Live Debate: Lords Chamber

Lords Chamber

Thursday 13th November 2025

(began 2 hours, 11 minutes ago)

11:06

Oral questions: Effectiveness of learning disabilities mortality review (LeDeR) reports in improving life outcomes Lord Scriven (Liberal Democrat)

This This is.

11:06

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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The first oral question.

11:07

Oral questions: Effectiveness of learning disabilities mortality review (LeDeR) reports in improving life outcomes Lord Scriven (Liberal Democrat)

Lord Scriven I beg leave to ask the question standing on in my name on the Order Paper.

11:07

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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My Lords, we are committed to reducing the health inequalities faced by people with a learning disability and autistic people through our ten year health plan. We are working to improve access to and quality of care, delivering holistic, place based support. Leader annual reports support this aim by compiling insights from local reviews into the deaths of people with a learning disability and autistic people. These insights help icbs and providers make improvements to care. improvements to care.

11:07

Lord Scriven (Liberal Democrat)

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As the noble Lady will know, the Learning Disabilities Mortality Review was commissioned a decade ago. Yet people with learning disabilities still die more than 20 years younger than the general population, and 42% of those deaths are avoidable, twice the rate of the general population, which is evident that the LeDeR process is not creating the systematic changes required. So with that in mind, will the noble Lady, the Minister, commit to meet with me and a small group of people to explore what new enforceable systems are required to end these tragic and unacceptable early deaths? Yes.

early deaths? Yes.

11:08

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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These are indeed tragic deaths and avoidable in a number of cases, as the noble Lord rightly says, I can do better than agree to meet him and his colleagues. But I have already got agreement from Minister Zubair Ahmed, who is responsible

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for this area, would be very pleased to meet. My thoughts. Would the

11:08

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (Crossbench)

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My thoughts. Would the government commit to working further with the National Mental further with the National Mental Capacity Forum? Because one of the leads that comes out in this report is a failure to implement adequately, particularly the giving of support to people and parents are often very important in providing support to a person with learning difficulties. But they can find that when that that person is adult, that they feel excluded, and they are often very worried as to what's going to happen after they've died and the person remains alive.

11:09

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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I do understand the point that the noble Lady makes, and it is quite right, and we will continue to take account and work to support both, both parents and those who they care for in the way she describes. And certainly I would also discuss with the Minister about continuing the work with the organisation she refers to.

11:09

Lord Addington (Liberal Democrat)

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With the Minister to slightly widen the question. Look at the fact that anybody who has a communication problem has historically had very bad results from when dealing by compared to the rest of population. When dealing with the National Health Service. Those who have got hearing impairment, it would be a classic example. Will they have a good look across the whole spectrum of those will have some form of communication difficulty and try and get medicals. Those medical professionals briefed in different forms of communication for that very important interview.

11:10

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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Again, I can certainly accept the important points that the noble Lord is making. It is unacceptable that there are health inequalities and there are poorer life outcomes, and indeed action could be taken. But that's why a ten year health plan does recognise these inequalities and identifies, particularly those with disabilities, as a priority group for more of that holistic, ongoing support. And key to that will be the development of neighbourhood services, where groups such as this, as I say, will be prioritised.

11:10

Lord Kamall (Conservative)

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My Lords, can I begin by thanking the noble Lord Lord Scriven for shining a light on this really important issue, and also for repeating the the stat that people with learning disabilities and autism in England die almost 20 years younger than the rest of the population, and that in itself is shocking. Whatever your views, the charity Mencap have cited a number of barriers which are stopping people with learning disabilities from getting good quality health care. These include failures to recognise that a person with a learning disability is unwell, but also staff having little understanding about learning disabilities in themselves.

So can the noble Lady, the Minister. Update the House on what specific steps the government is taking and with which partners it is speaking. In order to address these concerns?

11:11

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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Well, it bears repeating that it is shocking that people are dying an average of some up to 20 years earlier and as I've said, is unacceptable. We do work very closely with Mencap and other organisations, but I can say on what the what we're doing already is, for example, to the point that the noble Lord has raised that we are improving identification of people with a learning disability on GP registers and in particular, a reasonable adjustment. Digital flag is being implemented in care records to make sure that support is appropriately tailored.

In other words, if we don't know who people are and where they are, we can't be providing the support. And that is an unacceptable reason.

11:12

The Lord Bishop of London (Bishops)

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My noble friend.

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That's right. My Lord. Thank you for giving

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My Lord. Thank you for giving way. My Lords, according to the Learning Disabilities Mortality Review of. Adults with a learning Review of. Adults with a learning disability who died in 2023, 25.6% had a care package that did not had a care package that did not meet their needs. We know that local authorities continue to face significant challenges to providing significant challenges to providing adult social care services. I wonder whether the noble Baroness, the Minister, could say, what the Minister, could say, what action is the government taking to support local authorities as they support local authorities as they respond to more complex needs to make sure that every person, including those with learning disabilities, has the correct care

11:13

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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plan? Well, as the Right Reverend

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Well, as the Right Reverend prelate says, or the Right Reverend prelate says, or the Right Reverend Primate. Really? The noble Lady. I'm sure all this will be clarified, but I'm delighted to change my reference. Indeed, this is extremely important. That's why we've we've got a learning disability improvement standard to support NHS trusts. Why each ICB has an executive leader on learning disability and autism and why, amongst other things, we're rolling out the Oliver McGowan mandatory autism.

11:14

Lord Blunkett (Labour)

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My Lord, I wasn't sure who I was giving way to, but I'm glad God's on my side. I, I would ask my noble friend whether she agrees that as part of that neighbourhood approach, two things should happen. Firstly, joined up services, including good training for support workers where supported housing is concerned, and secondly, the major changes in abolishing NHS England should retain services at place level rather than the bureaucrats overseeing them. Yeah.

11:14

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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I do agree with the points, my noble friend, and indeed local provision is the responsibility of local trusts. But what I would assure my noble friend, is what a huge part of our work is about improving care pathways and seeing people as a whole person. Part of the the the failing I think previously has been not to see those with learning disability and or autism as whole people with a range of needs just like anyone else, but they are specific to them and certainly moving from hospital to community under the ten year plan will be a great assistance to that.

that.

11:15

Lord Sterling of Plaistow (Conservative)

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My Lords, everybody knows that. I know, Minister, this is very dear to her heart, this subject. But for my own experience over many years, it's the workforce themselves that get very nervous of having disabled people working with them. So employers, they will support other people's support. But it's the actual employees themselves have to feel comfortable to have disabled people working alongside. Is that something you can do something about?

11:15

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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I've just had a word with the Minister for DWP who has confirmed, and this is this is I'm sure the noble Lord will welcome this, who makes very good points and I'm glad he does. So confirm that the DWP are working with employers on this. But I can also say within the staff. Within within staff generally, as I mentioned, over 3 million people have completed the first part of the Oliver McGowan mandatory training, which is the government's preferred package.

And that training I am sure is and I know is making a considerable difference. To meet the point, the noble Lord raises.

11:16

Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie (Conservative)

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One of the problems that the Minister has talked about in developing pathways is identification and data sharing. So could she be specific about what improvements are being made within the ten year plan to ensure that that people with various learning disabilities, I mean, it's a huge umbrella term, are better identified and that that identification is shared across different different health and care services.

11:17

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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Well, first of all, the learning Disability Improvement standard does support trusts in setting out the guidance on Safe. And I emphasise personalised and high quality care provision as a general umbrella, but very specifically the reasonable adjustment digital flag is going on to care records which make sure that people are receiving the right tailored care and for example, by improving identification of those with the learning disability or GP registers, which I think is absolutely key. That does mean we are promoting a an uptake of annual health checks, which are absolutely vital for identifying undetected conditions early, which means there can be health action plans following these checks.

11:17

Oral questions: Assessment of the jobs market and the implications for the wider economy Lord Hunt of Wirral (Conservative)

Second oral question Lord Hunt of Wirral my Lords, I beg leave to ask the question. Standing in my name on the Order Paper. name on the Order Paper.

11:18

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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My Lords, despite Tuesday's unemployment figures, there is positive information in the labour market. However, the latest figures do show why we are right to focus on supporting people into work with our Get Britain working plan, which includes modernisation of jobcentres, tackling economic inactivity due to ill health and delivering our youth guarantee. delivering our youth guarantee.

11:18

Lord Hunt of Wirral (Conservative)

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My Lords, there are now nearly 2 million unemployed people on this government's watch and the number is rising month by month. Since the introduction of the Penal national insurance, job tax and now the threat of first day unfair dismissal, rights under the employment rights. Will will the noble Baroness, the Minister listen to business? Listen to the Resolution Foundation, listen to Tony Blair, listen to this House when it debates this issue on Monday, and will she undertake to persuade her colleagues that this budget has got to have measures which inspire business to give people the dignity of work? Otherwise, the message will be what I said in my maiden speech 50 years ago.

Labour isn't working. Yeah, it wasn't then and it isn't working now. Yes.

11:19

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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Well, my Lords, I regret I wasn't here to hear the noble Lords maiden speech 50 years ago. But but however, it's interesting isn't his message hasn't changed in the intervening 50 years. Let me give him a few thoughts. First, if he looks at what's happening underneath the employment figures and around the world, let me point a few things out to him. Over the last year, over 329,000 people have moved into work. In the first half of this year, the UK was the fastest growing economy in the G7.

Our employment rates. We have the third highest employment rate in the G7. It's above the G7 average. And my Lords, over the most recent quarter, the number of people claiming unemployment benefits actually fell by £35,000. Among those people in work are doing well. Then we're given one final stat. Since July 2020, for real, wages have risen more than they did in the first ten years of the previous government. I celebrate that.

11:20

Lord St John of Bletso (Crossbench)

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My Lord.

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The Minister, outline what assessment has been made of the assessment has been made of the dual impact of artificial intelligence on the UK job market,

11:20

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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both on the potential for job displacement in some sectors and the creation of new roles? And what is the government's strategy to manage to manage this transition

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and equip the British workforce with the skills to drive the new AI economy? Thank you.

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Thank you. And this is this is a really great question. It's a question that's obsessing both most government departments and most government departments and most employers at the moment. As as the noble Lord will know, I think the impact depends on on the sector and impact depends on on the sector and it depends on the individual job, but the evidence is quite clear, which is that across the piece, it which is that across the piece, it is definitely better for businesses to embrace AI than not to embrace AI.

The biggest risk to to our country is not embracing artificial intelligence. It's if we don't take the opportunities it offers. But the opportunities it offers. But what will happen. The World Economic Forum, for example, has forecast that AI will create 170 forecast that AI will create 170 million new jobs globally over the next five years and displaced 90 million. So what we will find is million. So what we will find is there will be jobs out there, but there will be different. And what we have to do in our country is we have to do in our country is make sure we get those good jobs in the UK.

So what we are doing as a government is analysing that very carefully and supporting businesses and individuals to make sure they have the skills they need to move on to the next area. So we've on to the next area. So we've reformed skills. We're bringing skills into DWP for many young people. We've got a brand new skills academy. We're looking at skills academy. We're looking at developing apprenticeships and also focusing on supporting education to give young people the skills they need. There will be jobs there in the future.

We just want to make sure our people get them.

11:22

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (Liberal Democrat)

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My Lords.

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Lib Dems, my Lords, I thank the noble. Lady, the Minister for her statistics. But the latest ONS figures show unemployment has risen from 4.8% to 5%, the highest level for four years. In that basis. for four years. In that basis. Could the noble Lady, the Minister, share concern that the UK's sluggish productivity, growth and sluggish productivity, growth and skill shortages are still holding back economic recovery? What further measures are being considered to invest, in particular in adult skills and retraining? We will keep coming back to this and I thank the noble Lady, the Minister.

11:23

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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thank the noble Lady, the Minister. What she said. But I'd like to a bit more information. Yeah, thanks.

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Could I just say to the to the noble Lord on the unemployment figures, different things are going on under the surface, as I'm sure if he's dug down into the figures, which I'm sure he has done, for example, he may be aware that two things are going on. One is that the on the quarter increases and on the unemployment level, a chunk of that has been driven by young people aged 16 to 24, including those in full time education. Crucially, falling in activity has actually contributed to increasing unemployment.

We're tackling people who are economically inactive, but as people return to the labour market, they move from the figures of economic inactivity into the figures for unemployment. And one of the things that has happened is that the the significant rise in economic inactivity down to health has actually been flattened, and that's really significant in terms of skills. I'd love to talk to him a greater length about this because as he now knows, I have the great joy is that my my noble friend Lady Smith, who is, is now a Minister not only in DfE but also in DWP because she's the Minister for skills.

We're joining up the two departments and the other one, the other. Sorry. Yes. Yeah I was I was going to say the less important but I'll get in trouble any which way I do this. But actually what we're what we're doing is joining up what we're doing with DfE to invest heavily in skills. We've got new qualifications coming online, new apprenticeships coming online investment and skills strategies. There's a huge amount going on, more than I can say at the Dispatch Box, but I'd love to talk to you Box, but I'd love to talk to you more about this.

11:24

Lord Woodley (Labour)

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My Lords, my Lords, my Lords, the government have given notice to stop the employee car leasing scheme in the in the British car industry. ICO's that will reduce production by at least 80,000 units and cost 5000 jobs. Does the Minister agree with me that it's time to re-evaluate this particular proposal? proposal?

11:24

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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I don't often say that, but I know absolutely nothing about that at all, so I will have to. I'll go back, take you back to my department, and somebody will write to the noble Lord.

11:24

Lord Bailey of Paddington (Conservative)

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Lord, my Lord, my Lord.

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There are 111,000 less young people employed than there were in the beginning of the year. With the the beginning of the year. With the rise in NI and the rise in minimum wage, many employers are saying they can't afford to to employ they can't afford to to employ young people. So what work is the government doing to make sure our young people have a future in

11:25

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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young people have a future in employment and not on welfare? I'm grateful for that question. I know there is something noble I know there is something noble Lord cares very much about. We are doing a lot for young people. This is what's so exciting about what's happening. We've got a youth guarantee, but my boss, Secretary of State, has also made clear that if somebody if a young person has an eligible young person has been on Universal Credit for 18 months, we will actually create a guaranteed job for them to support them getting back into job and to job and move them, help them to transition into work.

What we need to do is move to a point where every young person is out there either earning or learning, or preparing themselves to do one or the other. I am particularly worried about the number of young people, the growing number of young people who are not in education, employment or training, and particularly on health grounds, or because for some reason they're outside the labour market altogether. So he may have heard that my Secretary of State has actually asked Alan Milburn to look specifically at an inquiry to find out what's going on with those young people.

We are already doing huge amounts in this area, but we need to address work specifically on that, and I'm looking forward to finding what he has to say.

11:26

Lord Tyrie (Non-affiliated)

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Estate.

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Commissioned an internal report into the effect of the National into the effect of the National Insurance change on unemployment. And have they passed that

11:26

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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information to the Treasury? My Lords, the government did an impact assessment. At the time. It impact assessment. At the time. It acknowledged that there might be an impact on labour supply when it made changes to the national insurance regime. Obviously, what happens in the new budget I know nothing about and I will come forward. What we have done is to work very closely with employers, and we know that employers are out there. They want to take on people and they want to support, particularly people who are not in the labour market at the moment.

Our job is to help them in doing Our job is to help them in doing that.

11:26

Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Labour)

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My Lords, I am. Industry Association. I'm we had the recent announcement of the SMR, the small modular reactor, the Rolls Royce build going to Welver in Wales. Will the Minister join me in welcoming these highly skilled, well-paid and very often trade unionised jobs being brought to the shores of the UK?

11:27

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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Yeah. to welcome that. It was a really exciting announcement. And the government is committed to investing in new, high quality, high skilled jobs. We want to be a country that brings inward investment in the trains people up and gets them into good jobs and keeping them there. And this is a good example of that.

11:27

Baroness Stedman-Scott (Conservative)

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My Lords.

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We are losing around 5000 people a day from the labour market onto a day from the labour market onto benefits. Can I ask what is the department's latest projection for the number of people expected to the number of people expected to flow onto out of work and health related benefits over the next 12 related benefits over the next 12 to 24 months? And what are the main drivers behind that projection, and will the government publish the will the government publish the underlying assumptions that the quarterly progress data, so your quarterly progress data, so your Lordships can track whether the interventions that the noble Baroness refers to are working and

11:28

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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if they're not. We have made clear what our ambitions are on Great Britain for Get Britain working, and that we will have metrics and we will publish regular data on those metrics. One thing I do want to take the opportunity to say at the Dispatch Box is I've been seeing headlines this week suggesting that large numbers of people are flowing onto Universal Credit, as though this was the reason they were flowing out of work and onto Universal Credit. I know the noble Lady knows this, and she is far too smart to raise this at the despatch box.

But could I remind the House that the key reason for that is because the previous government decided to close the legacy benefits and move anyone onto Universal Credit. So, for example, 800,000 people have left old benefits and made a claim to Universal Credit. So I would encourage noble Lords, if you see twice.

11:28

Oral questions: Status of Palestinian refugees following the recognition of the state of Palestine Baroness Deech (Crossbench)

Lord Hall question Baroness Deech.

11:29

Lord Lemos (Labour)

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To ask the question. Standing in my name on the Order Paper.

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The status. Of Palestinian refugees is a final status issue to be resolved through negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians. Recognition of the State of Palestine does not in any way alter Palestine does not in any way alter the status of Palestinian refugees. The. The UK continues to support The. The UK continues to support the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, Unwra and its vital work delivering humanitarian assistance

11:29

Baroness Deech (Crossbench)

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delivering humanitarian assistance and services to Palestinian refugees. This year, we have

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provided 27.5 million to unwrap. My Lord, will the Minister accept that either Palestine is a real state and should deal with its own people, or it is not? And own people, or it is not? And recognition was a falsity. Since the UK recognises Palestine as a state, its citizens living in their state cannot in principle be refugees. Indeed, all the other refugees. Indeed, all the other Palestinians around the world are or should be citizens of that state and no longer stateless.

It is and no longer stateless. It is unwra that is the problem. There is much new reliable evidence that Unwra is permeated with Hamas officials. Unwra continues to inflate the number of refugees inflate the number of refugees instead of settling them, and it teaches them that they will remain refugees until they return to what refugees until they return to what they believe were their homes in what is now Israel, with the aim of what is now Israel, with the aim of obliterating the state.

There will be no future for Gaza unless Unwra be no future for Gaza unless Unwra is dismantled, wrapped up with the UNHCR and the concept of

11:30

Lord Lemos (Labour)

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Palestinian refugees in the West Bank and Gaza should disappear.

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I thank the hon. Lady for that question. As I've said, the UK is recognition of the State of recognition of the State of Palestine does not alter the status of Palestinian refugees, and the question of refugee status remains question of refugee status remains a final status issue to be resolved through negotiations between through negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians. We are deeply concerned to hear about here the accusations towards Unwra staff involved in 7th October 2023, and we welcome UNRWA's commitment to fully investigate allegations against their employees and the

11:31

Lord Bruce of Bennachie (Liberal Democrat)

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continued implementation of the report's recommendations to ensure neutrality and integrity.

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As long as Israel maintains its occupation of Gaza and the occupation of Gaza and the consolidation and illegal expansion of settlements in the West Bank, of settlements in the West Bank, the reality of a Palestinian state remains completely distant. So as remains completely distant. So as permanent members of the Security Council, what are Britain and France doing together to try and

11:31

Lord Lemos (Labour)

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France doing together to try and ensure the establishment of a Palestinian state and the

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resolution of the refugee problem? So I thank the noble Lord for

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So I thank the noble Lord for that question on the West Bank, first of all, in the West Bank, settlement expansion and settler settlement expansion and settler violence has increased. We must not lose sight of the West Bank where lose sight of the West Bank where stability is crucial. Israel must exercise restraint, stop settlement expansion, crackdown on settler expansion, crackdown on settler violence and end its financial stranglehold on the Palestinian stranglehold on the Palestinian Authority. And we have imposed three rounds of sanctions on violent Israeli settlers and on violent Israeli settlers and on members of the Israeli Cabinet, on the wider point that the noble Lord the wider point that the noble Lord makes about what what we are doing, we are working with partners to implement President Trump's peace implement President Trump's peace plan as as he knows.

And we have important priorities in the short

11:32

Lord Singh of Wimbledon (Crossbench)

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important priorities in the short term to stabilise the situation, maintain the ceasefire and work towards a Palestinian state and a two state solution. My Lord, why.

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Are we being so beastly to refugees? This is a Christian country and the Bible reminds us to country and the Bible reminds us to be kind to strangers, for you are strangers in the land of Egypt, strangers in the land of Egypt, seeks teachings, have similar sentiments. Palestinians have been continuously betrayed since the continuously betrayed since the Balfour Declaration protecting their rights. Would the noble Lord, their rights. Would the noble Lord, the Minister, agree that they deserve our sympathy and support?

11:33

Lord Lemos (Labour)

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deserve our sympathy and support? I thank the noble Lord for that question. And yes, I would agree that refugees deserve our sympathy and support. And in relation to Palestine specifically, we are supporting providing £78 million for humanitarian and early recovery support for Palestine this year. A couple of years ago, a weeks ago, we allocated 20 million for essential water, sanitation and hygiene services. My Lords, we've discussed this many times before in your Lordships' House, the the humanitarian situation in Gaza is catastrophic, and the way to improve the situation is to improve, to increase the number of entry points into Gaza.

And we call on the Israeli government to open all routes so aid can flow. I know that noble Lords question was rather wider than that, but it is important that we deal with the situation.

11:34

Baroness Blackstone (Labour)

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My Lords, the escalation of brutal attacks against Palestinians on the. settlements may well increase the number of Palestinian refugees. I was glad to hear the Minister say that sanctions will be continued against such attacks, but can he say whether the government will now take action to reduce the trade that is taking place between illegal settlements and the UK, and indeed stop it altogether, not just goods, but services and investments to.

11:34

Lord Lemos (Labour)

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I think, the noble Lady for that question. And I've already made clear the government's view on settlements in the West Bank, I should say, on sanctions. We don't give a running commentary on future sanctions. But I've already said what we what we have done in relation to that. On the on the other question she raises about trade and other links with the West Bank, our commitment is to work with international partners and multilateral institutions and that, at this turbulent time, is a statement of principle in itself.

11:35

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Conservative)

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Lords, my Lords, I draw Register. may I ask the Minister specifically statements, symbolism, the recognition of Palestine? It has now happened, but in terms of specific influence and specific levers, what levers is the His Majesty's Government exercising, particularly in direct negotiations with Israel, in direct negotiation with the leadership of the Palestinians, and ensuring that the 20 point plan, and what specific levers the UK responsible for in that plan, the time window is closing. We don't need statements and symbolism.

We need action.

11:36

Lord Lemos (Labour)

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Yeah. that question from the noble Lord. And I'm delighted he's he asked me, can I, can I? I think it is really important that I make clear what we, what the government thinks and now the urgent priorities following the 20 point plan are welcome for the ceasefire agreement led by President Trump. We want to move towards the disarming of Hamas. And we have experienced the UK has experienced from Northern Ireland, which we will help to deploy. We want to see the deployment of a ceasefire monitoring mission and an international security force, and the implementation of transitional government governance arrangements in Gaza.

And can I tell the noble Lord that we, and indeed the whole House, we have deployed UK civilian and military personnel to the Civil Military Coordination Centre that aims to coordinate reconstruction efforts across partners in Gaza. So I hope the noble Lord will will agree we are doing everything we can for the moment. can for the moment.

11:37

Baroness Janke (Liberal Democrat)

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And also with the noble Lord, the Minister.

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My Lords. In the. Light of the comments of. President Trump. About removals of Palestinians

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About removals of Palestinians from Gaza, does the government believe that the Palestinians should be given the right to return should be given the right to return to their homes there? And what is action? Is the government taking about taking about forcible removal

11:37

Lord Lemos (Labour)

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about taking about forcible removal of Palestinians and displacement within the Gaza Strip and within

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the occupied territories? I thank the noble Lady for that question. I've already talked about the final status arrangements that we hope for in relation to Palestinian refugees, but she asked me about the right of return. The UK supports a just, fair, agreed and realistic settlement for refugees in line with UN Security Council resolutions. In practice, Council resolutions. In practice, this means that the right of return is a final status issue, which must be agreed in negotiations between the Israelis and Palestinians, but with support from neighbouring countries and the international

11:38

Lord Callanan (Conservative)

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countries and the international community, including the UK, compatible with two states for two peoples.

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My Lord, I'm sure there are a range of views across your Lordships' House on the government's decision to recognise Palestine, but I'm sure everyone has agreed the need for national has agreed the need for national security and border security to be primary duties of the government. So could the noble Lord please tell So could the noble Lord please tell the House what steps the government is taking to ensure that no person who has been a member of Hamas or

11:38

Lord Lemos (Labour)

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who has been a member of Hamas or linked to Hamas, comes to the UK as a refugee from Palestine.

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Can I make the government's view on Hamas absolutely clear? And and on Hamas absolutely clear? And and that will inform my answer to the noble Lords question about the possibility of people arriving here. The UK assesses Hamas in its The UK assesses Hamas in its entirety to be concerned in terrorism, and prescribes the organisation in full. Under the organisation in full. Under the Terrorism Act. It is illegal in the UK to join, support or display any UK to join, support or display any connection to Hamas.

Hamas, as an organisation, is sanctioned by the UK and subject to an asset freeze UK and subject to an asset freeze and arms embargo. Since October the 7th, the UK has implemented three further rounds of sanctions on 23 Hamas and PA linked individuals and entities to disrupt their entities to disrupt their operations and financial networks. And on the question that the noble Lord asks about border security, I Lord asks about border security, I hope I've made it clear that we are very committed to seeing Hamas and

11:39

Oral questions: Goodmayes Hospital mental health facility Baroness Berger (Labour)

very committed to seeing Hamas and and all the people associated with as a terrorist organisation, and we will enforce border security. Berger.

11:39

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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My Lords, I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

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My Lords, what happened at Goodmayes Hospital was totally unacceptable and I offer my sincere condolences to Alice Figueroa, whose family and loved ones who whose family and loved ones who have suffered an unimaginable loss. The trust failed in its basic responsibilities to Alice, and I expect, and we are working to expect, and we are working to ensure that it prioritises the safety of its services. I understand that the trust has taken steps to improve services and steps to improve services and reduce risk, including changes to ward environments, better training

11:40

Baroness Berger (Labour)

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ward environments, better training in suicide prevention and investment in recruitment and retention.

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Thank you. It was back in July of 2015 that Alice Figueredo took of 2015 that Alice Figueredo took her own life, using a bin bag from a shared bathroom. She was just 22 years old, and recently leaked documents reveal that just four months later, another young woman from the same ward attempted to harm herself in an almost identical manner. But these are not isolated incidents. In 2023, three women incidents. In 2023, three women died in a Priory psychiatric hospital within two months.

Can I hospital within two months. Can I ask my noble friend, the Baroness, what the government is doing to ensure that therapeutic care is ensure that therapeutic care is provided and lessons are really learnt so that we don't see any further tragic loss of life from

11:41

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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further tragic loss of life from any aspect of the mental health inpatient estate.

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I'm grateful to my noble friend for raising this in this way. for raising this in this way. National. I can say to my noble friend that national guidance is being developed, which is expected soon in January. On on plastic bag use in mental health settings, but also the Social inquiry has recently reviewed progress against recently reviewed progress against the recommendations of the report. Important recommendations of the Important recommendations of the report of Professor Williams, which were very much addressed at the role of healthcare regulators of role of healthcare regulators of NHS bodies and the CPS.

In addition, the NHS National Oversight the NHS National Oversight Framework does give now a transparent assessment of the performance of every trust in England, which means that those with the greatest challenges or with the greatest challenges or concerns will receive enhanced support and in addition, the CQC, support and in addition, the CQC, as we move it to a new intelligence led model, is able to conduct rapid led model, is able to conduct rapid response inspections where concerns are identified so that we can get

11:42

Baroness Murphy (Crossbench)

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on top of problems before they produce the tragic consequences my noble friend refers to.

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Would the Minister agree with me that while it is ten years since Alice Figueredo died, we know that resources in mental health services, inpatient units, in terms of human resources particularly, but the number of beds as well that they number of beds as well that they have access to has deteriorated dramatically. We heard very potent evidence during the passage of the mental health bill last year. Or was it this year? It was this year was it this year? It was this year of the serious consequences that that has risen.

What are we going to do to improve the quality and to do to improve the quality and quantity of resources available to mental health units, so that

11:43

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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mental health units, so that occurrences like this do not occur?

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Well, I, as the noble Lady, will be aware, I'd taken a broader approach, which is the current approach, which is the current inpatient model itself is totally inpatient model itself is totally outdated and can't address adequately the inherent risks in the mental health inpatient system. So we have to move to new models of care which are integrated in the community, and those changes will be made as part of the ten year be made as part of the ten year plan.

And importantly for me, that will mean a new era of transparency, will mean a new era of transparency, as well as that rigorous focus on patient safety and care, and also

11:44

Lord Scriven (Liberal Democrat)

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patient safety and care, and also hearing and acting on patient and staff voices. My Lords, from these benches,

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My Lords, from these benches, could we also send our condolences to Alice's families and loved ones, to Alice's families and loved ones, considering that the judge noted that North East London NHS Foundation Trust finances were, in, quote, an absolute perilous state? End quote, what assessment has the government made of the direct link between severe financial distress in NHS mental health trusts and the ability to maintain fundamental patient safety standards, such as ensuring rapid environmental de-escalation and adequate staffing levels? Thank you.

levels? Thank you.

11:44

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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Well, of course, these are areas and matters are extremely important. But if we're talking about the specific trust, the noble Lord will, I'm sure, be aware that there are particularly unacceptable issues that have been happening in that trust. I gave the answer straight to straight off to my noble friend that in fact, it's totally unacceptable. But I can say, looking to the future, that following what is a terrible tragedy, the trust has replaced its leadership and it is making improvements to services.

And certainly the most recent CQC inspection found that services were well. That the that they have improved. But I would say that acute adult wards do remain in the category of requiring improvement, as does its overall rating. And I can assure the noble Lord we're continuing to work with the trust to raise its game. to raise its game.

11:45

Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford (Conservative)

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The whole House will want to join in sending condolences, and I'm pleased that the Minister identified improving the performance of the CQC is an important step in preventing these tragedies from happening in the first place. She will know that Penny Dash reviewed the performance of the CQC and made a number of recommendations particularly relevant to mental health providers, and some progress has been made against that, including establishing a chief inspector for mental health. But there are still steps that need to be taken.

I know that the single assessment framework at the moment is still too input heavy and inadequately addresses outcomes in mental health. There is still expertise gaps and recruitment is challenging and there are backlogs and risks. With persistent delays in re inspections for high risk mental health units. I wonder if the Minister can say, given today's outcome and discussion, what steps she will take to address these very serious issues. issues.

11:46

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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These are very serious issues and we continue to work on them. And I, I perhaps should have I should also say how grateful we are to the health Services Safety Investigations Board. Their reports highlight what I believe are extremely important concerns and safety recommendations. And the reason they're doing that is with an aim to help us to improve inpatient mental health services. So I can say to the noble Lady, we are in the process of formally responding on those on those recommendations that have been made within this report.

So in addition to the changes I have referred to, we are very seriously and I am obviously invested as the mental health Minister in this in in making sure that we continue to drive forward improvements, patient safety and accountability. safety and accountability.

11:47

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Labour)

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My Lords, given in the testimony presented by my noble friend Baroness Berger, I would like to ask my noble friend, the Minister, what assurances can she provide to your Lordships' House to underpin the Mental Health Act and by way of financial spend, to ensure that it's protected for mental health services, to deal with all the challenges that have happened over the last number of years and into the future.

11:48

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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Well, the Mental Health Act, which is within touching distance, I hope, of royal assent, is absolutely crucial. It's a reform of of an act which was 41 years old and undoubtedly will be crucial. And I'm grateful to many noble Lords for their participation in getting us to the right place is absolutely crucial, and it will deliver on our government commitment to make sure we modernise the legislation. So the noble Lady, I hope, will, my noble friend, I hope, will be aware that implementation is absolutely key.

But there are, and rightly a number of points within the Bill which I hope will become an act which will only take effect when services are in the right place. It would be wrong to do so without it.

11:49

Lord Kamall (Conservative)

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My Lords, the incident at Goodmayes Hospital and others raised by the Baroness Baroness Berger, such as the tragic case of Kate Shymansky after her daughter's death at Huntercombe Hospital in 2022. These all raise profound concerns about the treatment of vulnerable patients. Now, families have described the care that their loved ones received as cruel and more akin to the treatment of prisoners than patients. Now the noble Lady, the Minister, spoken of guidance, regulation and new models. So given all these concerns and hospitals such as Goodmayes and Huntercombe, can I ask the noble Lady, the Minister, what conversations her department is having with trusts and icbs to instil a culture where patients are treated with compassion, treated with dignity, and where and where it is safe.

Patients have proper access to their families.

11:49

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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Well, that is absolutely at the core. And perhaps I could just say as an example on this particular tragic case, that NHS England meet regularly with the trust still, and the last meeting took place two weeks ago. They conducted a weeks ago. They conducted a mid-year review and there is also a recommendation that that for a memorandum of understanding on investigating healthcare incidents where there is suspected criminal activity, which I think is something we've really got to consider, and that will mean there can be action following incidents like this where there is that reasonable suspicion.

Again, I think that the having a handle on it, monitoring it, keeping accountability, as well as having the guidance absolutely key to prevention as well as improvement

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after these terrible and tragic events. My Lords, that concludes our

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My Lords, that concludes our questions for today. And any members wishing to leave the

11:52

Private Notice Question: Covid-19 commemorations Baroness Morgan of Cotes (Non-affiliated)

Private Private notice Private notice question Private notice question on Private notice question on Covid Private notice question on Covid 19 commemorations. Baroness Morgan of Cotes.

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My Lords, I beg leave to ask a question of which I have given private notice. The question is as follows. And I draw attention to my role as chair of the UK Commission role as chair of the UK Commission on Covid Commemoration to ask His Majesty's Government what plans they have to commemorate the Covid

11:52

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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19 pandemic. My Lords, I am pleased that today the government has published today the government has published its response to the UK Commission on Covid Commemoration, setting out plans to mark this period in our nation's history. I'd like to thank the noble Baroness and all of the commissioners for the careful consideration they have given to their report, as well as the Covid 19 Bereaved Family Group's Covid 19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru. Covid 19 Bereaved Families for justice UK.

Covid 19 Families Scotland. Covid 19 families UK. The friends of the wall. The memory stones of love. Yellow hearts to remember. We're grateful for their

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involvement in Efforts to support others in their grief. I'd also like to thank their grief. I'd also like to thank DCMS officials for their work on this issue. Through this program of commemoration, we will ensure that commemoration, we will ensure that those we lost are honoured that we remember the sacrifices and the resilience of so many and that as a

11:53

Baroness Morgan of Cotes (Non-affiliated)

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resilience of so many and that as a country, we do not forget.

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Nobili, the Minister, very much indeed for her comments. I would like to thank the government for like to thank the government for their considered and thoughtful response published today. The noble response published today. The noble Lady, the Minister, but also her predecessors, both in this administration and the last. I would like to thank the Cabinet would like to thank the Cabinet Office and DCMS officials who have been outstanding throughout this process, as well as my fellow commissioners and also those who gave us evidence, including the key workers who gave us evidence about workers who gave us evidence about their public service.

But above all, as the noble Lady said, I would like to thank those bereaved families who shared their perspectives on what it was like to perspectives on what it was like to lose a loved one in the course of the Covid 19 pandemic. Many of them the Covid 19 pandemic. Many of them are here in Parliament today. They were generous in their time and commitment in the public commitment in the public consultation events. And I remember two things. Two comments that really struck me.

The first was somebody saying during the pandemic, somebody saying during the pandemic, everyone lost something, but secondly was their determination both to honour their loved ones, both to honour their loved ones, but also to learn the lessons of the pandemic for the future. So perhaps I could just ask the noble perhaps I could just ask the noble Lady, the Minister, just to set out a little more detail before that, because many of us have not had a chance to read the considered and thoughtful response, how the government has struck the balance between both commemoration, remembering the loss and the loved ones, but also in relation to future preparedness for a future natural hazard or other pandemic.

natural hazard or other pandemic.

11:55

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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The government is clear that the impact of Covid 19 should never be forgotten. And I'd like to echo the noble Ladies words about that. She quoted the evidence given to the commission in terms of everybody losing something, but quite clearly, for a quarter of a million people, they lost their lives. And that leaves a huge tragic legacy for those left behind. And I think we want them to be central to the Covid commemoration programme.

So we're continuing to support the UK wide Covid 19 Day of Reflection that will take place each March, and we are going to confirm the dates for the next few years. We're working with Forestry England and NHS Charities Together on the creation of new Covid 19 commemorative green spaces across England's forests and in the grounds of NHS sites, and we are setting out our support for the long term preservation of a national Covid memorial wall, which is obviously just across the river from Parliament, where we're sitting today as a national memorial to the lives lost to Covid 19.

And to do that, we're going to continue to work closely with friends of the wall, but also with a range of other partners. We need to include in that work in relation to prevention of future natural hazards, including pandemics. We're launching a new UK wide fellowship scheme on natural hazards to support future national resilience, as recommended by the Commission. And I am pleased to say that the first cohort will start next year in February 2026. Alongside this, we're launching new web pages on Gov.uk, specifically dedicated to Covid commemoration, which will include education materials, a repository of oral histories, and a map highlighting over 100 memorials that already exist to allow the public to easily find this information.

I do have a lot more information, but I'm clear other information, but I'm clear other questions.

11:57

Lord Kamall (Conservative)

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My Lords, can I add my words and and my sentiments and the other as my benches, to remember all those who sadly lost their lives, but also to pay tribute to the workers, not just in the health and care services, but who delivered public sector and delivered many of our public services. While many were able to stay at home and Shield. My Lords, we recently had a debate on bereavement and how some people who lost loved ones during Covid. While we want to commemorate those who did fantastic work and kept this country going, there are still some who have not yet found closure.

And we had a very interesting debate, I think a few months ago on this same issue. Could I ask, is there any update in terms of what the government is doing to help those who still haven't found closure as a result of bereavement and loss that they suffered of loved ones that they suffered of loved ones during the pandemic?

11:57

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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Yeah, come up. a really important point, and I think a number of noble Lords will be aware that I had the privilege to work on the response in London and people I was working with at the same time as they were leading that response also lost loved ones. So, for example, when I went to the wall a couple of weeks ago, I did look for the heart, remembering Diana Walker, who was the mother of the woman who was my researcher during that dreadful period.

So I think it's really important to recognise that actually for some people, the I mean, how do you get over a loss of that kind? And I think that we are aiming to work with a range of organisations, including bereavement organisations, to make sure we get it right, but I think we need to get it right so that we commemorate what happened, but also that as a government, we recognise that for so many people, the pandemic and the devastating impact it had on people's lives is still very much part of their present.

11:59

Lord Scriven (Liberal Democrat)

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She's also. also send our remembrance to all those who have died in their families? And also our thanks to so many people across the country who went beyond the call of duty to keep people safe, keep people alive, and to keep the country running during the pandemic. Clearly, this commission and the report talks about preparedness. Could I ask one specific issue what extra help and provision will be made to local public health departments across the country? Because they're the ones who have the data, have the resources of shoes on the ground, and actually can make a big difference in such a problems to do with pandemic or local emergencies.

12:00

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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So I'm happy to meet the the noble Lord in with regard to this and national level. And I appreciate the noble Lord was asking about sort of public health officials at a local level. At national level, we've been conducting a national exercise on pandemic preparedness, Exercise Pegasus. Clearly, a huge amount is delivered at a local level, but I'm happy to ensure that I set up a meeting for the noble Lord, either myself or with the relevant officials, so that you get that sort of level of detail that unfortunately, I don't have before me today.

12:00

Lord Hannay of Chiswick (Crossbench)

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noble Lady, the Minister, say what the government's plans are for the World Health Organisation's pandemic convention, which is moving ahead all too slowly in the United Nations machinery, would she say, whether the government has its firm objective, that that convention should be agreed and signed up to in 2026? signed up to in 2026?

12:01

Lord Robathan (Conservative)

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I will write to the noble Lord on the important point he makes.

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It's appalling. Pandemic kills thousands and thousands of people, and I'm sure everybody in this chamber knows people who were chamber knows people who were killed, often a very nasty and unpleasant death. But since then, the Prime Minister at the time, Boris Johnson, said, as I understand it, I'd be willing to be corrected that he thought that lockdowns did not really achieve lockdowns did not really achieve very much. So I wonder if the Minister could tell us, are the government looking at what the lockdowns achieved? After all, thousands and thousands of people thousands and thousands of people died during lockdowns.

Could you could you tell us what the lockdowns achieved and what the

12:01

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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lockdowns achieved and what the government is looking at in future?

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So I think it's really important that we recognise that there's a whole inquiry and a whole inquiry whole inquiry and a whole inquiry machinery that's looking at exactly what the effectiveness of what the effectiveness of particular measures were, and I understand the next module understand the next module publication is going to be within the next couple of couple of weeks. the next couple of couple of weeks. The the work we've announcing the response to today is around commemoration. From a personal commemoration.

From a personal perspective, though, I would like to remind noble Lords that the NHS to remind noble Lords that the NHS was in a very perilous state at the point at which we did go into lockdown, and from somebody who was

12:02

The Lord Bishop of London (Bishops)

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lockdown, and from somebody who was working on the response, the question wasn't whether we should

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do that. But when. My Lord, can I add. My condolences, but also my prayers to those who lost somebody prayers to those who lost somebody during Covid, particularly those in the chamber today, but also to recognise the hard work of the recognise the hard work of the noble Baroness, Baroness Morgan and the Commission. I wonder whether I the Commission. I wonder whether I could ask the Baroness, the Minister, what efforts is being made, made to ongoing engagement with communities to rebuild the trust in public services, including

12:03

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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trust in public services, including the health service that was lost during Covid?

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I'd like to thank the Right Reverend Prelate for the leadership Reverend Prelate for the leadership she showed within London during the pandemic. I think the rebuilding of trust is clearly important, and I trust is clearly important, and I think that that's that's potentially for a wider conversation. I'm happy to meet the conversation. I'm happy to meet the right reverend to talk talk through this. For me, though, I think that this. For me, though, I think that in in the commemoration and how we're approaching the commemoration, we're approaching the commemoration, we're really keen to make sure that the heart of what we're announcing

12:04

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (Green Party)

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the heart of what we're announcing today is a recognition of the loss of nearly a quarter of a million lives.

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For the green. Groups sympathies, deep sympathies also to those who sympathies also to those who continue to have to live under the shadow of Covid bereavement, those shadow of Covid bereavement, those who suffering continuing from long Covid, and of course, those who gave so much during the pandemic. gave so much during the pandemic. The noble Lady has. The Minister has referred to the issue of preparedness now the next pandemic, preparedness now the next pandemic, what W.H.O. calls disease X is high as a high probability it will be a as a high probability it will be a flu virus.

It will almost certainly be an airborne pathogen. Is the government ready in terms of medical supplies, up to date medical supplies now and in the future to deal with that? And also, what's the government doing in what's the government doing in terms of issues of ventilation and air filtration to make sure that we

12:05

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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can have safe public spaces in that environment. Ensuring the UK is prepared for

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Ensuring the UK is prepared for future pandemic is absolutely a top priority for the government, and we are embedding lessons from the are embedding lessons from the Covid 19 pandemic, including the inquiries recommendations within our pandemic preparedness. And I think, like other noble Lords, we're hugely grateful to noble Lady Baroness Hallett and her team for their important work. Just to reassure the noble Lady. The UK government has been conducting a national exercise on pandemic preparedness, which is exploring a lot of these issues, which is called Exercise Pegasus and which is involving both Ministers from across the UK government, but also working very closely with devolved, devolved governments to try and ensure that we do have the preparedness that we need for a future pandemic.

We're very clear that this won't necessarily be another 100 years, and we need to be prepared now. It was the first of its kind, nearly a decade and the largest simulation. So the the exercise is the first of its kind in nearly a decade, and the largest simulation of a pandemic in UK history. The findings of the exercise and the Postexercise report were delivered in due course, and I'm sure will be of interest to your Lordships' House. your Lordships' House.

12:06

Lord Reid of Cardowan (Labour)

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Labour. Labour, following on from the noble Ladies question and the Noble Minister's answer, can I first of all add my condolences to those that have been expressed by noble Lords as regards preparations? The noble Lady, the Minister, said that these are underway. They needn't necessarily wait in the detail for the inquiry results. I am reminded, however, that such an exercise in preparation was carried out in 2016 and it apparently had absolutely no effect. After the that exercise was concluded and the lessons were drawn.

Can the noble Lady, the Minister, assure me that any preparations in any exercises this time will be translated into operational capabilities, so that the best memorial and legacy that we can give for those who suffered during Covid and their families is to ensure that if this ever happens again, which is not preventable, that at least we will be prepared and action will be based on the experiences of the exercises we've experiences of the exercises we've carried out. Yeah.

12:07

Baroness Twycross, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Labour)

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Ensuring the UK is prepared for future pandemic is an absolute top priority for this government, and we're already embedding lessons from the Covid 19 pandemic within our pandemic preparedness. And I've already mentioned Exercise Pegasus, so I won't go through that again. But the DHSC has committed to publish a new pandemic preparedness strategy, which will set out how the health and care system is implementing the principles of its new strategic approach to pandemic pandemic preparedness, and we owe it to every single person who lost it to every single person who lost their lives or who lost their loved ones to make sure we absolutely ones to make sure we absolutely learn from the Covid 19 pandemic and get it right for the future.

12:08

Business of the House

My Lords, before we move on to the next business, I wanted to make a brief statement of how we will handle the Committee stage of the Terminally Ill Adults Bill tomorrow. I'll also send this statement out by email to all members shortly. I understand colleagues are keen to prepare, so hopefully this will help in planning this in line. How it would usually move forward. First, I would like to thank the staff of the public Bill office, who worked tirelessly to produce the Marshall List for the Thursday Committee.

The list, which contains over 900 amendments, were produced at 116 this morning. I'm sure the

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whole House appreciates the hard work they've gone through on our behalf. Yeah.

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Yeah. Turning to the process, the whips office will shortly distribute draft groupings to noble distribute draft groupings to noble Lords with amendments in the usual manner, as the government is neutral, any changes requested will neutral, any changes requested will be simply actioned. The sponsor, my noble friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton, will lead on negotiating any changes should should he wish to do so. The government will then to do so. The government will then communicate the final groupings in the usual manner, in order to aid the House in having an orderly the House in having an orderly debate.

The normal practice, including for PMS, that the government does not support, that government does not support, that have committee stages. Lord Faulks will set a target at the end of today to aid colleagues in knowing today to aid colleagues in knowing where they might need to prepare speeches for, or if topics they know are interested in may be debated. Tomorrow, we expect the House to rise at a convenient point around 3 p.m. as per the usual around 3 p.m. as per the usual conventions of the House, which retain the typical flexibility of the House.

We need to move slightly beyond this point or slightly beyond this point or slightly before this point in order to conclude groups being debated. This ensures orderly debate, and the ensures orderly debate, and the spirit of good business management means we do not have to undertake the complex exercise of noting down everyone in attendance in order to ensure they're there when the group resumes on a subsequent day. It also aids the overall flow of debate on such an important topic. At the conclusion of that final group, at a convenient point, I will move to adjourn the House.

My Lords, I ask all noble Lords to respect the usual conventions regarding speaking, times of committee and respect all noble Lords who are speaking in the debates. The whips, of course, will continue to monitor debate in the usual manner. Finally, my Lords most important, sincerely held views are held on all sides regarding this Bill. Please respect that and the upcoming debates tomorrow. Remember courtesy and respect and show those watching the House of Lords at its best. I trust that if we continue to respect each other with a thought provoking debate tomorrow, my.

12:11

Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Labour)

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Lords. the Chief Whip has said in relation to the enormous amount of work that has gone into producing the marshalled list? Could I also strongly echo what he has said about the temper of the debate, which must be something that does credit to the House. Thirdly, could I invite any member of the House who wishes to d-group pursuant to the suggested groupings from the Whips office today, to approach me so that we can discuss an orderly way of dealing with these amendments? And finally, could I point out that I have been told this morning that 900 plus amendments is the highest number ever of amendments to a bill, and I'm wondering what conclusion I should draw from that.

12:12

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

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My Lords, could I just thank the Government Chief Whip for outlining the process for tomorrow, which is entirely within the normal run of things. And I would also like to join him in thanking everyone who join him in thanking everyone who has worked so hard to draw up the amendments and the groupings. Thank you very. Questions. On a statement made in the House of Commons on Tuesday, the 11th of November on release in error.

error.

12:12

Lord Keen of Elie (Conservative)

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My Lords. On Wednesday. David Lammy, Deputy Prime Minister and Secretary of State for justice, appeared at Prime Minister's Questions to not answer questions about inadvertent prisoner release. The speaker and the Other place sought his recall on Tuesday of this week, the Secretary of State for justice gave himself up and returned to the parliamentary estate, where, despite what was no doubt, his officials careful preparation, he told members and the Other place that the previous government had inadvertently released prisoners at the rate of 17 per month.

This would have involved the release of 2856 prisoners. The true figure, as recorded in the Ministry of Justice's own official record, is 860, or about three each month. Three too many, but a fraction of the number which the Secretary of State for justice gave to his colleagues in the Commons. Can the noble Lord, the Minister, reassure this House that the most stringent measures will now be taken to prevent the inadvertent release of any further erroneous statistics by the Secretary of State for justice, given the alarm that these are liable to engender in the general public.

12:14

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (Liberal Democrat)

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My Lords, the releasing of Shadow Sharif from Wandsworth and all other such accidental releases would have been far too numerous, are symptomatic of a system woefully prone to error. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Kiely Lord Keen of Elie, has seriously criticised the answer given by the Deputy Prime Minister to the House of Commons on the 5th of November. And it may be that the Deputy Prime Minister did make the wrong call in withholding more detail because he felt he did not have the full picture.

And it may also be that there were errors in the detail of his response. But if he made a wrong call on that decision to give less detail, I accept that it was a difficult call and it was a call made in good faith and of itself. It had no consequences. The more important question, my Lords, is how and in what timescale we improve the system. Now we on these benches applaud the appointment of Dame Lynne Owens to conduct a full review.

Accidental releases and the systems for avoiding them are very important, not just of themselves, but for the confidence of the public in our systems. The statement says that Dame Lynne's report will come at the end of February, three months from now. And I have to say, we think that's a long time. So I ask, is there scope for an interim report within days of Mr. Kabatas release, the MoJ took some urgent steps set out in the statement to tighten up the system and introduce for one for one measure, a more robust checklist.

May we ask for a further action plan pending Dame Lynn's final report from her and her team if possible. My Lords, we expect, as I think the noble Lord does, that much of the improvement required will involve the introduction of more robust digital procedures initially, no doubt alongside strengthened paper procedures. And I ask the noble Lord if he will give an undertaking that the implementation of those of Dame Lynn's recommendations, as the government accepts, will be treated with the greatest urgency.

Only in that way, and with that urgency, can the serious loss of public confidence that flows from these accidental releases in our prison accidental releases in our prison security be recovered? Yes. security be recovered? Yes.

12:17

Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)

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My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord Keen and the noble Lord marks for the points they have made on this important issue. On Tuesday at 3:30 p.m. the Deputy Prime Minister set out in the other place that we were aware of three releases in error from prison. We were also investigating a further case of a potential release in error on the 3rd of November of a person who may have still been at large. I can now tell you, Lordships' House, that the potential case to which the Deputy Prime Minister referred was indeed a release in error.

I can also confirm that this individual was swiftly returned to police custody on the same day, and returned to prison the following morning. I'd like to thank the diligent work of Leicestershire Police. Finally, the foreign national offender, who was one of the three the Deputy Prime Minister referred to, was today classified as a lawful release following additional checks that took place. What I've just set out means that the current total of releases in error from prison stands at two as of 9:00 These are a matters, as I'm sure noble Lords appreciate.

Things can change quickly. The Deputy Prime Minister and I get regular updates on the situation. My Lords releases an error are symptomatic of a system stretched to its limits. Prisons are full, almost a breaking point, which makes them an even more challenging environment. I pay tribute to the prison staff working under incredibly difficult circumstances. What we're talking about here is a paper based system with individual prisoners, sentences worked out every time they arrive to a new prison. Prison staff must consider the type of offence committed and each individual piece of legislation it comes under.

This process has become increasingly complex in recent years, owing to the previous government's early release programme and the scheme this government was forced to put in place upon coming into office to prevent the collapse of our prisons. A 2021 review found more than 500 pages of sentence management guidance. Of course, prison staff go through full and proper training before they start their jobs, but the reality is that prisons suffered staffing cuts of around a quarter between 2010 and 2017. That is around 6000 fewer people.

The knock on effect is that today, over half of frontline prison staff have less than five years experience. That makes mistakes more likely. My Lords, the previous government had 14 years to sort this problem out, and the reason they didn't is not because they didn't try. It is because it is a very complex and difficult task. I've taken on this challenge, and what we're putting together is a sensible and achievable plan. I can tell noble Lords that of the 57,000 or so routine prison releases in the year to March 2025, there were 262 releases.

An error. This is clearly too many. Typically, prisoners are flagged for release based on sentence length and statutory release points, usually at 40 or 50% of the sentence for standard determinate sentences and two thirds for serious offences. Life and indeterminate sentence is required. Parole board approval before release. Eligibility checks. Identifying verification, outstanding legal orders and exclusion criteria such as sexual offences and terrorism are all reviewed before release. I accept that there has been uncertainty around the precise number of releases.

An error. This is down to the data challenges this government inherited. It is why on Tuesday we published new data showing 91 releases in error from prisons from April to October. Further data on the breakdown of offences are official statistics that need to be combed through in detail before being put in the public domain. There was not a publication due this week, but we recognise the public interest in being transparent about the overall number and I can tell noble Lords that further breakdowns will be published in the normal way through our regular statistics and Dame Lynn Owens.

Owens will be looking at data and transparency as part of her independent review, and as the noble Lord Marks inferred, it is really important that we learn from her review, as my noble Lord Dear will recall. Following the release in error of in October, the Deputy Prime Minister announced stronger release checks. There is now more senior accountability, including a new checklist to be completed by duty governors the night before a release. In the specific case of Ibrahim Kader Sharif, the error leading to his release, a warrant for his remand being incorrectly forwarded by email from HMP Pentonville to HMP Wandsworth took place before the new checks were put into place.

Human error will of course always happen. It would be impossible to adequately to eradicate it completely and no government should pretend otherwise. I believe our staff turn up every day to do their best. What we must do now is modernise the release process with digital systems, which reduce the scope for error. Over the next six months, we will provide up to £10 million to deliver AI and technology based solutions, to support prison staff to detect mistakes and calculate sentences correctly, but also to ensure they have accurate data available to them.

Public safety is, of course, this government's top priority. The Deputy Prime Minister has already given an unequivocal apology to all those who face fear, distress or worse, as a result of the accidental release of prisoners. And I echo that apology in terms of those released in error who are still at large. For those victims eligible to receive the services provided under the Victim Contact Scheme, their Victim Liaison Officer will notify them when the offender is apprehended and returned to prison custody.

My Lords, releases an error are the consequence of a system pushed beyond its limits. It is a legacy this government is determined to fix and we are already doing so. This government has gripped this issue where others have failed to act. act.

12:23

Baroness Chakrabarti (Labour)

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My Lord, to my noble friend, the Minister. But on this occasion also to the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley on Thames. For the bipartisan nature of his question, and focusing on this lack of digitisation, which I have to say I find completely flabbergasting in the context of such a massive prison estate. When we live in such a digital world. Now, this isn't just about record keeping, is it? My Lords, it's about sentence calculation as well, in the context of incredibly complex statute book.

I'm sometimes sceptical about artificial intelligence, but on this occasion I think it's an obvious fit for something that is essentially a complex mathematical equation that could be greatly assisted by a and could my noble friend, the Minister, assure the House that that that aspect of his answer will be really prioritised, but also that the contracts for the development of, of, of, of this technology will be firmly gripped in the context of procurement and the sovereign capacity will be will be beefed up.

be beefed up.

12:25

Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)

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My noble friend is right that the opportunities that we have to simplify and make more, more accurate decisions in the justice system, we have to grasp this and we have to grasp it quickly. And AI is one of the most important factors that we need to embrace. And my noble friend is right that the procurement process, I think, is something we need to ensure that we do correctly, but also we don't take so much time that we miss the opportunity.

And I've been fortunate to work with a number of colleagues within the Ministry of Justice who are AI experts. In fact, a number of meetings I have people ask for the AI team on a far too regular basis. Think it's going to solve lots of problems, but essentially when you have multiple bits of paperwork and we have staff in the offender management unit who are literally dealing with boxes and boxes of paperwork, it is unfair to expect them to get it accurate 100% of the time.

I would like to walk into an offenders management unit and see computer screens rather than boxes of paperwork. And I think also one of the things that I've been really interested in coming from a business environment into government is just what the opportunities are across government of us embracing AI, and I just think we will end up delivering much better public services as a result. My Lords.

12:26

Lord Sandhurst (Conservative)

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The 7th. mistaken releases of 91. That is 13 a month. How many of those 91 had been convicted of sexual or domestic abuse offences, and whose victims would have been unaware that they were now loose?

12:26

Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)

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I won't be giving a running commentary on all of the numbers, but we will be publishing in a normal way in July next year. The breakdown of all that detail. And but what is important is to recognise that 91 released an error is too many. And what we need to do is to learn from what Dame Lynn Owen's review finds out and act upon it, but also to get going now. And that is what we've done with we've had a we've had the first board meeting, the Justice Performance Board, we've set up the urgent warrant query unit, which actually is going to be really helpful because we recognise that's where a number of the issues occur and the Digital Rapid Response unit have gone into Wandsworth.

And this is where the AI element comes in. And they've already recognised there are four common points of failure that they think AI will will significantly help. It won't help all of those issues. But I think we have an awful lot to do and it's a challenge. I'm looking and it's a challenge. I'm looking forward to embracing.

12:27

Lord Reid of Cardowan (Labour)

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My Lord Stephen Lord Sugar. just say that I am absolutely certain that under previous Secretaries of State for Justice and Home Secretaries, including myself, that there has been a frequent. Inadvertent releases of prisoners? But he's absolutely right that the past 14 years and the cuts have thousands of prison officers cannot have helped this situation. So I wish him well. My question to him concerns the victims, because I'm sure all noble Lords can imagine, perhaps even understand, the fear and distress that victims and their families suffer when they learn of such mistaken releases.

So can I assure us that everything has been done in the event of such releases, to promptly and fully inform the victims and their families. If an offender is mistakenly released, and would he say something about the measures that have been taken to ensure that that is the case?

12:29

Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)

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I thank my noble friend for the question, especially referring to victims. Victims always have to come first and I appreciate what a difficult time it must have been for a number of victims and their families, knowing that prisoners who they thought were in prison were actually out in the community where a a victim has a victim liaison officer and is and is part of the victim contact scheme, then they will be engaged in that process. So that to me is really important that that happens.

And I'd also like to just refer to your initial comments around the fact that this has been a problem for some time. And I'd also that's one of the reasons why in my speech, I specifically said that I know that the previous government were trying to to improve this as well. And I think this is something that across government, not just politicians but also civil servants, have been trying to improve accuracy and improve systems. So I think this is this is something that we really need to embrace.

But as part of the process, we need to understand that victims come first and the damage victims come first and the damage this does to victims is significant.

12:30

Lord Carter of Haslemere (Crossbench)

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Prisoners have been released in error for decades. I know because I used to advise on sentence calculation in the 1990s in the Home Office Legal Advisers branch, and I was Prison Service legal adviser, and it was difficult then. It is now fiendishly difficult. And that's because of all the changes to the statute book that the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, she knows well, she was with me in the Home Office that I was indeed that that have happened since then.

So the the statute book is a total mess as far as trying to calculate what, when a release date applies for a particular prisoners, they're all in a different position. Some have got additional days, some have served different remand time. All of these factors need to be taken into account, as has been said by the noble Lord Marks and Lady Chakrabarti, a digital answer has to be the way forward because, as she said here, it's it's just obviously something that will work because you can punch in the details of the sentence to work out exactly when the release date comes up.

It'll have to be updated, of course, as additional days are added to the sentence and so on in the future. But my question is, there's been we've got to go to a digital solution, but how long will it take for that to be up and running? Because there's going to be a procurement process. These things take ages and ages. We haven't got ages and ages. You know, we've identified the crisis that we have taking place. So is there any estimate of when this will be actually up and running functioning actually up and running functioning to these releases?

12:31

Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)

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The digital team that have gone into Wandsworth are very confident that they can do some quick fixes. I don't have an exact timeline, but we have given them up to £10 million to do those quick fixes. And there's a there's a nature of digital technology. We'll be able to roll that out across the prison estate very quickly. One of the I think the relevant points that some noble Lords were discussing with me in the Lordships' House last night is around the sentencing bill, and what we're hoping is the sentencing bill will make things simpler.

But I'd also like to sort of touch on the point that you mentioned how complicated it is. I actually think it's unfair on our hard working staff to expect them, especially those who just started to get this right all the time. We need to support them not just with digital solutions, but also a lot of training as well because it's very complex. Even though we're going to simplify things, it will still be a complex process. But I'm hoping as part of the sentencing bill, it will simplify things for everybody involved in the justice system.

12:32

Lord Foster of Bath (Liberal Democrat)

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We welcome the quick action by the government and the measures that have been proposed. In particular, as just discussed, the use of AI. But the noble Lord, the Minister, refers to the issue of hard working staff. But the truth is, my Lords, as we have more and more prisoners, we have fewer and fewer prison officers and they are frankly, leaving at an alarming rate. And so we need to address some of the issues around those staff. And, my Lords, the Justice and Home Affairs Select Committee and the Chief Inspector of Prisons have been highly critical in relation to prison officers of the recruitment procedure, which is done via zoom with no face to face interviews of the in-service training of those officers and in particularly of the assessment of in-service performance of those officers, where literally no records are often kept of any discussions with them.

So, my Lords, does the noble Lord, the Minister, accept that all of those issues in relation to staffing our prisons also need to be addressed to ensure that we have higher calibre staff less likely to make mistakes, including mistaken releases. including mistaken releases.

12:34

Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)

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The noble Lord is right that we are 100% dependent on the goodwill and ability of our staff. I think our staff have been heroic in the prison and probation service over the last few years, dealing what they've dealt with through Covid, early releases and so on. We expect a lot of them. We need to improve our training. That's why we have the enable projects, which is something that I worked on before I came into government. And also we need to really up our game on retention because what we don't want is to lose is really experienced prison officers.

And one of the things that is a challenge that I've accepted, I've given to myself and accepted to myself is before I was in government, I was running a company that was generally known as a good company to work for, and one of one of the things that I am determined to do is to try and instil that sense of direction in the prison and probation service. and probation service.

12:35

Baroness Blower (Labour)

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My Lords. My Lords, my Lords, my Lords. First of all, I would like to thank my noble friend for his characteristic frankness in the way that he's responding to these questions and his and his absolute commitment to make sure that the Prison Service works better than it has hitherto, and in particular, to thank him for the positive remarks about prison staff. May I just ask a question about the checklist, which I did welcome when we were asking questions about this last week? I assume from what we're saying here that this is currently a paper checklist.

And since we are putting, I think rightly, a reasonable amount of faith in this checklist, I wonder whether we could fast track making sure that that is in the right place in terms of digitisation. Everything else needs doing, but the checklist, I think can be a real could potentially be a game changer.

12:36

Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)

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My noble friend is right that the checklist is really important. It may sound like a pretty basic process, but it's absolutely vital. And at the moment it's actually a combination of paperwork and computers, and it's about inputting data. But one of the problems is, is that there are lots of different there are lots of opportunities to instil the wrong data. For example, a number of prisoners arrive to us with different aliases. How do we manage that process? So I do think it's a process of simplifying everything, simplifying the checklist, digitising as much as we can, using AI and other technology wherever it is possible, but also listening to the staff on the front line who are doing this job.

This should not be a head office driven change. It needs to be. After careful thought and discussion with those who do the job day in, day out.

12:37

Lord Hayward (Conservative)

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In the PMQ on Monday. The noble Lord, for whom I have enormous respect, was asked by myself two questions. He was then reminded by Lord Young of Cookham that he hadn't answered one of the two questions. Much of the discussion this morning has related to moving away from a paper driven system to something of more technology, he answered Lord Leong by saying that he would write to me and Lord young, giving details of the timing.

When officials were first notified of the accidental release. Can I suggest that he moves away from the paper driven solution he suggested at the time of writing to me by actually asking his officials either to send me an email or picking up a phone, because as yet, I've not received any response.

12:38

Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)

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I thank the Lord for speaking to me after the debate a couple of days ago, and you quite rightly asked me to phone you, and I will phone you as soon as I have that correct information. One of the things I'm very aware of, and get told regularly by officials, is to make sure that I get it 100% right.

12:38

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Labour)

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My Lords.

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Great deal of expertise demonstrated in the questions which we've heard earlier today. Expertise from the MoJ over the last 20 years, people dealing with last 20 years, people dealing with offenders. And I wanted to pass my own experience as a sentencing own experience as a sentencing magistrate when I started 20 years ago as a sentencing magistrate, and I was sending something, someone to I was sending something, someone to jail, I said to them they would be released at the halfway stage.

And, released at the halfway stage. And, and I said, and that was something and I said, and that was something I was unable to say over a period, as the complexity grew of the various sentences which were various sentences which were available. So then towards the end of my period as a magistrate, I of my period as a magistrate, I said, you will be released at the. When the governor says you can be When the governor says you can be released after the calculations have been made, can I ask my noble have been made, can I ask my noble friend whether it is a reasonable aspiration that with all this technology and trying to review these, the systems that at the point of sentence, the sentencing judge or magistrate should be able to say what the release date is.

Yeah.

12:39

Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)

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I thank my noble friend and former room buddy for the question. And I think one of the points of conversation we have a lot in the Ministry of Justice is the tie up between the courts and prisons. And what I'm hoping for from the sentencing bill is the is making the whole process much more simpler, because I think it's not just important for offenders to know when they're going to be released. It's also important for victims and their families, too.

So the clearer we can be and the the faster that information can get to magistrates, judges, offenders, victims and their legal teams, the better.

12:40

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Conservative)

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To the comments made earlier this week by the noble Lord about Wetherby Young Offenders Institution, which served the constituency. There wasn't in my constituency I visited a number of years ago and was appalled to see that the respect for prison officers was taken away from them. They were being asked to wear tracksuits, which didn't distinguish them from the young offenders that they were trying to hold to account. So does the noble Lord, the Minister, not agree that when there have been issues like that actually harming the morale of prison officers, that needs to be addressed on an ongoing basis.

12:41

Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)

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Young offenders institutes. I've been to a number over the years and they are quite challenging, and I would even describe it harrowing places sometimes, but also places of hope. And a number of the foster children who I live with when I was growing up. Sadly, a few of them ended up in young offenders institutes and then came back to us. And in fact, one of them still works in attempts and business is doing is doing very well. But the I think what is important is to understand what what was said in the Rademacher review, which was a look into some of the behaviours and actions that that happen in HMP, and some of them we are not proud of the way individual staff treat each other, and I think we should have a culture of care, because what we are trying to do is to rehabilitate people.

So when they leave, they don't come back.

12:42

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (Green Party)

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The noble or the Minister referred to the importance of experienced prison officers. Yet prison officer unions point out that 2600 prison staff face deportation because the Home Office has raised the salary threshold to £41,700. Is the noble Lord the Minister talking to the Home Office about this situation and seeking a solution? solution?

12:42

Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)

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noble Baroness is right. It's you know, these these staff are doing fantastic work. We are lucky to have them. But also it's important that net migration comes down. So what we're doing is we're supporting those colleagues and having ongoing conversations.

12:42

Lord Browne of Ladyton (Labour)

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Lord.

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Conscious that releasing error is but one of many complex is but one of many complex challenges that managing our prison estate throws up. May I ask in that estate throws up. May I ask in that context, my noble friend the Minister, whether he has a plan to Minister, whether he has a plan to tackle the scourge of drones coming into our prisons, delivering drugs, phones and weapons, and in so doing, phones and weapons, and in so doing, making our prisons less safe.

You should know that the UK military should know that the UK military are actively are developing and implementing contra drone capabilities, and that recently they have been granted authority to bring down drones that were unauthorised and a number of which had been identified over sensitive had been identified over sensitive military sites. If he is not already doing this, may I suggest already doing this, may I suggest to him that he has a conversation with our noble friend Lord Cocker, and that they form an alliance to and that they form an alliance to find a way of dealing with this scourge, using the capabilities

12:44

Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)

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scourge, using the capabilities that are being developed. My noble friend is right to

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My noble friend is right to bring up the subject of drones, and a day doesn't go by in my office without the subject of drones coming up. And even yesterday I had a meeting with a number of governors of our high security prisons and drones is a real concern for them. It is not just a concern for the governors, it's a concern for staff and actually for a lot of prisoners, too, because what drones bring in, yes, the physical thing is drugs and phones and weapons, but actually what it does, it brings in violence because whenever you have drugs in a prison, you end up with violence.

So we are taking a very proactive approach. Some of the things we're doing are to do with national security. So I can't mention that. But the the links that we have with military colleagues are absolutely vital. And also as the technology changes so quickly, we need to make sure we run very safe prisons. So there are a number of things that we're doing that are starting to make a difference, but it is something that is very much on our list of

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concern. convenient. Moment for any noble Lord who

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Moment for any noble Lord who wishes to leave the chamber. So to

12:45

Debate: Government’s economic and taxation policies on jobs, growth and prosperity. Lord Elliott of Mickle Fell (Conservative)

A A motion A motion for debate. The impact of economic and taxation policies, the Lord Elliott

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of micklefield. Yes. My Lords. I beg to move the motion

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I beg to move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. It's a privilege to lead today's debate on the impact of the government's economic and taxation policies on jobs, growth and policies on jobs, growth and prosperity. May I begin by noting an absent friend? I am saddened an absent friend? I am saddened that the coming budget will be the first 1 in 35 years that will take place without the thoughtful and place without the thoughtful and perceptive comments of the late noble Lord, Lord Desai.

Like the noble Lord, the Minister I studied noble Lord, the Minister I studied at the London School of Economics in the 1990s and was taught by Lord in the 1990s and was taught by Lord Desai. I am sure he would have spoken in this debate, and I know the whole House will greatly miss the whole House will greatly miss his contribution. At the heart of today's debate is the quest for today's debate is the quest for economic growth, and today's growth figures are not encouraging, suggesting that the economy shrunk by 0.1% in September and GDP per by 0.1% in September and GDP per capita is flatlining or possibly falling.

Since the figures are calculated using population calculated using population estimates from three years ago in 2022. In the year 2000, when the noble Lord, the Minister, was working as a special adviser in the Treasury, and I was a humble researcher, working for the late for the noble Lord Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate. Economic growth was 3%, taxation was 33% of GDP, public spending was in surplus and we were paying down the national debt. Earlier this year, I asked Sir Tony Blair what he ascribed that economic miracle to.

He was quite clear. It was down to the economic foundations laid down in the 1980s, and his decision not to tinker with the fiscal plans laid out by the noble Lord, Lord Clarke of Nottingham. The story since 2007 has not been so rosy. Our average real GDP growth has been 1.3% per annum, with an average population growth of 0.5 0.7% a year. This equates to a measly rise in GDP per capita each year of just 0.6%.

This means that living standards have stagnated. For many, this means millions of personal recessions where people have become worse off year by year. In contrast, over the same period, the average American has gone from being 10% richer than the average Brit in 2007 to now being 40% richer. It's a hope around the corner. I fear it isn't. Recent World Economic League table projections of GDP per capita by the centre for Economic Research paint a stark picture of where the UK is headed in 2030 will be poorer per capita than Lithuania, in 2034 will be worse off than Poland, and in 2043 will be poorer than Turkey.

That's the path we're on, and that's why today's debate is so important. Fundamentally, we all agree on all sides of the House on the need for economic growth and boosting living standards and prosperity, kick starting economic growth is one of this government's five missions. The Prime Minister put wealth creation at the heart of his manifesto, and the Chancellor says that economic growth is the government's number one mission. But it's clear that the government lacks a comprehensive plan. I agreed with what a senior Labour figure said in a podcast recently, where they suggest the Chancellor needs to use the budget to present, and I quote, a growth plan for the long term, turning public services round and making them better.

It has got to be a plan that sticks, which lasts, which doesn't unravel in the markets or in the Parliament or with the public. In 48 hours. Those are the words of a previous colleague of the Minister, Labour's former shadow Chancellor, Ed Balls, speaker, on his Political Currency podcast on the 30th of October. I

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