Mike Wood (Kingswinford and South Staffordshire) (Con)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
It is a pleasure to be the promoter of this Bill, on a subject that not only matters deeply to my constituency, but is dear to my own heart. I know that for many colleagues, escaping Westminster to head back to their constituencies is usually the highlight of the week, so to see hon. Members forgo a Friday in their home patches to be here is deeply encouraging, and I thank all those who have taken the time to attend today.
As we have seen over the past few months, private Members’ Bills can come in all shapes and sizes—some extremely contentious, and others narrow and technical. When I was fortunate enough to come third in the private Member’s Bill ballot earlier this year, I was very briefly more popular than I can remember being in some time. I received all manner of helpful advice; some suggested that I take on grand, sweeping constitutional reform, while others suggested fixing something rather closer to home and entirely uncontentious, like dog grooming standards. I decided, however, that I wanted a Bill that could bring people together, and I think there is little that can bring people together more than the importance of our historic pubs.
As a past chairman of the all-party parliamentary group on beer, I confess that I have spent a little time inside our nation’s public houses over the years, conducting what I can only describe as exhaustive, selfless and entirely public-spirited research, if not a constitutional duty. But while I take my beer seriously, I take the future of our historic pubs even more seriously. Behind the warmth, conviviality and the familiar clinking of glasses lies a sobering reality. Today’s debate is not about party politics, because there is far more that unites us than divides us about this subject. It is about whether this Parliament is willing to step in and stop the wanton destruction of our shared history.
For centuries, the British pub has been the beating heart of our communities. Pubs are the social glue that binds our villages, towns, cities and suburbs together. They are places where friendships are forged, birthdays are toasted, wakes are held and where older, perhaps isolated, residents may have their only regular conversation of the week. Yet all too often the planning system treats these irreplaceable institutions as nothing more than convenient plots of land waiting to be cleared for speculative development.
We cannot pretend that this is an abstract, theoretical debate. We know the brutal reality because we saw it happen before our very eyes in Himley, which I now have the honour of representing in Parliament. Just over three years ago, an unbelievable act of destruction shocked the community, and the wider Black Country and Staffordshire, to its core. On the evening of 5 August 2023, flames engulfed the Crooked House. Built in 1765 as a farmhouse before becoming a pub, it had stood for over 250 years, rather longer than the present Palace of Westminster in which we are having this debate today.
Thanks to intense 19th-century coal-mining subsidence, the building settled at a bonkers 15° tilt—three times the lean of the leaning tower of Pisa. It was world famous as “Britain’s wonkiest pub”. A coin could be rolled uphill across the bar counter. Bottles appeared to defy gravity. First-time visitors would take one step inside and swear that the beer had gone straight to their heads. It was an extraordinary monument to the Black Country’s industrial heritage.
The fire was devastating enough, but what followed was an absolute outrage. Barely 48 hours later, before the ashes were cold and before investigators could properly inspect the scene, heavy diggers rolled on to the site. In a matter of hours, more than two-and-a-half centuries of history were flattened into a pile of crushed rubble without planning permission. The perpetrators thought that they could crush a building, fence off the land and wait for the world to move on, but they underestimated the local community.
More than 40,000 people signed petitions that demanded that the Crooked House be rebuilt. South Staffordshire council moved swiftly to serve a binding enforcement notice, ordering the owners to rebuild it brick by brick. That enforcement notice is currently being appealed. Staffordshire police completed an exhaustive criminal investigation and the file now sits with the Crown Prosecution Service, so the appeal against the enforcement notice cannot be heard until the criminal proceedings have been concluded one way or another.
Alex Ballinger (Halesowen) (Lab)
I thank my constituency neighbour for giving way. I remember the outrage from communities all across the Black Country after the pub was demolished in 2023. I share his outrage and that of the communities he mentioned. I notice that there have been difficulties with the process of getting it rebuilt. Does he have an estimate of when the fantastic heritage asset might be rebuilt and when the community can see the crooked pub again?
Mike Wood
As I said, it all depends on how long the Crown Prosecution Service takes to decide whether there is evidence to proceed. The last update I had was about six weeks ago when it said that it was still working on the file and was unable to provide a timeframe. Of course, the community is impatient, and the longer that this drags on the more cynical and frustrated people will be. While clearly the investigation cannot be rushed, we also cannot have any unnecessary delays. I say today, as I said on day one, that the local community is not going to let that go. The enforcement notice that the hon. Gentleman spoke of is legally binding, and the Crooked House must and will rise again from the ashes.
Yet as we pursue justice through the courts, we must ask ourselves the fundamental question: how on earth did the system allow this to happen in the first place? Fighting drawn-out legal battles after the wrecking ball has done its worst is nowhere near good enough. When an irreplaceable 18th-century landmark is destroyed, no amount of enforcement notices can properly recreate the original historic fabric of a building that has grown organically. We have a duty to fix the law so that no other community is robbed of its heritage in that appalling manner.
That is why I have introduced the Bill, which is backed by the Campaign for Real Ale and its 145,000 members as well as the Countryside Alliance and the “Save the Crooked House” campaign. Every single clause of the Bill is designed to close some of the legal loopholes so blatantly exposed in Himley.
Had the Bill been on the statute book in 2023, the Crooked House may still be standing today. It would have made a difference in four specific and possibly decisive ways. First, the Bill would put an end to secret sales. In 2023, the local community had no idea that Marston’s had put the Crooked House on the market until contracts had already been exchanged. It was sold off to buyers who clearly had no intention of running it as a pub. By the time the community found out and tried to do something about it, it was already too late. Clauses 1 to 4 would place a statutory duty on each local planning authority in England to compile and maintain a register of heritage public houses, covering venues that are at least 150 years old or which possess recognised local heritage significance, including heritage interiors.
Anna Dixon (Shipley) (Lab)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for introducing this interesting bill. My understanding is that local planning authorities already have powers to create local lists for buildings of local historic importance, and those can include heritage pubs. I am working to try to save the Old Glen House, one of our heritage pubs, and that has been suggested to me as an avenue for doing that. Does he agree that there is already provision under current rules?
Mike Wood
That provision is helpful but insufficient, partly because it relies on proactive actions by local authorities, which, as in the case of registering assets of community value, are often taken only once there is a clear threat, by which time it may be too late. Those local listings also do not offer the full protection that heritage pubs need. In particular, they offer little to no protection for heritage interiors.
We are finding that some pub interiors—particularly those from the interwar period and immediately after the second world war—are becoming rarer and rarer. Many of the things that people identify as typical of British pubs are being replaced by, shall we say, more generic dining layouts? It is really important to preserve those features of local heritage, but local listing does not typically help with that, nor does it offer the criminal penalties for unlawful demolition that I think are appropriate.
Clause 9 would provide that at the moment an owner intends to sell a registered pub, they must formally notify the council, which must in turn notify local Members of Parliament, ward councillors and the public so that secret backroom deals behind closed doors would become impossible.
Secondly, the Bill would introduce a genuine community right to buy, extending the positive changes the Government have introduced through the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026. Because the sale of the Crooked House was shrouded in secrecy, neither the community nor responsible pub operators had any real opportunity to put together a viable bid to keep it trading before it was sold. Under the powers of clauses 9 and 10, during the first 12 months on the market a registered heritage pub could be sold only if the buyer were to enter into a legally binding covenant guaranteeing that it would operate as a pub, or if it were sold to a community group. Community buyers would be granted up to 18 months to complete the purchase.
Alex Ballinger
That is a sensible suggestion. I like the hon. Gentleman’s proposal that the public should be informed about a potential sale—or, indeed, about any other changes listed in the Bill. How does he see such communication happening with the public so that those who are not on the internet can find out about a potential sale and stand up for their pub?
Mike Wood
Local representatives have an important role. Obviously, there are established methods for communicating public notices, but I do not think that anything will replace a good, well organised local campaign by the local Member of Parliament or the local councillors engaging their local communities.
Crucially, adopting the framework of the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026, if a community group cannot reach an agreement on price with the seller because the seller is demanding an unrealistic, exorbitant price, the price will be determined by an independent valuer. That means that rogue owners would no longer be able to price out local people with inflated asking prices designed purely to force a dereliction narrative.
Thirdly, the Bill establishes immediate interim protection against demolition. When local residents discovered that Crooked House had been sold, local councillor Victoria Wilson moved with great speed to submit an application for statutory listing—but the pub was torched and bulldozed before that application could even be considered. Clauses 5 to 7 resolve such situations by adopting a proven system that has operated successfully in Wales for years; I understand that the Welsh Labour Government introduced it 20 years ago. Under this Bill, the moment an application to list a registered heritage pub is submitted, it automatically receives interim listed building status. Overnight, it is treated in planning law as a listed building, stopping bulldozers in their tracks and stopping the interiors from being ripped out, while the experts do their work.
Joe Powell (Kensington and Bayswater) (Lab)
I pay tribute to the hon. Member’s campaign on the Crooked House. Will he elaborate on how he sees that system interacting with the asset of community value option? A campaign group in my constituency has made a pub an asset of community value. That has bought it some time, but of course it still has to raise the money for a bid. I am curious about whether he has explored that option, too.
Mike Wood
The Bill is very much designed to complement and work alongside the measures in the Localism Act 2011. I am proud that the then coalition Government introduced the system of assets of community value in the Act; this Government then extended some of those provisions in their English devolution Act. The Bill will not replace or supplant any of those measures, but it will recognise that communities have that power—they have generally gone through what is still not an easy process to navigate only when they have been aware of a clear and direct threat, by which time, as we saw with the Crooked House, it can be far too late for that to matter. The Bill therefore extends some of the provisions to cover all the heritage pubs on the heritage pub register.
Clause 8 includes a fair compensation mechanism for owners if listing is ultimately refused, ensuring proper balance and property safeguards—again, copying the system introduced in Wales.
Finally, clause 11 would kill speculative development at source. It creates a strict presumption against planning permission for change of use of any registered pub. Clearly, the national planning policy framework has raised the bar for change of use for heritage buildings and many pubs, but having the protection in primary legislation—clearly in an Act of Parliament—will be more effective. We have all seen cases in which our own local councils and planning authorities have looked at some of the provisions of the NPPF that we thought were safeguards against inappropriate development and decided that those were not as strong as we had imagined or as we had thought they were intended to be when introduced. The Bill overcomes that by putting the presumption into primary legislation so that permission cannot be granted unless the owner can prove that the property has been marketed at an independent and fair price and no pub operator or community bid has emerged. If the buyers of the Crooked House had known that they could never convert the site into an alternative development or waste depot, I do not think they would have touched it, and it would have remained in hands dedicated to pulling pints.
Alex Ballinger
The hon. Member is being very generous with interventions; I do appreciate that. I thank him for recognising that the national policy planning framework has made positive changes to the heritage pub standards and allowed them to stay open. Before he finishes, will he tell me if he has considered anywhere in his Bill upwards-only rent reviews—whereby landlords, potentially of heritage and other pubs, are able only to increase rents even if market conditions make it more difficult for pubs, putting a real financial pressure on the managers and operators of those pubs?
Mike Wood
That is not directly part of the Bill, but it is an issue that affects a large number of tenanted pubs across the country, whether heritage or more modern, and is certainly something the Pubs Code Adjudicator needs to look at. The Government may wish to consider whether that needs to change at the next review of the pubs code.
The hon. Gentleman may have been optimistic in suggesting that I was drawing to a close. Turning to the Treasury Bench and the Minister, let me say that I know how the machinery of Government works. I know that somewhere in the departmental briefcase today is a neatly typed briefing folder with the word “resist” stamped across the top. Civil servants and officials are famously ingenious at finding 27 procedural reasons why a sensible idea cannot possibly be enacted on a Friday from a private Member’s Bill that they did not think of. They will agonise over definitions and claim that existing powers are entirely sufficient, even when the rubble of our heritage proves that they are not.
I say in all sincerity to the Minister, who I know cares deeply about this issue, that she does not need to resist the Bill. This issue should be above narrow party divides. I do not want to panic our Liberal Democrat colleagues, but I make an open, unreserved—one may even call it comprehensive—offer to the Government and colleagues on all sides of the House to support the Bill on Second Reading today and let us work collaboratively ahead of Committee stage. If hon. Members across the House agree on the central premise that our historic pubs are precious, that there are gaps in the current protections and that we should act to close those gaps before even more valued heritage pubs are lost forever, then the right and proper course today is to grant the Bill its Second Reading and work with me to make it the best Bill it can be.
The Second Reading debate is when we discuss the principle of the Bill; the detailed scrutiny belongs in Committee. Let us be entirely realistic about the parliamentary arithmetic: under the Standing Orders, the Government will have a clear, 11 to six majority on the Public Bill Committee. They will have complete control. If Ministers feel that certain definitions in clause 12 need refinement, that the timelines in clause 9 need tweaking or that the council duties in clause 1 need streamlining, the Government have the votes to agree those amendments with ease. I stand ready to work with the Minister, line by line, clause by clause, to agree amendments that give the Government the comfort they need while giving our heritage pubs the protection the public demands. What we cannot do, and what our constituents will not forgive us for doing, is to walk away, hide behind procedural excuses and leave the door wide open for the next historic pub to be bulldozed on a Sunday night.
Nothing we do today can undo the heartbreak felt across my constituency and the wider region when the Crooked House fell, but by passing this Bill we can ensure that its enduring legacy is a legal shield that protects every beloved historic pub across England for generations to come.
Adam Jogee (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)
Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker—I feel like I have just won the pub quiz, being called first. Christmas has come early!
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on Second Reading of the Heritage Public Houses Bill, but before I do, I would like to say the name Donna Ann Reece. Donna was 38 and a constituent of mine, and sadly, Staffordshire police has launched a murder investigation after she was found dead at a property in Clayton in my constituency on Monday this week. An investigation is under way, so we have to be very careful in what we say, but let me say this: every woman in our country and across the world deserves to live freely and safe from the effects of male violence, and I will do whatever I can to make sure that happens in Newcastle-under-Lyme. I thank the emergency services for their diligence and pray that justice will be done. Of course, I also extend my condolences to Donna’s family and friends, who are grieving at this time. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Yardley (Jess Phillips) will no doubt call Donna’s name next March for International Women’s Day, but I thought it was important that I did so today here. Thank you for your indulgence, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Turning to the Bill, who doesn’t like a visit to the pub for cold refreshments of all kinds?
Adam Jogee
I do not know what happens in Kensington, but we like a cold refreshment in Newcastle-under-Lyme.
I love visiting and supporting the many excellent pubs in Newcastle-under-Lyme and our surrounding communities in north Staffordshire and south Cheshire. With that in mind, I thank the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood), my county colleague, for bringing the Bill to the House today. I am very pleased to see my old friend, the Minister for Homelessness, Democracy, Communities and Faith, in her place—old in length of friendship, not in age, just for clarity, otherwise she will never accept an invitation to come and see us in Newcastle-under-Lyme!
All of us know how important our local pubs are to knitting our community together, boosting our local economies and, importantly, making the very best of the hard work of Britain’s farmers and their produce. Newcastle-under-Lyme is home to a number of historic pubs, all worthy of a visit, all welcoming to old and new, and all with a strong recommendation from their Member of Parliament in the House today. Take the Old Brown Jug down on Bridge Street, the scene of many a gig played by my late uncle Colin Cooper and his Climax Blues Band through the ’60s and ’70s. It is a fabulous building that dates back to the mid-19th century. I should declare an interest, in that the Jug felt like my unofficial office during the selection campaign to be Labour’s candidate in Newcastle-under-Lyme.
Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
My hon. Friend rightly highlights that pubs are a venue for historic music. Does he not think that this Bill is rather limited in describing heritage as being simply about the building, when sometimes the events in the building are also deserving of heritage status? I think of the Cavern Club in Liverpool as another example, and I wonder if he has any more to say about the history of the particular venue he highlighted.
Adam Jogee
My hon. Friend, as ever, makes an important intervention. We all know how soulful and tuneful she is, so I am not surprised that she sought to intervene on that point.
Adam Jogee
Certainly not heritage. My hon. Friend is right. The Old Brown Jug did not just play host to my uncle Colin and the Climax Blues Band. It has played host to many a small gig, many a local band and many a young person almost as soulful and tuneful as my hon. Friend, and I feel sure that it will continue to play host to others in the future.
Anna Dixon
One of the pubs in my constituency, the Woolpack in Esholt, was the pub used for the filming of “Emmerdale”, if there are any fans of that show here. Although the building itself may not have huge heritage value, the pub has huge cultural heritage value, which ties in with what my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Dame Meg Hillier) said. Does he agree that we need to capture that wider cultural heritage value, such as that which the Woolpack in Esholt has for TV fans?
Adam Jogee
I am not sure what it says about me that the minute my hon. Friend said “the Woolpack”, I knew that she was talking about “Emmerdale”, although I suppose in my constituency, the Rovers Return from “Coronation Street” is a bit closer to home. She is right.
As she points out, pubs have played a role in so much of our culture, identity, heritage and history. It is important that we are comprehensive in our assessment and support.
To go back to my—thankfully—ultimately successful selection campaign to be Labour’s candidate in Newcastle-under-Lyme, it was, in many ways, the Jug wot won it. Also on Bridge Street, the Bridge Street Ale House, run by “Grum” Newbury, has an ace Irish music night on a Monday evening, a great quiz on a Tuesday, and good vibes all through the week. I am grateful to “Grum” for all he does to keep our town in the minds of local people looking for a good time, for being a destination that people want to visit, and for holding my feet to the fire on what feels like every day.
The Museum on George Street is a small and mighty tribute to the history of our community, and it is on the road to our southern border with our neighbours in the city of Stoke-on-Trent. Lastly, the Old Bulls Head, just up from my office, is the oldest pub in Newcastle town centre and dates from the 14th century. Only the Old Bulls Head is a listing building, and sadly none of the pubs that I have mentioned, and recommended to the House in the strongest terms, appear to be included on the list of assets of community value. That puts such key parts of our heritage at risk of owners moving on, the selling of local landmarks to developers or other businesses, and the sources of real community spirit being lost for ever. We cannot take risks or let that happen by default.
We must fill in the gaps to keep pubs from being sold off and demolished. Like many in my community, and I suspect like colleagues in their own communities and pubs, I would be devastated to see any of our public houses, and their hard-working staff, forced out of business. I am sure colleagues across the House would agree with that. Pubs old and new are places to learn, to enjoy, to understand, to share, to laugh, to celebrate, to console, to make memories and sometimes, I suspect, also to make mistakes.
Over recess, we were campaigning hard in the Newcastle town by-election, and I am delighted that Labour’s candidate, now Councillor Andy Fox-Hewitt, gained the seat on an 18% swing to the Labour party. With the by-election taking place in our town centre, my team benefited from being close to many of our excellent heritage pubs and waterholes for our post-canvass catch-up and note taking on casework. On more than one occasion we were in one of our historic pubs and enjoyed every moment of it. That election day, October 8 2026, my two Labour predecessors, Baroness Golding and Paul Farrelly, were out campaigning with us and, for old time’s sake, enjoying some of our heritage pubs.
Staffordshire, from my community in the north on the Cheshire and Shropshire borders to that of the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire in the south, on the fringes of the west midlands combined authority, is home to great people. We have a responsibility to protect and preserve the places where people spend time with others and find a real and meaningful community spirit. Everything is relative, however, and many pubs that will appear to be historic to an 18-year-old might feel less so to someone at the other end of the age scale. With that in mind, and with thought to the principles of the Bill and the importance of heritage public houses in my community and up and down the country—including, I am sure, in Bradford—I wish to touch on a number of the other excellent pubs in Newcastle-under-Lyme.
One of the greats is Mellards Bar in our town centre. I wish to give a shout out to all the team and extend my congratulations to them. It has just been named pub, beer and ale venue of the year at the Love Newcastle-under-Lyme Awards held at St Giles church last Friday. Mrs Jogee and I were there and enjoyed it immensely. It was amazing to see an old church—I think it was built in 1873, if not earlier—hosting an awards night. We were sitting in the pews, and there were lots of jokes, as you can imagine. Some people would probably enjoy being able to have a pint while sitting in a pew on a Sunday morning, but we will see whether Reverend Josh allows that to happen. I am delighted to have the opportunity to acknowledge the hard work done by all the team at Mellards, who have got the recognition they deserve.
Dame Meg Hillier
On the connection between beer and churches—and some religious orders—Hackney Church Brewery runs a bar as part of its mission in the wider community, underlining how historic institutions can come together as part of the cultural heritage of the beer and pub industry.
Adam Jogee
My hon. Friend is completely correct. My father, if he were here, would share stories about the Jesuits who taught him at school and how they enjoyed some of those different organisations and institutions coming together. I will probably leave that there.
In communities up and down the country, former churches have become pubs and homes, so there is an interconnected relationship between them. It is important that we do whatever we can to hold on to that heritage, celebrate it and talk about it, even if some parts of the country might not be as jazzy as Hackney South and Shoreditch. It is hard to compete—we will have to divide on that later, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Chris Murray (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that it is not just churches that can turn into pubs? I am reminded of the Tolbooth Tavern on Canongate in the Royal Mile in my constituency. It has previously been a centre for local government and a prison, and it is now a pub. Does he agree that somewhere that can combine government, politicians, alcohol and a prison may be a good idea for the future?
Adam Jogee
My hon. Friend makes an interesting intervention. The Edinburgh Festival takes place in his constituency. My wife and I, and some of my cousins, went to the festival earlier this year for the first time, despite both of us having lived in Edinburgh at separate times before my wife got stuck with me. I not sure if we went to the pub he mentions, but we went to many places during our two days in Edinburgh. I will resist the temptation to talk about prisons—that is a dangerous road to go down—but there is certainly a benefit to people socialising and coming together at the heart of our politics. Obviously, not everyone drinks alcohol, but that does not mean they cannot benefit from being included in the community spirit that underpins and drives most, if not all, pubs and communities up and down our United Kingdom. When I hear my colleagues from Scotland speak, I think of the Better Together campaign. My hon. Friend has made an excellent intervention that speaks to the strength of our United Kingdom.
Let me come down from Scotland and up from Hackney and go back to Mellards in Newcastle-under-Lyme. People of all ages come from far and wide to Mellards for “Alan’s Kwiz”, held every Thursday, keeping our good old fashioned pub traditions alive and providing an opportunity for Mellards’ faithful regulars to have a mid-week catch up and to learn, too. When I was there on “Kwiz night” a couple of weeks ago, one of the answers involved my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and another referenced the right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition—Alan just gave me a knowing smile.
As I have said in the House before, soon after my election to this place I launched my very own Newcastle-under-Lyme best pub competition. It was a timely and enjoyable opportunity to visit, celebrate and enjoy the pubs in our community. Each time we have run the competition, there have been nominations flying in from every corner of the constituency. It is always fantastic to hear about all the different things that local people in our community love about our pubs. In the end, last year’s winner was the Little Vic on King Street. I am conscious that we have to be careful about our security, but that is our local. It is an excellent place and I am often given casework when I am in there. It topped the poll among my constituents, and I put on record a big thanks to Sophie, who was doing some charity fundraising not long ago that involved putting cream on weak and useless paper plates that get thrown in people’s faces—I cannot remember what that is called, but colleagues know what I mean.
Adam Jogee
Custard pies—of course. Morecambe knows what I am talking about. Sophie went through the embarrassment of having the custard thingies thrown at her.
Lincoln Jopp (Spelthorne) (Con)
On the subject of custard pies, will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Adam Jogee
We will hear a great example about custard pies from the hon. Gentleman.
Lincoln Jopp
The hon. Member is making a very long speech, which is ranging widely, and I have slightly lost the thread. If this private Member’s Bill went to a vote, would he vote for it, against it or abstain?
Adam Jogee
The hon. Gentleman talks about custard pies—that was a very watery custard intervention. We like full-throated creamy custard here. [Interruption.] He says that I have spoken too long; I have not spoken long enough. You gave me an early Christmas present by calling me first, Madam Deputy Speaker, so I shall use the opportunity provided by you, and by my constituents in sending me here. If the hon. Gentleman sits back and relaxes for a little longer, he will hear a little more about what I think and how we should proceed. Whether we agree may be a different matter, but I am sure he will enjoy it none the less.
Our pubs play an important role in our international relations. The hon. Member for Spelthorne (Lincoln Jopp) is a shadow Foreign Office Minister, so I hope he will listen to this part of my speech with the attention he is known for. On Australia Day 2025, alongside members of Silverdale parish council, I welcomed the then Australian high commissioner, the hon. Stephen Smith, to the Bush Inn in Silverdale. As the House will know—because I suspect that, like the hon. Member for Spelthorne, it pays attention to everything I say in this House—our town was the birthplace of the sixth Prime Minister of Australia, Joseph Cook.
When Cook returned to the United Kingdom as Australia’s high commissioner here in the 1920s, he celebrated in the very same pub that we took Mr Smith to. My team and I and many other local people, not least the parish council, have traced Cook’s local story—rather unsurprisingly, he was a miner down the pit—and we raised a toast to his legacy. The only problem with Cook is that he started off in the Labour party and ended up as a Tory, but nobody is beyond redemption.
Another much-loved pub is the Gresley Arms on Alsagers Bank, which is known for having the best views in Staffordshire. The fantastic beer garden is an excellent way to spend a summer evening or, as my crew is used to, a final stop after a long day of pounding the pavements, as we get to enjoy one of our heritage public houses. The Albert first opened as a beer house in 1861—I hope this is enough heritage for the hon. Member for Spelthorne. It is run by Emma, and it is a great community pub. In fact, I took another Australian high commissioner to the United Kingdom, the hon. George Brandis, there on his visit to Newcastle-under-Lyme. I look forward to taking you to both pubs when you come to see us, Madam Deputy Speaker. That is just another example of how our pubs play such an important role in all that we do. I should say that the secretary of my constituency Labour party, Alderman Sylvia Butler, is a loyal and devoted champion of the Albert—long may that continue.
There are so many pubs that mean so much to our community. I would happily spend all day speaking about all of them, but I do not want to upset the hon. Member for Spelthorne any more. I welcome all my colleagues from all parties to come and join us for a pint back home in Newcastle-under-Lyme—it could also be a soda and lime, or anything else. Whether it is the Archer in Wolstanton or the Westbury Tavern—
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend is giving an excellent speech. He has talked about the many excellent beers available in his constituency. Does he know that elsewhere in the west midlands, he can find fantastic cider in Roberto’s bar, which is right in the heart of Halesowen? Can he talk about the other alcohol options that are available not just in heritage pubs, but in pubs all across the country? It is quite a surprise that the third-best cider pub in the country is found in Halesowen.
Adam Jogee
I am enjoying this, as I think has been said by others before. My hon. Friend makes a very important intervention, and he is right.
People can get all manner of refreshments at heritage public houses in all parts of the country. I am not sure what refreshments you would choose if you were having some of the Spelthorne watery custard, Madam Deputy Speaker, but you can certainly get a good, cold pint. You could also get a bitter lemon, which I know was ordered by the former Prime Minister, Mrs Thatcher, when she was at the Rovers Return. My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Anna Dixon) has gone, but we have talked about Emmerdale. I remember a clip of Baroness Thatcher at the Rovers Return in which she ordered a bitter lemon. That is just one example of the things people could drink there.
My observation of Mrs Thatcher does not go much further than that—I saw that quizzical look from my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (Lizzi Collinge)—do not worry. There is certainly a range of things. I am surprised that the Conservative party does not want to take a moment to talk about this, because it supposedly believes in choice. The great thing about our heritage pubs is that not only are there so many up and down the country that we can choose to go to, but, when we get there, the choices are infinite.
I am not a cider fan myself, but I wish cider drinkers in Halesowen and other parts of the west midlands very well indeed.
Let me take us back to the Archer in Wolstanton, the Westbury Tavern, the Swan in Betley, the Boat and Horses, and the Sneyd Arms on Higherland—the list goes on and on, as my speech is doing this morning, unfortunately for the hon. Member for Spelthorne. At the end of the day, our pubs are about so much more than somewhere to have a pint, a cuppa, a Coke, a juice, or the many other options that my hon. Friend the Member for Halesowen (Alex Ballinger) has allowed me to reference this morning. They provide an opportunity to see familiar faces and catch up. In other words, they make us feel like we are part of something—a neighbourhood, a village—and it is so important to our collective and individual happiness and wellbeing that that is so. We will all have heard stories from our communities of people who notice that someone has not been at the bar or has not been in recently, and that person is often checked up on. Most of the time, it is for a positive reason, but some of the time it is not, and without the connection and sense of community that pubs provide, people would not be able to do that.
I would like to say a couple more things about how we can support and protect our heritage pubs. The first is by ensuring that our town centres are safe and secure places to travel, to walk and to be in. Local people in Newcastle-under-Lyme are rightly furious that in recent times, antisocial behaviour and criminality have emerged far too frequently around the sunken roundabout and particular hotspots in town. I hope that all the relevant authorities, from borough and county councils to Staffordshire police, get a grip of this situation and ensure that all measures—including those introduced by this Government—are used and used quickly. Our town is a wonderful place to live, learn and work, and we cannot allow it to be blighted by crime and antisocial behaviour, not now and not ever. I am sick and tired of women in Newcastle-under-Lyme telling me that they do not feel safe going into our town; I do not want any woman in my family, or who I represent, to feel that way. We will not successfully protect and defend our heritage pubs if people are not going to spend their money there because they do not feel safe. I hope the relevant authorities have heard me loud and clear.
My second point is about the impact of incompetent decisions taken by local authorities, and what those can mean for celebrating and maintaining the heritage pubs that our towns are home to. Take the current situation on Brook Lane. Our town has essentially come to a standstill at rush hour in recent weeks because Brook Lane has been closed for several weeks, and is scheduled to be closed for several more. I wrote to Staffordshire county council—I suspect that the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, whose Bill we are debating this morning, shares many of my frustrations with that council. Even if the hon. Member for Spelthorne does not want to hear it, I know that my honourable county colleague will agree with me on this. I wrote to Staffordshire county council on 1 September, and I had to write to it again this week, because no letter has arrived in response to mine.
This is important, because Staffordshire county council has announced that it plans to introduce further road closures on surrounding roads. That is going to compound the situation, and will make it even more difficult for people to get to the Bridge Street Ale House I spoke about earlier, or to the Jug pub, not to mention all the other things that people have to do.
Anna Dixon
We had a similar problem with an accident on the historic bridge close to the historic pub in Harden. That road closure, which lasted for an extended period of time, and those roadworks had a significant impact on people’s ability to get to and from that lovely historic rural pub in my constituency. These disruptions can have a significant economic impact on our heritage pubs, and I agree with my hon. Friend that councils need to do a much better job of speeding up roadworks and getting them completed on time, as well as making sure that they think about the impact on our pubs.
Adam Jogee
My hon. Friend, with whom I almost always agree, is completely correct to point out the frustration caused to businesses and residents of communities, and the impact on the ability of pubs, shops and businesses generally to trade, survive and thrive, as a result of incompetent decisions made by incompetent people. From Shipley to Staffordshire north and south—if I can speak for the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire—we agree.
We cannot support our heritage pubs, nor can we add them to our list of assets, if they no longer operate because of—as my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley has pointed out—stupid decisions resulting from incompetence, or just nonsense from people who should know and do better. Our pubs are places where our communities are formed, and where we share stories of our past and our heritage from generation to generation. If we were to lose them, we would be losing a huge part of our shared history. Our historic public houses each have their own unique character and charm.
Dame Meg Hillier
Once again, my hon. Friend highlights that it is not just about the building, but about the events that take place and the conversations that happen, as he refers to obliquely. Major historic moments have happened in public houses—some of them were, of course, coffee shops at the time—so does he have any examples of such historic moments that he might like to expand on?
Adam Jogee
My hon. Friend is determined to make sure that the hon. Member for Spelthorne never speaks to me again, which may be a blessing, so I am grateful. She puts a question to me, and through me to all colleagues who may be thinking about how they can answer it in their contributions, and she is right. There are many places where people find a place to sit, to come together and to make things happen, whether it is to campaign against injustice and inequality or to call out councils for bad decisions. For example, there are the families campaigning on road safety in Newcastle-under-Lyme, particularly after the recent incident where a father was knocked down taking his child to school. An organisation has come together following their frustration and experiences. That is just one example. My hon. Friend can point to many places in her community where that will have happened. I look forward to her, when she catches your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker, being able to share some of the stories from her part of the world, as I know others will, too.
The important point about conversation is that pubs are so often home to or locations for that shared, connected thread of history, experience and understanding that goes through from the generations before us to today, as we seek to look to tomorrow. I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention and the chance to spend a minute thinking about the importance of those conversations and what happens behind the doors of our public houses, not least the older ones.
If I may, I will return for a moment to the Jug on Bridge Street, which, as I said at the beginning, was my unofficial office during my selection campaign. From a family perspective, it was like going full circle. My mother’s eldest sister, my auntie Carol—sadly late now—married my uncle Colin, who was the lead saxophonist in the Climax Blues Band, who released “Couldn’t Get It Right” and many other brilliant tunes that will have been played in pubs up and down the country, from Spelthorne to Staffordshire. I held on to that sense of connection with someone who had used the pub for years before me. I thought it was quite nice, and it was a source of comfort as I went through membership lists—you will remember this, Madam Deputy Speaker—trying to remember who I had and had not spoken to, what they had or had not said, what they wanted to say, and what I wanted to say back. The power of that connection and story is important. I am grateful to my hon. Friend, even though she is now on her phone—I tease—for giving me the opportunity to spend a minute thinking about that.
Our public houses each have their own unique character and charm, and we cannot let the generations to come to miss out on a crucial part of our heritage and our culture. This is the longest I have spoken since I was elected to the House, and I am annoyed that I did not write more, since I have the floor, but I extend my thanks to all those in every way who keep our pub sector alive in Newcastle-under-Lyme. They do so much for the community and our local economy. In many ways, our island nation home would be so different if it were otherwise.
Joe Powell
I appreciate that my hon. Friend may be drawing to a close, but as he is thanking people around the country who run these pubs, will he give special congratulations to the now more than 200 community-run pubs? There are co-operatives, too. These pubs are taken on by the community, who want to save their pub because they appreciate the value that it brings. Does he have any co-operative or community-run pubs that he might want to thank, or will he just join me in general in thanking that movement?
Adam Jogee
I could point to many excellent examples of that sense of community, but I am conscious that others may want to speak. I could not agree more with my hon. Friend, and he is right to raise that issue. It speaks to the people power of community, and I thank him for his intervention.
Our historic pubs are at the heart of our communities, and once we lose them, we rarely get them back. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire for bringing this Bill to the House today, for giving us the opportunity to debate these important issues, and for giving me a chance to speak about the excellent public houses, both old and new, in Newcastle-under-Lyme. I know that colleagues from across the House, and from across our United Kingdom, will do similar shortly.
We must keep working to make sure that our pubs are preserved and supported. As I speak in this debate today, I think of all the happy times I have spent with friends, family, loved ones and many a constituent across a pub table—happy times indeed!
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
Order. Before I call the next speaker, I gently remind Members that, although the custard pie references have been very interesting and entertaining, we are here to discuss whether the Heritage Public Houses Bill should have a Second Reading.
Brian Mathew (Melksham and Devizes) (LD)
I thank the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) for bringing forward this valuable private Member’s Bill on historic British pubs.
I have some wonderful examples in my constituency, including, among others in Melksham, the King’s Arms, which has been named by Historic England as a grade II listed building; the Bear, which was used as a coaching inn in the 18th century; and the Market Tavern. In Devizes, there is another Bear in the hotel on the Market Place; the Lamb Inn, which dates back to the 15th century; the White Bear Inn, which is grade II listed and reputed to be the oldest pub in Devizes, dating back to 1567, and which is allegedly haunted; and the Black Swan Inn. In Urchfont, there is the Lamb Inn, a thatched pub dating back to the 15th century. In Potterne, there is the George & Dragon, which, again, dates back to the 15th century and is recognised on the national heritage list. In Market Lavington, there is the Green Dragon, which dates back to the 17th century. In Sells Green, near Seend, there is the Three Magpies, another grade II listed pub, which has links to the canal. In Bradford on Avon, there is the Barge Inn, the Three Horseshoes and the Swan, which sadly closed in September 2023.
Adam Jogee
The hon. Gentleman mentioned that one of his pubs dating back to the 15th century is haunted. Can he tell us what it is haunted by?
Brian Mathew
I will not go into the ins and outs of hauntings, although they may be of great interest to the hon. Member.
In Box, there is the Northey Arms, a historic inn close to the Great Western Railway, and the Queens Head, which is famous locally for its music. In Colerne, there is the Fox & Hounds, a grade II listed pub, and the Six Bells, which dates from the 18th century. In Winsley, there is the Seven Stars.
Some pubs in my constituency have closed and then reopened with community support—the Hop Pole in Limpley Stoke is a worthy example—and others are in the midst of this struggle, such as the Ivy in Heddington, which has closed. The Somerset Arms in Semington has received support from none other than His Royal Highness Prince William, the Prince of Wales.
Historic pubs need our support. Moreover, all pubs and communities need an economic shift from the supermarket to the pub, and I hope that the Chancellor is listening as he writes his Budget speech. The people need the pub, and the future of our country needs these pubs.
Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) not only for bringing forward what is a complex, multi-clause Bill—it is quite brave of him as usually only the short ones are successful—but for the passion with which he spoke about the outrageous demolition of the Crooked House pub. I do not know his constituency, but I vividly remember the outrage that I and many people I met in the constituency felt about that being allowed to happen—that people could be that brazen and get rid of a major cultural asset.
The hon. Gentleman also highlighted pubs and planning in his speech. I will touch on that in a moment, but it is worth highlighting that in the City of London, on the edge of my constituency, there are many pubs that have been preserved through planning applications. Sometimes it is quite odd to walk down a major road in the City of London and see a little gap where there is a pub surrounded by high-rise glass-fronted office blocks. Sometimes we need to think about what we mean by heritage. Is it the pub building or the history of the site, and how does that fit in with modern planning applications? I will touch on that in more detail later.
In simple terms, this is quite a long Bill for what it seeks to achieve. I want to cover three areas. What is the Bill adding to the existing landscape to protect our heritage assets? What is the definition of a heritage pub? Although there is a definition outlined in the Bill, I think it is a bit unambitious, if I may say so to the hon. Gentleman, because, as I have already highlighted a couple of times, heritage is wider than just the physical building. There are new buildings—new entrants to the market, as it were, as my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Adam Jogee) eloquently put it—and heritage can mean different things, depending on where we are in the age range. Some of us will remember things because we have been around a long while, but for some people, because of the zeitgeist, the pub of the moment is what will become the heritage venue of the future. I also want to touch on assets of community value, which plays into my first point—why this Bill, when we already have a mechanism?
We already have many mechanisms in the planning system to protect pubs and other heritage buildings. To start with, proposals to demolish or change the use of a pub already require a planning application, and pubs are deliberately excluded from the relevant permitted development rights that various Governments have introduced to make it easier for development to happen. Of course, this Government have been a champion of making it easier to develop, while also trying to maintain protections. That is the challenge, and we have a Prime Minister who rightly wants to see more devolution. When I started as a baby councillor, quite a long time ago—over 30 years ago—I inherited a seat on Islington council from Baroness Hodge, formerly of this place. Under her leadership of the council, there was an excellent councillor called Maurice Barnes, who wanted neighbourhood services—services delivered within pram-pushing distance.
Now our Prime Minister talks about things in every postcode, and with the internet we have moved on from pram-pushing distance, but local devolution to the most appropriate level is right, and it is still a challenge. We want to devolve responsibility, but we want to make sure that planning is not held up unnecessarily. Nevertheless, we have permitted development rights, and proposals to demolish or change the use of a pub are already excluded from that.
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend is making an excellent point about the development of high streets and the new powers that the Prime Minister has given to restrict places such as vape shops and betting shops on the high street, removing “aim to permit” and so on. I am affected in my area—positively—by the number of microbars opening up in empty shops on the high street and by the positive impact they are having on our communities. Will my hon. Friend say a little more about how that is positively affecting her area?
Dame Meg Hillier
Absolutely. I am tempted to get into the second part of my speech, but I will touch on this because our railway arches in Hackney South and Shoreditch are becoming a real hub of diverse businesses. A lot of the breweries in my constituency are based there—I will not go through them all now—brewing on site and providing wonderful venues in a historic environment, but they would not count as heritage pubs under the Bill because they have not been around as a pub for 150 years.
Mike Wood
I thank the hon. Lady for the point she is making. She will see in clause 12 that one of the criteria given for what makes up a heritage pub is it having been around for 150 years, but the other part of the definition is if
“the local planning authority deems its building or interior to have a degree of heritage significance”.
It has been well established that “heritage significance” includes links to events and famous people in the past, so it will cover the type of event she was speaking about earlier. If she thinks that that definition needs to be broadened, will she work with me to find the right amendment in Committee to improve the Bill, so that it does what she and I want it to do?
Dame Meg Hillier
I make a heartfelt commitment to the hon. Gentleman that if his Bill progresses today, I will certainly work with him on that. Let us wait and see what happens in that respect. The challenge of a Bill of this length is that is quite complex to amend, because there are a lot of moving parts that already cut across, as I have touched on briefly. I will go into a bit more detail on that, but I will come back to the point about the vibrancy of modern pubs and breweries as they are making a really big difference in my constituency and up and down the country.
In planning terms, we had arches that were, unfortunately, sold off under the previous Government. When Network Rail was classified as a public body and therefore came under public spending rules, there was a gap in funding that previously would have been raised from private markets. To fill that gap, the Government of the day sold off the family silver, selling the railway arches that Network Rail owned—in my area, we also have ones owned by Transport for London—including a large percentage of them in my part of London and in parts of south London, including maybe in the Minister’s constituency. The Arch Company has a job as a landlord, and it inherited some very interesting businesses, which I will touch on in a moment.
Anna Dixon
In Shipley, we have an old tramshed, which was very successfully converted and is now the location for the SALT brewery, as well as a very popular bar, restaurant and gathering place. Again, it is not strictly within the definition of a heritage pub in the Bill, but the tramshed itself is a heritage space where SALT is now producing fantastic, excellent local beers, which I encourage all hon. Members to sample when they visit Shipley.
Dame Meg Hillier
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention.
With your indulgence, Madam Deputy Speaker, I do not want to get too much into every clause of the Bill, because this is a debate about its principles, but the important principle my hon. Friend highlights is that we can have heritage buildings that might or might not quite meet the definition. To be clear to the House, the definition the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire rightly highlighted is that a pub must be
“at least 150 years old and…used as a public house in the past ten years”.
There is still a debate there about something that maybe was a pub 11 years ago, so I think there is also a gap there. It also states:
“has been most recently used as a public house and the local planning authority deems its building or interior to have a degree of heritage significance meriting consideration in planning decisions”.
That is a debatable point, when a tram shed may have gone through further changes—different eras of planning may change things.
I remember that there was one warehouse in the heart of Shoreditch that, very unusually, had not been basemented in the Victorian era and had been in sole ownership for many, many years. As a result, when development occurred on that site, the fantastic Museum of London, now renamed the London Museum, brought in its archaeology department—as it is in London for every planning development—which discovered that there was land there where Shakespeare himself had performed one of his first plays. When the building was developed, the very ground where Shakespeare—the bard himself—trod, was preserved under glass. That shows that buildings move and change. So, without swaying too much into the detail, the definition is really important. It may be that the tramshed in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Anna Dixon) would qualify, but if some of the old tramshed trappings have been removed, with the change of use, it may not, so there is an interesting point there.
I will turn back to the point I was trying to make about planning and the existing measures, which is why I think this Bill may be over-layering that unnecessarily. Local planning authorities do, of course, have powers to use an enforcement notice for a breach of planning control, with the maximum penalty being an unlimited fine. The Crooked House, sadly, was a breach of planning control, and the fine did not resolve the problem, so there is a gap in current planning law. I am sure we all have examples in our constituencies of mysterious fires or things happening, whether in our time or in a predecessor’s time, because the penalty is not enough of a deterrent to somebody with deep pockets, who can simply pay that penalty and then go ahead and continue with the redevelopment. With the Crooked House, there were clearly people who had no regard for the punishment that might fall on them.
Joe Powell
I just wanted to give a hopeful example from just outside my constituency, where a developer knocked down the Carlton Tavern, and Westminster council ordered the pub to rebuilt brick by brick. It has now reopened and is proving really popular. It is possible to stay the course and get that enforcement and planning system to come in even when someone may have broken the law initially.
Dame Meg Hillier
Indeed. I have seen that, too. There is a property on Pentonville Road that was demolished and then rebuilt, and is now the headquarters of the Royal National Institute of Blind People. Looking at it, one can see the shape of the old building, but sadly it does not have all the character. There is nothing that quite protects a building.
Is an unlimited fine enough when it comes to buildings that are of such important heritage? Perhaps the Minister could respond to that. Even if the Bill does not pass today, perhaps there is scope for the Government to consider some of the thrust of the proposals and desires of the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, over which there is clearly some agreement across the House, in a future planning Bill. If the Bill were not to go through today, I would certainly be very happy to work with the hon. Gentleman on such issues. I suspect there may be wider support for that.
The other area around planning is about listed buildings. Pubs that are formally designated as listed buildings are afforded additional protection in the planning system, with listed building consent needed to demolish or undertake any works of alteration or extension that affect the listed building’s character or appearance as a building of special architectural or historic interest. Of course, failure to obtain listed building consent is an offence. Again, I ask the Minister whether the sanctions are enough where there is wilful action to interfere with buildings—the Crooked House is a terrible example of what can happen here—whether listed, as I have highlighted, or not. I think we need to consider whether there are any tweaks that could be made to future planning law.
As I hinted at in my interventions on my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme, I want to move on to cover what we consider heritage to be. As the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire rightly points out, he has tried to provide a definition in this Bill, and I am not knocking his attempt to do so. However, if we are talking about pubs, heritage is more than just the building, because pubs are not just a building.
I think about the pubs that are emerging in my constituency; they are our modern heritage. I lose count of the number of microbreweries I have in my constituency—I would be very happy to arrange a visit to some of them. We are the crucible of craft brewery. At one point, there were five craft breweries in one ward in Hackney Central, although the famous Five Points brewery—named after the five-point roundabout in Hackney Central, where the Pembury Tavern is based—has now moved to another part of Hackney. It is now based in Victoria ward, I think, where it has a wonderful premises and a brewery on site. It was originally set up by Ed Mason.
These modern spaces are not just about the space and what they are brewing. In many cases, they are working hard to bring in heritage hops, and some of my microbreweries have relationships with Kent farms. They are trying to create British beers with British hops. They are really working through how to retain the heritage of the beer industry, not just the venue. They are groundbreaking, but also looking backward historically. I think that that heritage is important, too. There could be challenges that mean that those pubs, bars and breweries find it hard to survive. We know all of the challenges that face our high streets, from business rates to energy prices—things that are putting hospitality businesses under great pressure.
I mentioned Hackney Church Brew Co., which is also under an arch, in Hackney central, near to the church itself—
Proceedings interrupted (Standing Order No. 11(4)).