House of Lords

Monday 9th December 2024

(3 days, 20 hours ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text
Monday 9 December 2024
14:30
Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Leeds.

Maintained Schools: Term Dates

Monday 9th December 2024

(3 days, 20 hours ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Question
14:37
Asked by
Lord Carrington Portrait Lord Carrington
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

To ask His Majesty’s Government whether they plan to allow maintained schools to set the number of days on which they are open during a school year, in the same way as for academy schools.

Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait The Minister of State, Department for Education (Baroness Smith of Malvern) (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the Government have no plans to change the current regulations. Academies generally tend to follow the same structure as local authority-maintained schools, and we encourage local areas to work collaboratively to minimise any disruption to parents. Schools and local authorities should design their term structure first and foremost to benefit pupils’ education. Variable term dates can cause difficulties for parents, and allowing greater divergence would exacerbate that.

Lord Carrington Portrait Lord Carrington (CB)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response and declare my interest as a trustee of a community-maintained school in High Wycombe. My Question is to highlight the current difficulties experienced by maintained schools in the recruitment of teachers when the number of days they are required to open to students is fewer than that required of academies. There is a growing pattern of two-week half terms being offered by academies in the middle of the autumn term, but not by maintained schools. It is in the interests of childcare and parents, when they have children attending a range of schools, that holiday and term dates coincide. Do the Government intend to extend the flexibility to offering extended holidays to maintained schools, or at least to level up the required number of days that all schools should be open for children?

Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Under regulations, schools are expected to be open for 190 days, or 380 sessions, each year. As I suggested in my initial Answer, it is also important that there is local co-ordination around holiday dates in order to support parents and to ensure consistency, in the way the noble Lord described.

I think the noble Lord started by saying that this makes it more difficult to recruit teachers. Of course, while it is important that children have a fixed week and a specified number of days, it is of course possible, as has been the case, to develop more flexible ways in which teachers can work. The department is keen to promote that by, for example, funding a programme focused on embedding flexible working in schools. I hope that will be one of the things that will enable us to improve teacher recruitment.

Lord Storey Portrait Lord Storey (LD)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I thoroughly agree with everything the Minister has said. She is right that schools must be open for 190 days—195 days for teachers, so they can do the five days of in-service training. There has to be flexibility for such things as religious holidays in faith schools and wake walks in Lancashire; you have to be able to deal with those changes. The real problem occurs when academies with headquarters in, say, the London area but schools in the north-west try to standardise the holidays and do not take those regional variations into account. Of course, travel companies shoot up the prices during the main school holidays, and it becomes very difficult for families to afford those prices.

Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I simply reiterate what I said: it is important that there is co-operation at a local level to cover the types of schools where parents might have a child in each, to ensure consistency in school holidays. But I take the noble Lord’s point about that possibly differing from place to place. In the end, we need to focus on what is the best arrangement and the appropriate amount of time for children to be in school, so that they can get the best possible opportunity to learn.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Portrait Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, time at school is extremely important, but so is school readiness, and I warmly commend the Government on the targets announced last week. What are the Government doing, or can they do, to better support excellent charities such as Growing Minds in Oxfordshire? It does the most brilliant job but struggles all the time to keep going as it prepares children better for school.

Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My noble friend is absolutely right: how well you do throughout the whole of the rest of your education is often determined very early on in your school life. That is why, last week, the Prime Minister set out our target to ensure that 75% of children are school ready by the age of five. That is an increase on the current figure; noble Lords may be quite shocked to hear that fewer children than that are ready to start learning at the age of five. Whether through government-funded provision or government-supported voluntary sector provision such as that outlined by my noble friend, we must focus on making sure that children and their families are ready for them to start school and gain the absolute most that they can out of their time there.

Lord Lucas Portrait Lord Lucas (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, what is the Government’s opinion of Devon County Council’s proposal to charge schools £21,000 for each pupil whom they permanently exclude?

Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

That has not been drawn to my attention, but I am certainly willing to look into it and perhaps come back to the noble Lord.

Lord Laming Portrait Lord Laming (CB)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I know the Minister shares my view that it is one thing to have the schools open, but it is another to make sure that all the pupils are there. What are the Government doing to try to reduce the amount of absenteeism in schools, especially of vulnerable children?

Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The noble Lord is absolutely right: if children are not in school, they cannot learn. Although levels of absenteeism are marginally better this year than last, they are still considerably worse than before the pandemic, with around 1.6 million children—more than one in five—missing at least one day per fortnight. This is why we need a wide-ranging approach to tackling absenteeism. We need to build on the detailed data we now have available to us. We need to expect schools to focus, before a child becomes persistently absent, on the reasons why they are absent and what intervention may be necessary. We need schools to learn from those who are tacking this issue much more effectively. We are investing £15 million in expanding the specialist attendance mentoring programme for persistently absent pupils. We need to make sure that the new guidance issued in August is being followed appropriately, because this is a fundamental issue on which we need to make progress. Children need to be in school in order to learn, and in order to prevent the disruption to others in class that happens when children are absent.

Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, we on these Benches support the flexibility that academies enjoy, and we trust the discretion of trust and school leaders in how they make their decisions. With that in mind, we are extremely concerned that the Employment Rights Bill will cut across those freedoms and potentially create a ceiling, rather than a floor, in terms and conditions of employment for teaching assistants and support staff more widely. Can the Minister reassure the House that this will not happen?

Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Some enormously good work has been done by academies and maintained schools on using teaching and non-teaching staff to ensure that children are getting a good education. None of it, as far as I can see, depends on them having in place inadequate, discriminatory or undermining employment conditions for their support staff. I do not see why providing a suitable and appropriate basis for people’s employment should in any way undermine the excellent work being done by our schools.

Lord Lexden Portrait Lord Lexden (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Minister mentioned the importance of co-ordination between maintained schools and academies. How widespread is that desirable co-ordination, and what plans do the Government have for extending it?

Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

In most local authority areas there is usually a general coherence between the holiday sessions offered by maintained schools and by academies. While academy trusts are free to set their own term and holiday dates, generally there is co-ordination across local authority areas. For the sake of parents, it is, as we have discussed, generally a good thing.

Vocational Training

Monday 9th December 2024

(3 days, 20 hours ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Question
14:47
Asked by
Baroness Finn Portrait Baroness Finn
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that their legislative agenda does not undermine vocational training.

Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait The Minister of State, Department for Education (Baroness Smith of Malvern) (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education (Transfer of Functions etc) Bill is crucial for a skills system that is more responsive to employers’ skills needs. We will ensure continuity during the transition of functions from IfATE to the Secretary of State and thereby to Skills England, including guidance to learners and employers. Occupational standards, apprenticeship assessment plans and technical qualifications that are being prepared or considered for approval at the point that functions are transferred from IfATE to the Secretary of State will continue.

Baroness Finn Portrait Baroness Finn (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the IfATE transfer of functions Bill currently making its passage through your Lordships’ House takes those powers, particularly regarding standards and assessment, away from employer-led organisation and gives them to the Secretary of State. How can the Minister assure the House that this transfer of powers will not undermine confidence in vocational training?

Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

As we have discussed at some length as the Bill has gone through this House, the intention in shifting the functions is to enable them to be used by Skills England, which will be very much driven by the needs of employers, working alongside trade unions and bringing in the necessary regional and local co-ordination. I hope I provided some reassurance in Committee. There is no intention that we should move away from a system where the occupational standards and assessment plans are determined by employer groups. It is fundamentally important, to build confidence in apprenticeships and other technical qualifications, that they fulfil the requirements of employers. That is the intention for when Skills England takes on that role.

Baroness O'Grady of Upper Holloway Portrait Baroness O’Grady of Upper Holloway (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that the legacy of the last Government was nearly 7 million people of working age with little or no qualifications, one in five workers lacking even basic computer skills and the number of apprenticeships falling off a cliff? Does she agree that the remedy, to revitalise vocational training in this country, is in part to have an active industrial strategy involving both employers and unions, and investing in our FE colleges—in kit and equipment but also in staff?

Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My noble friend is absolutely right; we have a skills shortage, and it has worsened over recent years in the way she describes. That means we need the industrial strategy this Government are developing, but we need it linked closely to a much more coherent skills system, led by Skills England, which will identify, with the partnership I outlined previously, current and future skills gaps. Those gaps will then be met by improved opportunities for technical education and apprenticeships. She is also right that a key partner in delivering that will be our FE colleges, for which this Government were of course able to find an additional £300 million of revenue and £300 million of capital in the recent Budget Statement.

Baroness Garden of Frognal Portrait Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

How do the Government propose to fill the many skills gaps in our workforce without overhauling the school curriculum to prepare young people for life and work and vocational skills, in contrast to the overbearing, academic knowledge-rich curriculum of the previous Government?

Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The noble Baroness makes an important point. Whether young people—and older people—have success in their careers and can access the skills they need starts before the age of 16. It starts with the school curriculum. It is with that intention that we have set up the curriculum and assessment review, to look precisely at how we can maintain and improve our standards of numeracy and literacy, while also ensuring that we enable the curriculum and schools to have the space to develop precisely the sort of skills and aptitudes that the noble Baroness outlined.

Baroness Bull Portrait Baroness Bull (CB)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I turn the Minister’s attention to vocational training for exceptionally talented dancers and musicians, which starts at a much earlier age than we are discussing. She will know that the kind of training required is not available in the state system but is provided by schools on the Music and Dance Scheme, which are able to recruit on talent alone, regardless of financial circumstances. What are the Government doing to ensure that the legislative agenda will not impede the ability of those schools to be blind to finance and look only at talent; so that anybody with the drive and the capability can enjoy their full potential, and our creative industries will remain fully inclusive of the broad diversity of our society?

Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The noble Baroness has contributed considerably to my education, while I have been in this place, on the crucial role played by those really excellent music and dance schools. That is why the Government’s Music and Dance Scheme enables enormously talented young people, regardless of their background, to access that education—to ensure that we can continue that pipeline of completely brilliant and elite musicians and dancers, who are so important to this country’s creative sector.

Lord Bishop of Sheffield Portrait The Lord Bishop of Sheffield
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, FE college enrolments of 14 to 16 year-olds have surged by nearly one-third in the past four years, according to a recent study by the Association of Colleges, with over half consistently from the two most deprived quintiles. These students, however, mostly on vocational courses, do not have the same access to transport funding and free meals as their counterparts in schools. Can the Minister outline what steps the Government will take to address this very basic inequality?

Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The right reverend Prelate is right about some of the opportunities available to 14 to 16 year-olds in our excellent FE colleges. I was not clear about the particular inequality that he is talking about. It is of course the responsibility of local authorities to ensure that students have the school transport that they need to enable them to complete their education. I did not think there was a discrepancy between institutions in the way the right reverend Prelate outlines. I will take certainly that away and perhaps come back to him with some more information about it.

Lord Aberdare Portrait Lord Aberdare (CB)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, further to the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, how will the Government ensure that there are clearer pathways for young people who do not aspire to university, but seek to develop vocational or technical skills for careers, including in the construction sector? How will they address the critical shortages of skilled tradespeople such as bricklayers, without whom plans to build 1.5 million homes in the next five years are simply not achievable?

Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The noble Lord is right that we need to improve the careers advice available to young people in our schools. That is why this Government are investing in it and in the expert advisers who deliver it. He is right about construction skills; we need the excellent contribution of our FE colleges. For example, the £140 million that we announced two or three weeks ago will, through the Construction Industry Training Board and the National House Building Council, contribute to the development of skills hubs that link to large housing developments. This is precisely to ensure that we have the skilled tradespeople we need to deliver the Government’s important target to build 1.5 million new homes during this Parliament.

Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the combination of the Government’s IfATE Bill, which dilutes the role of employers in developing qualifications and standards, and the proposal for the growth and skills levy points to more change, and new delay and uncertainty, in a system that desperately needs stability if employers are really to have confidence in it. The noble Baroness talked about the powers that will be used by Skills England. She knows, from debates in Committee, that the whole House wants Skills England to succeed, even though it is not mentioned in the IfATE Bill. I wonder whether the noble Baroness would make my day by announcing what government amendments might come forward on Report to address the House’s concerns?

Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

At this time of year in particular, I am always keen to make the noble Baroness’s day. I assure her that I am reflecting hard on the good debates that we have had in Committee and thinking about how I can provide some assurance to noble Lords about the role of Skills England. As I described, it will be enormously important to ensure the development of our skills system, which noble Lords have identified that it needs. I assure the noble Baroness, as I did on several occasions during debates on the Bill, that there will be continuity of the occupational standards and assessment plans that have been or are currently being developed, during the transfer of those functions. I will come back to noble Lords on the other issues before Report, in a way that I hope reassures them about the significance that this Government place on Skills England and this House’s ability to monitor it and to hold us to account for its delivery.

House of Lords: Numbers and Eligibility

Monday 9th December 2024

(3 days, 20 hours ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Question
14:58
Asked by
Lord Fowler Portrait Lord Fowler
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to reduce the number of peers who are eligible to sit in the House of Lords.

Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the scrutiny and challenge role of the House of Lords is important, but the House has grown in size as introductions have increased faster than departures. The Government’s manifesto outlines several measures that could have the effect of reducing the size of the House. The first is the removal of hereditary Peers; further measures include retirement age and participation requirements. I am grateful for the debate that we had last month and the engagement of colleagues from across the House on these issues. I am keen to continue this ongoing dialogue about how best to implement these commitments.

Lord Fowler Portrait Lord Fowler (CB)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the noble Baroness the Leader of the House. If the aim of the Government is to reduce the size of the House, is not the most important action they can take to make an immediate commitment to follow a policy of restraint in making new appointments?

I agree with what I hope was the noble Baroness’s view that hereditary Peers make a big contribution to the work of this House. Against that, there are some appointed Peers who over the years have made little or no contribution to the House. They may be better candidates for removal than the hereditary Peers.

Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

First, I pay tribute to the noble Lord, who has been passionate on this issue for the same reason most of us are—we want an effective House that does the job it is charged with. His point about new appointments might have been better addressed to the last Government—I know he tried—because when the Labour Government left office after 12 years, we had 24 more Peers than the Opposition, but when the Conservatives left office they had 100 more Peers than the Labour Party. That difference between Government and Opposition, regardless of the parties, is too great. I am on record as saying that the House works better when the main party of government and of opposition have roughly equal numbers.

The noble Lord is absolutely right about participation, and I have been grateful to noble Lords from across the House who have suggested ways forward that we might look at. We will continue that dialogue on how we can have the most effective House possible, to ensure that it does the job it is here to do.

Lord Campbell-Savours Portrait Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Can Ministers consider the transition arrangements I have called for? They are: a core of 500 salaried voting Members; a further non-voting but otherwise participating group, declining in membership, who are allowance remunerated with some flexibility on age; and an additional, fully participating voting tier of 100, declining in numbers, available for ministerial appointment but free, on loss of office, to move to non-voting status. That transitional reform avoids much difficulty, protects much of today’s membership and potentially reduces costs and numbers, paving the way to a more comprehensive reform. Could it at least be considered?

Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The noble Lord has clearly thought long and hard about this subject. I am not sure I followed entirely every proposal he made, but I am grateful to noble Lords who have come forward with suggestions. I think the House would like something straightforward. I must admit that I am not convinced we should have Members of the House with different status, if that is what he was suggesting. I would like to feel that all Members of the House were treated equally.

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Portrait Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, why is the Minister bringing forward legislation to remove some of the hardest-working Members of the House, when over the last three years 157 Members have turned up less than 20% of the time and there are 21 on leave of absence, some for more than three years? Surely it would be better to take out people who make no contribution than to pick on those hereditaries who make a substantial contribution to this House.

On any day, even in the most controversial of circumstances, on average about 450 Members turn up, out of some 800. Is not the attempt to take out the hereditaries just a piece of gerrymandering by the Labour Party, which, we are told, already has a list of 30 would-be Peers coming to this House?

Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The noble Lord cannot resist it, can he? I do not think “taking people out” is quite the language we want to use in the House. As he knows, I have been trying to address across the House the point he makes on leave of absence. I previously proposed a limit on the number of leaves of absence a Member of this House can take without reference to the Sub-Committee on Leave of Absence. That did not find favour with the party opposite, but I still think it is a good thing to look at and I will take that away and look at leave absence.

This is not about doing anything to harm the Official Opposition. The noble Lord pulls a face at me, but if he is saying that his party cannot be an effective Opposition without hereditary Peers in the House, it says a lot about the rest of his Members. I do not agree with him; I think the party opposite is fully able to mount effective opposition. Even after the removal of all the hereditaries, his party will still be the largest party in this House.

Baroness Burt of Solihull Portrait Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The House of Lords badly needs radically updating if it is going to be a fit revising House for modern Britain. The Government seem to be starting with a piecemeal approach, so when the hereditaries are gone, would the next logical step not be to dispense with the Lords Spiritual, an equally anachronistic body who would otherwise stick out in this place like a sore thumb?

Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

This issue was raised in the House of Commons, and an amendment was tabled by a Conservative Member of Parliament to remove the Bishops. It got a very small vote in the Commons and was rejected; I have not detected an appetite for that in your Lordships’ House, either. On the noble Baroness’s more serious point about a piecemeal approach, we should have a proper discussion about moving forward. I am not one of those who wants a big bang reform—that is what led to inertia and no reform taking place. I think there is an appetite for gradual reform of this House.

Lord Watts Portrait Lord Watts (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, would it be a good idea to ask the Opposition—the Tory party—to reduce their numbers by 75% of those who have been jammed in over the past few years, to make it a bit more equal?

Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am sure the party opposite has heard my noble friend’s comments. I think 75% might be a bit harsh.

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the noble Baroness rightly sets store by her party’s manifesto. The Labour manifesto pledged:

“At the end of the Parliament in which a member reaches 80 years of age, they will be required to retire from the House of Lords.”


Full stop, end of paragraph. Will the Government implement this very specific manifesto promise in this Parliament?

Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, how and when we implement our manifesto is, as it is for every single party, a matter for the Government. One of the things I committed to this House is having discussions on how we implement 80; I said that in the first Answer. There is also the issue of participation. I think the House will want to have a view on those things, and I am happy to accept representations on how they are implemented.

Viscount Hailsham Portrait Viscount Hailsham (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, may I suggest that in future, Peers are appointed for a limited period, say 10 or 15 years?

Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, that was not the commitment in the Labour Party manifesto, but it has been raised with me by several noble Lords. There are different views across the House on that. I think the Burns report recommended 15 years, and another suggestion was 20 years. There is a choice for the House to make. I have not detected overall support for that. Partly, it has come about because much younger Peers have been appointed, and an appointment for life means that they are here for a very long time. The contrary to that is that hopefully, they will build up great expertise during their time here.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Portrait Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am over here on the right wing, for reasons I shall not go into. It is astonishing to hear the Opposition spokesman calling for retirement at 80: that means a whole swathe of the people opposite, as well as on this side, will go. Further to the point raised by the noble Lords, Lord Fowler and Lord Forsyth, whom I agree with, when I raised the question of participation in the debate last time, I mentioned the noble Lord, Lord Botham, whom we never see. I was then immediately attacked in the press by his daughter, who said that it is difficult for him to come down from the north-east of England. Well, if it is difficult from the north-east of England, it is a lot more difficult from Scotland, I can tell you that. We have Members from Orkney, and that is even more difficult. Can the Minister confirm that once we get rid of the hereditaries—and that needs to be done quickly—she will convene all-party discussions to look at all these questions, including that of participation?

Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to the noble Lord, and I remain grateful to him. He talks about a retirement age of 80. He knows—he was one of the first to mention it—that it is not 80 but the end of the Parliament in which somebody turns 80. We have been having discussions around the House, and I am grateful to noble Lords who have given me suggestions already. I do not want to dwell on individual Peers’ attendance, but we all want every Member to play a full role and be committed to the work of your Lordships’ House.

Private Low-carbon Investment: Green Finance Institute Report

Monday 9th December 2024

(3 days, 20 hours ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Question
15:09
Asked by
Lord Teverson Portrait Lord Teverson
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to respond to the Green Finance Institute’s report A Greenprint for Property Linked Finance in the UK, published in November, to accelerate private low-carbon investment into existing homes.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Portrait The Minister of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath) (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, we recognise the important role that private finance can play in helping us to achieve our decarbonisation ambitions. My officials have met the Green Finance Institute several times to discuss the potential for property-linked finance in a UK context. We will continue to work with industry stakeholders to explore options for working with the private sector, including banks and building societies, to scale up private finance to accelerate efforts in this area.

Lord Teverson Portrait Lord Teverson (LD)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I very much welcome those conversations that the Minister has had. As he knows, the way to bring down energy bills for families is to insulate their homes. Indeed, homes account for almost a quarter of carbon emissions. Perhaps the Minister could be a little more precise. These discussions can take a long time. The £6 billion, which I welcome, in the Government’s warm homes plan is just a small amount of the money that is needed to refurbish UK buildings. Given that legislation is often required to implement these schemes, can he give some sort of timetable of when bringing such private finance into this sector will happen?

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Portrait Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right that this is an important area of policy. We reckon that buildings account for 31% of total UK emissions, and heating is 75% of that proportion of emissions, so I very much take his point that there is an urgent need to make progress. I cannot give him an exact time. Looking at international experience of these kinds of schemes, it is not altogether positive. In the US experience, for instance, it may have worked for multi-occupational commercial properties but, for individuals, it does not seem to have made much progress.

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Portrait Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, does the Minister not share my disappointment that his Government have no plans to review the level of the warm homes discount? Given that there does not seem to be any urgency in renovating existing homes, will he use his good offices to put pressure on the Government to review the level of the warm homes discount? I refer to my interest as president of National Energy Action.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Portrait Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, this is the third time the noble Baroness has asked me this question in the last two weeks. I am afraid that we have not moved on from that position. On the warm homes plan, as she will know, we made it clear in the Budget that we will see a total investment of £3.2 billion in warmer homes across 2025-26. She is right that making progress in relation to energy-efficient homes is very important indeed.

Baroness Wheatcroft Portrait Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, while it is important to make sure that older homes are brought up to standard, does the Minister accept that there is merit in ensuring that all developments going ahead use heat pumps for the entire development? That works in areas of Germany. Will the Minister consider doing that?

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Portrait Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the noble Baroness is right to raise new homes but part of the issue we have is that we have the oldest housing stock in Europe and a third of our housing was built before World War II. As far as her question is concerned, I can tell her that the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government has indicated that it is working on future standards. These will set new homes and buildings on a path that moves away from relying on volatile fossil fuel markets and ensures that they are fit for a net-zero future. This is likely to see a mix of low-carbon technologies used for heating, including heat pumps and heat networks. Of course, the point the noble Baroness raises is an important one.

Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Minister raised international comparisons and learning from other countries. He also said—I cannot remember his exact words—that in the United States residential market, property-linked finance has not always been successful or well taken up. Can the Minister explain some of the reasons for that and what his department has learned from that experience in the United States residential market?

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Portrait Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, one of the issues is that home owners did not really understand what they were signing up to. In California, for instance, the state enacted a preservation and consumer protection Act, which led to an almost 90% decline in originations. More generally, the Green Deal that the coalition Government brought in shows some of the problems. First, the interest rates on offer were not sufficiently competitive; secondly, it was very complex to make an application; and, thirdly, there were lots of allegations of mis-selling. Given all that, the Government withdrew it. We need to learn a lot of lessons if we are going to make progress.

It is thought that currently owners are deterred from making a major investment in energy-efficiency improvements because they do not expect to live in the home for a sufficient length of time to get the money back through energy efficiency. The whole point about the GFI proposal is for longer-term loans that are assigned to the property, to keep interest rates low and give people a much better opportunity to make this investment.

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Portrait Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, in an earlier Question your Lordships’ House was talking about vocational training and education. However it is funded, can the Minister assure me that ensuring we have the vocational skills and the building skills needed for home insulation is of the highest priority to the Government? That is crucial for the climate, for the health of the nation and for saving households money.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Portrait Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I cannot really respond better than by saying that my noble friend answered the point thoroughly. We at the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero keep a close eye on skills needs. In fact, the whole energy sector has great potential for growth in really high-skilled jobs in the future. Since 2021 the department has invested over £28 million in skills and training, which has resulted in 33,000 training opportunities in retrofit, clean heat and energy efficiency roles. I take the noble Baroness’s point and we keep this issue under very close review.

Earl Russell Portrait Earl Russell (LD)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, cold homes drive up ill health, our energy bills and our emissions. At least one-fifth of the UK’s CO2 emissions come from home heating and our homes are some of the worst insulated in western Europe, with 27 million of our homes needing to be retrofitted. Does the Minister agree that property-linked finance makes sense? I ask him to look at it in relation to heat pumps, particularly with a view to bringing in enabling legislation and pilot programmes so that the Government can find the schemes that really work.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Portrait Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I agree with the premise of the challenge that we face. We responded positively, as do I, to the proposals made by the Green Finance Institute, which is why we are working on this seriously and discussing it with it, and we will be looking at the outcome of the pilots in commercial properties that the GFI is going to take forward in the next few months. But I have to point out to the House that this is not easy. Current experience suggests that unless you can ensure that a scheme is easy for people to understand and know what they are getting themselves into, and can offer competitive interest rates, it is not going to fly. We need to make this a credible scheme.

Lord Jamieson Portrait Lord Jamieson (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I refer to my interests as set out in the register. How do the Government plan to balance the drive for low-carbon homes with the risks of increasing housing costs or creating barriers for those already struggling in the housing market?

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Portrait Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, that is an interesting question. Clearly, one issue about taking forward such a scheme is that one does not want to make it difficult for people to sell their homes. Again, I suggest that evidence from the US shows that, although the intention was for the charge to stay with the property, when it came to individuals, many sellers wiped off the charge to make the sale realisable. We need to keep a careful eye on ensuring that if we introduce such a scheme we do not have a negative impact on the housing market in the way the noble Lord has suggested.

Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate Portrait Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I have asked several Questions recently in connection with solar panels, particularly solar farms, which occupy good agricultural land in this country. Surely the Government can do more to encourage the installation of solar panels, both on domestic properties and, more particularly, on industrial properties, where there are large roof spaces available for solar panels. Would that not be a much better idea?

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Portrait Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I very much take the noble Lord’s suggestions. We have seen a big expansion in solar; we could see more. I agree with him about industrial sites, but we also need ground-based solar, and the fact is that, even if we achieved all our ambitions around solar, it would take a very small percentage of agricultural land to provide it.

Business of the House

Monday 9th December 2024

(3 days, 20 hours ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Motion on Standing Orders
15:20
Moved by
Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

That Standing Order 38(1) (Arrangement of the Order Paper) be dispensed with on Wednesday 11 December to enable the second reading of the House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill to begin before oral questions.

Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, in moving this Motion, I thought it would be useful to set out for the House how proceedings on Wednesday will work. We will sit at 11 am to start the Second Reading of the House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill. We will pause proceedings around 1 pm. The House will then sit at 3 pm for Oral Questions in the normal way. We will then resume the Second Reading of the Bill and complete it that day. Currently, we expect that the advisory speaking time for Back-Bench contributions to the Second Reading will be five minutes. We will advertise the final advisory time in the usual way when the list closes at 6 pm this evening. I beg to move.

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Portrait Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, does the Minister really think it appropriate that, for a major constitutional change of the kind that is proposed in the Bill, we should be limited to five minutes? Of course, Members of the House will realise that that is advisory, so we may be sitting very late indeed.

Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the advisory time is based on the number of Members speaking. It is advisory out of courtesy to the whole House. Looking at other debates of a similar nature and time, I am confident that the House can make its views known in that time.

Viscount Hailsham Portrait Viscount Hailsham (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, following what my noble friend has just said, would it not have been better to have had a two-day debate? I declare an interest: alas, because of professional engagements, I cannot get here at 11 am, and I had hoped to participate in the Second Reading debate. A two-day debate would have been altogether preferable.

Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am sorry about that; I would have welcomed the noble Viscount’s contribution. However, he will appreciate that two days are sometimes difficult for other colleagues. This was agreed, via the usual channels, with the Chief Whip’s Office.

Motion agreed.

Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2024

Monday 9th December 2024

(3 days, 20 hours ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Contracts for Difference (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2024
Motions to Approve
15:22
Moved by
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Portrait Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

That the draft Order and Regulations laid before the House on 21 and 28 October be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 2 December.

Motions agreed.
Committee (4th Day)
15:23
Relevant document: 8th Report from the Delegated Powers Committee
Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, as we begin day 4 of Committee on the Football Governance Bill, we have an ambitious target today and I urge all noble Lords to work together to achieve it. I particularly draw the Committee’s attention to the front page of today’s lists from the Government Whips’ Office and all the reminders about speaking times, which were agreed by the House last year. I remind the Committee of that and we expect noble Lords to work together to make progress to that ambitious target; we need to get to it today.

Lord Harris of Haringey Portrait Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, before my noble friend sits down, the rubric states quite clearly the expectations that there are on Members of the House. Those are of course maximum time limits, not targets to be aimed for, but the document also says that Members

“should not summarise or repeat at length points made by others, and if speaking more than once a Member should not repeat points they have already made”.

I have already sat through a couple of hours of this Committee and heard that done repeatedly. Will the usual channels intervene if people deviate from the subject or are repetitious, and therefore ask them to sit down?

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my noble friend for that. I hope that we will not need to intervene, but the Whips on the government Bench will certainly intervene if necessary. I ask all noble Lords to read the points on Committee stage, which were agreed by the House. We do not want repetition; we want proper scrutiny, with progress made today on the Bill. We have a number of groups to get through, but it is perfectly achievable in the time.

Baroness Fookes Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I suggest that we now begin.

Clause 6: The IFR’s objectives

Amendment 51

Moved by
51: Clause 6, page 5, line 9, leave out “protect and promote” and insert “monitor and where necessary intervene to safeguard”
Lord Hayward Portrait Lord Hayward (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, Amendment 51 stands in the name of my noble friend Lord Maude of Horsham. He has asked me to move it because he is, unfortunately, unavailable on this occasion. Perhaps I might observe that, out of the 300-plus amendments, some 120-plus of them come from the Government’s own Back Benches.

This amendment deals with an area which I have touched on on a number of occasions during debate on the Bill’s clauses and subsections: the financial impact that it will have on the different leagues. They are not named in the Bill, but we all know which ones we are talking about.

I am particularly interested to be talking to Amendment 51 on the basis of the Prime Minister’s own Damascene conversion—if I can refer to Syria as being the place in the public eye at the moment—to avoiding, where possible, impositions on the private sector by regulation. He commented on that in his speech last Thursday. It would appear that he is now of the view that regulation should be kept to a minimum, or that the Civil Service—I specifically exclude the civil servants advising the Minister, who have been very helpful throughout—is providing a “tepid bath” of steady decline. I think those were the Prime Minister’s words. Other Ministers have then been sent out to clarify on the matter, one of whom today described it as an attempt to take the approach of a start-up. Well, my noble friend Lord Markham has identified how to aim to start up and the funding needed when one actually takes that approach, which may not be conducive to the overall approach outlined in the Bill for football regulation.

15:30
The other matter on which I have touched at different points is the importance of ensuring that the Premier League in particular and English football overall should be able to adjust in what is a highly competitive world. Last week we saw something of which, I will be honest, I was unaware—that football’s Club World Cup is to take place next year. It involves 32 clubs from right around the world, only two of which are English: Chelsea and Manchester City. It will take place in June and July next year and will inevitably impinge on the football structure in England. Therefore, we have to ensure that any football regulator acts in a manner that takes cognisance of developments that I have identified, not only in sport in general but in football, because in those six weeks, in the period when the football season is not normally taking place in this country, it will be taking place throughout the United States. It is relevant that players who are participating on behalf of English clubs will naturally want some form of respite in one form or another when they come back from the tournament, at whatever point their participation ends.
My noble friend has proposed the changes to Clause 6, on line 9 of page 5, which would follow the elements of scrutiny that I have raised on a number of occasions—to
“leave out ‘protect and promote’ and insert ‘monitor and where necessary intervene to safeguard’”.
He then has Amendment 52 as well. Under those circumstances, it is relevant, as I have said persistently, to ensure that there is clear identification of the impact on the clubs, more specifically than saying that this will be proportionate. We need to adopt a frame of mind that ensures that the regulator is acting beneficially to football in general and not imposing undue burdens on our clubs that are not faced by other clubs around the world, with whom we will have to compete not only in tournaments, to which I have just referred, but for television rights and international funds. Without that frame of mind, we will not have a Premier League of which we can be rightly proud. With those opening comments, I beg to move my noble friend Lord Maude’s amendment.
Lord Jackson of Peterborough Portrait Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I will speak to my Amendment 57 in this first group. I am delighted to see the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, in his place and I appreciate his cameo role in this Committee. I had not noticed him here for most of the deliberations of the Committee, but we welcome him anyway.

This is a probing amendment to press the Government on how much intervention they envisage the regulator pursuing in the internal financial affairs of clubs. It is a probing amendment because we on this side seek to solicit from the Minister more precise details, which are not in the Bill, about how much she and the Government envisage the independent football regulator having a part to play in the technical minutiae of the finances of each club.

Because of the nature of the Bill and the wide-ranging powers under its Henry VIII clauses, we simply do not know the degree of interference in those 116 clubs. For instance, will a club be required periodically to enunciate its liquidity requirements on a quarterly, half-yearly or annual basis? What debt cap rules will they have? What player acquisition and sales issues will the regulator become involved in?

Importantly, there are also the decisions taken by the boards of the 116 football clubs around land and property, which are covered elsewhere in the Bill but relate to this amendment—where they play and what contractual arrangements they may have with landowners on a rental, leasehold or freehold basis. Will the regulator be prescriptive about which banking arrangements, and with which organisations, each club is free to enter into?

These are important issues. This Committee’s effective scrutiny requires more insight from the Government into the regulator’s intentions regarding financial regulation, not least because other non-departmental public bodies already have significant powers and the capacity to intervene directly in what are, in effect, small and medium-sized enterprises and significant, big businesses turning over large amounts of money. There are the Financial Conduct Authority, the Competition and Markets Authority and His Majesty’s Revenue & Customs, and local authorities have widespread powers to intervene in the everyday activities of the clubs contained within their local government areas. There are also various companies Acts, such as the Companies Act 2006 and that of 2016, that are within the bailiwick of the interface between government and football clubs.

As we asked on the sweeping powers over raising finance, and since the Bill does not expand on this, is Parliament not being asked to write a blank cheque to allow the Government to regulate as they wish? Not just the Premier League but clubs in other leagues are most concerned about this because of the nature of this legislation. Will the Minister address the concerns of each of those clubs about the powers of the regulator potentially to interfere in each club’s everyday financial affairs?

Baroness Brady Portrait Baroness Brady (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I refer the Committee to my interests declared in the register. I support Amendment 71 tabled by my noble friend Lord Markham, which raises a crucial point regarding the backstop mechanism. We must be clear at the outset about what this mechanism governs and, critically, what it does not.

First, it is vital to understand that the backstop is categorically not about the fair apportionment of collective football revenues. Each party—the Premier League and the EFL—has its own central broadcast revenues. Indeed, the EFL has just secured a landmark five-year domestic broadcasting deal worth nearly £1 billion, increasing its central revenues by 50% from next season. This is testament to the Championship’s growing competitiveness and appeal.

I will not dwell on the fact that many of its recipients are incredibly wealthy—I believe there are nine billionaire owners in the Championship, along with many other extremely well-funded ownership groups—but I will dwell on the fact that, despite its very healthy income, the EFL does not give any money to the National League. It gives no funding to the leagues directly below it. It is the Premier League that supports the National League. Far from some sort of neutral arbitration to allow all parties to share with each other, the backstop is in fact a mechanism for the forcible redirection of billions of pounds of Premier League revenue only. In other words, this is one set of private businesses handing over money to another competing set, even if they do not want to give more than the £1.6 billion they already do and it damages their ability to compete.

The critical point, therefore, is that this backstop mechanism represents a completely unprecedented and untested intervention in what are the private commercial rights of Premier League clubs only. It impacts uniquely on Premier League clubs. The gravity and novelty of such an intervention demands the most careful consideration. Crucially, the backstop introduces a major and radical change in the Bill: the inclusion of parachute payments. This decision was taken without adequate consultation with Premier League clubs.

I mentioned earlier in Committee that just seven out of 20 clubs were invited to a 30-minute meeting on the Bill with the Secretary of State between the Government taking office in July and the decision, which was taken in October. It is no surprise that this lack of consultation has produced such a reckless decision. There simply cannot have been an appropriate understanding by the Government of its potential consequences.

Parachute payments are not a financial convenience; they are a cornerstone of the Premier League’s competitive balance. Without them, clubs cannot plan for long-term investment, or the stability required to maintain the intense competitiveness that is the hallmark of the Premier League and a significant driver of its global appeal. Parachutes are also—this is an often-overlooked point—a key part of the financial incentives for Championship clubs to invest in that league, knowing that if they reach the promised land, it will not all be undone with one bad year.

To fundamentally alter this system risks undermining the very factors that have made the Premier League such a global success and one of the UK’s greatest soft power assets. Potentially harming the magic ingredient of the Premier League’s competitive balance threatens to destabilise long-term commitments, jeopardising investment in lower-league stadiums, academies and community programmes. I believe it would fundamentally undermine the Championship, too.

We should also consider the concerns raised by UEFA. It has warned that the backstop mechanism could disrupt the balance of power in football governance and negatively affect the competitive equilibrium in both domestic and European competitions. UEFA has urged the Government to carefully reconsider their approach, emphasising that mandating redistribution in this way risks deterring amicable solutions and the very investments that underpin the success of English football.

This unprecedented intervention into private commercial rights must be carefully scrutinised. It very obviously has a differential and disproportionate impact on the clubs within the Premier League. It is also clear that the consequences of this seismic and deeply flawed intervention have not been fully understood. We do, as UEFA has said, need to reconsider this critical issue.

Lord Markham Portrait Lord Markham (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I rise to speak to my amendment to Clause 71 on financial redistribution, and to add to the very valuable points made by my noble friend Lady Brady.

What the Bill seeks to do—which I have not seen in relation to any other regulator in the UK—is to give the regulator unprecedented powers to take money from one part of the sector or certain companies and give it to another. In any other field, this would be unheard of. Can you imagine the FCA saying, “I think HSBC should give some money to Barclays”? Can you imagine Ofwat saying to Severn Trent, “Thames Water is having a bit of a hard time, can you help it out”? Can you imagine Ofcom saying that Sky should help ITV out where advertising revenues are going down? That is unheard of among regulators.

I value the days in Committee as there is such knowledge around the House, so I would love it if any noble Lord could come up with an example of where a regulator has got the power to take away money from a part of the sector or company and give it to another. I would love to hear it.

Lord Goddard of Stockport Portrait Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

On the noble Lord’s point, can he explain to me what happened to the banks when the financial crash came and they ran out of money, or the money was disappearing? Who stepped up then and financed all the banks? The Government did. That was an example of rebalancing and ensuring that the money supply could keep going throughout—that is why they did it.

This Bill will ensure that the rest of the pyramid can survive and carry on. One document I read today says that in 2022-23,

“20 members of the Premier League and five … in the EFL … received 92% of the distributable”

wealth—£3 billion—while

“the other 67 professional clubs”

got £245 million. Is that fair?

Lord Markham Portrait Lord Markham (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

That goes right to the heart of this conversation. I can point out loads of industries where there are only one or two top companies. Think of the share of the search revenue that Google has. Is that fair? Is it the role of a regulator to get involved and say, “Oh, Google, you should give some money to Bing, because it’s not doing that well”? That is exactly my point.

The noble Lord made a point about the banking sector. The Government stepped in there because they felt that there were wider consequences for the whole economy. They stepped in; they did not say, “Barclays, you should give some money to HSBC”. What we are talking about here is fundamentally different. It is a different set of regulatory powers that I do not think anyone has seen—

15:45
Lord Bassam of Brighton Portrait Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We are talking here about a fundamentally different thing: the football pyramid and its sustainability. That is what this Bill is about. The question from the noble Lord, Lord Goddard, was entirely fair. Is it fair that the top 20 Premier League members and the top five clubs in the Championship get 92% of the television revenues generated, when it is the whole of the football world, in a sense, that helps generate those revenues? I do not think it is fair, and I want to hear the noble Lord, Lord Markham, comment on its fairness or otherwise.

Lord Markham Portrait Lord Markham (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Is it fair that Federer, Djokovic and Murray earned so much in their time? Did Wimbledon not need all the players to take part for it to be so valuable? Is it fair that Verstappen has won the championship four or five times in a row and is earning far more than everyone else? That is about sporting competitiveness—or competitiveness in anything. It is not the role of a regulator to start to redistribute income; I believe fervently that we will then get the law of unintended consequences.

My noble friend Lady Brady talked about parachute payments. This weekend was a perfect example of why the Premier League is the most popular league in the world. Crystal Palace held Man City to a draw. Can you believe that Crystal Palace—fourth from the bottom, right on the edge of being relegated—would have invested that much in players if they knew that, if they got relegated, they would lose all that money and face almost financial ruin in the Championship without it? I do not think so. I think a regulator would have said, “Oh, Palace, it’s not very sustainable having all that money when you could go down”. That would fundamentally alter the competitiveness of those games. That is the value of the Premier League. People will tune in, because they know that it will not be a walkover between Palace and City in this example; they know that it will be a competitive game.

Countries all over the world are prepared to pay more money than anyone else to see these games because they are competitive. Take the Bundesliga or the Italian or Spanish leagues: there are two or three top clubs and then a lot of also-rans, so it is not competitive in the same way. That is the danger we face here. By allowing regulators to redistribute income, on the basis that it is not fair that the top clubs are getting more, you will alter the whole competitiveness of the structure. Again, we say that it is not fair, but is it fair that the Championship is the sixth wealthiest in the world, while the Premier League is the wealthiest? Why is that? First, it gets a lot of payments down from the Premier League as part of voluntary arrangements. Secondly, it is because of how the whole of football has been set up for clubs to be promoted: money is being invested to give them a chance.

We have all said many times that this is our number one industry worldwide—there is no doubt whatever about that. We then have the second tier, which is number six worldwide. There is nothing else like that, and I believe we are at risk of putting that whole system under threat if we meddle in these ways.

Lord Pannick Portrait Lord Pannick (CB)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I declare an interest, having acted recently for Manchester City in relation to the charges by the Premier League. I put it to the noble Lord that the system he and the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, portray of Premier League clubs having the normal activity of a commercial company that can to do what it likes is simply incorrect. The Premier League itself imposes considerable restraints via financial fair play on what companies can spend and how they use their money. It does that because this is a sport, and the effectiveness of the sport depends on competitive constraints. What the regulator may or may not do is simply an aspect of that. The world that the noble Lord portrays simply does not exist.

Lord Markham Portrait Lord Markham (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the noble Lord. He makes a very strong point, which is that the current system of regulation for Premier League clubs, and the EFL doing it for its clubs, seeks absolutely to set up that competitive environment and those financial fair play rules. My point supports what the noble Lord said: there already is a system of checks and balances, which is working well and making sure that our English Premier League is the first in the world and the Championship is the sixth. Why do we need a regulator coming in between that?

I perfectly accept that there are certain things that the regulator is important for, such as the breakaway league, but is it really the best place to start to have financial distribution from one club to another? That is why I brought this amendment forward. We are fundamentally asking a regulator to do something that we have not asked any other regulator to do in the whole of the economic environment. I thank noble Lords for their interventions; they have added to the debate. I look forward to discussing this further.

Briefly, my other amendments, Amendments 126 and 130, again try to ensure that we do not get mission creep, that we are quite clear about the information the regulator should be asking for from the clubs, and that we cannot set up a regulator that is allowed to go on a complete fishing trip in a lot of these areas. The amendments would set out what information the regulator can ask for from clubs and what they should provide in their strategic business plans, so that we are all clear about that without an endless list that goes on and on. Again, I speak in the context not just of the large clubs; a lot of these are very small clubs, without a large amount of resource to reply to lots of information requests. We need to be quite clear about what we are asking the regulator to do.

I hope this has contributed to the debate. I hope noble Lords will reflect on the fact that we are asking the regulator to do more than we do in any other sector—in our most successful sector too—and whether that is wise.

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I speak in favour of these amendments, which would enhance the regulator’s approach. I particularly support Amendments 51 and 52, in the name of my noble friend Lord Maude. The language change may appear subtle—to replace “protect and promote” with

“monitor and where necessary intervene to safeguard”—

in the IFR’s objectives, but the implications for the regulator’s behaviour would be important.

The Minister has said several times in our previous debates that she believes the regulator’s approach should be proportionate. That is welcome, but I am concerned that the current wording of the objectives does not fully support that intention. We have discussed overregulation at length, and the potential for it is clear, particularly as we do not have a counterbalancing growth or success duty to guard against such an approach.

It is important to remember that most clubs, at all levels of the game, are well run. There is no justification for an overly risk-averse set of financial rules that can dampen investment and threaten our hard-won global leadership position, or for infrastructure investments that drive long-term value to be second-guessed. We can guard against such unnecessary interference and regulatory creep. My noble friend Lord Maude’s suggested wording could provide an underpinning for a more proportionate approach. It would recognise that most clubs manage their affairs responsibly and that football’s existing structures in the main work effectively, but would allow for targeted regulatory intervention for genuine issues that have been identified and where it becomes very clear that IFR action is necessary.

The systemic resilience objective requires particularly careful consideration, as we must set an appropriately high bar for macro-level interventions that may fundamentally change how football works. Changing this objective to one to intervene where resilience is “substantially threatened” would properly frame the backstop power as a true emergency brake. As the Minister herself said, it should not be a routine tool.

This matters hugely. As we have heard already in discussions in Committee, the football pyramid depends hugely on the Premier League’s commercial success. Constant intervention risk in a readily available backstop would create exactly the kind of uncertainty we do not want to see that could damage long-term investment. We must make sure that the backstop power genuinely is an “in case of emergency only” tool.

The commercial confidentiality provisions tabled by my noble friend on the Front Bench are equally important. As we know, football clubs compete internationally for players, commercial partnerships and broadcast value. Forcing the detailed disclosure of business strategies or commercially sensitive information could damage clubs’ ability to operate effectively in these markets.

This group of amendments is about ensuring that the regulator enhances rather than inhibits what makes English football successful: genuine competition, where well-run clubs can thrive through strong management, innovation and calculated ambition. Once again, we are talking about a set of changes that could provide the regulator with a lighter-touch, proportionate model of regulation. I hope the Minister will give them some serious consideration.

Lord Addington Portrait Lord Addington (LD)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, it might be convenient if I say a few words now. I remind the Committee that many of the people taking part today do not like regulation. I have heard that—a lot. I have a bad short-term memory because I am dyslexic, and I have got the message very clearly, so can we just leave it there?

The aim of the Bill is to create a sound framework for football. Even if you do not think those at the top are in trouble, everybody is agreed that, periodically, the other bits look as though they are going to collapse and fall away, or will have to be replaced, as well as all the little local dramas going on. That has been going on for decades, and we have all heard it.

We are going to have a regulator. The worst type of regulator is one that stands back and does not intervene until it is too late, and has to go in with a heavy hand. We want a regulator that we know will intervene and, as I put it at Second Reading, bite hard enough to leave a scar; a body that will actually do something and let people know that there will be consequences for not complying with the regulation. That is what the Bill is about—and what it has been about since the first version. I hope that we can progress on the line that we are trying to make the regulator work properly, and that we do not have too much repetition of points that have already been made.

Lord Hannan of Kingsclere Portrait Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Markham’s Amendment 71. It was criticised from all the other Benches on grounds of fairness. I just want to interrogate slightly what the critics mean when they say that this regulator will make things fairer.

We are famously a fair-minded people—you can always appeal to a Brit’s sense of fair play—but the word can be ambiguous. Does it mean equity, merit or need? Suppose that the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton, and I were to buy a cake together, and he spent £3 on it and I spent £2. What would be the fair distribution? Would it be a 60:40 distribution—in other words, dependent on what we had put in? Would it be 50:50? Would it depend on which of us looked hungrier—in other words, based on need? Sometimes these things are all merged together.

I find that, in politics, the word is a kind of boast; it is used to mean, “Look at me: I am a nice, caring person”. It is a way of signalling your decency: “Mirror, mirror on the wall, who’s the fairest of them all?” When applied to this particular case, we are in danger of entering into a kind of Atlas Shrugged world, where we politicians and state regulators decide what is fair, rather than leaving it to those most involved.

The noble Lord, Lord Addington, says that we want a regulator that can bite and leave scars. I would rather not have the scars. I would rather have our extremely successful football system unscarred. He added that it existed for decades without regulation, which I think tells us something. I accept that we have lost that argument and will get some kind of regulator, but I appeal to the Government, at least on the other amendments in this group.

The Minister, at Second Reading and again at the start of Committee, repeatedly said that she wanted the scope of the regulator to be restricted, and I do not for a second doubt her sincerity. We also have heard lots of people on all sides already trying to extend its scope—not to limit and circumscribe it but quite the opposite. Indeed, if we look down the list of some of these amendments, we see that, even before it has come into law, people are saying that it needs to apply to women’s games, we need regulations on diversity of ticket holders, and so on.

16:00
Which of those is likely to happen? Will we have a limited and circumscribed Bill, where the regulator will have only the powers given to it in a strict way, or will it extend its power over time? We all know how regulators in this country operate. I do not think there has ever been a regulator that reduces its power voluntarily over time. For that reason, it is worth setting out now in Committee, in terms, what some of these restrictions are. We need to say some of the things that the regulator will expressly not be allowed to do. It is no good just saying “That wasn’t in the Bill”, because we know that is not how regulators operate. It is a little bit like the Bill of Rights to the US constitution; you need to say, “Just for the avoidance of doubt, these things are not in the power of the regulator”. If it is too much to insert that into the legislation, it would be very nice at least to hear it from the Front Bench officially, so that that can be referred back to when the time comes.
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Portrait Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I speak to Amendments 51 and 52 in the name of my noble friend Lord Maude of Horsham—I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Hayward for moving Amendment 51 on his behalf—and to Amendment 57 in the name of my noble friend Lord Jackson of Peterborough, and then Amendments 71, 126 and 130 in the name of my noble friend Lord Markham. To those final three, I have also added my name.

The amendments in this group seek to restrict some of the wider powers granted to the new independent football regulator in the Bill as presently drafted. Amendments 51 and 52 would alter the fundamental objectives of the regulator. As drafted, the Bill states that the objectives of the regulator include

“to protect and promote the financial soundness of regulated clubs”,

and

“to protect and promote the financial resilience of English football”.

In essence, that is both a specific objective, directed at clubs themselves, and a general objective, which applies to English football as a whole. Leaving aside the important question of what constitutes English football—which we have already debated but not yet had much success in ascertaining—and indeed the question of what the Government mean by “financial soundness” and “financial resilience”, my noble friend Lord Maude of Horsham has sought through his amendments to probe the Government’s intention to set the regulator’s objective as being to protect and to promote. In place of those words, my noble friend proposes the alternative description,

“monitor and where necessary intervene”.

His amendment thus addresses the core question of how activist a regulator we want. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Hannan of Kingsclere for underlining that point in his contribution. I look forward to the Minister’s response both to the amendments and to that that core argument. That is, I think, what Members of the Committee have been probing in this group.

Clearly, as drafted, the Bill sets the independent football regulator an active objective to protect and promote English football. That objective is necessarily continuous and seemingly proactive. It could be taken by the regulator to require constant involvement, giving rise once again to the concerns that the Committee has raised about excessive activity and mission creep. By contrast, a lighter-touch duty to monitor the financial soundness of clubs and the financial resilience of English football could allow clubs to get on with their ultimate objective of winning competitions without the overbearing and excessive involvement of this new regulator. I was struck that my noble friend’s amendment is explicit that the regulator’s objective would involve active intervention only “where necessary”. That is a helpful formulation and discipline when drafting legislation.

The question these amendments pose to the Committee, therefore, is whether we want an active, interventionist and potentially overbearing regulator, which might run the risk of getting in the way of our world-class football clubs; or a vigilant, diligent but ultimately careful regulator, which has a duty to stay its hand and intervene only when necessary. I have stretched from teeth to hands in extending the metaphor used by the noble Lord, Lord Addington; I agree that the regulator must have teeth and must be seen to have them. We would like to see those teeth bared from time to time, and to hear them gnashing but, like my noble friend Lord Hannan of Kingsclere, I would rather not see the scars from those teeth on world-class and highly successful businesses and clubs too often.

We have to strike the right balance to make sure that we have a regulator that commands the respect that it needs to, without biting too often and too damagingly. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s thoughts on where to draw the line, both in the legislation and the words that we have, and on what the Government hope the Bill will bring about for the regulator.

Amendment 57, tabled by my noble friend Lord Jackson of Peterborough, places a prohibition on the regulator from intervening in the internal financial affairs of regulated clubs. His amendment allows us to consider an important issue, on which a number of noble Lords touched. I know that my noble friend feels very strongly about the possibility of this regulator hampering the ability of clubs to operate as the successful businesses that they are at present, so I welcome his attempt to see whether there is a sensible way of placing some restrictions or limitations on the role that the regulator might play.

As I made clear from Second Reading onwards, we support the establishment of this regulator. We recognise that specific market failures have been raised and recognised, both by fans during the fan-led review and by the previous Government’s work, which helped to inform this Bill’s precursor. The ability of the regulator to have at least some role in regulating the finances of clubs will, I hope, allow it to attempt to address the problems that have been identified. However, we again want to make sure that it does not do so in a way that damages the successful businesses that they are.

Amendment 71 is in the name of my noble friend Lord Markham, and I put my name to it as well. It seeks to prevent the regulator from transferring funds from one private club to another. Mindful of the Government Chief Whip’s entreaties, I do not wish to repeat my noble friend’s argument, so I merely pose a question to the Minister: are there any circumstances in which she and the Government feel that a transfer would be appropriate? If there are no circumstances that she can envisage and set out, what are the problems with embracing my noble friend’s amendment?

I will also say something about my noble friend’s Amendment 126, which seeks to strike out Clause 16(3)(c). That provision of the Bill allows the regulator to require clubs to provide any “such other information”, as the regulator decides in its rules, when those clubs are applying for their provisional licences. Once again, those rules are not set out in the Bill, but are to be determined at a later date so, as clubs are planning their financial affairs for the near future and beginning their preparations for the licensing regime that will be ushered in once the Bill gains Royal Assent, they will not know what information they will be required to provide to the regulator. All we have in the Bill is a vague requirement that they must produce a “personnel statement” and a “strategic business plan”, but there is no further information here and paragraph (c) seems to allow the regulator to request anything that it may choose. That is a distinct lack of clarity for clubs, and I would be grateful for the Minister’s view on whether we can add to that clarity by being more precise.

Finally, Amendment 130, also in the name of my noble friend Lord Markham, would prevent the regulator from requiring information that is not specified in the Bill to be included in a club’s strategic business plan. The current drafting of the Bill grants the regulator a concerningly wide power to require clubs to include

“such other information as may be specified by the IFR in rules”.

This is yet another example of a lack of clarity in the Bill, and I am grateful to my noble friend for highlighting it. Where there is a lack of clarity regarding the regulator’s duties, there is uncertainty for the party that is to be regulated. It seems regrettable that the clubs should not get the clarity that they need about their duties under this part of the Bill but must wait until the regulator has published its rules in due course. Can the Minister give us a flavour of the kind of information requirements that the Government think that the regulator might be likely to include in its rules? Is that something that the Government have discussed with those who are preparing the regulator’s work in this area? Can she elaborate on this for the Committee’s understanding? I am grateful to her and to noble Lords who have spoken on this group.

Lord Pannick Portrait Lord Pannick (CB)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, it is important to remember that Premier League clubs are already extensively regulated by the rules of the Premier League. The problem is that those rules are made by the 20 Premier League clubs themselves. They are also regulated, as all football is regulated, by UEFA. I gave the example a few moments ago of financial fair play. The virtue of the Government’s proposals surely is that the regulation will be by an independent person. That is what is required. The defects of all the proposed amendments in this group would be simply to confine the discretion of the independent regulator to respond to circumstances as they arise.

Baroness Twycross Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Twycross) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Maude of Horsham, Lord Jackson of Peterborough and Lord Markham, for these amendments, and the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, for introducing this group. I particularly welcome the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, which reminds us of why we are here.

Starting with Amendments 51 and 52, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Maude of Horsham, I understand that their aim is to clarify that the regulator should only intervene where necessary and in response to substantial risks. I assure the noble Lord that this aim is already appropriately achieved by the Bill. As the noble Lord, Lord Addington, said—and apologies if I paraphrase this incorrectly—this is about ensuring a sound financial basis for football. It will be for the regulator to identify risks to a club’s financial soundness or the financial resilience of the system and to act accordingly. It would be disproportionate and unreasonable for the regulator to intervene where it did not think that the benefits of doing so would outweigh any costs imposed. The Explanatory Notes to this clause make clear that, in the advancement of its systemic financial resilience objective, the regulator

“will identify, monitor and if necessary take action to mitigate systemic risks in order to protect the aggregate financial sustainability and resilience of English football”.

However, we reject the notion that the regulator should be able to act only once risks have become so severe that they substantially threaten the system. The noble Lord, Lord Goddard of Stockport, mentioned the banking crisis; the amendment under discussion could be argued to be equivalent to a financial services regulator noticing sub-prime lending and credit default swap trading in 2007 but not being able to intervene until Lehman Brothers collapsed in 2008. Instead, the regulator should be able proactively to mitigate risks when they are identified. We believe that “protect and promote” appropriately conveys this, to ensure a future forward-looking regulator. However, I reassure your Lordships’ House that this does not mean that the regulator will be placing undue restrictions on clubs, pre-empting risks that have not yet materialised.

Turning to Amendment 57 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Jackson of Peterborough, I am afraid that the noble Lord’s amendment is at odds with the aims and objective of the regulator. It undermines the very intention of a Bill that had the support of all three main political parties at the election less than three months ago. Indeed, the shadow Secretary of State in the other place has stated:

“I genuinely think that this is an excellent Bill”.—[Official Report, Commons, 23/5/24; col. 244.]


We are looking to set up a predominantly financial regulator. Stopping the regulator from taking any action relating to a club’s internal finances would defeat that purpose. The regulator’s statutory mandate is to deliver its objective; it will achieve these aims using only the powers given to it in statute, such as the licensing regime and the owners’ and directors’ test. The regulator would, therefore, not become involved in the club’s finances, unless it thought that the action would lead to it delivering its objectives. Its powers place clear limits on the extent to which it can require things of clubs.

16:15
The noble Baroness, Lady Evans of Bowes Park, expressed concerns about well-run clubs. I reassure her that well-run clubs should have little intervention from the regulator. If the regulator has overstretched and is acting outside its statutory remit, there is a comprehensive appeals regime to address this.
The noble Lord, Lord Jackson of Peterborough, asked about powers to act on a club’s finances. The regulator’s financial regulation powers are aimed at ensuring financial stability. If a club lacks sufficient financial resilience, the IFR may require a club to improve its financial resources. This might include building liquid assets and providing greater assurances on owners’ funding or outgoings. These should be applied proportionately and only where necessary.
The noble Lord, Lord Jackson, also asked about player transactions. The regulator cannot interfere with individual player transactions. I hope that gives the noble Lord some reassurance.
In response to the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, and others, regarding Amendment 71 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Markham, let me be clear that the backstop process will apply only to revenue received by the leagues. This is already explicit in the Clause 56 definition of relevant revenue. It does not allow the regulator to include individual club revenue that is not relevant for distribution agreements, for example, from shirt sales. This amendment is therefore not necessary to ensure that; rather, this amendment would call into question the regulator’s powers under the backstop process. Although the process is about resolving distribution disputes between the leagues, not individual clubs, the money received by the leagues is ultimately distributed to their members clubs. This amendment would cast doubt on the regulator’s ability to effectively deploy the backstop, even when requested to do so as a last resort by the leagues and where it considers it cannot deliver its objectives.
The noble Lord, Lord Hannan of Kingsclere, asked about fairness; and there was also a discussion from the noble Lord, Lord Markham, about businesses being required to give away their cash. The Premier League itself recognises that financial redistribution is needed to ensure the solidarity of the football pyramid, which is why it already voluntarily distributes its revenue to lower leagues. The Government’s strong preference is for an industry-led solution that works for all of football. However, given the importance of financial distributions to financial sustainability and that ensuring a timely satisfactory agreement is in the public interest, the regulator will need to have a targeted backstop power to intervene if necessary. The regulator will have targeted powers to intervene as a last resort. This means that, if football cannot deliver a solution, the regulator will. These backstop powers have been carefully designed to incentivise an industry-led solution that delivers the right outcomes with minimum regulatory involvement. As such, the regulator will only ever intervene as a last resort.
Lord Markham Portrait Lord Markham (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I want to make sure I properly understood the answer to the question on the circumstances in which the Minister would say it was appropriate to take money from one club and give it to another. The Minister answered that the Bill was not seeking to do that because it was looking at the movement of money between competitions. But if you take more money from the Premier League to give to the Championship and other clubs, by definition the clubs receive less money, so that is what happens there. I am not sure that saying money is coming from the competition, not the clubs, is an answer; the money is coming from the clubs. I was not sure about the Minister’s answer. When you change the payments between the Premier League, that directly impacts the clubs and the money they receive.

Baroness Twycross Portrait Baroness Twycross (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My understanding is that the amendment would prevent money going from club to club. The model is around distribution between leagues or competitions, as the noble Lord suggests. There is already a situation in which the Premier League recognises that some financial redistribution is needed. I refer the noble Lord to previous discussions about why the regulator and financial redistribution of some type are required within the football pyramid.

Amendments 126 and 130 relate to the regulator being able to state in its rules any further information that is required to accompany the application for a provisional licence or the strategic business plan. The regulator will be independent, and it will be the expert. We need to give it the flexibility to implement its regime as it considers appropriate. This includes being able to request additional information in a club’s application if necessary to satisfy itself that the club will meet the test for a provisional operating licence. This will be set out up front in the rules, so clubs will always know in advance what is required of them when submitting an application or a strategic business plan. For the reasons I have set out, I am unable to accept the noble Lords’ amendments, and I hope they will not press them.

Lord Hayward Portrait Lord Hayward (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I find the Minister’s answer interesting, but I will start by making a comment in relation to my noble friend—I do address him as my noble friend—Lord Addington’s remarks regarding regulation. The concerns we have on these Benches are in relation not to regulation per se but to regulatory creep and regulatory definition. The first few clauses in the Bill in one form or another either cover inadequately or do not cover the question of regulation.

My first amendments related to sustainability and the breadth of that comment. The Minister has just made her observations in relation to “targeted”, “prioritised” and “proportionate”. We are trying to establish precisely what the regulator can operate to, more clearly than we have in the Bill as it stands. It is not clear, and the net result is, as we know and as has been observed by any number of Members across this House, that we watch regulators use regulatory creep one after another after another.

The Minister used the words “proportionate” and “targeted”. Is the regulator going to have exactly the same interpretation of “proportionate” or “targeted” as the Minister? No. By definition there are no minds alike, and therefore they will be different. In this set of amendments we are trying to find out precisely how the regulator should operate. Without that clarity, the Bill gives the regulator what I regard, and I think many people on this side of the Committee particularly regard, as undue breadth of self-interpretation. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, referred to the Premier League and the payments that are made. I agree with parts of the comments that he made, but we have here a unique operation whereby the Premier League makes payments to other clubs in other divisions and to those facing threats of relegation so that the whole system does not fail.

The noble Lord, Lord Goddard, identified the banking crisis. Under those circumstances, Governments worldwide intervened in all sorts of ways in all sorts of businesses. That is not comparable with trying to regulate a sport, and a highly successful sport as it is. What is significant and interesting is that although the Premier League passes money downwards, the Championship does not. It receives money and could easily pass money down, but fails to do so. Therefore, one is looking at a complicated position in terms of regulation and the impact it will have, in a way that has been eloquently identified in a number of contributions from the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, from her understanding, unique in this Chamber, of the operation of both the Championship and the Premier League.

I will continue to seek clarity, as I am sure others will, on what is intended behind the work of the regulator. That is what we are here to do, and we should do it step by step as we look at each clause and subsection. Having made those comments and noted what the Minister said, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 51 withdrawn.
Amendments 52 and 53 not moved.
Amendment 54
Moved by
54: Clause 6, page 5, line 14, at end insert—
“(d) to ensure regulated clubs have a clear, appropriate governance structure with a board consisting of executive and non-executive directors enabling decisions to be taken collectively.”
Lord Blunkett Portrait Lord Blunkett (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I rise to move Amendment 54 in my name and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and to speak to the associated Amendment 159, which relates to Schedule 5 and the role of the regulator in relation to the code of practice.

I hope we will not spend an hour on this group. Having sat through parts of the first two days in Committee, I have heard exactly the same arguments this afternoon as I heard on the previous groups, including on the definition of football, what we mean by competition and even what fairness is. Well, I know that fairness is not the argument about whether the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, pays his due share towards a piglet pie at Brighton’s football ground.

What is this all about? It is quite right that we in this House should scrutinise, raise legitimate argument and challenge a Bill of this sort, but I say to the Premier League, and to those who are, by the very nature of the debate over the last three Committee days, involved in taking the briefings: overdo this and you will do so at your peril, because at some point millions of fans out there might learn what is going on with the filibuster taking place in this Committee and, when they do, they will be very angry.

The Premier League, with its money and its brilliant legal and lobbying support, needs to just reflect on whether this filibuster and what is being done in this Committee is benefiting it. I think not—sometimes overdoing it can be really detrimental.

Baroness Fox of Buckley Portrait Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I have no idea whether there is filibustering going on, nor whether everybody on this side of the Committee who I have not spoken to is in the pockets of the Premier League, but I feel there is a kind of gaslighting going on. I take the Bill seriously. I have read as much as I can. Nobody in the Premier League has come anywhere near me, should the noble Lord want to know, nor written my speeches or talked to me.

It is just not fair. There is a lot in the Bill to get one’s head around and to try to speak to. If there is repetition going on in this debate, it is people on the other side constantly saying that anyone scrutinising the Bill must have been got at by the Premier League. That is certainly not true of a wide range of us.

Lord Blunkett Portrait Lord Blunkett (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, that if you do not have the hat on, you are not wearing it. It is not an individual I am talking about.

I would like artificial intelligence or GPT to do a word count of exactly what the Benches opposite have said over and over again over the last three days in Committee. I started to do that again this afternoon. There were the same phrases, the same arguments and the same resentment all over again about the idea that we should regulate.

Bear in mind, this whole issue came out of the report of a former Conservative Sport Minister. It was subject to a White Paper by the previous Conservative Government in February 2023, and legislation was then drawn up by the Conservative Government. After all that further scrutiny and debate outside, we are now debating it under a Labour Government—ho, ho, ho.

Let us be clear: get this wrong and it will not be the Premier League that loses out; it will be a pyramid, which by its very nature is built from the bottom. Without the rest of the EFL and beyond, we would not have a Premier League. You could ring-fence the 20 clubs, which is what some of them would like; I am sure it would be fantastic for the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, to know that West Ham would never be relegated. I would love Sheffield Wednesday to never be relegated ever again. In fact, I ought to declare a reverse interest: my family and I sponsor a member of the Sheffield Wednesday squad, Callum Paterson. My only resentment is that the manager does not put him on the field often enough. There we are, Saturday after Saturday—and, these days, Sunday after Sunday—seeing competition working and seeing the struggle that is going on.

16:30
My amendments are about this: in company law, we expect a degree of governance—this is called the Football Governance Bill—and we do so as a safeguard for everyone. In the case of competition generally, it is about customers and shareholders; in this case, it is also about the fans, who are also the customers. We need a sensible governance structure—these are exploratory, probing amendments, to which my noble friend on the Front Bench will undoubtedly respond—so that we can get the balance right.
I believe that good governance is a protection not just for the fans but for the owners. It protects the owners from unwarranted attack, bearing in mind that in the Championship, League One and League Two, £450 million is being pumped in, this season alone, to ensure that clubs do not go bust, because they do not have the mass revenue that the Premier League has because of its sheer brilliance on the field and in negotiating television rights and the like.
We need the proper governance that you would expect in any well-run business so that the owners are protected from undue attack and the fans know that the club is being properly run, and you cannot have a representative of the fans without a proper governance structure. It is as simple as that. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, that, because I am determined that we do not go on until 3 am or into Christmas, I will leave it at that. It is as simple as the amendments outline: we need a code of practice that everybody understands and that they can adhere to, so that on a weekend or an evening we can get the kind of game out there that the fans deserve.
Lord Knight of Weymouth Portrait Lord Knight of Weymouth (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 157 in my name; I am grateful to those who have added their names. It seeks to add to the governance requirements for licensed football clubs that there should be at least two independent non-executive directors appointed to their main board. The remit for these directors should follow the definition set out in the UK Corporate Governance Code developed by the Financial Reporting Council. I thank the Arsenal Supporters’ Trust for its support for me in putting this amendment together.

As your Lordships know, independent non-executive directors bring independent expertise, scrutiny and accountability to a board, and would have a key role to play in upholding the principles of the Bill around financial sustainability and supporter engagement. I had a quick look and noted that Brighton & Hove Albion Football Club have several independent non-executives; West Ham are reported to have a couple; Liverpool have solely Kenny Dalglish; and Arsenal have simply the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Peckham.

I think we should have more than just the one. The appointment of independent non-executive directors, and their role in advising and scrutinising a club’s financial position, can be an effective check and balance. It is likely to mitigate the need for an independent regulator to intervene regularly, as more issues will be successfully addressed through the accountability that independent non-execs provide.

They can also safeguard the interests of the association’s stakeholders and membership, as the code sets out. In this case, that means supporters. The UK Corporate Code sets out how independent non-execs have a role in overseeing effective engagement with stakeholders. In the case of football, this would of course be adopted to cover supporters and would really help to develop progress on the requirement for effective fan engagement by providing independent senior voices who would play a key part in ensuring effective dialogue with fans.

In that vein, the DCMS requires all national governing bodies for sport to appoint independent non-executive directors to their boards, as set out in the sports governance code. So I ask the Minister to set out provision for independent non-execs on the face of the Bill, or give us reassurance that the regulator itself will bring forward requirements around this issue in the governance code that it will produce.

Lord Markham Portrait Lord Markham (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I would like to support absolutely these amendments. I say for the record—and I am sure that I speak for all contributors to these debates—that I am making these points because I care deeply about football and about what is best for football. I think these amendments absolutely do that.

I have many examples of sitting on boards as an independent non-exec director; they are absolutely the sort of people we want, making sure that a club is putting forward appropriate business plans that are sensible, and sometimes taking a risk—risk appetite is in these amendments—but with the right approach to doing so. Having that balance on the board, of owners, supporters and independent, wise heads, has got to be a sensible thing. With that in mind, I offer my support for the amendments.

Baroness Grey-Thompson Portrait Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I rise very briefly to speak to Amendments 54, 156 and 157. I apologise to your Lordships for not being here on the previous day of Committee but, as chair of Sport Wales—I declare my interest—I was chairing a meeting of Welsh governing bodies of sport.

In my time involved in sport, I have sat on a number of different sports bodies, including British Athletics, where intimate knowledge of the sport is really helpful, and the Olympic Park London Legacy Development Corporation, where wider knowledge of a range of sports makes a difference. I put my name on these amendments because I sat for two years on the board of Yorkshire County Cricket Club and was interim chair for nine months. As part of that, I was challenged occasionally on whether I knew the laws of cricket and how dare I put my name forward for this. But I was not there as an independent non-executive to umpire a game; I was there to bring good governance to the county.

Bringing that jigsaw of skills is really important. As the noble Lord, Lord Knight, mentioned, there is a sports governance code. Olympic and Paralympic sport have benefited greatly from having this. It is about bringing that expertise, accountability and scrutiny. For me, it is about setting the tone for the whole pyramid of the game, and how that feeds up to the Premier League. If we do not get this right for the pyramid, we do not get it right for the sport. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response to these amendments.

Lord Reay Portrait Lord Reay (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I wish to speak briefly to Amendment 249, laid down by the noble Lord, Lord Mann, and Amendment 156 from the noble Lord, Lord Bassam. Regrettably, I was not able to participate at Second Reading, for which I apologise. I declare an interest as an enthusiastic football fan and supporter of West Ham United since the days of Bobby Moore and Geoff Hurst—which dates me a bit.

Clause 20 of this Bill introduces corporate governance duties with regard to equality, diversity and inclusion. Amendment 249 from the noble Lord, Lord Mann, would create an additional duty on football clubs to produce an annual report detailing the club’s diversity and inclusion strategy. This sounds in theory like a good thing. The problem here is that the Football Association’s idea of diversity and inclusion seems to be to promote some forms of diversity while silencing—even excluding—others.

The current approach at the FA punishes and excludes one particular group: women who object to male inclusion in the women’s game. Noble Lords have previously spoken in this House about the 17 year-old girl who was disciplined and suspended for asking a male player on the pitch in a women’s game, “Are you a bloke—a male player in a women’s game?” She was suspended. That is not inclusion.

Amendment 156, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, proposes that the corporate government statement must include a club’s plan to improve the diversity of season ticket holders, staff and senior managers. The FA’s investigations unit helped Newcastle United Football Club collect personal information about a lesbian fan which resulted in her suspension by the club from attending matches because someone at her club did not like her social media posts. This behaviour by the FA and the club is not inclusion.

Both examples show intolerance of what are called gender-critical views—that is, the ordinary scientific and common-sense understanding that there are two sexes, that human beings cannot change sex and that sex matters. Those are mainstream views and they are critical to ensuring fairness and safety in sport. People who hold and express them are protected against discrimination and harassment on the basis of belief by the Equality Act 2010, but the FA is punishing female players and fans for expressing these views.

Through its partnership with Stonewall, the FA has made its campaign one of intolerance, disallowing the expression of any views other than the mantra of “trans women are women”. When diversity and inclusion is defined by more tolerance, I shall welcome it. If we compel English football to pursue more of this so-called diversity and inclusion, it will be at the further expense of women and girls.

What is the solution? The solution is to stop talking in vague terms about diversity and inclusion and have the courage to talk about the groups who need to be included: women and girls, gay men and those who are disabled. Let us have less of the thought-policing and more genuine inclusion. Until we can do that, we must oppose the further imposition of vague diversity and inclusion requirements, because they are anything but inclusive.

Baroness Brady Portrait Baroness Brady (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, before I speak to Amendment 156 in particular, I want to address a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett. There have been 51 clubs in the Premier League since its inception, and there are no permanent members of the Premier League. The Premier League is responsible. It works in a way that looks after the entire pyramid, with its £1.6 billion voluntary redistribution, and it is that money that powers the entire Premier League.

I have spent 32 years—almost all my career—working in professional football across the Football League and the Premier League. My suggestions for amendments are, in a way, to assist the Government to make the Bill work better and avoid the unintended consequences that we all fear and keep warning about.

Amendment 156, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton, concerns inclusion and diversity among season ticket holders in the corporate governance statement. I want to say at the outset that diversity is undoubtedly a critical issue in any industry, and football is no exception. Clubs across the pyramid should and do strive to be welcoming and inclusive spaces for all. However, with respect to the noble Lord, the amendment makes a profound and dangerous error. It proposes to involve the regulator in micromanaging some of the most fiercely prized and deeply personal relationships that football clubs hold: their connection with their season ticket holders.

Season ticket holders are the beating heart of football clubs. They are not just customers; they are custodians of the club’s heritage and identity. They represent generations of loyalty, support and community spirit. To suggest that the club should be required to actively manage and engineer the diversity of this group fundamentally misunderstands the organic and deeply embedded nature of these relationships. It risks turning something sacred and delicate into a crude tick-box exercise. For what purpose? To satisfy an external regulator’s misguided notion of progress. I cannot stress enough how risky that would be. It is yet another sign of the scope creep and dangers that lurk in the Bill.

I am not saying that football does not have a role to play in promoting diversity and inclusion—it absolutely does, and clubs up and down the country are already leading by example in the brilliant work that they do every day in this regard. But these initiatives arise from the clubs themselves, born out of genuine commitment and not fear of regulatory overreach. That is how to foster real, lasting change—not by imposing quotas or forcing clubs to meet arbitrary targets but by working with them to build on the good will and trust that they already share with their communities.

16:45
If the regulator were ever to presume to dictate the composition of season ticket holders, even indirectly, that would be a terrible precedent. Where does it end? Will clubs be told whom they can and cannot allow into their grounds, based on diversity metrics? That would not promote inclusion; it would undermine trust, alienate fans and drive a wedge between clubs and their most loyal supporters.
The regulator’s role as envisaged by the Bill is supposed to safeguard financial sustainability; it is not a social engineering body. It has neither the expertise nor the mandate to wade into matters as sensitive as the make-up of a club’s fan base. Football is inherently competitive; clubs live and die by their ability to attract and retain fans. A regulator forcing their hand on this front is just not necessary and is completely counterproductive. Clubs are not perfect, but they understand their communities better than any regulator ever could. Let us not risk eroding that bond.
Lord Goddard of Stockport Portrait Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I hear what the noble Baroness says about diversity. This weekend, a West Ham player, Antonio, had a terrible car accident and is in hospital now. If you had seen some of the vile and disgusting comments on social media about the player and the club, you would begin to understand why we need diversity.

I have just looked it up, and the dictionary says that diversity is

“the practice or quality of including or involving people from a range of different social and ethnic backgrounds and of different genders, sexual orientations”,

and that

“equality and diversity should be supported for their own sake”.

I do not have that rosy picture of football supporters. I lived through the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s and heard the chants at various football grounds, which we cannot now repeat in this Chamber. Things are getting better and more acceptable, but it has not gone away. We need diversity to be brought to the fore.

As for the idea that we can just let the clubs do nothing and let this evolve, that just will not happen. We need to make statements. We need, via the regulator and via some of these amendments, to enshrine things in a regulator’s role. What is wrong with having a diversity report that a football club would produce once a year? It is not a tick-box exercise; it stops comments being made about certain footballers about gender, colour, creed or whatever. The more we can introduce that and embed it into football, the less vitriolic nonsense we will get. You still hear it, even on Sky, when they then say, “If you heard anything you shouldn’t have heard, we apologise for that”. That is what you get as an answer—but it needs stopping. These kinds of amendments are needed to enshrine in the regulator the ability to say to clubs, “You will give that report and commit to doing all those things around what diversity means”.

Baroness Brady Portrait Baroness Brady (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the noble Lord for his comments about the West Ham player, Michail Antonio. It was a real shock to me on Saturday when I received a call from the police about his car accident, but I am pleased to report that he has had an operation and is recovering well. I take the opportunity to thank all the NHS staff and all the emergency services, including the air ambulance and the firefighters who cut him free from his car.

I agree with the noble Lord that the comments footballers are subject to is a terrible shame. It is absolutely horrific and that is a problem with social media. Clubs themselves do everything they can. At West Ham, we have the highest standard of equality and diversity; you cannot be awarded any higher standard than we have. We take it very seriously and that feeds down through our entire club. I thank him for making those comments. Football is trying to deal with those things, but there could be help from other places. We know about the Online Safety Act and that could really help.

Baroness Young of Hornsey Portrait Baroness Young of Hornsey (CB)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I support Amendment 157. I declare an interest as a Premier League season ticket holder. I apologise to the Committee for not having been present during previous debates on the Bill, but I have endeavoured to keep up with its progress.

This part of our discussion seems to overlay lots of different and very complex issues, piling them all into one or two amendments. As I speak to Amendment 157, I will try to focus on governance and having independent, non-executive directors on boards, which is absolutely essential when looking at this issue. As the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, has pointed out, there is this idea of football clubs being not just a business or a commercial entity, as other commercial entities are. They are also considered to be community assets, so there is a wide range of stakeholders involved in the promotion, adoration, despair and all the other emotions that go with being a football fan. As has been rightly pointed out, it almost defines something about England.

It is therefore important to try to ensure, as far as possible without being too prescriptive, that we have independent non-executive directors on boards because of the accountability. At the moment, I think many fans feel that there is no accountability. I take on board a lot of the points made about how progressive and determined clubs are to counter the horrible things that happen online and elsewhere, but clubs have also not been terribly successful in changing the faces that sit around those boardroom tables. If we look at reviews such as Sir John Parker’s review of ethnic diversity on boards, there has been some improvement in some sectors. I would gladly be persuaded by those who know better if it is the case that diversity has been increased around those tables.

That is just one part of it. To me, this feels like a move for basic good practice. We have the Nolan principles and we have guidance from the Institute of Directors. All those kinds of guidelines need transparency and people to speak up for them who do not have an interest in a particular way on those boards.

Lord Bassam of Brighton Portrait Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I have not had the chance yet to speak to my amendments but I am grateful to other noble Lords for participating in the debate and making their comments and views well known. I am slightly disturbed that the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, has rather overinterpreted my Amendment 156. I was not aware that I was in favour of imposing quotas, but it is an interesting point.

Amendment 156 is there simply to raise the issue of ensuring that in corporate governance, football clubs are obliged to improve the diversity within the club, not just among season ticket holders but among staff and senior managers. We have made great progress through football and its barrier-breaking approach to the world of sport over the last 30 or 40 years. I can remember some pretty unpleasant scenes at football grounds when I first started watching football seriously. Gladly, those have become much less frequent but there is a real and genuine issue about representation, particularly of black players then not getting opportunities in off-field representation at all levels of management.

I have received a useful briefing today from the Black Footballers Partnership, which points out exactly that. Only two of the current 92 league managers are black, despite black footballers making up 43% of the players. The Black Footballers Partnership data shows that despite achieving 14% of all FIFA pro licences and one in four of UEFA licences, black players secure only 4% of the coaching and other managerial roles. There is clearly something not right there.

It is important that clubs are obliged to think through some of these issues. Quotas may or may not be the way to do it but we have opportunity here for football to think about improving the levels of diversity, not just in football management but in all management positions and other roles within the clubs. As the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, said, clubs have led the way and have played a really startling and dynamic role over time.

With this amendment—and I am grateful to those who have signed it and spoken to it—I am trying to get football to begin thinking more widely about diversity in its broadest sense so that in the future it is just part and parcel of how it should be. I guess the noble Lord, Lord Hannan, would think that this is regulation creep, but I do not see it that way; I see it as setting standards for the future. Football has a proud reputation, and it is one it should build on.

In this amendment, we are seeking to encourage football to build on its reputation, because that is what needs to be done to make the world of football more inclusive and better reflect the society in which it is located. If we can do that, I think the values of football—competition and solidarity—will be much better represented. It would add to the fairness and equity that is there within a very competitive game.

Baroness Fox of Buckley Portrait Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I think the motivation behind the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, and the intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Goddard of Stockport, posits diversity as something you cannot possibly be against. Of course, we are all against prejudice—I hope—and that seems very commonsensical. In fact, the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, made the point that he tabled this amendment so we could have a proper discussion about diversity.

The problem for me is that diversity, in the context of governance of organisations, is already established across a wide range of organisations. I am afraid it has not been for the good of those organisations. I will address the problems of diversity as a bureaucratic intervention, especially in the hands of a regulator, and why I think it will not be good for football. That does not mean I am implicitly on the side of people who are racists or not interested in equal rights or fairness.

It is important that we have some perspective here. We might note that there are 64 different nationalities represented in the Premier League, as well as a myriad of religious denominations. For players in all the different football teams across the league, that is surely proof of meritocracy—rather than box-ticking diversity schemes—that provides the riches of talents, that is colour-blind and that is not interested in people based on their characteristics.

I also think we have huge diversity in fanbase, and it has not needed a regulator to organise schemes to ensure that English football is loved by hundreds of millions of people of all shapes and sizes, ethnicities and socioeconomic backgrounds across the globe. Meanwhile, female fans, players and popular momentum are propelling women’s football into the limelight. Therefore, I do not think that football is an example of a pale, male, stale institution that is waiting for a regulator to sort it out.

Both the amendments I am concerned about, Amendments 156 and 249, mention the clubs’ employees and monitoring and reporting on staff diversity. But I think we need to take heed of some of the negative lessons from other workplaces, particularly the public sector. Whatever the intention, too often an over-preoccupation with diversity is less likely to create more fairness for staff but does create an explosion of jobs for human resources—HR—apparatchiks, who manage the diversity and inclusion schemes that we set up.

It is worth noting that Britain has one of the largest HR sectors in the world. It is one area of growth that somebody somewhere might be proud of, although I am rather in despair at it. According to the British Labour Force Survey, there was an 83% increase in HR jobs between 2011 and 2023. As journalist Lucy Barton pointed out, that means that HR workers currently outnumber NHS doctors three to one. Let that sink in. A lot of this growth is due to job creation in relation to EDI demands. I do not think we should go ahead with these amendments on diversity and inclusion but, if we do, I propose some sort of cost-benefit analysis. The salaries needed for the hours and hours of paperwork that the regulator will be checking that the clubs do could be incredibly financially burdensome—even crippling—on many clubs.

17:00
The problem is not just money and resources. The growth of HR in today’s cultural climate tends not to be a neutral act. It comes with the baggage of political ideology, if we are honest about it. Civic Future has explained that HR has moved from responding to an organisation’s needs to shaping them. We need to be careful what we wish for here. The aim might be to reduce discrimination, but often it is just a green light for increasing discrimination complaints, claims and even lawsuits. Data from employment tribunals show that there has been a significant rise in cases brought using the Equality Act during the 2020s compared to the 2010s. That is proof not that discrimination is being tackled but that overzealous organisations, acting either because they have these HR people in or because some regulator is breathing down their neck, get it wrong.
Just this weekend, we found out that the security services have said they will not recruit white British students to their internship schemes. Already people are talking about going to court because that is racist, discriminatory and unlawful. By the way, their justification is diversity. It is exactly the same as what happened with the RAF last year, which was forced to apologise when it emerged that it was unlawfully discriminating against white, male recruits. I also remind the Committee of the landmark case of Maya Forstater, who lost her job for expressing gender-critical views, all in an attempt to be inclusive of a trans employee. Her employers ended up breaking anti-discrimination laws in firing her.
For all this talk of tackling discrimination and creating more diverse workplaces, in this case in football clubs, we never tackle the lack of diversity of opinions. That question is never raised. We have already heard from the noble Lord, Lord Reay, that if you are a female football fan who expresses a gender-critical view then you might end up getting disciplined by your football club. You have to query all the time what these words mean and what exactly is happening here. Too often when football has entered into the political arena—which is why I do not want it to—it adopts a homogenous worldview such as that which took hold at the height of the embrace of Black Lives Matter in the middle of 2020, when fans who were less than keen on the “taking the knee” gesture that some players endorsed or were sceptical of BLM’s anti-white “defund the police” policies were then denounced as racist.
Just ask Crystal Palace’s Marc Guéhi, who was reprimanded for wearing a rainbow armband declaring “I love Jesus”, apparently transgressing the FA’s rule not to use equipment to promote political, religious or personal slogans. But what are those armbands promoted by the Premier League if not a blatant partisan campaign slogan for inclusion ideologies? Over the weekend, it was announced that the FA is facing legal action over its Rainbow Laces campaign and claims that the annual show of cheerleading for LGBTQ+ interests breaches the governing body’s ban on political messaging. This has nothing to do with people, by the way.
It is very important that we do not naively say, “Oh, we just want diversity and fairness. What’s wrong with that?” There is a political campaign behind some of this, and we have to be wary of introducing it into football with the full force of a regulator.
I also want to query how equal opportunities will be monitored. Definitions of protected characteristics are increasingly unhelpful. I mentioned the Civil Service. In an excellent article in the New Statesman, former senior civil servant Pamela Dow used the example of graduates ticking the disability box on their application to the Civil Service Fast Stream. That meant that they rose from 11% in 2014 to 23% in 2020, perhaps because it allowed candidates to skip an assessment stage, therefore possibly incentivising them to disclose. When we say we want to report on and monitor diversity and to know who is who, can we at least have a question mark about what is being measured? Therefore, regardless of what it means, the Civil Service now has no idea how many people are blind, bipolar, using a wheelchair or with a self-diagnosed ADHD or anxiety question. I do not think those sorts of statistics are helpful. I am worried about just taking on board mandating it and box-ticking, and therefore actually not doing anything for people with disabilities.
I am especially disturbed by the explicit mention of monitoring the diversity make-up of season ticket holders. We have constantly stressed that teams are very important to local areas, but what if a locality has a majority of white citizens? Will it fail some diversity test if the majority of season ticket holders have the wrong skin colour? If there is a large percentage of local residents from south-east Asia who do not choose to attend football matches, but who might be passionately engaged in another sport, will they be dragooned into the ground? It is a wrongful assumption that these local residents are not interested in football because of some implicit bias on behalf of the club. Will Spurs be in trouble if too many of their season ticket holders are Jewish—disproportionate to the ethnic or religious demographic breakdowns of the ground’s vicinity?
I will pause here—and I am glad the Chief Whip is not in, because I know I will get in trouble—to say a shout-out to the fan activists. My final point is about the Spurs fans who are valiantly publicising the plight of Spurs-mad Emily Damari, the one remaining British citizen held hostage in the terror tunnels. There is heroic solidarity from them. She is one of us—bring her home.
Lord Mann Portrait Lord Mann (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am a little bewildered by the direction of the debate. Some of these amendments have been put to tease out the issues. My general commentary would be rather different from that of the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, who seemed very unkeen on the tremendous work being done across football by the clubs, which I commend. Indeed, I do not just commend it; I can quantify it. I reference my entry in the Register of Lords’ Interests as the Government’s adviser on anti-Semitism, then and now. I am particularly impressed by the first ever programme of anti-Semitism training in football, which was launched two years ago. There were a few eyebrows at first, with people asking, “What is this?” In two years, two-thirds of English football has volunteered to be trained. Significant numbers are having their academies trained and some are having players, the board and staff trained. It is particularly interesting and valuable that the biggest single piece of training in the city of Leeds—ever—was the training of Leeds United stewards under this programme.

I am delighted that Liverpool Football Club will be one of many clubs starting in the new year. The list of engagements on this in the first quarter of next year is quite formidable—but there is space for more. This is a success in football, because of what it said to the small number of Jewish players, Jewish staff and Jewish fans: you are valued here.

Just last week, I was at Leyton Orient, where the Jewish supporters’ group sponsored the match against Bristol Rovers. Leyton Orient outperformed anything they had done this season as a response. There will be the first-ever Hanukkah events at Fulham Football Club and at Leeds United Football Club. Other new groups are being formed. Other groups have existing events around Hanukkah and Holocaust Memorial Day. This is a positive, and it is not to the exclusion of any other group. Indeed, we find that other small groups of people who perhaps do not see many people like themselves in the stadium, on the pitch or in the club also welcome it. I have seen clubs embrace that as well. If I was running a club, which I have no desire to do—sometimes I would like to influence one or two of the footballing decisions, but would not we all?—then I would want my club to do that and welcome it. I would call it a good business plan.

On the whole question of diversity, one of its weaknesses and the reason why I tabled an amendment, just to tease out what the Government think—not because I think this is a good regulation necessarily but it should be good club business—is that there is a deficit in the number of black players getting into the better coaching and managerial jobs. That is clearly to the detriment of our national game. Their talent is not being used. How that is captured and by whom is, of course, important, but from a business point of view it is a competitive disadvantage if a large group of participants in the game are then not getting into the coaching and managerial side even vaguely relative to the numbers who participate as players. It is clearly a weakness, and whichever clubs are best at addressing that will have a competitive advantage. I am interested in teasing out and listening to the Minister on how we can help football to grab that.

I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, that the overall picture is that football is full of EDI officers. I have had the pleasure of meeting many of them over the last two years —indeed a majority in English football. They are excellent people doing brilliant work. They are out doing work in the community as well, supporting young players from a range of backgrounds. They are a key strength in the clubs and in the clubs’ business plans, as well as in the communities. They should be commended. The more we can encourage that by whatever means, the better we will be doing our job.

Lord Jackson of Peterborough Portrait Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Mann. He is a man of great good sense and pragmatism. In fact, I could have agreed with most of what he said but, unfortunately, on this occasion I will not agree with his amendment.

First of all, I will go back to the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, which I agree with. It is very sensible, and the Minister would be wise to accept it. But his preamble was simply wrong. It presupposes that external forces are exerting inappropriate pressure on this side to make cases in their favour, which is completely untrue. I say that because we on this side are merely going through the proper process of scrutiny and oversight, which is our job, to test the efficacy or otherwise of the Bill. Remember: we had a general election, and we have a new Administration, a new Bill and a new Opposition. Therefore, we are quite within our rights to challenge the Bill on its face.

I pray in aid figures from the past few years about the number of Committee days given over to various Bills in this House. The Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011 had 17 sitting days. We have six. The Children and Families Act 2014 had 12 sitting days, and the Localism Act 2011 had 10. There are a number of examples. Much as I hugely respect the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, I respectfully disagree with him.

I move on to the specific issues of, particularly, Amendment 156 from the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, and Amendment 249 from the noble Lord, Lord Mann. These are two quite insidious amendments; I find them quite Orwellian, actually. It is not that we do not trust local football clubs to do the right thing in terms of community outreach, working with their community and improving equality and diversity, but noble Lords are being asked to put those powers into a regulator that will develop a national template. Whether, therefore, you are Bristol Rovers, Brentford, Brighton and Hove Albion or Bradford City—to use some alliteration—you will be told what you have to put in place in terms of your EDI policies, which I do not think is right. It nationalises corporate philanthropy and community outreach. It is also a displacement activity, because it presupposes that that work is not already being done.

17:15
The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, touched on the Government’s issues around what the Premier League is doing at the moment, and he had a point. In fact, I think he proved the point we made on our side on the previous group of amendments. There is, however, a huge amount of work being done. Today, 90 clubs across the Premier League, English Football League and National League work with 36 police forces to provide young people with access to free weekly football sessions and education workshops in safe and supportive community environments.
There have been over 1 million hours of free Premier League Kicks sessions since its inception, engaging more than 522,000 participants. This season, 90 professional football clubs across the Premier League, EFL and National League are supported to run weekly sessions to help young people to achieve their potential; 38% of attendees are from ethnically diverse communities and 25% are female. There are 4,900 delivery venues across England and Wales, and more than half are located in the most deprived neighbourhoods. There are 21,000 volunteers, and 20% of the workforce are former participants. There has been £81.6 million invested into the programme through the Premier League Charitable Fund.
The issue, therefore, to paraphrase my noble friend Lord Hannan of Kingsclere, is: what question are these amendments answering? Given that there are already quite significant legal powers through the Equality Act 2010 and other legislation to discourage direct discrimination, this circumscribes and undermines the capacity of local clubs to make local decisions to help, for instance, white British boys who are disadvantaged, disabled youngsters who are disadvantaged or lesbian women who are disadvantaged, as we heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, and my noble friend Lord Reay.
Imposing that top-down approach is well meant—the comments by the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Hornsey, the noble Lords, Lord Bassam, Lord Blunkett and Lord Mann, were wise, sensible and well meant—but we must remember that these are powers that we are giving in a very permissive Bill to an independent football regulator. They are powers that, I believe, have the potential to be misused. More importantly, there are powers already in place for local clubs to use at the grass-roots level to improve lives in the local community. For that reason, I oppose those particular amendments.
Lord Burns Portrait Lord Burns (CB)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I support Amendment 54 with regard to the governance of clubs. I am sorry that I could not take part at Second Reading, but I have been present for a significant part of Committee. I have been a season ticket holder at either Sunderland or QPR for most of my life, and I now have three season tickets at QPR for myself, my son and grandson—I fear what I have done to both of them, but that is another problem.

In 2005, I undertook a report for the Football Association on its governance. Quite a number of important proposals that I made were carried out, but I am afraid that some were not. I sometimes think that, if they had been, there would have been for the Bill that we are having to spend so much time on now.

As far as experience goes, I was a member of the board of QPR for a few years and I have been the chairman of a bank. For me, there are some interesting similarities between football and banking: both are rather risky activities. The risks in football are about the performance of the team, the loss of value of players, either because of form or injury, and the risks involved in promotion and relegation. From my observation, and experience at the time, the biggest risk to clubs is overreaching; it is about taking too much risk. They are very often funded by owners or directors. Things go downhill and the directors then want their money back, if it was in the form of loans, which forces clubs into selling players at a loss.

The banks have a prudential regulator and I accept that there is a clear need for some body that has oversight for football as well from the point of view of prudential regulation. The point was made earlier that it is no good coming along once problems have emerged. You need systems and processes in place that monitor areas of activities where risks lie.

I am a great supporter of requirements of good governance in all kinds of organisations. I have sat on many boards, and I have seen good boards and not so good boards. There is a great deal of difference. It is significant to me that, when I was involved in banking and dealing with financial regulators, they placed great emphasis on the quality of the board in overseeing what was going on and particularly the risks it was undertaking. It seems to me to follow naturally that there should be the same requirement for the football regulator with respect to clubs.

I add—it is not for today—that I looked at the requirements and some of the governance issues that have been suggested for the regulator, but I am not sure all would pass the standards of good governance. For example, the exclusive role of the chairman in choosing the chief executive seems slightly odd for a body that has non-executive directors as well as a chairman. But I very much support this amendment.

Lord Evans of Rainow Portrait Lord Evans of Rainow (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I rise to question Amendment 156 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Taylor of Bolton and Lady Grey-Thompson. It is a great pleasure to follow the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Burns, because it is a reminder to us of how much experience we have here, from a board director of a Premier League football club to regular supporters and, in the noble Lord’s case, the holder of three season tickets. I pay tribute to him and his long-suffering son and grandson.

The point that I want to make about Amendment 156 is about season tickets. I do not think anybody in your Lordships’ House would argue against diversity in staff and senior managers. The noble Lord, Lord Mann, made the good point that about 40% of Premier League players are from a BME background, but that that does not continue into senior management. That has been the case for a long time and there is clearly more work to do on that.

However, the first part of Amendment 156 talks about

“the diversity of season ticket holders”.

When I saw that, I was worried about the law of unintended consequences. How on earth do you sort out that issue? For season tickets for my team there is something called supply and demand. There are several options for having a season ticket at Manchester United, as there are at other Premier League clubs, but how do you work it out? There is a waiting list, because of supply and demand. Several thousand people are waiting to become season ticket holders, so can the Minister advise the Committee how this amendment would be looked at?

There are a limited number of seats at a ground: in the case of Old Trafford, there are 75,000 seats and a waiting list of 10,000. I have had a season ticket for many years. Recently, they changed where you could sit at Old Trafford. I was unsure for a while whether I would have a ticket for where I moved to. I was told that there was no guarantee that I would have a ticket, which, as you can imagine, was quite distressing for somebody who had been a season ticket holder for many years. As it turned out, I was lucky enough to have a ticket, in the way that several thousand were not.

There is also the option of a league match ticket book. That enables me to go to Premier League games only. There is the cup option—the FA Cup, the Carabao Cup and the European Cup options. There is also a ticket forwarding membership of £20. I mention that because, if you are looking at diversity, you may not be able to get a season ticket holder, but if you want to go and see a Premier League club, becoming a member gives you access to get a ticket. It might not be your favourite Premier League game against your local opposition or any other club in the Premier League, but anybody could apply, become a member of their local club and should be able to get a ticket for a cup game. It may not be a Saturday or a Sunday; it may be a midweek game. Diversity is in evidence at Premier League clubs. For example, accessibility for disability has been there in many clubs for many years. When I sit there before kick-off at Manchester United, I see significant diversity around me. What surprises me is the people who fly around the world to see their team play, as they do for so many other Premier League clubs.

The Premier League is the best premier league in the world for a good reason. It attracts diversity by that very principle. I would be interested in how the regulator would ensure diversity of ticket holders. I say yes when it comes to staff and senior management—I do not think anybody could disagree with that. However, it is complicated, and so much to do with this Bill is the law of unintended consequences. You cannot tell people who have been on waiting lists for many years that they cannot become a season ticket holder because of some diversity report from a regulator.

Lord Moynihan Portrait Lord Moynihan (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I support Amendment 54, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, and Amendment 157, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Knight. I shall speak also to Amendment 249, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Mann, which has a lot to commend it.

Before I comment briefly on those three, I want on the record to thank the Minister. We met this morning. We are fortunate in this Committee to have a Minister who is patient, engaging, professional and, unquestionably, inclusive in her approach to many different amendments and many different views that are expressed throughout this Chamber. When she consistently says how much she is enjoying this, some of us might question that, but there is no doubt that if she is, she deserves to, because she has the respect of the Committee and certainly my respect for the way in which she has engaged with us.

I echo the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, for whom I have many decades of respect. I was completely in agreement with 50% of what he said today, but I caution him in labelling a large number of Members of this Committee as purely spouting the views of the Premier League, trying to talk this Bill out or, more importantly perhaps, breaching the admonition from the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, that because both Front Benches supported the Bill, we should not scrutinise it. He will know that for many decades I have been a passionate and independent voice for sport. My own deeply held view is that the autonomy and self-regulation of sport worldwide, be it in the International Olympic Committee, FIFA, UEFA or any number of international sporting bodies, are essential to the success of sport and ultimately those who participate in it.

17:30
So I hope the noble Lord will understand that, from that perspective at least—going far beyond what the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said about the benefits of light-touch regulation—I have deep reservations about state regulation, or even state-influenced regulation. I do not think I have ever seen a Bill that applies to sport with some 125 pages and 98 highly prescriptive clauses detailing the way in which a regulator would work, or indeed the powers granted to the Secretary of State to influence and control a sport. I simply say to the noble Lord that I have genuine concerns. If we have state-influenced and state-controlled regulation through secondary legislation, and also on the face of the Bill, we will be in danger of finding ourselves in conflict with the UEFA regulations that monitor its competitions, FIFA’s regulations and the International Olympic Committee’s regulations, should we wish to submit for entry a team, either men’s or women’s, to the Olympic Games. That is what concerns me; I have a genuine reservation about it.
Lord Pannick Portrait Lord Pannick (CB)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I point out to the noble Lord that the whole point is that this regulator is independent. Obviously, it is influenced strongly by government decisions, but it is independent. Surely, many of the concerns that the noble Lord is expressing—as, indeed, is the noble Baroness, Lady Fox—are answered by the appointment of a sensible regulator who will act in a proportionate manner.

Lord Moynihan Portrait Lord Moynihan (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I only wish I could say to the noble Lord that that is what we have in front of us. Had we had the opportunity to sit with him and explore each and every clause as we have gone through this, we might have been able to say so, but that is not the case. This is not light-touch regulation. This is not even regulation that you find in the Companies Act.

Let me give the noble Lord a quick example; I risk admonition for repeating a point that I made earlier, but I will make it very quickly indeed. When you give powers to the regulator to explore not just the controlling influence of a football club but those who “significantly” influence a football club, those are very different roles. You have “controlling” in the Premier League; you have “significant influence” in the Bill. Significant influence can reach back as far as the Crown Prince, who has significant influence over the PIF, which owns Newcastle, whereas, by definition in this Bill, he does not control that club, nor would the Premier League investigate him on that basis.

So it is reasonable to accept the noble Lord’s premise—I wish it were true that this is light-touch regulation—but, in reality, this is incredibly intrusive, highly detailed regulation. It goes further than the regulation I put in place in 1990 when I was the Minister responsible for water privatisation and we were setting up Ofwat. That was light-touch regulation in comparison with this extraordinarily detailed Bill. That is the most important point driving my concern about unintended consequences—what some people call the “mission creep” of regulation.

I turn to the amendments. Given that we are going to have a Bill for the reason that the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, said—there is all-party support for having legislation of this kind—we may as well get it right. There is real merit in looking at the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett—backed so eloquently, as ever, by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson—which would

“ensure regulated clubs have a clear, appropriate governance structure with a board consisting of executive and non-executive directors enabling decisions to be taken collectively”.

I hope that it would not be just regulated clubs. I hope that all clubs in all sports would do that, because the benefits of having both executive and non-executive directors is well known to those of us in sport—not least in the British Olympic Association, which I had the privilege of chairing.

The noble Lord, Lord Mann, has widespread support in this House for the work he has done on anti-Semitism and anti-Semitism training. I am glad that he tabled his amendment, because it gives us an opportunity to thank him on behalf of sport and on behalf of football. That work has been absolutely critical; I say this not just as a fellow Leeds fan but because, across sport as a whole, it is vital that we put equality, inclusion and diversity right at the top of what we do.

We are expected to do that outside football. I have an interest to declare as the chair of Amey, which has some 13,000 people. Almost the first thing that I did as chairman was set up an ESG committee immediately beneath the board and chair it so that I could ensure inclusion and diversity were right at the heart of our policy and were in the DNA of everybody who worked in that organisation. I do not believe that that is different from sport and I do not believe that that is different from football.

So, if we are to have legislation—which, as noble Lords know, I regret—let us get this right and listen carefully to what the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, said in the first 50% of his speech, and to the noble Lords, Lord Knight and Lord Mann. There is real merit in the Minister taking this away and thinking about what we would expect to see from the regulator in this context.

Lord Hayward Portrait Lord Hayward (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I was not intending to speak in this debate, but I am afraid that some of the comments that have been made have obliged me to do so.

However, before I come on to the amendments and the comments made in the speeches, I would just like all your Lordships to look around you. We are talking about equality, inclusion and diversity. What proportion of this Chamber is disabled, non-white, gay or lesbian? The answer is: very, very few. It is a compliment to the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, that she is a great example of what women can achieve at the top of the football tree, and that we have a female Minister responding. But I stand here, as I said in my first speech to this Chamber, as the founder chairman of the world’s first gay rugby club. It celebrated its 29th anniversary only just under two months ago and will celebrate, I expect, its 30th anniversary next 1 November.

I find it utterly unacceptable to suggest, as has been suggested, that we should not tackle the question of trans individuals in society. I am proud that I did a podcast the other week with a member of my club, who himself has undergone the process of moving from female to male. He is proud of having done it. There are issues that we have to address in society, as well as issues that we have to address in sport. I believe that on occasion it is appropriate to put things into legislation as an “encouragement” to people to behave in a certain way. It is all very well saying, “Well, we have the right policies and we’ll do it all right”, but I come back to this point: look at this Chamber.

I have not taken any guidance, as Lord Blunkett suggested, from the Premier League, and in fact, on a previous occasion in Committee, I made the point that actually the Premiers League, for all its right efforts, was not messaging correctly. I believe that that is the case here. In rugby we have had openly gay World Cup final referees and a captain of the Welsh rugby team, but we have no openly gay, top-level professional players at the moment, as far as I am aware. But football is behind the times despite the best encouragements from individuals, and it is therefore well worth while asking the question of the Minister and of the regulator, “How are you actually going to tackle these issues?”—because issues they remain.

I will conclude on the observation in relation to Rainbow Laces. Rainbow Laces has been adopted by sport throughout as a means of messaging to people as to how they should behave to other minority groups. They must continue to do so. It is not a political gesture; it is a gesture on behalf of society as a whole to other parts of society. I believe we have achieved so much, but we could achieve so much more.

Baroness Fox of Buckley Portrait Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Maybe the noble Lord and I can have a fruitful conversation outside this debate. For today’s purposes, does he understand that in a discussion about inclusion and diversity, women are concerned about women’s rights and women’s equality? Among women footballers and the parents of young girls they are encouraging to get involved in women’s football and training and so on, there is great discomfort, as the tennis guru Judy Murray said at the weekend. Will he acknowledge that this has nothing to do with individuals? It is to do with the political approach. At the moment, women do not feel included or represented in football because this issue is put to one side, and therefore everyone talking about EDI and all the rest of it is just a slap in the face.

Lord Hayward Portrait Lord Hayward (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I understand the concerns and am quite happy to take a conversation with any Member of the House outside this Chamber. I do not want to prolong the debate this afternoon. I have made my comments. I hope that the regulations we follow in relation to this regulator coincide with company legislation, because that seems to be the appropriate route to go down. I will no doubt continue at a later stage. I think it is important above all to send out a very clear message from this Chamber about what we believe we should achieve—not necessarily legislate—in relation to equality, inclusion and diversity.

Lord Pannick Portrait Lord Pannick (CB)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, in opening this debate, the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, expressed the hope that we would not take another hour dealing with this group of amendments. We have taken well over an hour. I find this debate very odd because we all seem to agree that equality, diversity and inclusion are of enormous importance in football. The noble Baroness, Lady Brady, rightly spoke of the great efforts that West Ham in particular has made and the great results. Many other clubs have done the same. I would be astonished if a Bill dealing with these matters did not require the independent regulator to look at equality, diversity and inclusion and to have broad powers across the scope of football to do so.

Lord Hannan of Kingsclere Portrait Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I assure the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, who knows how much I respect him, that I have had no contact at any point with the Premier League, unless you count occasionally buying a ticket to one of the member clubs. Far from filibustering, my intervention on the previous round was the first time I had spoken since Second Reading, and I kept it to about four minutes. I opposed this Bill very strenuously when it was proposed in the previous Parliament. I am sure he will allow that it is not exactly the same Bill. It has been beefed up in various ways, and those ways need scrutiny.

One of the ways in which it has been beefed up, even short of the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, is in strengthening the EDI provisions. I have to stand back and ask whether it is proper for a regulator to tell private clubs what kind of people should be their ticket holders. Is there not a basic principle of proportionality and property here that says it is in your interest to have as many ticket holders as you can, and it is in their interest, if they are interested, to come? Does that intersection of who wants to come and how much they are prepared to pay not represent the right place in a free society? We are not some autocracy where we impose values on free-standing organisations.

In our present mood we sacralise the values of EDI but tomorrow it may be something else, and that would be equally wrong because there is such a thing as freedom. There is such a thing as a private space, and that is an essential building block of a free society. The noble Lord, Lord Bassam—he will correctly me if I get this wrong—says it is shocking that only 4% of senior management positions are held by black people. According to the 2021 census, the proportion of black people in the UK is 4.0%. In other words, without any intervention, without anyone telling them what to do, we happen to have an exactly representative number. But even if that were not the case—even if, as the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, was saying, there is a much higher proportion of black players in Premier League clubs—surely that is meritocracy. Why would it be the business of government to try to bring that number into line with the population?

Lord Bassam of Brighton Portrait Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Does the noble Lord not think it is rather odd that in a sport where something like 43% or 44% of the players are black, very few of those players make it through into management positions in those same professional leagues? Does he not think there is something slightly amiss there?

Lord Hannan of Kingsclere Portrait Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The figure that is out of whack with the population is the number of players, not the number of managers, which is exactly in line with the population as a whole. The noble Lord may have a problem with that. I do not have a problem with that because it is plainly meritocratic. Clubs are interested in winning, so they pay people who are going to produce the results that they want on the pitch. If their fans are not happy with it, they stay away. That is how the system works and why, frankly, I think the whole Bill is wrong. I realise I have lost that argument, but we are not some insecure South American junta that has to tell private clubs what to do and appoint commissars over sport.

I do not want to be accused of filibustering this one, and I have gone just over three minutes, so I will finish by saying that if we are to have this wretched regulator, let us at least make it as proportionate and as in line with the rest of our law as possible, on which note I will support the rest of the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, because it seems quite sensible to bring any regulator into line with the usual standards of corporate governance.

17:45
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Portrait Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, we did not quite give the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, the debate of under an hour that he hoped for, but I note, for the benefit of the Government Chief Whip when he comes to read the Official Report, that this group is composed entirely of Labour Back-Bench amendments. We have heard the arguments and motivations for tabling the amendments advanced by noble Lords who did so; we have tested their arguments and examined the intended and unintended consequences. That is the work of this Committee, and I am glad we have done it. We had a fruitful and useful debate with quite a lot of agreement between noble Lords about their anxieties and some of the problems that we want to solve, but also some shared anxieties about the problems that might flow from the way in which the noble Lords who tabled the amendments propose doing so.

I start on a point on which I think we all agreed and add my strong support for the amendments in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Blunkett and Lord Knight of Weymouth, and those who signed them, including the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, about independent non-executive directors. They are sensible and constructive amendments. One reason we have been moving quite slowly in this Committee is perhaps, as is often the case, that the Government have listened to the debate and rejected all the amendments tabled so far, urging noble Lords to withdraw them and saying that they are not necessary. Amendments 54 and 157 are good amendments on which to break that trend; there was clear support for them from across the Committee, including the Cross Benches. I hope that, even if the Minister is not willing to accept the amendments as drafted, she will in this case look at how we can strengthen the oversight of the work of clubs through the work of independent non-executive directors.

I am particularly grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Burns, for his contribution and the support he gave to amendments we have previously discussed about the independence of the chief executive and the way in which they are appointed. There is some valuable stuff there for the Government to take away. It is very much linked to the broader debate we have had about diversity. If we can get the non-executive leadership of clubs right, then, as well as improving the scrutiny and accountability of the work of those clubs, we will add to their diversity—not just the diversity of the personnel sitting on the boards but the diversity of thought and the open-mindedness to make sure that the clubs are continuing the work that noble Lords have rightly pointed to. That includes making sure that they continue to be open, inclusive and growth-focused, concerned with attracting new fans to football and making sure that talented people, whoever they are and whatever their background, are able to rise as far up the football pyramid as their talents will take them. I hope the Minister will look favourably on Amendments 54 and 157.

Like other noble Lords, although I appreciate the motivations behind the other amendments in this group, particularly Amendment 156 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton, I am worried about some of the consequences that might flow from it and the way he proposes it. That is not to disagree with what other noble Lords have said about the important issue that he raises, or to lose sight of the huge progress that has been made. I was not around in the 1960s, 1970s or 1980s, of which the noble Lord, Lord Goddard of Stockport, rightly reminded us, but the behaviour of football and football fans and clubs in those decades was often not to the credit of this nation. We should be very proud of the strides that football has made, voluntarily, through the work of its fans and the people who operate the clubs, in being a more inclusive and welcoming environment open to the talents of everybody.

I know why the noble Lord has probed this area. He wants the work that is undeniably still needed to build on that to continue. Like other noble Lords who have probed it, I worry about some of the practicalities and where his amendment, as worded, would take us. There is a material difference between monitoring the diversity of a workforce and the diversity of a fan base and season ticket holders, as I think the noble Lord would acknowledge. I would particularly be concerned about asking fans and ticket buyers to disclose quite sensitive information that they do not presently share with the football team of their choice about their religion, ethnicity, sexuality and so forth. I am not quite sure how, for season ticket holders, that work would build on things.

Amendment 249, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Mann, gives me the opportunity to echo the thanks that my noble friend Lord Moynihan expressed to him for his work on tackling anti-Semitism, not just in football but more broadly. I was in Downing Street when he first took on the role as the Government’s independent adviser on anti-Semitism, so I have seen the work that he has done in a number of spheres to tackle prejudice in that area.

Noble Lords will undoubtedly agree that diversity and inclusion in the workplace can be of benefit not just to staff but to an organisation corporately. The noble Lord, Lord Mann, expressed that this was a probing amendment to see what the Government’s view was and to highlight some of the work that football does. He is right to do so, particularly on that last element, because clubs across the football pyramid have a number of strategies and are doing great work in this area through their own volition. Arsenal, for example, have had a diversity, equality and inclusion plan called Arsenal for Everyone since 2008. Arsenal did that by themselves; they did not require a regulator to force them to publish a plan.

Article 27 of the UEFA club licensing regulations, which detail the standards that clubs must meet before they can participate in a UEFA competition, contains social and environmental sustainability conditions. It states that:

“The licence applicant must establish and implement a social and environmental sustainability strategy in line with the UEFA Football Sustainability Strategy 2030 and relevant UEFA guidelines, for at least the areas of equality and inclusion, anti-racism, child and youth protection and welfare, football for all abilities, and environmental protection”.


That is a wide-ranging list of good causes for it to encourage people to think about. There is not exactly a lack of corporate governance requirements in this area already placed on clubs, and noble Lords have pointed to a number of highly commendable initiatives to build on our work here.

I was in your Lordships’ House on Friday when the noble Lord, Lord Mann, spoke in the archiepiscopal debate that we have in the run-up to Christmas, led by the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York. He warned against the temptation to reach for the legislative lever in every instance to drive forward good work. This is an area where a lot of great work is already being done, to the credit of people in football. I would be wary about measures that are too restrictive or prescriptive that would cut against that.

I will not go into the details of the lively debate that my noble friend Lord Reay and others had, other than to note that these are issues which are not party political; they were raised at Second Reading by the noble Lord, Lord Triesman. My noble friend Lord Hayward’s intervention reminds us not just of his long-standing and pioneering role in championing inclusion in sport but of the fact that these are complicated matters that sport and so many parts of society are grappling with. I do not think that writing something into this Bill in the way that is envisaged would help that, but I am very grateful for the opportunity to have had a detailed debate on this. It has been useful, and I look forward to the Minister’s response.

Baroness Twycross Portrait Baroness Twycross (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my noble friends Lord Blunkett, Lord Bassam of Brighton, Lord Knight of Weymouth, Lord Mann and Lady Taylor of Bolton for tabling these amendments. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, for the role she has played in supporting some of the amendments. It has been useful to have the discussion. The debate is a reminder that, at times, players are often at the brunt of quite a lot of unpleasantness, not least on social media.

I am sure that noble Lords across the Committee will join others who have spoken about the dreadful accident that took place at the weekend involving Michail Antonio, and wish him a speedy and full recovery. I cannot imagine what it was like to take the phone call that the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, had to take. Our thoughts are with him and his family and colleagues.

Good corporate governance is the bedrock of any well-functioning business, and there is agreement on this across the Committee. However, the Government believe that this has been lacking at some clubs to date, and that is why it will be an important part of the regime.

I begin with Amendment 54, in the name of my noble friend Lord Blunkett. While I agree with the intention, I assure my noble friend that ensuring regulated clubs have good corporate governance is already well provided for in the Bill; for example, the mandatory licence condition requiring clubs to report against a new corporate governance code for football clubs. We do not feel it is appropriate to add this level of specificity to the regulator’s objectives. As my noble friend made clear, good governance protects fans and owners. Good corporate governance will contribute to a club’s financial soundness, which is already captured within the objectives in this clause.

Amendment 156, from my noble friend Lady Taylor of Bolton, and Amendment 249, from my noble friend Lord Mann, concern equality, diversity and inclusion. I strongly agree with the principle of these amendments that clubs should be more transparent with regards to equality, diversity and inclusion. However, I believe that Amendment 249 is not necessary. As part of the corporate governance statement mandatory licence condition, all licensed clubs will already be required to report on what action they are taking on equality, diversity and inclusion. The Bill specifically includes equality, diversity and inclusion in its definition of corporate governance. We therefore expect to see recommendations about equality, diversity and inclusion in the regulator’s corporate governance code.

On Amendment 156, as I have outlined, clubs will already be required to report on what action they are taking on EDI. My noble friend Lord Mann mentioned important examples of where clubs are already taking action. I agree with the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, on my noble friend’s contribution, particularly as it relates to anti-Semitism. I also agree with many of the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, in his contribution.

Reporting on the diversity of staff and senior managers would be typical of how these types of transparency measures work. However, regarding the point on season ticket holders, we do not feel that it is the regulator’s place to act here. As a financial sustainability regulator, the regulator’s interest in equality, diversity and inclusion is that it contributes to good corporate decision-making, which in turn makes clubs more sustainable.

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, that, beyond this, it is not for the regulator to get involved in the diversity of a club’s fan base. A club might like to take note if its fan base does not represent its local area. Some examples of clubs reaching out to communities have been mentioned by noble Lords in the course of the debate. There are already actions being taken on fan diversity by clubs, competition organisers and wider stakeholders.

In response to the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, we think that EDI reporting is a good thing. A lack of basic good corporate governance threatens the sustainability of football clubs. We have seen in the past crises at clubs that may have been avoided with some simple improvements to how the club was run. That is why the regulator will introduce a new football club corporate governance code. The regulator will work with the industry to design the code and will support clubs in applying it, in addition to encouraging best practice.

The requirement for clubs to publicly report against this code is designed to increase transparency, scrutiny and accountability. Clubs will have the flexibility to interpret the principles of the code and explain how they have applied them to suit their individual circumstances. We are clear that the regulator will not prescriptively micromanage each club’s board. That is not its role, and would cause a significant burden to the regulator itself and to clubs.

Amendment 157, in the name of my noble friend Lord Knight of Weymouth, seeks to add a further limb to a club’s corporate governance reporting by explaining how it meets the standard of the UK Corporate Governance Code in relation to the appointment of non-executive directors. I thank him for raising this issue and the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, for illustrating why a range of skills—what she referred to as a jigsaw—helps in delivering good governance.

18:00
I hope I can reassure your Lordships’ House that reporting against the UK Corporate Governance Code will not be required, as the independent regulator will develop its own code. That will no doubt take inspiration from existing codes, including the UK Corporate Governance Code as well as others, such as A Code for Sports Governance and the Wates Corporate Governance Principles for Large Private Companies.
Crucially, though, the independent football regulator’s code will be bespoke to football clubs in the football industry and will be produced in consultation with the FA and other stakeholders. Many of the basic principles of good governance are universal, but football clubs are, in so many ways, unique businesses. That is why we believe that a football-specific approach to the UK Corporate Governance Code is preferable here. We do not expect that mandating clubs to report on the process of appointing their non-executive director would necessarily be appropriate, as the code should be principles based. I am happy to meet my noble friend and others to discuss this further, should they find that helpful.
That brings me to my noble friend Lord Blunkett’s other amendment in this group, Amendment 159. As I just touched on, and in response to my noble friend Lord Knight, I reassure my noble friends that we expect that the regulator’s code will include recommendations related to executive and non-executive directors. I also assure my noble friends that providing clubs with guidance to ensure that they have an appropriate governance structure is at the heart of the Bill’s existing corporate governance provisions. We have not listed in detail what the code must contain, as that should be for the regulator to determine in consultation with the industry and perhaps informed by its “state of the game” report.
In designing the code, we expect that the regulator will draw on established corporate governance principles. That is unlikely to include quotas in the way that my noble friend’s amendment suggests—that would be a level of micromanagement that we do not think appropriate here—but good corporate governance principles will be front and centre.
On Amendment 158 by my noble friend Lady Taylor of Bolton, the Government agree that the corporate governance code should cover a club’s decision-making process. Within the definition of corporate governance in the legislation, we believe the wording already appropriately covers that. Paragraph 7(2)(b) of Schedule 5 states that corporate governance includes
“the manner in which the organs of the club conduct themselves”,
and paragraph 7(2)(c) states that it includes
“the requirements imposed on organs of the club”.
That would cover a club’s decision-making process. As part of the code, we expect the regulator to produce high-level principles and what a good decision-making process should look like for clubs.
I would be happy to meet my noble friends to discuss these matters further. I hope they are reassured by the reasons that I have set out and will not press their amendments.
Lord Blunkett Portrait Lord Blunkett (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to my noble friend and I hope to be able to converse with her before Report, purely on the grounds that if you do not have a governing body that consists not only of non-execs, which I note my noble friend Lord Knight’s amendment alluded to as well, but also officers who are the executive directors of a board then it is difficult to progress. There has been unanimity today from all sides of the Chamber in relation to the direction of travel.

We are now two and a half hours or more in, so I will have to follow my own strictures in being very brief. I make it clear that I accept that scrutiny is crucial.

On diversity, I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, that there is a real difference between woke gesturism and downright silliness and a genuine commitment to equality, diversity and inclusion. We must be able to make that distinction, and the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, did so very well. I have to say to him that I had aspirations when I was very young to be the first blind football manager, but it was pointed out to me that I might be better being a referee so that when people shouted, “Get a guide dog!”, I could say, “I’ve got one already”.

It is nice that the noble Lord, Lord Goddard, raised the issue of Michail Antonio, and I am pleased that I had alignment with the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, on this. Michail Antonio once scored a crucial goal with a dislocated collarbone, and we will never forget that. I wish him well. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 54 withdrawn.
Amendment 55 not moved.
Amendment 56
Moved by
56: Clause 6, page 5, line 14, at end insert—
(d) to promote the growth of English football (referred to in this Act as “the growth objective”);(e) to promote and protect financial investment in English football (referred to in this Act as “the financial investment objective”).”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment creates two new objectives the IFR must promote.
Lord Markham Portrait Lord Markham (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I hope that this proves to be a quicker debate, because I would hope that what we are talking about here are not controversial measures but measures that go to the heart of the regulatory framework we are trying to establish. It is a shame that the noble Lord, Lord Addington, is not in his place. Although we are supportive of the principles of regulation, as my noble friend Lord Hayward said, we are trying to make sure that that regulation is set up in the right way.

Our debates in Committee stage so far have all been about the first few pages of the Bill, which are about the regulatory framework and objectives; the point of my Amendment 56 is that if you only have an objective of sustainability, it is one-dimensional and that is not good for the game. I will freely admit that I have spoken to a Premier League club which wrote to me about that—Brentford—and I hope that noble Lords would agree that Brentford is exactly the sort of club we should listen to in this sort of debate, because it is a club that has come through the divisions and is seen as a well-run model club—and one definitely not guaranteed its place in the Premier League. So it has an important contribution to make to this debate.

The letter that Brentford wrote to me and to local MPs says: “a regulatory framework that prioritises stability above all else would be disproportionate. It could mean the regulator financially constraining some Premier League clubs more than others. For Brentford, a club that has risen against the odds to the Premier League, such restrictions risk stifling our ability to grow and compete with larger, established clubs”. That is why I tabled this amendment, to expand the regulator objectives. Otherwise, there is the danger exactly as written in the letter, which I am happy to share with all Members here and which has also been sent to local MPs.

The exact concern of Brentford’s chairman is that, if the regulatory framework is just based on financial sustainability, it risks entrenching the closed-shop nature of the top clubs and will restrict the ability of the Brentfords of the world to compete. From its point of view, having an objective that promotes the growth of all English football, protects financial investment in the game and means that you know you can reap the rewards from investing in a club is very important. Amendment 56 seeks to add this, and is, I hope, uncontroversial, because who would not want to promote growth? We know that that is the Government’s number one objective, and it is fundamental to the Bank of England’s remit and a lot of other regulators also have growth objectives.

In the new clause proposed in my Amendment 58, subsections (1)(a) and (1)(b) refer to the “financial soundness” and “resilience” of clubs and aim to ensure that the regulator takes into account the whole financial picture of clubs, looking at their assets and liabilities—their whole balance sheet—and their ability to meet any future liabilities. In other words, we want a holistic picture of their sustainability. Funnily enough, that is akin to what the Chancellor announced in the Budget about government spending and so-called “persnuffle”—or PSNFL—which looks at assets and liabilities to make sure you have a rounded picture of the health of the Government’s, or the country’s, finances. Amendment 58 tries to encourage a similar approach to looking at the overall wealth of a club and its overall balance sheet strengths.

Proposed new subsection (1)(c) looks to make sure that the heritage of English football, which we all agree is vital to all this, is rounded out in its definition, while proposed new subsection (1)(d) looks at all the things that are key to the health of the overall game. It would make sure that the regulator, when it looks at how it acts in this space, looks at the overall health of the game—the growth of football in terms of TV viewership, matchday audience, fan engagement, number of clubs and number of fans. I shall not repeat the arguments that we made earlier, but noble Lords will be aware that these are the key things—that media rights go to the heart of the value and TV stations around the world pay to back those media rights, for the health of those sorts of objectives that we would like to see it have.

That is why, in introducing this amendment, I am trying to make sure that we have a much more rounded definition, going to the heart of the framework of what we hope the regulator would look to do and have in place. I hope that noble Lords will be able to support what I hope is a very sensible objective and will take on board the concerns of the Brentford chair—if it was only one-dimensional and looking at financial sustainability alone. I hope that the Minister will be able to take those points away for further consideration. I beg to move.

Baroness Brady Portrait Baroness Brady (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I support Amendments 56 and 58, tabled by my noble friend Lord Markham, which together propose critical enhancements to the objectives of the regulator. These amendments seek to establish clear and ambitious goals for the regulator, while ensuring that its powers remain proportionate and carefully defined.

Amendment 56 introduces two new objectives for the regulator: to promote the growth of English football and to promote and protect financial investment in the game. These objectives are not just desirable; they seem to me to be essential, if we are to preserve the vibrancy, competitiveness and international appeal of English football.

The Premier League is the crown jewel of global football. Its growth and success have been driven by significant financial investments, made in good faith and with the legitimate expectation of stable and predictable regulatory conditions. Without that certainty, clubs would not have been able to commit to the infrastructure, youth development or community programmes that are now the pillars of our game. Yet, as currently framed, the regulator’s remit is heavily focused on constraints, restrictions and redistribution. While these may be important, without taking growth into account, they risk creating a chilling effect on the investment that has driven English football to its current heights. To constrain without also providing balance is to risk stagnation or, worse, managed decline.

Amendment 58 complements this by providing detailed definitions of these new objectives. It outlines what growth means in practical terms: increasing TV viewership, matchday attendance, fan engagement, the number of clubs and the number of fans. These are good proxies, in my view, for the growth of football and ensuring that the regulator’s actions are aligned with the long-term health of the game. Although promoting growth and protecting investment are vital, I listened carefully to the Minister’s argument that a growth duty or purpose could in fact be scope-widening. I believe that she indicated that it could place the regulator in conflict with the broader European framework of football governance. This would risk significant repercussions—but only, of course, for those clubs competing in European competitions.

This is one of the tensions at the heart of the Bill. You could have proper balance in the regulatory regime’s design, so that it is de-risked, light-touch, pro-growth and business-friendly and protects this highly successful industry—but, in doing so, you potentially risk the future of a smaller number of clubs which may, one day, be barred from European competition. Alternatively, you could do what the Government have done, and you therefore risk setting up the regulator to be harmful to growth, overly intrusive, risk-averse and dampening to investment—but, in doing so, you are more likely to be compliant with UEFA, although no one has been able to provide a cast-iron guarantee on that.

In supporting these amendments, I urge Ministers to take this opportunity to refine the objectives of the IFR to set it firmly on the path to success. We need to create objectives that support football’s future without overextending the regulator’s reach or compromising the autonomy of competition tools, which must rightly remain the domain of the competitions themselves. I hope that, as we deepen our scrutiny of the Bill, we can find a better balance.

18:15
Lord Jackson of Peterborough Portrait Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I support my noble friends’ amendment, for the obvious reason that, from the beginning of our discussions, we have not substantially defined in the Bill what we mean by “English football”, other than by alighting on the word “sustainability”. We also have not defined what we mean by the “heritage of English football”. That was specified in the impact assessment—in fact, it says on the first page that we do not know what the heritage of English football is.

This is a very helpful amendment from my noble friends Lord Markham and Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, because it at least gives us and the regulator an opportunity to have a firm understanding in the Bill, among all stakeholders in all leagues, of what we mean by the heritage of English football. It is important that it means the tangible and intangible elements that define the unique historical identity of English football. I am surprised that the Government, for whatever reasons, have decided not to adopt that in the Bill and have left it to—

Lord Watson of Invergowrie Portrait Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am a bit surprised, because the Benches opposite have, on several occasions, accused us on this side of trying to extend the reach of the regulator. The noble Lord asked: what is English football? In the Bill English football covers the top five levels—that is the definition. Personally, I think it should go to level six, but it is at level five. It is clear what it means by English football.

Under subsection 1(d) of the proposed new clause, Amendment 58 seeks to increase “the number of clubs”. I do not see how you can increase the number of clubs without it taking in other levels beyond those in the Bill. These amendments seek to extend the role of the regulator, which is rather inconsistent from those opposite.

Lord Jackson of Peterborough Portrait Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

As usual, the noble Lord makes a very pertinent and astute point. I disagree with it, because what we are seeking to do is further define what is in the Bill. There is a lack of definition—there has been since we discussed the issue in relation to Clause 1 a week or so ago. That is the difficulty.

The general point the noble Lord makes is also pertinent, because we are still deciding whether this is a hybrid Bill. It is important that we define English football, because if we do not properly define it, there will be an issue of hybridity. According to the Minister’s letter, as I understand it, it is still only provisionally being ruled as a hybrid Bill, and there is no definitive position.

The point that I was making was that we need a proper framework. The new clause proposed by the amendment would add that definition to the Bill. It would therefore make it a better and more holistic Bill. At the moment, there are significant concerns about the Bill’s enabling powers and Henry VIII powers, and the new wording would go some way—were it to be adopted by the Minister; I live in hope that it might be on Report—to ameliorate that issue. For that reason, I support the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Markham.

Lord Wrottesley Portrait Lord Wrottesley (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I start by offering sincere apologies for not being able to contribute at Second Reading. I am afraid that I had to attend a close friend’s funeral. I did, however, manage to be in the Chamber for the latter part of that debate. I have watched the debate back on Parliament TV, updated myself via Hansard and, where able, attended most of the Committee. I also apologise if parts of what I say might have been more appropriate for Second Reading, but I feel that your Lordships may deserve a bit of background on why I feel privileged to offer some reflections to the Committee on this matter. This may, mercifully, be the only substantial contribution that I make on the Bill.

I declare my interests, as set out in the register, specifically having around 12 years of direct experience in sports governance, but also make an admission. First, I have been a lifelong Chelsea supporter and, as an excepted hereditary, I have of course passed that unfortunate affliction down to my sons and even to my nine year-old daughter who, yes, plays football—although she confessed the other day to having considered the unthinkable: supporting Manchester City. Given Chelsea’s recent form, though, I hope that she will now revert to her inherited team.

I support my noble friend’s amendments that try to define the objectives of the regulator, as well as others that have already sought to address the actual purpose of the Bill. Where I hope we will eventually get to is that something can be financially sound, resilient and sustainable, and grow and be successful. We have already discussed that if sustainability is the sole rationale and motivator for this legislation, sustainability could have a far lower bar and be an inhibitor to growth and success. Given the context of being one of this country’s greatest exports, the success of the English Premier League and now the English Football League is not solely dependent on their sustainability. There is much more to it. I suggest that they are successful not simply because of their sustainability, or unsuccessful because of the lack of it. They are deemed successful because of a whole host of factors, be that results on and off the pitch, financial sustainability, fan engagement or community outreach, to name but a few. Are growth and success not things that we should ask clubs, leagues and all stakeholders to strive for? What enables them to be successful and what should we try to support through the Bill?

In my view, and as we have heard from other noble Lords, the UK is globally successful in the game of football, and the Premier League, the EFL and other successful domestic leagues have grown to a position of global prominence because of various factors, including the game’s heritage and the English language—the lingua franca of football, as indeed it is with most global sports. Football is successful in the UK because of the pro-business environment in this country, which encourages foreign investment into our game and, ironically, is potentially threatened by aspects of the Bill.

We must also credit the consistently strong leadership of the Premier League, its global appeal through strong marketing and its willingness to embrace expertise from abroad in players, coaches and support staff. Some of your Lordships might remember that this pursuit of excellence and diversity was strongly criticised in the first few years of the Premier League’s existence. It was seen as a threat to homegrown player development and that talent progressing up the pathway to the national team—an attitude that I think we can all now agree has been shown up by the recent successes of our national teams.

More broadly, football’s success relies on this country’s position in the world and, yes, the crucial part played by our strong domestic marketplace, characterised by the role that a fiercely loyal fan base has in supporting the leagues and their teams. Above all, it is the ability of so many of the clubs in the UK to build brands around themselves—some of them mega-brands—that has led to five of the top 10 best-supported clubs in their global reach being from the UK, with just one from Germany, one from Italy, one from France and two from Spain. The bottom UK-based team in that top 10, Arsenal, has over 40 million followers on Facebook alone, with a fan base that extends far beyond these shores.

All these factors are more complex and, frankly, equally as important as some of the simpler definitions contained in the Bill. Growth and success are what the Bill should seek to preserve, enable and maybe protect, rather than inhibit. To repeat: the Bill should be about preserving and promoting growth and success, not just ensuring, for instance, sustainability.

Do we measure success simply by sustainability or should we seek a broader, more detailed and more accurate set of definitions—a higher bar as a North Star for this Bill, as suggested by my noble friends Lord Markham and Lord Parkinson in their Amendments 56 and 58? This could be a subtle but fundamental tweak to what this Bill is trying to achieve.

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Portrait Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I will speak to both amendments in this group, to which I have added my name. I am very grateful to my noble friends who have spoken to them, particularly my noble friend Lord Wrottesley, who brings many years’ experience of sports governance. The Committee is grateful to have had his insights. These two amendments attempt to expand the objectives of the regulator under the Bill. These objectives will be fundamental guiding principles by which the regulator will have to abide and will inform its operation from its conception.

Amendment 56 introduces two new objectives into Clause 6. The first is a growth objective and the second a financial investment objective. The growth objective is not intended to encourage a more activist regulator, to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie. We do not want to see the regulator take further action than necessary; we want it to have the growth of the sport constantly in mind so that, when it carries out its other duties, it does not restrict the ability of clubs to look forward and plan for the future. I take his point about our wording on the number of clubs; we want to see the growth of football, so if new clubs spring up and enter the pyramid then he and I would jointly welcome that objective. However, I take the point that this would create more work for the regulator and the regulatory regime. As he will see from our wording in proposed new paragraph (d), what we have suggested as metrics

“includes, but is not limited to”.

It is an attempt to point to some metrics for growth, but if there are better ways of doing it then we are certainly open to hearing them.

By trying to focus the mind of the regulator on growth, we would ensure that, when it is drafting its rules or working on the levy or financial thresholds it may set, it will always have regard to how its work and rules will allow clubs to grow. We mean not financial growth but growth in every aspect. That is why Amendment 58 tries to expand on the meanings of the growth objective and gives a number of examples in the legislation. As it sets out, that objective would include the

“continued … expansion of all aspects of regulated clubs and specified competitions”.

We want clubs to be able to increase their revenues so that they can continue to invest in the future of the game, not just for their own sake but for the whole pyramid, and help the regulator achieve its financial sustainability objective. We also want them to increase their match-day attendance, TV viewership, fan base and more.

The focus on growing the fan base relates to an amendment to which the Committee has already given some thought, which called for the inclusion of current and prospective fans in the stated criteria for the sustainability of English football. In a similar vein, this amendment is trying to stress the importance of expanding the fan base of English football and appealing to future supporters as well as current ones.

I will also address the inclusion of a financial investment objective, as my noble friend Lord Markham set out in moving his amendment. This would seek to ensure that the regulator always considers the impact of its actions on the security of future investment in English football. As all noble Lords will know, professional clubs in this country would not be the world leaders they are today or command the fan base that my noble friend Lord Wrottesley set out without significant investment. This amendment does not attempt to place any restrictions on the regulator but, as with the growth objective, seeks to keep it on the straight and narrow so that it exercises its functions only ever in a manner that genuinely benefits football.

18:30
If any of the regulator’s actions in any way damaged or hindered the ability of clubs to invest or to attract investment, the Bill would not have succeeded in its purpose to promote financial sustainability. This is particularly important with regard to the owners’ and directors’ tests. As noble Lords have pointed out before in this Committee, a new owner can bring huge opportunities to a club—the example of Brighton & Hove Albion has been used extensively—and can completely transform its prospects. These new objectives therefore seek to act as a warning of sorts—a warning to the regulator not to choke off investment or to damage the future of the game. Without an amendment such as this, I worry that the regulator could focus solely on regulating the finances of football clubs without regard to the risks required for them to succeed.
Amendment 58 follows a similar theme to some of the other amendments that my noble friend Lord Markham and I have tabled, which is that of improving clarity in the Bill. As we and others have said before, there are many areas of the Bill that are rather vague: terms, objectives and duties are not clearly defined and, as such, open to a wide range of interpretations or misinterpretations. As with our amendments on the meanings of sustainability and fans, to which we have given lots of time but not yet received the clarity and answers we sought, this amendment takes what the Government have written in their Explanatory Notes and simply puts it in the Bill. As I said on those other definitions used by the Government, if they are good enough to be used elsewhere, I am keen to hear why they should not be in the Bill.
For instance, on the heritage objective, I hope that the Minister will agree that it is helpful to say in the Bill that it includes both tangible and intangible aspects. As she will know from her work in the department, the UK recently ratified the 2003 UNESCO convention on intangible heritage, and her department is now leading some exciting work to get people to bring forward examples of intangible heritage. It seems to me that football is rife with examples that people might put forward for inscription on that UNESCO list, so I am interested in why we should not put that definition in the Bill to make sure that it is clearly in the mind of the regulator and all those doing the work and is not just hidden away in the Explanatory Notes.
This is particularly important when it comes to the financial soundness objective. On its own, “financial soundness” does not mean very much. Without an expanded definition—whether that is the one that my noble friend Lord Markham and I have put forward or one of the Government’s counterpropositions—I worry that the regulator could take that term to mean anything from limiting expenditure to asking clubs to release a quarterly financial statement. The Bill would be improved by more precision and greater clarity here.
It is also relevant to how we judge the regulator’s success. An objective is a goal that one wishes to achieve, so the objectives in Clause 6 are measures that can be used to determine how well the new regulator is performing its duties. But, if that is to happen, we will need a greater sense of what we all expect from the regulator when we are analysing its performance against these benchmarks.
That is why this amendment specifies that financial soundness
“means a measure of a club’s expected ability to continue meeting its liabilities and debts in the future”.
That gives us all a bit more with which to work. We will know that the objective has been achieved if all regulated clubs are in a position in which they have sufficient capital and cash flow to service their debts and meet their future liabilities.
As I have said, we are open to further discussion on the wording, but I hope that the noble Baroness sees what we are trying to achieve through these amendments in giving the Bill more clarity and precision, and some finer metrics by which the work of the regulator can be judged.
Baroness Twycross Portrait Baroness Twycross (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Markham, for Amendments 56 and 58. I look forward to reading the letter to which he referred when it is forwarded to the Committee.

On Amendment 56, while we appreciate the intent of the amendment and agree that English football should continue to be as successful as it has been, we do not believe the amendment is necessary to safeguard this. The growth of English football over the past 30 years and the financial investment in it have been widely regarded as a huge success and have turned it—as has been noted by a number of noble Lords across the Committee—into a global export. However, in pursuing such growth and investment, systemic issues have grown throughout English football which justify regulation. Some noble Lords have suggested that football’s growth is evidence that regulation is not needed, but these two things are not mutually exclusive. English football is both successful and fragile, with issues of sustainability throughout the pyramid.

We have discussed the reasons why the game needs regulating at some length, so I am not going to go through them again, but the main aim of the Bill is to address these issues to ensure financial soundness and resilience of clubs and to safeguard the heritage of English football—all things that football has shown itself unable to do. On growth and attracting investment, on the other hand, football has already shown itself to be incredibly good at both those things and does not need, in our view, a statutory regulator to promote them. Indeed, as is clear from its articles of association, “promoting” the game is one of the objectives for which the FA is established.

Noble Lords have raised concerns about breaching UEFA and FIFA’s statutes. In my view, stepping on the FA’s toes here is exactly the sort of thing that might risk that. That is why we do not believe that the regulator needs primary objectives to actively pursue growth and financial investment. However, the Bill already makes provision to safeguard these features. As part of its general duties, the regulator must have regard to the desirability of avoiding impacts on important outcomes in football—domestic sporting competition, the competitiveness of our clubs against international clubs, and investment into football—rather than a general growth objective.

The bespoke and novel duties in Clause 7 acknowledge the specific market features that have contributed to English football’s growth and will be key to its continued success. Much of the success of English football has come from investment and exciting competition, and we do not believe the Bill will in any way deter this. Indeed, a stable and more certain regulatory environment will be more likely to attract investors. These amendments would require the regulator to bring into scope anything that relates to the growth of English football. This would include things like broadcasting revenues, transfer fees, sponsorship deals and many other areas. Not only would this dramatically widen the scope but the regulator would also be required to become actively involved in these areas.

My noble friend Lord Watson of Invergowrie highlighted that these amendments would broaden the scope of the regulator. We cannot on the one hand warn against scope creep and over-intervention in a successful free market and on the other hand call for a statutory regulator to be tasked with growing the market. Regulators exist to address specific problems that the market cannot address itself. Football has a sustainability problem and not a growth one.

On Amendment 58 specifically, the additional detail in subsection (1)(a) to (c) in the noble Lord’s proposed new clause is already included in the Explanatory Notes which cover heritage. Explanatory Notes provide illustrative detail about the intention behind legislation and not drafting intended for the Bill. As the noble Lord will appreciate, the purpose of Explanatory Notes is to provide additional illustrative detail. However, this kind of detail is not appropriate for the face of the legislation, because good legislation should be clear and concise, and the current drafting is in line with that ambition.

I want also to draw noble Lords’ attention to the letter I sent to the noble Baroness, Lady Evans of Bowes Park, on this same topic of a growth duty. A copy of that letter was also placed in the House Libraries. For the reasons I have set out, I hope that the noble Lord will not press his amendments.

Lord Markham Portrait Lord Markham (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank noble Lords for their contributions, and the Minister for replying. Before I come to address what has been said, I thank my noble friends for their contributions and especially my noble friend Lady Brady for her point that there are concerns about UEFA competitions as well that we are seeking to address in this.

Although I did not hear anyone say that these were not desirable objectives, I heard two reasons not to introduce them. First, the Minister said that we are already successful on investment and the Bill will not deter it. I am afraid that is where there is a fundamental disagreement, because the Bill introduces new aspects to this. It gives the regulator responsibility to make sure clubs are sustainable and says that the regulator can look at this through things such as the parachute payments and the solidarity payments. That fundamentally changes the investment proposition in clubs. The letter from the Brentford chair makes the point, as have others, that clubs would be much less likely to invest in new players and in resources if they did not have the safety net of parachute payments if they were to go down. That will directly affect investment in clubs via the change in the laws that we are talking about and the responsibilities of the regulator to look only at sustainability. It is the same for solidarity payments. We are changing the playing field and moving the goalposts, so we cannot expect everything to go on as normal. That will inevitably affect the investment proposition, so it will impact the amount of money we see going into the game.

That comes on to the second point that was raised about why we should not introduce these amendments: that we are somehow trying to expand the regulator’s duties, which goes counter to everything we have said so far about it being light touch. That is not what we are trying to do. We are trying to make sure that the regulator will have more than one objective when it looks at the measures it can take. If it has only one objective, about sustainability, we hope it will interpret it broadly, but I could make all clubs sustainable tomorrow by saying that all the Premier League money should be distributed. That would do it. It would give everyone loads of money, it is completely sustainable and the regulator could say, “That’s fantastic, job done”. But we know it would fundamentally harm the whole structure and the whole environment.

I do not think for one moment that a regulator would be as unwise as that, but the main point of what we are trying to do is to set out what we believe are the right objectives. As I mentioned, the Government have done that with the Bank of England and given it growth objectives alongside inflation objectives. They have done it with Ofwat and with Ofgem. They have given all of them their regulatory requirements and a growth objective. We are trying to make sure that the regulator is wise in any measures it puts in place by always having other objectives that are for the good of the game. That is not increasing its reach; it is just making sure that it has more than one objective. I hope this is something we will be able to talk about further.

Lord Hayward Portrait Lord Hayward (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Was my noble friend as surprised as I was by the Minister’s use of the phrase that the Bill should be clear and concise? Is not the problem we have been trying to tackle precisely that there is a complete lack of clarity in a Bill that is anything but concise?

Lord Markham Portrait Lord Markham (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Yes, and I thank my noble friend for exactly that point. It is about the clarity of the objective. The most important thing we can all do as legislators is set down what we think the regulator should do. That is why we spent three days trying to work out exactly what we want. It is fundamental to everything we are trying to do. That is why it is taking time. I hear reasons such as, “It’s not necessary”, but why not make it an objective? If the regulator is going to do it anyway then fair enough, but why not be sure that it will take growth and success as its key North Star in all this? With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 56 withdrawn.
Amendment 57 not moved.
Clause 6 agreed.
Amendment 58 not moved.
Clause 7: The IFR’s general duties etc
Amendment 59
Moved by
59: Clause 7, page 5, line 16, leave out “, so far as reasonably practicable,”
Lord Markham Portrait Lord Markham (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I hope that this one will be simpler. A lot of the amendments in this group are just trying to make sure that there is more specificity; I go back to my noble friend Lord Hayward’s previous point about making sure there is absolute clarity on what we want the regulator to do. Amendment 59 would take out

“so far as reasonably practicable”

because we want to make sure that there are no areas of greyness. We think that these are things the regulator must do.

18:45
In Amendment 61, as mentioned in the previous debate, we want to make sure that the regulator must always advance the growth objective in everything it does. As I mentioned before, the Bank of England and all our other regulators have a growth duty alongside their other objectives.
My noble friend Lord Maude is not here to speak to his Amendment 61A. It would make sure that, where possible—we spoke about this earlier—there are effective existing competition structures with their own regulatory rules, such as the rules on financial fair play. It says that, first and foremost, the regulators should look to those bodies and make sure that they are effective in what they are doing. If they are doing it and they have it covered, we should rely on them to carry on doing it rather than trying to come in over the top of them.
Amendments 64 and 67 are similar in terms of trying to avoid the regulator having an adverse impact on competition between clubs and between the Premier League and the EFL. They go to the heart of many of the concerns around UEFA that we have heard about in previous debates. UEFA is very clear that it does not want regulators impacting the competitiveness of one club against another but, as per our previous debates, giving the regulator the ability to alter the parachute payment system absolutely will have an impact on clubs’ investment and competitiveness. It will have adverse effects that will not only impact the attractiveness of the football but potentially put us in hot water with UEFA. Amendment 64 tries to make sure that the inherent nature of the game of football, which involves sporting risk and jeopardy, is taken into account.
Amendment 69 seeks to make sure that the regulator must have regard to the Section 6 objectives that, funnily enough, are set out in Clause 6. Again, they are fundamental to the good governance of the game.
This is a very sensible tidying up of language, trying to get the exact clarity that I know noble Lords want from this debate. As such, I hope that this will be quite a simple conversation at this point. I beg to move.
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Portrait Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Markham for setting out the amendments in this group and, in his absence, my noble friend Lord Maude of Horsham. He tabled some of these amendments but, as we heard earlier today, is unable to be with us to speak to them.

This group of amendments concerns the general duties of the independent football regulator. Its role is to ensure the long-term sustainability, fairness and competitiveness of football in the UK; that is vital. The regulator is entrusted with overseeing the interests of clubs, players, fans and other key parties in the sport, so its role is invaluable. It is critical, therefore, that we lay out clearly and concisely, if we can, its duties and responsibilities.

The amendments in this group seek to provide the independent football regulator with a clear and effective framework in which to carry out its responsibilities, and to strike the right balance between governance, competition and the continued growth of the sport.

I speak in support of Amendment 61, which would introduce a duty for the new regulator to advance the growth objective. The whole Committee can agree on wanting football to flourish, expand its reach, and continue to thrive both on and off the pitch. That is the intention of Amendment 61 and the growth objective. Football’s growth, in participation and in financial sustainability, is critical for its future. The amendment before us would ensure that the regulator’s actions remain firmly aligned with advancing football’s expansion, ensuring that the sport continues to thrive and serve the interests of all involved, from grass roots to the professional game.

Amendment 59 proposes removing the phrase

“so far as reasonably practicable”

from Clause 7. This would complement Amendment 61 by strengthening the regulator’s mandate. By removing what is superfluous and ambiguous language, we would help to ensure that the regulator is not constrained by excessively cautious qualifiers. Instead, it would be given a clearer, more explicit duty to act decisively in line with its core responsibilities, including the imperative of promoting growth in the football sector. In the previous debate, we proposed additional wording that the Government did not need; here, we are seeking to help concision by striking out terms that we think are ambiguous and superfluous.

Amendment 61A, tabled by my noble friend Lord Maude of Horsham, highlights the importance of the independent regulator in working within existing competition structures where they are already operating effectively. The new regulator should not interfere unnecessarily with systems that are working well and delivering positive outcomes. Instead, it must focus on enhancing and supporting those structures, ensuring that they remain adequate and capable of meeting the needs of the game. That would prevent the duplication of regulatory functions and ensure maximum efficiency.

My noble friend Lord Maude’s Amendment 64 seeks to safeguard the integrity of football competitions by ensuring that the football regulator avoids actions that could undermine the important work and effort of competition organisers. His amendment would set a useful boundary between the regulator and the autonomy of clubs. Additionally, it would ensure that the independent football regulator does not conflict with the existing rules set by competition organisers. These protections are important for preserving the competitive spirit of football, which drives both the sporting and commercial success of the game. By ensuring that the regulator respects the frameworks that are already established, these amendments would permit football to evolve without unnecessary disruption and foster an environment where the sport can flourish at all levels.

My noble friend Lord Markham’s Amendment 67, which I have signed, seeks to ensure that the independent regulator avoids actions that could undermine competition. That competitive spirit is fundamental to football’s success, both in the excitement engendered among fans and the drive for clubs to grow and innovate. This amendment seeks to ensure that regulatory actions do not unintentionally harm what is such an essential element of the sport.

Finally, Amendment 69 seeks to strengthen the clarity and focus of the regulator’s mandate by ensuring that it operates consistently with the objectives outlined in Clause 6. Clause 7(3) states that the regulator must have regard to its regulatory principles, the “state of the game” report, the football governance statement and any guidance published. Curiously, though, it does not state that the regulator must have regard to its objectives under Clause 6. If the objectives are to mean anything, surely the Bill should try to create a duty for the regulator to have regard to those objectives in exercising its functions. I am curious as to whether that is a gap that we could close here.

The amendments in this group work together to provide the new independent football regulator with a clear, direct and effective framework for fulfilling its duties. They seek also to set out distinct boundaries and make sure that the regulator’s powers do not encroach on the competitive spirit of the clubs. I hope the Minister thinks that, in doing that, they strike the right balance between regulation and freedom. I look forward to her thoughts on this.

Baroness Twycross Portrait Baroness Twycross (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Markham and Lord Maude of Horsham, for tabling these amendments and the noble Lords, Lord Markham and Lord Parkinson, for speaking to the amendments in the absence of the noble Lord, Lord Maude.

I start with Amendment 59, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Markham. The regulator’s purpose is to protect and promote the sustainability of English football. To deliver this, the legislation sets out three clear objectives: club financial soundness, systemic financial resilience and heritage. It absolutely follows that we would expect it to always act with that purpose and those objectives in mind.

This amendment would have consequences for both the regulator and the industry. The result is that the regulator could face considerably more risk of legal challenge, even if it acted reasonably and in good faith in a way that it intended to advance its objectives. If the regulator always had to prove that any action it took was directly compatible with its purpose and would advance an objective, this would introduce a considerable burden on the regulator and the cost would ultimately be paid for by industry and, potentially, indirectly by fans. We are confident that Clause 7 as drafted appropriately constrains the regulator to act in line with its purpose and objectives without introducing unnecessary, costly and restrictive procedural burdens.

I turn to Amendment 61, also in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Markham. As set out in the previous group, we appreciate the intent of amendments on this topic and agree that English football should continue to be as successful as it has been, but we do not believe that a growth objective is necessary to safeguard this. The sole aim of the Bill is to address issues that football has shown itself unable to resolve to ensure the financial soundness of clubs and the resilience of English football, and to safeguard the heritage of English football. As with the previous amendments in group 3, this amendment would dramatically widen the scope of the regulator, which is not something the Government wish to do. In order to satisfy the duty that this amendment proposes to always advance growth in every action it takes, the regulator would end up intervening on issues that affect growth, rather than effectively solving the problems it has been set up to tackle.

On Amendments 61A and 64, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Maude of Horsham, we are confident that the Bill is already clear that competition organisers will not be unduly restricted in how they manage their competitions. The regulator has a clear regulatory principle to co-operate constructively with competition organisers and to recognise the wider footballing context, including existing competition-specific rules. Let me be clear: the regulator will not be deferring to the leagues or their rules, but it is in no one’s interests for there to be conflict. The regulator will not be standing in the way of clubs’ ambitions. Provided they do so prudently, we have always been clear that clubs will be able to invest, spend and take calculated risks. This is reflected in the legislation.

On Amendment 67, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Markham, while I understand the desire to explicitly protect the financial interests of the leagues, this amendment is unnecessary given the existing statutory duties including in the Bill. As I mentioned, the Bill already requires the regulator to consider the competitiveness of regulated clubs, alongside any potential adverse effects on financial investment. Clearly, these things impact on the competitiveness and success of the leagues themselves. Additionally, where we consider it relevant to specific functions of the regulator, there are explicit requirements for it to consider the potential impact on the finances of the leagues. For example, as part of the backstop process, the regulator has a specific duty not to choose a proposal that would place an undue burden on the commercial interests of either league.

Finally, on Amendment 69, in the name of noble Lord, Lord Markham, I reassure the noble Lord that the desired intent is already achieved by the wording of Clause 7(1). This states that that the regulator

“must, so far as reasonably practicable”,

advance the regulator’s objectives when exercising its functions. To meet this duty to advance its objectives, the regulator would have to have regard to its objectives, so the intent of the amendment is already achieved.

For the reasons I have set out, I am not able to accept these amendments and ask that noble Lords do not press them.

19:00
Lord Markham Portrait Lord Markham (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the Minister. I will not go around the same loop again. A lot of this is again around the growth and success objectives . We rehearsed those arguments quite well in the previous groups. However, I would question a new point that the Minister made: that, somehow, they would open up the regulator to legal challenge. I am not sure that I agree with that. I do not believe that the growth objectives that Ofwat, Ofgem, other regulators and the Bank of England have open them up to any more legal challenge. It is just saying that it is a criterion and trying to make sure that in any decisions they make, they have more than one objective that they are seeking to fulfil. I will not go beyond that and rehearse the arguments, but I thank the Minister and beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 59 withdrawn.
Amendments 60 to 64 not moved.
Amendment 65
Moved by
65: Clause 7, page 5, line 26, at end insert—
“(d) adverse impact on women’s football.”
Lord Mann Portrait Lord Mann (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, Amendment 65 is not about whether women’s football should be covered by the Bill; it is about something quite different. I will very briefly illustrate it with an issue that would arise at a regulated club, the National League Solihull Moors Football Club, should this Bill go through. I do not know whether the issue has been resolved and, in a sense, that is rather incidental to my point.

The issue, from what I have ascertained, is that Solihull Moors has a women’s football team as well as a men’s football team and, because of that, with a licence, it would be regulated under the men’s football team. The women’s football team would be quite separate, but the women’s football team plays in the same complex as the men’s team. Also, the business had been structured with a set of community interest companies that were required to break even. The one that the women’s football team played on did not break even, which led to them being thrown off their pitch. However, the facility had been part-funded by the Football Foundation.

That is a particular comment on Solihull Moors, but also a real example from this year. Using it as an illustration, in that situation, where funding has been received and a women’s club has been, as some claim, thrown off so they are not able to play on a facility, is this an issue for the regulator? It should be. The regulator could, for example, look at whether the moneys that were given by the Football Foundation should be repaid. While it is a small issue in monetary terms, if you are a women’s football club and you are thrown off the pitch, it is a big issue. So the reason for tabling this amendment is to see whether this kind of situation is covered. If it is not, I suggest it requires an amendment similar to or the same as the one I have tabled. I beg to move.

Lord Markham Portrait Lord Markham (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I rise in support and to give an example of a similar unintended consequence. This is around the 3 pm kick-off on Saturday games and not allowing those to be televised. Again, that was set up exactly because Premier League games, if they were televised, would impact the attendance of the Championship League and other EFL games, because they knew that people would be watching those games instead. Within that regulatory framework, they had a view on the impact of how that one competition could impact the other competitions.

In a similar way, what the noble Lord, Lord Mann, is trying to do is to add, in proposed new paragraph (d), the impact on the women’s game and make sure that it is one of the considerations taken into account. Without it, you could be taking action around the men’s games in the competition that has those unintended consequences—so I support it.

Lord Addington Portrait Lord Addington (LD)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Mann, is one of those that reflects real life. Anybody who has set up any club of any structure at any point knows that, if you are working between two bodies—I have seen it very much at junior level between rugby and cricket clubs—their interests seem suddenly to contradict each other under a new set of circumstances. I hope that the Minister will have a reassuring answer about the flexibility and ability of the regulator to intervene and try to find a way forward, because this is a real problem that will occur every now and again. It is probably not a structural thing, but “Is the flexibility there?” is a genuine question. I do not think any of us wants one of our regulators to suddenly start having a negative effect.

My Amendment 70 in this group basically says that support should be available for the women’s game. We have already covered this issue at some length, so I will not go much further than to say that we should not exclude giving the women’s game some help, because it is developing and going forward, and it is very important to the foreseeable future of developing elite-level sport in this country. We should address that by having another look and asking what the capacity is.

I see that the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, is ready to speak to her amendment. Can we find out what flexibility there is and what the regulator is seen to be doing to handle these not quite down-the-line situations, where there are positive outcomes that we hope would be facilitated by it?

Baroness Taylor of Bolton Portrait Baroness Taylor of Bolton (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I will say just a word, because Amendment 72 in my name and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, is included in this group. We have, to a certain extent, discussed this already, because this reflects on the kind of support that clubs would get were they to seek a licence, get a provisional licence or try to comply with the regulations that will be there. The Minister was very reassuring when we discussed this previously, but I hope that, at some stage during the passage of the Bill through either House, we can get a little more detail on how this may work in practice.

Baroness Grey-Thompson Portrait Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I have put my name to Amendment 72, but shall comment briefly on the amendments in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Mann and Lord Addington.

We need to be clear that this is a regulator for the men’s game, not the game of football. I am really excited to see the growth of women’s football; it has a massive impact on society. Some 80% of women are not fit enough to be healthy, and football is one of those sports that connects and is changing the relationship between girls and physical activity and sport. I was at the Wales v Northern Ireland women’s game the other week and the groups of teenage girls coming to support in a way that they might not support the men’s game, and the little girls dressed in their Welsh kit and goalkeeper’s kit, was a really beautiful sight to see.

But the women’s game needs to be protected and nurtured, and I do not want to see any unintended consequences of regulation or anything that makes it harder for women to be involved in what is an incredible game. I am meeting the Minister this week, and this is one of things I will be discussing with her.

Lord Goddard of Stockport Portrait Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I will be very brief. In my view, these are proper probing amendments about unintended consequences—such as with Solihull—and the need to support women to get to the elite level, as well as the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson. This is not about having an argument or asking the Government to rethink anything; these are truly probing amendments asking the Minister and those who work on the Bill to look at these points and make the Bill better. I am so thankful for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Markham, in that. This group gets to the nub of an issue that can be dealt with very quickly.

Lord Moynihan Portrait Lord Moynihan (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will pick up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Goddard, and refer to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Mann. My understanding is that the regulator cannot take the women’s game into account, even where, in theory, the accounts may relate to both. Indeed, on the face of the Bill, as I read it—I look forward to the Minister’s clarification—it would be possible for clever accounting to move money and, indeed, even financial exposure, across to the women’s game and therefore exclude it from the consideration of the regulator. I hope I am wrong in that. I can see that there would be ample opportunity for approaches to the accounts and the financial strength of clubs to be manipulated in a way that I am sure was not the intention of the Government or the regulator. The Minister will no doubt clarify that when she comes to respond.

This goes back to the possibility of amending the scope of the Bill in the future. In other words, as the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, said, this is exclusively a men’s regulator. I was a bit concerned about the language in the report to Parliament and to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which was prepared by the department, recommending that women’s football be “given a chance” to self-regulate. That is rather a condescending phrase to the sport. Therefore, it is not surprising that a number of people in the sport have been rather concerned that the women’s game has not been given equal opportunity. UEFA has brought in solidarity payments for the Women’s Champions League clubs to support the growth of the women’s game. That is not the case in the UK. I can completely see the arguments that people like Kelly Simmons have made: if the benefits of the regulator are as strong as the Minister has expressed to the Committee, then it could enhance and expand club licensing criteria to raise standards in women’s football—the performance of women’s football as well as medical and welfare provision.

If the Bill offers so strong a benefit to the sport as the Minister makes out, it is unfortunate that the women’s game should be put to one side and simply told it is being given a chance to prove itself and, in due course, might see the benefits that the Minister says exist in this Bill for football. That is my biggest concern. I think it is a concern felt by many in women’s football; I see the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, nodding in assent.

It is important for the Minister to address both the role of the regulator in relation to what a football club does to promote women’s football and the wider implication that many in women’s football feel: that they are being somehow excluded from the great benefits we have regularly heard about in Committee from the Minister about the game as a whole.

I hope the Minister will respond to both those points; that would be helpful to the Committee. If they are not positive responses, then this will perhaps be something we should return to at a later stage, to make sure that the women’s game is not disadvantaged by the introduction of the regulator.

Baroness Brady Portrait Baroness Brady (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I rise to speak on Amendments 65, 70 and 72, which focus on ensuring financial support for the women’s game and protecting it from many adverse impacts resulting from the Bill.

While I respect the intention behind these amendments, I believe that they are not strictly necessary. I want to underline the significant commitment that many Premier League clubs already have to the women’s game. A vast majority of Premier League clubs operate women’s teams—including West Ham, which had a fantastic 5-2 win yesterday. We do that not as an obligation but as a genuine commitment to growing and professionalising women’s football. We all want our women’s teams to succeed, thrive and contribute to the broader success story of English football.

The truth is that not one WSL team makes any money—actually, not one even breaks even. They all lose between £1.5 million and £5 million a year, so they are currently wholly reliant on the men’s teams playing in the Premier League for their funding. The Premier League’s commitment is not just rhetorical; it is backed by meaningful action. Premier League clubs have provided substantial financial support and shared their expertise, facilities and resources. A recent example of that is a £20 million interest-free loan, which was made available to the women’s NewCo to help build a robust foundation for future growth, alongside a co-operation agreement with the Premier League to assist with growing, commercialising and attracting investment to the women’s game. The Premier League also invests £6 million in over 70 emerging talent centres across the country, to bring brilliant and diverse talent into the women’s and girls’ game from the widest possible range of backgrounds.

19:15
Amendment 65, which seeks to mandate financial support from the Premier League to the women’s game, risks formalising what is already happening voluntarily and through market forces. The Premier League’s support for the women’s game is driven not by regulation or compulsion, but by a genuine desire and economic incentive to see it flourish. Turning this collaboration into a mandatory obligation could undermine the good will and partnership that has been so central to the recent success of the women’s game.
Amendment 70, which seeks to protect the women’s game from the adverse impacts of the Bill, raises a revealing point. By proposing such a safeguard, the amendment implicitly recognises the likelihood that the Bill could have a dampening effect on the investment in football, providing less money in the pot to share. That is a concern that I share. The women’s game is at a crucial stage of growth, where it needs the freedom to attract investment and build its commercial potential. The very last thing it needs is to be encumbered by the unintended consequences of regulation designed for a different set of challenges in the men’s game.
Finally, I must highlight an irony in this debate. While we discuss how to best protect the women’s game from the adverse impacts of regulation, we are simultaneously debating how to impose new regulatory burdens on the men’s game. These burdens risk stifling the very investment and innovation that made the Premier League the envy of the world. The Minister mentioned growth in football. If you ask the French or Italians about their growth, it would be a very different story, so we must never be complacent.
The Government’s own view is that the women’s game should have the opportunity to grow and self-regulate, not least by remaining autonomous, free and unburdened by regulation. They understand that, for the women’s game to professionalise and grow, it needs to invest ahead of revenues and take calculated risks. If we believe that commercial freedom and investment are the keys to the success of the women’s game, I have to ask: why are we so quick to strip those principles away from the men’s game? Why do the Government appear so resistant to reasonable amendments that will provide checks, balances and guard-rails as we take this leap into the unknown?
Lord Hayward Portrait Lord Hayward (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I will follow on from a comment by the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, on the contribution made by the men’s game and men’s clubs to the women’s team in the same club.

The noble Lord, Lord Addington, and I worked with others to ensure that the women’s rugby tournament was brought to this country next year. We are pleased to say that we were successful in doing that, but it needed assistance from the Government and it received a grant.

The Minister has, on a number of occasions, referred to the levy being proportionate, and I have been critical of her on this. It is important that an indication is given as to whether money paid by a football club—let us take West Ham as an example—to support the women’s club will be taken into consideration by the regulator when assessing what payment should be made overall to the levy. There would be a serious danger that, if that money is included in the regulator’s assessment of what is proportionate, football clubs will, quite naturally, reduce the amount of money that they give to the women’s game.

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Portrait Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, like others, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mann, for moving his Amendment 65, which probes an important area and a potentially concerning consequence. I am grateful for the example that he raised of Solihull Moors and look forward to the reassurances that I hope the Minister will give. However, even if she gives those reassurances, the noble Lord’s amendment is modest and I wonder whether there is a case—belt and braces—for us to make an amendment saying that the regulator should work in a way that does not have an adverse impact on women’s football. That feels sensible, even if the Minister does not share the concern about the specific instance that her noble friend has raised.

Like others who have spoken, we on these Benches are full of praise and excitement for the role that women’s football and women’s sport more generally play in our society. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, spoke powerfully about the inspiration that it is to many young women and girls, the transformative impacts that it has on their health and so much more. I am pleased that we have come such a long way from the days of old, when women were banned from playing professional football—a ban that was lifted only in 1971, but the effect of which can still be seen and has reverberated through the development of the women’s game for generations.

The FA took on the administration of women’s football only 30 years ago, in 1994, and the Women’s Super League became a fully professional league only in 2018. But, as noble Lords have pointed out, recent years have seen some striking, powerful and inspirational examples of the growth in the women’s game and, hearteningly, in the interest and appreciation that it is getting right across society. Correspondingly, there has been an enormous increase in the attention that it has garnered, with 77,000 fans attending the women’s FA Cup final last year. I know that all noble Lords fondly remember the astounding victory achieved by the Lionesses in the 2022 European Championship.

However, there is a concern, as has been expressed in this debate, that regulating women’s football now might not be the right moment in the development of the women’s game and women’s clubs. The Raising the Bar report, led by Karen Carney, stated:

“Given its stage of development, continued growth of matchday, broadcast and sponsorship revenue—with a view for the women’s game to become independently sustainable—is the right way to incentivise continued long term investment by clubs”.


Women’s football is obviously, and regrettably, not at the same stage of development as the men’s game—the men’s game had such a significant head start in terms of the professional apparatus around it—and the relative losses incurred by clubs are not in the same ballpark. Thus issues with financial stability are not comparable. There is recognition of that, although there was some surprise and, at Second Reading, a number of noble Lords from across the House rightly mentioned the women’s game as an area for us to be mindful of, so it was helpful to have had this debate.

Another issue is the level of investment that women’s football requires. As my noble friend Lady Brady pointed out, for women’s teams to come closer to the men’s game, significant financial investment will be needed. We are therefore right to question whether that is best served by and encouraged through this regulatory regime. However, I note the paradoxes that my noble friend highlighted in making that point and applying it to the women’s game, while conceding the argument in relation to the men’s game. I therefore understand why, at present, women’s football might not be included in the scope of this new regulatory regime.

However, it is useful to have had this debate and it would be useful to understand the Government’s intent here. Perhaps the Minister can explain the means by which the women’s game might be brought closer to the men’s game and how, if that happens and it falls into some of the same mistakes that we have seen in the men’s game, the women’s game might be captured by this regulatory regime. On the flipside, if the men’s regime learns from the women’s game and is able to regulate itself better, would that mean that there will be a lightening of the regulatory burden or are we past the point of no return for the men’s game? It would be interesting to hear that.

Like my noble friend Lord Moynihan, I slightly regret the wording of giving the women’s game a “chance” to regulate itself, but I am sure from looking at the Government’s accompanying notes that it is not meant pejoratively.

Amendment 72 from the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, sits slightly uneasily with the others because it is not just about the women’s game, but she explained why she has tabled that amendment and why she hopes to hear a bit from her noble friend the Minister. What she is seeking here is a welcome addition; it is only right that the regulator should be required to give assistance to clubs that are seeking licences. One of the themes that has been drawn out by many noble Lords in our scrutiny so far is the issue of how clubs will be able to adjust to these new licensing requirements. If the regulator does not implement this scheme in the correct manner, clubs will suffer, so it is only right that it should provide assistance to clubs to allow them effectively and efficiently to understand the new requirements that the Bill and its regulatory regime bring about. I will listen with interest to the Minister’s response to her noble friend on that and the other amendments in this group.

Baroness Twycross Portrait Baroness Twycross (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my noble friends Lord Mann and Lady Taylor of Bolton, the noble Lord, Lord Addington, and the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, for tabling these amendments, including on the important issue of the women’s game.

I reassure noble Lords that we are completely aligned on our commitment to women’s football. As I have said previously in your Lordships’ House, I was not allowed to play football when I was at school. I could not be more delighted that my nieces can not only play football but take for granted that they can, and that they are encouraged to do so. I am as excited at the growth in women’s football as is the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson. I asked a number of questions similar to those that noble Lords asked, so I hope that the answers I have had, which form a large part of my speaking notes tonight, will provide them the reassurance that I was provided when I asked those questions in preparation for your Lordships’ Committee.

At present, the regulator will not cover women’s football. In answer to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, the regulator will not be concerned with women’s teams’ accounts even where they are affiliated to men’s clubs. However, it is empowered to obtain and consider information from a club’s wider corporate group. I reassure the noble Lord that clubs should not be able to circumvent requirements through creative accounting in the manner that the noble Lord described as potentially being an issue.

The regulator will be concerned only with the sustainability of the clubs which will be within the scope of its regime. Women’s football is in such an exciting place and we really do hope that it will be able to grow and succeed in a sustainable way. Indeed, the wider football ecosystem already provides financial support to the women’s game—a point made eloquently by the noble Baroness, Lady Brady.

The FA has a 2024-28 women’s and girls’ football strategy, which states that by 2028 it will

“secure significant additional funding and investment to support women’s and girls’ grassroots football and pyramid”,

among other things. In addition, as the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, said, the Premier League has provided a £20 million interest-free loan to the Women’s Professional Leagues Limited to help build strong foundations for the women’s game.

Lord Moynihan Portrait Lord Moynihan (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Can the Minister clarify what she has just said? Is she saying that the regulator would not be able to intervene in the example given by the noble Lord, Lord Mann, in introducing his amendment?

Baroness Twycross Portrait Baroness Twycross (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

On the example of Solihull, the response I made related specifically to the point that the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, raised about the creative use of accounting being used to avoid things. My understanding is that it is empowered to obtain and consider information regarding the club’s wider corporate group where it has reason to do so. It might be worth me getting further clarification from officials and ensuring that a letter outlining that is placed in the Library so that all noble Lords are clear on that point.

19:30
Lord Mann Portrait Lord Mann (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

That would be highly useful of the Minister, and I thank her.

Baroness Twycross Portrait Baroness Twycross (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Government will continue to support the FA and Women’s Professional Leagues Ltd as the women’s game forges its own path. We completely understand the desire to see appropriate protections put in place for women’s football. As I said, I have a historical vested interest in that I was not allowed to play football at school, and none of us wants to see issues like those at Reading, where the women’s team suffers as a result of issues at the affiliated men’s club. My noble friend Lord Mann gave the example of Solihull Moors, which was also cited by the noble Lord, Lord Goddard.

At present the intention is that this will be a regulator for the men’s game, and we have already discussed the reasons for that. Asking the regulator to then consider its impact on the women’s game could constitute a widening of that scope. I am confident that this is something that the industry authorities governing the women’s game will be able to tackle through their own rules for women’s clubs with affiliated men’s teams. They deserve the time, space and opportunity to do so.

I apologise if some of the language in the Explanatory Notes came across as clunky or inappropriate. I am confident that that was not the intention of those drafting them.

The Government’s position is in line with the recommendations of Karen Carney’s independent review of domestic women’s football, which was published in July 2023. The review recommended that the women’s game should be given the opportunity to self-regulate rather than moving immediately to independent statutory regulation, and the Government support that recommendation.

On Amendment 72 in the name of my noble friend Lady Taylor of Bolton, I agree that the regulator should help clubs to comply with regulations as much as reasonably possible. It is in everyone’s interest for clubs to become compliant quickly and with as little additional burden as possible. That is why provisions for a collaborative approach are already in place. The regulatory principle in Clause 8(b) encourages the regulator to,

“so far as reasonably practicable, co-operate, and proactively and constructively engage, with … clubs”.

The regulatory principle in Clause 8(c) also encourages the regulator to be proportionate.

For the reasons I have set out, I am unable to accept the amendments in this group and I hope that my noble friends and noble Lords will not press them.

Lord Mann Portrait Lord Mann (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I look forward to receiving the letter from the Minister. I will say—and officials may be listening in—that if we had a situation where a football club had a licence and was being regulated by the regulator, and that football club then threw its women’s team off their pitch so that they could not play, the regulator would look particularly stupid and impotent, and doubtless would be suggesting that the Government and Parliament may need to amend the law. I hope this matter can be looked at to see whether there is a way in which we can get around that without giving extra powers to the regulator, so I look forward to receiving that letter and I am sure other noble Lords do as well. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 65 withdrawn.
Amendments 66 and 67 not moved.
House resumed. Committee to begin again not before 8.19 pm.

Children with Special Educational Needs and Disabilities

Monday 9th December 2024

(3 days, 20 hours ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Question for Short Debate
19:34
Asked by
Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie Portrait Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to support children with special educational needs and disabilities.

Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie Portrait Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am aware that there have been a number of debates and Questions about education provision recently. I am sure the Minister is also keenly aware of this, especially today. A common theme has emerged that the current provision for supporting children with educational needs and disabilities does not work, with rising numbers, a greater range of need and local authorities unable to fund support. What I find most concerning is that there is a lack of ambition for SEND children. Despite increased levels of funding and higher levels of identification, these are not leading to better educational attainment. We all agree that something must be done, and therefore I make no apologies for bringing this Question for Short Debate to the House to enable us to push the Government on what that something should be.

I refer to my interests as chief executive of Cerebral Palsy Scotland. Cerebral palsy is a good condition to consider in SEND provision. Everyone with CP is affected differently. It is an umbrella term, so the needs and abilities of people with CP will vary tremendously. Some children with complex CP will need intensive input that can be provided only by special schools, often outside the state sector. Even for these children, gaining an EHCP can be challenging and an adversarial process. Once their level of support has been agreed, it is very difficult to change, despite the potential for needs to change as they grow.

Many children with CP do well in mainstream settings. Cerebral palsy always affects mobility, so physical access and ease of moving around a school can become issues. One in two has a learning disability or sensory processing issues, and may also have other conditions such as epilepsy or autism, so there are challenges in identifying what the right support needs to be. I have had many conversations with adults with CP, some of whom attended special schools and some of whom attended mainstream schools. Some had experience of both. There is no right answer, as there are pros and cons for both, but, looking back, many of these adults did not have a positive experience of education in either setting. What illustrates the need for change most poignantly for me is that, too often, education for SEND children is about just getting through the system, from one placement to the next. No one, it seems, ever asks a disabled child what they want to be when they grow up.

In preparation for this debate, I spoke to many people, including staff at Treloar School and College in Hampshire, who provide an amazing education for some of the most profoundly complex physically disabled children. Their college students started a business venture called “Let Me In”, which offers accessibility audits to local businesses to help them improve access and employment opportunities for disabled people. It is the sort of initiative that positively illustrates the Gatsby benchmarks in action. I love it because, while Treloar takes children from the age of four, ambition and preparing students to lead meaningful adult lives, based on what children can do rather than what they cannot, are at the heart of everything from early years provision all the way up to its college students.

Unfortunately, the SEND system is predicated on what children cannot do, not what they can. To qualify for an EHCP, you need a diagnosis of something, hence the rush to find labels for things and, for those who can, to turn to private consultants to get a label for their child. None of this is helpful in supporting the self-esteem of the child, building relationships with parents or identifying what the best support for the child should be. By looking at deficits at the outset, the system is putting up barriers. It is setting out to be adversarial. Would it not be better to think, “Let Me In”? Let us turn the system on its head and be ambitious for these children.

What happens to children as they wait, sometimes for a whole school year or more, for all these assessments and reviews? They are not at school at all; they are missing out on education and falling even further behind their peers. We are not even monitoring this. In an Answer to my Written Question, the Minister confirmed:

“The department does not hold data on how many children with SEND are currently not able to be placed in a suitable school”.


Surely this is something that she could change.

A diagnosis tells you nothing about the impairment level that a person experiences or how a child could learn in a classroom. As a condition such as cerebral palsy—or any other umbrella condition, such as autism—illustrates, a diagnosis in itself is not the be-all and end-all. It can be challenging to distinguish between some conditions and behavioural issues, or between second language issues and dyslexia. Children may have a number of different conditions and needs. Diagnoses have a tendency to skew the figures. We point to the huge rises in social, emotional and mental health needs, and physical disability is often seen as niche.

Not everything requires additional learning support, but currently we are failing too many of those who need it. Some issues, such as home environment or a lack of family support, are beyond the scope of the school to change, let alone the Department for Education. Other issues will be apparent in pre-school years, for which I believe we need a far more cross-sector approach.

Early identification is key, particularly in the realm of speech and language issues. Speech and language therapists play an essential role not only in supporting communication but in identifying cognitive ability and other issues. Given the very high prevalence of speech and language and communication needs among SEND children, the Government must consider how speech and language services are resourced, how specialist therapists are retained, and ensure a sufficient training pipeline.

Fundamentally, barriers to opportunity will be broken down only if all constituent parts work together—schools, parents, health professionals and local councils. I encourage the Minister to look outside the state sector, as independent schools have taken up the baton where often state schools have been unable to. This does not mean one route is better than the other but that we should look at all the education sector to see what is working, support it, and roll it out as widely as we can, not tax it. Involving the independent sector is part of the solution.

If we do not adopt a surplus system rather than a deficit system, we are failing not only SEND children but all our children, as too much resource and time is taken up trying to focus on how we keep this creaking system going. I welcome the announcement in the Budget of an extra £1 billion for high-needs provision and the additional capital funding, but I fear it will be quickly swallowed up, especially when I hear about one mainstream secondary that needs £250,000 to mend a broken lift to enable the school to be accessible. Have the Government set out priorities for this extra funding?

Although ensuring that children can physically get into the classroom is important, so is what they do when they get there. I look forward to the Minister telling us more about the Government’s plans to improve outcomes for SEND children. I assure her that we are here to help and support her. I welcome contributions from other noble Lords and thank them for contributing to this short debate.

19:43
Lord Patel Portrait Lord Patel (CB)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser of Craigmaddie, and I thank her for leading this debate in such a brilliant way.

My brief comments relate to the educational needs of children born prematurely and the challenges faced by parents and children in getting the system to help them. My comments are based solely on evidence received from many parents by the House of Lords Preterm Birth Committee, which I chaired.

Approximately 45,000 pre-term births occur annually in England. For most children who survive the neonatal period, the outcome is good, but for a significant number, particularly those born between 24 and 31 weeks’ gestation, while the incidence of physical disability is low, the most common outcome is a whole spectrum of cognitive impairment that extends into adulthood. Apart from poor hearing and sight, some children also suffer from epilepsy—and we have already heard of the problems that education has with children with epilepsy. Children born prematurely show problems with memory, attention and problem-solving, and social and emotional problems, withdrawn behaviour and communication difficulties. While some will need long-term healthcare, for most it is their educational needs that need greater attention and therefore consume more resources than healthcare does.

Entering school is a stressful time for children born prematurely and their parents—a flashpoint when the cognitive, social and emotional difficulties experienced by children emerge or become exacerbated. Many parents are worried that their child is not mature enough to enter school according to the cut-off point in age to start school. Children born prematurely are more likely to have special educational needs and learning difficulties than children born at term.

Parents reported a lack of understanding and awareness of the needs of children born prematurely and, therefore, a lack of support in educational settings. While the government guidance recognises the option of deferment to school entry, we heard many parents face bureaucratic hurdles and that there is a lack of understanding on the part of local authorities and schools of the educational needs of children born prematurely. Parents asked for help to make it easier to ask for deferring school entry and for schools to be aware of the birth history of the children, for example, by including the information on the school entry form. Parents who gave evidence were pleading for a way forward that recognises the educational needs of children born pre-term and the need of support from schools to take on board the views and experiences of parents, including options to defer entry.

Our committee was unable to find a way forward, except to support the efforts of voluntary programmes, such as the Prem Aware Award scheme, to raise awareness of prematurity in schools. I hope that the Minister will give some thought to how the children and the parents of children born prematurely can be helped.

19:47
Lord Bishop of Sheffield Portrait The Lord Bishop of Sheffield
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for securing this debate. One of the most rewarding pieces of work in which I was involved when I was on the staff of Lichfield Cathedral about 15 years ago was a partnership with a local school for pupils with SEND to create a bespoke multisensory tour involving water, incense, bells, holding crosses and even, judiciously, fire. At first, the cathedral guides were dubious, having been used to providing school visitors simply with a verbal commentary on the history and architecture of the building, but before long they were the ones advocating that the multisensory interactive components be incorporated into all our school visits. The result was a definite uplift in our overall educational offer—and I shall come back to that at the end, if I may.

The Church of England’s National Society for Education has set out a vision for a future curriculum that combines aspiration and equity to support the flourishing of all pupils. Three areas emerge as essential to this vision: first, investment in high capacity and integrated professional services; secondly, access to a broad curriculum for students with SEND; and, thirdly, the need for flexible metrics to evaluate effective teaching.

First, multiagency professional services must be properly funded to provide holistic support to children with SEND. I have in mind the fields of educational psychology, speech and language therapy, occupational therapy and child mental health, all of which have been in decline in recent years. We must ensure an equitable provision for every child, not a postcode lottery wholly reliant on the resources and capacities of overstretched local authorities.

Secondly, we must avoid the assumption that one single approach will suit all students with SEND. The challenges that some experience are cognitive, while others face physical, sensory and social communication barriers. The wide variety of needs and abilities demands in turn a varied curriculum but one that is nevertheless ambitious and in no way dilutes content for students with SEND.

Thirdly, there is a danger of an overreliance on formulaic assessments to measure the success of an educational offering. It is short-sighted to seek to incentivise high-quality and consistent teaching by demanding adherence to a single accountability framework or assessment mechanism. Indeed, each of the latest Ofsted reviews on subject knowledge concludes that there is no single approach that guarantees delivery of a high-quality curriculum.

Finally, in a recent debate, my right reverend friend the Bishop of Lincoln—previously lead bishop for education and chair of the National Society—highlighted the potential of Church-based special schools. Bearing in mind the tremendous constraints on mainstream education and the chronically underfunded and overstretched special education sector, I hope that this possibility will be given serious consideration.

A focus on support for children with SEND is obviously worth while, because those children themselves matter to us. If our experience in Lichfield is any guide, such support is capable of generating learning that can enrich the education that we offer all pupils. That is the reason I am so grateful for this short debate and for the opportunity to contribute to it.

19:51
Lord Shinkwin Portrait Lord Shinkwin (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I too congratulate my noble friend on securing this debate and pay tribute to the fantastic work that she does as chief executive of Cerebral Palsy Scotland, in addition to her duties in your Lordships’ House. As someone who has spent time in state mainstream and special schools, and also a mainstream independent school, I completely agree with her about the urgent need to address the damaging culture of low aspiration.

My noble friend speaks with great authority; I speak, if not with authority, certainly with the experience of someone who has lived with a disability since birth and, more specifically, as someone who provides proof of the way a mainstream independent education can transform the life chances of a disabled child who does not come from a privileged background. My remarks this evening therefore focus on this crucial question: does the Government’s proposed extension of VAT to private schools support the 99,000 children with SEN and disabilities who do not have an EHCP? Clearly, it does not. Indeed, if the Government proceed as planned, I am afraid that they will begin next year—the 30th anniversary year of the Disability Discrimination Act, or DDA—by in effect discriminating against disabled children.

I had the privilege of working with Labour parliamentary giants such as the late, great, Lord Ashley of Stoke and Lord Morris of Manchester. Labour played a pivotal part in securing the DDA; it was as much to Labour’s credit as to the Major Government’s that the DDA became law. So I am bemused that this Labour Government should be about to mark such a disability rights milestone by failing to take these children’s SEN and disabilities into account and exempt them.

The Minister may say that these are tough choices. I have to say that that would be a wholly inadequate and insensitive response to these children and their families, which serves only to underline the extent to which the Government have lost sight of one simple fact: these are innocent, vulnerable, disabled children, whose education will, because of their disability, quite literally be—as it has been for me—their salvation.

I conclude by pleading with the Minister to urge the Secretary of State and the Chancellor to begin the 30th anniversary year of the DDA not by discriminating against these children but by taking their SEN and disabilities into account and exempting them. They and I look to this Labour Government to show them some understanding and compassion, and to give them hope. Otherwise, some of these innocent, vulnerable children will be facing the worst Christmas of their young lives.

19:55
Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne Portrait Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the Prime Minister has declared that 75% of five year-olds should have reached a good level of development. This is one of his key goals—I support that fully. I will refer exclusively to deaf children in these few minutes. Nearly 1 million people are born in the UK profoundly deaf. This gives us approximately 50,000 deaf children, as of today. Those children are nearly all put into normal classes, where they have no specialist teaching to help them speak, nor to understand what others are saying; yet speaking and comprehending what others are saying are the essential keys to these children reaching the good level of development to which the Prime Minister refers.

There are only 860 qualified teachers of speech therapy in Britain, so the lack of speech therapy is one of the key problems. Deaf children need to learn to speak in the same way as their family and classmates; and, equally, they need to be able to understand what others are saying. Yet there are 1.9 million children in the queue for speech therapy in the UK today. The likelihood of deaf children getting to the front of that queue is rather small. Deafness, of course, excludes children, not just from speaking and from understanding speech, but from other subjects as well. Even sports, for example, give deaf children problems with balance, since physical deafness means balance is also harmed.

There is another way and I ask the Minister to consider singing teaching. The strength of singing lies in its capacity to create correct articulation; language; the meaning of words and sentences; plus strengthening physical health through breathing and posture. Even better, social participation of all kinds comes when children are in a choir or taught singing individually. Singing and interacting with others through music is an important window out of the loneliness that is a direct result of the disability of deafness in children.

I ask the Minister to make these 50,000 children a top disability educational priority. This could be an easy win that flows right into this Government’s commitment to education for all children, provided that every possible tool is brought into place, including, but not only, music. Might the Minister meet me to discuss the ways in which music brings all children, even those of every disability, right into the harmonious fold with others? I would be grateful.

19:58
Lord Lexden Portrait Lord Lexden (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I declare my interests as a former general secretary of the Independent Schools Council and the current president of the Independent Schools Association, one of the council’s constituent bodies, whose 690 members include many schools, most of them small, which excel in teaching and caring for children with special needs: schools which are loved and cherished by hard-working families of limited means up and down our land. They are far, far removed from the world of the large, expensive, independent schools, once known as public schools—a term that has now largely fallen into abeyance thanks to the current fashion for representing the independent sector as consisting of private schools.

A recent article on special needs provision stated that

“private schools have become part of the safety net for children”,

adding that the

“government should have recognised how the independent sector has become the backstop for a broken system”.

These words were written by a senior Labour Member of Parliament—long regarded as being on the left of the party—who has come to recognise the value of the wide and diverse provision for children with SEND in the independent sector, which has such a long tradition of excellence in this sphere. Almost 30% of independent schools are special needs schools.

Others too recognise the great importance of the independent sector in supplementing and reinforcing the state sector in this crucial area in a spirit of partnership: a principle fostered by the last Labour Government. A special needs co-ordinator who has worked at a state school for 40 years has written to tell me that “many private schools have been formed specifically to cater for special needs. They provide centres of excellence, often where there is a deficit regionally. Why risk losing them?”. It is a risk no Government should take but, sadly, this Government are taking it.

The Government say they will grant exemption from their education tax only to children with education, health and care plans. As my noble friend Lord Shinkwin has pointed out, nearly 100,000 children in independent schools do not have these hard-to-come-by plans, which parents often have to fight hard to acquire. Last year, over 13,000 SEND tribunal cases cost councils over £45 million. Even as this debate progresses today, families will be wondering how they are going to afford Labour’s education tax; many will decide that they cannot.

Labour says that schools themselves can cover much of their tax. That is wrong. The small schools, of which the sector largely consists, have to raise each year the means by which to meet their costs. Demand for EHC plans will rise. Demand for places in state schools will rise. State schools will struggle to provide them at the same level of care and support as in the independent sector. Good independent special needs schools will shut.

The right course—in the interests of education—is obvious: some clear guiding principles should be laid down. First, all pupils with diagnosed SEND and all those eligible for disability living allowance should be exempt from the education tax. Secondly, a tax threshold should be set—based on the number of pupils—to protect smaller special schools from closure. Thirdly, an independent review should be conducted after six months to provide proper factual evidence of how the education tax—launched hurriedly without full consultation—is affecting the most vulnerable children who look to our education system to meet their special needs. That is what a responsible Government would do.

20:02
Baroness Monckton of Dallington Forest Portrait Baroness Monckton of Dallington Forest (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I declare my interest as set out in the register. I thank my noble friend Lady Fraser of Craigmaddie for securing this important debate.

I make no apologies for the fact that my contribution is going to be based around the education tax. The Government’s impact assessment on levying VAT on private education noted that state schools have statutory duties to provide the correct level of support for SEN pupils. How do the Government propose to do this, given that many of the schools are in financial deficit with stretched resources? As I understand it, the £740 million announced two weeks ago will mostly be for buildings and accessibility in mainstream schools. But what about people with learning disabilities? Who will recruit and train the teachers? Where would we find the speech and language therapists, the occupational therapists and the educational psychologists?

What will happen to the large number of pupils with SEN and without EHCPs who attend private schools and who—I agree with my noble friend Lord Shinkwin—will no longer be able to afford the fees? Many of those pupils have migrated from the state sector for smaller class sizes and to avoid the overwhelming impact of noise and chaos in school corridors.

We are not talking about rich parents; we are talking about parents who can see the difference this makes to their children, and who have found a lack of individual support and teaching assistant capacity in the state sector. We are talking about families where both parents are working in order to pay the fees—parents who have made enormous sacrifices to create the best possible opportunities for their children.

An example of this is a school close to us in east Sussex, which both my daughters attended. It has a pupil on the autistic spectrum who does not have an EHCP. He also needs an individual learning assistant. His parents cannot afford the VAT and the assistant. They are having to pull their son out of the school where he has thrived. They are going to home-school him. They do not consider this a choice; they have no choice. All they want to do is what is best for their son.

I have heard that parents will be making cutbacks and compromises in their budgeting on holidays, the weekly food shop and clothing rather than give up on such private education. Again, many of those people have come from the state sector because it could not cope with their children’s needs. This will lead to further pastoral concern for the well-being of these young people and their families. As Rachael Maskell, the Labour MP for York Central, has written:

“When I heard of parents remortgaging their homes and working three minimum-wage jobs to access an environment which the child could engage, placing VAT on fees was a step too far … private schools have become … the safety net for children struggling, melting and breaking”.


To remove this safety net from parents who face exhausting struggles daily to provide the best opportunities for their children demonstrates a lamentable ignorance and a failure to think deeply enough about what life is like as a parent of a disabled child. If the Government would like more enlightenment, I would be only too happy to help.

20:06
Lord Jamieson Portrait Lord Jamieson (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. I thank my noble friend Lady Fraser of Craigmaddie for this important debate. The current SEND system does not work. This is the third debate on SEND that I have been involved in in my short time in this House, and there seems to be a remarkable level of agreement on the issues and the solutions. There have been a number of task forces and consultations on this, also with a good degree of consensus on the issues and the solutions. The recent October NAO report made plain the issues we see in SEND: increasing expenditure and higher numbers but no consistent improvement in outcomes, and frustration for families, children and those working in the system.

The DfE spends more than £10.7 billion on SEND and a significant sum is spent by councils. We have 1.9 million pupils with SEND. EHCP numbers are up 140% since 2015, and 31% of SEND inspections in the past year or so noted widespread or systematic failings. The number of tribunals has gone up by 50% since 2018. Families lack confidence in the system. There is a shortage of specialist state school places, requiring councils to commission high-cost private placements. There is significant variation in access across the country and by the season of birth. On top of that, there is a major issue with school transport. The system is simply not financially viable, and councils risk going bust over this.

We need to change the system. There are multiple reports to this effect. We need to move from an adversarial to an inclusive system, with support available when it is needed and early assessment and diagnosis. We need to align incentives so that all parts of the system work together, with clear guidance on what level of support is available for a given need and moving away from the adversarial tribunals system. Ofsted needs to hold schools to account for their inclusivity and the support they give those with SEND. Those not with SEND also need the right level of support, but schools also need funding for these. We need more staff—various Members have mentioned educational psychologists, SENCOs and mental health and speech and language therapists.

Finally, as has been pointed out by several noble Lords, ambition is important for our children. We need a system that is focused on improving outcomes for children, not one that focuses on what children cannot do, and the right levels of provision; we need a focus on what could be done. The system is simply not sustainable; we need to use the resources to deliver an excellent system, not prop up a failing one. Government and other stakeholders need to have the willingness to act. While that will be difficult because of a lack of trust in the current system, particularly from parents, to not act would condemn more children to a failing system that is financially unstainable. I say to the Minister: be bold and ambitious for our children.

20:10
Lord Addington Portrait Lord Addington (LD)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I remind the House of my interests as set out in the register.

Something that has run through everything we have said about special educational needs is that there is a series of hurdles to get through. The first is to be recognised and the second is to access the help that is required. I will concentrate my few minutes on the first.

If you do not get an identification, everything else is doomed. Oddly, if you have a physical disability that is obvious to anyone, that would probably be slightly less of a problem. If you are on the neurodiverse spectrum—the one that I know best—and you have a dramatic failure, you are much more likely to be identified. The problem is that most people are not in those categories. We need somebody within the school structure who can spot developmental problems, whether it is in very early years or further along.

One-off systems will not work, because virtually everything we have been talking about here comes under the heading of a spectrum. The diversity within spectrums means that people will have different levels in the manifestation of their problems with the education system in front of them. If they do not have a problem with it, we do not worry. Will the Government take the first steps to make sure that there are more people who can spot these problems within the school system? If we do that, we stand a chance of getting that person, their parents and the system to come round and say, “Yes, let’s work differently”.

Once the person has been identified—I am probably again clinging back to nurse and my own group first, but it is applicable—if the school does not have the relevant knowledge, it tends to suddenly says, “Oh, we’ll give you extra help”. If you are a dyslexic with a bad short-term memory and bad language processing skills, and you fail on the work that everybody else is doing in the classroom, you will simply fail some more if you are given more of the work that you failed at. The same will be true of other conditions.

What is needed is somebody who will temper that work to the individual needs of the person. That requires knowledge and, above all, flexibility. Do you have the capacity in the school system not to say what should be being done but to ask what the best result we can get is? If you do not, you are, in effect, condemning more people to fail—and to fail in a way that will probably be disruptive to others around them.

When she comes to reply, will the Minister say what plans the Government have for better identification throughout the school system? There is so much that can be done from this good start, including the accurate engagement of parents. I have heard it said that special educational needs are for posh kids, because they are the ones who can fight through and get the identification. If the Minister wants to leave with one great claim to fame at the end of her time in office or her Government’s, it should be to get the schools to say, “Your child has a problem. Here’s a solution”. Parents should not have to go banging on doors, asking, “Why is my child not succeeding? I have spoken to an expert”. Change that and you change everything.

20:14
Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Fraser for securing this debate, bringing her expertise to your Lordships’ House, and making sure that the issues affecting children with special educational needs and disabilities stay on the agenda, with a real focus on ambition.

This is clearly a very long-standing issue. The Green Paper from 2011 identified many of the issues that your Lordships have raised this evening, and clearly it gives me no pleasure to recognise that. Despite everyone’s best efforts—those in schools, parents and children—the system is not working, and there is real inconsistency in the identification of SEND geographically, by school within regions, and by characteristic. For example, 50% of summer-born boys will be given a SEND identification during their time at primary. I do not think any of us can really believe that to be an accurate reflection of the situation.

Most importantly, the system is not working for children, whether that is in the classroom, where they have been described as being in it but not of it, or in relation to the results that they achieve. There is the risk that expectations are lowered for children with a label, and research suggests strongly that this is exactly what plays out in practice: parents fight for a label and then it backfires on their child.

We have seen an explosion in the identification of autism, ADHD, social, emotional and mental health problems, and speech and language issues. I would like to spend just a moment on those. Nearly every parent tries to make sure that their children are ready for school, but it seems that we need to do more to make sure that everyone understands the importance of early emotional development and language acquisition.

The Minister will be aware of the research showing the link between a family’s screen use and a child’s language environment, with the average toddler missing out on hearing more than 1,000 words a day due to screen time. Given the incredible rise in speech and language delays identified at school, surely the Government need to act on this. Similarly, in the other areas of rapid increase in identification, the evidence is growing about the harmful effects of screens on children with symptoms of ADHD and social, emotional and mental health problems in potentially both creating and exacerbating their symptoms. Will the Government look seriously at the impact of having smartphones in schools on the well-being of our children, particularly those with special educational needs?

The previous Government’s SEND and AP implementation plan recommended the introduction of national standards. I would be grateful if the Minister could update the House on the Government’s plan for those. This Government recently announced that they were not continuing with the Safety Valve programme, which provided funding to create local capacity. I wonder if she could expand on what will happen instead. Earlier today, I mentioned the Employment Rights Bill. Given the importance of teaching assistants and other support staff for children with special educational needs, I hope the Minister will ensure that it will not represent a ceiling on what trusts are able to offer their staff.

I end where my noble friend started: we must make sure that we ask children with disabilities what their dreams are and that we all work to help fulfil them.

20:18
Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait The Minister of State, Department for Education (Baroness Smith of Malvern) (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, as others have, I start by expressing my gratitude to the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser, for opening this important debate. Notwithstanding that this is my third appearance at the Dispatch Box today, and not the first time I have addressed this issue from it, I think that identifies its importance for all Members of your Lordships’ House, and in particular for the noble Baroness. I know that she is a champion for those with cerebral palsy and that the organisation she supports plays a key role in helping children, young people and adults to build skills, knowledge, confidence and relationships.

We have heard a range of perspectives today from across the House, emphasising personal experiences and our understanding of how those shape our special educational needs and the SEND system, which so many rely on across the country. I was particularly interested in the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, about the impact on premature children. I will have to undertake to look further at the committee report that he identified. We are aware of the challenges in the SEND system, where outcomes for children are often poor and in a system that can be adversarial for parents and carers to navigate. We understand how urgently we need to address these issues. We have the ambition that the noble Lord, Lord Jamieson, urged on us. However, these are complex issues. We will need a considered approach to deliver sustainable changes, because we know that the current system needs to do so much more to meet the needs of children with SEND. We face significant challenges in the sufficiency of provision and public confidence. The outcomes for children and young people with SEND are often disappointing. Here I wholeheartedly support, as all noble Lords have, the aspiration that we should expect the highest possible standards for children with special educational needs and disabilities. We should start with the question: “What do they want to be and how can we support them to achieve that?”

As recent reports from Isos and the National Audit Office have identified, there is a crisis in the system—a system that has been neglected and failed to meet the needs of children and families for too long. Improving the SEND system is a priority for this Government. We want all children, regardless of where they are in the country, to receive the right support to succeed in their education and lead happy, healthy and productive adult lives.

The noble Lords, Lord Shinkwin and Lord Lexden, and the noble Baroness, Lady Monckton, raised the issue of VAT on private school fees, another issue that I have discussed on several occasions from this Dispatch Box. In sharing the view of noble Lords that we need the highest possible aspirations for our children, I re-emphasise that we need the highest possible aspirations for our children, whichever type of school they are in. Clearly, what is happening in our state sector is not good enough for the 93% of children educated there. Notwithstanding that, we are committed to ensuring that pupils whose needs necessitate a place at a private school are not impacted by the policy. Where children have their place identified as part of the education, health and care plan, they will of course not be impacted by the changes that are being made to VAT.

The reforms that families need and deserve will take time, but the Government have already taken action to support the system. First, all teachers are teachers of special educational needs and disabilities. To ensure that teachers have the skills to support all pupils to succeed, including those with SEND, we are implementing a range of teacher-training reforms which begins with initial teacher training and continues into early career teaching, through to middle and senior leadership.

The noble Baroness, Lady Fraser, and the noble Lord, Lord Addington, quite rightly made the point that we need to start early to identify and support children. Early years will be part of the wider SEND reforms. We are committed to improving inclusivity and expertise in all mainstream settings as well as ensuring that special schools cater for those with the most complex needs. To support this, we have launched new training resources for early educators to help them to support children with developmental differences. We have also funded training for up to 7,000 early years special educational needs co-ordinators.

High-quality teaching is central to ensuring that all children are given the best possible opportunity to achieve in their education. That is why we are recruiting an additional 6,500 teachers and have implemented a range of teacher training reforms, as I have outlined. On 1 September 2024, the Government introduced a new mandatory leadership level national professional qualification for SENCOs. We have also launched an independent curriculum assessment review to look closely at the key challenges to attainment that children and young people face, particularly those with SEND.

In reference to the calls from several noble Lords for investment in the professionals, who are so important, I say that we are also investing over £21 million to train 400 new educational psychologists, but we need additional funding in our broader school funding system. To improve outcomes for our most vulnerable children and ensure that the system is financially sustainable, we are providing almost £1 billion more for high-needs budgets in 2025-26, bringing total high-needs funding to £11.9 billion. This more consistent and widespread approach will be more important than the safety valve system that the noble Baroness referenced, which, of course, by definition was able to cope only with those local authorities in extreme situations. All local authorities need support and that is our reason for the approach that we have taken. This funding will help local authorities and schools with the increasing costs of supporting children and young people with complex SEND.

Last week, we also announced an additional £740 million for high-needs capital in 2025-26. This new funding can be used to adapt classrooms to be more accessible for children with SEND, and to create specialist facilities within mainstream schools that can deliver more intensive support adapted to suit the pupils’ needs, alongside continuing to support pupils in special schools with the most complex needs.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Sheffield and the noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson, also raised the important point about speech and language therapists. We know that continuing to build the pipeline of speech and language therapists is essential. That is why the speech and language degree apprenticeship was introduced, which is now in its third year of delivery and offers an alternative pathway into a successful career as a speech and language therapist. In addition, working with NHS England, the funding for the Early Language and Support for Every Child pathfinders will continue until at least 2025. It is trialling new ways of working to better identify and support children with speech and language issues in early years and primary school settings.

I am very attracted to the call of the noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson, for more use of music not only with respect to students with special educational needs but broadly across our curriculum. As per our recent announcement, we expect all music hubs to have an inclusion strategy and lead to ensure that music education is fully inclusive in mainstream and special schools. We recently announced £5.8 million for the Music Opportunities pilot over four years to help support disadvantaged and SEND pupils.

Obviously, there is more to be done. The Government will bring a new focus on improving inclusivity and expertise in mainstream education settings, where most children with special educational needs and disabilities are taught and where most children’s needs are identified. We are moving to an approach rooted in partnership, creating certainty for all children, parents and teachers, in a core offer of education. To transform the outcomes of all young people with SEND, children need to feel that they belong in school. We will support professionals who work with children and young people with SEND to increase their SEND expertise.

We will also encourage mainstream schools to set up resourced provision or special educational needs units to increase capacity so that more children and young people with SEND can benefit from mainstream education. We will strengthen accountability to ensure that mainstream schools are as inclusive as possible. As part of this, we are working closely with Ofsted to develop proposals for how inspections could operate in future and how outcomes could be reported within a new report card system. All our work will be guided by what families, experts, leaders and front-line professionals tell us. We can get this right only if we listen and work together on solutions.

This work has already begun with the appointment of Tom Rees, chief executive of Ormiston Academies Trust, to lead a group of experts to help us drive forward work on inclusion in mainstream education settings, and with the appointment of Dame Christine Lenehan as strategic adviser for SEND. She will play a key role in convening and engaging with the sector, including leaders, practitioners, children and families, and will support work to engage parliamentarians as we refine and deliver our SEND reform. To drive support for neurodivergent children and young people in mainstream education, we have appointed Professor Karen Guldberg as chair of a new group bringing together neurodiversity experts and those with lived experience.

Together, we can restore trust in the system and improve it so that more and more children and young people get the support they need to succeed in their education and later in life. As we heard today, many noble Lords have considerable experience and expertise in SEND. I look forward to working and collaborating with noble Lords to realise this vision, which I know Members of this House will share.

Committee (4th Day) (Continued)
20:30
Clause 7: The IFR’s general duties etc
Amendment 67A
Moved by
67A: Clause 7, page 5, line 26, at end insert—
“(d) differential impact on regulated clubs participating in, or seeking to qualify for, competitions organised by international football bodies.”
Baroness Brady Portrait Baroness Brady (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, Amendment 67A in my name addresses a critical oversight in the Bill. It is intended to properly recognise the clearly differential impact of regulation on certain clubs, specifically those participating in or seeking to qualify for competitions organised by international governing bodies. This amendment is essential to ensuring that the unique challenges faced by Premier League clubs, especially in the context of UEFA and FIFA, are properly understood and accounted for.

I begin with the elephant in the room: UEFA’s refusal to endorse this regulatory regime. We know that UEFA has explicitly raised objections to the Bill’s provisions, warning that mandatory redistributions and other aspects of state interference risk breaching its rules on the autonomy of sport. This is no small matter. UEFA and FIFA hold significant leverage over clubs competing in their competitions, and they have made it clear that this leverage could be exercised if the Bill’s provisions conflict with their frameworks. Premier League clubs that qualify for European competition—clubs that have spent years building their competitiveness and investing in their success—are now being placed in an unenviable and unique position. They face the very real risk that this regulatory framework could put them in conflict with UEFA and FIFA, creating ongoing uncertainty and jeopardising their ability to compete on the European stage.

The consequences of such a conflict are potentially catastrophic, not just for the clubs involved, although it affects them uniquely, but for the reputation and stability of English football as a whole. The differential impact of the Bill in this respect is stark. Premier League clubs, particularly those involved in UEFA competitions, are the only entities at risk of disqualification due to regulatory conflicts. They are also the only clubs that must navigate both domestic regulation and the additional compliance burdens imposed by UEFA licensing. This small class of clubs is being asked to shoulder very specific, disproportionate burdens and risks that directly affect their operations, financial stability and competitive standing. Let us not forget that these clubs are the financial engine of the football pyramid. They generate billions in revenue, attract international investment and support grass-roots football through solidarity payments. Yet the Bill places them in a uniquely precarious position, where their ability to operate and succeed could be undermined by regulatory uncertainty and conflict with international governing bodies.

Unlike lower league clubs, Premier League clubs that aspire to European success operate under the shadow of UEFA’s and FIFA’s leverage. This is not a temporary issue; it is a permanent dynamic. UEFA has already made it clear in correspondence, which the Government has refused to publish, that certain provisions in the Bill could jeopardise compliance with its framework. This gives UEFA and FIFA ongoing leverage over Premier League clubs, creating a regulatory environment that could become fundamentally unstable.

The Bill compounds this problem by failing to address how the regulator would navigate these international conflicts. While it empowers the regulator to impose unprecedented interventions, such as backstop powers over financial distributions, it does so without requiring the regulator to consult or co-ordinate with UEFA or FIFA. This omission leaves clubs caught between competing regulatory demands with no clear resolution mechanism.

The potential consequences of these conflicts go beyond individual clubs. If Premier League clubs are disqualified from European competitions, or face ongoing regulatory uncertainty, it would damage the Premier League’s reputation, diminish its global competitiveness and, ultimately, reduce the revenues that flow down the pyramid. This is not scaremongering. It is a very real risk, uncovered by this Committee, which this the amendment addresses.

The amendment also speaks to a broader issue of fairness. Premier League clubs are being disproportionately impacted by the Bill, including the backstop, because they are the only funder of other leagues in the pyramid. Yet their unique position and vulnerabilities are not adequately reflected in the legislation. By explicitly recognising the different impacts on clubs participating in international competitions, we can at least begin to address this imbalance and ensure that the Bill does not inadvertently harm the clubs but helps drive the success of English football. If we are to create a regulatory framework that commands trust and confidence, we must acknowledge these differential impacts openly and honestly. The amendment is a vital step towards that goal.

This amendment is not about special treatment for Premier League clubs. It is about recognising the unique challenges they face, ensuring that regulation does not create more problems than it solves. By acknowledging the differential impacts on clubs participating in international competitions, we can create a regulatory framework that is fair, proportionate and fit for purpose. I urge noble Lords to support this amendment, to ensure that the Bill reflects the realities of modern football and the global stage on which our clubs operate. I beg to move.

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I want briefly to support my noble friend’s comments and amendment. We have already set out our concerns about UEFA and FIFA’s objections. The Minister has suggested that our concerns are somewhat misplaced. Given the comments that have just been made, our concerns have unfortunately not been allayed. The fundamental issue is that, rightly or wrongly, the letter from UEFA and FIFA was in the papers; we have seen concerns that were raised.

Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the Minister has not been able to fully explain to the Committee exactly what has been said. She said that constructive conversations have happened. That is great news and we are all pleased to hear it but, up to this point, she has not been able to give us any detail to match the concerns that we have seen in this letter. Does she feel able today to give us a bit more detail and some categorical examples of where FIFA and UEFA have said that they are now happy with the Government’s position and happy with the Bill as it is? We could balance that with what we have seen in the papers and the press from the letter, and what we have heard in some—I am sure—well-intentioned comments from the Minister about what has been said, but with nothing tangible to back it up.

Does she have any correspondence with UEFA or FIFA, or any more tangible evidence that she can give us, to help us with the words she has been saying, which, I am sure, reflect conversations she may have had in meetings? This would give us some more tangible evidence that the issues that my noble friend has raised will not come to pass. Until we have that, we will have to return to this and, I am afraid, press the Minister for any more information she can give us.

Lord Addington Portrait Lord Addington (LD)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, as the noble Baroness just said, could we have the answer tonight as to what the state of play actually is? If we get some assurance that, “Providing we do not do X and Y, which we hope is not the intention of the Bill, we are fine”, then this will get put to bed. If the Minister can see some way of assuring us, even if it had to be on Chatham House terms or something, that would help, because we do not want there to be a problem. If we can get that assurance out there, this issue will go away. Let us face facts: it just would not exist.

We want there to be a competition. Presumably, Europe wants the Premier League there. The reason why we have this Bill is about Europe. It was because of fans protesting that they were going to lose their competition and their traditions to Europe, and politicians saying, “We’ll intervene”, which most people agreed with. If we can get an assurance that there is something solid that means we would have to do something radically different to turn this bad scenario into a living nightmare, that is fine. We cannot guarantee the future; we can deal only with the Bill in front of us. If the Minister can give us those assurances she will have my full support.

Lord Moynihan Portrait Lord Moynihan (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, over the weekend, I and colleagues from across the Committee wrote to the Minister and sought to be very specific about the points that have just been raised by the noble Lord, Lord Addington, and my noble friend Lady Brady. It would be helpful to the Committee—I mentioned this to the Minister this morning too—to put on record the specific concerns that could lead to differences of opinion between the two regulatory frameworks: the regulatory framework we are seeking to put into legislation and the regulatory framework that already exists within UEFA and in FIFA. Indeed, if the answer to all the points that I will raise is that there is no conflict, the Committee will be satisfied and so will I.

I would be grateful if we could have specific clarification on UEFA and FIFA’s position concerning the regulatory powers contained in the legislation. Given the extensive scope of the Bill’s powers and their potential impact on clubs and national teams participating in UEFA or FIFA competitions, I would be grateful if the Government could confirm whether UEFA and FIFA have been consulted on each of the following categories of powers: whether UEFA has specifically approved the proposed regulatory framework, particularly the revenue distribution backstop powers; the licensing framework and powers; the IFR’s independence; the IFR’s accountability mechanisms; the Secretary of State’s broad-ranging powers; the delegated powers; the financial oversight mechanisms; and the interaction between IFR rules and UEFA/FIFA regulations. If there are any areas where UEFA or FIFA has or will, in response to this request, express reservations or express modifications then I would be grateful if the Committee could be informed.

Have the Government commissioned expert legal advice on these issues? How has this impacted on the design of the legislation? How will potential conflicts between UEFA/FIFA regulations and these various powers be resolved, especially regarding revenue distribution arrangements, competition participation rules, financial monitoring requirements, the licensing system, and the extensive rule-making powers granted to the IFR? This clarification is essential for ensuring the smooth implementation of the new regulatory framework and avoiding any potential conflicts with existing football governance structures.

As my noble friend mentioned, as reported in the press, in a letter from UEFA to the Secretary of State, UEFA warned against “government interference” in football. It points out that it has very “specific rules” that guard against state interference to

“guarantee the autonomy of sport and fairness of sporting competition”.

The Bill, however, gives the regulator and the Government the following powers over football in England. I would very much welcome confirmation from the Government, not today but in due course, that in the meeting the Minister of Sport had with UEFA— referred to by the Minister on an earlier Committee day—the Minister brought these powers to the attention of UEFA and it confirmed that they do not amount to “government interference”.

20:45
The Secretary of State’s powers identified in the Bill are: the power to specify competition subject to regulation, in Clause 2(3); the power to provide financial assistance to the IFR, in paragraph 36 of Schedule 2; the power to publish football governance statements, in Clause 11; the power to issue guidance to the IFR about the exercise of its functions, in Clause 13; the power to make regulations amending thresholds for ownership tests, in paragraph 16 of Schedule 1; the power to amend bodies to which the IFR can disclose information, in Clause 86(6); the power to make regulations about public authority information disclosure, in Clause 87(4); the power to make consequential amendments to legislation, in Clause 97; the power to extend provisions to the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, in Clause 98; and the power to determine the IFR board’s remuneration, in Schedule 2.
I may not have covered all the IFR licensing powers, but I have gone through the Bill and the first is the power to grant, refuse or revoke operating licences, in Clauses 15 to 19, which will have a big impact on UEFA; the power to attach mandatory and discretionary licence conditions, which are unspecified, in Clauses 20 to 25; and the powers to specify conditions relating to financial resources, non-financial resources and fan engagement.
Then there are the IFR ownership and officer powers: the powers to determine the suitability of club owners and officers, in Clauses 27 to 32; the power to issue disqualification orders against unsuitable owners and officers, in Clause 38; the power to direct the removal of unsuitable owners or officers, in Clauses 39 to 40; the power to make ownership removal orders, in Clause 43; and the power to appoint replacement officers in certain circumstances, in Clause 42.
On the IFR financial and revenue powers, which again seem to stand in potential conflict with UEFA, there are: the power to require financial plans and corporate governance statements that differ from UEFA’s; the power to impose financial penalties for non-compliance; and the power to require the payment of the regulatory levy by a licensed club, in Clause 53.
There are the IFR revenue distribution backstop powers: the power to trigger mediation between competition organisers, in Clauses 57 to 60; the power to make binding distribution orders if mediation fails, in Clause 62; the power to specify the duration and revocation of distribution orders, in Clause 63; and the power to review and enforce compliance with distribution orders, in Clause 64.
There are heritage protection powers: the power to approve or refuse the relocation of club grounds, in Clause 48; the power to protect club names, crests and colours, in Clause 49; and the power to specify prohibited competitions, in Clause 45.
The IFR investigatory and enforcement powers are in the Bill: the power to require information from clubs and relevant persons; the power to appoint expert reporters to investigate clubs; the power to conduct investigations into potential infractions; the power to issue urgent decisions; and the power to impose sanctions, including financial penalties.
The key powers delegated to the Secretary of State are clearly matters that can potentially conflict with UEFA’s current rules and regulations, such as the definition powers: the power to define “specified competitions” that fall under regulation; the power to amend the definition of “serious criminal conduct”; the power to amend the definition of “season”; powers to make supplementary rules on any aspect of the Act; and the power to make rules about fan consultation requirements.
There are just three final areas that I think are important. I very much hope the Minister will be able to give us comfort on this point, but the potential for conflict seems to exist in terms of the regulatory framework powers: the power to amend areas where the IFR may attach discretionary licence conditions; the power to change the statutory minimum number of members of the expert panel; the power to define relevant revenue for distribution purposes; and the power to amend figures relating to numerical maximum financial penalties.
Then there are the key delegated powers to the IFR, the operational powers: the power to define specified senior management functions; the power to make rules determining the form of operating licences; the power to make rules about licence applications and timelines; the financial and enforcement powers; the power to specify prohibited competitions; the power to make rules regarding levy charging; the power to make rules determining revenue for calculating financial penalties; and the power to delegate information-gathering powers to expert reporters.
In conclusion, there are the governance powers: the power to make rules regarding honesty, integrity and financial soundness assessments; the power to publish corporate governance codes of practice; and the powers to prepare and publish corporate governance reports.
I would very much appreciate the Government’s detailed response on these matters in writing at their earliest convenience, because they go right to the heart of the success or failure of the Bill, our future in Europe and indeed the World Cup competitions. I very much hope and request that the Minister takes these requests to UEFA and FIFA so that the Committee can be completely comfortable that they are in line with the regulations and, as a result, there can be no conflict in future that will be to the detriment of football and fans.
Baroness Taylor of Bolton Portrait Baroness Taylor of Bolton (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I was not going to intervene, but the noble Lord has said time and again that the Bill may jeopardise British clubs competing in Europe. Can the Minister clarify that in Italy the legislative decree 9/2008—the Melandri law—and in Spain the royal decree law 5/2015 both deal with the distribution of audio-visual rights, and both insist on a significant amount of distribution to lower clubs? I have not heard that clubs from Italy or Spain have been refused participation in European competitions.

Lord Harlech Portrait Lord Harlech (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I support in the strongest possible terms my noble friend’s Amendment 67A. After the backstop issue, this is the most important issue in the Bill. For the fans of some teams, the ability to play in Europe and their clubs’ fortunes there are more important than what happens with the national side. We are being asked to consider something so fundamental that we cannot do it with this proposed legislation unless the Government publish the letter and any subsequent conversations that they have had with UEFA. Otherwise, we cannot really take into account the full ramifications of what the Bill may do.

The noble Lord, Lord Addington, summed it up best when he said that it was the risk of the breakaway league that caused the Bill to come into consideration in the first place. I humbly request that the Minister shares with the Committee everything that UEFA has said in relation to the Bill.

Baroness Fox of Buckley Portrait Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, earlier there was a tetchy mood in which it was suggested that some of the contributions were simply time-wasting—and the word “filibustering” was used. When I was listening to the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, I could see eyes rolling and people thinking that he was reading out an endless list and just time-wasting. But I think he did the Committee a great service by doing that, because he reminded us of the enormity of the powers that the Bill is affording a regulator. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, who is not in his place, earlier made the point that it is just a regulator and that it is independent, and said, “What is your problem with this? We can trust them—they won’t do anything malign”. But this House and Parliament are telling that independent regulator what powers it has and determining what political interventions it can made. At least some of us have been concerned less about the financial situation but about the creeping politicisation of the number of powers that have been given precisely because it will not be a light-touch independent regulator, as I am sure the Government want it to be. That list was therefore very important.

It is our responsibility to make sure, first, that no unintended consequences come from the Bill and, secondly, that the Government are absolutely transparent about every single thing, including letters from UEFA. They should tell us what they fear and what the risks are. People keep talking about grown-ups in the room in politics. If we are going to be grown-ups, we want to know straightforwardly what the Bill risks. The idea that the only opposition to the Bill is from people who are ideologically opposed to regulation per se is malign. It is not true. Some people may be—but it is because of football that we need to know these things, and that is all.

Lord Markham Portrait Lord Markham (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my noble friend Lady Brady because, as has been mentioned, we have highlighted what is probably the number one issue. In all the time that we as noble Lords have spent here, we have shown that everyone cares. We are spending all this time here because we care about football massively and because what we are seeing here is, if noble Lords will excuse the pun, probably the biggest own goal. Everything behind the Bill is well intended but, if we get ourselves into a situation where we are suspended as an association, that will set football back decades. It is very real.

UEFA says that it is concerned and that:

“A Member Association may … be suspended if state authorities interfere … in such a significant way that … it may no longer be considered as fully responsible”.


My noble friend Lord Moynihan set out a long list of all those things. I want to set out one simple example. In the backstop, the regulator is given the power to decide on one league’s proposal over another league’s proposal. By definition, it is picking one side versus the other. That means, axiomatically, that those associations are no longer responsible for the decision; one of them must lose out, so one of them cannot be responsible for it. I cannot see any way in which that does not trigger what UEFA is saying—that the association is then no longer fully responsible because the decision has been taken out of its hands.

I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, is correct that examples from Italy and Spain show that this is fine—again, I am grateful for her contribution because nothing would make us happier than that being the case—but the noble Lord, Lord Addington, is right that it is binary at this point. The Minister can give us an absolute assurance so that this goes away. We all hope that this gets killed as an issue and that we need never mention it again but, unless the Minister can give that absolute assurance, we are in a world where this does not go away; it is going to come back and hang on because there is risk. I am sorry to put it as bluntly as that but, unless the Minister can give a 100% yes, the lingering danger here is such a big own goal, as I mentioned before. We really need to take this opportunity to kill this as a subject right now.

Again, I thank my noble friend Lady Brady for bringing this issue up; I really hope that the Minister can clear it up once and for all.

Lord Addington Portrait Lord Addington (LD)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I just want to clarify my position. I did not want an absolute yes; I wanted a probable yes in the most civilised world. Going forward, that is what I was looking for, because we cannot let UEFA dictate our sovereign law to us, can we?

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Portrait Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Brady for her Amendment 67A and for the passion and clarity with which she set out her reasons for it; I am also grateful for her undoubted expertise in this area, as in so many others that we are examining in this Committee. This is a very important point, as my noble friend Lord Markham echoed. A number of clubs enter teams in international competitions, and these international competitions have their own requirements and rules by which the clubs who take part in them have to abide.

21:00
Any club wishing to take part in a UEFA competition must be granted a UEFA club licence before they are permitted to compete. These licences are accompanied by corresponding club licensing regulations that include provisions to
“ensure that clubs have an adequate level of financial management and organisation … protect the integrity and smooth running of the UEFA club competitions … safeguard each club’s identity, history and legacy”
and
“promote a healthy relationship between clubs and supporters”,
ensuring that everyone can access the game in a safe and secure environment.
I am sure that noble Lords will see that there is a distinct overlap between these stated aims and provisions and those we have been examining in the Bill.
Those requirements mean, as my noble friend set out, that Premier League clubs could face unique risks under the Bill’s proposed regime. They would have to ensure that they complied both with the new domestic regulations and with UEFA regulations. That could potentially generate conflicts that Premier League clubs would have to find a way to deal with while ensuring they maintain their places in both sets of competitions. If all clubs are regulated in the same way by the new domestic regulator we are considering in the Bill, those that also have to abide by the rules established by international competitions might be at a disadvantage.
So I am very glad that my noble friend has raised this point in Committee today, because it allows us to return to two very important issues with which we are not yet satisfied. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Addington, for the clarification of what he seeks but, whether it is on his slightly more relaxed test or the more stringent ones that some of my noble friends behind me are seeking, we have not yet had the answer that meets our satisfaction. I hope that the Minister can please us all in the Committee tonight, but she would be going some way if she pleases the noble Lord, Lord Addington, in the first instance. I hope that she will be able to, because it speaks to the uncertainty regarding UEFA’s view of the Bill.
As my noble friends have said, the Government are still not willing to disclose the letter from UEFA to the Secretary of State, so the Committee is operating without having seen it and without being able to be sure about whether UEFA is content with all the provisions of this proposed regulatory regime. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Addington, up to a point: we do not necessarily want UEFA to dictate the regime that we as a sovereign Parliament are looking at, but I think that all football fans would hope, as we look at this legislation and think about the appropriate regulatory regime, that we are mindful of the stipulations that competitions English teams currently participate in are not breached in a way that threatens our participation in them.
That is all the more important with regard to the specific question raised by the amendment. My noble friend is trying to ensure that there is no undue burden on certain clubs that also have to abide by UEFA rules and licensing requirements. Without reopening the can of worms on hybridity, it does bring up that question, since there will be an unequal impact between clubs that enter teams in international competitions and those that do not. It seems, from the way the Bill is constructed, that certain private interests will face differential treatment. So I am grateful to my noble friend for bringing this before us again and I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Baroness Twycross Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Twycross) (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, for tabling this amendment, which gives us a further opportunity to have a discussion on international competitions. I understand that the intent of the amendment is to ensure that English clubs can continue to participate and compete successfully in international competitions. That is something we all want. As we have discussed at length previously, the Government are confident that nothing in this Bill as drafted will jeopardise the participation of our clubs in international competitions.

The noble Baroness, Lady Brady, raised a point on UEFA statutes. As I have reiterated previously, in the strongest terms, we have engaged extensively with UEFA in the development of the Bill. As has been confirmed by the FA, we are confident that the Bill as drafted will not breach any of UEFA’s statutes. The regulator will be operationally independent of this Government and any future Government, and will not exert an undue influence on the FA’s ability to govern the game. This was confirmed by the FA itself in oral evidence given to the House of Commons Public Bill Committee on 14 May this year, during the passage of the previous Bill, introduced by the last Government. Both Ministers and officials have engaged regularly with the FA, UEFA and FIFA about the Bill, and they will continue to do so as the Bill progresses and beyond.

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Obviously that is great, but the Bill has changed since then, particularly around the backstop provision. The noble Baroness on the Labour Bench was talking about before this new Bill came into effect: does that still stand? Has there been an update from the FA on that, because some of the provisions in the Bill have changed?

Baroness Twycross Portrait Baroness Twycross (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I understand that the FA’s position on this point has not changed.

We completely agree that, in the course of regulating, the regulator should not unduly harm the ability of regulated English clubs to compete against their rivals and to succeed in those competitions. This is why Clause 7(2)(a) already relates to avoiding effects on the sporting competitiveness of one regulated club against another. This would cover the “differential impact” to which the noble Baroness’s amendment refers.

Clause 7(2)(b) also relates to avoiding

“adverse effects on the competitiveness of regulated clubs against other clubs”.

This includes against international competitors, as the Explanatory Notes clarify. These provisions already achieve the aims of the noble Baroness’s amendment to minimise impacts on competitiveness, and in fact do so more holistically, recognising that competitiveness matters beyond just the relatively small proportion of clubs competing in, or vying for, European football.

On the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, while I remain confident that nothing in the Bill as drafted would jeopardise the participation of English clubs in international competitions, I do understand his concerns. On UEFA and FIFA, we are speaking to the relevant authorities and will give noble Lords the reassurance on the specific points raised by the noble Lord in the coming weeks before Report.

For the reasons I have set out, I am unable to accept the noble Baroness’s amendment and hope that she will withdraw it.

Baroness Brady Portrait Baroness Brady (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response and other noble Lords for their contributions. However, I am deeply concerned about the assurances offered. While the Minister again claims that UEFA is comfortable with the Bill, the assertion is at odds with what we know. UEFA has explicitly raised objections to aspects of the Bill, including the risk of state interference breaching its rules. The correspondence exists, yet the Government refuse to publish it. If UEFA is so comfortable with the Bill, why the lack of transparency? Why not share its position openly with the House?

The Minister may be interested to know that, a couple of days ago, I spoke to Mark Bullingham, the CEO of the FA. He told me that only UEFA itself, not the FA, can confirm whether the Bill breaches its statutes, and that he believes that it will not give that confirmation because it will not want to give up its leverage. That is deeply worrying.

This amendment does not create complexity; it adds clarity. It ensures that the regulator considers the unique and unavoidable fact that Premier League clubs operate under dual compliance requirements—domestic regulation and UEFA licensing. Ignoring this reality risks leaving clubs exposed to significant conflicts with the governing bodies, which creates confusion and the instability that the Minister says the Bill seeks to avoid.

The claim that Premier League clubs are not disproportionately impacted is demonstrably incorrect. Only Premier League clubs are subject to UEFA licensing requirements, only they face the prospect of disqualification from European competitions, and only they are exposed to the dual pressures of domestic regulation and international oversight. They also fund the competition and the pyramid. This is not about prioritising one group of clubs over others; it is about recognising that their unique position requires tailored consideration.

The Premier League is not just a league; it is global powerhouse and the financial engine of our football pyramid. The risks of conflict with UEFA and FIFA are real, and they are uniquely borne by Premier League clubs. This amendment does not create division; it addresses it. It ensures that the regulator has the tools and the mandate to navigate these challenges fairly and effectively. I urge the Minister to reconsider her position as we progress towards Report and to reflect on the broader consequences of dismissing these concerns. But, for now, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 67A withdrawn.
Amendment 68
Moved by
68: Clause 7, page 5, line 26, at end insert—
“(2A) The IFR must publish an annual statement to report on how it has considered, measured and performed in relation to its general duties under 7(2).”
Lord Hayward Portrait Lord Hayward (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, in the absence of my noble friend Lord Maude, I rise to move Amendment 68. I intend to speak more fully later, but I welcome the group as it stands because the amendments in it cover the issues that will arise soon after the completion of this legislation. I beg to move.

Lord Ranger of Northwood Portrait Lord Ranger of Northwood (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I rise in support of this group of amendments, particularly my Amendment 328 in which, in short, I seek to assess the impact of the Bill and the independent football regulator on the Premier League.

When I spoke at Second Reading, I highlighted my view from the perspective of a fan of football because football is so much more—it is more than a business; it is a love, a passion, for billions around the world. In Committee, there has been much debate about the potential impact on the game, which is so loved and successful, from the implementation of an independent regulator which may inadvertently temper both the game’s passion and its commercial success. I now put on my business head and shall explore how the regulator means to measure its impact on the clubs it will regulate.

First, what data will the regulator require to report on its effectiveness and on how it is impacting football, particularly the Premier League? Secondly, how will the regulator report to the Secretary of State on how this global industry is operating in many different environments? When we start to explore that question, a further question should come to our minds: are we actually talking about football or something different?

My love for Tottenham Hotspur Football Club remains undiminished despite the testing of my resolve almost every weekend—and last weekend was no exception. However, I ask noble Lords to look further than what occurs on the pitch. My club, like many, has and will continue to invest heavily not just in players but in infrastructure. I must congratulate our chairman Daniel Levy on building a truly world-class stadium in Tottenham, but please note that I did not say “football stadium”, for the Tottenham Hotspur stadium is much more. It has been built to exacting specifications so that it can also host American National Football League games with an entirely separate pitch built underneath the football pitch—a real feat of engineering—and completely different changing rooms have been incorporated into the stadium to meet the exacting requirements of the NFL squad sizes and their expansive kits. More than 120,000 spectators watched NLF games at the Tottenham Hotspur stadium during 2019, 2022 and 2023, and thousands more will this year, which means that already 12 of the NFL’s 32 American teams have played in the new stadium.

But this is not all. We have also welcomed Beyoncé, Guns N’ Roses, Lady Gaga and many other world-class stars. World title boxing fights have been hosted, and we have F1 DRIVE London, the official Formula 1 karting experience. When I walk up towards this gigantic modern-day Colosseum that sits on White Hart Lane, I see the Premier League logo proudly attached to the facade but, alongside it, the Formula 1 and NFL logos—probably with space for a few more. The club quite rightly states on its website:

“Tottenham Hotspur Stadium has become a new sports and entertainment destination for London, bringing a boost of circa £344m to the local economy every year”.

Tottenham is widely regarded as a well-run football club, with owners firmly focused on delivering a sustainable business operation and quality entertainment—I will not talk about trophies.

21:15
Back to the subject of reporting, we are talking about not just football but a complex, multifaceted entertainment industry. I have not even touched on revenue streams such as merchandising, food and beverages, viewing rights and future developments such as digital and virtual fan day experiences, when tickets will be bought for experiencing the game in pseudo-virtual and immersive manners in venues away from the stadium or even in our own homes. The future of the game-day experience will continue to change, evolve and be even more innovative to capture and deliver more to fans to compete with the broader global sporting and entertainment industry, which all obviously means more revenue for the clubs.
I hear the voices saying, “This is just the big clubs, those at the top of the pyramid—the Premier League, the establishment”. But it is not. Clubs up and down the league pyramid are leveraging their assets—yes, at different sizes and scales, but they still are. They are hosting events within their grounds when they are not being utilised, building digital services and community forums and creating online fans. It is the way the industry is developing and innovating to cater for a growing marketplace, to deliver a product for those who wish to be entertained.
I am calling for a six-month report to the Secretary of State from the independent regulator, but I am really politely asking the Minister what the regulator will be reporting on. Will it have to forensically detach the revenue streams relating to non-footballing activities which are on the clubs’ balance sheets to give us a pure footballing revenue view so that it can be compared and contrasted on a footballing-pure basis? How will the criteria for reporting on the impact on the clubs’ finances be established? Will the regulator be expected to take a full 360-degree view of club finances both now and in the near future, or will it relate to revenues only generated by football-related activities?
Baroness Brady Portrait Baroness Brady (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I support Amendments 68, 89, 120 and 121, which focus on ensuring accountability and transparency and are critical to protecting the Premier League and safeguarding its unique role in the football pyramid.

This Bill introduces a radical new framework for the governance of football, one that includes significant regulatory oversight and redistribution mechanisms. We are the first country ever to do this, and I am worried that we may well suffer from first-mover disadvantage. There are profound changes in this Bill that will impact every level of the game, and it is essential that the Government and the regulator are held to account for the consequences of these measures. Regular reporting is not just a bureaucratic necessity; it is a vital safeguard to ensure that the interests of all stakeholders, particularly those of the Premier League, are protected.

If we are to introduce a regulator with such extensive powers, it must be held accountable for the full range of consequences its decisions may have. The competitive balance of the Premier League—its very dynamism and unpredictability—is central to its global appeal. This, in turn, drives its ability to attract world-class players, managers and investment, generating revenues that flow down the football pyramid. Yet, without baselining these measures or requiring the regulator to report on its impact in these areas, we risk implementing a system that could inadvertently undermine the Premier League’s success.

Similarly, international competitiveness is a crucial factor for the Premier League. It is the most watched and admired league in the world, representing a unique soft power asset for the UK. The ability of Premier League clubs to compete at the highest level in Europe has been a driving force behind their commercial success, as well as their capacity to support the wider game through solidarity payments and grass-roots initiatives, all of which are voluntary. However well-meaning, if the regulator’s interventions dampen investment or create uncertainty, this international competitiveness could be severely compromised, and yet somewhat incredibly there is no requirement in the Bill for the regulator to monitor or report on this.

Investment is another area where the absence of reporting requirements is deeply concerning. Premier League clubs operate in a highly competitive global market for players, sponsorship and broadcasting rights. Long-term investment decisions, whether in infrastructure, youth academies or community programs, depend on regulatory certainty and stability. If the regulator’s actions lead to a chilling effect on investment, it would have profound consequences not only for the Premier League but for the whole football ecosystem. Again, there is no provision in the Bill to track or report on this impact, leaving us blind to the unintended consequences that could arise.

The amendments before us, particularly Amendment 68, in the name of my noble friend Lord Maude, seek to address these gaps. They recognise that we cannot introduce such a transformative regulatory framework without ensuring that it is judged against the metrics that matter most: competitive balance, international competitiveness and the ability to attract investment. Unless we retain these qualities, we will end up with a much smaller, less well-funded and far less successful football pyramid. The question of stability in a rapidly declining ecosystem becomes somewhat irrelevant.

We must ensure that we have a clear understanding of whether this legislation is achieving its aims or instead introducing unintended and potentially harmful consequences. For example, if the redistribution mechanisms introduced by the regulator begin to destabilise clubs’ financial planning or deter investment, we must know about it quickly and transparently. If the regulator’s powers are being applied unevenly or disproportionately, we need to be able to challenge and rectify that. If the Premier League’s unique role in funding the pyramid is being undermined by these changes, we surely need a mechanism to address that impact.

I encourage the Minister to consider the spirit of these amendments and, between now and Report, consider ways that the accountability and transparency mechanisms can be considerably strengthened.

Lord Markham Portrait Lord Markham (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, in speaking to Amendment 120 and following on from the point that my noble friend Lady Brady made, I hope to put some meat on the bones of what we would be asking the regulator to produce in its annual report.

Right now, all that the Bill says is that we are asking it to produce a summary of the activities undertaken during the year and for any other information that the Secretary of State sees fit. The whole purpose of our debates over the last few days is to make sure the regulator is fit for purpose in its objectives and that its performance is then measured against those objectives. My amendment—non-controversial, I hope—is about trying to hold the regulator to account. It seeks to add that the regulator should look at and report on clubs’ compliance against directed action, regulator finances, enforcement action, their performance against their own objectives, how much time it has taken to grant licences to clubs and any salaries above £100,000. It is quite a simple list that seeks to hold the regulator to account and get clarity on what its performance has been for the year, so it can then improve performance going forward.

Lord Hayward Portrait Lord Hayward (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I will briefly follow on from the noble Lord, Lord Ranger, and the other contributions. The transitory nature of sport is such that, when the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, stood up to speak, West Ham were leading 2-0, but by the time she sat down they were leading 1-0—VAR had intervened. I pay credit to the noble Baroness for being here and paying such attention to the detail of the Bill, given the interest she declared, and which we are all aware of, in relation to West Ham.

The series of amendments here all deal with the reporting duty after the Bill has been passed and at the point of implementation. As others have indicated, it is key that there is a clear understanding, not only for the regulator or government but for the fans, who are key to the Bill—the whole idea of the Bill is about involving the fans—that the regulator is obliged to explain to the fans precisely why he has done things and that he recognises the impact of his actions on fans, clubs and players. At all levels, it is necessary that we have that information and understanding—and rapidly.

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Portrait Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I do not know whether the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, is proposing to speak to her amendments in this group.

Baroness Taylor of Bolton Portrait Baroness Taylor of Bolton (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The amendment in this group that I tabled has been covered by some of the earlier discussions we had and some of the assurances that the Minister gave.

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Portrait Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I look forward to her noble friend the Minister’s response to it, if she feels she has anything to add to it in this group.

The debates that we have had on this group, which concerns reporting requirements, cast my mind back to the debates we had during the passage of the Online Safety Bill on testing the duties for Ofcom to report back on how it would operate the new regulatory regime that the Act set up. My noble friend Lord Ranger of Northwood talked about future-proofing and emerging technologies, and this is an opportunity, through the reporting, to make sure that the changing technology and new areas of work are not just in the mind of the regulator but brought back before Parliament for some consideration.

My noble friend Lady Brady—I pay tribute to her being here for the consideration of the Bill, particularly this evening—described the first-mover disadvantage. Notwithstanding the points that the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, mentioned about the Italian and Spanish legislation—and I will certainly look at the extent to which that has lessons for us—what we are doing here is on a scale not done by any other jurisdiction. We want to make sure, as we are doing it, that it is working and that it is brought back before Parliament for proper consideration.

I am grateful to noble Lords who have brought amendments in this group and spoken to them. My Amendment 121 in this group is simple and technical. The Bill states that the regulator

“must arrange for a copy of every report under this section to be laid before Parliament by the Secretary of State”.

The wording of the amendment and the original wording of the Bill may seem very similar, but the substantive difference here is that we think that the duty should fall on the Secretary of State to lay the report before Parliament, not on the regulator. The Secretary of State is directly answerable to Parliament, whereas the independent football regulator, at least in the way that the Bill currently envisages it, is not. Surely it is therefore the Secretary of State’s responsibility to ensure that Parliament is fully informed of the actions of the regulator and to present the relevant documents to Parliament for scrutiny.

That would not be interfering with the regulator’s independence. Ministers already do this on behalf of other independent regulators: they are not carrying out the regulation but they bring documents before Parliament on the regulators’ behalf. Indeed, they are often asked about the way that regulation works, in addition to the power of Select Committees to call people who work at the regulators directly before them.

My amendment would also standardise the wording of the Bill. For example, Clause 11(6) states:

“The Secretary of State must lay any football governance statement, or any revised statement, published under this section before Parliament”,


and Clause 13(6) states:

“The Secretary of State must lay any guidance, or revised guidance, published under this section before Parliament”.


If the Bill envisages elsewhere that the onus is on the Secretary of State to lay documents before Parliament, I do not understand why it does not do so also in Clause 14. I am curious to probe the logic in the drafting to see why there is that discrepancy and whether we ought to change it.

21:30
Amendment 68 would require the regulator to publish an annual statement reporting on its success in fulfilling its general duties. It builds on the concerns that have been raised about the importance of expanding the duties that are placed on the regulator. Requiring an annual report would ensure that the regulator was forced constantly to assess how well it had performed its duties. A good regulator is self-reflective, and any regulatory body that does not look frequently at its own work and take stock of how well it is performing is surely doomed to fail. It would otherwise be all too easy to carry on its work creating ever-more burdensome rules, handing out fines and imposing other penalties without ever stopping to assess whether those actions were achieving the effects they intended.
The amendment seeks to provide the regulator with an annual opportunity to reflect on how successful it has been in avoiding the negative consequences established by Clause 7(2). That echoes some of the provisions in Amendment 89 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, which has broader scope and would require the regulator to publish a report detailing not just the extent of its success in discharging its duties but how it has achieved its objectives and complied with the regulatory principles. I rather support both those amendments.
Amendment 120 in the name of my noble friend Lord Markham seeks to amend Clause 14 to expand the content of the annual report that the regulator is required to produce. I added my name to the amendment because when reading the Bill we were both struck by how limited the current requirements are for this report. The Bill says only that the annual report
“must include … a summary of the activities undertaken by the IFR during that year, and … other information as the Secretary of State may direct”.
It leaves so much to the discretion of the Secretary of State—a member of the Executive—rather than somebody from the legislature.
This is Parliament’s opportunity to be a bit more assertive about the things that we would like to hear from the regulator on a regular basis, without relying on the discretion of the Secretary of State. That is not to second-guess what the present Secretary of State might request but to future-proof this and make sure that Parliament sets out those demands rather than the Government, with the Executive avoiding the need for Parliament to get what it wants. It is important that we do not miss the opportunity to be a bit clearer about what we would like here.
First, Amendment 120 would require the annual report to include the extent to which regulated clubs were complying with the rules and regulations established by the regulator. That would allow Parliament to examine whether the regulatory regime continued to be effective. If clubs were not complying with rules, Parliament, not just the Secretary of State, should be made aware so that it could examine the reasons and try to ensure that corrective action was taken.
The amendment would also require the regulator to include a statement of its finances for that year. This provision is very significant because it would force the regulator to be completely transparent about its financial situation. That is especially important during the initial period, as the Bill envisages it, when the functions of the regulator will be funded by the taxpayer. Any public body that is receiving public funds from the Exchequer must surely be required to publish its accounts so that Parliament and the taxpayer know how their money is being spent and can scrutinise this. That will be just as important once the levy system is up and running and it is the regulated clubs that are the funders of the regulator’s activities; I am sure they will equally want to keep a close eye on how their money is spent.
Transparency is also key when we consider the licensing regime. The amount of time taken to make a decision regarding operating licences will have a major impact on regulated clubs; if the regulator is not efficient in this process, it could compromise the ability of clubs to operate effectively. That certainty for clubs is vital; no club will be able to operate without knowing in a timely manner whether it has been successful in its application for a licence. Delays to this process could prevent clubs entering teams into competitions, hinder investment and, ultimately, harm the club’s financial sustainability, cutting against the core purposes of the Bill. It is more than reasonable that the period taken to grant licences should form part of this report and be published annually so that Parliament can hold the regulator to account in this area and ensure that it is performing its functions efficiently.
The last aspect of the amendment also seeks to ensure transparency by requiring the regulator to publish a list of employees who are paid a salary of more than £100,000. That is perfectly standard practice throughout the public sector, and I hope that it will not be controversial and that the Minister will be sympathetic to it.
With gratitude to my noble friends who brought amendments in this group, and indeed to noble Lords opposite who have done so as well, I hope the Minister will engage with this group on the reporting requirements and think, not just as the Minister presently at the Dispatch Box but as a parliamentarian, about the importance of the accountability that Parliament, as well as her right honourable friend the Secretary of State, needs.
Baroness Twycross Portrait Baroness Twycross (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, for moving Amendment 68 on behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Maude of Horsham, and all noble Lords for their thorough discussion of it and the other amendments in this group. The amendment, along with Amendment 89 from my noble friend Lady Taylor of Bolton, seeks to place additional reporting requirements on the regulator to increase transparency and accountability.

On Amendment 68, I understand the desire to ensure that the success of English football is protected and that the regulator monitors, evaluates and can be held accountable for its impact on the factors set out in Clause 7. However, the impact of the regulator in these areas should already be reviewed in both the “state of the game” report and the regulator’s annual report. This is true also in respect of Amendment 89. The annual report that the regulator will be required to produce and lay before Parliament at the end of each financial year will be on the exercise of its functions. The Secretary of State may also direct the regulator on what that annual report must include; they could, for example, already require the regulator to report on each of the specific aspects, including those in my noble friend’s amendment.

It is absolutely right that the regulator can be made to report on specific aspects of its performance and that these can vary from time to time, depending on the activity of the regulator and the state of the industry. We strongly expect that the regulator’s annual report would naturally include how well it had fared in advancing its objectives, but rest assured that if the regulator did not naturally report on this, the Secretary of State could direct it to.

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Portrait Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Does the Minister accept that if the Secretary of State decided that was not necessary but Parliament wanted to hear it, as the Bill is drafted, it is the Secretary of State who wins that? This is decided by the Executive and not by the legislature. Does she not think there is a role for Parliament to be a bit more assertive in what it would like to hear, rather than relying on a Secretary of State who shares its wishes and is willing to facilitate that?

Baroness Twycross Portrait Baroness Twycross (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I assume that if the relevant parliamentary committee felt that it was not getting the information it required, it would have quite an interesting evidence session with the regulator. It would be a very brave Secretary of State who did not include the information that Parliament wanted in an annual report of that nature or ask the regulator to do that. I can see the noble Lord shaking his head. I am not convinced that anything I could say on any of the points raised would satisfy him so, with respect, perhaps I could move on to other points.

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Portrait Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Minister is accidentally proving my point. This is the frustration of parliamentarians when we ask questions and do not get what we want from an Executive. She is right that there is a role for Select Committees here, but I worry that the Secretary of State may not need to be that brave to avoid asking for these things. We are just keen to probe how Parliament can be a bit more precise in making sure it gets what it wants, but I will let her continue.

Baroness Twycross Portrait Baroness Twycross (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I suggest that noble Lords might discuss this at further length with the shadow regulator. As noble Lords will be aware, they have made themselves available and I am sure that, as the Bill progresses, they would be happy to have further conversations.

I turn to Amendment 120 from the noble Lord, Lord Markham. As I touched on earlier, the annual report is a vital mechanism for the regulator to be held to account. I therefore understand the desire to ensure that this report is comprehensive and covers the necessary detail. It will be in the power of the Secretary of State to specify any required contents, which are not, as Amendment 120 would ask for, all listed in the Bill. This is so that a much more adaptive approach can be taken, year by year, and so as to not constrain the issues that should be covered in the report.

With regard to Amendment 121, I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, that the annual report will be laid before Parliament so that it can be scrutinised. If it is not, the regulator will be in breach of its statutory obligations; therefore, the intent of this amendment is already achieved.

Moving on to Amendment 122 from my noble friend Lord Bassam of Brighton, I thank him for raising this issue and am sympathetic to his viewpoint. Women’s football was discussed in the previous group of amendments and, as I outlined, the Government support the recommendation of the independent review of women’s football, published in July 2023. It set out that the women’s game should be given the opportunity to self-regulate, rather than moving immediately to independent statutory regulation. We appreciate, however, that this situation may change and that women’s football might need to be brought into scope down the line to safeguard its future.

As is clarified in the Explanatory Notes, the Secretary of State will already keep under ongoing review whether it is appropriate to amend the specified competitions. Clause 2(5) already requires the Secretary of State to carry out a formal assessment, including consultation, before doing this and to publish and lay its results before Parliament. The assessment can be triggered at any point so if any change in circumstance occurs, the Secretary of State is able to react. We therefore think that the principle of this amendment is already catered for and do not believe it is right for a clause with a specified timeline to be added to the Bill.

The Government recognise the intent behind Amendment 328 from the noble Lord, Lord Ranger of Northwood. It is vital that the regulator is transparent about the burden that its regulatory activities may have on clubs and competition organisers so that it can be held accountable. From the start, we have been clear that we wish to establish a regulator for football that will take a proportionate approach to regulation. We do not wish to introduce a regulator that will impose onerous and burdensome requirements on the clubs. That is why the regulator will have a statutory requirement when exercising its functions to have regard to the desirability of avoiding impacts on features such as competitiveness and investability. We expect that the impact of the regulator on the market, including on regulated clubs and the leagues, will be reviewed in both the “state of the game” report and the regulator’s annual report.

I reiterate: the Secretary of State and Parliament will be able to scrutinise these reports. We believe that this ongoing accountability is more appropriate than a one-time review by the Secretary of State six months after the Act has passed. It would not be fair or indeed helpful to evaluate the regulator’s performance or impacts after just six months of a brand new regime. For the reasons I have set out, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

Lord Hayward Portrait Lord Hayward (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 68 withdrawn.
Amendments 69 to 71 not moved.
Clause 7 agreed.
Amendment 72 not moved.
21:45
Clause 8: The IFR’s regulatory principles
Amendment 73
Moved by
73: Clause 8, page 6, line 3, leave out “should” and insert “must”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment requires the IFR to use its resources in the most efficient, expedient and economic way.
Lord Markham Portrait Lord Markham (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I have got up a number of times today to say that a particular amendment is not controversial and I hope it will be an easy one for the Minister to agree to. I have not been correct yet, because the Minister has not agreed to any, but I think that with this one I am on to a good thing. Everything that I am trying to do here is to make sure that what is written down in the Bill really does happen.

To take the exact wording on the regulator’s regulatory principles, in a number of places it says that it “should” use its resources

“in the most efficient, expedient and economic way”.

We are saying no, it must. It “should”, as far as is reasonably practicable,

“co-operate, and proactively and constructively engage”

with clubs, owners and competition organisers. Again, we are saying no, it must. There can be lots of good intentions, and lots of times when you can say that someone should do something. My mum told me that I should eat my greens. I cannot say that I always did. In all these instances, it is about making sure that the wording that the Minister and her team put in the Bill means that things really do happen.

Again, we suggest that the regulator “must” act in a way that

“recognises the specific context of football and the fact that clubs are subject to rules, requirements and restrictions”;

it “must” act consistently,

“recognising the differences between clubs and competitions and the differences between the circumstances affecting clubs”;

it “must” act in a way that

“recognises the responsibilities of owners, senior managers and other officers of clubs in relation to the requirements placed on clubs under or by virtue of this Act”;

and it “must” act

“as transparently as reasonably practicable”.

Again, we are just making sure that everything that the Minister has put down by way of the wording of Bill must happen, not just should happen. I think, this time, I am backing up exactly what the Minister would like to see happen. There are also a couple of other sensible amendments from others that fans should be consulted and engaged with in all this, which I also hope would get a resounding yes from the Minister. I look forward to hearing her response in terms of making sure that what she would like to happen really does happen. I beg to move.

Lord Watson of Invergowrie Portrait Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I speak to my Amendment 78, and I would like to begin with a quote, that

“there is no reference to players as a group the regulator should co-operate with … There is not a single mention of players, even though they are the main employment group within the regulated clubs. This means that the decisions that the regulator makes could have a tangible impact on their employment. For example, if the regulator exercises its powers to withdraw approval for a competition or refuses a licence to a club owner, there would be a direct consequence on the contracts of and conditions for players … Just as with fans, the professional game could not exist without players, so will the Minister explain why players are not mentioned in this part or elsewhere in the Bill?”—[Official Report, Commons, Football Governance Bill Committee, 16/5/24; col. 129.]

Those are the words of the then shadow Sports Minister, Stephanie Peacock MP, on 16 May, when the original version of this Bill was in Committee in another place. For that reason, I know that I am pushing at an open door here, because Stephanie Peacock is of course now the Minister for Sport.

As shadow Sports Minister, Stephanie Peacock not only robustly argued in favour of her amendment but then forced the matter to a vote, which, as is always the case with opposition parties in Committee in the other place, was lost. Therefore, it was both surprising and disappointing to myself and a number of others to find that this Bill—amended only in minor ways from the Tory Bill—did not include mention of players. Ms Peacock’s amendment in May this year included five categories of people and organisations to be added to Clause 8. I have taken out four of those so as to focus on much the most important: namely, the players.

Jock Stein, one of the greatest managers ever, once said, “Football without fans is nothing”. He was right, of course. As evidenced in 2020 during the pandemic, all games at the top level in England were played behind closed doors, and I defy anyone to say it was worth the effort. We all know it was driven shamelessly by the financial aspect of it, but as an experience it was, exactly as Mr Stein said, nothing.

Important as fans are—I am very much one of them—it was shown to be possible to play matches without them. Try doing the same without players. The players are not simply another stakeholder group in football, and it is fatuous, not to say insulting, that they should be categorised as such. Decisions made by the regulator have the potential directly to impact their careers and their contracts, as Stephanie Peacock said. It should not be left up to the regulator to decide whether they need to engage with them or not. In essence, this is, I believe, an employee relations issue rather than a football issue, as is the need for players to be viewed as distinct from other stakeholder groups.

The PFA—Professional Footballers’ Association—represents a very high proportion of the professional players in the Premier League and the English Football League. You might think that young men earning millions of pounds each season would not feel the need to join a trade union. You might, but according to the PFA, membership among Premier League players is close to 100%. Based on my experience as a full-time trade union official, that is remarkable in any sector of employment. But for such wealthy individuals to have calculated that there is benefit to them in becoming part of a union and working collectively, and having people work on their behalf, is astonishing. To suggest that players and their trade union should not be a group of people that the regulator should—to quote Clause 8—“proactively and constructively engage” with is frankly a nonsense.

The absence of players and their representatives constitutes a clear and obvious lacuna in this Bill so, with respect, I say to my noble friend, please sort it.

Lord Shamash Portrait Lord Shamash (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, Amendment 80 in my name seeks to include football supporters’ trusts on the face of the Bill to ensure that they are consulted on all matters relating to fan engagement as set out in the Bill. It is not intended to restrict the regulator, as the Bill states, or to restrict other fan groups being involved.

I declare an interest in that I am currently a director of Manchester United Supporters Trust and was its former chairman over the past decade. It is a very substantial trust with over 100,000 members, and initially came into being in 1998 in opposition to the Murdoch bid for the club, followed by the bitterly opposed leveraged takeover by the Glazer family in 2005. However, in the last decade, the trust has developed a constructive relationship with senior management which delivers fan consultation and representation for supporters. Supporters’ trusts are uniquely equipped to perform this role, and every club would benefit from engaging with such a body.

Currently, there are 149 supporters’ trusts across the football pyramid: 16 in the Premier League, 18 in the Championship, 20 in League One, 15 in League Two and 80 in non-league football. Most, if not all, trusts are registered with the FCA and operate under the Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies Act 2014.

I invite my noble friend the Minister to accept this amendment on the basis that supporters’ trusts provide an existing substantive platform for fans to have a voice in club decisions. It is a structure that should be utilised to the benefit of football as a whole. It is an existing and vibrant structure that I envisage the independent regulator would welcome working with from the outset.

It is important for the Committee to appreciate the many facets of supporters’ trusts and how they contribute to football as a whole. Invariably, the trusts are democratically elected, operating, as I have said, under FCA-approved constitution and rules. They help to ensure the interests of the wider fan base and community they represent. This is vital in sustaining the contact with fans and in the case of smaller clubs.

Trusts often emphasise local community values and initiatives. The trust can help to maintain strong ties with the local fan base, fostering a sense of belonging and identity. This is relevant to the Premier League as well as non-league clubs. Many clubs have charitable foundations that, in my experience, work closely with their trusts. Foundations work with local schools, using their links with the club to assist teachers in their roles. Many also support local food banks.

Trusts, by raising funds through their membership and donations, can contribute to the financial health of the club. This can be particularly beneficial in the smaller clubs that face financial difficulties, as has been seen in recent history, where trusts have been instrumental in saving their clubs.

Trusts invariably advocate for transparency in club operations, hoping to make club management accountable. This can, of course, lead to better governance practices and more ethical decision-making. The Bill, of course, very helpfully and constructively sets out the criteria which clubs and fan groups have to take into account. Supporters’ trusts wish to focus on the long-term sustainability of their club rather than short-term profits, which is often the case for the owners of clubs. This perspective can lead to more responsible management of resources. Where supporters’ trusts are represented on club boards, they can influence strategic decisions, ensuring that the fan perspective is included in the governance, which, of course, is crucial.

All fans can join trusts, and this can promote inclusivity within the club, assuring that the fans, regardless of background, have the opportunity to participate in club activities and governance. As has been seen in times of crisis, such as financial troubles or ownership disputes, trusts can mobilise fan support to advocate for the club’s best interests, potentially influencing outcomes in the interests of supporters and the club as a whole. An obvious recent example was the attempt by a few clubs, including Manchester United, to establish a closed European super league.

Overall, supporters’ trusts enhance the governance of football clubs by fostering a more inclusive, accountable and community-oriented approach. Therefore, with great respect to my noble friend the Minister, I urge that this amendment be accepted.

Lord Mann Portrait Lord Mann (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, my Amendment 81 stands in contrast to my noble friend’s amendment, which is very exclusive in suggesting that the only format of supporters’ group should be the trust format. In this country and, indeed, across the rest of the world there is a huge range of different kinds of football cultures and football groups.

I should declare an interest, of course. Although I have no pecuniary interest whatever—I own no shares, and I receive no dividends or payments—I have the joy, or the pain, of being able to discuss with my many thousands of members the trials and tribulations of Leeds United Football Club. A number are in this Chamber even this evening—more than one.

However, there are different kinds of fan group. If the Government—or, at a later stage, the House—wish to see the regulator having to liaise with fan groups, then in essence there is a range of choices. It could be randomised—whoever the regulator chooses, but that seems neither appropriate nor efficient. It could be, as my noble friend suggests, exclusively for the trusts, or it could be, as I am suggesting, any fan group that has some kind of democratic structure. The reason for a democratic structure is that you are then representing somebody rather than representing yourself.

22:00
My amendment would incorporate all the trusts. The fundamental difference tends to be that a lot of the trusts want to own part of their football club. My fan group has no desire to own part of our club. We see the model of football as being a range of different major investors in a multi-million—and, sometime in the future, multi-billion—pound business. The last thing we want is to meddle with those financial decisions. Neither do we want to be making decisions on sacking managers or appointing them, selling players or buying them.
Particularly on the selling of players and the sacking of managers, we take the approach that we would never call for our owner to be replaced. Not all the owners that I have witnessed have been the best of choices over the years, but we never call for the manager to be sacked. Indeed, when the club is potentially about to sack the manager, we continue to support the manager until the manager is no longer our manager. Mr Bielsa once rang me, in rather a Spanish way, to thank the fans for continuing to support him when even the club owners had clearly lost some confidence in him. It is how we define supporting the club. We are not there to run the club but to support it. We are not there to try to own the club. As well as the trust organisations, which fulfil a different role and have a different perspective to be consulted, there are quite a number of these kinds of supporter groups across the country. We are members because we love supporting our club. Having the fan voice consulted by the regulator would help the regulator, particularly in some of the minutiae of getting it right.
My final point concerns a significant group: I refer to the Jewish supporters’ groups that have been set up. I have just had a meeting, having had the chance to escape from here, with the whole group on its plans for the future. There are groups coming from the Jewish community, the Muslim community, the Sikh community and other communities, who want simply to enjoy supporting their team and sometimes meeting together. If these groups had a proper structure, they would be good for the regulator to consult when it is relevant. I think we should be inclusive rather than exclusive in relation to this.
Lord Moynihan Portrait Lord Moynihan (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, it is a privilege to follow the noble Lord, Lord Mann, not least because I am a member of his supporters’ group. We also have another supporters’ group, for Leeds United. Members of Parliament in both Houses are parties to the WhatsApp group. While the public-facing position regarding the manager is always one of support, it cannot always be said that those on the WhatsApp group speak in such gentle and supportive terms of the manager after one or two defeats.

That aside, I support the noble Lord, Lord Watson. He made an extremely important point, and it was wise to pray in aid the Minister in another place regarding his Amendment 78. If we are to have a regulator, surely, in terms of financial regulation and the overall financial role, we cannot just ignore the players, let alone the fact that they are right at the heart of the game.

The total wage bill across Europe’s big five leagues—England, Germany, Spain, Italy and France—was £13 billion in 2022-23, up from 12.3 billion in the prior season. We all know that, in certain circumstances, players are brands in their own right. Many boast bigger social media followings than their clubs. Sponsors know this, investors are taking note and the clubs know it.

Only this week in the Financial Times, the IMG sports and entertainment president, George Pyne, stated:

“The players are the most valuable asset in the sport … With social and digital media, commercial opportunities today are more valuable than they might have been 10 years ago because these players are now brands in themselves”.


It is a people business; it is relationships that matter, and relationships with the players are central to the success of any football club. The noble Lord, Lord Watson, is right. If we are to have a state-appointed regulator, that regulator, in looking at the finances of the club and taking an overall view of it, must engage with the footballers and listen to their representations.

Baroness O'Grady of Upper Holloway Portrait Baroness O’Grady of Upper Holloway (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, and to support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Watson. Your Lordships may expect a former TUC leader to advocate the principle of workforce engagement and consultation, but it was over a decade ago that the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, in his report No Stone Unturned, talked about the value of what he called “shop-floor wisdom”.

It is not just a case of fair access. In my experience, there have been many positive examples of where shop-floor wisdom has made for much better decision-making. The workforce and their representatives are what I would describe as the canaries in the mine. They can see when organisations are heading for trouble from the inside, they have good ideas about how to make industries stable, sustainable and fair, and their ideas deserve to be heard. Nowhere is that more relevant than in football. When club owners and managers tell the regulator a particular story, players and their representatives can provide a crucial quality check.

They may agree with the owners; they may not. But the new regulator would benefit from hearing the workforce perspective. I have heard a lot about finances in this debate. I offer just a gentle reminder that, if you were to ask any fan, they would say that true wealth is created on the pitch. Like Labour and, indeed, across this House, the PFA proudly believes in the unifying power of football in society, and it is a guardian of those values. Players must have a right to a voice: a right, enshrined in law, to be consulted on equal terms.

Lord Addington Portrait Lord Addington (LD)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I have had my name down as a supporting figure on three occasions. I just cannot resist, with this talk of “should” and “must”. It does sound awfully like “may” and “shall”, which is something steady to go back to. My question for the Minister is: is there any difference legally between the two words? If there is not—in certain circumstances, there is not—can we just hear that?

On the amendments, I start with the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Watson, which I supported. Yes, you should consult your players. They are your primary asset; they are what the fans come to watch. It would seem sensible; that is why I am in support. I realise that I might be backing two horses in the same race by putting my name to these two amendments, but the fact is that various fan groups need some interaction with the regulator. How that is done is incredibly important.

To return to the players, without them you have no product. You have no financial resource; you have nothing to come behind. Not consulting them is ridiculous, to be perfectly honest. Many people will tell me that they are overpaid namby-pambies or whatever. I do not agree, but people will tell you that. The fact is that every time you run around as a professional athlete, you are risking your career, or risking it being shortened. Every time you are told to play that extra game when you are not quite ready for it yet, or you are a little bit tired, you are risking your career and your professional value. You may be playing injured, for instance. We should hear from this group. They have short, often very productive careers.

Often, though, they do not. What we tend to do in this debate is think about the Premiership, but we are talking about the entire structure, going down. Many people are just making a living—sometimes a good living—for a short period of time. We must make sure that they are consulted as well. The entire structure going down is something that we are in danger of forgetting repeatedly in this Bill. So I hope that the Minister will give us some clarification here. Players must be consulted and there must be a way of talking to the fans. Is this just another one of the hardy perennials of Parliament going down the “may” or “shall” route? Does the wording change in the lead amendment make any difference?

Baroness Brady Portrait Baroness Brady (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I support the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Watson. I wholeheartedly agree that footballers are at the heart of football. Without them, we certainly could not achieve anything at all. The relationship with players is absolutely vital to football clubs. West Ham was one of the very few clubs during the pandemic where I and my footballers took a 30% pay cut to ensure that all other staff were paid in full and that nobody lost their job; that is part of the spirit and it is why footballers really must be consulted.

I also support Amendment 86, which would introduce vital principles to guide the regulator’s approach. These principles reflect a sophisticated understanding of how football actually works and what makes it successful. The existing principles in Clause 8 of the Bill appear largely defensive and process focused. In essence, they tell us that the regulator should use resources efficiently, co-operate with stakeholders and act proportionately. With respect, I would argue that these are descriptions of basic administrative competence, not meaningful regulatory philosophy. No one would argue for inefficiency or disproportionality, and that is really the test of whether these are real, consequential principles.

More concerning is what these principles admit. They say nothing about preserving what makes English football successful; nothing about maintaining the competitive tension that drives our game’s appeal; and nothing about enabling the responsible ambition that has created the world’s most watched sporting competition.

Let me begin with the fundamental point that I believe is captured by this excellent amendment: the need for clearly identified harm and least-intrusive measures. Football thrives on calculated risk taking and sporting ambition. A regulator consistently intervening without clear necessity will suffocate the very qualities that make our game exciting. This is not about weakening regulation; it is about making it effective.

Consider how successful football regulation actually works. The Premier League has developed sophisticated mechanisms for maintaining financial sustainability while preserving competitive tension. When issues arise, they are typically best addressed through existing structures that understand football’s unique dynamics. This amendment would ensure that the regulator works with those proven systems rather than creating unnecessary parallel requirements.

The principles around competitive tension and ambitious ownership are particularly crucial. The Premier League’s success rests on maintaining genuine competition, where any club can succeed through good management and investment. Aspiration can happen because clubs are empowered and incentivised to take measured risks in pursuit of sporting achievement. The amendments focus on commercial autonomy and innovation, reflecting another vital truth: football’s success comes from constant evolution. The Premier League leads the world precisely because it enables responsible innovation in everything from broadcasting arrangements to community engagement. Overly prescriptive regulation risks spoiling this competitive advantage that we have developed.

Most importantly, these principles would ensure that the regulator maintains proper focus by requiring clear evidence of harm and demonstration that the existing structures cannot address issues. We would avoid unnecessary intervention while maintaining proper oversight. This would help us enhance, rather than inhibit, what makes English football successful.

Lord Wrottesley Portrait Lord Wrottesley (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I rise briefly to seek clarity on a key point that does not seem clear in some of noble Lords’ amendments, in particular Amendment 79 from this group. From what I can tell in reviewing the Bill and debates around it—I beg your Lordships’ and particularly the Minister’s indulgence if I have missed something and this has been adequately addressed—we have not yet defined a fan. I make my sincere apologies, but I need to point out this abundantly obvious fact. Amendment 79 is a one-word amendment.

22:15
We are told that the Bill’s purpose is to
“promote the sustainability of English football”
and its structures. These structures will be considered sustainable if they
“serve the interests of fans”
and
“contribute to the economic or social well-being of the local communities”.
However, as I mentioned on a previous amendment, while we need to define or maybe expand on definitions of sustainability—and maybe even expand the purpose of the Bill to include growth and/or success, not merely sustainability—we also need to clarify who is considered a fan.
It seems counterintuitive and—given my understanding of corporate governance, in particular sport governance—frankly perverse and obtuse that we should structure legislation that is supposed to benefit someone without clearly defining who that someone is. I am afraid my view is that implicit definitions are not going to be effective, let alone sufficient, in guiding the regulator to the right conclusions. The legislation needs to make that definition explicitly, as it has done with other key definitions.
All the other principal, individual protagonists in this drama are defined—from owners to officers to senior managers. Groups or collectives are also defined, such as clubs, teams and competition organisers, to name just a few. Even football itself has its own definition, and esoteric matters such as heritage are defined, but fans do not get a look-in. That is somewhat strange, given that the central purpose of the Bill is to represent fans’ interests. Why are fans not defined? My question to the Minister is: why is the key protagonist in all this, the fan, not defined in the Bill?
Lord Goddard of Stockport Portrait Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Can I help the noble Lord? The debate on defining sustainability was about three hours on the first day and, on fans, about two and a half hours on the second day. I think we have done both of those subjects to death, for hours and hours.

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Portrait Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We did not get to a conclusion.

Lord Goddard of Stockport Portrait Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We may not have got to a conclusion, but what about repetition? Here we go again. We have had the discussion; the Minister gave us her answer; we move on. But we have not moved on because, two days later, it is brought up again—and again and again.

This is the frustration that some people are having. I understand the need to examine and tease out but, if we do not like the teasing out, we cannot keep going back every day to keep teasing out. We will never finish; that is the problem with it. We have had an enormous debate on sustainability and on fans.

Lord Hayward Portrait Lord Hayward (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I rise to make one point of clarification. I support the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Watson, and would be very pleased if the Minister indicated her support for it, because I have been having discussions about whether we should table further amendments on players in other parts of the Bill—but I will wait on the interest.

The noble Baroness, Lady Brady, referred to players and touched on the question of staff. It is not only players who should be included; there should also be references to staff because, after all is said and done, any football club employs not only players but large numbers of staff. Both players and staff should be covered by any amendment.

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Portrait Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, it is telling that so many noble Lords from both principal sides of your Lordships’ House have tabled amendments about the regulatory principles established by the Bill, which have been gathered in this group. The noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie, has assembled an impressive coalition of support for his Amendment 78. He secured the support of my noble friend Lady Brady, his friend the noble Baroness, Lady O’Grady of Upper Holloway, and the present Sports Minister, Stephanie Peacock. The Minister keeps reminding us of things that were said in the last Parliament and arguing that we should be bound by them, so I hope she will demand the same consistency from her honourable friend and will pay heed to the support that Amendment 78 has secured.

I think the noble Lord, Lord Watson, is right that this seems a clear and obvious lacuna in the Bill. I do not think we have had a professional footballer in your Lordships’ House. We have professional cricketers and Olympians and Paralympians, and we have noble Lords with interesting and considerable experience, but he has given voice to a group of people who have not yet been spoken up for in this Bill. Perhaps noble Lords can think of one. I cannot, so maybe it is a suggestion for his noble friend.

Lord Watson of Invergowrie Portrait Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am slightly embarrassed, but there has been a former professional footballer on the Labour Benches. He is now deceased. He was certainly here in the early 2000s. I shall find out his name.

Lord Evans of Rainow Portrait Lord Evans of Rainow (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, it was Lord Burlison.

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Portrait Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my noble friend and the noble Lord for rightly recalling him. It is right that he and professional footballers are getting the attention they deserve. I look forward to the noble Baroness’s response.

I have risen to speak to my amendments in this group—Amendments 74, 75, 76, 82, 84 and 85—as well as to express my support for Amendments 73 and 83 in the name of my noble friend Lord Markham and Amendments 86 and 87 in the name of my noble friend Lord Maude of Horsham.

My Amendment 74 focuses on the meaning of the word “expedient”. I know the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, did not like it last time I mentioned a dictionary definition. The noble Lord, Lord Goddard, reached for his dictionary earlier in today’s Committee, so I hope she will not mind me doing so. I think it is important in this instance because in the Cambridge English Dictionary the word “expedient” is defined as,

“helpful or useful in a particular situation, but sometimes not morally acceptable”.

I was quite struck by that definition. I am not quite sure why a regulator, a public body, should be using its resources in a manner that is sometimes improper or immoral, and I think it is worth scrutinising the choice of that word and the message it might send to the independent regulator.

Our choice of language matters, particularly where legislation is concerned. The words in front of us in the Bill, as well as those uttered by the Minister from the Dispatch Box opposite, can be called upon in a court of law and relied upon to explain decisions and decide appropriate courses of action. The regulator will be deriving its power from this Bill and will be operating according to the principles set out in Clause 8, so it is an absolute necessity that the language in the Bill is clear and well chosen, and I do not think “expedient” meets that test.

A number of the amendments in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Markham in this group are very simple. As the noble Lord, Lord Addington, highlighted, they change “may” or “should” to “must”. I echo the points that he made, and that the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, made when she had an amendment making the same change earlier in the Committee. When moving that amendment, she noted that it was pretty straightforward, and I would make the same observation about our amendments today.

In seeking to make these straightforward changes, we are asking the Government why the less rigorous words “may” and “should” have been used in these instances. That is important to ascertain because of the significance of establishing the regulatory principles in the Bill. The first principle is that the regulator should use its resources in the most efficient—“expedient” as presently set out—and economic way. However, any public body that will be taking funds from the public purse, which this regulator will in its initial period, must be required to use its resources in the most efficient and economic way possible. The word “should” gives a degree of leeway here. I am sure that the clubs that will be paying the levy would not be happy with the regulator using the money they are giving it in an inefficient and uneconomical manner, so Amendment 73 attempts to tighten the phrasing here and remove that leeway.

My Amendment 75 would change the “may” to a “must” in paragraph (b). This would mean that the Bill required the regulator to co-operate and engage with the relevant parties. That amendment is complementary to my Amendment 76, which would leave out the words

“so far as reasonably practicable”.

Again, that amendment is about tightening up the wording of this provision to give the regulator strict instructions rather than looser intent.

I have put my name to Amendment 79 alongside those of the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, and the noble Lords, Lord Bassam of Brighton and Lord Addington, which would also amend paragraph (b). The amendment would add fans as one of the parties with which the regulator must co-operate and would therefore standardise this paragraph with other portions of the Bill.

My other amendments in this group—that is, Amendments 82, 84 and 85—would all change a “should” to a “must”. Amendment 82 would amend paragraph (d) so that the regulator must acknowledge the unique sporting context of football. That is particularly important for regulated clubs since, as the Bill rightly points out and as my noble friend Lady Brady and others have been keen to stress, football clubs operate in a very different environment from other businesses. The top clubs in the English football pyramid will have teams in both national and international competitions, so the rules and regulations they will already be required to follow must be taken into account by the new regulator.

My Amendment 84 states that the independent football regulator must hold officers of a club responsible for the actions of the club where appropriate.

Amendment 85 says that the regulator must operate transparently. Transparency, of course, has a wide range of benefits. The Institute for Government, in its report The Benefits of Transparency, argues that:

“Collating and publishing government data can also help improve the performance of government services, through the monitoring of key metrics and by increasing access to data across government”.


The Institute for Government also points to benefits relating to improved efficiencies, accountability and value for money. Given all this, surely the Bill’s language should seek to require this new regulator to operate with that sort of transparency as well.

I will not enter into the debate that we had over the rival Back-Bench Labour Amendments 80 and 81 from the noble Lords, Lord Shamash and Lord Mann—although the noble Lord, Lord Addington, in true Liberal Democrat fashion, has signed both. I am interested in the Minister’s view as to whether, between those two, she has a preference in consulting supporters, trusts or elected representatives of football club supporters’ groups. I will not reopen the question of the definition of fans, but I am interested in whether she has a preference between those two amendments.

Baroness Twycross Portrait Baroness Twycross (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Markham and Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, and, through them, the noble Lord, Lord Maude of Horsham, and my noble friends Lord Bassam of Brighton, Lord Watson of Invergowrie, Lady Taylor of Bolton, Lord Shamash and Lord Mann, for these amendments. This has been a wide-ranging debate.

I particularly welcome the intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Goddard, and the clarity that he provided. I have noted a number of noble Lords coming back and asking me similar questions to those that we have we had in previous groupings. I will endeavour to continue to give the same answer when required, but it was helpful for the noble Lord to point out that at times we are having a circular and repetitive discussion.

Amendments 73, 74, 75, 76, 82, 83, 84 and 85 in the name of the noble Lords, Lord Markham and Lord Parkinson, intend to reword the regulatory principles. They seem fundamentally driven by the desire to ensure that the regulator is held more strongly to the principles. However, we are confident that the current wording of the Bill, which has not changed since the previous Conservative Government laid this Bill before Parliament, is more than sufficient to ensure that the regulator operates in an appropriate way and strikes the balance between steering the regulator’s approach and not impinging on its adaptability and independence. By laying out explicitly in the Bill the principles by which the regulator should exercise its functions, we are already making a clear statement about the importance of these stated factors. However, these are intended to be principles, not duties, and the drafting reflects that.

In relation to the questions from the noble Lord, Lord Addington, on the difference between “must”, “should” and so forth, we do not agree that the regulator must be required to do these things at all times and in all cases but rather that some flexibility is important. To give an example, if the regulator were enforcing against a club, it might not be appropriate or possible for the regulator to constructively engage and co-operate with that club, as principle (b) encourages it to do. By having these principles as “should” and not “must”, that flexibility is achieved.

22:30
I turn to Amendments 86 and 87, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Maude of Horsham. On his Amendment 86, I will take each proposed new principle individually. On his proposed new principle (h), we believe that this is covered through the regulatory principles already—in particular, principle (c) on proportionality, which gets to the heart of what he is proposing here. We believe that the aspects in proposed new principles (i), (j) and (k) are already covered by the duty in Clause (7)(2) to have regard to key secondary outcomes such as competitiveness and investment. There is nothing in the regulator’s regime that will preclude ambitious investment, provided that it is done sustainably. On proposed new principle (l), this is already achieved by Clause 88, which places restrictions on the disclosure of information.
Finally, on the noble Lord’s proposed new principle (m), the regulator should not be taking its lead from competition organisers. The reason for introducing this legislation is that regulation from industry has proven inadequate. The system is designed so that the regulator will not intervene if the required standards are being met. If clubs are meeting their threshold requirements through their compliance with the industry’s own existing rules, the regulator will not need to apply discretionary licence conditions.
On the noble Lord’s Amendment 87, we do not think that attempting to fix in statute the number of employees that the regulator will be limited to, without an understanding of the workload or type of regulatory activity required, is appropriate. The regulator may need more than 40 full-time equivalents, or it may need fewer. That will be for the regulator to decide once it is set up, and this may change over time as appropriate to its workload. The Government will scrutinise its costs and the regulator will be governed by the Managing Public Money principles to ensure that it delivers value for money.
I understand that Amendments 77, 78, 79, 80 and 81 seek to include different groups in the Bill for the regulator to co-operate and proactively and constructively engage with. I acknowledge that the intent of Amendment 77, in the name of my noble friend Lord Bassam of Brighton, is to elevate the voice of minority groups in football and ensure that the regulator appropriately engages and considers the interests of these groups.
My noble friend Lord Watson of Invergowrie spoke passionately on his Amendment 78, along with my noble friend Lady O’Grady of Upper Holloway, the noble Lords, Lord Moynihan and Lord Addington, and the noble Baroness, Lady Brady. We recognise the vital role that football players play in the industry. It was helpful of the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, to point out that there are other people who work for football clubs, but it is the players who draw the crowds, viewership and revenues that come with this. I look forward to future discussion, ahead of Report, on the interesting points that all noble Lords raised. It was a particularly interesting point of consensus across the Committee.
Amendments 79, 80, and 81 are in the names of my noble friends Lady Taylor, Lord Shamash and Lord Mann. We recognise the intent behind these amendments to add “fans”, “supporters’ trusts” and
“elected representatives of club supporters groups”
to the list of persons that the regulator should co-operate and proactively and constructively engage with. I recognise the wealth of experience that noble Lords have between them in this area.
Lord Moynihan Portrait Lord Moynihan (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I appreciate that the Minister is trying to make progress and is moving through a large number of amendments. To refer back to Amendment 78, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Watson, the Minister said that she looked forward to a further discussion at a later stage. Could she state whether she agrees with the idea that the regulator must engage with football players and their representatives? I think the mood of the Committee went a bit further than just having hopeful discussions in future, and that this was something that really should be considered to be placed in the primary legislation. Could she be a little more explicit? I know that she was sympathetic, but does she agree that that is an issue that should now be looked at in the context of the legislation?

Baroness Twycross Portrait Baroness Twycross (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The noble Lord might need to be content with my sympathy at this stage. I genuinely look forward to future discussions on this point.

Overall, the Government have been clear that the regulator should take a participative approach to regulation, meaning that it would co-operate constructively with the regulated industry where possible. There are some parts of the Bill—this is one of them—that directly relate to the people or organisations being regulated, rather than to stakeholders across the game more widely. The intention of the regulatory principle in question is to guide the regulator to co-operate constructively specifically with the regulated industry where possible, as this co-operative approach might not otherwise be explicit. We think that to list every possible stakeholder, or possible interpretation of fans or fan groups, that the regulator “should” ever engage with during the course of regulation, could be onerous on participants and the regulator. However, I am happy to meet my noble friends to discuss further how we can reassure fans that they will be consulted where appropriate. For supporters and their relevant representative groups it is clear that the regulator should be acting in their interests. There are several places where this is formalised through specific consultation requirements; for example, in relation to Clause 45, the prohibited competitions clause.

For decisions materially impacting players, I recognise that the game is nothing without players, as I said earlier; it is absolutely right that the regulator works with them on matters that impact them. As I mentioned, the specific regulatory principle in question is intended to steer the regulator to co-operate with the regulated population. This does not include players, as they are not themselves subject to the regulator’s regime. This would be not an appropriate place to include players, or indeed any other stakeholder group. However, I understand the desire among noble Lords to ensure that important stakeholder groups are appropriately acknowledged in the Bill.

I am sure we will revisit this topic ahead of Report and in future debates. With that said, and for the reasons I have set out, I am unable to accept the amendments in this group. I hope that noble Lords and my noble friends will not press them.

Lord Markham Portrait Lord Markham (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the Minister. I thought we had an uncontroversial set of amendments with a great deal of consensus around the issue of players and fans. I thought that we almost had the ball in the back of the net. We had some sympathy from the Minister, who said she was looking forward to discussing this further; unfortunately, we did not quite get a yes. I hope we can firm that up as we continue to press for a goal as the Bill approaches Report. There was a large degree of consensus in the Chamber that we definitely “must” include players and fans, rather than just “should”. I hope we are able to pursue that further as the Bill progresses. With that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 73 withdrawn.
Amendments 74 to 87 not moved.
Amendment 88
Moved by
88: Clause 8, page 6, line 24, at end insert—
“(2) The IFR is subject to the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and the Equality Act 2010.”
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Portrait Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I have the only amendment in this group. Amendment 88 is intended merely as a probing amendment to give us the opportunity to ask the Minister what the Government’s policies will be with regard to the other legal requirements that will be placed on the regulator. I am simply seeking some clarifications here, which I hope she can give.

The amendment states that the independent football regulator must be bound by the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and the Equality Act 2010. I note that Schedule 12 addresses these issues by inserting the name of the independent football regulator into the respective Acts of Parliament, but I am seeking clarification principally on how the Government will put in place concrete plans of action to ensure that the regulator abides by both those Acts.

I must admit that I have not read from cover to cover Sir Tony Blair’s memoir A Journey, published in 2010, but there is one passage that I have read and re-read with relish. It is brief so, mindful of the entreaties of the Government Chief Whip but noting the fans of Sir Tony on the Benches opposite, I will quote it:

“Freedom of Information. Three harmless words. I look at those words as I write them, and feel like shaking my head till it drops off my shoulders. You idiot. You naive, foolish, irresponsible nincompoop. There is really no description of stupidity, no matter how vivid, that is adequate. I quake at the imbecility of it. Once I appreciated the full enormity of the blunder, I used to say—more than a little unfairly—to any civil servant who would listen: Where was Sir Humphrey when I needed him? We had legislated in the first throes of power. How could you, knowing what you know have allowed us to do such a thing so utterly undermining of sensible government?”


I was struck by that passage. It bears returning to. There are lessons there for a Labour Government with a large majority and seeking to legislate in new ways to reflect on. But this is the law of the land and these are important Acts of Parliament. I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify what actions the Government will take to ensure that the regulator acts with the transparency required under the Freedom of Information Act, notwithstanding Sir Tony’s views on it now, and the Equality Act 2010. I beg to move.

Baroness Twycross Portrait Baroness Twycross (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, for this amendment to ensure that the regulator must comply with the Freedom of Information Act and the Equality Act. This is, of course, very important. That is why, per the consequential amendments outlined in paragraphs 4 and 9 of Schedule 12, the regulator will already be subject to these Acts. As a result, this amendment would duplicate this requirement that is already in the Bill and is therefore not necessary. As the noble Lord will be aware from his time as a Minister, legislation should be clear and concise where possible. His amendment would lengthen the Bill to duplicate an existing requirement. On that basis, I hope he will feel able to withdraw it.

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Portrait Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to the Minister. As I say, I was mindful that it is in Schedule 12, but she did not give much additional information on how the Government will seek to work with the regulator in making sure that it is adhered to. However, I appreciate that that is for the regulator. I am grateful to her for those reassurances. I have not yet had the pleasure of reading the former Prime Minister’s memoir from cover to cover so, with Christmas coming, I note that my wish list is still to be filled. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 88 withdrawn.
Clause 8 agreed.
Amendment 89 not moved.
Clause 9 agreed.
Amendment 90 not moved.
Amendment 91
Moved by
91: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause—
“Televising of football matches of national interest(1) The Communications Act 2003 is amended as follows.(2) After Section 299 (categorisation of listed events) (2)(d) insert—“(e) the Independent Football Regulator, established by the Football Governance Act 2024, in relation to televising of football matches between licensed football clubs.””Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment adds the IFR as a statutory consultee on the listing of sporting events for free-to-air coverage.
Lord Addington Portrait Lord Addington (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, my noble friend Lord McNally tabled two amendments about making sure that terrestrial television carries football matches.

When we talk about the quality of football that makes the nation treasure it, access is an important factor. We have had many arguments about what should be covered by free-to-air services. What should be on there? The “crown jewel” events. We are talking about something that we have had for a long time, because there are certain events that will not be hidden behind a pay wall. Seeing one or two of these primary gems makes sure that you have a better connection with the rest of the game. I hope that we will make sure that we continue to get them.

22:45
I could go on and wax lyrical, but I would not be able to do it as well as my noble friend. I will leave the Committee with just this thought: if we are going to continue to have this strong connection with our fan base, we really should have this approach to free-to-air services, or something like it, restated—and this Bill would be a good place to do it. I hope that we can get from the Minister a commitment that we will not restrict it further.
Usually, with football—or whatever other sport—we say, “We can make lots of money out of it and we will do lots of good things with the money, but we can’t have it free to air”. The only sport I have ever heard people argue for the other way around was rugby league: it wanted to be a “crown jewel” event, but it maintains quite good free-to-air services. I hope that the Minister will agree that we should continue to have free-to-air services and listed events, that they should continue to be an important factor and that football will not find itself able to remove them. I beg to move.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie Portrait Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Addington, in Amendments 91 and 92. I support his view on having free-to-air services for certain sports. My main reason is to expose those sports to the next generation—the youngers coming through. He mentioned rugby—which is not as available as it used to be, certainly not compared with when I was young—but this applies to other sports, including cricket specifically, as well as golf and boxing, which all now have very restricted free-to-air viewing. You wonder what that does to the current generation of children, who may want to be exposed to the sport, but cannot because their parents, for whatever reason, do not have subscriptions to the various channels.

Of course, the regulator will not cover Scotland—perhaps it will have its own regulator following this—but, currently, the Scotland men’s national football matches are available only on YouTube. You could say that that is equivalent to free-to-air viewing, but it is not in any way how international football should be presented. The whole question of how sport is made available to future generations—although it is not really for our debate today—is one that we need to think about very seriously.

Lord Moynihan Portrait Lord Moynihan (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I say simply that, while some very good arguments have been put forward, we have to be very careful here. The whole question of listed events that the noble Lord, Lord Addington, and I have been engaged on for many decades, let alone a year, is a complicated and difficult issue.

Currently, the Secretary of State has to opine as to whether listing an event meets the criterion of having “special national resonance”. That, in its own right, is a difficult thing for the Secretary of State to opine on. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, will recall that, only five years ago, the then Secretary of State made a famous speech on listed events where she put forward the idea that whenever a men’s event was listed, the women’s equivalent should be too. That brought into play a whole series of complex questions, which were important but certainly set the hares running among the people who were focused on listing events.

This is complicated further by virtue of a generational change. Young people increasingly access, and are comfortable accessing, all forms of media to watch the sporting events that they wish to see, sometimes in ways that do not necessarily follow the rules. The changing media landscape, certainly for young people, means that the listed event question may even become obsolete. I am not saying that it will but that is the sort of question that is now being posed as a result of the different patterns of media accessed particularly by young people, as opposed to our generation. I am being courteous to the noble Lord, Lord Watson, when I say that, because he looks a good deal younger than I am.

In that context, I would hesitate to push the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McNally, as valuable as they are, to further consideration in this Bill. However, it is important and probably timely that we now look at the whole question of listed events separately because they are vital to many sports. Equally, in the context of football, and without the wider issues that I have sought to bring to the Committee’s attention, we may be too focused on one sport and not considering the wider implications of what should and should not be listed in today’s media landscape.

Lord Goddard of Stockport Portrait Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan. The amendment is probably badly worded, but I am sure the inference is about the England football team rather than league clubs and football teams. I was lucky enough to watch England win the World Cup in 1966. I was 14, and it was on television. After that match, loads of people who did not particularly like football began to play football. Geoff Hurst, Martin Peters and Bobby Moore—I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Brady—show the power of that. Geoff Hurst still goes around inspiring people, even now in his later years in life. If you are speaking of putting people on committees, you could ask for no finer a person than Geoff Hurst.

If we are talking about free to air and it is a national team, that is where you will get more of an audience—to see England play live, rather than having to pay to watch it on any of the paid-for channels. The noble Lord is right: it sits with the golf, the cricket and all the other important sports. But football is our national sport, and our national football team should be live on air, especially major competitions.

Lord Hannan of Kingsclere Portrait Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, in introducing this amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Addington, used the phrase “hiding behind a paywall”. I wonder whether that is really a fair description of paying for something. When I got my phone, it was hiding behind a paywall: it was not given to me free; I had to shell out for it. I need a new car at the moment; my heap of junk of a Nissan has collapsed. The new one is hiding behind a paywall, and I have to pay for it. I had to pay for my dinner tonight; it was hiding behind a paywall.

There is an assumption here that there is no such thing as private property or free contract and that everything ought to be somehow at the disposition of regulators or of state officials. That is not how we got here. If you do not respect the fundamental ability of sporting clubs or indeed broadcasters to do what they think is in their best interests, you end up with suboptimal outcomes. This is a very neat demonstration of why, once you create these regulatory structures, they expand and expand—because people airily demand things and feel very virtuous in demanding them without any thought for the practicalities of the people who have to implement them.

Baroness Brady Portrait Baroness Brady (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I oppose Amendments 91 and 92 because they try to make the regulator a consultee on listed events and would place a duty on it to have regard to the desirability of making more domestic games free to air. I have huge respect for the noble Lords, Lord Addington and Lord Goddard, and their colleagues, and I know that these amendments relate to a manifesto commitment made by their party, but I hope it is helpful to talk a little about how football’s broadcast economy works in practice.

The Premier League’s domestic broadcasting rights are contracted through to 2029. Of course, they represent far more than a simple commercial arrangement: they form the foundation of English football’s entire economic model, and their thoughtful and innovative packaging is a hugely important part of the Premier League’s success. The substantial revenues they generate enable the Premier League to provide £1.6 billion of support to the wider pyramid, representing 16% of central revenues, of which—I think the noble Lord, Lord Watson, may like to know—£25 million goes to funding the PFA. That is why it keeps its joining fee at £20 and its subs at £150.

The sophistication and complexity of broadcasting arrangements is enormous and a huge source of competitive advantage for English football. Each broadcasting slot and each package of rights exists within an intricate ecosystem where values are fundamentally interdependent. These are not discrete assets that can be easily separated; they form a carefully balanced whole that has taken decades to develop to create value and appeal. Forcing certain matches to be free to air would not just affect those specific fixtures; it would fundamentally undermine the value proposition of every broadcasting package.

Premium broadcasters invest based on exclusive content that attracts subscribers. Remove that exclusivity—even partially—and decouple certain packages from each other and the entire model becomes unsustainable. The consequences that would cascade throughout football are significant. A significant reduction in broadcast values would not just affect Premier League clubs but immediately impact the entire pyramid through reduced solidarity payments, youth development funding and grass-roots investment. The damage to football’s economic ecosystem would be profound and potentially irreversible.

Of course, this sort of intervention would create exactly the kind of seismic instability the regulator is meant to prevent. In an attempt to increase access to certain matches, it would risk destabilising the very mechanism that funds football’s broader development and sustainability. The Premier League’s success in maintaining the growing broadcast revenues, which benefit the entire game, comes through very careful and innovative management of these arrangements. While I respect my noble friend’s motivations and good intentions here, I must strongly oppose the expansion of the scope of the IFR in the way proposed.

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Portrait Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, my Amendment 265 falls in this group. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton, who has tabled it with me. I know he shares my gratitude to the public service broadcasters with which we have discussed this matter.

Our amendment and the two in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McNally, to which the noble Lord, Lord Addington, spoke, all attempt to bring protections for the listed events regime into the scope of the Bill, or at least to give us the opportunity to have the debate that my noble friend Lord Moynihan rightly says is needed and perhaps even overdue. In saying that, I am very mindful that we were likely to have had that debate in the exchanges on the now Media Act earlier this year, had the general election not intervened and had the then Bill not gone through the abbreviated processes in wash-up. I think my noble friend is right and that the noble Lord, Lord McNally, would have agreed, had he been here, that these issues deserve some consideration.

The amendment that the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, and I have brought forward is intended to probe the Government about how they plan to protect digital on-demand rights for the listed events regime. While live television viewing of events is currently included in the regime, there is nothing to stop clipped videos of digital on-demand rights from going behind a paywall. My noble friend Lord Hannan of Kingsclere would certainly have enthusiastically taken part and would have made some very interesting points in the debate we could have had on the listed events regime. This is in the context of public service broadcasters that are broadcasting things that have been deemed particularly important for the public to see in a way that is different from the commercial suppliers, which can provide so many other things to people in the differing ways that they do.

23:00
Live rights to listed events will remain critical to meeting the compelling public interest in free and universal coverage of key national sporting moments, regardless of how that live coverage is delivered, but, as noble Lords have noted, how audiences consume sports is changing. For many people, particularly younger people, as my noble friend Lord Moynihan and the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie, said, on-demand viewing via digital platforms is increasingly the norm—even more so, of course, for events that take place at times which fall overnight in the UK, something this Committee stage is rapidly seeking to emulate.
In the first nine months of 2024, the BBC had over 275 million requests for on-demand clips and video packages across a number of sports. These trends will only accelerate with the men’s football World Cup in the United States of America, Mexico and Canada in 2026, where the time difference is obviously not in our favour. Audiences are also increasingly engaging with a range of digital content derived from listed events coverage, alongside live coverage of the events themselves, particularly younger audiences who might see those spoilers and clips through other media that they consume in real time or when they wake up.
The 2024 global sports survey has indeed revealed that a large percentage of younger football fans prefer to watch game highlights and short videos online, rather than watching games live on television. If we are thinking about the sustainability of football and being mindful of its future healthiness, then being able to cater to that next generation of fans—indeed, to make sure that we continue to inspire them and that they can derive the same benefits from the sport that previous generations have—is surely something worth considering.
Access to digital rights such as the ability to deploy on-demand highlights and clips of the key moments in listed events—perhaps goals or tries, as in the preferred sport of the noble Lord, Lord Addington—are crucial components of what public service broadcasters offer to audiences. Although such digital rights are often bundled with live rights at present, there is no certainty that this will continue as online platforms and social media companies seek to acquire them. Without regulatory protection, commercial providers could buy these rights for listed events on an exclusive basis and charge for them. That might not dismay my noble friend Lord Hannan in the way that it does other Members of the Committee, but it would clearly have an effect on the number of people able to share in these unifying national moments. Such a scenario would, I think the Committee would agree, undermine the entire purpose of the listed events regime.
The amendment that the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton, and I have brought forward is intended to deal with the current pitfalls with listed events by addressing deficiencies in how the Bill approaches the question of “relevant revenue” for the purposes of distributing that revenue. Ensuring that the concept of relevant revenue is fit for purpose in regard to the listed events regime is clearly a matter within scope of the Bill.
As currently drafted, “relevant revenue” is any revenue arising from
“the sale or acquisition of rights to exploit the broadcasting of football matches”.
The use of “broadcasting” here is increasingly antiquated and could lead, particularly as those changes accelerate, to ever narrower interpretation, including the revenue only from the sale of linear rights to broadcast matches in full. That could exclude significant extra revenue streams, to the detriment of clubs, so our amendment introduces concepts which we think are more up to date and reflect how rights to audiovisual football content are increasingly exploited.
As the noble Baroness knows, her predecessors in her department commissioned a review to examine the status of digital on-demand rights and their relation to the listed regime. I do not know whether she is able to give us an update on that work from her department this evening and when it might be completed, but I hope that she will see, particularly given the support of her noble friend Lord Bassam and me, that this is an issue which unites both sides of the Committee and is worth considering in the context of this Bill, even if we did not get the opportunity to do so during the passage of the Media Act. I look forward to her reply.
Baroness Twycross Portrait Baroness Twycross (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the noble Lords, Lord McNally and Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, for tabling these amendments, and the noble Lord, Lord Addington, for moving the amendment at the start of the debate on this group. Amendments 91 and 92 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McNally, raise an important issue that I welcome the opportunity to discuss.

The Government are keen to ensure that sporting events are made available to the public as widely as possible. That is why we have the listed events regime. From the start, there have been strong voices from a number of areas that the regulator must have a tightly defined remit and must not intervene in areas where it is more appropriate for the football authorities and other bodies to take the lead. I am sure the noble Lords will agree that the bar for statutory intervention in any market should be high, a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, although with different words. That is why we have ensured that the regulator’s remit is focused solely on tackling the specific market failures that carry a risk of significant harm to fans and communities but which we believe the industry cannot solve through self-regulation.

I sympathise with the noble Lord’s desire to see more matches free to air and understand the frustration of fans who do not always have access to watch their team. I have particular sympathy for the point made by my noble friend Lord Watson of Invergowrie about the access of young people to sport. However, we do not feel it is right to expand the regulator’s remit by including it as a body that must be consulted on which free-to-air football matches are broadcast and to have to take into account the desirability of promoting more football matches becoming listed events. This widened remit of considering broadcasting and commercial decisions would prove a distraction from the key responsibility of the regulator to ensure the financial sustainability of football clubs and would widen the scope of the Bill.

Turning to Amendment 265 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, I was slightly surprised that the Opposition were so keen to debate this amendment now given that it is contingent on Amendment 263, which we will come to later in Committee. Nevertheless, in the spirit of good will, I will respond.

As we face a changing media landscape, we must account for alternative forms of content and ensure the scope of the backstop is not restricted only to television broadcasting rights. This amendment intends to ensure that it is clear that a wide variety of content is in scope of the definition of “relevant revenue”. However, the existing drafting of the Bill has already been chosen carefully to ensure that we encapsulate alternative media sources. The current definition of “relevant revenue” already covers all sales or acquisitions of rights to exploit the broadcasting of football matches, which would apply to revenue produced by online content as well if that online content used footage from broadcast matches. Therefore, the concern underlying the amendment is suitably addressed by the current drafting of the Bill. For the reasons set out, I am unable to accept the noble Lords’ amendments, and I hope that they will not be pressed.

Lord Addington Portrait Lord Addington (LD)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, that was not the most positive response I have had to an amendment, but it was worth raising the idea of the listed events and certain things being culturally important. I will take away what the Minister has said and look at it, but it is about the principle that certain things are a little more important and reflect well on the actual product. It can be regarded as a little bit of advertising for those people who are taking some money.

If we cast across to other sports, I hope that people will bear in mind the experience of England Rugby. At one point, it was selling its home games, which meant that fans saw England only when they were away—that was the situation a number of years ago. There is a certain point beyond which you are cutting off people and interest, and possibly the expansion of the rest of your market. Yes, things hide behind paywalls if you have not got the money to pay for it or, as often happens in the modern broadcast world, you discover you bought the wrong bit. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, although I reserve my position about looking at it again.

Amendment 91 withdrawn.
Amendment 92 not moved.
Amendment 93
Moved by
93: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause—
“Requirements on Football Agents(1) The IFR must use its powers under this part to ensure that any person who is licenced by the Football Association to provide football agent services (“a football agent”) must—(a) always act in the best interests of their client Players, Coaches or Clubs and in accordance with their fiduciary duties;(b) abide by article 16 of the FIFA Football Agent Regulations relating to their conduct;(c) respect and adhere to the statutes, regulations, directives and decisions of the competent bodies of FIFA, the IFR and the Football Association;(d) avoid conflicts of interest while providing their Football Agent Services;(e) ensure that their name, FIFA licence number, FA registration number, signature, the name of their client Player, Coach or Club and any other information as may be required by The Association from time to time appear in any contracts resulting from the provision of their Football Agent Service.(2) Any football agent must, upon request, cooperate with the relevant body of the Football Association, or with the IFR, with respect to any type of information.(3) A football agent must submit to the Football Association and the IFR any agreement with a Player, Coach or Club other than a Representation Agreement, including but not limited to agreements relating to Other Services within 14 days of execution.(4) Within 14 days of payment of a fee related to any agreement entered into with a Player, Coach or Club other than a Representation Agreement, a football agent must submit confirmation of receipt and proof of receipt of such payment to the Football Association and the IFR.(5) For the purposes of this section, a person is a football agent if they provide football agents services.(6) For the purposes of subsections (1) and (5), “football agent services” means football-related services performed for or on behalf of a Client, including any negotiation, communication relating or preparatory to the same, or other related activity, with the purpose, objective or intention of concluding a Transaction.”
Lord Evans of Rainow Portrait Lord Evans of Rainow (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, my Amendment 93 would place new requirements on the independent football regulator with regard to football agents. There is nothing new about agents. They have a role to play in the football league, but they have a disproportionate influence now on players, clubs and the league.

Premier League clubs spent a combined £409 million on agents and intermediaries in the 12 months to February 2024, according to the Football Association report last week. Most of this money is leaving football. FIFA is trying to implement some clear and fair rules to the transfer system, including regulations on agents, for the sake of transparency, accountability and better redistribution across all levels of the game. FIFA president Gianni Infantino has said that more money should be going to

“the clubs that trained and developed the players signed”.

He called on Governments and lawmakers to join him and

“play an active role in ensuring the funds generated in transfers are kept within football and are shared with clubs from all around the world, as they are absolutely key for current and future generations of footballers”.

It appears to be a glaring omission, therefore, that we have this 125-page Bill to regulate football, yet agents are not mentioned once. This cannot be right. There exists a set of Football Association regulations that license agents, which are based on the FIFA Football Agent Regulations. These were approved by the FIFA council on 16 December 2022 and sought to provide a balanced legal instrument to protect the effective functioning and integrity of football transfer systems. The importance of this system cannot be overestimated. Without a properly functioning transfer market, clubs would not be able to obtain the world-class talent they so desperately require; players would not be able to climb the ladder and progress their career, which would instead stagnate; and fans would suffer, too, as they would not be able to enjoy the dynamism and excitement that transfer windows bring to the game or see new faces play in the team that they so love.

However, those FIFA regulations have faced legal challenges in the German courts. On 24 May 2023, the district court of Dortmund placed an injunction demanding that FIFA suspend a number of provisions of its football agent regulations for any transfer that was linked with the European Union. The FIFA circular that was sent to the relevant national associations, of which the FA was one, said that the ruling was

“inconsistent with … judicial decisions in other European countries”.

Consequently, large parts of the FA’s own regulations were suspended in December last year.

This amendment seeks to rectify the situation without creating regulatory overlap with the FA by codifying the regulations that had to be suspended. It therefore would not double up on the licensing rules that the FA and FIFA have already set out, but would instead complement those rules. Under this amendment, the regulator would have a duty to ensure that anyone who is licensed by the FA to carry out football agent services abides by Article 16 of the FIFA regulations. That article establishes the rights and obligations of agents. It ensures that agents act in good faith, comply with reporting requirements and uphold the values of the game. Unfortunately, the provision that required agents to comply with Article 16 was one of those that was suspended.

This amendment would also require agents to co-operate with the FA and the independent football regulator whenever those bodies should require, and to ensure that they operate with full transparency.

I believe it is only right that these rules should be reintroduced, so that is what my amendment seeks to achieve. I would be most grateful if the Minister could commit to reviewing the requirements placed on football agents and inform the Committee of what action the Government plan to take to ensure that agents are held to the same standards by this regulator as clubs and leagues will be.

23:15
Baroness Brady Portrait Baroness Brady (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I support this amendment, which seeks to address one of the most significant and unresolved issues in football governance: the regulation of football agents. The amendment is not just about imposing stricter rules on agents; it is about protecting the financial stability of English football and ensuring that the resources within the game are directed towards its growth and long-term health.

In the last five years, Premier League clubs alone have spent a staggering £1.65 billion on agents’ fees. This represents an extraordinary extraction of wealth from the game. It is money that could otherwise be invested in stadiums, academies, community projects, et cetera. The agent market is riddled with dysfunction. The incentive structures are fundamentally misaligned, with practices such as dual representation creating inflationary pressures on transfer market fees and wages. Without reform, the unchecked escalation of agent fees will continue to threaten the financial stability of clubs, and limit the growth and potential of the industry.

While the amendment addresses a critical issue, it also highlights a broader concern: the lack of meaningful engagement from the Government on how to support English football beyond the confines of the Bill. The Bill creates significant new regulatory obligations and risks for damage within football, particularly for Premier League clubs, without addressing the areas where government action could help the game thrive. Let me be clear: the amendment provides an opportunity to have that conversation. It forces us to ask why the Government have not engaged with clubs on how to help clubs grow and succeed while addressing the inefficiencies in football or the opportunities we have to grow with government assistance.

For example, on access to talent, since Brexit English clubs have faced significantly restricted access to international talent compared with competitor leagues. Reforming these laws could reduce player acquisition costs, improve competitiveness and enhance the financial health of the pyramid. On tax incentives for investment, football infrastructure is a national asset. Other countries, such as France and the US, recognise this through targeted tax incentives for stadium development and training facilities. Yet here in the UK we have no similar framework to support clubs to make these long-term investments. These are areas where constructive government engagement could make a real difference. Yet, instead of addressing these opportunities, the Bill focuses on imposing new obligations without offering the tools to support growth or mitigate the unintended consequences. Premier League clubs would really welcome engagement on these potential growth opportunities.

Turning back to agents, the lack of effective regulation has been an ongoing issue for decades. The Premier League has already attempted to address this through initiatives such as its 2017 review into intermediaries, which identified serious problems, including the lack of qualifications, excessive influence, and weak enforcement mechanisms. While clubs are willing to take bold unilateral steps, including banning dual representation, these measures were ultimately not implemented, because FIFA launched its own reform process. However, FIFA’s efforts have stalled due to the legal challenges my noble friend mentioned, and its proposed cap on agents’ fees has been deemed unlawful in the UK. Without primary legislation, meaningful reform remains out of reach.

The amendment is therefore timely. It provides a legislative framework to ensure that agents act in the best interest of their clients, comply with FIFA regulations and disclose key information about their activities. These measures would not only bring transparency but reduce the inflationary pressures caused by the current dysfunctional system. Whether the Bill is deemed the appropriate place for action or not, I hope the Government will engage with clubs and leagues on how to pursue much-needed reform in a way that safeguards competitiveness.

In this respect, this amendment also serves a broader purpose: it highlights the imbalance in how the Government are approaching the Bill. Clubs are being asked to shoulder significant new regulatory burdens, yet there is little or no discussion about how the Government could support them in other critical areas. Whether it is addressing the dysfunction in the agent market, widening access to talent or incentivising infrastructure investment, so much more could be done to help English football grow and succeed.

This amendment addresses a pressing issue that has gone unregulated for far too long. The influence of agents on the game and the resources extracted through their fees cannot be ignored. At the same time, this amendment is a reminder of the broader need for the Government to engage with football on how to support growth and sustainability, not just impose new obligations. I urge the Minister to take this opportunity to engage meaningfully with clubs and leagues, not just on the regulation of agents but on the wider opportunities I have mentioned, to ensure that English football remains the most dynamic and competitive league in the world.

Lord Moynihan Portrait Lord Moynihan (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I support both my noble friends who have spoken to this amendment.

We spoke earlier about the importance of taking into account the players—the noble Lord, Lord Watson, raised that. Agents push, not least to increase the opportunities for the players to earn money, and one of the biggest problems and the reason why we should engage with players—for example, with the Club World Cup coming up—is that further strain is placed on the elite players. Agents are directly involved in that market; they go right to the heart of the financial stability of the game.

The agent market is central to the infrastructure of professional football. If we are to have a regulator, it is inconceivable that it should not consider the impact of agents, which some see as heavily dysfunctional and others see as beneficial if regulated—FIFA has gone through huge challenges recently in terms of the overall regulation of that market.

The regulation is difficult enough, but it is impossible not to regulate football as is proposed under this legislation without the regulator taking into account the impact of agents on the financial stability of the clubs. That is the key point. To a great extent, the financial stability of clubs relies on the good working of the agent market.

I hope that when the Minister comes to respond, she will reflect on that and on the importance of this amendment, and that she will look to see whether advice, even, can be given to the regulator to ensure that this is fully taken into account, to ensure a smooth functioning of the professional football market and, above all, the financial stability of the clubs.

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Portrait Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Evans of Rainow for tabling his Amendment 93 and giving us the opportunity to discuss the duties of, requirements for and obligations on football agents. As my noble friend established, there is no mention of agents anywhere in the Bill—it is another group, as with the useful debate we had earlier on professional players, where the Bill is perhaps more silent than it ought to be. I will not put my noble friend on the spot and ask him, as I did on that group, whether there ever have been professional football agents in your Lordships’ House—I suppose that may be a bit more likely than professional footballers. It seems I have exhausted his parliamentary, historical and sporting knowledge in this instance.

This has been a helpful area of consideration for us. As my noble friend Lady Brady set out very clearly, football agents are one of the areas that absolutely require greater consideration when we consider the regulation of English football. Attempts to bring them under the scope of FIFA and of the Football Association’s regulatory frameworks have been somewhat successful but have not been fully implemented, for the reasons my noble friend mentioned.

The role of a football agent is one of significant influence. Agents negotiate contracts, secure endorsements and guide careers. In many cases they hold the futures of young and often vulnerable players in their hands. It is therefore imperative that agents act in the best interests of their clients. My noble friend Lord Evans of Rainow’s amendment enshrines that important principle, requiring agents to abide by fiduciary duties and to avoid conflicts of interest. Such measures are not only common sense but consistent with the values of fairness and accountability that underpin so much else of the Bill.

Article 16 of FIFA’s Football Agent Regulations already sets out high standards for agents’ conduct, but adherence to these standards has been inconsistent. By incorporating them in our domestic legislation in the way that my noble friend’s amendment suggests and through the powers of the new independent football regulator, we would send a strong message that, in this country, we expect the highest standards and are prepared to enforce them.

My noble friend’s amendment also addresses transparency—another important issue. Requiring agents to disclose agreements and payments would ensure that all interested parties, including clubs and governing bodies, can scrutinise transactions. This is particularly important when vast sums of money are at stake and public confidence is on the line. Greater transparency is not just good for governance; it is essential to maintaining the very credibility of the sport.

This amendment would involve additional burdens on agents—my noble friends Lord Evans and Lady Brady were quite candid in saying that in their speeches—but we must remember that these are people who operate in an industry where the stakes are extremely high. Professional football is a multi-billion-pound sector with far-reaching economic and social implications. It is not unreasonable to expect those operating in it to meet rigorous professional standards; of course, that is what the Bill seeks to do for clubs and other parties in the sector. If the Government are willing to take the steps that they are taking to regulate clubs and competition organisers, why would they not be willing to do so with agents? I ask that neutrally because it is a worthwhile area for us to probe.

Moreover, this amendment would uphold individual responsibility by demanding ethical conduct from agents. It would reinforce accountability by ensuring that the regulator can scrutinise agents’ practices effectively and would protect the integrity of the market, creating a level playing field for clubs and players. This amendment is about protecting the players, many of whom are young people stepping into a world of vast financial opportunity but also, of course, of significant risk. By holding agents to these high standards, we would ensure that players are not exploited or misled, enabling them to focus on their careers, fulfil their potential and delight fans of football for many years to come.

I share the anxiety that my noble friends set out in terms of the behaviours that we have seen in this area. There have long been allegations of financial misconduct or bungs by agents acting in English football. An agent and senior club manager exposed by the Daily Telegraph investigation in 2016 were later suspended by the FA, having been charged with bribery—a very serious offence—so the independent football regulator must do all that is possible to avoid the corruption of the beautiful game and serious crimes such as this.

There is also the matter of fraudulent transfers, such of that of Ali Dia. In November 1996, Dia’s agent famously convinced Graeme Souness, then the Southampton manager, that he was the cousin of the FIFA World Player of the Year and Ballon d’Or winner, George Weah, which led to Dia signing a one-month contract with Southampton just a few days later. Dia played only one match in his short spell at the club: he came on as a substitute in a league game but was then himself substituted. He was subsequently released just 14 days into his contract. Dia’s teammate for that one game, Matt Le Tissier, is quoted as saying:

“He ran around the pitch like Bambi on ice; it was very embarrassing to watch”.


These are the sorts of scenarios that we want to avoid—scenarios through which clubs are defrauded and players are exploited. This is a sensible amendment to help ensure the integrity of football, which is very much in keeping with the spirit of the Bill and many of the measures that are already in it. I hope that the Minister looks favourably upon it and gives it the consideration it deserves.

23:30
Baroness Twycross Portrait Baroness Twycross (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Rainow, for his amendment, which was an interesting contribution to this Committee. The noble Baroness, Lady Brady, eloquently outlined the costs to the game. The actions of some football agents are clearly a concern, with both the Government and FIFA publicly recognising it as a serious issue. The noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, gave a number of specific examples.

FIFA has recognised the need for the better international regulation of agents and proposed reforms on this to its member associations. The Government agree with the fan-led review that a global, game-wide solution, led by the industry, is preferable to statutory regulation of agents through the independent football regulator. Trying to address this issue unilaterally could simply push global talent to other markets, so a multilateral solution is preferable. If there is reform, the Government will work with the FA to ensure that any future regulation is fit for purpose. For these reasons, I hope the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

Lord Evans of Rainow Portrait Lord Evans of Rainow (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am most grateful to the Minister for her response. I am somewhat disappointed by talk of a unilateral approach, given that FIFA is calling for other countries and authorities to work with it, but perhaps we can revisit this at a later date. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 93 withdrawn.
Schedule 3 agreed.
Clause 10: State of the game report
Amendment 94
Moved by
94: Clause 10, page 6, line 35, after “football” insert “, including factors related to the community and social impact of regulated clubs”
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment requires the State of the Game report to include, in its overview of issues affecting English football, factors related to the community and social impact of regulated clubs.
Baroness Taylor of Bolton Portrait Baroness Taylor of Bolton (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, there are quite a lot of amendments in this group, so I should say at the outset that I am trying to get assurances from the Minister on two specific points. They relate to the “state of the game” report, on which I know a lot of work has already been done.

The first assurance is that the report will be as comprehensive as possible. My colleagues and I have listed a number of items that should be included. Some are issues that we have already discussed. Some are very significant, such as community, social impact, how well managed clubs are, an assessment of the distribution arrangements, issues around women’s football, multi-club ownership, player welfare, equalities and social inclusion. All those things should be encompassed by the “state of the game” report, and, without going into any one of them at this stage, I hope we can agree that this report should be as comprehensive as possible. It is important that the regulator has independent and substantial information on which to make judgments. That is the first point that I raise with the Minister and on which I seek her assurances.

My second point concerns the timing of the report. As I said, I know that a lot of work has gone on to prepare for the report. The Bill suggests that it should be out as soon as possible, but gives an 18-month deadline. One amendment in this group seeks to reduce that to 12 months. Given the amount of attention on the Bill, that it has been in the pipeline for so long and that people are aware of these issues, a 12-month timescale should be appropriate. I hope the Minister agrees that the report should be published as soon as possible.

There is also the question of how often we should have this report. The Bill suggests five years and my amendment suggests three. It suggests that the report should be presented to Parliament. This is not a controversial area, but some reassurances would be beneficial, so that everybody is clear where we are going forward.

Lord Addington Portrait Lord Addington (LD)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the “state of the game” report is one of those things that has been almost universally welcomed. It will look at this very big and complex industry, with a very successful top and struggling foundations—that is how the industry appears to many people.

My name appears on this amendment alongside that of the noble Baroness because of things such as social impact. We are doing this because it is reckoned to be an important subject that matters a lot to people, and we keep being told that it is a big business—the biggest invisible earner going. If we get a report that is too narrow, we will not be looking at this huge social impact and what goes on.

Many of the things that we are talking about here are out of scope of the main operation of the Bill, but they should be looked at somewhere. The women’s game is one that comes to mind, along with players, which these amendments propose would feature here. If we are not going to look at such things in the Bill, we should look at them in the “state of the game” report.

It is a huge subject that we are talking about here; we have taken on something that is quite brave. If we do not find out how it is functioning and what is going on, we will be missing a trick. I would hope that we would do this as soon as we can—having slightly more frequent reports, at least at the beginning, would not be a bad idea. The “state of the game” report is a huge opportunity for gathering a great deal of very useful information.

Lord Moynihan Portrait Lord Moynihan (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I support many of the points that the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, has raised under Amendment 94. I see that the Chief Whip is in his place; he will be pleased to note that nine of the amendments that we are considering now came from the Labour Benches, and that we have reached page 6 of the Bill.

The noble Baroness made the important point that Parliament should receive and debate the “state of the game” report. I am perfectly happy for the regulator, if we are going to have one, to present the report. However, in presenting the report, full attention needs to be paid to factors relating to the community and social impacts of regulated clubs and the women’s game. It is impossible when looking at this overall—and the Bill says that:

“A state of the game report must include … an overview of the main issues that the IFR considers to be affecting English football”,


—not to consider the development in the women’s game. It is a central part of English football, as cited in the Bill.

There is one other area at which we need to look at a later stage, on which I have no intention of detaining the Committee this evening. The regulator is looking at English football clubs and the game in England, but 14 Premier League clubs are in multi-club ownership, which stretches far beyond our shores. That is much more than in any other league in Europe. That has significant impacts on the financial regulation of the game. It provides greater bargaining power in commercial contracts and increases significantly the brand reach of those clubs, while allowing for the pooling of resources. There is flexibility with player transfers and loans. Certainly, within the English game, there is prohibition control over the management of more than one club, and UEFA states that you cannot have one controller covering two or more clubs in the same European competition. All these are actually central financial issues, and they have to be considered in any assessment of the health of the game in England.

I am concerned—I hope the Minister can respond and help me with this—that, if the regulator is prohibited from looking at the impact of multi-club ownership, there is a huge amount of important material when it comes to understanding the financial health of the game in England that would be outside the remit of the regulator. If I am wrong on that, no doubt the Minister will say that the regulator is absolutely entitled to look at each and every aspect of the multi-club ownership that takes place, principally in the Premier League. I will not detain the Committee by going further, but I simply table the fact that I think it is an essential and central point in any state of the game report and of the work of the regulator moving forward, and I would appreciate any clarity that the Minister can throw on that this evening.

Baroness Brady Portrait Baroness Brady (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 101 in my name. It seeks to address a fundamental imbalance in how we will assess the health of English football under this new regulatory framework. The Premier League has become the world’s most successful sporting competition through a sophisticated balance of sporting merit and commercial innovation. Every weekend, millions watch matches where any team can beat any other, where promoted clubs can dream of European football and where calculated ambition is rewarded. This competitive drama has created extraordinary value that benefits the entire football pyramid, yet this Bill creates a concerning issue in how we will measure success. While the regulator must produce a state of the game report, its content focuses almost entirely on identifying problems and assessing risks. There is no requirement to evaluate how a regulatory intervention might affect the very qualities that have made English football successful.

This amendment would require the regulator to assess and report on three areas: first, competitive balance and sporting merit, the foundation of football’s appeal; secondly, our international position, crucial given the growing competition from other leagues and competitions around the world; and, thirdly, our ability to attract investment, which is essential for maintaining the quality that drives broadcast value and pyramid funding.

Without proper assessment of the competitive matrix, how would we know whether regulation was inadvertently creating barriers to sporting achievement? Without tracking our international position, how could we identify whether intervention was damaging our ability to attract global talent? Without measuring investment impact, how would we spot whether regulation was deterring the responsible ambition that drives football growth? If the state of the game report is to be as Ministers have described it—the definitive evidence base of football’s health that will drive the regulator’s whole agenda—it is crucial that the report considers both the risks and the success factors. We cannot protect what we do not measure. We must not allow these protective regulatory principles to become completely meaningless.

The amendment would create crucial feedback loops. It would allow Parliament and stakeholders to identify early-warning signs if regulation begins to damage football’s essential qualities. It would provide evidence to enable the regulator to adjust its regulatory approach if unintended consequences emerge. Most importantly, it would ensure that we protect proper oversight while preserving what makes English football so special. Without this amendment, we risk creating a regulator focused solely on managing decline rather than protecting success.

I would be grateful therefore if the Minister could explain why, in her view, the state of the game report should not assess regulatory impact. Will she also explain how Parliament will otherwise be in a position to judge whether this world-first and intrinsically risky regulatory approach is going to be able to maintain English football’s success, growth and vitality?

23:45
Lord Markham Portrait Lord Markham (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I rise to speak to my Amendment 104, but I start by saying that I agree with the thrust set out by the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, that we want this to be a comprehensive report. We all agree that we need a common factual basis on which to try to agree onward action. As such, I agree that this needs to be the first thing that the regulator does. With that, I am sympathetic towards the quicker timeframe. Obviously, I am mindful that we need to give it a certain amount of time so that it can do the report properly; six months is probably unrealistic as a quick proposal but 12 months should be enough time. Beyond that, given how quickly things move, every three years is a reasonable frequency.

Before I come on to Amendment 104, I admit that I am a bit concerned by Amendment 95, which asks the regulator to report with its assessment of how well each club is managed. It is one thing working with each club and looking at its plans; having to report on that is almost like a different level of burden of proof when it comes to the evidence needed. I am sure the regulator will be nervous about putting this down in black and white without having a strong evidential base. When you are trying to do that across 116 clubs, it creates a duty that is probably burdensome on the whole industry. It would result in a whole host of Deloittes, KPMGs and PwCs of the world going into every club, all 116 of them, to try and find assess how well they are run.

I turn to my Amendment 104. Key to this is football financial health. We all agree that it is critical to everything that we have been talking about—to sustainability and to the whole pyramid payment system and how much money is going at the top end. Every time I have proposed something, I have thought it was not controversial, and have said so many times over the last few days. I have then been—“upset” is too strong a word—mildly disappointed that it was not taken up by the Minister. I hope that asking the regulator to write in the “state of the game” report a section on football financial health is a no-brainer. Even though we are getting towards extra time, and into stoppage time, I hope we can have one thing chalked up that the Minister is happy to take away and agree to tonight.

Similarly, on the state of fan engagement, one thing that united the whole Chamber earlier was when we were talking about how fans should be consulted in all this. I hope that including a section on fan engagement in the “state of the game” report would be considered as close to a no-brainer as you would hope to get.

Lastly, proposed new paragraph (f) looks at the operation of the current regulators and an assessment of how well the independent regulator performs. That comes on to a clause later with the subsidiarity principle, and we are asking the independent regulator to, for want of a better term, contract out different functions where a current regulator—the FA, the Premier League or whatever—is better placed to do that. That is the general principle that we hope to get established. However, for it to be able to do that, the football regulator in the “state of the game” report first needs to report on the functions of the current regulators and how well they fulfil them.

Again, late into stoppage time, I hope these will be seen as quite sensible and uncontroversial measures. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s views on them later.

Lord Moynihan of Chelsea Portrait Lord Moynihan of Chelsea (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, we are, I hope, on the home straight, to take a metaphor from another sport. I rise to support an amendment in this group, to say nothing about some others, and to oppose some others.

I take my thoughts from a reflection on Hong Kong and its enormous success as an economic entity for many decades before, lamentably, we had to lose it to the Chinese—with the current appalling situation that we now see in Hong Kong. Why was Hong Kong so successful? It is generally acknowledged that Sir John Cowperthwaite took an attitude of benign neglect to its success. He arrived in Hong Kong, he was urged to govern, and he said, “No, I’m going to step back because it’s doing very well without my interference”. He assiduously prevented reports being written about Hong Kong.

I am very much in support of the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lady Brady because it seeks to limit the report, and I say nothing about the various timing amendments, which I do not feel qualified to discuss, but I did say at Second Reading that this Bill was a Christmas tree and, unfortunately, people like to hang baubles on Christmas trees: “Let’s look at women’s football”; “Let’s look at the environment”; “Let’s look at so many things”—it is irresistible when you have a Christmas tree. What is wrong with having a report on these interesting, important things? We go back to Cowperthwaite: if you have a report, people feel urged to do something about it. If you say, “My report says that there’s something wrong here, or that more could be done there”, then that moves on to the impetus to interfere more and more.

There are two attitudes in this House to what is going on in football in this country. There is the attitude that we know best and that we say what is fair—fairness seems to be the prime objective among many speakers. There are others who are saying, “Why are you wanting to interfere with what is working so well?” I applaud the noble Lord, Lord Addington, for defying the injunction not to repeat ourselves, since he repeated himself earlier this evening in claiming that there was this catastrophic situation in the lower orders of football. I do not see it. Football is thriving. Others said the same when the point was made before—but good on him for defying this attempt to suppress deeply held thoughts, even if spoke twice.

No actions have no consequences. Attempts in these amendments to put more and more into this Bill will be detrimental to the great sport of soccer in this country.

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Portrait Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I will briefly say a few words about my Amendments 106, 108 and 109. Given the hour, I will not speak at length. As with the other amendments in this group, these concern the “state of the game” report. I am grateful to all those who brought amendments in this group and who have contributed to it.

My Amendment 106 is attempting to address a very similar point as does Amendment 105, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton. Both amendments are attempting to reduce the period in which the regulator will have to publish the first “state of the game” report. As the noble Baroness noted, my amendment changes this from 18 months to six months, whereas theirs looks to change it to 12 months, but the reasoning behind both is the same. The sooner we understand the state of the game under this new framework, the better we can refine and improve the regulator’s role. I think that the sooner that happens the better, but I am not precious about the precise time.

Amendment 108 in my name requires the “state of the game” report to be published every four years to allow for a full and proper reappraisal of the issues facing football. The original draft of the Bill, when it was introduced by the previous Conversative Government, set the period for republishing the report at three years, and the current version sets it at five. With this amendment, I am trying to probe the Government as to why they have made the change that they have in this instance, and I would be grateful if the Minister could say.

With Amendment 109, again, I am trying to probe the Government’s intent. The Bill includes numerous references to consultations with fans, but it does not include any reference to engagement with fans on the draft “state of the game” report. I am curious as to the reasoning behind the drafting. If the Government believe that fans should be consulted elsewhere in the Bill, why not in this instance and with this provision?

I will not speak at length to the other amendments in this group that the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, have tabled, but I am grateful to them for their thoughts in doing so.

I will touch on Amendment 103, because I am conscious that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, is not here to mention it. Her amendment deals with the question of environmental sustainability. That falls very much into the category of the baubles on the Christmas tree that my noble friend Lord Moynihan of Chelsea would be very sceptical of. While football has a role to play in tackling climate change, the regulator must ensure that its focus remains on football governance. In the noble Baroness’s absence, I wanted to make sure that her amendment was noted, and if the Minister has anything to say on it, I am sure that she will be grateful to read it back.

Amendment 104, in the name of my noble friend Lord Markham, and to which I have added my name, attempts to expand the scope of the “state of the game” report. This requires the regulator to include an assessment of the overall financial health of football, an assessment of the current state of fan engagement and an overview of the current regulatory functions that are carried out by existing football bodies. We think that these additions are crucial. Financial health is the bedrock of football’s future, and fan engagement is its very soul. We must also respect and leverage the expertise of existing bodies, such as the FA, in ensuring that the regulator complements, rather than duplicates, their efforts.

The amendments tabled in this group reflect the wide-ranging interests and challenges facing English football. On these Benches, our priority is to ensure that the Bill creates a framework for governance that is robust, focused and effective. We must protect the integrity of the game, empower clubs to succeed and respect the fans who are its beating heart. I hope the Minister will seek to do that too in her response.

Baroness Twycross Portrait Baroness Twycross (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my noble friends Lord Bassam of Brighton and Lady Taylor of Bolton and the noble Lords, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, Lord Markham and Lord Addington, and the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, for tabling these amendments and for the discussion of them. I will take them in turn.

I turn first to Amendment 94 in the name of my noble friend Lady Taylor of Bolton. While I understand the intent behind this amendment, we do not consider it necessary and believe the Bill already covers this issue, and I hope that this reassures her. The positive social impact of regulated clubs in their communities features in the very definition of the sustainability of English football in Clause 1, so we fully expect that the regulator will naturally cover these areas in the “state of the game” report.

I turn to another of my noble friend Lady Taylor’s amendments in this grouping, Amendment 100. While the areas that my noble friend highlights, such as environmental sustainability and ethics, are important, they are not within the remit of the regulator and therefore will not be in scope of the “state of the game” report. In so far as the other areas are relevant to the regulator’s functions under the Bill, it already has the power to report on, for instance, a club’s general financial sustainability.

On Amendment 95 in the name of my noble friend Lord Bassam of Brighton, Amendment 96 in the name of my noble friend Lady Taylor and Amendment 104 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Markham, while I understand the aims and intent behind these amendments, the Government do not consider them necessary and believe that the Bill already adequately covers these issues. As part of the “state of the game” report, the regulator will cover matters relevant to the regulator’s functions. This includes how clubs in scope operate and the licensing regime more generally, as well as the context of the regulator. The regulator could potentially also cover any distribution agreement currently in place between competition organisers.
On the broad principle of these amendments, we do not believe that listing every topic that the “state of the game” report may cover is acceptable or necessary in the Bill. The Government do not want to unintentionally limit the report from covering any aspect that the regulator feels is relevant, which is always the risk with a prescriptive list, whether exhaustive or not.
On Amendment 97 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Addington, and Amendment 102 in the name of my noble friend Lord Bassam of Brighton, I acknowledge and share the excitement of the recent growth of women’s football—this is something that noble Lords will be clear that I also feel passionately about—and I recognise the need to monitor whether it too needs the protections that we are introducing for the men’s game. However, the Government do not believe that a regular review of women’s football automatically carried out by the regulator is the best way to achieve that.
The Explanatory Notes to Clause 2 set out that the Secretary of State will already keep under review, on an ongoing basis, whether it is appropriate to amend the specified competitions. This assessment can be triggered at any point so, if any change in circumstance occurs, the Secretary of State will be able to react. Before any such amendment, the Secretary of State would also conduct and publish a formal assessment and lay it before Parliament. It is more appropriate for the Secretary of State to review, assess and determine whether statutory regulation should be extended to a new market, rather than for this to be the responsibility of the regulator.
I thank my noble friend Lady Taylor for tabling Amendment 98. I understand the importance of the issue raised, but we do not feel that this is a necessary change to the Bill.
The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, asked about multi-club ownership. If the regulator deems that multi-club ownership models are relevant to its functions and objectives, it can and will include this in the report. However, we do not want to force the regulator into reviewing one specific ownership model over another, as it will need to take an objective and evidence-based assessment of any issues relevant to its remit of financial sustainability.
On Amendment 99 in the name of my noble friend Lord Bassam of Brighton, while we understand the importance of player welfare, especially given the number of games being played these days, this is not an area that the regulator should be involved in. Football already has the ability to address these issues and we do not believe that they warrant regulatory intervention.
On Amendment 101 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, assessment of the regulator’s success in carrying out its duties and objectives will be key to ensuring transparency and accountability. To the extent that the “state of the game” report looks into the market, it is implicit that it will consider its own impacts on the market. How can it assess the sustainability of the game without considering the underlying regulatory regime that determines how sustainable clubs are?
However, performance reporting will be done through accountability measures throughout the Bill, such as the annual report that is laid before Parliament. The regulator must provide a summary of the activities undertaken during that year, and we expect that that would include an assessment of whether the regulator is meeting its duties and objectives. The Secretary of State may also direct the regulator to include specific things in its annual report.
Amendments 105, 106, 107 and 108 in the names of my noble friends Lord Bassam of Brighton and Lady Taylor of Bolton, and the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, all seek to shorten the timeframe within which the first and subsequent “state of the game” reports must be published. We believe that the timings for the “state of the game” report are suitable for the regulator’s objectives. The “state of the game” report will allow the regulator to better understand the finances and economics of the industry and its individual clubs. This is a first of its kind and a significant undertaking.
The 18-month deadline for the first report will ensure that the regulator is able to undertake the in-depth analysis needed for this assessment. The deadline has been reduced from three years in the previous iteration of the Bill under the previous Government, but I stress that it also says
“as soon as reasonably practicable”.
It also allows for the regulator to consult as appropriate with the industry and properly take views and suggestions into account, ahead of publishing the report. To squeeze this timeframe could jeopardise the depth and quality of the first “state of the game” report and its effectiveness in providing a solid benchmark for the regulator and for the market.
The noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, asked about the subsequent publication timeline. We do not believe there is merit in shortening the deadline for any of the regulator’s subsequent “state of the game” reports. The regulator can already publish subsequent reports sooner than the five-year timeline if it considers it appropriate to do so. This could be a potential burden on industry, so we think that this timeframe allows for the market to change, balanced against possible costs.
I finish with Amendment 109 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson. Making sure fans are put back at the centre of their clubs is a key priority of this legislation, so I understand and am sympathetic to the aims of this amendment. However, the Government do not consider this amendment necessary. As part of the “state of the game” report, the regulator will be able to consult other persons as it is deemed appropriate. This could, and I assume, at times, will, include fans. However, it would be overly burdensome to require the regulator to consult all fans on all aspects of the report each time. So we believe that it is appropriate for this to remain at the discretion of the regulator. The regulator is also already required to invite suggestions before drafting its report. This would be an open invitation and so fans would be able to submit suggestions, and I would encourage them to do so.
For the reasons I have set out, I hope noble Lords and my noble friends will not press their amendments.
Baroness Taylor of Bolton Portrait Baroness Taylor of Bolton (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am very pleased there is such agreement about the importance of the “state of the game” report. The Minister has given some elements of reassurance, but on others I wish she could have gone a little further.

Because of the late time, we have not discussed in depth all the elements we were talking about. The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, mentioned multi-club ownership, which I think we will come unto at a later stage.

The one point I cannot agree with that has been said is that football has benefited from benign neglect. Benign neglect of good governance in football is the reason we are here today.

But there has been progress here. I am glad everybody accepts that this report will be important. On that basis, at this stage, I withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 94 withdrawn.
Amendments 95 to 109 not moved.
Clause 10 agreed.
House resumed.
House adjourned at 12.09 am.