Meg Hillier
Main Page: Meg Hillier (Labour (Co-op) - Hackney South and Shoreditch)
Adam Jogee
I do not know what happens in Kensington, but we like a cold refreshment in Newcastle-under-Lyme.
I love visiting and supporting the many excellent pubs in Newcastle-under-Lyme and our surrounding communities in north Staffordshire and south Cheshire. With that in mind, I thank the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood), my county colleague, for bringing the Bill to the House today. I am very pleased to see my old friend, the Minister for Homelessness, Democracy, Communities and Faith, in her place—old in length of friendship, not in age, just for clarity, otherwise she will never accept an invitation to come and see us in Newcastle-under-Lyme!
All of us know how important our local pubs are to knitting our community together, boosting our local economies and, importantly, making the very best of the hard work of Britain’s farmers and their produce. Newcastle-under-Lyme is home to a number of historic pubs, all worthy of a visit, all welcoming to old and new, and all with a strong recommendation from their Member of Parliament in the House today. Take the Old Brown Jug down on Bridge Street, the scene of many a gig played by my late uncle Colin Cooper and his Climax Blues Band through the ’60s and ’70s. It is a fabulous building that dates back to the mid-19th century. I should declare an interest, in that the Jug felt like my unofficial office during the selection campaign to be Labour’s candidate in Newcastle-under-Lyme.
Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
My hon. Friend rightly highlights that pubs are a venue for historic music. Does he not think that this Bill is rather limited in describing heritage as being simply about the building, when sometimes the events in the building are also deserving of heritage status? I think of the Cavern Club in Liverpool as another example, and I wonder if he has any more to say about the history of the particular venue he highlighted.
Adam Jogee
My hon. Friend, as ever, makes an important intervention. We all know how soulful and tuneful she is, so I am not surprised that she sought to intervene on that point.
Adam Jogee
Certainly not heritage. My hon. Friend is right. The Old Brown Jug did not just play host to my uncle Colin and the Climax Blues Band. It has played host to many a small gig, many a local band and many a young person almost as soulful and tuneful as my hon. Friend, and I feel sure that it will continue to play host to others in the future.
Adam Jogee
I am not sure what it says about me that the minute my hon. Friend said “the Woolpack”, I knew that she was talking about “Emmerdale”, although I suppose in my constituency, the Rovers Return from “Coronation Street” is a bit closer to home. She is right.
As she points out, pubs have played a role in so much of our culture, identity, heritage and history. It is important that we are comprehensive in our assessment and support.
To go back to my—thankfully—ultimately successful selection campaign to be Labour’s candidate in Newcastle-under-Lyme, it was, in many ways, the Jug wot won it. Also on Bridge Street, the Bridge Street Ale House, run by “Grum” Newbury, has an ace Irish music night on a Monday evening, a great quiz on a Tuesday, and good vibes all through the week. I am grateful to “Grum” for all he does to keep our town in the minds of local people looking for a good time, for being a destination that people want to visit, and for holding my feet to the fire on what feels like every day.
The Museum on George Street is a small and mighty tribute to the history of our community, and it is on the road to our southern border with our neighbours in the city of Stoke-on-Trent. Lastly, the Old Bulls Head, just up from my office, is the oldest pub in Newcastle town centre and dates from the 14th century. Only the Old Bulls Head is a listing building, and sadly none of the pubs that I have mentioned, and recommended to the House in the strongest terms, appear to be included on the list of assets of community value. That puts such key parts of our heritage at risk of owners moving on, the selling of local landmarks to developers or other businesses, and the sources of real community spirit being lost for ever. We cannot take risks or let that happen by default.
We must fill in the gaps to keep pubs from being sold off and demolished. Like many in my community, and I suspect like colleagues in their own communities and pubs, I would be devastated to see any of our public houses, and their hard-working staff, forced out of business. I am sure colleagues across the House would agree with that. Pubs old and new are places to learn, to enjoy, to understand, to share, to laugh, to celebrate, to console, to make memories and sometimes, I suspect, also to make mistakes.
Over recess, we were campaigning hard in the Newcastle town by-election, and I am delighted that Labour’s candidate, now Councillor Andy Fox-Hewitt, gained the seat on an 18% swing to the Labour party. With the by-election taking place in our town centre, my team benefited from being close to many of our excellent heritage pubs and waterholes for our post-canvass catch-up and note taking on casework. On more than one occasion we were in one of our historic pubs and enjoyed every moment of it. That election day, October 8 2026, my two Labour predecessors, Baroness Golding and Paul Farrelly, were out campaigning with us and, for old time’s sake, enjoying some of our heritage pubs.
Staffordshire, from my community in the north on the Cheshire and Shropshire borders to that of the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire in the south, on the fringes of the west midlands combined authority, is home to great people. We have a responsibility to protect and preserve the places where people spend time with others and find a real and meaningful community spirit. Everything is relative, however, and many pubs that will appear to be historic to an 18-year-old might feel less so to someone at the other end of the age scale. With that in mind, and with thought to the principles of the Bill and the importance of heritage public houses in my community and up and down the country—including, I am sure, in Bradford—I wish to touch on a number of the other excellent pubs in Newcastle-under-Lyme.
One of the greats is Mellards Bar in our town centre. I wish to give a shout out to all the team and extend my congratulations to them. It has just been named pub, beer and ale venue of the year at the Love Newcastle-under-Lyme Awards held at St Giles church last Friday. Mrs Jogee and I were there and enjoyed it immensely. It was amazing to see an old church—I think it was built in 1873, if not earlier—hosting an awards night. We were sitting in the pews, and there were lots of jokes, as you can imagine. Some people would probably enjoy being able to have a pint while sitting in a pew on a Sunday morning, but we will see whether Reverend Josh allows that to happen. I am delighted to have the opportunity to acknowledge the hard work done by all the team at Mellards, who have got the recognition they deserve.
Dame Meg Hillier
On the connection between beer and churches—and some religious orders—Hackney Church Brewery runs a bar as part of its mission in the wider community, underlining how historic institutions can come together as part of the cultural heritage of the beer and pub industry.
Adam Jogee
My hon. Friend is completely correct. My father, if he were here, would share stories about the Jesuits who taught him at school and how they enjoyed some of those different organisations and institutions coming together. I will probably leave that there.
In communities up and down the country, former churches have become pubs and homes, so there is an interconnected relationship between them. It is important that we do whatever we can to hold on to that heritage, celebrate it and talk about it, even if some parts of the country might not be as jazzy as Hackney South and Shoreditch. It is hard to compete—we will have to divide on that later, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Adam Jogee
My hon. Friend, with whom I almost always agree, is completely correct to point out the frustration caused to businesses and residents of communities, and the impact on the ability of pubs, shops and businesses generally to trade, survive and thrive, as a result of incompetent decisions made by incompetent people. From Shipley to Staffordshire north and south—if I can speak for the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire—we agree.
We cannot support our heritage pubs, nor can we add them to our list of assets, if they no longer operate because of—as my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley has pointed out—stupid decisions resulting from incompetence, or just nonsense from people who should know and do better. Our pubs are places where our communities are formed, and where we share stories of our past and our heritage from generation to generation. If we were to lose them, we would be losing a huge part of our shared history. Our historic public houses each have their own unique character and charm.
Dame Meg Hillier
Once again, my hon. Friend highlights that it is not just about the building, but about the events that take place and the conversations that happen, as he refers to obliquely. Major historic moments have happened in public houses—some of them were, of course, coffee shops at the time—so does he have any examples of such historic moments that he might like to expand on?
Adam Jogee
My hon. Friend is determined to make sure that the hon. Member for Spelthorne never speaks to me again, which may be a blessing, so I am grateful. She puts a question to me, and through me to all colleagues who may be thinking about how they can answer it in their contributions, and she is right. There are many places where people find a place to sit, to come together and to make things happen, whether it is to campaign against injustice and inequality or to call out councils for bad decisions. For example, there are the families campaigning on road safety in Newcastle-under-Lyme, particularly after the recent incident where a father was knocked down taking his child to school. An organisation has come together following their frustration and experiences. That is just one example. My hon. Friend can point to many places in her community where that will have happened. I look forward to her, when she catches your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker, being able to share some of the stories from her part of the world, as I know others will, too.
The important point about conversation is that pubs are so often home to or locations for that shared, connected thread of history, experience and understanding that goes through from the generations before us to today, as we seek to look to tomorrow. I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention and the chance to spend a minute thinking about the importance of those conversations and what happens behind the doors of our public houses, not least the older ones.
If I may, I will return for a moment to the Jug on Bridge Street, which, as I said at the beginning, was my unofficial office during my selection campaign. From a family perspective, it was like going full circle. My mother’s eldest sister, my auntie Carol—sadly late now—married my uncle Colin, who was the lead saxophonist in the Climax Blues Band, who released “Couldn’t Get It Right” and many other brilliant tunes that will have been played in pubs up and down the country, from Spelthorne to Staffordshire. I held on to that sense of connection with someone who had used the pub for years before me. I thought it was quite nice, and it was a source of comfort as I went through membership lists—you will remember this, Madam Deputy Speaker—trying to remember who I had and had not spoken to, what they had or had not said, what they wanted to say, and what I wanted to say back. The power of that connection and story is important. I am grateful to my hon. Friend, even though she is now on her phone—I tease—for giving me the opportunity to spend a minute thinking about that.
Our public houses each have their own unique character and charm, and we cannot let the generations to come to miss out on a crucial part of our heritage and our culture. This is the longest I have spoken since I was elected to the House, and I am annoyed that I did not write more, since I have the floor, but I extend my thanks to all those in every way who keep our pub sector alive in Newcastle-under-Lyme. They do so much for the community and our local economy. In many ways, our island nation home would be so different if it were otherwise.
Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) not only for bringing forward what is a complex, multi-clause Bill—it is quite brave of him as usually only the short ones are successful—but for the passion with which he spoke about the outrageous demolition of the Crooked House pub. I do not know his constituency, but I vividly remember the outrage that I and many people I met in the constituency felt about that being allowed to happen—that people could be that brazen and get rid of a major cultural asset.
The hon. Gentleman also highlighted pubs and planning in his speech. I will touch on that in a moment, but it is worth highlighting that in the City of London, on the edge of my constituency, there are many pubs that have been preserved through planning applications. Sometimes it is quite odd to walk down a major road in the City of London and see a little gap where there is a pub surrounded by high-rise glass-fronted office blocks. Sometimes we need to think about what we mean by heritage. Is it the pub building or the history of the site, and how does that fit in with modern planning applications? I will touch on that in more detail later.
In simple terms, this is quite a long Bill for what it seeks to achieve. I want to cover three areas. What is the Bill adding to the existing landscape to protect our heritage assets? What is the definition of a heritage pub? Although there is a definition outlined in the Bill, I think it is a bit unambitious, if I may say so to the hon. Gentleman, because, as I have already highlighted a couple of times, heritage is wider than just the physical building. There are new buildings—new entrants to the market, as it were, as my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Adam Jogee) eloquently put it—and heritage can mean different things, depending on where we are in the age range. Some of us will remember things because we have been around a long while, but for some people, because of the zeitgeist, the pub of the moment is what will become the heritage venue of the future. I also want to touch on assets of community value, which plays into my first point—why this Bill, when we already have a mechanism?
We already have many mechanisms in the planning system to protect pubs and other heritage buildings. To start with, proposals to demolish or change the use of a pub already require a planning application, and pubs are deliberately excluded from the relevant permitted development rights that various Governments have introduced to make it easier for development to happen. Of course, this Government have been a champion of making it easier to develop, while also trying to maintain protections. That is the challenge, and we have a Prime Minister who rightly wants to see more devolution. When I started as a baby councillor, quite a long time ago—over 30 years ago—I inherited a seat on Islington council from Baroness Hodge, formerly of this place. Under her leadership of the council, there was an excellent councillor called Maurice Barnes, who wanted neighbourhood services—services delivered within pram-pushing distance.
Now our Prime Minister talks about things in every postcode, and with the internet we have moved on from pram-pushing distance, but local devolution to the most appropriate level is right, and it is still a challenge. We want to devolve responsibility, but we want to make sure that planning is not held up unnecessarily. Nevertheless, we have permitted development rights, and proposals to demolish or change the use of a pub are already excluded from that.
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend is making an excellent point about the development of high streets and the new powers that the Prime Minister has given to restrict places such as vape shops and betting shops on the high street, removing “aim to permit” and so on. I am affected in my area—positively—by the number of microbars opening up in empty shops on the high street and by the positive impact they are having on our communities. Will my hon. Friend say a little more about how that is positively affecting her area?
Dame Meg Hillier
Absolutely. I am tempted to get into the second part of my speech, but I will touch on this because our railway arches in Hackney South and Shoreditch are becoming a real hub of diverse businesses. A lot of the breweries in my constituency are based there—I will not go through them all now—brewing on site and providing wonderful venues in a historic environment, but they would not count as heritage pubs under the Bill because they have not been around as a pub for 150 years.
Mike Wood
I thank the hon. Lady for the point she is making. She will see in clause 12 that one of the criteria given for what makes up a heritage pub is it having been around for 150 years, but the other part of the definition is if
“the local planning authority deems its building or interior to have a degree of heritage significance”.
It has been well established that “heritage significance” includes links to events and famous people in the past, so it will cover the type of event she was speaking about earlier. If she thinks that that definition needs to be broadened, will she work with me to find the right amendment in Committee to improve the Bill, so that it does what she and I want it to do?
Dame Meg Hillier
I make a heartfelt commitment to the hon. Gentleman that if his Bill progresses today, I will certainly work with him on that. Let us wait and see what happens in that respect. The challenge of a Bill of this length is that is quite complex to amend, because there are a lot of moving parts that already cut across, as I have touched on briefly. I will go into a bit more detail on that, but I will come back to the point about the vibrancy of modern pubs and breweries as they are making a really big difference in my constituency and up and down the country.
In planning terms, we had arches that were, unfortunately, sold off under the previous Government. When Network Rail was classified as a public body and therefore came under public spending rules, there was a gap in funding that previously would have been raised from private markets. To fill that gap, the Government of the day sold off the family silver, selling the railway arches that Network Rail owned—in my area, we also have ones owned by Transport for London—including a large percentage of them in my part of London and in parts of south London, including maybe in the Minister’s constituency. The Arch Company has a job as a landlord, and it inherited some very interesting businesses, which I will touch on in a moment.
Anna Dixon
In Shipley, we have an old tramshed, which was very successfully converted and is now the location for the SALT brewery, as well as a very popular bar, restaurant and gathering place. Again, it is not strictly within the definition of a heritage pub in the Bill, but the tramshed itself is a heritage space where SALT is now producing fantastic, excellent local beers, which I encourage all hon. Members to sample when they visit Shipley.
Dame Meg Hillier
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention.
With your indulgence, Madam Deputy Speaker, I do not want to get too much into every clause of the Bill, because this is a debate about its principles, but the important principle my hon. Friend highlights is that we can have heritage buildings that might or might not quite meet the definition. To be clear to the House, the definition the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire rightly highlighted is that a pub must be
“at least 150 years old and…used as a public house in the past ten years”.
There is still a debate there about something that maybe was a pub 11 years ago, so I think there is also a gap there. It also states:
“has been most recently used as a public house and the local planning authority deems its building or interior to have a degree of heritage significance meriting consideration in planning decisions”.
That is a debatable point, when a tram shed may have gone through further changes—different eras of planning may change things.
I remember that there was one warehouse in the heart of Shoreditch that, very unusually, had not been basemented in the Victorian era and had been in sole ownership for many, many years. As a result, when development occurred on that site, the fantastic Museum of London, now renamed the London Museum, brought in its archaeology department—as it is in London for every planning development—which discovered that there was land there where Shakespeare himself had performed one of his first plays. When the building was developed, the very ground where Shakespeare—the bard himself—trod, was preserved under glass. That shows that buildings move and change. So, without swaying too much into the detail, the definition is really important. It may be that the tramshed in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Anna Dixon) would qualify, but if some of the old tramshed trappings have been removed, with the change of use, it may not, so there is an interesting point there.
I will turn back to the point I was trying to make about planning and the existing measures, which is why I think this Bill may be over-layering that unnecessarily. Local planning authorities do, of course, have powers to use an enforcement notice for a breach of planning control, with the maximum penalty being an unlimited fine. The Crooked House, sadly, was a breach of planning control, and the fine did not resolve the problem, so there is a gap in current planning law. I am sure we all have examples in our constituencies of mysterious fires or things happening, whether in our time or in a predecessor’s time, because the penalty is not enough of a deterrent to somebody with deep pockets, who can simply pay that penalty and then go ahead and continue with the redevelopment. With the Crooked House, there were clearly people who had no regard for the punishment that might fall on them.
Joe Powell
I just wanted to give a hopeful example from just outside my constituency, where a developer knocked down the Carlton Tavern, and Westminster council ordered the pub to rebuilt brick by brick. It has now reopened and is proving really popular. It is possible to stay the course and get that enforcement and planning system to come in even when someone may have broken the law initially.
Dame Meg Hillier
Indeed. I have seen that, too. There is a property on Pentonville Road that was demolished and then rebuilt, and is now the headquarters of the Royal National Institute of Blind People. Looking at it, one can see the shape of the old building, but sadly it does not have all the character. There is nothing that quite protects a building.
Is an unlimited fine enough when it comes to buildings that are of such important heritage? Perhaps the Minister could respond to that. Even if the Bill does not pass today, perhaps there is scope for the Government to consider some of the thrust of the proposals and desires of the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, over which there is clearly some agreement across the House, in a future planning Bill. If the Bill were not to go through today, I would certainly be very happy to work with the hon. Gentleman on such issues. I suspect there may be wider support for that.
The other area around planning is about listed buildings. Pubs that are formally designated as listed buildings are afforded additional protection in the planning system, with listed building consent needed to demolish or undertake any works of alteration or extension that affect the listed building’s character or appearance as a building of special architectural or historic interest. Of course, failure to obtain listed building consent is an offence. Again, I ask the Minister whether the sanctions are enough where there is wilful action to interfere with buildings—the Crooked House is a terrible example of what can happen here—whether listed, as I have highlighted, or not. I think we need to consider whether there are any tweaks that could be made to future planning law.
As I hinted at in my interventions on my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme, I want to move on to cover what we consider heritage to be. As the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire rightly points out, he has tried to provide a definition in this Bill, and I am not knocking his attempt to do so. However, if we are talking about pubs, heritage is more than just the building, because pubs are not just a building.
I think about the pubs that are emerging in my constituency; they are our modern heritage. I lose count of the number of microbreweries I have in my constituency—I would be very happy to arrange a visit to some of them. We are the crucible of craft brewery. At one point, there were five craft breweries in one ward in Hackney Central, although the famous Five Points brewery—named after the five-point roundabout in Hackney Central, where the Pembury Tavern is based—has now moved to another part of Hackney. It is now based in Victoria ward, I think, where it has a wonderful premises and a brewery on site. It was originally set up by Ed Mason.
These modern spaces are not just about the space and what they are brewing. In many cases, they are working hard to bring in heritage hops, and some of my microbreweries have relationships with Kent farms. They are trying to create British beers with British hops. They are really working through how to retain the heritage of the beer industry, not just the venue. They are groundbreaking, but also looking backward historically. I think that that heritage is important, too. There could be challenges that mean that those pubs, bars and breweries find it hard to survive. We know all of the challenges that face our high streets, from business rates to energy prices—things that are putting hospitality businesses under great pressure.
I mentioned Hackney Church Brew Co., which is also under an arch, in Hackney central, near to the church itself—
Proceedings interrupted (Standing Order No. 11(4)).