Data Protection and Digital Information Bill

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 24th April 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, has not that demonstrated the disproportionality of these measures?

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

The noble Viscount explained in response to the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, that at every stage where the powers are going to be expanded, it would come back as an affirmative regulation. I might have been a bit slow about this, but I have been having a look and I cannot see where it says that. Perhaps he could point that out to me, because that would provide some reassurance that each stage of this is coming back to us.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I understand, very quickly, that it is in paragraph 1(1), but again, in the interests of time, maybe we could talk about that outside the Room.

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Moved by

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

239: Clause 133, page 169, line 10, at end insert—
“(2A) After section 25, insert—“25A Review of form in which registers are to be kept(1) The Secretary of State must commission a review of the provisions of this Act and of related legislation, with a view to the creation of a single digital register of births and deaths.(2) The review must consider and make recommendations on the effect of the creation of a single digital register on—(a) fraud,(b) data collection, and(c) ease of registration.(3) The Secretary of State must lay the conclusions of their review before Parliament within six months of this section coming into force.””Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would insert a new section into the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953 requiring a review of relevant legislation, with consideration of creating a single digital register for registered births and registered deaths and recommendations on the effects of such a change on reducing fraud, improving data collection and streamlining digital registration.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise to move Amendment 239 and to speak to Amendment 250 in my name. I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for their support for Amendment 250.

These amendments tackle the sensitive but vital process of registering births and deaths. We are pleased that, in Clauses 133 to 137, the Government have set about modernising the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953. The legislation created a huge paper trail of registrations, with local registrars being required to hold paper copies of every live birth, stillbirth and death, as well as providing certified paper copies of the register entries. Since 2009, registrars have also recorded this information electronically, so there is a huge duplication of effort. The clauses now proposed allow registrars to decide the best form in which to record this information, with an expectation that we will largely move to an online database.

These proposals make sense and will be widely welcomed. They make the functioning of the registrar more efficient. More importantly, they will make it easier for families, particularly those that have been bereaved, to inform authorities at what is often a difficult and distressing time. However, we believe that the Bill could go even further to simplify the process, tackle fraud and support bereaved families.

Our Amendment 239 would move away from individual registrars deciding how to record the information and would instead take the first steps to creating a single digital register of births and deaths. Our proposal is that the Secretary of State should commission a review to consider the viability of such a proposal and its potential impact on tackling fraud, the protection of personal data and whether such a scheme would simplify registration procedures on a national level. It would require the conclusions of the review to be laid before Parliament within six months of the section coming into law.

We believe that this standardisation would make it easier for law enforcement agencies to check whether identities are being stolen and whether patterns of identity theft are emerging. It would also enable regulators to set national standards as to how this information should be protected and accessed by, for example, those with commercial interests. It should also make it easier for individuals living in one part of the country to register a death in another part of the country. I hope that the Minister sees the sense of these modest proposals.

Amendment 250 addresses the further potential for the Tell Us Once service. This has been a welcome initiative, which enables bereaved families to inform a large number of government and public sector bodies that a death has occurred without repeating the details over and over again. This considerably reduces the administrative burden at a time of distress and complexity while dealing with the consequences of a bereavement. However, private organisations are not included and loved ones are still tasked with contacting organisations such as employers, banks, energy and telephone companies and so on. Inevitably, the response from these organisations is variable and can be unwittingly insensitive.

A number of charities, including Marie Curie, came together to establish the UK Commission on Bereavement, which was chaired by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London. Its 2022 report found that 61% of adult respondents had experienced practical challenges when notifying an organisation of the death of a loved one. The report made a number of recommendations, with the extension of Tell Us Once being a key issue raised. The report recommended a review of the scheme.

We believe that the time has come to roll out the benefits of the Tell Us Once scheme more widely, so we propose a review of the effectiveness of the current legislation, including any gaps in its provision. Recommendations should then be drawn up to assess whether the scheme could be expanded to include non-public sector, voluntary and private sector holders of personal data. Our proposal is that the Secretary of State should lay a report before Parliament within six months.

This is a common-sense set of proposals, which could bring positive benefits to bereaved families, making best use of digital services to ease the distress and pain of trying to manage a complex web of administrative tasks. I hope that noble Lords and the Minister will see the sense of these proposals and agree to take them forward. I beg to move.

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[Lord Harlech (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as someone who has been through the paper death registration process and grant of probate, which has something to do with why I am in your Lordships’ House, so I absolutely understand where the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, is coming from. I thank her for tabling these amendments to Clauses 133 and 142. They would require the Secretary of State to commission a review with a view to creating a single digital register for the registration of births and deaths and to conduct a review of the Government’s Tell Us Once scheme.

Clause 133 reforms how births and deaths are registered in England and Wales by enabling a move from a paper-based system of birth and death registration to registration in a single electronic register. An electronic register is already in use alongside the paper registers and has been since 2009. Well-established safety and security measures and processes are already in place with regard to the electronic infrastructure, which have proven extremely secure in practice. I assure noble Lords that an impact assessment has been completed to consider all the impacts relating to the move to an electronic register, although it should be noted that marriages and civil partnerships are already registered electronically.

The strategic direction is to progressively reduce the reliance on paper and the amount of paper in use, as it is insecure and capable of being tampered with or forged. The creation of a single electronic register will remove the risk of registrars having to transmit loose-leaf register pages back to the register office when they are registering births and deaths at service points across the district. It will also minimise the risk of open paper registers being stolen from register offices.

The Covid-19 pandemic had unprecedented impacts on the delivery of registration services across England and Wales, and it highlighted the need to offer more choice in how births and deaths are registered in the future. The provisions in the Bill will allow for more flexibility in how births and deaths are registered—for example, registering deaths by telephone, as was the case during the pandemic. Over 1 million deaths were successfully registered under provisions in the Coronavirus Act 2020. This service was well received by the public, registrars and funeral services.

Measures will be put in place to ensure that the identity of an informant is established in line with Cabinet Office good practice guidance. This will ensure that information provided by informants can be verified or validated for the purposes of registering by telephone. For example, a medical certificate of cause of death issued by a registered medical practitioner would need to have been received by the registrar before an informant could register a death by telephone. Having to conduct a review, as was proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, would delay moving to digital ways of working and the benefits this would introduce.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

Can I just be clear? The noble Lord was quite rightly saying that there is going to be a move to digital, rather than paper, and we all support that. However, our amendment went one stage further and said that there should be one national digital scheme. In the impact assessment and the strategic direction, to which the noble Lord referred, is one national scheme intended so that registrars do not have the flexibility to do their own thing, with their own computer? Is that now being proposed?

[Lord Harlech (Con)]

The noble Baroness asks a fair question. A major thing is being proposed, so it is best that we work with our DWP colleagues, and I commit to writing to the noble Baroness and the Committee on that point.

On the amendment to Clause 142, while we agree with the aim of improving the Tell Us Once service, our view is that the only way to achieve this is by upgrading its technology. This work is under way and expected to take up to two years to complete. It will ensure that Tell Us Once continues to operate into the future, providing us with the ability to build on opportunities to improve its speed and efficiency.

Going back to what I said earlier, it would not be right to commit to undertake a review of the service while this upgrading work is ongoing, especially as any extension of the service would require a fundamental change in how it operates, placing additional burdens on registrars and citizens, and undermining that simplicity-of-service principle. For those who still wish to use a paper process, that option will remain. For the reasons that I have set out, I am not able to accept these amendments and I hope that the noble Baroness is happy not to press them.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to hear that there is some work ongoing on the registrar process and that the noble Lord will write with further details. Obviously, if this work is already happening and we have the same intent, we would accept that our amendment is superfluous, but I need to be a little more assured that that is the case.

I was a bit more disappointed with what the Minister was saying on Tell Us Once. I suspect that the technology upgrade to which he referred is only for the current scheme, which refers only to the public sector. However, our proposal and the Marie Curie proposal, which was very well argued, is that there is now a need to extend that to the private sector—to banks, telephone companies and so on.

I did not really hear the Minister saying that that was going to be the case but, if he is going to write, maybe he could embrace that as well. As I said, Tell Us Once is a hugely popular scheme and if we can extend it further to a wider group of organisations, that would be a very popular thing for the Government to do.

In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 239 withdrawn.

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[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I am afraid that I will speak to every single one of the amendments in this group but one, which is in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and I have signed it. We have already debated the Secretary of State’s powers in relation to what will be the commission, in setting strategic priorities for the commissioner under Clause 32 and recommending the adoption of the ICAO code of practice before it is submitted to Parliament for consideration under Clause 33:

“Codes of practice for processing personal data”.


We have also debated Clause 34:

“Codes of practice: panels and impact assessments”.


And we have debated Clause 35:

“Codes of Practice: Secretary of States recommendations”.


The Secretary of State has considerable power in relation to the new commission, and then on top of that Clause 143 and Schedule 15 to the Bill provide significant other powers for the Secretary of State to interfere with the objective and impartial functioning of the information commission by the appointment of non-executive members of the newly formed commission. The guarantee of the independence of the ICO is intended to ensure the effectiveness and reliability of its regulatory function and that the monitoring and enforcement of data protection laws are carried out objectively and free from partisan or extra-legal considerations.

These amendments would limit the Secretary of State’s powers and leeway to interfere with the objective and impartial functioning of the new information commission, in particular by modifying Schedule 15 to the Bill to transfer budget responsibility and the appointment process of the non-executive members of the information commission to the relevant Select Committee. If so amended, the Bill would ensure that the new information commission has sufficient arm’s-length distance from the Government to oversee public and private bodies’ uses of personal data with impartiality and objectivity. DSIT’s delegated powers memorandum to the DPRRC barely mentions any of these powers, yet they are of considerable importance. Therefore, I am not surprised that there was no mention of them, but they are very significant.

We have discussed data adequacy before; of course, in his letter to us, the Minister tried to rebut some of the points we made about it. In fact, he quoted somebody who has briefed me extensively on it and has taken a very different view to the one he alleges she took in a rather partial quotation from evidence taken by the European Affairs Committee, which is now conducting an inquiry into data adequacy and its implications for the UK-EU relationship. We were told by Open Rights Group attendees at a recent meeting with the European Commission that it expressed concern to those present about the risk that the Bill poses to the EU adequacy agreement; this was not under Chatham House rules. It expressed this risk in a meeting at which a number of UK groups were present, which is highly significant in itself.

I mentioned the European Affairs Committee’s inquiry. I understand that the European Parliament’s Committee on Civil Liberties, Justice and Home Affairs has also given written evidence on its concerns about this Bill, its impact on adequacy and how it could impact the agreement. It put its arguments rather strongly. Has the Minister seen this? Is he aware of the written evidence that it has given to the European Affairs Select Committee? I suggest that he becomes aware of it and takes a view on whether we need to postpone Report until we have seen the European Affairs Select Committee’s report. If it comes to the conclusion that data adequacy is at risk, the Government will have to go back to the drawing board in a number of respects on this Bill. If the Select Committee report comes out and says that the impact of the Bill will not be data adequate, it would be rather foolish if we had already gone through Report by that time. Far be it from me not to want the Government to have egg on their face but it would be peculiar if they did not carefully observe the evidence being put to the European Affairs Select Committee and the progress that it is making in its inquiry. I beg to move.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for introducing his amendments so ably. When I read them, I had a strong sense of déjà vu as attempts by the Government to control the appointments and functioning of new regulators have been a common theme in other pieces of legislation that we have debated in the House and which we have always resisted. In my experience, this occurred most recently in the Government’s proposals for the Office for Environmental Protection, which was dealing with EU legislation being taken into by the UK and is effectively the environment regulator. We were able to get those proposals modified to limit the Secretary of State’s involvement; we should do so again here.

I very much welcome the noble Lord’s amendments, which give us a chance to assess what level of independence would be appropriate in this case. Schedule 15 covers the transition from the Information Commissioner’s Office to the appointment of the chair and non-executive members of the new information commission. We support this development in principle but it is crucial that the new arrangements strengthen rather than weaken the independence of the new commission.

The noble Lord’s amendments would rightly remove the rights of the Secretary of State to decide the number of non-executive members and to appoint them. Instead, his amendments propose that the chair of the relevant parliamentary committee should oversee appointments. Similarly, the amendments would remove the right of the Secretary of State to recommend the appointment and removal of the chair; again, this should be passed to the relevant parliamentary committee. We agree with these proposals, which would build in an additional tier of parliamentary oversight and help remove any suspicion that the Secretary of State is exercising unwarranted political pressure on the new commission.

The noble Lord’s amendments beg the question of what the relevant parliamentary committee might be. Although we are supportive of the wording as it stands, it is regrettable that we have not been able to make more progress on establishing a strong bicameral parliamentary committee to oversee the work of the information commission. However, in the absence of such a committee, we welcome the suggestion made in the noble Lord’s Amendment 256 that the Commons Science, Innovation and Technology Committee could fulfil that role.

Finally, we have tabled Amendment 259, which addresses what is commonly known as the “revolving door” whereby public sector staff switch to jobs in the private sector and end up working for industries that they were supposedly investigating and regulating previously. This leads to accusations of cronyism and corruption; whether or not there is any evidence of this, it brings the reputation of the whole sector into disrepute. Perhaps I should have declared an interest at the outset: I am a member of the Advisory Committee on Business Appointments and therefore have a ringside view of the scale of the revolving door taking place, particularly at the moment. We believe that it is time to put standards in public life back at the heart of public service; setting new standards on switching sides should be part of that. Our amendment would put a two-year ban on members of the information commission accepting employment from a business that was subject to enforcement action or acting for persons who are being investigated by the agency.

I hope that noble Lords will see the sense and importance of these amendments. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Lord Harlech (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, for their amendments to Schedule 15 to the Bill, which sets out the governance structure of the new information commission.

The ICO governance reforms ensure its accountability to Parliament. Before I go any further, let me stress that the Government are committed to the ICO’s ongoing independence. We have worked closely with the Information Commissioner, who is supportive of the reforms, which they state allow the ICO

“to continue to operate as a trusted, fair and independent regulator”.

The Government’s view, therefore, is that this Bill is compatible with maintaining the free flow of personal data from Europe. These reforms have been designed carefully with appropriate safeguards in place to protect the information commission’s independence and ensure accountability before Parliament on important issues such as public appointments, money and accounts.

The Bill requires the Secretary of State to give the member a written statement of reasons for the removal and make public the decision to do so, ensuring accountability and transparency. This process is in line with standard practice for other UK regulators, such as Ofcom, which do not require parliamentary oversight for the removal of non-executives.

The chair can be removed only by His Majesty on an Address by both Houses, provided that the Secretary of State presents a report in Parliament stating that they are satisfied that there are serious grounds for removal, as set out in the Bill. This follows the process for the removal of the current Information Commissioner.

Greater performance measurement will help the ICO achieve its objectives and enable it to adjust its resources to prioritise key areas of work. This will also increase accountability to Parliament—a point raised by both noble Lords—organisations and the public, who have an interest in its effectiveness.

The Government are satisfied that these processes safeguard the integrity of the regulator, are in line with best practices for other regulators and, crucially, balance the importance of the information commission’s independence with appropriate oversight by the Government and Parliament as necessary. The regulator is, and remains, accountable to Parliament, not the Government, in its delivery of data protection regulation.

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[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, as ever, the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, has nailed this issue. She has campaigned tirelessly in the field of child sexual abuse and has identified a major loophole.

What has been so important is learning from experience and seeing how these new generative AI models, which we have all been having to come to terms with them for the past 18 months, are so powerful in the hands of ordinary people who want to cause harm and sexual abuse. The important thing is that, under existing legislation, there are of course a number of provisions relating to creating deepfake child pornography, the circulation of pornographic deepfakes and so on. However, as the noble Baroness said, what the legislation does not do is go upstream to the AI system—the AI model itself—to make sure that those who develop those models are caught as well. That is what a lot of the discussion around deepfakes is about at the moment—it is, I would say, the most pressing issue—but it is also about trying to nail those AI system owners and users at the very outset, not waiting until something is circulated or, indeed, created in the first place. We need to get right up there at the outset.

I very much support what the noble Baroness said; I will reserve any other remarks for the next group of amendments.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I am pleased that we were able to sign this amendment. Once again, the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, has demonstrated her acute ability to dissect and to make a brilliant argument about why an amendment is so important.

As the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and others have said previously, what is the point of this Bill? Passing this amendment and putting these new offences on the statute book would give the Bill the purpose and clout that it has so far lacked. As the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, has made clear, although it is currently an offence to possess or distribute child sex abuse material, it is not an offence to create these images artificially using AI techniques. So, quite innocent images of a child—or even an adult—can be manipulated to create child sex abuse imagery, pornography and degrading or violent scenarios. As the noble Baroness pointed out, this could be your child or a neighbour’s child being depicted for sexual gratification by the increasingly sophisticated AI creators of these digital models or files.

Yesterday’s report from the Internet Watch Foundation said that a manual found on the dark web encourages “nudifying” tools to remove clothes from child images, which can then be used to blackmail them into sending more graphic content. The IWF reports that the scale of this abuse is increasing year on year, with 275,000 web pages containing child sex abuse being found last year; I suspect that this is the tip of the iceberg as much of this activity is occurring on the dark web, which is very difficult to track. The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, made a powerful point: there is a danger that access to such materials will also encourage offenders who then want to participate in real-world child sex abuse, so the scale of the horror could be multiplied. There are many reasons why these trends are shocking and abhorrent. It seems that, as ever, the offenders are one step ahead of the legislation needed for police enforcers to close down this trade.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, made clear, this amendment is “laser focused” on criminalising those who are developing and using AI to create these images. I am pleased to say that Labour is already working on a ban on creating so-called nudification tools. The prevalence of deepfakes and child abuse on the internet is increasing the public’s fear of the overall safety of AI, so we need to win their trust back if we are to harness the undoubted benefits that it can deliver to our public services and economy. Tackling this area is one step towards that.

Action to regulate AI by requiring transparency and safety reports from all those at the forefront of AI development should be a key part of that strategy, but we have a particular task to do here. In the meantime, this amendment is an opportunity for the Government to take a lead on these very specific proposals to help clean up the web and rid us of these vile crimes. I hope the Minister can confirm that this amendment, or a government amendment along the same lines, will be included in the Bill. I look forward to his response.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for tabling Amendment 291, which would create several new criminal offences relating to the use of AI to collect, collate and distribute child abuse images or to possess such images after they have been created. Nobody can dispute the intention behind this amendment.

We recognise the importance of this area. We will continue to assess whether and what new offences are needed to further bolster the legislation relating to child sexual abuse and AI, as part of our wider ongoing review of how our laws need to adapt to AI risks and opportunities. We need to get the answers to these complex questions right, and we need to ensure that we are equipping law enforcement with the capabilities and the powers needed to combat child sexual abuse. Perhaps, when I meet the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, on the previous group, we can also discuss this important matter.

However, for now, I reassure noble Lords that any child sex abuse material, whether AI generated or not, is already illegal in the UK, as has been said. The criminal law is comprehensive with regard to the production and distribution of this material. For example, it is already an offence to produce, store or share any material that contains or depicts child sexual abuse, regardless of whether the material depicts a real child or not. This prohibition includes AI-generated child sexual abuse material and other pseudo imagery that may have been AI or computer generated.

We are committed to bringing to justice offenders who deliberately misuse AI to generate child sexual abuse material. We demonstrated this as part of the road to the AI Safety Summit, where we secured agreement from NGO, industry and international partners to take action to tackle AI-enabled child sexual abuse. The strongest protections in the Online Safety Act are for children, and all companies in scope of the legislation will need to tackle child sexual abuse material as a priority. Applications that use artificial intelligence will not be exempt and must incorporate robust guard-rails and safety measures to ensure that AI models and technology cannot be manipulated for child sexual abuse purposes.

Furthermore, I reassure noble Lords that the offence of taking, making, distributing and possessing with a view to distribution any indecent photograph or pseudophotograph of a child under the age of 18 carries a maximum sentence of 10 years’ imprisonment. Possession alone of indecent photographs or pseudophotographs of children can carry a maximum sentence of up to five years’ imprisonment.

However, I am not able to accept the amendment, as the current drafting would capture legitimate AI models that have been deliberately misused by offenders without the knowledge or intent of their creators to produce child sexual abuse material. It would also inadvertently criminalise individual users who possess perfectly legal digital files with no criminal intent, due to the fact that they could, when combined, enable the creation of child sexual abuse material.

I therefore ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment, while recognising the strength of feeling and the strong arguments made on this issue and reiterating my offer to meet with her to discuss this ahead of Report.