens will not be required to obtain an ETA. Neither will those who already have an immigration status in the UK—for example, those with a frontier worker permit. However, as now, all individuals—except British and Irish citizens—arriving in the UK, including those crossing the land border into Northern Ireland, need to continue to enter, in line with the UK’s immigration framework. This is a well-established principle of the operation of the CTA, and it applies when travelling in all directions. We are simply extending the principle to individuals requiring an ETA.
For those who require an ETA, the process of applying for one will be quick and light-touch. It will be valid for multiple trips over an extended period, so that this is not disruptive to lives or livelihoods, minimising the burden on those making frequent trips, including across the Ireland-Northern Ireland border, while protecting the common travel area from abuse as far as possible.
On the possible impacts on tourism, I assure the House that the Government are committed to working with a wide range of stakeholders, including Tourism Ireland and Tourism Northern Ireland. This will ensure that the ETA requirement is communicated effectively through targeted messaging and a variety of channels. It will also mitigate any risk of increased barriers to cross-border tourism on the island of Ireland. I therefore ask that this House does not insist on this amendment.
The noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, has proposed a further, well-considered amendment, which would exempt residents of the Republic of Ireland. The relationship between the UK and Ireland is an important and unique one, and we are deeply committed to the strongest and closest possible partnership between us. We remain committed to ongoing communication with the Irish Government and other interested stakeholders to navigate their concerns on this matter. I therefore ask that your Lordships’ House does not insist on this amendment.
Finally, Amendment 54 prohibits the use of new maritime powers contained in the part of the schedule to which it applies from being used
“in a manner or in circumstances that could endanger life at sea.”
Noble Lords will know that the Government’s priority is to save and preserve life at sea. Our position has not changed, and as such, as the Government have made clear before, we do not think that we need to put these commitments into the Bill. The other place has disagreed with this amendment for its Reason 54A. I conclude by asking that noble Lords do not insist on this amendment, and I beg to move.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)
My Lords, on Motion A, I am very pleased to be able to accept Amendments 1A and 1B in lieu of my original amendment. Together with assurances given on the record in the Commons, they will open up entitlement to British citizenship, which will be subject to neither a fee nor a good character test. They therefore meet the objectives of the original amendment. I thank the Minister for whatever part she may have played in helping achieve this change of heart, following the meetings she had with some of us and Rosy Leveque of BIOT Citizens.
I have two questions. When is it anticipated that applications can begin, and can the Minister confirm that it is still the Government’s intention to use some of the largely unspent £40 million Chagos support fund to help Chagossians settle here, and to help those already here who have welfare needs?
As well as the Government, I thank noble Lords from all Benches who gave such strong support to the amendment, and in particular those on the Government Benches, as I am sure their passionate support was key to encouraging the Government to think again. I thank the APPG on the Chagos Islands for helping to build that support. I also pay tribute to Henry Smith MP, who has long championed this cause in the Commons, and to the late and much-missed Lord Avebury, who first raised the issue in your Lordships’ House over a decade ago. His work to remove this and other citizenship injustices has been energetically continued by the BOT Citizenship campaign, especially David Varney and Trent L Miller.
Last but not least, I pay tribute to the Chagossians themselves, who have helped to spearhead the campaign, in particular Rosy Leveque and Chagossian Voices. The joy felt as a result of the government concession is summed up well in an email sent to me and Henry Smith from a Chagossian on Mauritius, who is longing to be reunited with his family in the UK. I will quote briefly a few lines:
“I am writing to you simply to say that words are not enough to express how thankful and grateful I am. I can’t stop crying with joy and happiness, and trust me when I say that many Chagossians in Mauritius and Seychelles are also overjoyed and overwhelmed by this result. Many of us have been keeping our grandparents’ birth certificates in a folder waiting for this day to come.”
The original injustice that deprived the Chagossians of their homeland and that perpetuates their exile remains and will rightly continue to be contested. However, I believe that all those who have contributed to the ending of the citizenship injustice done to the descendants of those for whom the Chagos Islands were home can feel pride today. I am sure that we all look forward to welcoming to the UK as British citizens the Chagossians who have been the victims of this injustice.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate.
In moving Motion A, I neglected to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, who also attended the meeting about the Chagossians. I thank her for her kind words and acknowledge the role she has played. It sounds like there is agreement to the proposals we have put forward in Motion A. They were definitely well received by the other place and the Chagossian community. The route will be open in due course. I will keep the noble Baroness and the House updated. The Home Office will need some time to put in place the processes that will allow applicants, wherever they live, to make an application for BOTC and British citizenship. This will include creating access to historical records, which will help applicants demonstrate that they are direct descendants of someone born in the BIOT. I will update the House as soon as we have some clear idea of timescales.
I also confirm that, as the noble Baroness said, there will not be application fees. In the meantime, we will continue to work to deliver the £40 million support package she referred to, and we are working with the FCDO to consider whether we can use these funds to support Chagossians seeking to relocate to the UK, which seems a sensible use of the funds. I commend the measures to your Lordships’ House.
I turn to Motion B. I hope noble Lords will agree, as we have already done on Report, with the amended deprivation of citizenship clause. Thanks here are due to the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich. We are simply not talking about measures which could affect 6 million people; we are talking about situations where a naturalised person has acquired citizenship fraudulently, or where this is conducive to the public good. I repeat, deprivation on conducive grounds is used sparingly and against those who pose a serious threat to the UK or whose conduct involves high harm. Appeal rights kick in when a person receives the notice telling them of the decision to deprive them of their citizenship. I also point out that the courts have found that only the deprivation order made without notice in the case of D4 was invalid. They did not find that all such orders are invalid. With respect, I therefore ask the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, to withdraw her amendment.
Turning to criminal offences and Motions L and M, I repeat that we want to ensure that prosecutors have maximum flexibility to deal with people arriving in but not entering the UK and also to tackle people smuggling. I have set out the sort of circumstances in which we expect these offences to be prosecuted. Amendments proposed by the noble Lords, Lord Coaker and Lord Paddick, would undermine our efforts to tackle egregious forms of criminality, and I invite the noble Lords not to press them.
Moving on to electronic travel authorisations, in Motion T, I was interested to note that the arguments being made against them are actually the reasons for the Irish to introduce one. Once the EU’s comes into force next year, Ireland will stand out as one of the few countries in Europe without an ETA-style pass, among all the other countries that have them. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, for explaining to me—an Irishwoman, with a father from Northern Ireland—the context of his amendment. We accept the need for further dialogue with interlocutors, including the Irish Government, Tourism Ireland and Tourism Northern Ireland. I totally accept that point.
I would also like to tell the House that the secondary legislation that will underpin the scheme, which will include details of fees, will be brought forward once the Bill receivers Royal Assent. I can provide assurances that the fees will be competitive with those of comparative systems run by other countries.
In response to concerns about tourism, I observe that people travel for a whole host of reasons, and while the cost or requirement to obtain an ETA in advance of travel may be a consideration, the experiences of other countries with similar schemes show that it is very unlikely to deter a genuine visitor. Once granted, an ETA will be valid for multiple trips to the UK. The cost is likely to be very small for travellers, relative to the cost of travel and the benefits of visiting the UK, and therefore it is unlikely to deter the majority of visitors. Moreover, many of the UK’s international partners have taken a similar approach to border security—the United States of America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand—meaning it is a very familiar concept for travellers. I invite the noble Lord not to press his amendment.
That leaves us only with Motion U. The preservation of life at sea remains our priority and we do not think we need to put this in the Bill. We therefore hope that noble Lords will not insist on this amendment; it is not necessary.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
That this House do not insist on its Amendment 4, and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 4A to 4F in lieu.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
That this House do not insist on its Amendment 5, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 5A.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, I bring noble Lords’ attention to Lords Amendment 5, on compliance of Part 2 of the Bill with the refugee convention. The other place disagrees with this amendment for its Reason 5A. The Government have made it explicitly clear that everything we do is compliant with our obligations under international law, including our obligations under the refugee convention. Consequently, we do not think it is necessary to set that out in the Bill. I therefore respectfully ask noble Lords not to insist on the amendment.
The noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, has proposed a new amendment which seeks to do much the same as the previous amendment: to clarify that the provisions in Part 2 are compliant with our obligations under the refugee convention and international law. For the reasons I have given, I invite the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.
Amendment 6 would remove from the Bill the substantive clause relating to differentiation. The other place has disagreed with this for its Reason 6A. The differentiation of those classed as refugees is a fundamental part of the Bill, and as such the Government cannot accept the amendment agreed by your Lordships’ House. It is right that we take all steps to discourage people from risking their lives at sea, and this clause and the criteria it sets do just that. I respectfully ask noble Lords not to insist on the amendment.
For the same reason, we cannot accept the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, which seeks to remove the list of ways in which group 2 refugees may be differentiated from group 1 refugees, under the presumption that this approach will not uphold our international obligations. The Government have been extremely clear on this point throughout the passage of the Bill. I repeat that all the provisions in the Bill are in compliance with all our international legal obligations, including those under the 1951 refugee convention and the 1967 Protocol relating to the Status of Refugees. With this in mind, I ask the noble Lord not to press his amendment.
Lords Amendment 7 would change our approach to allowing people who are claiming asylum to work by reducing the period in which claimants may not work from 12 months to six months. It would also remove the condition restricting jobs for those who are allowed to work to those on the shortage occupation list. We think that this would allow people to bypass the proper process of applying for visas and paying relevant fees to work in the UK. It could also encourage channel crossings. We recognise the importance of ensuring that claims are settled as quickly as possible, and I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Stroud for the conversations that we have had. We want to see claims settled within six months so that people can get on with rebuilding their lives, and that includes working. However, the Government cannot accept this amendment, which the other place disagrees with for its Reason 7A. As such, I ask that it not be insisted on.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, might think the House does not want to hear from him, but it certainly does not want to hear from me either. It never likes what I have to say.
There have been a few disparaging comments about our approach to Ukraine. I have just looked on Twitter, and this is the first comment from President Zelensky:
“The United Kingdom is our powerful ally.”
It must be acknowledged that we have done much to assist Ukraine over the years. We have now issued over 20,000 visas and done some other fundamental things for our friends in Ukraine. We have been training 22,000 troops for years; we have given them 2,000 NLAWs, or, as President Zelensky calls them, “in-loves”—apparently, on their launch, people in Ukraine shout “God save the Queen”. We have also provided them with the Starstreak missile. We have been terribly generous and supportive to Ukraine and will go on being so.
My noble friend Lord Horam said there had been no pre-legislative scrutiny; it may seem a long time ago but, I guess by way of a White Paper, the New Plan for Immigration was published—I know we do not do Green Papers these days; that stopped years ago.
Motions C and D deal with the refugee convention and our policy of differentiation. We have been clear throughout the development of this policy that it fully complies with all our international obligations, including the refugee convention. I will not go over my noble friend Lord Wolfson’s comments, but I know he wrote to noble Lords setting out our legal position on this. However, I should clarify that a person in group 2 would, to gain that status, necessarily already be recognised as a refugee in the UK and would not subsequently have, or be eligible to have, their claim processed overseas. We intend that prosecutions follow only in egregious cases. I therefore ask noble Lords not to insist on their amendments and the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, and the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, not to press theirs.
It has long been our position that when someone who is claiming asylum has been waiting for a decision on their claim for more than 12 months, through no fault of their own, they should be able to take up one of the jobs on the shortage occupation list. Motion E deals with this issue and, although I have a great deal of respect for my noble friend Lady Stroud and we have spoken at some length over the last few days, we cannot agree to reduce this period to six months, for the reasons I have set out previously. There is not much more I can add to my previous comments other than to point out academic evidence suggesting that economic factors are in play in secondary movements. For all those reasons, I invite my noble friend not to press her amendment.
Motions F and G deal with inadmissibility and overseas asylum processing respectively. It is vital that we have strong measures in this Bill to deter people from making dangerous journeys and to encourage them to seek asylum in the first safe country that they reach. We cannot agree to measures that would undermine these measures, either by restricting our ability to work on a case-by-case basis on returns or making the job of our negotiators more difficult. I therefore ask the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham not to press their amendments.
On the question the right reverend Prelate asked me about what advanced discussions are taking place and the point that the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, asked about Rwanda, all I can say at this point is that the Government are talking to a range of partners. I am sure that Parliament will be fully informed when any of those discussions are concluded.
The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, has the respect not just of me but of the whole House. Turning to Motion H, I know how strongly he feels on the subject behind his amendment relating to family reunion, but there are risks that the proposed new clause creates a very broad duty that was not intended.
Moving on to Motion J, I also understand the strength of feeling on having a target number for refugee resettlement, noting in particular the amendment tabled by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham. I also reflect in this context on Motion K and the amendment concerning genocide tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool. But I can only say again that we already have generous family reunion offers, that we have numerous safe and legal routes to the UK, and that a person fleeing genocide is already likely to qualify for protection, as I said, under either the refugee convention or the ECHR.
The UK is firmly committed to protecting ethnic and religious minorities in Iraq. We raise this regularly with the Government of Iraq and the Kurdistan Regional Government, and we continue to monitor the situation of the Yazidis and other minority groups in Iraq. But I will take back again those comments on religious bias, because it is not the first time that the noble Lord, Lord Alton, has raised them with me.
I do not think that the amendments tabled to Motions H, J and K are necessary, so I invite the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, not to press their amendments.
Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords and noble and learned Lords who spoke in such a vital debate. The House will forgive me for not waxing lyrical by way of summary—out of respect for noble Lords, self-discipline and the need to get on and vote. I just say that I heard not a single constitutionally or legally coherent argument against the vital overarching protection for the refugee convention in Motion C1. With that, I ask noble Lords to agree Motion C1.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
That this House do not insist on its Amendment 6, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 6A.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
That this House do not insist on its Amendment 7, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 7A.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
That this House do not insist on its Amendment 8, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 8A.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
Moved by
That this House do not insist on its Amendments 9, 52 and 53, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reasons 9A, 52A and 53A.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I have already spoken to Motion G. I beg to move.
Motion G1 (as an amendment to Motion G)
The Lord Bishop of Durham
Moved by
At end insert “and do propose Amendments 53B, 53C and 53D in lieu—
Baroness Williams of Trafford
That this House do not insist on its Amendment 10, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 10A.
Lord Stewart of Dirleton
That this House do not insist on its Amendment 12, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 12A.
Lord Stewart of Dirleton
That this House do not insist on its Amendments 13 to 19, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reasons 13A to 19A.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
That this House do not insist on its Amendment 20, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 20A.
Lord Stewart of Dirleton
Moved by
That this House do not insist on its Amendment 40, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 40A.
Lord Stewart of Dirleton
Moved by
That this House do not insist on its Amendment 54, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 54A.
Live Facial Recognition: Police Guidance
Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts(2 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Clement-Jones
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the new College of Policing guidance on live facial recognition.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, facial recognition is an important public safety tool that helps the police to identify and eliminate suspects more quickly and accurately. The Government welcome the College of Policing’s national guidance, which responds to a recommendation in the Bridges v South Wales Police judgment.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, despite committing to a lawful, ethical approach, the guidance gives carte blanche to the use of live and retrospective facial recognition, potentially allowing innocent victims and witnesses to be swept on to police watch-lists. This is without any legislation or parliamentary or other oversight, such as that recently recommended by the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, chaired by my noble friend Lady Hamwee. Are we not now sleep-walking into a surveillance society, and is it not now time for a moratorium on this technology, pending a review?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I disagree with everything that the noble Lord has said. I think every police force in the country uses retrospective facial recognition. Watch-lists are deleted upon use at a deployment, so there is no issue regarding ongoing data protection. Importantly, just as CCTV and retrospective recognition are still used to detect criminals, missing persons and vulnerable people, so is the application of LFR.
Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)
My Lords, I refer the House to my membership of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, whose pertinent report of last week has been referred to. Given the intrusive nature and racially discriminatory potential of this technology, why does the Minister not agree that legislation would be preferable to the police writing their own guidance, which some of us find, in this case, to be permissive and wholly unsatisfactory?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
There already is a legal framework. In terms of bias, I quote from the US National Institute of Standards and Technology. It found that NEC, which is the technology that the police use, provided
“algorithms for which false positive differentials are undetectable”
and that the algorithm
“is on many measures, the most accurate we have evaluated”.
It is for the police, within the legal framework, to decide how and in what situation to deploy this technology.
The Lord Bishop of Oxford
My Lords, I declare an interest as a former board member of the Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation. I wonder if the Minister would comment on the vital importance of establishing public trust and confidence in the deployment of FRT and indeed any new technology, especially in such a sensitive area as policing. A range of concerns have been raised about rapid deployment, governance and bias by the CDEI, the European Union and the makers of popular documentaries. Yet, in the face of this, the Met and South Wales Police have both announced a ramping up of the use of FRT. Does the Minister agree that it is time to slow this down and for urgent parliamentary scrutiny and better governance of the police’s use of facial recognition technology?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I do not think we need to slow it down—quite the contrary. It is important that this is done in a clear way: that the police explain why, who and where they are using their deployments. That must be explained by the police. I think this has great potential for good, and so I would not agree with the right reverend Prelate.
Lord Sandhurst (Con)
My Lords, I am sorry to press the Minister, but in the light of the forthcoming regulations that are going to be made in respect of non-crime hate speech, is not facial recognition likewise so important that it should not be left to mere guidance? Is it not time now for the College of Policing to be put on a statutory basis, and going forward, for facial recognition, like non-crime hate speech, to be made subject to regulations approved under the affirmative procedure?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I disagree with my noble friend, because it is not left to guidance. Where guidance comes in is in the deployment. There is a legal basis on which to deploy, using powers including common-law powers. It was on the back of the court judgment that it was recommended that its use be clarified: the when and where of the use of LFR.
Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)
My Lords, I generally support the extension of facial recognition technology, although I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, that it needs serious consideration. Technology is moving forward so fast that I think it is hard for all of us keep track of it. The three principles that the Minister might agree should underpin that are transparency of use, accountability about its use and that people should have a remedy. If things are done wrong, they should be able to check to see what they can do about it.
But the benefits are pretty outstanding. I know that, post the riots of 2011, we had to deploy 800 officers to look at 250,000 hours of rioters on CCTV footage. This allowed us to arrest 5,500 people over 18 months, but it took us 800 people. There has to be a smarter way of doing that. That would have been a retrospective use. Therefore, does the Minister agree that careful improvements in the future are wise, and that we should not stop, as the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, suggested, the use of it altogether?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I totally agree with the noble Lord. The legal framework in which it should operate is, A, for a policing purpose, B, where it is necessary and, C, where it is proportionate and fair. I think that pretty much accords with what the noble Lord said.
The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
The noble Lord, Lord Strasburger, will now contribute remotely.
Lord Strasburger (LD) [V]
My Lords, this technology is used by the Chinese Government to micro-manage the lives of its citizens, so its use here needs strict rules and effective oversight. In the absence of legislation, the police have tried to regulate themselves by writing their own rules, but these are so vague that almost anything goes: targeting people who “may cause harm”, whatever that means. When will the Government do their job and legislate to control the risks of this technology?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, I have outlined the conditions in which it should be used. To compare its use with how China looks at its people is really taking a leap forward. As I have just pointed out, I think that its use when fair, proportionate and for a policing purpose is absolutely reasonable.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
My Lords, the new guidance acknowledges long-running concerns around algorithmic bias. Forces are rightly required to identify and mitigate against bias but doing so requires expertise and, as a result, additional costs. I have two questions: first, what steps are the Government taking to ensure that forces across the country have access to the resources they need to uphold these new elements of the public sector equality duty? Secondly, which independent body or individual has oversight powers to ensure that facial recognition powers are used appropriately by police forces and not inappropriately or for inappropriate purposes?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
The Bridges case tested this; it went to the courts. As the noble Lord says, it is absolutely important that the police comply with the public sector equality duty to maintain that public confidence. There have been various tests for evidence of bias; SWP and the Met have found no evidence of bias in their algorithms.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
My Lords, we should remember that the reassurances from the Minister fall after we had a very lively debate in this House about the College of Policing’s guidance on non-crime hate incidents. Due to the campaigns of groups like Fair Cop, Free Speech Union and Big Brother Watch, the powers have now been rolled back; they were being abused and that was recognised. Is the Minister in any way worried about enabling guidance that gives the police huge powers to survey and criminalise non-crime harms of any sort, hate or otherwise? Secondly, the number of live facial recognition watchlists has gone up from 42 in 2017 to 5,000 now. Is that overreach, success or abuse? Who decides, when on those watchlists will be victims or witnesses?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, I reassure the noble Baroness that the people who can be on watchlists include those wanted by the courts or subject to bail conditions or other restrictions that would be breached if they were at that location, as well as other suspects; and they may indeed include vulnerable people. If my relative was missing and I could avail of this technology, I would be very grateful for its use.
Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill
Baroness Williams of Trafford ExcerptsThursday 31st March 2022
(2 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 View all Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 143-I Marshalled list for Consideration of Commons Amendments - (30 Mar 2022)
Baroness Williams of Trafford
That this House do not insist on its Amendment 58 and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 58C, 58D and 58E in lieu.
“PACE etc powers for food crime officers
(1) In the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, after section 114B insert—
“114C Power to apply Act to food crime officers
(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations apply any provision of this Act which relates to investigations of offences conducted by police officers to investigations of offences conducted by food crime officers.
(2) The regulations may apply provisions of this Act with any modifications specified in the regulations.
(3) In this section “food crime officer” means an officer of the Food Standards Agency who—
(a) is acting for the purposes of the performance by the Food Standards Agency of its functions under the Food Standards Act 1999 or any other enactment (including functions relating to the investigation of offences), and
(b) is authorised (whether generally or specifically) by the Secretary of State for the purposes of this section.
(4) The investigations for the purposes of which provisions of this Act may be applied by regulations under this section include investigations of offences committed, or suspected of having been committed, before the coming into force of the regulations or of this section.
(5) Regulations under this section are to be made by statutory instrument.
(6) Regulations under this section may make—
(a) different provision for different purposes;
(b) provision which applies generally or for particular purposes;
(c) incidental, supplementary, consequential, transitional or transitory provision or savings.
(7) A statutory instrument containing regulations under this section is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.
(8) In this section “enactment” includes—
(a) an enactment comprised in subordinate legislation within the meaning of the Interpretation Act 1978, and
(b) an enactment comprised in, or in an instrument made under, a Measure or Act of Senedd Cymru.”
(2) In the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, after section 39 insert—
“39A Power to apply sections 36 and 37 in relation to food crime officers
(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations provide for any provision of section 36 or 37 that applies in relation to a constable to apply in relation to a food crime officer.
(2) Regulations under subsection (1) may apply any provision of section 36 or 37 with any modifications specified in the regulations.
(3) Regulations under subsection (1) may not apply a provision of section 36 or 37 in relation to a failure or refusal which occurred before the regulations come into force.
(4) Regulations under subsection (1) are to be made by statutory instrument.
(5) Regulations under subsection (1) may make—
(a) different provision for different purposes;
(b) provision which applies generally or for particular purposes;
(c) incidental, supplementary, consequential, transitional or transitory provision or savings.
(6) A statutory instrument containing regulations under subsection (1) is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.
(7) In this section “food crime officer” has the meaning given by section 114C of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (PACE powers for food crime officers).”
(3) In the Food Standards Act 1999, after section 25 insert—
“25A Obstruction of food crime officers
(1) A person commits an offence if the person—
(a) intentionally obstructs a food crime officer who is acting in the exercise of functions conferred on the officer by virtue of section 114C of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (PACE powers for food crime officers),
(b) fails without reasonable excuse to comply with any requirement made of the person by such a food crime officer who is so acting, or
(c) in purported compliance with such a requirement provides information which the person knows to be false or misleading in any material particular or recklessly provides information which is false or misleading in any material particular.
(2) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 months or to a fine, or to both.
(3) In this section “food crime officer” has the meaning given by section 114C of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (PACE powers for food crime officers).”
(4) In the Police Reform Act 2002—
(a) in section 10 (general functions of the Director General)—
(i) in subsection (1), at the end of paragraph (ga) insert “; and (gb) to carry out such corresponding functions in relation to officers of the Food Standards Agency acting in the exercise of functions conferred on them by virtue of—
(i) section 114C of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (PACE powers for food crime officers), or
(ii) section 39A of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 (powers for food crime officers: inferences from silence).”, and
(ii) in subsection (3), after paragraph (bd) insert—
“(be) any regulations under section 26E of this Act (food crime officers);”, and
(b) after section 26D insert—
“26E Food crime officers
(1) The Secretary of State may make regulations conferring functions on the Director General in relation to officers of the Food Standards Agency (the “Agency”) acting in the exercise of functions conferred on them by virtue of—
(a) section 114C of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (PACE powers for food crime officers), or
(b) section 39A of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 (powers for food crime officers: inferences from silence).
(2) Regulations under this section may, in particular—
(a) apply (with or without modifications), or make provision similar to, any provision of or made under this Part;
(b) make provision for payment by the Agency to, or in respect of, the Office or in respect of the Director General.
(3) The Director General and the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration may jointly investigate a matter in relation to which—
(a) the Director General has functions by virtue of this section, and
(b) the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration has functions by virtue of the Parliamentary Commissioner Act 1967.
(4) An officer of the Agency may disclose information to the Director General or to a person acting on the Director General’s behalf, for the purposes of the exercise by the Director General or by any person acting on the Director General’s behalf, of an Agency complaints function.
(5) The Director General and the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration may disclose information to each other for the purposes of the exercise of a function—
(a) by virtue of this section, or
(b) under the Parliamentary Commissioner Act 1967.
(6) Regulations under this section may, in particular, make—
(a) further provision about the disclosure of information under subsection (4) or (5);
(b) provision about the further disclosure of information that has been so disclosed.
(7) A disclosure of information authorised by this section does not breach—
(a) any obligation of confidence owed by the person making the disclosure, or
(b) any other restriction on the disclosure of information (however imposed).
(8) But this section does not authorise a disclosure of information that—
(a) would contravene the data protection legislation (but in determining whether a disclosure would do so, the power conferred by this section is to be taken into account), or
(b) is prohibited by any of Parts 1 to 7 or Chapter 1 of Part 9 of the Investigatory Powers Act 2016.
(9) In this section—
“Agency complaints function” means a function in relation to the exercise of functions by officers of the Agency;
“data protection legislation” has the same meaning as in the Data Protection Act 2018 (see section 3 of that Act).”
(5) The amendments made by subsections (1) to (3) and any regulations made under provision inserted by subsections (1) and (2) bind the Crown.
(6) No contravention by the Crown of section 25A of the Food Standards Act 1999 (as inserted by subsection (3)) makes the Crown criminally liable; but the High Court may declare unlawful any act or omission of the Crown which constitutes such a contravention.
(7) That section applies to persons in the public service of the Crown as it applies to other persons.
(8) If the Secretary of State certifies that it appears requisite or expedient in the interests of national security that any powers of entry conferred by regulations made under provision inserted by subsection (1) should not be exercisable in relation to any Crown premises specified in the certificate, those powers shall not be exercisable in relation to those premises.
(9) In this section “Crown premises” means premises held or used by or on behalf of the Crown.
(10) Nothing in this section affects Her Majesty in her private capacity; and this subsection is to be interpreted as if section 38(3) of the Crown Proceedings Act 1947 (references to Her Majesty in her private capacity) were contained in this Act.”
“(da) section (PACE etc powers for food crime officers);”
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will also speak to Motions B and D.
Amendments 58C to 58E respond to the tenacious and clever campaign by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, to confer appropriate police powers on the Food Standards Agency to enable it more effectively to tackle food crime. We have always been clear that we support the case, in principle, for conferring additional powers on the FSA, but we need to do this in a holistic way. The original Lords Amendment 58 did not deliver all the powers the FSA was seeking, nor did it provide for independent oversight of what are intrusive and coercive powers of the state. Amendments 58C to 58E remedy these omissions.
The amendments do four things. First, they will enable regulations to be made conferring relevant PACE powers on the FSA. Secondly, they will enable regulations to apply provisions in Sections 36 and 37 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 which relate to drawing inferences from a suspect’s failure to account for certain matters, such as their presence at a particular place. Thirdly, they create an offence of obstructing a food crime officer in the execution of functions conferred on them by regulations made under new Section 114C of PACE. Finally, they amend the Police Reform Act 2002 to bring food crime officers within the remit of the Independent Office for Police Conduct. Before exercising the various regulation-making powers provided for in these amendments, the Food Standards Agency will consult interested parties to ensure that we get the detail right and confer on food crime officers only those powers which are necessary and appropriate to their role. I trust these amendments will be welcomed by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, and indeed the whole House.
I turn now to Amendment 72C, on which I will be as brief as possible because we have rightly dedicated much discussion to this topic and, as I have said before, the Government are pursuing a very broad programme dedicated to tackling violence against women and girls. Your Lordships will have seen that the Commons has spoken and, in doing so, has rejected the Lords amendment by a substantial margin and endorsed an amendment in lieu which firmly commits the Government to responding to the Law Commission’s recommendations related to adding sex or gender to hate crime laws. As I said in our last debate, the Government will also consult on whether to pursue a new public sexual harassment offence before the Summer Recess. Notwithstanding that, this House has signalled that it would like to see quicker progress, particularly on the matter of police recording. If noble Lords permit me, I will address this issue in further debates and in doing so, I hope I can provide reassurance that the Government are listening.
I want to reaffirm that the Government are pursuing the recording of hostility to sex, and that we take the commitment I made to do so during the debates on the Domestic Abuse Bill very seriously. I do intend to see that this work is accelerated, and that remains the case. I also expressed my regret in the last debate that we have not secured the pace of change that was rightly expected on this issue. The recording of sex hostility has proven—with the benefit of hindsight—more complex than parallel experiences we have undertaken with the recording of statutory hate crimes. For the sake of transparency, it is important that the Government are honest when things have taken longer than we might have expected or hoped, even if, as in this case, they are still moving in the right direction.
It would also be beneficial for the House if I outlined some of the challenges we have encountered, so as to assure noble Lords that the issues we are experiencing are technical but perfectly capable of resolution. The Government’s starting point is that we want to get the recording processes right and to do so in a way that delivers useful data. One of the principal quandaries we have been working through to this end is the blurred boundaries between this new recording category and other categories of hate crime. This manifests in contested—or, at the very least, widely confused—interpretations of sex and gender. I am sure that all noble Lords will be mindful of that. As such, this is an issue that crops up frequently in the very debates we have been having in this place. I hope that noble Lords can understand the importance attached to precision and clarity here. We do benefit from a statutory definition of sex, but, given the unique complexities, there is a risk that forces will have their own individual sense of what these terms mean. Therefore, we need to ensure consistency across the board.
We also need to acknowledge that the police already record hostility on the grounds of transgender identity, which means that there are issues to resolve as to the boundaries between different recording categories that do not apply to quite the same degree when recording most hate crimes. In many cases, the difference will be clear, but not always. The closest equivalent puzzle is regarding race and religion, where recording the actual characteristics of the victim—or, indeed, an interpretation of the often confused utterances of the offender—will produce very different answers as to the prevalence of certain hostility in society.
The matters are, of course, not insurmountable. We have resolved them in the past: where there is a conflict between two principles, such as whether a victim’s race or religion was targeted, we have successfully developed a working rule. In the case of race and religion, we tend to stress not what the actual characteristic of the victim is, but what the best available judgment suggests regarding the intent behind what the offender said or did. This will not always prove satisfactory to the victim, but it aims to paint a clearer, if imperfect, picture of the true levels of hostility that might exist in communities. When embarking on these new exercises, there is always a danger that we become bound up in striving for a degree of spurious rigour on data, whereas a common-sense judgment might point to the likely animus at the heart of the offender’s own, often muddled, beliefs. None the less, in this case we did wish briefly to pause and resolve these questions before embarking on a process which might result in less useful insights.
I hope that this provides a broad illustration of some of the difficulties we have encountered, and that it helps to illustrate the Government’s position on why legislation is immaterial to fixing them, particularly as we already have the legal powers we need. Whatever remaining questions we need to answer, I am confident that we will have resolved them in the next few months or, hopefully, sooner. I will certainly ensure that there is a renewed impetus in doing so.
Viscount Stansgate (Lab)
My Lords, I know the House is anxious to move to a vote, although I am here to support my noble friend’s Amendment C1. He used great humour to serious effect, but when I think of how this debate will be viewed when we look back on it, I think the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, will be at the very heart of what we are discussing. Yes, there is the incident case of the legislation, but it is the nature of the relationship between this House and the other place that is at the heart of what we are here to do. I much admired the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and others who have raised this.
If the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and I were playing ping-pong, there is, as far as I know, no constitutional limit to the number of times we can bat backwards and forwards, as the noble Baroness just mentioned. The noble Lord says we should call a halt after two attempts, but I think there is a different way of looking at it and we should send this back again. There is time. I do agree with the comments made by people with great experience of both Houses that the amount of time the House of Commons devotes seriously to legislation is—I will not say a disgrace—very little. In many cases, many Members I know who go through the Division Lobbies to overturn amendments we have made in this House could not tell you what they are about. They really could not. So, there are good reasons for taking this question on noise seriously and asking the House of Commons to think yet again.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I thought I would start by talking about time on debates. This House does spend time on debate. We have gone on until 2 am, 3 am and, once, 4 am in debate. We do not curtail it.
The Government have given way on this Bill in a number of ways. I am very glad my noble friend Lord Cashman—he is my noble friend—is in the Chamber because one thing we have worked on over far too many years is the disregards for historical offences by LGBT people that are no longer offences today. I am incredibly proud that we have secured that through this Bill. To go back to the point from my noble friend Lord Deben about the Secretary of State saying which things they want to get through, I am not going to try to thwart the will of the Home Secretary; I approached her personally on this matter. She had no hesitation in giving way and helping us promote that through this House. I am very glad it has gone through already. We have short memories sometimes; we forget what has gone through on Report. Just this morning we conceded on the PACE powers, and what we are down to is the sticking point on two matters—powers that are vested in the police, not the Home Secretary.
I am pleased that Amendments 58C to 58E have found favour with the noble Lords, Lord Rooker and Lord Coaker, and I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Russell, for his very constructive approach to the issue of the police recording offences aggravated by sex or gender. I do think, through this Bill—not legislatively but through a practical solution—that we have a good way forward. We can all agree the outcome we want to see, which is the collection of data that is usable, useful and consistent. I have outlined that it is not straightforward. I also acknowledge the detailed questions he sent to us yesterday afternoon. I am afraid that, in the short time available, we have not had the chance to consider them, but we will do so and provide him with answers as soon as possible and keep the House updated.
The two outstanding public order measures have been subject to extensive debate and scrutiny in this House and the other place for close to 13 months. The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked whether removing “serious unease” risks watering down the threshold, as the qualifier “serious” will no longer apply to alarm or distress triggers. That is not the case: the adjective “serious” can be applied only to the unease trigger, not to the alarm or distress triggers. He seeks to caricature these provisions with his point about double-glazing. The House found him very amusing, but it is not a double-glazing test. The Bill provides that, in determining whether the level of noise may have a significant impact on persons in the vicinity of a protest, the police must have regard to, among other things, the likely intensity of the impact.
The factsheet we have published to aid understanding of these provisions is not guidance for the police. A noisy protest outside a building with double glazing will have less of an impact on the occupants of that building than if there is no double glazing. That is a statement of the obvious but is a matter of judgment for the police on a case-by-case basis. The tests to be applied are clearly set out in the Bill and the police are well versed in applying similar tests in other contexts. The elected House has now reconsidered the amendments on public order a second time and has insisted on its disagreement with the relevant Lords amendments, but in the spirit of compromise it has put forward a constructive amendment to address concerns about the drafting of these provisions. I urge the House to accept this amendment.
I assure my noble friend Lord Cormack that in the normal way, this Bill will be subject to post-legislative scrutiny three to five years after Royal Assent. On the issue raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, the Bill also increases the maximum penalty for obstructing the highway. To answer my noble friend Lord Deben, we have honoured the deal. The Government have listened in so many ways on this Bill, as I have illustrated with a couple of examples, but part of this deal is that ultimately, the views of the elected House should have primacy. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, that, as I said earlier, the powers are vested not in the Home Secretary but in the police.
I note that the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, has also put forward his own compromise Amendment, 80J, which would enable the police to set conditions prescribing the start and end times of an assembly, as proposed by the Joint Committee on Human Rights. In our response to the JCHR report, we quoted from the HMICFRS report on the policing of protests, which said that
“protests are fluid, and it is not always possible to make this distinction”
between assemblies and processions.
“Some begin as assemblies and become processions, and vice versa. The practical challenges of safely policing a protest are not necessarily greater in the case of processions than in the case of assemblies, so this would not justify making a wider range of conditions available for processions than for assemblies”.
Given the findings of HMICFRS and the evidence provided by the police, we continue to believe that it is necessary and proportionate to ensure that the police have the power to place the same conditions on assemblies that they do on processions, and in addition to specifying the start and end time of—
Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)
I am sorry to interrupt the Minister. What is the point of a factsheet if the police are not to take account of it?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, it is intended to be helpful. Going back to something the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, said at Second Reading, which seems like an age ago now, we must provide clarity to the police. I totally agree with the points he made then.
Given the findings of HMICFRS and the evidence provided by the police, we still think it necessary and proportionate to ensure that the police have the power to place the same conditions on assemblies as they do on processions. In addition to specifying the start and end time of an assembly, as provided for in Amendment 80J, or the place where the assembly may take place and the maximum number of participants, as the 1986 Act currently provides for, it should be left to the operational judgment of the police to apply other necessary conditions—for example, conditions prohibiting the use of lock-on equipment where this could cause serious disruption to the life of the community.
This House has fulfilled its responsibilities as a revising Chamber, and I commend noble Lords for the time they have taken in scrutinising the Bill. It is now time for this Bill to pass.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
That this House do not insist on its Amendment 72B and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 72C and 72D in lieu.
“Response to Law Commission report on hate crime laws
(1) The Secretary of State must, before the end of the period of 12 months beginning with the day on which this Act is passed—
(a) prepare and publish a response to Recommendation 8 of the Law Commission report on hate crime (adding sex or gender as a protected characteristic for the purposes of aggravated offences and enhanced sentencing), and
(b) lay the response before Parliament.
(2) In this section “the Law Commission report on hate crime” means the Law Commission report “Hate Crime Laws” that was published on 7 December 2021.”
Baroness Williams of Trafford
That this House do not insist on its Amendment 73, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 73A; do not insist on its disagreement with the Commons in their Amendment 74A to its Amendment 74, on its Amendment 74B to that Amendment in lieu, or on its con- sequential Amendments 74C, 74D, 74E, 74F and 74G; do not insist on its Amendment 87, or on its disagreement with the Commons in their Amendments 87A, 87B, 87C, 87D, 87E and 87F to the words restored to the Bill; and do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 73C to the words restored to the Bill by their disagreement with Lords Amendment 73 and in their Amendment 87H to the words restored by their disagreement with Lords Amendment 87.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I beg to move.
Motion C1 (as an amendment to Motion C)
Baroness Williams of Trafford
That this House do not insist on its Amendment 80, do not insist on its disagreement with the Commons in their Amendments 80A, 80B, 80C, 80D, 80E and 80F to the words restored to the Bill by their disagreement with that Amendment, do not insist on its Amendment 80G instead of the words left out by that Amendment and do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 80H to the words restored to the Bill by their disagreement with Lords Amendment 80.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I beg to move.
Motion D1 (as an amendment to Motion D)
Police and Crime Commissioners: Budget
Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts(2 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Bach
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the decisions of Police and Crime Commissioners who have (1) cut the number of police officers in their police force area in their 2022/23 budget, and (2) applied for a grant from year 3 of the Police Uplift Programme.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, through the police uplift programme, police forces in England and Wales have recruited over 11,000 additional officers. Police and crime commissioners can also fund the recruitment of officers on top of the uplift allocations from local funding such as precept outside of the uplift grant. We collect data annually on local ambitions to recruit additional officers, to ensure that growth is tracked accurately.
Lord Bach (Lab)
My Lords, I remind the House that I am a former police and crime commissioner and I thank the Minister for her Answer. According to the Prime Minister himself, the Government are committed, as a priority, to increasing the number of police officers. How do they not see the need to criticise those PCCs, such as the new police and crime commissioner for Leicestershire, who even though they have the resources through government grant and maximum council tax, have chosen in their 2022-23 budgets to cut the number of police officers rather than increase it? Surely the Government have the courage to tell them that they are wrong.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
First, I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Bach, whom I saw first-hand doing an excellent job as a PCC for Leicestershire. Secondly, how PCCs allocate their funding and their officers is obviously a decision for local areas. Thirdly, if that PCC does not perform in line with the public’s expectations, they have the remedy at the ballot box.
Lord Lexden (Con)
My Lords, is it not outrageous that the PCC for Leicestershire and Rutland, who describes himself as a Conservative, is cutting police numbers while paying £100,000 plus expenses to Mike Veale, a man facing severe misconduct proceedings who, as chief constable for Wiltshire, besmirched the reputation of Sir Edward Heath—a wicked deed for which he has still not been called to account? Should not this dishonourable PCC be thrown out of the Conservative Party and the proceedings against Mr Veale started as soon as possible?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, his membership of the Conservative Party is clearly a matter for the Conservative Party. Whether he should continue as PCC, as I said earlier to the noble Lord, Lord Bach, is entirely a matter for the electorate.
Lord Paddick (LD)
My Lords, what power does the Home Secretary have to overrule police and crime commissioners—for example, if they refused to increase police numbers to achieve the Government’s planned 20,000 uplift, or when the Mayor of London forced the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis to resign? If the Home Secretary did not agree that Dame Cressida Dick should go, why did she not intervene at the time, rather than commission an inquiry after the event?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
Clearly, the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police Service has given notice of the end of her tenure. It appeared to be quite short notice, although she has yet to depart. I understand she will be departing in April and I join the Home Secretary in paying tribute to her work. I say to the noble Lord that the police are operationally independent and the PCC sets the direction for the local area. If the public in that area are not happy, they have the remedy at the ballot box.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
Is it not the reality that the new PCC for Leicestershire has, from the third tranche of the Government’s police uplift programme and the maximum permitted increase in council tax of £10 per year per dwelling, the resources for another 100 officers in 2022-23, as previously budgeted for and agreed? He has decided not to use the money for that purpose, even in part. The number of officers there will remain under 2010 levels in 2022-23, despite the Government saying that the overall 20,000 additional officers nationally are to restore the cuts in numbers since 2010. Does the Answer to my noble friend Lord Bach mean that the Government condone what the new PCC for Leicestershire is doing in using money intended to increase police officer numbers for other purposes in 2022-23?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, the Government have been absolutely clear on the police uplift programme: we expect that funding to go towards the 20,000 police officers. That is not in any doubt. What is in debate this afternoon is whether the precept should be used on top of that to fund police officers. Whether a local PCC decides to do that is down to that local PCC. Should local areas need to invest in additional police officers, they have the funding to do so through either the police uplift programme or indeed the precept.
Lord McLoughlin (Con)
My Lords, in welcoming the increase in police numbers that the Government have achieved, will my noble friend assure me that police and crime commissioners will have the flexibility to best respond to local circumstances? We are seeing that cybercrime does not necessarily need a uniformed officer to investigate it; police and crime commissioners may decide there are better ways to do it, and surely that is the point of having them.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My noble friend is absolutely right: local circumstances will dictate different needs in different places. He is absolutely correct to say that cyber and other types of crime—county lines, for example—may necessitate different solutions in different areas.
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)
My Lords, following that specific question and the implication that somehow this money was being spent on cybercrime, the principal cybercrime in this country is fraud. Some 42% of reported crime is fraud—despite the fact that the Government regularly drop off this figure when they talk about crime. Some 1% of police resources are used in policing fraud—so it clearly cannot be the case that these resources are being used for other policing purposes; they must be being used for something else.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I return to the point made by my noble friend: it is down to local elected PCCs to decide. Also, cyber is not just about fraud; it can be about all sorts of things, such as disruption et cetera. There are other bodies that deal with fraud as well, but, frankly, we deal with fraud and other types of crime across several agencies.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
My Lords, I declare that I have met several PCCs during my long interest in policing. It is true that Conservatives have a propensity to cut—they cut figures, costs and budgets all the time. It is exactly what the Conservatives did back in 2010, which caused chaos in policing, because the budget was cut so savagely and so quickly. So perhaps this PCC did not get the memo that the Government are now recruiting.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, I think all PCCs got the memo. The funding and the precept capability are there for police to not just get the numbers through the police uplift programme but to add to them through the precept, if they see fit in their area.
Lord Dholakia (LD)
My Lords, there is serious concern about the recruitment of police officers from the diverse communities in this country. If the number is cut, how will we improve on this record?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, the numbers will not be cut; they are going up quite significantly—I think they went up 9% in the last year. On the point about diversity, the noble Lord is absolutely right; we talked about this last year in relation to the HMICFRS report on the back of the Daniel Morgan inquiry. Over the last four years, numbers have gone steadily up in terms of BME representation in the Metropolitan Police.
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
My Lords, I refer to my interests in the register. Of course, it is to be commended that the Government are putting more resources into police numbers, but that is only to reverse the cuts that they themselves made. Can the Minister tell us how many of those who are being recruited as part of the uplift programme have actually completed their training and not dropped out or been found not to have met the necessary requirements? What are the Government doing about the chronic shortage of detectives, which is now apparent partly because of the loss of police officers over the last 12 years?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, the noble Lord raises an important point about how many officers have taken up their posts. The total number of officers recruited is nearly 140,000, which is an increase of nearly 10%, as I said. I do not know the dropout number. I suspect that 140,000 is the overall number, but if there are any dropouts I will let the noble Lord know.
Daniel Morgan Independent Panel Report
Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts(2 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Paddick (LD)
My Lords, I associate myself with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, in relation to the Daniel Morgan family, and remind the House that I was a Metropolitan Police officer for more than 30 years, holding the equivalent of deputy chief constable rank when I was forced out of the police service for being open and transparent about what was going on inside the Metropolitan Police Service—which I will refer to as the MPS.
Honest, decent police officers are being let down by the corrupt few, and by senior officers who do not take corruption seriously enough. As the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, said, some positive claims are made in the HMICFRS report about the MPS supporting whistleblowers and its capability to investigate the “most serious corruption”. Can the Minister give an example of the result of an investigation where a whistleblower has been supported, and an example of the successful prosecution of a case of the “most serious corruption”? It is one thing to point to systems and capabilities; it is quite another to prove that they are effective.
The rest of the report is devastating. In response to the Daniel Morgan Independent Panel report, the MPS claimed:
“The Met is working hard to root out corruption.”
Instead, HMICFRS says:
“We set out to establish what the force has learned from its failings and whether they could recur. We looked for evidence that someone, somewhere … had adopted the view that ‘this must never happen again’”—
but it could not find anyone.
In a catalogue of failings—I have time to mention only a few of them—HMICFRS found that: the MPS does not know whether all its sensitive posts, such as those for child protection, major investigation and informant handling, are filled by people who have been security cleared; 2,000 warrant cards of police officers who have left the MPS are unaccounted for, which these former officers could use to masquerade as serving police officers, with the potential for another Sarah Everard-type tragedy; and hundreds of items including cash, jewellery and drugs could not be accounted for, meaning that vital evidence could have been disposed of by corrupt officers. It also found that officers could be pocketing money and valuables and, potentially, dealing in illegal drugs that had been seized from criminals. This has happened before and could very easily, apparently, be happening again. I could go on, but there is no time.
HMICFRS concluded:
“Since 2016, we have repeatedly raised concerns with the Metropolitan Police about certain aspects of its counter-corruption work, including … its failure to adopt … approved counter-corruption recording methods … Our advice largely went unheeded.”
If this was a local authority department, the Minister responsible would have placed it in special measures and sent a team in to take over the running of it. Instead, the Minister in the other place tries to blame the Mayor of London.
The Metropolitan Police has national responsibility for such important issues as the security of the Royal Family and protection of government Ministers, and for terrorism. That is why the Commissioner and the Deputy Commissioner are in law appointed by the Home Secretary, having regard to the views of the Mayor of London. Even if the Government insist that responsibility lies with the Mayor of London, their inability to take direct action is the result of the system of police and crime commissioners, which includes elected mayors, that the Conservative Government introduced. So which is it? If the Government can directly intervene, why will they not, and if they cannot, when are they going to change the system of police and crime commissioners so that they can?
The security of this country is at stake, let alone the trust and confidence of Londoners, and the Government wash their hands of it. When are the Government going to take some responsibility and take action to deal with this totally unacceptable situation?
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for the points that they have made. I join them in conveying our thoughts to the Daniel Morgan family, some 35 years after their trauma and heartache began.
On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, about the reply to the Daniel Morgan Independent Panel, the Home Secretary will do so once she has received responses from the Metropolitan Police Service and others. It will be done as soon as she possibly can after that. He also made a point about whether the Metropolitan Police Service is institutionally corrupt. The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, pointed to the fact, which I would agree with, that most police officers are honest and very hard-working people. They are trying every day to keep the British public safe and we should not tar them all with the same brush, because that would be demoralising and not true, although I recognise what the Daniel Morgan Independent Panel said.
It is also interesting to read in the report that some of the processes that the Metropolitan Police Service is not following are actually evident in good practice across the country. Nevertheless, the Home Secretary has commissioned ongoing work for police forces across England and Wales.
On the points about arrogance, secrecy and confidence in the police, I have stood too many times at this Dispatch Box and heard those words quoted back at me. It is evident that although this report provides a really important start in trying to improve things within the Metropolitan Police Service, there is an enormously long way to go. I totally agree with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, about forthcoming appointments for the Met commissioner and the head of HMICFRS; I expect both appointments to be made shortly.
In answer to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, about what the Home Secretary is doing now, he will know about the work she commissioned from Dame Elish Angiolini, which addresses several points mentioned today, including culture and corruption, and the work that is ongoing with the noble Baroness, Lady Casey. As I said, the Home Secretary has also commissioned ongoing work with HMICFRS in these areas.
Moving on to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, the question about examples of whistleblowers being supported is very interesting. I suspect that, by the very nature of the investigations that take place, we would not necessarily publicly hear about whistleblowers. However, this area will probably be touched upon in the work that Dame Elish Angiolini and the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, are doing. I wholeheartedly support his dismay at the comment made in the HMICFRS report that nobody said that this must never happen again; that is depressing.
On the point the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, made about sensitive posts and vetting, the report clearly commented on sensitive posts and said that vetting needs to be looked at across those posts because the parameters are not clear. I also support his point about money and gifts, because the position is by no means clear in the Metropolitan Police Service. I know it is a matter for them, but police forces will want to look at that because, again, the approach is by no means consistent.
Lord Smith of Finsbury (Non-Afl)
My Lords, Alastair Morgan, the indefatigable brother of Daniel Morgan, was my constituent for 22 years when I was a Member of Parliament. I fought for many years, through a succession of Commissioners of the Metropolitan Police, to try to secure justice for Daniel Morgan’s family. Sadly, that has not been achieved, even now. The independent report last year and this report from the inspectorate make a series of useful and important recommendations; there will be lessons to be learned. However, I am worried that the Statement says:
“The Metropolitan police remains an exemplar in investigating serious corruption”.—[Official Report, Commons, 23/3/22; col. 374.]
This was not the case for Daniel Morgan, and it seems to me that there is a whiff of complacency about a statement of that kind. Through it all, I am distressed that justice has not been achieved for Daniel Morgan’s family. Will it ever be achieved?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I think my right honourable friend the Policing Minister asked that question yesterday. It is a very sad question to have to ask, 35 years on. In terms of the MPS being an exemplar in investigating serious corruption, this is talking about corruption within the police. Obviously the two are different things, but I hope, as my right honourable friend the Policing Minister said yesterday, that we will get closure for his family, because it must have been an agony for the last 35 years. I commend the noble Lord for the work that he has done on this.
The Lord Bishop of Manchester
My Lords, I want to echo from these Benches our concern for the Daniel Morgan family, and also to reiterate my interest in policing ethics at both force and national level, as set out in the register.
I am particularly interested in the comments on vetting made in the report. In Greater Manchester we commissioned our own investigation into the force’s vetting procedures a few years ago. While on the whole that was satisfactory, as the report here has done, it identified that people from UK minority ethnic backgrounds were disproportionately getting vetted out of the system, both at recruitment level and promotion level.
I am grateful that there is talk of a wider piece of research into vetting nationally. I would appreciate some reassurances from the Minister that its terms of reference will ensure that any recommendations that are made fully bear in mind that we must have a police force that replicates the diversity of our population, including ethnic diversity.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I agree with the right reverend Prelate and I think I pointed out, either yesterday or the day before, that one thing we can be positive about is the increasing representation of BAME communities within the Metropolitan Police force.
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
My Lords, I refer to my policing interests in the register. I hope there is no satisfaction within the Metropolitan Police that the inspectorate has not confirmed the findings of the independent inquiry that the force is institutionally corrupt—although the inspectorate has said that it is not yet in a position to make a final judgment on that.
A point has just been made about vetting. I have just concluded an inquiry looking at London’s preparedness on terrorism issues. I looked at some of the vetting issues, but not in the detail that some of the new reviews will be going into. I came across one firearms officer who told me that he had not been repeat vetted for 21 years. So the issue is not just about vetting to get in or when a new role is taken on; it is about how often it is repeated. I wonder whether the Minister will say whether the Home Office or the College of Policing will be giving clearer guidance on that.
My second point is that 20 years ago, when I was responsible for overseeing the work of the Metropolitan Police, we introduced a process of random integrity testing. If a police officer received a bribe, they would not know whether it was being proffered by a criminal or perhaps by the force’s own professional standards department. At some point in the intervening period—I do not know who was mayor at the time—that was stopped in favour of intelligence-led integrity testing. Will the Minister be trying to go back to the process of random integrity testing? I think that is important.
I have one final point, if I am not overstaying my role here. We have talked about the problems with warrant cards. We talked about the murder of Sarah Everard. Why is it not possible for every warrant card to have a RFID chip in it? That would mean that it would be possible to track exactly where the cards were and what they were being used for at the time.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, I was not thinking so much about the warrant card in tracking, but if I get sacked as a Minister tomorrow because I have done so badly at this Statement, the minute I get sacked I can no longer get into the Home Office. I have been thinking of all sorts of practical solutions to this. I think it is a very serious question for the police to answer, given that there are 2,000 cards out there; it is not just 200, it is 2,000. I totally accept the noble Lord’s point about finding innovative solutions.
On the repeat vetting, the Government expect the College of Policing to consider the findings from this inspection and other relevant inquiries and then to update its guidance appropriately, as the noble Lord said. We will now consider next steps, following the wider vetting inspection being carried out by the inspectorate. We want to make clear that the Met must take immediate steps to safeguard its workforce and, as a result, the wider public.
On the noble Lord’s first point about whether there is any satisfaction in the Metropolitan Police about this report, it would take a strange person to find any satisfaction in this report.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
My Lords, back in 2000, when I was first elected to the London Assembly, the then Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, appointed me to the Metropolitan Police Authority under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Harris. At that point, the case of Daniel Morgan was a 13 year-old scandal, and now it is a 35 year-old scandal—and still no one has been arrested, charged or whatever. We ought, if only in Daniel Morgan’s memory, to try to create a situation where the police can be more respected.
I mention the vetting procedures, because obviously you need to vet new recruits extremely carefully and carry on vetting during the lifetime of police officers. But there is also the whole training issue: you have to train officers to be responsible and honest and to have a duty of candour, which was one of the recommendations. There has to be zero tolerance of the sort of misogyny, sexism and racism that we have seen repetitively over the past few years. On a final point, I do not trust the current commissioner to achieve these things, so the faster we get a new commissioner, the better.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, I have touched on the new commissioner, and I expect that appointment to be very soon indeed. On the duty of candour, as the noble Baroness might have heard me say, last year we introduced a duty of co-operation, which is very strict in its application and can result in sanction or, indeed, sacking for those who do not abide by it.
Vetting has come up in every single instance when I have stood up to talk about the Metropolitan Police over the last few months. On the number, in 2018 there was a backlog of 16,000 people waiting to be vetted. That number is now 671, so in terms of throughput that is an encouraging figure. Forty files were reviewed by the inspectorate to see whether the checks recommended by the College of Policing, through its authorised professional practice on vetting, had been completed, and they had in every single case.
The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, talked about people working in more sensitive posts, and I think I gave a response to that. I have also talked about the ongoing work commissioned by the Home Secretary, and the work by Dame Elish and the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, which touches on the points that the noble Baroness talked about. That does not take away from the point that vetting comes up time and again, and it is clearly an area that needs to be investigated and addressed.
Lord Lexden (Con)
What happened in the Daniel Morgan case was utterly unforgivable. In view of that and other dreadful scandals, why is there no plan for reform to bring about the far-reaching change that is needed and to rebuild confidence in the Metropolitan Police throughout our community, particularly among women and our black compatriots?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I think there is no doubt that that is the conclusion that all in this House have reached. I have talked about the various inspections that are going on, but I also want to come back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, and pay tribute to most members of the Metropolitan Police, who do a fantastic job; we were just commemorating the anniversary of the death of PC Palmer the other day. Most police do an excellent job, but there is so much work to be done to restore confidence and trust in the police.
Lord Storey (LD)
My Lords, obviously, our thoughts are with Daniel Morgan’s family. I speak as somebody who does not have detailed knowledge of policing. Like, I guess, millions of people, I find the situation difficult to understand. In our schools, for example—the area where I come from—nobody is allowed to work unless they have a safeguarding qualification, a DBS safeguarding check. However, we hear that police officers and people working in the police service do not necessarily have that check. Nobody would be allowed to work in a school if they had a criminal record, and yet we find that some police and ancillary staff have criminal records. If it happened in a school, the head teacher or the principal would be immediately disciplined. Why does this happen in the Met? It is not difficult to ensure that everyone has a safeguarding qualification or to check that everybody does not have a police record—and if they do, they should not be there. Somebody has to take responsibility, and if that responsibility is taken, the person who allowed that has to step down.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
On the back of all the discussions we have been having today, it is written in statute that within 56 days the Mayor of London and the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police will have to respond with an action plan to deal with all the issues we have talked about today. There will be an expectation that the recommendations be carried out within 12 months. In fact, the Home Secretary has made it clear that such is the seriousness of this that she hopes that some of that action plan will be taken forward within the 56 days.
The Earl of Erroll (CB)
My Lords, I will say a couple of things as a techie. First, RFID chips do not transmit on to any remote system—they work only in proximity, so they are checked only when you go through something. Therefore, you cannot track people through an RFID chip on a card. It is simply presented to a device, so you cannot track people around the place. It sounds like a great idea but it does not totally work; you would need to track people’s mobile phones, for example.
The next problem is the DBS check, which tells you only if someone has not been caught yet; it does not tell you what they are up to now. Another problem is the definition of a criminal offence. Not having a television licence gives you a criminal record, as does fishing without a licence. A lot of things give you a criminal record which really should not be there, so it is a tricky having a blanket thing saying that if people fail a DBS check, they should not be there. We should probably look at that system and have two different categories: one for the serious things where you really need to worry about whether you employ people, and another for the things which, to be honest, are trivial—they are almost statutory offences but yet they are still criminal offences. There should be a review of that.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I take the points the noble Earl makes about the various technological solutions. Of course, we will consider any recommendations made by the Angiolini inquiry in this space. I would also say to the noble Earl that police vetting is a lot more thorough than DBS checks. However, there is definitely more to come on this, and I look forward to some of these things being addressed both in the short term and within the next year.
Lord Davies of Gower (Con)
My Lords, I spent 32 years as a CID officer in the Metropolitan Police as a crime investigator and a crime manager. Many of those years were spent on the counterterrorism command, and I worked with very good, diligent police officers. On the point about corruption, the latest HMICFRS report rejected the independent panel’s assertions that the Metropolitan Police is institutionally corrupt, and I welcome that, although of course I recognise the many other issues that exist around the Metropolitan Police. Does the Minister agree that a lot of those issues come from lack of training? What more can the Home Office do with regard to training, which I feel has deteriorated badly over the years within the Metropolitan Police in particular?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My noble friend makes a very good point because in reading this report I observed that the Metropolitan Police is very good at doing the big things and that some of the important details, such as vetting, internal corruption, gifts, evidence and the things my noble friend talks about, were less focused on. That is something that the Metropolitan Police will have to answer through its action plans in the short and long term. On training, I expect to see it much more consistent throughout the force, but I think that perhaps in focusing on the big things the Metropolitan Police has neglected important details of the job.
Lord Paddick (LD)
With the leave of the House, I shall ask a question for clarification. I thought I heard the Minister say that the Home Secretary would respond once the Metropolitan Police had given its response to the Daniel Morgan Independent Panel report. My understanding was that the Metropolitan Police gave its response last week, which was then largely contradicted by the HMICFRS report. If I am right, can the Minister tell us when the Home Secretary is likely to respond to both reports?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I was responding to the response to the findings of the Daniel Morgan Independent Panel report. I understand that the Home Secretary will be returning to the House to update on progress once she has received responses from the MPS and others.
Metropolitan Police: Strip-search of Schoolgirl
Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts(2 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Coaker (Lab)
My Lords, we are all, frankly, utterly appalled by the sickening details of the strip-search of Child Q, a 15-year-old black schoolgirl, a child, at a Hackney secondary school in 2020—an absolute disgrace.
How was it that existing guidance failed to prevent police officers undertaking this shocking strip-search? The Government have said there is to be a review of the incident and the guidance, but when will this be finished? How many such strip-searches have there been across the country? What is in place to protect children now?
Jim Gamble’s review concluded that the search was unjustified and that racism was likely to have been a factor. What is the ethnic breakdown of strip-searches conducted in the Metropolitan Police area and across the country? How on earth are we going to change this culture of racism, and soon? Child Q said:
“I need to know that the people who have done this to me can’t do it to anyone else ever again.”
Can the Minister assure Child Q, this Chamber and the country at large, of that?
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
First, I join the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, in expressing my disgust at what has happened to a child—and at school, no less. He is absolutely right to ask the questions he has asked.
I understand that the review by the IOPC, which I assume he is referring to, will be done at pace. His question on the collection of data is also absolutely the right question to ask. What are we doing now? I understand that from December this year, we will be including more detailed custody data in the annual police powers and procedure statistical bulletin. It will include the number of persons, including children, detained in police custody, broken down by age, gender, ethnicity and offence type. It will include the number of children detained in custody overnight, whether pre-charge or post-charge, broken down by age, gender, ethnicity and offence type. In fact, the noble Lord will recall that some time ago we banned the detention of children in custody, so I hope that figure comes out as nought.
Crucially, on the question of whether an appropriate adult was called out for a detained child, the review has yet to report but on the face of it, that does not appear to have been the case here. In the case of a detained adult who was declared vulnerable, and regarding the question whether an appropriate was adult called out, there is the time taken for an appropriate adult to arrive and the number of strip-searches carried out, broken down by age, gender, ethnicity and offence type. I am sure that all noble Lords and the other place will be very interested to hear those statistics, and I hope that is helpful at this stage to the noble Lord.
Noble Lords
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, on the latter question, the outcome of that will be forthcoming in the review undertaken by the IOPC. In terms of police and the interface with vulnerable people and children, it is essential that front-line police recognise vulnerability in children and young people regardless of the circumstances around any interaction. We have funded various training programmes for social workers, health professionals, police and safeguarding leads in schools, and the Home Office-funded National Policing Vulnerability Knowledge and Practice Programme shares the very best practice across forces. As I say, on the noble Lord’s latter question, that is for the IOPC to conclude in its investigation, which I understand has almost finished.
Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)
My Lords, I note that your Lordships are rightly concerned about data and evidence gathering, which we need to do in any problem-solving exercise. But as my noble friend Lady Lawrence of Clarendon said just yesterday, what evidence do we need after all these years—I would add, after recent years in particular—that we have a problem with police culture? It is not just an issue of data; it is an issue of culture, leadership and, I would say, law. We have just passed sometimes controversial police legislation, and the broader the power, the greater the discretion. If there are, as there always are, because humans are human—
Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)
Thank you for that. If there are questions of discretion, there will be questions of abuse of power. What were the teachers doing when this happened? What instructions will be given to the new appointee to the Metropolitan Police? What will we do about future broad powers before we hand blank cheques to the police?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I will try to answer those questions rapidly because I know that other noble Lords are keen to get in. Teachers have a very clear duty of care to the children in their schools; that is writ large in every safeguarding policy in every school. In terms of culture, I know that Dame Angiolini and the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, in both their pieces of work for the Home Office, are involved in looking at the culture within the police. I do not think that anyone is trying to whitewash, for want of a better word, the fact that there are issues of culture within the police. We have seen so many incidents—Sarah Everard, to name but one. It is clear that over the last couple of years, BAME representation in the police has been much more representative of the population at large, and that can only be a good thing.
The Lord Bishop of Leeds
My Lords, there is an underlying question here that came up in the Sarah Everard case: how do you say no to the police? What do the Government plan to do to encourage and support schools and public authorities in addressing that question?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
The right reverend Prelate may have heard me say, when we discussed Sarah Everard’s murder, that I would not feel confident in saying no to the police if I were requested to do something. In a way, that is at the heart of this issue. It will all come out in the IOPC review, but did the school have confidence in saying, “Excuse me?” to the police or, “This is the way that we do safeguarding at this school”? That will all come out in the review. However, whatever the organisation, whether it is schools, teachers or the health service, we need to have confidence in challenging—not refusing but challenging—the police if we think they have got it wrong.
Baroness Benjamin (LD)
My Lords, childhood lasts a lifetime. The indignity that child Q had to go through is going to scar her for life. My daughter is a teacher and she too was appalled to learn about this blatant act of abuse of human and legal rights in a school—a place where children should be protected from physical and emotional harm. After the death of George Floyd, and Black Lives Matter, we all should know better. The police should know the importance of following the stringent guidelines and procedure when dealing with cases involving young people, especially those of colour, so both teachers and the police have questions to answer. What is being done to reinforce the safeguarding measures already in place to ensure that this kind of abusive and traumatic incident never, ever, happens again?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
The noble Baroness will have heard me talk about some of the measures that are already in schools and public institutions to safeguard children. Safeguarding children should be at the centre of what we do as public servants. There are clear guidelines around safeguarding and the type of thing we were talking about this week in relation to child Q. Strip-searching is probably one of the most intrusive things that one could ever do to a child.
I am going to beg the indulgence of the House and ask whether the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, might be allowed to come in.
The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Fookes) (Con)
I am sorry, but the time is up. I will allow a short interval for Peers who do not wish to take part in the next business to leave the Chamber.
Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill
Baroness Williams of Trafford ExcerptsTuesday 22nd March 2022
(2 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 View all Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 123-I Marshalled list for Consideration of Commons Reasons and Amendments - (21 Mar 2022)
Baroness Williams of Trafford
That this House do not insist on its Amendment 73, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 73A, do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 74A, do not insist on its Amendment 87 and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 87A, 87B, 87C, 87D, 87E and 87F to the words restored to the Bill by the Commons disagreement to Lords Amendment 87.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House I will also speak to Motions F, F1, F2, G, H, H1 and N.
I shall begin with Amendment 143, as I believe that there is a large measure of agreement across the House on the need to better protect schools and vaccination centres from disruptive protests that take place outside such locations. The Government have listened carefully to the arguments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, for introducing fast-tracked public spaces protection orders on a case-by-case basis.
Amendments 143A to 143C are similar to Amendment 143. They make provision for expedited PSPOs, which local authorities can apply to public places around schools, and to vaccine and test-and-trace centres, for up to six months. As with the original amendment, an expedited PSPO would need to be made with the consent of the relevant chief officer of police and, as the case may be, the appropriate authority for the school or NHS body in question. The local authority would then be required to consult on the expedited PSPO once it was in place. These amendments in lieu were welcomed by the shadow Policing Minister in the Commons, and I hope they will be similarly accepted by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and others.
It is the Government’s view that we must balance the rights of protesters to exercise their freedom of speech and assembly with the rights of non-protestors who might be adversely affected by a protest. Part 3 of this Bill has always been about a modest resetting of that balance, and it firmly remains our view that the provisions in Clauses 55, 56 and 61, which Amendments 73, 80 and 87 seek wholly or partly to expunge, should remain part of the Bill.
Noble Lords will recall that Amendments 73 and 87 relate to measures that would enable the police to attach conditions to a protest in circumstances relating to the generation of noise. As I have said to the House before, but it is worth saying again, we expect the vast majority of protests to be unaffected by these provisions. It is exceptional for the police to attach any conditions to a protest, and that will not change. Of course, protests are generally by their nature noisy; their purpose is to advance a particular cause. These measures do not prevent noisy protests, but the Government continue to believe that it is completely unacceptable that a small minority of protestors can, through the use of amplification equipment or other means, impose disruption and misery upon the public through the excessive noise they generate. The noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, put it well in Committee:
“We have to consider its effect on people, where it is either so loud or so persistent that it cannot be ignored.”—[Official Report, 24/11/21; col. 944.]
If we accept that there must be limitations on egregious noise in other contexts—that is why local authorities have noise abatement powers—the same principle should apply in the context of a protest where the level of noise becomes injurious to others.
Amendment 80 would remove Clause 56. This clause would enable the police to attach any type of condition to a public assembly, in the same way that they can attach any type of condition to a public procession. The distinction between processions and assemblies no longer reflects the contemporary realities of policing protests over three and a half decades after the Public Order Act was enacted. This point has forcefully been made both by the national policing lead for public order, Chief Constable Harrington, and by Her Majesty’s inspectors of constabulary. We should recognise their expertise in this regard and accept that the 1986 Act needs to be updated.
Turning to Amendments 81 and 82, I am grateful for the further opportunity I have had to discuss them with the noble Viscount, Lord Colville. The noble Viscount has made a powerful point that the Palace of Westminster is the symbolic representation of our vibrant democracy and that it must be open to those who want to do so to protest in the vicinity of these Houses of Parliament. I want again to reassure the House that Clause 58 will not have the effect that some noble Lords have feared.
Since our last debate, we have discussed this further with the Greater London Authority, which has categorically confirmed that, were Clause 58 in its original form to be enacted, it will continue to authorise rallies and protests, as it currently does, on the GLA-managed area of Parliament Square Garden.
Since I had the opportunity to discuss this further with the noble Viscount last week, my officials have also been in touch with the Metropolitan Police, and it has similarly confirmed that the provisions in Clause 58 do not affect its ability to manage large protests of 5,000 people or more within Parliament Square. I should stress that it is not the function of the Metropolitan Police to authorise or otherwise protests in the vicinity of Parliament but to exercise its powers under the Public Order Act to attach conditions to a protest. The Metropolitan Police has also reassured us that, as with other public order powers, it will use this new power of direction only in a manner that is reasonable, necessary and proportionate to the rights of individuals to engage in peaceful protest.
As we are talking about the Houses of Parliament, I think this might be a good moment to reflect on the death of PC Palmer, five years ago today. I cannot believe it was five years ago, but it is. We pay tribute to him for the way he tried to protect the Palace when he was murdered.
Finally, moving to Amendment 88, this is a watered-down version of the Government’s plan to increase the maximum penalty for the existing offence of obstructing a highway. It is vital that we protect all our roads from the disruptive and damaging actions that we have seen some protestors employ in recent months. Limiting this increase to the strategic road network only, which excludes most A roads, as well as more minor roads, as this amendment seeks to do, would allow individuals to continue to block our roads without facing the appropriate sanction. I should stress that we are increasing the maximum penalty for this offence. It would continue to be for the court to decide the appropriate sentence in any particular case, and I would expect the sentence imposed to reflect the harm caused.
We have listened to and reflected on the concerns raised by noble Lords on Report. As is entirely proper, this House asked the other place to think again. It has now done so. The elected House has now endorsed, not once but twice, the provisions in the Bill enabling the police to attach conditions to a protest relating to the generation of noise. The elected House has also disagreed, following separate Divisions, with the Lords amendments relating to the policing of assemblies and protests in the vicinity of Parliament. We have done our duty as a revising Chamber, but now that the Commons has clearly expressed its view, I put it to the House that it is time to let this Bill pass. I commend the Commons reasons and amendments to the House.
Motion E1 (as an amendment to Motion E)
Lord Coaker
Moved by
Leave out from “House” and insert “do insist on its Amendment 73, do disagree with the Commons in their Amendment 74A and propose Amendment 74B to Lords Amendment 74 in lieu and Amendments 74C, 74D, 74E, 74F and 74G as consequential amendments, and do insist on its Amendment 87 and disagree with the Commons in their Amendments 87A, 87B, 87C, 87D, 87E and 87F—
74B: Leave out lines 20 to 26
74C: As an amendment to Lords Amendment 75, leave out “any of subsections (2ZA) to (2ZC)” and insert “subsection (2ZA) or (2ZB)”
74D: As an amendment to Lords Amendment 76, leave out “any” and insert “either”
74E: As an amendment to the Bill, page 47, leave out lines 36 and 37
74F: As an amendment to the Bill, page 47, line 40, leave out “an expression mentioned in subsection 12(a) or (b)” and insert “that expression”
74G: As an amendment to the Bill, page 47, leave out lines 44 and 45
Viscount Stansgate (Lab)
My Lords, before we vote on this Motion, I invite Members to consider what the history of our country would have been like if the laws that the Government are proposing had been in place at the time. We are very proud of the development of parliamentary democracy in this country, but I can think of major occasions in the past when major change took place which was quite right and very noisy. Do you think that the Chartist demonstration that took place two miles from here at Kennington was noiseless? Were the suffragettes and suffragists who waged the campaign to give women the right to vote somehow noiseless? They were noisy. Do you think that the poll tax demonstrations were noiseless? They were noisy, and the Government of the day finally realised that it was a mistaken policy. I modestly mention to your Lordships that this legislation will unleash terrible trouble in the future. I do not know what kind or when, and I am not a barrister so I will not benefit personally from any of the legal cases that will arise, but it will cause trouble and it should not be passed.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, I cannot see anyone trying to get up. If they are doing, they are probably behind me; do not encourage them. I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, that we always keep all legislation under review. The Minister in the other place, in saying that, was not saying anything unusual.
I am glad that I give the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, the opportunity to vent at every piece of legislation that I bring into this House, because we are friends and I feel that it is some form of therapy for her. I do not know why she was picking out the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, for not supporting her, but that is probably a side issue that I do not know anything about. She talked about reading the public mood, and I will get on to that and the facts behind the public mood shortly; I warn her that she will not like it. About Putin’s Russia, or indeed Ukraine, I do not want to make a cheap point but I see the point about democracy. The people of Ukraine or Russia will look at this Parliament and realise how very lucky we are that we can not only argue but shout at each other and the majority wins. Noble Lords will be particularly pleased because there is generally a majority against the Government in this place.
Amendments 143A to 143C provide for the expedited public spaces protection orders. I am glad that they find favour with the noble Lord, Lord Coaker. In doing so, clearly he makes the distinction between noise generally, noisy protests and noise that is injurious to others, as evidenced by his amendments.
I welcome the noble Lord’s acceptance of the decision taken by the other place in relation to the increase in the maximum penalty for the offence of obstructing a highway as reflected in Amendment 88A. I am sorry that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, takes a different view, but I hope she will not press Motion H1, given that the courts are able to take into account the level of disruption when sentencing for this offence.
I know the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, is not in his place, but I want to make the point that we have had a very constructive discussion on Amendments 81 and 82. I hope that he will have heard it remotely. Like him, we want to monitor carefully the impact of Clause 58 to ensure that it does not have the unintended consequences of inhibiting large protests in the vicinity of Parliament. I was particularly struck by our conversation: when I was coming into Parliament on my bike this morning—I know noble Lords are very impressed—there was an ambulance trying to get into Parliament, and it kind of illustrated the point for me.
Amendments 73, 80 and 87 relate to the powers of the police—not the Government or the Secretary of State—to attach conditions to protests, including, in particular, in relation to the generation of noise. I know that noble Lords continue to have concerns about these provisions, and I hear that in the House today. I think they are unfounded, and I say again that the provisions do not ban noisy protests; the overwhelming majority of protests will be unaffected by these provisions. But are noble Lords really saying that any amount of noise, in any situation, at any time and for any length of time, is acceptable if it is generated by protestors? The amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, clearly demonstrate that it is not. The Government do not subscribe to this view and nor does the majority of the British public. Back to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb: we have seen in a recent YouGov poll that 53% of respondents supported giving senior police officers powers to set noise limits on protests, compared to just 33% of respondents opposing the measure.
As I said in my opening remarks, the elected House has now endorsed the noise-related measures on two separate occasions during the passage of this Bill. They have the support of the British public that they should now be allowed to pass. I invite the House to reject Motion E1.
Lord Coaker (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her reply and all noble Lords who have responded to the debate on my amendment. I do not want to detain the House because there is a lot of other business to pursue. Let me just say that the noise provision is the one we really object to. I think that, if it is passed, in a year or two years, a senior police officer will restrict a demonstration on the basis of noise. The Minister has prayed in aid public opinion in her favour. The public will ask who on earth passed legislation that means they cannot demonstrate in a democracy in their own country—who allowed that to happen? It will be this Parliament, and for that reason I press Motion E1.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
Moved by
That this House do not insist on its Amendment 80 and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 80A, 80B, 80C, 80D, 80E and 80F to the words restored to the Bill by the Commons disagreement to Lords Amendment 80.
80A: Page 48, line 40, at end insert—
““(2ZA) For the purposes of subsection (1)(a), the cases in which a public assembly
in England and Wales may result in serious disruption to the life of the community include, in particular, where—
(a) it may result in a significant delay to the supply of a time-sensitive product to consumers of that product, or
(b) it may result in a prolonged disruption of access to any essential goods or any essential service, including, in particular, access to—
(i) the supply of money, food, water, energy or fuel,
(ii) a system of communication,
(iii) a place of worship,
(iv) a transport facility,
(v) an educational institution, or (vi) a service relating to health.
(2ZB) In subsection (2ZA)(a) “time-sensitive product” means a product whose value or use to its consumers may be significantly reduced by a delay in the supply of the product to them.
(2ZC) For the purposes of subsection (1)(aa), the cases in which the noise generated by persons taking part in a public assembly may result in serious disruption to the activities of an organisation which are carried on in the vicinity of the assembly include, in particular, where it may result in persons connected with the organisation not being reasonably able, for a prolonged period of time, to carry on in that vicinity the activities or any one of them.”
80B: Page 49, line 13, leave out “make” and insert “amend any of subsections (2ZA) to (2ZC) for the purposes of making”
80C: Page 49, line 18, after “particular” insert “, amend any of those subsections for the purposes of”
80D: Page 49, line 19, leave out “define” and insert “defining”
80E: Page 49, line 21, leave out “give” and insert “giving”
80F: Page 49, line 31, at end insert “, including provision which makes consequential amendments to this Part.”
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, I have already spoken to Motion F and I beg to move.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
That this House do not insist on its Amendments 81 and 82, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reasons 81A and 82A.
81A: Because it is not appropriate to enable authorisation to be given for obstruction of access to the Parliamentary Estate.
82A: Because it is not appropriate to enable authorisation to be given for obstruction of access to the Parliamentary Estate.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 88A.
88A: Leave out lines 5 to 9 and insert—
“(2) In subsection (1)—
(a) after “liable to” insert “imprisonment for a term not exceeding 51 weeks or”;
(b) for “not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale” substitute “or both”.”
Baroness Williams of Trafford
That this House do not insist on its Amendments 89 and 146 and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 146A and 146B in lieu.
146A: Page 56, line 32, at end insert the following new Clause—
“Repeal of the Vagrancy Act 1824 etc
(1) The Vagrancy Act 1824 is repealed.
(2) Subsections (3) to (7) contain amendments and repeals in consequence of subsection (1).
(3) The following are repealed— (a) the Vagrancy Act 1935;
(b) section 2(3)(c) of the House to House Collections Act 1939 (licences);
(c) section 20 of the Criminal Justice Act 1967 (power of magistrates’ court to commit on bail for sentence);
(d) in the Criminal Justice Act 1982—
(i) section 70 and the italic heading immediately before that section (vagrancy offences), and
(ii) paragraph 1 of Schedule 14 and the italic heading immediately before that paragraph (minor and consequential amendments);
(e) section 43(5) of the Mental Health Act 1983 (power of magistrates’ courts to commit for restriction order);
(f) section 26(5) of the Criminal Justice Act 1991 (alteration of certain penalties);
(g) in the Criminal Justice Act 2003—
(i) paragraphs 1 and 2 of Schedule 25 and the italic heading immediately before those paragraphs (summary offences no longer punishable with imprisonment), and
(ii) paragraphs 145 and 146 of Schedule 32 and the italic heading immediately before those paragraphs (amendments relating to sentencing);
(h) paragraph 18 of Schedule 8 to the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 (powers of accredited persons).
(4) In section 81 of the Public Health Acts Amendment Act 1907 (extending definition of public place and street for certain purposes), omit the words from “shall”, in the first place it occurs, to “public place, and”.
(5) In section 48(2) of the Forestry Act 1967 (powers of entry and enforcement), omit “or against the Vagrancy Act 1824”.
(6) In the Police Reform Act 2002—
(a) in Schedule 3C (powers of community support officers and community support volunteers)—
(i) omit paragraph 3(3)(b), (ii) omit paragraph 7(3), (iii) in paragraph 7(4), omit “or (3)”, and (iv) in paragraph 7(7)(a), omit “or (3)”, and
(b) in Schedule 5 (powers exercisable by accredited persons), omit paragraph 2(3)(aa).
(7) In the Sentencing Code—
(a) in section 20(1) (committal in certain cases where offender committed in respect of another offence)—(i) at the end of paragraph (e), insert “or”, and
(ii) omit paragraph (g) (and the “or” immediately before it), and
(b) omit section 24(1)(f) (further powers to commit offender to the Crown Court to be dealt with).
(8) The amendments and repeals made by this section do not apply in relation to an offence committed before this section comes into force.”
146B: Page 194, line 22, after “61” insert “, (Repeal of the Vagrancy Act 1824 etc)”
Lord Best (CB)
My Lords, I hope the House will indulge me if I say a few concluding words about Motion J on the repeal of the Vagrancy Act, with my sincere apologies that I failed to speak during the earlier debate. I welcome the Commons Amendments 146A and 146B in lieu of Lords Amendments 89 and 146, which were passed by your Lordships on 17 January. The Commons version covers the same ground as our amendments and will finally repeal the notorious Vagrancy Act 1824. This means that being homeless and sleeping rough will no longer make you a criminal.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
That this House do not insist on its Amendments 114, 115 and 116 and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 116A and 116B in lieu.
116A: Page 137, line 5, at end insert—
“(3A) A report under subsection (3) must in particular include—
(a) information about the number of offenders in respect of whom serious violence reduction orders have been made;
(b) information about the offences that were the basis for applications as a result of which serious violence reduction orders were made;
(c) information about the exercise by constables of the powers in section 342E of the Sentencing Code (serious violence reduction orders: powers of constables);
(d) an assessment of the impact of the operation of Chapter 1A of Part 11 of the Sentencing Code on people with protected characteristics (within the meaning of the Equality Act 2010);
(e) an initial assessment of the impact of serious violence reduction orders on the reoffending rates of offenders in respect of whom such orders have been made;
(f) an assessment of the impact on offenders of being subject to a serious violence reduction order;
(g) information about the number of offences committed under section 342G of the Sentencing Code (offences relating to a serious violence reduction order) and the number of suspected offences under that section that have been investigated.”
116B: Page 137, line 22, after “section” insert—
“serious violence reduction order” has the same meaning as in Chapter 1A of Part 11 of the Sentencing Code (see section 342B of the Sentencing Code);”
Baroness Williams of Trafford
That this House do not insist on its Amendments 141 and 142, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reasons 141A and 142A.
141A: Because conduct requiring or arranging sexual relations as a condition of accommodation may already constitute an offence under the Sexual Offences Act 2003 and the Government is committed to undertaking a consultation on whether the law in respect of such conduct needs to be strengthened.
142A: Because conduct requiring or arranging sexual relations as a condition of accommodation may already constitute an offence under the Sexual Offences Act 2003 and the Government is committed to undertaking a consultation on whether the law in respect of such conduct needs to be strengthened.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
That this House do not insist on its Amendment 143 and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 143A, 143B and 143C in lieu.
143A Page 56, line 32, at end insert—
“Expedited public spaces protection orders
(1) The Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014 is amended as follows.
(2) After section 59 insert—
“59A Power to make expedited public spaces protection orders
(1) A local authority may make an expedited public spaces protection order (an “expedited order”) in relation to a public place within the local authority’s area if satisfied on reasonable grounds that three conditions are met.
(2) The first condition is that the public place is in the vicinity of—
(a) a school in the local authority’s area, or
(b) a site in the local authority’s area where, or from which—
(i) vaccines are provided to members of the public by, or pursuant to arrangements with, an NHS body, or (ii) test and trace services are provided.
The reference in paragraph (b)(i) to arrangements includes arrangements made by the NHS body in the exercise of functions of another person by virtue of any provision of the National Health Service Act 2006.
(3) The second condition is that activities carried on, or likely to be carried on, in the public place by one or more individuals in the course of a protest or demonstration have had, or are likely to have, the effect of—
(a) harassing or intimidating members of staff or volunteers at the school or site,
(b) harassing or intimidating persons using the services of the school or site,
(c) impeding the provision of services by staff or volunteers at the school or site, or
(d) impeding access by persons seeking to use the services of the school or site.
(4) The third condition is that the effect or likely effect mentioned in subsection (3)—
(a) is, or is likely to be, of a persistent or continuing nature,
(b) is, or is likely to be, such as to make the activities unreasonable, and
(c) justifies the restrictions imposed by the order.
(5) An expedited order is an order that identifies the public place referred to in subsection (1) (“the restricted area”) and— (a) prohibits specified things being done in the restricted area,
(b) requires specified things to be done by persons carrying on specified activities in that area, or (c) does both of those things.
(6) The only prohibitions or requirements that may be imposed are ones that are reasonable to impose in order—
(a) to prevent the harassment, intimidation or impediment referred to in subsection (3) from continuing, occurring or recurring, or
(b) to reduce that harassment, intimidation or impediment or to reduce the risk of its continuance, occurrence or recurrence.
(7) A prohibition or requirement may be framed—
(a) so as to apply to all persons, or only to persons in specified categories, or to all persons except those in specified categories;
(b) so as to apply at all times, or only at specified times, or at all times except those specified;
(c) so as to apply in all circumstances, or only in specified circumstances, or in all circumstances except those specified.
(8) An expedited order must—
(a) identify the activities referred to in subsection (3);
(b) explain the effect of section 63 (where it applies) and section 67;
(c) specify the period for which the order has effect.
(9) An expedited order may not be made in relation to a public place if that place (or any part of it) is or has been the subject of an expedited order (“the earlier order”), unless the period specified in subsection (11) has expired.
(10) In subsection (9) the second reference to “an expedited order” is to be read as including a reference to a public spaces protection order (made after the day on which this section comes into force) which neither prohibited nor required anything that could not have been prohibited or required by an expedited order.
(11) The period specified in this subsection is the period of a year beginning with the day on which the earlier order ceased to have effect.
(12) An expedited order must be published in accordance with regulations made by the Secretary of State.
(13) For the purposes of subsection (2), a public place that is coextensive with, includes, or is wholly or partly within, a school or site is regarded as being “in the vicinity of” that school or site.
(14) In this section references to a “school” are to be read as including a 16 to 19 Academy.
(15) In this section “test and trace services” means—
(a) in relation to England, services of the programme known as NHS Test and Trace;
(b) in relation to Wales, services of the programme known as Test, Trace, Protect.”
(3) After section 60 insert—
“60A Duration of expedited orders
(1) An expedited order may not have effect for a period of more than 6 months.
(2) Subject to subsection (1), the local authority that made an expedited order may, before the time when the order is due to expire, extend the period for which the order has effect if satisfied on reasonable grounds that doing so is necessary to prevent—
(a) occurrence or recurrence after that time of the activities identified in the order, or
(b) an increase in the frequency or seriousness of those activities after that time.
(3) Where a local authority has made an expedited order, the authority may, at any time before the order is due to expire, reduce the period for which the order is to have effect if satisfied on reasonable grounds that the reduced period will be sufficient having regard to the degree of risk of an occurrence, recurrence or increase such as is mentioned in subsection (2)(a) or (b).
(4) An extension or reduction under this section of the period for which an order has effect must be published in accordance with regulations made by the Secretary of State.
(5) An expedited order may be extended or reduced under this section more than once.”
(4) After section 72 insert—
“72A Expedited orders: Convention rights and consents
(1) A local authority, in deciding—
(a) whether to make an expedited order (under section 59A) and if so what it should include,
(b) whether to extend or reduce the period for which an expedited order has effect (under section 60A) and if so by how much,
(c) whether to vary an expedited order (under section 61) and if so how, or
(d) whether to discharge an expedited order (under section 61), must have particular regard to the rights of freedom of expression and freedom of assembly set out in articles 10 and 11 of the Convention.
(2) In subsection (1) “Convention” has the meaning given by section 21(1) of the Human Rights Act 1998.
(3) A local authority must obtain the necessary consents before—
(a) making an expedited order,
(b) extending or reducing the period for which an expedited order has effect, or
(c) varying or discharging an expedited order.
(4) If the order referred to in subsection (3) was made, or is proposed to be made, in reliance on section 59A(2)(a), “the necessary consents” means the consent of—
(a) the chief officer of police for the police area that includes the restricted area, and
(b) a person authorised (whether in specific or general terms) by the appropriate authority for the school or 16 to 19 Academy.
(5) If the order referred to in subsection (3) was made, or is proposed to be made, in reliance on section 59A(2)(b), “the necessary consents” means the consent of—
(a) the chief officer of police for the police area that includes the restricted area, and
(b) a person authorised by the appropriate NHS authority.
(6) In this section—
“appropriate authority” means—
(a) in relation to a school maintained by a local authority, the governing body;
(b) in relation to any other school or a 16 to 19 Academy, the proprietor;
“appropriate NHS authority” means—
(a) if the order was made, or is proposed to be made, in reliance on sub-paragraph (i) of section 59A(2)(b), the NHS body mentioned in that sub-paragraph;
(b) if the order was made, or is proposed to be made, in reliance on sub-paragraph (ii) of section 59A(2)(b) and the site is in England, the UK Health Security Agency;
(c) if the order was made, or is proposed to be made, in reliance on that sub-paragraph and the site is in Wales, the Local Health Board for the area in which the site is located.
(7) In this section “proprietor”, in relation to a school or a 16 to 19 Academy, has the meaning given in section 579(1) of the Education Act 1996.
72B Consultation and notifications after making expedited order
(1) A local authority must carry out the necessary consultation as soon as reasonably practicable after making an expedited order.
(2) In subsection (1) “necessary consultation” means consulting with the following about the terms and effects of the order—
(a) the chief officer of police, and the local policing body, for the police area that includes the restricted area;
(b) whatever community representatives the local authority thinks it appropriate to consult;
(c) the owner or occupier of land within the restricted area.
(3) A local authority must carry out the necessary notification (if any) as soon as reasonably practicable after—
(a) making an expedited order,
(b) extending or reducing the period for which an expedited order has effect, or
(c) varying or discharging an expedited order.
(4) In subsection (3) “necessary notification” means notifying the following of the extension, reduction, variation or discharge—
(a) the parish council or community council (if any) for the area that includes the restricted area;
(b) in the case of an expedited order made by a district council in England, the county council (if any) for the area that includes the restricted area;
(c) the owner or occupier of land within the restricted area.
(5) The requirement to notify the owner or occupier of land within the restricted area—
(a) does not apply to land that is owned or occupied by the local authority;
(b) applies only if, and to the extent that, it is reasonably practicable to notify the owner or occupier of the land.”
(5) Schedule (Expedited public spaces protection orders) contains amendments relating to subsections (1) to (4).”
143B: Page 220, line 15, at end insert the following new Schedule—
“SCHEDULE
EXPEDITED PUBLIC SPACES PROTECTION ORDERS
1 The Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014 is amended as follows.
2 In the heading of Chapter 2 of Part 4, at the end insert “and expedited orders”.
3 In the italic heading before section 59, at the end insert “and expedited orders”.
4 In the heading of section 59 (power to make orders), before “orders” insert “public spaces protection”.
5 In the heading of section 60 (duration of orders), after “of” insert “public spaces protection”.
6 (1) Section 61 (variation and discharge of orders) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (1), in the words before paragraph (a), after “protection order” insert “or expedited order”.
(3) In subsection (2), for “make a variation under subsection (1)(a)” substitute “under subsection (1)(a) make a variation to a public spaces protection order”.
(4) After subsection (2) insert—
“(2A) A local authority may under subsection (1)(a) make a variation to an expedited order that results in the order applying to an area to which it did not previously apply only if the conditions in section
59A(2) to (4) are met as regards that area.”
(5) In subsection (3), after “59(5)” insert “or 59A(6) (as the case may be)”.
(6) In subsection (4), after “order” insert “or expedited order”.
7 (1) Section 62 (premises etc to which alcohol prohibition does not apply) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (1), in the words before paragraph (a), after “order” insert “or expedited order”.
(3) In subsection (2), in the words before paragraph (a), after “order” insert “or an expedited order”.
8 In section 63 (consumption of alcohol in breach of prohibition order), in subsection (1)—
(a) in paragraph (a), after “order” insert “or an expedited order”;
(b) in the words after paragraph (b) omit “public spaces protection”.
9 (1) Section 64 (orders restricting public right of way over highway) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (1), in the words before paragraph (a), after “order” insert “or expedited order”.
(3) After subsection (1) insert—
“(1A) Before making a public spaces protection order that restricts the public right of way over a highway, a local authority must take the prior consultation steps (see subsection (2)).
(1B) A local authority may not make an expedited order that restricts the public right of way over a highway unless it—
(a) takes the prior consultation steps before making the order, or
(b) takes the subsequent consultation steps (see subsection (2A)) as soon as reasonably practicable after making the order.”
(4) In subsection (2), for the words from “Before” to “must” substitute “To take the “prior consultation steps” in relation to an order means to”.
(5) After subsection (2) insert—
“(2A) To take the “subsequent consultation steps” in relation to an expedited order means to—
(a) notify potentially affected persons of the order,
(b) invite those persons to make representations within a specified period about the terms and effects of the order,
(c) inform those persons how they can see a copy of the order, and
(d) consider any representations made.
The definition of “potentially affected persons” in subsection (2) applies to this subsection as if the reference there to “the proposed order” were to “the order”.”
(6) After subsection (3) insert—
“(3B) Where a local authority proposes to make an expedited order restricting the public right of way over a highway that is also within the area of another local authority it must, if it thinks appropriate to do so, consult that other authority before, or as soon as reasonably practicable after, making the order.”
(7) In subsections (4), (5), (6), (7) and (8), after “order” insert “or expedited order”.
10 In section 65 (categories of highway over which public right of way may not be restricted), in subsection (1), in the words before paragraph (a), after “order” insert “or an expedited order”.
11 (1) Section 66 (challenging validity of orders) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsections (1) and (6), after “public spaces protection order”, in each place it occurs, insert “or an expedited order”.
(3) In subsection (7), in the words before paragraph (a)—
(a) after “order”, in the first place it occurs, insert “or an expedited order”;
(b) for “a public spaces protection”, in the second place it occurs, substitute “such an”.
12 (1) Section 67 (offence of failing to comply with order) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsections (1) and (4), after “order”, in each place it occurs, insert “or an expedited order”.
(3) In subsection (3), after “order” insert “or expedited order”.
13 (1) Section 68 (fixed penalty notices) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (1), at the end insert “or an expedited order”.
(3) In subsection (3), at the end insert “or expedited order”.
14 In section 70 (byelaws), after “protection order” insert “or an expedited order”.
15 (1) Section 71 (bodies other than local authorities with statutory functions in relation to land) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsections (3) to (5), after “public spaces protection order”, in each place it occurs, insert “or an expedited order”.
(3) In subsection (6)—
(a) in paragraph (a), after “order” insert “or expedited order”;
(b) in paragraph (b)(i), after “order” insert “, or an expedited order,”.
16 In the heading of section 72 (Convention rights, consultation, publicity and notification), at the beginning insert “Public spaces protection orders:”
17 (1) Section 74 (interpretation of Chapter 2 of Part 4) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (1)—
(a) at the appropriate places insert—
““16 to 19 Academy” has the meaning given by section 1B of the Academies Act 2010;”;
““expedited order” has the meaning given by section 59A(1);”;
““Local Health Board” means a Local Health Board established under section 11 of the National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006;”;
““NHS body” has the meaning given in section 275 of the National Health Service Act 2006;”;
““school” has the meaning given by section 4 of the
Education Act 1996.”;
(b) for the definition of “restricted area” substitute—
““restricted area”—
(a) in relation to a public spaces protection order, has the meaning given by section 59(4);
(b) in relation to an expedited order, has the meaning given by section 59A(5).”
(3) After subsection (2) insert—
“(3) For the purposes of this Chapter, an expedited order “regulates” an activity if the activity is—
(a) prohibited by virtue of section 59A(5)(a), or
(b) subjected to requirements by virtue of section 59A(5)(b), whether or not for all persons and at all times.””
143C: Page 195, line 27, at end insert—
“(ka) section (Expedited public spaces protection orders) for the purposes of making regulations;”
Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill
Baroness Williams of Trafford ExcerptsTuesday 22nd March 2022
(2 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 View all Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 123-I Marshalled list for Consideration of Commons Reasons and Amendments - (21 Mar 2022)
Baroness Williams of Trafford
That this House do not insist on its Amendment 70 and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 70A and 70B in lieu.
“Administering a substance with intent to cause harm
(1) The Secretary of State must, before the end of the relevant period—
(a) prepare and publish a report—
(i) about the nature and prevalence of the conduct described in subsection (2), and
(ii) setting out any steps Her Majesty’s Government has taken or intends to take in relation to the matters referred to in sub-paragraph (i), and
(b) lay the report before Parliament.
(2) The conduct referred to in subsection (1)(a)(i) is a person intentionally administering a substance to, or causing a substance to be taken by, another person—
(a) without the consent of that other person, and
(b) with the intention of causing harm (whether or not amounting to an offence) to that other person.
(3) In subsection (1), the “relevant period” means the period of 12 months beginning with the day on which this Act is passed.”
“(ka) section (Administering a substance with intent to cause harm);”
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, in moving Motion B, with the leave of the House, I will also speak to Motion M. Amendment 70, originally tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, and passed by this House on Report, would require the Secretary of State to
“establish a review into the prevalence of, and the response of the criminal justice system to, the offence of administering a substance with intent under section 61 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003”.
As I have made clear previously, the Government share that concern about spiking, whether it is spiking of drinks or by needles, which has prompted this amendment and we are taking the issue very seriously.
In September last year, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary asked the National Police Chiefs’ Council to review urgently the extent and scale of the issue of needle spiking. We still have much to learn, as the noble Lord acknowledged at the time, but it is clear from what the police have told us that the behaviour is not exclusively carried out with the intention of perpetrating a sexual assault. Sometimes, financial crime might be a motivation. Indeed, many reported incidents do not appear to be linked to any secondary offending at all. It seems that sometimes the act might be an end in itself, yet all examples of this behaviour are serious in their impact on the victim and in the fear and anxiety felt more widely by those seeking simply to enjoy a night out.
It is also clear that we need a response that goes beyond the criminal justice system and encompasses health, education and the night-time economy. In the Commons, therefore, the Government tabled Amendment 70A in lieu, which is drafted more broadly. It requires the Home Secretary to prepare a report on the nature and prevalence of “spiking”—which, for these purposes, we are defining as
“intentionally administering a substance to someone without their consent and with the intention of causing them harm.”
The report will also set out the steps that the Government have taken or intend to take to address it. The Home Secretary will be required to publish the report, and lay it before Parliament, within 12 months of Royal Assent.
I hope that this addresses the concerns that underpinned the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, but in a way that enables the Government to consider the issue in the round. In addition, the Government are looking at whether creating a new offence specifically of spiking would help the police and courts to tackle the issue. If we need to take action to do this, we will not hesitate to do so.
Amendments 141 and 142 provide for bespoke new offences to tackle so-called sex for rent. We are very clear that exploitation through sex for rent has no place in society and we understand the motivation behind the amendments. However, as I previously explained, there are two existing offences in the Sexual Offences Act 2003 that can be, and have been, used to successfully prosecute this practice, including the Section 52 offence of causing or inciting prostitution for gain. We recognise the need to stamp out this terrible practice and support those at risk of exploitation. Again, on Report I set out some of the actions that we have already taken, including producing updated guidance for prosecutors and measures in the forthcoming online safety Bill to tackle harmful content on the internet.
We recognise that we need to go further. We are determined to act on the concerns that have been raised on this issue, both in your Lordships’ House and in the other place. Accordingly, we will launch a public consultation before the summer to invite views on the issue of sex for rent and, as part of this, we will look at the effectiveness of existing legislation and whether there is a case for a bespoke criminal offence. Following our commitment to undertake a consultation on this issue, the Commons disagreed with the Lords amendment by a majority of over 100.
All sides of the House share the heartfelt desire of the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, to do more to tackle spiking and sex for rent. We are fully committed to doing so. We will publish a report on the nature and prevalence of spiking and the actions that we are taking in response, including consideration of the case for a bespoke offence, and we will be consulting before the summer on the issue of sex for rent. In the light of these clear commitments, I invite the House to agree Motions B and M. I beg to move.
Lord Paddick (LD)
My Lords, the amendments in this group were introduced by the Official Opposition and we supported them. We welcome the Government’s undertakings in Amendment 70A in Motion B to prepare and publish a report on spiking, for example of drinks, intentionally and without a person’s consent and with the intention of causing harm, so as to establish the extent of the problem and therefore to inform what measures need to be taken to address it.
We also welcome the Government’s commitment to undertake a consultation on whether the existing law in respect of requiring or arranging sexual relations as a condition of accommodation—so-called sex for rent—needs to be strengthened. The prevalence of the phenomenon and the lack of prosecutions under the Sexual Offences Act 2003, which the Government believe covers these scenarios, indicate that such action is likely to be necessary. We are grateful to the Official Opposition, particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, for raising these important issues and securing government action to address them.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
My Lords, I open by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, for the way in which she introduced the two government Motions.
First, on Lords Amendment 70 in my name and the Government’s Amendment 70A, it is fair to say that the Government’s response goes wider than my original amendment. That is a good thing. It is indeed true that the Government are considering the issue in the round. Sexual motivation is not the only reason why people are spiked through their drinks or through needles; there may be any number of motivations for people doing it, so it is reasonable to look at this matter in the round and that is what the Government are proposing to do through their amendment. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, for his support on this matter.
Moving on to sex for rent, I pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Kennedy, who has played a leading role in this House in promoting Amendments 141 and 142. She showed her knowledge in this area in the questions that she put to the Minister about how this matter will be taken forward regarding the online safety Bill. She put some pertinent questions and I hope that I can be copied in on the answers regarding the timetable and whether particular aspects of the DCMS Bill will address the sex-for-rent issue.
The further concession, if I can use that word, which the Minister has made is that there will be a public consultation, which will launch by the Summer Recess. Of course that is welcome but, as she fairly pointed out, there are a number of elements to this. It is not an issue for one department or one that is easy to solve. Indeed, it is not easy to quantify, although there is no shortage of horrific examples that one can see online on any number of websites where people seek sex-for-rent arrangements.
I thank the Minister for the way she introduced the Government’s Motions. We will support them if they are put to a vote.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I thank the noble Lords, Lord Ponsonby and Lord Paddick, for their very constructive comments, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of Cradley, for her always very constructive approach in bringing these matters forward.
The point about someone having to identify as a prostitute is a really serious matter. I say again that anyone who makes a report to the police would benefit from the anonymity provisions in the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 1992. The Section 52 offence applies when an identified victim has been caused to engage in prostitution or incited to do so, whether the prostitution takes place or not. The Section 53 offence applies where a victim has on one or more occasions provide sexual services to another person in return for financial gain.
The consultation on this will be before the Summer Recess. We will write about the terms of reference once they are settled. The consultation will be confined to the case for a bespoke new offence.
On the online safety Bill and where it meets what we have been talking about, the legislation will define the harmful content and the activity covered by the duty of care. This includes illegal content and activity, harms for children and legal but harmful content, and activity for adults. The relevant offences, which are Sections 52 and 53 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, have been included in that list of priority illegal harms in the Bill, demonstrating the importance that the Government attach to the tackling of these harms.
I hope that answers the noble Lords’ questions. Again, I thank them for their constructive work on this.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
Moved by
That this House do not insist on its Amendment 72, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 72A.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, for seeking to move the debate forward by tabling an amendment in lieu. Before I turn to the specifics of his Amendment 72B, I will say something about the wider context. The Government take the issue of violence against women and girls very seriously. The last couple of years has, sadly, seen some terrible incidents and I do not think that anyone could doubt that there is more to do.
The Government have ambitious plans in this area. We have debated them often enough in your Lordships’ House, such that I do not need to set out again everything that the Government are doing to tackle violence against women and girls, but I reiterate that this is an absolute priority for the Government. Although we might disagree on the best approach, all of us, and Members in the other place, are on the same side. All of us share the same absolute determination to do our very best to tackle these awful crimes.
I am glad that in tabling this amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, is not pressing to add the characteristics of sex or gender to hate crime laws, making misogyny a hate crime, as it is colloquially known. I do not decry the motives of anyone who advocated that course of action but, as the Law Commission identified in its review examining the question of whether to add sex or gender to hate crime laws, this amendment is not the right course of action.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, that this has been a very interesting debate. Part of what has been interesting for me is hearing the differing views on misogyny across the House. This goes to the heart of the difficulties of this issue. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, asked if my noble friend Lord Wolfson was making prestigious notes. I wondered if he was making prodigious notes, but they might be both prestigious and prodigious—I do not know.
I thank all noble Lords who have taken part. I will restate three important points that I made in my opening remarks, as well as make some further points that were asked about. First, we are still pursuing the commitment that we previously made on data recording. I quote the comments that I made this time last year:
“I advise the House that, on an experimental basis, we will ask”—
not mandate, but ask—
“police forces to identify and record any crimes of violence against the person, including stalking and harassment, as well as sexual offences where the victim perceives it to have been motivated by a hostility based on their sex. As I have said, this can then inform longer-term decisions once we have considered the recommendations made by the Law Commission. We will shortly begin the consultation with the National Police Chiefs’ Council and forces on this with a view to commencing the experimental collection of data from this autumn.”—[Official Report, 17/3/21; col. 371.]
As the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, pointed out, that was autumn 2021. I have absolutely voiced my disappointment on that. I am pleased that the wheels are in motion, albeit moving more slowly than I had hoped. We are making some progress.
The second point is that, before the Summer Recess, we will launch the public consultation on a new offence of public sexual harassment. I think that that reinforces the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox.
Thirdly, the Law Commission, having studied this issue and a variety of possible solutions, recommended against making misogyny a hate crime. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, for her points. I know that that is a source of regret for some noble Lords, but we cannot ignore the firm advice of experts that legislating in this way could do more harm to women than good. No one wants that outcome.
The noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, made an interesting point about Cara McGoogan’s article in the Daily Telegraph. The points that he raised about racism, misogyny and domestic violence within the police are being looked at by the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, and Dame Elish Angiolini. I know that we will get on to Child Q this afternoon when I repeat the Urgent Question. It is not a point that I dismiss at all; we all have to get to grips with the culture of the police.
The noble Baronesses, Lady Fox and Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, talked in different ways about the internet translating into real life. Obviously the online harms Bill is coming up. I do not want to give a complete prequel to that, but in that Bill we will need to consider the balance between free speech and protecting our children, women and girls. The noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, referred to this and, as a parent, I am glad that my children had grown up by the time these problems began to surface, but I worry for the children, women and girls of the future.
To conclude, we are continuing to explore all options to tackle violence against women and girls and we are taking forward real change to achieve that. I invite the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment and I commend Motion D to the House.
Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)
My Lords, this has been an interesting 55 minutes or so. We always seem to be at our finest when we discuss problems that a lot of people seem to agree are insoluble, which is disappointing in a way. It would be nice to talk about problems that are solvable.
I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken and to the three men who managed to stand up. Essentially, to some extent I apologise, as I feel I must, on behalf of many of my sex. The attitudes of an awful lot of males are a concern and are shaming. Unless more of us stand up and talk about it, it probably will not go away.
The noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, is a pioneer in this area. I again recommend that all noble Lords read her report. When I started reading the preface, I realised that I was reading a report unlike most others I have read—and, in talking to her before we came in this morning, I discovered why: the noble Baroness wrote it herself and that does show. It is cogent, it is spirited, it is clear in its intent and it communicates brilliantly. So I recommend that more Ministers and noble Lords, when they put their names to a report, should write the preface themselves rather than get somebody else to do it. The noble Baroness’s point that what she is trying to do in her report is focus on egregious, unpleasant, aggressive and harmful actions, not thoughts, is also really important. We all think things that perhaps we should not from time to time. Mercifully, most of us do not act on them—or, if you get to my age, you probably forget them. At my age, the most important thing is to learn new things more quickly than you forget old things.
I take the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, about women’s freedom. But to suggest in some way that what we propose is potentially to label all men as misogynistic—and to send a message to all women that all men are basically misogynistic—is perhaps, might I suggest, slightly decrying the intelligence and perspicacity of members of the female sex to work out for themselves when something is genuinely misogynistic in a very unpleasant way and when it is less harmful. The noble Baroness is particularly skilled at talking about absolutes and problems. It would be great if we could move on and perhaps focus more on solutions than on the problems that are in the way of trying to find solutions.
My noble friend Lady D’Souza made an excellent point. We need to be careful that the law of unintended consequences does not lead us, in a sense, to suppress when what we are trying to do is liberate. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, that if she sees that taxi driver again I am sure she will give him a piece of her mind—or will change her accent to talk a bit more like me, so he will think that she is even posher than she really is.
I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Bertin, that it is always good to hear from the Government Back Benches. She made the good point that if you make a commitment, you should be able to keep it. The Minister has been frank and honest about some of the problems the Government have encountered, but I come back to the point I made earlier: this should and would have been foreseeable if they had done the proper analysis much earlier of what was implied by the commitment they were making.
The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, is far more skilled in these details than I am, and in particular on the law of unintended consequences in how one puts laws together and applies them. He makes a very good point but, again, there is the incredible importance of recording misogynistic data, so we actually know what we are talking about instead of just guessing.
The noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, shared his direct experience as a magistrate and it was very compelling. If it is racially motivated, you have to fess up and say that up front, but if it is equally or more egregious, you do not have to. The fact that it is optional tells you that we are barking slightly up the wrong tree.
Finally, I turn to the noble Baroness’s contribution. What is so frustrating is that we spend so much time talking about all the problems that get in the way of trying to do something about this. We do not hear very much about prospective solutions. To some extent that is what Kit Malthouse invited us to do and committed the Government to doing—trying to find solutions.
On the point about asking police forces to comply with this rather than mandating them, I disagree with asking them. I actually think that we should mandate. Police chiefs are used to having a variety of things mandated by the Home Office, so would not be surprised or shocked. They might not particularly like it if the Home Office did so in this case, but I would strongly encourage the Government to think about doing that.
It is worth reading Hansard to see what happened when the Commons was considering our amendments. The vast majority of time in the early part of that debate was spent on the Newlove amendment, with speakers from all sides of the House, including a considerable number of Conservative Back-Benchers, particularly women. There was also a prominent man, the ex-Secretary of State for Justice, Robert Buckland. He has been intimately involved in helping to develop this amendment. I have also involved the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, in thinking through the validity and force of what we are talking about.
There is a growing concern and voice in another place that we need to stop talking about problems; we need to commit to doing solutions. So, for the reason that I feel that the soles of the feet of Kit Malthouse deserve to be subjected to a rather higher temperature than I think he feels at the moment, I would like to test the opinion of the House.
Nationality and Borders Bill
Baroness Williams of Trafford ExcerptsMonday 14th March 2022
(2 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Nationality and Borders Act 2022 View all Nationality and Borders Act 2022 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 127-I Marshalled list for Third Reading - (11 Mar 2022)
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, before we move on, I will make some remarks about devolution and this Bill. I begin by placing on record my thanks to the devolved Administrations for their engagement at both official and ministerial level.
The majority of the Bill’s provisions apply across the UK. Some clauses extend only to England and Wales because the relevant policy areas relate to matters that are devolved in Scotland and Northern Ireland. These are: civil legal services; arrangements for prisoners who are liable to removal from the United Kingdom; and some specific measures relating to support for potential victims of modern slavery.
I want to be clear that, in the view of the UK Government, the provisions of the Bill that have UK-wide application relate strictly to reserved matters. This means that none of the Bill’s provisions engage the legislative consent process. We have therefore not sought legislative consent from the devolved legislatures.
I advise your Lordships’ House that the Scottish Parliament has approved a Motion, lodged by the Scottish Government, to withhold legislative consent in respect of specific measures relating to age assessment and modern slavery. But it is the view of the UK Government that these measures relate strictly to reserved matters and therefore did not engage the legislative consent Motion process and do not require legislative consent.
The Senedd Cymru has also approved a Motion, lodged by the Welsh Government, to withhold legislative consent in respect of specific measures relating to age assessment and to powers to make consequential provisions. Again, in the view of the UK Government, these measures relate to reserved matters and therefore did not engage the legislative consent Motion process and do not require legislative consent.
For the sake of completeness, I will say that the Northern Ireland Executive has not lodged a Motion relating to the Bill in the Northern Ireland Assembly.
We look forward to continued engagement with the devolved Administrations as we move to operationalise the Bill and the wider new plan for immigration.
Clause 44: Illegal entry and similar offences
Amendment 1
The Lord Bishop of Durham
My Lords, I support all the amendments because they all seem to make complete sense in terms of tidying up, including those in the Government’s name. I too was disturbed by the announcement about the devolved legislatures—it expresses the deep unease about the Bill out in the country as a whole. I ask the Minister to take away from this House a real concern that this is not the right time to press ahead and that Ukraine has raised questions about the Bill and whether some kind of pause ought to be considered.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for outlining his points. I will start with the government amendments, which are two tidying-up amendments for consideration by your Lordships’ House. The first is a minor drafting amendment to Clause 47, which relates to working in United Kingdom waters. The amendment removes a definition of the term “United Kingdom waters” from the clause. This definition is superfluous as the term is not actually used in the Bill. The amendment therefore helps to clarify Clause 47, so I commend it to your Lordships’ House.
The second amendment is necessary to resolve a problem that has arisen in connection with Schedule 2 to the Bill. This schedule relates to deprivation of citizenship. Its inclusion in the Bill was agreed when noble Lords voted to accept amendments on this topic moved on Report by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich. The problem obviously arises because after agreeing the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, your Lordships’ House then voted to remove the substantive deprivation of citizenship clause from the Bill. In consequence, the noble Lord’s amendments were also removed and the schedule was left as an orphan, with no clause to establish it as part of the Bill. I have therefore given notice of my intention to oppose the question that Schedule 2 be the second schedule to the Bill, to ensure that the Bill is consistent.
I also note the 11 tidying-up amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and my noble friends Lord McColl of Dulwich and Lady Stroud. The Government will not oppose these amendments, but we will doubtless return to consider both them and the substantive clauses they amend at ping-pong. May I just say something about my noble friend Lord McColl? I had noticed that he did not seem very well recently, and I am sure the whole House will join me in wishing him a speedy recovery.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
On the question from the noble Lord, Lord Alton, about a modern slavery Bill, I say: as soon as parliamentary time allows. I cannot give an exact date to the noble Lord. As for guidance being available before ping-pong, I will certainly let him know the intended timetable for the guidance.
On the point about the LCM for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, the provisions of the Bill that have Ukraine-wide application are strictly reserved matters but I say to noble Lords that officials will continue to engage on the specifics of operationalisation.
Member’s explanatory statement
This is a minor drafting amendment to remove a definition of a term not used in inserted section 11B of the Immigration Act 1971.
Member’s explanatory statement
Schedule 2 was inserted by amendment at Report Stage, but was introduced by what was then Clause 9, which was then removed from the Bill. The Schedule now has nothing in the Bill to introduce it, and the provisions in it are wholly dependent on the amendments to the British Nationality Act 1981 that were made by Clause 9: it does not make sense on its own.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, if I may, I will just detain the House a little longer to mark the end of this Bill’s passage through your Lordships’ House. It has been very wide-ranging. It has had five thorough days in Committee and three days on Report. During this time, in response to the terrible situation in Ukraine, we have added important measures to the Bill which introduce new visa penalty provisions for countries posing a risk to international peace and security. I was very pleased to see support for these measures across the House.
I was not so pleased, though, by the removal of some important measures, the aim of which was to find a long-term solution to long-term problems in our asylum and illegal migration systems which successive Governments have faced over decades. Those amendments will now be considered in the other place and no doubt we will debate them soon.
Notwithstanding that, I want to take this opportunity to recognise the contributions of those who have supported me in steering the Bill through the House. In particular, I thank my noble and learned friend Lord Stewart of Dirleton, my noble friend Lord Wolfson of Tredegar and my commendable noble friend Lord Sharpe of Epsom for sharing the load from the Front Bench.
I also express my thanks to all noble Lords who stayed up very late on a number of occasions and thank Members on the Front Bench opposite for their engagement on the Bill, accepting that there have been some areas of disagreement between us. I thank in particular—because I cannot thank everyone—the noble Lords, Lord Coaker, Lord Rosser, Lord Paddick and Lord Anderson of Ipswich, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee.
I also extend my thanks to officials at the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice, as well as lawyers and analysts, not only in those two departments but across government. On my behalf and my ministerial colleagues’, I extend our thanks and appreciation to all of them for their professionalism over the past months. I also thank the teams in our respective private offices.
There should be no doubt about the merits of the Bill’s ultimate objectives, namely to increase the fairness and efficacy of our system, to deter illegal entry into the UK and to remove more easily from the UK those with no right to be here. That is what the British people voted for, it is what the British people expect and it is what the Government are trying and determined to deliver. In view of the crises now confronting our world, it is surely now more important than ever that the Bill moves swiftly to become law. On that note, I beg to move that the Bill do now pass.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
I will not detain the House for long but I think that I ought to say a few words; first, to thank the Minister, in particular, for the number of meetings that I know she has held—I suspect that she has lost count—and her willingness to respond in writing and in some detail on issues that have been raised, which is certainly appreciated. I also thank the noble Lords, Lord Wolfson of Tredegar and Lord Sharpe of Epsom. I will not comment too much about people who stayed late since I probably fell rather short in that regard myself. Some of us made sure we left in time to get last trains, but not everybody did.