Alex Ballinger
Main Page: Alex Ballinger (Labour - Halesowen) Heritage Public Houses Bill
Alex Ballinger Excerpts
Lizzi Collinge
I have not tried that ale. I wonder whether those of us on the correct side of the Pennines would welcome a Yorkshire pint or not—but I am sure it is delicious. Pubs are vital community assets, whether in Yorkshire, Lancashire or Westmorland. British life often happens over a pint and maybe a bag of Scampi Fries or—even better—a packet of Lancashire crisps. My tenuous claim to fame is that Wainwright Beer is named after my great-great uncle Alfred Wainwright, who was a fell walker and writer. He did enjoy a pint at the end of a walk, although I have to say that his mother, who was a strict teetotaller, would be turning in her grave at the idea of her son having a beer named after him.
I have spoken before in this place about the need to have spaces in our community where people can drop by, see a mate, run into people they know or even make new friends. Much as I love the great coffee shops in my constituency like the Salty Bean, or maybe something a bit more traditional like Lewis’s, which has many heritage features, you cannot beat a swift half at the Dispensary at the end of a long week.
It is about not just community—I will come back to that—but conserving important architectural and cultural buildings. The Tivoli Bar in Morecambe, which was named after the Tivoli gardens in Copenhagen, closed a few years ago, but I remember the inside of it being stunning. The Tivoli and the Queen’s Hotel in Morecambe could be fantastic assets to our town and examples of heritage buildings being preserved and put to good use; instead, they lie neglected. The Tivoli is owned by Samuel Smith’s Brewery, and despite Morecambe BID and I trying to get it and other absent landlords to engage on how we get more buildings open and working again, unfortunately we did not get any engagement from the brewery when we wrote to it back in February.
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend is making an important point about pubs that are long left derelict. In my constituency of Halesowen, the Olde Queens Head right in the town centre had been derelict for a while, but it is being repurposed to be a community centre by an excellent community group called Stepping Out, which supports young disabled people to get out and around the town. While that is not a heritage pub, I think that is a fantastic use of a venue that otherwise would go to waste. Does she have such examples from her constituency?
Lizzi Collinge
That is an interesting and important point. I will go on to mention the importance of retaining those additional features when pubs, or any buildings, are renovated. The hon. Gentleman makes an important point there. However, as he knows, proposals to demolish or change the use of pubs already require a planning application, as they are deliberately excluded from relevant permitted development rights. That allows local authorities, through the planning committee, to consider the full impact of the proposals. Local authorities have the power to issue an enforcement notice for a breach of planning control. I appreciate that in the hon. Gentleman’s case, with the Crooked House, that came far too late, and I really do share the despair he must have felt at that happening.
We have talked about the heritage lists. Pubs that are formally designated as listed buildings are afforded additional protection, with listed building consent needed to demolish or undertake any works of alteration or extension that affect the listed building’s character or appearance. Failure to obtain listed building consent is, of course, an offence.
I just want to say that I thoroughly support local authorities’ fully enforcing all planning consents and building regulations. There is a pub in the area where I was a county councillor that was changed into flats where the developer, frankly, had no respect for the planning process or local people and consistently and flagrantly breached the planning consents he had been given. I would support much stronger powers to prevent people like that from being able to develop in the future.
Alex Ballinger
I have a similar planning challenge in my constituency, where a supporting wall that was built above a housing development has collapsed. Residents of the new build development have now spent two years waiting for that wall to be fixed without any access to their properties or action by the developer to rectify the situation. There are real challenges with rogue developers, not just in the Crooked House case, but across the board. Given my hon. Friend’s experience of planning, will she say whether the Government could be doing anything else to challenge these kinds of situations?
Lizzi Collinge
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. His case reminds me of my visit to a block of flats in Arnside just a couple of weeks ago. The balconies have been deemed unsafe and the developer and property management company are both trying to charge residents a huge amount of money because they have not created a proper sinking fund. They are also dragging their feet on everyday maintenance and safety issues. There is more we could do, although we are bringing in great reforms to things like leasehold and other matters. The principle is that if someone is responsible for something, they should take responsibility and fix the mess they have made, so I support my hon. Friend’s point.
Communities can also take measures through the assets of community value scheme, which was introduced by the Government in 2011. Local authorities are responsible for ensuring that the scheme is run in accordance with the legislation.
Rather than adding to the planning regime, it is more important to make sure that we support pubs to thrive through everyday policy. Ask any pub owner and they will talk about rising operating costs, particularly for energy, and changing alcohol consumption habits, which make it harder to make a profit. The Government are taking action on that.
I am a member of the Energy Security and Net Zero Committee, which often speaks about business energy costs. I would like to flag the importance of the clean power 2030 mission to the survival of pubs and other businesses. When we go into pubs, we want them to be nice and warm, which means that they have very high energy costs. The Government are doing important work to decouple the price of electricity from the price of gas, which is set internationally and is damaged by international events.
For pubs specifically, the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026 will ban the use of upwards-only rent review clauses in commercial tenancies. Those clauses have meant that rents can only ever stay the same or rise, regardless of market conditions. Pubs that are signed up to the pubs code already receive that protection, but the ban will extend it to heritage pubs, further increasing support for these important institutions.
I was pleased that the Government announced the 20% business rates discount for pubs, clubs and entertainment venues, which has helped to give them some breathing space. I would point out that there are other businesses very similar to pubs, like the Avanti restaurant I visited in Kirkby Lonsdale, whose owner kindly brought together a group of local businesspeople for me to speak with. They would like to see parity on that tax relief. I encourage pubs to check whether they are eligible for the £61 million community right to buy fund rolled out by the Government, which funds people in deprived areas to take over community assets—something my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Anna Dixon) talked about.
Rather than relying on planning protection, which can be slow, those measures give communities agency over a place and the opportunity to operate those assets successfully. There is also the Pub is The Hub programme, which helps pubs in rural areas like mine to diversify and is backed by £3 million of Government funding.
Community ownership and engagement are really important to the Government. They are strengthening them further through the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act, which will introduce a new community right to buy and give communities real power of ownership. Communities will have the first opportunity to purchase and 12 months to raise funding, which is a significant improvement.
Local communities should determine which spaces and places are most important to them. A growing number of local residents across the country are stepping into the gap and saving heritage assets. There are some brilliant groups like that in Morecambe and Lunesdale. I want to give a specific mention to the Save Our Sun campaign in Dent. Dent is a beautiful village nestled in the Yorkshire Dales national park—I have three planning authorities in my constituency, which is always fun. The Save Our Sun campaign has pulled the community together to save the Sun Inn, and I wish to put on record my thanks to the group. They have done a fantastic job, and I was pleased to hear recently that they have progressed a little further.
Markus Campbell-Savours
I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s intervention. My criticisms of the Bill may go beyond this Bill and into some of the existing provisions.
The success of these protections will ultimately depend not only on the rights that Parliament creates, but on whether communities can realistically exercise those rights. That brings me to a case in my constituency—hon. Members may be relieved to hear that it is the only pub I will mention in my speech. In the village of Ireby, local residents have spent years attempting to secure the future of Emily’s Black Lion, the last remaining pub serving a rural area of around 15,000 hectares with a population of only a few hundred. The importance of the Black Lion cannot be overstated. Public transport has been withdrawn from the village, there are few remaining public amenities, and the pub supports community events, fundraising for local institutions and the neighbouring, community-owned Globe Hall. For many residents, it is the principal social and community hub.
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. I am reflecting on my experience in Halesowen; it is a built-up area rather than a residential area, but unfortunately, we have had real reductions in community spaces through years of Conservative cuts to local government. That means that pubs, as well as libraries and other community spaces, have become increasingly important. Does my hon. Friend agree that that makes the continuation of pubs even more vital than it was in the past?
Markus Campbell-Savours
I agree with my hon. Friend. Sometimes we can underestimate the similarities between rural areas and inner cities, where community spaces are limited.
I followed the campaign of Emily’s Black Lion for a number of years, including during my time as a parliamentary candidate, when I had the opportunity to visit the Black Lion and meet members of the community group. What struck me then, and continues to impress me today, is that this was never simply a campaign to save a pub; it was a campaign to sustain a community. Local residents spoke of ambitions to develop the pub further as a café, drop-in facility and community hub serving local residents throughout the day. That ambition has only become more important as other services have been lost. During the course of the campaign, Ireby also lost its bus service. In a city, losing a pub may mean walking to the next one—although I welcome what my hon. Friend the Member for Halesowen (Alex Ballinger) has just said—but in a village such as Ireby, losing the last pub can mean losing one of the last places where people regularly come together.
When the future of the pub was threatened, local people did exactly what Governments of all colours have encouraged communities to do: they organised. They established a community benefit society, commissioned surveys and valuations, prepared a business plan, achieved the community share standard, launched a community share offer and raised more than £100,000 from around 200 investors, with further pledges available. On a modest estimate, the core volunteers contributed more than 1,300 hours of unpaid work to the project, including more than 800 hours from one individual alone. Think about that for a moment—more than 1,300 volunteer hours from local people who simply wanted to keep their pub alive.
Most importantly, they did all of that in good faith. They pursued the route laid before them through the community ownership fund. They incurred costs, undertook surveys, assembled evidence and met every requirement asked of them, then just as they were preparing to submit what they believed was a completed application, the general election was called. The process was interrupted, and the funding scheme was subsequently closed. The Government have since confirmed that the community ownership fund is closed and there will be no further application rounds. This was devastating for the campaign in Ireby.
Where are we now? I am not here to referee a dispute between the owner and the community group, nor am I here to put a value on the pub—those are matters for negotiation between the parties involved. However, the position in Ireby illustrates a wider policy question. The community group believes a purchase remains achievable with sufficient support. The owner has expressed concerns about the effect of restrictions and uncertainty on the future marketability of the property. The argument advanced by the owner in Ireby is that restrictions intended to support community ownership may, in some circumstances, discourage other purchasers from coming forward—purchasers who may wish to run a pub and secure the future of the asset.
Members may or may not agree with that assessment. My point is that the argument exists. Some may argue that it is irrational, but potential buyers often are not rational. It is an argument that becomes more significant when communities do not have access to the funding required to complete an acquisition. The most effective response is not necessarily fewer protections. It may be better funding, better access to finance and a clearer pathway from community interest to community ownership.
The challenge goes beyond this Bill. Parliament has recently strengthened community acquisition rights through the new community right-to-buy provisions in the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act. Those reforms extend the moratorium period and create stronger opportunities for communities to acquire valued local assets. I welcome the ambition behind those reforms, which are motivated by many of the same objectives that underpin the Bill before us today. However, I am interested in how Ministers see those rights operating in practice where communities face significant difficulties accessing capital.
Matt Turmaine (Watford) (Lab)
It is an honour to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and Solway (Markus Campbell-Savours) in this important debate. Watford and the surrounding area have a fine history of pubs and brewing. Indeed, the town has been associated with the production of beer, sold widely in the town’s hostelries, for many years. Benskins was the pre-eminent brewery in Watford, and Hertfordshire’s biggest brewer until its acquisition by Ind Coope in 1957. There were many tied houses, and many bore the Benskins name well into the 1990s.
In fact, the part of Watford in which I reside has a close association with the Benskins brewery, in terms of housing provision for workers and managers at the brewer’s facilities. For many years, Watford football club, the town’s professional team, were known as the Brewers, and Benskins brewery sponsored the purchase of the club’s Vicarage Road ground, where they have played ever since—earning them the nickname the Brewers. It was subsequently changed to the Hornets, which I suspect had a sting in the tail for the Brewers—perhaps we will never know. The ground was leased to the club at peppercorn rent, and in 2001, the club purchased the ground from Punch Taverns, which had inherited the freehold as part of its acquisition of the Allied Domecq estate.
In 2006, the club also purchased the freehold of the Red Lion pub opposite the ground, which remains a favourite watering hole for home fans, with away fans being accommodated at the nearby rebranded Oddfellows—formerly the Oddfellows Arms. In the interests of research and the pursuit of knowledge, I have attended both of those venues and can report that they are convivial, if tightly packed, venues that do the town proud as examples of heritage pubs.
Other pubs further away accommodate a mixed fanbase, which generally works well. Although the M1 derby, with local rivals that cannot be named in here—my hon. Friend the Member for Luton South and South Bedfordshire (Rachel Hopkins) is no longer present, or else she could testify to this—can sometimes present a challenge.
Returning to Benskins, the old offices, which are a three-story redbrick house in the Georgian neoclassical style, fronted the brewery itself. It was the former home of the Dyson family, built around 1775, with extensions added to the side in 1807. The house was bought in 1867 by Joseph Benskin, and the whole site continued to operate as their brewery until it was acquired by Ind Coope in 1957. Brewing continued in Watford until 1972, with the iconic chimney being demolished in 1977—the year of our late Queen’s jubilee. As a child, I spent that day on a balcony in the borders, ironically, although not deliberately, being sick—something that any novice attendee of our national heritage public houses may too have experienced.
In the 1970s, the football club’s matchday programme would always contain an advert for Ind Coope, listing all its pubs and giving the names of mine host as “Mr and Mrs” with their initials and a surname. That is how it was done in those days. In the end, the grade II listed property became the Watford Museum, opened by the Watford-born actor Terry Scott. Thanks to Government funding, the museum is presently being moved to a newer, more modern venue.
One of Watford’s multitudinous pubs was eventually named after Joseph Benskin. It was on the corner of Market Street, and these days it is a Gail’s. Less modern, however, is a small window set in the wall dating back around 300 years. It is documented as a surviving part of the original building. Many of the old pubs remain, while some more recently constructed ones have vanished. Watford’s council housing estates generally came equipped with at least one pub. Woodside had the Hammer in Hand and the Hare near Leveret Close, which is now a care home. Meriden still has the Badger. Holywell had the Highwayman, which is now Turpin Court, and in Courtlands Drive was the Beaver, which sadly has not been reintroduced there. I must relay an anecdote where I met the former Member for West Bromwich East in one of these heritage pubs. I was much impressed by the speed with which he was able to consume a pint of the dark brew of the Irish isle while within the Badger.
Checking through “The Book of Watford”, compiled and edited by local historian Bob Nunn in 1987, it lists 90 Watford pubs that existed since 1900. Many are now long gone. He dedicates much of the tome to them. The distinctive Oxhey village has retained two pubs in the neat rows of Victorian terraces: the Rifle Volunteer and the nearby Villiers Arms. Sadly, the Haydon Arms—a bit more out of the way—was lost, and the Prince of Wales closed in 1955.
Watford’s pubs are and remain social hubs. The Horns at the top of the town is famous for and still offers live music. I have enjoyed the music there many times, and it would be inappropriate of me not to mention a former Broadcasting, Entertainment, Communications and Theatre union mentor, Paul Evans, who I was lucky enough to witness playing at the venue with his band while I nervously awaited a very different impending recall for the birth of my second child.
There are many countryside pubs within a short drive or walk of Watford, and in some instances a bus service remains to get people there and back. The Clarendon Arms at Chandlers Cross was a regular pit stop for walkers, and the Cart and Horses at Commonwood, Bucks Hill, was the terminus for many years of London Country’s double deckers on the 318A route, where the conductor would see the driver reverse back to the stop to lay over before the return journey to Watford.
I can testify to the delights of the Clarendon Arms. My partner and I, freshly arrived in Hertfordshire’s finest town of Watford, strode our way through Whippendell wood to said hostelry and partook of its thirst-quenching delights. Perhaps less impressively, the return path was far from direct, and the sun was bidding a provocative farewell as we made our way through the snagging snicker of the woods vaguely in the right direction. It was more reminiscent of “An American Werewolf in London” than “The Railway Children”.
The Sir Robert Peel was a popular pub in Watford in its own right up until 2006. CAMRA advises that the explanation for its name was its former use as the town’s police station. The Wheatsheaf does not appear to have been a particularly fortunate name for pubs locally. The one in Watford at Bushey Arches became a car showroom. Sarratt, a few miles out of town and still with a bus service, saw its pub of the same name close. There was also a Wheatsheaf in Bovingdon High Street, which has closed.
It is important in this debate to namecheck a couple of my constituency’s hostelries. To that end, I mention the One Crown in Watford, which is believed to be one of the oldest pubs. In 1756, Jeremiah Friend was listed as the landlord of the venue, which suggests that is a fact. It is clearly challenging to be able to identify all these examples. I also mention the Swan, which apparently had 17th-century heritage, too. There is also the O’Neill’s, as it is now known, but to most of us it is the Flag.
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend mentions that a pub has changed its name from a fantastic previous name to O’Neill’s. Is he concerned not just about the heritage of our pubs but the heritage of the names of pubs? Those fantastic names that have lasted for years and years and years should continue; pubs should not be rebranded with random generic chain names.
Matt Turmaine
Yes, the legacy of pub names should be celebrated. It is sometimes disappointing to see the generic nature of venues in high streets. We can but hope that the interiors of those pubs continue to be sites of convivial and lively memory that can live on beyond the names.
I mentioned that O’Neill’s was formerly known as the Flag. It was originally a hotel to service Watford Junction station, and I must confess to have occasionally made use of its facilities, including once when it provided much-needed sustenance to a delegation from a previous abode of mine in Hammersmith and Fulham. They, too, were delighted to avail themselves of its excellent food and drink.
The Railway Arms in Bushey, which has close associations with the railway and those commuters who use it, once provided me with an opportunity to be sounded out about electoral issues in the run-up to the 2015 general election, in which I stood. In that election, I was able to relegate the Liberal Democrat mayor of Watford to third place, as Labour began its ascent back up the polls—a task that I fully intend to better at the next election.
The Moon Under Water on the high street is a peculiarity as a heritage public house in that it was opened in 1995, but it has an awareness of its history that far transcends expectations. Many informative items decorate the pub, revealing the history of the town. The pub is run by Wetherspoons and is named after George Orwell’s fantasy pub. Wetherspoons’ website reveals:
“In 1536, Richard Morison, the future owner of Cassiobury estate returned to England from his studies in Italy to work for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Thomas Cromwell.”
Richard was granted the manor of Cashio in 1546. His wife, Bridget, founded the Bedford almshouses in 1580 to house poor women from Watford, Langley and Chenies. They remain standing to this day, and I was able to enjoy hospitality at them on one of my visits there.
Heritage comes in many forms, and it would be negligent not to mention the town’s famous nightclub, Pryzm, which closed a couple of years ago. The club has known many forms, and indeed names, and rather like which Doctor Who one grew up with, it dates residents of the town to an era—for me, it was Paradise Lost. Many patrons would emerge from that nightclub in the early hours of the morning, blinking in the artificial lamppost light, seeking either a kebab or a cab—an act that has now sadly past into history.
I have also been able to attend a beer festival in St John’s church, an unlikely but enjoyable setting for the consumption of fine ales.
As other hon. Members have said, it is important to remember that even as we pass on, heritage is still being built today. The Mad Squirrel, where I was delighted to take a delegation of SPD members from Watford’s twin town of Mainz in Germany, was a particular favourite.
I will close by reflecting that last Saturday I was in the Estcourt Tavern in Watford, which is now run by Steven and Mel, formerly of the Southern Cross, to drown my sorrows following Watford football club’s lamentable defeat. One of the town’s long-established pubs, the refurbishment has been amazing, and I wish them every success with it. That venue was the site of another political interrogation, when I was quizzed about which Miliband I had supported in the Labour party leadership election of 2010—and so began a trajectory that delivered my election to this place.
Alex Ballinger
Will my hon. Friend give the House an answer as to which Miliband he supported?
Matt Turmaine
Of course, I would be happy to give an answer: the right one.
Figures I have seen show that in 2015 there were over 55,000 pubs, but by 2024 there were a staggering 10,000 fewer, which is sobering thought and a reminder to us all that pub closures did not begin in 2024. Pubs are the focal point for a community—public houses serving the public. I am pleased that the Government have recognised their loss over many years and that this needs to be tackled and addressed.
Sarah Hall (Warrington South) (Lab/Co-op)
When people think about pubs, they often think first about beer, but while great beer certainly matters, pubs have always been about much more than what is poured into a glass. They are meeting places, employers, community hubs, cultural institutions and, in many cases, living pieces of local history, as we have heard a lot about today.
In Warrington South, we are fortunate to have a rich pub culture, a growing independent hospitality sector and local breweries that continue a tradition stretching back generations. From Stockton Heath and Grappenhall to Latchford and Appleton, and across the wider constituency, pubs remain places where friendships are formed, local fundraising takes place, sports teams celebrate victories, families gather for meals, and communities come together in times of joy and challenge. Because pubs matter, we have a responsibility to approach legislation affecting them with care, precision and a proper understanding of the law as it already exists.
The question before the House is not whether historic pubs deserve protection—of course they do. The question is whether the measures proposed in this Bill are necessary, proportionate and effective alongside the protections already available, and whether they will genuinely help pubs to survive as living businesses, rather than simply preserving bricks and mortar. That distinction is particularly important in Warrington South. Warrington has a remarkable brewing history. For generations, Greenall’s was one of the names most closely associated with our town, connecting brewing with local employment, industry and the network of public houses through which beer reached our communities. Many local people also remember the famous Tetley Walker brewery on Dallam Lane.
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend talks about the local network connecting different breweries. Warrington might be very similar to the Black Country, in that canals were historically used to pass barrels of ale from brewery to pub. Does she have any famous canals in her constituency, and are they still used in that way?
Sarah Hall
We do indeed. We have the famous Sankey Canal, which is one of the oldest, if not the first, canal in this country. We also have the Manchester ship canal, which I am sure everybody here has heard about.
For decades, the Greenall’s brewery helped to define the character and economy of Warrington. The distinctive smell of hops became part of daily life for generations of residents, and the brewery was an important local employer. Although that era has passed, brewing remains very much alive in our town. One example is the 4T’s brewery, based in Latchford and founded by John Wilkinson, who previously worked at the historic Tetley Walker brewery. Having started in a garage, 4T’s has developed from a small operation into an established independent brewery producing cask, craft, bottled and canned beers, and it is exceptional.
That continuity matters. It demonstrates that heritage need not be frozen in time; it can be carried forward by people who possess the skills, knowledge and determination to adapt an old industry to new circumstances. Local breweries do far more than produce beer; they support employment, buy goods and services, supply pubs, attract visitors and strengthen Warrington’s identity. When residents choose a locally brewed pint, more of that spending remains within the local economy.
Independent breweries and pubs form part of a wider network of businesses that support one another. Across Warrington, CAMRA recognises venues that champion quality beer and community spirit, including the Lower Angel, the Tavern and the Hop Emporium, among many others. Such establishments remind us that a pub’s value is not measured solely by the age of the building. It is also measured by the landlord who knows the regulars by name, the community group that meets in the back room, the local team that celebrate a victory there, and the family that has gathered around the same table for decades. A historic building may retain architectural interest after it ceases to operate as a pub, but a historic pub that continues to serve its community combines architectural, cultural and social value, and our policy should recognise all three.
I am concerned that debates about heritage can sometimes become too focused on labels: we discuss whether a building is listed, whether it appears on a register or whether it meets a particular statutory definition. Those questions matter, because legal protection often depends on them, but a community’s attachment to a pub does not begin on the day a local authority adds it to a list, and neither does a pub’s cultural significance disappear because it falls just outside a definition drawn up in Westminster.
Warrington has some wonderful examples of historic public houses. The Barley Mow, whose origins date back to 1561, is a remarkable timber-framed building where the ancient beams and historic panelling connect us with earlier generations. The Ferry Tavern, which was first licensed in 1762, occupies a distinctive setting between the Mersey and the Sankey and alongside the trans-Pennine trail. There are many, many more—too many to mention.
These are not simply commercial premises; they are part of the character and story of our area. Once a historic building has been demolished, no subsequent register can bring it back. That is why early identification, good information, effective enforcement and timely decisions are so important. However, the lesson should not simply be that every pub requires another statutory designation. Local authorities need the knowledge, resources and confidence to use the powers that they already possess, and communities need meaningful opportunities to influence decisions before it is too late.
Pubs are already protected by the planning system. Proposals to demolish a pub or change its use require a planning application, because pubs are deliberately excluded from the relevant permitted development rights, so an owner cannot simply assume that a pub can be demolished or converted without scrutiny. The local planning authority has an opportunity to consider the proposal, assess its impact and apply the relevant planning policy.
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend continues to make an excellent speech. On the subject of planning systems and frameworks, does she share my concern that, despite the good intentions of this Bill, the additional layers of bureaucracy that may be put on the owners of a pub, planning authorities and others might cause more friction in the system than is intended?
Sarah Hall
I absolutely agree. I think we need to focus on ensuring that the current legislation is more robust and is enforced, rather than adding extra layers, as my hon. Friend says.
The current policies already act as an important safeguard, so creating another legal requirement will not necessarily produce a better practical outcome. Local planning authorities already have powers to issue enforcement notices where there has been a breach of planning control, and non-compliance with an enforcement notice can result in an unlimited fine on conviction. That is a substantial sanction. The challenge is ensuring that breaches are identified, investigated and dealt with promptly. There is an important difference between a lack of legal power and a failure to use existing powers effectively.
Local planning authorities can also create local lists of buildings of historic architectural interest, including heritage pubs. These non-designated heritage assets receive consideration through the national planning policy framework when relevant planning decisions are made. That matters, because heritage is not restricted to nationally famous landmarks. A pub can be central to the identity of a neighbourhood without meeting the criteria for a statutory listing.
There is also a building preservation notice; where a local planning authority considers that a building of special architectural or historic interest is at risk of demolition or harmful alteration, it can serve a notice and apply for the building to be considered for listing. These are already meaningful tools. The practical question for Warrington South is whether our council has the information and the resources it needs to identify vulnerable historic pubs and make effective use of those powers.
The importance of a pub is often best understood by the people who use it. The assets of community value scheme, introduced through the Localism Act 2011, allows communities in England to nominate buildings or land that further the social wellbeing or social interests of their community. The local authority considers whether the nomination meets the statutory definition and decides whether the asset should be listed, giving residents a formal way of saying, “This place matters to us, and its importance should be recognised.”
Residents are often best placed to explain why a particular pub matters. It might provide a meeting place for older people or host organisations and all the other great things that have been identified before, but an asset of community value listing is not an absolute guarantee that a building will remain open as a pub. The existing scheme provides a process for community involvement when a listed asset is put up for sale, but it does not generally compel the owner to sell to a community group or to accept its offer. That distinction matters.
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend raises a good point about involving the community in assets of community value. We are talking about heritage pubs. Pubs absolutely have a value to the community, but if the community decides that it wants to use them for a different purpose, is the asset of community value not a better mechanism for doing that than the Bill we are debating?
Sarah Hall
Absolutely, and I will move on to the community right to buy, which is incredibly significant here. The English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026 is intended to give communities the first opportunity to purchase an asset of community value. As a Labour and Co-operative MP, I am incredibly passionate about giving power to communities to run things, as they know how they would serve and fit in their areas. That is incredibly powerful, and I would love to see more of that.
Alex Ballinger
May I join my hon. Friend in congratulating the organisers of that festival on the charitable contributions they have made? I would also like to congratulate the organisers of the Halesowen beer, cider and gin festival at Halesowen cricket club. They have done fantastic work to bring the community together in Halesowen to enjoy all those different drinks and contribute to the community.
Sarah Hall
I echo those comments. Our event has been supporting incredible charities in our town such as St Rocco’s hospice and the homelessness charity Room at the Inn, as well as many international charitable projects.
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend is talking about the costs of pubs, which are incredibly important. Publicans in my constituency talk about not only energy costs but business rates and other challenges. Does she agree that the steps that the Chancellor is already making to reduce business rates for pubs will help publicans and heritage pubs in particular to continue? Will she support other measures to move business rates from the high street as well as pubs to larger online businesses, as is being proposed?
Sarah Hall
That is incredibly important. Such measures will make a big difference to businesses, and any little bit of help would be fantastic at this time. I speak a lot to publicans in my constituency about the issue.
The fundamental question at the heart of this debate is what exactly we are trying to preserve. If the answer is an architectural asset, the planning and listed buildings systems provide important tools. If the answer is a building with historical significance for its community, local heritage lists and assets of community value provide routes for recognition. If the answer is the opportunity for a community to take ownership of a pub when it is sold, the community right to buy is directly relevant. If the answer is a business that needs to operate on sustainable commercial terms, tenancy rules and wider economic conditions also matter.
The answer is often all those things at once, but different problems may require different solutions. A pub can retain its exterior while losing its historic interior; it can retain its architectural character while ceasing to function as a pub; and it can be purchased by a community group and still struggle to cover its costs. Equally, a pub that is not nationally listed may remain a thriving centre of community life for generations. The challenge is to design legislation that recognises those differences, rather than treating every heritage pub as if it faces identical risks.
The question is not whether heritage matters—it plainly does; it is how Parliament can best protect it. I want to bring this debate back to the people and places of Warrington South. When we speak about the borough’s brewing heritage, we are discussing a history of work, enterprise and community. When we speak about 4T’s Brewery, we are discussing the continuation of brewing traditions and the entrepreneurial spirit that keeps them alive. When we speak about historic pubs, from the Barlow Mow to the Ferry Tavern, we are discussing buildings that connect us to earlier generations. When we speak about Warrington Oktoberfest, we are discussing volunteers, charities and residents coming together to turn community spirit into practical support for others.
Those things deserve attention from Parliament. But the best way to protect them is not necessarily to create the largest possible number of new legal requirements; it is to identify the risks accurately, use existing powers effectively and ensure that any new powers address a genuine gap. It is to support independent brewing and the hospitality businesses that give local products a market and to consider a building’s heritage alongside the economic circumstances that determine whether a business can continue to operate. Warrington has a proud brewing history and its pubs are part of the social and architectural story of our town.
Kevin Bonavia
My hon. Friend makes a really important point: we need places to come together, whether we are drinking alcohol or not. In the old town in Stevenage, we have plenty of pubs. We also have lots of buildings that were pubs but are still meeting places. Conversely, we have buildings that were used for other purposes but are now pubs. For example, we have a snooker club that is now partly a microbrewery with a taproom. That has benefited from the previous Labour Government’s encouragement of microbreweries, and it has a nod to its heritage.
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend is giving an important speech. I was reflecting on the town of Stevenage only being 80 years old. In the Bill, heritage pubs are defined as those that are more than 150 years old. Although that is important—there are many pubs of that age, including in my constituency, and the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) has some fantastic ones in his area—is the Bill not exclusionary of new towns which have that heritage?
Kevin Bonavia
My hon. Friend makes a really important point. The hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire says that the Bill is for pubs that are beyond the age of 150, but the fact is that the implications of wording matter in legislation. I would have framed the Bill in a different way. More importantly, we do not always have to introduce new laws in this place; we should think about how we can better implement the laws that already exist. I will turn to that in the final part of my contribution.
On heritage, and new places that will become future heritage pubs, the Six Hills Taproom in Stevenage’s old town has a nod to its heritage. Its most famous brand of microbrew beer is the Six Hills brand.
Kevin Bonavia
I was there last week. It does samples of all its beers and I tried a few tiny samples, although I made sure not to have too much. I currently like its stout, which I would recommend as my personal favourite. It is all named after the six hills, which anyone who comes into Stevenage will see. They are Roman burial mounds, so it is a nod to Stevenage’s ancient heritage—we are far more than just a new town.
Across our new town, what we do with our pubs is important. We are not supposed to talk about politics in pubs, but I wholly disagree with that. Before I became an MP, and since I have been one, I have been promoting pints with politics in local pubs—“Have a bev with Kev”—and, importantly, local residents have come in. Some people older than me who have never voted have come to say, “Why should I vote? What is this politics thing all about?” In a place like this we might almost belittle that, but we absolutely should not. We must get into our communities, and there is no better way than getting into our pubs. That is why it is so important that we in this place protect and enhance our pubs.
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend is making an important point about engagement with communities inside pubs. I go to some of the more deprived parts of my community and pop in for a pint after some door knocking. The people I talk to are completely disillusioned with politics, but the opportunity for them to engage with their Member of Parliament, in a space that they are comfortable in and among their community, is vital. I celebrate and congratulate my hon. Friend on doing that, and encourage more of my colleagues to do the same.
Kevin Bonavia
I am sure that all Members of the House do our best to get out to wherever our constituents are, and there is no better place than the local pub. Beyond Stevenage, I also represent four villages: Knebworth, Codicote, Datchworth and Aston. In Knebworth we have the Station, which is a pub that was not going to survive. It was built around the station over 100 years ago, and it became an asset of community value when councillors, residents and the parish council came together and were able to buy it. Members are welcome to pop into the Station if they are lucky enough to have a ticket to Oasis, who are playing six concerts at Knebworth Park next summer.
Kevin Bonavia
We could have a whole debate about the reasons for that, outside of today’s Second Reading debate. One of the most important reasons, I think, is that the community needs to be given the ability, awareness and wherewithal to do it in the first place. It is not just about making laws; what really counts is what we do with them. As such, while I am pleased that new legislation is coming in that is going to help protect pubs regardless of what happens to today’s Bill, and while I am pleased that this Government have made such an effort to support existing pub businesses around the country—remember, one in six pubs were lost during the tenure of the last Government—
Alex Ballinger
I was just reflecting on the exchange about assets of community value. I have many people in my constituency who want to support pubs, set up community spaces and support and set up charities, but there seems to be a gap in education—in giving the community the tools to enable them to do that. I know that this topic is slightly adjacent to the Bill we are debating, but because we can also talk about heritage pubs as part of that, does my hon. Friend think that local government has a bigger role to play in providing that education to communities that want to take that step?
Kevin Bonavia
That is a really important point—we have to use all the tools at our disposal. We as individual Members of Parliament cannot do that alone; we need to work with our communities. There is no better example than our local authorities, but beyond that, it was the parish councils in Aston and Knebworth that made possible what I have described. They were the ones who went out and put the letters through letterboxes, and all of that. Really, that is what matters—it is human beings who make our pubs, and that is where I want to end today, Madam Deputy Speaker. This is about making our pubs places for people.
Dr Prinsley
My hon. Friend must have a moment more patience, for I am coming to that.
Pubs have been at the heart of life in Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket for centuries. They are part of our history, our local economy and our communities, and my constituency has no shortage of remarkable stories to tell.
Greene King has brewed in Bury St Edmunds since 1799. Its Level Head beer has made it into the Strangers Bar. I feel that the Chancellor should be offered a pint before the Budget, for if ever there was a speech that required a level head, that is surely it.
But Greene King is not living on its history. Last year, I joined the company as work began on its new £40 million brewery at the Suffolk business park, which will be completed next spring. It will keep brewing in Bury St Edmunds, sustain local employment and make production more sustainable. Now, that is heritage and growth working together.
At the all-party parliamentary beer group dinner to which I referred, Mr Nick Mackenzie, the chief executive of Greene King, was sitting at my table and was given the Community Hero award for the actions that Greene King has taken in the community in Bury St Edmunds. It is a fantastic local business. I mentioned that to our former Prime Minister, who said that he would be content to come and open the brewery when it opens next spring. I said to him, “All we need to do now is organise a parliamentary piss-up in a brewery,” and he said, “What could possibly go wrong?”
Alex Ballinger
What a magnificent story! I just want to reflect on the community value that pubs and breweries can add, on top of their location and heritage. In my constituency, the Hunting Tree pub has recently been taken over by new owners, who are doing a fantastic job at bringing in families through activities in the garden, while raising money for Guide Dogs. Could my hon. Friend talk about other examples in his constituency of where the community has benefited not just by going to the pub, but through the activities of pubs and breweries?
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. Before you get to your feet, Dr Prinsley, I remind you that you are speaking through the Chair. I must not be staring at your back.
Dr Prinsley
Lager, in my time, was regarded as a sort of new-fangled drink that was drunk in other countries. In Yorkshire in those days very few people drank lager.
I also want to talk about the smoking ban—I did say I was going to have a serious section in my speech. One of the reasons why people have stopped going to pubs is because there is no smoking allowed in pubs. Stopping smoking is one of the best things we have done. The Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026, which sets out that people will have to be older and older in order to buy cigarettes is, in my opinion, the single best thing that we have done. That single measure will save more lives than anything else we are likely to do in this Parliament. I applaud that, but I recognise that it has had consequences for pubs, where people would gather to drink beer, smoke and have good cheer.
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point about the health benefit of the cigarette ban in pubs. I, too, welcome the Tobacco and Vapes Act and the measure to increase the age limit periodically so that people who are young today cannot smoke. Do you think that, because there has been such a reduction in number of people who are smoking, especially at a younger age, in due course it may become a benefit for pubs? The drag of no longer being allowed to smoke inside would no longer be a problem because people are not smoking.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
Order. Before Dr Prinsley gets to his feet, I remind Members that there should be no “you” or “yours”, because they are speaking through the Chair.