Football Governance Bill [HL]

Lord Hayward Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 9th December 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Hayward]

51: Clause 6, page 5, line 9, leave out “protect and promote” and insert “monitor and where necessary intervene to safeguard”

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

My Lords, Amendment 51 stands in the name of my noble friend Lord Maude of Horsham. He has asked me to move it because he is, unfortunately, unavailable on this occasion. Perhaps I might observe that, out of the 300-plus amendments, some 120-plus of them come from the Government’s own Back Benches.

This amendment deals with an area which I have touched on on a number of occasions during debate on the Bill’s clauses and subsections: the financial impact that it will have on the different leagues. They are not named in the Bill, but we all know which ones we are talking about.

I am particularly interested to be talking to Amendment 51 on the basis of the Prime Minister’s own Damascene conversion—if I can refer to Syria as being the place in the public eye at the moment—to avoiding, where possible, impositions on the private sector by regulation. He commented on that in his speech last Thursday. It would appear that he is now of the view that regulation should be kept to a minimum, or that the Civil Service—I specifically exclude the civil servants advising the Minister, who have been very helpful throughout—is providing a “tepid bath” of steady decline. I think those were the Prime Minister’s words. Other Ministers have then been sent out to clarify on the matter, one of whom today described it as an attempt to take the approach of a start-up. Well, my noble friend Lord Markham has identified how to aim to start up and the funding needed when one actually takes that approach, which may not be conducive to the overall approach outlined in the Bill for football regulation.

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[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

My understanding is that the amendment would prevent money going from club to club. The model is around distribution between leagues or competitions, as the noble Lord suggests. There is already a situation in which the Premier League recognises that some financial redistribution is needed. I refer the noble Lord to previous discussions about why the regulator and financial redistribution of some type are required within the football pyramid.

Amendments 126 and 130 relate to the regulator being able to state in its rules any further information that is required to accompany the application for a provisional licence or the strategic business plan. The regulator will be independent, and it will be the expert. We need to give it the flexibility to implement its regime as it considers appropriate. This includes being able to request additional information in a club’s application if necessary to satisfy itself that the club will meet the test for a provisional operating licence. This will be set out up front in the rules, so clubs will always know in advance what is required of them when submitting an application or a strategic business plan. For the reasons I have set out, I am unable to accept the noble Lords’ amendments, and I hope they will not press them.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

My Lords, I find the Minister’s answer interesting, but I will start by making a comment in relation to my noble friend—I do address him as my noble friend—Lord Addington’s remarks regarding regulation. The concerns we have on these Benches are in relation not to regulation per se but to regulatory creep and regulatory definition. The first few clauses in the Bill in one form or another either cover inadequately or do not cover the question of regulation.

My first amendments related to sustainability and the breadth of that comment. The Minister has just made her observations in relation to “targeted”, “prioritised” and “proportionate”. We are trying to establish precisely what the regulator can operate to, more clearly than we have in the Bill as it stands. It is not clear, and the net result is, as we know and as has been observed by any number of Members across this House, that we watch regulators use regulatory creep one after another after another.

The Minister used the words “proportionate” and “targeted”. Is the regulator going to have exactly the same interpretation of “proportionate” or “targeted” as the Minister? No. By definition there are no minds alike, and therefore they will be different. In this set of amendments we are trying to find out precisely how the regulator should operate. Without that clarity, the Bill gives the regulator what I regard, and I think many people on this side of the Committee particularly regard, as undue breadth of self-interpretation. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, referred to the Premier League and the payments that are made. I agree with parts of the comments that he made, but we have here a unique operation whereby the Premier League makes payments to other clubs in other divisions and to those facing threats of relegation so that the whole system does not fail.

The noble Lord, Lord Goddard, identified the banking crisis. Under those circumstances, Governments worldwide intervened in all sorts of ways in all sorts of businesses. That is not comparable with trying to regulate a sport, and a highly successful sport as it is. What is significant and interesting is that although the Premier League passes money downwards, the Championship does not. It receives money and could easily pass money down, but fails to do so. Therefore, one is looking at a complicated position in terms of regulation and the impact it will have, in a way that has been eloquently identified in a number of contributions from the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, from her understanding, unique in this Chamber, of the operation of both the Championship and the Premier League.

I will continue to seek clarity, as I am sure others will, on what is intended behind the work of the regulator. That is what we are here to do, and we should do it step by step as we look at each clause and subsection. Having made those comments and noted what the Minister said, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 51 withdrawn.

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[Lord Moynihan (Con)]

I only wish I could say to the noble Lord that that is what we have in front of us. Had we had the opportunity to sit with him and explore each and every clause as we have gone through this, we might have been able to say so, but that is not the case. This is not light-touch regulation. This is not even regulation that you find in the Companies Act.

Let me give the noble Lord a quick example; I risk admonition for repeating a point that I made earlier, but I will make it very quickly indeed. When you give powers to the regulator to explore not just the controlling influence of a football club but those who “significantly” influence a football club, those are very different roles. You have “controlling” in the Premier League; you have “significant influence” in the Bill. Significant influence can reach back as far as the Crown Prince, who has significant influence over the PIF, which owns Newcastle, whereas, by definition in this Bill, he does not control that club, nor would the Premier League investigate him on that basis.

So it is reasonable to accept the noble Lord’s premise—I wish it were true that this is light-touch regulation—but, in reality, this is incredibly intrusive, highly detailed regulation. It goes further than the regulation I put in place in 1990 when I was the Minister responsible for water privatisation and we were setting up Ofwat. That was light-touch regulation in comparison with this extraordinarily detailed Bill. That is the most important point driving my concern about unintended consequences—what some people call the “mission creep” of regulation.

I turn to the amendments. Given that we are going to have a Bill for the reason that the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, said—there is all-party support for having legislation of this kind—we may as well get it right. There is real merit in looking at the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett—backed so eloquently, as ever, by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson—which would

“ensure regulated clubs have a clear, appropriate governance structure with a board consisting of executive and non-executive directors enabling decisions to be taken collectively”.

I hope that it would not be just regulated clubs. I hope that all clubs in all sports would do that, because the benefits of having both executive and non-executive directors is well known to those of us in sport—not least in the British Olympic Association, which I had the privilege of chairing.

The noble Lord, Lord Mann, has widespread support in this House for the work he has done on anti-Semitism and anti-Semitism training. I am glad that he tabled his amendment, because it gives us an opportunity to thank him on behalf of sport and on behalf of football. That work has been absolutely critical; I say this not just as a fellow Leeds fan but because, across sport as a whole, it is vital that we put equality, inclusion and diversity right at the top of what we do.

We are expected to do that outside football. I have an interest to declare as the chair of Amey, which has some 13,000 people. Almost the first thing that I did as chairman was set up an ESG committee immediately beneath the board and chair it so that I could ensure inclusion and diversity were right at the heart of our policy and were in the DNA of everybody who worked in that organisation. I do not believe that that is different from sport and I do not believe that that is different from football.

So, if we are to have legislation—which, as noble Lords know, I regret—let us get this right and listen carefully to what the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, said in the first 50% of his speech, and to the noble Lords, Lord Knight and Lord Mann. There is real merit in the Minister taking this away and thinking about what we would expect to see from the regulator in this context.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

My Lords, I was not intending to speak in this debate, but I am afraid that some of the comments that have been made have obliged me to do so.

However, before I come on to the amendments and the comments made in the speeches, I would just like all your Lordships to look around you. We are talking about equality, inclusion and diversity. What proportion of this Chamber is disabled, non-white, gay or lesbian? The answer is: very, very few. It is a compliment to the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, that she is a great example of what women can achieve at the top of the football tree, and that we have a female Minister responding. But I stand here, as I said in my first speech to this Chamber, as the founder chairman of the world’s first gay rugby club. It celebrated its 29th anniversary only just under two months ago and will celebrate, I expect, its 30th anniversary next 1 November.

I find it utterly unacceptable to suggest, as has been suggested, that we should not tackle the question of trans individuals in society. I am proud that I did a podcast the other week with a member of my club, who himself has undergone the process of moving from female to male. He is proud of having done it. There are issues that we have to address in society, as well as issues that we have to address in sport. I believe that on occasion it is appropriate to put things into legislation as an “encouragement” to people to behave in a certain way. It is all very well saying, “Well, we have the right policies and we’ll do it all right”, but I come back to this point: look at this Chamber.

I have not taken any guidance, as Lord Blunkett suggested, from the Premier League, and in fact, on a previous occasion in Committee, I made the point that actually the Premiers League, for all its right efforts, was not messaging correctly. I believe that that is the case here. In rugby we have had openly gay World Cup final referees and a captain of the Welsh rugby team, but we have no openly gay, top-level professional players at the moment, as far as I am aware. But football is behind the times despite the best encouragements from individuals, and it is therefore well worth while asking the question of the Minister and of the regulator, “How are you actually going to tackle these issues?”—because issues they remain.

I will conclude on the observation in relation to Rainbow Laces. Rainbow Laces has been adopted by sport throughout as a means of messaging to people as to how they should behave to other minority groups. They must continue to do so. It is not a political gesture; it is a gesture on behalf of society as a whole to other parts of society. I believe we have achieved so much, but we could achieve so much more.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

Maybe the noble Lord and I can have a fruitful conversation outside this debate. For today’s purposes, does he understand that in a discussion about inclusion and diversity, women are concerned about women’s rights and women’s equality? Among women footballers and the parents of young girls they are encouraging to get involved in women’s football and training and so on, there is great discomfort, as the tennis guru Judy Murray said at the weekend. Will he acknowledge that this has nothing to do with individuals? It is to do with the political approach. At the moment, women do not feel included or represented in football because this issue is put to one side, and therefore everyone talking about EDI and all the rest of it is just a slap in the face.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

I understand the concerns and am quite happy to take a conversation with any Member of the House outside this Chamber. I do not want to prolong the debate this afternoon. I have made my comments. I hope that the regulations we follow in relation to this regulator coincide with company legislation, because that seems to be the appropriate route to go down. I will no doubt continue at a later stage. I think it is important above all to send out a very clear message from this Chamber about what we believe we should achieve—not necessarily legislate—in relation to equality, inclusion and diversity.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

My Lords, in opening this debate, the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, expressed the hope that we would not take another hour dealing with this group of amendments. We have taken well over an hour. I find this debate very odd because we all seem to agree that equality, diversity and inclusion are of enormous importance in football. The noble Baroness, Lady Brady, rightly spoke of the great efforts that West Ham in particular has made and the great results. Many other clubs have done the same. I would be astonished if a Bill dealing with these matters did not require the independent regulator to look at equality, diversity and inclusion and to have broad powers across the scope of football to do so.

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[Lord Markham (Con)]

I thank noble Lords for their contributions, and the Minister for replying. Before I come to address what has been said, I thank my noble friends for their contributions and especially my noble friend Lady Brady for her point that there are concerns about UEFA competitions as well that we are seeking to address in this.

Although I did not hear anyone say that these were not desirable objectives, I heard two reasons not to introduce them. First, the Minister said that we are already successful on investment and the Bill will not deter it. I am afraid that is where there is a fundamental disagreement, because the Bill introduces new aspects to this. It gives the regulator responsibility to make sure clubs are sustainable and says that the regulator can look at this through things such as the parachute payments and the solidarity payments. That fundamentally changes the investment proposition in clubs. The letter from the Brentford chair makes the point, as have others, that clubs would be much less likely to invest in new players and in resources if they did not have the safety net of parachute payments if they were to go down. That will directly affect investment in clubs via the change in the laws that we are talking about and the responsibilities of the regulator to look only at sustainability. It is the same for solidarity payments. We are changing the playing field and moving the goalposts, so we cannot expect everything to go on as normal. That will inevitably affect the investment proposition, so it will impact the amount of money we see going into the game.

That comes on to the second point that was raised about why we should not introduce these amendments: that we are somehow trying to expand the regulator’s duties, which goes counter to everything we have said so far about it being light touch. That is not what we are trying to do. We are trying to make sure that the regulator will have more than one objective when it looks at the measures it can take. If it has only one objective, about sustainability, we hope it will interpret it broadly, but I could make all clubs sustainable tomorrow by saying that all the Premier League money should be distributed. That would do it. It would give everyone loads of money, it is completely sustainable and the regulator could say, “That’s fantastic, job done”. But we know it would fundamentally harm the whole structure and the whole environment.

I do not think for one moment that a regulator would be as unwise as that, but the main point of what we are trying to do is to set out what we believe are the right objectives. As I mentioned, the Government have done that with the Bank of England and given it growth objectives alongside inflation objectives. They have done it with Ofwat and with Ofgem. They have given all of them their regulatory requirements and a growth objective. We are trying to make sure that the regulator is wise in any measures it puts in place by always having other objectives that are for the good of the game. That is not increasing its reach; it is just making sure that it has more than one objective. I hope this is something we will be able to talk about further.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

Was my noble friend as surprised as I was by the Minister’s use of the phrase that the Bill should be clear and concise? Is not the problem we have been trying to tackle precisely that there is a complete lack of clarity in a Bill that is anything but concise?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

Yes, and I thank my noble friend for exactly that point. It is about the clarity of the objective. The most important thing we can all do as legislators is set down what we think the regulator should do. That is why we spent three days trying to work out exactly what we want. It is fundamental to everything we are trying to do. That is why it is taking time. I hear reasons such as, “It’s not necessary”, but why not make it an objective? If the regulator is going to do it anyway then fair enough, but why not be sure that it will take growth and success as its key North Star in all this? With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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The Government’s own view is that the women’s game should have the opportunity to grow and self-regulate, not least by remaining autonomous, free and unburdened by regulation. They understand that, for the women’s game to professionalise and grow, it needs to invest ahead of revenues and take calculated risks. If we believe that commercial freedom and investment are the keys to the success of the women’s game, I have to ask: why are we so quick to strip those principles away from the men’s game? Why do the Government appear so resistant to reasonable amendments that will provide checks, balances and guard-rails as we take this leap into the unknown?

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

My Lords, I will follow on from a comment by the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, on the contribution made by the men’s game and men’s clubs to the women’s team in the same club.

The noble Lord, Lord Addington, and I worked with others to ensure that the women’s rugby tournament was brought to this country next year. We are pleased to say that we were successful in doing that, but it needed assistance from the Government and it received a grant.

The Minister has, on a number of occasions, referred to the levy being proportionate, and I have been critical of her on this. It is important that an indication is given as to whether money paid by a football club—let us take West Ham as an example—to support the women’s club will be taken into consideration by the regulator when assessing what payment should be made overall to the levy. There would be a serious danger that, if that money is included in the regulator’s assessment of what is proportionate, football clubs will, quite naturally, reduce the amount of money that they give to the women’s game.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, like others, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mann, for moving his Amendment 65, which probes an important area and a potentially concerning consequence. I am grateful for the example that he raised of Solihull Moors and look forward to the reassurances that I hope the Minister will give. However, even if she gives those reassurances, the noble Lord’s amendment is modest and I wonder whether there is a case—belt and braces—for us to make an amendment saying that the regulator should work in a way that does not have an adverse impact on women’s football. That feels sensible, even if the Minister does not share the concern about the specific instance that her noble friend has raised.

Like others who have spoken, we on these Benches are full of praise and excitement for the role that women’s football and women’s sport more generally play in our society. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, spoke powerfully about the inspiration that it is to many young women and girls, the transformative impacts that it has on their health and so much more. I am pleased that we have come such a long way from the days of old, when women were banned from playing professional football—a ban that was lifted only in 1971, but the effect of which can still be seen and has reverberated through the development of the women’s game for generations.

The FA took on the administration of women’s football only 30 years ago, in 1994, and the Women’s Super League became a fully professional league only in 2018. But, as noble Lords have pointed out, recent years have seen some striking, powerful and inspirational examples of the growth in the women’s game and, hearteningly, in the interest and appreciation that it is getting right across society. Correspondingly, there has been an enormous increase in the attention that it has garnered, with 77,000 fans attending the women’s FA Cup final last year. I know that all noble Lords fondly remember the astounding victory achieved by the Lionesses in the 2022 European Championship.

However, there is a concern, as has been expressed in this debate, that regulating women’s football now might not be the right moment in the development of the women’s game and women’s clubs. The Raising the Bar report, led by Karen Carney, stated:

“Given its stage of development, continued growth of matchday, broadcast and sponsorship revenue—with a view for the women’s game to become independently sustainable—is the right way to incentivise continued long term investment by clubs”.


Women’s football is obviously, and regrettably, not at the same stage of development as the men’s game—the men’s game had such a significant head start in terms of the professional apparatus around it—and the relative losses incurred by clubs are not in the same ballpark. Thus issues with financial stability are not comparable. There is recognition of that, although there was some surprise and, at Second Reading, a number of noble Lords from across the House rightly mentioned the women’s game as an area for us to be mindful of, so it was helpful to have had this debate.

Another issue is the level of investment that women’s football requires. As my noble friend Lady Brady pointed out, for women’s teams to come closer to the men’s game, significant financial investment will be needed. We are therefore right to question whether that is best served by and encouraged through this regulatory regime. However, I note the paradoxes that my noble friend highlighted in making that point and applying it to the women’s game, while conceding the argument in relation to the men’s game. I therefore understand why, at present, women’s football might not be included in the scope of this new regulatory regime.

However, it is useful to have had this debate and it would be useful to understand the Government’s intent here. Perhaps the Minister can explain the means by which the women’s game might be brought closer to the men’s game and how, if that happens and it falls into some of the same mistakes that we have seen in the men’s game, the women’s game might be captured by this regulatory regime. On the flipside, if the men’s regime learns from the women’s game and is able to regulate itself better, would that mean that there will be a lightening of the regulatory burden or are we past the point of no return for the men’s game? It would be interesting to hear that.

Like my noble friend Lord Moynihan, I slightly regret the wording of giving the women’s game a “chance” to regulate itself, but I am sure from looking at the Government’s accompanying notes that it is not meant pejoratively.

Amendment 72 from the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, sits slightly uneasily with the others because it is not just about the women’s game, but she explained why she has tabled that amendment and why she hopes to hear a bit from her noble friend the Minister. What she is seeking here is a welcome addition; it is only right that the regulator should be required to give assistance to clubs that are seeking licences. One of the themes that has been drawn out by many noble Lords in our scrutiny so far is the issue of how clubs will be able to adjust to these new licensing requirements. If the regulator does not implement this scheme in the correct manner, clubs will suffer, so it is only right that it should provide assistance to clubs to allow them effectively and efficiently to understand the new requirements that the Bill and its regulatory regime bring about. I will listen with interest to the Minister’s response to her noble friend on that and the other amendments in this group.