Leasehold and Freehold Reform Bill

Baroness Scott of Bybrook Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 24th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Baroness Scott of Bybrook) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, for her amendments in this group, which seek to remove forfeiture from the leasehold and freehold estate.

Amendment 55 seeks to address one of the ways in which leasehold law is tilted in favour of landlords. I know that noble Lords from all sides of the House are sympathetic to this intention, as are Members from the other place, where this same clause has already been debated.

Forfeiture is widely recognised as a draconian and unfair measure which is open to abuse. The main objection to the current law is that, should the landlord forfeit the lease and go on to sell the property, this allows them to make a large windfall gain at the expense of the leaseholder, who loses everything. Abolishing forfeiture would reduce the risk to the leaseholder of losing their home and would prevent abuses.

Abolishing forfeiture without replacing it with an alternative enforcement mechanism would mean that landlords would have recourse only to ordinary civil debt recovery and injunction proceedings, which, as we have heard, can be lengthy and are not always effective. In the absence of forfeiture or an alternative, there is a danger that a greater number of leaseholders may refuse to pay their fair share of the cost of maintaining their block or estate, and we have to take this all into account.

Noble Lords asked how many cases there are. We do not have the exact number, but stakeholders give us estimates of between 90 and 120 cases per year. It is not a big issue, but it is a very important one for those people.

[Lord Bailey of Paddington (Con)]

The number of cases will not indicate the use of forfeiture, because forfeiture is wielded as a fiery dragon. Leaseholders speak about it as the dog that bites. The number of cases may be small, but I would argue that the use of forfeiture is probably far greater.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I have said that it is not the right way of doing it, and we want a different way. That is exactly what the Government are looking at.

We have to be clear that the upkeep and safety of buildings is also paramount. Landlords, be they third parties or resident management companies, need effective mechanisms for securing prompt payment to ensure that those properties are insured and maintained in the interests of everybody else in the block.

We recognise that there is the potential for significant inequity at hand where a landlord stands to gain a windfall when a lease is forfeited. However, I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, and the Committee that the Government have been listening to calls for us to act. The Government continue to work through the detail and we will report to the House shortly with more information. In the meantime, I welcome members of the Committee sharing their views on this matter, which the Government will reflect on when formulating their position.

In addition, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, for Amendment 95, which seeks to abolish Section 121 of the Law of Property Act 1925 in respect of all rent charges. Let me be clear: the Government are sympathetic to the issue raised by the noble Baroness. We recognise that forfeiture is an extreme measure and should be used only as a last resort. Any changes will require careful consideration of the rights and responsibilities of all interested parties.

Clause 111 already seeks to abolish forfeiture for income-supporting rent charges, which are still in existence, even though the creation of new charges of this nature has been banned since 1977. However, some types of rent charges may still be created, including estate rent charges, which are used for the provision of services on managed estates.

Where they are created, estate management companies need a means to recover sums owed to them. Failure to do so means that costs may fall on other home owners, or the upkeep of an estate will worsen, to the detriment of everyone living on that estate. The problem may be particularly acute for resident-led management companies which do not have alternative sources of funding.

It is important that we fully understand any unintended consequences. This is an issue that we are carefully considering. I hope that, with those assurances, the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, before the Minister sits down, most of what she said was very welcome. The acceptance that forfeiture is draconian, unfair and open to abuse—we agree with that. It is not the right way to do things, as the Minister said.

Specifically on inequality, we all agree with that, and it was good to hear the Government say that. A bit more disappointing was that I did not hear the Minister say, “I want to meet colleagues”; nor, “We hope to bring an amendment back on Report to address this”. All we got was, “We will formulate our position”.

There is agreement around the Chamber that what we need to see is an amendment that addresses all these issues. We would like a commitment to get us all together, and to hear from the Minister that she hopes there will be an amendment on Report. If we do not do that, there have been lots of warm words here but not much else has been achieved.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

My Lords, I thought the Committee was probably fed up with me saying that I am always very happy to meet any group of noble Lords, on any subject, at any time. I apologise for not saying it in this group, and I will never ever forget to say it in any group in the future. Also, I said that we will report back to the House shortly with more details. I think the noble Lord needs to look at those words—they are quite positive.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

I am not saying they are not positive. At the end of the day, to make progress we need a government amendment, or an amendment that somebody else tables that the Government will support, at the next stage. That is progress; that is what I am trying to push. I know the Minister is very generous with her time, and wants to get this right, and wants to meet colleagues. I am just trying to get it on the record, that is all. I know the Minister has been good every time that colleagues have raised this issue in the House, and I have a Question on it again on, I think, 22 May. I thank her very much.

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Moved by

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook]

56: Before Schedule 9, insert the following new Schedule—
“Schedule Part 2: consequential amendments to other legislationParliamentary Commissioner Act 1967
1 In Schedule 4 to the Parliamentary Commissioner Act 1967 (relevant tribunals), in the entry relating to rent assessment committees, omit “and also known as leasehold valuation tribunals for the purpose of determinations pursuant to section 21(1), (2) and (3) of the Leasehold Reform Act 1967”.Leasehold Reform Act 1979
2 In section 1 of the Leasehold Reform Act 1979 (price of enfranchisement under the LRA 1967 not to be made less favourable by reference to superior interest), in subsection (1), after “the price payable on a conveyance for giving effect to that section” insert “, in a case where the price payable is determined under section 9(1) of that Act by virtue of section 7A of that Act,”.Local Government Act 1985
3 In Schedule 13 to the Local Government Act 1985 (residuary bodies)—(a) in paragraph 14(aa), at the end insert “, where it applies by virtue of section 7A or 32(5) of that Act”;(b) omit paragraph 17.Housing Act 1985
4 In the Housing Act 1985—(a) in section 115 (meaning of “long tenancy”)—(i) for subsection (2)(c) substitute—“(c) at the time it is granted, it complies with the specified requirements.”;(ii) after subsection (2) insert—“(3) The “specified requirements” are—(a) in the case of a tenancy granted before 11 December 1987, the requirements of the Housing (Exclusion of Shared Ownership Tenancies from the Leasehold Reform Act 1967) Regulations 1982 (S.I. 1982/62) (including where the tenancy was granted before those regulations came into force);(b) in the case of a tenancy granted on or after 11 December 1987 and before the 2024 Act commencement day, the requirements in paragraph 2 of Schedule 2 to the Housing Association Shared Ownership Leases (Exclusion from Leasehold Reform Act 1967 and Rent Act 1977) Regulations 1987 (S.I. 1987/1940);(c) in the case of a tenancy granted on or after the 2024 Act commencement day, requirements specified in regulations made by the appropriate authority.(4) The “2024 Act commencement day” is the day on which paragraph 11 of Schedule 8 to the Leasehold and Freehold Reform Act 2024 comes into force.(5) “The appropriate authority” means—(a) in relation to England, the Secretary of State;(b) in relation to Wales, the Welsh Ministers.(6) Regulations under subsection (3)(c)—(a) are to be made by statutory instrument;(b) may make provision generally or only in relation to specific cases;(c) may make different provision for different purposes or different areas;(d) may include supplementary, incidental, transitional or saving provision.(7) A statutory instrument containing regulations under this section is subject to annulment in pursuance of—(a) where it contains regulations made by the Secretary of State, a resolution of either House of Parliament; (b) where it contains regulations made by the Welsh Ministers, a resolution of Senedd Cymru.”;(b) omit section 175 (determination of price payable on enfranchisement under LRA 1967 where tenancy created under right to buy).Landlord and Tenant Act 1985
5 In section 26 of the LTA 1985 (exception to service charge restrictions for public authority tenants)—(a) for subsection (3)(c) substitute—“(c) at the time it is granted it complies with the specified requirements.”;(b) after subsection (3) insert—“(4) The “specified requirements” are—(a) in the case of a tenancy granted before 11 December 1987, the requirements of the Housing (Exclusion of Shared Ownership Tenancies from the Leasehold Reform Act 1967) Regulations 1982 (S.I. 1982/62) (including where the tenancy was granted before those regulations came into force);(b) in the case of a tenancy granted on or after 11 December 1987 and before the 2024 Act commencement day, the requirements in paragraph 2 of Schedule 2 to the Housing Association Shared Ownership Leases (Exclusion from Leasehold Reform Act 1967 and Rent Act 1977) Regulations 1987 (S.I. 1987/1940);(c) in the case of a tenancy granted on or after the 2024 Act commencement day, requirements specified in regulations made by the appropriate authority.(5) The “2024 Act commencement day” is the day on which paragraph 11 of Schedule 8 to the Leasehold and Freehold Reform Act 2024 comes into force.(6) Regulations under subsection (4)(c)—(a) are to be made by statutory instrument;(b) may make provision generally or only in relation to specific cases;(c) may make different provision for different purposes or different areas;(d) may include supplementary, incidental, transitional or saving provision.(7) A statutory instrument containing regulations under this section is subject to the negative procedure.”Housing and Planning Act 1986
6 In Schedule 4 to the Housing and Planning Act 1986 (shared ownership leases), in paragraph 11 (transitional provisions and savings)—(a) in sub-paragraph (1), at the end insert “, subject to sub-paragraphs (1A) and (2)”;(b) for sub-paragraph (2) substitute—“(1A) The amendment made by paragraph 7 (repeal of section 140 of the Housing Act 1980) also applies in relation to leases granted before the commencement of this Schedule, except in cases where, under section 7A or 32(5) of the Leasehold Reform Act 1967, the Leasehold Reform Act 1967 has effect without the amendments made by the Leasehold and Freehold Reform Act 2024.(2) In those cases, this Schedule does not affect the operation of section 140 of the Housing Act 1980, the enactments applying that section or regulations made under it.”Housing Act 1988
7 In Schedule 17 to the Housing Act 1988 (minor and consequential amendments)—(a) omit paragraph 40;(b) omit paragraph 68. Local Government and Housing Act 1989
8 In paragraph 5 of Schedule 10 to the Local Government and Housing Act 1989 (security of tenure for long residential leases)—(a) in sub-paragraph (4), for the words from “unless” to the end substitute “unless—(a) the landlord is a relevant authority, and(b) the premises are required for relevant development.”;(b) after sub-paragraph (4) insert—“(4A) For those purposes—(a) “relevant authority” means a person referred to in any paragraph of section 38(2) of the Leasehold Reform Act 1967;(b) “relevant development”—(i) in relation to a relevant authority other than a health authority, means development for the purposes (other than investment purposes) of that body;(ii) in relation to a relevant authority that is a health authority, means development for the purposes of the National Health Service Act 2006 or the National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006;(iii) in relation to a relevant authority that is a university body, also includes development for the purposes of any related university body;(iv) in relation to a relevant authority that is a local authority, also includes area development;(c) “health authority” means—(i) NHS England;(ii) any integrated care board;(iii) any Local Health Board;(iv) any Special Health Authority;(v) any National Health Service trust;(vi) any NHS foundation trust;(vii) any clinical commissioning group;(viii) any Strategic Health Authority;(ix) any Primary Care Trust;(d) “university body” and “related university body” have the same meaning as in section 29(6ZA) of the Leasehold Reform Act 1967;(e) “local authority” has the same meaning as in section 29(5) of the Leasehold Reform Act 1967;(f) “area development” means any development to be undertaken, whether or not by a local authority, in order to secure—(i) the development or redevelopment of an area defined by a development plan under the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004 as an area of comprehensive development;(ii) the treatment as a whole, by development, redevelopment or improvement, or partly by one and partly by another method, of any area in which the premises are situated.”Local Government (Wales) Act 1994
9 In Schedule 13 to the Local Government (Wales) Act 1994, in paragraph 24—(a) omit paragraph (b);(b) in paragraph (c), at the end insert “, where it applies by virtue of section 7A or 32(5) of that Act”.Housing Act 1996
10 In the Housing Act 1996—(a) omit section 109 (collective enfranchisement: valuation);(b) omit section 110 (lease extension for flats: valuation);(c) in Schedule 10 (consequential amendments)— (i) in paragraph 6, omit sub-paragraph (4); (ii) omit paragraph 18;(d) in Schedule 11 (compensation for postponement of termination in connection with ineffective claims)—(i) in paragraph 2, omit sub-paragraph (2);(ii) in paragraph 3, omit sub-paragraph (2).Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002
11 In the CLRA 2002—(a) omit section 126 (collective enfranchisement: valuation date);(b) omit section 127 (collective enfranchisement: freeholder’s share of marriage value);(c) omit section 128 (collective enfranchisement: disregard of marriage value for very long leases);(d) in section 130 (lease extension for flats: residence test), omit subsection (2);(e) omit section 132 (lease extension for flats: personal representatives);(f) omit section 134 (lease extension for flats: valuation date);(g) omit section 135 (lease extension for flats: freeholder’s share of marriage value);(h) omit section 136 (lease extension for flats: disregard of marriage value for very long leases);(i) in Schedule 13 (leasehold valuation tribunals), omit paragraph 15.Finance Act 2003
12 In the Finance Act 2003—(a) in Schedule 4 (stamp duty land tax: chargeable consideration), for paragraph 16C substitute—“16C The following do not count as chargeable consideration—(a) costs borne by the purchaser under section 9(4) of the Leasehold Reform Act 1967, where it applies by virtue of section 7A of that Act;(b) any amount payable by the purchaser under section 19C of the Leasehold Reform Act 1967;(c) any amount payable by the purchaser under section 89C or 89D of the Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act 1993.”(b) in Schedule 17A (leases: further provision), in paragraph 10 (tenants’ obligations etc that do not count as chargeable consideration), for sub-paragraph (1)(f) substitute—“(f) any liability of the tenant for costs under section 14(2) of the Leasehold Reform Act 1967, where it applies by virtue of section 32(5) of that Act;(fa) any amount payable by the tenant under section 19C of the Leasehold Reform Act 1967 or section 89F of the Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act 1993;”Companies Act 2006
13 In section 1181 of the Companies Act 2006 (access to constitutional documents of RTE and RTM companies)—(a) in the heading, omit “RTE and”;(b) in subsection (1), omit paragraph (a);(c) in subsection (4), omit the definition of “RTE companies”.Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013
14 In section 84 of the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013 (redress schemes: property management work), in subsection (10), omit the words from “or which” to the end. Immigration Act 2014
15 In Schedule 3 to the Immigration Act 2014 (excluded residential tenancy agreements), in paragraph 13(2)(a), omit the words from “or which” to the end.Consumer Rights Act 2015
16 In section 88 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (duty of letting agents to publicise fees: supplementary provisions), in subsection (1), in the definition of “long lease”, omit paragraph (a)(ii) and the “or” preceding it.Housing and Planning Act 2016
17 In Schedule 10 to the Housing and Planning Act 2016 (leasehold enfranchisement and extension: calculations)—(a) omit paragraph 4;(b) omit paragraph 5.Tenant Fees Act 2019
18 In section 28 of the Tenant Fees Act 2019 (interpretation), in subsection (1), in the definition of “long lease”, omit paragraph (b) and the “or” preceding it.Building Safety Act 2022
19 In Schedule 8 to the BSA 2022 (remediation costs), in paragraph 6 (permitted maximum)—(a) in sub-paragraph (5), omit “total” in each place it occurs;(b) in sub-paragraph (8)—(i) for “total” substitute “tenant’s”;(ii) for “section 7” substitute “section 101(1)”.”Member's explanatory statement
This new Schedule would make amendments to other legislation in consequence of Part 2.

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[Baroness Thornhill (LD)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 57 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage. As has been said, Schedule 9 confers on a qualifying tenant the right to buy out the ground rent and replace it with a peppercorn rent. Instead of the extended leases that are paid for each time, it is a decision to make a one-off payment—job done once and for all.

This is a welcome measure. However, as has been said, under paragraph 2 of Schedule 9, the tenant must have at least 150 years left on their lease to qualify. Amendment 57 from the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage, would ensure that all leaseholders, not just those with residential leases of 150 years or over, have the right to vary their lease in this way and replace it with a peppercorn rent.

The provisions on the variation of leases and removal of ground rent are complex, but they are based on the principle of granting leaseholders flexibility and a recognition that different solutions might be preferable for the different situations that they are in. The argument has been put forward that these provisions should apply to leases that are sufficiently long, with the Law Commission recommending a very long length of 250 years and the Government settling on 150. Therefore, Amendment 57 rightly probes that length. If not 250 years, why not 125 years, 90 years or indeed no threshold for length at all?

Data on this was hard to find, but DLUHC’s English Housing Survey of owner-occupier leaseholders for the year 2020-21 found that 45% of leaseholders had a leasehold term between 71 and 120 years, and that the median length of leases was 112 years. This suggests that there could be lots of leaseholders with reasonably long leases who would not be given these rights in relation to ground rent.

I would also like colleagues to note that mortgage lenders are now getting very active on ground rent terms and taking an ever more conservative view on ground rent clauses. They are refusing to lend on leasehold homes where the ground rent is seen as onerous—the definition of that might be that it continues to double or that there are other strictures in place. This means that some leaseholders will be left with flats that are difficult to sell, as well as an escalating ground rent.

We would therefore welcome further information from the Minister about whether these provisions could be extended to cover more leaseholders, especially given their own figures.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to government Amendments 58 and 59 in my name. Government Amendment 59 changes “premium” to “price”, referring to the sum paid for a ground rent buyout, to make the language consistent with the rest of the Bill. Government Amendment 58 makes a minor wording change to clarify that it is “the appropriate tribunal” that may make an order to appoint a person to vary a lease on behalf of the landlord or tenant in the case of a commutation following a ground rent buyout. I hope noble Lords will therefore support these amendments.

I turn to Amendment 57 from the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, and moved by the noble Lord, Lord Khan of Burnley. This seeks to remove the threshold for the ground rent buyout right. I appreciate the concerns that lie behind this amendment and understand that the noble Baroness is seeking to ensure that as many leaseholders as possible can benefit from the new right. First, it is very important to note that all leaseholders, regardless of their term remaining, have the means to buy out their ground rent. They do so whenever they extend their lease or buy their freehold. It is only the right to buy out the ground rent without extending the lease or buying the freehold that is limited to leaseholders with 150 years or more remaining. The 150-year threshold exists to protect those leaseholders with shorter leases who will, at some point, require an extension from being financially disadvantaged by first buying out their rent, only having to extend later and paying more in total for doing so. However, we understand the argument that all leaseholders should be able to buy out their rent without extending their lease or buying their freehold if they want to, and we are listening carefully to that argument.

The Law Commission recommended 250 years, but it noted that the department might want to set the threshold lower. The department’s analysis showed that 150 years would enable more leaseholders to take advantage of the ground rent buyout right, while still being a long enough term remaining that the leaseholder does not need to extend if they do not want to. A lower minimum term would create a risk that poorly advised leaseholders might buy out the ground rent when an extension is in their best interest, then find out that they need to extend later and have to pay a higher premium, except for the extension, and two sets of transaction costs. We believe this is helping the leaseholder.

I hope that the noble Baroness will appreciate the reasons we have given for the existence of the threshold, and those assurances, and withdraw her amendment.

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise very briefly to thank the Minister for her response. I appreciate the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill. In the future, we will look to work with colleagues across the House to see where we are on this. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

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Moved by

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook]

58: Schedule 9, page 212, line 22, at beginning insert “the appropriate tribunal may”
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment would correct an error.

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[Baroness Thornhill (LD)]

My comments were not about right to manage. That was a good segue into another short speech by the noble Lord.

However, we are conscious that expanding right to manage to leaseholders under local authority landlords was never considered by the Law Commission, nor put out to public consultation. We are unsure whether the Government have done policy work in this area. It is a whole other ball game and will be challenging. But, in principle, given that many local authorities have been guilty of significant and tragic failures of service, to put it mildly, this should be a right of local authority tenants too. But it will be complex, for many of the reasons that were well outlined by the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor.

It is also worth reminding ourselves that local authority leaseholders have, since 1994, been able to take over management through tenant management organisations. I do not believe any work has been done regarding their success or otherwise. But such a review could ignite and inform this topic on another occasion. We welcome the probe by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, and also the subtleties of his alternative proposals, and will certainly attend the said—and very popular —meeting.

Finally, I come to Amendments 65A and 65B, in the name of Lord Bailey of Paddington. The aim of Amendment 65A is a good one: to ensure that leaseholders in mixed-use buildings can avail themselves of the right to manage. At the House of Commons Public Bill Committee in January, MPs heard that many leaseholders in mixed-use buildings would still be unable to benefit from the reforms in the Bill to take over management—because, as the noble Lord said, of the existence of, say, a shared plant room or car park, under rules regarding structural dependency and self-containment. The existence of a plant room or other infrastructure is something decided by the original developer and leaseholders have no control over these factors, so it feels unfair to exclude them from right to manage based on the way a block has been designed, especially if they qualify under the new 50% non-residential premises limit.

Amendment 65B would put rocket boosters under the right to manage, opening it up to far more leaseholders. We on these Benches support the amendment and the intent behind it. Members in the other place have raised concerns that the 50% trigger is too high. The 50% participation limit on right to manage was also flagged as an issue by leaseholder campaigners at the Commons Public Bill Committee in January.

There may be concerns about 50% being less than a majority, but, as the noble Lord said, many leaseholders will never be able to obtain 50% support because of the high levels of buy to let in their block. But ultimately the Committee was persuaded of the case to bring down the 50% threshold. It is not right that just one person—the freeholder or landlord—has such control over leaseholders and can impact almost at will on their finances. As the noble Lord’s amendment suggests, 35% of leaseholders triggering a right to manage, with a right to participate for remaining leaseholders who did not originally get involved, is a far better situation than rule by one freeholder, whose interests, as the Law Commission concluded, are diametrically opposed to that of the leaseholder. Leaseholder self-rule with right to manage and a 35% participation threshold is a much more democratic state of affairs. Let us be honest: many councillors and MPs are elected to govern on much less than 50% of the vote—in fact, usually around 35%.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage, for Amendment 60, which would leave new Section 87B out of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002. This is a new power, inserted into the 2002 Act by the Bill, for the tribunal to order the repayment of a landlord’s process costs for right to manage claims which are withdrawn or cease to have effect in circumstances where a right to manage company has acted unreasonably.

The noble Baroness asked who would decide what was reasonable or unreasonable and the level of reasonableness. The costs will be determined by the tribunal, as is the case with other kinds of litigation or court proceedings.

While we strive to reduce costs for leaseholders, we do not believe it is right to do so where the right to manage company acts unreasonably in bringing a claim and the claim also fails. For example, landlords should not have to meet their own wasted process costs where leaseholders clearly make an unfeasible claim or fail to bring the claim to an end at an earlier stage.

The noble Baroness should be assured that the new power for the tribunal does not automatically entitle landlords to repayment. If the tribunal does not consider that costs should be payable, it can decline to make an order. Removing new Section 87B would expose landlords to unfair costs. For these reasons, I ask the noble Baroness kindly to withdraw her amendment.

I thank my noble friend Lord Moylan for his Amendments 61 and 62. The amendments seek to remove or amend the existing exception to the right to manage for local authority premises so that the right can be used by their long lease holders. I should explain that there is a separate right to manage scheme for local authority secure tenants and leaseholders under the Housing Act 1985 and its relevant regulations. The Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002 therefore excepted local authority leaseholders from the long-leasehold right to manage to avoid creating conflicting schemes.

The Bill delivers the most impactful of the Law Commission’s recommendations on the right to manage, including increasing the non-residential limit to 50% to give more leaseholders the right to take over management, and changing the rules to make each party pay their own process and litigation costs, saving leaseholders many thousands of pounds.

An alternative route to management is available in some local authority blocks that contain a mixture of tenants and leaseholders, where a prescribed number and proportion of secure tenants are in support of exercising the right. This involves setting up a tenant management organisation. It would complicate a system that we are trying to simplify if two separate routes were to apply to a single block, and the Law Commission made no recommendations on local authority leaseholders.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I have some familiarity with the Housing Act 1985 from my time in local government. I am reasonably well aware of the obligation to create tenant management organisations, which are often not block-specific but estate-wide or, in many cases, spread across the entire local authority council housing stock. It seems a strange way to go about trying to exercise the right to manage if we are discussing a block held as an investment that has no local authority tenants. Can my noble friend assure me that the Housing Act 1985 is an effective means for leaseholders in the circumstances I describe to exercise their right to manage, when in fact it is an obligation on a local authority rather than a right granted to long lease holders?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

We believe this is the correct way of doing it. I would be very happy to meet my noble friend to discuss this further but, with the evidence we have, we agree this is the correct way forward. But I really am very happy to meet with the noble Lord.

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[Lord Bailey of Paddington (Con)]

I have heard what my noble friend the Minister has had to say and I am minded to do as she asks—if I could get one of those meetings that she has to offer. I am sure then that we could come to an accommodation.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I will be very happy to spend a week in here so that noble Lords can come in and out and speak to me as they like—and I would love to meet my noble friend to talk about this further. He talked also about transparency and it not being terribly necessary. The problem is that, if you do not have transparency, sometimes you do not know you are being ripped off, because you do not have the required information—so I think transparency is actually really important.

[Lord Bailey of Paddington (Con)]

My Lords, it was not that I do not like transparency. I agree with my noble friend that transparency is very useful so you know whether you are being ripped off. I was making an appeal for the ability to intervene in the process of being ripped off. I have been on the other end of this situation, where people have quite happily told us what they are overcharging us for, but we had no mechanism to interfere in that. That is what I was more concerned with.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that but, for the reasons I have put forward, I kindly ask him not to press his amendments.

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[Lord Truscott (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I support Amendments 63 and 65 in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Taylor of Stevenage and Lady Pinnock, who outlined again the position on pension funds. I wanted to support what has been said by the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, and the noble Lord, Lord Khan of Burnley. There has been a lot of scaremongering recently about the impact on pension funds, and I wanted to reinforce that with the Minister. Quite frankly, all this talk of pension funds and pensioners being hammered by low or peppercorn ground rents is rubbish, and it should be called out for what it is.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

My Lords, I shall take Amendments 63 and 65 together, if noble Lords do not mind, as they both concern ground rents. Amendment 63 would require a report to be laid before Parliament, and Amendment 65 would require the publication of the Government’s response to the recent ground rent consultation and the laying of a Statement before Parliament. Before I move into what I am going to say, I want to say that I am not making any comment on any media speculation, as I said on Monday.

These amendments relate to the issues considered in the Government’s recent consultation entitled Modern Leasehold: Restricting Ground Rent for Existing Leases, which was published on 9 November 2023 and closed on 17 January this year. It sought views on limiting the level of ground rent that residential leaseholders can be required to pay in England and Wales. Noble Lords will be aware that the Government do not believe that it is appropriate that many leaseholders face unregulated ground rents for no clear service in return. There is no requirement for ground rents to be reasonable, and they can cause problems when people want to sell, buy or mortgage their properties.

The Government have already legislated to put an end to ground rents for most new residential properties in England and Wales through the Leasehold Reform (Ground Rent) Act 2022. We have also encouraged work, led by the Competition and Markets Authority, to investigate abuses of the system such as mis-sold “doubling” ground rent leases, securing commitments from freeholders to remove these costly terms, benefitting more than 20,000 leaseholders.

It is not right that many existing leaseholders are still facing these charges for no discernible service in return, which is why we have just consulted on a range of options to cap ground rents for existing residential leases. The Government are currently considering the responses to the consultation and we will set out our policy in due course. I hope noble Lords will understand that it would be inappropriate for me at this point to comment on or pre-empt any decision of the Government before a formal response to the consultation has been published, and that, given where we are, it would be premature to impose the requirements proposed in these two amendments.

The noble Lord, Lord Truscott, is right: we do not think it is appropriate that many leaseholders face these unregulated ground rents for no clear service in return. We recognise that our proposals would have some impact on the freehold market and explored this impact through our consultation. This impact is obviously being factored into the considerations of the options and is being taken into account in reaching our final policy position. The noble Lord has some very clear views on this, which I think we agree with.

At this late hour, I therefore ask the noble Baronesses, Lady Pinnock and Lady Taylor, for their continued patience as we consider what is a very complex issue. I trust that, in the light of the assurances I have given, they will be content not to press their amendments.

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

I am sure the Minister understands that this has dragged on and on, and we are now at a very late stage of a Bill that has already gone all the way through the Commons. Quite frankly, the degree of uncertainty and instability that is being caused to leaseholders—and to freeholders, to be fair to them—is unacceptable. Yet again in this Chamber, we hear the phrase, “in due course”. I do not know what that means; it can mean anything from tomorrow to in three years’ time when we get round to sorting it out. That is not acceptable either.

We had a very detailed report from the Competition and Markets Authority, which roundly condemned the use of ground rents as a mechanism. We have heard in this Chamber over and again that this is money for nothing and that it has resulted in the most dreadful exploitation. The example I gave in Committee on Monday of an elderly couple virtually being held to ransom by the freeholder is absolutely shocking. That will be going on in millions of homes across the country. This is just not acceptable any longer. I hope that the Secretary of State will very rapidly make up his mind as to what he is going to do about this, stop being bulldozed by freeholder interests in his own party, make a decision and get rid of ground rents, once and for all. This would let people sleep easy in their beds, which they have not been able to do while this debate has been going on.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I think there was a question there, and my response is that we went out, quite rightly, to consult, and the consultation did not finish until towards the end of January. This is a complex issue. If we do it badly or wrong then we will make mistakes and these people will potentially be in a more difficult situation. From the end of January to April is not a long time. We are doing it as fast as we can, and we will come back to the House with further details.

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

I understand the response the Minister has given, but she has to understand that this consultation has its own process and in due course we will look at the analysis. I do not know whether I am accidentally calling for another meeting here, but how did we end up with reports in the newspapers? That causes more uncertainty and instability for people in their homes who are getting their information from the media. Surely there needs to be a statement or some clarification through the next stages of the Bill, so that, very early on, we can look at getting a clear, certain message out to the millions of leaseholders who have been adversely affected by the ground rent situation.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

The Government have no control over what goes into the media, and it is something that the Government have to accept.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

Let us end on a positive. I thank the Minister for her response. There is agreement that unregulated ground rents are unacceptable, and that some freeholders are unscrupulous and exploit their leaseholders, holding them to ransom, as the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage, said.

However, it would be really helpful if, as we complete the various stages of the Bill, the Minister could confirm that the Government will be able to bring forward a detailed amendment regarding ground rents before Report; otherwise, those of us who raised this issue in Committee will raise it again on Report. Unfortunately, this will put the Minister in a difficult position, one in which she has to say, “In due course, something is going to turn up”. Let us send a message to the department that “in due course” means “before Report”.