Grand Committee
Arrangement of Business
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Viscount Stansgate) (Lab)
My Lords, if there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting—let us face it, that is extremely unlikely—the Committee will adjourn as soon as the Division Bells ring and resume after 10 minutes.
Data Protection and Digital Information Bill
Wednesday 24th April 2024
(7 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Data Protection and Digital Information Bill 2022-23 View all Data Protection and Digital Information Bill 2022-23 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 30-VII Seventh marshalled list for Grand Committee - (23 Apr 2024)
Baroness Sherlock
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would make it a requirement for the Secretary of State to issue a code of practice in connection with the use of account information notices.
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
My Lords, in moving Amendment 225, I will speak to the other amendments in this group. They cover two issues: first, the code of practice, which features in Part 2 of new Schedule 3B, inserted by the Bill into the Social Security Administration Act 1992. Paragraph 6(1) of new Schedule 3B says:
“The Secretary of State may issue a code of practice in connection with account information notices”.
Amendment 225 would change “may” to “must”. Paragraph 6(2) mentions some matters that a code “may” include and Amendment 226 would change that “may” to “must”.
Amendment 227 would ensure that a code of practice includes the criteria to be used by the Secretary of State in determining whether to issue account information notices—I will come back to criteria shortly. Amendment 230 would require the Government to consult on the draft code of conduct with consultees including the Social Security Advisory Committee and organisations that would have to comply with account information notices. Amendment 231 would require the code of practice and any revisions to it to be approved by both Houses of Parliament. The Secretary of State would still be able to withdraw a code of practice, but the ability to issue notices would lapse if no code were in force. Amendments 228, 229 and 232 are consequential.
The other matter covered in this group is how the Government report to Parliament on these notices. Amendment 233 amends new Schedule 3B to provide for annual reporting to Parliament on the use of account information notices. As well as requiring the provision of statistics around the use of such notices during the previous financial year, the amendment would compel the Secretary of State to outline his or her views on the proportionality and effectiveness of notices. I hope that the need for these amendments is self-evident. Ministers are proposing to take new powers of astonishing breadth, which will involve the ability to search the bank accounts of tens of millions of our citizens, most of whom will have done nothing wrong. There is still very little detail about how these powers could be, or will be, used.
I will address two particular sets of issues. The first is criteria. Paragraph 2 of new Schedule 3B explains that banks have to return information about matching accounts. As well as specifying the identity of the account holders, they have to meet certain risk criteria. The Bill, the Explanatory Memorandum and briefings always talk in terms of examples of those criteria, usually around capital limits or time abroad. But my understanding, which may be wrong—I invite the Minister to correct me if I am—is that the criteria could be anything related to eligibility for the benefits in question.
For example, the eligibility for some benefits includes being a single parent. Paragraph 2(2)(a) of new Schedule 3B says that an account information notice
“may require information relating to a person who holds a matching account even if the person does not claim a relevant benefit”.
On our last day in Committee, we established that that directly related to appointees, but that made me wonder whether it could apply to anybody else. For example, we also established that a notice could cover a joint account where one of the holders is the person to whom the benefit is paid and the other is not. Would this power allow DWP to ask banks to search for any accounts linked to any single parent and to examine those accounts for evidence that they and the other holder of a joint account might be living together? Would these powers allow DWP to devise any criteria designed to identify whether a claimant was living with another adult? To be clear, I am not asking whether it intends to do that or whether it knows how to do that. I am just asking whether it would be permissible. Is this a category of thing that it could do under the powers in the Bill?
Related to that, could DWP issue notices to a bank other than that into which the benefit is paid? Again, we have heard that the intention is to go only to the bank into which the benefit is paid, but I want to know specifically: does this Bill gives DWP the power to do that or would it need additional primary legislation to do it?
Secondly, the Bill does not say that notices can be given only to banks. It says that they can be given only to a “person of prescribed description”. The Information Commissioner said:
“I have been unable to identify where such persons are prescribed and the provision itself is silent on the matter”.
It is therefore unclear which organisations will be in scope of the power or how this will be determined. Can the Minister tell us any more about who will be covered and how that will be determined? Who could be subject to a notice? A bank or a building society could be, clearly, but could a credit union, a Christmas club savings scheme or any other financial body?
Paragraph 58 of the impact assessment on this part of the Bill says:
“This measure is drafted broadly to ensure it is future-proofed against future changes and innovation, particularly in the financial services sector, i.e. in Fintech and Crypto, and enable DWP to apply this measure to non-financial organisations in future if it is deemed appropriate and proportionate”.
Can the Minister give the Committee an example of a non-financial organisation that could be appropriate? Specifically, could this apply to, for example, phone companies? Given the open-ended nature of the powers being taken, one way for Ministers to give reassurance to both the Committee and the wider public would be to ensure that DWP is constrained by a clear and transparent code of practice over which Parliament has oversight and that it reports to Parliament on the way it is using these powers. If the Minister does not like the approach in this amendment, perhaps he could offer the Committee other forms of assurance in this area. I beg to move.
Lord Anderson of Ipswich (CB)
My Lords, I apologise to the Committee that duties elsewhere in the House prevented me from attending the last two debates on Monday and so from speaking to the amendments that I had tabled and signed. However, I have read the Official Report with care.
I cannot pretend to be a data protection nerd, or even a social security nerd, like some speakers in those debates, but I hope that I pass muster as a surveillance nerd, having written for the Home Secretary two of the reports that informed the Investigatory Powers Act 2016 and, more recently, a report that informed the Investigatory Powers (Amendment) Bill, which I see is to be given Royal Assent tomorrow.
I support all the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, in this group. Of course there must be a code of practice. Of course it must be consulted on and scrutinised. I would add that that of course we could not contemplate passing this schedule into law until we have seen and studied it. An annual report of the sort that accompanies the reasonable suspicion power to issue financial institution notices, exercised by HMRC under Schedule 36 to the Finance Act 2008, would also be useful. For example, it is from the last of those reports, dated January 2024, that I learned that these reasonable suspicion tax information powers were now being used to obtain location data—something that it had previously been said would not be done.
Dan Squires, one of the authors of the legal opinion that I know was referred to on Monday, is not only a King’s Counsel but a deputy High Court judge and a genuine expert in this area. He and his junior, Aidan Wills, point in that opinion to the personal nature of some of the data that could be harvested under the proposed power and advise that Schedule 11 does not come close to the safeguards required for compliance with Article 8. They refer in particular to the striking lack of clarity about the grounds on which and the circumstances in which the proposed power can be used, as well as to the absence of both independent authorisation and independent oversight. They point out that, although saving up to £600 million over five years is a very important objective, it weighs no more heavily—indeed, probably less heavily—than the normal justifications for obtaining information in bulk: protecting national security and the prevention and detection of serious crime. Their opinion is well referenced, persuasive and consistent with the view on proportionality expressed by both the Information Commissioner and the Constitution Committee, on which I sit.
On Monday, the Minister referred to the power in Schedule 23 to the Finance Act 2011 to obtain certain data items from particular classes of data holder—for example, employers and land agents. So I had a look at that schedule and the data-gathering regulations under its paragraph 1. The power would appear to apply only to certain tightly defined items, such as payments made by the employer or arising from use of land. There would appear to be a noticeable contrast with location data, personal spending habits and so on, which fall within the scope of the powers in this schedule, as they are written in the Bill. Both HMRC and the Home Office operate under powers tightly defined in legislation. Assurances that those powers will be used in a restrained way, as Justice has commented in its useful briefing on the Bill, simply do not cut it. I am afraid that the law requires the DWP to be subject to the same constraints.
I am concerned: concerned that this important new power was not subject to detailed consultation or even to scrutiny by a Commons Bill Committee, where useful evidence could have been heard; concerned that it could even have been contemplated that so vague a power might be in the Bill and not accompanied by a code of practice; concerned about the absence of an independent approval and oversight mechanism, equivalent to the Office for Communications Data Authorisations and the Investigatory Powers Commissioner’s Office; and concerned that, if we do not get this potentially valuable power right from the start, it will immediately be subject to legal challenges, which will swiftly render it unusable.
If, as I believe, Schedule 11 is currently unfit for purpose, is there time to rescue it? I have a couple of practical suggestions. First, I saw the investigatory powers unit from the Home Office when it happened to be in the House yesterday, and I wondered if there might be utility in it comparing notes with the Bill team about these types of powers and their attendant safeguards.
Secondly, I hope the Government appreciate the significance—at least to us nerds in the Committee—of the legal analysis of Dan Squires KC and Aidan Wills. If we are to be told that it is mistaken, which would certainly be unusual, I for one would like to see that backed up by an opinion from a lawyer of equivalent stature, whether at the GLD or independent counsel, explaining precisely and persuasively why Mr Squires and Mr Wills are wrong. Otherwise, and without significant change of the type identified in the opinion, I am afraid I am not inclined to give this schedule the benefit of the doubt.
I signed up to the stand part notice of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, thinking it would at least be a platform to think about what amendments to the schedule might be needed. The more I read the schedule and the more I hear about it, the more I am driven to the conclusion that, if we do not see substantial change, opposing the schedule may be the way that we have to go at the next stage.
Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)
In the two previous groups, I raised pension credit, and it is notable that the noble Viscount the Minister has not responded on that point. As such, my automatic assumption is that he believes that the implementation of these powers will deter people from seeking pension credit, which is contrary to the Government’s declared policy to encourage people. I mention that in passing, given this opportunity.
My other moan is about the impact assessment; there is none. I do not like the impact assessment that we have. It is a totally impenetrable and meaningless document, which is clearly there just as a matter of form rather than as a serious attempt to try to inform participants in these debates about what is in the Bill and what impact it will have on people and organisations.
My specific points are broadly in line with the points raised by UK Finance, the overall organisation for financial organisations, including banks and insurance companies, which continues to have serious concerns about these provisions. I think we should listen carefully to what it says. In particular, if we are going to have these powers then, in line with the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lady Sherlock, we have to make sure that they are introduced in an effective way that appreciates the vulnerabilities of customers.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, it has been a privilege to be at the ringside during these three groups. I think the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, is well ahead on points and that, when we last left the Minister, he was on the ropes, so I hope that to avoid the knock- out he comes up with some pretty good responses today, especially as we have been lucky enough to have the pleasure of reading Hansard between the second and third groups. I think the best phrase that noble Baroness had was the “astonishing breadth” of Clause 128 and Schedule 11 that we explored with horror last time. I very much support what she says.
The current provisions seem to make the code non-mandatory, yet we discovered they are without “reasonable suspicion”, the words that are in the national security legislation—fancy having the Home Office as our model in these circumstances. Does that not put the DWP to shame? If we have to base best practice on the Home Office, we are in deep trouble.
That aside, we talked about “filtering” and “signals” last time. The Minister used that phrase twice, I think, and we discovered about “test and learn”. Will all that be included in the code?
All this points to the fragility and breadth of this schedule. It has been dreamt up in an extraordinarily expansive way without considering all the points that the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, has mentioned, including the KC’s opinion, all of which point to the fact that this schedule is going to infringe Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights. I hope the Minister comes up with some pretty good arguments.
My final question relates to the impact assessment–or non-impact assessment. The Minister talked about the estimate of DWP fraud, which is £6.4 billion. What does the DWP estimate it will be after these powers are implemented, if they are ever implemented? Should we not have an idea of the DWP’s ambitions in this respect?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)
My Lords, this has been a somewhat shorter debate than we have been used to, bearing in mind Monday’s experience. As with the first two groups debated then, many contributions have been made today and I will of course aim to answer as many questions as I can. I should say that, on this group, the Committee is primarily focusing on the amendments brought forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, and I will certainly do my very best to answer her questions.
From the debate that we have had on this measure, I believe that there is agreement in the Committee that we must do more to clamp down on benefit fraud. That is surely something on which we can agree. In 2022-23, £8.3 billion was overpaid due to fraud and error in the benefit system. We must tackle fraud and error and ensure that benefits are paid to those genuinely entitled to the help. These powers are key to ensuring that we can do this.
I will start by answering a question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson—I welcome him to the Committee for the first time today. He described himself as a “surveillance nerd”, but perhaps I can entreat him to rename himself a “data-gathering nerd”. As I said on Monday, this is not a surveillance power and suggesting that it is simply causes unnecessary worry. This is a power that enables better data gathering; it is not a surveillance or investigation power.
The third-party data measure does not allow the DWP to see how claimants spend their money, nor does it give the DWP access to millions of people’s bank accounts, as has been inaccurately presented. When the DWP examines the data that it receives from third parties, this data may suggest that there is fraud or error and require a further review. This will be done through our normal, regular, business-as-usual processes to determine whether incorrect payments are indeed being made. This approach is not new. As alluded to in this debate, through the Finance Act 2011, Parliament has already determined that this type of power is proportionate and appropriate, as HMRC already owns similar powers regarding banking institutions and third parties in relation to all taxpayers.
I listened very carefully to the noble Lord and will, however, take back his points and refer again to our own legal team. I think the point was made about the legality of all this. It is a very important point that he has made with all his experience, and I will take it back and reflect on it.
Lord Anderson of Ipswich (CB)
I take the Minister’s point and I will settle for the appellation “investigatory powers nerd”; I am quite happy with that. Does the Minister agree with me, however, that the legal difficulty —we see this with the other bulk powers already in our law—is that Article 8 of the European convention locks in not when a human eye gets stuck into the detail, but as soon as a machine harvests the data in bulk? Most of that data relates to people in respect of whom there could be no possible suspicion. Satisfying the requirements of necessity and proportionality must be done even at that stage. I understand that that is awkward and I am sure a lot of people would prefer that it was otherwise, but that is, as I understand it, the law. That renders the distinction that the Minister seeks to draw between data gathering and surveillance perhaps slightly difficult to maintain.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
If I may just answer that question from the noble Lord, Lord Anderson; I think it is important to take one question at a time.
I have every sympathy with what the noble Lord has said. As I mentioned on Monday, points could easily raised about that—I think it may have been the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, who raised points about computers and their robustness. This is the very point that we agree with. It is incredibly important and we have started already to draw up a proper code of practice to work with the banks on how this will actually work. We need continued time to work these issues through. I also made the point on Monday that, at the end of the day, a human being will be there—must be there—to determine where we go from there.
Lord Anderson of Ipswich (CB)
In relation to the code of practice, which I am glad the Minister mentioned, we have just seen the Investigatory Powers (Amendment) Bill through this place. It makes some relatively minor changes to the powers of the intelligence agencies to harvest data in bulk and, to ensure the orderly passage of that Bill through both Houses of Parliament, the key excerpts of the draft code of practice were made available before Committee in either House to enable it to be properly scrutinised. We seem to have left it terribly late in the day still to be talking about a draft code of practice on this Bill, which we have not even seen. Can the Minister assure us that before we come to Report, that code of practice will be available in draft?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
Indeed, I was going to come on to that later in my remarks, particularly to address the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock. We need the necessary time to continue to develop this code of practice, and that is particularly important in respect of this measure. The answer is no, I cannot guarantee to have the code of practice ready by Report. Indeed, I am saying that it will be ready sometime in the summer. It is important to make that point but also a further one, which is that there are many instances, as the noble Lord will know, when a code of practice is finalised and brought forward after the primary legislation is brought through, and this is one of those cases. That is not abnormal but normal. The noble Lord may not like it but there is considerable precedent for that to happen.
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)
I have a question. I am slightly puzzled about the difference between data collection and surveillance. Surely the collection and gathering of data would be to enable officials to survey someone’s bank account. If that is not the case, what is the purpose of collecting the data if not to interrogate the behaviour of an individual to understand how their money is being brought in and spent, so that the department can exercise some judgment over whether the individual is revealing the truth about their income and outgoings?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
Indeed, I think we are going back to the debates that we had on Monday. However, this chimes with a question from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, so it might be helpful briefly to rehearse what we are doing here and to be clear about the limitations and the checks and balances on the power that we are bringing forward.
As per paragraph 1(2) of Schedule 11 to the draft legislation, the DWP can use this power only for the purposes of checking whether someone is eligible for the benefit that they are receiving. In practice, this means that the DWP will request information only on specific criteria, which I laid out on Monday, linked to benefit eligibility rules, which, if met may—I emphasise “may”—indicate fraud or error. If accounts do not match these criteria, no data will be shared with the DWP. The effect of paragraphs 1 and 2 of the draft legislation is that the DWP can ask for data only where there is this three-way relationship between the DWP, the third party and the recipient of the payment. In addition, the DWP can ask for data only from third parties designated in secondary legislation, subject to the affirmative procedure. There are debates to come as further reassurance to your Lordships.
As per paragraph 4(2) of Schedule 11 to the draft legislation, the power does not allow the DWP to share personal information with third parties, which means that the power can be used only with third parties who are able to identify benefit recipients independently. Just to add further to this, we are obliged, under Article 5(1)(c) of the UK GDPR, to ask only for the minimum of information to serve our purposes. In accordance with the DWP’s existing commitments on the use of automation, no automatic benefit decisions will be taken based on any information supplied by third parties to the DWP. As I said earlier and on Monday, a human will always be involved in decision-making. I hope that helps.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)
I am sorry to interrupt the noble Viscount, but I just want to be clear about what he is saying in relation to the code of practice, which obviously is at the heart of this section of the debate, although there will be other things to come. Am I right that he said—obviously he has to cover himself—that there is a chance that the Report stage of this Bill might be entered into before we have sight of the draft code of practice? He makes the point that that is not an unusual occasion. I understand that—we have both served in Parliament long enough to know that that is the case—but this is clearly an issue on which the Committee has made very strong representations to the Government. Will he do what is in his power to make sure that we do not enter Report without seeing at least an early draft, if that is possible, of the code of practice?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I will certainly take that back. I do not want to make any commitments today. I have already set out our stall as to where we are. I make the further point—I am perhaps repeating myself—that given the sensitivities that there clearly are, which I have been listening to carefully, it is important that this code of practice is developed at a pace that is right for what is needed, in bringing those involved along and making sure that it is right, secure, safe and with all the safeguards involved. It is quite a serious piece of work, as noble Lords would expect me to say. I will take that back. I will certainly not be able to guarantee to produce anything before Report, which may disappoint the noble Lord, but at least I have gone as far as I can. I hope that that is helpful.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)
I am grateful to the noble Viscount. This is just a thought, but we are happy to help, as we often have done in the past on other Bills. If there is any opportunity for us to be shown early drafts, to give some help and assurance to the noble Viscount that he is on the right track, I am sure that that would be accepted.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I appreciate the tone of the noble Lord and, if there is anything that comes from behind me before I conclude my remarks, to be helpful, I will certainly do that.
Our debates on this measure have covered many issues. This group, as mentioned earlier, focuses primarily on the operational delivery of the power, so it would be quite good to move on. Just before I do, for the benefit of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, in terms of the late introduction—his words—of this measure, as mentioned on Monday the DWP published a fraud plan in May 2022, where it outlined a number of new powers that it would seek to secure when parliamentary time allowed. In the parliamentary time available, DWP has prioritised our key third-party data-gathering measure, which will help it to tackle one of the largest causes of fraud and error in the welfare system. That is a short version of what I said on Monday, but I hope that it might be helpful.
Before I turn to the amendments, it might be helpful to set out how the legislation will frame the delivery of this measure. When we issue a request for data to a third party or, as it is set out, an account information notice or AIN, which is in the Bill, we can only ask it to provide data where it may help the DWP to establish whether benefits have been properly paid in accordance with the rules relating to those benefits. As mentioned earlier, this is defined clearly at paragraph 1(2) of the new schedule. This is where the data that DWP receives may signal—to use the word raised by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones—potential fraud and error. The noble Lord asked for further clarification on that point. To be clear, a signal of fraud and error is where the rules of benefit eligibility appear not to be met. For example, this might be where a claimant has more capital than the benefit rules allow. As I made clear on Monday, all benefits and payments have rules that determine eligibility, which Parliament has agreed are the right rules in its consideration of other social security legislation. To issue an AIN, we must also have designated a third party in affirmative regulations, which need to be passed by both Houses.
As has been covered, we can also only request data from third parties where there is this relationship, which I will not repeat again and which I think the Committee will be familiar with. Our intention is to designate banks and financial institutions as the first third parties that we can approach, enabling us to request information on accounts only held in the UK. Just to clarify that point, we will not be able to request information on overseas accounts.
On the question raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, on examples of non-financial organisations that the power could appropriately be used on, we will bring forward regulations to specify the data holders in scope. I hope that this is helpful. In the first instance, this will be, as mentioned, banks and financial institutions. The power also has potential use cases with other third parties, such as housing or childcare providers, but, just to reassure the Committee, this would be subject to further parliamentary approval.
Lord Anderson of Ipswich (CB)
I am grateful to the Minister—I am just trying to catch up. On the point that he made about regulations, I imagine that the power to prescribe the descriptions of persons to whom an account information notice may be sent comes under paragraph 1(1) of the schedule. I think that that is what he was saying. In paragraph 2, on the content of the account information notices, there is a reference to
“other specified information relating to the holders of those accounts, and … such further information in connection with those accounts as may be specified”.
Does that simply mean anything specified in the account information notice or is there a power to make regulations that will limit the types of information that can be specified in an AIN?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
Again, I hope that I might have covered this earlier. If I read the noble Lord’s question correctly, the definitions will need to be debated by both Houses. I have made clear what we are bringing in at the moment for banks and financial institutions, but this will need to be looked at by both Houses in future. I hope that that is clear.
Lord Anderson of Ipswich (CB)
I apologise; I did not make myself clear. I think that we are on entirely the same wavelength on the persons to whom an information notice can be given; the Minister has reassured us that they will be specified in regulations and considered by both Houses. My question relates to the content of an account information notice under paragraph 2 and the very broad references to “other specified information”, “such further information” and so on. I did not read that as a regulation-making power. I rather assume that the discretion over the choice of information that is specified remains entirely at large. If the Minister is saying that there will be regulations that will specify the information that an AIN can include, hence mitigating the breadth of paragraph 2, I would be glad if he could make that clear.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My understanding —with his experience, I am sure that the noble Lord will be ahead of me on this—is that this is defined. We define it pretty clearly in paragraph 1(2). In the interests of time, I will reflect on what he has asked and will be absolutely sure to add this to the letter that I pledged to write on Monday—it is getting bigger by the moment, as I fully expected.
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
My Lords, as I asked only four questions, I want to try to nail each one as we go. I am grateful to the Minister. Before we leave the matter of the kind of organisations to which this applies, I think that he is saying that the Bill would allow the DWP to request information from any kind of organisation, including phone companies, which I asked about specifically. The kinds of organisations are to be specified in regulations, which the Government will bring forward, initially naming financial institutions. By virtue of further regulations, could they extend that to anything—to Garmin, the people who monitor your runs, to gyms and to anyone else? Is that correct?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
That is correct. I hope indeed that it provides some reassurance that extending it to the banks and financial institutions initially is deliberately designed to be narrow. It would be subject to both Houses to debate other areas beyond those. I am coming on to address that. The noble Baroness asked about phone companies. Simply put, we will be able to designate the third parties that fit within the provisions of this legislation where they hold information that would help us to verify whether someone meets the eligibility criteria for the benefit that they are receiving. However, ultimately, it would be for Parliament to decide whether a third party can be designated under this power, as we must bring affirmative regulations forward to do this. We have that power.
Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)
To be clear, they already have some information about claimants or recipients. Does this Bill make any difference to that information? Can they already use the information that they have for these purposes, for example the name and address of a claimant’s bank account, or does this Bill extend the use of information to other information that they already have?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
Indeed, that is correct. I hope that is helpful and gives the noble Lord reassurance. To clarify, we have our normal business-as-usual processes so, where we are able to—with the restriction of not at present being able to use the banks and financial institutions as a conduit—we have those powers. However, obviously, as has been made clear by the ICO, there is no alternative to needing the help of banks and financial institutions to go further in tackling the ever-greater sophistication of fraud.
The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked whether we could issue an AIN to a bank other than that into which the benefit is paid. The answer is no. The power is exercisable only in respect of a matching account that meets the criteria in an AIN and receives a benefit payment. If this is not the case, the Secretary of State cannot require them to supply that information.
When it comes to issuing an AIN, DWP will be able to exercise these powers only for payments for which it is responsible. This means that DWP cannot exercise this power with some benefits that fall under the legislation, such as child benefit, as was mentioned on Monday. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, raised this issue. As I committed to do on Monday, I will provide in writing more detail on the scope of the measure and on these limitations, which will require more time.
I will also ensure that my letter is clear on how the measure will impact appointees, joint claims and other such accounts. I am well aware that a number of questions were asked about this matter on Monday but, in the interests of time, I will move on.
I turn to proofs of concept. I also want to speak about our approach to delivery, in particular how we plan to test delivery before we gradually scale up operational delivery; I am aware of the time, but I hope that the Committee will indulge me. Our planned period of “test and learn” will build on our learning from our two previous proofs of concept, which we conducted in 2017 and 2022. These demonstrated the effectiveness of this approach and contributed to the OBR’s certification that the measure will save up to £600 million over the next five years.
The two proofs of concept that I mention are important. I hope that the Committee will be interested to read the results, which demonstrate why we need to do this. Without further ado, let me say that I will set out the details of these two examples in the letter as well, which will, I hope, be helpful.
The noble Lord, Lord Vaux, who is in his place, the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, spoke about the regulatory impact assessment on Monday. I just want to use this time to reassure them on that. More information on these proofs are contained within the RIA, which was, as noble Lords will know, green-rated by the RPC.
On “test and learn”, we have a clear view on how this power may work. We are already working with third parties in readiness to commence the formal “test and learn” period in early 2025 and preparing the code of practice in advance of that. I will come on to that in just a second—in fact, I will come on to it right now, given the time. I shall refer to Amendments 225 to 232 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock.
To support the delivery of this measure, we will produce the code of practice to help define how the measure will work, with explanations. I assure the noble Baroness and the Committee that the code of practice is already in development; we are working positively with around eight leading financial institutions through an established working group that meets regularly to shape the code. We are fully committed to continuing that work; I think I covered the timing of that earlier in my remarks. Accepting Amendments 225 and 226 in the name of the noble Baroness would therefore, we believe, have minimal effect. I am clear that DWP will produce a code of practice, which will be consulted on; I have also set out the sort of detail that it will contain. Accepting them may also potentially restrict our ability to develop the code of practice further as we understand more from “test and learn”.
Because we are developing this collaboratively with banks, I am not yet in a position to share the draft code, as I mentioned; I have given certain reassurances on that. However, I can say that it will provide guidance on issues such as the nature of the power and to whom it will apply. It will also provide information on safeguards, cover data security responsibilities and provide information on the appeals processes should a third party wish to dispute a request. We will engage with SSAC, to help the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, as we bring forward the affirmative regulations. On balance, I believe that the best course is to consult on the code of practice rather than rushing to define it now.
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
I am most grateful to the Minister. There is one question, so I apologise if he answered it and I did not quite pick it up. I specifically asked if these powers would allow the DWP to devise criteria designed to identify if a claimant was in fact living with another adult. With the appropriate regulation, would the powers allow it to do that?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
That is one of the questions that I can now answer. The power will allow this, in so far as it pertains to helping the Secretary of State establish whether the benefits are being paid properly, as with paragraph 1(2) of new Schedule 3B. Rules around living together are relevant only to some benefits. That is a very short answer, but I could expand on it.
Baroness Kidron (CB)
May I add to the very long letter? I have been sitting here worrying about this idea that one of the “signals” will be excess capital and then there are matching accounts. If the matching account has more capital—for example, the person who has a connected account is breaking the £16,000 or £6,000—does that signal trigger some sort of investigation?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
That is a very fair question, and I hope that I understand it correctly. I can say that the limit for the DWP is that it can gain only from what the third party produces. Whatever goes on behind the doors of the third party is for them and not us. Whether there is a related account and how best to operate is a matter for the bank to decide. We may therefore end up getting very limited information, in terms of the limits of our powers. I hope that helps, but I will add some more detail in the letter.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, the Minister extolled the green-rated nature of this impact assessment. In the midst of all that, did he answer my question?
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
I asked about the amount of fraud that the Government plan to detect, on top of the £6.4 billion in welfare overpayments that was detected last year.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
The figure that we have is £600 million but, again, I will reflect on the actual question that we are looking to address—the actual amount of fraud in the system.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
The Minister is saying that that figure is not to be found in this green-rated impact assessment, which most of us find to be completely opaque.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I will certainly take that back, but it is green rated.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, we have talked about proportionality and disproportionality throughout the debate on this Bill. Is it not extraordinary that that figure is not on the table, given the extent of these powers?
Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)
My Lords, the Minister was kind enough to mention me a little earlier. Can I just follow up on that? In the impact assessment, which I have here, nowhere can I find the £600 million figure, nor can I find anywhere the costs related to this. There will be a burden on the banks and clearly quite a burden on the DWP, actually, if it has got to trawl through this information, as the noble Viscount says, using people rather than machines. The costs are going to be enormous to save, it would appear, up to £120 million per year out of £6.4 billion per year of fraud. It does seem odd. It would be really helpful to have those cost numbers and to understand in what document they are, because I cannot find in the impact assessment where these numbers are.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I hope I can help both noble Lords. Although I must admit that I have not read every single page, I understand that the figure of £500 million is in the IA.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
Yes, £500 million. I mentioned £600 million altogether; that was mentioned by the OBR, which had certified this, and by the way, that figure was in the Autumn Statement.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, has not that demonstrated the disproportionality of these measures?
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
The noble Viscount explained in response to the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, that at every stage where the powers are going to be expanded, it would come back as an affirmative regulation. I might have been a bit slow about this, but I have been having a look and I cannot see where it says that. Perhaps he could point that out to me, because that would provide some reassurance that each stage of this is coming back to us.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I understand, very quickly, that it is in paragraph 1(1), but again, in the interests of time, maybe we could talk about that outside the Room.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
Could the Minister clarify: was that paragraph 1(1)?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I can reassure the noble Lord that that is the case, yes.
Lord Anderson of Ipswich (CB)
I do not know whether I can help. I agree with the noble Baroness: I do not think it is very clear from paragraph 1(1) that there is a regulation-making power. However, if you look at paragraph 5 of the new schedule, there is a reference there to regulations under paragraph 1(1) as well as two other paragraphs of the schedule. That is the rather tortuous route by which I came to the conclusion that the Minister is quite right.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I reassure noble Lords that is correct—it is paragraph 1(1). It may be rather complex, but it is in there, just to reassure all noble Lords.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
I am sorry to keep coming back, but did the Minister give us the paragraph in the impact assessment that referred to £500 million?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
No, I did not, but that is something which surely we can deal with outside the Room. However, I can assure noble Lords that it is in there.
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his attempts to answer my questions and those of many noble Lords. I will not detain the Committee for very long at all.
I am grateful to know that there will be a code and that it will be consulted on. Given that, it would have saved an awful lot of trouble if the Government had simply not put “may” in the Bill in the first place—that would have cut out a whole loop of this. I am very grateful to know that that is there. I agree with the Minister that we all want to know about and to clamp down on fraud and error; the question is one of proportionality.
When the Minister comes to write—I realise that this letter is turning into “War and Peace”, but it will make us all come to Report in a much better place if we can get a clearer answer to many of these questions— I still wonder whether he properly answered the question from the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, about the legality of these powers, because the point about when they engage is crucial. The Minister is still coming back to a distinction between the gathering of the data and what the DWP will do using its existing “business as usual” powers, to investigate. I think the point the noble Lord was making is that the question of legality engages at the point of that data gathering, not at the point at which it is used, if I am correct. I am not sure that the Minister answered that—I am not inviting him to do it now—but I specifically suggest that he takes advice on that point before we come back on Report.
The other issue is that, if the Government have come in so late in the day introducing these powers into the Bill, it would have been better to have draft regulations before Report at the first stage. The Minister thinks the code can be available in the summer, but the summer is fast approaching so I see no reason why the usual channels could not accommodate the date for Report to allow us to go past the date for producing a draft code if the Government wish to. I realise that they may not wish to, but it must be perfectly possible—unless the Minister knows something I do not about a likely date of a general election, presumably we should still have time to do that. So I commend that thought to him.
However, we also know that a lot of the constraints he has described will happen solely in regulations. Everybody in this Committee is aware of the limitations of the capacity of both Houses to do anything about regulations. We cannot amend them here. The Government will bring them forward, but the capacity of us to do anything about that is small, so that is not as much of an assurance as it would be in other circumstances.
Finally, what I am left with is that these powers could do anything from something that might sound very proportionate to something that might sound entirely disproportionate, and we simply have not heard anything that enables us to make a judgment early enough to know where that is contained. I therefore ask the Government to think again before Report about ways in which they might provide assurance about a more contained and proportionate approach to these measures.
Since we are in Committee, in the meantime, I thank all noble Lords for their work on this and the Minister for his response. Before I beg leave to withdraw, I see that the Minister is intervening on me now, which is a joyful change.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
Before the noble Baroness sits down, I want to say one very important thing. As ever with Bills, there is an opportunity to engage, and I pledge right now to engage with all noble Lords who wish to, and we would like to as well, on these particular measures, to provide, I hope, further reassurances to those that I have given. I hope there is some acceptance that I have given some reassurances.
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
My Lords, I am sure that on behalf of the Committee I can thank the Minister for that generous offer, and we look forward to taking it up. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Viscount Camrose
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment makes a technical change to wording about investigations by a coroner or procurator fiscal. The omitted words are not required because there is no stage at which a coroner or procurator fiscal would be “due to” conduct an investigation into a death (as opposed to conducting an investigation into it).
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)
My Lords, having listened carefully to representations from across the House at Second Reading, I am introducing this amendment to address concerns about the data preservation powers established in the Bill. The amendment provides for coroners, and procurators fiscal in Scotland, to initiate the data preservation process when they decide it is necessary and appropriate to support their investigations into a child’s death, irrespective of the suspected cause of death.
This amendment demonstrates our commitment to ensuring that coroners and procurators fiscal can access the online data they may need to support their investigation into a child’s death. It is important to emphasise that coroners and procurators fiscal, as independent judges, have discretion about whether to trigger the data preservation process. We are grateful to the families, Peers and coroners whom we spoke to in developing these measures. In particular, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, who is in her place. I beg to move.
Baroness Kidron (CB)
My Lords, it is an unusual pleasure to support the Minister and to say that this is a very welcome amendment to address a terrible error of judgment made when the Government first added the measure to the Bill in the other place and excluded data access for coroners in respect of children who died by means other than suicide. I shall not replay here the reasons why it was wrong, but I am extremely glad that the Government have put it right. I wish to take this opportunity to pay tribute to those past and present at 5Rights and the NSPCC for their support and to those journalists who understood why data access for coroners is a central plank of online safety.
I too recognise the role of the Bereaved Families for Online Safety. They bear the pain of losing a child and, as their testimony has repeatedly attested, not knowing the circumstances surrounding that death is a particularly cruel revictimisation for families, who never lose their grief but simply learn to live with it. We owe them a debt of gratitude for putting their grief to work for the benefit of other families and other children.
Lord Allan of Hallam (LD)
My Lords, I want briefly to contribute to this debate, which I think is somewhat less contentious than the previous group of amendments. As somebody, again, who was working on the Online Safety Act all the way through, I really just pay tribute to the tenacity of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for pursuing this detail—it is a really important detail. We otherwise risk, having passed the legislation, ending up in scenarios where everyone would know that it was correct for the data-gathering powers to be implemented but, just because of the wording of the law, they would not kick in when it was necessary. I therefore really want to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for being persistent with it, and I congratulate the Government on recognising that, when there is an irresistible force, it is better to be a movable object than an immovable one.
I credit the noble Viscount the Minister for tabling these amendments today. As I say, I think that this is something that can pass more quickly because there is broad agreement around the Committee that this is necessary. It will not take away the pain of families who are in those circumstances, but it will certainly help coroners get to the truth when a tragic incident has occurred, whatever the nature of that tragic incident.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, having been involved in and seen the campaigning of the bereaved families and the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, in particular in the Joint Committee on the Draft Online Safety Bill onwards, I associate myself entirely with the noble Baroness’s statement and with my noble friend Lord Allan’s remarks.
Lord Leong (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for setting out the amendment and all noble Lords who spoke. I am sure the Minister will be pleased to hear that we support his Amendment 236 and his Amendment 237, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, has added her name.
Amendment 236 is a technical amendment. It seeks the straightforward deletion of words from a clause, accounting for the fact that investigations by a coroner, or procurator fiscal in Scotland, must start upon them being notified of the death of a child. The words
“or are due to conduct an investigation”
are indeed superfluous.
We also support Amendment 237. The deletion of this part of the clause would bring into effect a material change. It would empower Ofcom to issue a notice to an internet service provider to retain information in all cases of a child’s death, not just cases of suspected suicide. Sadly, as many of us have discovered in the course of our work on this Bill, there is an increasing number of ways in which communication online can be directly or indirectly linked to a child’s death. These include areas of material that is appropriate for adults only; the inability to filter harmful information, which may adversely affect mental health and decision-making; and, of course, the deliberate targeting of children by adults and, in some cases, by other children.
There are adults who use the internet with the intention of doing harm to children through coercion, grooming or abuse. What initially starts online can lead to contact in person. Often, this will lead to a criminal investigation, but, even if it does not, the changes proposed by this amendment could help prevent additional tragic deaths of children, not just those caused by suspected child suicides. If the investigating authorities have access to online communications that may have been a contributing factor in a child’s death, additional areas of concern can be identified by organisations and individuals with responsibility for children’s welfare and action taken to save many other young lives.
Before I sit down, I want to take this opportunity to say a big thank you to the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and all those who have campaigned on this issue relentlessly and brought it to our attention.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
Let me begin by reiterating my thanks to the noble Baroness, Peers, families and coroners for their help in developing these measures. My momentary pleasure in being supported on these amendments is, of course, tempered by the desperate sadness of the situations that they are designed to address.
I acknowledge the powerful advocacy that has taken place on this issue. I am glad that we have been able to address the concerns with the amendment to the Online Safety Act, which takes a zero-tolerance approach to protecting children by making sure that the buck stops with social media platforms for the content they host. I sincerely hope that this demonstrates our commitment to ensuring that coroners can fully access the online data needed to provide answers for grieving families.
On the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, guidance from the Chief Coroner is likely to be necessary to ensure both that this provision works effectively and that coroners feel supported in their decisions on whether to trigger the data preservation process. Decisions on how and when to issue guidance are a matter for the Chief Coroner, of course, but we understand that he is very likely to issue guidance to coroners on this matter. His office is working with my department and Ofcom to ensure that our processes are aligned. The Government will also work with the regulators and interested parties to see whether any guidance is required to support parents in understanding the data preservation process. Needless to say, I would be more than happy to arrange a meeting with the noble Baroness to discuss the development of the guidance; other Members may wish to join that as well.
Once again, I thank noble Lords for their support on this matter.
Viscount Camrose
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment concerns OFCOM’s power to issue a notice requiring an internet service provider to retain information about the use of the service by a child who has died, where a coroner or procurator fiscal is investigating the child’s death. The amendment has the effect that the power is no longer limited to cases of suspected child suicide.
“(2A) After section 25, insert—“25A Review of form in which registers are to be kept(1) The Secretary of State must commission a review of the provisions of this Act and of related legislation, with a view to the creation of a single digital register of births and deaths.(2) The review must consider and make recommendations on the effect of the creation of a single digital register on—(a) fraud,(b) data collection, and(c) ease of registration.(3) The Secretary of State must lay the conclusions of their review before Parliament within six months of this section coming into force.””Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would insert a new section into the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953 requiring a review of relevant legislation, with consideration of creating a single digital register for registered births and registered deaths and recommendations on the effects of such a change on reducing fraud, improving data collection and streamlining digital registration.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, I rise to move Amendment 239 and to speak to Amendment 250 in my name. I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for their support for Amendment 250.
These amendments tackle the sensitive but vital process of registering births and deaths. We are pleased that, in Clauses 133 to 137, the Government have set about modernising the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953. The legislation created a huge paper trail of registrations, with local registrars being required to hold paper copies of every live birth, stillbirth and death, as well as providing certified paper copies of the register entries. Since 2009, registrars have also recorded this information electronically, so there is a huge duplication of effort. The clauses now proposed allow registrars to decide the best form in which to record this information, with an expectation that we will largely move to an online database.
These proposals make sense and will be widely welcomed. They make the functioning of the registrar more efficient. More importantly, they will make it easier for families, particularly those that have been bereaved, to inform authorities at what is often a difficult and distressing time. However, we believe that the Bill could go even further to simplify the process, tackle fraud and support bereaved families.
Our Amendment 239 would move away from individual registrars deciding how to record the information and would instead take the first steps to creating a single digital register of births and deaths. Our proposal is that the Secretary of State should commission a review to consider the viability of such a proposal and its potential impact on tackling fraud, the protection of personal data and whether such a scheme would simplify registration procedures on a national level. It would require the conclusions of the review to be laid before Parliament within six months of the section coming into law.
We believe that this standardisation would make it easier for law enforcement agencies to check whether identities are being stolen and whether patterns of identity theft are emerging. It would also enable regulators to set national standards as to how this information should be protected and accessed by, for example, those with commercial interests. It should also make it easier for individuals living in one part of the country to register a death in another part of the country. I hope that the Minister sees the sense of these modest proposals.
Amendment 250 addresses the further potential for the Tell Us Once service. This has been a welcome initiative, which enables bereaved families to inform a large number of government and public sector bodies that a death has occurred without repeating the details over and over again. This considerably reduces the administrative burden at a time of distress and complexity while dealing with the consequences of a bereavement. However, private organisations are not included and loved ones are still tasked with contacting organisations such as employers, banks, energy and telephone companies and so on. Inevitably, the response from these organisations is variable and can be unwittingly insensitive.
A number of charities, including Marie Curie, came together to establish the UK Commission on Bereavement, which was chaired by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London. Its 2022 report found that 61% of adult respondents had experienced practical challenges when notifying an organisation of the death of a loved one. The report made a number of recommendations, with the extension of Tell Us Once being a key issue raised. The report recommended a review of the scheme.
We believe that the time has come to roll out the benefits of the Tell Us Once scheme more widely, so we propose a review of the effectiveness of the current legislation, including any gaps in its provision. Recommendations should then be drawn up to assess whether the scheme could be expanded to include non-public sector, voluntary and private sector holders of personal data. Our proposal is that the Secretary of State should lay a report before Parliament within six months.
This is a common-sense set of proposals, which could bring positive benefits to bereaved families, making best use of digital services to ease the distress and pain of trying to manage a complex web of administrative tasks. I hope that noble Lords and the Minister will see the sense of these proposals and agree to take them forward. I beg to move.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, I will be brief because we very much support these amendments. Interestingly, Amendment 239 from the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, follows closely on from a Private Member’s Bill presented in November 2021 by the Minister’s colleague, Minister Saqib Bhatti, and before that by the right honourable Andrew Mitchell, who is also currently a Minister. The provenance of this is impeccable, so I hope that the Minister will accept Amendment 239 with alacrity.
We very much support Amendment 250. The UK Commission on Bereavement’s Bereavement is Everyone’s Business is a terrific report. We welcome Clause 133 but we think that improvements can be made. The amendment from the noble Baroness, which I have signed, will address two of the three recommendations that the report made on the Tell Us Once service. It said that there should be a review, which this amendment reflects. It also said that
“regulators must make sure bereaved customers are treated fairly and sensitively”
by developing minimum standards. We very much support that. It is fundamentally a useful service but, as the report shows, it can clearly be improved. I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, on picking up the recommendations of the commission and putting them forward as amendments to this Bill.
Lord Harlech (Con)
My Lords, I declare an interest as someone who has been through the paper death registration process and grant of probate, which has something to do with why I am in your Lordships’ House, so I absolutely understand where the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, is coming from. I thank her for tabling these amendments to Clauses 133 and 142. They would require the Secretary of State to commission a review with a view to creating a single digital register for the registration of births and deaths and to conduct a review of the Government’s Tell Us Once scheme.
Clause 133 reforms how births and deaths are registered in England and Wales by enabling a move from a paper-based system of birth and death registration to registration in a single electronic register. An electronic register is already in use alongside the paper registers and has been since 2009. Well-established safety and security measures and processes are already in place with regard to the electronic infrastructure, which have proven extremely secure in practice. I assure noble Lords that an impact assessment has been completed to consider all the impacts relating to the move to an electronic register, although it should be noted that marriages and civil partnerships are already registered electronically.
The strategic direction is to progressively reduce the reliance on paper and the amount of paper in use, as it is insecure and capable of being tampered with or forged. The creation of a single electronic register will remove the risk of registrars having to transmit loose-leaf register pages back to the register office when they are registering births and deaths at service points across the district. It will also minimise the risk of open paper registers being stolen from register offices.
The Covid-19 pandemic had unprecedented impacts on the delivery of registration services across England and Wales, and it highlighted the need to offer more choice in how births and deaths are registered in the future. The provisions in the Bill will allow for more flexibility in how births and deaths are registered—for example, registering deaths by telephone, as was the case during the pandemic. Over 1 million deaths were successfully registered under provisions in the Coronavirus Act 2020. This service was well received by the public, registrars and funeral services.
Measures will be put in place to ensure that the identity of an informant is established in line with Cabinet Office good practice guidance. This will ensure that information provided by informants can be verified or validated for the purposes of registering by telephone. For example, a medical certificate of cause of death issued by a registered medical practitioner would need to have been received by the registrar before an informant could register a death by telephone. Having to conduct a review, as was proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, would delay moving to digital ways of working and the benefits this would introduce.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
Can I just be clear? The noble Lord was quite rightly saying that there is going to be a move to digital, rather than paper, and we all support that. However, our amendment went one stage further and said that there should be one national digital scheme. In the impact assessment and the strategic direction, to which the noble Lord referred, is one national scheme intended so that registrars do not have the flexibility to do their own thing, with their own computer? Is that now being proposed?
Lord Harlech (Con)
The noble Baroness asks a fair question. A major thing is being proposed, so it is best that we work with our DWP colleagues, and I commit to writing to the noble Baroness and the Committee on that point.
On the amendment to Clause 142, while we agree with the aim of improving the Tell Us Once service, our view is that the only way to achieve this is by upgrading its technology. This work is under way and expected to take up to two years to complete. It will ensure that Tell Us Once continues to operate into the future, providing us with the ability to build on opportunities to improve its speed and efficiency.
Going back to what I said earlier, it would not be right to commit to undertake a review of the service while this upgrading work is ongoing, especially as any extension of the service would require a fundamental change in how it operates, placing additional burdens on registrars and citizens, and undermining that simplicity-of-service principle. For those who still wish to use a paper process, that option will remain. For the reasons that I have set out, I am not able to accept these amendments and I hope that the noble Baroness is happy not to press them.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to hear that there is some work ongoing on the registrar process and that the noble Lord will write with further details. Obviously, if this work is already happening and we have the same intent, we would accept that our amendment is superfluous, but I need to be a little more assured that that is the case.
I was a bit more disappointed with what the Minister was saying on Tell Us Once. I suspect that the technology upgrade to which he referred is only for the current scheme, which refers only to the public sector. However, our proposal and the Marie Curie proposal, which was very well argued, is that there is now a need to extend that to the private sector—to banks, telephone companies and so on.
I did not really hear the Minister saying that that was going to be the case but, if he is going to write, maybe he could embrace that as well. As I said, Tell Us Once is a hugely popular scheme and if we can extend it further to a wider group of organisations, that would be a very popular thing for the Government to do.
In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Viscount Camrose
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendment to this clause in my name moving provision about the initial upload of information into the National Underground Asset Register into a new section to be inserted into Part 3A of the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 (inserted by this clause).
Viscount Camrose (Con)
My Lords, I now turn to the national underground asset register, which I will refer to as NUAR. It is a new digital map of buried pipes and cables that is revolutionising the way that we install, maintain, operate and repair our buried infrastructure. The provisions contained in the Bill will ensure workers have complete and up-to-date access to the data that they need, when they need it, through the new register. NUAR is estimated to deliver more than £400 million per year of economic growth through increased efficiency, reduced accidental damage and fewer disruptions for citizens and businesses. I am therefore introducing several government amendments, which are minor in nature and aim to improve the clarity of the Bill. I hope that the Committee will be content if I address these together.
Amendment 244 clarifies responsibilities in relation to the licensing of NUAR data. As NUAR includes data from across public and private sector organisations, it involves both Crown and third-party intellectual property rights, including database rights. This amendment clarifies that the role of the Keeper of the National Archives in determining the licence terms for Crown IP remains unchanged. This will require the Secretary of State to work through the National Archives to determine licence terms for Crown data, as was always intended. Amendments 243 and 245 are consequential to this change.
Similarly, Amendment 241 moves the provision relating to the first initial upload of data to the register under new Part 3A to make the Bill clearer, with Amendments 248 and 249 consequential to this change.
Amendment 242 is a minor and technical amendment that clarifies that regulations made under new Section 106B(1) can be made “for or in connection with”—rather than solely “in connection with”—the making of information kept in NUAR available, with or without a licence.
Amendment 247 is another minor and technical amendment to ensure that consistent language is used throughout Schedule 13 and so further improve the clarity of these provisions. These amendments provide clarity to the Bill; they do not change the underlying policy.
Although Amendment 298 is not solely focused on NUAR, this might perhaps be a convenient point for me to briefly explain it to your Lordships. Amendment 298 makes a minor and technical amendment to Clause 154, the clause which sets out the extent of the Bill. Subsection (4) of that clause currently provides that an amendment, repeal or revocation made by the Bill
“has the same extent as the enactment amended, repealed or revoked”.
Subsection (4) also makes clear that this approach is subject to subsection (3), which provides for certain provisions to extend only to England and Wales and Northern Ireland. Upon further reviewing the Bill, we have identified that subsection (4) should, of course, also be subject to subsection (2), which provides for certain provisions to extend only to England and Wales. Amendment 298 therefore makes provision to ensure that the various subsections of Clause 154 operate effectively together as a coherent package.
I now turn to a series of amendments raised by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. Amendments 240A and 240B relate to new Section 106A, which places a duty on the Secretary of State to keep a register of information relating to apparatus in streets in England and Wales. Section 106A allows for the Secretary of State to make regulations that establish the form and manner in which the register is kept. The Bill as currently drafted provides for these regulations to be subject to the negative procedure. Amendment 240A calls for this to be changed to the affirmative procedure, while Amendment 240B would require the publication of draft regulations, a call for evidence and the subsequent laying before Parliament of a statement by the Secretary of State before such regulations can be made.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his exposition. He explained the purposes of Clauses 138 to 141 and extolled their virtues, and helpfully explained what my amendments are trying to do—not that he has shot any foxes in the process.
The purpose of my amendments is much more fundamental, and that is to question the methodology of the Government in all of this. The purpose of NUAR is to prevent accidental strikes where building works damage underground infrastructure. However, the Government seem to have ignored the fact that an equivalent service—LinesearchbeforeUdig, or LSBUD—already achieves these aims, is much more widely used than NUAR and is much more cost effective. The existing system has been in place for more than 20 years and now includes data from more than 150 asset owners. It is used by 270,000 UK digging contractors and individuals—and more every day. The fact is that, without further consultation and greater alignment with current industry best practice, NUAR risks becoming a white elephant, undermining the safe working practices that have kept critical national infrastructure in the UK safe for more than two decades.
However, the essence of these amendments is not to cancel NUAR but to get NUAR and the Government to work much more closely with the services that already exist and those who wish to help. They are designed to ensure that proper consultation and democratic scrutiny is conducted before NUAR is implemented in statutory form. Essentially, the industry says that NUAR could be made much better and much quicker if it worked more closely with the private sector services that already exist. Those who are already involved with LinesearchbeforeUdig say, first of all, that NUAR will create uncertainty and reduce safety, failing in its key aims.
The Government have been developing the NUAR since 2018. Claiming that it would drive a reduction in unexpected underground assets being damaged in roadworks, the impact assessment incorrectly states:
“No businesses currently provide a service that is the same or similar to the service that NUAR would provide”.
In fact, as I said, LSBUD has been providing a safe digging service in the UK for 20 years and has grown significantly over that time. Without a plan to work more closely with LSBUD as the key industry representative, NUAR risks creating more accidental strikes of key network infrastructure, increasing risks to workers safety through electrical fires, gas leaks, pollution and so on. The public at home or at work would also suffer more service outages and disruption.
Secondly, NUAR will add costs and stifle competition. The Government claim that NUAR will deliver significant benefits to taxpayers, reduce disruption and prevent damage to underground assets, but the impact assessment ignores the fact that NUAR’s core functions are already provided through the current system—so its expected benefits are vastly overstated. While asset owners, many of whom have not been consulted, will face costs of more than £200 million over the first 10 years, the wholesale publication of asset owners’ entire networks creates commercially sensitive risks, damaging innovation and competition. Combined with the uncertainties about how quickly NUAR can gain a critical mass of users and data, this again calls into question why NUAR does not properly align with and build on the current system but instead smothers competition and harms a successful, growing UK business.
Thirdly, NUAR risks undermining control over sensitive CNI data. Underground assets are integral to critical national infrastructure; protecting them is vital to the UK’s economic and national security. LSBUD deliberately keeps data separate and ensures that data owners remain in full control over who can access their data via a secure exchange platform. NUAR, however, in aiming to provide a single view of all assets, removes providers’ control over their own data—an essential security fail-safe. It would also expand opportunities for malicious actors to target sectors in a variety of ways—for instance, the theft of copper wires from telecom networks.
NUAR shifts control over data access to a centralised government body, with no clear plan for how the data is to be protected from unauthorised access, leading to serious concerns about security and theft. Safe digging is paramount; mandating NUAR will lead to uncertainty, present more health and safety dangers to workers and the public and put critical national infrastructure at risk. These plans require further review. There needs to be, as I have said, greater alignment with industry best practice. Without further consultation, NUAR risks becoming a white elephant that undermines safe digging in the UK and increases risk to infrastructure workers and the public.
I will not go through the amendments individually as the Minister has mentioned what their effect would be, but I will dispel a few myths. The Government have claimed that NUAR has the overwhelming support of asset owners. In the view of those who briefed me, that is not an accurate reflection of the broadband and telecoms sector in particular; a number of concerns from ISPA members have been raised with the NUAR team around cost and security that have yet to be addressed. This is borne out by the fact that there are notable gaps in the major asset owners in the telecoms sector signed up to NUAR at this time.
Clearly, the noble Viscount is resisting changing the procedure by which these changes are made from negative to affirmative, but I hope I have gone some way to persuade the Committee of the importance of this change to how the NUAR system is put on a statutory footing. He talked about a “handful” of data; the comprehensive nature of the existing system is pretty impressive, and it is a free service, updated on a regular basis, which covers more than 150 asset owners and 98% of high-risk assets. NUAR currently covers only one-third of asset owners. The comparisons are already not to the advantage of NUAR.
I hope the Government will at least, even if they do not agree with these amendments, think twice before proceeding at the speed they seem to be and without the consent or taking on board the concerns of those who are already heavily engaged with Linesearch- beforeUdig who find it pretty satisfactory for their purposes.
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister really did big up this section of the Bill. He said it would revolutionise this information service, that it would bring many benefits, has a green rating, would be the Formula 1 of data transfer in mapping and so on. We were led to expect quite a lot from this part of the legislation. It is an important part of the Bill, because it signifies some government progress towards the goal of creating a comprehensive national underground asset register, as he put it, or NUAR. We are happy to support this objective, but we have concerns about the progress being made and the time it is taking.
To digress a bit here, it took me back 50 years to when I was a labourer working by the side of a bypass. One of the guys I was working with was operating our post hole borer; it penetrated the Anglian Water system and sent a geyser some 20 metres up into the sky, completely destroying my midday retreat to the local pub between the arduous exercise of digging holes. Had he had one of the services on offer, I suspect that we would not have been so detained. It was quite an entertaining incident, but it clearly showed the dangers of not having good mapping.
As I understand it, and as was outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, since 2018 the Government have been moving towards this notion of somewhere recording what lies below the surface in our communities. We have had street works legislation going back several decades, from at least 1991. In general, progress towards better co-ordination of utilities excavations has not been helped by poor and low levels of mapping and knowledge of what and which utilities are located underground. This is despite the various legislative attempts to make that happen, most of which have attempted to bring better co-ordination of services.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
I start by thanking the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Bassam, for their respective replies. As I have said, the Geospatial Commission has been engaging extensively with stakeholders, including the security services, on NUAR since 2018. This has included a call for evidence, a pilot project, a public consultation, focus groups, various workshops and other interactions. All major gas and water companies have signed up, as well as several large telecoms firms.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
While the Minister is speaking, maybe the Box could tell him whether the figure of only 33% of asset owners having signed up is correct? Both I and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, mentioned that; it would be very useful to know.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
It did complete a pilot phase this year. As it operationalises, more and more will sign up. I do not know the actual number that have signed up today, but I will find out.
NUAR does not duplicate existing commercial services. It is a standardised, interactive digital map of buried infrastructure, which no existing service is able to provide. It will significantly enhance data sharing and access efficiency. Current services—
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)
I am concerned. We get the principle behind NUAR, but is there an interface between NUAR and this other service—which, on the face of it, looks quite extensive—currently in place? Is there a dialogue between the two? That seems to be quite important, given that there is some doubt over NUAR’s current scope.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
I am not sure that there is doubt over the current scope of NUAR; it is meant to address all buried infrastructure in the United Kingdom. LSBUD does make extensive representations, as indeed it has to parliamentarians of both Houses, and has spoken several times to the Geospatial Commission. I am very happy to commit to continuing to do so.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, is absolutely right to be asking that question. We can go only on the briefs we get. Unlike the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, I have not been underground very recently, but we do rely on the briefings we get. LSBUD is described as a
“sustainably-funded UK success story”—
okay, give or take a bit of puff—that
“responds to most requests in 5 minutes or less”.
It has
“150+ asset-owners covering nearly 2 million km and 98% of high-risk assets—like gas, electric, and fuel pipelines”.
That sounds as though we are in the same kind of territory. How can the Minister just baldly state that NUAR is entirely different? Can he perhaps give us a paragraph on how they differ? I do not think that “completely different” can possibly characterise this relationship.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
As I understand it, LSBUD services are provided on a pdf, on request. It is not interactive; it is not vector-based graphics presented on a map, so it cannot be interrogated in the same way. Furthermore, as I understand it—and I am happy to be corrected if I am misstating—LSBUD has a great many private sector asset owners, but no public sector data is provided. All of it is provided on a much more manualised basis. The two services simply do not brook comparison. I would be delighted to speak to LSBUD.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, we are beginning to tease out something quite useful here. Basically, NUAR will be pretty much an automatic service, because it will be available online, I assume, which has implications on data protection, on who owns the copyright and so on. I am sure there are all kinds of issues there. It is the way the service is delivered, and then you have the public sector, which has not taken part in LSBUD. Are those the two key distinctions?
Viscount Camrose (Con)
Indeed, there are two key distinctions. One is the way that the information is provided online, in a live format, and the other is the quantity and nature of the data that is provided, which will eventually be all relevant data in the United Kingdom under NUAR, versus those who choose to sign up on LSBUD and equivalent services. I am very happy to write on the various figures. Maybe it would help if I were to arrange a demonstration of the technology. Would that be useful? I will do that.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
Unlike the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, I do not have that background in seeing what happens with the excavators, but I would very much welcome that. The Minister again is really making the case for greater co-operation. The public sector has access to the public sector information, and LSBUD has access to a lot of private sector information. Does that not speak to co-operation between the two systems? We seem to have warring camps, where the Government are determined to prove that they are forging ahead with their new service and are trampling on quite a lot of rights, interests and concerns in doing so—by the sound of it. The Minister looks rather sceptical.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
I am not sure whose rights are being trampled on by having a shared database of these things. However, I will arrange a demonstration, and I confidently state that nobody who sees that demonstration will have any cynicism any more about the quality of the service provided.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
All I can say is that, in that case, the Minister has been worked on extremely well.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
In addition to the situation that the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, described, I was braced for a really horrible situation, because these things very often lead to danger and death, and there is a very serious safety argument to providing this information reliably and rapidly, as NUAR will.
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)
My Lords, it took them half a day to discover where the hole had gone and what the damage was. The water flooded several main roads and there were traffic delays and the rest. So these things are very serious. I was trying to make a serious point while being slightly frivolous about it.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
No, indeed, it is a deeply serious point. I do not know the number off the top of my head but there are a number of deaths every year as a result of these things.
As I was saying, a thorough impact assessment was undertaken for the NUAR measures, which received a green rating from the Regulatory Policy Committee. Impacts on organisations that help facilitate the exchange of data related to assets in the street were included in the modelling. Although NUAR could impact existing utility—
Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)
I cannot resist drawing the Minister’s attention to the story in today’s Financial Times, which reports that two major water companies do not know where their sewers are. So I think the impact is going to be a little bit greater than he is saying.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
I saw that story. Obviously, regardless of how they report the data, if they do not know, they do not know. But my thought was that, if there are maps available for everything that is known, that tends to encourage people who do not know to take better control of the assets that they manage.
A discovery project is under way to potentially allow these organisations—these alternative providers—to access NUAR data; LSBUD has been referenced, among others. It attended the last three workshops we conducted on this, which I hope could enable it to adapt its services and business models potentially to mitigate any negative impacts. Such opportunities will be taken forward in future years should they be technically feasible, of value, in the public interest and in light of the views of stakeholders, including asset owners.
A national underground asset register depends on bringing data together from asset owners on to a single standardised database. This will allow data to be shared more efficiently than was possible before. Asset owners have existing processes that have been developed to allow them to manage risks associated with excavations. These processes will be developed in compliance with existing guidance in the form of HSG47. To achieve this, those working on NUAR are already working closely with relevant stakeholders as part of a dedicated adoption group. This will allow for a safe and planned rollout of NUAR to those who will benefit from it.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
Before the Minister’s peroration, I just want to check something. He talked about the discovery project and contact with the industry; by that, I assume he was talking about asset owners as part of the project. What contact is proposed with the existing company, LinesearchbeforeUdig, and some of its major supporters? Can the Government assure us that they will have greater contact or try to align? Can they give greater assurance than they have been able to give today? Clearly, there is suspicion here of the Government’s intentions and how things will work out. If we are to achieve this safety agenda—I absolutely support it; it is the fundamental issue here—more work needs to be done in building bridges, to use another construction metaphor.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
As I said, the Government have met the Geospatial Commission many times. I would be happy to meet it in order to help it adapt its business model for the NUAR future. As I said, it has attended the last three discovery workshops, allowing this data.
I close by thanking noble Lords for their contributions. I hope they look forward to the demonstration.
Viscount Camrose
“106AA Initial upload of information into NUAR(1) Before the end of the initial upload period an undertaker having apparatus in a street must enter into NUAR— (a) all information that is included in the undertaker’s records under section 79(1) on the archive upload date, and(b) any other information of a prescribed description that is held by the undertaker on that date.(2) The duty under subsection (1) does not apply in such cases as may be prescribed.(3) Information must be entered into NUAR under subsection (1) in such form and manner as may be prescribed.(4) For the purposes of subsection (1) the Secretary of State must by regulations—(a) specify a date as “the archive upload date”, and(b) specify a period beginning with that date as the “initial upload period”.(5) Regulations under this section are subject to the negative procedure.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment moves provision about the initial upload of information into the National Underground Asset Register into a new section to be inserted into Part 3A of the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 (inserted by this clause).
Viscount Camrose
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment makes clear that regulations under section 106B(1) of the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 (inserted by this clause) may make provision for, as well as provision in connection with, making information kept in the National Underground Asset Register available.
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the next amendment to this clause in my name.
“(h) make provision for or in connection with the granting of licences by the Secretary of State in relation to any non-Crown IP rights that may exist in relation to information made available (including provision about the form of a licence and the terms and conditions of a licence);(i) make provision for information to be made available for free or for a fee;(j) make provision about the amounts of the fees, including provision for the amount of a fee to be an amount which is intended to exceed the cost of the things in respect of which the fee is charged;(k) make provision about how funds raised by means of fees must or may be used, including provision for funds to be paid to persons who are required, by a provision of this Act, to enter information into NUAR.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment moves provision about licensing and the charging of fees under regulations under section 106B of the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 (inserted by this clause) into subsection (2) of that section; and makes it clear that those regulations will only provide for licensing in relation to non-Crown rights.
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the previous amendment to this clause in my name.
“(6) In this section—“database right” has the same meaning as in Part 3 of the Copyright and Rights in Databases Regulations 1997 (S.I. 1997/3032);“non-Crown IP right” means any copyright, database right or other intellectual property right which is not owned by the Crown.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides for definitions and is consequential on the amendment to this clause in my name making clear that regulations under section 106B of the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 (inserted by this clause) will only provide for licensing in relation to non-Crown rights.
Viscount Camrose
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment ensures that language used in paragraphs 2 and 3 of Schedule 5A to the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 (inserted by this Schedule) is consistent.
Viscount Camrose
“(f) after subsection (3A) insert—“(3B) Except in such cases as may be prescribed, where an undertaker records information as required by subsection (1) or (1B), or updates such information, the undertaker must, within a prescribed period, enter the recorded or updated information into NUAR.(3C) Information must be entered into NUAR under subsection (3B) in such form and manner as may be prescribed.””Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment and the next amendment to this clause in my name are consequential on the amendment to clause 138 in my name moving provision about the initial upload of information into the National Underground Asset Register into a new section to be inserted into Part 3A of the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 (inserted by clause 138).
“(h) after subsection (6) insert—“(7) For the meaning of “NUAR”, see section 106A.””Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment and the previous amendment to this clause in my name are consequential on the amendment to clause 138 in my name moving provision about the initial upload of information into the National Underground Asset Register into a new section to be inserted into Part 3A of the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 (inserted by clause 138).
Baroness Kidron
“Evidence from computer records(1) In any proceedings, a statement containing information in a document produced by a computer is not to be admissible as evidence of any fact stated therein unless it is shown—(a) that there are no reasonable grounds for believing that the information contained in the statement is inaccurate because of improper use of the computer,(b) that at all material times the computer was operating properly, or if not, that any respect in which it was not operating properly or was out of operation was not such as to materially affect the production of the document or the accuracy of the information it contains, and(c) that any relevant conditions specified in rules of court under subsection (2) below are satisfied.(2) Provision may be made by rules of court requiring that in any proceedings where it is desired to give a statement in evidence by virtue of this section such information concerning the statement as may be required by the rules must be provided in such form and at such time as may be so required.”Member’s explanatory statement
This probing amendment reinstates the substantive provisions of section 69 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. In light of the Post Office Horizon scandal, this would revoke the current assumption that the information provided by computers is always accurate.
Baroness Kidron (CB)
My Lords, Amendment 251 is also in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Arbuthnot and Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones. I commend the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot, for his staunch support of the sub-postmasters over many years. I am grateful to him for adding his name to this amendment.
This amendment overturns a previous intervention in the law that has had and will continue to have far-reaching consequences if left in place: the notion that computer evidence should in law be presumed to be reliable. This error, made by the Government and the Law Commission at the turn of the century and reinforced by the courts over decades, has, as we now know, cost innocent people their reputations, their livelihoods and, in some cases, their lives.
Previously, Section 69 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 required prosecutors in criminal cases relying on information from computers to confirm that the computer was operating correctly and could not have been tampered with before it submitted evidence. As the volume of evidence from computers increased, this requirement came to be viewed as burdensome.
In 1997, the Law Commission published a paper, Evidence in Criminal Proceedings: Hearsay and Related Topics, in which it concluded that Section 69
“fails to serve any useful purpose”.
As a result, it was repealed. The effect of this repeal was to create a common law presumption, in both criminal and civil proceedings, of the proper functioning of machines—that is to say, the computer is always right. In principle, there is a low threshold for rebutting this presumption but, in practice, as the Post Office prosecutions all too tragically show, a person challenging evidence derived from a computer will typically have no visibility of the system in question or the ways in which it could or did fail. As a result, they will not know what records of failures should be disclosed to them and might be asked for.
This situation was illustrated in the Post Office prosecution of sub-postmaster Mrs Seema Misra. Paul Marshall, Mrs Misra’s defence lawyer, describes how she was
“taunted by the prosecution for being unable to point to any … identifiable … problem”,
while they hid behind the presumption that the Horizon system was “reliable” under the law. On four occasions during her prosecution, Mrs Misra requested court order disclosure by the Post Office of Horizon error records. Three different judges dismissed her applications. Mrs Misra went to prison. She was eight weeks pregnant, and it was her son’s 10th birthday. On being sentenced, she collapsed.
The repeal of Section 69 of PACE 1984 reflects the Law Commission’s flawed belief that most computer errors were “down to the operator” or “apparent to the operator”, and that you could
“take as read that computer evidence is reliable unless a person can say otherwise”.
In the words of a colleague of mine from the University of Oxford, a professor of computing with a side consultancy specialising in finding bugs for global tech firms ahead of rollout, this assumption is “eye-wateringly mistaken”. He recently wrote to me and said:
“I have been asking fellow computer scientists for evidence that computers make mistakes, and have found that they are bewildered at the question since it is self-evident”.
There is an injustice in being told that a machine will always work as expected, and a further injustice in being told that the only way you can prove that it does not work is to ask by name for something that you do not know exists. That is to say, Mrs Misra did not have the magic word.
In discussions, the Government assert that the harm caused by Horizon was due to the egregious failures of corporate governance at the Post Office. That there has been a historic miscarriage of justice is beyond question, and the outcome is urgently awaited. But the actions of the Post Office were made possible in part because of a flaw in our legal and judicial processes. What happened at the Post Office is not an isolated incident but potentially the tip of an iceberg, where the safety of an unknown number of criminal convictions and civil judgments is called into question.
For example, the Educational Testing Service, an online test commissioned by the Home Office, wrongly determined that 97% of English language students were cheating, a determination that cost the students their right to stay in the UK and/or their ability to graduate, forfeiting thousands of pounds in student fees. The Guardian conducted interviews with dozens of the students, who described the painful consequences. One man was held in UK immigration detention centres for 11 months. Others described being forced into destitution, becoming homeless and reliant on food banks as they attempted to challenge the accusation. Others became depressed and suicidal when confronted with the wasted tuition fees and the difficulty of shaking off an allegation of dishonesty.
The widespread coverage of the Horizon scandal has made many victims of the Home Office scandal renew their efforts to clear their names and seek redress. In another case, at the Princess of Wales Hospital in 2012, nurses were wrongly accused of falsifying patient records because of discrepancies found with computer records. Some of the nurses were subjected to criminal prosecution, suffering years of legal action before the trial collapsed, when it emerged that a visit by an engineer to fix a bug had eradicated all the data that the nurses were accused of failing to gather. That vital piece of information could easily have been discovered and disclosed, if computer evidence was not automatically deemed to be reliable.
Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom (Con)
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, on her amendment and thank her for allowing me to add my name to it. I agree with what she said. I, too, had the benefit of a meeting with the Lord Chancellor, which was most helpful. I am grateful to Mr Paul Marshall—whom the noble Baroness mentioned and who has represented several sub-postmasters in the Horizon scandal—for his help and advice in this matter.
My first short point is that evidence derived from a computer is hearsay. There is good reason for treating hearsay evidence with caution. Computer scientists know—although the general public do not—that only the smallest and least complex computer programs can be tested exhaustively. I am told that the limit for that testing is probably around 100 lines of a well-designed and carefully written program. Horizon, which Mr Justice Fraser said was not in the least robust, consisted of a suite of programs involving millions of lines of code. It will inevitably have contained thousands of errors because all computer programs do. Most computer errors do not routinely cause malfunctions. If they did, they would be spotted at an early stage and the program would be changed—but potentially with consequential changes to the program that might not be intended or spotted.
We are all aware of how frequently we are invited to accept software updates from our mobile telephone’s software manufacturers. Those updates are not limited to security chinks but are also required because bugs—or, as we learned yesterday from Paula Vennells’s husband, anomalies and exceptions—are inevitable in computer programs. That is why Fujitsu had an office dedicated not just to altering the sub-postmasters’ balances, shocking as that is, but to altering and amending a program that was never going to be perfect because no computer program is.
The only conclusion that one can draw from all this is that computer programs are, as the noble Baroness said, inherently unreliable, such that having a presumption in law that they are reliable is unsustainable. In the case of the DPP v McKeown and Jones—in 1997, I think—Lord Hoffmann said:
“It is notorious that one needs no expertise in electronics to be able to know whether a computer is working properly”.
One must always hesitate before questioning the wisdom of a man as clever as Lord Hoffmann, but he was wrong. The notoriety now attaches to his comment.
The consequences of the repeal of Section 69 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 have been that it reduces the burden of proof, so that Seema Misra was sent to prison in the circumstances set out by the noble Baroness. Further, this matter is urgent for two reasons; they slightly conflict with each other, but I will nevertheless set them out. The first is that for the presumption to remain in place for one minute longer means that there is a genuine risk that miscarriages of justice will continue to occur in other non-Post Office cases, from as early as tomorrow. The second is that any defence lawyer will, in any event, be treating the presumption as having been fatally undermined by the Horizon issues. The presumption will therefore be questioned in every court where it might otherwise apply. It needs consideration by Parliament.
My noble friend the Minister will say, and he will be right, that the Horizon case was a disgraceful failure of disclosure by the Post Office. But it was permitted by the presumption of the correctness of computer evidence, which I hope we have shown is unsustainable. Part of the solution to the problem may lie in changes to disclosure and discovery, but we cannot permit a presumption that we know to be unfounded to continue in law.
My noble friend may also go on to say that our amendment is flawed in that it will place impossible burdens on prosecutors, requiring them to get constant certificates of proper working from Microsoft, Google, WhatsApp, and whatever Twitter is called nowadays. Again, he may be right. We do not seek to bring prosecutions grinding to a halt, nor do we seek to question the underlying integrity of our email or communications systems, so we may need another way through this problem. Luckily, my noble friend is a very clever man, and I look forward to hearing what he proposes.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, we have heard two extremely powerful speeches; I will follow in their wake but be very brief. For many years now, I campaigned on amending the Computer Misuse Act; the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot, did similarly. My motivation did not start with the Horizon scandal, but was more at large because of the underlying concerns about the nature of computer evidence.
I came rather late to this understanding about the presumption of the accuracy of computer evidence. It is somewhat horrifying, the more you look into the history of this, which has been so well set out by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron. I remember advising MPs at the time about the Police and Criminal Evidence Act. I was not really aware of what the Law Commission had recommended in terms of getting rid of Section 69, or indeed what the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act did in 1999, a year after I came into this House.
The noble Baroness has set out the history of it, and how badly wrong the Law Commission got this. She set out extremely well the impact and illustration of Mrs Misra’s case, the injustice that has resulted through the Horizon cases—indeed, not just through those cases, but through other areas—and the whole aspect of the reliability of computer evidence. Likewise, we must all pay tribute to the tireless campaigning of the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot. I thought it was really interesting how he described computer evidence as hearsay, because that essentially is what it is, and there is the whole issue of updates and bug fixing.
The one area that I am slightly uncertain about after listening to the debate and having read some of the background to this is precisely what impact Mr Justice Fraser’s judgment had. Some people seem to have taken it as simply saying that the computer evidence was unreliable, but that it was a one-off. It seems to me that it was much more sweeping than that and was really a rebuttal of the original view the Law Commission took on the reliability of computer evidence.
Lord Leong (Lab)
My Lords, I support this probing amendment, Amendment 251. I thank all noble Lords who have spoken. From this side of the Committee, I say how grateful we are to the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot, for all that he has done and continues to do in his campaign to find justice for those sub-postmasters who have been wronged by the system.
This amendment seeks to reinstate the substantive provisions of Section 69 of PACE, the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, revoking this dangerous assumption. I would like to imagine that legislators in 1984 were perhaps alert to the warning in George Orwell’s novel Nineteen Eighty-Four, written some 40 years earlier, about relying on an apparently infallible but ultimately corruptible technological system to define the truth. The Horizon scandal is, of course, the most glaring example of the dangers of assuming that computers are always right. Sadly, as hundreds of sub-postmasters have known for years, and as the wider public have more recently become aware, computer systems can be horribly inaccurate.
However, the Horizon system is very primitive compared to some of the programs which now process billions of pieces of our sensitive data every day. The AI revolution, which has already begun, will exponentially accelerate the risk of compounded errors being multiplied. To take just one example, some noble Lords may be aware of the concept of AI hallucinations. This is a term used to describe when computer models make inaccurate predictions based on seeing incorrect patterns in data, which may be caused by incomplete, biased or simply poor-quality inputs. In an earlier debate, the noble Viscount, Lord Younger of Leckie, said that account information notices will be decided. How will these decisions be made? Will they be made by individual human beings or by some AI-configured algorithms? Can the Minister share with us how such decisions will be taken?
Humans can look at clouds in the sky or outlines on the hillside and see patterns that look like faces, animals or symbols, but ultimately we know that we are looking at water vapour or rock formations. Computer systems do not necessarily have this innate common sense—this reality check. Increasingly, we will depend on computer systems talking to each other without any human intervention. This will deliver some great efficiencies, but it could lead to greater injustices on a scale which would terrify even the most dystopian science fiction writers. The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, has already shared with us some of the cases where a computer has made errors and people have been wronged.
Amendment 251 would reintroduce the opportunity for some healthy human scepticism by enabling the investigation of whether there are reasonable grounds for questioning information in documents produced by a computer. The digital world of 2024 depends more on computers than the world of Nineteen Eighty-Four in actual legislation or in an Orwellian fiction. Amendment 251 enables ordinary people to question whether our modern “Big Brother” artificial intelligence is telling the truth when he or it is watching us. I look forward to the Minister’s responses to all the various questions and on the current assumption in law that information provided by the computer is always accurate.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
My Lords, I recognise the feeling of the Committee on this issue and, frankly, I recognise the feeling of the whole country with respect to Horizon. I thank all those who have spoken for a really enlightening debate. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for tabling the amendment and my noble friend Lord Arbuthnot for speaking to it and—if I may depart from the script—his heroic behaviour with respect to the sub-postmasters.
There can be no doubt that hundreds of innocent sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses have suffered an intolerable miscarriage of justice at the hands of the Post Office. I hope noble Lords will indulge me if I speak very briefly on that. On 13 March, the Government introduced the Post Office (Horizon System) Offences Bill into Parliament, which is due to go before a Committee of the whole House in the House of Commons on 29 April. The Bill will quash relevant convictions of individuals who worked, including on a voluntary basis, in Post Office branches and who have suffered as a result of the Post Office Horizon IT scandal. It will quash, on a blanket basis, convictions for various theft, fraud and related offences during the period of the Horizon scandal in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. This is to be followed by swift financial redress delivered by the Department for Business and Trade.
On the amendment laid by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron—I thank her and the noble Lords who have supported it—I fully understand the intent behind this amendment, which aims to address issues with computer evidence such as those arising from the Post Office cases. The common law presumption, as has been said, is that the computer which has produced evidence in a case was operating effectively at the material time unless there is evidence to the contrary, in which case the party relying on the computer evidence will need to satisfy the court that the evidence is reliable and therefore admissible.
This amendment would require a party relying on computer evidence to provide proof up front that the computer was operating effectively at the time and that there is no evidence of improper use. I and my fellow Ministers, including those at the MoJ, understand the intent behind this amendment, and we are considering very carefully the issues raised by the Post Office cases in relation to computer evidence, including these wider concerns. So I would welcome the opportunity for further meetings with the noble Baroness, alongside MoJ colleagues. I was pleased to hear that she had met with my right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor on this matter.
We are considering, for example, the way reliability of evidence from the Horizon system was presented, how failures of investigation and disclosure prevented that evidence from being effectively challenged, and the lack of corroborating evidence in many cases. These issues need to be considered carefully, with the full facts in front of us. Sir Wyn Williams is examining in detail the failings that led to the Post Office scandal. These issues are not straightforward. The prosecution of those cases relied on assertions that the Horizon system was accurate and reliable, which the Post Office knew to be wrong. This was supported by expert evidence, which it knew to be misleading. The issue was that the Post Office chose to withhold the fact that the computer evidence itself was wrong.
This amendment would also have a significant impact on the criminal justice system. Almost all criminal cases rely on computer evidence to some extent, so any change to the burden of proof would or could impede the work of the Crown Prosecution Service and other prosecutors.
Although I am not able to accept this amendment for these reasons, I share the desire to find an appropriate way forward along with my colleagues at the Ministry of Justice, who will bear the brunt of this work, as the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, alluded to. I look forward to meeting the noble Baroness to discuss this ahead of Report. Meanwhile, I hope she will withdraw her amendment.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
Can the Minister pass on the following suggestion? Paul Marshall, who has been mentioned by all of us, is absolutely au fait with the exact procedure. He has experience of how it has worked in practice, and he has made some constructive suggestions. If there is not a full return to Section 69, there could be other, more nuanced, ways of doing this, meeting the Minister’s objections. But can I suggest that the MoJ has contact with him and discusses what the best way forward would be? He has been writing about this for some years now, and it would be extremely useful, if the MoJ has not already engaged with him, to do so.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
It may have already done so, but I will certainly pass that on.
Baroness Kidron (CB)
I thank everyone who spoke and the Minister for the offer of a meeting alongside his colleagues from the MoJ. I believe he will have a very busy diary between Committee and Report, based on the number of meetings we have agreed to.
However, I want to be very clear here. We have all recognised that the story of the Post Office sub-postmasters makes this issue clear, but it is not about the sub-postmasters. I commend the Government for what they are doing. We await the inquiry with urgent interest, and I am sure I speak for everyone in wishing the sub-postmasters a fair settlement—that is not in question. What is in question is the fact that we do not have unlimited Lord Arbuthnots to be heroic about all the other things that are about to happen. I took it seriously when he said not one moment longer: it could be tomorrow.
Viscount Camrose
“(3A) In section 205(2) (references to periods of time)—(a) omit paragraph (l), and(b) after that paragraph insert—“(la) paragraph 22(6) of Schedule 12A;”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that Article 3 of Regulation No 1182/71 (rules of interpretation regarding periods of time etc) does not apply to paragraph 22(6) of Schedule 12A to the Data Protection Act 2018 (inserted by Schedule 15 to the Bill).
Lord Clement-Jones
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, I am afraid that I will speak to every single one of the amendments in this group but one, which is in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and I have signed it. We have already debated the Secretary of State’s powers in relation to what will be the commission, in setting strategic priorities for the commissioner under Clause 32 and recommending the adoption of the ICAO code of practice before it is submitted to Parliament for consideration under Clause 33:
“Codes of practice for processing personal data”.
We have also debated Clause 34:
“Codes of practice: panels and impact assessments”.
And we have debated Clause 35:
“Codes of Practice: Secretary of States recommendations”.
The Secretary of State has considerable power in relation to the new commission, and then on top of that Clause 143 and Schedule 15 to the Bill provide significant other powers for the Secretary of State to interfere with the objective and impartial functioning of the information commission by the appointment of non-executive members of the newly formed commission. The guarantee of the independence of the ICO is intended to ensure the effectiveness and reliability of its regulatory function and that the monitoring and enforcement of data protection laws are carried out objectively and free from partisan or extra-legal considerations.
These amendments would limit the Secretary of State’s powers and leeway to interfere with the objective and impartial functioning of the new information commission, in particular by modifying Schedule 15 to the Bill to transfer budget responsibility and the appointment process of the non-executive members of the information commission to the relevant Select Committee. If so amended, the Bill would ensure that the new information commission has sufficient arm’s-length distance from the Government to oversee public and private bodies’ uses of personal data with impartiality and objectivity. DSIT’s delegated powers memorandum to the DPRRC barely mentions any of these powers, yet they are of considerable importance. Therefore, I am not surprised that there was no mention of them, but they are very significant.
We have discussed data adequacy before; of course, in his letter to us, the Minister tried to rebut some of the points we made about it. In fact, he quoted somebody who has briefed me extensively on it and has taken a very different view to the one he alleges she took in a rather partial quotation from evidence taken by the European Affairs Committee, which is now conducting an inquiry into data adequacy and its implications for the UK-EU relationship. We were told by Open Rights Group attendees at a recent meeting with the European Commission that it expressed concern to those present about the risk that the Bill poses to the EU adequacy agreement; this was not under Chatham House rules. It expressed this risk in a meeting at which a number of UK groups were present, which is highly significant in itself.
I mentioned the European Affairs Committee’s inquiry. I understand that the European Parliament’s Committee on Civil Liberties, Justice and Home Affairs has also given written evidence on its concerns about this Bill, its impact on adequacy and how it could impact the agreement. It put its arguments rather strongly. Has the Minister seen this? Is he aware of the written evidence that it has given to the European Affairs Select Committee? I suggest that he becomes aware of it and takes a view on whether we need to postpone Report until we have seen the European Affairs Select Committee’s report. If it comes to the conclusion that data adequacy is at risk, the Government will have to go back to the drawing board in a number of respects on this Bill. If the Select Committee report comes out and says that the impact of the Bill will not be data adequate, it would be rather foolish if we had already gone through Report by that time. Far be it from me not to want the Government to have egg on their face but it would be peculiar if they did not carefully observe the evidence being put to the European Affairs Select Committee and the progress that it is making in its inquiry. I beg to move.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for introducing his amendments so ably. When I read them, I had a strong sense of déjà vu as attempts by the Government to control the appointments and functioning of new regulators have been a common theme in other pieces of legislation that we have debated in the House and which we have always resisted. In my experience, this occurred most recently in the Government’s proposals for the Office for Environmental Protection, which was dealing with EU legislation being taken into by the UK and is effectively the environment regulator. We were able to get those proposals modified to limit the Secretary of State’s involvement; we should do so again here.
I very much welcome the noble Lord’s amendments, which give us a chance to assess what level of independence would be appropriate in this case. Schedule 15 covers the transition from the Information Commissioner’s Office to the appointment of the chair and non-executive members of the new information commission. We support this development in principle but it is crucial that the new arrangements strengthen rather than weaken the independence of the new commission.
The noble Lord’s amendments would rightly remove the rights of the Secretary of State to decide the number of non-executive members and to appoint them. Instead, his amendments propose that the chair of the relevant parliamentary committee should oversee appointments. Similarly, the amendments would remove the right of the Secretary of State to recommend the appointment and removal of the chair; again, this should be passed to the relevant parliamentary committee. We agree with these proposals, which would build in an additional tier of parliamentary oversight and help remove any suspicion that the Secretary of State is exercising unwarranted political pressure on the new commission.
The noble Lord’s amendments beg the question of what the relevant parliamentary committee might be. Although we are supportive of the wording as it stands, it is regrettable that we have not been able to make more progress on establishing a strong bicameral parliamentary committee to oversee the work of the information commission. However, in the absence of such a committee, we welcome the suggestion made in the noble Lord’s Amendment 256 that the Commons Science, Innovation and Technology Committee could fulfil that role.
Finally, we have tabled Amendment 259, which addresses what is commonly known as the “revolving door” whereby public sector staff switch to jobs in the private sector and end up working for industries that they were supposedly investigating and regulating previously. This leads to accusations of cronyism and corruption; whether or not there is any evidence of this, it brings the reputation of the whole sector into disrepute. Perhaps I should have declared an interest at the outset: I am a member of the Advisory Committee on Business Appointments and therefore have a ringside view of the scale of the revolving door taking place, particularly at the moment. We believe that it is time to put standards in public life back at the heart of public service; setting new standards on switching sides should be part of that. Our amendment would put a two-year ban on members of the information commission accepting employment from a business that was subject to enforcement action or acting for persons who are being investigated by the agency.
I hope that noble Lords will see the sense and importance of these amendments. I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Lord Harlech (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, for their amendments to Schedule 15 to the Bill, which sets out the governance structure of the new information commission.
The ICO governance reforms ensure its accountability to Parliament. Before I go any further, let me stress that the Government are committed to the ICO’s ongoing independence. We have worked closely with the Information Commissioner, who is supportive of the reforms, which they state allow the ICO
“to continue to operate as a trusted, fair and independent regulator”.
The Government’s view, therefore, is that this Bill is compatible with maintaining the free flow of personal data from Europe. These reforms have been designed carefully with appropriate safeguards in place to protect the information commission’s independence and ensure accountability before Parliament on important issues such as public appointments, money and accounts.
The Bill requires the Secretary of State to give the member a written statement of reasons for the removal and make public the decision to do so, ensuring accountability and transparency. This process is in line with standard practice for other UK regulators, such as Ofcom, which do not require parliamentary oversight for the removal of non-executives.
The chair can be removed only by His Majesty on an Address by both Houses, provided that the Secretary of State presents a report in Parliament stating that they are satisfied that there are serious grounds for removal, as set out in the Bill. This follows the process for the removal of the current Information Commissioner.
Greater performance measurement will help the ICO achieve its objectives and enable it to adjust its resources to prioritise key areas of work. This will also increase accountability to Parliament—a point raised by both noble Lords—organisations and the public, who have an interest in its effectiveness.
The Government are satisfied that these processes safeguard the integrity of the regulator, are in line with best practices for other regulators and, crucially, balance the importance of the information commission’s independence with appropriate oversight by the Government and Parliament as necessary. The regulator is, and remains, accountable to Parliament, not the Government, in its delivery of data protection regulation.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response, dusty though it may have been. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, is absolutely right; this Government have form in all areas of regulation. In every area where we have had legislation related to a regulator coming down the track, the Government have taken more power on and diminished parliamentary oversight rather than enhancing it.
It is therefore a little rich to say that accountability to Parliament is the essence of all this. That is not the impression one gets reading the data protection Bill; the impression you get is that the Government are tightening the screw on the regulator. That was the case with Ofcom in the Online Safety Act; it is the case with the CMA; the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, mentioned her experience as regards the environment. Wherever you look, the Government are tightening their control over the regulators. It is something the Industry and Regulators Committee has been concerned about. We have tried to suggest various formulae. A Joint Committee of both Houses was proposed by the Communications and Digital Committee; it has been endorsed by a number of other committees, such as the Joint Committee on the Draft Online Safety Bill, and I think it has even been commended by the Industry and Regulators Committee as well in that respect.
We need to crack this one. On the issue of parliamentary accountability for the regulator and oversight, the balance is not currently right. That applies particularly in terms of appointments, in this case of the commissioner and the non-executives. The Minister very conveniently talked about removal but this could be about renewal of term, and it is certainly about appointment. So maybe the Minister was a little bit selective with the example he chose to say where the control was.
We are concerned about the independence of the regulator. The Minister did not give an answer, so I hope that he will write about whether he knows what the European Affairs Select Committee is up to. I made a bit of a case on that. Evidence is coming in, and the relevant committee in the European Parliament is giving evidence. The Minister, the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, was guilty of this in a way, but the way that the data adequacy aspect is seen from this side of the North Sea seems rather selective. The Government need to try to try to put themselves in the position of the Commission and the Parliament on the other side of the North Sea and ask, “What do we think are the factors that will endanger our data adequacy as seen from that side?” The Government are being overly complacent in regarding it as “safe” once the Bill goes through.
It was very interesting to hear what the noble Baroness had to say about the revolving door issues. The notable thing about this amendment is how limited it is; it is not blanket. It would be entirely appropriate to have this in legislation, given the sensitivity of the roles that are carried out by senior people at the ICO.
However, I think we want to make more progress tonight, so I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Viscount Camrose
“Supplementary powers
23A The Commission may do anything it thinks appropriate for the purposes of, or in connection with, its functions.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment makes clear that the Information Commission has power to do things to facilitate the exercise of its functions.
Viscount Camrose
“(3) For the purposes of paragraph 7(3) of Schedule 12A to the 2018 Act (extension of chair’s term), the term of the person’s appointment as chair of the Information Commission is to be treated as a term beginning when the person began to hold the office of Information Commissioner.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment ensures that provision limiting the extension of a person’s term of appointment as chair of the Information Commission (in paragraph 7 of new Schedule 12A to the Data Protection Act 2018, read with section 205(2) of that Act) applies in the same manner to the transitional appointment of the current Information Commissioner as chair.
Baroness Kidron
“Offence to use personal data or digital information to create digital models or files that facilitate the creation of AI or computer generated child sexual abuse material(1) A person commits an offence if they—(a) collect, scrape, possess, distribute or otherwise process personal data or digital information with the intention of using it, or attempting to use it, to create or train a digital model which enables the creation of AI or computer generated child sexual abuse material or priority illegal content; (b) use personal data or digital information to create, train or distribute or attempt to create, train or distribute a digital file or model that has been trained on child sexual abuse material or priority illegal content, or which enables the creation of artificial intelligence or computer generated child sexual abuse material or priority illegal content;(c) collate, or attempt to collate, digital files or models based on personal data or digital information that, when combined, enable the creation of AI or computer generated child sexual abuse material or priority illegal content;(d) possess, or attempt to possess, a digital file or model based on personal data or digital information with the intention of using it to produce or gain access to AI or computer generated child sexual abuse material or priority illegal content.(2) For the purposes of this section, “artificial intelligence or computer generated child sexual abuse material or primary priority illegal content” includes images, videos, audio including voice, chatbots, material generated by large language models, written text, computer file and avatars.(3) A person who commits an offence under subsection (1) is liable to the sentences set out in section 160 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 and section 6 of the Protection of Children Act 1978 for the equivalent offences.(4) For the purposes of this section, “priority illegal content” is content that meets the definition of “priority illegal content” set out in section 59 of the Online Safety Act 2023.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment seeks to make the files trained on or trained to create “Child Sex Abuse Material” illegal.
Baroness Kidron (CB)
My Lords, I rise somewhat reluctantly to speak to Amendment 291 in my name. It could hardly be more important or necessary, but I am reluctant because I really think that the Minister, alongside his colleagues in DSIT and the Home Office, should have taken this issue up. I am quite taken aback that, despite my repeated efforts with both of those departments, they have not done so.
The purpose of the amendment is simple. It is already illegal in the UK to possess or distribute child sexual abuse material, including AI-generated or computer-generated child sexual abuse material. However, while the content is clearly covered by existing law, the mechanism that enables its creation—the files trained on or trained to create child sexual abuse material—is not. This amendment closes that gap.
Some time ago, I hosted an event at which members of OCCIT—the online child sexual exploitation and abuse covert intelligence team—gave a presentation to parliamentarians. For context, OCCIT is a law enforcement unit of the National Police Chiefs’ Council that uses covert police tactics to track down offender behaviour, with a view to identifying emerging risks in the form of new technologies, behaviours and environments. The presentation its officers gave concerned AI-generated abuse scenarios in virtual reality, and it was absolutely shattering for almost everyone who was present.
A few weeks later, the team contacted me and said that what it had showed then was already out of date. What it was now seeing was being supercharged by the ease with which criminals can train models that, when combined with general-purpose image-creation software, enable those with a sexual interest in children to generate CSAM images and videos at volume and—importantly—to order. Those building and distributing this software were operating with impunity, because current laws are insufficient to enable the police to take action against them.
In the scenarios that they are now facing, a picture of any child can be blended with existing child sexual abuse imagery, pornography or violent sexual scenarios. Images of several children can be honed into a fictitious child and used similarly or, as I will return to in a moment, a picture of an adult can be made to look younger and then used to create child sexual abuse. Among this catalogue of horrors are the made-to-order models trained using images of a child known to the perpetrator—a neighbour’s child or a family member—to create bespoke CSAM content. In short, the police were finding that the scale, sophistication and horror of violent child sexual abuse had hit a new level.
The laws that the police use to enforce against CSAM are Section 1 of the Protection of Children Act 1978 and Section 160 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988, both of which create offences in respect of indecent photographs or pseudophotographs of a child. AI content depicting child sexual abuse in the scenarios that I have just described is also illegal under the law, but creating and distributing the software models needed to generate them is not.
There are many services that allow anyone to take any public image and put it in a false situation. Although I have argued elsewhere that AI images should carry a mark of provenance, these services are not the subject of this amendment. This amendment is laser focused on criminalising AI models that are trained on or trained to create child sexual abuse material. They are specific, specialist and being traded with impunity. These models blend images of children—known children, stock photos, images scraped from social media or synthetic, fabricated AI depictions of children—with existing CSAM or pornography, and they allow paedophiles to generate bespoke CSAM scenarios.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, as ever, the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, has nailed this issue. She has campaigned tirelessly in the field of child sexual abuse and has identified a major loophole.
What has been so important is learning from experience and seeing how these new generative AI models, which we have all been having to come to terms with them for the past 18 months, are so powerful in the hands of ordinary people who want to cause harm and sexual abuse. The important thing is that, under existing legislation, there are of course a number of provisions relating to creating deepfake child pornography, the circulation of pornographic deepfakes and so on. However, as the noble Baroness said, what the legislation does not do is go upstream to the AI system—the AI model itself—to make sure that those who develop those models are caught as well. That is what a lot of the discussion around deepfakes is about at the moment—it is, I would say, the most pressing issue—but it is also about trying to nail those AI system owners and users at the very outset, not waiting until something is circulated or, indeed, created in the first place. We need to get right up there at the outset.
I very much support what the noble Baroness said; I will reserve any other remarks for the next group of amendments.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, I am pleased that we were able to sign this amendment. Once again, the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, has demonstrated her acute ability to dissect and to make a brilliant argument about why an amendment is so important.
As the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and others have said previously, what is the point of this Bill? Passing this amendment and putting these new offences on the statute book would give the Bill the purpose and clout that it has so far lacked. As the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, has made clear, although it is currently an offence to possess or distribute child sex abuse material, it is not an offence to create these images artificially using AI techniques. So, quite innocent images of a child—or even an adult—can be manipulated to create child sex abuse imagery, pornography and degrading or violent scenarios. As the noble Baroness pointed out, this could be your child or a neighbour’s child being depicted for sexual gratification by the increasingly sophisticated AI creators of these digital models or files.
Yesterday’s report from the Internet Watch Foundation said that a manual found on the dark web encourages “nudifying” tools to remove clothes from child images, which can then be used to blackmail them into sending more graphic content. The IWF reports that the scale of this abuse is increasing year on year, with 275,000 web pages containing child sex abuse being found last year; I suspect that this is the tip of the iceberg as much of this activity is occurring on the dark web, which is very difficult to track. The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, made a powerful point: there is a danger that access to such materials will also encourage offenders who then want to participate in real-world child sex abuse, so the scale of the horror could be multiplied. There are many reasons why these trends are shocking and abhorrent. It seems that, as ever, the offenders are one step ahead of the legislation needed for police enforcers to close down this trade.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, made clear, this amendment is “laser focused” on criminalising those who are developing and using AI to create these images. I am pleased to say that Labour is already working on a ban on creating so-called nudification tools. The prevalence of deepfakes and child abuse on the internet is increasing the public’s fear of the overall safety of AI, so we need to win their trust back if we are to harness the undoubted benefits that it can deliver to our public services and economy. Tackling this area is one step towards that.
Action to regulate AI by requiring transparency and safety reports from all those at the forefront of AI development should be a key part of that strategy, but we have a particular task to do here. In the meantime, this amendment is an opportunity for the Government to take a lead on these very specific proposals to help clean up the web and rid us of these vile crimes. I hope the Minister can confirm that this amendment, or a government amendment along the same lines, will be included in the Bill. I look forward to his response.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for tabling Amendment 291, which would create several new criminal offences relating to the use of AI to collect, collate and distribute child abuse images or to possess such images after they have been created. Nobody can dispute the intention behind this amendment.
We recognise the importance of this area. We will continue to assess whether and what new offences are needed to further bolster the legislation relating to child sexual abuse and AI, as part of our wider ongoing review of how our laws need to adapt to AI risks and opportunities. We need to get the answers to these complex questions right, and we need to ensure that we are equipping law enforcement with the capabilities and the powers needed to combat child sexual abuse. Perhaps, when I meet the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, on the previous group, we can also discuss this important matter.
However, for now, I reassure noble Lords that any child sex abuse material, whether AI generated or not, is already illegal in the UK, as has been said. The criminal law is comprehensive with regard to the production and distribution of this material. For example, it is already an offence to produce, store or share any material that contains or depicts child sexual abuse, regardless of whether the material depicts a real child or not. This prohibition includes AI-generated child sexual abuse material and other pseudo imagery that may have been AI or computer generated.
We are committed to bringing to justice offenders who deliberately misuse AI to generate child sexual abuse material. We demonstrated this as part of the road to the AI Safety Summit, where we secured agreement from NGO, industry and international partners to take action to tackle AI-enabled child sexual abuse. The strongest protections in the Online Safety Act are for children, and all companies in scope of the legislation will need to tackle child sexual abuse material as a priority. Applications that use artificial intelligence will not be exempt and must incorporate robust guard-rails and safety measures to ensure that AI models and technology cannot be manipulated for child sexual abuse purposes.
Furthermore, I reassure noble Lords that the offence of taking, making, distributing and possessing with a view to distribution any indecent photograph or pseudophotograph of a child under the age of 18 carries a maximum sentence of 10 years’ imprisonment. Possession alone of indecent photographs or pseudophotographs of children can carry a maximum sentence of up to five years’ imprisonment.
However, I am not able to accept the amendment, as the current drafting would capture legitimate AI models that have been deliberately misused by offenders without the knowledge or intent of their creators to produce child sexual abuse material. It would also inadvertently criminalise individual users who possess perfectly legal digital files with no criminal intent, due to the fact that they could, when combined, enable the creation of child sexual abuse material.
I therefore ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment, while recognising the strength of feeling and the strong arguments made on this issue and reiterating my offer to meet with her to discuss this ahead of Report.
Baroness Kidron (CB)
I do not know how to express in parliamentary terms the depth of my disappointment, so I will leave that. Whoever helped the noble Viscount draft his response should be ashamed. We do not have a comprehensive system and the police do not have the capability; they came to me after months of trying to get the Home Office to act, so that is an untruth: the police do not have the capability.
I remind the noble Viscount that in previous debates his response on the bigger picture of AI has been to wait and see, but this is a here and now problem. As the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, set out, this would give purpose and reason—and here it is in front of us; we can act.
Lord Clement-Jones
“Deepfakes depicting sexual offences or activity without consent(1) It is an offence for a person to intentionally create, alter, or otherwise generate a deepfake depicting an intimate act. (2) A person is not guilty of an offence by virtue of subsection (1) if they show the person or persons, being over the age of 18, depicted in the deepfake provided consent for the creation, alteration or generation of the deepfake.(3) Offences under this section are punishable either on conviction on indictment or on summary conviction.(4) A person convicted on indictment of an offence under this section is liable to imprisonment for a term of not more than ten years, or to a fine not exceeding the prescribed sum for the purposes of this Act or to both.(5) A person convicted summarily of an offence under this section is liable—(a) to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months; or(b) to a fine not exceeding the prescribed sum for the purposes of this Act.(6) The Secretary of State must by regulations prescribe the sum for the purposes subsections (4) and (5).(7) Regulations made under subsection (6) are subject to the affirmative procedure.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment would make it an offence to intentionally generate a deepfake depicting activity without consent.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, I will speak to all the amendments in this group, other than Amendment 295 from the noble Baroness, Lady Jones. Without stealing her thunder, I very much support it, especially in an election year and in the light of the deepfakes we have already seen in the political arena—those of Sadiq Khan, those used in the Slovakian election and the audio deepfakes of the President of the US and Sir Keir Starmer. This is a real issue and I am delighted that she has put down this amendment, which I have signed.
In another part of the forest, the recent spread of deepfake photos purporting to show Taylor Swift engaged in explicit acts has brought new attention to the use, which has been growing in recent years, of deepfake images, video and audio to harass women and commit fraud. Women constitute 99% of the victims and the most visited deepfake site had 111 million users in October 2023. More recently, children have been found using “declothing” apps, which I think the noble Baroness mentioned, to create explicit deepfakes of other children.
Deepfakes also present a growing threat to elections and democracy, as I have mentioned, and the problems are increasingly rampant. Deepfake fraud rates rose by 3,000% globally in 2023, and it is hardly surprising that, in recent polling, 86% of the UK population supported a ban on deepfakes. I believe that the public are demanding an urgent solution to this problem. The only effective way to stop deepfakes, which is analogous to what the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, has been so passionately advocating, is for the Government to ban them at every stage, from production to distribution. Legal liability must hold to account those who produce deepfake technology, create and enable deepfake content, and facilitate its spread.
Existing legislation seeks to limit the spread of images on social media, but this is not enough. The recent images of Taylor Swift were removed from X and Telegram, but not before one picture had been viewed more than 47 million times. Digital watermarks are not a solution, as shown by a paper by world-leading Al researchers released in 2023, which concluded that
“strong and robust watermarking is impossible to achieve”.
Without measures across the supply chain to prevent the creation of deepfakes, the law will forever be playing catch-up.
The Government now intend to ban the creation of sexual imagery deepfakes; I welcome this and have their announcement in my hand:
“Government cracks down on ‘deepfakes’ creation”.
This will send a clear message that the creation of these intimate images is not acceptable. However, this appears to cover only sexual image deepfakes. These are the most prevalent form of deepfakes, but other forms of deepfakes are also causing noticeable and rapidly growing harms, most obviously political deepfakes—as the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, will illustrate—and deepfakes used for fraud. This also appears to cover only the endpoint of the creation of deepfakes, not the supply chain leading up to that point. There are whole apps and companies dedicated to the creation of deepfakes, and they should not exist. There are industries which provide legitimate services—generative Al and cloud computing—which fail to take adequate measures and end up enabling creation of deepfakes. They should take measures or face legal accountability.
The Government’s new measures are intended to be introduced through an amendment to the Criminal Justice Bill, which is, I believe, currently between Committee and Report in the House of Commons. As I understand it, however, there is no date scheduled yet for Report, as the Bill seems to be caught in a battle over amendments.
The law will, however, be extremely difficult to enforce. Perpetrators are able to hide behind anonymity and are often difficult to identify, even when victims or authorities are aware that deepfakes have been created. The only reliable and effective countermeasure is to hold the whole supply chain responsible for deepfake creation and proliferation. All parties involved in the AI supply chain, from AI model developers and providers to cloud compute providers, must demonstrate that they have taken steps to preclude the creation of deepfakes. This approach is similar to how society combats—or, rather, analogous to the way that I hope the Minister will concede to the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, society will combat—child abuse material and malware.
Lord Leong (Lab)
My Lords, I speak to Amendments 293 and 294 from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, Amendment 295 proposed by my noble friend Lady Jones and Amendments 295A to 295F, also in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones.
Those noble Lords who are avid followers of my social media feeds will know that I am an advocate of technology. Advanced computing power and artificial intelligence offer enormous opportunities, which are not all that bad. However, the intentions of those who use them can be malign or criminal, and the speed of technological developments is outpacing legislators around the world. We are constantly in danger of creating laws that close the stable door long after the virtual horse has bolted.
The remarkable progress of visual and audio technology has its roots in the entertainment industry. It has been used to complete or reshoot scenes in films in the event of actors being unavailable, or in some cases, when actors died before filming was completed. It has also enabled filmmakers to introduce characters, or younger versions of iconic heroes for sequels or prequels in movie franchises. This enabled us to see a resurrected Sir Alec Guinness and a younger version of Luke Skywalker, or a de-aged Indiana Jones, on our screens.
The technology that can do this is only around 15 years old, and until about five years ago it required extremely powerful computers, expensive resources and advanced technical expertise. The first malicious use of deepfakes occurred when famous actors and celebrities, mainly and usually women, had their faces superimposed on to bodies of participants in pornographic videos. These were then marketed online as Hollywood stars’ sex tapes or similar, making money for the producers while causing enormous distress to the women targeted. More powerful computer processors inevitably mean that what was once very expensive rapidly becomes much cheaper very quickly. An additional factor has turbo-boosted this issue: generative AI. Computers can now learn to create images, sound and video movement almost independently of software specialists. It is no longer just famous women who are the targets of sexually explicit deepfakes; it could be anyone.
Amendment 293 directly addresses this horrendous practice, and I hope that there will be widespread support for it. In an increasingly digital world, we spend more time in front of our screens, getting information and entertainment on our phones, laptops, iPads and smart TVs. What was once an expensive technology, used to titillate, entertain or for comedic purposes, has developed an altogether darker presence, well beyond the reach of most legislation.
In additional to explicit sexual images, deepfakes are known to have been used to embarrass individuals, misrepresent public figures, enable fraud, manipulate public opinion and influence democratic political elections and referendums. This damages people individually: those whose images or voices are faked, and those who are taken in by the deepfakes. Trusted public figures, celebrities or spokespeople face reputational and financial damage when their voices or images are used to endorse fake products or for harvesting data. Those who are encouraged to click through are at risk of losing money to fraudsters, being targeted for scams, or having their personal and financial data leaked or sold on. There is growing evidence that information used under false pretences can be used for profiling in co-ordinated misinformation campaigns, for darker financial purposes or political exploitation.
In passing, it is worth remembering that deepfakes are not always images of people. Last year, crudely generated fake images of an explosion, purported to be at the Pentagon, caused the Dow Jones industrial average to drop 85 points within four minutes of the image being published, and triggered emergency response procedures from local law enforcement before it was debunked 20 minutes later. The power of a single image, carefully placed and virally spreading, shows the enormous and rapid economic damage that deepfakes can create.
Amendment 294 would make it an offence for a person to generate a deepfake for the purpose of committing fraud, and Amendment 295 would make it an offence to create deepfakes of political figures, particularly when they risk undermining electoral integrity. We support all the additional provisions in this group of amendments; Amendments 295A to 295F outline the requirements, duties and definitions necessary to ensure that those creating deepfakes can be prosecuted.
I bring to your Lordships’ attention the wording of Amendment 295, which, as well as making it an offence to create a deepfake, goes a little further. It also makes it an offence to send a communication which has been created by artificial intelligence and which is intended to create the impression that a political figure has said or done something that is not based in fact. This touches on what I believe to be a much more alarming aspect of deepfakes: the manner in which false information is distributed.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, for tabling the amendments in this important group. I very much share the concerns about all the uses of deepfake images that are highlighted by these amendments. I will speak more briefly than I otherwise would with a view to trying to—
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, I would be very happy to get a letter from the Minister.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
I would be happy to write one. I will go for the abbreviated version of my speech.
I turn first to the part of the amendment that would seek to criminalise the creation, alteration or otherwise generation of deepfake images depicting a person engaged in an intimate act. The Government recognise that there is significant public concern about the simple creation of sexually explicit deepfake images, and this is why they have announced their intention to table an amendment to the Criminal Justice Bill, currently in the other place, to criminalise the creation of purposed sexual images of adults without consent.
The noble Lord’s Amendment 294 would create an offence explicitly targeting the creation or alteration of deepfake content when a person knows or suspects that the deepfake will be or is likely to be used to commit fraud. It is already an offence under Section 7 of the Fraud Act 2006 to generate software or deepfakes known to be designed for or intended to be used in the commission of fraud, and the Online Safety Act lists fraud as a priority offence and as a relevant offence for the duties on major services to remove paid-for fraudulent advertising.
Amendment 295 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, seeks to create an offence of creating or sharing political deepfakes. The Government recognise the threats to democracy that harmful actors pose. At the same time, the UK also wants to ensure that we safeguard the ability for robust debate and protect freedom of expression. It is crucial that we get that balance right.
Let me first reassure noble Lords that the UK already has criminal offences that protect our democratic processes, such as the National Security Act 2023 and the false communications offence introduced in the Online Safety Act 2023. It is also already an election offence to make false statements of fact about the personal character or conduct of a candidate or about the withdrawal of a candidate before or during an election. These offences have appropriate tests to ensure that we protect the integrity of democratic processes while also ensuring that we do not impede the ability for robust political debate.
I assure noble Lords that we continue to work across government to ensure that we are ready to respond to the risks to democracy from deepfakes. The Defending Democracy Taskforce, which seeks to protect the democratic integrity of the UK, is engaging across government and with Parliament, the UK’s intelligence community, the devolved Administrations, local authorities and others on the full range of threats facing our democratic institutions. We also continue to meet regularly with social media companies to ensure that they continue to take action to protect users from election interference.
Turning to Amendments 295A to 295F, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for them. Taken together, they would in effect establish a new regulatory regime in relation to the creation and dissemination of deepfakes. The Government recognise the concerns raised around harmful deepfakes and have already taken action against illegal content online. We absolutely recognise the intention behind these amendments but they pose significant risks, including to freedom of expression; I will write to noble Lords about those in order to make my arguments in more detail.
For the reasons I have set out, I am not able to accept these amendments. I hope that the noble Lord will therefore withdraw his amendment.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that rather breathless response and his consideration. I look forward to his letter. We have arguments about regulation in the AI field; this is, if you like, a subset of that—but a rather important subset. My underlying theme is “must try harder”. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Leong, for his support and pay tribute to Control AI, which is vigorously campaigning on this subject in terms of the supply chain for the creation of these deepfakes.
Pending the Minister’s letter, which I look forward to, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Clement-Jones
“Data risks from systemic competitors and hostile actors(1) The Secretary of State, in consultation with the Information Commissioner, must conduct a risk assessment on the data privacy risks associated with genomics and DNA companies that are headquartered in countries they determine to be systemic competitors and hostile actors.(2) Within 12 months of the passage of this Act, the Secretary of State must present this risk assessment report to Parliament and consult the intelligence and security agencies on the findings, taking into account the need to not make public information critical to national defence or ongoing operations.(3) This risk assessment must evaluate—(a) the potential for genomic and DNA data to be exfiltrated outside of the UK,(b) the degree of access granted to foreign entities, particularly those linked to systemic competitors and hostile actors, to the genomic and DNA data collected within the UK,(c) the potential misuse of genomic and DNA data for dual-use or other nefarious purposes,(d) the implications for UK national security and strategic advantage,(e) the risks to the privacy and rights of UK citizens, and (f) the potential for such data to be used in a manner that could compromise the privacy or security of UK citizens or the national interest.(4) The risk assessment must include, but is not limited to—(a) an analysis of the data handling and storage practices of genomics companies that are based in countries designated as systemic competitors and hostile actors,(b) an independent audit at any company site that could have access to UK genomics data, and(c) evidence of clear disclosure statements to consumers of products and services from genomics companies subject to data handling and disclosure requirements in the countries they are headquartered.(5) This risk assessment must be conducted as frequently as deemed necessary by the Secretary of State or the Information Commissioner to address evolving threats and ensure continued protection of the genomics sector from malign entities controlled, directly or indirectly, by countries designated as systemic competitors and hostile actors.(6) The Secretary of State has the authority to issue directives or guidelines based on the findings of the risk assessment to ensure compliance by companies or personnel operating within the genomics sector in the UK, safeguarding against identified risks and vulnerabilities to data privacy.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment seeks to ensure sufficient scrutiny of emerging national security and data privacy risks related to advanced technology and areas of strategic interest for systemic competitors and hostile actors. It aims to inform the development of regulations or guidelines necessary to mitigate risks and protect the data privacy of UK citizens’ genomics data and the national interest. It seeks to ensure security experts can scrutinise malign entities and guide researchers, consumers, businesses, and public bodies.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, what a relief—we are at the final furlong.
The UK is a world leader in genomics, which is becoming an industry of strategic importance for future healthcare and prosperity, but, frankly, it must do more to protect the genomic sector from systemic competitors that wish to dominate this industry for either economic advantage or nefarious purposes. Genomic sequencing—the process of determining the entirety of an organism’s DNA—is playing an increasing role in our NHS, which has committed to being the first national healthcare system to offer whole-genome sequencing as part of routine care. However, like other advanced technologies, our sector is exposed to data privacy and national security risks. Its dual-use potential means that it can also be used to create targeted bioweapons or genetically enhanced military. We must ensure that a suitable data protection environment exists to maintain the UK’s world-leading status.
So, how are we currently mitigating against such threats and why is our existing approach so flawed? Although I welcome initiatives such as the Trusted Research campaign and the Research Collaboration Advice Team, these bodies focus specifically on research and academia. We expect foreign companies that hold sensitive genomics and DNA to follow GDPR. I am not a hawk about relations with other countries, but we need to provide the new Information Commissioner with much greater expertise and powers to tackle complex data security threats in sensitive industries. There must be no trade-off between scientific collaboration and data privacy; that is what this amendment is designed to prevent. I beg to move.
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)
The Committee will be relieved to know that I will be brief. I do not have much to say because, in general terms, this seems an eminently sensible amendment.
We should congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, on his drafting ingenuity. He has managed to compose an amendment that brings together the need for scrutiny of emerging national security and data privacy risks relating to advanced technology, aims to inform regulatory developments and guidance that might be required to mitigate risks, and would protect the privacy of people’s genomics data. It also picks up along the way the issue of the security services scrutinising malign entities and guiding researchers, businesses, consumers and public bodies. Bringing all those things together at the end of a long and rather messy Bill is quite a feat—congratulations to the noble Lord.
I am rather hoping that the Minister will tell the Committee either that the Government will accept this wisely crafted amendment or that everything it contains is already covered. If the latter is the case, can he point noble Lords to where those things are covered in the Bill? Can he also reassure the Committee that the safety and security issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, are covered? Having said all that, we support the general direction of travel that the amendment takes.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
I would be extremely happy for the Minister to write.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
Nothing makes me happier than the noble Lord’s happiness. I thank him for his amendment and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, for his points; I will write to them on those, given the Committee’s desire for brevity and the desire to complete this stage tonight.
I wish to say some final words overall. I sincerely thank the Committee for its vigorous—I think that is the right word—scrutiny of this Bill. We have not necessarily agreed on a great deal, but I am in awe of the level of scrutiny and the commitment to making the Bill as good as possible. Let us be absolutely honest—this is not the most entertaining subject, but it is something that we all take extremely seriously and I pay tribute to the Committee for its work. I also extend sincere thanks to the clerks and our Hansard colleagues for agreeing to stay a little later than agreed, although that may not even be necessary. I very much look forward to engaging with noble Lords again before and during Report.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and all the team. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Harlech, whose first name we now know; these things are always useful to know. This has been quite a marathon. I hope that we will have many conversations between now and Report. I also hope that Report is not too early as there is a lot to sort out. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and I will be putting together our priority list imminently but, in the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Viscount Camrose
“(3A) Regulations under this section made in consequence of section 183A of the 2018 Act (inserted by section 49 of this Act) may amend, repeal or revoke provision which refers to the data protection legislation (as defined in section 3 of the 2018 Act) as they could if the provision referred instead to the main data protection legislation (as defined in section 183A of the 2018 Act).”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment makes clear that regulations making amendments consequential on new section 183A of the Data Protection Act 2018 (inserted by clause 49 of the Bill) can remove provision which duplicates the effect of that section but which refers to the “data protection legislation” generally, rather than the “main data protection legislation”.
Viscount Camrose
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that subsection (4) of this clause is subject to subsection (2) of this clause, as well as subsection (3).
House of Lords
Death of a Member: Lord Field of Birkenhead
The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
My Lords, I regret to inform the House of the death of the noble Lord, Lord Field of Birkenhead, on 23 April. On behalf of the House, I extend our condolences to the noble Lord’s family and friends.
Family Reunion Visas: Gaza
(7 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)
My Lords, in any humanitarian situation, the UK must consider its resettlement approach in the round, rather than on a crisis-by-crisis basis. We use existing pathways in response to events to support British nationals, those settled here and their family members. At present, there are no plans to create a new immigration route for those affected by the security situation.
Lord Dubs (Lab)
There are Palestinian families here who would urgently like family reunion with their relatives in Gaza on a temporary basis, perhaps modelled on the Ukrainian scheme. People are in real difficulties. Would the Minister care to comment on this? People in Gaza cannot apply for a family reunion visa to join family in the UK without leaving Gaza—but they cannot leave Gaza without a visa. Surely we can do better than that.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, the safety of all British nationals affected by the conflict in Gaza continues to be our utmost priority, but individuals who are not British nationals should apply for a visa to enable them to enter the UK in the normal way—and of course much of the process is online. Individuals who are not British citizens must not travel to the UK without existing permission to enter or remain previously agreed.
Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, under the Ukrainian scheme, about 174,000 people came to the UK, and there were extensive categories of family relationships under that scheme. Can my noble friend the Minister outline whether the same categories apply for this family reunification scheme—and, if not, why not?
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
The Ukraine family scheme was a temporary visa approach rather than a refugee scheme. It is not a route to permanent resettlement; it formed part of the response that we made with other countries to the Russian Government’s unprovoked war against Ukraine. The Ukraine family scheme was developed in close consultation with the Government of Ukraine, who have been very clear that they would like their citizens to return to Ukraine when it is safe to do so. Obviously, similar discussions with the Government in Gaza would not be possible, so the two situations are not analogous.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab)
My Lords, how many people does the Minister think are online in Gaza to make such an application?
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
I am afraid that I am not terribly familiar with the internet in Gaza.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
Is the Minister aware that the immigration tribunal judges found the Home Office’s decision on this to be “irrational”? The concern is even deeper: the Home Office found itself able to expand the situation for those in Hong Kong who were under fear of persecution, but those who are in Gaza, who are in fear for their lives, the Home Office seems to be completely silent about. Therefore, there is a concern about double standards. Given the requirement on the occupying power, the Government of Israel, to ensure facilitation of the very documentation that the Minister said is necessary, what discussions has the Home Office had with its interlocutors in the Israeli Government to ensure that the visa process for documentation is facilitated?
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
I might dispute the noble Lord’s premise there: I am not sure that I would characterise it as an occupying power. I reiterate what I said earlier: British nationals and those family members can obviously apply using normal routes.
Baroness Gohir (CB)
My Lords, has the Minister made an assessment on how many students from Gaza studying here in the UK cannot go back to their homes because their homes have been obliterated? What financial and other support has been provided to those students?
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
I am afraid that I really do not have those statistics at hand, but I shall see if they exist.
Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)
I wonder whether I could interrupt the Question to pay a very brief tribute to Lord Field of Birkenhead. He was a man of the highest integrity, and MP for Birkenhead for many years—but it is his work on modern slavery that I refer to. He was responsible, with my help and that of the noble Lord, Lord Randall, for persuading Prime Minister Theresa May to have the Modern Slavery Act. He was the chairman of a small group, including me, which reviewed the work of that Act. He will go down in history as a great MP—he was only here briefly, unfortunately, through ill health—and a man who did a great deal on modern slavery.
Baroness Blower (Lab)
Can I draw the Minister’s attention to the fact that, in his opening question, my noble friend Lord Dubs specifically used the word “temporary”, and then prayed in aid the notion of “temporary” in supporting the Ukraine arrangements. Can the Minister think about the fact that what was being asked was whether we could find space in our hearts and systems to allow for family reunion from Gaza for those people in such dire straits, on a temporary basis?
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
I take the noble Baroness’s point—but, as I say, we keep all existing pathways in response to events under review.
Lord Coaker (Lab)
I join the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, in the tribute that she made to our noble friend Frank Field—I am sure that we all join with that.
Judicial review has found that the family of a Palestinian refugee can apply for a visa without the use of biometrics. The Home Office has said that it is complying with that, so can the Minister outline to the Chamber how it is complying, and whether that applies to all those who should seek a visa application from Gaza?
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
The noble Lord asks an important question. The judgment was handed down a couple of weeks ago; obviously, we have received the outcome and officials will provide advice very shortly to Ministers on how it will impact ongoing and future operations.
Baroness Bottomley of Nettlestone (Con)
My Lords, I join the comments about Lord Field. He was my first boss; he paid me £12 a week—I was overpaid. We campaigned for poverty reform with Ruth Lister— the noble Baroness, Lady Lister—the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, Lord Pakenham, and many others. He was a remarkable man of integrity and persistence, and quite contrary on occasion, but he made a formidable difference—and, of course, he was a graduate of the University of Hull.
Lord Newby (LD)
My Lords, can I revisit an answer that the Minister gave a moment ago? He said that Israel was not an occupying power in Gaza. My understanding, by looking at the FCDO website, is that the British Government’s formal position is that Israel is an occupying power in Gaza. Could he take this opportunity either to correct what he said or to explain why the Government have changed their policy?
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
If I spoke incorrectly, of course I correct it. I have not read the FCDO advice, but if that is what it says, then I correct the record.
Baroness Meacher (CB)
My Lords, I hope the House will forgive me if I follow the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Bottomley, about Lord Field. I worked with Frank Field for more than 50 years; he fought more than anybody else I know for people in this country who are poor and disadvantaged, and they have lost a treasure with his death yesterday.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, in responding to the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, the Minister referred to the Government making decisions about special visa schemes on a crisis-by-crisis basis. What criteria do the Government apply in making those judgments? Perhaps the Minister can point me to where it is written down, so that we can all see how the Government are making them.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
It very much depends on the circumstances and other factors. For example, there were separate arrangements made after earthquakes in places like Turkey and Syria.
Lord Morgan (Lab)
My Lords, is not the policy of issuing visas being used deliberately to cut back the number of immigrants in the country—particularly those from India—with very severe damage to, for example, research groups and universities? Could we have an undertaking that this policy will change?
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
This country is actually very generous: between 2015 and 2023, some 53,574 family reunion visas were granted to family members. We are the third most generous country in Europe, after Germany and Sweden. I do not really know what this Question has to do with universities.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, in response to an earlier question, the Minister gave a rather flippant answer when he said that he had no knowledge of the internet in Gaza. The question was serious; I ask that he reflects on his response and writes to noble Lords, and puts a copy in the Library.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
I disagree. How am I supposed to know how the internet runs in Gaza? It was not a flippant answer; it is factual.
Lord Cashman (Lab)
My Lords, can I press the Government to find the imagination to help those in Gaza seeking refuge under the most extraordinary, inhumane circumstances? It would do the Government and this country a great deal of good if they could reach out and do something positive.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
I absolutely take the noble Lord’s point, and we keep all systems and processes under review.
Energy: Welsh Government
(7 months ago)
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Baroness Wilcox of Newport
To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the case for stronger consultation and co-operation with the Welsh Government on energy policy to manage overlapping responsibilities in that area.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Callanan) (Con)
My Lords, the UK Government are committed to strong, effective co-operation with the Welsh Government on energy issues, supporting our shared energy security and net-zero objectives. We engage Welsh Ministers on a range of issues, and our support for the energy transition in Wales includes Great British Nuclear’s recent purchase of the Wylfa site, the ongoing HyNet project in north Wales and supporting the development of offshore wind in the Celtic Sea.
Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab)
My Lords, the port of Milford Haven brings in 20% of the UK’s energy. It is part of our critical UK infrastructure; there are huge opportunities here. The Welsh Government made £1 million available to support that emerging sector, yet the UK Government have just rejected the port’s bid for a share of £160 million to help develop the technology. Can the Minister please explain why the Government have left the port’s hopes on offshore wind high and dry, and what conversations the Government had with the Welsh Government before making this decision?
Lord Callanan (Con)
We have regular discussions with the Welsh Government. The noble Baroness neglected to say that Port Talbot was one of the two ports in the UK that was taken forward, with one in Scotland as well. She is being slightly unfair in that assertion.
Earl Attlee (Con)
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the UK burns about 50,000 tonnes of coal for the heritage steam sector, but due to the closure by the Welsh Government of the Ffos-y-Fran colliery, that coal now has to be imported from Colombia and South Africa, and increases emissions rather than reduces them? Will my noble friend the Minister have a chat with the appropriate Welsh Ministers about that?
Lord Callanan (Con)
The noble Earl makes an interesting point, and I am of course aware of the requirements of the heritage steam sector. We would be happy to take it up with the Welsh Government.
Lord Wigley (PC)
Does the Minister accept that over recent years, there has been immense frustration in Wales as projects involving tidal lagoons, floating offshore wind—as highlighted by the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, a moment ago—and inland hydro pump storage schemes have failed to progress, partly because of the split of responsibility between Westminster and Senedd Cymru? If the Government cannot get their act together, will they please devolve full responsibility to the Welsh Government, with the cash resources needed to drive forward these much-needed projects?
Lord Callanan (Con)
I am sorry that the noble Lord takes that attitude, because all projects across the UK are evaluated on the same basis. Of course, it is not possible to take forward every project, but the assertion that projects in Wales are somehow discriminated against is just not true. I could give him many alternative examples of projects in Wales—from nuclear, to hydrogen storage, to hydrogen allocation rounds, and CCUS projects—that are going forward.
Earl Russell (LD)
My Lords, does the Minister agree with the Institute of Welsh Affairs that Wales should retain, and local communities gain, greater income from the renewable energy developments that they host?
Lord Callanan (Con)
I am not familiar with those particular circumstances; I would be happy to chat to the noble Earl about it.
Lord Morgan (Lab)
My Lords, is this not an opportunity for further investment in west Wales, which by comparison with east Wales, which is closer to the English border, has suffered considerably in economic investment in recent years?
Lord Callanan (Con)
There are opportunities with the energy transition for investment in all communities throughout the UK, including, of course, in Wales. There are considerable investments in north Wales, and I mentioned some of those in south Wales as well. It is perfectly possible that onshore wind projects are being taken forward in west Wales, but I am not familiar with that particular area.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)
My Lords, further to the question from his noble friend Lord Attlee, is the Minister aware that his colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, and Huw Merriman, the Rail Minister, have written a joint letter to the First Minister of Wales asking him whether the Welsh Government would reconsider the closure of the Ffos-y-Fran pit in south Wales? This pit would provide coal for the heritage sector for many years to come. Would he chase that up and see whether we can get a positive answer to it?
Lord Callanan (Con)
I thank the noble Lord for that information. I was not aware of that, but now that he has mentioned it, I will of course chase it up.
Crime Statistics: Gender Identity
(7 months ago)
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Baroness Fox of Buckley
To ask His Majesty’s Government whether they plan to issue guidance on data to be collected throughout the criminal justice system by sex, as registered at birth, not gender identity, to ensure consistency of crime statistics across England and Wales.
Lord Roborough (Con)
Home Office guidance states that police forces should record an individual’s sex in the legal sense that is based on their birth certificate or gender recognition certificate. Separately, an individual’s gender identity can be collected. The Government have commissioned an independent review into the recording of data on biological sex and gender identity by public bodies and in research. The review is due to report in August and will inform our future approach to recording.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
I am glad to hear from the Minister, who I know is sincere on this, that the Government are taking this seriously, because accurate statistics are vital for evidence-based criminal justice policy. First, can I press the Minister to agree that, at present, official crime data is not accurate, credible or consistent? FoI requests to countrywide police forces reveal that they use a wide variety of differing recording practices; commonly record self-declared gender identity instead of birth sex, which is not the same as on your birth certificate; and that suspected and even convicted male rapists are recorded as female if they say that they are women.
Secondly, does such dubious data undermine public trust in the believability of crime figures, and hinder voters in informed debates about criminal justice? This is especially important in the lead-up to the elections for local police and crime commissioners.
Lord Roborough (Con)
My Lords, in answer to these concerns, the Government have recently commissioned Professor Alice Sullivan to conduct an independent review of data collection on biological sex and gender in research and statistics within public bodies. This will report back by August 2024. The Home Office will thoroughly review Professor Sullivan’s findings when they are available, and will take any necessary action to ensure accuracy with regard to police statistics.
The Home Office annual data requirement for police custody, ADR 149, which is a mandatory collection, requires police forces to record the sex of detainees. In providing data to compile the Home Office’s homicide index, police forces are required to record a suspect’s sex—male, female or not known. The suspect’s gender is recorded separately, and only if it is different from their sex.
Lord Sandhurst (Con)
My Lords, anyone, including a convicted criminal, can change name and gender, and then obtain a new passport and driving licence and, in effect, change identity for most practical purposes. Ordinarily, in the case of persons who have changed gender, the DBS certificate will display their acquired gender. Is my noble friend the Minister satisfied that it is not possible for a passport and driving licence to be reissued to show the new name and acquired gender—thereby to be presented by the holder to defeat an effective DBS check?
Lord Roborough (Con)
My Lords, the Government are satisfied with the steps they are taking. Some offenders, including sex offenders, are required to notify their personal details to the police, with a record of their national insurance number as well as their name, date of birth and bank details. It is a criminal offence not to notify the authorities. Similar provisions apply to registered violent offenders and terrorists. Additionally, the police may place flags with His Majesty’s Passport Office on offenders deemed to pose a risk to the public. Where a registered sex offender notified to HMPO in this manner applies for a passport, or to change their name, HMPO will consult the police before any passport is issued or name change agreed.
Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)
My Lords, would changing the whole system of crime recording, throughout the criminal justice system, not involve an inordinate amount of effort for very little return? I take the point the Minister made about an investigatory review of how recording is done, and I welcome that. Would it not also contravene the Equality Act 2010 and the human rights of anyone with a gender recognition certificate? Does the Minister agree with me that the whole criminal justice system should have other priorities on how it spends its limited resources?
Lord Roborough (Con)
My Lords, I see no reason why this needs to contradict the Equality Act, which is clear: it provides protection against discrimination, harassment and victimisation across a number of grounds known as the protected characteristics. We are committed to upholding Britain’s long-standing record of protecting the rights of individuals against unlawful discrimination. We keep any uncommenced provisions in the Act under review, and we are confident that the review that we have commissioned—reporting by August—will be consistent with the law.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, has raised this question on a number of occasions, and the Minister’s answer has been similar, where he has pointed to reviews by the UK Statistics Authority and other experts. Does the Minister agree with me that the issue of data collection goes wider than sex and gender identity? I am thinking particularly of how one’s parentage is recorded, when there are mothers, fathers, sperm donors, egg donors and birth mothers. This is a live issue, where one’s parentage is recorded. Will the UK statistics review take into account these additional complicating factors when considering how data is recorded and presented?
Lord Roborough (Con)
My Lords, while I am grateful for the noble Lord’s question, it requires more detail and goes beyond the brief that I have today, so I will write to him.
Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I welcome the review, and we all look forward to the results in August. Can the Minister tell us how we would make sure that the review will apply to the whole of the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland?
Lord Roborough (Con)
My Lords, I apologise, but I need to take that back to the department. I will then write to the noble Baroness.
Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)
My Lords, on gender data and empirical inquiries, will the Minister give the House an undertaking that we will never again have a situation, as we did with the Cass review, where NHS trusts and clinicians wilfully refused to release data to the inquiry, which was in the public interest and good?
Lord Roborough (Con)
My Lords, I am afraid that it is not for me to give that undertaking. I will have to take that back to the department and write.
BBC World Service: Finances
(7 months ago)
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Lord Liddle
To ask His Majesty’s Government, following the announcement of the resignation of the Director of the BBC World Service, what assessment they have made of the Service’s finances.
The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, our assessment of and formal agreement with the BBC guarantees the continued provision of all 42 World Service languages. We provide approximately a third of the funding for the World Service, with the remainder funded from the licence fee. Our funding totalled £305 million over the spending review period. The BBC is operationally independent and responsible for setting budgets. The DCMS is currently leading a review of BBC future funding, including that of the World Service, which it is expected to conclude by the autumn.
Lord Liddle (Lab)
My Lords, I put on record my admiration and respect for Liliane Landor, who has resigned from the job of her life as director of the World Service because she cannot defend the cuts that are now in prospect. Does the Minister agree with me that the World Service is one of our greatest soft power assets? Soft power is crucial to us and to the West, as Russia and China are spending billions and billions on deliberate misinformation. Does he also agree that, given that the value of the BBC licence fee has been cut in real terms by 30% since 2010, the only way to avert this situation is for the FCDO to give more money to the World Service in grant as a matter of urgency?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
I agree with the noble Lord on the value not just of the BBC World Service but of the role that the BBC plays, particularly in the current challenging environments on the global stage. We have seen additional funding and support being provided. The noble Lord will recall that last year we announced an additional £20 million of funding specifically to support the World Service on language provision. I note what the noble Lord said about future funding, which is exactly why, in a strategic way, our colleagues at the DCMS are conducting the overall funding review that I alluded to in my original Answer.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)
My Lords, having agreed that the World Service is a fundamental part of our soft power, does the Minister also recognise that, if that is so, it ought to be funded on a progressive form of taxation by the taxpayer, and not a regressive form of taxation by the licence fee payer?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, in his previous field as a diplomat, the noble Lord obviously had direct experience of the importance and support that the World Service provides. As I have said, these views are important and will be reflected on as we take forward the overall review of the BBC and its funding. I repeat that the BBC World Service provides a valuable service—as I have seen directly in the field through various travels—in a range of languages. Many people rely on the World Service, particularly at times of conflict. In areas such as Ukraine, and in the current conflict in the Middle East, it continues to play a vital role.
Lord Dobbs (Con)
My Lords, I welcome my noble friend’s description of how vital the World Service is. In the past the Government have described it as essential, invaluable and playing a vital role, and surely its role could not be more vital given the way the world is turning right now. The Government spend almost £12 billion a year on foreign aid, and the Prime Minister yesterday announced many more billions to be spent on defence. Surely there must be a better way for this vital tool of soft power to be funded than relying on the licence fee, where inevitably it has to compete with the likes of Gary Lineker and Peppa Pig.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
I am glad my noble friend did not ask me who I prefer watching out of Gary Lineker or Peppa Pig; it depends what mood I am in. On the point he raises, the integrated review in 2023 identified that the BBC World Service is vital. As we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, it is a vital component of soft power and for countering disinformation, and it is important that it is properly funded. The majority of the World Service is funded by the TV licence fee, but we gave that extra uplift of £20 million last year as part of our review and commitment.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, I hesitate to use the term soft power because, in a previous debate about the World Service, a Minister reminded us that data showed it was the
“top-rated international broadcaster for trustworthiness, reliability and depth of coverage”.—[Official Report, 10/3/22; col. 1551.]
When Russia invaded Ukraine, the people of Russia turned to the BBC. Two years ago, the Government gave emergency funding of £4.1 million to support that extension of journalism. Why do we have to wait for a further two years? Why are the Government not responding to the urgent need for trustworthy news going to Russia?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, I reiterate that I believe it is a vital service. When we use the term soft power, we are talking about different services that the United Kingdom offers to the world and the tools that are available. Of those, the BBC World Service provides exceptional news information. I know that in the case of the Hindi language, the World Service is one of the most effective and listened to channels in India. The noble Lord is right that the Government provided exceptional funding of £4.1 million, and my noble friend alluded earlier to the additional support we have provided to Ukraine in its fight against the illegal war Russia has waged on it. We will continue to see what tools are available to us, and we will work to ensure that the BBC World Service, along with a range of other soft power tools, is utilised effectively. I agree with the noble Lord that it is particularly effective in conflict situations.
The Lord Bishop of St Albans
My Lords, I notice that the funding agreement with the FCDO runs only until April 2025, which is not very far ahead. Can the Minister tell us whether the Government are considering, at the very least, taking back full funding of the World Service in the longer term rather than leaving it to the licence fee?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, I hear clearly the proposal from the right reverend Prelate, which has also been suggested by the director-general. I accept the premise of his question; that model existed until 2014. It is important that we make full leverage of funding. It is a challenging fiscal environment, but the Government have demonstrably shown that when we need to provide additional funding to the BBC World Service, we do so. The funding review being undertaken by the DCMS provides an opportunity to look specifically at the funding of the World Service.
Lord McNally (LD)
My Lords, this Question has a familiar ring to it. On 12 March, the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, said the World Service was
“one of the most powerful soft-power tools that this country possesses”.—[Official Report, 12/3/24; col. 1916.]
He was followed by a range of noble Lords, including the Foreign Secretary, agreeing with him, just as we do this afternoon. The problem is that, as the retiring director has pointed out—I associate myself with the words from the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, on her work—as things are, the World Service will not be able to deliver that soft power unless it is given proper long-term funding. Given the range of agreement across the House, surely there is the opportunity now for the Government to produce a long-term, well-funded financial plan for the World Service that can meet the desires of the country and this House.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, the noble Lord will know the deep affection I have for him and his views, to which I listen very carefully. He will accept that the DCMS review, as I said earlier, will be looking at the World Service specifically. Soft power around the world is needed at a time of conflict and need. I alluded earlier to the Gaza conflict. The BBC World Service provides important signposting at times of conflict, such as where to go and where to get information. That is a vital example of what it does. Of course, I acknowledge the opinions expressed in your Lordships’ House. As I said, the review of the whole BBC funding envelope will look at every element of BBC funding but also specifically at how we protect this valuable asset when it comes to our global power across the world.
Viscount Colville of Culross (CB)
My Lords, I declare an interest as a former BBC producer. The Government’s grant in aid to the BBC World Service will now not be decided until some unspecified time after the election. The present grant runs out in March next year. Does the Minister realise the havoc this uncertainty is playing with the BBC’s planning for the future of its world and language services?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, for all funding, I accept the principle that we need to provide certainty and continuity. As we move towards an election, it is very clear that, irrespective of any result or outcome of a given election, we have seen successive Governments over many years show their commitment to the BBC and, importantly, to the World Service. Our commitment is that we will stand by the BBC World Service if we continue to be chosen as the Government of the day in the election later this year. I assure noble Lords that the review being undertaken by colleagues in the DCMS is very much focused on providing the very certainty to which the noble Viscount alludes.
Artificial Intelligence (Regulation) Bill [HL]
Wednesday 24th April 2024
(7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Artificial Intelligence (Regulation) Bill [HL] 2023-24 View all Artificial Intelligence (Regulation) Bill [HL] 2023-24 Debates Read Hansard Text
Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)
My Lords, I understand that no amendments have been set down to this Bill and that no noble Lord has indicated a wish to move a manuscript amendment or to speak in Committee. Unless, therefore, any noble Lord objects, I beg to move that order of commitment be discharged.
Infected Blood Inquiry
(7 months ago)
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Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
My Lords, as a result of this scandal, two people die on average each week. It now seems that children, even babies, were experimented on in the 70s and 80s without their parents’ consent. As my right honourable friend Diana Johnson said yesterday:
“These disturbing revelations raise serious criminal and ethical issues for the NHS and the medical profession”.—[Official Report, Commons, 23/4/24; col. 802.]
Last week, the Government laid amendments to the Victims and Prisoners Bill after the Commons forced the Government to act, but we were disappointed to see that the Government are attempting to wriggle out of the three-month time commitment to introduce a mechanism for compensation payments to be made. My noble friend Lord Ponsonby has tabled an amendment that would reinstate the commitment to act within three months. This will be considered next week. Will the Government accept the amendment?
The Government accept the moral case for compensation, so can the Minister confirm what progress has been made on setting up the basis for a compensation scheme for those infected by contaminated blood and whether the Government will respond to every recommendation in the Infected Blood Inquiry report? How long after publication will the Government publish their full response to the recommendations? What preparatory work is being done by the Treasury on this issue, and will the Minister commit to making this publicly available?
We learned this morning of the sad passing of our loved and respected friend Lord Field of Birkenhead, a steadfast champion for justice on this and many other issues. I can do no better this afternoon than to consider Frank’s words. In his statement to the inquiry, he said:
“I do not know how to value the life of someone lost due to Factor 8, but I know that it is worth more than £20,000.”
He said this with reference to a meeting that he led in 1989. This has gone on for far too long. The time to act, as Frank said, has now long passed.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, the story of infected blood is one of unimaginable suffering, inflicted on thousands of individuals and families over decades. It is undoubtedly an unparalleled tragedy in the history of the NHS.
I pay tribute to the late Lord Field for all the work he did in championing the cause of so many people who required justice in one form or another. The Government are determined to deliver justice to the victims as swiftly as we can. The Infected Blood Inquiry’s final report will be published within a month, on 20 May. We will update Parliament through an Oral Statement on next steps as soon as possible thereafter. Meanwhile, as the noble Baroness has said, the Government have tabled amendments to the Victims and Prisoners Bill, which we will debate next week. They are designed to deliver on the Government’s commitment to pay compensation and will set up the legal framework to do that.
Baroness Brinton (LD)
My Lords, from the Liberal Democrat Benches we also pay tribute to Lord Field, who campaigned actively for infected blood victims from 1989. As with Lord Cormack, he will be greatly missed by the infected blood community.
Yesterday, Dame Diana Johnson rightly highlighted the appalling experiments which were carried out on an estimated 380 children. In particular, the parents of the children at Lord Mayor Treloar school were not even aware that their children were part of a research study. This was first highlighted by “World in Action” in 1975. Caroline Wheeler and the Sunday Times have campaigned rigorously on this for the last three decades, and to continue to remind people. It appears that the Government need reminding yet again that this is long overdue. I too have laid amendments to the Victims and Prisoners Bill for next week’s debate. The deadline for the compensation scheme is important, but victims need mandatory provision of support and legal advice. Interim payments are needed for those who have not yet received them: for those who are known about, within three months; for those who may not be confirmed, as soon after as possible.
Finally, we thank the Government for setting up the arrangements for the compensation body, but we hope that a High Court judge and a shadow board will also be appointed within three months.
Earl Howe (Con)
As the noble Baroness rightly says, it has been known for many years that many dozens of children with haemophilia at Treloar school in Hampshire were infected with HIV and hepatitis C in the 1980s through contaminated blood products. We are acutely aware of the distress and suffering of those individuals and of the bereaved families of those who have died. We expect Sir Brian Langstaff’s report to reveal the full circumstances of how this appalling tragedy came about.
The Government’s aim is to deliver compensation to those eligible as speedily as possible. Government amendments to the Victims and Prisoners Bill are designed to do this. One particular amendment will set up an arm’s-length body to deliver the compensation scheme, as recommended by Sir Brian. It will provide for interim payments to a particular group who have so far received no compensation, and for early commencement of the ALB and the interim payments. The ALB will be set up straightaway in shadow form, led by an interim chief executive, so that the practical work for delivering compensation can begin as soon as possible.
Viscount Hailsham (Con)
My Lords, in noting what my noble friend the Minister said, on the matter of compensation, I am sure he will agree that those who received inflected blood products, or their estates if they are deceased, should receive early compensation. That also applies to dependants who can establish clear financial loss. Beyond that, should we not be a bit cautious about compensation? Otherwise, the bill will be colossal.
Earl Howe (Con)
My noble friend is quite right to highlight what is likely to be a very significant impact on the public finances as a result of compensation in this area. It is important that any decisions on compensation funding are taken carefully. I think the House would expect the Government to work through the associated costs to the public sector while considering the needs of members of the community and the very far-reaching impacts this scandal has had on their lives.
Baroness Campbell of Surbiton (CB)
My Lords, I am sure the Minister appreciates the deep mistrust the community has regarding this Government. It has, for 40 years, struggled to have its voice heard and its needs met. Bearing this in mind, could he expand on the ways the Government intend to involve the community from here forward in all the developments? As there has frequently been such mistrust, we owe it to the community to involve it at every stage of the way.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, I fully recognise the point that the noble Baroness has just made. My right honourable friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office is preparing to engage with members of the infected and affected communities at the beginning of May in a succession of meetings. Further than that, we agree that it is critical for those infected and affected to have a role in the infected blood compensation authority itself. We intend to utilise the provision for committees and sub-committees to make sure that the community is represented on these groups. It is right that the exact committees and board make-up is defined once the shadow body is established, with the input of the infected blood community. The message I would give is that we want to work collaboratively with stakeholders to achieve the right outcome.
Lord Turnberg (Lab)
My Lords, this has been an unimaginable tragedy, and we must move to compensate those who have been affected by it as quickly and as well as we can. One part of it is worth thinking about, which is trying to ascribe malign intent to those who were involved in giving this product in the hope that it would stop the bleeding and potential death of children. That was the intent in using factor 8 at the time. It had tragic consequences and many mistakes were made, but we must not assume malign intent on the part of the people involved.
Earl Howe (Con)
The noble Lord makes a very good point. For me to comment further would be wrong. What we need to do is wait for Sir Brian Langstaff’s final report on 20 May, which should, we expect, reveal some of the underlying facts that the noble Lord alluded to.
Leasehold and Freehold Reform Bill
Wednesday 24th April 2024
(7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Leasehold and Freehold Reform Act 2024 View all Leasehold and Freehold Reform Act 2024 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 50-II(b) Amendments for Committee (Supplementary to the Second Marshalled List) - (24 Apr 2024)
Baroness Andrews
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment is related to another amendment in the name of Baroness Andrews inserting a new Clause (LRHUDA 1993: Non-development Guarantee).
Baroness Andrews (Lab)
My Lords, in moving this amendment I shall also speak to Amendment 24. These might seem to be rather arcane amendments; Amendment 23 is a technical amendment and Amendment 24 is the substantial point and a proposed new clause. This might look like an arcane point but it is a very significant one and it is simple to correct. The amendment asks the Government to act on a promise to remove a significant blockage, which at the moment increases the cost of enfranchisement to leaseholders who are threatened with upward extensions to blocks of flats and have to pay the freeholder extra for the possible profit he might have made had he chosen to develop. The proposed new clause, although detailed— I apologise for the length of my speaking note—would remove the blockage. I am extremely grateful to noble Lords around the Committee for supporting this, and to the Minister, who has already met me. We all agreed that this is something that must be put right in the Bill.
I declare an interest as a leaseholder in a block of flats that has been under threat of an upward extension for not two years but five years. The consequent blight and anxiety have been considerable. Asking for compensation for not extending upward is now an accessible and popular option for freeholders looking for more profit, especially when it falls under the relaxed requirements of permitted development. That means that there would be no automatic planning hearing, and often what would count as a major development slips by for determination simply by planning officers. There is no requirement for affordable housing, friendly accommodation that would help disabled people, or considerations of planning issues such as the impact on structural stability or protection from massive disturbance for residents.
Given that upward extension can be authorised in wider circumstances than the normal planning rule, it is estimated that there are about 2.2 million custom-built private sector leasehold flats in blocks where development value—for example, for upward extension—could be an issue, and therefore where leaseholders might face this additional obstacle to enfranchisement. There are certainly many people already affected by upward development in London alone.
The current key legislation is paragraph (5) of Schedule 6 to the Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act 1993. It defines development value in relation to premises to be enfranchised as an
“increase in the value of the freeholder’s interest in the premises which is attributable to the possibility of demolishing, reconstructing, or carrying out substantial works of construction on, the whole or a substantial part of the premises”.
To give a graphic illustration, in our own situation in my block of flats, when faced with a development we were not consulted on and did not want, we sought to enfranchise ourselves. The cost was originally estimated at £750,000 for 103 flats. Now the development value has been added, that has shot up to £1.75 million. We can no longer raise the funds and we cannot buy the freehold. What has shocked me most as I have pursued the Government on this point is that the impact assessment on upward extension of permitted development shows that the Government actually knew that this would happen. They anticipated that upward extensions would generate freeholder profits to the tune of £530 million in land value uplift, even without any actual development. Moreover, the impact statement recognised that this may make it more expensive for leaseholders to enfranchise.
To their credit, the Government realised that there was something wrong, especially since it would contradict the policy intentions of this Bill to make enfranchisement cheaper. So they referred it to the Law Commission, which reported in 2020 on options to make enfranchisement cheaper and easier. In option 9, it said that:
“When exercising enfranchisement rights, and in order to reduce the premium payable where there is development value, leaseholders could be given the ability to elect to take a restriction on future development of the property”.
The Government accepted the option. On 11 January 2021, in the House of Commons, Robert Jenrick promised in a Written Statement:
“Leaseholders will also be able to voluntarily agree to a restriction on future development of their property to avoid paying ‘development value’”.—[Official Report, Commons, 11/1/21; col. 10WS.]
Nothing would give us more pleasure in my block than a promise not to develop.
Even more to their credit, this solution was signposted in the impact statement on this Bill, in Annex 2, at paragraph 12, which recognises that the prospect of paying development value can make enfranchisement “prohibitively expensive”, and contemplates that there will be a new right for an option not to pay development value on the condition that leaseholders guarantee not to develop themselves. So I must ask the Minister this: with all these assurances having been given, where is this new clause? What has happened to the policy commitment?
Lord Best (CB)
My Lords, I support Amendments 23 and 24 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews. I can imagine the anguish that must be felt by leaseholders in blocks of flats who are facing the disruption of one or even two new storeys being built on the roof of their flats. With freeholders now having permitted development rights for upward extensions, residents face the disruption, noise and hassle of builders, lorries, cranes, skips, scaffolding and so on for months—and now they face the prospect of being unable to buy the freehold of the block because development, or the possibility of upward development, adds to the value of the block and can make enfranchisement prohibitively expensive. The extra value of adding new storeys, or the compensation demanded for not developing where there is potential to add them, generates additional freeholder profits but makes enfranchisement unaffordable, yet the Leasehold and Freehold Reform Bill is all about giving leaseholders a better deal and easier access to enfranchisement.
I note that the previous Secretary of State promised to fix this specific problem through a clause in the Bill enabling leaseholders in a block to agree together that no upward extension should take place. In this way, they remove the extra value for the freeholder. It seems that in the drafting of the Bill the promised new clause, originally an option proposed by the Law Commission, has got lost. So, on behalf of the 2 million-plus lease- holders who could be affected, I strongly support the amendments from the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, which would fulfil the Government’s earlier promise.
Baroness Thornhill (LD)
My Lords, I suppose I could say “#UsToo”. I support these amendments, which are simple in purpose, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, who summed them up thoroughly, clearly and personally. As things stand under PDR, a freeholder can add two storeys to their existing building as a matter of right, with no planning permission needed: as I look round Watford, I can see evidence of that with my own eyes. But I also know that that can have very serious consequences. As well as the inconvenience of the building work going on for as long as it takes, you also discover that the top-floor flat that you paid a premium for is now worth less as you are a middle-floor flat. Then there is the pressure on communal space and amenities, including the dreaded bin store and the state thereof.
Adding two more storeys to a presumably well-planned block of flats, for a set number of residents, is not consequence-free. But the consequences are absolutely trivial compared with the knock-on effects of such development on the Government’s own stated aim, which is to encourage more leaseholders to buy their freehold. This is an additional and often insurmountable obstacle. It significantly raises the cost of enfranchisement, as has been said. The value of the block will have gone up. The leaseholders are now required to pay more for their freehold. In many parts of the country, this takes it way out of reach, as in the noble Baroness’s case.
The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, very thoroughly cited a positive trail of support: all the right noises from the Secretary of State in 2021, the Government’s complete recognition of the dilemma and a real promise of the ability to look into some restriction.
It is clear that there is a policy conflict here: the need for more homes, which we all agree on, versus the enfranchisement of leaseholders. As things stand, the homes policy is top trumps. Can the Minister advise on whether there will be a review of PDRs in general, including focusing on unintended consequences such as this and whether there is a way to sort this out in the leaseholder’s favour in the Bill? At the moment, it feels as if the freeholders are still very much holding all the aces and current residents have no voice at all in this significant change to their environment and, possibly, their life chances and finances.
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend Lady Andrews for the collaborative way in which she has prepared and worked on her amendment, and drawn the attention of the House to what seems to be an omission from the Bill. We believe this needs to be rectified and my noble friend has not only set out, with her usual thorough approach and eloquence, exactly what the issue is, but has also proposed a straightforward and elegant solution, which we support.
My noble friend describes the Law Commission report as adopted by the Government in January 2021. Indeed, the government press release of January 2021 indicated that the Bill would strongly take account of this government commitment to release leaseholders from the straitjacket of hope of future development value. I quote from that press release:
“Leaseholders will also be able to voluntarily agree to a restriction on future development of their property to avoid paying ‘development value’”.
This is based on a Law Commission suggestion, which clearly indicates the direction of travel and which we believe the Government have accepted. To quote from the Law Commission recommendation:
“Premiums would be reduced at the date of the freehold acquisition claim. If leaseholders subsequently decided that they wanted to develop, they would pay a portion of any profit received on a subsequent development to the landlord, rather than (as at present) having to pay development value in respect of a speculative future possibility of development”.
The Law Commission also set out clearly the principle that leaseholders should not need to have to negotiate on a piecemeal basis for this restriction but should be granted it by right. The commission refers to leaseholders of flats acquiring the freehold to their block and states that,
“as they would not be required to pay the landlord an additional sum to reflect the potential to develop their properties, leaseholders would no longer be required to negotiate with the landlord to create such a restriction; rather, they would be entitled to demand such a restriction be included”
and
“disputes, negotiation and litigation about development value would be reduced”.
The Law Commission clearly believed that the election to take a restriction on development outweighed the disadvantages put forward by other consultees and that such an election was eminently possible to implement where there was agreement among leaseholders.
I also point out that this issue arises, in part, from yet another unintended consequence of the permitted development regime—a point mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill—on which I have made my views clear in your Lordships’ House in the past. I am not an unequivocal fan of PD. Permitted development removes the step of local accountability through the planning system, often the contribution to local community infrastructure and almost always the contribution to local affordable housing which would be required through traditional planning applications.
At its worst, permitted development drives a coach and horses through local plans, resulting in residential property in inappropriate areas and buildings, and in taking buildings out of commercial use where it may not be appropriate to do so. In the case of the subject of this amendment, its very existence can create an added financial pressure on those wishing to exercise their enfranchisement rights. That is another reason why we believe that the solution proposed by my noble friend Lady Andrews delivers an equal and justifiable right to leaseholders.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Baroness Scott of Bybrook) (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, for her Amendments 23 and 24 on development value. I also thank her very much for meeting me on this subject.
The amendments would introduce a scheme where enfranchising leaseholders would not pay development value if they guaranteed that they would not develop for a period of 10 years. Under the current law, lease- holders are sometimes required to pay development value when collectively enfranchising a block of flats. This is the value of the potential future development of the property, such as through adding another storey to the building, as we have heard. We recognise that development value can make the cost of enfranchisement prohibitively high.
We are committed to bringing forward a workable scheme and are exploring this area further. It is, as we have found, however, an area fraught with loopholes and technical detail. To be honest, it will take us time to get this right.
Before I finish, I want to bring up permitted development, because all noble Lords have brought this up. As noble Lords probably know, the Government have recently consulted on making changes to various permitted development rights. The consultation ran for eight weeks from 13 February to 9 April. We are considering the responses and I am sure we will have a debate on those in this House in due course.
The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, is right about this issue. We know about it and we support her, but it is difficult. I would like to meet her again, and anybody else who would like to come, to go through her amendments in detail and take things forward in that way.
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
Could the Minister tell the Committee whether the problem that the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, has defined could be resolved by removing permitted development rights altogether on these blocks of flats? This goes back to what was the case. If any development was proposed, it had to go through the normal application to the local planning authority.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
I do not think that would be a sensible solution, because there might be times when permitted development might be the correct thing to do and everybody might be happy about it, including those leaseholders who have enfranchised. We need to take this steadily because it is fraught with complexity.
Baroness Andrews (Lab)
I am extremely grateful to everyone who has supported the amendment, especially the noble Baroness on my Front Bench. I am also particularly grateful to the Minister. I understood her to say that the Government are committed to bringing forward a workable scheme to deal with this problem, which is exactly what I wanted to hear. I know it must be fraught with difficulties. There are lots of rights and planning issues involved. There is a whole nest of issues that would have to be addressed. The important thing is that it be in line with the timetable for the Bill. Perhaps she will be able to say more about this when we meet, but I hope that it will be either aligned in the timetable, so that there is no more confusion and we can get this tracked as soon as possible, or, if it requires legislation, in the Bill. I take the point, and I would be very happy to meet her—and to take in with me an army, and its advisers.
I have one further reflection on the PDR review. I did my homework—I did what the Minister said, and I saw whether I could use the current PDR review as a way of raising this, but it does not allow me to do that; it is too narrow in scope. Therefore, in fact we need a proper review of PDR, because the implications are so varied and wide. If the Government could commit to that, there would be a lot of political capital in it. In the meantime, I am happy to leave this amendment, and we will see and wait on progress.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook
“(1A) If section 3(3) of the LRA 1967 applies to the current lease (successive leases treated as a single lease), sub-paragraph (1) is to apply only if the one of those leases which is in effect at the valuation date is a market rack rent lease.”Member's explanatory statement
This modifies the application of paragraph 8 where successive leases are “chained” to constitute a long lease under the LRA 1967.
Lord Howard of Rising
Lord Howard of Rising (Con)
I speak to Amendments 26 and 27 in my name, focusing on the measures in this Bill relating to marriage value which, as it stands, would allow leaseholders with leases of 80 years or fewer to acquire freeholder rights without paying a fair share of the marriage value to the existing freeholder.
Marriage value, in relation to leasehold enfranchisement, is set out in the Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act 1993, and defined as the financial benefit that results from merging the freeholders’ and leaseholders’ interests in a residential property. Under the 1993 Act, and reaffirmed in the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002, 50% of the marriage value is payable by the leaseholder to the freeholder when the unexpired term of an existing lease is under 80 years.
Handing over the full benefit of marriage value to leaseholders without due compensation will have wide-ranging effects, but the most damaging and significant is the threat to property rights. Our economy is built on property rights. If the ownership of property is no longer secure, because it can be taken away without compensation, where does that leave us? If the Bill goes through unamended, it will set a dangerous precedent for Governments to transfer wealth arbitrarily. What we are looking at today could be the thin end of the wedge. I am not suggesting that government actions would escalate immediately, but any power given to government will be used to its full extent sooner or later, however benign the original intention. Do not forget that income tax started out as a temporary measure at 2.5p in the pound, and has reached as high as 100%
On top of the principled concerns that I have set out, there are a number of practical ones. The assets set to be transferred as a result of these measures have a value of £7.1 billion, and it is likely that some of that value is being used as security for loans. Do His Majesty’s Government know how much of the affected property is tied up in this way, and do they know how the banking regulatory authority feels about, what would become, unsecured loans, or the possible consequent impact on banks’ capital requirements?
The Government’s impact assessment states there are 4.8 million leasehold properties in England, of which only 385,400 have leases under 80 years. Of those 385,400 leases, the bulk of the value is located in London and the south-east. Despite the Government’s noble ambition to support aspirational home owners, I understand that in London, 60% of leaseholders benefiting from this change in policy would be private investors, of which 10% to 25% are based overseas. At the same time, many of the freeholders whose assets would be removed are charities or pension funds which have invested to cover their long-term liabilities.
There is also a significant impact on the Exchequer. Under the status quo, any financial gain made by freeholders when leases are sold is taxable. If all the financial gain is given to the leaseholder, a good proportion of the tax that would have been due will be sheltered by the exemption of disposal of a principal private residence. The loss to the Exchequer under this consequence alone has been calculated at £l billion.
Finally, there is the problem with human rights legislation. One of the founding principles of the European Convention on Human Rights is the protection of property. The lack of compensation for freeholders under the processes set out in the Bill challenges the expectation that parties should be fairly compensated for losses resulting from expropriation or state control of use. Whatever government lawyers say, there is bound to be a difference of opinion. In fact, the Government’s own legal advice described it as “finely balanced”. Do your Lordships imagine for a moment that this arbitrary transfer of property without proper compensation being paid will not be fought through the courts to the highest level? It will cost the Government a small fortune and freeze the market in leasehold properties, as present leaseholders will be reluctant to sell while there is a chance of greater value in the future.
My amendments are simple. They preserve the existing arrangements only for leases with an unexpired term under 80 years, leaving the 95% of leaseholders who have leases of more than 80 years to benefit from the Government’s proposals, even when their term drops below 80 years. This is a fair balance. I hope my noble friend the Minister will consider my amendments carefully and from a point of principle. I would welcome further discussions to fine-tune the details so that we can ensure that this policy works for everyone. I beg to move.
Baroness Deech (CB)
My Lords, I am pleased to lend my support to the noble Lord, Lord Howard, and have put my name to these amendments. I have three short points to make. One is that phasing out in this area must be right. The second is that we should treat retrospective legislation very suspiciously. Thirdly, it cannot be right to deprive people of their property without compensation.
Lord Moylan (Con)
My Lords, it is a privilege to speak after the noble Baroness, with her depth of knowledge about this subject, and my noble friend Lord Howard of Rising, who did me a number of favours. First, he saved me from any obligation to explain the meaning of marriage value. Secondly, he made a moderate and temperate case for his amendment when my argument might be expressed in a somewhat less moderate and well-tempered manner, because I feel a real sense of outrage about what is being proposed.
As my noble friend has explained, marriage value is a real financial asset. His Majesty’s Government say that they are abolishing it. They are not abolishing it; they are, in effect, transferring, at the stroke of a pen, value from the freeholder to the leaseholder without any compensation. It is, simply, expropriation. My amendment, which is a probing amendment—I would not expect it to be part of the Bill—obliges the Secretary of State to pay compensation to those who have lost out as a result. Of course, I really want the Government to scrap the provision itself, rather than for compensation to be paid, and I would not expect my amendment to be a practical policy. It is a probing amendment to raise the question about expropriation without compensation.
I want to make three broad points. There are genuine evils in the leasehold system. I made it clear at Second Reading that there were things that I support in the Bill. For example, it was scandalous that in recent years some housebuilders sold leasehold houses with rapidly escalating ground rents, which they then securitised in order to increase their capital receipts. Also, it is scandalous the way that many freeholders are implementing their obligations in relation to the cladding crisis; people are genuinely suffering as a result.
However, how many of these evils are actually being addressed by removing marriage value from the calculation of the enfranchisement premium, or the premium paid for extending a lease? It is not germane to the main evils that the Bill has been advanced as addressing.
Expropriation of this character implies some wrongdoing on the part of the person whose assets are being expropriated. It requires a high test. Noble Lords will have noticed that even in the case of the friends of Putin, we have been sensitive and careful about expropriation. We have frozen assets, but when it comes to whether we should expropriate them and give them to Ukraine or do whatever useful stuff we might do with that money, we all draw back from it because of the legal consequences. Here, we are perfectly happy to expropriate assets and hand them around the market without any consideration, and with very few people rising to protest about it, even in your Lordships’ House.
I believe that the Secretary of State said that he sees this as an act of justice, but what justice is involved in transferring wealth from a group of people who include, as my noble friend has said, charities and pension funds to leaseholders, who in many cases are frightfully rich? We will shortly come to amendments in the name of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester which deal specifically with charities, which I have put my name to. I live in Kensington, and as I declared at Second Reading, I live in a flat on a long leasehold. However, there are many people around Kensington with very expensive properties who are salivating at the prospect of this going through. This is not substantially helping the poor and middle classes; it is going to transfer huge amounts of wealth to people with long leases. The more valuable the flat, the bigger the benefit that they are going to get from it. Where is the justice in all this? I simply do not understand how that point can be made.
My second point relates to the European Convention on Human Rights, on which I do not claim to be an expert. I have a suspicion that my noble friend, when she rises to answer, will say that in respect of Article 1 of the first protocol—to which the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, has referred with such learning—similar cases in the past have been taken to the court, and that the landowners, the freeholders, have lost. Therefore, the Government are certain that this will pass that test. I am, of course, wholly unqualified to comment on the legal merits of the case in either way. However, even if it did pass that test, is this something that should pass the test in England, as far as the older rights that we have inherited are concerned? This is principally England that we are talking about, with its tradition of respect for private property and not implementing retrospective law or seizure of assets without very good reason. I would suggest that it does not pass the test. Even the Law Society—the “leftie lawyers”, as they are often referred to, which is not a phrase that I would use, and I hope Hansard will put that in quotation marks—is concerned about the damage that this will do to the reputation of English law.
My final point is addressed to my fellows on these Benches, who take the Conservative Whip. Are we and our noble friends on the Front Bench here to expropriate property without compensation, without justice, without an argument, or without there being serious wrongdoing on the part of the person whose assets are seized? Is this what we came into this House to do? I do not think it is. This is something that the Government need to take away and rethink very seriously, because it is wrong, it smells, and it is something that we should have nothing to do with.
Lord Truscott (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I declare an interest as a long-standing leaseholder, as I have done before. I support the expressed view of His Majesty’s Government on abolishing marriage values—I take a somewhat different view from that of the noble Lord, Lord Moylan—so making lease extensions cheaper and easier. I therefore oppose all the amendments in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, and others, the subsequent amendment in the names of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester and the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, plus the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Borwick, which we will come to later.
All these amendments impact on the issue of marriage value. I know that your Lordships’ House debated marriage value to some extent at Second Reading, but it is clear to me that reform is long overdue. I will not repeat the discussion that we had at Second Reading about the definition of marriage value. I must tell your Lordships’ House that, as a long-standing leaseholder, I have extended the lease of two properties in two different apartment blocks. I do not know how many noble Lords have gone through the process, but it is quite something to go through.
The current process is a farce—a piece of theatre designed to enrich everyone but the leaseholder, who pays all the costs. First, the freeholder comes up with an imagined figure of the future value of a property which bears no resemblance whatever to market reality. Basically, think of a figure and double it, and that is what your freeholder comes up with. The hapless leaseholder then employs a valuer and solicitor, and so does the freeholder, and the negotiation dance begins. The leaseholder ends up paying much less than the original premium—the original figure—but an awful lot of money in fees.
For the leaseholder, the whole process is uncertain, expensive and stressful. For the freeholder and associated professionals, it is lucrative, and their bread and butter. The current lease extension process is designed to protect the freeholder’s long-term interests at the expense of the leaseholder. It is nothing to do with transferring wealth—we keep hearing this figure of £7 billion being transferred—and everything to do with retaining it, as understandable as that may be.
Several of London’s great estates have maintained their property empires over hundreds of years by exploiting the system and making leasehold extension, or enfranchisement, extremely difficult, opaque and tedious. Leaseholders’ insecurity and uncertainty provide freeholder security. The more freeholders keep control of leases, and discourage extensions, the more they can protect their accrued wealth, and that is really what the debate is about today.
I do not intend to repeat what I said a couple of days ago in your Lordships’ House about the Church of England’s feudal property empire, and the work that it does with charities, except to say that it is a multi-billion-pound business, and, like all businesses, the Church will fight to protect its interests as one of the country’s leading landowners. Abolishing marriage value could, of course, affect all that.
I do not accept all the doom-laden warnings that we have heard from, for example, the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising. We have heard such dire warnings before about the impact this could have. We heard the same from the pension funds—remember that they were saying that the abolition of ground rent would cost them tens of billions of pounds. Well, just today, the Society of Pension Professionals and its chair have said that this is exaggerated and overplayed. In fact, the scale, relative to total assets, is probably not that significant in the long run. I think we will find the same when it comes to marriage value.
I know that a lot of people, including the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, who is very experienced legally in these matters, mentioned the European Convention on Human Rights. A number of major estates and property owners are citing that. I had a hedge fund lobby me, saying that their human rights would be breached under the ECHR were marriage value to be abolished. I do not think the great British public will be awfully sympathetic about hedge funds’ human rights being breached because some people want to reform leasehold and marriage value. In fact, I heard today from noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, a wonderful case for an opt-out from the ECHR. If billionaires and hedge funds are going to hide behind the ECHR to prevent reform, I think it is a good idea to opt out—maybe some of the noble Lord’s colleagues in GB News would support that as a proposal.
Some say that there will just be a transfer of wealth from one group of rich people to another. There is obviously a certain amount of truth in that—the properties owned by people in central London, whether they are local or foreigners, are expensive—but if you abolish marriage value you will make the housing market more transparent and bring many more properties on to the market, thereby providing more homes. The problem with short-lease properties—I have found this myself—is that they are often unsaleable and un-mortgageable. That means that they can be purchased only by cash. Often, they remain short-lease properties because, as I have already described, extending the lease is a complicated process, lacks transparency and is prohibitively expensive, so they clog up the market. There are an awful lot of short-lease properties, which could be opened up to the market as a whole.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Truscott, explained very well what I would have liked to say, so “hear, hear” to that. I was beginning to worry that the debate might be getting a bit dull—until the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, spoke. He so infuriated me that I feel I have to say something. I am not able to stay for the rest of the evening, but I wanted to clarify a number of things.
It is true that there are some people who own lease- hold flats who are not poverty stricken, but the characterisation of the 5 million leaseholders in this country as wealthy is ludicrous. The main reason why people—certainly me—are forced to buy leasehold flats is that they are cheaper than non-leasehold flats. As I will indicate in an amendment to be discussed on the next day in Committee, very few of us were originally aware of what a leasehold meant. We thought that we were entering into the housing market and buying a house, having saved up very hard to do so, without realising that we were, in effect, pseudo-tenants with very few rights. That has all been discussed often in this House.
The other thing that I wanted to clarify—I hinted at it, and it will come up again—is the notion that any charity that is a freeholder is doing good in the world; that strikes me as at least open to question. Many of the problems that leaseholders face are due to their being local authority—local authorities are not charities, but there are real problems with local authority flats. Also, housing association leaseholders have endured incredible problems with how the leasehold is set up. It is not appropriate to assume that, because charities say that they are doing charitable work, they are not accountable for some of the uncharitable consequences of the fact that they are, in effect, freeholders making a huge amount of money out of leaseholders.
In that sense, what really wound me up was the idea of this being a limitless expropriation scheme. Leaseholders have felt for some time that they are on the receiving end of a limitless expropriation scheme. The reason why this Bill is here and why people across the political parties, from right to left and in between, are so committed to tackling leasehold is that the inequity is in that capacity to expropriate, via the service charge, ground rent and so on. It means that leaseholders feel there is no way to defend themselves against a freeholder who can just take, take, take. Having paid quite a lot in service charges, I know that you do not necessarily get a service and there is not very much you can do about it, which is what the Bill is trying to address. I am pleased that the Government are addressing this, although they are not going far enough.
This is whipping up a climate of fear, and the notion that mad socialists are going around stealing property from freeholders is absolutely mythical. It is very important that we do not allow myths to emerge in the midst of this discussion, and that we have a proportionate sense of how to respond. I do not think that all freeholders are evil, but the system is iniquitous. I mentioned before that it has taken a few years of me being here to hear so much enthusiasm for feudalism, but it seems to be coming up again. It might make it difficult to untangle the law—as the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, explained, this goes back many hundreds of years—and I am not trying to be glib, but there have been a lot of commissions looking into this. However, it is not appropriate to sing the virtues of feudalism, either. Feudal property rights are not in the interest of modern democrats, whether they are on the left or the right. The idea that this is the equivalent of the difficulties of expropriating from Putin does not make any sense.
As to the European Court of Human Rights: the irony of the position of Conservative Peers! By the way, I am one of the people who would leave the ECHR— I know everyone here will hiss and boo when I say that —because I do not think it should determine the decisions we make in this or the other House. But Conservative Peers, who would otherwise say that the European Court of Human Rights is unreliable, defending it for hedge fund managers is ludicrous. Freeholders are not necessarily virtuous, benevolent, benign landowners; some are, but most are money-making rentiers. It is actually a criticism of the failures of capitalism that the only way anyone thinks they can make money is by ripping off leaseholders—and then describing them as rich, just because they have got a decent flat. Noble Lords get the gist.
Lord Sentamu (CB)
My Lords, I remind the noble Baroness, in light of what she has just said, that it was in this place in 1215 that the barons said to the King, “This is the Magna Carta”. This principle was established and made very clear that a person’s property could not be seized by the King, except by the lawful judgment of his Peers over the law of the land. The assumption is that if you take the property, compensation must follow, even if you are taking such property because you want to convert some or all of it into leaseholds, so that they too can become owners. The Magna Carta will tell you, “Have you forgotten your history? Have you forgotten your law?” The rule of law in this country is what gives us liberty. It is not just a question of the European Court of Human Rights; it is also Magna Carta, which is really the foundation of all these things. To seize somebody’s property, even by an Act of Parliament, would go against the whole reason why Magna Carta came out and gave us the rule of law, in the end.
Let us be very careful in this Bill. If you take away somebody’s property without compensating them, those barons from 1215 will be rising up and saying, “Remember your history, remember your law, remember the tradition that it has created, and safeguard it”.
I do not think that freeholders are simply wanting to hold on to things, in the way that the noble Baroness described some of them, or are not doing any good charitable thing. I live in Berwick in Northumberland, and the duke there has plenty of other things. I have also seen some of the charity work that is being done.
Let us not use language and words because we are enthusiastic in one direction or another and ignore the Magna Carta. It is what has given freedom and liberty even to newcomers such as me. My friends, the rule of law cannot ever simply be brushed aside because of a desire to correct a particular question. The rule of law matters. The Magna Carta matters.
Lord Thurlow (CB)
My Lords, I support each of the three amendments in this group. I was going to say that the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, concerning compensation, was so articulate that it really needed no reinforcement, but I was not expecting the fine history lesson just now, which has reinforced it with great skill and humour. The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, explained that she taught property law for many years. I studied property law for many years, and I am sure that, if I had studied under her—which would of course not have been appropriate at all in age terms—it would not have taken me so many years.
The expropriation is bad enough, but to add the retrospective characteristic in this legislation is shameful. My principal interest in contributing is the 80-year rule referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, because that is a very sensible, intelligent compromise to the sledgehammer of absolute abolition of marriage value and hope value in the calculation being entirely reserved to the lessees. Many of the highest-value elements of this paragraph are, indeed, in central London and the south-east, and many are non-resident.
This clause would save the Treasury billions, in addition to earning it some billions, which we heard referred to by the noble Lord. There is logic to the 80 years proposed in his clause. That is the threshold below which mortgagees such as banks and building societies are very reluctant to lend on property. Lessees therefore have no choice but to negotiate an extension if they want to use borrowed money—and, of course, nearly all do. The 80-year rule is a compromise between the very long leases and those moving into the unmortgageable zone. It makes a great deal of sense to cut the pack in this way because it excludes those freeholders of over 80 years but encapsulates the value of the expiring leases. It should be supported.
The Earl of Lytton (CB)
My Lords, like the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, I come to this from a professional viewpoint. I am a chartered surveyor and, until recently, I was a registered valuer with my professional body. Coming from my background, I see the balance to be struck. When I was in the public sector, I was dealing with matters of compulsory purchase and compensation. Later on, after the passing of the Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act 1993, I became the first chairman of the Leasehold Advisory Service. Although I was not a practitioner in the matter of leasehold enfranchisement, I had a very close up and personal involvement with what was happening there.
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
My Lords, the debate on this group of amendments has taken an interesting turn. I was not expecting to be discussing expropriation or to hear reference to the European Court of Human Rights, particularly from those who have in the past criticised it. I was not expecting the debate to hinge on the rule of law, of which I had thought we had a good example in previous days.
Lord Moylan (Con)
I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way. If there is any suggestion that I have been critical of the European Convention on Human Rights, if that remark was addressed to me, I should be glad to know when that was the case because I have never said that we should withdraw from that convention. I do not know whether the remark was addressed to my noble friend Lord Howard of Rising and not me. If that was the case, I apologise for intervening.
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
There was, of course, no mention of or reference to any noble Lord in this Chamber. It was a general reference to criticisms of that court under the human rights legislation. We have heard in debates in your Lordships’ House over the past weeks that have hinged on the rule of law. So it is most interesting, for those of us who have felt that the rule of law had been breached in the decisions that have been made, that it is now being raised in defence of these amendments. The debate has become emotive on this issue.
I hope that we can draw back from that rather, because what we have here is the Government’s intention to rebalance the rights of leaseholders as against the rights of freeholders. From these Benches, we support the rebalancing of those rights. In many cases, we think that the Government are not going far enough, but there ought to be a rebalancing of those rights. That is not referencing in this case the fact that there seems to be an argument among those who have moved or supported the amendment, that the loss of value can be defined as an expropriation. I find that difficult to accept because all along, in changes to legislation on major infrastructure projects, property is infringed and property holders feel abused. But it is for the state to make those decisions. So I am not sure why we are going to the barricades on this issue.
Lord Moylan (Con)
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way. In the case of infrastructure, it is certainly true that private property owners can have their property taken away from them to allow infrastructure to be built. But this is under a compulsory purchase regime whereby they receive something approaching the market value, normally plus a premium of so many per cent on top. My amendment would ensure that those expropriated of their marriage value would receive that. Is the noble Baroness, in fact, swinging in behind my amendment? There is a clear difference between what is proposed today and the compulsory purchase regime.
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. To me, the issue here is quite simple. We expect leaseholders to fund the enfranchisement of their lease—to pay the costs of the enfranchisement—and then to share the increased value of the lease with the freeholder, who has made no financial input to the extension of the lease. From a leaseholder’s point of view—although I do not have a leasehold myself—that seems to me to be the wrong balance. This is what the proposals in the Bill are attempting to put right. From that perspective, we would want to agree with that.
We are constantly warned that no investments can be regarded as safeguarded for all time. That must be true for property as it is for any other investments. We have heard arguments this afternoon about protecting freeholders, seemingly for ever. I accept the argument of the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, that phasing might be an answer to freeholders’ difficulties, but you cannot keep things in aspic for ever. Change is on the move and the Government are right to try to provide a better balance of rights and responsibilities between freeholders and leaseholders.
We on these Benches would prefer to move entirely to commonhold—but that argument has yet to be completed. I accept that the situation is very complex. Whenever we have a substantial change in legal rights, there is a loss on one side and arguments about that, and benefits on the other. Nobody can be absolutely clear and certain how the balance will be reset.
The Earl of Lytton (CB)
I take the noble Baroness’s point about things changing, but I ask her to cast her mind back—although she was not there at the time, any more than I was—to the great reforms in the Law of Property Act 1925. There was a big discussion about all sorts of matters to do with tenure and getting rid of things such as entails, and modernising the system. If we are to make a seismic change—and I think this Bill will produce something of a wobble—there ought to have been that big discussion about the fundamentals of property law. Does the noble Baroness not agree that, instead of tinkering around piecemeal with this and trying to shoehorn it into the unfortunate focal point of leasehold reform and the balance between leasehold and freehold, that discussion should have taken place first?
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
I thank the noble Earl for that intervention, because he is right in many cases. I am not a lawyer, but I know that the 1925 property Act made a huge change away from the old system, which was feudal at that point, and modernised property legislation. This Bill may do the same. In some instances, as we have heard this afternoon, it will have big consequences—for freeholders, in the context of this set of amendments. I accept that maybe there ought to have been—as we heard on Monday from the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham—a draft Bill on commonhold. Maybe it requires an in-depth, cross-House, cross-party committee to get into the detail, rather than the 300 or so pages of the Bill that we have in front of us, in order to get to grips with the consequences of what is being proposed.
I go back to the principle, and the principle has to be right. We are trying to rebalance the rights between freehold and leasehold. There is frequent talk on the Conservative Benches that the basis of Conservative philosophy is a property-owning democracy, but leaseholders will not be full participants in that until these changes are made. So it will be interesting to hear what the Minister has to say with regard to this very challenging debate.
Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)
My Lords, this has been a more wide-ranging debate than was anticipated at the beginning of the group. The noble Lords, Lord Howard and Lord Moylan, made some interesting points in introducing their amendments, and it is for the Minister to clarify and address her noble friends’ concerns. All three amendments in this group attempt to make changes to Schedule 4, which is where the market- value element of the premium for any enfranchisement claim is determined.
I listened to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, in relation to the European Convention on Human Rights. Although we have differing views on that, it is interesting how legislation and the regard for international law are debated in different debates in this House—without pinpointing any noble Lord in particular.
The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, laid out and stipulated the complexity of the issue as a teacher in property law, while the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, as a student of property law, made some interesting points about complexity and about working and bringing change in a fair manner.
In conclusion, I ask the Minister what consideration the Government have given to the principles of grandfathering for leases of various lengths and other conditions when developing the Bill? For example, in the instance of a lease of a very short length, when the Bill becomes law, what are the ramifications of the Bill as it is written? Do the Government think that some shorter leases are going to be treated in a way that may be fairer on wider principle but do not seem appropriate, given the shorter lengths? If so, did they consider any mitigation?
I finish by referring to my noble friend Lord Truscott, who advocated in a diligent manner the ending of marriage value and talked about the wider unfairness in leasehold properties. I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My Lords, I thank my noble friends Lord Howard and Lord Moylan for their amendments in this group. Amendments 26 and 27 would require marriage value or possible hope value to be payable by a leaseholder who has fewer than 80 years remaining on their lease on the passage of the Act.
The Government’s stated objective is to make it cheaper and easier for leaseholders to extend their lease or acquire their freehold. We want them to attain greater security of tenure. The amendments are directly counter to our objective. In particular, they would prevent us from helping the trapped leaseholder—that is, a leaseholder with a short lease who is unable to afford to extend because of the prohibitive marriage value payable, and so is trapped with an asset of diminishing value.
We do not believe that the leaseholder should have to pay marriage value. For the freeholder, the marriage value that is payable under the current law is a windfall created by the freehold and leasehold interests being married earlier than they otherwise would have been—namely, at the end of the lease. It is a sum that the freeholder would not receive if the lease ran its course. Parliament has previously determined that the value should be split equally and the leaseholder should pay half of it to the freeholder on enfranchisement, but we do not believe that freeholders should continue to receive that windfall.
The leaseholder needs to enfranchise, because by its very nature a lease is a wasting asset. Without either extending their lease or buying their freehold, they will suffer financial loss as the lease runs down or lose possession when it has fully run down. Nor has the lease- holder meaningfully chosen to enter such an arrangement, since leasehold is very often the only available form of tenure outside the rented sector at certain price points or in certain locations. The lease- holder’s need to enfranchise is born out of their insecurity of tenure; that is, out of the inherent injustice of the leasehold system. Our objective is to enable them to obtain greater security and to address that inherent injustice. By not having to pay marriage value to the freeholder, the leaseholder’s ability to obtain security of tenure is much improved.
A third party who bought the landowner’s interest would not pay marriage value, and we do not think it is right that the leaseholder should pay more than that same interest. Requiring leaseholders to pay more than a third party—or, in other words, enabling the freeholder to profit from the sale to a leaseholder by comparison to a third party—is to punish the leaseholder for their need to enfranchise, and therefore to affirm the very injustice we are trying to address.
The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, and many other noble Lords brought up compensation. Under our valuation scheme, the freeholder is compensated as if the lease simply ran its course. We believe that this is adequate compensation; it is sufficient to reflect their legitimate property interests.
Amendments 26 and 27 would also further complicate an already complex system. They would create a new two-tier system, with different rules for leases that were under 80 years at the time of the Act and those that fell under 80 years thereafter. This is undesirable, as it runs contrary to our stated aim to simplify this complex tenure.
Before I move on to Amendment 29, I will answer one or two specifics. First, the issue of human rights has been brought up by a number of noble Lords. The Government consider that all provisions in the Bill are compatible with the relevant convention rights and that in the case of the provisions engaging Article 8 and A1P1 any interference is justified and proportionate. There is a GOV.UK page where noble Lords can read further information on that should they wish.
The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, also brought up phasing, which is important. Following Royal Assent, we will allow time for a smooth transition to a new system, while making sure that leaseholders and freehold home owners on private and mixed-tenure estates— which is an issue—can benefit from it as soon as reasonably possible. We will also support leaseholders, freeholders, landlords and agents to adjust to and understand the new rules. We will work with delivery partners to make sure that the necessary support is in place, including through the publication of appropriate guidance.
Baroness Deech (CB)
I am grateful to the Minister for those comments. It reminds me that in the case of the 1925 legislation, the centenary of which approaches us, there were six different statutes with a long lead-in time. Apparently, many solicitors gave up practice entirely because they could not cope with the new law, so it is good to know this will be gently introduced.
On human rights, I am all in favour of the European convention; I would not want to drop it. I just find it rather dismaying that if the possible claimant were a hedge fund manager or a rich freeholder then we should not worry about them. The point about the European Convention on Human Rights is, whether you like the claimant or not, the thing must be taken as a whole; we cannot pick and choose. I would like some disassociation from the notion that hedge fund managers and rich freeholders should not have their rights considered under that convention.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
I do not think that I will comment on that from the Dispatch Box, but the noble Baroness is absolutely right: we will make sure that it is phased in and that everybody understands it. Let us hope we do not lose too many solicitors in that journey.
Amendment 29, tabled by my noble friend Lord Moylan, would address the removal of marriage value far beyond that of a specific carve-out for charities, for example, which we are going to address specifically in the next group. The amendment would transfer the requirement to pay marriage value to freeholders in all enfranchisement claims on to the public purse. That would be unfair to hard-working taxpayers.
For the reasons I have outlined, I hope that my noble friends Lord Howard of Rising and Lord Moylan will withdraw or not press their amendments. Of course, I am always happy to meet noble Lords to discuss this further before Report.
Lord Howard of Rising (Con)
I thank the Minister for her comments. On human rights, I neither supported nor did not support them; I commented that human rights will prove a fortune for lawyers, as they argue for years and years over whether assets have been expropriated fairly or unfairly. The Minister referred to complexity; that really will bring complexity to what is at present a relatively simple situation.
When everybody is talking about this and how unfair it is on leaseholders, we should also remember that all a leasehold is is a discount on the freehold value. Somebody has paid less for that asset than they would have done had it been a freehold. If you take that logic to its full extension, why not go to the motor car industry, for example, and say that everybody who has bought their car on hire purchase should be able to have it without having to pay any more? They bought it under certain terms, as the leaseholder did—
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
I suggest that one of the problems is that those who buy cars under hire purchase do not think that they are buying the car to own it. One clarification that has emerged only recently is that most people did not know when they bought a home, advertised as being sold to them, that the lease was a hire-purchase arrangement. I hope that is one of the things being clarified by this law.
Lord Howard of Rising (Con)
Sorry, but when you buy a car under hire purchase, you buy it that way: that is why it is called purchase. You are just deferring your payment over a period. That is what happened when I was in the motor industry.
I thank all those who have supported my amendment. I hope that, as the Minister said, we can return to discuss this further. In the meantime, I withdraw my amendment.
“(3A) But in a case where the freeholder is a charity and the freehold interest was vested in that charity immediately before the passing of this Act—(a) assumption 2 must not be made, and(b) accordingly, marriage and hope value are payable.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment would provide that, where the freeholder in the case of a lease extension or freehold enfranchisement is a charity which had owned the freehold interest since before the passing of the Bill, marriage and hope value are payable.
The Lord Bishop of Manchester
My Lords, while I thoroughly enjoyed that previous group, I hope this one will not prove quite so wide-ranging. In tabling these amendments, my aim is to deal with an issue that in the charity world is specific to a small number of bodies but would severely impact the work that they do. First, I am a leaseholder myself, as it happens, as set out in the register of interests. I have been through the process of extending my lease; my flat is not in London, and it was quite a simple and cheap process. Secondly, although I am no longer on the board of governors of the Church Commissioners, it is the body that pays my stipend, owns my home and covers my working expenses, so I declare that interest too.
The commissioners are directly affected by the proposals in the Bill. They would indeed benefit from my amendments but, as has already been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Truscott, in the previous group, that charity is large enough to withstand the adverse impact. Smaller charities would struggle much harder to maintain their work, and it is their case I seek to plead today.
As I said at Second Reading, I wholeheartedly support the central thrust of the Bill, which is to protect leaseholders from freeholders who exploit them as a cash cow. I also agree that leasehold is ripe for bold reform. I have spoken repeatedly in your Lordships’ House on behalf of victims of the cladding scandal, as well as joining them on public platforms in Manchester. My lifelong commitment to those in housing need is well known in this House and that commitment remains undiminished.
I was unable to be in my seat on Monday and I am grateful that my right reverend friend the Bishop of Derby spoke to an amendment in my name that day. Having carefully read the report of that debate in Hansard, I have informed the Whips’ Office that I no longer intend to oppose the question that Clause 47 stand part of the Bill, nor does my co-signatory, the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow. I have taken that step as I believe my efforts at this stage are best focused on the specific issue of charities and marriage value. I apologise to noble Lords for the lateness of that decision but hope that they will take it as a sign that even a bishop can be penitent.
To focus on the subject of this group, in England there are a small number of charities, probably no more than a dozen, all of them with long and distinguished histories, which, in centuries far past, came into the possession of land lying largely within just a few miles of this House. As London grew and the land increased in value, rather than simply selling it and seeking to invest elsewhere—remember that back then there were far fewer opportunities for investment—the charities stuck with the business they knew and understood. They kept the freeholds and have used them as regular and predictable sources of income to drive their work. The charities, apart from the commissioners, of which I am aware, are John Lyon’s Charity, the Portal Trust, the Dulwich Estate, the London Diocesan Fund, Merchant Taylors’ Boone’s Charity, and Campden Charities —not a large number.
John Lyon’s Charity was gifted its land in St John’s Wood about 500 years ago. Income from being the freeholder, principally through marriage value, provides it with about £4 million per annum, which is one-quarter of its total income. Marriage value is not a matter, as we have heard, in which the freeholder can set their own arbitrary figure. It is not open to the abuses that have been associated with ground rents. It is also the case that around 80% of all marriage value is in or around the capital. This is a very London-focused issue.
The money that John Lyon’s Charity receives enables it to be one of the principal providers of youth services to some of London’s most needy children. Properties on its holdings sell for around £5 million. The leaseholders who purchase them are not London’s poor and needy. Many are not resident in the premises, which are let out to tenants. A typical leaseholder on such an estate is, as we have heard in previous debates, more than likely to be a wealthy overseas investor or corporation. I have nothing against them, but the Bill, in its present form, will transfer money used presently for youth work to these very rich organisations and individuals. It will present them with an entirely unearned windfall, hence my comments at Second Reading about this being a “reverse Robin Hood”.
I have been told that the Bill needs to be kept simple, and that making any exceptions will unnecessarily complicate it. Of course, there is already an exception for the National Trust, but I will not debate that any further. However, the simplest solution to a problem is not always the right one. In any battle between simplicity and justice, justice must always prevail.
I have also been told that it would be wrong for some leaseholders not to profit from the abolition of marriage value when others, whose freeholders are not charities, do. I will not go back as far as my good friend, the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Sentamu, did when citing Magna Carta in the previous debate, but there is another principle that is long established: the assets of a charity should not be alienated from it at anything less than full market value, except where those assets are being applied directly to the purposes set out in the charity’s objects clause. That principle has been applied even to such flagship Conservative projects as tenants’ right to buy, in which charitable housing associations were excepted as not being forced to sell properties at a discounted value, unless that discount was being made up from elsewhere. I have not heard any case, not even an unconvincing one, as to why leaseholders of charity-owned freeholds should be treated more favourably than charity tenants.
My amendments in this group offer one way forward. They stipulate that marriage value should continue to apply in cases where the charity owned the freehold before the Act came into effect. There would be no loophole allowing charities to purchase freeholds and apply marriage value in future, nor any opportunity for other bodies to seek to register as charities thereafter. From day one, those leaseholders with charity freeholders should know exactly who they are.
We could tighten it up even further—this is still just Committee stage. It would make little difference if the exemptions applied only to charities, or their predecessors, which owned the freehold prior to 1950, which would of course exclude most housing association leasehold properties. Given how few they are, we could even name them in a schedule. We could explore how marriage value for charities might be phased out over a period of some decades, as was referred to more generally in the previous group, instead of the impact hitting in full in the first year. We can also look at ways of compensating charities in full for the loss of assets—again, an issue referred to in the previous group. I note the Minister’s comments that to fully compensate all freeholders would be an unfair burden on the taxpayer. We are talking here about something much smaller—a small number of charities severely impacted—and I beg to suggest that that can be afforded. None of this needs to slow down the progress of this much-needed Bill through your Lordships’ House.
I am grateful to the Minister, who has already met me and representatives of some of the affected charities, written to us setting out the Government’s current position, and assured us that she remains ready to meet again. I greatly appreciate her openness to such conversations. I also appreciate the Opposition Front Bench for similarly listening to our concerns. I look forward to hearing the views of other Members of your Lordships’ House, so that the charities impacted can have a better sense of where we might find ways forward to tackle this problem. In the meantime, I beg to move.
Lord Moylan (Con)
My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester, and I have added my name to his amendments.
There is a great deal that I could say on this issue but, since I said most of it in the debate on the last group, I shall keep my remarks fairly short. I can add a little personal knowledge of one charity to which the right reverend Prelate refers, because it is very Kensington-based. I have no connection with it and no interest to declare—but Campden Charities was started in the 17th century by Count Campden, a devout Puritan. When he died, he left a charitable endowment, naturally in the shape of land that he owned, for the benefit of the poor youth of Kensington. His widow, when she died, did likewise with her property—hence the plural. It is Campden Charities: technically, they are two separate endowments, but they are run as one. They own land in Kensington to this day from which they have an income, and they continue to support the poor youth of Kensington—and there are poor youths in Kensington—giving them grants to allow them to continue their education and apprenticeships, and work of that sort. Their income is now going to be, to some extent by this measure, reduced and expropriated.
As I say, apparently as Conservatives we feel no embarrassment in doing this—we feel no constraint on us. We are too tender and too ginger to feel that we can expropriate the assets of ill-doers such as Putin’s friends—they are sacrosanct. But those who do good, such as charities, can have their money taken away with very little debate and handed to leaseholders who may or may not be poor and meritorious. Who knows? What is it next, I wonder, for my noble friends on the Front Bench? Shall we be stealing the widow’s mite from the poor box?
Lord Bailey of Paddington (Con)
My Lords, I want to pay tribute to Campden Charities, as I am a beneficiary of the activities of Campden Charities. I came from a community where the likelihood of one of us appearing in the Lords was next to zero, and Campden Charities is an important part of my arrival in your Lordships’ House. I point out that removing the ability of charities countrywide to provide such services would be devastating to some of the poorest communities in this country. Again, I stand here as a witness to the effectiveness of some of the work that they do.
Lord Thurlow (CB)
My Lords, it is not on the list but I did put my name to this amendment and I am very keen to support the right reverend Prelate. Much of the debate we have had so far this afternoon seems to be focused on the rich, greedy landlords versus the impoverished tenants. If we strip this away from the debate and focus on these landlords, those addressed in this amendment are charities; they do good. They are not bad actors. Their managing agents, in the case of their property investments, are not bad actors. They are responsible to the Church and they thoroughly deserve this exemption, as we were reminded very eloquently in the excellent few words of the previous speech. I proudly add my name to the amendment.
The Earl of Lytton (CB)
My Lords, I am very pleased to be able to speak to this amendment and very grateful to the right reverend Prelate for tabling it. His office asked me whether I would add my name, and I am afraid I neglected to do so. Implicit in what the right reverend Prelate and the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, said is that we have within the Bill a carve-out for the National Trust as a charity that does not apply to other charities. My understanding, and I think noble Lords will know the principle, is that this touches on and concerns the question of hybridity of a Bill. That is dangerous territory for somebody who is a non-lawyer, but none the less I raise the question, because public Bills should apply equally to all citizens and entities. If you single out one, you have to face the consequences of having a hybrid Bill.
I scanned around earlier to see how many legal minds there might be sitting around the Chamber, because I am not one and I stand to be shot down, not being a lawyer, but the matter did crop up on the levelling-up Bill and I had reason to look into that in some detail, although it was not debated in the Chamber. So I hope I am reasonably up to date in believing that the only workaround here is if the entity singled out in the legislation is what is known in the jargon of the legislator as “a class of one”. I have seen the letter dated 22 April to the right reverend Prelate from the Minister. She appears to allude to the uniqueness of the National Trust in that its lands are inalienable. I looked at the world wide web at lunchtime to see just how inalienable things actually are, because as I will explain, I am not sure that is necessarily a correct point on which to rest the case.
What I discovered, among other things, was “Battle over National Trust sale to developer”, which was a question of three acres of a meadow near Bovey Tracey in Devon in 2021. There was another freehold property on the market, and I think it was described as being a former National Trust property. I therefore assume that the National Trust is doing what other charities normally do—namely, that it gets property bequeathed to it, or it acquires property by public subscription, and that may contain bits that it wants and considers rightly inalienable, and other bits that it considers expendable. Any charitable organisation having property is required by the Charity Commissioners to make best use of its assets, and that means not having bits of deadwood floating around. It has to be organised, and that happens in any management process. So to what extent inalienability cuts into this, I am absolutely not sure.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. Can he explain what the word “inalienable” actually means?
The Earl of Lytton (CB)
I believe it means that it cannot be disposed of away from the purposes of the charity. I am not a lawyer and I am afraid I do not know exactly, but I understood it to be the term contained in the Minister’s letter to the right reverend Prelate, which is why I used it.
I want to make it clear that the organisation of a charity is necessarily of a commercial nature but devoted, ultimately, to its charitable purposes. It cannot be otherwise; it must use its assets optimally, and it is required to do so. I can see no discernible difference between something like the National Trust and an organisation such as the Church of England. Any such charity acquires, disposes and otherwise deals with its land assets as a matter of course. It is required to do so if it is disposing according to a set of rules, with which I am familiar, under the Charity Commission: CC 28, which state that you have to get best value for the asset, or words to that effect.
I am concerned about the potential hybridity aspect of the Bill, to which the right reverend Prelate did not refer, but it is implicit in what he is asking. It is a question that needs to be raised and is a procedural one for this House. I would very much like to know the answer, and if the Minister, who has not had any warning, cannot give it today perhaps she would be kind enough to write and copy in other noble Lords who are listening.
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
My Lords, I thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester for drawing our attention to the fact that when you make complex changes, the consequences cannot always be predicted and may not be ones we would wish to support.
The issue is one I hope the Minister will be able to help us resolve. The right reverend Prelate cited the balance between justice and simplicity. He said to always come down on the side of justice, and so would I. However, in this case, we have competing justices. The principle being advocated throughout the Bill is the justice of rebalancing the rights and responsibilities between freeholders and leaseholders to the benefit of leaseholders—a principle most of us support. The difficulty is that the justice we support has a consequence we would not support: reducing the funds available to charities whose income is based on freehold property. So, there is a conundrum for us.
The right reverend Prelate listed the charities that he thought were affected by these changes. I noted they were all London-based, no doubt because of land values in London. It is important for us to know whether this is a more extensive problem, or a London-based one. The first question we need to ask is, what other charities will be affected?
I do not have an answer to the next question: is there a workaround that mitigates the effect of the principal changes the Bill seeks to implement? I am sure the bright young things in the department could come up with a way of mitigating the outcome, so that charities do not lose their income, which is in nobody’s interest. I am confident that somebody will come up with a great way of overcoming this problem, while retaining the other justice: fairness towards leaseholders.
So, there are questions but no answers, and I look forward to hearing what the Government might be able to do.
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
My Lords, this debate has again outlined what a huge benefit it would be to have proper, detailed pre-legislative scrutiny of Bills such as this. I hope that will take place when we get a commonhold Bill, whoever brings it forward.
In principle, I am in much of the same mind as my noble friend Lord Truscott when it comes to special pleading on marriage value. I fear that the amendments in the name of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester are in danger of being an almighty sledge- hammer to crack not a very big nut, and my comments are made on that basis.
First, I thank the right reverend Prelate and Lynne Guyton, from John Lyon’s Charity, for meeting me yesterday to explain the issue in more detail. The issues set out by the right reverend Prelate affect a very small number of charities, such as the ones in central London that he has outlined. They have been in place for centuries and, as was explained to me, use marriage value on lease extensions as a critical contribution to the funding of their charitable work. The leaseholders of these properties are largely offshore companies or non-residential wealthy owners, so the argument put forward by the charities is that, in this case, the benefit of marriage value has what the right reverend Prelate described as the “reverse Robin Hood effect”. The benefit currently accrues to the beneficiaries of the charity, such as youth clubs, arts projects, emotional well-being initiatives, supplementary schools, parental support schemes, sports programmes, academic bursaries and similar projects. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bailey, for his personal testimony in this respect.
The fear is that, after the Bill has passed, the benefits will then accrue to the said wealthy offshore companies and leaseholders. I believe the Government have been in conversation with the charities concerned and have promised to look at what can be done to ensure that a very limited exception is considered. However, it is our understanding that this has not been forthcoming, and I hope the Minister will tell us where the Government have got to. Have the Government carried out any impact assessment of the way the Bill will affect charities that have long-standing property endowments solely for the purpose of enabling their charitable aims?
However, as with group 2, these amendments would amend Schedule 4, which is where the market value element of the premium for any enfranchisement claim is determined. The second amendment tabled by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester has also applied it to the later section on loss suffered, in paragraph 32, which refers back to assumption 2. Straightforwardly, these amendments would disapply assumption 2 for charities, and thereby include marriage and hope values in determining market value.
As I said during the first Committee sitting on the Bill, we genuinely appreciate the intention behind supporting what is argued to be the unique circumstances of this small group of charities. However—and it is a big “however”—the amendment as drafted is almost certainly far too broad to encompass only their very unusual circumstances. Perhaps the Government will continue to work with right reverend Prelate and the charities concerned to see what can be done to support them; otherwise, we fear that a general amendment such as the one tabled could open a big Pandora’s box and encourage those wishing to avoid the new system of enfranchisement—which we support, of course—and there may be plenty who wish to do so, to misuse charitable status for that purpose.
The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, referred to exemptions created for the National Trust, which the Government felt were justified. Presumably, the Government feel that some exemptions are justified.
While we do not feel that the amendment as tabled would avoid some of the obvious pitfalls of creating a loophole in the stated aims of the Bill—with which we agree—I look forward to the response of the Minister about whether any progress can be made in this respect.
Lord Gascoigne (Con)
My Lords, I thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester, and my noble—and actual—friend Lord Moylan for their valuable contributions at Second Reading, and for the amendments that they have put forward which seek to alter the Government’s current position on marriage value and hope value. I say on behalf of my noble friend the Minister that we are grateful for all the time and engagement with the right reverend Prelate on this issue, along with the Church Commissioners and the charities which she has spoken to today.
In addition, we are grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken on this group and on the somewhat excited group previously. As has been noted, a lot of the points that I will speak to were covered in the previous discussion. I also say to the right reverend Prelate that we are always happy to meet. In answer to the noble Baronesses, Lady Taylor and Lady Pinnock, the Minister is more than happy to engage with any noble Lord who is impacted by this, as well as charities, to discuss it further.
Amendments 28 and 46 would exempt freeholders who are charities at the time of the Bill receiving Royal Assent from the removal of the requirement for leaseholders to pay marriage value, and for hope value to be payable. Before I go into detail, I reiterate the Government’s wholehearted recognition of the vital role and work that charities provide in our communities up and down the land, as has been noted by my noble friend Lord Bailey.
However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, explained previously, we do not believe that leaseholders should pay marriage value. The leaseholder needs to enfranchise to prevent financial loss from the running down of their lease, and to prevent their losing possession when it ends. As has been said, we do not believe that their position, which concerns their security in their home, should be used as a basis for requiring them to pay more than a third party to enfranchise, nor that the freeholder should profit by way of windfall by selling to the leaseholder as compared to a third party. Under our valuation scheme, the freeholder is compensated as if the lease ran its course.
The good work of a charity is separable from its funding. Requiring leaseholders of charities, for no other reason than the coincidence of the nature of their freeholder, to pay marriage value when other leaseholders do not have to would be, I am afraid to say, unfair. Granting exemptions would also create an unbalanced two-tier system. By removing marriage value across the board, we will level the playing field and ensure that we are widening access to enfranchisement for all leaseholders, both now and in the future.
There have been a couple of references to the National Trust. Briefly—as I know it has been covered previously in this debate—it is a different scenario given that its land is inalienable and cannot be sold, yet it is not exempt from the removal of marriage value. I am not aware of the case that the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, mentioned, but I am certainly more than happy to look into it for him. I assume—and it is only my assumption—that it is because it is for the National Trust as an entity to decide, but I assure the noble Earl that I will look into it.
The noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, asked about other charities that may be impacted by this beyond those that we have discussed. Again, I am not aware of any, but I am sure that that work has been done by the department. I will certainly take it back and investigate. Further to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, it is something on which we will continue to engage with any noble Lord or any charity that is impacted, as we have done with the right reverend Prelate.
For these reasons, I respectfully hope that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester and my noble friend Lord Moylan will understand and therefore not press their amendments.
Lord Moylan (Con)
Before my noble friend sits down, perhaps I may address a point he made earlier which was made also by my noble friend Lady Scott of Bybrook. The idea that the Government are peddling, that if a landowner sells a leasehold or freehold interest to a third party, they do not receive marriage value, is to assume gross inefficiency of markets and complete ignorance of market participants. It is of course true that the purchaser would not pay marriage value as a separate sum, but the purchaser is perfectly aware of the potential for marriage value and will pay a price that incorporates that. To assume anything else is to assume that all those clever and evil hedge fund managers are too dim to notice what is going on. It simply is not the case. The line the Government are peddling is simply unfounded in fact and reality.
Lord Gascoigne (Con)
Obviously, I completely respect my noble friend, but I think I have answered that point.
The Lord Bishop of Manchester
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, which has been somewhat less emotive than the previous one. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, for his support, and for his description of the good work that is done by the Campden Charities for young people in Kensington. I am particularly grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bailey of Paddington, who spoke movingly of how that same charity has been part of what has enabled him to become the great asset he is to your Lordships’ House today, and to the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, for his helpful and insightful questions.
I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, for asking whether other charities, including those outside London, are affected. While I cannot guarantee that my list is exhaustive, I am pretty sure that if there are any that we have missed, they would quickly come forward, but I do not think that there are many.
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage, both for her meeting yesterday and for her support for the matter being further considered. Can we find a workaround that does not disapply the whole principles of the Bill, but which deals with the problem that these particularly good causes are going to suffer as things stand? I am very happy to look at some tighter drafting, as she suggested. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Gascoigne, for his response, and for his willingness, and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, to continue to engage with us on this matter.
In the previous debate, we were told that compensation for loss of marriage value would be too much of a strain on the taxpayer. We are talking about a very much smaller amount here, and I wonder whether that would be a course that we could continue to pursue in further conversations before Report. For now, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook
(a) the relevant freehold on the transfer of a freehold house under the LRA 1967, or(b) the notional lease on”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment would correct the references in paragraph 18 to what is being valued under Schedule 4.
Member's explanatory statement
This changes the terminology used in paragraph 21(2)(a) so that the correct defined term is used.
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment would avoid the “current lease” (the terminology otherwise used in Schedule 4) being referred to by a different term (“lease being valued”) in paragraph 25.
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment would avoid the “current lease” (the terminology otherwise used in Schedule 4) being referred to by a different term (“lease being valued”) in paragraph 25.
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment would avoid the “current lease” (the terminology otherwise used in Schedule 4) being referred to by a different term (“lease being valued”) in paragraph 25.
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment would avoid the “current lease” (the terminology otherwise used in Schedule 4) being referred to by a different term (“lease being valued”) in paragraph 25.
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment would avoid the “current lease” (the terminology otherwise used in Schedule 4) being referred to by a different term (“lease being valued”) in paragraph 25.
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment would avoid the “current lease” (the terminology otherwise used in Schedule 4) being referred to by a different term (“lease being valued”) in paragraph 25.
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment would avoid the “current lease” (the terminology otherwise used in Schedule 4) being referred to by a different term (“lease being valued”) in paragraph 25.
“(10A) If section 3(3) of the LRA 1967 applies to the current lease (successive leases treated as a single lease), sub-paragraph (9) is to apply only if the one of those leases which is in effect at the valuation date meets the condition in sub-paragraph (9)(a) or (b).”Member's explanatory statement
This modifies the application of paragraph 25 where successive leases are “chained” to constitute a long lease under the LRA 1967.
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment would avoid the “current lease” (the terminology otherwise used in Schedule 4) being referred to by a different term (“lease being valued”) in paragraph 25.
Lord Borwick
Bank Rate at the time that the notice of intention to enfranchise is served + 5 %
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment seeks to make the process for setting the deferment rate more efficient through using a fixed formula based on Bank Rate, rather than requiring the Secretary of State to set the deferment rate in regulations.
Lord Borwick (Con)
My Lords, I first declare my interest in my home, which is a long-leasehold property in London. It would not normally be declarable, but in the case of this Bill, this should be an exception. I also declare my interests as in the register in property companies, some of which are developing or have developed houses.
While I am not a great fan of a Conservative Government forcing freeholders to sell land to lease- holders, that principle sailed many years ago, and my Amendments 41, 43, 44 and 45 are designed to simplify the process in this Bill, reducing the costs for the department. They would speed up the process, perhaps by as much as 18 months, making it quicker and cheaper for the Government.
The present structure of the Bill has the price of the enfranchisement calculated by a system laid out in Schedule 4, under which the single most important factor is the deferment rate. I believe that the deferment rate is more important to the size of the actual price than the abolition of marriage value or any other factor.
What is the deferment rate? Some noble Lords believed that it must be in the Bill, but that is not so. The deferment rate, an interest rate by another name, is to be decided by the Secretary of State for DLUHC by way of statutory instrument. When will this be published? We do not know. Departments take a different time for SIs, and some take as long as five years. I have been criticised in the past for being acidic about the Department for Transport taking as long as five years to bring forward an SI on disability matters. The point is that it is certainly not instantaneous.
The interest rate is to be set by the Secretary of State at a date to be announced in due course. I could be rather difficult and quote my right honourable friend from another place, Michael Gove, on the subject of setting interest rates. He has been a supporter of the principle that interest rates should be set not by the Chancellor but by the independent Bank of England. For many years we have had that as a common policy between all parties, yet the Bill reverses that policy, at least in respect of the deferment rate.
The Minister has said that the rate will be a market rate for about 10 years, amended only by another SI. I am afraid that markets do not work like that—they alter fast and furiously. Over the last 10 years, the national rate has varied quite widely, between 0.1% and today’s 5.25%. Yet the department will fix it for the next 10 years, subject only to review at about a year’s notice. If the department was that good, it could make a fortune in the markets rather than create legislation. It cannot be done accurately, but the department still wants to do it.
I submit that my solution is better: there should be a variable rate, varying automatically as a simple margin over base rate. We can have a debate about what that margin should be. I have proposed 5% as a probing amendment. The leaseholder will, in almost all cases, be a worse credit risk than the freeholder, and I have asked several banks about their prospective price for a loan to finance an enfranchisement. I have had a variety of suggestions, as each price will of course depend on the particular circumstances, but a margin of 5% over base rates seems to be a reasonable guess.
There are occasions when leaseholders of flats in a block have enfranchised but one in 100, say, has not come up with their share. It is not unknown for the freeholder himself to provide the finance, and I am told that a margin of 5% over base is considered reasonable by freeholders when they are the lenders.
The first thing would be to agree that the rate should be variable, to take account of current financial circumstances. My Amendment 41 achieves this. The second thing is to agree that the margin on the rate over bank rate should reflect the leaseholder’s cost of borrowing, which is consistent with the rest of the terms of the Bill, but at present I am not entirely certain what that margin should be. I look forward to other noble Lords expressing their opinions.
Amendments 43 to 45 are either consequential or the equivalent measure for leaseholds to be extended rather than enfranchised. My noble friend Lord Forsyth, who is not in his place, was going to support this proposal and may put his name to it later, if it comes forward on Report.
The noble Lord, Lord Truscott, mentioned this amendment at an earlier stage. I did not know whether I should stand at that moment or wait. I hope he will forgive me for replying to his point now. The current rate set by the tribunal is 4.75% or 5%—the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, can immediately correct me if I am wrong—so 10.25% may be wrong, but so is 4.75% or 5%. The noble Lord, Lord Truscott, asked whether a return of 10.25% is available, but the question should be whether any lenders charge as much as 10.25%. I believe that they do, so his argument is actually an argument for variable rates. I beg to move my amendment.
Lord Moylan (Con)
My Lords, I rise to support, in general, the principle of what my noble friend Lord Borwick has said, but I am not entirely sure that we need to go into this new world that he is creating when we have a perfectly satisfactory world that already exists. I hasten to add that I am not a chartered surveyor, and everything I say is subject to correction by Members of this Committee who understand these matters better than I.
Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Borwick for allowing what I hope will be a short debate on the deferment rate. I am conscious that I am a very inadequate substitute for the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth.
The deferment rate is very important, as my noble friend Lord Moylan explained. It is the current value of the vacant possession of a flat when the lease expires. According to what deferment rate you choose, it affects the premium that is paid by the leaseholder. My understanding is that the current deferment rate was set in a Court of Appeal case in 2007—the so-called Sportelli case—which ended up with the two rates that I think my noble friend Lord Moylan referred to: 4.75% for houses and 5% for flats. That was fixed nearly 20 years ago. There was a recent appeal decision in a Welsh court—I have the name in front of me but, like many Welsh names, it has a large number of consonants and very few vowels, so I am afraid that I cannot pronounce it. The appeal failed because the land valuer was not an economist, but it opened the way to an appeal to alter the rate. My noble friend Lord Moylan touched on my first question: when will the Secretary of State come to a decision? It affects what leaseholders do at the moment: whether they should wait for a preferential rate, which might be fixed by the Secretary of State, or whether they should try now, in case it moves the wrong way.
I want to raise a totally different point. At the moment, there already is a deferment rate set by the Government under the personal damages Act 1996. Using exactly the same basis as a deferment rate for leasehold, the Lord Chancellor sets the deferment rate for personal injury damages. Unlike what is proposed in this Bill, that rate changes quite often. In 2017, the rate was changed, and it was a negative rate for some time. It was changed again in 2019, and then again in 2023. It is now 0.5% for short-term cases and 3% for long-term cases. My question for the Government is: will we have two separate Secretaries of State fixing deferment rates at different times and coming up with different rates, or is there a case for rationalising the Government’s view as to what is an appropriate deferment rate?
One opportunity would be for the Secretary of State simply to replicate what the Lord Chancellor does. The Lord Chancellor has recently had a consultation on how to fix deferment rates and has come up with a short-term rate and a long-term rate. It seems odd to me to have two totally separate systems in the Government for basically coming to the same decision—that is, deciding what the long-term rate is on a risk-free investment. I wonder whether my noble friend the Minister has had discussions with the Lord Chancellor’s department to see whether we can have a common approach to this important issue.
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
My Lords, for me, this is a very technical set of amendments, but they are very important. As we have heard, this issue can have significant implications.
I always go back to first principles. One of the aims of the Bill is to make enfranchisement cheaper than it is currently, and so more readily available. However, as we have heard, that will entirely depend on the deferment rate and how it is set. My understanding was that the current deferment rate was set by the Court of Appeal in 2007, as the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, said. The debate is around whether it is right for that to continue; whether another process should be used, such as that proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Borwick, in his amendment about using the bank rate as a base for setting a deferment rate; or whether, as in the Bill, the responsibility is passed to the Secretary of State to determine the deferment rate. I have to agree with the noble Lords, Lord Moylan and Lord Young of Cookham, that the latter does not seem right.
When I was investigating the deferment rate issue, I noticed that Homehold Services Ltd gave evidence to the Commons Public Bill Committee that was very telling. It criticised the fact that the “applicable deferment rate” was referenced throughout the Bill
“without specifying what this will be”.
It provided an example of what effect a change in the deferment rate could have on the cost of enfranchisement. It said:
“A lease extension … on a £200k flat with 80 years unexpired and no ground rent would be c. £4,000”.
That is the example given by Homehold Services Ltd; as it is one of the experts, I thought it might be right. It continues:
“If the deferment rate was reduced from 5% to 4%, the premium would increase to c. £8,500. At 3.5% it would be … £12,000”.
Those small changes in percentages have very high consequences for the leaseholders. This is important—that is what the evidence told me when I read it.
The argument from Homehold Services Ltd was that the deferment rate must be set no lower than that set by the appeal judgment in 2007. Otherwise, the consequence is that the rate can escalate considerably, as the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, pointed out. The cost of enfranchisement would increase, removing the ability of many leaseholders to continue with the process—contrary to one of the objectives of the Bill. Can the Minister say what consideration the Government have given to the deferment rate?
The noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, said that the Chancellor’s department has had a consultation on this and come up with some figures. Why are those not being adopted in this instance to set the rate in the Bill? As we have heard, it is very important to know exactly what the deferment rate will be. I do not believe that it is satisfactory to leave the applicable deferment rate to be set by a statutory instrument some time in the future. Surely, if the Government’s intentions are as they are set out in the Bill—to make it cheaper for leaseholders to enfranchise—one of the key rates must be this one. Therefore, I would have thought that we would want to see it set during the course of this Bill, rather than wait for a statutory instrument.
I have a lot of sympathy with the arguments that have been made by the mover of the amendment and others about the need for certainty here, rather than a principle and uncertainty as to the exact figure at which the deferment rate will be set.
Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)
My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 42 in the name of my noble friend Lady Taylor of Stevenage, which was well supported by my noble friend Lord Truscott in his earlier remarks.
Deferment rates are a phenomenally complex area to understand, and the standard valuation method in Schedule 4 is extremely technical. The Law Commission set out options. It did not make recommendations, but the Government have chosen to allow the Secretary of State to prescribe the applicable deferment rate. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Borwick, for his contribution and for seeking to make the process for setting the deferment rate more efficient and asking for more clarity and certainty.
Our amendment is clear and would ensure that, when determining the applicable deferment rate,
“the Secretary of State must have regard to the desirability of encouraging leaseholders to acquire their freehold at the lowest possible cost”.
We understand that the 2007 Cadogan v Sportelli judgment, which has broadly set deferment rates, was made in the context of 0.5% interest rates. If the Government are minded to remain of the view that the Secretary of State should fix the deferment rates, how best should they do that? Although it may work in London, what would need to be taken into account for other parts of the country? Is there a need to set multiple rates for different parts of the country to deal with the variations?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, and my noble friend Lord Borwick for Amendments 41 to 45 in this group. I turn first to the series of amendments tabled by my noble friend, and I thank him for his constructive engagement with me and for the time he spent in trying to address this vital matter.
Amendments 41 and 43 to 45 would seek to replace the current provisions in the Bill, which will allow the Secretary of State to set the deferment rate used in enfranchisement valuation calculations, as well as removing a requirement to review these rates every 10 years. Instead, these amendments would require the deferment rate to be prescribed by a formula, which would be based on the Bank of England’s base rate plus 5%. The specific deferment rate would then be calculated based on the date of the leaseholder’s enfranchisement claim.
As I have discussed with my noble friend Lord Borwick, this is one potential solution for setting the deferment rate, but it is not the only one. I am aware of the importance of the deferment rate to both leaseholders and freeholders, and it is important that we take the time to take this decision carefully. There are serious consequences with any attempt to prescribe the methodology for setting the deferment rate in the Bill; this would tie the hands of this Government, and successive ones, in terms of adapting the approach if the need were to arise. It is also important that the Government retain their role in providing balance between market stability and the need to review the rates. It is the Government’s view that the proposals in the Bill enable this balance, and it would therefore be inappropriate, at this stage, to prescribe in the Bill the methodology for setting the deferment rate.
These deferment rates are a really important part of the Bill. At the moment, it is difficult for leaseholders to understand how much they may have to pay to the landlord when they enfranchise. Different rates are used across the country and across the industry on a case-by-case basis. The deferment rate is used to calculate the reversion value, and this provides the landlord with the compensation for the value of the freehold property with vacant possession in the future; that is, at the end of the lease. Prescribing these rates and using them to develop an online calculator, which will help leaseholders understand what they may have to pay, is also important. These rates will be prescribed at a market value to ensure that the amount that landlords are compensated reflects their legitimate property interests. These are important decisions.
The noble Lord, Lord Moylan, asked about the timing; this could take years and years, but we do expect the majority of these reforms to come into effect in 2025-26, as set out in the Bill’s impact assessment. Obviously, this may change, but that is what we expect. We will continue to carefully review all the information and views shared on the setting of rates, and I welcome any further thoughts that the Committee has on this matter.
Lord Moylan (Con)
Does my noble friend the Minister have a moment to give a response to my query about whether the Government regard the deferment rate as a real interest rate or one that incorporates inflation? I ask because the calculation, as I understand it, assumes zero inflation in the value of the asset over the time to the point at which it is being valued, and that a real interest rate is therefore appropriate. Is that her assumption or is she assuming an inflation-based interest rate, which, I suggest, would have consequences for how the asset is valued at the end of the term during which it is assessed? Does she have any comments on that?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
I reiterate that this is why we would like the Secretary of State to be involved because it is complex and there needs to be a balance. I will come back to the noble Lord with any further comments, but this is why we would prefer the Secretary of State to have this role, to make sure that we are balancing the market at the time with leaseholders’ representation.
I turn to Amendment 42 from the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, which would require the Secretary of State, when prescribing the deferment rate used in the enfranchisement valuation calculations, to set this at a level that would encourage
“leaseholders to acquire their freehold at the lowest possible cost”.
I assure the noble Baroness and the Committee that the Government are committed to making enfranchisement cheaper and easier and that these reforms will achieve that aim.
I understand how vital setting rates is for enfranchisement premiums. This very proposal was discussed in the other place, and I reiterate the importance of not constraining the Secretary of State via the Bill when making such important decisions. We have been clear that we will set the rates at the market value and recognise that many different elements need to be considered when setting them, as I have just reflected to my noble friend. We continue to have conversations with all relevant stakeholders. As I said, I welcome members of the Committee sharing their views on this matter so that the Government can take them into consideration when making a final decision. For these reasons, I ask my noble friend—
Lord Borwick (Con)
I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend again. One of the problems I see with this is the great difficulty in making a change except through statutory instruments, and the amount of time this takes. Whenever the Secretary of State decides that a change must happen, it must happen more quickly than through the route laid down in the Bill. At present, the amount of time doing the statutory instrument, and the fact that we cannot debate its details or change it, makes the whole thing very unfortunate.
There is something to be said for the point, made by my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham, that there is a route through that is used by the Lord Chancellor. I had not appreciated that the deferment rate had so many different implications. I am sure we could call it something different for this purpose, and thus carve out the rate for property matters. But, with a delay of one year or more between a decision and taking action, it is a very difficult subject to structure using the statutory instrument route.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My noble friend is absolutely right, and that is why we have not made this decision. We want to get it right, and that is why we listened to everything everybody said in this place and the other place. We will come back to my noble friend with our deliberations. This is important, and speed will also be important: you cannot take a year to change things that need changing, because of the market. They have to be dealt with in a timely manner.
Regarding my noble friend Lord Young’s point about the Lord Chancellor, I will take it back to the department and see whether any discussions have been had on a common approach, and if not, why not, and whether we should have those discussions.
For the reasons I have given, I ask my noble friend to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Borwick (Con)
My Lords, I thank everybody for their constructive points and for the education that I have received through this process. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment would leave out the proposed new section 19C of the Leasehold Reform Act 1967, and so ensure that leaseholders are not liable to pay their landlord’s non-litigation costs in cases where a low value enfranchisement or extension claim is successful.
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
My Lords, we welcome the new costs regime provided for by provisions in the Bill, because, as things stand, there is no balance of power: the playing field is tilted very much in favour of landlords rather than leaseholders, and that needs to be addressed. Under the current law, leaseholders are required to pay for certain non-litigation costs incurred by their landlord when responding to an enfranchisement or lease extension claim. That obviously does not reflect normal practice in residential conveyancing, where each party bears their own costs. I hope that noble Lords will forgive me for explaining our rationale for this amendment in a bit more detail than is customary for me, but it is a point of real principle, and some technical detail is warranted.
Noble Lords will remember that I quoted from a letter I had received from elderly leaseholders on the first day of Committee. I have received further representations in relation to excessive charges for non-litigation costs, which I will read out as they are a perfect illustration of the problem these amendments seek to address. I appreciate that this example relates to a ground rent dispute, but it would be the same issue for an enfranchisement or extension claim.
“After the Freeholder asks a ridiculous sum in increased ground rent with their ground rent review (every 4 years) this causes the leaseholder to then employ both a Solicitor and Surveyor to counter this high valuation which incidentally had no calculations to back it up. Therefore so far this year having paid £3,000 for a surveyor to dispute this figure and a lawyer costing so far £3,600, the freeholders haven’t even tried to justify their huge increase and valuation. Now after 4 months having passed and the 3-month negotiation ended and the Freeholders have made no effort to take part, negotiate or even contact our surveyor they now say this increase is NOT agreed …
If we lose with the third-party surveyor’s estimate and the increase is even only minimal we still have to pay the third-party surveyor’s fees plus the freeholder’s lawyer’s fees and our own lawyer’s fees, therefore it could end up costing as much as £15,000. Plus if they look to backdate the increase over the past 6 years’ Ground Rent charges this could amount to who knows what?
Even if we win we still lose a great amount of costs and fees plus we cannot look forward to a reduction in Ground Rent as the lease states an ‘Upward Only Revision’. Therefore freeholders know they can put in totally unrealistic figures for rent increase of whatever they want as the leaseholders are on a hiding to nothing … until they throw in the towel.
Additionally, to lodge a dispute at the 1st Tier Tribunal for any high unreasonable charges it is necessary to not pay the bill in question otherwise it is deemed you have agreed to this payment but then withholding payment runs the risk of forfeiture”,
which we will discuss later today. My correspondent goes on to plead that the issue of ground rent increases finally be resolved by the Bill, but their case illustrates the financial and legal minefield that leaseholders face.
The argument for imposing non-litigation costs has always been that, in enfranchisement or lease extension claims, a landlord is being forced to sell his or her asset, which would justify a departure from the practice in open market sales of residential property. However, when it comes to lease extensions or freehold purchases, a landlord is obviously not simply being compensated for the value of the asset they are being compelled to sell. They are instead securing, through the payable premium, a share of the profit to be made from selling to the leaseholders in question. In addition, as things stand, through capitalised ground rents, they are extracting funds from leaseholders over long periods—often decades —prior to securing that profit share, for no explicit services in return.
The valuations of lease extensions and freehold acquisitions under the existing statutory regime rely on prices agreed via an open market transaction, but those valuations do not account for the fact that leaseholders are expected to pay their landlord’s non-litigation costs. Therefore, landlords in enfranchisement or extension transactions receive the price for the asset being sold, which reflects the market rate without non-litigation costs factored in, and their reasonably incurred non-litigation costs on top.
In its 2020 final report on enfranchisement, the Law Commission is very clear that the effects of law and current market practice are that
“the landlord is over-compensated for the non-litigation costs that he or she has had to incur in order to transfer the interest to the leaseholder”.
In addition, many of those who are better resourced could use the fact that such costs are borne by leaseholders as leverage in negotiations on the price of the lease extension or freehold acquisition, confident that the expense of challenging those costs in a tribunal would dissuade many leaseholders from doing so.
The Opposition are clear that freeholders should not receive compensation in respect of non-litigation costs. A landlord selling his or her asset and receiving a share of the profit as a result is not sufficient justification for departing from an arrangement in which reasonable non-litigation costs are factored into the ultimate price. The decision to enfranchise or extend a lease is often not discretionary; it is often a requirement brought about by the fact that a lease is due to expire, because the payable premium is rising as the lease shortens, or as a result of the decision to move or remortgage.
We therefore fully support the intention in the Bill to provide for a new regime based on the principle that leaseholders are not required to pay the freeholder’s non-litigation costs in these circumstances. We note the Law Society’s concern that landlords are being asked to bear their own non-litigation costs, despite the fact that the proposed standard valuation method provided for by Schedule 2 will lead to payable premiums below full open market value because it caps the capitalisation rate. However—and this point touches on one of our previous debates—political decisions set the rules of the game for market competition. In our view, it is simply not the case that there is some kind of inherent market value for premiums entirely independent of legislation in this area. Every sale of a flat and every lease extension process relating to a flat since 1993 has been undertaken against the backdrop of the 1993 Act, which reduced ground rents to a peppercorn.
The market value for premiums is shaped by the laws that the House passes. It is right in principle that, to achieve the Bill’s objectives of making it cheaper and easier for leaseholders in houses and flats to extend their lease or buy their freehold, leaseholders do not pay non-litigation costs in addition to the payment of a premium, as determined by the new method proposed in Schedules 2 and 3. We believe that leaseholders should not be liable for these costs as a result of an enfranchisement or lease extension claim on principle, irrespective of the method by which the premium is calculated. That is why we take issue with the clause as drafted, because it does not protect all leaseholders from liability for costs incurred.
The clause as drafted entails only a selective extension of rights in this area, because it does not ensure that all leaseholders will no longer have to pay their freeholder’s costs when making a claim. Instead, it makes exceptions to the general rule, whereby the price payable for the freehold or extended lease is below an amount to be prescribed in regulations.
We understand the rationale—namely, that leaseholders should pay a freeholder’s non-litigation costs in such circumstances, so that low-value claims do not cost the freeholder money. The Minister has been very clear that the Government believe that this must happen to ensure that the process is fair for both sides. We also appreciate that there are risks in prohibiting a landlord from passing on non-litigation costs to leaseholders in cases where they would be required to spend more in carrying out the transaction than they received for the asset. The Law Commission highlighted a number of those risks, including the incentive created for landlords not to co-operate with a claim, or for them to transfer the low-value freehold into the name of a shell company and then liquidate the company.
However, we are concerned that exempting claims below a certain value will create a different set of practical problems. These include costly and time-consuming disputes in cases in which the price payable is close to the level of the non-litigation costs in question for low-value claims, and the potential for landlords to game the system by arguing for a price payable below the threshold in order to secure both it and associated non-litigation costs because of the burden of disputing the amount.
Taking a step back, we fail to see the logic in the Government’s position. On the one hand, they seem to be ignoring the Law Commission’s recommendations in relation to costs; they have chosen to provide for a general rule that leaseholders are not required to make a contribution to their landlord’s non-litigation costs, but have not chosen to adopt a valuation methodology that seeks to reflect open market value, which was the commission’s stated prerequisite for such a rule. On the other hand, they are following strictly the commission’s recommendations in respect of low-value claims.
Put simply, we believe that, by means of this Bill, we should take the political decision to remove any exception to the general rule that leaseholders are not required to pay the freeholder’s non- litigation costs in such circumstances. I hope the Minister will give this careful consideration; otherwise, this section of the Bill has the potential to undermine the stated aim to increase, simplify and reduce the cost of enfranchisement. I beg to move.
Baroness Thornhill (LD)
My Lords, when we started the debate today, I felt like I was wading in mud. I feel I am still in the mud—it has got thicker, and the fog has come down. This is a complex and complicated Bill. I have really enjoyed listening to the arguments and the debate; I have already learned a lot. Report will be a lot better—certainly for me.
I will try to keep my remarks short and my questions simple in order to seek clarification. The noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, has, in her own style, ably illustrated the issue and set out the case for her amendments in great detail. I will not repeat those—some paragraphs have already been knocked out of my speech.
The newly inserted Sections 19A and 89A set out the general rule that neither a current nor a former tenant is liable for any costs incurred by another person because of enfranchisement or a lease extension claim. However, new Sections 19C and 89C set out the exceptions to this rule. The debate is around whether these exceptions are justified. We are seeking the Government’s justification for this variance. Amendments 47 and 48 from the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, would delete these exceptions, so that leaseholders would not be liable to pay their landlord’s non-litigation costs under any circumstances. We agree. Each side should pay its own costs; we are unsure as to why this is not the case.
When this was debated in the Commons, the Government argued that, while the main aim of the changes to the costs regime was to address the imbalance of power that has existed between the landlord and tenant, they had a desire to ensure fairness on both sides. Sections 19C and 89C prevent the landlord incurring a net financial loss when leaseholders exercise their rights to enfranchisement and lease extension, thus acknowledging that this really is a balancing act. We look forward to the Minister’s comments as to how the Government have managed to keep the scales level.
I agree with the comments made in the debates on the last two groups. Some of the problems are because much too much is being left for later regulations, in either guidance or SIs. I believe that we should have had a clear government position on issues as important as landlord costs, deferment and capitalisation rates. This is still too vague. Such uncertainty is bad, not only for the leaseholders but for us parliamentarians who would hope to scrutinise and improve the legislation. However, I note the explanation from the Minister in the last group.
The Law Commission’s report highlights that the current law means that the landlord is overcompensated for these non-litigation costs. We support the Government in saying that costs should be balanced. It has to be said that these amendments raise important questions as to whether new Sections 19C and 89C undermine this aim. The noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, has made a good case to that effect.
Lord Gascoigne (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, for her Amendments 47 and 48, which seek to remove the exception on costs arising from low-value lease extension or freehold acquisition claims. While the Bill includes a new general rule that each side will bear its own costs, we believe that there need to be exceptions in certain circumstances so that the regime is fair for both sides. The low-value cost exception entitles landlords to receive a portion of their process costs from leaseholders in low-value enfranchisement and lease extension claims for flats and houses respectively. We believe that these are necessary provisions that protect landlords from unfair costs.
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord for that reply to my amendments. I am grateful for his reassurance about the costs relating to the difference between the low-value claim and where it ends up. That is a useful clarification. However, we will think through the possible implications of this before we get to Report. It seems iniquitous that the leaseholder is taking all the burden of any reduction in the value of the property and in the value of the lease, while the freeholder is exempted from that because they will then get their costs paid if that happens to be the case when the transaction takes place. We will give that some more thought before Report, but for now I am happy to withdraw my amendment.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would correct an error.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the removal of the amendment to the Housing and Planning Act 1986 in paragraph 16 of Schedule 8.
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on alternative amendments to the Housing and Planning Act 1986 being made in the new Schedule of consequential amendments to be inserted after Schedule 8.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook
“(4) Subsection (1) does not apply in any of the following cases— (a) the tenancy was created by the grant of a lease under Part 5 of the Housing Act 1985 (a “right to buy lease”);(b) the tenancy is, by virtue of section 3(3), treated as a single tenancy with a tenancy created by the grant of a right to buy lease;(c) the tenancy is a sub-tenancy directly or indirectly derived out of a tenancy falling within paragraph (a) or (b);(d) the tenancy was granted under this Part in substitution for a tenancy or sub-tenancy falling within paragraph (a), (b) or (c).”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would prevent the tenants listed from exercising the right in new section 7A of the LRA 1967 to have that Act apply without the amendments in the Bill.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook
“Part 2: consequential amendments to other legislationSchedule (Part 2: consequential amendments to other legislation) contains amendments to other legislation that are consequential on this Part.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause would introduce the new Schedule on consequential amendments to be inserted before Schedule 9.
Lord Young of Cookham
“Crown Application(1) For section 33 of the LRA 1967, substitute—“33A Crown land(1) References in this Act to “Landlord”, include the Crown Estate and the Crown where the Crown Estate or the Crown hold freehold land subject to long leases, howsoever such freehold land is held or acquired, including land falling to the Crown as demesne, or by Escheat.(2) The prevailing standard method of dealing with lease enfranchisement in the market, is the method of valuation and calculation of fees for enfranchisement, the extension of leases, or grant of a new freehold title for Escheat land held by the Crown Estate, the Crown, in accordance with this Act, and applies to all leaseholders seeking to enfranchise their leases.”(2) LRHUDA 1993 is amended as follows.(3) Omit section 88.(4) For section 94, substitute—“94A Crown Application(1) References in this Act to “Reversioner” and “Landlord”, include the Crown Estate and the Crown where the Crown Estate or the Crown hold freehold land subject to long leases, howsoever such freehold land is held or acquired, including land falling to the Crown as demesne, or by Escheat. (2) The prevailing standard method of dealing with lease enfranchisement in the market, is the method of valuation and calculation of fees for enfranchisement, the extension of leases, or grant of a new freehold title for Escheat land held by the Crown Estate, the Crown, in accordance with this Act, and applies to all leaseholders seeking to enfranchise their leases.””
Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
My Lords, this amendment deals with the obscure but important issue of escheat, which I suspect will empty the Chamber. When I was a Minister and put the 1993 leasehold Bill on the statute book, I made a statement to Parliament that, although the Crown was not bound by the various leasehold reform Acts, it would in practice follow the provision of such Acts relating to enfranchisement, lease extensions and collective freehold purchases.
However, there is a difference between where the Crown holds a freehold and accepts the responsibility of a landlord and where the Crown holds the land in escheat. William the Conqueror decreed that, henceforth, all land in the realm belonged to the Crown. The Crown would grant fee simple—freehold interests held from the Crown—on the one hand and leasehold interests on the other. Thus, where a freeholder dies without a beneficiary who can inherit the land, or where a freeholder company is liquidated, the asset falls back to the Crown. If the Treasury Solicitor disclaims the land, it falls into escheat and the original title is extinguished.
This creates a problem, and I apologise for talking legalese. If a non-escheat freehold is vested in the bona vacantia division of the Treasury Solicitor, existing tenants can, as per my statement to Parliament, serve notice on the Treasury Solicitor of their intent to enfranchise their leases, collectively or otherwise. The current government guidelines, set out on GOV.UK, then apply. That is form BVC4. The premium payable is calculated by a straightforward multiplier of the ground rent, plus a contribution to the Treasury Solicitor’s legal costs.
However, where land falling into escheat previously comprised a freehold subject to long leases, the Crown accepts no responsibility as the landlord. It neither collects the rent nor complies with the landlord covenants under the long leases. More importantly, with reference to escheat land, the Crown does not currently accept any responsibility under the leasehold reform Acts. This gives no opportunity for the long lease holders affected to extend their leases or purchase the freehold, pursuant to the provision of the leasehold reform Acts. They are left in limbo. It is worth remembering that, where properties are owned freehold by private individuals or companies, qualifying leasehold owners in those properties have a legal right under the Acts to enfranchise, unlike where the freehold is held in escheat.
The Crown can offer the sale of a new title, subject to the existing leases, or respond to an application by tenants to enfranchise but, crucially, it is not bound by any guidelines or formula, as would be the case under the said Acts. It arbitrarily sets its own legal and valuation fees without any mechanism for control. Equally, there is no formula for calculating the price, so in practice the Crown can ask what it wants, plus the costly fees of the private consultant lawyers and valuers, on a take-it-or-leave-it basis. This is at odds with its stated policy to return assets it controls to private ownership quickly and efficiently.
The impact of what I have just described clearly conflicts with the stated intent of the Bill—namely,
“to amend the rights of tenants under long residential leases to acquire the freeholds of their houses, to extend the leases of their houses or flats, and to collectively enfranchise or manage the buildings containing their flats”.
By way of illustration, I have been made aware of a case where the Crown Estate is demanding an inflated premium, plus expensive private consultant lawyers’ and valuers’ fees, which total four times the total cost of what the premium and fees for an enfranchisement would be under the BVC4 formula that I mentioned a few moments ago. This is not justifiable or equitable, and it is wrong that, where the asset is effectively controlled by the state, namely through part of the same government department, the Treasury, this behaviour should take place.
As the unexpired term of the leases becomes shorter, it becomes increasingly difficult and costly for these leaseholders to raise capital on the asset. The inevitable result is that many leasehold owners are unable to afford the inflated premium and the fees demanded by the Crown to ensure that the housing stock is compliant and fit for purpose. So long lease holders where escheat applies are left powerless and exposed to the whim of the Crown’s legal consultants and surveyor representatives. These anomalies need to be brought into the 21st century to keep in step with the intent of the Bill.
My amendment is designed to provide a level and equitable playing field for all long leasehold owners. The Crown must accept that all Crown land, whether held in escheat or otherwise, must be subject to the provisions of the various leasehold reform Acts, subject to specific exceptions only where land is of a nationally sensitive nature.
To conclude, I hope that my noble friend will undertake to get those assurances that I have just referred to from the Crown Estate and the Treasury. I beg to move.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, I follow that interesting speech by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, which explained his amendment clearly. It may be that the amendments in my name in this group, Amendments 93A and 106, are not necessary—but I am not certain yet, because it is a complicated subject, shrouded in mystery and secrecy sometimes. So I should like to speak to those two amendments as well and hope that we can have some good discussions, meetings and so on, between now and Report with the noble Baroness the Minister to see whether there is a solution.
My amendments refer only to the Duchy of Cornwall: let us be quite clear about that. That is partly because I do not think that the other two members of the Crown need it in the way that I am speaking, because they do not have lots of residential properties. Secondly, if one reads the Law Commission report, which went into some detail, one sees that the Crown Estates and the Duchy of Lancaster both agreed to comply with what the Law Commission recommended, whereas the Duchy of Cornwall did not. So we need to we need to consider some special legislation to cover just the Duchy of Cornwall’s ownership of land.
The other reason for saying this is that the Duchy of Cornwall, unlike the other two Crown groups, is in the private sector. It states quite clearly on its website that it is in the private sector. The argument is that it should be treated differently from other big estates, such as Cadogan, Richmond, Devonshire, and so on. They are all in the private sector and my understanding is that, whether they like it or not, they are going to go along with whatever happens with this legislation when it is accepted. But the Duchy of Cornwall will not do so.
I live in the Isles of Scilly, as noble Lords probably know, and I have a number of friends who have been trying to enfranchise and have been turned down. It is not a question of them looking for a 99-year or 999-year lease. Some of them want 50-year leases and they cannot have them, either, because the Duchy does not like it. So nobody who leases from the Duchy of Cornwall at the moment can enfranchise. That is unfair on the people who live there. The population is about 2,500 and they should be treated like everyone else in this country. Whatever the legislation says, they should do it.
The duchy’s argument, which goes to some length and is repeated in the Law Commission’s report, states all the wonderful things that the duchy does as a kind of landlord in Scilly. Well, it is not really true. The Scillies have a council, a local authority, like any other area. They have a Member of Parliament, water services and national landscape designation. I could go on with a long list of all the organisations, but the environmental concerns are properly looked after and there are even marine protected areas around there. I think the people of the Isles of Scilly would say that they are well set up to manage themselves, just like any other part of the UK. I am grateful to the Minister for meeting me and for the correspondence we have had, but trying to find some solutions is important.
Lord Mann (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I shall make a brief contribution to support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham. I want to make one additional point to add to the problems he clearly outlined for a person in this situation—to quote him unfairly—and the impact that has on them.
I have not been an elected representative for some years, but I took on many cases involving every kind of issue, and I have dealt with these issues. My files were rightly shredded some years ago when I entered this House, so I do not have the precise detail available, only my vague memories. However, I have one distinct memory. There are two types of people who have this kind of problem—those who have solicitors and are used to dealing with solicitors, and those who do not.
Occasionally those who had solicitors would come to me, normally when they were wondering whether there was a way of minimising the costs. I always used to listen for the mention of counsel’s opinion having been suggested: the thousands then started to ring up on the till instantly, because not all solicitors had quite the expertise in such matters as others might have had.
The more concerning cases were the people who came to see me who were not familiar with dealing with solicitors, and who were horrified at the predicament they were in, and the potential costs—not just the costs from the other side, but they costs that they might have to bear. The prospect was one of an unlimited amount of costs, well beyond their comprehension, their budget and their expectations. The psychological impact of that, as well as the risk, would lead to an incredible feeling of relief if someone like me, in an amateur but persistent way, was prepared to take on their case. That I remember distinctly, in precisely this kind of case. So the common sense that has been suggested is worthy not just of consideration but of enactment, by all sides of the House. I commend the amendment, which is highly appropriate.
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lords, Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Berkeley, on exposing and exploring the exceptions to the general rule in the legislation and its application. If we live in a democracy, the rule of law should apply to everyone without heed or hindrance, so I am grateful to both noble Lords for bringing this to the attention of the House. I hope that when the Minister responds she will be able to confirm that the Bill will apply to the Crown Estate and the Duchy of Cornwall, because it ought to.
Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)
My Lords, I rise briefly to thank the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, and my noble friend Lord Berkeley for providing the detail, with diligence and eloquence, in calling for what the noble Lord, Lord Young, called a level and equitable playing field for all leaseholders in that situation, particularly in relation to Crown land. I want to press the Minister on getting information from the Government about to what extent Crown and Duchy of Cornwall land would be affected by the amendments, and on providing clarification on the important and pertinent points that both noble Lords raised.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My Lords, I will briefly speak to the amendments in my name before turning to the amendments in the names of my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham and the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. Government Amendment 83 is a clarificatory amendment. Clause 67 outlines that all of Sections 18 to 30P of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 bind the Crown, and that the relevant provisions bind the Crown whether or not they relate to Crown land.
As a result, Section 172(1)(a) of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002 will be repealed. Since subsections (4) and (7) of Section 112 of the Building Safety Act 2022 amend the 2002 Act, these subsections are no longer necessary.
I now turn to the amendments in the names of my noble friend Lord Young, and the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. I thank my noble friend Lord Young for his Amendment 54, which seeks to bind the Crown to the enfranchisement measures in the Bill and to apply those measures to properties subject to escheat. It is a long-established principle that legislation does not bind Crown lands, including the Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall, unless the Act expressly states so or by necessary implication. Where an Act, or a part of an Act, does not bind the Crown, the Crown can and often does agree to act in accordance with the legislation.
The current position is that most Crown leaseholders enjoy the same lease extension and enfranchisement opportunities as other leaseholders, by virtue of the Crown’s undertaking given to Parliament to act by analogy with the Leasehold Reform Act 1967 and the Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act 1993, which are not directly binding on the Crown. We also expect that the Crown will agree to act by analogy with the Bill before us. The effect will be that most leaseholders of the Crown will have the same opportunity to extend their lease or buy their freehold as any other leaseholder would, except in certain special circumstances set out in an undertaking we expect to be given by the Crown. Therefore, the outcomes the Government want to see can be achieved without legislation, and the amendment is unnecessary.
I would also like to thank my noble friend for raising an important point in his amendment about properties subject to escheat. The Government recognise that when the freehold becomes ownerless, it can cause problems for some of those leaseholders. However, the amendment would not achieve its intended aim because when a property escheats to the Crown the freehold no longer exists, and the Bill is not the appropriate place for a review of the complex law surrounding ownerless land. When a property becomes ownerless the land and buildings escheat to the Crown. If a purchaser is interested, the Crown can sell it so that it goes back into private ownership.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for a very detailed reply, and I thank her for her interest in this project. I have one question: will we be able to see a draft or a copy of the undertaking from the Crown, which she has mentioned several times, before Report?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My answer is that I am not sure, but I will make sure that I let the noble Lord know. If we can do that, obviously we will.
Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mann, for reminding us that it is often a rather one-sided battle, with leaseholders confronted by freeholders with massive resources. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, for her support for my amendment.
As far as the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, is concerned, I have happy memories of replying when I was on the Front Bench to his Duchy of Cornwall Bill. He spoke at somewhat greater length on that occasion about the need for major reform of the Duchy.
On the specific issue that I raised, I am not expecting any legislative change because my noble friend said, quite rightly, that the Crown is not bound by legislation, but she said on several occasions that the Crown would act by analogy with the terms of the leasehold Acts. I think that gives me what I want, so long as it covers the Crown acting as freeholder as well as the Crown acting as owner of land in escheat. At the moment, that is not the case. At the end of my remarks, I asked whether my noble friend would be good enough to get the necessary assurance from the Crown Estate and the Treasury that they would deal with escheat applications in the same way as applications for where they are the freeholder.
I am grateful to my noble friend for her sympathetic reply. I think I can build on the undertaking that she has given to make some progress. I do not want to wait until the Law Commission has gone round the course all over again, whenever that may be. The leases that I referred to are coming towards the end of their time, and each delay adds to the potential cost for the leaseholders.
I hope we can make progress without waiting for a Law Commission report. It is simply a case of the Crown acting equitably and doing exactly what my noble friend has said: acting by analogy and delivering the laws that have been passed by Parliament. On that basis, I am happy to withdraw the amendment at this stage.
Childcare Entitlements
(7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made yesterday in another place by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education. The Statement is as follows:
“With permission, Mr Speaker, I will make a Statement on the successful first stage of the largest ever expansion of childcare in England’s history being made by this Government.
The Government have a strong track record of supporting parents with the cost of childcare, supporting disadvantaged children and ensuring that childcare is of high quality, with 96% of early years settings rated as good or outstanding by Ofsted. In 2010 we extended the three and four year-old entitlement, commonly taken as 15 hours a week for 38 weeks of the year; in 2013 we introduced 15 hours of free early education a week for disadvantaged two year-olds; in 2017 the three and four year-old entitlement was doubled to 30 hours per week for working parents; and in March 2023, recognising that childcare is one of the biggest costs facing working families today, my right honourable friend the Chancellor announced the biggest investment in childcare by a UK Government in history, so that by September 2025 working parents will be able to access 30 hours of free childcare a week from when their children are nine months old until they start school.
By the time this expansion is complete, parents using the full 30 hours can expect to save an average of £6,900 a year, a hugely significant saving for their family finances. We are staggering the expansion to ensure that there are the staff and places available to meet parental demand, and this month marked the first stage of the rollout, with eligible working parents now able to receive 15 hours of government-funded childcare for their two year-olds for the first time. Last month my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education informed the House that we expected 150,000 children to benefit from the expansion from the beginning of this month. As we set out in our official statistical report, 195,355 parents were already benefiting from this on 17 April, and we have subsequently broken the 200,000 mark. We will publish further official statistical reports in due course.
As Members will know, the system involves parents applying for a code that they take to a provider to be validated in order to obtain a place. The first phase of the rollout is showing a trajectory similar to that of our previous expansion of childcare, in 2017. On 5 September 2017, 71% of codes had been validated. As of 17 April this year, 79% had been validated by providers, and we have broken 81% as of this week. With every rollout, some eligibility codes go unused for a variety of reasons, such as parents changing their minds about formal childcare, or being issued with a code automatically even though they did not need one. In the case of our well-established offer for three and four year-olds, about 12% of codes have not been validated, but as with previous rollouts, we expect the number of children benefiting from this new entitlement—and the number of codes validated—to grow in the coming weeks and months.
As was the case in 2017, no local authorities are reporting that they do not have enough places to meet demand. I pay tribute to early years providers, local authorities, membership bodies and other key stakeholders who have worked closely with us to ensure that the first phase of the rollout was successful and parents could access places, and we will continue to work closely with them for the next phases of the rollout. The first of those will begin in September, but parents will be able to start applying for 15 hours of childcare for their nine month-olds from 12 May, ready to receive these in September. I am also delighted to announce that parents on parental leave, and those who are starting a new job in September, will be able to apply for childcare places from 12 May, instead of having to wait until 31 days before their first day of work, as has been the case until now.
Delivering such a large expansion requires more staff and more childcare places. We estimate that we will need 15,000 more places and 9,000 more staff by September 2024, and that for September 2025, which will see the largest phase of the rollout, a further 70,000 places and 31,000 staff will be needed. Last year the number of childcare places increased by about 15,000, and the number of staff by about 13,000, even before the rollout began and before the significant steps that the Government are taking, beginning with rates, to increase capacity in the sector.
The Institute for Fiscal Studies has independently confirmed that funding for the new two year-old entitlement is significantly higher than average parent-paid fees. According to the Government’s provider pulse survey published last week, the largest barrier identified by the sector—by 45% of respondents—to expansion of its provision was future funding certainty, a message that I have heard clearly from the many providers I have visited in recent months. In his 2024 Budget, the Chancellor committed to ensuring that funding rates for all entitlements would increase by the measure used last year in the 2025-26 and 2026-27 financial years. That estimated £500 million of additional funding over those two years will provide a level of certainty that we are confident will help to unlock tens of millions of pounds in private sector investment, ensure that rates keep up with provider cost pressures, and give providers a greater opportunity to increase staff pay.
This year, to support recruitment to the sector, we launched a £6.5 million recruitment campaign titled “Do something BIG. Work with small children”, and thousands of people are visiting the campaign website every week to find out more about the great early years and childcare careers that are available. In January we introduced changes to the early years foundation stage to give providers greater flexibilities to attract and retain staff, and yesterday we launched a technical consultation setting out the department’s proposals for how a new experience-based route could work for early years staff who have relevant experience from other sectors but do not have the full and relevant qualifications that we require.
Due to the falling birth rate over recent years, some primary schools have space that they are no longer using, and some have closed entirely. In order to support our expansion of childcare, we have launched a pilot to explore how some of the unused school space could be repurposed to enable childcare settings to offer more places. If the pilot is a success, the Government will roll that out more widely.
Our progress in delivering this transformative expansion in early education and childcare underscores this Government’s unwavering dedication to empowering families, supporting the childcare sector, and building a prosperous future. I commend this Statement to the House”.
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
Baroness Twycross (Lab)
My Lords, I welcome the opportunity for us to discuss the Statement made yesterday in the other place. I thank the Minister for repeating it today in your Lordships’ House. Noble Lords present are probably united in thinking that the Government’s aspiration in expanding free childcare is welcome. However, unfortunately, it appears that currently only the Government believe that their flagship policy is on track.
My first question to the Minister is: why are Ministers proactively bringing a Statement to Parliament to say that everything is on track, when the Government’s own auditors are now saying otherwise, without the Government acknowledging that there are issues? When I suggested yesterday at Oral Questions that the policy was in trouble, the Minister stated that
“it is a huge success”.—[Official Report, 23/4/24; col. 1369.]
I woke up to headlines that indicated that I was not far off. In light of the report published today by the National Audit Office, will the Minister accept that the policy is, at the very least, at risk of not going to plan? Even the Telegraph is reporting that parents are facing worse childcare under this Government’s childcare expansion.
Are the Government still guaranteeing that every eligible child has a spot now, that every eligible child will have a spot later this year, and that every eligible child will have a spot in September next year? Are parents getting the savings that they have been promised? Why have the Government repeatedly dismissed genuine concerns about the rollout of the plan, when the problems are so clear and stakeholders across the board are highlighting the same problems?
Even the DfE has the expansion as its top programme risk, with risks including insufficient places, operational infrastructure not being ready, insufficient parental demand and an unstable market. When will the Government make a formal response to the NAO’s report? Furthermore, could the Minister confirm that the DfE has itself
“assessed its confidence in meeting milestones beyond April 2024 as ‘problematic’”?
Does she agree with the NAO that the extension does not “achieve its primary aim” or demonstrate “value for money”? How did the DfE think it was appropriate to set dates for expansion without engaging with the sector or understanding local authorities’ and providers’ capacity? Will the Government act on the NAO’s recommendations about continuously reviewing the achievability of the 2025 milestones and will they now publish interim performance thresholds?
I return to the point I made to the Minister yesterday: the DfE’s own pulse survey from last week found that 45% of childcare and early years providers said it was unlikely that they would increase the number of places they offer to under-threes as a result of the Government’s childcare expansion. The NAO estimates there is in fact a net reduction in places—albeit just a 1% reduction —since 2018, but this is at a point at which we need a significant increase in places. Could the Minister outline what the DfE’s plan is if it accepts that it will struggle to reverse this trend, if it finds that the providers simply cannot afford to offer free places, or the one in three nursery and pre-school providers that the Early Years Alliance says are at risk of closure simply do not survive? This would potentially put 184,000 places in jeopardy. How does the Minister explain the disparity between what the Government say and what the sector, parents and councils, and now the NAO, are saying?
The Statement repeated today states confidently that
“no local authorities are reporting that they do not have”
sufficient “places to meet demand”. This is very different from the National Audit Office view that only 9% of areas are confident that they will have enough places. To clarify this point, I contacted the Local Government Association, which told me that councils have reported greater concerns about the next stages of the expansion, where it will extend to children and families who would not previously have accessed childcare to this extent. It is deeply concerned about provision for families that require a different range of childcare options, such as outside traditional hours, or families for children with SEND.
The Coram Family and Childcare survey found that England has seen reductions in the availability of childcare in all categories. Worryingly, the greatest reductions have been in childcare for disabled children, which I understand is now at 6% sufficiency. Can the Minister say why this is the case and what the Government will be doing to remedy this? Local authorities are also concerned about recruitment, particularly because of the higher ratios required for under-twos. They are concerned about the lack of sufficient level 3 qualified staff in the sector. Is the Minister confident that recruitment is on track?
There is broad consensus on the need for a decent childcare and early years offer, including increasing free hours. It is a shared ambition across political parties to have an improved system that works for parents and carers and delivers the best start in life for children. Labour genuinely wants better childcare and early years provision. We have commissioned a review by Sir David Bell to assess a way forward. We want a well-planned, well-designed system that delivers for children and improves the offer to parents.
I am confident that the Minister also wants a system that works, but the first step in this instance to getting that has to be for the Government to accept that there are problems, and work to get this scheme back on track. I look forward to her response as to how, in light of the serious risks facing this flagship government policy, the promised expansion in free childcare and early years provision will be delivered.
Lord Storey (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her detailed Statement. I would guess that all of us aspire to the aspirations that she espoused on childcare. The issues that we are concerned about—and they concern a number of people—are around whether this can be delivered. I listened to the Statement with great care and the words that were missing were not about numbers but about quality. I have always believed, as my party always has, that it is not just about providing childcare. It has to be quality childcare—and I did not get a sense of that in the Minister’s Statement. There are a number of issues. She mentioned pay, quite rightly, but it is about training as well.
As we have heard, the National Audit Office has raised concerns that plans to extend free nursery provision could compromise—again, that word—the quality of childcare as the sector expands to meet demand. The NAO cautioned that hiring inexperienced staff and a lower supervision ratio for two year-olds could undermine childcare quality. There are also worries about whether inspections by Ofsted would identify issues early enough. The NAO has highlighted concerns about the Department for Education’s confidence in delivering required places, with only 34% of local authorities expecting to have enough places by this September. On the other hand, the Minister has painted an extremely positive picture of rollout. It will be interesting to see who is right.
This ministerial Statement did not mention or address the up-and-coming report and findings, which have been described as utterly damning by the early years sector. The Government must address the findings of this report urgently. The report concludes that there is a risk posed by
“the lack of contingency and flexibility”
in the Government’s “fixed, ambitious timetable”. It is therefore important that clarity and reassurance is provided quickly on how they will address the report’s findings. Families across the country will struggle to plan their arrangements if certainty over the next phase of the rollout is not provided.
Only 17% of nursery managers said that they could offer the extended entitlement, due to the crisis of recruitment and retention. What will the Government do to address this recruitment and retention issue?
Finally, I was interested to hear about the campaign to use unused schools. The Government want to set up what I think they call “in-home nurseries” to create some of the 85,000 places needed. How many schools will be used in the pilot scheme that the Minister told us about? If the scheme is successful, how many schools do they think they will be able to finally use?
Baroness Barran (Con)
I thank both noble Lords for their questions and for sharing, as we all do across this House, the ambition for all children, as we know the importance of a great start in life.
I will start, if I may, where the noble Baroness did in relation to the National Audit Office report and her question, which was echoed by the noble Lord, about when we will respond to the National Audit Office formally. I can give the House some sense of that today but, in terms of timing, we will also be giving evidence on this subject to the Public Accounts Committee on 8 May—so our plan is to respond to both the NAO report and the Public Accounts Committee in the normal way.
On the NAO report itself, I absolutely understand why both noble Lords rightly raise its challenging aspects, but it is also worth noting some of the more positive aspects. The NAO report identifies that the programme has been fundamentally successful in the rollout so far, meeting and actually surpassing the April 2024 objective. It confirms that the trajectory and take-up of this expansion in entitlement is the same as previous expansions. It also notes that it expects that the number of places being taken up will continue to grow and notes the phased introduction of the new entitlement.
On the recommendations, the noble Baroness opposite raised the achievability of the September 2025 milestone, whether the department would be setting interim performance thresholds and how we would respond with corrective action, if needed. Of course, we continually review the deliverability of the programme. We have a local authority delivery team; we have our insight unit, which analyses the data; and we have pulse surveys, stakeholder groups and provider groups, so we are really well connected into the sector. We have set a series of milestones that cover local authority readiness, sufficiency and workforce and, by the end of June, we will set regularly spaced performance thresholds. We will use those to assess the growth of capacity places and the workforce. Of course, those can and should be updated as needed, as we get live data in.
By the end of June this year, we will agree a set of staged corrective actions, if those actions are needed. To support that, we will also use our data better. We regularly update both our supply and demand modelling, and we share that directly with local authorities. We have a set of KPIs for the programme, which we monitor regularly.
The noble Lord, Lord Storey, raised a point about the quality of staff and the risk that, with less experienced staff, the quality might suffer. We do not really accept that. Back in 2021 we made major reforms in early education, which the noble Lord will remember. These were designed to improve outcomes for all children, but particularly for disadvantaged children and children with special educational needs. In October last year we published the evaluation report of those reforms, which showed that practitioners have really benefited.
As we continue with the rollout, we will be looking at the availability and quality of places for children from disadvantaged backgrounds. Similarly, for those with special educational needs and disabilities, we will be looking at what the impact is if we see new providers and staff entering the market.
We have also commissioned and funded the children of the 2020s study, which collects longitudinal data on elements that influence cognitive and social and emotional development during early childhood. Obviously, we will share that data.
Deliverability was a key part of both noble Lords’ questions, and the workforce is a critical part of that. It is fair to say that, where we are further away from a delivery deadline, it is not unreasonable that confidence in readiness might be lower. Looking at where we were in November in our pulse survey and what providers were saying about their readiness for April, 65% of them said that they were ready. By the March survey, one month ahead of the extension, that figure had risen by 16 percentage points to 81%. That is just normal.
It is also important to note that all types of providers that took part in our pulse survey have increased their capacity in the last year by over 20% for group-based and school-based providers. The figure is rather more for childminders although, as your Lordships know, they represent a smaller part of the market. On applications, for group-based and school-based providers, the number of applicants to vacancies is now on average five to one, which is a really healthy and promising indicator for the future.
The noble Lord also talked about retention, which is clearly critical. It will be important to improve retention in order to reach our objectives. The additional funding, the visibility of funding and the ability of providers to plan will make recruitment and opportunities in this sector more attractive, but there is work to do to deliver that.
The noble Lord also asked about the number of schools. We are working in a small number of areas with those schools to build a template of what might work. We will test that and, if it is successful, roll it out.
The noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, asked about wraparound care outside formal hours. In the Spring Budget last year, we announced £289 million to support the expansion of wraparound childcare for primary school-aged children.
Finally, the noble Baroness rightly raised concerns over this programme delivering for children with special educational needs. She will remember from my remarks yesterday that we are conducting a review of how the special educational needs inclusion fund works to make sure that it is as good as it can be.
We have chosen a phased approach to make sure that we learn as we go along with the implementation of this expansion, but we are doing everything we can to make sure that it is a success.
Baroness Andrews (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister began by saying that this is the biggest expansion in childcare, and she is right; we share those ambitions. But it is because it is the biggest expansion we have experienced in childcare that the NAO report is so worrying.
Among the things the report says, in many different ways, is the difficulty the DfE has in getting the right data to plan properly. While I have listened to what the Minister said about how the DfE will respond, with better benchmarks and so on, I find it very difficult to know how it will do that given the quality of data. I will quote from page 33 of the report:
“Given limited engagement, DfE does not know the market’s willingness and capacity to increase places … There remain uncertainties over whether the sector can expand”.
If you take that set of uncertainties, it becomes clearer why this is the DfE’s top risk. The risks have already been enunciated by my noble friends. They include risks to places, operational infrastructure, insufficient parent demand and an unstable market. That is an extraordinary range of risks. The risk register must be glowing red. Can the Minister share the risk register with us so that we can see where the DfE sees the greatest risks coming from and what the responses will be? If she cannot do that, maybe she can explain how the risks identified are being addressed on a systematic basis.
I turn to the conclusion of the NAO report. It says that the DfE
“has assessed its confidence in meeting milestones beyond April 2024 as ‘problematic’. It must now use available data to understand when it needs to intervene”.
But, as I said, if the quality of data and access to data are so limited, how will the department do that?
The conclusion ends:
“In extending entitlements, the government’s primary aim is to encourage more parents into work. Even if DfE successfully navigates the significant uncertainties”,
which are documented throughout the report,
“it remains unclear whether the extension will achieve its primary aim, represent value for money and not negatively impact DfE’s wider priorities relating to quality and closing the disadvantaged attainment gap”.
Each of those phrases carries tremendous weight, particularly the last one about the attainment gap. How are the Government going to respond credibly to that set of very authoritative statements?
Finally, I have a general point. The NAO report is a reality check. I have every sympathy with the Minister and with the DfE in trying to deliver this, because it is a huge challenge. One of the reasons for that is that it is an object lesson in how not to make policy. The Government did not consult the providers early enough or get an understanding of what the market was like on the ground. They did not address the historical underfunding, as we discussed when we debated this last November, which was built into the system from 2013 onwards, and did not understand the lack of resilience in the sector. The Minister talked about retention and recruitment but, in fact, between 2018 and 2023 an increase of only 5% was achieved in recruitment and retention. The target for the coming years is much higher.
This is a very serious report, and it is going to demand from the department a very serious and credible reply. The real risks are the risks to parents, who want and need to be able to count on this service, and to children, who need quality provision, which they are not likely to get unless investment is properly guaranteed and targeted.
Baroness Barran (Con)
I have to say that I did not agree with everything that the noble Baroness asserted. To start with the risk register, it is not glowing red, but it is of course a priority risk for the department. The noble Baroness understands this extremely well from her previous experience. We are doubling the commitment in this area financially: we will spend £8 billion a year once this rollout is complete, from £4 billion today. That is a massive increase, and it is a real challenge in a market with a number of small providers and with the way in which, rightly, we work through local authorities and providers. So it would be irresponsible—and I think that the noble Baroness would be criticising the Government—if it was not a significant risk for the department. But that means that it gets a great deal of focus, and there are very detailed plans to support it.
As for consulting the sector, I slightly take exception to what the noble Baroness said. The department works very closely with the sector, providers, parents and local authorities, and it is crucial that we do, because we are committed to getting this right.
As for the willingness of providers, and the point that the noble Baroness picked from the report about our understanding of willingness and capacity, as I pointed out earlier, capacity for all types of provider rose by over 20% last year. That is very significant, as I am sure that the noble Baroness agrees. On the point about willingness, almost 40% of group-based providers, 33% of school-based providers and 42% of child minders said that they would be more likely to offer places to children under three, given this expansion. About half of them—it is slightly different, but I shall not bore the House with all the numbers—said that those would be additional places, so they would not be substituting an older child with a younger child.
Where I absolutely agree with the noble Baroness is that this is a very serious report. We take it very seriously, and we will respond in full.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, like every other speaker, I have read with concern the National Audit Office report, which talks about the lack of qualified staff and suitable space, which could have an impact on the quality of provision. I share the concerns about qualified staff, but we have not had much discussion about the suitable space side of the issue. The Minister may have to write to me later, but it would be interesting to know how many of these are actually new facilities, how many facilities are closing— we are still hearing reports of facilities closing—and what the comparative quality of the space of the new provision is.
One thing that I was thinking about, which is something that the Minister and I have discussed before, is access to green space. We are increasingly understanding how terribly important that is for the health and well-being of everybody, but particularly young children. What percentage of the new provision is in places that have access to space? Is expanding the number of places reducing the amount of access to green space per child? What information do the Government have about the quality of the spaces of these new provisions? That is something that the National Audit Office has brought to our attention, and it really deserves more focus.
Baroness Barran (Con)
On building capacity, the department has awarded £100 million to local authorities to help expand capacity. On the quality of space, as the noble Baroness knows, early years settings are regulated by Ofsted. It has very clear standards that they have to meet, and we expect them to meet them.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
My Lords, the NAO report suggests that many of the issues and challenges that we have heard about this evening would have been mitigated if the Government had not cancelled the £35 million pilot. I wonder whether the Minister can tell us why we cancelled the pilot and what assessment has been made for phases 2 and 3 of the scheme, having not done it.
Baroness Barran (Con)
The noble Baroness hits on perhaps the one thing on which we do not accept the recommendation from the National Audit Office. We made a decision not to run the pilot because we did not think that it would contribute meaningfully to readiness or provide value for money. The key decision we took was that this would be a phased rollout, so that local authorities, providers and parents all had time to adapt. We are continuing to test and review delivery on an ongoing basis; we are piloting different interventions to support workforce expansion through financial incentives in 20 local authorities. What we found from the evaluation of the 2017 rollout was that providers were willing to offer more hours, and were able to offer sufficient hours, and that there were no adverse impacts on other provision. We also found that providers were really flexible. We are very fortunate to have providers that are so focused on outcomes for parents and, of course, for their children.
Leasehold and Freehold Reform Bill
Wednesday 24th April 2024
(7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Leasehold and Freehold Reform Act 2024 View all Leasehold and Freehold Reform Act 2024 Debates Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 50-II(b) Amendments for Committee (Supplementary to the Second Marshalled List) - (24 Apr 2024)
“Abolition of forfeiture of a long lease(1) This section applies to any right of forfeiture or re-entry in relation to a dwelling held on a long lease which arises either—(a) under the terms of that lease, or(b) under or in consequence of section 146(1) of the Law of Property Act 1925.(2) The rights referred to in subsection (1) are abolished.(3) In this section— “dwelling” means a building or part of a building occupied or intended to be occupied as a separate dwelling, together with any yard, garden, or outhouses and appurtenances belonging to it or usually enjoyed with it;“lease” means a lease at law or in equity and includes a sub-lease, but does not include a mortgage term;“long lease” has the meaning given by sections 76 and 77 of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause would abolish the right of forfeiture in relation to residential long leases in instances where the leaseholder is in breach of covenant.
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
My Lords, our amendments in this group go to the heart of one of the current serious injustices relating to leasehold: that of forfeiture. It is quite simply anachronistic, wholly disproportionate and complete imbalance in the relationship between leaseholders and landlords. In some circumstances, a debt of a few hundred pounds can trigger the ability to take possession of the property. What my honourable friend the shadow Minister for Housing in the other place called
“the chilling effect that results from its mere existence”.—[Official Report, Commons, 27/2/24; col. 203.]
puts landlords in a nearly unassailable position of strength in disputes with leaseholders, as I hope I illustrated in my earlier quote from an elderly leaseholder. Unfortunately, the threat of forfeiture is too often used routinely by landlords as a first resort when seeking to recover alleged arrears in payments from leaseholders, and so often invoked to deter leaseholders from disputing any unreasonable costs and defending claims.
Our first amendment is reasonably straightforward: it is basically a matter of disproportionality and consistency. A real estate solicitor summed it up very neatly in his evidence to the Commons committee. He said:
“It is extremely welcome to see the government’s proposed clause 59 and amendment NC4 relating to the abolition of remedies relating to rentcharges. It is also very welcome to see the proposed amendment NC1 which would abolish forfeiture in long residential leases, which is long-overdue. However, there is a key point that does not seem to be addressed: forfeiture in relation to rentcharges. Rentcharge deeds often reserve a right of forfeiture for non-payment which operates in the same manner as a forfeiture clause in a lease. The Committee clearly recognises that the expropriation of somebody’s property as a remedy for breaches of a lease on an extra-judicial basis is entirely inappropriate and unfair. Therefore, it should equally concern the Committee that the same remedy is available in many cases in relation to rentcharges. Therefore, I would ask that the Committee either add to proposed amendment NC1 or propose an additional clause to abolish any right of forfeiture under a rentcharge”.
This amendment would ensure that leaseholders are in no worse a position than anyone else subject to a challenge to ownership would come under. So, while we accept the principle that legal remedies should be available, we do not believe that forfeiture provides adequately for leaseholders to challenge or defend themselves from repossession.
Our other amendments are a bit more complicated on paper, as they would replace Clause 111, which currently provides remedies for arrears of rent charges where the rent charge remains unpaid for a period of 40 days, one of which is the ability for a rent charge owner to take possession of a freehold property in instances where a freehold homeowner fails to pay a rent charge. But in essence it is very simple. It would simply mean that debts have to be sued for, as you would for any other kind of debt. In short, the 1925 Act provides for the power to seize freehold houses for non-payment of a rent charge, even if the arrears are merely a few pounds, and allows the rent charge holder to retain possession or render it, in effect, worthless by means of maintaining a 99-year lease over it.
In our view, the remedies provided in the 1925 Act are a wholly disproportionate and draconian legacy of Victorian-era property law. The 1977 Act prohibited the creation of new rent charges and provided for existing rent charges to be abolished in 2037, but 13 years from now is still a long time away and any lease granted prior to the abolition will remain in force. Rent charges are therefore an area of law in respect of which legislative reform is long overdue and the need to protect rent payers from what amounts essentially to a particularly severe form of freehold forfeiture as a result of the relevant remedies provided by the 1925 Act is pressing.
We understand that the Minister in the Commons called this argument “reasonable” and implied that it could be revisited if the Government were able to consider the potential consequences of such a change, so I press the Minister that, if we are asked to withdraw our amendment today, she will at least consider whether the Government can deliver the effect we all want to see via a government amendment. We feel very strongly about this issue and I hope it will not be necessary to continue to press this point through to Report. I beg to move.
Lord Truscott (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I wish to address the issue of forfeiture and support Amendment 55 in the name of the noble Baronesses, Lady Taylor of Stevenage and Lady Pinnock, and Amendment 95 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor. I absolutely agree that leaseholders should not be subject to forfeiture in the case of a debt of a few hundred pounds or a temporary breach of covenant. Indebtedness can be dealt with by the county court and bailiffs. For that reason, I support Amendment 95 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage. However— I know this may be controversial with some noble Lords—I am concerned that a blanket ban on forfeiture would remove an effective deterrent preventing some leaseholders persistently and wilfully breaching their leases by, for example, anti-social behaviour.
Let me give three practical examples I have come across in my years as a leaseholder. The first concerns a landlord who was letting out his flat on Airbnb, in breach of his lease. He knew he could make more money doing this than letting it on a long lease. As noble Lords know, Airbnb can cause a serious nuisance in blocks of permanent residents, due to excessive noise, wear and tear and lack of security impacting on quiet enjoyment. The landlord/leaseholder in question stopped only when threatened with forfeiture for breaching the lease.
The second involved a leaseholder putting a hot tub under a neighbour’s window, in clear breach of the lease, as only patio furniture was allowed to be displayed on the terrace, and threatening their quiet enjoyment. When challenged, their approach was dumb insolence. “What are you going to do about it?” was their approach. The threat of forfeiture ensured its removal.
The third example is more personal. My wife was attacked in our own garden by a neighbour’s tenant’s large dog, which was in a flat in breach of the lease. The gardens are open, with no boundaries, so dogs wandering around under no control are a problem. Let me be clear, I am a dog lover—I had two dogs as a child—but I am also conscious that there has been a massive increase in dog attacks in recent years. Official NHS figures reveal that, in the year to March 2023, there were 9,277 hospital admissions in which the patient had been bitten or struck by a dog. The number of people killed by dogs has also risen dramatically. In the last 20 years or so, the number of fatal dog bites has averaged about three per year; however, by 2022, it had risen to 10 fatalities and is still climbing. These cases are horrific and worrying.
Many blame the owners, not the dogs. Too many owners seem unwilling or unable to control their dogs and this behaviour is unfortunately widespread, as I have witnessed myself on a number of occasions. The dog in our block stayed, but when the leaseholder/landlord tried to introduce another tenant with another large dog, after the first attack, again in breach of the lease, it was only the threat of forfeiture that resolved the situation. Dogs may be appropriate in many surroundings, but in others they are excluded in leases for a reason.
Thus there are occasions when the mere threat of forfeiture, rarely used in practice, is useful to ensure compliance with lease obligations. Other legal routes can be extremely costly, lengthy and ineffective. So I ask the supporters of a complete ban on forfeiture how they propose to enforce compliance with leases and prevent breaches in the future if this proposal is carried.
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 55, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage, because it seems to me, as it does to the noble Baroness, that this is one of the clear injustices in the current leaseholder-freeholder relationship. The amendment is rightly restricted to the abolition of forfeiture of a long lease.
I thought it was straightforward until I heard the noble Lord, Lord Truscott, outline some of the issues that he believed could be addressed only through forfeiture. I was surprised that we have to go to such draconian ends to deal with a fairly straightforward neighbour dispute.
Lord Truscott (Non-Afl)
The problem is that, if you try to enforce a lease, what is your route? The only other route would be to go to the High Court, and that would be a very lengthy process. I am saying that the threat of forfeiture is often enough for people to see sense. I have never come across a case in which people have actually gone through the whole process of forfeiture.
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
I thank the noble Lord for expanding on that.
It would be interesting to hear from the Minister whether there are any statistics regarding freeholders using the forfeiture system to address not the issues that are normally referenced—failure to pay ground rent or an accumulation of three years or more of debt—but breaches of the lease. It would be helpful to understand all that.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, has said, if the payment in lieu is more than £350, or is outstanding for more than three years, the freeholder is entitled to claim repossession—and then all the equity in the property is lost, of course. When I first looked at this, I could not see how it could possibly be right. I remember that, at Second Reading—I was just trying to find it in Hansard—the Minister said that the Government were considering bringing forward an amendment to address this issue. It is unfortunate that that has not been forthcoming in the time that has elapsed between Second Reading and Committee. Perhaps in her reply, the Minister can say whether the Government intend to bring an amendment on Report. It would help us resolve what is, on the face of it, a complete injustice. It would be sufficient if the Minister said that that is going to happen, and maybe those of us who have signed the amendments could have a meeting with her to discuss it, if necessary.
Lord Bailey of Paddington (Con)
I support this amendment. Although in his intervention the noble Lord talked about how to control peoples’ behaviour when they have misbehaved and breached their lease, it should be taken into account that the threat of forfeiture is held over leaseholders, in a very draconian fashion, for the smallest infraction. More importantly, it is used to enforce such things as the flagrant and inequitable boosting of service charges. If you are in dispute in this situation, you are told you will end up having to pay court fees. You are told that, if you do not pay—
Lord Truscott (Non-Afl)
To clarify, I said specifically that people should not have their leases forfeited as a result of rent arrears. The threat of forfeiture can ensure that lease compliance occurs. If you remove the threat of forfeiture, how do you achieve compliance with other terms of the lease?
Lord Bailey of Paddington (Con)
There are ways and means within our court system to reclaim any money that may be owed to the freeholder for service charges, ground rent and so on. Let us be very clear that forfeiture is used as a tool to threaten, bully and cajole leaseholders into compliance. When your freeholder invents a new reason as to why you have to pay more, you are warned that, if you do not do so, you could be taken to court for forfeiture. You are then told by the system that, if you do pay more, it is seen as agreeing with the bill that was presented to you.
Lord Truscott (Non-Afl)
I am not talking about freeholders taking action against other leaseholders; I am talking about how one leaseholder may want to enforce a lease against another leaseholder. In that case, you are saying that they would have to go to the High Court to enforce the lease, and that is a very lengthy and protracted process. I am not talking about the relationship with the freeholder or indebtedness; I am talking about how to enforce the lease between leaseholders, and I gave the example of Airbnb using a block of flats.
Lord Bailey of Paddington (Con)
It would be extraordinary, though possible, if fellow leaseholders could invoke forfeiture but the freeholder could not. That would be incredible, and I am sure it would have all its own problems.
The point remains that, if you keep some kind of forfeiture, freeholders will want to keep hold of that power, because it is exactly that: an unfettered, threatening power, which leaseholders speak about as though it is mythical, like a dragon that will burn you if you stand up to the freeholder. Words fail me when I try to describe how forfeiture must go. We have had many conversations in which the word “feudal” has been bandied about. This is one occasion where it has real meaning. Forfeiture should and must go.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, first, I declare a number of interests to the House. I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association, the chair of the Heart of Medway Housing Association, a non-executive director at MHS Homes Group, and a leaseholder.
Before the Bill arrived, it promised a lot. As it stands it is doing much less than that, so in a sense it is a fairly timid Bill. However, some of the things it does are actually very useful. I support the amendment of my noble friend Lady Taylor of Stevenage on forfeiture; it needs to be abolished. I have also listened to the noble Lords, Lord Truscott and Lord Bailey, and both make very valid points. The Government should listen and bring an amendment that addresses the points they made. That is not impossible, as far as I can see; it is absolutely right that there should be some remedy to deal with this.
Equally, we cannot have people being bullied into paying the service charge or ground rent; that it totally wrong. There must be remedies to deal with those things: if someone is owed money, they should get it, but forfeiture—losing their entire asset—is ridiculous. I hope that, on both points, which are extremely valid, the Government say to us that they hear what people are saying and that they will look at this issue and come back with amendments.
I want to ensure that people can enjoy their property without being annoyed by parties, noise and other trouble, and that there is a remedy to enforce that if need be. Equally, if someone has a freeholder coming after them, they could actually lose their property, or, worse, the freeholder could use their service charge or ground rent to take them to court. We need to deal with all these things.
I hope that, at the end of what will probably be a fairly short debate, the Government will recognise that there is a problem here and will help us by bringing back an amendment to deal with these issues; or, as the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, said, that they will get people together around the table to try to sort this out. The Bill is not doing much, but this is something very positive it could do.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Baroness Scott of Bybrook) (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, for her amendments in this group, which seek to remove forfeiture from the leasehold and freehold estate.
Amendment 55 seeks to address one of the ways in which leasehold law is tilted in favour of landlords. I know that noble Lords from all sides of the House are sympathetic to this intention, as are Members from the other place, where this same clause has already been debated.
Forfeiture is widely recognised as a draconian and unfair measure which is open to abuse. The main objection to the current law is that, should the landlord forfeit the lease and go on to sell the property, this allows them to make a large windfall gain at the expense of the leaseholder, who loses everything. Abolishing forfeiture would reduce the risk to the leaseholder of losing their home and would prevent abuses.
Abolishing forfeiture without replacing it with an alternative enforcement mechanism would mean that landlords would have recourse only to ordinary civil debt recovery and injunction proceedings, which, as we have heard, can be lengthy and are not always effective. In the absence of forfeiture or an alternative, there is a danger that a greater number of leaseholders may refuse to pay their fair share of the cost of maintaining their block or estate, and we have to take this all into account.
Noble Lords asked how many cases there are. We do not have the exact number, but stakeholders give us estimates of between 90 and 120 cases per year. It is not a big issue, but it is a very important one for those people.
Lord Bailey of Paddington (Con)
The number of cases will not indicate the use of forfeiture, because forfeiture is wielded as a fiery dragon. Leaseholders speak about it as the dog that bites. The number of cases may be small, but I would argue that the use of forfeiture is probably far greater.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
I have said that it is not the right way of doing it, and we want a different way. That is exactly what the Government are looking at.
We have to be clear that the upkeep and safety of buildings is also paramount. Landlords, be they third parties or resident management companies, need effective mechanisms for securing prompt payment to ensure that those properties are insured and maintained in the interests of everybody else in the block.
We recognise that there is the potential for significant inequity at hand where a landlord stands to gain a windfall when a lease is forfeited. However, I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, and the Committee that the Government have been listening to calls for us to act. The Government continue to work through the detail and we will report to the House shortly with more information. In the meantime, I welcome members of the Committee sharing their views on this matter, which the Government will reflect on when formulating their position.
In addition, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, for Amendment 95, which seeks to abolish Section 121 of the Law of Property Act 1925 in respect of all rent charges. Let me be clear: the Government are sympathetic to the issue raised by the noble Baroness. We recognise that forfeiture is an extreme measure and should be used only as a last resort. Any changes will require careful consideration of the rights and responsibilities of all interested parties.
Clause 111 already seeks to abolish forfeiture for income-supporting rent charges, which are still in existence, even though the creation of new charges of this nature has been banned since 1977. However, some types of rent charges may still be created, including estate rent charges, which are used for the provision of services on managed estates.
Where they are created, estate management companies need a means to recover sums owed to them. Failure to do so means that costs may fall on other home owners, or the upkeep of an estate will worsen, to the detriment of everyone living on that estate. The problem may be particularly acute for resident-led management companies which do not have alternative sources of funding.
It is important that we fully understand any unintended consequences. This is an issue that we are carefully considering. I hope that, with those assurances, the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, before the Minister sits down, most of what she said was very welcome. The acceptance that forfeiture is draconian, unfair and open to abuse—we agree with that. It is not the right way to do things, as the Minister said.
Specifically on inequality, we all agree with that, and it was good to hear the Government say that. A bit more disappointing was that I did not hear the Minister say, “I want to meet colleagues”; nor, “We hope to bring an amendment back on Report to address this”. All we got was, “We will formulate our position”.
There is agreement around the Chamber that what we need to see is an amendment that addresses all these issues. We would like a commitment to get us all together, and to hear from the Minister that she hopes there will be an amendment on Report. If we do not do that, there have been lots of warm words here but not much else has been achieved.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My Lords, I thought the Committee was probably fed up with me saying that I am always very happy to meet any group of noble Lords, on any subject, at any time. I apologise for not saying it in this group, and I will never ever forget to say it in any group in the future. Also, I said that we will report back to the House shortly with more details. I think the noble Lord needs to look at those words—they are quite positive.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
I am not saying they are not positive. At the end of the day, to make progress we need a government amendment, or an amendment that somebody else tables that the Government will support, at the next stage. That is progress; that is what I am trying to push. I know the Minister is very generous with her time, and wants to get this right, and wants to meet colleagues. I am just trying to get it on the record, that is all. I know the Minister has been good every time that colleagues have raised this issue in the House, and I have a Question on it again on, I think, 22 May. I thank her very much.
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, for supporting these amendments and the noble Lords, Lord Truscott, Lord Kennedy and Lord Bailey, for their comments.
In relation to the Minister’s comments about the time it takes to do this, I repeat that the Conservative Party has had this in its manifesto since 2017, so there has been quite a lot of time to think this through and have a look at this. It is a bit disappointing that we are in Committee in the House of Lords with some of these key issues still unresolved.
I ask your Lordships to reflect on, first, the example I gave in the earlier debate, of the elderly couple who told me they have a dispute with their landlord and are being threatened with forfeiture. They potentially have a £15,000 bill for the costs. If they pay that charge it is taken as agreement, but failure to pay it means that the landlord can invoke forfeiture, so where do they go? That is an awful position to put people in.
My second example is a young lady who I was out with the other day doing our political work. She lives in a leasehold flat; she put a political poster up in her window and then, almost immediately, received a letter from the landlord threatening her with forfeiture because that breached the terms of her lease. That seems an onerous way of dealing with a relatively small issue.
I listened carefully to the noble Lord, Lord Truscott, and he is right that there needs to be some form of resolution to this that means it does not need to go to the High Court—but it should certainly not be forfeiture, which is totally disproportionate. There may be a need to consider remedies other than the big sledgehammer of the High Court. Threatening to repossess people’s homes is certainly not an answer to technical breaches of lease.
Regarding rent charges, they will still be in place until 2037. We have to look at this and see whether we can find some way of getting rid of them before then.
As the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, said, if we have to bring this amendment back again, we will, but I would rather the Government did so. That said, I withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook
“Schedule Part 2: consequential amendments to other legislationParliamentary Commissioner Act 1967
1 In Schedule 4 to the Parliamentary Commissioner Act 1967 (relevant tribunals), in the entry relating to rent assessment committees, omit “and also known as leasehold valuation tribunals for the purpose of determinations pursuant to section 21(1), (2) and (3) of the Leasehold Reform Act 1967”.Leasehold Reform Act 1979
2 In section 1 of the Leasehold Reform Act 1979 (price of enfranchisement under the LRA 1967 not to be made less favourable by reference to superior interest), in subsection (1), after “the price payable on a conveyance for giving effect to that section” insert “, in a case where the price payable is determined under section 9(1) of that Act by virtue of section 7A of that Act,”.Local Government Act 1985
3 In Schedule 13 to the Local Government Act 1985 (residuary bodies)—(a) in paragraph 14(aa), at the end insert “, where it applies by virtue of section 7A or 32(5) of that Act”;(b) omit paragraph 17.Housing Act 1985
4 In the Housing Act 1985—(a) in section 115 (meaning of “long tenancy”)—(i) for subsection (2)(c) substitute—“(c) at the time it is granted, it complies with the specified requirements.”;(ii) after subsection (2) insert—“(3) The “specified requirements” are—(a) in the case of a tenancy granted before 11 December 1987, the requirements of the Housing (Exclusion of Shared Ownership Tenancies from the Leasehold Reform Act 1967) Regulations 1982 (S.I. 1982/62) (including where the tenancy was granted before those regulations came into force);(b) in the case of a tenancy granted on or after 11 December 1987 and before the 2024 Act commencement day, the requirements in paragraph 2 of Schedule 2 to the Housing Association Shared Ownership Leases (Exclusion from Leasehold Reform Act 1967 and Rent Act 1977) Regulations 1987 (S.I. 1987/1940);(c) in the case of a tenancy granted on or after the 2024 Act commencement day, requirements specified in regulations made by the appropriate authority.(4) The “2024 Act commencement day” is the day on which paragraph 11 of Schedule 8 to the Leasehold and Freehold Reform Act 2024 comes into force.(5) “The appropriate authority” means—(a) in relation to England, the Secretary of State;(b) in relation to Wales, the Welsh Ministers.(6) Regulations under subsection (3)(c)—(a) are to be made by statutory instrument;(b) may make provision generally or only in relation to specific cases;(c) may make different provision for different purposes or different areas;(d) may include supplementary, incidental, transitional or saving provision.(7) A statutory instrument containing regulations under this section is subject to annulment in pursuance of—(a) where it contains regulations made by the Secretary of State, a resolution of either House of Parliament; (b) where it contains regulations made by the Welsh Ministers, a resolution of Senedd Cymru.”;(b) omit section 175 (determination of price payable on enfranchisement under LRA 1967 where tenancy created under right to buy).Landlord and Tenant Act 1985
5 In section 26 of the LTA 1985 (exception to service charge restrictions for public authority tenants)—(a) for subsection (3)(c) substitute—“(c) at the time it is granted it complies with the specified requirements.”;(b) after subsection (3) insert—“(4) The “specified requirements” are—(a) in the case of a tenancy granted before 11 December 1987, the requirements of the Housing (Exclusion of Shared Ownership Tenancies from the Leasehold Reform Act 1967) Regulations 1982 (S.I. 1982/62) (including where the tenancy was granted before those regulations came into force);(b) in the case of a tenancy granted on or after 11 December 1987 and before the 2024 Act commencement day, the requirements in paragraph 2 of Schedule 2 to the Housing Association Shared Ownership Leases (Exclusion from Leasehold Reform Act 1967 and Rent Act 1977) Regulations 1987 (S.I. 1987/1940);(c) in the case of a tenancy granted on or after the 2024 Act commencement day, requirements specified in regulations made by the appropriate authority.(5) The “2024 Act commencement day” is the day on which paragraph 11 of Schedule 8 to the Leasehold and Freehold Reform Act 2024 comes into force.(6) Regulations under subsection (4)(c)—(a) are to be made by statutory instrument;(b) may make provision generally or only in relation to specific cases;(c) may make different provision for different purposes or different areas;(d) may include supplementary, incidental, transitional or saving provision.(7) A statutory instrument containing regulations under this section is subject to the negative procedure.”Housing and Planning Act 1986
6 In Schedule 4 to the Housing and Planning Act 1986 (shared ownership leases), in paragraph 11 (transitional provisions and savings)—(a) in sub-paragraph (1), at the end insert “, subject to sub-paragraphs (1A) and (2)”;(b) for sub-paragraph (2) substitute—“(1A) The amendment made by paragraph 7 (repeal of section 140 of the Housing Act 1980) also applies in relation to leases granted before the commencement of this Schedule, except in cases where, under section 7A or 32(5) of the Leasehold Reform Act 1967, the Leasehold Reform Act 1967 has effect without the amendments made by the Leasehold and Freehold Reform Act 2024.(2) In those cases, this Schedule does not affect the operation of section 140 of the Housing Act 1980, the enactments applying that section or regulations made under it.”Housing Act 1988
7 In Schedule 17 to the Housing Act 1988 (minor and consequential amendments)—(a) omit paragraph 40;(b) omit paragraph 68. Local Government and Housing Act 1989
8 In paragraph 5 of Schedule 10 to the Local Government and Housing Act 1989 (security of tenure for long residential leases)—(a) in sub-paragraph (4), for the words from “unless” to the end substitute “unless—(a) the landlord is a relevant authority, and(b) the premises are required for relevant development.”;(b) after sub-paragraph (4) insert—“(4A) For those purposes—(a) “relevant authority” means a person referred to in any paragraph of section 38(2) of the Leasehold Reform Act 1967;(b) “relevant development”—(i) in relation to a relevant authority other than a health authority, means development for the purposes (other than investment purposes) of that body;(ii) in relation to a relevant authority that is a health authority, means development for the purposes of the National Health Service Act 2006 or the National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006;(iii) in relation to a relevant authority that is a university body, also includes development for the purposes of any related university body;(iv) in relation to a relevant authority that is a local authority, also includes area development;(c) “health authority” means—(i) NHS England;(ii) any integrated care board;(iii) any Local Health Board;(iv) any Special Health Authority;(v) any National Health Service trust;(vi) any NHS foundation trust;(vii) any clinical commissioning group;(viii) any Strategic Health Authority;(ix) any Primary Care Trust;(d) “university body” and “related university body” have the same meaning as in section 29(6ZA) of the Leasehold Reform Act 1967;(e) “local authority” has the same meaning as in section 29(5) of the Leasehold Reform Act 1967;(f) “area development” means any development to be undertaken, whether or not by a local authority, in order to secure—(i) the development or redevelopment of an area defined by a development plan under the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004 as an area of comprehensive development;(ii) the treatment as a whole, by development, redevelopment or improvement, or partly by one and partly by another method, of any area in which the premises are situated.”Local Government (Wales) Act 1994
9 In Schedule 13 to the Local Government (Wales) Act 1994, in paragraph 24—(a) omit paragraph (b);(b) in paragraph (c), at the end insert “, where it applies by virtue of section 7A or 32(5) of that Act”.Housing Act 1996
10 In the Housing Act 1996—(a) omit section 109 (collective enfranchisement: valuation);(b) omit section 110 (lease extension for flats: valuation);(c) in Schedule 10 (consequential amendments)— (i) in paragraph 6, omit sub-paragraph (4); (ii) omit paragraph 18;(d) in Schedule 11 (compensation for postponement of termination in connection with ineffective claims)—(i) in paragraph 2, omit sub-paragraph (2);(ii) in paragraph 3, omit sub-paragraph (2).Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002
11 In the CLRA 2002—(a) omit section 126 (collective enfranchisement: valuation date);(b) omit section 127 (collective enfranchisement: freeholder’s share of marriage value);(c) omit section 128 (collective enfranchisement: disregard of marriage value for very long leases);(d) in section 130 (lease extension for flats: residence test), omit subsection (2);(e) omit section 132 (lease extension for flats: personal representatives);(f) omit section 134 (lease extension for flats: valuation date);(g) omit section 135 (lease extension for flats: freeholder’s share of marriage value);(h) omit section 136 (lease extension for flats: disregard of marriage value for very long leases);(i) in Schedule 13 (leasehold valuation tribunals), omit paragraph 15.Finance Act 2003
12 In the Finance Act 2003—(a) in Schedule 4 (stamp duty land tax: chargeable consideration), for paragraph 16C substitute—“16C The following do not count as chargeable consideration—(a) costs borne by the purchaser under section 9(4) of the Leasehold Reform Act 1967, where it applies by virtue of section 7A of that Act;(b) any amount payable by the purchaser under section 19C of the Leasehold Reform Act 1967;(c) any amount payable by the purchaser under section 89C or 89D of the Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act 1993.”(b) in Schedule 17A (leases: further provision), in paragraph 10 (tenants’ obligations etc that do not count as chargeable consideration), for sub-paragraph (1)(f) substitute—“(f) any liability of the tenant for costs under section 14(2) of the Leasehold Reform Act 1967, where it applies by virtue of section 32(5) of that Act;(fa) any amount payable by the tenant under section 19C of the Leasehold Reform Act 1967 or section 89F of the Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act 1993;”Companies Act 2006
13 In section 1181 of the Companies Act 2006 (access to constitutional documents of RTE and RTM companies)—(a) in the heading, omit “RTE and”;(b) in subsection (1), omit paragraph (a);(c) in subsection (4), omit the definition of “RTE companies”.Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013
14 In section 84 of the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013 (redress schemes: property management work), in subsection (10), omit the words from “or which” to the end. Immigration Act 2014
15 In Schedule 3 to the Immigration Act 2014 (excluded residential tenancy agreements), in paragraph 13(2)(a), omit the words from “or which” to the end.Consumer Rights Act 2015
16 In section 88 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (duty of letting agents to publicise fees: supplementary provisions), in subsection (1), in the definition of “long lease”, omit paragraph (a)(ii) and the “or” preceding it.Housing and Planning Act 2016
17 In Schedule 10 to the Housing and Planning Act 2016 (leasehold enfranchisement and extension: calculations)—(a) omit paragraph 4;(b) omit paragraph 5.Tenant Fees Act 2019
18 In section 28 of the Tenant Fees Act 2019 (interpretation), in subsection (1), in the definition of “long lease”, omit paragraph (b) and the “or” preceding it.Building Safety Act 2022
19 In Schedule 8 to the BSA 2022 (remediation costs), in paragraph 6 (permitted maximum)—(a) in sub-paragraph (5), omit “total” in each place it occurs;(b) in sub-paragraph (8)—(i) for “total” substitute “tenant’s”;(ii) for “section 7” substitute “section 101(1)”.”Member's explanatory statement
This new Schedule would make amendments to other legislation in consequence of Part 2.
Lord Khan of Burnley
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment would ensure that all leaseholders, not just those with residential leases of 150 years or over, have the right to vary their lease to replace rent with peppercorn rent.
Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)
My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 57 in the name of my noble friend Lady Taylor of Stevenage. Schedule 9 makes provision for a new enfranchisement right to buy out the ground rent and to vary it permanently to replace the relevant part of the rent with a peppercorn rent, without having to extend the lease. We welcome the intent of the schedule. The reform will ensure that leaseholders can enjoy reduced premiums and secure nominal ground rent ownership of their properties, without the need to go through the challenge and expense of repeated lease extensions.
The schedule implements the Law Commission’s recommendation for the right to extinguish the ground rent only. However, we have brought an amendment that would delete the Government’s proposed 150-year threshold, to press the Minister on the reason for which the Government have decided to confer that right only on leaseholders with leases with an unexpired term of more than 150 years.
The Law Commission recommended that the threshold should be set at 250 years on the basis that the reversion is of negligible value at that lease length. The Government chose not to accept that recommendation and, instead, are proposing a threshold of 150 years. The Minister may provide us with a different answer in due course, but we assume the reason that they did so is simply that this will make the new right to extinguish a ground- rent available to many more leaseholders. However, if that is the case, it obviously follows that setting a threshold of, say, 125 or 100 years would make it available to even more of them.
As my honourable friend Matthew Pennycook MP stipulated in the other place,
“any long lease threshold for the new right is ultimately entirely arbitrary, as evidenced by the fact that the Government chose a different threshold from the one recommended by the Law Commission”.—[Official Report, Commons, 27/02/2024; col. 201.]
There is a principled argument that we should trust leaseholders to make decisions based on what is right for them and their individual circumstances, rather than denying a broad category of leaseholders a new statutory right on the basis that Ministers know best what is in their interests.
If unamended, Schedule 9 will ensure that some leaseholders can enjoy reduced premiums and secure nominal ground rent ownership of their properties, without the need to go through the challenge and expense of repeated lease extensions. However, we remain unconvinced by the Government’s proposed conferral of this new right only on leaseholders with leases with an unexpired term of more than 150 years. There could be all sorts of reasons why someone with a lease shorter than 150 years might want to buy out only the ground rent, including simply that they are unable to afford the premium required to secure a 990-year lease. Denying them that right on the grounds that other leaseholders might advertently or inadvertently disadvantage themselves, by using the new right to extinguish only the ground rent, strikes us as overly paternalistic and misguided.
We remain of the view that there is a strong case for simply deleting the 150-year threshold entirely, given that the remaining years test that applies is arbitrary and the most common forms of lease are 90, 99 and 125 years. Amendment 57 would do that, thereby making the new right to replace rent with a peppercorn rent available to all existing leaseholders. I beg to move.
Baroness Thornhill (LD)
My Lords, I support Amendment 57 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage. As has been said, Schedule 9 confers on a qualifying tenant the right to buy out the ground rent and replace it with a peppercorn rent. Instead of the extended leases that are paid for each time, it is a decision to make a one-off payment—job done once and for all.
This is a welcome measure. However, as has been said, under paragraph 2 of Schedule 9, the tenant must have at least 150 years left on their lease to qualify. Amendment 57 from the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage, would ensure that all leaseholders, not just those with residential leases of 150 years or over, have the right to vary their lease in this way and replace it with a peppercorn rent.
The provisions on the variation of leases and removal of ground rent are complex, but they are based on the principle of granting leaseholders flexibility and a recognition that different solutions might be preferable for the different situations that they are in. The argument has been put forward that these provisions should apply to leases that are sufficiently long, with the Law Commission recommending a very long length of 250 years and the Government settling on 150. Therefore, Amendment 57 rightly probes that length. If not 250 years, why not 125 years, 90 years or indeed no threshold for length at all?
Data on this was hard to find, but DLUHC’s English Housing Survey of owner-occupier leaseholders for the year 2020-21 found that 45% of leaseholders had a leasehold term between 71 and 120 years, and that the median length of leases was 112 years. This suggests that there could be lots of leaseholders with reasonably long leases who would not be given these rights in relation to ground rent.
I would also like colleagues to note that mortgage lenders are now getting very active on ground rent terms and taking an ever more conservative view on ground rent clauses. They are refusing to lend on leasehold homes where the ground rent is seen as onerous—the definition of that might be that it continues to double or that there are other strictures in place. This means that some leaseholders will be left with flats that are difficult to sell, as well as an escalating ground rent.
We would therefore welcome further information from the Minister about whether these provisions could be extended to cover more leaseholders, especially given their own figures.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My Lords, I will speak to government Amendments 58 and 59 in my name. Government Amendment 59 changes “premium” to “price”, referring to the sum paid for a ground rent buyout, to make the language consistent with the rest of the Bill. Government Amendment 58 makes a minor wording change to clarify that it is “the appropriate tribunal” that may make an order to appoint a person to vary a lease on behalf of the landlord or tenant in the case of a commutation following a ground rent buyout. I hope noble Lords will therefore support these amendments.
I turn to Amendment 57 from the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, and moved by the noble Lord, Lord Khan of Burnley. This seeks to remove the threshold for the ground rent buyout right. I appreciate the concerns that lie behind this amendment and understand that the noble Baroness is seeking to ensure that as many leaseholders as possible can benefit from the new right. First, it is very important to note that all leaseholders, regardless of their term remaining, have the means to buy out their ground rent. They do so whenever they extend their lease or buy their freehold. It is only the right to buy out the ground rent without extending the lease or buying the freehold that is limited to leaseholders with 150 years or more remaining. The 150-year threshold exists to protect those leaseholders with shorter leases who will, at some point, require an extension from being financially disadvantaged by first buying out their rent, only having to extend later and paying more in total for doing so. However, we understand the argument that all leaseholders should be able to buy out their rent without extending their lease or buying their freehold if they want to, and we are listening carefully to that argument.
The Law Commission recommended 250 years, but it noted that the department might want to set the threshold lower. The department’s analysis showed that 150 years would enable more leaseholders to take advantage of the ground rent buyout right, while still being a long enough term remaining that the leaseholder does not need to extend if they do not want to. A lower minimum term would create a risk that poorly advised leaseholders might buy out the ground rent when an extension is in their best interest, then find out that they need to extend later and have to pay a higher premium, except for the extension, and two sets of transaction costs. We believe this is helping the leaseholder.
I hope that the noble Baroness will appreciate the reasons we have given for the existence of the threshold, and those assurances, and withdraw her amendment.
Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)
My Lords, I rise very briefly to thank the Minister for her response. I appreciate the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill. In the future, we will look to work with colleagues across the House to see where we are on this. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment would correct an error.
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment would reflect other amendments in the Bill to change references to the premium to references to the price.
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment would leave out the proposed new section 87B of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002 and so ensure that RTM companies cannot incur costs in instances where claims cease.
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
My Lords, our amendment in this group refers to the fact that the Bill currently makes an exception to litigation costs being borne by landlords in the case where right-to-manage claims have been withdrawn or otherwise ceased early and the right-to-management company has acted unreasonably in bringing the right-to-management claim, allowing the landlord to apply to the tribunal for any reasonable costs.
The key arguments for the amendment are that, first, leaseholders should not be put at risk of having to pay costs simply for exercising statutory rights, in this case the right to seek to acquire and exercise rights in relation to the management of premises in which one has a leasehold interest. There is also concern that unscrupulous landlords might use the rights provided for in new Section 87B of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002 as a means of recovering costs from right-to-manage companies that act reasonably and in good faith and, by implication, that it would discourage right-to-manage companies from initiating a claim because of the financial risk it still entails for individual participating leaseholders. Put simply, the fear is that new Section 87B will incentivise unscrupulous landlords to fight claims on the basis that they are defective in the hope of recovering costs by means of it. Our main concern regarding Clause 48 is that the use of the words “reasonable fee” and “reasonable costs” would not allow either of the above situations to occur. I ask the Minister: who will determine the definition of “reasonable”, and how?
I will comment on other amendments. We think that the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Bailey, are very reasonable, and we support his aims here. In fact, colleagues in the other place submitted similar amendments in Committee.
I also look forward to hearing the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, introduce his amendments, which would incorporate local authorities and their properties, both within the HRA and without, but I ask whether he had discussions about this proposal with the Local Government Association or local authority stockholders. Most good local authority landlords already have substantial arrangements in place for liaison with leaseholders and tenants around the management of property, and there is certainly no issue with improving that through more effective right-to-manage arrangements. However, as much local authority property will be occupied by a mixture of local authority tenants and leaseholders, it would be important to ensure that there were no unintended consequences. I urge that that level of consultation takes place before any proposal such as this proceeds further. The noble Lord, Lord Moylan, will forgive me if he has already done that consultation, but it was not clear from the amendments. With that, I beg to move Amendment 60.
Lord Moylan (Con)
My Lords, it is a privilege to speak after the noble Baroness. I will come to answering her question. To give a blunt answer, I have not undertaken the consultation that she refers to, but I will explain when I get to that part of my introduction why I think that this stands on its own.
As I said at Second Reading, I strongly support those parts of the Bill which facilitate the exercise of the right to manage on the part of leaseholders in residential blocks. There are several measures in the Bill which do that. The right to manage is, in some ways, the crucial key to unlocking the levels of dissatisfaction which some leaseholders have with the way in which their blocks are managed. I strongly support it.
There is a particular issue which the Bill does not address. As a consequence of my general support for this—contrary to my remarks in earlier debates— I hope that the Government will give me a softer and more welcoming answer. As a result of my proposal, perhaps my noble friend on the Front Bench will even give me one of those answers which invites me to attend a meeting. In fact, I have had a meeting with my noble friend about this, though she may not recall it. We met last summer to discuss this issue with officials, and she was very sympathetic to it. That gives me additional reasons for thinking that this might be a welcome amendment.
The amendment arises from a particular case, but it raises questions of general importance. I shall refer to the case later, but I want to address the question of general importance first. When the right to manage was introduced through the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002, certain exceptions were placed on it. The Government intend to ease some of those restrictions, and I welcome that. One restriction was that the right to manage did not apply where the landlord of the building was a local housing authority.
I have tabled two alternative amendments—this is my point about consultation. Both amendments would reverse that assumption. One would eliminate it entirely. It would bring within the ambit of right to manage all blocks where the local housing authority was the landlord, including those within the housing revenue account. The noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage, said that this could raise certain difficulties in cases where a block had so many long lease holders that it could exercise the right to manage but would be left with certain local authority tenants in the block. I have experience of local government, as does the noble Baroness. I recognise that she is correct in saying that there might be certain sensitivities about this. I think it could be managed. Indeed, it would be liberating for all the tenants of the block in many ways. The local authority tenants would also have a say in the management of the block. They would not be excluded from it simply because they were local authority tenants.
Recognising that this is a slightly daring proposition, I have suggested an alternative which would simply take out of the provision local housing authority-owned blocks where they were owned simply as an investment. I have left it vague as to whether that is a commercial investment or one held in the local authority’s pension fund. These are probing amendments. I should be happy to discuss these issues with my noble friend the Minister.
I come now to a particular case. There are blocks where local authorities have acquired property as an investment. Doing so immediately extinguishes the right of the long lease holders to exercise their right to manage—there are no local authority tenants. I think that is wrong. The case I am thinking of concerns a block acquired by a London local authority from a commercial property investment trust, bought at market value as an investment. The local authority, the new owner, was dissatisfied with the accounts inherited from the previous manager—it had their own manager for the block. As a result, it has not been able to put satisfactory accounts together for the last three years. As a consequence, it has not had the legal standing to issue invoices to its tenants for its service charges. It has been running the building’s operating costs out of the capital sums that had been set aside as a sinking fund to pay for future improvements to the building. It is all very unsatisfactory.
That is a classic situation in which long leaseholders would normally exercise the right to manage but, completely arbitrarily, are precluded from doing so. That is wrong. We should facilitate this.
At the very least, my noble friend should welcome my second amendment, Amendment 62, and say that where a local authority acquires a property for commercial purposes—not for the housing of its tenants but as an investment, either in its own name or as part of its pension fund—the right to manage would be restored. The financial interests of the local authority would be preserved, as they are under the current arrangements. It is simply that the right to manage the building would be taken over by the long leaseholders, as elsewhere, and they would manage it in just the same way as in all the other right-to-manage arrangements we are so much in favour of.
I will stop at that point because I have simply made my case, but this is a strange omission from the current arrangements, and one that we now have an opportunity to correct. I would be very happy to attend the meeting.
Lord Bailey of Paddington (Con)
My Lords, I will speak to my Amendments 65A and 65B. The Government should be applauded for their ambitions as laid out in the Bill. Let us hope that we can achieve them all. I put on record that I am pleased with the Government’s direction of travel, because some of my interventions up until now may have seemed slightly belligerent, but can my noble friend the Minister provide some reassurance around the Government’s stated aim of a revolution in the right to manage? That would help to address what, for me, is at the heart of what I consider the leasehold scandal, which is really about control. Leaseholders in England and Wales are unique in the lack of control that they have. Worldwide, leaseholders and those with commonhold and many other types of tenure have much more control. I believe that is something the Bill can address, and the Government have to demonstrate that they want to deliver on it. Indeed, it was our own Secretary of State who said that he wants to see a revolution in the right to manage.
I put on record my colleagues Nickie Aiken and Barry Gardiner, who brought a very similar amendment in the other place. Amendment 65A seeks to ensure that leaseholders in mixed-use property who would otherwise qualify for the right to manage because 50% or more of the floorspace is residential, but because of a technicality—a boiler or an underground car park—are prevented from having that management given to them, still have that right. The current test means that you have to demonstrate that your building is self-contained or that the residential part is partly self-contained, but the layout of the building might suggest that it is not self-contained due to an underground car park or boiler room, when actually it is.
The Law Commission saw these two tests as too strict. It suggested that a third test could be set whereby, if it could be demonstrated that people are reasonably capable of managing the residential area fully independently, they should be given access to this power. As I have stated in most of the debate, the thing that most drives me is the potential for the abuse of service charging. Giving residents control over their assets is clearly the answer to that.
The amendment does not mean that leaseholders can take over the management of shops, hotels or commercial premises. That is not the idea of the amendment. The right to manage applies exclusively to the residential parts, such as corridors and lift lobbies —parts of the building used only by residents. The amendment does not seek to change that position.
At Second Reading, I made the point that even the leading freeholder lobby group pointed out that free- holders own, at best, only 2.5% of the capital interest in the buildings they have the freehold of. That leads me to my other amendment, Amendment 65B. We must lower the threshold at which a group of people can take over the management of that lease. It is currently at 50%. I suggest that it should be at around 35%—again, to help the Government achieve their stated aim of a revolution in right to manage.
Baroness Thornhill (LD)
My Lords, I have asked to speak to the amendments in this group, which is a bit shorter than it would have been had the Clause 47 stand part notice remained. That was certainly something on which I would have urged the Government to stand firm.
We strongly support Amendment 60 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage. Anyone who has done a bit of googling on the right to manage can see that right-to-manage claims by leaseholders are often fiercely opposed by freeholders. What is meant to be a so-called no-fault process can involve costly and stressful litigation for leaseholders, as freeholders drag the right to manage claim into the tribunal system. Freeholders gameplay and try to block RTM bids, because the right to manage signifies loss of their control and ability to rip off leaseholders in perpetuity.
Against this backdrop of right-to-manage cases going to tribunal and becoming the subject of “lawfare” by freeholders, it is surely reasonable to ensure that right-to-manage companies cannot incur costs in instances where claims cease. The way things stand, it is clearly intended to be a disincentive to leaseholders to seek the right to manage, and that imbalance cannot be right. Some noble Lords may remember the Canary Gateway case: it took an outrageous four years for the shared-ownership leaseholders to secure their right to manage, with the freeholder-driven litigation going as far as the Court of Appeal.
Turning to Amendments 61 and 62 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, we on these Benches would support them in principle as they are increasingly sold as access to the right to manage. However, they stand in stark contrast to the noble Lord’s other amendments, which sought to reduce leaseholder access to collective enfranchisement and right to manage.
Baroness Thornhill (LD)
I hesitated and thought about cutting that bit out, but go on.
Lord Moylan (Con)
The noble Baroness could not expect to get away with that. Any attempt to cast me as a as a poodle of freeholders and opposed to leaseholders is bound to be foiled because it is untrue. I have made it clear throughout that I strongly support the right to manage and its extension. This is very different from expropriation of somebody else’s property. This is simply a technique for managing a building and managing it well.
I should also say while I am on my feet that when we exercised the right to manage in the block in which I live, many years ago, the freeholder was highly supportive because they were sick to death of the managing agent as well, and realised that their building would be managed a great deal better by us, as it has been. They have an interest in the building being well managed: they want the roof to be repaired; they want the facade not to fall off in chunks in the street because, after all, they, too, whatever else is said, have a long-term interest in the building.
Baroness Thornhill (LD)
My comments were not about right to manage. That was a good segue into another short speech by the noble Lord.
However, we are conscious that expanding right to manage to leaseholders under local authority landlords was never considered by the Law Commission, nor put out to public consultation. We are unsure whether the Government have done policy work in this area. It is a whole other ball game and will be challenging. But, in principle, given that many local authorities have been guilty of significant and tragic failures of service, to put it mildly, this should be a right of local authority tenants too. But it will be complex, for many of the reasons that were well outlined by the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor.
It is also worth reminding ourselves that local authority leaseholders have, since 1994, been able to take over management through tenant management organisations. I do not believe any work has been done regarding their success or otherwise. But such a review could ignite and inform this topic on another occasion. We welcome the probe by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, and also the subtleties of his alternative proposals, and will certainly attend the said—and very popular —meeting.
Finally, I come to Amendments 65A and 65B, in the name of Lord Bailey of Paddington. The aim of Amendment 65A is a good one: to ensure that leaseholders in mixed-use buildings can avail themselves of the right to manage. At the House of Commons Public Bill Committee in January, MPs heard that many leaseholders in mixed-use buildings would still be unable to benefit from the reforms in the Bill to take over management—because, as the noble Lord said, of the existence of, say, a shared plant room or car park, under rules regarding structural dependency and self-containment. The existence of a plant room or other infrastructure is something decided by the original developer and leaseholders have no control over these factors, so it feels unfair to exclude them from right to manage based on the way a block has been designed, especially if they qualify under the new 50% non-residential premises limit.
Amendment 65B would put rocket boosters under the right to manage, opening it up to far more leaseholders. We on these Benches support the amendment and the intent behind it. Members in the other place have raised concerns that the 50% trigger is too high. The 50% participation limit on right to manage was also flagged as an issue by leaseholder campaigners at the Commons Public Bill Committee in January.
There may be concerns about 50% being less than a majority, but, as the noble Lord said, many leaseholders will never be able to obtain 50% support because of the high levels of buy to let in their block. But ultimately the Committee was persuaded of the case to bring down the 50% threshold. It is not right that just one person—the freeholder or landlord—has such control over leaseholders and can impact almost at will on their finances. As the noble Lord’s amendment suggests, 35% of leaseholders triggering a right to manage, with a right to participate for remaining leaseholders who did not originally get involved, is a far better situation than rule by one freeholder, whose interests, as the Law Commission concluded, are diametrically opposed to that of the leaseholder. Leaseholder self-rule with right to manage and a 35% participation threshold is a much more democratic state of affairs. Let us be honest: many councillors and MPs are elected to govern on much less than 50% of the vote—in fact, usually around 35%.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage, for Amendment 60, which would leave new Section 87B out of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002. This is a new power, inserted into the 2002 Act by the Bill, for the tribunal to order the repayment of a landlord’s process costs for right to manage claims which are withdrawn or cease to have effect in circumstances where a right to manage company has acted unreasonably.
The noble Baroness asked who would decide what was reasonable or unreasonable and the level of reasonableness. The costs will be determined by the tribunal, as is the case with other kinds of litigation or court proceedings.
While we strive to reduce costs for leaseholders, we do not believe it is right to do so where the right to manage company acts unreasonably in bringing a claim and the claim also fails. For example, landlords should not have to meet their own wasted process costs where leaseholders clearly make an unfeasible claim or fail to bring the claim to an end at an earlier stage.
The noble Baroness should be assured that the new power for the tribunal does not automatically entitle landlords to repayment. If the tribunal does not consider that costs should be payable, it can decline to make an order. Removing new Section 87B would expose landlords to unfair costs. For these reasons, I ask the noble Baroness kindly to withdraw her amendment.
I thank my noble friend Lord Moylan for his Amendments 61 and 62. The amendments seek to remove or amend the existing exception to the right to manage for local authority premises so that the right can be used by their long lease holders. I should explain that there is a separate right to manage scheme for local authority secure tenants and leaseholders under the Housing Act 1985 and its relevant regulations. The Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002 therefore excepted local authority leaseholders from the long-leasehold right to manage to avoid creating conflicting schemes.
The Bill delivers the most impactful of the Law Commission’s recommendations on the right to manage, including increasing the non-residential limit to 50% to give more leaseholders the right to take over management, and changing the rules to make each party pay their own process and litigation costs, saving leaseholders many thousands of pounds.
An alternative route to management is available in some local authority blocks that contain a mixture of tenants and leaseholders, where a prescribed number and proportion of secure tenants are in support of exercising the right. This involves setting up a tenant management organisation. It would complicate a system that we are trying to simplify if two separate routes were to apply to a single block, and the Law Commission made no recommendations on local authority leaseholders.
Lord Moylan (Con)
My Lords, I have some familiarity with the Housing Act 1985 from my time in local government. I am reasonably well aware of the obligation to create tenant management organisations, which are often not block-specific but estate-wide or, in many cases, spread across the entire local authority council housing stock. It seems a strange way to go about trying to exercise the right to manage if we are discussing a block held as an investment that has no local authority tenants. Can my noble friend assure me that the Housing Act 1985 is an effective means for leaseholders in the circumstances I describe to exercise their right to manage, when in fact it is an obligation on a local authority rather than a right granted to long lease holders?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
We believe this is the correct way of doing it. I would be very happy to meet my noble friend to discuss this further but, with the evidence we have, we agree this is the correct way forward. But I really am very happy to meet with the noble Lord.
Lord Bailey of Paddington (Con)
I have heard what my noble friend the Minister has had to say and I am minded to do as she asks—if I could get one of those meetings that she has to offer. I am sure then that we could come to an accommodation.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
I will be very happy to spend a week in here so that noble Lords can come in and out and speak to me as they like—and I would love to meet my noble friend to talk about this further. He talked also about transparency and it not being terribly necessary. The problem is that, if you do not have transparency, sometimes you do not know you are being ripped off, because you do not have the required information—so I think transparency is actually really important.
Lord Bailey of Paddington (Con)
My Lords, it was not that I do not like transparency. I agree with my noble friend that transparency is very useful so you know whether you are being ripped off. I was making an appeal for the ability to intervene in the process of being ripped off. I have been on the other end of this situation, where people have quite happily told us what they are overcharging us for, but we had no mechanism to interfere in that. That is what I was more concerned with.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
I thank my noble friend for that but, for the reasons I have put forward, I kindly ask him not to press his amendments.
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful, as ever, to the Minister for her responses. It seems she is going to be very busy over the next few weeks, having all these meetings with all of us. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, for reminding me that, had the right reverend Prelate been here, I too would have objected strongly to the proposals he was making on Clause 47, because they would simply have opened the door to retaining the 25% limit, virtually across the property sector. I believe that would have gone against the intentions of the Bill, so she was right in what she said there and I thank her for her support for my amendment.
From this side of the House, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Bailey, that we welcome belligerent interventions from either side, but especially from the Benches opposite, so just keep going with those. We particularly agree with his Amendment 65B. If his meeting does not achieve the desired effect and he chooses to pursue this, he will certainly have our support.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, very much for his explanation. I had not realised that these were either/or amendments, but I understand his point about property owned as an investment by a local authority or pension fund. I agree with his point about the principle of right to manage being extended as far as possible. That is absolutely right, although anything affecting local authorities needs to have some consultation with the sector, because we just do not know what any unintended consequence of that might mean. I hope he will consider that if he chooses to pursue this amendment, but perhaps the meeting with the Minister might allay his concerns in that regard. That said, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Baroness Pinnock
“Report: restrictions around ground rent investments(1) Within six months of the day on which this Act is passed the Secretary of State must lay before Parliament a report outlining the impact of this Act on ground rent investments.(2) The report in subsection (1) must also make an assessment of the impact of—(a) prohibiting future ground rent investments, and(b) encouraging divestment from existing ground rent investmentson leaseholders and freeholders.(3) In this section “ground rent investment” means investment by a pension fund or other type of fund in leaseholds for the purpose of collecting ground rent.”Member’s explanatory statement
This is a probing amendment that would require the Government report on the impact of this Act on ground rent investments, and the impact of prohibiting future ground rent investments and encouraging divestment from existing ground rent investments on leaseholders and freeholders.
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
My Lords, Amendment 63 in my name was tabled to probe the impact of the proposals in the Bill on ground rent investments, and the effect of prohibiting future ground rent investments, and encouraging divestment from existing ground rent investments, on leaseholders and freeholders. The Government’s intentions appeared to be clear. In 2022, the Leasehold Reform (Ground Rent) Act effectively set the ground rent on new leases at zero, so the direction of travel seemed set. Further, last November, the Government launched a consultation on ground rents, which included capping the charge at a peppercorn rate for existing leaseholders.
The Secretary of State said at the time that the aim was to help protect those leaseholders who
“can be faced with ground rent clauses in their leases which result in spiralling payments with no benefit in return”.
Now, apparently, the Government have backed off from a fundamental reform and seem set on phasing out ground rents over a period of 20 years and setting a cap on ground rents at £250 per annum.
The fundamental question we have to ask is: what benefit do leaseholders accrue from paying a ground rent of, for example, £250 a year? The answer, is, of course, that ground rents really are a something-for-nothing payment—I bet you would not get away with this in Yorkshire. If the Government are determined, as they initially said they were, to bring fairness to leaseholders, then ground rents would be consigned to history.
However, on the other hand, ground rents provide a steady income for institutions as well as individual freeholders. It seems that the pressure on the Government to row back from abolition or peppercorn was sufficient to cause considerable backpedalling.
The Society of Pension Professionals—which the noble Lord, Lord Truscott, referred to six hours ago—has examined this issue as a result of much being made about the potential impact on pension funds of reducing ground rents to either £250 or zero. The following is a statement from the Society of Pension Professionals:
“Freeholders are already prevented from charging ground rents on new long leases (of more than 21 years), so it’s perhaps understandable that the government wants something similar for existing long leaseholders. The government estimates that capping ground rents at £250 a year would decrease the value of affected property assets by £14.6 bn or £27.3 bn if rents are reduced to a peppercorn. If these proposals become law, there may be some short-term impact on pension fund investors through asset values being written down. Certain pension funds may also be impacted where they own freehold titles directly, although that will be less common. The effect of these proposed adjustments is likely to be more significant for such investors than the loss of annual ground rent income over the term of the lease”—
I emphasise this next part—
“but the scale relative to total assets is probably not that significant for most in the long-run”
That is an authoritative statement, and I would like to hear a full response from the Minister—probably in writing given the late stage of the evening—as this reform is a critical part of leasehold reform. Before Report, we need to see the detailed proposals from the Government and a full explanation of their reasons.
In conclusion, these Benches want the iniquitous system of ground rents to be abolished or at least reduced by introducing a peppercorn as the set fee. I beg to move.
Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)
My Lords, at this late stage of the evening, I will be brief in speaking to Amendment 65 in the name of my noble friend Lady Taylor of Stevenage. The amendment would require the Government to publish their response to their consultation on a cap on ground rents and set out its implementation within a month of the Bill passing. It is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock. She described ground rent as something for nothing and something that you would not get away with in Yorkshire. Let me assure her that the noble Lord opposite can confirm that you would not get away with it in Lancashire either.
In the past five or six days we have seen a lot of press in relation to the new £250 yearly ground rent cap for 20 years. However, we still have not had confirmation here at this stage of the Bill from the Government. I want to press the Minister on the comments of the Secretary of State, who said in November that the
“consultation was launched to help protect those leaseholders who can be faced with ground rent clauses in their leases, which result in spiralling payments with no benefit in return”.
How are those press announcements happening, when we have not had a consultation analysis and we have not had feedback on the findings of the consultation? We find out in the media what the Government are thinking, and that is not right; we challenge that operation and procedure as a way of working, whereby we find in the media numerous reports about the Government’s intentions.
Lord Truscott (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I support Amendments 63 and 65 in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Taylor of Stevenage and Lady Pinnock, who outlined again the position on pension funds. I wanted to support what has been said by the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, and the noble Lord, Lord Khan of Burnley. There has been a lot of scaremongering recently about the impact on pension funds, and I wanted to reinforce that with the Minister. Quite frankly, all this talk of pension funds and pensioners being hammered by low or peppercorn ground rents is rubbish, and it should be called out for what it is.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My Lords, I shall take Amendments 63 and 65 together, if noble Lords do not mind, as they both concern ground rents. Amendment 63 would require a report to be laid before Parliament, and Amendment 65 would require the publication of the Government’s response to the recent ground rent consultation and the laying of a Statement before Parliament. Before I move into what I am going to say, I want to say that I am not making any comment on any media speculation, as I said on Monday.
These amendments relate to the issues considered in the Government’s recent consultation entitled Modern Leasehold: Restricting Ground Rent for Existing Leases, which was published on 9 November 2023 and closed on 17 January this year. It sought views on limiting the level of ground rent that residential leaseholders can be required to pay in England and Wales. Noble Lords will be aware that the Government do not believe that it is appropriate that many leaseholders face unregulated ground rents for no clear service in return. There is no requirement for ground rents to be reasonable, and they can cause problems when people want to sell, buy or mortgage their properties.
The Government have already legislated to put an end to ground rents for most new residential properties in England and Wales through the Leasehold Reform (Ground Rent) Act 2022. We have also encouraged work, led by the Competition and Markets Authority, to investigate abuses of the system such as mis-sold “doubling” ground rent leases, securing commitments from freeholders to remove these costly terms, benefitting more than 20,000 leaseholders.
It is not right that many existing leaseholders are still facing these charges for no discernible service in return, which is why we have just consulted on a range of options to cap ground rents for existing residential leases. The Government are currently considering the responses to the consultation and we will set out our policy in due course. I hope noble Lords will understand that it would be inappropriate for me at this point to comment on or pre-empt any decision of the Government before a formal response to the consultation has been published, and that, given where we are, it would be premature to impose the requirements proposed in these two amendments.
The noble Lord, Lord Truscott, is right: we do not think it is appropriate that many leaseholders face these unregulated ground rents for no clear service in return. We recognise that our proposals would have some impact on the freehold market and explored this impact through our consultation. This impact is obviously being factored into the considerations of the options and is being taken into account in reaching our final policy position. The noble Lord has some very clear views on this, which I think we agree with.
At this late hour, I therefore ask the noble Baronesses, Lady Pinnock and Lady Taylor, for their continued patience as we consider what is a very complex issue. I trust that, in the light of the assurances I have given, they will be content not to press their amendments.
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
I am sure the Minister understands that this has dragged on and on, and we are now at a very late stage of a Bill that has already gone all the way through the Commons. Quite frankly, the degree of uncertainty and instability that is being caused to leaseholders—and to freeholders, to be fair to them—is unacceptable. Yet again in this Chamber, we hear the phrase, “in due course”. I do not know what that means; it can mean anything from tomorrow to in three years’ time when we get round to sorting it out. That is not acceptable either.
We had a very detailed report from the Competition and Markets Authority, which roundly condemned the use of ground rents as a mechanism. We have heard in this Chamber over and again that this is money for nothing and that it has resulted in the most dreadful exploitation. The example I gave in Committee on Monday of an elderly couple virtually being held to ransom by the freeholder is absolutely shocking. That will be going on in millions of homes across the country. This is just not acceptable any longer. I hope that the Secretary of State will very rapidly make up his mind as to what he is going to do about this, stop being bulldozed by freeholder interests in his own party, make a decision and get rid of ground rents, once and for all. This would let people sleep easy in their beds, which they have not been able to do while this debate has been going on.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
I think there was a question there, and my response is that we went out, quite rightly, to consult, and the consultation did not finish until towards the end of January. This is a complex issue. If we do it badly or wrong then we will make mistakes and these people will potentially be in a more difficult situation. From the end of January to April is not a long time. We are doing it as fast as we can, and we will come back to the House with further details.
Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)
I understand the response the Minister has given, but she has to understand that this consultation has its own process and in due course we will look at the analysis. I do not know whether I am accidentally calling for another meeting here, but how did we end up with reports in the newspapers? That causes more uncertainty and instability for people in their homes who are getting their information from the media. Surely there needs to be a statement or some clarification through the next stages of the Bill, so that, very early on, we can look at getting a clear, certain message out to the millions of leaseholders who have been adversely affected by the ground rent situation.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
The Government have no control over what goes into the media, and it is something that the Government have to accept.
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
Let us end on a positive. I thank the Minister for her response. There is agreement that unregulated ground rents are unacceptable, and that some freeholders are unscrupulous and exploit their leaseholders, holding them to ransom, as the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage, said.
However, it would be really helpful if, as we complete the various stages of the Bill, the Minister could confirm that the Government will be able to bring forward a detailed amendment regarding ground rents before Report; otherwise, those of us who raised this issue in Committee will raise it again on Report. Unfortunately, this will put the Minister in a difficult position, one in which she has to say, “In due course, something is going to turn up”. Let us send a message to the department that “in due course” means “before Report”.