Westminster Hall

Tuesday 5th November 2024 Westminster Hall

Tuesday 5 November 2024

[Sir Christopher Chope in the Chair]

Woman and Equality: North of England

Tuesday 5th November 2024 Westminster Hall

11:00

[Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered inequalities faced by women in the north of England.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sirusb Christopher. This debate is about the “Woman of the North” report, published in September 2024 by Health Equity North. I thank Health Equity North for the report and for their support for today’s debate, as well as all those who contributed to that vital research.

Women in the north of England face unequal challenges and inequalities in their lives and their health, compared with the rest of the country. They are more likely to work more hours for less pay and be in worse health. They are also more likely to be an unpaid carer, live in poverty and have fewer qualifications. In fact, the inequality between women living in the north of England and those in the rest of the country has grown over the past decade. It has harmed women’s quality of life and work and harmed their communities and families.

Today, I am going to debate the key findings of the research and highlight the report’s recommendations. The report does not make for easy reading. Even though the Minister, like me, will be all too aware of the impact of austerity on our communities, many of the findings will, I am sure, come as a shock, as they did for me.

I will not be able to cover everything, but I hope the debate will begin a dialogue between the Department and the contributors to this important research.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I commend the hon. Lady for bringing this issue forward. First, there is an anomaly—there are two and a half times more self-employed men than women, with jobs and opportunities. Women have the skills and the talent, but one of the things that holds them back is childcare. It does not matter where someone is in this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland: if they do not have childcare, they have nothing—they cannot get the opportunities. Last week on the TV it said that the cost of childcare for some families is as much as the mortgage. That is a massive issue.

[Mary Kelly Foy]

I could not agree more. That is why I am pleased that the Labour Government will be bringing in thousands of new nursery places and breakfast clubs, which will hopefully alleviate some of the problems of childcare. I know that childcare is an issue not just in the north of England but also in the north of Ireland.

I shall begin with employment. Employment rates for women in the north are lower than the national average of 72.2%. In my region, the north-east, the rate is just under 70%; in Yorkshire and the Humber, it is just over 70%; and in the Minister’s region, the north-west, it is just over 71%.

Disability and long-term sickness is a major issue in the north. All northern regions have levels of disability and long-term sickness higher than the national average, and considerably higher than the south-east. The report states that the resulting estimated economic cost is around £0.4 billion per annum. Compounding that is the fact that the median weekly wage for women in the north is below the national average for both full-time and part-time employment. For instance, the average weekly wage for a full-time working woman in the north-east is £569. That is much lower than the national average of £625 and considerably lower than the average weekly wage for women in London, £757. Overall, women in the north could be losing out on around £132 million a week.

In terms of education, the number of women without qualifications is higher in the north than it is in the south and the south-east. That leads to the next point about women and poverty—an issue that is worth its own debate. A higher percentage of families in the north are on universal credit than in regions in the south. In fact, the average number of families on universal credit across the north is 3% higher than in the south. The figure is even higher if London is excluded.

All 12 local authorities in the north-east have rates of absolute child poverty above the English average. By contrast, all 30 local authorities in the south-west have rates of absolute child poverty below the English average.

The north is also the region of unpaid care, with 12% of women in the north-east providing it—just under 2% higher than the national average. Health Equity North estimates that women in the north are providing around £10 billion a year in unpaid care. Harrowingly, it also estimates that, in the last decade, the life expectancy of girls born in the north of England has begun to stall and in some cases decrease. In addition, girls born in the north will not live as long in good health compared with the national average. For older women, menopause is often cited as a potential driver of change in women’s health, which makes it all the more concerning that there are regional differences in levels of hormone replacement therapy, with lower levels of HRT being prescribed in the north of England.

The picture is even more bleak when we consider pregnancy and reproductive health. We have seen the biggest increase in abortion rates between 2012 and 2021, and there has been a demonstrable relationship between austerity, the implementation of the Tory two-child limit and the increased rate of abortions. I should also add that the two-child limit itself affects over a million children in the country, and it impacts over 60,000 babies, children and young people in the north-east alone. Right now, over 25% of pregnant women in the north of England are living in the most deprived 10% of areas, with 40% of pregnant women living in the top 20% most destitute areas. Tragically, stillbirths are the highest in the most deprived communities, and highest among black African and Caribbean women living in the areas of greatest deprivation. Also, women living in poverty are at increased risk of death and depression. Subsequently, babies are at a higher risk of stillbirth, neonatal death, pre-term delivery and low birth weight.

The report also refers to smoking and pregnancy; I am glad to see that the Tobacco and Vapes Bill will receive its First Reading today. It would be good to hear from the Minister whether the Government will continue to fund the financial incentives scheme for pregnant smokers.

Women in the north of England have the highest rates of domestic violence abuse in the country, which is something that many children are exposed to. That also deserves its own debate. When we consider mental health, the report highlights that, in a cohort of over a million women aged between 16 and 65, from 2005 to 2018, the prevalence of mental illness was higher in three northern regions compared with the south of England. With severe mental illnesses, such as bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, the north-west and the north have higher prevalence rates. Lastly, the report covers the reality of marginalised women in the north, which includes a range of areas, from criminal justice to education and health, as well as issues related to homelessness and substance abuse. I do not have time to go into each point, but I encourage the Minister to read that section if he has not already, and I will either write to him about those issues or table parliamentary questions.

The report’s recommendations are spread across multiple departmental areas, so the Minister may want to follow up in writing if he prefers. One key recommendation of the “Woman of the North” report is that central Government should deliver a national health inequalities strategy—one that convenes Government Departments from across Whitehall to put health at the heart of all policies to address the wider determinants of health. Many of the policies announced in the Budget, as well as the Employment Rights Bill, will be welcome, such as uprating universal credit in line with inflation and tackling zero-hours contracts. Of course, we wait in anticipation for the child poverty taskforce strategy next year, and I sincerely hope that we will see an end to the Tory two-child limit. In addition, the report recommends that the Treasury should consider targeted support for pregnant women, as well as improving childcare. When it comes to local and regional government, which I know the Minister has experience in, the report suggests targeted support delivered to 11 to 18-year-olds through careers hubs in the areas of greatest deprivation and a higher level of the adult education budget for the north. Greater support is also required for women navigating the social security system and for social security uptake, and for women to transition back to their families and integrate into their communities after involvement in the criminal justice system.

Finally, with health and social care, NHS England could provide additional support and investment for women’s health hubs, and health services should be supported to collect routine data on ethnicity and other key demographic data. That would help deliver better information for service development and improve our understanding of different health needs. It would also explore the ways in which the services’ work can be adapted to address health inequalities across different population groups, with examples including providing cultural sensitivity training, adopting a trauma-informed approach to care and promoting person-centred approaches.

I have been an MP since 2019 and have spoken about health inequalities ever since I was elected. Today’s debate is not pleasant, but I am genuinely hopeful that we can turn a page under a Labour Government. We have already seen positive measures, such as those in the Employment Rights Bill and the Budget. I look forward to the Minister’s reply and hope to work with him alongside Health Equity North to deliver happiness and dignity for women in the north, which is long overdue.

11:11

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Christopher. I am grateful to be responding for the Government to this vital discussion brought to the House today by my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham (Mary Kelly Foy) about the issues raised by the “Woman of the North” report. The report highlights the challenges facing women across the northern regions of England and I am pleased that the Government’s women’s health ambassador, Professor Dame Lesley Regan, delivered a keynote speech at the report’s launch in September, in which she spoke about the importance of addressing the health inequalities faced by women living in the north of England.

While the report brings into focus the striking health inequalities that women in the north contend with, our Government are committed to addressing those regional inequalities head on. I will be clear, up front, that the conditions outlined in the report are unacceptable in a country as resourceful as ours. Women in the north face stark inequalities, not just in health but, as we heard from my hon. Friend, in economic security and social support. Our response must be to tackle those on multiple fronts, and that work has already begun.

We are committed to working across Government to tackle wider inequalities that lead to poor health, focusing our health and care system on preventing ill health, shifting more care into the community and intervening earlier in life to raise the healthiest generation of children in our country’s history. We will improve healthy life expectancy for all and halve the gap in healthy life expectancy between different regions of England.

The Government are committed to prioritising women’s health as we build an NHS that is fit for the future, and women’s equality will be at the heart of our missions. We are considering how to take forward the women’s health strategy developed by the last Administration, but we want to align it with the Government’s missions and the forthcoming 10-year health plan. The report is therefore timely. As my hon. Friend set out so powerfully, reducing inequalities must be a central focus in our strategy going forward. We will carefully consider each of the report’s recommendations as we do that, and I will ensure that Ministers across Government have sight of the report and consider those recommendations that relate to their policy areas.

My hon. Friend mentioned women’s health hubs, which will be key to improving access to women’s health services and reducing the inequalities we care so passionately about tackling. They will do that by providing a set of integrated women’s health services in the community, centred on meeting women’s needs across their life. The Department has invested £25 million over the past year and over 2024-25 to support the establishment of at least one pilot women’s health hub in every integrated care system. I am pleased to say that integrated care systems in the north of England are making good progress on setting up their pilot hubs. For example, the funding is being used to set up three pilot hubs—two in Sunderland and Gateshead in the north-east and one in north Cumbria—with a strong focus on tackling inequalities and community outreach.

My hon. Friend also mentioned smoking, which is a huge driver of inequalities in too many communities, particularly, but not exclusively, in the north of England. She is right, and I can confirm—on the day the tobacco and vapes Bill receives its First Reading—that good-quality smoking cessation services remain a big part of the jigsaw in achieving a smoke-free UK. I can report that financial incentives are working well.

I mentioned some of the wider social inequalities that underpin poorer health chances, as did the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). It is shocking that a woman in the north, working full time, may earn £56 less per week than the national average, and £188 less than a woman in London. Every part of the country has a vital contribution to make to our economy, but too many areas have been held back because decisions are often taken here in Westminster and not by local leaders who understand the ambitions, strengths and opportunities—and the weaknesses and threats—of the local population.

That is why the new Labour Government are committed to empowering local government, enabling it to pursue growth, create jobs and improve living standards, with support from central resources. Providing central support where needed, we will ensure that the places we are talking about have the strong governance arrangements, capacity and capability to deliver. In addition, as my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer set out in our first Budget last week, the national living wage will increase from £11.44 to £12.21 next April. That boost—one of the largest since the creation of the national minimum wage in 1998—benefits women, who make up a significant proportion of minimum wage earners.

Turning to mental health and domestic violence, the “Woman of the North” report revealed stark challenges facing northern women, with rising rates of mental illness and domestic violence. We have committed to taking a number of important measures to improve support for women, which we are already introducing those across Government. We are committed to an NHS that is responsive and accessible, with 8,500 new mental health workers to reduce waiting times, and a specialist mental health professional in every school. Young Futures hubs in every community will also offer open-access mental health support for young people, including girls.

Recognising healthcare’s role as a frontline for survivors, all NHS staff undertake mandatory safeguarding training, which includes a focus on domestic abuse. Furthermore, my Department has published and disseminated a working definition of trauma-informed practice for the health and care sector. NHS integrated care boards enable provision of more integrated services for victims and survivors. The Victims and Prisoners Act 2024 also places a new legal duty on integrated care boards to work with local authorities and with police and crime commissioners to join up the commissioning of victim support services.

One of the most striking points raised in the report is the extraordinary burden of unpaid care on northern women. Women who give over 50 hours a week in care duties deserve our utmost respect, as well as the support of this Government, and we are working to ensure that they have it. Our recent increase in the earnings threshold for carer’s allowance will help 60,000 more carers to maintain work while receiving financial support. For the first time, carers can now earn more without reducing hours, due to minimum wage rises. That will bring much-needed financial stability to carers and allow them to retain their links to the labour market, which is crucial.

We will continue to monitor and respond to the needs of carers, ensuring that they have the resources to support their families and wider communities. Moving forward, we will continue to assess the needs of carers, in the north and beyond, to ensure that we are offering tangible, effective assistance to those unsung heroes.

I put on record that the Government’s commitment to our northern communities, and to the women who drive them forward, is unwavering. We recognise that the strength of our nation rests on the health, security and potential of all women, regardless of where they live. But we know, as northern MPs, the stark inequalities that are far too prevalent in far too many parts of the regions that make up the north of England. For women in the north of England, we will ensure that we rebalance not only their health outcomes but the economic opportunities offered to them. It is not a matter only of justice, but of building a society that values every woman’s contribution equally and that provides her with the means to thrive.

Let me affirm that this Government, and I as the Minister responsible for public health and prevention—albeit a man—stand ready to support the women of the north, and every woman in this country, by addressing the entrenched inequalities that hold too many women back. Through our co-ordinated efforts across health, economic policy and social care, we will see the real benefits of a mission-led Government who do not work in silos but across the whole of Government to tackle the needs of the citizen—in this case women, including women in the north—as we march towards the decade of national renewal that the country voted for on 4 July.

That co-ordinated effort will be across health, economic policy, social care, housing, planning, transport, the environment and all public policy, such as education, skills and training. We will work towards a future where all women, wherever they are in this country—although I and my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham are northerners, and this debate is about the north of England—can look forward to lives filled with good health, economic security and the opportunity to achieve their potential.

I will leave the House with just one thought. On my first day as public health Minister, I had lots of presentations to bring me up to speed on a range of policy areas, and the first was on life expectancy. There was a simple bar chart that showed two women: one who has the privilege of living in a less deprived part of England and one who has the misfortune of living in a more deprived part of England. The life expectancy of the woman in the less deprived part was just shy of 80—79.9 on average. For the other woman, it was 70—10 years were shorn off her life.

But that was not the most shocking part of the chart. The two bars were shaded in part in orange, which signified the healthy life expectancy of the two women. The woman who lives to nearly 80 in the less deprived part of England falls into ill health at 75. All of her working adult life is spent in good health, and she falls into ill health only in the final five years of her life. The other woman, who lives to 70, falls into ill health at 52. That shocked me to the core. Those are not statistics; they are people—people I and my hon. Friend represent. Indeed, there are inequalities across the country, and they are people you too represent, Sir Christopher.

Each person falling into ill health with another 15 or 16 years of adult working life to go is a tragedy on a personal level. It is the economics of the madhouse, because those people have potential—they have economic ability and hopes and dreams that are whipped away because of inequalities. It is the duty of Government to push that orange bar as close to retirement age as possible for those women, and preferably into retirement age. Look, let’s be ambitious: let’s put sickness beyond death. It is the duty of Government to tackle those health inequalities. I hope I have assured the House, and my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham, that while I am in this ministerial post, it will be my No. 1 aim to make sure that we live healthier, happier, longer lives. Here’s to the women of the north.

Question put and agreed to.

11:28

Sitting suspended.

Future of Fishing

Tuesday 5th November 2024 Westminster Hall

[Clive Efford in the Chair]

11:54

[Rupert Lowe (Great Yarmouth) (Reform)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the future of fishing after 2026.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Efford.

Britain has some of the richest fishing grounds in the world within our 200-nautical-mile, or 230-mile, coastal limit, within which we own both living and non-living resources. Historically, that gold mine has supported a flourishing fishing industry, as well as an extensive fish-processing industry, to supply valuable, healthy, sustainable food to both domestic and export markets. Iceland, Norway and the Faroe Islands enjoy a profitable and sustainable fishing industry and are the model to which we should aspire.

In June 2016, 17.4 million people voted to leave the European Union in an unambiguously worded referendum called by David Cameron. To understand the demise of our fishing industry, which was severely damaged by both world war one and world war two, it is important to understand the history. Britain, Russia and Serbia have always provided the balance of power between the frequent Franco-German wars on the continent. After the defeat of Napoleon in 1815, Europe enjoyed 100 years of peace, free trade, and both fishing and general prosperity. In 1914, a unified Germany precipitated the worst ever European war, which combined improving armament technology and early forms of biological warfare, resulting in massive loss of life. That war was followed 20 years later by another brutal, German-inspired war, which caused widespread death, dislocation and economic misery as Hitler sought to conquer Europe. The British establishment came close to surrender to Mr Hitler, avoided only by the inspirational Winston Churchill.

The post-war socialist reconstruction of Europe reflected the continent’s loss of confidence and the need to mutualise the risk of another Franco-German conflict. The British empire began to break up, and the British establishment lost the will to govern a proud sovereign nation as socialism precipitated a visit to the International Monetary Fund and a sterling crisis in the 1970s.

We joined the European “Economic” Community in 1973. British fishing was one of the sacrificial industries to pay the price for that membership, as the other member states were free to fish outside a 12-mile coastal band, with some allowed to fish in the 6 to 12-mile zone. It is interesting that the Dutch were active in fishing our waters before we won the fourth Anglo-Dutch war in 1784, with the North sea described as “the principal gold mine” of the Dutch. After the defeat of Napoleon in 1815, in which Admiral Nelson, a proud—

[Rachel Gilmour (Tiverton and Minehead) (LD)]

I came here under the misapprehension that I was attending a debate on fishing. I know my history perfectly well. Could we move on to fish, please?

[Rupert Lowe]

That was a very unhelpful intervention. Nevertheless, I will carry on as I was before.

It is interesting to note that after the defeat of Napoleon in 1815, in which Admiral Nelson, a proud Norfolk man, played a prominent part, British fishing had a golden century. My constituency, Great Yarmouth, is known as the herring capital of the world, with herring fishing at its peak between 1900 and 1913, when up to 12 million tonnes of bloaters were landed, processed and sold. Sales were domestic, with a prolific export of smoked herring going to both Germany and Russia. Mackerel, cod and sole off the Dogger bank were also prolific.

Since our membership of the EU, European fishing fleets have fished our waters heavily, using questionable methods such as electric pulse fishing, which damages the seabed and destroys biodiversity. Supertrawlers continue to plunder our waters, scooping up whole shoals of fish, including seabass, common dolphin, bluefin tuna and John Dory, driven more by profit than by conservation.

Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs marine management is allowing EU vessels to help themselves to our fish, unmonitored and unregulated. EU supertrawlers have destroyed fisheries off west Africa, have been banned in Australia and are causing controversy in Chile. Our EU membership severely damaged our fishing and fish processing industries, with the threat of breaking up our legacy fishing skills, permanently destroying our fishing expertise. Fishing and processing will require extensive investment, but the full return of our fishing rights in 2026 under the deficient Brexit arrangement will be a golden opportunity to rebuild both industries and revitalise our coastal communities, which have been overlooked and badly treated.

The model for this reconstruction has to be Iceland, which took control of her 200-mile coastal waters and is now a flourishing centre for fishing and fish processing, with a vibrant export market. Within two weeks of the now-forgotten cod war, we were importing Icelandic fish, to be processed in Hull factories, which were desperate for raw fish to keep their staff employed. Holland, France and Belgium have huge factories in rather the same way.

Europe has, by design, made Brexit very difficult for the UK. It has quibbled over quality, created uncertainty and filibustered in the hope that the UK will rejoin its failing post-war trade bloc, founded on a protectionist, socialist philosophy. It needs our fish. Currently the French have 92% of cod quota in the channel, and three times the British allocation of Dover sole, four times more cod and five times more haddock in the Celtic sea.

[Torcuil Crichton (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Rupert Lowe]

I am going to carry on.

Of the 35,000 tonnes of fish that arrive in Boulogne each year, two thirds come from British waters. There is an opportunity to rebuild the industry. One job at sea supports eight jobs on the land: processors, merchants, transport operatives, shipbuilders, welders, platers, electricians, carpenters, engineers, painters and other areas of expertise benefit. DEFRA’s inability to respond to the evolving industry is exemplified by the emergence of bluefin tuna in British waters. Quotas exist for only 40 tonnes, but 400 tonnes to 600 tonnes would help start the process of rebuilding.

We must ensure that fish are landed in our ports. An education programme must be undertaken to promote British fish. Tax breaks must be given for fishing boat purchases and processing factory construction. If the Government are intent on fulfilling their duty to the British electorate, we need to know their post-2026 plans for a rebuilding blueprint to benefit our economy and food security. Our £100 billion trade deficit was overlooked in our Brexit negotiations, which resulted in a border down the Irish sea and a threat to the sanctity of the Union. We need to know the Government’s intentions now. The Reform party has the blueprint for success, but it cannot be put in place without a committed intent to act in Britain’s best interest.

How can we move forward and ensure the fishing industry is properly protected and supported as it should be? We need to introduce a revised version of the Merchant Shipping Act 1988 to rebalance quotas and protect against quota hopping and foreign exploitation. We must speed up the return of the fishing quota to UK fishermen. We should introduce a fee or licence for foreign vessels—including EU vessels—seeking to access UK fishing waters, and the money should be invested directly in the UK fishing industry. We should enforce rules stating that all fish caught in UK waters must be landed and processed in, and then exported from, the UK, with the eventual rule that all fish caught by foreign vessels in UK waters will be landed and processed in the UK once the fish processing industry has reached sufficient capacity. We should ban foreign supertrawlers from UK waters.

[Melanie Onn (Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes) (Lab)]

rose—

[Torcuil Crichton]

rose—

[Rupert Lowe]

We should bring fishing communities and their generational knowledge into the policymaking process. We should guarantee sustainable stocks by working closely with national partners and regional organisations such as the North East Atlantic Fisheries Commission, and by implementing a dynamic management system. We need wholesale reform of the quota system and a ban on the commercial trading of fishing quotas. We should use stringent tax and provenance tests to prevent foreign owners from using a British flag of convenience. Crucially, we should ensure full British control over our exclusive economic zone.

The time has come for all Members of this House who represent coastal communities to come together to fight for British fishermen. We must unite and push this Government to restore full British fishing rights in British waters. Anything short of that would be an unacceptable failure.

[Clive Efford (in the Chair)]

I remind Members who intend to speak to stand in their place to give me a chance of understanding how many people want to make a contribution.

14:41

[Torcuil Crichton (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Efford. I thank the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth (Rupert Lowe) for staging this important debate. As he would not take an intervention, I am forced on to my feet to make a speech, if only to ask him whether he is aware that two thirds of the UK’s fishing quota is owned by just 25 businesses, and that 80% of England’s fishing quota is in the hands of foreign owners or families who appear on the Sunday Times rich list each year. How we will resolve that foreign ownership of the fleet and the quota is a question that he must answer in his conclusion.

I come here fresh from the annual general meeting of the Western Isles Fishermen’s Association in my constituency. While fishing quotas are devolved to another Parliament, I think the principles that I will address—on which I might find common ground with the hon. Member —are points worth making. The Western Isles Fishermen’s Association looks on Brexit, as many of us do, as having just one glimmer of hope, and that is the return of fishing quota to the UK Government. It has led to additional fishing quota being available, at least for the next two years, and the distribution of that quota is devolved among all different Governments.

The Western Isles Fishermen’s Association argues, as I do, that that is a national resource and should be distributed in a system that is fair, and that takes into account, as the hon. Member says, the economic linkage between quotas, fragile coastal communities, and those that are adjacent to quotas. If the quota is distributed according to historical catching patterns, it will simply go to those on the Sunday Times rich list and the foreign shipping owners he so deplores.

On the historical track record, the distribution of quota would not give any opportunity to our coastal communities. The system has to be rethought, it has to be linked, and additional quota has to be given to municipal or local authorities in order that they can share or lease that quota to locally based boats and build up—as the hon. Member wants too—from very small beginnings a new pelagic fleet, new processing and a new future.

[Melanie Onn]

I am struck by the need for intense negotiation and good relationships, which will form the basis of a good outcome post 2026 and even of the structural reform that the hon. Gentleman describes. Does he agree that an adversarial approach, such as preventing people from intervening in historical speeches, is not the way forward if cross-party consensus and a collective view are sought to try to get the best out of our fishing industry post 2026?

[Torcuil Crichton]

I agree that we should disagree agreeably when it comes to common national assets such as fishing.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

I am interested to see that the hon. Gentleman has rediscovered his distributist roots from Glasgow university. There are serious, practical considerations here to be faced before we get to the point that the hon. Gentleman would want to get to, which has significant force. Most skippers in my constituency, and in his, are carrying massive amounts of debt and loans. If we cut the feet out from underneath them in terms of quota reallocation and the rest, the law of unintended consequences could be really severe for the people who have kept that industry going through the lean times.

[Torcuil Crichton]

I thank the right hon. Member for that; as he knows, fishermen in my constituency look enviously to the north at the vast amount of value landings that have come from the Shetland field. But, if he looks a little further south than his own constituency, Orkney council owns prawn quota, which it then leases out to young fishers to get into the industry. I dare say there are enough fish in the sea, and certainly there is enough quota to be shared out, not to have a deleterious effect on his own constituency.

When the hon. Member for Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes (Melanie Onn) mentions 2026, I think of only one event, the Scottish Parliamentary election, at which I hope this will be an issue, but of course 2026 is also the time of quota renegotiation with the EU and Norway. I hope with the additional quota and in these negotiations, that we can find common ground and a way of sorting this out so that our most fragile coastal communities benefit from the resource at their doorstep.

14:46

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Efford. I congratulate the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth (Rupert Lowe) on bringing this forward. I spoke to him earlier about it, and I am very pleased to be here. Indeed—I can say this without boasting—there has not been a fishing debate in this Chamber in all the time I have been here that I have not attended and participated in, because fishing for me and my constituency is vital. The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland has been here longer than me, so he has spoken in every fishing debate even before that and I thank him for his attendance too.

Why is this debate important? It is a vital issue not simply for the fishing sector in my constituency and in Northern Ireland, but for food security throughout Northern Ireland. For that reason, I contacted the fishing representatives, and their response was clear—I am going to quote them. I am glad to see the Minister here. I know he met the representatives from Northern Ireland and I thank him for that; it was a very good initiative to gauge opinion. I reflect some of that opinion in my contribution today. I am also pleased to see the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Keighley and Ilkley (Robbie Moore) here, and to see his interest in this matter. It is also lovely to see the hon. Member for Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes (Melanie Onn) because the hon. Lady was here in a previous Parliament, she was often active in the fishing debate we had in Westminster Chamber every year before the quota was brought in—almost a date for the calendar so it was.

The Northern Ireland Fish Producers Organisation has made very clear what its issues are. I deal and work with the organisation often and with Harry Wick in particular. The key issue is the visas. That is the issue that the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth has brought up, and the issue that the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Torcuil Crichton) referred to as well. I think others will refer to is as we continue, too. On 24 October we saw seasonal visa allocations confirmed for the horticulture and poultry sector. The Food Minister said:

“Confirming the seasonal worker visa allocation for 2025 gives growers and producers certainty,”—

so they have the certainty—

“allowing them to plan ahead and secure the labour they need to grow and thrive.”

I welcome that; it is the right thing to do. However, it is also the right thing to do for the fishing industry. All the industry wants is that same certainty that the poultry and horticulture sectors have. I know that is one of the questions that the NIFPO asked the Minister this morning. We are well focused on what is important to do. It is not the Minister’s responsibility, but I am quite sure that he will put that forward to the relevant Minister.

The pathway to their growth is clear and easily achieved by showing fishers—fishermen and fisherwomen—the same flexibility that has been shown to the horticulture, poultry, salmon and offshore energy industries. They deserve this. I am honestly unable to understand fully why that certainty for the fishing sector has not been given. The scampi caught by the Northern Irish fleet is the last bastion of UK seafood, caught by UK fishermen and sold at scale in UK supermarkets. We welcome the Minister’s statement:

“Food security is national security, and this can only be achieved by supporting food and farming businesses.”

The Minister is right on the nail; he said the right thing. However, inaction is contraction. With that in mind, and against the background of what the fishing industry is already doing to support itself, I am conscious that fishing businesses in Northern Ireland are now only a few months from bankruptcy. What immediate plans do the Minister and Government have to address the labour supply challenges?

[Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)]

My hon. Friend will know well, as his constituency has a great fishing background, that 30% of Northern Ireland prawns have not been caught this year, as a direct result of labour shortages. The market is there, the produce is there, but labour shortages are holding the industry back. Does he agree that we need action on visas? We cannot keep talking about it; we need action.

[Jim Shannon]

I certainly do, and I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. That is a key issue for me in this debate, which I conveyed to the Minister beforehand. I am confident the Minister will take our thoughts on these issues and bring them forward to the immigration Minister or the Secretary of State. The questions I have asked in the Chamber in the past have focused attention on getting a visa system that works. If we have one that works for one part of the country, for one section of the food sector, we could do the same and mirror that for the fishing sector.

[Seamus Logan (Aberdeenshire North and Moray East) (SNP)]

Does the hon. Member agree that it might be advantageous for the administration or development of visas for these hard-pressed sectors to be devolved to the local Administrations in Scotland and Northern Ireland, for example?

[Jim Shannon]

I think it is better if it comes from Parliament but, if there is an obstruction here to bringing it forward, then yes. I hope the Minister will come back to us positively. If it can happen within regional Administrations that is something to consider, but I am very conscious of Parliament’s prominence and pre-eminence on such decisions. I would not wish to do anything that would change that position, if possible.

A further issue that needs to be looked at is an apparent attempt by the Irish Government—I am not against the Irish Government, but I must make quite clear that I am a Member of this great Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, as is everyone in this room, so we understand the issues—are trying to gerrymander what counts as Irish and what counts as UK herring quota. My local fishing industry has highlighted that they have produced some extremely limited science, which the Agri-Food and Biosciences Institute claims is full of holes, to support their overtures to the EU and the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea. That is quite simply a transparent attempt at a smash and grab to try to recoup what they have lost through Brexit. We feel it is important to get the issue on record. My Minister and my Government in this House need to support the UK fishing fleet against that blatant EU interference.

The shock of Brexit is still felt in some EU fishing quarters. One way that has manifested is in increasingly desperate attempts by EU nations to secure UK quota through the back door. Our fishermen need that quota; we do not need to give it to anybody else. We should look after our own at home first. After having success claiming UK citizens—as the EU has also done—for their football team on the strength of very tenuous genetic links, they are now applying the same strategy to claiming herring quota. My goodness—at what limits will they stop?

I say this gently, respectfully and positively: I would appreciate if the Minister would confirm his Department is alive to EU nations using weak, inaccurate and biased science as a means to circumvent honest negotiation. Can the Minister offer reassurance to the people of Northern Ireland in the fishing sector, who work in the herring boats and processing factories, that he is not going to let other EU countries walk off with their quotas and jobs? What steps will be taken to support our industry?

For too many years the EU fishing industry made their living off our waters and our fish, while we were hampered at every turn. They now seek to abuse regulations further to dip in our pond. That must be acknowledged and dealt with. The hon. Member for Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes is right that we need to negotiate—I understand that—but they also need to realise that this is our fish, these are our jobs and, with that in mind, negotiation has to be handled respectfully. I am respectful to the Minister because he is a decent, honest man, who does a good job. At the same time, I put forward my views in a way that, I hope, he can respect.

[Melanie Onn]

Does the hon. Gentleman think it is easier or harder to undertake those negotiations now that we have left the EU?

[Jim Shannon]

I think as I do with the Irish Government: they are our neighbours, and we have to have economic contact with them. They will not be getting Northern Ireland as part of their great united Ireland, which is their constitutional position; we oppose that, but that does not mean we cannot have working relationships with neighbours. The hon. Lady made a positive and helpful intervention, but we need to start from the level that says, “What we have is ours, and what we have we hold for our fishermen and fisherwomen.” That being the case, the best thing for us to do now is to secure our food and industry and act accordingly for the benefit of everyone throughout this United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. That is what we should be doing.

14:56

[Seamus Logan (Aberdeenshire North and Moray East) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Efford. I thank the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth (Rupert Lowe) for calling this debate today and for his historical inputs, which were a bit of a surprise nevertheless.

The constituency that I represent, Aberdeenshire North and Moray East, boasts two of the largest fishing ports in the UK, Peterhead and Fraserburgh, with Aberdeenshire noted for the highest fishing gross value added of £153 million in 2021, the latest year for which figures are available—48% of the entire Scottish fishing GVA. That is 0.21% of the Scottish economy, seven times the UK figure of 0.03%. It is important to bear that in mind. Fishing has a value of £321 million to the Scottish economy and employs 4,241 people, on those 2021 figures.

Fishing is part of the DNA of our coastal communities. The sea of disappointments that these communities have faced from the previous Government’s broken Brexit promises have cost them dearly, leaving the UK in a far weaker position to negotiate on fishing rights than when we still had a seat at the table in the European Union. These fishing communities face huge economic challenges due to the loss of freedom of movement, as already referred to by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). Principally fish processors, and perhaps to a lesser extent the catching sector, are facing labour shortages, alongside new trade barriers erected by a Tory Brexit deal that was supported by Labour at the time. Trade barriers are estimated to have resulted in a 30% increase in transport costs and a 50% increase in packaging costs.

It is feared that the European Union will use the new Labour Government’s desire to renegotiate the UK’s trade deal with the EU as leverage to secure greater access for EU fishing fleets to UK waters in the pre-2026 negotiations. With the new Labour Government promising a reset ahead of the trade and co-operation agreement negotiations in 2026, there are serious concerns that the coupling of fishing and energy negotiations might be a problem. The potential linkage between energy and fishing in whatever deal is agreed could result in fishing communities in the north-east suffering a far worse deal after 2026. If that happens, the blame will lie squarely with the Westminster Government, but it is the Scottish fishing communities that will pay the price.

I agree with the hon. Member for Strangford that the Minister is doing an excellent job, but he needs to reassure fishing communities in my constituency and indeed across Scotland and these islands that the UK Government will liaise with the Scottish Government and the Scottish fisheries groups to ensure that the best possible deal can be negotiated when the TCA expires, and so that access to our waters will not become a casualty of any new trade deals. I ask him to ensure that these points are fully considered in the coming negotiations.

14:59

[Richard Tice (Boston and Skegness) (Reform)]

It is a pleasure, Mr Efford, to serve under your chairmanship, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Great Yarmouth (Rupert Lowe) on securing this debate.

Boston has a long and rich history in fishing; indeed, fish landed in Lincolnshire ports constituted about 20% of all fish eaten in Britain in the 20th century. However, my fishermen in Boston have been let down by decades of European Union membership—they were delighted to leave the EU—and by over-regulation. In fact, they are deeply concerned about the regulatory pressures from the Environment Agency and from inshore fisheries and conservation authorities, which frankly seem designed more to strangle what is left of our fishing industry than to enhance it.

So 2026 is an opportunity for the great reset—an opportunity to take back control of our waters properly and to start again. We all know that the previous Government, under the leadership of Theresa May and then Boris Johnson, failed to secure the promised good deal for fishing, in the same way that they failed to secure a good deal for Northern Ireland.

In business, we all know that no deal is better than a bad deal, and that must be the starting position for the negotiation. EU members are desperate to start negotiating as soon as possible, but as the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire North and Moray East (Seamus Logan) rightly identified and as the Minister may know, there is a serious risk that they will use the renegotiation of the energy deal, which ends at the same time, to create unacceptable pressure and leverage for the fishing deal. It is therefore vital that the two elements are decoupled and that we work on the basis that no deal is better than a bad deal. Frankly, that is true for both those renegotiations, but they must not be linked, otherwise we will end up with a bad deal. I urge the Minister and the Government to start from that position.

[Torcuil Crichton]

I fear that the hon. Gentleman and his party might be targeting the wrong people when they blame the EU for the lack of fishing in British waters, because half of England’s fishing quota is ultimately owned by Dutch, Icelandic and Spanish interests. The problem is not access to waters; the problem is the concentration of ownership of the quota we already have. The way to revive communities, such as those in his constituency and Great Yarmouth, with which we have historical herring fishing connections, is to redistribute that quota and to make sure that the quota we have—that additional quota—is given to fragile fishing communities. It is about not keeping foreigners out, but making sure that the wealth of the seas is distributed fairly.

[Richard Tice]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that interesting intervention. The key to securing any distribution is having the quotas; then we can talk about distribution—and, yes, that can take time. But I repeat that no deal is better than a bad deal. If we allow ourselves to go into the negotiation on the basis that we must do a deal, we will end up with a bad deal. We have been there; we can do so much better. This is a great opportunity, so let us grasp it.

15:03

[Caroline Voaden (South Devon) (LD)]

It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Efford, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth (Rupert Lowe) on securing the debate.

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on a crucial issue for my constituency. South Devon is the home of Brixham fishing port, which is the most valuable port in England and Wales in terms of catch landed. I hesitate to say my next line, because I was going to say that the history of Brixham’s fishing industry goes back more than 1,000 years, but we will not go quite that far back or have another history lesson on Napoleon and Nelson.

In the late 18th century, the fishing industry boomed when trawling was introduced as a method of catching fish, and Brixham is still a vibrant harbour today. Last year, it recorded an impressive £60 million in fish sales. It deals with some of the finest catches available, landing premium species such as cuttlefish, plaice, sole and monkfish. Such species are highly valued not only by UK buyers but by European markets.

Although Brixham has much to be proud of, the community is facing profound challenges, many of which have been exacerbated by our withdrawal from the European Union. Despite the promises that some hon. Members present made during the referendum campaign—promises of greater control, increased quotas and a more prosperous future—too many of our fishers now find themselves in a precarious position, and the reality is that the south-west’s fishing industry has not seen the same benefits from quota uplifts as fishing industries in other regions. That disparity has left many in our local community feeling forgotten and sidelined in the broader national conversation. Although I agree with the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth that our fishing communities need more support and investment, perhaps he and I would approach that in different ways.

Brexit was sold to our fishermen as a golden opportunity, yet the truth is that many fishermen have experienced the complete opposite: instead of gaining more control, they have met a series of hurdles that make their lives harder. The administrative burden associated with exports to the EU remains a significant issue. Around 70% of the catch is exported, predominantly to the EU. They are now facing massive trade barriers, but stable access to EU markets is critical. The sheer cost of additional paperwork has been eye-watering, with fishermen struggling to pass on increased selling prices to their long-standing customers. As a result, they have lost trading relationships, and they find themselves with no choice but to absorb the rising costs.

On top of that, the sheer volume and rate of change at the UK level has added to the confusion and uncertainty. With 43 fisheries management plans in place along with marine protected area management, offshore renewables and new EU regulations, our fishers are left navigating a complex web of policies. Poor implementation and imprecise scientific advice have also led to cuts to total allowable catches, and that threatens the livelihoods of those who depend on fishing. This is not the control that was promised; it is a recipe for frustration and despair.

The reality is that the Government’s handling of post-Brexit fishing policy has been disappointing. Promises made during the referendum campaign have not materialised into tangible benefits for our coastal communities, and fishermen are left feeling betrayed; they face a landscape filled with uncertainty, rather than the bright, sunlit uplands they were promised.

[Melanie Onn]

I intervened on the hon. Lady because I had just written down the words “sunlit uplands”. Would she agree that fishermen around the country have been sold down the river on the basis of empty promises and simple solutions that do not exist? There are hon. Members in this debate offering brinkmanship as a solution, but that will not provide the security that fishing communities deserve.

[Caroline Voaden]

I absolutely agree. Funnily enough, Brixham was quite a Brexit-supporting community. As a proud remainer, I had hesitations about Brixham as part of the constituency at first, but as I tour the constituency, I find it astonishing how many people in the local fishing community openly tell me that they feel betrayed and that they were lied to with promises that could never have been met. We must be honest about the challenges that have arisen and acknowledge that our departure from the EU has not yielded the benefits that were claimed.

Sadly, the hon. Member for Clacton (Nigel Farage), who seems to have strayed quite far from his constituency this week, failed to stand up for the fishing community when he apparently represented it in Brussels—he attended only one of 42 European Parliament Fisheries Committee meetings in three years. Far from the EU gutting the UK fishing industry, the industry did not have a chance of being properly heard during that time, because the hon. Gentleman was not in the room.

As we look towards 2026, we have a responsibility to chart a new course with the renegotiation that prioritises the interests of all our fishing communities. We need a strategy rooted in three essential principles: fair access, sustainable management and economic support for growth in the UK seafood sector.

We would all agree that we need fairer access to our waters. Under the trade and co-operation agreement, we will have a significant opportunity to redefine access to UK waters, although I fear that we are not starting from a strong position, given recent history. Access to EU markets is crucial.

[Richard Tice]

That is the key point; this is the moment for the great reset. We are in agreement: the hon. Lady rightly highlighted that many of the problems arose not from leaving the European Union but from the failures of the previous Government. We are critical of them for negotiating a bad deal and of civil servants for implementing it with unnecessary regulation. Would she agree that this is the opportunity?

[Caroline Voaden]

I agree that we have an opportunity to renegotiate, but I do not think that renegotiation will be successful if we start from the position that the EU is the enemy. We have to go into it with a positive mindset and be willing to co-operate with our closest neighbours if we are going to get any kind of resolution.

[James McMurdock (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Reform)]

On negotiations, everyone would agree that camaraderie and agreeableness where they can be found are good things, but we do not win negotiations with weakness. It is probably more effective to start from a position of strength and be firm and resolute about that, and then to extend kindness, than to start with the over-friendliness that is being suggested, given that we have not had good results in the past. Would the hon. Lady agree that a bit of strength is necessary, as well as the kindness that we all agree on?

[Caroline Voaden]

We in the Liberal Democrats are resolute in our—

[James McMurdock]

Your strength.

[Caroline Voaden]

In our strength, yes, and in our desire to protect the UK fishing industry, but we will do it with kindness.

Access to EU markets is crucial, and restrictions would risk not only livelihoods but the £60 million in revenue that supports hundreds of jobs local to me. While we negotiate with the EU, we must ensure that local small fishermen are prioritised and protected. In Brixham, approximately 80% of the boats are owned by small, family run businesses, and these small enterprises cannot afford lengthy delays or steep tariffs. They are the backbone of our community. We must prioritise their industry and ensure that small-scale fishers benefit, not just the large-scale operators, as was mentioned by the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Torcuil Crichton).

We must have a discussion about visas, which several hon. Members have mentioned. The sustainable management of our marine environment is also important for the health of fish stocks and marine biodiversity.

[Alison Hume (Scarborough and Whitby) (Lab)]

On sustainability, I highlight the work of the Whitby Lobster Hatchery, which has released 25,000 baby lobsters into the ocean. We are Yorkshire, the lobster capital of Europe, and it is really important that we can trade and sell lobsters.

[Caroline Voaden]

I agree that we must do far more to protect the equally important shellfish industry. In my part of the world, we have a budding aquaculture industry of mussels and oysters. They are a good, healthy food, and they capture carbon and improve marine biodiversity. Again, however, the industry has been severely hampered by export red tape and cannot export easily to Europe. It could expand massively if it was given the support required.

On the point raised by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), the water classification rules in England differ from those in Northern Ireland. That was a purely political decision of the previous Government that has nothing to do with the health of the water, and I implore the Minister to look at that. If he would like to have a conversation with me about that, I would be very happy to do so.

Fishermen are the stewards of our marine ecosystem. They know better than anyone how important it is to preserve fish stocks, and the Government and scientists must work with them.

[Anna Gelderd (South East Cornwall) (Lab)]

This debate focuses on the future of fishing, but we also need fisheries that are fit for the future. Does the hon. Member agree that collaboration with our fishing communities, such as those in South East Cornwall, is essential to achieve our shared goals of fish stock recovery and safeguarding a sustainable future for our fishing industry?

[Caroline Voaden]

I absolutely agree that we need collaboration between science and the fishing industry to make sure that we have sustainable fishing stocks and a productive fishing industry that can survive.

The hon. Lady predicted the next part of my speech: the new Labour Government must increase funding for marine research and work with fishers to implement sustainable fishing measures. We need more selective gear, better bycatch policies and fair quotas based on scientific evidence. In the long term, we should aim for gold-plated sustainable fishing practices across the UK that reflect our commitment to environmental sustainability and our understanding that healthy fish stocks are the bedrock of the industry.

[Steff Aquarone (North Norfolk) (LD)]

My hon. Friend mentioned bedrocks. As she may know, the North Norfolk coast is a perfect place for oyster beds. We have a number of flourishing businesses in the sector. I am sure she is also aware that oysters are excellent at sequestering carbon from the atmosphere and can play their own special part in tackling the climate emergency. Does she agree that innovative solutions like this can be beneficial to the future of fishing and to the future of our planet?

[Caroline Voaden]

I completely agree. There are oyster farmers in my constituency who are currently doing battle with the Duchy of Cornwall, which wants to get rid of them. We are trying to ensure that they are allowed to stay. We must also invest in growth for the UK seafood sector. That means investing in modernised port facilities and processing plants to maximise the value of each catch. In Brixham, we have seen tremendous success in recent years, but the industry needs further investment across the UK. That will support ailing coastal communities as well as the fishing industry.

Lastly, we must consider marine spatial squeeze. Fishing grounds, marine protected areas and now renewable offshore energy installations are all competing for the same space, yet the fishing industry is asked merely to consult on plans for new renewables. Why is the industry not consulted at the outset to find suitable locations for offshore wind? Giving them just a few weeks to respond to plans that have already been laid out is insulting and inadequate.

To conclude, as we approach the renegotiations for 2026, we have a unique opportunity to redefine the fishing industry’s future—a future in which ports like Brixham can not only survive but thrive, where fishers are the respected custodians of our seas, and where our coastal communities can prosper as they rightly deserve. I look forward to us working together across the House for the benefit of all our fishing communities.

15:17

[Robbie Moore (Keighley and Ilkley) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Efford. I thank the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth (Rupert Lowe) for securing this really important debate. As an island nation, fish are one of the most valuable resources our country possesses. I echo the comments made by hon. Members throughout this debate in championing our fishermen and our wider fishing sector.

Towns and communities across the coast were built on fishing. Just as the previous Government committed to levelling up across the country, the Opposition remain committed to supporting our coastal communities and the fishing industries they are based on. A major part of this commitment was the announcement in December 2021, when the last Conservative Government allocated £100 million to specifically support the long-term future of our UK fishing sector, supporting job creation and boosting seafood exports to new markets. The last Conservative Administration also began the process of replacing the EU’s common fisheries policy with a new, bespoke framework for UK fisheries. Six fisheries management plans have already been consulted on, covering major species including bass, scallops, lobster and crabs. I would be grateful if the Minister could outline what progress he has made in continuing these efforts and delivering the remaining management plans.

Given the importance of the fishing sector, it was deeply concerning that there was no mention of fishing in the Labour manifesto. I am sure that this was deeply worrying to the industry at large. We are unaware of the Labour Government’s plans, as we get closer to 2026. The Government must get its ambitions and plan in line now as we move towards the 2026 conclusion of the UK-EU trade and co-operation agreement, and we must re-enter negotiations with the EU to provide certainty for the wider sector.

As a report outlined earlier in 2023,

“Since 2021 the UK has completed 3 sets of annual fisheries negotiations as an independent coastal State, including bilaterally with the EU, trilaterally with the EU and Norway, and with coastal States in the North-East Atlantic, and beyond. The conclusion of the latest negotiations means the UK fishing industry will benefit from 665,000 tonnes of fishing opportunities in 2023 worth over £750 million. As a result of quota share uplifts agreed in the TCA, the UK has around 115,000 tonnes more quota in the 2023 negotiations than it would have received with its previous share as an EU Member State.”

The year 2026 is incredibly important. Given that the TCA requires a level of interaction from the Government, will the Minister outline what conversations he and his Department are having? Will he confirm that the Government will not use UK fisheries as a bargaining chip to secure a more favourable energy relationship with the EU, as many Members have mentioned?

It is important to support the entire fishing supply chain. The UK’s coastal waters are an incredible natural resource, but the whole sector must be sufficiently supported to properly exploit them. Domestic fish processing and sales are just as important as our fishing fleet in ensuring we have a robust fishing industry that can strengthen our national food security. I am deeply concerned that the introduction of a raft of new labour and employment reforms may threaten all food processing, including our fishing industry, by making it harder and more expensive for our businesses to carry out their activities.

[Melanie Onn]

It is not a Labour issue that has caused consternation in the fishing sector; it is the implementation of the previous Government’s proposals and plans, which seriously affected distant-water fishermen. We have been left with just one distant water ship operating in the UK, and its catch dropped to less than 6,500 tonnes—a reduction of 70%—under the leadership of the hon. Gentleman’s Government. That gap is being filled by fish from Norway, Iceland and Russia. Does he think that we need improved negotiations with our neighbours, such as Norway, to restore jobs and fish in this country?

[Robbie Moore]

Right now, the current Government have a real opportunity to reset the situation as they go into the negotiations with the European Union. Before 2026, there is an opportunity to provide much more certainty to the fishing fleet. As Opposition Members have said, when going into negotiations it is important to set the bar incredibly high, so that we get the landing pitch right and ensure we get the best result for our UK fishing industry. If that means setting the bar so high that we are unwilling to enter into a deal that is set too early, so be it. At the end of the day, we have to get the right result for the UK fishing industry, because it will be under threat if we do not.

On the concerns I raised about employment law, I would be grateful if the Minister could outline any economic analysis that was undertaken for the Employment Rights Bill, specifically on the fishing sector. I am deeply concerned that the introduction of a raft of new labour reforms will threaten that sector. They will not only hike up employers’ national insurance rates and lower the threshold, but will hike up the minimum wage and introduce day one rights that pile on risk for employers. Concern has been raised with me and other Members that that will put pressure on the fishing industry. That is why it is so important that we get the discussions right at this time.

[Lorraine Beavers (Blackpool North and Fleetwood) (Lab)]

I come from Fleetwood, and our fishing industry was decimated after the cod wars. My husband works in fish processing in my area, and let me tell the hon. Gentleman that Brexit, which was introduced under his party’s leadership, destroyed fish exports from Fleetwood. Every Monday, a van used to come from Peterhead and stop at Fleetwood; we used to fill it up with fish, and it went out to France. That has never happened since we left the European Union. The legislation that the Labour party is bringing in will secure jobs on Fleetwood dock and look after the men who work there. Fish processing is very hard work. It is very cold, and it is a skill—

[Clive Efford (in the Chair)]

Order. This is an intervention, not a speech.

[Robbie Moore]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention, but have to politely disagree, given the concerns that have been raised by businesses and wider industry about the impact that the Employment Rights Bill will have on employers—not only those that want to recruit temporary staff, but those that are directly involved throughout the whole supply chain. Having a farming background, I am well aware how difficult it is for anyone producing food in any primary industry, not least the fishing industry or the farming sector. Can we see the Government’s analysis of the economic impact of the Bill on the food processing sector, and can the Minister tell us his view on the impact it will have on the primary sector? I fear that it is far worse than the Government are saying.

We all want to see fairer access and a fairer deal for our fishermen. Time is of the essence as we move towards 2026. I hope that the Government will aim high in their aspirations to achieve a better deal for our fishermen.

15:25

[The Minister for Food Security and Rural Affairs (Daniel Zeichner)]

It is a special pleasure to serve when you are in the Chair, Mr Efford. I thank all hon. Members for their contributions, and particularly the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth (Rupert Lowe) for securing this debate. I remember that in the last Parliament, a happy band of Members often used to assemble for fisheries debates. I suspect we will see the same people gathering over the months and years ahead, and I look forward to constructive discussions with them.

This is a timely opportunity to talk about the UK’s fishing and seafood industry. It is such an important part of the UK’s food system and I welcome the chance to set out some of my views. I will briefly address some of the points raised by Members from across the Chamber. I listened closely to the hon. Gentleman’s introduction. He is absolutely right about the historic strength of Great Yarmouth’s fishing sector. I know Yarmouth reasonably well, and those were halcyon days. The world has changed for a variety of reasons. I do not necessarily agree with his historical analysis, but it is always important to remember what a great industry it was and—to reflect other contributions—what a great industry it will be again, because we really do have opportunities.

I was delighted to hear interventions from my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes (Melanie Onn) and the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael), the new co-chairs of the all-party parliamentary group on fisheries. I look forward to working with them closely over the months and years ahead. I very much enjoyed the speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Torcuil Crichton), who always speaks powerfully on behalf of his constituents. I listened closely, as always, to the contribution of the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). He is right; I have been talking to all the fisheries organisations over the last few months, and I understand his points on scampi and herring. I also listened closely to the contribution from the hon. Member for Boston and Skegness (Richard Tice), particularly about the European Union. I suspect it will come as no surprise to him that I do not entirely agree with his analysis, but I look forward to continuing the debate. I am afraid that there are probably others I have missed, but I will come back them.

One thing that struck me about all the contributions is the recognition of just how significant the fishing industry is, and not just as a food producer; it is culturally significant to our sense of identity in this country, particularly in the remote coastal communities. As well as having a really important role, fishing is a dangerous and difficult job. We should all be conscious of the risks that fishers face as they go to work. Just last week, those risks were brought home to me when I heard about the difficulties of the Fraserburgh-based vessel, Odyssey. I welcomed the comments from the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire North and Moray East (Seamus Logan) —I visited Fraserburgh and was very impressed by what I saw. Six crew members were rescued from that vessel, which is welcome news to us all. It is a dangerous industry, and we should pay tribute to all those who put their lives at risk to secure our food supply.

To move on to the broader picture of what this Government are trying to achieve, my right hon. and learned Friend the Prime Minister has talked about the missions that will drive the Government, and our fisheries have an important role across several of those priorities—certainly, as I have said, in relation to food security, but also by helping us to protect our marine environment, which is so important. As we have heard, there are often many more jobs onshore, so our fisheries also have a key role in boosting regional economic growth, and in general, better fisheries management will be helpful as we tackle the huge challenge of nature recovery, which is so important for the future of us all.

The motion’s reference to the future of fishing “after 2026” hints at our relationship with the European Union, as hon. Gentlemen have suggested. As a Government, we have been very up front in talking about the need to reset our relationship with the European Union, and of course we will work closely with our near neighbours to identify areas where we can strengthen co-operation to our mutual benefit.

Of course, 2026 is the year when the temporary adjustment period for fisheries access ends, as described in the UK-EU trade and co-operation agreement. During the adjustment period, DEFRA—I pay tribute to my predecessors; they worked hard on this—has successfully concluded four annual negotiations with the EU since 2020. That has shown that we have the ability to build a strong relationship on fisheries matters with the European Union. We have put in place strong foundations on which to take forward future agreements to benefit both our shared fish stocks and our respective industries. Our working relationship with the EU on fisheries matters remains strong. As we are debating here today, DEFRA officials are commencing the fifth set of annual consultations with the EU, in which we will set fishing opportunities for 2025. However, I should point out that although we may be close partners with the EU, the significant difference is that, now, the future of fisheries is not driven by the relationships; we are masters of our own destiny.

[Seamus Logan]

You are describing the new deal that you are going to reach with the European Union, but it does not address the problems to do with freedom of movement and the labour shortages that some of us have mentioned, so will you say something about your plans to deal with those labour shortages through new visa arrangements, please?

[Clive Efford (in the Chair)]

Order. Hon. Members keep referring to “you”. You are speaking through the Chair, so when you say “you”, you mean me. It is a mistake that I have made, but I remind you not to use the word “you” unless addressing the Chair. It is “the hon. Member” or “the Minister”.

[Daniel Zeichner]

I would be delighted if you were to resolve all these issues, Mr Efford, but it falls to me. The hon. Member tempts me into a wider discussion about the reset with the European Union. I will speak carefully and limit my observations today to fisheries, but I will acknowledge that labour matters are a particular challenge for this sector, and there are benefits to be found if we can get a good outcome. The point that I was making is that we are now able to place our own domestic priorities—particularly the environmental, social and economic factors—at the centre of our priorities for UK fisheries.

[Melanie Onn]

Will the Minister ensure that the distant water fleet, which has been very successful in providing jobs and training and supporting the fishing industry, is at the forefront of the negotiations that he mentions?

[Daniel Zeichner]

My hon. Friend raises an important point and allows me to follow up on the points raised by the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Keighley and Ilkley (Robbie Moore), which I have not yet addressed. Yes, of course: the distant fleet has had a challenging time, to put it mildly, so we are well aware of the need to try to achieve a fair balance across all sectors of the UK fishing industry as we look ahead to the negotiations. I can also reassure the shadow Minister on the fisheries management plans, of which we are consulting on a further five. In general, I would say that we are trying to secure a balanced outcome—as I am sure the Government in which he served did—that will benefit all sectors.

The skills issue is very important. We recently set up the UK seafood careers programme, which we hope will begin to help address the long-term challenge of how we boost our domestic workforce. That is very important. Changes to the apprenticeship levy ought to help too.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Daniel Zeichner]

I will take another intervention from my colleague and then go to the other side of the Chamber.

[Melanie Onn]

I am grateful to the Minister for being so generous. The University of Lincoln’s centre of excellence, which will be established in my constituency, will focus on high-need skills in the processing sector, which we have not discussed a great deal, to support people in the local area into high-skilled, well-paid and long-term processing jobs. Will he join me in welcoming that?

[Daniel Zeichner]

I most certainly will. I greatly enjoyed visiting both the University of Lincoln and my hon. Friend’s constituency about a year ago, and I am sure I will be back again soon.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the Minister for his response. The hon. Member for Aberdeenshire North and Moray East (Seamus Logan) referred to the visa issues, and I have a suggestion to help the Minister in his discussions with the Immigration Minister. The poultry and horticulture sectors have already been given seasonal worker status, and the same system would work for fishermen. I hope the Minister does not mind me pressing him on it, but will he please speak to the Immigration Minister? If he can do it for one sector, he can do it for another.

[Daniel Zeichner]

I very much hear what the hon. Gentleman is saying. The visa issues are complicated but important, and there certainly could be opportunities if we can achieve the right outcome.

The Fisheries Act 2020 set the broad outlines of where we will be going, and it and the joint fisheries statement that followed it detail the objectives for a thriving and sustainable fishing industry, which I know we all want to see. Since 2020, the UK has demonstrated its own approach to fisheries and to its role on the international stage. As an international coastal state, our relationship with the EU sits alongside our relationships with other international partners, as well as domestic partners. It is our status as an independent coastal state that gives us the right to negotiate with others in the north-east Atlantic on management measures for mackerel, blue whiting and Atlanto-Scandian herring. Those are important stocks for the UK that sadly have been overfished in recent years because of the lack of proper sharing arrangements between the coastal states. We are pushing for comprehensive quota-sharing arrangements that are in the best interests of stock sustainability and of the UK catching and processing sectors.

As hon. Members will be aware, a full and faithful implementation of the fisheries heading of the trade and co-operation agreement will see access for EU vessels to the UK zone become a matter for annual negotiation, which will sit alongside our annual consultations on catch limits with a range of coastal states and international fora on fishing opportunities. Let me repeat that our ambitions for fisheries are no longer tied to the EU common fisheries policy. We have our own objectives for our own UK fishing industry, and they are central to our priorities and to the thriving and sustainable fishing industry that we want.

As I have already said, the fisheries management plans are a key part of the way in which we intend to take the industry forward. I again pay tribute to the previous Government; they set that process in train and we are pleased to continue it. We are grateful for the support of the fishing sector and wider stakeholders in helping to shape the plans; they are being developed collaboratively with the fishing industry, and I think they are probably being looked at elsewhere around the world as an example of how best to manage the complicated trade-offs in our maritime space. The spokesperson for the Liberal Democrats, the hon. Member for South Devon (Caroline Voaden), raised the spatial squeeze issue. We are very aware of that, and we will come back to the House with proposals in the coming months and years.

The fisheries management plans will play a crucial role in supporting the long-term sustainability of fishing businesses and delivering growth in coastal communities. As I have said, they are internationally recognised as the gold standard in managing fisheries. They protect and, where necessary, set out how to maintain or restore fish stocks to sustainable levels. Progress is being made. We have now published a sixth plan and work is being done to implement actions in the previously published plans. Legislation was recently introduced that will bring into law a number of the fisheries management measures set out in those plans. As I said, we opened consultations on the next five FMPs on 10 October.

Beyond FMPs, we are putting in place a wider set of fisheries management reforms, in line with our domestic priorities as an independent coastal state. They include changes to the way we manage discards, the introduction of remote electronic monitoring, trialling new ways to allocate quota, and the opening of new fisheries, such as for bluefin tuna, which I am sure the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth will welcome. We will of course be looking at all ways to reform and best support all UK fisheries sectors to help our fishing and seafood industries thrive and contribute to economic growth and the nation’s food security.

We are also considering the role of inshore and under-10 metre fisheries, including those in my part of the world—the east of England—and how we can best support that sector. A number of initiatives we are undertaking will benefit those inshore fishers, including the provision of additional quota and new quota trials, which should help the inshore fleet in the long run. We are continuing to engage with the five regional fisheries groups that have been set up for inshore fishers to discuss concerns with policymakers and regulators to help identify problems, contribute to policy development and secure solutions.

In conclusion, the future of UK fisheries will be driven by our domestic agenda. We have domestic frameworks, including the Fisheries Act and joint fisheries statements, and policies such as the fisheries management plans that are part of the improvements we seek to make. For many years, our fisheries management was dictated by the EU common fisheries policy. That is no longer the case. Our relationship with the EU remains important and sits alongside other relationships we hold as an independent coastal state. We will continue to meet our international obligations, including those of the TCA, and the default arrangements for access after 2026 are clear. There are many opportunities ahead for our fishing sector. The Government are committed to making the most of them to secure the industry and ensure that it can best contribute to our country’s food security and economic growth, but this will be driven by our own domestic objectives.

[Clive Efford (in the Chair)]

I call Rupert Lowe to briefly sum up the debate.

15:41

[Rupert Lowe]

First, I apologise for not taking more interventions during my opening speech, but I consulted widely with my constituents and they were keen that I got that message across uninterrupted. Secondly, I make no apology for going back over history. As Churchill said, “The farther you look back, the farther forward you can see.”

I will sum up the various contributions, which I think is my duty. The hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty—

[Torcuil Crichton]

Na h-Eileanan an Iar, but the hon. Member can say the Western Isles.

[Rupert Lowe]

I thank the hon. Member—my Celtic is not great. I thank him for his contribution and agree that we need a complete review of our fishing arrangements now that we have the ability to do that.

The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) made some extremely valuable points, particularly about visas. We have also talked about apprenticeships, which are incredibly important. I run businesses in electrical contracting, and we have a huge apprenticeship scheme. That is something we should be looking at for the fishing industry and the fish processing industry.

The hon. Member for Aberdeenshire North and Moray East (Seamus Logan)—

[Clive Efford (in the Chair)]

Order. This is a brief summing-up of the debate and the hon. Member should use it to get his message across to the Minister, not to respond to all the speakers’ points. Will he sum up briefly?

[Rupert Lowe]

Okay. The other point that I want to make about the debate, which came out quite clearly, is that the British people voted to take back our own sovereignty. That, I am afraid, is an indisputable fact, and it is something we have to respect. The Government’s primary job is to protect the interests of the British people, and it is important that we understand that. My hon. Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness (Richard Tice) made an incredibly important point about over-regulation, which is now rife in all our markets. It has destroyed our stock market, and if we are not careful it will strangle enterprise and damage our industries.

I thank everyone else for their speeches and interventions. I think we can all agree that the way the British fishing industry has been treated by those in these corridors is nothing short of unacceptable. It has been ignored, forgotten and sacrificed. We have let entire coastal communities rot and decay—whole towns decimated, once-thriving economies ruined—because this place did not have the courage to fight for them. It is a shameful legacy that has alienated entire generations up and down our coastline. We are an island nation surrounded by some of the most fertile seas on the planet, yet we are a net importer of fish. Does anything sum up the sheer madness of Britain’s relentless managed decline more than that? The fishermen of Great Yarmouth deserve better, the fishermen of Norfolk deserve better, and the fishermen of every single coastal town and port deserve better.

I will finish with a quote from Aneurin Bevan, which I thought hit the mark. He said:

“This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organising genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time.”

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the future of fishing after 2026.

15:45

Sitting suspended.

Scotland’s Architectural Heritage

Tuesday 5th November 2024 Westminster Hall

15:59

[Torcuil Crichton (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered Government support for Scotland’s architectural heritage.

It is a pleasure to serve again under your chairmanship, Mr Efford.

Given my constituency, Mr Efford, you and the Minister might expect me to use this debate to make an appeal for the continued restoration of Kisimul castle, which is the jewel of Castlebay on the isle of Barra, or to talk about the lottery funded virtues of the restored Lews castle on Stornoway. Worthy as both those projects are, time is short, so I will move directly to my main subject, which is the role that the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and the UK Government could play in responding to what is not a local or Scottish issue but a national and international tragedy: the restoration of Glasgow School of Art’s Mackintosh building. I make a direct appeal to the Minister and to the Government to reach out and help with the complete restoration of the Mack.

It is a full 10 years since fire first broke out at the Mackintosh building, as students prepared for their final degree show. Scotland wept—we all wept—as the news broke and the fire spread through the building, destroying the Mack’s library, which was one of the most famous examples of art nouveau design in the world. The situation was grave, but a £35-million restoration was nearly complete in June 2018 when a second fire ripped through the building, engulfed the whole site and left a burnt-out shell of what should be a grade I listed building—the crowning achievement of Charles Rennie Mackintosh.

Scotland is still grieving and Glasgow is still in trauma over the loss of the Mack. The pall of it still hangs over the city and the tang of burnt timbers could still be smelt on Garnethill when I walked up to the art school last week. I think that is mostly because of the demolition of the neighbouring ABC building, which continues apace. The fire that damaged that building also took with it Charles McNair’s art deco entrance, so that portico has also been lost to the city. Indeed, much of Glasgow’s incredible built heritage is in danger of falling, either to the elements, to neglect, to lack of funding or to simple malicious demolition.

[Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD)]

The hon. Member is making a powerful statement; as the daughter of a woman from Glasgow, I know the importance of Glasgow School of Art. He is talking about longer-term resilience when acts of God, or indeed acts of individuals, happen but organisations or local authorities do not have the funding to respond, as is also true with St Andrews harbour and Largo pier in my constituency. May I support his appeal for direct investment?

[Torcuil Crichton]

I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention and I will say later what is or is not considered an act of God.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The issue means a lot to my constituency, because the plantation brought my brothers and sisters from Scotland to Northern Ireland, and they brought their architecture, culture, history, poetry and music with them.

In Newtownards, the main town in my constituency, the market cross is architecturally similar to those in Edinburgh and Glasgow. The local council spent some money on it. Has the local council spent money on the project that the hon. Gentleman is discussing? Does he agree with the hon. Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain) and I that these pieces of history in Glasgow and Edinburgh—and indeed everywhere—should be preserved for future generations, and that national UK-wide funding is needed to do that?

[Torcuil Crichton]

I heartily agree: the links across the Irish sea between Scotland and Northern Ireland are well known, and the influence of Scottish architecture, as I will go on to demonstrate, is worldwide.

Hon. Members have talked about other stories, but above Sauchiehall Street, wrapped in a white plastic shroud, is the burnt-out shell of the Mack. The site is sealed, like a sarcophagus, against the elements. The art school board, the engineers, the architects and the firefighters have all done their utmost and the walls are still standing, but there is no sign of a phoenix rising from these ashes.

The architectural value of Charles Rennie Mackintosh’s masterpiece is recognised all over the world. It was built in two phases, from 1897 to 1899 and again from 1907 to 1909. There has never been a building like it, whether in Scotland, the UK or the world. It is the inspired design of Charles Rennie Mackintosh. He was only 29 when he started work on it, which is quite humbling. Of course he did not do it on his own and he did not spring from nowhere. Not far from here, in west Kensington, the inspiration for a young Mackintosh can be found in the work of another Scottish architect, James M MacLaren. His towers and delicate spires find an echo in the masterpiece on Garnethill, which contains strands of Japanese design, modernism, art nouveau and sheer genius.

It was by combining three elements—imagination, engineering and art; as good a definition of good architecture as one can get—that the Mack was created. Unlike many of our other monumental buildings, it actually worked. For over a century, the Mackintosh building performed the purpose for which it was designed, combining exquisite craftmanship and design while producing an incredible production line of talent.

I never attended art school, but I was a citizen of Glasgow for many years and I did live next door to the Mack for a time. The second city was my second home, and I have many lifelong friends who are graduates of Glasgow School of Art. As the song goes,

“the art school dance goes on forever”.

The Mack runs through our personal lives as much as it does through the life of the nation.

In my constituency, I have many friends who are alumni of the Mack, such as my good friend Calum Angus Mackay, a photographer, painter and TV producer, who only recently produced a retrospective of 40 years of work since he left the Mack; Roddy Murray, the director of An Lanntair art gallery, ex-Dreamboy, local hero, actor and writer; his cousin, Ishbel Murray, and her brother Kenneth, who are both teachers and fine artists; Maggie Smith, a Harris tweed designer; Kenneth Burns, a landscape painter who has chronicled Glasgow and his native islands; Christine Davidson; and many others. Outwith the islands, there is Andy Scott, the internationally renowned figurative sculpture of the Kelpies, and my friend David Pratt, a photojournalist and war correspondent, who turned his unflinching lens on the flames of the art school as it was consumed a second time.

The impact and influence of the art school has been profound on all our lives—not just on those who were lucky enough to pass through its doors. Its structure is integral to Scotland’s identity and central to the image of brand Scotland we want to portray, and an asset to the UK on the world stage.

[Chris Murray (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. Does he agree that the art nouveau Charles Rennie Mackintosh style speaks to a time when Scotland looked outward at the world? There are examples of that art nouveau Charles Rennie Mackintosh style in Paris in the Musée d’Orsay, and the Japonisme spoke to a Scotland that was looking outward. When we think of the art school in my home city of Glasgow being wrapped in sheets, we should remember that it is part of a group of buildings, including those on Waterloo Street and Carlton Place, that are falling into decay. Scotland is not looking out at the world and preserving its architecture. Does he agree that the new UK Government should step up to protect it, and that the Scottish Government also have a role? It is disappointing that no SNP Members are here to even listen to the debate.

[Torcuil Crichton]

I thank my hon. Friend for the point that Glasgow is a cultural lighthouse and a beacon, although much decayed in present days, as he has noted. Its buildings do speak to the world, and hopefully will again when the Mack is restored.

Winston Churchill said:

“We shape our buildings and afterwards our buildings shape us.”—[Official Report, 28 October 1943; Vol. 393, c. 403.]

The Mack and Glasgow School of Art has certainly done that. It is a 20th century dynamo that has produced some of the most talented British artistic practitioners we have seen. Doctor Who went to Glasgow School of Art in the shape of Peter Capaldi, who is my favourite Doctor. Coincidentally, my good friend Annie Grace, a piper who was also at Glasgow School of Art, is sharing the stage with another Doctor, David Tennant, in the west end production of “Macbeth”. It is not just the previous students we have to think about.

[Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow West) (Lab)]

Having gone to school next door to the Mack, it holds a great place in my heart. I also worked next door to it for a time, so it was rooted in my life when I was growing up. It is incredibly sad to see what has happened to it, not only because of its architecture but because of what it has meant to generations of Glaswegians and of art students who have gone through its doors.

It is also disappointing to see, as my hon. Friend mentioned, the other examples of where we in Glasgow are not looking after our heritage in the way we should. The ABC cinema was also affected by the fire at the Mack, and just today, it was reported that some elements of it, which were meant to be retained, have been skipped, to use the vernacular. It is disappointing that we are in this situation and that Glasgow, which once respected its heritage, now seems to be ignoring it.

[Torcuil Crichton]

I think my hon. Friend was referring to Charles McNair’s portico in the ABC cinema, which has sadly been demolished. She spoke of generations of art students, past and present. It is for the educational experience of future students and those currently undergoing their studies at Glasgow School of Art that we should take cognisance of what is happening. They should not be overlooked.

In the years following the fire and in the absence of the Mack—the beating heart of the school—students were dispersed across the campus estate to workshops and exhibition spaces. That removed them from the concentrated network of experience that makes art education so enriching. It is essential that the building is restored so that generations more artists and students can feel the vibrancy and alchemy of Mackintosh’s masterpiece.

Despite a global outpouring of support and donations after the first fire, the restoration project following the second fire suffered a series of setbacks, and those setbacks only fuel the anger, pain and frustration of all those who love the Mack. A report by the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service published two years ago concluded that the 2018 blaze was so fierce and all-consuming that the cause might never be known.

Earlier this year, the art school, which is frustrated, as is everyone who loves the Mack, initiated an arbitration process with the insurers over what the hon. Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain) might describe as an act of God. It is a complex case and a complex claim. It does not take in the whole insurable cost of the building, but it has been slow and has brought the restoration to a halt until the case is resolved.

In 2023, the art school management also had to abandon its search for an architect to lead the restoration. The meter, of course, is running on that restoration because of a flaw in the procurement process, but thankfully, the GSA board is working on a fresh business case, which will consider the economic and cultural impact of the art school not just on Glasgow but on the rest of Britain and on the world. It will also take into account the pressures of the modern era—the rising cost of living, the pandemic and wars—and the effects they have on the cost of construction and particularly the cost of heritage reconstruction.

I am told that revised costs and completion dates will not be available until early 2025. Leading architects, politicians—such as my good friend Paul Sweeney MSP, formerly of this House—and heritage experts have expressed dismay at the lack of progress. They fear, as do many others who have the best interests of the art school at heart, that the project is faltering. The Mack is a landmark of national importance, and we are all collectively the custodians of it.

[Martin Rhodes (Glasgow North) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend talks about the restoration of the art school. Does he agree that it would be an important impetus to give focus to an area that is so rich in cultural heritage and the arts? The art school is there, but so too, in the vicinity of Sauchiehall Street, are the King’s Theatre, the Pavilion, the Theatre Royal, the Royal Conservatoire, the Glasgow Film Theatre and so on. The restoration of the art school could be the impetus to bring that together and create a much more vibrant area—at the moment it feels a bit neglected.

[Torcuil Crichton]

My hon. Friend echoes the bare bones, or the Z shape, of Glasgow School of Art board’s economic case—that the Glasgow School of Art, and the Mack building, is the anchor for that whole zone of development in Glasgow city centre, because it is such an important landmark, one of national importance, of which we are all collectively the custodians. It should fall on us as a nation to restore the building to its glory. This Government should be willing and ready to engage with the Glasgow School of Art board in that project. It is no less than what Glasgow, Scotland and the legacy of Charles Rennie Mackintosh deserve.

When Notre Dame was consumed by flames, the French Government threw the entire strength of the state into the effort of restoration—whatever it took, whatever it cost. Calling on talents from all over the world, they rebuilt that symbol of the nation in record time. I am not questioning the ability or the experience of the architects and engineers involved in the restoration project in Glasgow, or the commitment of Glasgow School of Art to return the Mack into a working undergraduate school, but I am calling on the UK Government to be ready and willing to help.

Some have argued that the responsibility for restoring Mackintosh’s masterpiece should be taken out of the hands of the arts school and placed in an independent body, such as a specialist board of trustees or an Olympic-style delivery system. There are templates for that that have worked before, but it would need careful consideration and talks between all parties. The aim is the same—everyone has the same destination, and that destination is restoration.

I am not calling on the Department to bigfoot the art school or trample on the duties of the Scottish Government. I am just calling for positive engagement from the UK Government, for them to roll up their sleeves and find a solution for what everyone wants—the restoration of the Mack. It can be done; I am sure it will be done. Evidence for what can be done is not far from us, in the Chamber of the House of Commons. Bombed out in 1941, faithfully restored after the war, it is still working its political alchemy on us all. That is what we want for the Mackintosh building, too—for it to rise from the rubble, to work its artistic magic on students, on Glasgow, on Scotland and the world.

16:18

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Stephanie Peacock)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Efford. I am pleased to respond to this debate on the Government’s behalf. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Torcuil Crichton) on securing it.

The Minister for Creative Industries, Arts and Tourism, my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda and Ogmore (Chris Bryant), would ordinarily have replied to this debate, but unfortunately has another parliamentary engagement. However, I will be sure to reflect the content of this debate to him. I know that it is an issue close to his heart, as his mother studied at Glasgow School of Art. My hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar rightly paid tribute to the many who have studied there and the wider impact that the school has had.

First, I would like to express my great admiration for all those involved in the rebuild and restoration of the Glasgow School of Art’s Mackintosh building after the two terrible fires in 2014 and 2018, and the school’s commitment to a faithful reinstatement of the iconic building. As a pioneer of the modernist style, Mackintosh’s innovative approach to form and function provides an important contribution to the architectural heritage of Glasgow and beyond.

I know the fire and damage to the building captured the hearts of people across Scotland, as well as celebrities such as Peter Capaldi, who spearheaded the appeal for funding. I am also aware that the Scottish Parliament debated this issue in 2019, where the impacts on the local community and businesses were emphasised.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar will be aware, the UK Government committed £10 million to help restore the damaged building following the 2014 fire. Like all of us present, I hope to see it returned to a working art school at the heart of Glasgow’s creative and cultural community.

Heritage is of course a devolved matter, and the Scottish Government have power over their policies and funding in Scotland. Some 25 years on from the devolution settlement introduced by the previous Labour Government, I am proud to support the principles behind devolution to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Nevertheless, this Government and Historic England, our statutory agency for heritage, work closely with Historic Environment Scotland, Cadw in Wales and the Historic Environment division of the Department for Communities in Northern Ireland to support our heritage across the UK. We also work closely with our heritage arm’s length bodies to promote and protect the UK’s diverse and priceless heritage. This is the approach that the UK Government have taken, and will continue to take to support the restoration of the Mackintosh building.

In terms of the existing routes and channels through which funding for heritage in the UK is delivered, DCMS delivers two UK-wide funding programmes—the listed places of worship grant scheme and the memorial grant scheme. They fund heritage in places of worship and charities across the country. Unfortunately, that means that neither of the programmes would be appropriate for the restoration. DCMS’s arm’s length bodies deliver the most significant support for the wider heritage sector, and I encourage my hon. Friend to speak to them in relation to the Glasgow School of Art’s work on rebuilding the Mackintosh building.

First, my hon. Friend may wish to consider an application for funding from the National Lottery Heritage Fund. Since 1994, the fund has awarded more than £970 million of national lottery and other funding to 5,000 projects in Scotland. The Heritage Fund previously provided a grant of £4.7 million in 2005 to the Glasgow School of Art, which saw original features of the building restored and unsympathetic additions removed. The grant also allowed for conservation work on the school’s collections, encouraging visitor access to all its heritage assets. Later, in 2017, it provided a grant of £3.5 million to the restoration of Charles Rennie Mackintosh’s Willow Tea Rooms building at 217 Sauchiehall Street in Glasgow. This year, Glasgow was selected as one of the first 11 priority places to receive a share of £200 million through the Heritage Fund’s heritage places initiative. This began with a grant of £350,000 to Glasgow Life to plan and develop a cultural heritage district on the city’s iconic Sauchiehall Street. Given that, although the decision would be for the Heritage Fund, I hope that my hon. Friend will consider an application.

Secondly, I highlight the National Heritage Memorial Fund as a source of UK-wide heritage funding that may be appropriate in relation to the Mackintosh building. It has historically dedicated funds to save Scottish architectural heritage; notably, this year, it gave a grant of £5.3 million to save Mavisbank House just outside Edinburgh. I encourage my hon. Friend to speak to the fund about the available options. Finally, he may wish to encourage an application to the Architectural Heritage Fund, with which DCMS works closely. It has helped to bring the new Galloway town hall in Dumfries and Galloway into community ownership by providing successive project viability and development grants of between £5,000 and £10,000. This project in particular highlights how we can empower local communities to take ownership of their heritage by bringing neglected historic buildings back into use.

Whether providing funding via our existing grant programmes or through our arm’s length bodies, we want to ensure that people’s access to heritage and other creative industries is not limited by where they live or how much they earn. From the Isles of Scilly to the Western Isles, DCMS is committed to making that ambition a reality. Put simply, it is the ambition of this Government to support organisations and individuals who protect our heritage and encourage access for all. We want to use that heritage to attract tourists from around the world, providing jobs in local communities and boosting growth, and of course we want to see that happen across Scotland and throughout the UK. We know that restoring and maintaining heritage assets of all shapes and sizes is an investment into community and helps to boost the local economy. Ensuring that everyone has access to these assets brings a renewed sense of pride and commitment to the area. As well as creating social cohesion and inclusion in local communities, heritage plays an important role in supporting wellbeing and quality of life.

This debate reminds us of the wealth and value of Scotland’s architectural heritage, including the historic Mackintosh building, and why it is so important to ensure that we all have access to it. Although this is a devolved matter, I have highlighted how this Government and our arm’s length bodies play a vital role in supporting Scotland’s architectural heritage. We are open and willing to facilitate conversations with organisations such as the National Lottery Heritage Fund and the National Heritage Memorial Fund to expedite the restoration of the Mackintosh building, as my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar rightly and passionately outlined. I will relay the contents of this debate and his ask to the Minister for Creative Industries, Arts and Tourism, my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda and Ogmore, and I am sure that he will do everything he can to work with him. As we look to the future, this Government will continue to work with the Scottish Government and all the devolved Administrations to ensure that the UK’s heritage is protected and accessible to all.

Question put and agreed to.

16:25

Sitting suspended.

Police Funding

Tuesday 5th November 2024 Westminster Hall

[Sir Roger Gale in the Chair]

16:30

[Sir Roger Gale (in the Chair)]

Before I call the hon. Member for North Down to move the motion, I inform Members that the Parliamentary Digital Communications Team will be conducting secondary filming during today’s debate.

[Alex Easton (North Down) (Ind)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered funding for policing.

I wish I could present a more optimistic picture of police funding across our United Kingdom to the House. Unfortunately, that is not the case. No discussion on policing should overlook the contributions of Sir Robert Peel, the founding father of modern policing. Although we have made significant progress since the establishment of the Metropolitan Police Service in London in September 1829, there remain critical challenges that we must address and I fear that, without adequate funding, we are in danger of regressing.

The significance of police funding cannot be overstated, particularly when considering the Peelian principles, which emphasise the prevention of crime and the maintenance of public order. The principles remind us that the true measure of policing effectiveness lies not in the physical presence of police officers, but in the absence of crime and disorder. Adequate funding is essential to uphold those ideals and ensure that our police service can effectively serve and protect their communities.

Where do we stand? I will begin with an overview of the United Kingdom, focusing specifically on the Police Service of Northern Ireland. It is with deep gratitude that I represent North Down in this House, though it pains me to acknowledge that my constituency lacks a fully operational, full-time police station open to the public. Not one member of the public can report a crime in a police station in my constituency, because they are not open.

Using Eurostat, we can compare international policing strengths, with England and Wales ranked 29th, Scotland 23rd and Northern Ireland 16th. As of 31 March 2024, our police force stands at 170,500 full-time equivalent police officers. While that marks a 10% increase from 2003, when the Home Office first began its recording of these figures, it still represents a 0.7% decline from the peak numbers of 2010. In Scotland, there are 16,536 full-time equivalent officers, a figure 2% lower than last year and 7% lower than the peak numbers recorded in 2013.

As I come to Northern Ireland, I will pause, as we are in the season of remembrance, and take a moment to honour those across the UK who have made the ultimate sacrifice in police service for us all. I pay tribute to the 300 members of the Royal Irish Constabulary, following on from the Belfast police in 1836, who lost their lives, and the 312 officers of the Royal Ulster Constabulary deservedly awarded the George Cross, along with their 370 gallantry awards and 712 awards for distinguished service. We remember the 16 members of the Police Service of Northern Ireland who have been killed in the line of duty.

It is with deep concern that I must place on record that the Police Service of Northern Ireland has been underfunded since 2010. While the Northern Ireland block grant has increased by nearly 50% since the 2010-11 financial year, reaching approximately £14.2 billion for this financial year, the police budget has unfortunately decreased from £903 million to £892 million. To put that in perspective, funding for health has increased by 89% in Northern Ireland and funding for justice has increased by 8%, while policing has faced a 3% cut. Benjamin Franklin, a founding father of the United States, wisely noted:

“If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.”

In the context of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, accurate planning reveals that there is a significant need for funding, with £166 million required for 2025-26, a further £235 million for 2026-27 and a further £307 million for 2027-28.

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate and on advancing his argument so expertly. When he acknowledges the projected pressures that police will face in the coming years, does he recognise that the Budget made no reference to the McCloud judgment, to the holiday pay issue, to legacy liability or to the recent PSNI data breach, which amounts to £750 million of unfunded pressures that will put even more difficulty on PSNI, the Ministry of Justice and the Northern Ireland Office?

[Alex Easton]

I totally agree with the right hon. Member: what we have does not even touch the amount of funding that the PSNI needs to find, and he raises the most valuable points.

These figures underscore the urgent requirement to address the ongoing issue of structural underfunding. I acknowledge the £37 million in additional security funding allocated from the Budget, as well as the investment in the Paramilitary Crime Taskforce. While those measures are welcome, let me be unequivocal: they do not adequately address the underlying pressures facing our police service in Northern Ireland.

Don Quixote reminds us that the truth of the pudding is in the eating, so let me now present to the House the stark truth of policing in Northern Ireland. Neighbourhood policing is diminishing; response times for non-emergency calls are excessively prolonged; the capacity to investigate crimes has been reduced; inquiry offices are closing and the ability of the police to support partner organisations is compromised.

However, I am supported by listening to policing colleagues on the frontline, committed to proposing solutions alongside dialogue on those challenges. A comprehensive approach to address those issues includes supporting the business case for maximising the Police College’s potential over the next three years, aiming for 7,000 police officers and 2,572 staff by 2028. It is important to note that those figures remain significantly below the Patten commission’s recommendation of 7,500 police officers. The funding required for the initiative is £8 million in year one, £25 million in year two and £47 million in year three.

To put it bluntly, any viable solution must be threefold. First, the monitoring round must address the £37 million funding gap. Secondly, there must be an increase in the budget baseline to establish sustainable funding. Finally, we need approval of the business case to enable police headcounts to recover to previous levels. It is entirely appropriate for the chief constable of the police service to accurately highlight the current position, and he has my unwavering support, along with that of many others.

There is no doubt that the Justice Minister faces a crucial set of questions regarding the adequacy of the current budget allocation in the light of recent crime rates and increased public safety concerns. First, how can the budget be considered sufficient when community safety, recruitment and training—essential components for maintaining public trust and safety—are insufficiently prioritised? The current funding allocation leaves much to be desired, and as a result the PSNI’s ability to effectively serve the community is hindered. Furthermore, the limited resources allocated for community safety directly impact the PSNI’s ability to perform its duties, which raises the urgent need for accountability.

An explanation is required as to why public safety is not being treated as a top priority, especially when the current funding does not reflect that crucial need. Sadly, it appears that the voices of the public, of the police unions, of community leaders and of political parties, all calling for adequate resources, are not being heard sufficiently by either the Ministry of Justice or the Minister. I challenge the Government to be open to a comprehensive review of policing budgets. That is essential to ensure the PSNI’s mandate, but I must be honest and place on record that they have fallen short in that regard.

It is unsustainable to have approximately only 4,500 deployed officers in Northern Ireland. The reality we face is that the PSNI loses around 40 officers each month due to retirements and departures, while the number of graduate officers fails to keep pace with that attrition.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Member on securing this debate. Does he agree that we had the perfect example of insufficient numbers earlier in the year, when the Chief Constable had to apply to Police Scotland to try to get personnel from Scotland to Northern Ireland, because there was a risk of a massive increase in violence and he had insufficient offers to deal with it?

[Alex Easton]

The hon. Member is right: recruitment levels have got so bad that we have had to go to Scotland to get extra police to make up the shortfall in emergency situations, which is not acceptable. Northern Ireland is projected to have fewer than 6,000 officers by 2025, underscoring the need for urgent action. Although I strongly welcome initiatives such as “Right Care, Right Person”, which addresses the current mental health crisis in partnership with health and social care colleagues, we must acknowledge that PSNI officers are often the first and last resort for many individuals in crisis.

Let us consider the broader context of national security. According to “No place to hide: serious and organised crime strategy 2023 to 2028”, the cost of organised crime is estimated at £47 billion. In Northern Ireland, where approximately one third of organised crime groups have links to paramilitary organisations, that is particularly concerning. It is alarming to note that 30% of the PSNI’s investigative organised crime unit is dedicated to tackling those paramilitary gangs. Furthermore, the impact of paramilitarism is widely felt, with 40% of adults and 45% of our young people in Northern Ireland affected by its presence.

In conclusion, adequately resourcing our police across the United Kingdom is essential for maintaining effective law and order, ensuring appropriate enforcement of the law, safeguarding community safety and supporting the overall functions of the justice system. We ask our officers to perform a challenging task, often running towards danger while others move away. They deserve a fair allocation of resources that enhances their ability to serve and protect the United Kingdom effectively. That need is particularly pronounced in Northern Ireland, where the challenges are unique and significant. Together we can work towards ensuring a robust and effective police service, where our police officers are aware of the respect they are rightly held in, not least through the provision of financial resources to match the immense challenges that they face.

[Sir Roger Gale (in the Chair)]

Will those Members wishing to speak please stand up? I want to see who they are. Right—I am going to put a time limit of six minutes on each speech. There are four who certainly want to get in and we need to hit the winding-up speeches at about 5.5 pm.

16:43

[Luke Myer (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for North Down (Alex Easton) on securing this debate. Although his focus is of course on the PSNI, the general issues he raised concerning policing are echoed across the United Kingdom. I hope to raise some of those issues that are affecting my constituents.

Last week in my constituency a fire was started in Marton, shop fronts smashed in Guisborough, a pharmacy broken into and its contents burglarised and staff assaulted. Police officers responded and arrests were made, but those are not individual, isolated incidents—that is a pattern and picture of crime across the country. It is a picture of criminals who feel emboldened and residents who feel unsafe. I am grateful to the Policing Minister for taking the time to meet me to discuss police funding in Cleveland, the area I represent.

I am grateful for the opportunity to raise these issues here as well, because this is what people are dealing with every day. People feel afraid to leave the house; they do not feel safe in their communities, They do not feel confident that when they call the police, the police will come, or that crimes will be investigated when they report them. They do not feel confident that the courts will see justice done, and certainly not timely justice. That is why we need a change.

In my part of the world, we have seen major cuts to our police force. We have lost more than 200 officers net since 2010—a 12% reduction in full-time equivalent officers—and all the while demand has gone up. Our officers work incredibly hard under extraordinary pressure, and although they make arrests, the broader criminal justice system is creaking at the seams. Prosecution rates have fallen over the past decade, victims wait months and even years for cases to come to trial and judges have been advised to delay sentencing because of the lack of prison capacity. The system is in crisis and it has been allowed to get to this point after years of systematic underfunding and a lack of support. That is why investment in our criminal justice system is crucial.

Investment has to come at all four stages of the system. It has to come into our prison estate, and I welcome the £2.3 billion investment announced in the Budget last week to expand our prison capacity and ensure that we have the necessary prison places. Investment needs to go into bringing down the court backlog so that cases are heard in a timely fashion and victims feel that justice will be served.

We need investment in visible community policing again. Residents desperately want a named officer for every community, who understands their village or town, knows the families and the history, and can tackle issues before they escalate. That was the cornerstone of the consent-based model of British policing for decades, and it has been eroded in recent years; it must be restored.

We also need investment in prevention. The previous Labour Government were famously tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime. They provided funding for Sure Start and targeted schemes such as the safer school partnerships and the family intervention projects. That is what the new Labour Government need to do.

When I was in local government, we invested heavily in setting up a specialist team to tackle the exploitation of vulnerable children and young people by organised criminal gangs. It was about getting upstream of the process and making sure that vulnerable children were diverted. That saved the state money in the long term and ensured that those young people had opportunities. This Government need that kind of ambition, and I believe they will have it. We need that investment; we need to make sure that our police have the resources they need to do their jobs; and we need to take back our streets and make them safe again.

16:47

[Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)]

I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate, and I commend the hon. Member for North Down (Alex Easton) for securing his first Westminster Hall debate and for his efforts. I agree with much of what he said. Members will forgive me for continuing to champion the needs of Northern Ireland and highlighting the uplift needed.

The House is well aware that Northern Ireland is running a deficit of an estimated £37 million. The numbers are well below what is safe for policing, and crime is on the increase. It would be remiss of me, as a female MP from Northern Ireland, not to raise the increased attacks on females in Northern Ireland: 42 have been killed in the last eight years, making Northern Ireland the most lethal place in Europe for women.

Drugs, criminality, terrorism and changing crime patterns—especially the rise of cyber-crime—place additional demands on police resources. The recent PSNI-led investigation into Alexander McCartney’s online crimes, which tragically involved hundreds of victims globally, illustrates the massive resources that complex cyber cases require. Traditional crimes are no longer a measure.

Years of tight budgets have left officers facing even greater workloads, but pay has effectively fallen by 25% over the past decade. Low pay and increasing job pressure are driving officers to leave soon after completing training—a costly waste of resources. We have the highest number of officers leaving after their two-year probation. Retention is a major concern in Northern Ireland, but the exodus is not all about money; officers feel demoralised by slow, punitive disciplinary systems and worry about being targeted unfairly. The situation is driving up sickness rates and early retirements due to mental health issues, further straining resources. The PSNI is now grappling with record levels of sick leave and rising medical retirements, with nearly 800 officers off sick on a given day.

There is also the issue of mission creep. As other public services have faced cuts, the police are increasingly called on to fill the gaps, especially with mental health and social care. Officers in Northern Ireland, and across the UK, spend a significant portion of their time in A&E, and the demand from children’s homes is high with calls about children who miss curfew—a task that stretches resources and takes time away from core duties.

What am I getting at? Policing budgets must reflect the wide array of duties that are now attached to policing in Northern Ireland. While there are those in this place—although they are not present today—whose party bemoans the Chief Constable’s ask of the Prime Minister for urgent moneys, I want to say that my hon. Friends and I support him 100%. He does so knowing the crisis point we are at, and because he presides over the crisis. Therefore, I support his asks and trust that the Minister is advocating for such with the Treasury.

There are specific challenges that the Police Service of Northern Ireland faces that differ from those in England and Wales. Unlike police forces in other parts of the UK, the PSNI does not receive funding through a local precept, although we acknowledge that it gets a top-up to help address terrorism threats. Also, unlike its counterparts in England, the PSNI lacks easy access to mutual support from neighbouring forces. When English forces need extra help, they can call on neighbouring teams, which is a very cost-effective and efficient solution. For the PSNI, mutual aid requires extensive planning, which limits flexibility in emergencies, so headcount must reflect that.

Another urgent issue for the PSNI is the compensation bill related to the recent data breach and fines from the Information Commissioner’s Office, which again will deeply impact already stretched budgets. It was bitterly disappointing, but not surprising, that policing in Northern Ireland did not feature in last week’s Budget. UK policing—we accept that this is right across the UK—faces a funding shortfall so deep that it is not just about money and funding now; it is about a thoughtful, strategic funding package. We need to rethink how to resource the police so that they can meet the needs, retain their officers and focus on core responsibilities.

16:53

[Jim Allister (North Antrim) (TUV)]

There is no doubt that policing is in pretty dire straits in Northern Ireland, but it would be a mistake simply to say that it is all the fault of Westminster. Policing has been devolved in Northern Ireland since 2010, and comparing the policing situation today with 2010, it is woefully below the level it was then, in terms of police on the beat and the provision of basic services. We lament the lack of funding, but we must face the fact that the Northern Ireland Executive have not prioritised police funding. As we have heard, when policing was devolved, the budget was £903 million. However, 12 years later it was £892 million—a massive real-terms reduction. That is because the priorities of the Northern Ireland Executive were not issues of policing but other things.

I think it is fair and important to recognise that the failings are not all on this side of the United Kingdom. Yes, there is a deficiency in funding. Yes, it is appalling that in the recent Budget allocation, there was nothing of the £142 million required for the data breach that the PSNI now has to face, and nothing for other special needs in that regard. But we need to keep the perspective right. There is a responsibility on the Northern Ireland Executive to put their priorities in order, and policing should be a priority.

I have a large, essentially rural constituency. In the towns of Ballymoney and Ballycastle and all the villages around it, on any given night we are lucky if there is one patrol car. We are lucky if, on any given day, there are two or perhaps three community officers, covering a vast area. There is a huge deficiency and need in that regard. Let me say this to the Government. They found for the Northern Ireland Office extra money that essentially—in large measure—will be going to the Finucane inquiry. Once again, we are going to pour tens of millions of pounds into an insatiable inquiry for a family which has never been capable of being satisfied and which previously rejected the very inquiry that it is now getting. It would be a far more prudent and appropriate use of funding to put the money where it is needed—and where it is needed is in the coffers of the PSNI.

When we had the Patten report way back in 1999, there was great hype, and hope and expectation that policing was going to be wonderfully transformed. I think most people in Northern Ireland today would gladly go back to the real, effective policing of the RUC, rather than having the depleted policing of the PSNI. We were promised a 7,500 complement of police officers; we are 1,200 and more below that today. Patten has not been a success. It has not been delivered as promised, and policing in Northern Ireland has effectively gone from bad to worse. We now have a situation in which a hapless Chief Constable has to, almost cap in hand, come to the Prime Minister and say, “Can you help us?” For that, of course, he is criticised by the local Minister who has failed the police in getting the funding that is needed—namely, the Justice Minister.

I am anxious to promote in this House the genuine needs of policing within the context of recognising that there also has to be responsibility with the Northern Ireland Executive. Perhaps the priorities of the Northern Ireland Executive are not uninfluenced by the fact that we have the bizarre situation in which the PSNI is accountable to a Northern Ireland Policing Board upon which sits a convicted terrorist from an organisation that murdered and butchered policemen for years. That convicted terrorist of course is Gerry Kelly, who came to this city and bombed the Old Bailey. He sits in lordship and control over the PSNI. That is not a healthy situation, and it is not a healthy control situation in terms of the PSNI, so when Patten and Westminster produced that, they did not do policing any favours.

It is important, now, to get adequate funding into policing and to ensure, if and when adequate funding is supplied, that the Stormont Executive spend it. We have had so many occasions when, under the Barnett consequentials, money has been given, for example for childcare and other things, and spent on something else. There needs to be the proper spend of the money for the purposes for which it is given.

16:59

[Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. I congratulate my colleague the hon. Member for North Down (Alex Easton) on bringing forward this debate. It is interesting to note that its title on the Order Paper is “Funding for policing”. It is disappointing, I am sure, for the sponsor to see the lack of Members from Government, official Opposition or other parties who have come to Westminster Hall today to debate the funding of policing across the United Kingdom. This was not going to be a debate that focused solely on the PSNI, although that is where it has gone because of the Northern Ireland influence here. That is testament to Northern Ireland’s MPs, in regard to how we value the service and the dedication of our police service across the United Kingdom. In the interests of this debate—I note that it is the Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the hon. Member for Putney (Fleur Anderson), who will respond on the funding for policing—I, like others, will focus my contributions on the PSNI.

As other speakers have pointed out, the 6,300 officers that we currently have represent an unsustainable level. As the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister) said, in Patten that was envisioned to be 7,500, and our current Chief Constable has said that he would expect to have a force of 8,500 to do the job that he wants to do, given the size of our population and the level of need in Northern Ireland. We are currently asking our police service and our Chief Constable to do more with less; when it comes to the security and reassurance of the people of Northern Ireland, that is a recipe for disaster.

The hon. Member for Upper Bann (Carla Lockhart) has indicated that position, with women on our local media this morning saying that they now feel unsafe walking the streets of Northern Ireland. In this day and age in any part of this United Kingdom, it is a shame and a disgrace that we are now in a situation where women feel unsafe walking the streets. This should be a first-world country, with a first-world police service looking after the people, who deserve and expect that. By the end of this year, it is expected that our police numbers will have fallen to 6,000 in Northern Ireland—as the hon. Member for North Down has indicated, that leaves about 4,500 who will actually be deployed—and the purpose of this debate is to look at what more can be done to address the further challenges that our Chief Constable and the Northern Ireland Policing Board face in delivering their service.

As has been referenced here—although I do not think this is widely understood—policing in Northern Ireland got to the critical point at which our Chief Constable took it upon himself to write to the Prime Minister to seek direct intervention, over the heads of the Justice Minister, the Policing Board and the Northern Ireland Assembly. Such was the situation he felt so desperate about—protecting not just the backs of his own officers, but the people of Northern Ireland—that he felt that that was the direction he needed to take. How was he rewarded? With a letter of chastisement from the permanent secretary of the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland; our Chief Constable was so dedicated to service and delivery, but he received that level of put-down—and it was not corrected or even challenged by the Justice Minister, who should have stepped in to support the Chief Constable, the police and the Policing Board.

The challenges of the PSNI have been mentioned. Certain parts have not been perfect, including the data breach compensation claim and the additional pressures from the holiday pay claim, but it is concerning that yesterday in the Northern Ireland Assembly—on the back of the Budget announced in this place—the Finance Minister said that His Majesty’s Treasury is insisting that those payments come out of the Stormont budget.

It has been said that we have a challenged and declining policing budget while health funding has increased by 60% to 80% over the last 13 years. That is an unfair comparison. Any financial expert from the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council will say that health needs 6% year on year simply to stand still; I think that is a recognised statistic, so it is not fair to compare what health has received with what policing has not. As the hon. Member for North Down indicated, justice has received additional moneys, and—given the way that the structures in Northern Ireland work—it should be up to the Justice Minister how that works out.

I pay tribute to our police personnel in Northern Ireland for the continued work they do in challenging situations, day after day, night after night, and in the face of a lot of criticism. I recognise the comments from the hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Luke Myer) about going back to having a named, constituency, locally-recognised police officer. The majority of police officers want to be in that situation and we need to think about how we can support them in doing so. I also pay tribute to the Police Federation for Northern Ireland—particularly Liam Kelly—and how it has represented its officers and fought for them at every opportunity; I hope that the rest of this House does likewise.

[Sir Roger Gale (in the Chair)]

Order. Mr Shannon, I appreciate that you have been detained elsewhere with other business in the House but we are playing “beat the clock”, so I will not be able to call you. Ordinarily, because you arrived so late, I would not be able to allow you to intervene, but under these circumstances, if you choose to intervene on one of the Front-Bench spokesmen, I will allow you to do so.

17:05

[Clive Jones (Wokingham) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. I congratulate the hon. Member for North Down (Alex Easton) on securing this debate. Everyone deserves to feel safe in their own home, walking down their own streets, on public transport and in their town centres, but for far too many people in the UK today, that is simply not reality.

The previous Conservative Government failed to keep our community safe from crime; their unnecessary cuts left our police forces overstretched, under-resourced and unable to focus on the crimes that affect our communities the most. Every day, 6,000 cases are closed by the police across England and Wales without a suspect ever having been identified. Meanwhile, just 6% of crimes reported to the police result in a suspect being charged, and three in four burglaries and car thefts go unsolved. From 2015, the Conservative Government slashed the number of police community support officers by more than 4,500.

My constituency of Wokingham is served by Thames Valley police force—the largest non-Metropolitan force in England and Wales—which does incredible work and is led selflessly by officers and civilian staff.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Thank you, Sir Roger, for giving me the chance to intervene; I appreciate it very much. I wanted to come along and support my friend, the hon. Member for North Down (Alex Easton), because the same police force, chief superintendents, constables, sergeants and police cars that service his area also service mine. The clear issues for us are antisocial behaviour, under-age drug use, vandalism, petty crime and paramilitaries. Does the hon. Member for Wokingham (Clive Jones) agree that community officers’ knowledge of their local areas is so important in order to ensure that the communities can gather behind them and that forces can thereby address local crime?

[Clive Jones]

I absolutely agree that local police officers and PCSOs are invaluable. If they have a connection with the local community, they do a very good job.

Thames Valley police protect 2.5 million people and cover 196 miles of motorway, and I am proud of the manner in which they serve our community. It is, however, a disgrace that their hard work is severely let down by the previous Government’s reckless mismanagement of police forces. In the Thames Valley, we have only 198 police officers per 100,000 people. That is below the national average of 245. Only 88.1% of police officers in our area are in frontline roles, which is below the national average of 90.3%, and we only have seven special constables per 100,000 people, which is also below the national average of 10 per 100,000; that is a complete failure. Thames Valley police force needs more resources.

The Conservative party’s dereliction of duty is evident in the consequences of the previous Government’s under-investment. Between October 2021 and September 2024, retail crime surged by 35.4%, from 10,306 cases to a massive 18,208 cases. Robberies have also surged, with a shocking 143% increase in robbery from businesses. In fact, within the Bracknell and Wokingham area, robbery from business property has risen by the higher figure of 147.4%. Whether at the national level or the local level, our communities have been failed.

I recognise that the Government have inherited a mess, but they must urgently restore the proper community policing that people deserve. We must get more police officers out on to the street, and that should be funded by scrapping the wasteful, expensive police and crime commissioner experiment, and investing the savings in frontline policing instead. We also need to address the dramatic cut in the number of PCSOs, and free up existing officers’ time so they can focus on local policing. That is why the Liberal Democrats are calling for a new national online crime agency to take over the policing of crimes like online fraud and abuse, leaving local forces more time to tackle burglaries and other neighbourhood crimes.

For years, the previous Conservative Government failed to keep our communities safe from crime, but the new Government have said that they will act, so I ask the Minister how and when the new Government will deliver their manifesto promise of recruiting more neighbourhood officers. The details should be brought forward urgently.

17:12

[Paul Holmes (Hamble Valley) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger.

I congratulate the hon. Member for North Down (Alex Easton) on securing this debate. I believe it is his first Westminster Hall debate—I hope the first of many. I know that policing in Northern Ireland is a matter on which he has long campaigned hard and I enjoyed hearing the historical facts in his opening speech. I am also grateful to other hon. Members for their contributions this afternoon; several were similar, but they were all passionate.

Clearly, it is for the operationally independent Police Service of Northern Ireland to make decisions about day-to-day policing in Northern Ireland, and it is for the Northern Ireland Executive—who I am proud the Conservative Government helped to restore earlier this year—to decide how to allocate resources. Their being independent of this place, however, does not mean that we cannot harbour or express views about processes or individual decisions, or recognise the challenges of policing in Northern Ireland.

We note the commitment in the Budget last week of £8 million for the Executive’s programme on paramilitarism and organised crime, which builds on the funding put in place by the Conservative Government to tackle that issue and strengthen community resilience in Northern Ireland. The Conservative Government also made additional contributions to the PSNI through additional security funding, including £31.2 million for the financial year 2023-24.

The new Government had an explicit commitment in their manifesto to help improve public services in Northern Ireland. However, I am worried by the comments from Jon Boutcher, Chief Constable of the PSNI, who has said that the programme for government does not reflect the pressures that the PSNI is under, with policing numbers at an all-time low and further resources needed. I would be grateful to the Minister if she would confirm to the House what further discussions she intends to have over the coming weeks and months with her counterparts in Northern Ireland about policing needs. What steps will the Government take to support the Executive and PSNI to increase police numbers to the level envisaged in the New Decade, New Approach agreement, and to hit key milestones on the way there, as this seems to be a common theme in speeches in this House?

According to the PSNI, all policing districts experienced a lower level of crime in the past 12 months. There were also fewer shootings, bombings and paramilitary-style attacks during the same period. However, just one of those appalling incidents is too many, and I also join the hon. Member for North Down in paying tribute to the work of PSNI and all staff and police officers in Northern Ireland, and our security services, for the daily job they do.

It is important that the new Government act in a way that supports the Northern Ireland Executive and law enforcement to help lock in a positive trajectory and address areas where progress is more challenging. There can be no return to the violence of the past and, as I say, I commend the invaluable work of the PSNI, which faces security threats every day and does an amazing job.

Northern Ireland has a tremendous peace dividend of its own with the progress that has come off the back of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. With confusing messaging and short-term measures, this issue is not off to a great start for the Government. Whether it is the city deals that were paused and started again through a U-turn or the police funding levels, the Government must work with the Executive on an equal footing. I fear, judging by the announcements since this Government have taken over, that the Executive and Ministers within that Executive are not having solid and constructive messaging from this Government, with U-turns and various policies changed at the last minute. I hope the Minister will reassure the House that in future there will be a much more constructive relationship with the Executive when it comes to the direct funding of various Northern Ireland matters and governance.

As I said, the manner in which the Government have handled issues in relation to Northern Ireland so far has been rather abrupt. That needs to change, and it must become more stable and consultative. We all want to see a safer, more prosperous Northern Ireland, with community cohesion moving only in the right direction and young people looking to a better future—everybody in this House absolutely wants that to happen; but we must see commitments made at the last general election delivered for the people of Northern Ireland, and see policing put at the forefront. That is not just by the UK Government but, as the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members have said, a stronger approach taken by the Executive itself. That time has come, and it is time that the drawbacks and funding issues that have been outlined are sorted out, so that we can increase police numbers, ensure that crime continues to come down and ensure that policing is at the heart of all communities, as the hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Luke Myer) said. He cleverly outlined policing issues in his constituency, which he is absolutely right to do in this one United Kingdom. The issues in his constituency are the same as the issues we heard in constituencies in Northern Ireland, and I pay tribute to him for turning up to this debate. Like him, I thought that it was a debate on policing throughout the United Kingdom. It should have been, but it is just that today we are addressing predominantly Northern Ireland issues with PSNI.

The Conservative party will always back Northern Ireland—it has an integral place in our Union—and the aspirations and hopes of its people. I know the Minister shares that commitment, and I look forward to hearing her answer some of the questions by hon. Members from all around the Chamber, particularly when it comes to funding for PSNI going forward, so that it can make the decisions it knows it needs to make to ensure that policy is at the forefront of domestic politics in Northern Ireland and crime continues to come down.

17:18

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Fleur Anderson)]

It is a great pleasure to respond to this debate and serve under your chairship, Sir Roger. I congratulate the hon. Member for North Down (Alex Easton) on securing this Westminster Hall debate—hopefully the first of many—on such an important and timely topic. I welcome comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Luke Myer), the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister), the shadow Minister the hon. Member for Hamble Valley (Paul Holmes), and the hon. Members for Upper Bann (Carla Lockhart), for South Antrim (Robin Swann) and for Wokingham (Clive Jones).

It is important to be talking about safety—safety on our streets and in our homes, workplaces and schools. Wherever we are, everyone deserves to feel safe, and that is vital. Equality of safety goes alongside all the other equalities that we want to see. This Government are supporting frontline policing levels across the country, putting us on track to start to deliver on the pledge to boost visible neighbourhood policing. It is a key mission of this Labour Government to take back our streets and have safer streets. That is also a key mission in the Northern Ireland Executive’s draft programme for government, and we can agree on that whatever party we represent.

I pay tribute to the brave men and women who serve in the PSNI and work tirelessly to keep the people of Northern Ireland safe. The commitment and bravery of the PSNI is shown every day; however, two examples vividly demonstrate its commitment and dedication. The terrible attack on Detective Chief Inspector John Caldwell last year reminded us that there is still a small minority in Northern Ireland who wish to cause harm to those who serve. More recently, officers sustained serious injuries while ensuring the safety of others during the violent disorder this summer.

In early August, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and I met with PSNI and Northern Ireland Fire & Rescue Service members in Belfast during that week of protest to offer our thanks in person. We heard many stories of bravery. The Prime Minister also met injured PSNI officers. It was clear to us all that the response of PSNI to the disorder was a testament to their dedication and ability to deliver safety and security in Northern Ireland. We owe all those who serve in the PSNI our gratitude. The Government will continue to work alongside the Northern Ireland Executive to support the PSNI. In response to the shadow Minister’s question, we will continue to have conversations with the Chief Constable and other members of the PSNI as a matter of course.

In recognition of the unique security situation in Northern Ireland, the UK Government make additional contributions to the PSNI through additional security funding, as has been mentioned. As we announced in the spending review last week, we have increased that funding for the PSNI for the financial year 2025-26. It will be provided with £37.8 million in additional security funding. It was previously provided with £32 million a year, and that amount had been in place since 2015-16. The increased funding that this Government have provided will give the PSNI the resources it needs to tackle the threat posed by Northern Ireland-related terrorism in Northern Ireland and allow it to continue to keep people safe.

The Government recognise the difficult financial position that the PSNI faces. However, policing is largely a devolved matter in Northern Ireland, and the PSNI’s main budget is allocated by the Northern Ireland Department of Justice.

[Jim Shannon]

The hon. Member for North Down (Alex Easton) and I had a particularly difficult time about a year and a half ago. There were special circumstances—paramilitaries were feuding—so funding for our area had to be above and beyond. The police service was able to give officers more overtime, but it was only able to do so because it had the resources. Without the extra resources and extra money that was provided due to the special circumstances, the police would be unable to police.

[Fleur Anderson]

The need for more funding is understood, which is why I was glad that more money was delivered to Northern Ireland in last week’s Budget. It was good news for Northern Ireland. The Budget delivered a record £18.2 billion for the Northern Ireland Executive for 2025-26—the largest settlement in real terms in the history of devolution. That includes a £1.5 billion top-up through Barnett consequentials for 2025-26: £1.2 billion for day-to-day spending and £270 million for capital investment. What will be done with that money? It is for the Executive to set a budget for all Northern Ireland Departments and for the Department of Justice to allocate funding to the PSNI. How that funding is used is an operational matter for the PSNI and the Chief Constable.

The PSNI estate—police stations—was raised by the hon. Member for North Down. The allocation of that money and questions of whether police stations are open or not are entirely operational matters for the Chief Constable, who is accountable to the Northern Ireland Policing Board.

Paramilitarism has been mentioned. The effort to tackle paramilitarism is led by the Northern Ireland Executive’s “Tackling Paramilitary Activity, Criminality and Organised Crime” programme, which was established after the “Fresh Start” agreement. The programme is working to tackle the presence of paramilitaries through evidence-based early interventions, targeted law enforcement measures and initiatives that provide direct support to help build safer communities who are resilient to paramilitarism. The UK Government provide 50% of the funding—£8 million a year—for the cross-Executive programme for tackling paramilitary activity and organised crime. As was announced in the spending review, that has been secured through to March 2026.

One strand of this work is the Paramilitary Crime Task Force, the PCTF, which is a multi-agency taskforce including officers from the PSNI, the National Crime Agency and His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. Over the period from April 2023 to March 2024, the PCTF made 107 disruptions and 83 arrests, charged and reported 115 people and conducted 175 searches. The PCTF seized drugs with a street value of more than £1.3 million and illicit tobacco with a street value of more than £2.8 million, along with 41 firearms and weapons, of which eight were explosive devices.

The Executive programme for tackling paramilitary activity and organised crime has provided PSNI with £5.6 million in 2023-24, and the same for 2024-25. PSNI police numbers have been raised several times—rightly so. A well-staffed and resourced PSNI is vital to the success and stability of Northern Ireland. I am aware that the PSNI restarted recruitment earlier this year, and that the Chief Constable has been speaking to the Department of Justice to discuss funding to allow that to continue. Recruitment and retention are absolutely vital to delivering effective policing. Policing in Northern Ireland, apart from national security, is a devolved matter, and police numbers are a matter for the Department of Justice and the Chief Constable. As of 1 October 2024, PSNI has 6,303 full-time officers. I am aware that the Chief Constable aims to lift officer numbers to 7,000 within three years. That will be challenging, but I understand that he is speaking to the Department of Justice about it and we will continue to support him.

The hon. Member for North Down will be aware of the Executive’s draft programme for government, which was published in September. I note the programme’s recognition that PSNI officer numbers are low, and welcome the Executive’s commitment to grow police officer numbers to 7,500 in line with New Decade, New Approach. As I have said, last week’s Budget delivered the largest settlement in real terms in the history of devolution, including that £1.5 billion top-up through the Barnett consequentials. The money is not ringfenced, and the Northern Ireland Department of Finance will work with Executive Departments to allocate it based on budget pressures.

I welcome the fact that the data breach was raised by the right hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson). In response to the August 2023 PSNI data breach, the PSNI worked closely with the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland to fully understand the cost implications of its response to the very serious incident. The UK Government granted an initial, non-repayable reserve claim of £15 million after the data breach. That was communicated to the Department of Finance and intended to assist in addressing the challenges to the PSNI budget caused by the data breach. In February 2024, however, the Department of Finance confirmed that the funding was not required and PSNI costs could be absorbed within the NI budget. No additional funding was required from the UK Government, but we continue to work together in ways like that to ensure that policing can continue.

[Gavin Robinson]

Would the Minister accept that that was in relation to the likely fine from the Information Commissioner’s Office? The fine was greatly reduced, but there is no cover or resource allocation for the level of compensation that will be due to the thousands of officers that were involved. That figure is at £240 million.

[Fleur Anderson]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for raising that ongoing issue, but I will need to conclude now. I agree with the hon. Member for Upper Bann (Carla Lockhart) that ending violence against women and girls must be a priority in policing. Altogether, it has been demonstrated that the positive steps Northern Ireland has taken to become a more peaceful and prosperous place are ongoing, and reflect the commitment of communities from across Northern Ireland to build a safer place to live and work. The work of the PSNI, alongside other security partners, is a crucial component in the delivery of a safer Northern Ireland. I am delighted that the Government have been able to increase the additional security funding provided to PSNI to allow it to continue to do that.

17:29

[Alex Easton]

I want to thank all hon. Members, including the shadow Minister and the Minister, for being very supportive today and outlining the different issues across the country where there is a lack of policing. I hope that the Members from Northern Ireland have highlighted the serious issues we have. We are more than 1,000 police officers down, and the number of officers is not growing. This debate will hopefully put pressure on the Northern Ireland Executive, the Department of Justice and the Minister of Justice to come up trumps and deliver more policing for our overstretched PSNI, which we love and support. They deserve this recognition of our strength behind them.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered funding for policing.

17:30

Sitting adjourned.