House of Commons
09:34 - The House divided: - Ayes: 1 / Noes: 36 - Question accordingly negatived.
Adam Jogee (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)
I beg to move, That the House sit in private.
Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 163).
Heritage Public Houses Bill
(1 day, 15 hours ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate
Mike Wood (Kingswinford and South Staffordshire) (Con)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
It is a pleasure to be the promoter of this Bill, on a subject that not only matters deeply to my constituency, but is dear to my own heart. I know that for many colleagues, escaping Westminster to head back to their constituencies is usually the highlight of the week, so to see hon. Members forgo a Friday in their home patches to be here is deeply encouraging, and I thank all those who have taken the time to attend today.
As we have seen over the past few months, private Members’ Bills can come in all shapes and sizes—some extremely contentious, and others narrow and technical. When I was fortunate enough to come third in the private Member’s Bill ballot earlier this year, I was very briefly more popular than I can remember being in some time. I received all manner of helpful advice; some suggested that I take on grand, sweeping constitutional reform, while others suggested fixing something rather closer to home and entirely uncontentious, like dog grooming standards. I decided, however, that I wanted a Bill that could bring people together, and I think there is little that can bring people together more than the importance of our historic pubs.
As a past chairman of the all-party parliamentary group on beer, I confess that I have spent a little time inside our nation’s public houses over the years, conducting what I can only describe as exhaustive, selfless and entirely public-spirited research, if not a constitutional duty. But while I take my beer seriously, I take the future of our historic pubs even more seriously. Behind the warmth, conviviality and the familiar clinking of glasses lies a sobering reality. Today’s debate is not about party politics, because there is far more that unites us than divides us about this subject. It is about whether this Parliament is willing to step in and stop the wanton destruction of our shared history.
For centuries, the British pub has been the beating heart of our communities. Pubs are the social glue that binds our villages, towns, cities and suburbs together. They are places where friendships are forged, birthdays are toasted, wakes are held and where older, perhaps isolated, residents may have their only regular conversation of the week. Yet all too often the planning system treats these irreplaceable institutions as nothing more than convenient plots of land waiting to be cleared for speculative development.
We cannot pretend that this is an abstract, theoretical debate. We know the brutal reality because we saw it happen before our very eyes in Himley, which I now have the honour of representing in Parliament. Just over three years ago, an unbelievable act of destruction shocked the community, and the wider Black Country and Staffordshire, to its core. On the evening of 5 August 2023, flames engulfed the Crooked House. Built in 1765 as a farmhouse before becoming a pub, it had stood for over 250 years, rather longer than the present Palace of Westminster in which we are having this debate today.
Thanks to intense 19th-century coal-mining subsidence, the building settled at a bonkers 15° tilt—three times the lean of the leaning tower of Pisa. It was world famous as “Britain’s wonkiest pub”. A coin could be rolled uphill across the bar counter. Bottles appeared to defy gravity. First-time visitors would take one step inside and swear that the beer had gone straight to their heads. It was an extraordinary monument to the Black Country’s industrial heritage.
The fire was devastating enough, but what followed was an absolute outrage. Barely 48 hours later, before the ashes were cold and before investigators could properly inspect the scene, heavy diggers rolled on to the site. In a matter of hours, more than two-and-a-half centuries of history were flattened into a pile of crushed rubble without planning permission. The perpetrators thought that they could crush a building, fence off the land and wait for the world to move on, but they underestimated the local community.
More than 40,000 people signed petitions that demanded that the Crooked House be rebuilt. South Staffordshire council moved swiftly to serve a binding enforcement notice, ordering the owners to rebuild it brick by brick. That enforcement notice is currently being appealed. Staffordshire police completed an exhaustive criminal investigation and the file now sits with the Crown Prosecution Service, so the appeal against the enforcement notice cannot be heard until the criminal proceedings have been concluded one way or another.
Alex Ballinger (Halesowen) (Lab)
I thank my constituency neighbour for giving way. I remember the outrage from communities all across the Black Country after the pub was demolished in 2023. I share his outrage and that of the communities he mentioned. I notice that there have been difficulties with the process of getting it rebuilt. Does he have an estimate of when the fantastic heritage asset might be rebuilt and when the community can see the crooked pub again?
Mike Wood
As I said, it all depends on how long the Crown Prosecution Service takes to decide whether there is evidence to proceed. The last update I had was about six weeks ago when it said that it was still working on the file and was unable to provide a timeframe. Of course, the community is impatient, and the longer that this drags on the more cynical and frustrated people will be. While clearly the investigation cannot be rushed, we also cannot have any unnecessary delays. I say today, as I said on day one, that the local community is not going to let that go. The enforcement notice that the hon. Gentleman spoke of is legally binding, and the Crooked House must and will rise again from the ashes.
Yet as we pursue justice through the courts, we must ask ourselves the fundamental question: how on earth did the system allow this to happen in the first place? Fighting drawn-out legal battles after the wrecking ball has done its worst is nowhere near good enough. When an irreplaceable 18th-century landmark is destroyed, no amount of enforcement notices can properly recreate the original historic fabric of a building that has grown organically. We have a duty to fix the law so that no other community is robbed of its heritage in that appalling manner.
That is why I have introduced the Bill, which is backed by the Campaign for Real Ale and its 145,000 members as well as the Countryside Alliance and the “Save the Crooked House” campaign. Every single clause of the Bill is designed to close some of the legal loopholes so blatantly exposed in Himley.
Had the Bill been on the statute book in 2023, the Crooked House may still be standing today. It would have made a difference in four specific and possibly decisive ways. First, the Bill would put an end to secret sales. In 2023, the local community had no idea that Marston’s had put the Crooked House on the market until contracts had already been exchanged. It was sold off to buyers who clearly had no intention of running it as a pub. By the time the community found out and tried to do something about it, it was already too late. Clauses 1 to 4 would place a statutory duty on each local planning authority in England to compile and maintain a register of heritage public houses, covering venues that are at least 150 years old or which possess recognised local heritage significance, including heritage interiors.
Anna Dixon (Shipley) (Lab)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for introducing this interesting bill. My understanding is that local planning authorities already have powers to create local lists for buildings of local historic importance, and those can include heritage pubs. I am working to try to save the Old Glen House, one of our heritage pubs, and that has been suggested to me as an avenue for doing that. Does he agree that there is already provision under current rules?
Mike Wood
That provision is helpful but insufficient, partly because it relies on proactive actions by local authorities, which, as in the case of registering assets of community value, are often taken only once there is a clear threat, by which time it may be too late. Those local listings also do not offer the full protection that heritage pubs need. In particular, they offer little to no protection for heritage interiors.
We are finding that some pub interiors—particularly those from the interwar period and immediately after the second world war—are becoming rarer and rarer. Many of the things that people identify as typical of British pubs are being replaced by, shall we say, more generic dining layouts? It is really important to preserve those features of local heritage, but local listing does not typically help with that, nor does it offer the criminal penalties for unlawful demolition that I think are appropriate.
Clause 9 would provide that at the moment an owner intends to sell a registered pub, they must formally notify the council, which must in turn notify local Members of Parliament, ward councillors and the public so that secret backroom deals behind closed doors would become impossible.
Secondly, the Bill would introduce a genuine community right to buy, extending the positive changes the Government have introduced through the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026. Because the sale of the Crooked House was shrouded in secrecy, neither the community nor responsible pub operators had any real opportunity to put together a viable bid to keep it trading before it was sold. Under the powers of clauses 9 and 10, during the first 12 months on the market a registered heritage pub could be sold only if the buyer were to enter into a legally binding covenant guaranteeing that it would operate as a pub, or if it were sold to a community group. Community buyers would be granted up to 18 months to complete the purchase.
Alex Ballinger
That is a sensible suggestion. I like the hon. Gentleman’s proposal that the public should be informed about a potential sale—or, indeed, about any other changes listed in the Bill. How does he see such communication happening with the public so that those who are not on the internet can find out about a potential sale and stand up for their pub?
Mike Wood
Local representatives have an important role. Obviously, there are established methods for communicating public notices, but I do not think that anything will replace a good, well organised local campaign by the local Member of Parliament or the local councillors engaging their local communities.
Crucially, adopting the framework of the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026, if a community group cannot reach an agreement on price with the seller because the seller is demanding an unrealistic, exorbitant price, the price will be determined by an independent valuer. That means that rogue owners would no longer be able to price out local people with inflated asking prices designed purely to force a dereliction narrative.
Thirdly, the Bill establishes immediate interim protection against demolition. When local residents discovered that Crooked House had been sold, local councillor Victoria Wilson moved with great speed to submit an application for statutory listing—but the pub was torched and bulldozed before that application could even be considered. Clauses 5 to 7 resolve such situations by adopting a proven system that has operated successfully in Wales for years; I understand that the Welsh Labour Government introduced it 20 years ago. Under this Bill, the moment an application to list a registered heritage pub is submitted, it automatically receives interim listed building status. Overnight, it is treated in planning law as a listed building, stopping bulldozers in their tracks and stopping the interiors from being ripped out, while the experts do their work.
Joe Powell (Kensington and Bayswater) (Lab)
I pay tribute to the hon. Member’s campaign on the Crooked House. Will he elaborate on how he sees that system interacting with the asset of community value option? A campaign group in my constituency has made a pub an asset of community value. That has bought it some time, but of course it still has to raise the money for a bid. I am curious about whether he has explored that option, too.
Mike Wood
The Bill is very much designed to complement and work alongside the measures in the Localism Act 2011. I am proud that the then coalition Government introduced the system of assets of community value in the Act; this Government then extended some of those provisions in their English devolution Act. The Bill will not replace or supplant any of those measures, but it will recognise that communities have that power—they have generally gone through what is still not an easy process to navigate only when they have been aware of a clear and direct threat, by which time, as we saw with the Crooked House, it can be far too late for that to matter. The Bill therefore extends some of the provisions to cover all the heritage pubs on the heritage pub register.
Clause 8 includes a fair compensation mechanism for owners if listing is ultimately refused, ensuring proper balance and property safeguards—again, copying the system introduced in Wales.
Finally, clause 11 would kill speculative development at source. It creates a strict presumption against planning permission for change of use of any registered pub. Clearly, the national planning policy framework has raised the bar for change of use for heritage buildings and many pubs, but having the protection in primary legislation—clearly in an Act of Parliament—will be more effective. We have all seen cases in which our own local councils and planning authorities have looked at some of the provisions of the NPPF that we thought were safeguards against inappropriate development and decided that those were not as strong as we had imagined or as we had thought they were intended to be when introduced. The Bill overcomes that by putting the presumption into primary legislation so that permission cannot be granted unless the owner can prove that the property has been marketed at an independent and fair price and no pub operator or community bid has emerged. If the buyers of the Crooked House had known that they could never convert the site into an alternative development or waste depot, I do not think they would have touched it, and it would have remained in hands dedicated to pulling pints.
Alex Ballinger
The hon. Member is being very generous with interventions; I do appreciate that. I thank him for recognising that the national policy planning framework has made positive changes to the heritage pub standards and allowed them to stay open. Before he finishes, will he tell me if he has considered anywhere in his Bill upwards-only rent reviews—whereby landlords, potentially of heritage and other pubs, are able only to increase rents even if market conditions make it more difficult for pubs, putting a real financial pressure on the managers and operators of those pubs?
Mike Wood
That is not directly part of the Bill, but it is an issue that affects a large number of tenanted pubs across the country, whether heritage or more modern, and is certainly something the Pubs Code Adjudicator needs to look at. The Government may wish to consider whether that needs to change at the next review of the pubs code.
The hon. Gentleman may have been optimistic in suggesting that I was drawing to a close. Turning to the Treasury Bench and the Minister, let me say that I know how the machinery of Government works. I know that somewhere in the departmental briefcase today is a neatly typed briefing folder with the word “resist” stamped across the top. Civil servants and officials are famously ingenious at finding 27 procedural reasons why a sensible idea cannot possibly be enacted on a Friday from a private Member’s Bill that they did not think of. They will agonise over definitions and claim that existing powers are entirely sufficient, even when the rubble of our heritage proves that they are not.
I say in all sincerity to the Minister, who I know cares deeply about this issue, that she does not need to resist the Bill. This issue should be above narrow party divides. I do not want to panic our Liberal Democrat colleagues, but I make an open, unreserved—one may even call it comprehensive—offer to the Government and colleagues on all sides of the House to support the Bill on Second Reading today and let us work collaboratively ahead of Committee stage. If hon. Members across the House agree on the central premise that our historic pubs are precious, that there are gaps in the current protections and that we should act to close those gaps before even more valued heritage pubs are lost forever, then the right and proper course today is to grant the Bill its Second Reading and work with me to make it the best Bill it can be.
The Second Reading debate is when we discuss the principle of the Bill; the detailed scrutiny belongs in Committee. Let us be entirely realistic about the parliamentary arithmetic: under the Standing Orders, the Government will have a clear, 11 to six majority on the Public Bill Committee. They will have complete control. If Ministers feel that certain definitions in clause 12 need refinement, that the timelines in clause 9 need tweaking or that the council duties in clause 1 need streamlining, the Government have the votes to agree those amendments with ease. I stand ready to work with the Minister, line by line, clause by clause, to agree amendments that give the Government the comfort they need while giving our heritage pubs the protection the public demands. What we cannot do, and what our constituents will not forgive us for doing, is to walk away, hide behind procedural excuses and leave the door wide open for the next historic pub to be bulldozed on a Sunday night.
Nothing we do today can undo the heartbreak felt across my constituency and the wider region when the Crooked House fell, but by passing this Bill we can ensure that its enduring legacy is a legal shield that protects every beloved historic pub across England for generations to come.
Adam Jogee (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)
Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker—I feel like I have just won the pub quiz, being called first. Christmas has come early!
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on Second Reading of the Heritage Public Houses Bill, but before I do, I would like to say the name Donna Ann Reece. Donna was 38 and a constituent of mine, and sadly, Staffordshire police has launched a murder investigation after she was found dead at a property in Clayton in my constituency on Monday this week. An investigation is under way, so we have to be very careful in what we say, but let me say this: every woman in our country and across the world deserves to live freely and safe from the effects of male violence, and I will do whatever I can to make sure that happens in Newcastle-under-Lyme. I thank the emergency services for their diligence and pray that justice will be done. Of course, I also extend my condolences to Donna’s family and friends, who are grieving at this time. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Yardley (Jess Phillips) will no doubt call Donna’s name next March for International Women’s Day, but I thought it was important that I did so today here. Thank you for your indulgence, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Turning to the Bill, who doesn’t like a visit to the pub for cold refreshments of all kinds?
Adam Jogee
I do not know what happens in Kensington, but we like a cold refreshment in Newcastle-under-Lyme.
I love visiting and supporting the many excellent pubs in Newcastle-under-Lyme and our surrounding communities in north Staffordshire and south Cheshire. With that in mind, I thank the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood), my county colleague, for bringing the Bill to the House today. I am very pleased to see my old friend, the Minister for Homelessness, Democracy, Communities and Faith, in her place—old in length of friendship, not in age, just for clarity, otherwise she will never accept an invitation to come and see us in Newcastle-under-Lyme!
All of us know how important our local pubs are to knitting our community together, boosting our local economies and, importantly, making the very best of the hard work of Britain’s farmers and their produce. Newcastle-under-Lyme is home to a number of historic pubs, all worthy of a visit, all welcoming to old and new, and all with a strong recommendation from their Member of Parliament in the House today. Take the Old Brown Jug down on Bridge Street, the scene of many a gig played by my late uncle Colin Cooper and his Climax Blues Band through the ’60s and ’70s. It is a fabulous building that dates back to the mid-19th century. I should declare an interest, in that the Jug felt like my unofficial office during the selection campaign to be Labour’s candidate in Newcastle-under-Lyme.
Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
My hon. Friend rightly highlights that pubs are a venue for historic music. Does he not think that this Bill is rather limited in describing heritage as being simply about the building, when sometimes the events in the building are also deserving of heritage status? I think of the Cavern Club in Liverpool as another example, and I wonder if he has any more to say about the history of the particular venue he highlighted.
Adam Jogee
My hon. Friend, as ever, makes an important intervention. We all know how soulful and tuneful she is, so I am not surprised that she sought to intervene on that point.
Adam Jogee
Certainly not heritage. My hon. Friend is right. The Old Brown Jug did not just play host to my uncle Colin and the Climax Blues Band. It has played host to many a small gig, many a local band and many a young person almost as soulful and tuneful as my hon. Friend, and I feel sure that it will continue to play host to others in the future.
Anna Dixon
One of the pubs in my constituency, the Woolpack in Esholt, was the pub used for the filming of “Emmerdale”, if there are any fans of that show here. Although the building itself may not have huge heritage value, the pub has huge cultural heritage value, which ties in with what my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Dame Meg Hillier) said. Does he agree that we need to capture that wider cultural heritage value, such as that which the Woolpack in Esholt has for TV fans?
Adam Jogee
I am not sure what it says about me that the minute my hon. Friend said “the Woolpack”, I knew that she was talking about “Emmerdale”, although I suppose in my constituency, the Rovers Return from “Coronation Street” is a bit closer to home. She is right.
As she points out, pubs have played a role in so much of our culture, identity, heritage and history. It is important that we are comprehensive in our assessment and support.
To go back to my—thankfully—ultimately successful selection campaign to be Labour’s candidate in Newcastle-under-Lyme, it was, in many ways, the Jug wot won it. Also on Bridge Street, the Bridge Street Ale House, run by “Grum” Newbury, has an ace Irish music night on a Monday evening, a great quiz on a Tuesday, and good vibes all through the week. I am grateful to “Grum” for all he does to keep our town in the minds of local people looking for a good time, for being a destination that people want to visit, and for holding my feet to the fire on what feels like every day.
The Museum on George Street is a small and mighty tribute to the history of our community, and it is on the road to our southern border with our neighbours in the city of Stoke-on-Trent. Lastly, the Old Bulls Head, just up from my office, is the oldest pub in Newcastle town centre and dates from the 14th century. Only the Old Bulls Head is a listing building, and sadly none of the pubs that I have mentioned, and recommended to the House in the strongest terms, appear to be included on the list of assets of community value. That puts such key parts of our heritage at risk of owners moving on, the selling of local landmarks to developers or other businesses, and the sources of real community spirit being lost for ever. We cannot take risks or let that happen by default.
We must fill in the gaps to keep pubs from being sold off and demolished. Like many in my community, and I suspect like colleagues in their own communities and pubs, I would be devastated to see any of our public houses, and their hard-working staff, forced out of business. I am sure colleagues across the House would agree with that. Pubs old and new are places to learn, to enjoy, to understand, to share, to laugh, to celebrate, to console, to make memories and sometimes, I suspect, also to make mistakes.
Over recess, we were campaigning hard in the Newcastle town by-election, and I am delighted that Labour’s candidate, now Councillor Andy Fox-Hewitt, gained the seat on an 18% swing to the Labour party. With the by-election taking place in our town centre, my team benefited from being close to many of our excellent heritage pubs and waterholes for our post-canvass catch-up and note taking on casework. On more than one occasion we were in one of our historic pubs and enjoyed every moment of it. That election day, October 8 2026, my two Labour predecessors, Baroness Golding and Paul Farrelly, were out campaigning with us and, for old time’s sake, enjoying some of our heritage pubs.
Staffordshire, from my community in the north on the Cheshire and Shropshire borders to that of the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire in the south, on the fringes of the west midlands combined authority, is home to great people. We have a responsibility to protect and preserve the places where people spend time with others and find a real and meaningful community spirit. Everything is relative, however, and many pubs that will appear to be historic to an 18-year-old might feel less so to someone at the other end of the age scale. With that in mind, and with thought to the principles of the Bill and the importance of heritage public houses in my community and up and down the country—including, I am sure, in Bradford—I wish to touch on a number of the other excellent pubs in Newcastle-under-Lyme.
One of the greats is Mellards Bar in our town centre. I wish to give a shout out to all the team and extend my congratulations to them. It has just been named pub, beer and ale venue of the year at the Love Newcastle-under-Lyme Awards held at St Giles church last Friday. Mrs Jogee and I were there and enjoyed it immensely. It was amazing to see an old church—I think it was built in 1873, if not earlier—hosting an awards night. We were sitting in the pews, and there were lots of jokes, as you can imagine. Some people would probably enjoy being able to have a pint while sitting in a pew on a Sunday morning, but we will see whether Reverend Josh allows that to happen. I am delighted to have the opportunity to acknowledge the hard work done by all the team at Mellards, who have got the recognition they deserve.
Dame Meg Hillier
On the connection between beer and churches—and some religious orders—Hackney Church Brewery runs a bar as part of its mission in the wider community, underlining how historic institutions can come together as part of the cultural heritage of the beer and pub industry.
Adam Jogee
My hon. Friend is completely correct. My father, if he were here, would share stories about the Jesuits who taught him at school and how they enjoyed some of those different organisations and institutions coming together. I will probably leave that there.
In communities up and down the country, former churches have become pubs and homes, so there is an interconnected relationship between them. It is important that we do whatever we can to hold on to that heritage, celebrate it and talk about it, even if some parts of the country might not be as jazzy as Hackney South and Shoreditch. It is hard to compete—we will have to divide on that later, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Chris Murray (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that it is not just churches that can turn into pubs? I am reminded of the Tolbooth Tavern on Canongate in the Royal Mile in my constituency. It has previously been a centre for local government and a prison, and it is now a pub. Does he agree that somewhere that can combine government, politicians, alcohol and a prison may be a good idea for the future?
Adam Jogee
My hon. Friend makes an interesting intervention. The Edinburgh Festival takes place in his constituency. My wife and I, and some of my cousins, went to the festival earlier this year for the first time, despite both of us having lived in Edinburgh at separate times before my wife got stuck with me. I not sure if we went to the pub he mentions, but we went to many places during our two days in Edinburgh. I will resist the temptation to talk about prisons—that is a dangerous road to go down—but there is certainly a benefit to people socialising and coming together at the heart of our politics. Obviously, not everyone drinks alcohol, but that does not mean they cannot benefit from being included in the community spirit that underpins and drives most, if not all, pubs and communities up and down our United Kingdom. When I hear my colleagues from Scotland speak, I think of the Better Together campaign. My hon. Friend has made an excellent intervention that speaks to the strength of our United Kingdom.
Let me come down from Scotland and up from Hackney and go back to Mellards in Newcastle-under-Lyme. People of all ages come from far and wide to Mellards for “Alan’s Kwiz”, held every Thursday, keeping our good old fashioned pub traditions alive and providing an opportunity for Mellards’ faithful regulars to have a mid-week catch up and to learn, too. When I was there on “Kwiz night” a couple of weeks ago, one of the answers involved my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and another referenced the right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition—Alan just gave me a knowing smile.
As I have said in the House before, soon after my election to this place I launched my very own Newcastle-under-Lyme best pub competition. It was a timely and enjoyable opportunity to visit, celebrate and enjoy the pubs in our community. Each time we have run the competition, there have been nominations flying in from every corner of the constituency. It is always fantastic to hear about all the different things that local people in our community love about our pubs. In the end, last year’s winner was the Little Vic on King Street. I am conscious that we have to be careful about our security, but that is our local. It is an excellent place and I am often given casework when I am in there. It topped the poll among my constituents, and I put on record a big thanks to Sophie, who was doing some charity fundraising not long ago that involved putting cream on weak and useless paper plates that get thrown in people’s faces—I cannot remember what that is called, but colleagues know what I mean.
Adam Jogee
Custard pies—of course. Morecambe knows what I am talking about. Sophie went through the embarrassment of having the custard thingies thrown at her.
Lincoln Jopp (Spelthorne) (Con)
On the subject of custard pies, will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Adam Jogee
We will hear a great example about custard pies from the hon. Gentleman.
Lincoln Jopp
The hon. Member is making a very long speech, which is ranging widely, and I have slightly lost the thread. If this private Member’s Bill went to a vote, would he vote for it, against it or abstain?
Adam Jogee
The hon. Gentleman talks about custard pies—that was a very watery custard intervention. We like full-throated creamy custard here. [Interruption.] He says that I have spoken too long; I have not spoken long enough. You gave me an early Christmas present by calling me first, Madam Deputy Speaker, so I shall use the opportunity provided by you, and by my constituents in sending me here. If the hon. Gentleman sits back and relaxes for a little longer, he will hear a little more about what I think and how we should proceed. Whether we agree may be a different matter, but I am sure he will enjoy it none the less.
Our pubs play an important role in our international relations. The hon. Member for Spelthorne (Lincoln Jopp) is a shadow Foreign Office Minister, so I hope he will listen to this part of my speech with the attention he is known for. On Australia Day 2025, alongside members of Silverdale parish council, I welcomed the then Australian high commissioner, the hon. Stephen Smith, to the Bush Inn in Silverdale. As the House will know—because I suspect that, like the hon. Member for Spelthorne, it pays attention to everything I say in this House—our town was the birthplace of the sixth Prime Minister of Australia, Joseph Cook.
When Cook returned to the United Kingdom as Australia’s high commissioner here in the 1920s, he celebrated in the very same pub that we took Mr Smith to. My team and I and many other local people, not least the parish council, have traced Cook’s local story—rather unsurprisingly, he was a miner down the pit—and we raised a toast to his legacy. The only problem with Cook is that he started off in the Labour party and ended up as a Tory, but nobody is beyond redemption.
Another much-loved pub is the Gresley Arms on Alsagers Bank, which is known for having the best views in Staffordshire. The fantastic beer garden is an excellent way to spend a summer evening or, as my crew is used to, a final stop after a long day of pounding the pavements, as we get to enjoy one of our heritage public houses. The Albert first opened as a beer house in 1861—I hope this is enough heritage for the hon. Member for Spelthorne. It is run by Emma, and it is a great community pub. In fact, I took another Australian high commissioner to the United Kingdom, the hon. George Brandis, there on his visit to Newcastle-under-Lyme. I look forward to taking you to both pubs when you come to see us, Madam Deputy Speaker. That is just another example of how our pubs play such an important role in all that we do. I should say that the secretary of my constituency Labour party, Alderman Sylvia Butler, is a loyal and devoted champion of the Albert—long may that continue.
There are so many pubs that mean so much to our community. I would happily spend all day speaking about all of them, but I do not want to upset the hon. Member for Spelthorne any more. I welcome all my colleagues from all parties to come and join us for a pint back home in Newcastle-under-Lyme—it could also be a soda and lime, or anything else. Whether it is the Archer in Wolstanton or the Westbury Tavern—
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend is giving an excellent speech. He has talked about the many excellent beers available in his constituency. Does he know that elsewhere in the west midlands, he can find fantastic cider in Roberto’s bar, which is right in the heart of Halesowen? Can he talk about the other alcohol options that are available not just in heritage pubs, but in pubs all across the country? It is quite a surprise that the third-best cider pub in the country is found in Halesowen.
Adam Jogee
I am enjoying this, as I think has been said by others before. My hon. Friend makes a very important intervention, and he is right.
People can get all manner of refreshments at heritage public houses in all parts of the country. I am not sure what refreshments you would choose if you were having some of the Spelthorne watery custard, Madam Deputy Speaker, but you can certainly get a good, cold pint. You could also get a bitter lemon, which I know was ordered by the former Prime Minister, Mrs Thatcher, when she was at the Rovers Return. My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Anna Dixon) has gone, but we have talked about Emmerdale. I remember a clip of Baroness Thatcher at the Rovers Return in which she ordered a bitter lemon. That is just one example of the things people could drink there.
My observation of Mrs Thatcher does not go much further than that—I saw that quizzical look from my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (Lizzi Collinge)—do not worry. There is certainly a range of things. I am surprised that the Conservative party does not want to take a moment to talk about this, because it supposedly believes in choice. The great thing about our heritage pubs is that not only are there so many up and down the country that we can choose to go to, but, when we get there, the choices are infinite.
I am not a cider fan myself, but I wish cider drinkers in Halesowen and other parts of the west midlands very well indeed.
Let me take us back to the Archer in Wolstanton, the Westbury Tavern, the Swan in Betley, the Boat and Horses, and the Sneyd Arms on Higherland—the list goes on and on, as my speech is doing this morning, unfortunately for the hon. Member for Spelthorne. At the end of the day, our pubs are about so much more than somewhere to have a pint, a cuppa, a Coke, a juice, or the many other options that my hon. Friend the Member for Halesowen (Alex Ballinger) has allowed me to reference this morning. They provide an opportunity to see familiar faces and catch up. In other words, they make us feel like we are part of something—a neighbourhood, a village—and it is so important to our collective and individual happiness and wellbeing that that is so. We will all have heard stories from our communities of people who notice that someone has not been at the bar or has not been in recently, and that person is often checked up on. Most of the time, it is for a positive reason, but some of the time it is not, and without the connection and sense of community that pubs provide, people would not be able to do that.
I would like to say a couple more things about how we can support and protect our heritage pubs. The first is by ensuring that our town centres are safe and secure places to travel, to walk and to be in. Local people in Newcastle-under-Lyme are rightly furious that in recent times, antisocial behaviour and criminality have emerged far too frequently around the sunken roundabout and particular hotspots in town. I hope that all the relevant authorities, from borough and county councils to Staffordshire police, get a grip of this situation and ensure that all measures—including those introduced by this Government—are used and used quickly. Our town is a wonderful place to live, learn and work, and we cannot allow it to be blighted by crime and antisocial behaviour, not now and not ever. I am sick and tired of women in Newcastle-under-Lyme telling me that they do not feel safe going into our town; I do not want any woman in my family, or who I represent, to feel that way. We will not successfully protect and defend our heritage pubs if people are not going to spend their money there because they do not feel safe. I hope the relevant authorities have heard me loud and clear.
My second point is about the impact of incompetent decisions taken by local authorities, and what those can mean for celebrating and maintaining the heritage pubs that our towns are home to. Take the current situation on Brook Lane. Our town has essentially come to a standstill at rush hour in recent weeks because Brook Lane has been closed for several weeks, and is scheduled to be closed for several more. I wrote to Staffordshire county council—I suspect that the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, whose Bill we are debating this morning, shares many of my frustrations with that council. Even if the hon. Member for Spelthorne does not want to hear it, I know that my honourable county colleague will agree with me on this. I wrote to Staffordshire county council on 1 September, and I had to write to it again this week, because no letter has arrived in response to mine.
This is important, because Staffordshire county council has announced that it plans to introduce further road closures on surrounding roads. That is going to compound the situation, and will make it even more difficult for people to get to the Bridge Street Ale House I spoke about earlier, or to the Jug pub, not to mention all the other things that people have to do.
Anna Dixon
We had a similar problem with an accident on the historic bridge close to the historic pub in Harden. That road closure, which lasted for an extended period of time, and those roadworks had a significant impact on people’s ability to get to and from that lovely historic rural pub in my constituency. These disruptions can have a significant economic impact on our heritage pubs, and I agree with my hon. Friend that councils need to do a much better job of speeding up roadworks and getting them completed on time, as well as making sure that they think about the impact on our pubs.
Adam Jogee
My hon. Friend, with whom I almost always agree, is completely correct to point out the frustration caused to businesses and residents of communities, and the impact on the ability of pubs, shops and businesses generally to trade, survive and thrive, as a result of incompetent decisions made by incompetent people. From Shipley to Staffordshire north and south—if I can speak for the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire—we agree.
We cannot support our heritage pubs, nor can we add them to our list of assets, if they no longer operate because of—as my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley has pointed out—stupid decisions resulting from incompetence, or just nonsense from people who should know and do better. Our pubs are places where our communities are formed, and where we share stories of our past and our heritage from generation to generation. If we were to lose them, we would be losing a huge part of our shared history. Our historic public houses each have their own unique character and charm.
Dame Meg Hillier
Once again, my hon. Friend highlights that it is not just about the building, but about the events that take place and the conversations that happen, as he refers to obliquely. Major historic moments have happened in public houses—some of them were, of course, coffee shops at the time—so does he have any examples of such historic moments that he might like to expand on?
Adam Jogee
My hon. Friend is determined to make sure that the hon. Member for Spelthorne never speaks to me again, which may be a blessing, so I am grateful. She puts a question to me, and through me to all colleagues who may be thinking about how they can answer it in their contributions, and she is right. There are many places where people find a place to sit, to come together and to make things happen, whether it is to campaign against injustice and inequality or to call out councils for bad decisions. For example, there are the families campaigning on road safety in Newcastle-under-Lyme, particularly after the recent incident where a father was knocked down taking his child to school. An organisation has come together following their frustration and experiences. That is just one example. My hon. Friend can point to many places in her community where that will have happened. I look forward to her, when she catches your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker, being able to share some of the stories from her part of the world, as I know others will, too.
The important point about conversation is that pubs are so often home to or locations for that shared, connected thread of history, experience and understanding that goes through from the generations before us to today, as we seek to look to tomorrow. I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention and the chance to spend a minute thinking about the importance of those conversations and what happens behind the doors of our public houses, not least the older ones.
If I may, I will return for a moment to the Jug on Bridge Street, which, as I said at the beginning, was my unofficial office during my selection campaign. From a family perspective, it was like going full circle. My mother’s eldest sister, my auntie Carol—sadly late now—married my uncle Colin, who was the lead saxophonist in the Climax Blues Band, who released “Couldn’t Get It Right” and many other brilliant tunes that will have been played in pubs up and down the country, from Spelthorne to Staffordshire. I held on to that sense of connection with someone who had used the pub for years before me. I thought it was quite nice, and it was a source of comfort as I went through membership lists—you will remember this, Madam Deputy Speaker—trying to remember who I had and had not spoken to, what they had or had not said, what they wanted to say, and what I wanted to say back. The power of that connection and story is important. I am grateful to my hon. Friend, even though she is now on her phone—I tease—for giving me the opportunity to spend a minute thinking about that.
Our public houses each have their own unique character and charm, and we cannot let the generations to come to miss out on a crucial part of our heritage and our culture. This is the longest I have spoken since I was elected to the House, and I am annoyed that I did not write more, since I have the floor, but I extend my thanks to all those in every way who keep our pub sector alive in Newcastle-under-Lyme. They do so much for the community and our local economy. In many ways, our island nation home would be so different if it were otherwise.
Joe Powell
I appreciate that my hon. Friend may be drawing to a close, but as he is thanking people around the country who run these pubs, will he give special congratulations to the now more than 200 community-run pubs? There are co-operatives, too. These pubs are taken on by the community, who want to save their pub because they appreciate the value that it brings. Does he have any co-operative or community-run pubs that he might want to thank, or will he just join me in general in thanking that movement?
Adam Jogee
I could point to many excellent examples of that sense of community, but I am conscious that others may want to speak. I could not agree more with my hon. Friend, and he is right to raise that issue. It speaks to the people power of community, and I thank him for his intervention.
Our historic pubs are at the heart of our communities, and once we lose them, we rarely get them back. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire for bringing this Bill to the House today, for giving us the opportunity to debate these important issues, and for giving me a chance to speak about the excellent public houses, both old and new, in Newcastle-under-Lyme. I know that colleagues from across the House, and from across our United Kingdom, will do similar shortly.
We must keep working to make sure that our pubs are preserved and supported. As I speak in this debate today, I think of all the happy times I have spent with friends, family, loved ones and many a constituent across a pub table—happy times indeed!
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
Order. Before I call the next speaker, I gently remind Members that, although the custard pie references have been very interesting and entertaining, we are here to discuss whether the Heritage Public Houses Bill should have a Second Reading.
Brian Mathew (Melksham and Devizes) (LD)
I thank the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) for bringing forward this valuable private Member’s Bill on historic British pubs.
I have some wonderful examples in my constituency, including, among others in Melksham, the King’s Arms, which has been named by Historic England as a grade II listed building; the Bear, which was used as a coaching inn in the 18th century; and the Market Tavern. In Devizes, there is another Bear in the hotel on the Market Place; the Lamb Inn, which dates back to the 15th century; the White Bear Inn, which is grade II listed and reputed to be the oldest pub in Devizes, dating back to 1567, and which is allegedly haunted; and the Black Swan Inn. In Urchfont, there is the Lamb Inn, a thatched pub dating back to the 15th century. In Potterne, there is the George & Dragon, which, again, dates back to the 15th century and is recognised on the national heritage list. In Market Lavington, there is the Green Dragon, which dates back to the 17th century. In Sells Green, near Seend, there is the Three Magpies, another grade II listed pub, which has links to the canal. In Bradford on Avon, there is the Barge Inn, the Three Horseshoes and the Swan, which sadly closed in September 2023.
Adam Jogee
The hon. Gentleman mentioned that one of his pubs dating back to the 15th century is haunted. Can he tell us what it is haunted by?
Brian Mathew
I will not go into the ins and outs of hauntings, although they may be of great interest to the hon. Member.
In Box, there is the Northey Arms, a historic inn close to the Great Western Railway, and the Queens Head, which is famous locally for its music. In Colerne, there is the Fox & Hounds, a grade II listed pub, and the Six Bells, which dates from the 18th century. In Winsley, there is the Seven Stars.
Some pubs in my constituency have closed and then reopened with community support—the Hop Pole in Limpley Stoke is a worthy example—and others are in the midst of this struggle, such as the Ivy in Heddington, which has closed. The Somerset Arms in Semington has received support from none other than His Royal Highness Prince William, the Prince of Wales.
Historic pubs need our support. Moreover, all pubs and communities need an economic shift from the supermarket to the pub, and I hope that the Chancellor is listening as he writes his Budget speech. The people need the pub, and the future of our country needs these pubs.
Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) not only for bringing forward what is a complex, multi-clause Bill—it is quite brave of him as usually only the short ones are successful—but for the passion with which he spoke about the outrageous demolition of the Crooked House pub. I do not know his constituency, but I vividly remember the outrage that I and many people I met in the constituency felt about that being allowed to happen—that people could be that brazen and get rid of a major cultural asset.
The hon. Gentleman also highlighted pubs and planning in his speech. I will touch on that in a moment, but it is worth highlighting that in the City of London, on the edge of my constituency, there are many pubs that have been preserved through planning applications. Sometimes it is quite odd to walk down a major road in the City of London and see a little gap where there is a pub surrounded by high-rise glass-fronted office blocks. Sometimes we need to think about what we mean by heritage. Is it the pub building or the history of the site, and how does that fit in with modern planning applications? I will touch on that in more detail later.
In simple terms, this is quite a long Bill for what it seeks to achieve. I want to cover three areas. What is the Bill adding to the existing landscape to protect our heritage assets? What is the definition of a heritage pub? Although there is a definition outlined in the Bill, I think it is a bit unambitious, if I may say so to the hon. Gentleman, because, as I have already highlighted a couple of times, heritage is wider than just the physical building. There are new buildings—new entrants to the market, as it were, as my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Adam Jogee) eloquently put it—and heritage can mean different things, depending on where we are in the age range. Some of us will remember things because we have been around a long while, but for some people, because of the zeitgeist, the pub of the moment is what will become the heritage venue of the future. I also want to touch on assets of community value, which plays into my first point—why this Bill, when we already have a mechanism?
We already have many mechanisms in the planning system to protect pubs and other heritage buildings. To start with, proposals to demolish or change the use of a pub already require a planning application, and pubs are deliberately excluded from the relevant permitted development rights that various Governments have introduced to make it easier for development to happen. Of course, this Government have been a champion of making it easier to develop, while also trying to maintain protections. That is the challenge, and we have a Prime Minister who rightly wants to see more devolution. When I started as a baby councillor, quite a long time ago—over 30 years ago—I inherited a seat on Islington council from Baroness Hodge, formerly of this place. Under her leadership of the council, there was an excellent councillor called Maurice Barnes, who wanted neighbourhood services—services delivered within pram-pushing distance.
Now our Prime Minister talks about things in every postcode, and with the internet we have moved on from pram-pushing distance, but local devolution to the most appropriate level is right, and it is still a challenge. We want to devolve responsibility, but we want to make sure that planning is not held up unnecessarily. Nevertheless, we have permitted development rights, and proposals to demolish or change the use of a pub are already excluded from that.
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend is making an excellent point about the development of high streets and the new powers that the Prime Minister has given to restrict places such as vape shops and betting shops on the high street, removing “aim to permit” and so on. I am affected in my area—positively—by the number of microbars opening up in empty shops on the high street and by the positive impact they are having on our communities. Will my hon. Friend say a little more about how that is positively affecting her area?
Dame Meg Hillier
Absolutely. I am tempted to get into the second part of my speech, but I will touch on this because our railway arches in Hackney South and Shoreditch are becoming a real hub of diverse businesses. A lot of the breweries in my constituency are based there—I will not go through them all now—brewing on site and providing wonderful venues in a historic environment, but they would not count as heritage pubs under the Bill because they have not been around as a pub for 150 years.
Mike Wood
I thank the hon. Lady for the point she is making. She will see in clause 12 that one of the criteria given for what makes up a heritage pub is it having been around for 150 years, but the other part of the definition is if
“the local planning authority deems its building or interior to have a degree of heritage significance”.
It has been well established that “heritage significance” includes links to events and famous people in the past, so it will cover the type of event she was speaking about earlier. If she thinks that that definition needs to be broadened, will she work with me to find the right amendment in Committee to improve the Bill, so that it does what she and I want it to do?
Dame Meg Hillier
I make a heartfelt commitment to the hon. Gentleman that if his Bill progresses today, I will certainly work with him on that. Let us wait and see what happens in that respect. The challenge of a Bill of this length is that is quite complex to amend, because there are a lot of moving parts that already cut across, as I have touched on briefly. I will go into a bit more detail on that, but I will come back to the point about the vibrancy of modern pubs and breweries as they are making a really big difference in my constituency and up and down the country.
In planning terms, we had arches that were, unfortunately, sold off under the previous Government. When Network Rail was classified as a public body and therefore came under public spending rules, there was a gap in funding that previously would have been raised from private markets. To fill that gap, the Government of the day sold off the family silver, selling the railway arches that Network Rail owned—in my area, we also have ones owned by Transport for London—including a large percentage of them in my part of London and in parts of south London, including maybe in the Minister’s constituency. The Arch Company has a job as a landlord, and it inherited some very interesting businesses, which I will touch on in a moment.
Anna Dixon
In Shipley, we have an old tramshed, which was very successfully converted and is now the location for the SALT brewery, as well as a very popular bar, restaurant and gathering place. Again, it is not strictly within the definition of a heritage pub in the Bill, but the tramshed itself is a heritage space where SALT is now producing fantastic, excellent local beers, which I encourage all hon. Members to sample when they visit Shipley.
Dame Meg Hillier
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention.
With your indulgence, Madam Deputy Speaker, I do not want to get too much into every clause of the Bill, because this is a debate about its principles, but the important principle my hon. Friend highlights is that we can have heritage buildings that might or might not quite meet the definition. To be clear to the House, the definition the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire rightly highlighted is that a pub must be
“at least 150 years old and…used as a public house in the past ten years”.
There is still a debate there about something that maybe was a pub 11 years ago, so I think there is also a gap there. It also states:
“has been most recently used as a public house and the local planning authority deems its building or interior to have a degree of heritage significance meriting consideration in planning decisions”.
That is a debatable point, when a tram shed may have gone through further changes—different eras of planning may change things.
I remember that there was one warehouse in the heart of Shoreditch that, very unusually, had not been basemented in the Victorian era and had been in sole ownership for many, many years. As a result, when development occurred on that site, the fantastic Museum of London, now renamed the London Museum, brought in its archaeology department—as it is in London for every planning development—which discovered that there was land there where Shakespeare himself had performed one of his first plays. When the building was developed, the very ground where Shakespeare—the bard himself—trod, was preserved under glass. That shows that buildings move and change. So, without swaying too much into the detail, the definition is really important. It may be that the tramshed in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Anna Dixon) would qualify, but if some of the old tramshed trappings have been removed, with the change of use, it may not, so there is an interesting point there.
I will turn back to the point I was trying to make about planning and the existing measures, which is why I think this Bill may be over-layering that unnecessarily. Local planning authorities do, of course, have powers to use an enforcement notice for a breach of planning control, with the maximum penalty being an unlimited fine. The Crooked House, sadly, was a breach of planning control, and the fine did not resolve the problem, so there is a gap in current planning law. I am sure we all have examples in our constituencies of mysterious fires or things happening, whether in our time or in a predecessor’s time, because the penalty is not enough of a deterrent to somebody with deep pockets, who can simply pay that penalty and then go ahead and continue with the redevelopment. With the Crooked House, there were clearly people who had no regard for the punishment that might fall on them.
Joe Powell
I just wanted to give a hopeful example from just outside my constituency, where a developer knocked down the Carlton Tavern, and Westminster council ordered the pub to rebuilt brick by brick. It has now reopened and is proving really popular. It is possible to stay the course and get that enforcement and planning system to come in even when someone may have broken the law initially.
Dame Meg Hillier
Indeed. I have seen that, too. There is a property on Pentonville Road that was demolished and then rebuilt, and is now the headquarters of the Royal National Institute of Blind People. Looking at it, one can see the shape of the old building, but sadly it does not have all the character. There is nothing that quite protects a building.
Is an unlimited fine enough when it comes to buildings that are of such important heritage? Perhaps the Minister could respond to that. Even if the Bill does not pass today, perhaps there is scope for the Government to consider some of the thrust of the proposals and desires of the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, over which there is clearly some agreement across the House, in a future planning Bill. If the Bill were not to go through today, I would certainly be very happy to work with the hon. Gentleman on such issues. I suspect there may be wider support for that.
The other area around planning is about listed buildings. Pubs that are formally designated as listed buildings are afforded additional protection in the planning system, with listed building consent needed to demolish or undertake any works of alteration or extension that affect the listed building’s character or appearance as a building of special architectural or historic interest. Of course, failure to obtain listed building consent is an offence. Again, I ask the Minister whether the sanctions are enough where there is wilful action to interfere with buildings—the Crooked House is a terrible example of what can happen here—whether listed, as I have highlighted, or not. I think we need to consider whether there are any tweaks that could be made to future planning law.
As I hinted at in my interventions on my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme, I want to move on to cover what we consider heritage to be. As the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire rightly points out, he has tried to provide a definition in this Bill, and I am not knocking his attempt to do so. However, if we are talking about pubs, heritage is more than just the building, because pubs are not just a building.
I think about the pubs that are emerging in my constituency; they are our modern heritage. I lose count of the number of microbreweries I have in my constituency—I would be very happy to arrange a visit to some of them. We are the crucible of craft brewery. At one point, there were five craft breweries in one ward in Hackney Central, although the famous Five Points brewery—named after the five-point roundabout in Hackney Central, where the Pembury Tavern is based—has now moved to another part of Hackney. It is now based in Victoria ward, I think, where it has a wonderful premises and a brewery on site. It was originally set up by Ed Mason.
These modern spaces are not just about the space and what they are brewing. In many cases, they are working hard to bring in heritage hops, and some of my microbreweries have relationships with Kent farms. They are trying to create British beers with British hops. They are really working through how to retain the heritage of the beer industry, not just the venue. They are groundbreaking, but also looking backward historically. I think that that heritage is important, too. There could be challenges that mean that those pubs, bars and breweries find it hard to survive. We know all of the challenges that face our high streets, from business rates to energy prices—things that are putting hospitality businesses under great pressure.
I mentioned Hackney Church Brew Co., which is also under an arch, in Hackney central, near to the church itself—
Proceedings interrupted (Standing Order No. 11(4)).
Drought Conditions: England
(1 day, 15 hours ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Emma Hardy)
Before I turn to the statement, I would like to add my voice to the many others offering sympathy and support to the family of Sir David Amess in the week of the anniversary of his murder. It was always a real pleasure to work with him on the all-party parliamentary group on endometriosis. He is remembered very fondly.
With permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I wish to update the House on the ongoing drought in England. Drought conditions continue across much of England. Last week Yorkshire moved into drought status. That means that over 80% of England is now in drought, affecting around 50 million people. The south-east and south-west in particular have experienced their driest April to September in over a century, with low rainfall causing exceptionally low reservoir levels in parts of Cornwall, Devon, Dorset, Somerset, East Sussex and West Sussex.
As of 15 October, Wimbleball reservoir is approximately 16% full—its lowest recorded level for this time of year. Other reservoirs in the south-west are also at exceptionally low levels, including those serving the Roadford and Colliford water resource zones, and Ardingly reservoir, for example, is around 20% full.
As a result, yesterday the Government declared severe drought in the affected water resource zones around Wimbleball, Ardingly, Roadford and Colliford, and in west Cornwall. I have issued a ministerial direction to the Environment Agency to prioritise protecting public water supplies in areas affected by severe drought where there is an unavoidable trade-off between environmental rules and water supplies. That will allow water companies to keep more water in depleted reservoirs. The Environment Agency has also agreed temporary measures that will conserve water in Wimbleball and extend the resilience of public water supplies.
Severe drought is the highest classification in the Environment Agency’s drought framework. While customer supplies are not interrupted, declaring a severe drought allows us to ensure that proactive steps are taken to safeguard water before any disruption occurs. We have instructed water companies to conduct daily monitoring of reservoir and river levels and tougher water quality monitoring. The Environment Agency will increase compliance checks on businesses that withdraw water from natural sources to ensure that they are only taking permitted quantities of water. Local resilience forums will be stood up to enable quick and effective development of support if required.
Although water companies remain responsible for maintaining public water supplies and for taking action under their drought and emergency plans, we can all help by thinking about ways to use water wisely over the coming weeks. However, this level of drought is something that we have not experienced for decades, so it is right that the Government step up our support and work closely with water companies to protect public supplies in the areas affected.
Over recent days, I have met with those leading efforts to protect water supplies in affected areas, including Wimbleball. On Wednesday I visited Wimbleball reservoir, where I met South West Water, Wessex Water, local resilience forums and Environment Agency teams to discuss the actions they are taking to protect public water supply. Yesterday I met the chief executive of South East Water and representatives from the Environment Agency to review conditions at Ardingly reservoir and the response in the south-east. I have also spoken with Members of Parliament who represent affected constituencies and sent letters explaining the steps that they can take to support our resilience efforts in their local areas.
This week I chaired the first meeting of the Government’s new flood and drought resilience taskforce, bringing together over 50 stakeholders to strengthen the nation’s ability to plan for and respond to extreme weather, and I continue to oversee response measures through weekly national drought group meetings, to track that all necessary actions are taken to conserve water resources and maintain resilience.
While the record-breaking heat and lack of rainfall have put our water resources under immense pressure this year, we must take action now to prevent this situation from becoming the norm. We are at the start of a decade-long journey to a very different water system, including nine new major reservoirs to secure supplies. I will continue to take the action needed to protect essential public water supplies and, of course, I will continue to keep the House and Members informed as the situation develops.
Robbie Moore (Keighley and Ilkley) (Con)
I thank the Minister for advance sight of her statement. Today’s update reinforces what farmers, rural communities and households have known for months: England is in the grip of a drought, and the Government have been slow to react. Eleven areas are now in drought, with Yorkshire the latest to be declared. Ten water companies have hosepipe bans in force. Drought-related environmental incidents have already overtaken the totals of 2022 and 2025. This is the third drought in five years. It should not have caught the Government off guard, but here we are on a sitting Friday, listening to the Water Minister roll out an emergency statement, effectively saying she has been busy having meetings.
On 31 July, two and a half months ago, the shadow Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Louth and Horncastle (Victoria Atkins), wrote to the Environment Agency setting out six practical steps. Ministers have since said that they will adopt some of them, which is welcome, but it is highly surprising that in this statement from a Minister in the Department that represents food policy, there was not one mention of the impact the drought is having on our farmers and our growers. Why was that?
The key questions remain. The Government talk a big game about their new water Bill and taking back public control, yet the primary action announced today is instructing water companies to conduct daily monitoring. Does that mean they have not been doing that to date? If the national drought group has been meeting regularly since August, why are water companies only now being told to step up their drought planning? Why is the Minister willing to relax strict environmental regulations for water companies when they have failed to protect customer supplies through not undertaking significant investment in dealing with leakage and enhancing water storage? What does this say to the many households that are facing increased water bills?
The Minister highlights upgrades in investment and promises to build nine new major reservoirs, but she has also admitted that this is a decade-long journey. Our communities, our farmers and our businesses are facing severe challenges today. When exactly will the first reservoir be built, and will she release a timeframe for each? Some on-farm reservoirs are reporting being a fifth full or less heading into winter, yet farmers are still waiting for the reopened water management grant, and planning and licensing hurdles to building water storage remain far too high.
The Government announced a £65 million drought package, but what has happened to it? It was money already sitting unallocated in the farming budget. Most of it was poured into the sustainable farming incentive, and look what happened to that. Will the Minister update us on how she is making it easier for farmers to have on-farm reservoirs? The Opposition will work constructively with anyone serious about protecting our food and water security, but we will hold this Government to account when they fall short, and right now they are falling short—significantly short—of what farmers, rural communities and our households expect.
Emma Hardy
It is a shame that the Opposition spokesperson is not taking this as seriously as required. To respond briefly to his points about what this Government have done, there are many things I can do—unfortunately, I cannot make it rain, but what I can do is ensure that this Government are prepared, and that is exactly what we have been doing.
In February this year, DEFRA and Cobra ran a cross-Government drought exercise to test the current response arrangements, with lessons learned from the previous year. We have been planning for this since we came into government, because this Government actually believe that climate change is real. We are not a Government of climate change deniers. We are not a Government who wish to repeal the Climate Change Act 2008 and think that when it is sunny, we should just enjoy more barbecues.
This Government have been preparing for drought since I became Water Minister. In February, we ran the cross-Government exercise, and we have been working with water companies on emergency drought measures. Last winter, a year ago, regulators and water companies were already looking to take action because we know that this is the new normal when it comes to our weather. That is why we are preparing for it.
The shadow Minister asks what we are doing to support farmers, but it is this Government who are giving £15 million for on-farm reservoirs, it this Government who are making the planning system easier so that farmers can build reservoirs, and it is this Government who are looking into flexible abstraction so that farmers can fill the reservoirs that we are helping them build. Frankly, it was the previous Government who failed to prepare for any of that during their 14 years in office.
Olivia Blake (Sheffield Hallam) (Lab)
I thank the Minister for her statement. Despite what the shadow Minister said, this situation is unprecedented: the first time a severe drought has ever been declared in the UK. This is incredibly shocking for what has historically and famously been our wet island. Drought has just been declared in Yorkshire. Consumers in my constituency often raise the issue of leaks with me. How can we ensure that water companies address leaks before asking consumers to reduce their usage?
Emma Hardy
My hon. Friend makes an important point. That was another challenge that we faced when coming into office, but companies are now fixing more leaks than ever before. They are also increasing the number of engineers who can fix those leaks. During this review, £720 million is going into smart technology, including the use of metering.
One of the many reasons why metering is so important is that it helps customers to identify leaks; sometimes, they have not been aware of them. We are absolutely holding the companies to account, through the weekly national drought group meetings, to make sure that fixing leaks remains one of their priorities. It is one of the cheapest ways of ensuring that there is more water in the system.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
Dr Al Pinkerton (Surrey Heath) (LD)
The Liberal Democrats are deeply concerned by the declaration of severe drought across the south-east and south-west. It is a stark warning. We are in the grip of a climate crisis, and our water system lacks the resilience to address the water insecurity that that crisis is substantially causing.
The Government and water companies must act now and at speed. Families, schools and businesses deserve to know that their taps will keep running and that the current situation will not become the new normal. The best way to save water is not to waste the water we have. Water companies must act to cut leakage, follow drought plans and invest in resilient infrastructure. Bill payers should not pay for decades of under-investment while nearly 3 billion litres of water escapes through leaking pipes every day.
Farmers and food production face enormous pressures. Farmers may already have lost hundreds of millions of pounds to drought this year. The Energy & Climate Intelligence Unit estimates losses of nearly £5 billion across three weather-hit years. As I know the Minister knows, food security is national security. But the family farm tax, DEFRA budget cuts and the mishandling of the sustainable farming incentive are right now putting agriculture in jeopardy. Will the Government change course and back the Liberal Democrat plan for an additional £1 billion for the farming budget?
In the long term, we need greater water storage, recycling, transfers and sustainable desalination alongside the fundamental reform of water companies failing to cope with the changing climate. Britain’s farms have enormous untapped potential to store water. Outdated planning rules and inadequate support are holding them back, and the Government’s £15 million reservoir fund does not even scratch the surface. Will the Minister today commit to a national “call to store” programme to identify on-farm storage capacity, remove planning barriers and back farmers, who want to be part of the solution?
Emma Hardy
I thank the hon. Gentleman, who is absolutely right to highlight the importance of farmers being able to store water on their land. We have been working closely with the NFU on that through the national drought group. But as I have said, as well as building the reservoirs, we need to focus on how to fill them up. DEFRA, the Environment Agency and the NFU are doing really interesting work on regional water resource groups and how we can strengthen water companies’ livestock resilience; supply outages have been a big concern. They are looking at one of the approaches being developed by South East Water: livestock registers, so that water companies are aware of where water is needed for livestock. They are also looking at flexible and dynamic abstraction. One thing the farmers said to me—I support them on this—is that the strict abstraction licences they have are based on dates rather than the amount of water in the environment. We are looking to trial a much more common-sense approach to abstraction in areas so that, if it suddenly chucks it down with rain, we would allow them to take more water
As well as dealing with the immediate situation with the extreme drought, my ambition is to look at how we ensure our reservoirs are as full as possible going into spring next year. I am very keen to work in partnership. There is always a balance between thinking about public health—which must come first—and the environment, and ensuring farmers have what they need. That is why that national drought group matters so much: it brings together all the important players and we try to work through that, but there is also that issue at the front of my mind.
Anna Dixon (Shipley) (Lab)
As the Minister acknowledged, Yorkshire is now in drought, and at least part of the blame must be with the water companies such as Yorkshire Water who have failed to prioritise any long-term investment over short-term financial interests. Does the Minister agree that we need to use the upcoming water Bill to strengthen and change the way our water companies are run, so that they are run in the interests of citizens and consumers instead of profit-making companies?
Emma Hardy
I agree with my hon. Friend that we absolutely need to be putting people first; the Prime Minister could not have been clearer when he talked about public control. She is also right to highlight the lack of resilience we have seen building up. Many water companies have areas that are like islands within them, where they are unable to move water around the network—they simply do not have the resilience required. That shows a complete failure of the regulatory system of the previous 14 years that allowed the situation to develop. One really important thing we are looking at in the water Bill is having resilience standards so that a company can move water from a part of its network where there is an excess to a part where there is not. You would think, Madam Deputy Speaker, that they would have developed that very basic thing by now.
Mims Davies (East Grinstead and Uckfield) (Con)
I had a delightful soggy drive in this morning, so hallelujah: it has rained a small amount in my constituency. However, as the Minister knows, we are now in severe drought because of the low rainfall, record-breaking temperatures this summer and the impact of El Niño. It has now been announced that we are likely to get standpipes. Constituents with water-dependent businesses are already very worried and at their wits’ end. The fixing of leaks has been too slow.
Under the Secretary of State’s guidance, there is the possibility of emergency pipes between Weir Wood and Ardingly reservoir, which is now under 20% full, but that is not a long-term answer. I know the Minister is doing a huge amount of work and having meetings on this, but can she help to arrange aligning infrastructure investment plans between Southern Water and South East Water to deliver effective change and real peace of mind for my constituents, for whom the situation is of deep worry?
Emma Hardy
I recognise how important this is to the hon. Lady and her constituents. I made the promise on the call—I will reiterate it—that I want to work closely with all Members of Parliament who are directly impacted. I reassure her there are no current plans for the use of standpipes. Our declaration of severe drought means a slight change in prioritisation from the Environment Agency, which has that direction that public health must come first. It is looking at increasing monitoring. As a responsible Government, we are preparing for every scenario, but there are no immediate plans for standpipes. Our immediate request to all Members of Parliament is: please go and share the Let’s Save Water campaign, which is a national campaign that has been running all summer—hopefully some hon. Members have seen it—with the little kids in the blue tracksuits. I see some nodding; that is great. We should try to share that as much as we possibly can.
The hon. Lady is right to highlight resilience, which is a challenge with South East Water. Again, it is one of those companies that has islands and is unable to move water around. She was right to point that out as a problem, and we want to work with the company on that. Let us deal with this emergency right now, but what are its longer-term plans to have greater resilience? Those have to involve looking at the ability to move water around. She is right that that must involve working closely with Southern Water as well.
Matthew Patrick (Wirral West) (Lab)
I thank the Minister for her statement and the actions she is taking. It seems clear that climate change is playing its role, but, in her assessment, what else is contributing to this problem and what long-term steps are the Government taking to ensure that we are building up resilience to deal with the consequences of climate change for all of us?
Emma Hardy
To reiterate what I said at the beginning, we have had exceptionally low rainfall—the lowest in over a century—but my hon. Friend is absolutely right that we cannot keep saying that we expect our country to be soggy. We have whiplash weather now—we go from flood to drought. We could even be in a situation where I update the House on drought and then have to update it on flooding. That is the situation we now have in our country, which we expect to be turbocharged by how El Niño plays out over the winter and into the next year.
That is why we need resilient standards and why the water Bill matters so much. It is why water companies need to focus on public good rather than other priorities they may have had in the past. We need whole-scale change so that we have a system that is fit for the future, rather than the one we have at the moment, which seems to be based on water companies hoping that it might rain, which is simply not good enough. We are determined to change that through our Bill.
Sir Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)
The Minister is doing her best in very difficult circumstances. Does she agree that one of the problems is that over recent years the Government have given insufficient subsidy and support for adaptation measures and been obsessed with subsidising windmills and solar panels, which will not do anything to deal with the real problems on the ground that we are experiencing?
Emma Hardy
As a Member of Parliament for Hull, where the Siemens wind turbine factory employs lots of local people, I think wind turbines are a great idea. More seriously, in response to the hon. Gentleman’s question, adaptation is hugely important, which is why we need greater resilience in the system. We keep saying “the new normal”, but going between extremes of flood and drought is now the normal. Believe it or not, I am giving this statement on drought in Flood Action Week.
The hon. Member is right: we need to look at adaptation. That is why it is important to have conversations with the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government about new home standards and water efficiency. This is a cross-Government issue, not just a DEFRA issue. That is why it was great to have a Minister from the Department for Transport, MHCLG and the Cabinet Office as well as a DEFRA Minister at the flood and drought taskforce this week. Resilience is an everyone problem and an every-part-of- Government issue.
Kevin Bonavia (Stevenage) (Lab)
I thank the Minister for her serious statement setting out the gravity of the situation this country is in. It is a bit rich for the Opposition to say that the Government are not doing enough in the face of what this country is up against when they had many years to build not just one, but several reservoirs, as our Government are now talking about. Will the Minister give the House the commitment that the Government will do all they can to make these major projects happen?
Emma Hardy
I can absolutely give that commitment. It is hugely important. It is, frankly, shocking that we have not built a new reservoir in years, developed any new sources of water or looked at desalination. It is an abject failure to prepare and develop the resilience this country needs. I am absolutely determined to change that. The basics of being able to move water more easily around the country and store it when it rains are the least the public expects. It highlights again that they were terribly failed by the previous Government.
Lincoln Jopp (Spelthorne) (Con)
I thank the Minister for her statement. Can I be helpful? I have half of London’s drinking water in my constituency. While some benefits of floating solar are well known—they are twice as efficient as land-based systems and have none of the opportunity costs of putting solar panels on agricultural land—one of the less well-known benefits is that it reduces evaporation by 70%. I did not notice the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero in the list of ministries in her taskforce. Will she work further across Government to encourage water companies to install floating solar? Some farmers are doing that where they have planning permission for reservoirs.
Emma Hardy
I thank the hon. Gentleman. [Interruption.] I have just seen a good nodding from the Minister for Energy, and he is absolutely right to say that putting floating solar across reservoirs helps with evaporation. I thank him for raising that point, and I am pleased that my colleague also heard it.
Dr Peter Prinsley (Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket) (Lab)
Bottled water businesses are worth billions of pounds, yet when I was a child nobody drank bottled water and I have often wondered why that is. Does the Minister agree that whatever the drought situation, tap water for drinking must remain the very highest priority?
Emma Hardy
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend, and I have given the ministerial direction to prioritise public health and public water supply over anything else. Our drinking water is rated one of the highest in the world, so people can guzzle and enjoy it. It is super nice in Yorkshire, where it tastes that little bit better than in other parts of the country. Members should enjoy a nice glass when they get home.
Edward Morello (West Dorset) (LD)
2026 will be the hottest year on record, and in all likelihood it will also be the coolest year that we will experience going forward. This is climate change, this is now the norm, and it is clear that our water systems, infrastructure and water companies are failing us. South West Water lost 107 million litres a day last year, which is equivalent to more than 100 litres per customer every day. Since 2013 it has received £40 million a year from central Government, while more than £1.5 billion has been paid out to shareholders in dividends. What have customers and my constituents got? Higher bills and sewage. They are angry, I am angry; they are fed up, I am fed up. The water Bill is a huge opportunity finally to start fixing the problem. Will the Minister support the Liberal Democrat proposal for a new mutual ownership model, and will she please consider my proposal for a national rainwater management strategy?
Emma Hardy
I absolutely hear how angry and disappointed the hon. Gentleman is with the efforts and attainment of his water company. As I have said, water companies are putting more into leakage, but he is right to hold them to account and ensure that they deliver further and faster for his residents. I support him wholeheartedly in doing that. As the Prime Minister has said, this Government will be relentless in giving people and places what they were promised 10 years ago, which is ownership and control. As he said, people were sold the message of taking back control by the very people who gave away everything that was previously owned by the public. This Government are struggling to reverse the legacy of the 1980s, but we are determined to do that, and for our water Bill to right the wrongs that were delivered through Thatcher and the Conservative party.
Lizzi Collinge (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Lab)
Not many people know that the Westmorland part of my constituency includes part of the Yorkshire Dales national park, so to see our neighbours in Yorkshire going into drought, and a lot of the rest of the country in severe drought, is very worrying. I welcome the statement about protecting public water supplies. Does the Minister share my disappointment that we continue to see in this House arguments against tackling climate change, which is fundamentally the cause of the drought?
Emma Hardy
I could not agree more with my hon. Friend, and it is frankly astonishing when we are seeing the impact of climate change with our own eyes. It is there in front of us. We have had the driest summer in over a century, yet still some people think that climate change is not real. We are going into an El Niño year where there is a higher risk of flooding. We have already talked about the whiplash weather we are experiencing, and I find it unbelievable that people do not think that climate change is a real thing, or that we should be taking action on it. We absolutely need to because it is impacting every one of our constituents in every part of their daily lives. It would frankly be a dereliction of duty if we did not take it seriously, and I am pleased that—thank goodness!—we have a Government who are not a Government of climate deniers, unlike many of the Opposition parties.
Heritage Public Houses Bill
(1 day, 15 hours ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate
14:25 - The House divided: - Ayes: 13 / Noes: 36 - Question accordingly negatived.
Dame Meg Hillier
I was talking about Hackney Church Brew Co., and many of the other independent breweries underneath the arches.
Adam Jogee
I am conscious that I have spoken a lot, but before my hon. Friend was interrupted by the statement she said that she would like to arrange for Members of the House to visit one of her breweries. My hon. Friend the Member for Kensington and Bayswater (Joe Powell) has said that he will happily get the first round, so may I encourage my hon. Friend to get arranging sooner rather than later?
Dame Meg Hillier
Everybody is always welcome to Hackney South and Shoreditch—it is the centre of the universe, although others may disagree with me. It is only half an hour by bike or public transport from this place, so I highly recommend it—a good night out will be had by all!
The new breweries and pubs are bucking the trend in hospitality, and the archway areas are becoming hubs for other businesses. High streets can be challenging, but in Hackney our high streets still do reasonably well, partly because although Hackney is often described as being very hip, cool and expensive—and that is true—it is still achingly poor. One in two children live in poverty, although thanks to the Government’s changes on child poverty hopefully that will reduce, and nearly 60% of people live in social housing, many in overcrowded conditions. The arches are part of what might be called “new Hackney”, but they build on the old traditions.
Saint Monday is an innovative brewery that combines brewing with heavy metal, so any heavy metal fans here can get a bit of real ale and heavy metal in the same place. Great Beyond taproom and brewery, another archway-based business, was set up by Ollie, Nick and John, three beer-loving friends. They do some amazing work and people can buy great Shoreditch and Hackney-made beer there. I forget which bar serves which beer—perhaps we need to do a crawl of all the ones named after Hoxton and Shoreditch? That alone would keep us busy.
The Howling Hops brewery brews on site as well, and I really like the 40ft Brewery in Dalston, which I go to every now and again. The name 40ft refers to that fact that it is based in two 20-foot shipping containers, so not arches this time. That would not reach the heritage standards set out by the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, but there is interesting new heritage coming through in our breweries. Many breweries offer tours, including Signature Brew and Five Points, so if people are thinking about gifts as we approach the festive season, I highly recommend a visit to Hackney and a tour of one of the breweries. This shows the modern culture that is coming through. Some of the breweries are in heritage buildings, and the arches have their own heritage, but the challenge would be whether they qualify under the provisions set out in the hon. Gentleman’s Bill.
I want to talk a little about assets of community value. When I read the Bill for the first time, I was trying to find what was specifically different about the provisions relating to assets of community value. The hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire outlined some of that in his speech, so I am now a little wiser to his thinking. Assets of community value were introduced in the Localism Act 2011. It provides communities with a route to nominate and retain any building or land, such as heritage pubs, that they feel
“furthers the social wellbeing or social interests of the local community”.
Local authorities are responsible for ensuring that those schemes are run in accordance with the legislation, as set out in part 5, chapter 3 of the Localism Act 2011 and the Assets of Community Value (England) Regulations 2012. That includes making decisions on whether a nominated asset meets the definition of an asset of community value, as set out in the Act.
Although I have no scepticism about the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire’s intent, which a lot of us share, I remain sceptical about the Bill. The Government are already strengthening the assets of community value scheme, which I am sure the Minister will go into in her remarks, through provisions in the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026. That will introduce a new community right to buy that covers some of the provisions in the Bill, including, from memory, clause 9 about how people can put in a bid to own a property. Communities will have the first opportunity to purchase an asset if it is put up for sale by its owner. They will have 12 months to raise funding and there will be an independent valuation process to ensure a fair price, so that negotiation is successful. That is close to a lot of the provisions in today’s Bill, so he is welcome to intervene and tell me why he thinks his Bill is different.
Mike Wood
The whole point is that it really is not different—large parts of it are copied directly from what the Government introduced for assets of community value. As I said in my opening speech, though, in most cases community groups do not go through the quite complex process of getting the building facility registered as an asset of community value until there is a direct threat that they know about, as we saw with the Crooked House and as we may yet see with pubs such as the Macbeth in the hon. Lady’s constituency, which I do not think is currently an asset of community value. If those pubs came under threat, it would almost certainly be too late for the community to respond and get the community right to buy. This Bill would make sure that that right is available from day one for these really important historic pubs in the hon. Lady’s constituency and in mine.
Dame Meg Hillier
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that clarification. We have already talked with some passion today about the pubs, heritage buildings and heritage in our constituencies that we value, so that means that we need to push for them to become assets of community value.
I will give an example from my constituency: the Chesham Arms on Mehetabel Road, which was Hackney’s first ever asset of community value. That pub is 162 years old; it closed in 2012, and the owner at the time just assumed that it would be possible to turn it into flats. It is on a residential street—it is a traditional east London pub in a terrace. It is not very big; it is just a little neighbourhood pub, and when it closed there was an assumption that it would be easy for it to be redeveloped, but the council stepped in. At the time, the council was under Labour control—we also have an elected mayor in Hackney, although of course planning matters are not matters for the elected mayor—and it defended the Chesham Arms from redevelopment. It reopened in 2015; it is a real success story.
The hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire is right, though, because the challenge was that that pub closed and then became an asset of community value. Learning from that example and from the comments that the hon. Gentleman has made, we all need to be ahead of the curve on this. Whether it is a tramshed that is a heritage building and has become a pub, a pub that has been there for a very long time or a coffee house that has become a pub—whatever the cultural issues are—we can push for those buildings to be assets of community value in a wider way than the hon. Gentleman’s Bill allows for. I suggest to the Minister and all colleagues that we take today as a call to arms for us to implement the essence of the hon. Gentleman’s Bill, without having to go through a quite complicated process that I think narrows the scope too much. There is an opportunity for us to broaden our understanding of what a culturally rich heritage site is, and push for assets of community value to be more widespread ahead of a threat arising, as the hon. Gentleman rightly says.
I am not going to go through all the pubs in my constituency—we would be here for a very long time, and I am aware that other people want to speak. Needless to say, I would be very happy to arrange a tour at any point, and I am sure that the various bodies I have worked with over the years on beer and breweries would be keen to help enable that. In fact, when the current Chancellor was working in the Treasury, he was instrumental in changing the taxation of small breweries to make it possible for these craft breweries to exist—breweries that create many jobs in brewing and, of course, hospitality. They still struggle at times, but they are bucking the trend compared with a lot of our other assets, so as Members, we need to be more ambitious.
We do not necessarily need to legislate for everything; the legislation is already in place, and I think we are very capable of using the legislation we have to protect the assets that hon. Members have spoken eloquently about and defended. I am happy to continue to work with the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire on the intent of his Bill, but I do not feel that this is the Bill to support. I think we can deliver on his agenda without passing the Bill today.
Rebecca Smith (South West Devon) (Con)
It is a privilege to be able to speak in the debate that my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) has secured on the important topic of heritage public houses. I am very privileged to have 64 pubs in my constituency—there are a couple of Conservative clubs included in that number, which is worth mentioning. That is quite a few compared with some Members, who I know only have a handful. In particular, the more urban constituencies are not always fortunate enough to have as many pubs as constituencies that, like mine, are a nice mix of urban and rural.
Given the nature of my constituency, which in large part is made up of historic villages that have either merged into the city of Plymouth or have remained as very sweet South Hams or Dartmoor villages, we have a large number of historic pubs. They would have been stopping points for travellers, potentially travelling up from Cornwall through Devon and on to London, and a key part of the community, including in fishing and rural communities. Villages such as Noss Mayo and Newton Ferrers have four or five pubs between them. They are very small, and people would be shocked at how many there are, but I can reassure Members that they maintain a healthy trade. The Mussel Inn in Down Thomas is another key country pub that serves excellent food.
Plympton and Plymstock were villages before they were absorbed into the city of Plymouth. They have some very historic pubs, and I will touch on a couple of them shortly, but it is worth mentioning the village of Turnchapel. We proudly still refer to it as a village, but it is now an important part of the city of Plymouth. Turnchapel has both the Boringdon Arms and the Clovelly Bay, which are key parts of the community. Fortunately, they are being kept going by the marine autonomy work that is happening at a former Royal Marine base next door.
There is the historic Drake Manor in Buckland Monachorum—hopefully, Sir Francis Drake would have been pleased to be its namesake. Milton Combe has the Who’d Have Thought It, a classic thatched pub at the bottom of a hill in a tiny little village, which serves the most wonderful food. I always make sure to go there with friends just before Christmas.
We have a fantastic community-led pub in Cornwood that was recently shortlisted for one of the Countryside Alliance’s rural prizes and came all the way to the House of Commons. Although it was not a winner that day, we are very proud that it was nominated. The Old Smithy, which is not named after me, is a very good pub in Ivybridge.
Those are just a few of my pubs. Like others in the Chamber this morning, I will not name all of them, but I think it is was worth putting those ones on the record. It is also worth mentioning the names of such pubs. We have heard of Woolsacks and all sorts of historic names, and we know that even the bars in Parliament are named for specific historic reasons. I particularly want to mention the Skylark in the little village of Clearbrook. If anybody is ever on Dartmoor, they will hear the skylark tweeting away across the moors. What is so wonderful about historic pubs is that their names reflect something that is either historic or specifically tied to the culture of the local community. Such names draw young people into connecting with the history.
I want to make special mention of the community groups all over the country that help pubs to survive by sending people on walking routes around them, or by highlighting them through competitions. There is a thriving Facebook page called Plymouth on Tap, which runs a comprehensive competition for pubs in different communities and chooses winners. It is worth mentioning the volunteers behind such Facebook pages and websites, who do so much. Plymouth on Tap says that it is about:
“Mapping Plymouth’s pub history & fighting for the ones we’ve still got.”
I pay particular tribute to the organisers of that group this morning.
That leads me to the value of Members of Parliament running competitions. Like many others, I have run a pub of the year competition. I am delighted that the winner over the last two years has been a historic heritage pub in my constituency, the London Inn in Plympton St Maurice, which is an old village. It is a 16th-century grade II listed building, but can still muster enough votes to have won for two years in a row. I am adding some extra categories for the year ahead to make sure that other pubs can win, but Simon, the landlord, knows that I am doing that. Hopefully, he will push for the best pub in Plympton award, and maybe—who knows?—he will win overall best pub as well.
I come back to my point about the importance of heritage pubs and the stories they tell. As I have alluded to, the village of St Maurice was along a major route to London. Who would have thought that little old Plympton St Maurice was a stopping point on the way? It has an incredible history that I will not go into fully, but perhaps I should apply for an Adjournment debate on it at some point. Plympton St Maurice was the home of many fine 17th and 18th-century artists, so if anybody is waiting to speak and wishes to look up the history of Charles Eastlake or Joshua Reynolds, they will see that the London Inn may well have been frequented by them, as they were schoolboys at Plympton grammar school and then went on to be leading figures at the Royal Academy and the National Gallery. If anyone is bored this morning, they can have a look while they are listening. The London Inn sits below a ninth-century castle. Such pubs are historic not just for the buildings themselves, but for their heritage, because of the communities that they sit in. The fact that a pub is so old usually means that the community around it has been there for that long as well.
That leads me to another heritage pub, the Union Inn, which is also in Plympton—as the House can tell, Plympton is a very old part of my constituency. What I love is that these buildings do not get hindered by the listings that they might have, and the fact that they are not allowed to make changes to their interiors. In the Union Inn’s case, it creatively uses its garden space, which is now the home of the Plympton Royal British Legion branch. I have attended several ceremonies with the RBL in the garden of that historic pub. Although the rooms are small and it is incredibly cosy inside, it does have land around it. I was privileged to attend a D-Day event and a VE Day commemoration event, and I know the pub will appreciate that mention this morning. Those are two clear examples of the strong community roles that these heritage buildings—by nature often constricted because of their physicality—can play in their neighbourhoods.
It is worth just touching on why these heritage pubs need saving in the first place and why we need to look at this legislation today. Given the nature of their fabric, it can be harder to bring in the numbers or to diversify into serving a carvery or a particularly complicated food menu. For these heritage buildings with tiny little rooms and steps everywhere, serving food in the way that a lot of modern, purpose-built pubs do will be particularly difficult.
We know that pubs are facing considerable challenges, given the economic climate and the tax increases that the Government have levelled on them, whether it is the increases in national insurance, the minimum wage for young people or business rates. Government Members will say, “We’ve done some work on business rates for pubs,” but the damage has already been done in many cases. That is yet another reason why we must protect these heritage pubs by enabling them to maintain their roles within the community and by ensuring that they cannot be turned into houses.
I recently met a constituent who is starting on the journey towards securing a community asset certification for a local pub that has been sold. Ultimately, the hoops that have to be jumped through are incredibly difficult. I will not name the pub, because I do not want to ruin what my constituent plans to do and the work going on in that community to do things properly, but it has highlighted the concern in communities where these pubs exist that they could lose their public house designation and see a change of use. What my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) is doing through this legislation, which builds on what is already there, is important. The hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Dame Meg Hillier) has highlighted the legislation that exists already.
Ultimately, nobody wants to see what is often a large building in a village turned into flats or the equivalent. I grew up in the city centre in Plymouth in a community called Greenbank, which is not in my constituency, but is just outside. It is historic. It was once fields, and it has seen a lot of building over the years. I am not sure we could say it was famous for this, but on pretty much every corner was a pub. If I walked to school, I would walk past probably four or five small neighbourhood community pubs in among the terraced houses. One reason for that was that the neighbouring communities were owned by Brethren family, who would not allow any pubs in their area. That meant that Greenbank, where I grew up, made up for it in numbers, and there were plenty of pubs for anybody who lived in St Judes, Hyde Park or Mannamead in the constituency of the hon. Member for Plymouth Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard).
However, because those pubs were not assets of community value, but were just neighbourhood pubs, they have, pretty much without exception, been turned into student accommodation—I think the Providence Inn, around the corner from where I grew up, is effectively now somebody’s living room. There is nothing worse than seeing historic pubs that were part of a Victorian neighbourhood turned into student accommodation. Indeed, the one at the end of the road that I grew up on—it would have been built as an inn on the corner of a crescent—is now student accommodation. What was once a lounge bar and a place where people could play darts or pool, or pop in and have a drink with community—people used to have friends in these pubs that they would go and see—have all been turned into properties that people are now living in.
Students are great, but they do not live there the whole year, and instead we have lost that community asset. That is why this legislation for heritage public houses would be so helpful. It would ensure some control over the changes within a community that might affect the very fabric of what is going on in that area.
I am not going to speak for much longer. My hon. Friend the Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire is well known for his love of a good ale and is a big supporter of the APPG for ale—is it ale? I am not an ale drinker, so I never quite know the name. I drink the odd beer, but I am not a big warm ale fan. I would rather be in a nice country pub drinking a glass of wine.
Rebecca Smith
My brother’s Labrador is yellow, so I did not quite get the joke, but I like the value of it.
I believe that my hon. Friend has raised some valuable points, and his Bill offers some smart safeguards. This is an important debate, because one of the things that makes the United Kingdom so special is the culture we have of community and historic pubs. We know that they were the coaching inns of the past—places of refuge and safety that people could stop at if they were travelling on long journeys—and they are a particularly British institution. I am very grateful to have been able to contribute to this debate. For those Members who have not yet clocked it, I obviously love a bit of history, so it has been wonderful to be able to talk this morning.
Linsey Farnsworth (Amber Valley) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) on being successful in the private Members’ Bill ballot. Having been fortunate enough to secure a place in the ballot myself in the last Session, I know what a privilege that is, but I also know quite how much work follows.
My private Member’s Bill concerned football. Between me and the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, we have managed to cover two of my husband Martin’s favourite things in life: football and pubs. However, two of my favourite things are Amber Valley and its history, so it gives me great pleasure to have the opportunity to speak about it today. It is a fact that my political journey to this place started in the Hunters Arms in Kilburn, a village in my constituency, when I agreed to put myself forward to be Labour’s candidate in the general election. It is an honour to represent the people of Amber Valley and to have the opportunity to speak about our heritage today.
This Bill centres on the importance of heritage and protecting buildings and places that matter to communities. Whether it is because of the events that took place there, the people connected to them, their architecture or simply because they have stood at the heart of a community for generations, these places help to tell the story of who we are. In supporting the principle behind the Bill, I am conscious that heritage takes many forms. Historic pubs are one important element of our built heritage, but they sit alongside the castles, manor houses, theatres, cinemas, churches and industrial buildings that tell the story of our communities.
Amber Valley has no shortage of such places. We are fortunate to be home to Wingfield Manor, one of the most important surviving medieval manor houses in the country. It was built in the 1440s, and it is perhaps best known as one of the places where Mary, Queen of Scots, was held during her imprisonment. Today, the site remains closed to the public, despite enormous local interest in seeing it reopened. That is why I am proud to be working alongside Derbyshire Historic Building Trust, which has successfully secured funding for a feasibility study to explore the future of the site, with the ambition of ultimately acquiring Wingfield Manor and reopening this nationally significant heritage asset to the public. It is an exciting project, and one that I will continue to champion.
Likewise, in Somercotes, the magnificent Premier Electric Theatre remains one of the area’s most striking reminders of its cultural history. Built in 1912, it served generations as a theatre, cinema and community venue before falling into disrepair. Today, local residents and Somercotes parish council are working incredibly hard to secure its future. I have been pleased to support those efforts, and I hope to see the building restored as a multi-purpose community venue capable of hosting cinema screenings, theatre productions, live music, a wide range of community events, and maybe even a bar—who knows? It has enormous potential, and it could once again become a real asset for local people.
There is also the Hippodrome in Ripley. Opened in 1913, it remains one of the town’s most recognisable landmarks. It was originally a theatre, then a cinema, a bingo hall and, latterly, a bar and nightclub called Tonkers. While much of the building has been converted into flats, the historical frontage still stands. Many residents raise with me their concerns about its condition and their hopes for its future. I share those concerns and hope that in the years ahead, we can find a positive long-term future for this important part of Ripley’s heritage.
All those campaigns differ slightly in their details, but they share a common principle with the Bill before us today: communities should have a stronger voice in protecting the places that matter to them. That is why I am particularly supportive of measures that empower local people.
Historic pubs already benefit from a range of protections. Demolition or change of use requires planning permission. Listed pubs enjoy additional statutory protections, and local authorities have powers available to them through measures such as local heritage listings and building preservation notices where appropriate. Communities can also act to protect the places that matter to them through the assets of community value regime, which ensures that valued local institutions receive proper consideration before they are lost.
Many aspects of this Bill build upon that existing framework and the wider direction of travel established through the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026. In particular, I welcome the Government’s introduction of the new right to buy. Communities know their local assets best, and it is only right that they are given a meaningful opportunity to step in where an important community asset may otherwise be lost.
Anna Dixon
My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. I declare an interest with regard to the point I am about to make: I know the person who runs PatchWorks, which is an evaluation consultancy. PatchWorks did an evaluation report of a community-owned pub in Tollerton that was due to close in 2019 and be turned into flats. The report states that 84% of people said that since the pub had been taken into community ownership, it was a better place to live; 64% said it helped them to make and maintain local friendships; and in general, it created trade and brought jobs and development opportunities for young people. Does my hon. Friend agree with the findings of that evaluation, which show that there is a really good case for community ownership of our heritage pubs, saving them from being closed and keeping them at the heart of our villages?
Linsey Farnsworth
I absolutely agree. That example makes a powerful case for why it is so important to allow and equip our local communities to take community assets back into public use, so that they can celebrate them and enjoy them.
Taken together, the measures that I have mentioned recognise an important principle: local people should have a stronger voice in shaping the future of the buildings and institutions that matter most to them. However, the provisions relating to the community right to buy, including the extension of the moratorium period, have yet to come into force. On behalf of the residents of Amber Valley, I would welcome an update from the Minister on when the necessary regulations and guidance will be published. Community groups across Amber Valley are keen to understand how these powers will operate in practice and, crucially, how soon they can make use of them. That is why I welcome the intention behind the Bill.
While I support the objective of protecting historic pubs, I think there is a broader point worth making. The significance of a pub is not simply found in the age of its bricks and mortar; it is found in the memories made there, in the conversations held in the bar and in the communities built around it. After all, heritage is not just about buildings; it is about people. When people in Ambergate talk about the Hurt Arms, they are not simply talking about a Victorian inn; they are talking about a place that has formed part of community life for generations. Even its name tells a story, preserving the memory of the Hurt family, whose influence on the area stretches back centuries—although a lesser known story about the name of the pub involves a young me coming up with sillier and sillier names for the pub as we drove past on our way to Matlock Bath for a day out, with “The Sore Legs” being a favourite of mine back in the day.
When people in Riddings talk about the Moulders Arms, affectionately known as “The Thack”, they are not simply celebrating its grade II listed status or its distinction as Derbyshire’s only thatched pub; they are celebrating a pub whose very name preserves the memory of the skilled moulders employed at the nearby ironworks at Pye Bridge.
Mike Wood
The hon. Lady is talking about some outstanding pubs in her constituency, but does she recognise that, because the Hurt Arms is neither listed as an asset of community value nor a registered listed building with statutory protection, it would have next to no protections without the provisions in the Bill, even after the improvements in the framework? Will she think again and support the Bill, so that pubs in her constituency such as the Hurt Arms can benefit from the community right to buy that she has spoken of?
Linsey Farnsworth
As the hon. Gentleman knows, I am supportive of the essence of the Bill. Woe betide anybody who tried to take the Hurt Arms away from the people of Amber Valley. Indeed, when I come to the Pentrich revolution in a moment, the hon. Gentleman will understand why I would never cross the people in my constituency.
As I mentioned, the Moulders Arms is preserving the memory of the skilled moulders employed at the nearby ironworks at Pye Bridge, helping to tell the story of the industry that helped to build the modern Amber Valley. Then there is the Seven Stars in Riddings, built on the site of a former chapel and dating back centuries. It later found itself connected to events surrounding England’s last armed uprising, the Pentrich revolution of 1817. Local authorities gathered information and monitored unrest, siting themselves within the pub as the rebellion unfolded nearby. If only the Pentrich Brewing Co., which opened recently, had been around back then, maybe the men would not have gotten as far as to be arrested.
Even pub names that have disappeared often linger in local memory. In parts of Amber Valley, residents still instinctively give directions with reference to the Red Admiral in Codnor, despite it becoming the Poet and Castle many years ago. That demonstrates something important: heritage is not simply found in bricks and mortar. Sometimes it survives in memories, in stories and in the names that communities refuse to let go. Of course, not all pubs with community value are centuries old. Indeed, one of my concerns in debates such as this is that we sometimes risk implying that only old pubs are worth protecting or, indeed, that measures brought in with every good intention may stifle progress, particularly with buildings that have already fallen into disrepair.
The truth is that today’s community pub is tomorrow’s heritage pub. What matters most is whether it serves its community. Take the Candlemaker in Ripley. The building takes its name from its former life as a candle factory. Fortunately for the business, the owners recognised that people in 2026 have rather less need for candles than their Victorian predecessors. They sensibly concluded that wine and tapas, and bringing more people into Ripley town centre, would probably do more for our local economy than trying to recreate the candle trade. As the business owners proudly put it:
“Founded in 1830. Reimagined for 2026.”
That strikes me as a rather good description of what successful pubs have always done. They evolve, they adapt and they find new ways of bringing people together.
The same can be said for the Groovers Arms in Peasehill near Ripley. Formerly the Beehive, a traditional Victorian pub, it has been transformed into something rather different. The main event now happens not in the Victorian building, which still exists, but in a separate building at the end of the garden, which has been transformed into something beautiful. Through live music, community events and Groovefest, the pub has found new ways of serving local people and attracting visitors into the area. That adaptation, in my submission, should be celebrated, not discouraged.
Equally, some pubs thrive precisely because they combine heritage with modern community life. The Dead Poets, a village pub in Holbrook, is a multiple-award-winning pub and the current Derbyshire CAMRA pub of the year. It began life as the Cross Keys, before being extensively restored and reimagined. Today it hosts quizzes, poetry events, festivals and community gatherings, as well as serving exceptional real ale and cider. Its success demonstrates that protecting heritage is not about freezing buildings in time but about ensuring that historic places remain relevant, well used and valued by the communities around them.
Newer venues such as Mary Lou’s Smokehouse & Craft Bar in Ripley demonstrate how pubs continue to innovate. From the outside, one might assume that it is a traditional micropub, but once they step inside, they will find a large and vibrant venue with live country music, comedy nights, themed events, food and entertainment alongside its drinks offering. I recently dropped in with some members of Young Labour following a campaign session; I had a quick drink and then left them to enjoy themselves. I am in no position to confirm or deny whether any line dancing took place that evening, Madam Deputy Speaker—you would have to ask them!
The same is true of Amber Valley’s growing micropub sector. Whether it is Tom Said in Ripley or the Tip Inn in Loscoe, these smaller venues are proving enormously popular because they offer something that people increasingly value: character, conversation and community. Their buildings may not yet qualify as heritage assets, but they are already becoming community assets. While I support protecting historic pubs where appropriate, we must also focus on helping pubs survive and thrive.
Dame Meg Hillier
My hon. Friend is making a really important point. Newer venues are often based in community spaces and deliver the services that the clientele want. There is nothing wrong with preserving buildings, but sometimes older pubs cannot always be preserved as pubs for all sorts of other reasons —development around the area or changing demographics, for instance. This is an invidious question to ask an MP, but does my hon. Friend want to name her favourite modern pub that she thinks should be an asset of community value in her constituency?
Linsey Farnsworth
I thank my hon. Friend for her question, but it puts me in somewhat of a delicate position. I love all the pubs in my constituency, and I will probably be tactful and leave my response there. I am very lucky to have such wonderful pubs coming up, including a lot of micropubs, one of which Members will hear more about shortly.
We need to focus on helping all pubs survive and thrive. When I met publicans from across Amber Valley earlier this year I found people who were incredibly proud of what they do. They were proud of the jobs that they create and the role that they play in bringing communities together—but I would not describe them as totally optimistic. They spoke candidly about rising costs, changing consumer habits and the pressures facing the sector. Many told me that they were seeing drinking patters shift, as customers increasingly use pubs earlier in the evening and less frequently late at night. They are adapting, as pubs always have, but they want the Government to recognise the challenges they face.
I welcome the support that this Government are providing, including introducing community right to buy, which will give communities a genuine opportunity to take ownership of valued local assets, and banning upward-only rent review clauses in commercial tenancies, ending a practice that has too often left businesses facing rent increases, irrespective of wider economic conditions. The Government also announced a 20% reduction in business rate bills next year—a measure expected to save the typical pub around £1,000.
None of those measures alone will solve every challenge facing the sector, but together they represent practical support both for pubs and the communities that they serve. If hon. Members are now thinking that Amber Valley appears to have an unusually impressive collection of pubs, I assure them that they are correct, and any Members wishing to verify that claim for themselves would be most welcome to visit. If they do, they will find a warm Derbyshire welcome, a rich industrial and social history, and, I respectfully suggest, some of the finest pubs anywhere in the country—[Interruption.] Members can come and see for themselves! After all, there are far worse ways to learn about the history of a place than spending a day exploring the pubs that have helped to shape it.
For those unable to make the journey immediately, there is another opportunity on the horizon. On 3 November, I will have the pleasure of pulling a pint, in Strangers Bar, of Alter Ego’s own brewed cask ale, Mr Brown, produced by the fantastic team at the Tip Inn in Loscoe and selected as Strangers’ guest beer. I do hope that Mr Brown is named after our former Prime Minister; I will have to ask. I hope Members from across the House will give it a try. If they enjoy it, I hope it might encourage them to pay a visit to Amber Valley and experience the real thing for themselves.
Ultimately, that brings me back to the Bill before us. I support protecting historic pubs and protecting our heritage, but we should remember that pubs are about far more than the buildings they occupy. The best way to preserve our pub heritage is not simply to prevent demolition or conversion, but to ensure that pubs remain thriving, sustainable and well used parts of community life, because a pub without people is simply a building. It is the community inside that gives it its value, and that is why, while I support the intention of the Bill, I hope we will continue to focus not only on preserving the pubs of the past, but on securing the future of all pubs that bring our communities together.
Lincoln Jopp (Spelthorne) (Con)
On my way home last night, I popped in at the Three Horseshoes in Shepperton—because it is on the way. This morning, when I was driving into work with my wife, she said, “What are you doing in Parliament today?” I said, “I am supporting the British pub industry.” She said, deadpan, “Trust me, you’re doing your bit already.”
The debate today has been quite long, and I would like to draw attention to the comments by the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Adam Jogee). I would be very happy to take an intervention from him, because the official figures are in and, having checked Hansard, it seems that he mentioned Spelthorne in his speech more frequently than he mentioned his own constituency. If he wants to stand up and intervene on me so he can say the name of his constituency a few more times to even up the scores, I will of course take that intervention.
Adam Jogee
It is a case of a first time for everything: I do not think I can be accused of not making the case for Newcastle-under-Lyme as often as I can, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
Order. Just to remind Mr Jopp: there are many more colleagues in the Chamber than Mr Adam Jogee.
Lincoln Jopp
Madam Deputy Speaker, you may or may not be aware that there is a rumour at large in Parliament and alive in the Tea Room that hon. Members only have to mention the name of a pub in their constituency, then send to that pub the hard copy of Hansard where the name is mentioned, and the next time they go in there, they get a free pint! That is, of course, completely untrue—a point I have had to make to the landlords of the Happy Landing in Stanwell, the King’s Fairway in Ashford, the White Horse in Sunbury and the Wheatsheaf & Pigeon on the Staines-Laleham road, a pub where I will be going tomorrow to lodge my “Save Kempton Park” banner for a week as it tours my Spelthorne constituency.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) on bringing this debate. The hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Dame Meg Hillier) is not in her place anymore, but there was a genuine exchange of ideas there on whether the protections envisaged in this private Member’s Bill are required. The story of the Crooked House is a salutary one. I have in my constituency a number of very historic pubs, including the Admiral Hawke, an 18th century pub named after the former First Sea Lord and Member of Parliament for Portsmouth, and the Bells in Staines. Imagine if they were to burn down under suspicious circumstances—they are not listed and nor are they listed as assets of community value. They would be further protected under this private Member’s Bill, so I think it has merit.
The hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch said that her sort of “so what?” was: “Well, we should all therefore be encouraging our communities to get together if they do value their pubs and to have them registered as assets of community value.”
That clearly is not happening as much as the legislation envisaged, hence this private Member’s Bill.
I want to make one observation: normally, when we call pubs “Assets of Community Value”, we do so to try to protect them when they are in trouble. Let us take away the capital letters and just say that those pubs are assets of community value, encouraging all our people to invest in them by going to them. Tragically, the British Beer and Pub Association reports that this year we are on track to lose a pub a day in Britain. Some 300 have closed in the first nine months of this year. We have not had much of a sense of the challenges that they face. I will not go too political on this, but the landlords I speak to are very aware of the additional challenges: business rates, the minimum wage and employers’ national insurance. The onus is on all of us. It is tragic that, when a pub closes, everyone is up in arms, but when I ask people how often they had been there, they might say, “Oh, I went there last year.”
Pubs really need our help. If the Bill were to come to a vote, I would support it but I am delighted that we have had an opportunity raise some of the issues of the British pub industry, its challenges and the protections that it needs.
Lizzi Collinge (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Lab)
I thank the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) for raising the important issue of heritage pubs. I grew up in a small village in north Cumbria. We were lucky enough to have two pubs, both of which I worked in as a teenager—most memorably one Christmas day, when I was presented with a Mrs Santa Claus outfit to wear. As a teenager more interested in heavy metal, I was not very pleased. Those pubs were important community hubs. I feel lucky to be representing the constituency of Morecambe and Lunesdale, which has many more excellent pubs than I could possibly mention in one speech.
Before this debate, I went on Facebook to ask my constituents what their favourite heritage pub was. The comments section was absolutely inundated—it was fantastic to see the passion that my constituents have for their locals. Morecambe and Lunesdale has dozens of great public houses, many with beautiful heritage features or important heritage settings. The Old Hall Inn in my town of Heysham is apparently the oldest dwelling in the borough, having been built in 1598.
People can go from the Black Bull in Sedbergh to the Royal in Heysham, perhaps via a cheeky pint of Wainwright in the Albion at Arnside, looking across at the lakeland fells. They could even engage in a “west end wobble” in the heart of Morecambe, usually starting at the Exchange, possibly popping into the Constitutional Club and finding their way to the newly opened Prince Albert on Albert Road, which has a fantastic cellar that no one could guess existed from the outside.
We are spoilt for choice. I invite any hon. Member here to come on a little pub crawl with me. I maintain that I have the most beautiful constituency in the country. Any visitor to our pubs will get to see every corner of it.
Anna Dixon
On her many visits to her fantastic local pubs, has my hon. Friend enjoyed a pint of Yorkshire ale? The excellent Saltaire Blonde, brewed in my constituency and named after the fantastic world heritage site village of Saltaire, is distributed nationwide. Has it found its way into any of her local heritage pubs?
Lizzi Collinge
I have not tried that ale. I wonder whether those of us on the correct side of the Pennines would welcome a Yorkshire pint or not—but I am sure it is delicious. Pubs are vital community assets, whether in Yorkshire, Lancashire or Westmorland. British life often happens over a pint and maybe a bag of Scampi Fries or—even better—a packet of Lancashire crisps. My tenuous claim to fame is that Wainwright Beer is named after my great-great uncle Alfred Wainwright, who was a fell walker and writer. He did enjoy a pint at the end of a walk, although I have to say that his mother, who was a strict teetotaller, would be turning in her grave at the idea of her son having a beer named after him.
I have spoken before in this place about the need to have spaces in our community where people can drop by, see a mate, run into people they know or even make new friends. Much as I love the great coffee shops in my constituency like the Salty Bean, or maybe something a bit more traditional like Lewis’s, which has many heritage features, you cannot beat a swift half at the Dispensary at the end of a long week.
It is about not just community—I will come back to that—but conserving important architectural and cultural buildings. The Tivoli Bar in Morecambe, which was named after the Tivoli gardens in Copenhagen, closed a few years ago, but I remember the inside of it being stunning. The Tivoli and the Queen’s Hotel in Morecambe could be fantastic assets to our town and examples of heritage buildings being preserved and put to good use; instead, they lie neglected. The Tivoli is owned by Samuel Smith’s Brewery, and despite Morecambe BID and I trying to get it and other absent landlords to engage on how we get more buildings open and working again, unfortunately we did not get any engagement from the brewery when we wrote to it back in February.
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend is making an important point about pubs that are long left derelict. In my constituency of Halesowen, the Olde Queens Head right in the town centre had been derelict for a while, but it is being repurposed to be a community centre by an excellent community group called Stepping Out, which supports young disabled people to get out and around the town. While that is not a heritage pub, I think that is a fantastic use of a venue that otherwise would go to waste. Does she have such examples from her constituency?
Lizzi Collinge
My hon. Friend puts me on the spot—of course I cannot remember a single example right now, but I know they are everywhere. However, the point he makes about reuse of buildings is really important, and one that I will come back to. While we can keep pubs as pubs, times change and things change, and what is important is to preserve those buildings for the use of the community, whether as a pub or not. I thank the group in his constituency for doing that.
The Queen’s Hotel in Morecambe recently changed hands, so I want to wait and see what happens with that, but it sat neglected for a long time. That has a huge impact on how people feel about the town and on the businesses and landlords who make a huge effort to keep their buildings in really good condition; it is not fair that they should have to be next to those eyesores.
I want to take a moment to talk about the business community across Morecambe and Lunesdale, and in particular Morecambe BID’s work in the town. I meet local businesses every week, and without doubt they are a key part of what makes a community thrive. We have loads of local businesses who are wedded to the community. They are part of it and do a lot to support it.
For example, I recently met Vicki Edwards, who is a breast cancer survivor. She is raising money for CancerCare, a fantastic local charity that supports families affected by cancer. Vicki was supported in her campaign by 14 local pubs. Every venue had a collection box and leaflets on “know your normal”, which is a Breast Cancer Now campaign to help people detect suspected breast and chest cancers earlier. Many of those pubs also ran their own fundraising events for CancerCare. I want to recognise the Morecambe pubs that supported Vicki, which are the Pier Hotel, Soul Bowl, Palatine, the Bull hotel, Fisherman’s Square, the Chieftain Hotel, the Royal Bar and Shaker, the Crown Hotel, Harry’s Bar, the York, O’Nellys, Brittlestar Wine Bar, the Pestle and Mortar and the Hurley Flyer. I think even more pubs might have helped out, but that was the list in my local newspaper, so I am sticking to it. They, as always, showed the best of British businesses.
I want to talk about the staff who work in these pubs. Heritage pubs often have narrow staircases and low-levelled cellars. I have worked in many a pub, and met my husband when he was running the Britannia in Lancaster, a Victorian pub that is now a block of flats. Staff in pubs work very hard, often with antisocial hours, and sometimes have to deal with some interesting customers. That is why I am proud that they now have much better employment protections through our Employment Rights Act 2025, in particular the improved sick pay situation and, of course, the increase to the minimum wage. I spent many years working on the minimum wage, and that increase is an absolutely essential part of ensuring that everyone who works hard for a living is rewarded for that.
I remember the long hours, the hard work, the occasionally tricky customer, the glasswasher breaking on the busiest day of the week, of course, and the beer delivery being late. But I also remember the joy: not only meeting my husband, but the wider friendships we built, the flatmates above the pub—Stephie, Jay, Jade and Chris—and the late-night chats—definitely not lock-ins; we never did that. I still occasionally pop over to Lancaster and drop into the Gregson centre, which was originally built in 1889 for the community. I worked there twice and, 20 years later, I still see regulars who I used to serve. In fact, one of those regular’s toddler sons—who should, I swear, still be three years old—was recently on “University Challenge”. I am sure that Aliki is very proud of her son.
That work history also came in handy when visiting local pubs in my constituency, where they set me up with a pint glass, a real ale pump and a glint in their eye, clearly expecting the local MP to make a right frothy mess of the pint. I particularly remember a visit before the election to the Royal, in Bolton-le-Sands, with my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West and Pudsey (Rachel Reeves). I have to say, I do pour a better pint than my right hon. Friend, and it is a proper northern pint with a creamy head, too—none of this southern nonsense with no sparkler tap. I am not having that; it is just absolutely wrong.
I will turn now to the provisions in the Bill. The Bill obviously has good intent, and I share the desire of the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire to protect our heritage pubs and buildings. I mentioned the Tivoli in Morecambe and the Victorian pub where I met my husband now being flats, and they are just two examples.
I do have some concerns about certain aspects of the Bill, as I do not want to create more bureaucracy in the planning system. I think one of the great achievements of this Government will be having a planning system that works to protect our assets without being overly complicated and expensive. About 70% of planning authorities in England already have heritage lists, and 11,000 of the listed buildings are pubs or inns, so pubs are already afforded strong protections through the planning system.
Mike Wood
The hon. Lady is speaking about the local heritage listing, but does she recognise that it does not protect the interior of pubs? It does not stop anyone from going into any of those pubs tomorrow and ripping out historic beams, fittings or anything that is not physically part of the bricks and mortar of the building.
Lizzi Collinge
That is an interesting and important point. I will go on to mention the importance of retaining those additional features when pubs, or any buildings, are renovated. The hon. Gentleman makes an important point there. However, as he knows, proposals to demolish or change the use of pubs already require a planning application, as they are deliberately excluded from relevant permitted development rights. That allows local authorities, through the planning committee, to consider the full impact of the proposals. Local authorities have the power to issue an enforcement notice for a breach of planning control. I appreciate that in the hon. Gentleman’s case, with the Crooked House, that came far too late, and I really do share the despair he must have felt at that happening.
We have talked about the heritage lists. Pubs that are formally designated as listed buildings are afforded additional protection, with listed building consent needed to demolish or undertake any works of alteration or extension that affect the listed building’s character or appearance. Failure to obtain listed building consent is, of course, an offence.
I just want to say that I thoroughly support local authorities’ fully enforcing all planning consents and building regulations. There is a pub in the area where I was a county councillor that was changed into flats where the developer, frankly, had no respect for the planning process or local people and consistently and flagrantly breached the planning consents he had been given. I would support much stronger powers to prevent people like that from being able to develop in the future.
Alex Ballinger
I have a similar planning challenge in my constituency, where a supporting wall that was built above a housing development has collapsed. Residents of the new build development have now spent two years waiting for that wall to be fixed without any access to their properties or action by the developer to rectify the situation. There are real challenges with rogue developers, not just in the Crooked House case, but across the board. Given my hon. Friend’s experience of planning, will she say whether the Government could be doing anything else to challenge these kinds of situations?
Lizzi Collinge
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. His case reminds me of my visit to a block of flats in Arnside just a couple of weeks ago. The balconies have been deemed unsafe and the developer and property management company are both trying to charge residents a huge amount of money because they have not created a proper sinking fund. They are also dragging their feet on everyday maintenance and safety issues. There is more we could do, although we are bringing in great reforms to things like leasehold and other matters. The principle is that if someone is responsible for something, they should take responsibility and fix the mess they have made, so I support my hon. Friend’s point.
Communities can also take measures through the assets of community value scheme, which was introduced by the Government in 2011. Local authorities are responsible for ensuring that the scheme is run in accordance with the legislation.
Rather than adding to the planning regime, it is more important to make sure that we support pubs to thrive through everyday policy. Ask any pub owner and they will talk about rising operating costs, particularly for energy, and changing alcohol consumption habits, which make it harder to make a profit. The Government are taking action on that.
I am a member of the Energy Security and Net Zero Committee, which often speaks about business energy costs. I would like to flag the importance of the clean power 2030 mission to the survival of pubs and other businesses. When we go into pubs, we want them to be nice and warm, which means that they have very high energy costs. The Government are doing important work to decouple the price of electricity from the price of gas, which is set internationally and is damaged by international events.
For pubs specifically, the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026 will ban the use of upwards-only rent review clauses in commercial tenancies. Those clauses have meant that rents can only ever stay the same or rise, regardless of market conditions. Pubs that are signed up to the pubs code already receive that protection, but the ban will extend it to heritage pubs, further increasing support for these important institutions.
I was pleased that the Government announced the 20% business rates discount for pubs, clubs and entertainment venues, which has helped to give them some breathing space. I would point out that there are other businesses very similar to pubs, like the Avanti restaurant I visited in Kirkby Lonsdale, whose owner kindly brought together a group of local businesspeople for me to speak with. They would like to see parity on that tax relief. I encourage pubs to check whether they are eligible for the £61 million community right to buy fund rolled out by the Government, which funds people in deprived areas to take over community assets—something my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Anna Dixon) talked about.
Rather than relying on planning protection, which can be slow, those measures give communities agency over a place and the opportunity to operate those assets successfully. There is also the Pub is The Hub programme, which helps pubs in rural areas like mine to diversify and is backed by £3 million of Government funding.
Community ownership and engagement are really important to the Government. They are strengthening them further through the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act, which will introduce a new community right to buy and give communities real power of ownership. Communities will have the first opportunity to purchase and 12 months to raise funding, which is a significant improvement.
Local communities should determine which spaces and places are most important to them. A growing number of local residents across the country are stepping into the gap and saving heritage assets. There are some brilliant groups like that in Morecambe and Lunesdale. I want to give a specific mention to the Save Our Sun campaign in Dent. Dent is a beautiful village nestled in the Yorkshire Dales national park—I have three planning authorities in my constituency, which is always fun. The Save Our Sun campaign has pulled the community together to save the Sun Inn, and I wish to put on record my thanks to the group. They have done a fantastic job, and I was pleased to hear recently that they have progressed a little further.
Anna Dixon
I am pleased that my hon. Friend is backing a campaign to save a pub in beautiful Dent. The Dales way links parts of my constituency with hers, and we sometimes forget that those heritage pubs are not only part of the local community, but also provide a fantastic resting place for visitors to our areas who enjoy walking in our beautiful countryside. One pub with a very long heritage tradition is Dick Hudsons in Bingley, which lies on the edge of a popular walking route. Does my hon. Friend agree that we want to save those pubs not only for local communities but for all those who come and visit our areas to enjoy them?
Lizzi Collinge
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend, and Dent is a prime example of a place where visitors come. My constituency has so many fantastic places for visitors, whether it is the front at Morecambe, which is getting Eden Project Morecambe, beautiful Arnside, which I mentioned earlier, Milnthorpe, Kirkby Lonsdale, the whole Lune valley, or the Yorkshire Dales national park. The businesses that serve our communities all year round also serve visitors. They are fantastic spokespeople for our area, and they also show the quality of our local produce, which is important.
I want to know that the provisions in the proposed statutory register would create some meaningful protection, and not add another layer of bureaucracy. I want pubs to be live assets—I spoke earlier about the fact that buildings will change over time. Our heritage and communities are not static things, and from an architectural and heritage point of view it is important that their character is not lost. If something is in its original state, but that original state is mouldering, that is not a good thing, and when preserving those features it is important that any upgrade or renovations are done sympathetically and are in keeping. I recently visited the Royal Oak in Burton in my constituency. It has done a fantastic renovation that is very sympathetic to the original building. I want us to keep our pubs open and running, to preserve those historical buildings for future generations, and to leave it possible for them to have new life when the owners so choose.
Markus Campbell-Savours (Penrith and Solway) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) on bringing forward the Bill, and I bow to his superior knowledge of pubs both heritage and modern. I do not doubt how thorough his research methods have been.
This is an issue of enormous importance, particularly for rural constituencies such as Penrith and Solway, where the village pub is often much more than simply a business. The Bill would establish local authority registers of heritage public houses, introduce restrictions on their sale, and create additional protections in the planning system. In many of our villages, the pub sits at the heart of community life. It is where neighbours meet, local groups gather, funds are raised for worthy causes, and people maintain the social bonds that hold communities together. The loss of a village pub can be devastating. It can fundamentally change the character of an area and leave a void that is never truly filled. I therefore understand entirely the motivation behind the Bill, and the desire to ensure that valued pubs are not unnecessarily lost.
However, I wish to focus my remarks on provisions in the Bill that contain similar principles to the asset of community value framework, particularly the restrictions on sale and the opportunity for community acquisition. As I understand it, under the Bill owners of a registered heritage public house could be subject to a process including a full moratorium period of up to 12 months before a sale can proceed in certain circumstances. My question is a practical one: what happens when a community wishes to buy a pub, has local support and a business plan, but needs time and financial support to complete the purchase?
Mike Wood
The hon. Gentleman asks a reasonable question. The answer is that the procedure and timelines in the Bill are exactly the same as those the Government introduced for assets of community value in the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026. Community groups will have eight weeks to register an expression of interest, and then up to 18 months to get the bid together and complete the negotiations. As I said, if they are not able to agree the price because of an unreasonable demand from the seller, then—just as with assets of community value—the independent valuer can set the price.
Markus Campbell-Savours
I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s intervention. My criticisms of the Bill may go beyond this Bill and into some of the existing provisions.
The success of these protections will ultimately depend not only on the rights that Parliament creates, but on whether communities can realistically exercise those rights. That brings me to a case in my constituency—hon. Members may be relieved to hear that it is the only pub I will mention in my speech. In the village of Ireby, local residents have spent years attempting to secure the future of Emily’s Black Lion, the last remaining pub serving a rural area of around 15,000 hectares with a population of only a few hundred. The importance of the Black Lion cannot be overstated. Public transport has been withdrawn from the village, there are few remaining public amenities, and the pub supports community events, fundraising for local institutions and the neighbouring, community-owned Globe Hall. For many residents, it is the principal social and community hub.
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. I am reflecting on my experience in Halesowen; it is a built-up area rather than a residential area, but unfortunately, we have had real reductions in community spaces through years of Conservative cuts to local government. That means that pubs, as well as libraries and other community spaces, have become increasingly important. Does my hon. Friend agree that that makes the continuation of pubs even more vital than it was in the past?
Markus Campbell-Savours
I agree with my hon. Friend. Sometimes we can underestimate the similarities between rural areas and inner cities, where community spaces are limited.
I followed the campaign of Emily’s Black Lion for a number of years, including during my time as a parliamentary candidate, when I had the opportunity to visit the Black Lion and meet members of the community group. What struck me then, and continues to impress me today, is that this was never simply a campaign to save a pub; it was a campaign to sustain a community. Local residents spoke of ambitions to develop the pub further as a café, drop-in facility and community hub serving local residents throughout the day. That ambition has only become more important as other services have been lost. During the course of the campaign, Ireby also lost its bus service. In a city, losing a pub may mean walking to the next one—although I welcome what my hon. Friend the Member for Halesowen (Alex Ballinger) has just said—but in a village such as Ireby, losing the last pub can mean losing one of the last places where people regularly come together.
When the future of the pub was threatened, local people did exactly what Governments of all colours have encouraged communities to do: they organised. They established a community benefit society, commissioned surveys and valuations, prepared a business plan, achieved the community share standard, launched a community share offer and raised more than £100,000 from around 200 investors, with further pledges available. On a modest estimate, the core volunteers contributed more than 1,300 hours of unpaid work to the project, including more than 800 hours from one individual alone. Think about that for a moment—more than 1,300 volunteer hours from local people who simply wanted to keep their pub alive.
Most importantly, they did all of that in good faith. They pursued the route laid before them through the community ownership fund. They incurred costs, undertook surveys, assembled evidence and met every requirement asked of them, then just as they were preparing to submit what they believed was a completed application, the general election was called. The process was interrupted, and the funding scheme was subsequently closed. The Government have since confirmed that the community ownership fund is closed and there will be no further application rounds. This was devastating for the campaign in Ireby.
Where are we now? I am not here to referee a dispute between the owner and the community group, nor am I here to put a value on the pub—those are matters for negotiation between the parties involved. However, the position in Ireby illustrates a wider policy question. The community group believes a purchase remains achievable with sufficient support. The owner has expressed concerns about the effect of restrictions and uncertainty on the future marketability of the property. The argument advanced by the owner in Ireby is that restrictions intended to support community ownership may, in some circumstances, discourage other purchasers from coming forward—purchasers who may wish to run a pub and secure the future of the asset.
Members may or may not agree with that assessment. My point is that the argument exists. Some may argue that it is irrational, but potential buyers often are not rational. It is an argument that becomes more significant when communities do not have access to the funding required to complete an acquisition. The most effective response is not necessarily fewer protections. It may be better funding, better access to finance and a clearer pathway from community interest to community ownership.
The challenge goes beyond this Bill. Parliament has recently strengthened community acquisition rights through the new community right-to-buy provisions in the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act. Those reforms extend the moratorium period and create stronger opportunities for communities to acquire valued local assets. I welcome the ambition behind those reforms, which are motivated by many of the same objectives that underpin the Bill before us today. However, I am interested in how Ministers see those rights operating in practice where communities face significant difficulties accessing capital.
Linsey Farnsworth
My hon. Friend will have heard me talk earlier about the Premier Electric Theatre, and the points he is making resonate with me in relation to that project. The community need to raise £21,000 just to do a feasibility study in an area where there is not a lot of money in the population. Will he join me in asking the Government to see whether anything can be done to empower communities such as mine in Somercotes, where there is not a lot of money swilling around in the population?
Markus Campbell-Savours
I will. The Government are hopefully hearing the message that, if there are intentions to open any funds, we sometimes need seed money to develop business cases and feasibility studies, because that is an important part of the process.
The concerns I have raised have also been highlighted by CAMRA, which has welcomed stronger community acquisition rights while warning that their effectiveness is reduced in the absence of replacement funding following the closure of the community ownership fund. The experience of the people of Ireby demonstrates precisely that point. The obstacle they have encountered is not a lack of commitment, a lack of organisation, a lack of local support or even a lack of a mechanism by which to do it. The obstacle has been uncertainty around access to capital.
If Parliament is prepared to introduce a 12-month moratorium on the sale of heritage public houses, Parliament should also consider how communities are expected to use that opportunity in practice. Time alone does not buy a pub. A right to buy does not buy a pub. Financing buys a pub. I therefore ask Ministers to look again at support for community acquisition of pubs and other vital rural assets. As the Government continue the implementation of the community right to buy, how do they intend to ensure that communities have access to the finance required to exercise those new rights?
Lizzi Collinge
I draw my hon. Friend’s attention to what has been done in the village of Dent in my constituency, where the community has come together with a community shares approach. The point he is making about the scale of finance needed to buy community assets is really important, and I would like to see the Government provide more support, but there have been some really innovative models across the country, and I would welcome his comments on those.
Markus Campbell-Savours
As I have already commented, the community in Ireby did a community share offer and have been through that process. Having gone through that process, it made it all the more disappointing that they were unable to access any additional money. But they keep fighting on—and will keep fighting on until they have secured what they need.
For isolated rural communities, those pubs are not luxuries; they are infrastructure. At a time when bus services are disappearing in rural areas, village amenities continue to decline and opportunities for social interaction are becoming increasingly limited, the local pub can be among the last remaining public spaces that bind the community together.
The people of Ireby have done everything that could reasonably be expected of them: they organised, volunteered, raised the money, built a plan and secured community support. My question to the Minister at the end of my boring speech, if it has not been clear, is, “What comes next?” If we are serious about helping communities save heritage pubs—or any pub—we cannot simply give them more time. We should also ensure that they have a realistic opportunity and funding to succeed.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
Is it to do with this debate?
Adam Jogee
It is. On a point of order, the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Lincoln Jopp)—in the pink shirt with a constituency in Surrey—intervened on my speech earlier, which led me to mention his constituency in my remarks. The hon. Member must correct the record. He said that I mentioned his constituency more than my own, which is of course nonsense and untrue. I have just checked Hansard and my notes: I made 20 references to Newcastle-under-Lyme, 14 specific references to areas in Staffordshire, six references to individual areas in Newcastle-under-Lyme, and six references to the hon. Member’s constituency. How can the hon. Member correct the record and ensure that an apology is given to me and my constituents?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
Mr Jogee, I am not sure that that is a good use of a point of order, but you have indeed corrected the record yourself. We will not continue this in the overall debate, so there is no need for a point of order from Mr Jopp.
Matt Turmaine (Watford) (Lab)
It is an honour to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and Solway (Markus Campbell-Savours) in this important debate. Watford and the surrounding area have a fine history of pubs and brewing. Indeed, the town has been associated with the production of beer, sold widely in the town’s hostelries, for many years. Benskins was the pre-eminent brewery in Watford, and Hertfordshire’s biggest brewer until its acquisition by Ind Coope in 1957. There were many tied houses, and many bore the Benskins name well into the 1990s.
In fact, the part of Watford in which I reside has a close association with the Benskins brewery, in terms of housing provision for workers and managers at the brewer’s facilities. For many years, Watford football club, the town’s professional team, were known as the Brewers, and Benskins brewery sponsored the purchase of the club’s Vicarage Road ground, where they have played ever since—earning them the nickname the Brewers. It was subsequently changed to the Hornets, which I suspect had a sting in the tail for the Brewers—perhaps we will never know. The ground was leased to the club at peppercorn rent, and in 2001, the club purchased the ground from Punch Taverns, which had inherited the freehold as part of its acquisition of the Allied Domecq estate.
In 2006, the club also purchased the freehold of the Red Lion pub opposite the ground, which remains a favourite watering hole for home fans, with away fans being accommodated at the nearby rebranded Oddfellows—formerly the Oddfellows Arms. In the interests of research and the pursuit of knowledge, I have attended both of those venues and can report that they are convivial, if tightly packed, venues that do the town proud as examples of heritage pubs.
Other pubs further away accommodate a mixed fanbase, which generally works well. Although the M1 derby, with local rivals that cannot be named in here—my hon. Friend the Member for Luton South and South Bedfordshire (Rachel Hopkins) is no longer present, or else she could testify to this—can sometimes present a challenge.
Returning to Benskins, the old offices, which are a three-story redbrick house in the Georgian neoclassical style, fronted the brewery itself. It was the former home of the Dyson family, built around 1775, with extensions added to the side in 1807. The house was bought in 1867 by Joseph Benskin, and the whole site continued to operate as their brewery until it was acquired by Ind Coope in 1957. Brewing continued in Watford until 1972, with the iconic chimney being demolished in 1977—the year of our late Queen’s jubilee. As a child, I spent that day on a balcony in the borders, ironically, although not deliberately, being sick—something that any novice attendee of our national heritage public houses may too have experienced.
In the 1970s, the football club’s matchday programme would always contain an advert for Ind Coope, listing all its pubs and giving the names of mine host as “Mr and Mrs” with their initials and a surname. That is how it was done in those days. In the end, the grade II listed property became the Watford Museum, opened by the Watford-born actor Terry Scott. Thanks to Government funding, the museum is presently being moved to a newer, more modern venue.
One of Watford’s multitudinous pubs was eventually named after Joseph Benskin. It was on the corner of Market Street, and these days it is a Gail’s. Less modern, however, is a small window set in the wall dating back around 300 years. It is documented as a surviving part of the original building. Many of the old pubs remain, while some more recently constructed ones have vanished. Watford’s council housing estates generally came equipped with at least one pub. Woodside had the Hammer in Hand and the Hare near Leveret Close, which is now a care home. Meriden still has the Badger. Holywell had the Highwayman, which is now Turpin Court, and in Courtlands Drive was the Beaver, which sadly has not been reintroduced there. I must relay an anecdote where I met the former Member for West Bromwich East in one of these heritage pubs. I was much impressed by the speed with which he was able to consume a pint of the dark brew of the Irish isle while within the Badger.
Checking through “The Book of Watford”, compiled and edited by local historian Bob Nunn in 1987, it lists 90 Watford pubs that existed since 1900. Many are now long gone. He dedicates much of the tome to them. The distinctive Oxhey village has retained two pubs in the neat rows of Victorian terraces: the Rifle Volunteer and the nearby Villiers Arms. Sadly, the Haydon Arms—a bit more out of the way—was lost, and the Prince of Wales closed in 1955.
Watford’s pubs are and remain social hubs. The Horns at the top of the town is famous for and still offers live music. I have enjoyed the music there many times, and it would be inappropriate of me not to mention a former Broadcasting, Entertainment, Communications and Theatre union mentor, Paul Evans, who I was lucky enough to witness playing at the venue with his band while I nervously awaited a very different impending recall for the birth of my second child.
There are many countryside pubs within a short drive or walk of Watford, and in some instances a bus service remains to get people there and back. The Clarendon Arms at Chandlers Cross was a regular pit stop for walkers, and the Cart and Horses at Commonwood, Bucks Hill, was the terminus for many years of London Country’s double deckers on the 318A route, where the conductor would see the driver reverse back to the stop to lay over before the return journey to Watford.
I can testify to the delights of the Clarendon Arms. My partner and I, freshly arrived in Hertfordshire’s finest town of Watford, strode our way through Whippendell wood to said hostelry and partook of its thirst-quenching delights. Perhaps less impressively, the return path was far from direct, and the sun was bidding a provocative farewell as we made our way through the snagging snicker of the woods vaguely in the right direction. It was more reminiscent of “An American Werewolf in London” than “The Railway Children”.
The Sir Robert Peel was a popular pub in Watford in its own right up until 2006. CAMRA advises that the explanation for its name was its former use as the town’s police station. The Wheatsheaf does not appear to have been a particularly fortunate name for pubs locally. The one in Watford at Bushey Arches became a car showroom. Sarratt, a few miles out of town and still with a bus service, saw its pub of the same name close. There was also a Wheatsheaf in Bovingdon High Street, which has closed.
It is important in this debate to namecheck a couple of my constituency’s hostelries. To that end, I mention the One Crown in Watford, which is believed to be one of the oldest pubs. In 1756, Jeremiah Friend was listed as the landlord of the venue, which suggests that is a fact. It is clearly challenging to be able to identify all these examples. I also mention the Swan, which apparently had 17th-century heritage, too. There is also the O’Neill’s, as it is now known, but to most of us it is the Flag.
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend mentions that a pub has changed its name from a fantastic previous name to O’Neill’s. Is he concerned not just about the heritage of our pubs but the heritage of the names of pubs? Those fantastic names that have lasted for years and years and years should continue; pubs should not be rebranded with random generic chain names.
Matt Turmaine
Yes, the legacy of pub names should be celebrated. It is sometimes disappointing to see the generic nature of venues in high streets. We can but hope that the interiors of those pubs continue to be sites of convivial and lively memory that can live on beyond the names.
I mentioned that O’Neill’s was formerly known as the Flag. It was originally a hotel to service Watford Junction station, and I must confess to have occasionally made use of its facilities, including once when it provided much-needed sustenance to a delegation from a previous abode of mine in Hammersmith and Fulham. They, too, were delighted to avail themselves of its excellent food and drink.
The Railway Arms in Bushey, which has close associations with the railway and those commuters who use it, once provided me with an opportunity to be sounded out about electoral issues in the run-up to the 2015 general election, in which I stood. In that election, I was able to relegate the Liberal Democrat mayor of Watford to third place, as Labour began its ascent back up the polls—a task that I fully intend to better at the next election.
The Moon Under Water on the high street is a peculiarity as a heritage public house in that it was opened in 1995, but it has an awareness of its history that far transcends expectations. Many informative items decorate the pub, revealing the history of the town. The pub is run by Wetherspoons and is named after George Orwell’s fantasy pub. Wetherspoons’ website reveals:
“In 1536, Richard Morison, the future owner of Cassiobury estate returned to England from his studies in Italy to work for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Thomas Cromwell.”
Richard was granted the manor of Cashio in 1546. His wife, Bridget, founded the Bedford almshouses in 1580 to house poor women from Watford, Langley and Chenies. They remain standing to this day, and I was able to enjoy hospitality at them on one of my visits there.
Heritage comes in many forms, and it would be negligent not to mention the town’s famous nightclub, Pryzm, which closed a couple of years ago. The club has known many forms, and indeed names, and rather like which Doctor Who one grew up with, it dates residents of the town to an era—for me, it was Paradise Lost. Many patrons would emerge from that nightclub in the early hours of the morning, blinking in the artificial lamppost light, seeking either a kebab or a cab—an act that has now sadly past into history.
I have also been able to attend a beer festival in St John’s church, an unlikely but enjoyable setting for the consumption of fine ales.
As other hon. Members have said, it is important to remember that even as we pass on, heritage is still being built today. The Mad Squirrel, where I was delighted to take a delegation of SPD members from Watford’s twin town of Mainz in Germany, was a particular favourite.
I will close by reflecting that last Saturday I was in the Estcourt Tavern in Watford, which is now run by Steven and Mel, formerly of the Southern Cross, to drown my sorrows following Watford football club’s lamentable defeat. One of the town’s long-established pubs, the refurbishment has been amazing, and I wish them every success with it. That venue was the site of another political interrogation, when I was quizzed about which Miliband I had supported in the Labour party leadership election of 2010—and so began a trajectory that delivered my election to this place.
Alex Ballinger
Will my hon. Friend give the House an answer as to which Miliband he supported?
Matt Turmaine
Of course, I would be happy to give an answer: the right one.
Figures I have seen show that in 2015 there were over 55,000 pubs, but by 2024 there were a staggering 10,000 fewer, which is sobering thought and a reminder to us all that pub closures did not begin in 2024. Pubs are the focal point for a community—public houses serving the public. I am pleased that the Government have recognised their loss over many years and that this needs to be tackled and addressed.
Sarah Hall (Warrington South) (Lab/Co-op)
When people think about pubs, they often think first about beer, but while great beer certainly matters, pubs have always been about much more than what is poured into a glass. They are meeting places, employers, community hubs, cultural institutions and, in many cases, living pieces of local history, as we have heard a lot about today.
In Warrington South, we are fortunate to have a rich pub culture, a growing independent hospitality sector and local breweries that continue a tradition stretching back generations. From Stockton Heath and Grappenhall to Latchford and Appleton, and across the wider constituency, pubs remain places where friendships are formed, local fundraising takes place, sports teams celebrate victories, families gather for meals, and communities come together in times of joy and challenge. Because pubs matter, we have a responsibility to approach legislation affecting them with care, precision and a proper understanding of the law as it already exists.
The question before the House is not whether historic pubs deserve protection—of course they do. The question is whether the measures proposed in this Bill are necessary, proportionate and effective alongside the protections already available, and whether they will genuinely help pubs to survive as living businesses, rather than simply preserving bricks and mortar. That distinction is particularly important in Warrington South. Warrington has a remarkable brewing history. For generations, Greenall’s was one of the names most closely associated with our town, connecting brewing with local employment, industry and the network of public houses through which beer reached our communities. Many local people also remember the famous Tetley Walker brewery on Dallam Lane.
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend talks about the local network connecting different breweries. Warrington might be very similar to the Black Country, in that canals were historically used to pass barrels of ale from brewery to pub. Does she have any famous canals in her constituency, and are they still used in that way?
Sarah Hall
We do indeed. We have the famous Sankey Canal, which is one of the oldest, if not the first, canal in this country. We also have the Manchester ship canal, which I am sure everybody here has heard about.
For decades, the Greenall’s brewery helped to define the character and economy of Warrington. The distinctive smell of hops became part of daily life for generations of residents, and the brewery was an important local employer. Although that era has passed, brewing remains very much alive in our town. One example is the 4T’s brewery, based in Latchford and founded by John Wilkinson, who previously worked at the historic Tetley Walker brewery. Having started in a garage, 4T’s has developed from a small operation into an established independent brewery producing cask, craft, bottled and canned beers, and it is exceptional.
That continuity matters. It demonstrates that heritage need not be frozen in time; it can be carried forward by people who possess the skills, knowledge and determination to adapt an old industry to new circumstances. Local breweries do far more than produce beer; they support employment, buy goods and services, supply pubs, attract visitors and strengthen Warrington’s identity. When residents choose a locally brewed pint, more of that spending remains within the local economy.
Independent breweries and pubs form part of a wider network of businesses that support one another. Across Warrington, CAMRA recognises venues that champion quality beer and community spirit, including the Lower Angel, the Tavern and the Hop Emporium, among many others. Such establishments remind us that a pub’s value is not measured solely by the age of the building. It is also measured by the landlord who knows the regulars by name, the community group that meets in the back room, the local team that celebrate a victory there, and the family that has gathered around the same table for decades. A historic building may retain architectural interest after it ceases to operate as a pub, but a historic pub that continues to serve its community combines architectural, cultural and social value, and our policy should recognise all three.
I am concerned that debates about heritage can sometimes become too focused on labels: we discuss whether a building is listed, whether it appears on a register or whether it meets a particular statutory definition. Those questions matter, because legal protection often depends on them, but a community’s attachment to a pub does not begin on the day a local authority adds it to a list, and neither does a pub’s cultural significance disappear because it falls just outside a definition drawn up in Westminster.
Warrington has some wonderful examples of historic public houses. The Barley Mow, whose origins date back to 1561, is a remarkable timber-framed building where the ancient beams and historic panelling connect us with earlier generations. The Ferry Tavern, which was first licensed in 1762, occupies a distinctive setting between the Mersey and the Sankey and alongside the trans-Pennine trail. There are many, many more—too many to mention.
These are not simply commercial premises; they are part of the character and story of our area. Once a historic building has been demolished, no subsequent register can bring it back. That is why early identification, good information, effective enforcement and timely decisions are so important. However, the lesson should not simply be that every pub requires another statutory designation. Local authorities need the knowledge, resources and confidence to use the powers that they already possess, and communities need meaningful opportunities to influence decisions before it is too late.
Pubs are already protected by the planning system. Proposals to demolish a pub or change its use require a planning application, because pubs are deliberately excluded from the relevant permitted development rights, so an owner cannot simply assume that a pub can be demolished or converted without scrutiny. The local planning authority has an opportunity to consider the proposal, assess its impact and apply the relevant planning policy.
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend continues to make an excellent speech. On the subject of planning systems and frameworks, does she share my concern that, despite the good intentions of this Bill, the additional layers of bureaucracy that may be put on the owners of a pub, planning authorities and others might cause more friction in the system than is intended?
Sarah Hall
I absolutely agree. I think we need to focus on ensuring that the current legislation is more robust and is enforced, rather than adding extra layers, as my hon. Friend says.
The current policies already act as an important safeguard, so creating another legal requirement will not necessarily produce a better practical outcome. Local planning authorities already have powers to issue enforcement notices where there has been a breach of planning control, and non-compliance with an enforcement notice can result in an unlimited fine on conviction. That is a substantial sanction. The challenge is ensuring that breaches are identified, investigated and dealt with promptly. There is an important difference between a lack of legal power and a failure to use existing powers effectively.
Local planning authorities can also create local lists of buildings of historic architectural interest, including heritage pubs. These non-designated heritage assets receive consideration through the national planning policy framework when relevant planning decisions are made. That matters, because heritage is not restricted to nationally famous landmarks. A pub can be central to the identity of a neighbourhood without meeting the criteria for a statutory listing.
There is also a building preservation notice; where a local planning authority considers that a building of special architectural or historic interest is at risk of demolition or harmful alteration, it can serve a notice and apply for the building to be considered for listing. These are already meaningful tools. The practical question for Warrington South is whether our council has the information and the resources it needs to identify vulnerable historic pubs and make effective use of those powers.
The importance of a pub is often best understood by the people who use it. The assets of community value scheme, introduced through the Localism Act 2011, allows communities in England to nominate buildings or land that further the social wellbeing or social interests of their community. The local authority considers whether the nomination meets the statutory definition and decides whether the asset should be listed, giving residents a formal way of saying, “This place matters to us, and its importance should be recognised.”
Residents are often best placed to explain why a particular pub matters. It might provide a meeting place for older people or host organisations and all the other great things that have been identified before, but an asset of community value listing is not an absolute guarantee that a building will remain open as a pub. The existing scheme provides a process for community involvement when a listed asset is put up for sale, but it does not generally compel the owner to sell to a community group or to accept its offer. That distinction matters.
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend raises a good point about involving the community in assets of community value. We are talking about heritage pubs. Pubs absolutely have a value to the community, but if the community decides that it wants to use them for a different purpose, is the asset of community value not a better mechanism for doing that than the Bill we are debating?
Sarah Hall
Absolutely, and I will move on to the community right to buy, which is incredibly significant here. The English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026 is intended to give communities the first opportunity to purchase an asset of community value. As a Labour and Co-operative MP, I am incredibly passionate about giving power to communities to run things, as they know how they would serve and fit in their areas. That is incredibly powerful, and I would love to see more of that.
Anna Dixon
I totally agree with my hon. Friend about the importance of communities being able to take over important buildings of community value, including heritage pubs, which is what we are talking about today. In the centre of Bingley we have Bingley pool, the old swimming pool, which is really important to local people. The Friends of Bingley Pool want to take it over as a community asset, but they are getting little support from the Reform-led council. Does my hon. Friend agree that we need supportive local government to help to implement these policies?
Sarah Hall
Absolutely, and I am a big advocate for communities taking over things like leisure centres. In Warrington South, the community is taking over sports pitches as well, because they are better able to access the funding they need, and they know what the demands are in the area and are best placed to support and reinvest in those things. I encourage all local authorities to get behind this incredibly powerful provision.
As we have said, the Bill could represent a substantial change in the opportunities available to communities seeking to acquire their local pub. The purpose of the legislation should be to make it easier for residents to save a valued pub, not leave them navigating an unnecessarily complicated set of rules. For Warrington South, that means listening to residents, community groups, publicans and local businesses about what would genuinely help them.
Mike Wood
The hon. Lady spoke about the Ferry Tavern in her constituency—an 18th century pub, like the Crooked House was—which is not an asset of community value. Does she think that is because her residents do not care about it, or is it because of a failure on the part of the council or a gap in the system?
Sarah Hall
It is an incredibly valued and unusual pub, which is very much loved in the community. I would welcome anyone coming along to see it.
If we want to understand why pubs and brewing matters to Warrington, we have to look beyond buildings and planning applications to the events that bring people together. One example of that is Warrington Oktoberfest. Last week, I sponsored a barrel at this year’s event.
Sarah Hall
Yes, and it was excellent. Many people know Oktoberfest as a chance to enjoy great beer, live music and time with friends, but Warrington Oktoberfest is much more than that. At its heart, it is a community-led charity event that has brought people together for nearly three decades while raising money for good causes locally and internationally.
The festival, held at the local Parr Hall, began with a relatively small gathering of real ale enthusiasts 30 years ago. The idea came from Cliff Houghton, a member of Warrington rotary club who was also a master brewer at a local brewery. Through the commitment of volunteers, that modest initiative grew into a major fixture in Warrington’s calendar, offering a wide range of beers, ciders and entertainment, and opportunities for people to come together. Since the festival’s inception, it has raised more than £350,000 for charity.
Alex Ballinger
May I join my hon. Friend in congratulating the organisers of that festival on the charitable contributions they have made? I would also like to congratulate the organisers of the Halesowen beer, cider and gin festival at Halesowen cricket club. They have done fantastic work to bring the community together in Halesowen to enjoy all those different drinks and contribute to the community.
Sarah Hall
I echo those comments. Our event has been supporting incredible charities in our town such as St Rocco’s hospice and the homelessness charity Room at the Inn, as well as many international charitable projects.
Anna Dixon
I wish to put on the record one of our fantastic local beer festivals. The Bradford beer festival run by CAMRA takes place in Saltaire town hall. One particularly noteworthy thing is that it links up with local heritage pubs around Saltaire so that they are part of the wider festival. The Bradford beer festival not only celebrates our fantastic locally brewed beers from Goose Eye Brewery and Bingley Brewery but makes sure that heritage pubs such as Fanny’s Ale House and the Beehive in Shipley benefit from the people coming for the festival.
Sarah Hall
Yes, that is a wonderful thing. It is also a great way for the local community to see what is on offer locally that they might not otherwise know about.
Our event is organised and hosted by rotary members and volunteers; there is no large paid workforce behind the scenes. Its success depends on people giving their time and energy to support their community. That is something worth celebrating.
Warrington rotary will soon mark its centenary, reflecting a century of service to the people of Warrington and beyond. Oktoberfest is a powerful example of that spirit of service in action. The festival illustrates that beer and hospitality are not simply about what is served across the counter; they are about volunteering, local identity, charitable fundraising, entertainment and friendship. It also demonstrates the connection between brewing and the wider community. A brewery supports suppliers, distributors, retailers and pubs. A pub provides a place where those relationships become part of everyday life, and events such as Oktoberfest bring people together and demonstrate how hospitality can support wider charitable and economic activity. The festival also highlights the important distinction that heritage needs to be sustained, not just celebrated. Its success depends on organisers, volunteers, sponsors, customers and a programme that people actually want to attend.
A historic pub faces the same basic reality. If we want pubs to remain part of our communities, we must consider how heritage protection fits alongside measures that help businesses trade successfully. The objective should be a living heritage: buildings that are cared for, businesses that can operate, and communities that continue to use and value their local spaces. All that matters because a pub’s survival can depend on the relationship between its rent, turnover and operating costs. If a business faces a period of weaker trading, an inflexible rent review mechanism can make an already difficult situation harder to manage.
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend is talking about the costs of pubs, which are incredibly important. Publicans in my constituency talk about not only energy costs but business rates and other challenges. Does she agree that the steps that the Chancellor is already making to reduce business rates for pubs will help publicans and heritage pubs in particular to continue? Will she support other measures to move business rates from the high street as well as pubs to larger online businesses, as is being proposed?
Sarah Hall
That is incredibly important. Such measures will make a big difference to businesses, and any little bit of help would be fantastic at this time. I speak a lot to publicans in my constituency about the issue.
The fundamental question at the heart of this debate is what exactly we are trying to preserve. If the answer is an architectural asset, the planning and listed buildings systems provide important tools. If the answer is a building with historical significance for its community, local heritage lists and assets of community value provide routes for recognition. If the answer is the opportunity for a community to take ownership of a pub when it is sold, the community right to buy is directly relevant. If the answer is a business that needs to operate on sustainable commercial terms, tenancy rules and wider economic conditions also matter.
The answer is often all those things at once, but different problems may require different solutions. A pub can retain its exterior while losing its historic interior; it can retain its architectural character while ceasing to function as a pub; and it can be purchased by a community group and still struggle to cover its costs. Equally, a pub that is not nationally listed may remain a thriving centre of community life for generations. The challenge is to design legislation that recognises those differences, rather than treating every heritage pub as if it faces identical risks.
The question is not whether heritage matters—it plainly does; it is how Parliament can best protect it. I want to bring this debate back to the people and places of Warrington South. When we speak about the borough’s brewing heritage, we are discussing a history of work, enterprise and community. When we speak about 4T’s Brewery, we are discussing the continuation of brewing traditions and the entrepreneurial spirit that keeps them alive. When we speak about historic pubs, from the Barlow Mow to the Ferry Tavern, we are discussing buildings that connect us to earlier generations. When we speak about Warrington Oktoberfest, we are discussing volunteers, charities and residents coming together to turn community spirit into practical support for others.
Those things deserve attention from Parliament. But the best way to protect them is not necessarily to create the largest possible number of new legal requirements; it is to identify the risks accurately, use existing powers effectively and ensure that any new powers address a genuine gap. It is to support independent brewing and the hospitality businesses that give local products a market and to consider a building’s heritage alongside the economic circumstances that determine whether a business can continue to operate. Warrington has a proud brewing history and its pubs are part of the social and architectural story of our town.
Adam Jogee
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way; she is giving me a run for my money in terms of the length of her contribution. Does she agree that the description she has just shared with the House, on the importance of breweries, pubs and so on to her community, extends right across the United Kingdom? On Wednesday, I was in Derry/Londonderry with the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. We went to a brewery there and met the family running it. We saw the blood, sweat and tears that they put into it. As much as we are enjoying Warrington, I wanted her to give thought to breweries and pubs right across the United Kingdom.
Sarah Hall
I suppose I can do that, but Warrington is superior—we know that. [Laughter.]
Our heritage deserves to be protected, understood and passed on to each generation. For Warrington South, the stakes are not theoretical. They concern the preservation of our industrial history, the future of our independent brewing and the places where our communities continue to meet. The ultimate measure of success will not be how many pubs we place on a register, but how effectively we protect the heritage that matters, how many communities are given a genuine opportunity to save the places they value, and whether those places can continue to play a living part in our towns and villages.
Kevin Bonavia (Stevenage) (Lab)
I add my thanks to the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood). This is a really important topic and I think every Member here today has done a sterling job in speaking up for the public houses in their communities. My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (Sarah Hall) just hit the nail on the head in her comprehensive contribution. The point is that we have to be very careful about what measures we take in this place in trying to support the pubs that we care for and love. We have to think about all the ways in which we can help pubs.
First, what do we all agree on in this House? I think we all agree that pubs are at the heart of our shared national identity. For centuries, they have provided the places where strangers will socialise, friendships are formed, local traditions are sustained and communities come together. They are part of our national story, but they are also part of the everyday lives, here and now, of people in towns and villages across the country.
There are those who, if trying to survey the worth of a public house, would start by evaluating the land it is built on and the size of its rooms, surveying the roof and the foundations for damage and so on. But I believe that what we have heard from Members today is an understanding that that method would fall far short of the true value that a pub holds in our community. It is more than the sum of its parts and the fabric of its building. It is centuries of conversation echoed off its walls, the generations of locals who have passed through its doors and worn the floorboards smooth, and the warm embrace it provides to individuals and families. It is knowing that you are in your local, that you are with friends and neighbours, and that when a stranger comes in you introduce yourself to them. You hear what is going on and keep in touch not on your mobile phone, but with living human beings. A pub can serve as a living memory of the community in which it sits. That is why it is the clearest embodiment of heritage that I can think of.
Despite the many differences in life today compared with the past, and changes in how many of us think of pubs, change is not unique to our time. I represent Stevenage, a town with a distinctive place in our national history as Britain’s first post-war new town, 80 years old next month. Do come along and celebrate with us.
Matt Turmaine
My hon. Friend mentions the new town status of his constituency. I wonder if he shares my thought that it presents a model for how new towns may be able to be rolled out elsewhere in the country.
Kevin Bonavia
My hon. Friend, also from Hertfordshire, makes a really important point. There are lessons to be learnt from new towns, including how we place pubs at the heart of our community. Stevenage is salutary in that respect. When the pioneers of Stevenage put our town together, they thought very carefully about the place. Many people deride the concept of 15-minute towns as some kind of conspiracy to try to keep us trapped in our homes—far from it. The pioneers of Stevenage thought that community centres had to be no more than 15 minutes from where people live, and at the heart of that community neighbourhood would be the pub. In every neighbourhood you go to in Stevenage, you will find a pub—or a former pub, and that is the point.
Adam Jogee
I am enjoying listening to my hon. Friend talk about his new town. My town is an old town; it received its charter from King Henry II in 1173. Does he agree that it is not just in new towns where we see examples of the contribution that pubs can make, but in ancient towns like Newcastle-under-Lyme?
Kevin Bonavia
I am very happy to agree with my hon. Friend. As I was just about to say, I represent the UK’s first post-war new town, but it is built around an old town, in which I live, that still has 10 pubs along its high street. That high street is part of the Great North Road from London to Edinburgh. It was the first overnight stop for coaches, and we still have examples of coaching inns, the Red Lion being the most famous. In the old town we also have the Mulberry Tree, which was once the White Lion. My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East and Musselburgh (Chris Murray) talked about the Tolbooth Tavern on the Royal Mile having been a prison, among other things. The White Lion was also a prison, for Napoleonic prisoners of war 200 years ago. It became a vestry and a fire station, and it is now perhaps the liveliest pub down the high street on a Friday night.
Where I live, the pubs on our high street are thriving—as I said, we have 10—but across the new town, where the nearest pub should be 15 minutes’ walk away, some of those pubs have gone, such as the Twin Foxes. The oldest pub in the new town, in Bedwell, is now a block of flats, which is a salutary warning from many years ago that ensuring that pubs survive is really difficult.
Anna Dixon
My hon. Friend is celebrating his post-war new town. Saltaire in Shipley is one of the original model towns, built by the great factory owner Sir Titus Salt, who was also a philanthropist. He built many things in that village for the community—a church, a school, a library, high-quality homes and some almshouses—but one thing he did not put in the village was a pub. He was a religious man, and he decided that it was not a good thing for his workers to have access to a pub. As a consequence, the historic Victoria pub—now grade II listed—was built on the edge of Saltaire in 1875, but it had to be on the outskirts. Sadly, it is now a pubco and is seeking a tenant for its ongoing use, which shows some of the challenges for our pubs. I would—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
Order. It is an intervention, not a speech.
Kevin Bonavia
My hon. Friend makes a really important point: we need places to come together, whether we are drinking alcohol or not. In the old town in Stevenage, we have plenty of pubs. We also have lots of buildings that were pubs but are still meeting places. Conversely, we have buildings that were used for other purposes but are now pubs. For example, we have a snooker club that is now partly a microbrewery with a taproom. That has benefited from the previous Labour Government’s encouragement of microbreweries, and it has a nod to its heritage.
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend is giving an important speech. I was reflecting on the town of Stevenage only being 80 years old. In the Bill, heritage pubs are defined as those that are more than 150 years old. Although that is important—there are many pubs of that age, including in my constituency, and the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) has some fantastic ones in his area—is the Bill not exclusionary of new towns which have that heritage?
Kevin Bonavia
My hon. Friend makes a really important point. The hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire says that the Bill is for pubs that are beyond the age of 150, but the fact is that the implications of wording matter in legislation. I would have framed the Bill in a different way. More importantly, we do not always have to introduce new laws in this place; we should think about how we can better implement the laws that already exist. I will turn to that in the final part of my contribution.
On heritage, and new places that will become future heritage pubs, the Six Hills Taproom in Stevenage’s old town has a nod to its heritage. Its most famous brand of microbrew beer is the Six Hills brand.
Adam Jogee
I am very interested to hear about that brewery. What would my hon. Friend order if he were there now?
Kevin Bonavia
I was there last week. It does samples of all its beers and I tried a few tiny samples, although I made sure not to have too much. I currently like its stout, which I would recommend as my personal favourite. It is all named after the six hills, which anyone who comes into Stevenage will see. They are Roman burial mounds, so it is a nod to Stevenage’s ancient heritage—we are far more than just a new town.
Across our new town, what we do with our pubs is important. We are not supposed to talk about politics in pubs, but I wholly disagree with that. Before I became an MP, and since I have been one, I have been promoting pints with politics in local pubs—“Have a bev with Kev”—and, importantly, local residents have come in. Some people older than me who have never voted have come to say, “Why should I vote? What is this politics thing all about?” In a place like this we might almost belittle that, but we absolutely should not. We must get into our communities, and there is no better way than getting into our pubs. That is why it is so important that we in this place protect and enhance our pubs.
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend is making an important point about engagement with communities inside pubs. I go to some of the more deprived parts of my community and pop in for a pint after some door knocking. The people I talk to are completely disillusioned with politics, but the opportunity for them to engage with their Member of Parliament, in a space that they are comfortable in and among their community, is vital. I celebrate and congratulate my hon. Friend on doing that, and encourage more of my colleagues to do the same.
Kevin Bonavia
I am sure that all Members of the House do our best to get out to wherever our constituents are, and there is no better place than the local pub. Beyond Stevenage, I also represent four villages: Knebworth, Codicote, Datchworth and Aston. In Knebworth we have the Station, which is a pub that was not going to survive. It was built around the station over 100 years ago, and it became an asset of community value when councillors, residents and the parish council came together and were able to buy it. Members are welcome to pop into the Station if they are lucky enough to have a ticket to Oasis, who are playing six concerts at Knebworth Park next summer.
Kevin Bonavia
My hon. Friend asks whether I will be attending, and I really hope that I can, but whether or not people are there for Oasis, they should please come and see Knebworth. Before Oasis made their name in Knebworth in 1996 they started out in a pub, the Man in the Moon, in Stevenage.
Matt Turmaine
Having been an attendee at that concert in 1996, I wish to ask my hon. Friend whether he is aware that Liam Gallagher also frequented pubs in the neighbourhood where I grew up, and his favourite pint was a Guinness.
Kevin Bonavia
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Far be it from me to cast aspersions about where Liam Gallagher has been drinking around the country, but I am sure wherever he goes, he brings joy to the venues he attends. The point about the Man in the Moon in Stevenage is that although it is only a few decades old, we need to make sure that it is remembered for its heritage over those decades, not hundreds of years ago. That is a point that I do not think this Bill addresses head-on.
The Rose & Crown in Aston is another pub that was not going to survive. In that case, residents bought community shares in the pub and it survived, so we have two examples of pubs surviving in my constituency. That is great—the mechanisms are in place, but people need to be willing to come forward and need the funds to do it. To come back to what my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and Solway (Markus Campbell-Savours) said earlier, we need to make sure that when the community has that will, it also has the ability to purchase and run these pubs. That is no mean feat, and it is not simply about legislation; we have to think far more about how we make that possible. I hope the Minister can touch on that issue in her winding-up remarks.
I have given the House examples from Stevenage of why protection of our pubs matters. As has been said by other Members, we already have protections in place, and new ones will come in this year and next through the devolution Act. I encourage other communities to take advantage of those protections, but beyond that, we need to make sure that we are protecting existing pubs and other enterprises.
Mike Wood
The hon. Gentleman has referred to a number of important and valuable pubs in his constituency, but none of them seems to be an asset of community value. That system has been in place for 15 years. If it is an effective protection, why does he think so few communities have registered their important pubs as assets of community value? What has prevented them from doing so?
Kevin Bonavia
We could have a whole debate about the reasons for that, outside of today’s Second Reading debate. One of the most important reasons, I think, is that the community needs to be given the ability, awareness and wherewithal to do it in the first place. It is not just about making laws; what really counts is what we do with them. As such, while I am pleased that new legislation is coming in that is going to help protect pubs regardless of what happens to today’s Bill, and while I am pleased that this Government have made such an effort to support existing pub businesses around the country—remember, one in six pubs were lost during the tenure of the last Government—
Alex Ballinger
I was just reflecting on the exchange about assets of community value. I have many people in my constituency who want to support pubs, set up community spaces and support and set up charities, but there seems to be a gap in education—in giving the community the tools to enable them to do that. I know that this topic is slightly adjacent to the Bill we are debating, but because we can also talk about heritage pubs as part of that, does my hon. Friend think that local government has a bigger role to play in providing that education to communities that want to take that step?
Kevin Bonavia
That is a really important point—we have to use all the tools at our disposal. We as individual Members of Parliament cannot do that alone; we need to work with our communities. There is no better example than our local authorities, but beyond that, it was the parish councils in Aston and Knebworth that made possible what I have described. They were the ones who went out and put the letters through letterboxes, and all of that. Really, that is what matters—it is human beings who make our pubs, and that is where I want to end today, Madam Deputy Speaker. This is about making our pubs places for people.
Dr Peter Prinsley (Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket) (Lab)
This has been a very interesting debate, which has been very long. Perhaps like many other hon. Members, I am beginning to feel the need for a beer.
First of all, I should like to thank the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) for bringing forward this very interesting debate. Members may notice that he is wearing a tie that is the same as mine—it is the tie for the APPG on beer. I would like to recommend that all Members present consider membership of the APPG, as I can see it is something in which we all have an interest. The APPG holds a marvellous dinner in the ballroom of the Institute of Civil Engineers once a year, which I have now been to twice. I should like to recommend it to all Members.
Anna Dixon
As a member of the APPG on beer, could my hon. Friend recommend his favourite beer?
Dr Prinsley
I will come to that in a moment. I certainly do have a favourite beer. [Interruption.] If you’ll allow me one moment—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
Order. Do you need your phone and your papers?
Dr Prinsley
I have something written on my phone, which has been sent to me, that I would like to read.
Adam Jogee
While my hon. Friend thinks about the contribution he is about to make, the hon. Member for Melksham and Devizes (Brian Mathew) and I had the pleasure of visiting my hon. Friend’s constituency not that long ago. The sad thing is, we did not manage to visit a pub. If we had, which one should we have gone to?
Dr Prinsley
I am grateful for that question; I shall answer it.
In April 1911, The Bury and Norwich Post listed 79 hostelries in Bury. By 2019, there were only 21. Here is a little ditty about them:
“The ‘Three Kings’ joined in the sport and chased him round a ‘Wheatsheaf’ to the ‘Suffolk Hunt’ onto ‘Cupola House’ where the ‘Red Lion’ stopped their sport. Looking for more fun a ‘Swan’ was seen near the ‘Elephant and Castle’ looking for the ‘Market Tavern’ when the ‘Old Angel’ came along and led it astray to the ‘Rutland Arms’ and sent for the ‘Shepherd and Dog’ to convey it to the ‘Railway Tavern’ to be packed up with the ‘Saracen’s Head’ and sent as a present to the ‘Cricketers’ (who were having dinner at the ‘Dog and Partridge’).
On their way, the ‘Ram’ saw the ‘Half Moon’ in the ‘Nutshell’ and did a ‘Star’ performance amongst the old curiosities, knocking down ‘Three Horse Shoes’, exploding an old ‘Cannon’ and blowing off the ‘Kings Arms’ which were sent to the ‘Joiners Arms’ to be repaired; after which he went to the ‘New Inn’ for refreshments which made him a bit lively and getting all the ‘Taps’ to join him they went to the ‘Suffolk Shades’ to empty the ‘Gallon Can’ which they did to their sorrow for the police had to send them to ‘Ipswich (Arms)’ to get sober. They were last seen near the ‘Tollgate’ singing, we are all ‘Jolly Good Fellows’ and that’s that!”
I apologise for reading that out.
Adam Jogee
I really enjoyed that, but the one thing my hon. Friend did not do was answer the question I put to him before he performed, which was: where should the hon. Member for Melksham and Devizes and I have gone when we were in his constituency?
Dr Prinsley
My hon. Friend must have a moment more patience, for I am coming to that.
Pubs have been at the heart of life in Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket for centuries. They are part of our history, our local economy and our communities, and my constituency has no shortage of remarkable stories to tell.
Greene King has brewed in Bury St Edmunds since 1799. Its Level Head beer has made it into the Strangers Bar. I feel that the Chancellor should be offered a pint before the Budget, for if ever there was a speech that required a level head, that is surely it.
But Greene King is not living on its history. Last year, I joined the company as work began on its new £40 million brewery at the Suffolk business park, which will be completed next spring. It will keep brewing in Bury St Edmunds, sustain local employment and make production more sustainable. Now, that is heritage and growth working together.
At the all-party parliamentary beer group dinner to which I referred, Mr Nick Mackenzie, the chief executive of Greene King, was sitting at my table and was given the Community Hero award for the actions that Greene King has taken in the community in Bury St Edmunds. It is a fantastic local business. I mentioned that to our former Prime Minister, who said that he would be content to come and open the brewery when it opens next spring. I said to him, “All we need to do now is organise a parliamentary piss-up in a brewery,” and he said, “What could possibly go wrong?”
Alex Ballinger
What a magnificent story! I just want to reflect on the community value that pubs and breweries can add, on top of their location and heritage. In my constituency, the Hunting Tree pub has recently been taken over by new owners, who are doing a fantastic job at bringing in families through activities in the garden, while raising money for Guide Dogs. Could my hon. Friend talk about other examples in his constituency of where the community has benefited not just by going to the pub, but through the activities of pubs and breweries?
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. Before you get to your feet, Dr Prinsley, I remind you that you are speaking through the Chair. I must not be staring at your back.
Dr Prinsley
I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker.
It is well known that Charles Dickens stayed at the Angel hotel in 1835, and it later featured in “The Pickwick Papers”. He returned regularly to give readings next door. Two centuries on, guests can still stay in the very same room associated with his visits. Of course, most hoteliers would simply settle for a good online review.
The Masons Arms occupies a building dating back to the early 16th century. In Stowmarket, the Royal William, a traditional backstreet pub that was granted its licence only in the 1960s, serves real ale by gravity. There are plenty of things I would like to see modernised, but certainly not that.
I come to my favourite pub, the Nutshell. [Hon. Members: “Aha!”] It is listed in the “Guinness Book of Records” as the smallest pub in the country, at just 15 feet long by 7 feet wide, complete with a mummified cat. In 1984, an extraordinary 102 people and a dog called Blob reportedly squeezed inside. Any of us who struggle to find a seat at Prime Minister’s questions should count their blessings.
Stowmarket once had a pub called the Hop Pole Tavern, which had a railway siding running all the way through it. I support travelling to the pub by train, but that was taking integrated transport rather too literally.
I have already read out one of the ditties about Bury St Edmunds’ pubs, so I shall not tell the House another one, although there are several.
Anna Dixon
I thank my hon. Friend for addressing the question posed by our hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Adam Jogee) about his favourite pub, but I am still waiting in suspense to learn what his favourite beer is. Could he please put me out of my misery?
Dr Prinsley
I will come to that—[Laughter.] But I want to make a more serious point.
As we know, sadly, many pubs have disappeared. I understand that we lost something like 7,000 pubs during the 14 years of Conservative rule, and we continue to lose them. Anyone who walks around our towns or drives through the country can see closed-down pubs, but habits have changed and laws have changed. Some of these laws are exceptionally good ideas. For instance, the law about drink-driving is an excellent idea and has saved thousands of lives. I recall my father, who was a physician, telling me years ago that if people were caught drink-driving following an accident when he was young, the fact that they were drunk was regarded as an excuse. Times have moved on considerably.
Linsey Farnsworth
Yesterday the Ripley fair was opened on the marketplace of Ripley by the mayor. It is the 775th fair. On the subject of drink-driving, several pubs are on that marketplace and I dare say that some people will be frequenting them before going on the dodgems. I wonder what my hon. Friend would have to say about that.
Dr Prinsley
I would say that it is probably a poor idea to fill oneself up with alcohol and then go on the dodgems. I think it would exacerbate the vestibular upset.
Matt Turmaine
My hon. Friend mentions that his father, too, was a physician. I wonder whether their opinions differ on whether more healthy benefits are to be derived from lager or bitter, based on their experience?
Dr Prinsley
Lager, in my time, was regarded as a sort of new-fangled drink that was drunk in other countries. In Yorkshire in those days very few people drank lager.
I also want to talk about the smoking ban—I did say I was going to have a serious section in my speech. One of the reasons why people have stopped going to pubs is because there is no smoking allowed in pubs. Stopping smoking is one of the best things we have done. The Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026, which sets out that people will have to be older and older in order to buy cigarettes is, in my opinion, the single best thing that we have done. That single measure will save more lives than anything else we are likely to do in this Parliament. I applaud that, but I recognise that it has had consequences for pubs, where people would gather to drink beer, smoke and have good cheer.
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point about the health benefit of the cigarette ban in pubs. I, too, welcome the Tobacco and Vapes Act and the measure to increase the age limit periodically so that people who are young today cannot smoke. Do you think that, because there has been such a reduction in number of people who are smoking, especially at a younger age, in due course it may become a benefit for pubs? The drag of no longer being allowed to smoke inside would no longer be a problem because people are not smoking.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
Order. Before Dr Prinsley gets to his feet, I remind Members that there should be no “you” or “yours”, because they are speaking through the Chair.
Dr Prinsley
I simply think that the smoking ban is an utterly brilliant thing to do. I cannot predict what will happen to pubs as a result of it, but it has not been good for country pubs.
Before I conclude, I want to make one remark about the issue of supermarkets and the cost of beer in convenience stores. In the convenience store at the bottom of my street, it is less expensive to buy a slab of lager than to buy a slab of Coca-Cola. Something has gone seriously wrong with the pricing arrangements for beer. I see that Greene King has now discontinued its off-licence production and will now only sell beer in pubs. I would like very much to see something done within our tax system to make it much less attractive to buy alcohol in convenience stores and supermarkets.
Anna Dixon
I wonder whether my hon. Friend is aware of the Society of Independent Brewers and Associates’ campaign “Drop the Tap Tax”, which seeks to lower the alcohol duty on beer sold in pubs specifically via hand-pulls and keg taps. Would that be something that he would like to discuss with the Chancellor over a pint of Greene King, which is perhaps his favourite beer?
Dr Prinsley
I would very much like to speak to the Chancellor over a pint of beer about quite a number of things; perhaps that is something that I could request.
I simply cannot go on with this speech forever, but let me say that I welcome many aspects of the Bill. Its ambition to identify and protect heritage pubs is welcome, but a simple register will not pay the electricity bill. Protection must go hand in hand with helping pubs to adapt, remain accessible and, crucially, stay commercially viable. I want the next generation to know our pubs not only from old photographs, but from Sunday lunches, quiz nights and conversations with neighbours. They must not be left as empty buildings. We must keep them alive. Let us protect their history and give all our locals a future worth drinking to.
Chris Murray (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to take part in this debate; I have had a very enjoyable tour of the historic pubs of England this afternoon. I thank the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) for introducing the Bill. It is an important moment that has given us all an opportunity to pay tribute to the outstanding contribution that heritage pubs make not just to just the communities we represent, but to the fabric of our national identity in the UK. We have heard contributions from across the House and the country about the amazing pubs that we have. The hon. Member said that the case of the Crooked House was the genesis of the Bill. Although I never got the opportunity to visit that pub, the case was an outrage. I vividly remember the coverage and understand completely the argument that something so appalling should never have been allowed to happen.
Heritage pubs are crucial. There are so many in my constituency, and I do my best to support them as the local Member of Parliament by visiting them all assiduously.
Chris Murray
I do not know if that is possible, but I assure my hon. Friend that I am putting my shoulder to the wheel and doing my best.
While I support pubs as a patron, I am afraid I cannot claim to have supported them behind the bar. As a young man, I got a job in a pub and managed to last one day before being sacked because I was completely incompetent.
Pubs in Scotland and the rest of the UK face pressures, but issues like upkeep costs, building maintenance and the higher bills associated with an historic site can result in extra pressures for heritage pubs. Although the Bill applies only in England and Wales, let me be the voice of heritage pubs in Scotland in this debate, because I think the perspective from Scotland will be instructive for Members in understanding the shared challenges our pubs face on both sides of the border. As a passionate believer in the United Kingdom, I passionately believe that while we have different ecosystems and face different challenges, what unites us is far stronger than what divides us. We can learn so much from and support each other.
The pubs in Edinburgh East and Musselburgh tell the story of the challenges that historic pubs face. The hon. Member for Spelthorne (Lincoln Jopp), who is no longer in his place, suggested that by mentioning a pub, an MP is hoping to get a free pint when they visit—he underestimates what it takes to get a free pint out of an Edinburgh publican! I think the Sheep Heid Inn in Duddingston in my constituency, which opened in 1360, is the oldest pub in Scotland and potentially the oldest pub referenced in the Chamber today. It lies between Edinburgh castle, in one part of my constituency, and Craigmillar castle, in the other, and was famously a stopping point for King James VI as he travelled between them. There is no better way to spend a day in Edinburgh than climbing Arthur’s Seat and then descending to the Sheep Heid for a pint.
I have already told Members about the Tolbooth Tavern on Canongate in the Royal Mile, which was used as a council chamber, a prison and later a pub.
Linsey Farnsworth
As a former Crown prosecutor, I cannot resist the opportunity to talk about the law or prisons whenever they are mentioned, but on this occasion I wanted to ask my hon. Friend if he would like to join me at some point in the future for a cocktail at the Moot bar in Alfreton, in my constituency? It does great cocktails and it is on the site of a moot hall, from which jury trials are thought to originate.
Chris Murray
I would very much enjoy visiting that pub with my hon. Friend, but only on condition that she comes with me to another pub in my constituency connected with the criminal justice system: the White Hart inn on the Grassmarket, where I spent Saturday night. That pub was founded in 1510, although the current building dates from early Georgian times, when there was no better day out in Edinburgh than to go and watch a public execution on the Grassmarket, followed by a drink in the White Hart inn. We do not do that any more, although during the Edinburgh festival it is fun to go and see some comedians get murdered, then go to the White Hart for a pint afterwards!
In these historic pubs, one feels a connection not just with the whole community, but with the history of the place. I think of the Ensign Ewart, just outside the gates of Edinburgh castle, which is named after a hero of Waterloo and still contains memorabilia from that battle.
In Edinburgh, these pubs in the Old Town have made an outstanding contribution to world history. The Scottish enlightenment took place in the Old Town of Edinburgh. Everybody lived in that crowded area, in flats—piled up on top of each other. At the top were the aristocrats, in the middle were the merchants and in the lower flats were the working classes and the urban poor. Because they were all living side by side, cheek by jowl, they would congregate in the pubs of Edinburgh, and people would talk not to those from their own social class, but to those from other social classes; they would talk about the ideas of politics, reform, religion and philosophy that were going around the continent. It is because everybody in Edinburgh had to get together in the pubs like that that they were able to exchange ideas and the enlightenment took hold in our city. We underestimate the power of pubs at our peril. Although many hon. Members have extolled the virtues of the pubs in their constituencies, I think I have one-upped everyone by claiming that western civilisation actually developed in mine.
It is not just in the medieval Old Town of Edinburgh where we can find the value of historic pubs. The Espy in Portobello is a seafront staple. Owner Amanda Caygill, who has been a long-serving part of the Portobello scene, has recently left after 19 years serving the community. I am looking forward to seeing what happens and who takes over. In Musselburgh, we have the Volunteer Arms, known to locals as Staggs. It is one of CAMRA’s real ale pubs of the year and has a beautiful Victorian interior. It recently featured in “Dept. Q” on Netflix. The owners, Katie McKenzie, Nigel Finlay and Hayley Finlay make a massive contribution to Musselburgh life. I am particularly indebted to them because when I was last there I left my keys on the bench, and they kindly put them in a taxi and sent them across Edinburgh for me.
Brian Mathew
Bannerman’s bar in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency is well frequented, especially during the Edinburgh fringe. We have heard the most wonderful arguments and expositions about pubs from Members from right across the House, but I wonder if the hon. Member is convinced that the Bill should pass?
Chris Murray
I agree with the hon. Gentleman that Bannerman’s is a fantastic Edinburgh pub. I support the principles of protecting historic pubs, and in my remarks I am underlining my support for historic pubs in my constituency. We have pubs like Bennets in Tollcross, which is a beautiful pub with dark wood and brass taps, right beside the newly reopened King’s Theatre—the Old Lady of Leven Street. The Ormelie tavern in Joppa has a historic tenement lounge. It is one of those great tenement pubs that we get in Edinburgh. I really recommend it after a day campaigning in the cold winds of Edinburgh and Portobello.
Another of my favourites is the Regent in Abbeyhill. The Regent would not qualify for the 150-year rule set out in the Bill, because it is a gay bar, and 150 years ago homosexuality was criminalised. The Regent opened in 2003—which, shockingly, was only 22 years after homosexuality was decriminalised in Scotland. That underlines the point that pubs are not just bricks and mortar, places we go or local phenomena. Look at gay bars: they are places for a community who come from far and wide, seeking people like them.
The Regent is in central Edinburgh, and I last visited after the Holyrood garden party. I walked from Holyrood palace, having seen the King and Queen, up to the Regent, where I saw some of my other fellow queens. That is the role that gay pubs can play: they bring communities together, allowing people a safe space where they do not fear attack. They are also places to which we can bring along friends from the straight community so that they can see, understand and acclimatise to our culture.
We have been talking about the closure of pubs in this country, which is a problem that we have to face, but gay pubs and LGBT venues have been closing disproportionately faster than ordinary pubs. A study by University College London found that between 2006 and 2017, 25% of all pubs had closed, but 58% of LGBT venues had closed. Pubs are not just about bricks and mortar or a geographic community but about identity, and community is not always geographic; it can go further. The Minister is the Member of Parliament for Vauxhall, so I am sure she understands well the role of LGBT venues in protecting our pubs, but I would be happy to take her to the Royal Vauxhall Tavern or the Cock Tavern in her constituency should she need any further convincing.
While my constituency is home to amazing pubs, sadly in Scotland we are governed by a Scottish National party Government. As a result of their policies, we are seeing pubs closing fast. For example, last year the Willow in Jock’s Lodge closed its doors. It was demolished just a few weeks ago to make room for student flats. Jock’s Lodge is a historical part of Edinburgh, but its character has been changing rapidly as our city grows. It has served the communities of Restalrig and Meadowbank since at least 1650, where it was the last stop on the London to Edinburgh stagecoach—those same people probably stopped at Stevenage on their way. With the Bill, the challenge is preserving the character and identity of a district as it changes. In Scotland, under SNP legislation, that is not happening. For Jock’s Lodge, Edinburgh council intervened and blocked the decision, but the Scottish Government—centralising, as always—called it in and vetoed the objections of 1,000 residents.
That comes on top of 50% of pubs in Scotland closing—a faster rate than in England. Since 2021, 293 Scottish pubs have closed permanently, with 4.1% of pubs in England having closed compared with 6.4% of pubs in Scotland. That is due to Government decisions. I counsel hon. Members to look over the border to see the mistakes that the SNP is making.
Linsey Farnsworth
I am troubled by what my hon. Friend is saying. I am not familiar with Scotland in great detail; clearly, he is an expert in the area. I visited and had a lovely time there last summer, although I am not sure it counted as summer if the weather is anything to go by. With whisky being such an important part of the economy in Scotland, does he have any thoughts about the link between pubs closing and the impact on the economy?
Chris Murray
My hon. Friend makes an incredibly important point. Scotland is the world capital of whisky. On the one hand, the spirits industry and the whisky industry are a crucial part of keeping pubs open. In my constituency, we often go into pubs and see people drinking a dram; it is not the beers and wines that keep pubs open in England. On the other hand, the challenges facing the whisky industry are the same as the ones that close pubs down south of the border. The big challenge is cost. It is much cheaper for someone to buy a bottle of whisky or gin and drink it at home, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket (Dr Prinsley) said in relation to beer. That is one of the big challenges we have.
It is not just that; it is also challenges such as business rates and planning. Members have been discussing what they see as the flaws in the English planning system to protect pubs. I listened with envy, because the rules to protect pubs are much stronger here than they are in Scotland. Free-standing pubs can still, shamefully, be demolished without planning permission in Scotland, and CAMRA has long called for that loophole to be closed. In England, demolishing a pub or changing its use needs a planning application, because pubs are deliberately excluded from the relevant development rights. That allows councils a chance to weigh up any impact. In Scotland, that is not the case. Pubs are better protected in England, and I would like us to follow suit in Scotland.
The UK Labour Government have brought in business rates relief that will help pubs, but in Scotland those have not properly and fairly been passed to pubs in the community. As always in Scotland under the SNP, while the proposal from the Scottish Government may sound generous on paper, the reality is—and the pub industry argues—that the way they have structured the relief leaves many businesses worse off. On average, a pub in my constituency would have been paying £36,000 extra in rates had the SNP not been forced to backtrack.
It is important to hear the cross-party and cross-country support in the Chamber for heritage pubs. I am happy to work with any Member from any party who wants to build them up. I welcome many aspects of the Bill. Community ownership, bringing people together and allowing our local economy to thrive are crucial roles that historic pubs have been playing in our constituencies for literally centuries. Long may they continue to do so.
Anna Dixon (Shipley) (Lab)
I am delighted to speak in this debate, and I thank the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) for bringing the Bill forward. I do not think any of us in the House would question his motivation. We heard the passion with which he spoke of the terrible destruction that befell the Crooked House pub in his constituency; I think many of us remember hearing about it in the news and the events that followed.
As we have heard in so many fantastic contributions from Members across the House, we all share the desire not only to preserve the heritage pubs that have been at the heart of our villages and communities for centuries but to ensure they continue to thrive for decades or, we hope, centuries to come. As we have heard, these pubs are so much more than small businesses. They are community institutions. They are places where memories are formed. They are places where history is made. My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East and Musselburgh (Chris Murray) is claiming one of the pubs in his constituency as the birth of the enlightenment. It is very tricky for me to match that, although we do have very interesting and historic pubs across Shipley.
Pubs are meeting places and places of history. For me, pubs are where I gather with my family—my mum and dad, my brother, sisters, nieces and nephews—on family occasions, around a large table, often enjoying a Sunday roast with large portions of Yorkshire pudding, washed down with one of my favourite locally-brewed pints. It is difficult to mention what my favourite beer is, unlike my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket (Dr Prinsley)—I am assuming that his favourite beer is Greene King, because he mentioned it a lot in his speech. I will have to mention several of my favourite local brews: Saltaire Brewery, the Goose Eye Brewery in Crossflats and the Bingley Brewery in Wilsden all produce excellent craft brews.
Those local independent breweries also need relationships with the local heritage pubs. Sometimes the tied pubcos prevent those independent breweries selling their beer in the pubs that are almost across the road. We need to look more broadly at not only the heritage pubs but the relationships between independent pubs and breweries, to ensure that the whole industry thrives.
Shipley is home to many charismatic, historic pubs that welcome locals and visitors alike. I have, because of the generosity of colleagues, been able to briefly mention a few of those historic pubs, but I will come back to one or two and give more detail about them. The Malt Shovel in Harden is a grade II listed building that lies next to one of two Roman roads that run through the village. It is believed to have been constructed as early as 1550, and as we have heard from other Members, it had a number of historical uses, including a farmhouse, a coaching house, a courtroom and a prison.
There does seem to be some connection between pubs and prisons, so I better watch out when I am next down there enjoying a pint that somebody does not decide to put me in the cell. The pub has a cell room from that time, complete with a barred window. Thankfully, I have thus far avoided that when I have been down there. That is partly because I would rather sit in the pub’s spacious beer garden, particularly after having done door knocking, which I tend to focus on during a summer blitz of the villages.
The Malt Shovel is as cosy inside, with a warm fire in the inglenook fireplace, which is reported to date back to the time of William and Mary. In the Bill, I am interested in the point about how we preserve the interiors of the pubs. As everybody has said, the character of historic pubs is not only the external façade but the interior, whether that is the inglenook fireplace, beams or other features. I would like to understand how we can preserve the interiors of heritage pubs.
The second pub that I briefly mentioned and will come back to because it is pertinent to the Bill is The Old Glen House in Baildon. It is a beautiful old building, dating back at least 500 years. At the moment, my constituents and I are very worried about its future. It has had a few years of intermittent closures, and following the departure of the recent tenants, it remains closed. It is currently missing a roof.
At my recent townhall question and answer session in Baildon, one of my constituents raised the matter of the pub. When pubs stand empty, they are at higher risk of arson—I realise that in the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire’s case there is still a pending court case, but we also see it elsewhere. The building is neglected, and the lack of roof could lead to internal damage. My constituents are rightly concerned about the impact on the building of its standing empty, and about its future.
The Old Glen House is a popular pub. It stands on the edge of Shipley glen on Baildon moor. It is a fantastic spot that people love to come to. They come on the train to Saltaire, they go through the historic Roberts Park in the Saltaire world heritage site. They catch the Shipley Glen Tramway, which is an incredible feat of Victorian engineering from 1895—it used to come up to Shipley glen where there was a fairground. That is where the pub is, and it is a fantastic local asset. I will be working with local residents, learning from some of the examples we have heard in the Chamber today of how communities have come together, but the first thing is to put pressure on the pubco to ensure it makes the necessary improvements, brings it back to its former glory and protects this valuable, community pub, the Old Glen House.
We have heard a lot about community assets and some of the challenges for communities to do that. That is one thing we need to try to understand. It is fantastic—I am a member of the Co-operative party as well—that the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026 gives new powers for communities to buy assets. Communities face a lot of obstacles, as we heard so eloquently from my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and Solway (Markus Campbell-Savours).
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Sir Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. My point of order arises from the written statement issued by the Government today about the covid-19 inquiry module 4 report. That report was issued exactly six months ago, so the Government have presented their response on the very last day when that could be done. But instead of being a specific answer to the recommendations in the report, the response merely says that the Government want more time.
I am particularly concerned about Baroness Hallett’s recommendations for specific changes that she thought should be made to the vaccine damage payments scheme. Today the Government are saying that they note those and recognise
“the trauma and distress caused to families facing long waits for the processing of their claims. We take these concerns very seriously and will look further at what needs to be done”—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
Order. Sir Christopher, this is not a matter for the Chair, who is not responsible for the content of statements put out by the Government. You have most definitely made your point; no doubt Treasury Benchers have been making a note of it. Either the Government will respond or you can take further advice from the Clerks about how you can pursue your point further.
Critical Transport Infrastructure: Surrey Heath
(1 day, 15 hours ago)
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Dr Al Pinkerton (Surrey Heath) (LD)
There is very little that gives me more pleasure on a Friday afternoon than to talk about critical transport infrastructure in Surrey Heath. I am grateful to the House for allowing this Adjournment debate, and to the Minister for responding this afternoon.
If a person were to look at a map of the United Kingdom, they would perhaps think that Surrey Heath ought to be a well-connected place. We have the M3 on our doorstep—indeed, it runs right through the middle of the constituency. We have London nearby, we have thriving businesses, and we have the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst, over which I sometimes argue with the hon. Member for Bracknell (Peter Swallow). However, try getting across Lightwater at rush hour, catching a train from Camberley or reaching hospital without a car, and a different picture emerges. At the last census, 56% of Surrey Heath households had two or more cars or vans, compared with 35% across England and Wales. We are in the top 10% most car-dependent constituencies in the country. I would contend that that does not reflect choice; rather, it reflects how little choice people have. Residential housing has dramatically expanded, public services have been rationalised, and the transport connecting them has barely kept up.
There are so many issues that I want to raise today, but in the interests of time, I am going to restrict myself to just three. The first is the ongoing daily nightmare that is junction 3 of the M3 and the A322 at the aforementioned Lightwater. Anyone tuning in to a morning traffic report on BBC Radio 2 or LBC will be all too familiar with the name of Lightwater—it features with depressing regularity. For those Members who do not know, the A322 provides a vital link between Bracknell and Guildford. Businesses and commuters depend on it, and when junction 3 seizes up, the costs are felt across the entire corridor. People are late for work, deliveries are delayed and engines idle, polluting the air and wasting fuel. Productive time disappears in queues. The corridor connects two major centres of employment, yet we seem remarkably willing to accept its regular failure as an unavoidable fact of life.
Then, there are the consequences for the villages around junction 3. Drivers divert through neighbouring communities, and roads outside people’s homes become rat runs. Residents describe speeding, dangerous manoeuvres and difficulty crossing the road. I know that this is not unique to Surrey Heath, but there have been serious accidents—including fatal ones—and there are continuing concerns about safety. This is an issue that Surrey county council has neglected for years, but on the topic of highways funding, it has long raised a legitimate concern. Surrey carries significant through traffic, much of it originating outside the county, yet road maintenance funding has historically been based on road length and physical assets, rather than how heavily roads are actually used.
It is reasonable to ask whether a county carrying such an enormous volume of traffic receives a fair allocation to maintain its roads, and I join Surrey county council in asking that question, but the problems at junction 3 and the A322 go well beyond routine maintenance. Years of inadequate investment have left a problem too large for a local roads authority to resolve from its own resources. The A322 is a strategically important economic corridor that is bound up with one of the busiest parts of our motorway network, so I hope the Minister will resist the temptation to tell me that the A322 is simply a local problem requiring a local solution.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Justin Madders)
indicated dissent.
Dr Pinkerton
I see the Minister shaking his head, and I am encouraged by that visual sign. We already know who maintains the A322, but the heart of the problem is the way in which the A322 interacts with the M3. If Surrey county council and National Highways cannot tackle that challenge between themselves, the Government will be required to step in to help broker a solution.
In March last year, Ministers confirmed that National Highways had completed an initial study of junction 3 and was progressing further feasibility work on both short-term improvements and larger-scale interventions. That work was intended to shape investment decisions under the now-published third road investment strategy. I would welcome an update on what has happened to that work, and what prospect there is of securing funding for the improvements that are needed.
My first request of the Department, though, is to bring National Highways, Surrey county council, the incoming West Surrey council, Bracknell Forest council and any other interested local stakeholder, plus Surrey police, together for an urgent strategic review of the whole corridor. That review must examine the economic costs of congestion, road safety, the consequences for residential communities and the demands of future development. I hope that it will also identify practical improvements that can be delivered quickly, alongside properly costed proposals for larger works.
Residents have campaigned for improvements to this junction for decades. Indeed, my predecessor as MP—Michael Gove, who is now a noble Lord—clearly recognised its importance, having spent many years being photographed beside it. However, the people of Lightwater have had enough of photo opportunities, and they have certainly had enough of me standing beside that same junction; instead, they want investment. They deserve to know what can be done, what it will cost and when decisions might be made.
I also want to raise the issue of current and future interactions of new housing targets on public infrastructure. That brings me to rail connectivity in Surrey Heath. Camberley, our principal market town, is only 30 miles from central London. It is considered to be at the heart of the home counties commuter belt, yet there are only two direct morning trains to Waterloo, each taking 73 minutes. Every other service requires at least one change. From Farnborough, Waterloo can be reached in only 37 minutes, and from Woking, which is not too far away, it can be reached in just 27 minutes. Even Winchester has trains that reach London in under an hour, despite being double the distance from London Waterloo. It is little wonder that so many residents begin their rail journeys by driving further away from their nearest train station.
After two years of pressing South Western Railway, I recently received the Wessex suburban journey time study—it is a thrilling and exciting read, and I recommend it to all present. It suggests potential time savings of just six minutes from Camberley, seven minutes from Bagshot and nine minutes from Frimley, yet passengers would depart later and arrive at Waterloo at precisely the same time under the new plans. We need the study to be developed into costed options for faster, direct services, including the infrastructure investment required to make a meaningful difference.
Rail is only one part of the picture; buses are another part. When I asked my local residents about the issues they would like me to raise today, the frequency, reliability and extent of bus services was near the top of their list. They want reliable buses that genuinely serve their communities and connect to other transport nodes, such as local railway stations, but that are timed so that they can fit into the lived reality of the school day, for example, rather than a transport planner’s interpretation of it. When bus services cannot be trusted or simply do not fit into people’s lives, they invariably turn to their cars, adding to congestion and the troubles in our local road network, undermining the economic case for the bus services that remain. That is not a desirable position to be in.
Those pressures will only grow if new housing is not matched by better transport. The Government’s revised housing methodology has more than doubled Surrey Heath’s annual housing requirement. I understand why we need to build: young people want to live near their families, and businesses need workers who can afford to live locally. I am not opposed to development at all in principle, but I am concerned by the lack of matching ambition for the infrastructure on which those homes will depend. The ongoing development at Mindenhurst, an extension of the village of Deepcut, is a case in point.
Based on the old Army barracks, Mindenhurst is a development of 1,200 properties, with a new school, pubs, sports facilities, a refurbished church, and local shops and amenities. It is genuinely an example of development done well. There is much to commend in its design and the quality of its implementation, but it has invariably had a very significant impact on the transport infrastructure beyond the confines of its own site, adding significant additional traffic to an already challenged and congested road network. There are proposals for another 950 houses in nearby Normandy, which will compound those impacts.
At the moment, these schemes are assessed separately in planning terms, but the residents and future residents use the same roads and junctions. Section 106 agreements and community infrastructure levy money from developers have an important part to play in upgrading transport infrastructure, but the money knocks off only the roughest edges of the impact that a single development will have. It is a sticking plaster for an infrastructural patient that increasingly requires major surgery.
Even if we added together every section 106 agreement and every pound of CIL money, it still could not address decades of under-investment in transport infrastructure. That requires serious public investment and strategic planning at both regional and national levels. That is also why the Government must be careful when implementing their new housing requirements, because in many places our infrastructure is already years, if not decades, behind where it needs to be now. Yet we are planning substantial new development, including in areas with limited public transport where many additional journeys will inevitably be made by car. That will create significant pressures. I worry about what that means for public confidence in development itself. Residents see another planning application and ask a simple question: how will the roads, schools and buses cope? Even those who recognise the need for new homes can become frustrated when the supporting infrastructure always seems to be promised for tomorrow rather than delivered today. I hear that repeatedly in Surrey Heath, and I suspect that many Members across the House hear the same.
Buses and housing growth must be planned together. We need to be more ambitious and co-ordinated in planning for growth. At a time when Surrey is undergoing local government reorganisation, we lack both a local plan and the broader spatial strategy that opens our communities up to speculative development. West Surrey council will begin operating next April. That creates an opportunity to plan across a wider area. However, it will inherit a significant debt and cannot reasonably be expected to shoulder the investment burden alone.
My second request is therefore for the Minister to work with the incoming council, National Highways, rail and bus operators, and schools to develop a shared infrastructure delivery plan. Above all, residents deserve clarity. They should be able to see who is responsible, where the funding will come from and when improvements may be delivered. Where strategic infrastructure lies beyond the means of local authorities, there must be a meaningful role for central Government in funding and helping to co-ordinate it.
Turning to Frimley Park hospital—an issue I have raised in the Chamber before, not always with the utmost of success—I strongly support a new modern hospital to replace buildings affected by reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete. However, I have serious reservations about the hospital trust’s preferred site at Frimley Fuel Allotments, particularly about access for patients, staff and ambulances. That concern is shared by local residents, the South East Coast ambulance service, the blood transfusion service and even clinicians at the hospital itself.
The surrounding roads already serve six schools, and residents and school leaders have jointly raised concerns about the proposal. The area is constrained by single-lane bridges, difficult access routes and limited public transport. When we add ambulance movements, shift changes, out-patient appointments and years of construction traffic, it is entirely reasonable to ask whether the local road network can cope. Before a final decision is made on the site selection, we need clear and convincing evidence that access can be maintained safely and reliably, particularly at the busiest times of day when pupils are in schools.
Last year, health officials advised me that the necessary transport works had not been either fully costed or budgeted for and might in fact end up depending on the new hospital programme’s contingency fund to receive the funding they need. I find that deeply troubling, because we know what contingency funds are for: unforeseen consequences that happen during the building process, not things that can be entirely foreseen at the start of it. Surely the cost and the practicality of getting people to a hospital are fundamental considerations in deciding where to build it.
My third request to the Minister, which I recognise may stray beyond his brief in the Department for Transport, is to work with health colleagues to secure a fully costed and funded hospital access plan before any planning permission is submitted or, potentially, questioned. That must cover ambulance access, public transport, parking, the effects on schools and residential roads, and construction traffic.
I also want to know what happens if satisfactory access cannot be delivered. In that case, the proposed location of the hospital must surely be reconsidered. The trust’s public engagement exercise for the new hospital recently closed, leaving many residents with the impression that the most important question of all—the hospital’s location—had effectively been decided before they were even consulted. I do not think we should end up in that position.
In Whitehall, the issues I have raised today—a motorway junction, railway timetables, buses, new housing and a hospital—may look like separate matters, but for people in Surrey Heath they are part of the same working week and the same struggle to get around. The Government want more homes and a more productive economy, and so do I, but we need to get much better at co-ordinating the investment that makes both possible.
I hope the Minister will respond to my three requests: an urgent strategic review of junction 3 and the A322 corridor with National Highways fully involved, a shared infrastructure delivery plan for West Surrey backed by proper Government funding and Government co-ordination, and a fully costed and funded hospital access plan before any planning application. For each, I would welcome a clear indication of who will take responsibility, what happens next and where we can expect progress.
As I said right at the start, Surrey Heath looks well connected on a map. My constituents ought to be able to feel that connection when they leave their front doors in the morning and when they return at the end of a hard working day.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Justin Madders)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Dr Pinkerton) on securing this debate on this packed Friday afternoon here in the Chamber. [Laughter.] I do not think the attendance is any reflection on the passion and dedication that he has shown to this particular issue. He has been a remarkably consistent campaigner on these issues in his constituency since election.
The hon. Gentleman raised a number of issues, the first of which was the A322/M3 junction 3. As he rightly pointed out, our strategic road network is one of our most vital pieces of infrastructure. Our motorways and major A roads form the backbone of connectivity across England. They link our towns and cities, ports and airports and are relied on by millions of people and businesses every day. He spoke very clearly about the frustration that some of his constituents feel about congestion.
I note the hon. Gentleman’s commitment to trying to resolve this issue. Not only has he secured this debate, but he has engaged more widely with National Highways and Government on this matter. He is clearly a very strong advocate for his constituents, businesses and local road users—indeed, he noted the fact that many of the local road users may not be his constituents.
In March 2026, this Government published the third road investment strategy, which produced £27 billion in funding to improve the strategic road network, including almost £25 billion to operate, maintain, renew and enhance it, alongside a set of new national programmes focused on safety, the environment, congestion and growth. As part of that, National Highways is considering M3 junction 3 and the link with the A322 through the small schemes national programme, with, he will be pleased to hear, a focus on addressing congestion.
I will not raise expectations by committing to a timetable today, but I have been assured that the scheme is being considered alongside a number of others and that work progresses on it. As that work continues, National Highways will engage with local stakeholders, including the hon. Gentleman, to fully understand the issue and consider potential mitigations. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be able to engage with that process.
The hon. Gentleman also raised the question of speeding on local roads. As he will know, local speed limits are set by local traffic authorities, which are best placed to understand the needs of their communities and road networks. The Department provides guidance through the setting local speed limits framework to support authorities in making evidence-based decisions that reflect local circumstances.
The Government are committed to improving road safety and support local authorities in taking appropriate action where there are concerns about road risk. Decisions on speed limits and wider road safety interventions should be based on local evidence and the characteristics of the road. The Department is currently updating the guidance on setting local speed limits following the publication of the road safety strategy. This work will continue to support local authorities in making informed and evidence-led speed management decisions.
Turning to railways, we are spending over £10 billion over the next four years to improve the network, from upgrading the trans-Pennine route to progressing the next stage of East West Rail, delivering high-impact improvements for communities and passengers. The Railways Bill will create Great British Railways—a new publicly owned company that will be responsible for managing most of the tracks and trains used by customers every day. The Bill places passengers back at the heart of the railway. It provides the framework to ensure a robust, high-quality offer for passengers to instil confidence in our railways and attract more people to use them, with a powerful passenger watchdog established by the Bill to advocate for passengers at every turn.
GBR will take responsibility for the day-to-day operational running of the railways, from delivering services to setting timetables, managing access to the network and operating, maintaining and renewing infrastructure. This simplified railway will encourage more rail freight, with two statutory duties included in the Bill to ensure support for this, helping to reduce congestion on our roads and making rail a greener, more attractive choice. GBR will also support local growth, create jobs and improve connectivity.
The hon. Member mentioned the issue of connectivity for his constituents and the fact that there is currently no direct route from Camberley to London Waterloo via the south west main line. I understand that most passengers must therefore change at Ash Vale or Ascot. We absolutely recognise the strength of local campaigning to restore that connection. Surrey county council’s 2016 Camberley rail assessment examined two options for providing direct services from the Frimley line to Waterloo, and both envisaged two trains an hour calling at Brookwood and Woking before running fast to Waterloo, cutting journeys towards London by almost 20 minutes.
However, I have to be candid with the hon. Gentleman about the constraints we face. Reinstating this line would be extremely costly, and the present timetable and infrastructure cannot reliably accommodate two additional trains an hour into Waterloo. Replacing existing mainline services with Camberley services would reduce provision elsewhere, increase pressure on alternatives and, of course, be extremely expensive.
There is, however, some practical progress, although I know it will not be all that the hon. Member wants to hear. An accessibility scheme at Ash Vale is now funded for delivery, and, although that station falls outside his constituency, new lifts will make interchange easier for residents of Camberley in Surrey Heath and strengthen Ash Vale’s role as a local transport hub.
I also understand that South Western Railway is developing a refreshed timetable to improve reliability and resilience and make better use of the new Arterio fleet, which reflects how passengers travel today. Its priority will be a dependable service, while taking account of customer demand, higher-capacity trains and changes to the network.
I will move on to the issue of Frimley Park hospital. I am aware that the hon. Member has spoken about this issue a number of times, and he is right to raise these important questions on behalf of his constituents. I agree with him that as these plans are brought forward, it is important to ensure that both local people and staff are able to access the new facilities easily. He will know that these access questions will be considered through the planning, consultation and application process run by the council. I will take the concerns he has raised over funding for the access issues he has mentioned back to the Department of Health and Social Care to see if we can get some clarity on that, but he will know that planning applications are best dealt with by the local authority.
On the question of the local authority, the hon. Member will be cognisant of the fact that Surrey will be moving to two new unitary authorities from April next year, which we firmly believe will bring greater opportunity to bring transport and economic planning closer together in the holistic and sensible way that the hon. Member would like. The Government are also working with local partners towards establishing a strategic authority for Surrey, which should enhance that even further. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will work with local authorities through that process to support the benefits of devolution, and we will work with him and local stakeholders to ensure that his concerns are raised.
Finally, the hon. Gentleman raised bus services, which are an important part of the transport network. I think that the new Prime Minister’s commitment to buses is well documented and evidenced from his early actions. The Bus Services Act 2025 also gives greater freedom to local authorities in how they deliver bus services, making it easier for them to actually consider bus franchising. The Department can also provide significant grant funding to the local authority area for Surrey county council of £33 million in the years 2026 to 2029. We are absolutely clear that an integrated and reliable bus service is a hugely important part of transport infrastructure.
I will conclude by thanking the hon. Gentleman for bringing forward this debate and for his continued advocacy on behalf of his constituency.
Question put and agreed to.
Written Corrections
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Ministerial Correction
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Health and Social Care
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Karin Smyth
We are also looking to support general practice in better identifying and recording which of their patients are unpaid carers, to help ensure that those carers can get the support they need in the community. NHS England recently published guidance to support that, and work is ongoing to ensure more consistent coding of unpaid carers by general practitioners.
––[Official Report, Health Public Bill Committee, 9 July 2026; c. 608.]
Written correction submitted by the Minister for Secondary Care, the hon. Member for Bristol South (Karin Smyth):
Karin Smyth
We are also looking to support general practice in better identifying and recording which of their patients are unpaid carers, to help ensure that those carers can get the support they need in the community. NHS England published guidance on supporting carers in general practice in 2019. A refreshed version has been developed with sector partners and will be published in due course. Work is ongoing to ensure more consistent coding of unpaid carers by general practitioners.
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Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism: October 2026 Update
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The Financial Secretary to the Treasury and Paymaster General (James Murray)
The Government are introducing a carbon border adjustment mechanism from 1 January 2027. It will ensure that highly traded, carbon-intensive goods imported into the UK face a carbon price comparable to the price that would be paid were the goods produced in the UK.
Following Royal Assent of the Finance Act 2026, which provides the legislative framework for the UK CBAM, the Government laid the Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism (Calculation of CBAM Rate and Determination of Carbon Price Relief) Regulations 2026 (SI 2026-809) and the Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism (Emissions and Verification) Regulations 2026 (SI 2026-995). The regulations set out the rules for technical components of the policy.
Today, the Government are publishing information on two key components used to calculate liabilities for CBAM: (i) the CBAM rate and (ii) default emissions values. This will help importers, businesses and international partners understand and prepare for their future CBAM liabilities.
We are today publishing illustrative CBAM rates for the first quarter of 2027, for each sector, as well as a worked example—all based on existing legislation. This is illustrative guidance only and is based on preliminary data. It will give businesses an initial indication of potential CBAM costs. It does not generate a tax liability. The official rates for the first quarter of 2027 will be published before the end of the calendar year. Following this, the official rates will be set and published on gov.uk by the Government at the beginning of each quarter.
We have also published default emissions values. These are the default emissions values that will apply to CBAM from January 2027. Default emissions values—expressed in tonnes of CO2e per good—provide UK importers of CBAM goods with a Government-defined default for the emissions in their imported CBAM goods, and can be used where the actual emissions cannot be determined by the UK importer. They are vital to ensure liable persons can comply with the UK CBAM, even where actual reported emissions data is not available. The Government guiding principle in setting default values is to ensure that there is no advantage to liable persons in using default values rather than determining the actual embodied emissions of imported CBAM goods, as set out in schedule 17, part 4, to the Finance Act 2026.
As confirmed in a statement to Parliament in July, the UK CBAM will use single product-level default values, calculated on a trade-weighted average basis. Data from the EU is excluded. This helps to ensure the values better reflect the emissions embodied in goods for which the default values are most likely to be used, as well as recognising the commitment expressed by the UK and EU to link their emissions trading schemes which will result in EU-origin goods being exempt from UK CBAM.
A markup on default values helps to balance supporting the objectives of the CBAM and facilitating a transition to actual emissions reporting. On that basis, a markup of 10% has been applied in all sectors, except fertiliser where no markup is applied.
The default values published today will be in place for 2027 and 2028. The Government also commit today to introducing country-specific default values from 2029. This is in line with the Government previous commitment to move to an alternative approach when feasible. The appropriate level of markup will also be reviewed at this time.
Further information is available at: https://www.gov.uk/money/carbon-border-adjustment-mechanism.
HMRC will continue to publish guidance and engage with businesses ahead of the UK CBAM’s introduction on 1 January 2027.
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Newspaper Mergers
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The Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lisa Nandy)
I wish to update the House on the sale of Telegraph Media Group Holdings.
On 14 April 2026, I gave my consent to RB Investco Ltd to derogate from the Public Interest Merger Reference (Telegraph Media Group Limited) (Pre-emptive Action) Order 2024 to sell its rights—under a “call option”—to purchase the entire issued share capital of TMGH to Axel Springer SE. On 17 April, as required by my derogation consent, I received written confirmation from the parties that this transaction had taken place.
As the proposed merger between the Telegraph Media Group Ltd, TMGH and RB Investco described in the public interest intervention issued by the previous Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport on 26 January 2024 is no longer in progress or in contemplation, I will not be referring this matter to a more in-depth “phase 2” investigation by the Competition and Markets Authority. As a result, the January 2024 PIIN and the Public Interest Merger Reference (Telegraph Media Group Limited) (Pre-emptive Action) Order 2024 have ceased to be in force.
As part of the phase 1 investigation into the proposed merger involving RB Investco, reports from Ofcom and the CMA were received in March 2024; the Ofcom reports advised on the public interest considerations and the CMA reports advised on my predecessor’s jurisdiction to investigate. As required by the Enterprise Act 2002, these reports have now been published on gov.uk. Redactions in these reports follow the legal framework set out in the Enterprise Act 2002 which requires that I must have regard to sensitive, commercial or private information.
The proposed merger between TMGH and the Daily Mail and General Trust plc is also no longer in prospect and therefore I will also not be referring this matter to a “phase 2” investigation. As a result, the 2026 public interest intervention notice and the Public Interest Merger Reference (Telegraph Media Group Holdings Limited) (Pre-emptive Action) Order 2026 have also ceased to be in force. Short reports by Ofcom and the CMA, which confirm that the transaction is no longer in progress or in contemplation, have now been published on gov.uk.
The decisions and steps outlined above mean that all regulatory interventions under the Enterprise Act in relation to TMGH are now closed. With its new owners, Axel Springer, taking over, this marks an end to this long period of uncertainty for the Telegraph newspaper and its staff.
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Covid-19 Inquiry Module 4 Report: Government Response
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The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Yvette Cooper)
On Thursday 16 April 2026, the Covid-19 Inquiry published its fourth report, which focused on the role of vaccines and therapeutics throughout the pandemic and put forward five recommendations for the Government to consider. Today, the Government published their response and set out the actions we are taking to address them.
Our thoughts remain with all those affected by the pandemic. We recognise the impact that these experiences have had on individuals and families, and the importance of ensuring that their experiences are heard and reflected in the lessons we learn from the inquiry. I also want to recognise all those who served the public with dedication, compassion and courage in the most challenging of conditions.
Baroness Hallett’s module 4 report recognises the remarkable success of the vaccines and therapeutics programmes. Effective vaccines were developed, authorised and deployed at exceptional speed, while still going through the robust clinical trial and safety process necessary for such interventions. Therapeutics were identified quickly to treat those who became seriously ill. The report sets out how vaccines protected many people against the most serious effects of covid-19, saved lives, reduced pressure on healthcare systems and helped to ease the wider social and economic effects of the pandemic.
The report also highlights the factors that made this possible. This includes the UK’s world-leading position in biomedical sciences, the dedication of doctors, scientists and researchers supported by the UK’s academic institutions and research funders, the skills of those managing the programmes, and the staff and volunteers keeping the vaccination centres running. I also want to thank the public for coming forward to be vaccinated to protect those around them.
The Government are also grateful to Baroness Hallet and the Covid-19 Inquiry team for identifying important lessons for the future in relation to planning and responding to future pandemics. This publication sets out our response to the module 4 report and recommendations.
We recognise there is more to do, and we are continuing to learn from the inquiry’s findings and address the issues identified. We must ensure that future vaccination and therapeutics programmes earn people’s trust, are accessible to everyone who needs them and are guided by the best available evidence, as these programmes were. We must continue and build on our work with communities to understand and address the barriers that influence vaccine uptake.
The inquiry notes that safety monitoring must continue to evolve and proposes reform of the vaccine damage payment scheme to ensure it is fair to those seriously harmed or bereaved following vaccination, and recognises the trauma and distress caused to families facing long waits for the processing of their claims. We take these concerns very seriously and will look further at what needs to be done to improve the scheme.
We must maintain investment in research, manufacturing capability, surveillance systems and health data infrastructure, forging closer relationships with key life science partners to support improvements.
Our focus is on practical action. There are four areas we need to address for vaccine uptake: clearer NHS organisation, more flexible services, better public information and joined-up digital records. We are also taking forward reforms to improve pandemic preparedness, health resilience and the UK’s life sciences capability. Our recently published pandemic preparedness strategy aims to enhance our approach to future health emergencies and developing the underlying capabilities needed to respond rapidly.
Investment in research, surveillance and health data will further improve our ability to respond to emerging threats. This work also builds on the ambitions of the “10 Year Health Plan for England” which sets out a long-term vision to make the NHS fit for the future, delivering better, faster care, with a workforce that is more empowered, flexible and fulfilled. It places prevention at the heart of NHS reform in England, including through improved vaccination programmes, greater use of new vaccine technologies, better use of high-quality and connected health data to support prevention and early intervention, and closer collaboration between the NHS, universities and industry.
The findings from module 4 are ultimately about innovation, trust and preparedness. By learning the lessons set out in the report, we can boost our resilience, improve public confidence and ensure that the UK is better equipped for future health emergencies.
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Building Safety Regulation Part K: Call for Evidence
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The Minister for Homelessness, Democracy, Communities and Faith (Florence Eshalomi)
The Building Safety Regulator will later this month publish a call for evidence on part K of the Building Regulations and approved document K, the statutory guidance on how to comply with the requirements in the regulations. The call for evidence will seek views on gaps, issues and potential improvements across part K and its associated guidance.
The BSR must keep under review the safety of people in or about buildings in relation to risks regarding buildings; and the standard of buildings. It puts residents at the heart of its work and promotes higher standards and culture change in the built environment.
Part K of the building regulations sets requirements to protect building users from falls, collisions and impacts in and around buildings. It covers requirements for features in all buildings, such as stairs, ladders, handrails, ramps, guarding windows, doors, glazing and vehicle barriers. Approved document K provides the statutory guidance on how to comply with these requirements.
This call for evidence seeks views on gaps, issues, or improvements that could be made to part K and its associated guidance. This follows Government commissioned research published in October 2025, which gathered objective, evidence-based information on domestic stair design, including step dimensions, consistency, and handrail provision, which can be found at: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/evidence-to-support-potential-changes-to-approved-document-k-guidance-on-domestic-stairs
I encourage all interested parties to respond to the call for evidence. The evidence received will help inform future consideration of part K and approved document K, including whether any further changes may be justified.
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