Football Governance Bill [HL]

Lord Goddard of Stockport Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 9th December 2024 Lords Chamber

All the other principal, individual protagonists in this drama are defined—from owners to officers to senior managers. Groups or collectives are also defined, such as clubs, teams and competition organisers, to name just a few. Even football itself has its own definition, and esoteric matters such as heritage are defined, but fans do not get a look-in. That is somewhat strange, given that the central purpose of the Bill is to represent fans’ interests. Why are fans not defined? My question to the Minister is: why is the key protagonist in all this, the fan, not defined in the Bill?

[Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)]

Can I help the noble Lord? The debate on defining sustainability was about three hours on the first day and, on fans, about two and a half hours on the second day. I think we have done both of those subjects to death, for hours and hours.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

We did not get to a conclusion.

[Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)]

We may not have got to a conclusion, but what about repetition? Here we go again. We have had the discussion; the Minister gave us her answer; we move on. But we have not moved on because, two days later, it is brought up again—and again and again.

This is the frustration that some people are having. I understand the need to examine and tease out but, if we do not like the teasing out, we cannot keep going back every day to keep teasing out. We will never finish; that is the problem with it. We have had an enormous debate on sustainability and on fans.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

I rise to make one point of clarification. I support the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Watson, and would be very pleased if the Minister indicated her support for it, because I have been having discussions about whether we should table further amendments on players in other parts of the Bill—but I will wait on the interest.

The noble Baroness, Lady Brady, referred to players and touched on the question of staff. It is not only players who should be included; there should also be references to staff because, after all is said and done, any football club employs not only players but large numbers of staff. Both players and staff should be covered by any amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Moynihan (Con)]

My Lords, I say simply that, while some very good arguments have been put forward, we have to be very careful here. The whole question of listed events that the noble Lord, Lord Addington, and I have been engaged on for many decades, let alone a year, is a complicated and difficult issue.

Currently, the Secretary of State has to opine as to whether listing an event meets the criterion of having “special national resonance”. That, in its own right, is a difficult thing for the Secretary of State to opine on. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, will recall that, only five years ago, the then Secretary of State made a famous speech on listed events where she put forward the idea that whenever a men’s event was listed, the women’s equivalent should be too. That brought into play a whole series of complex questions, which were important but certainly set the hares running among the people who were focused on listing events.

This is complicated further by virtue of a generational change. Young people increasingly access, and are comfortable accessing, all forms of media to watch the sporting events that they wish to see, sometimes in ways that do not necessarily follow the rules. The changing media landscape, certainly for young people, means that the listed event question may even become obsolete. I am not saying that it will but that is the sort of question that is now being posed as a result of the different patterns of media accessed particularly by young people, as opposed to our generation. I am being courteous to the noble Lord, Lord Watson, when I say that, because he looks a good deal younger than I am.

In that context, I would hesitate to push the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McNally, as valuable as they are, to further consideration in this Bill. However, it is important and probably timely that we now look at the whole question of listed events separately because they are vital to many sports. Equally, in the context of football, and without the wider issues that I have sought to bring to the Committee’s attention, we may be too focused on one sport and not considering the wider implications of what should and should not be listed in today’s media landscape.

[Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan. The amendment is probably badly worded, but I am sure the inference is about the England football team rather than league clubs and football teams. I was lucky enough to watch England win the World Cup in 1966. I was 14, and it was on television. After that match, loads of people who did not particularly like football began to play football. Geoff Hurst, Martin Peters and Bobby Moore—I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Brady—show the power of that. Geoff Hurst still goes around inspiring people, even now in his later years in life. If you are speaking of putting people on committees, you could ask for no finer a person than Geoff Hurst.

If we are talking about free to air and it is a national team, that is where you will get more of an audience—to see England play live, rather than having to pay to watch it on any of the paid-for channels. The noble Lord is right: it sits with the golf, the cricket and all the other important sports. But football is our national sport, and our national football team should be live on air, especially major competitions.

[Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)]

My Lords, in introducing this amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Addington, used the phrase “hiding behind a paywall”. I wonder whether that is really a fair description of paying for something. When I got my phone, it was hiding behind a paywall: it was not given to me free; I had to shell out for it. I need a new car at the moment; my heap of junk of a Nissan has collapsed. The new one is hiding behind a paywall, and I have to pay for it. I had to pay for my dinner tonight; it was hiding behind a paywall.

There is an assumption here that there is no such thing as private property or free contract and that everything ought to be somehow at the disposition of regulators or of state officials. That is not how we got here. If you do not respect the fundamental ability of sporting clubs or indeed broadcasters to do what they think is in their best interests, you end up with suboptimal outcomes. This is a very neat demonstration of why, once you create these regulatory structures, they expand and expand—because people airily demand things and feel very virtuous in demanding them without any thought for the practicalities of the people who have to implement them.