Data Protection and Digital Information Bill Debate
Full Debate: Read Full DebateDepartment: Department for Science, Innovation & Technology
Lord Clement-Jones
Main Page: Lord Clement-Jones (Liberal Democrat - Life peer)Department Debates - View all Lord Clement-Jones's debates with the Department for Science, Innovation & Technology
Data Protection and Digital Information Bill
Lord Clement-Jones ExcerptsWednesday 24th April 2024
(2 weeks, 2 days ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Data Protection and Digital Information Bill 2022-23 View all Data Protection and Digital Information Bill 2022-23 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 30-VII Seventh marshalled list for Grand Committee - (23 Apr 2024)
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, it has been a privilege to be at the ringside during these three groups. I think the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, is well ahead on points and that, when we last left the Minister, he was on the ropes, so I hope that to avoid the knock- out he comes up with some pretty good responses today, especially as we have been lucky enough to have the pleasure of reading Hansard between the second and third groups. I think the best phrase that noble Baroness had was the “astonishing breadth” of Clause 128 and Schedule 11 that we explored with horror last time. I very much support what she says.
The current provisions seem to make the code non-mandatory, yet we discovered they are without “reasonable suspicion”, the words that are in the national security legislation—fancy having the Home Office as our model in these circumstances. Does that not put the DWP to shame? If we have to base best practice on the Home Office, we are in deep trouble.
That aside, we talked about “filtering” and “signals” last time. The Minister used that phrase twice, I think, and we discovered about “test and learn”. Will all that be included in the code?
All this points to the fragility and breadth of this schedule. It has been dreamt up in an extraordinarily expansive way without considering all the points that the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, has mentioned, including the KC’s opinion, all of which point to the fact that this schedule is going to infringe Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights. I hope the Minister comes up with some pretty good arguments.
My final question relates to the impact assessment–or non-impact assessment. The Minister talked about the estimate of DWP fraud, which is £6.4 billion. What does the DWP estimate it will be after these powers are implemented, if they are ever implemented? Should we not have an idea of the DWP’s ambitions in this respect?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)
My Lords, this has been a somewhat shorter debate than we have been used to, bearing in mind Monday’s experience. As with the first two groups debated then, many contributions have been made today and I will of course aim to answer as many questions as I can. I should say that, on this group, the Committee is primarily focusing on the amendments brought forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, and I will certainly do my very best to answer her questions.
From the debate that we have had on this measure, I believe that there is agreement in the Committee that we must do more to clamp down on benefit fraud. That is surely something on which we can agree. In 2022-23, £8.3 billion was overpaid due to fraud and error in the benefit system. We must tackle fraud and error and ensure that benefits are paid to those genuinely entitled to the help. These powers are key to ensuring that we can do this.
I will start by answering a question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson—I welcome him to the Committee for the first time today. He described himself as a “surveillance nerd”, but perhaps I can entreat him to rename himself a “data-gathering nerd”. As I said on Monday, this is not a surveillance power and suggesting that it is simply causes unnecessary worry. This is a power that enables better data gathering; it is not a surveillance or investigation power.
The third-party data measure does not allow the DWP to see how claimants spend their money, nor does it give the DWP access to millions of people’s bank accounts, as has been inaccurately presented. When the DWP examines the data that it receives from third parties, this data may suggest that there is fraud or error and require a further review. This will be done through our normal, regular, business-as-usual processes to determine whether incorrect payments are indeed being made. This approach is not new. As alluded to in this debate, through the Finance Act 2011, Parliament has already determined that this type of power is proportionate and appropriate, as HMRC already owns similar powers regarding banking institutions and third parties in relation to all taxpayers.
I listened very carefully to the noble Lord and will, however, take back his points and refer again to our own legal team. I think the point was made about the legality of all this. It is a very important point that he has made with all his experience, and I will take it back and reflect on it.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
That is a very fair question, and I hope that I understand it correctly. I can say that the limit for the DWP is that it can gain only from what the third party produces. Whatever goes on behind the doors of the third party is for them and not us. Whether there is a related account and how best to operate is a matter for the bank to decide. We may therefore end up getting very limited information, in terms of the limits of our powers. I hope that helps, but I will add some more detail in the letter.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, the Minister extolled the green-rated nature of this impact assessment. In the midst of all that, did he answer my question?
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
I asked about the amount of fraud that the Government plan to detect, on top of the £6.4 billion in welfare overpayments that was detected last year.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
The figure that we have is £600 million but, again, I will reflect on the actual question that we are looking to address—the actual amount of fraud in the system.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
The Minister is saying that that figure is not to be found in this green-rated impact assessment, which most of us find to be completely opaque.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I will certainly take that back, but it is green rated.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, we have talked about proportionality and disproportionality throughout the debate on this Bill. Is it not extraordinary that that figure is not on the table, given the extent of these powers?
Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)
My Lords, the Minister was kind enough to mention me a little earlier. Can I just follow up on that? In the impact assessment, which I have here, nowhere can I find the £600 million figure, nor can I find anywhere the costs related to this. There will be a burden on the banks and clearly quite a burden on the DWP, actually, if it has got to trawl through this information, as the noble Viscount says, using people rather than machines. The costs are going to be enormous to save, it would appear, up to £120 million per year out of £6.4 billion per year of fraud. It does seem odd. It would be really helpful to have those cost numbers and to understand in what document they are, because I cannot find in the impact assessment where these numbers are.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I hope I can help both noble Lords. Although I must admit that I have not read every single page, I understand that the figure of £500 million is in the IA.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
Yes, £500 million. I mentioned £600 million altogether; that was mentioned by the OBR, which had certified this, and by the way, that figure was in the Autumn Statement.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, has not that demonstrated the disproportionality of these measures?
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
The noble Viscount explained in response to the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, that at every stage where the powers are going to be expanded, it would come back as an affirmative regulation. I might have been a bit slow about this, but I have been having a look and I cannot see where it says that. Perhaps he could point that out to me, because that would provide some reassurance that each stage of this is coming back to us.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I understand, very quickly, that it is in paragraph 1(1), but again, in the interests of time, maybe we could talk about that outside the Room.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I can reassure the noble Lord that that is the case, yes.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I reassure noble Lords that is correct—it is paragraph 1(1). It may be rather complex, but it is in there, just to reassure all noble Lords.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
I am sorry to keep coming back, but did the Minister give us the paragraph in the impact assessment that referred to £500 million?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
No, I did not, but that is something which surely we can deal with outside the Room. However, I can assure noble Lords that it is in there.
Lord Allan of Hallam (LD)
My Lords, I want briefly to contribute to this debate, which I think is somewhat less contentious than the previous group of amendments. As somebody, again, who was working on the Online Safety Act all the way through, I really just pay tribute to the tenacity of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for pursuing this detail—it is a really important detail. We otherwise risk, having passed the legislation, ending up in scenarios where everyone would know that it was correct for the data-gathering powers to be implemented but, just because of the wording of the law, they would not kick in when it was necessary. I therefore really want to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for being persistent with it, and I congratulate the Government on recognising that, when there is an irresistible force, it is better to be a movable object than an immovable one.
I credit the noble Viscount the Minister for tabling these amendments today. As I say, I think that this is something that can pass more quickly because there is broad agreement around the Committee that this is necessary. It will not take away the pain of families who are in those circumstances, but it will certainly help coroners get to the truth when a tragic incident has occurred, whatever the nature of that tragic incident.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, having been involved in and seen the campaigning of the bereaved families and the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, in particular in the Joint Committee on the Draft Online Safety Bill onwards, I associate myself entirely with the noble Baroness’s statement and with my noble friend Lord Allan’s remarks.
Lord Leong (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for setting out the amendment and all noble Lords who spoke. I am sure the Minister will be pleased to hear that we support his Amendment 236 and his Amendment 237, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, has added her name.
Amendment 236 is a technical amendment. It seeks the straightforward deletion of words from a clause, accounting for the fact that investigations by a coroner, or procurator fiscal in Scotland, must start upon them being notified of the death of a child. The words
“or are due to conduct an investigation”
are indeed superfluous.
We also support Amendment 237. The deletion of this part of the clause would bring into effect a material change. It would empower Ofcom to issue a notice to an internet service provider to retain information in all cases of a child’s death, not just cases of suspected suicide. Sadly, as many of us have discovered in the course of our work on this Bill, there is an increasing number of ways in which communication online can be directly or indirectly linked to a child’s death. These include areas of material that is appropriate for adults only; the inability to filter harmful information, which may adversely affect mental health and decision-making; and, of course, the deliberate targeting of children by adults and, in some cases, by other children.
There are adults who use the internet with the intention of doing harm to children through coercion, grooming or abuse. What initially starts online can lead to contact in person. Often, this will lead to a criminal investigation, but, even if it does not, the changes proposed by this amendment could help prevent additional tragic deaths of children, not just those caused by suspected child suicides. If the investigating authorities have access to online communications that may have been a contributing factor in a child’s death, additional areas of concern can be identified by organisations and individuals with responsibility for children’s welfare and action taken to save many other young lives.
Before I sit down, I want to take this opportunity to say a big thank you to the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and all those who have campaigned on this issue relentlessly and brought it to our attention.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, I will be brief because we very much support these amendments. Interestingly, Amendment 239 from the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, follows closely on from a Private Member’s Bill presented in November 2021 by the Minister’s colleague, Minister Saqib Bhatti, and before that by the right honourable Andrew Mitchell, who is also currently a Minister. The provenance of this is impeccable, so I hope that the Minister will accept Amendment 239 with alacrity.
We very much support Amendment 250. The UK Commission on Bereavement’s Bereavement is Everyone’s Business is a terrific report. We welcome Clause 133 but we think that improvements can be made. The amendment from the noble Baroness, which I have signed, will address two of the three recommendations that the report made on the Tell Us Once service. It said that there should be a review, which this amendment reflects. It also said that
“regulators must make sure bereaved customers are treated fairly and sensitively”
by developing minimum standards. We very much support that. It is fundamentally a useful service but, as the report shows, it can clearly be improved. I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, on picking up the recommendations of the commission and putting them forward as amendments to this Bill.
Lord Harlech (Con)
My Lords, I declare an interest as someone who has been through the paper death registration process and grant of probate, which has something to do with why I am in your Lordships’ House, so I absolutely understand where the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, is coming from. I thank her for tabling these amendments to Clauses 133 and 142. They would require the Secretary of State to commission a review with a view to creating a single digital register for the registration of births and deaths and to conduct a review of the Government’s Tell Us Once scheme.
Clause 133 reforms how births and deaths are registered in England and Wales by enabling a move from a paper-based system of birth and death registration to registration in a single electronic register. An electronic register is already in use alongside the paper registers and has been since 2009. Well-established safety and security measures and processes are already in place with regard to the electronic infrastructure, which have proven extremely secure in practice. I assure noble Lords that an impact assessment has been completed to consider all the impacts relating to the move to an electronic register, although it should be noted that marriages and civil partnerships are already registered electronically.
The strategic direction is to progressively reduce the reliance on paper and the amount of paper in use, as it is insecure and capable of being tampered with or forged. The creation of a single electronic register will remove the risk of registrars having to transmit loose-leaf register pages back to the register office when they are registering births and deaths at service points across the district. It will also minimise the risk of open paper registers being stolen from register offices.
The Covid-19 pandemic had unprecedented impacts on the delivery of registration services across England and Wales, and it highlighted the need to offer more choice in how births and deaths are registered in the future. The provisions in the Bill will allow for more flexibility in how births and deaths are registered—for example, registering deaths by telephone, as was the case during the pandemic. Over 1 million deaths were successfully registered under provisions in the Coronavirus Act 2020. This service was well received by the public, registrars and funeral services.
Measures will be put in place to ensure that the identity of an informant is established in line with Cabinet Office good practice guidance. This will ensure that information provided by informants can be verified or validated for the purposes of registering by telephone. For example, a medical certificate of cause of death issued by a registered medical practitioner would need to have been received by the registrar before an informant could register a death by telephone. Having to conduct a review, as was proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, would delay moving to digital ways of working and the benefits this would introduce.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his exposition. He explained the purposes of Clauses 138 to 141 and extolled their virtues, and helpfully explained what my amendments are trying to do—not that he has shot any foxes in the process.
The purpose of my amendments is much more fundamental, and that is to question the methodology of the Government in all of this. The purpose of NUAR is to prevent accidental strikes where building works damage underground infrastructure. However, the Government seem to have ignored the fact that an equivalent service—LinesearchbeforeUdig, or LSBUD—already achieves these aims, is much more widely used than NUAR and is much more cost effective. The existing system has been in place for more than 20 years and now includes data from more than 150 asset owners. It is used by 270,000 UK digging contractors and individuals—and more every day. The fact is that, without further consultation and greater alignment with current industry best practice, NUAR risks becoming a white elephant, undermining the safe working practices that have kept critical national infrastructure in the UK safe for more than two decades.
However, the essence of these amendments is not to cancel NUAR but to get NUAR and the Government to work much more closely with the services that already exist and those who wish to help. They are designed to ensure that proper consultation and democratic scrutiny is conducted before NUAR is implemented in statutory form. Essentially, the industry says that NUAR could be made much better and much quicker if it worked more closely with the private sector services that already exist. Those who are already involved with LinesearchbeforeUdig say, first of all, that NUAR will create uncertainty and reduce safety, failing in its key aims.
The Government have been developing the NUAR since 2018. Claiming that it would drive a reduction in unexpected underground assets being damaged in roadworks, the impact assessment incorrectly states:
“No businesses currently provide a service that is the same or similar to the service that NUAR would provide”.
In fact, as I said, LSBUD has been providing a safe digging service in the UK for 20 years and has grown significantly over that time. Without a plan to work more closely with LSBUD as the key industry representative, NUAR risks creating more accidental strikes of key network infrastructure, increasing risks to workers safety through electrical fires, gas leaks, pollution and so on. The public at home or at work would also suffer more service outages and disruption.
Secondly, NUAR will add costs and stifle competition. The Government claim that NUAR will deliver significant benefits to taxpayers, reduce disruption and prevent damage to underground assets, but the impact assessment ignores the fact that NUAR’s core functions are already provided through the current system—so its expected benefits are vastly overstated. While asset owners, many of whom have not been consulted, will face costs of more than £200 million over the first 10 years, the wholesale publication of asset owners’ entire networks creates commercially sensitive risks, damaging innovation and competition. Combined with the uncertainties about how quickly NUAR can gain a critical mass of users and data, this again calls into question why NUAR does not properly align with and build on the current system but instead smothers competition and harms a successful, growing UK business.
Thirdly, NUAR risks undermining control over sensitive CNI data. Underground assets are integral to critical national infrastructure; protecting them is vital to the UK’s economic and national security. LSBUD deliberately keeps data separate and ensures that data owners remain in full control over who can access their data via a secure exchange platform. NUAR, however, in aiming to provide a single view of all assets, removes providers’ control over their own data—an essential security fail-safe. It would also expand opportunities for malicious actors to target sectors in a variety of ways—for instance, the theft of copper wires from telecom networks.
NUAR shifts control over data access to a centralised government body, with no clear plan for how the data is to be protected from unauthorised access, leading to serious concerns about security and theft. Safe digging is paramount; mandating NUAR will lead to uncertainty, present more health and safety dangers to workers and the public and put critical national infrastructure at risk. These plans require further review. There needs to be, as I have said, greater alignment with industry best practice. Without further consultation, NUAR risks becoming a white elephant that undermines safe digging in the UK and increases risk to infrastructure workers and the public.
I will not go through the amendments individually as the Minister has mentioned what their effect would be, but I will dispel a few myths. The Government have claimed that NUAR has the overwhelming support of asset owners. In the view of those who briefed me, that is not an accurate reflection of the broadband and telecoms sector in particular; a number of concerns from ISPA members have been raised with the NUAR team around cost and security that have yet to be addressed. This is borne out by the fact that there are notable gaps in the major asset owners in the telecoms sector signed up to NUAR at this time.
Clearly, the noble Viscount is resisting changing the procedure by which these changes are made from negative to affirmative, but I hope I have gone some way to persuade the Committee of the importance of this change to how the NUAR system is put on a statutory footing. He talked about a “handful” of data; the comprehensive nature of the existing system is pretty impressive, and it is a free service, updated on a regular basis, which covers more than 150 asset owners and 98% of high-risk assets. NUAR currently covers only one-third of asset owners. The comparisons are already not to the advantage of NUAR.
I hope the Government will at least, even if they do not agree with these amendments, think twice before proceeding at the speed they seem to be and without the consent or taking on board the concerns of those who are already heavily engaged with Linesearch- beforeUdig who find it pretty satisfactory for their purposes.
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister really did big up this section of the Bill. He said it would revolutionise this information service, that it would bring many benefits, has a green rating, would be the Formula 1 of data transfer in mapping and so on. We were led to expect quite a lot from this part of the legislation. It is an important part of the Bill, because it signifies some government progress towards the goal of creating a comprehensive national underground asset register, as he put it, or NUAR. We are happy to support this objective, but we have concerns about the progress being made and the time it is taking.
To digress a bit here, it took me back 50 years to when I was a labourer working by the side of a bypass. One of the guys I was working with was operating our post hole borer; it penetrated the Anglian Water system and sent a geyser some 20 metres up into the sky, completely destroying my midday retreat to the local pub between the arduous exercise of digging holes. Had he had one of the services on offer, I suspect that we would not have been so detained. It was quite an entertaining incident, but it clearly showed the dangers of not having good mapping.
As I understand it, and as was outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, since 2018 the Government have been moving towards this notion of somewhere recording what lies below the surface in our communities. We have had street works legislation going back several decades, from at least 1991. In general, progress towards better co-ordination of utilities excavations has not been helped by poor and low levels of mapping and knowledge of what and which utilities are located underground. This is despite the various legislative attempts to make that happen, most of which have attempted to bring better co-ordination of services.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
I start by thanking the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Bassam, for their respective replies. As I have said, the Geospatial Commission has been engaging extensively with stakeholders, including the security services, on NUAR since 2018. This has included a call for evidence, a pilot project, a public consultation, focus groups, various workshops and other interactions. All major gas and water companies have signed up, as well as several large telecoms firms.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
While the Minister is speaking, maybe the Box could tell him whether the figure of only 33% of asset owners having signed up is correct? Both I and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, mentioned that; it would be very useful to know.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
It did complete a pilot phase this year. As it operationalises, more and more will sign up. I do not know the actual number that have signed up today, but I will find out.
NUAR does not duplicate existing commercial services. It is a standardised, interactive digital map of buried infrastructure, which no existing service is able to provide. It will significantly enhance data sharing and access efficiency. Current services—
Viscount Camrose (Con)
I am not sure that there is doubt over the current scope of NUAR; it is meant to address all buried infrastructure in the United Kingdom. LSBUD does make extensive representations, as indeed it has to parliamentarians of both Houses, and has spoken several times to the Geospatial Commission. I am very happy to commit to continuing to do so.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, is absolutely right to be asking that question. We can go only on the briefs we get. Unlike the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, I have not been underground very recently, but we do rely on the briefings we get. LSBUD is described as a
“sustainably-funded UK success story”—
okay, give or take a bit of puff—that
“responds to most requests in 5 minutes or less”.
It has
“150+ asset-owners covering nearly 2 million km and 98% of high-risk assets—like gas, electric, and fuel pipelines”.
That sounds as though we are in the same kind of territory. How can the Minister just baldly state that NUAR is entirely different? Can he perhaps give us a paragraph on how they differ? I do not think that “completely different” can possibly characterise this relationship.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
As I understand it, LSBUD services are provided on a pdf, on request. It is not interactive; it is not vector-based graphics presented on a map, so it cannot be interrogated in the same way. Furthermore, as I understand it—and I am happy to be corrected if I am misstating—LSBUD has a great many private sector asset owners, but no public sector data is provided. All of it is provided on a much more manualised basis. The two services simply do not brook comparison. I would be delighted to speak to LSBUD.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, we are beginning to tease out something quite useful here. Basically, NUAR will be pretty much an automatic service, because it will be available online, I assume, which has implications on data protection, on who owns the copyright and so on. I am sure there are all kinds of issues there. It is the way the service is delivered, and then you have the public sector, which has not taken part in LSBUD. Are those the two key distinctions?
Viscount Camrose (Con)
Indeed, there are two key distinctions. One is the way that the information is provided online, in a live format, and the other is the quantity and nature of the data that is provided, which will eventually be all relevant data in the United Kingdom under NUAR, versus those who choose to sign up on LSBUD and equivalent services. I am very happy to write on the various figures. Maybe it would help if I were to arrange a demonstration of the technology. Would that be useful? I will do that.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
Unlike the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, I do not have that background in seeing what happens with the excavators, but I would very much welcome that. The Minister again is really making the case for greater co-operation. The public sector has access to the public sector information, and LSBUD has access to a lot of private sector information. Does that not speak to co-operation between the two systems? We seem to have warring camps, where the Government are determined to prove that they are forging ahead with their new service and are trampling on quite a lot of rights, interests and concerns in doing so—by the sound of it. The Minister looks rather sceptical.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
I am not sure whose rights are being trampled on by having a shared database of these things. However, I will arrange a demonstration, and I confidently state that nobody who sees that demonstration will have any cynicism any more about the quality of the service provided.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
All I can say is that, in that case, the Minister has been worked on extremely well.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
In addition to the situation that the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, described, I was braced for a really horrible situation, because these things very often lead to danger and death, and there is a very serious safety argument to providing this information reliably and rapidly, as NUAR will.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
Before the Minister’s peroration, I just want to check something. He talked about the discovery project and contact with the industry; by that, I assume he was talking about asset owners as part of the project. What contact is proposed with the existing company, LinesearchbeforeUdig, and some of its major supporters? Can the Government assure us that they will have greater contact or try to align? Can they give greater assurance than they have been able to give today? Clearly, there is suspicion here of the Government’s intentions and how things will work out. If we are to achieve this safety agenda—I absolutely support it; it is the fundamental issue here—more work needs to be done in building bridges, to use another construction metaphor.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
As I said, the Government have met the Geospatial Commission many times. I would be happy to meet it in order to help it adapt its business model for the NUAR future. As I said, it has attended the last three discovery workshops, allowing this data.
I close by thanking noble Lords for their contributions. I hope they look forward to the demonstration.
Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom (Con)
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, on her amendment and thank her for allowing me to add my name to it. I agree with what she said. I, too, had the benefit of a meeting with the Lord Chancellor, which was most helpful. I am grateful to Mr Paul Marshall—whom the noble Baroness mentioned and who has represented several sub-postmasters in the Horizon scandal—for his help and advice in this matter.
My first short point is that evidence derived from a computer is hearsay. There is good reason for treating hearsay evidence with caution. Computer scientists know—although the general public do not—that only the smallest and least complex computer programs can be tested exhaustively. I am told that the limit for that testing is probably around 100 lines of a well-designed and carefully written program. Horizon, which Mr Justice Fraser said was not in the least robust, consisted of a suite of programs involving millions of lines of code. It will inevitably have contained thousands of errors because all computer programs do. Most computer errors do not routinely cause malfunctions. If they did, they would be spotted at an early stage and the program would be changed—but potentially with consequential changes to the program that might not be intended or spotted.
We are all aware of how frequently we are invited to accept software updates from our mobile telephone’s software manufacturers. Those updates are not limited to security chinks but are also required because bugs—or, as we learned yesterday from Paula Vennells’s husband, anomalies and exceptions—are inevitable in computer programs. That is why Fujitsu had an office dedicated not just to altering the sub-postmasters’ balances, shocking as that is, but to altering and amending a program that was never going to be perfect because no computer program is.
The only conclusion that one can draw from all this is that computer programs are, as the noble Baroness said, inherently unreliable, such that having a presumption in law that they are reliable is unsustainable. In the case of the DPP v McKeown and Jones—in 1997, I think—Lord Hoffmann said:
“It is notorious that one needs no expertise in electronics to be able to know whether a computer is working properly”.
One must always hesitate before questioning the wisdom of a man as clever as Lord Hoffmann, but he was wrong. The notoriety now attaches to his comment.
The consequences of the repeal of Section 69 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 have been that it reduces the burden of proof, so that Seema Misra was sent to prison in the circumstances set out by the noble Baroness. Further, this matter is urgent for two reasons; they slightly conflict with each other, but I will nevertheless set them out. The first is that for the presumption to remain in place for one minute longer means that there is a genuine risk that miscarriages of justice will continue to occur in other non-Post Office cases, from as early as tomorrow. The second is that any defence lawyer will, in any event, be treating the presumption as having been fatally undermined by the Horizon issues. The presumption will therefore be questioned in every court where it might otherwise apply. It needs consideration by Parliament.
My noble friend the Minister will say, and he will be right, that the Horizon case was a disgraceful failure of disclosure by the Post Office. But it was permitted by the presumption of the correctness of computer evidence, which I hope we have shown is unsustainable. Part of the solution to the problem may lie in changes to disclosure and discovery, but we cannot permit a presumption that we know to be unfounded to continue in law.
My noble friend may also go on to say that our amendment is flawed in that it will place impossible burdens on prosecutors, requiring them to get constant certificates of proper working from Microsoft, Google, WhatsApp, and whatever Twitter is called nowadays. Again, he may be right. We do not seek to bring prosecutions grinding to a halt, nor do we seek to question the underlying integrity of our email or communications systems, so we may need another way through this problem. Luckily, my noble friend is a very clever man, and I look forward to hearing what he proposes.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, we have heard two extremely powerful speeches; I will follow in their wake but be very brief. For many years now, I campaigned on amending the Computer Misuse Act; the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot, did similarly. My motivation did not start with the Horizon scandal, but was more at large because of the underlying concerns about the nature of computer evidence.
I came rather late to this understanding about the presumption of the accuracy of computer evidence. It is somewhat horrifying, the more you look into the history of this, which has been so well set out by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron. I remember advising MPs at the time about the Police and Criminal Evidence Act. I was not really aware of what the Law Commission had recommended in terms of getting rid of Section 69, or indeed what the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act did in 1999, a year after I came into this House.
The noble Baroness has set out the history of it, and how badly wrong the Law Commission got this. She set out extremely well the impact and illustration of Mrs Misra’s case, the injustice that has resulted through the Horizon cases—indeed, not just through those cases, but through other areas—and the whole aspect of the reliability of computer evidence. Likewise, we must all pay tribute to the tireless campaigning of the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot. I thought it was really interesting how he described computer evidence as hearsay, because that essentially is what it is, and there is the whole issue of updates and bug fixing.
The one area that I am slightly uncertain about after listening to the debate and having read some of the background to this is precisely what impact Mr Justice Fraser’s judgment had. Some people seem to have taken it as simply saying that the computer evidence was unreliable, but that it was a one-off. It seems to me that it was much more sweeping than that and was really a rebuttal of the original view the Law Commission took on the reliability of computer evidence.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
My Lords, I recognise the feeling of the Committee on this issue and, frankly, I recognise the feeling of the whole country with respect to Horizon. I thank all those who have spoken for a really enlightening debate. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for tabling the amendment and my noble friend Lord Arbuthnot for speaking to it and—if I may depart from the script—his heroic behaviour with respect to the sub-postmasters.
There can be no doubt that hundreds of innocent sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses have suffered an intolerable miscarriage of justice at the hands of the Post Office. I hope noble Lords will indulge me if I speak very briefly on that. On 13 March, the Government introduced the Post Office (Horizon System) Offences Bill into Parliament, which is due to go before a Committee of the whole House in the House of Commons on 29 April. The Bill will quash relevant convictions of individuals who worked, including on a voluntary basis, in Post Office branches and who have suffered as a result of the Post Office Horizon IT scandal. It will quash, on a blanket basis, convictions for various theft, fraud and related offences during the period of the Horizon scandal in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. This is to be followed by swift financial redress delivered by the Department for Business and Trade.
On the amendment laid by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron—I thank her and the noble Lords who have supported it—I fully understand the intent behind this amendment, which aims to address issues with computer evidence such as those arising from the Post Office cases. The common law presumption, as has been said, is that the computer which has produced evidence in a case was operating effectively at the material time unless there is evidence to the contrary, in which case the party relying on the computer evidence will need to satisfy the court that the evidence is reliable and therefore admissible.
This amendment would require a party relying on computer evidence to provide proof up front that the computer was operating effectively at the time and that there is no evidence of improper use. I and my fellow Ministers, including those at the MoJ, understand the intent behind this amendment, and we are considering very carefully the issues raised by the Post Office cases in relation to computer evidence, including these wider concerns. So I would welcome the opportunity for further meetings with the noble Baroness, alongside MoJ colleagues. I was pleased to hear that she had met with my right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor on this matter.
We are considering, for example, the way reliability of evidence from the Horizon system was presented, how failures of investigation and disclosure prevented that evidence from being effectively challenged, and the lack of corroborating evidence in many cases. These issues need to be considered carefully, with the full facts in front of us. Sir Wyn Williams is examining in detail the failings that led to the Post Office scandal. These issues are not straightforward. The prosecution of those cases relied on assertions that the Horizon system was accurate and reliable, which the Post Office knew to be wrong. This was supported by expert evidence, which it knew to be misleading. The issue was that the Post Office chose to withhold the fact that the computer evidence itself was wrong.
This amendment would also have a significant impact on the criminal justice system. Almost all criminal cases rely on computer evidence to some extent, so any change to the burden of proof would or could impede the work of the Crown Prosecution Service and other prosecutors.
Although I am not able to accept this amendment for these reasons, I share the desire to find an appropriate way forward along with my colleagues at the Ministry of Justice, who will bear the brunt of this work, as the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, alluded to. I look forward to meeting the noble Baroness to discuss this ahead of Report. Meanwhile, I hope she will withdraw her amendment.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
Can the Minister pass on the following suggestion? Paul Marshall, who has been mentioned by all of us, is absolutely au fait with the exact procedure. He has experience of how it has worked in practice, and he has made some constructive suggestions. If there is not a full return to Section 69, there could be other, more nuanced, ways of doing this, meeting the Minister’s objections. But can I suggest that the MoJ has contact with him and discusses what the best way forward would be? He has been writing about this for some years now, and it would be extremely useful, if the MoJ has not already engaged with him, to do so.
Lord Clement-Jones
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, I am afraid that I will speak to every single one of the amendments in this group but one, which is in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and I have signed it. We have already debated the Secretary of State’s powers in relation to what will be the commission, in setting strategic priorities for the commissioner under Clause 32 and recommending the adoption of the ICAO code of practice before it is submitted to Parliament for consideration under Clause 33:
“Codes of practice for processing personal data”.
We have also debated Clause 34:
“Codes of practice: panels and impact assessments”.
And we have debated Clause 35:
“Codes of Practice: Secretary of States recommendations”.
The Secretary of State has considerable power in relation to the new commission, and then on top of that Clause 143 and Schedule 15 to the Bill provide significant other powers for the Secretary of State to interfere with the objective and impartial functioning of the information commission by the appointment of non-executive members of the newly formed commission. The guarantee of the independence of the ICO is intended to ensure the effectiveness and reliability of its regulatory function and that the monitoring and enforcement of data protection laws are carried out objectively and free from partisan or extra-legal considerations.
These amendments would limit the Secretary of State’s powers and leeway to interfere with the objective and impartial functioning of the new information commission, in particular by modifying Schedule 15 to the Bill to transfer budget responsibility and the appointment process of the non-executive members of the information commission to the relevant Select Committee. If so amended, the Bill would ensure that the new information commission has sufficient arm’s-length distance from the Government to oversee public and private bodies’ uses of personal data with impartiality and objectivity. DSIT’s delegated powers memorandum to the DPRRC barely mentions any of these powers, yet they are of considerable importance. Therefore, I am not surprised that there was no mention of them, but they are very significant.
We have discussed data adequacy before; of course, in his letter to us, the Minister tried to rebut some of the points we made about it. In fact, he quoted somebody who has briefed me extensively on it and has taken a very different view to the one he alleges she took in a rather partial quotation from evidence taken by the European Affairs Committee, which is now conducting an inquiry into data adequacy and its implications for the UK-EU relationship. We were told by Open Rights Group attendees at a recent meeting with the European Commission that it expressed concern to those present about the risk that the Bill poses to the EU adequacy agreement; this was not under Chatham House rules. It expressed this risk in a meeting at which a number of UK groups were present, which is highly significant in itself.
I mentioned the European Affairs Committee’s inquiry. I understand that the European Parliament’s Committee on Civil Liberties, Justice and Home Affairs has also given written evidence on its concerns about this Bill, its impact on adequacy and how it could impact the agreement. It put its arguments rather strongly. Has the Minister seen this? Is he aware of the written evidence that it has given to the European Affairs Select Committee? I suggest that he becomes aware of it and takes a view on whether we need to postpone Report until we have seen the European Affairs Select Committee’s report. If it comes to the conclusion that data adequacy is at risk, the Government will have to go back to the drawing board in a number of respects on this Bill. If the Select Committee report comes out and says that the impact of the Bill will not be data adequate, it would be rather foolish if we had already gone through Report by that time. Far be it from me not to want the Government to have egg on their face but it would be peculiar if they did not carefully observe the evidence being put to the European Affairs Select Committee and the progress that it is making in its inquiry. I beg to move.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for introducing his amendments so ably. When I read them, I had a strong sense of déjà vu as attempts by the Government to control the appointments and functioning of new regulators have been a common theme in other pieces of legislation that we have debated in the House and which we have always resisted. In my experience, this occurred most recently in the Government’s proposals for the Office for Environmental Protection, which was dealing with EU legislation being taken into by the UK and is effectively the environment regulator. We were able to get those proposals modified to limit the Secretary of State’s involvement; we should do so again here.
I very much welcome the noble Lord’s amendments, which give us a chance to assess what level of independence would be appropriate in this case. Schedule 15 covers the transition from the Information Commissioner’s Office to the appointment of the chair and non-executive members of the new information commission. We support this development in principle but it is crucial that the new arrangements strengthen rather than weaken the independence of the new commission.
The noble Lord’s amendments would rightly remove the rights of the Secretary of State to decide the number of non-executive members and to appoint them. Instead, his amendments propose that the chair of the relevant parliamentary committee should oversee appointments. Similarly, the amendments would remove the right of the Secretary of State to recommend the appointment and removal of the chair; again, this should be passed to the relevant parliamentary committee. We agree with these proposals, which would build in an additional tier of parliamentary oversight and help remove any suspicion that the Secretary of State is exercising unwarranted political pressure on the new commission.
The noble Lord’s amendments beg the question of what the relevant parliamentary committee might be. Although we are supportive of the wording as it stands, it is regrettable that we have not been able to make more progress on establishing a strong bicameral parliamentary committee to oversee the work of the information commission. However, in the absence of such a committee, we welcome the suggestion made in the noble Lord’s Amendment 256 that the Commons Science, Innovation and Technology Committee could fulfil that role.
Finally, we have tabled Amendment 259, which addresses what is commonly known as the “revolving door” whereby public sector staff switch to jobs in the private sector and end up working for industries that they were supposedly investigating and regulating previously. This leads to accusations of cronyism and corruption; whether or not there is any evidence of this, it brings the reputation of the whole sector into disrepute. Perhaps I should have declared an interest at the outset: I am a member of the Advisory Committee on Business Appointments and therefore have a ringside view of the scale of the revolving door taking place, particularly at the moment. We believe that it is time to put standards in public life back at the heart of public service; setting new standards on switching sides should be part of that. Our amendment would put a two-year ban on members of the information commission accepting employment from a business that was subject to enforcement action or acting for persons who are being investigated by the agency.
I hope that noble Lords will see the sense and importance of these amendments. I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response, dusty though it may have been. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, is absolutely right; this Government have form in all areas of regulation. In every area where we have had legislation related to a regulator coming down the track, the Government have taken more power on and diminished parliamentary oversight rather than enhancing it.
It is therefore a little rich to say that accountability to Parliament is the essence of all this. That is not the impression one gets reading the data protection Bill; the impression you get is that the Government are tightening the screw on the regulator. That was the case with Ofcom in the Online Safety Act; it is the case with the CMA; the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, mentioned her experience as regards the environment. Wherever you look, the Government are tightening their control over the regulators. It is something the Industry and Regulators Committee has been concerned about. We have tried to suggest various formulae. A Joint Committee of both Houses was proposed by the Communications and Digital Committee; it has been endorsed by a number of other committees, such as the Joint Committee on the Draft Online Safety Bill, and I think it has even been commended by the Industry and Regulators Committee as well in that respect.
We need to crack this one. On the issue of parliamentary accountability for the regulator and oversight, the balance is not currently right. That applies particularly in terms of appointments, in this case of the commissioner and the non-executives. The Minister very conveniently talked about removal but this could be about renewal of term, and it is certainly about appointment. So maybe the Minister was a little bit selective with the example he chose to say where the control was.
We are concerned about the independence of the regulator. The Minister did not give an answer, so I hope that he will write about whether he knows what the European Affairs Select Committee is up to. I made a bit of a case on that. Evidence is coming in, and the relevant committee in the European Parliament is giving evidence. The Minister, the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, was guilty of this in a way, but the way that the data adequacy aspect is seen from this side of the North Sea seems rather selective. The Government need to try to try to put themselves in the position of the Commission and the Parliament on the other side of the North Sea and ask, “What do we think are the factors that will endanger our data adequacy as seen from that side?” The Government are being overly complacent in regarding it as “safe” once the Bill goes through.
It was very interesting to hear what the noble Baroness had to say about the revolving door issues. The notable thing about this amendment is how limited it is; it is not blanket. It would be entirely appropriate to have this in legislation, given the sensitivity of the roles that are carried out by senior people at the ICO.
However, I think we want to make more progress tonight, so I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, as ever, the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, has nailed this issue. She has campaigned tirelessly in the field of child sexual abuse and has identified a major loophole.
What has been so important is learning from experience and seeing how these new generative AI models, which we have all been having to come to terms with them for the past 18 months, are so powerful in the hands of ordinary people who want to cause harm and sexual abuse. The important thing is that, under existing legislation, there are of course a number of provisions relating to creating deepfake child pornography, the circulation of pornographic deepfakes and so on. However, as the noble Baroness said, what the legislation does not do is go upstream to the AI system—the AI model itself—to make sure that those who develop those models are caught as well. That is what a lot of the discussion around deepfakes is about at the moment—it is, I would say, the most pressing issue—but it is also about trying to nail those AI system owners and users at the very outset, not waiting until something is circulated or, indeed, created in the first place. We need to get right up there at the outset.
I very much support what the noble Baroness said; I will reserve any other remarks for the next group of amendments.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, I am pleased that we were able to sign this amendment. Once again, the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, has demonstrated her acute ability to dissect and to make a brilliant argument about why an amendment is so important.
As the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and others have said previously, what is the point of this Bill? Passing this amendment and putting these new offences on the statute book would give the Bill the purpose and clout that it has so far lacked. As the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, has made clear, although it is currently an offence to possess or distribute child sex abuse material, it is not an offence to create these images artificially using AI techniques. So, quite innocent images of a child—or even an adult—can be manipulated to create child sex abuse imagery, pornography and degrading or violent scenarios. As the noble Baroness pointed out, this could be your child or a neighbour’s child being depicted for sexual gratification by the increasingly sophisticated AI creators of these digital models or files.
Yesterday’s report from the Internet Watch Foundation said that a manual found on the dark web encourages “nudifying” tools to remove clothes from child images, which can then be used to blackmail them into sending more graphic content. The IWF reports that the scale of this abuse is increasing year on year, with 275,000 web pages containing child sex abuse being found last year; I suspect that this is the tip of the iceberg as much of this activity is occurring on the dark web, which is very difficult to track. The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, made a powerful point: there is a danger that access to such materials will also encourage offenders who then want to participate in real-world child sex abuse, so the scale of the horror could be multiplied. There are many reasons why these trends are shocking and abhorrent. It seems that, as ever, the offenders are one step ahead of the legislation needed for police enforcers to close down this trade.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, made clear, this amendment is “laser focused” on criminalising those who are developing and using AI to create these images. I am pleased to say that Labour is already working on a ban on creating so-called nudification tools. The prevalence of deepfakes and child abuse on the internet is increasing the public’s fear of the overall safety of AI, so we need to win their trust back if we are to harness the undoubted benefits that it can deliver to our public services and economy. Tackling this area is one step towards that.
Action to regulate AI by requiring transparency and safety reports from all those at the forefront of AI development should be a key part of that strategy, but we have a particular task to do here. In the meantime, this amendment is an opportunity for the Government to take a lead on these very specific proposals to help clean up the web and rid us of these vile crimes. I hope the Minister can confirm that this amendment, or a government amendment along the same lines, will be included in the Bill. I look forward to his response.
Lord Clement-Jones
“Deepfakes depicting sexual offences or activity without consent(1) It is an offence for a person to intentionally create, alter, or otherwise generate a deepfake depicting an intimate act. (2) A person is not guilty of an offence by virtue of subsection (1) if they show the person or persons, being over the age of 18, depicted in the deepfake provided consent for the creation, alteration or generation of the deepfake.(3) Offences under this section are punishable either on conviction on indictment or on summary conviction.(4) A person convicted on indictment of an offence under this section is liable to imprisonment for a term of not more than ten years, or to a fine not exceeding the prescribed sum for the purposes of this Act or to both.(5) A person convicted summarily of an offence under this section is liable—(a) to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months; or(b) to a fine not exceeding the prescribed sum for the purposes of this Act.(6) The Secretary of State must by regulations prescribe the sum for the purposes subsections (4) and (5).(7) Regulations made under subsection (6) are subject to the affirmative procedure.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment would make it an offence to intentionally generate a deepfake depicting activity without consent.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, I will speak to all the amendments in this group, other than Amendment 295 from the noble Baroness, Lady Jones. Without stealing her thunder, I very much support it, especially in an election year and in the light of the deepfakes we have already seen in the political arena—those of Sadiq Khan, those used in the Slovakian election and the audio deepfakes of the President of the US and Sir Keir Starmer. This is a real issue and I am delighted that she has put down this amendment, which I have signed.
In another part of the forest, the recent spread of deepfake photos purporting to show Taylor Swift engaged in explicit acts has brought new attention to the use, which has been growing in recent years, of deepfake images, video and audio to harass women and commit fraud. Women constitute 99% of the victims and the most visited deepfake site had 111 million users in October 2023. More recently, children have been found using “declothing” apps, which I think the noble Baroness mentioned, to create explicit deepfakes of other children.
Deepfakes also present a growing threat to elections and democracy, as I have mentioned, and the problems are increasingly rampant. Deepfake fraud rates rose by 3,000% globally in 2023, and it is hardly surprising that, in recent polling, 86% of the UK population supported a ban on deepfakes. I believe that the public are demanding an urgent solution to this problem. The only effective way to stop deepfakes, which is analogous to what the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, has been so passionately advocating, is for the Government to ban them at every stage, from production to distribution. Legal liability must hold to account those who produce deepfake technology, create and enable deepfake content, and facilitate its spread.
Existing legislation seeks to limit the spread of images on social media, but this is not enough. The recent images of Taylor Swift were removed from X and Telegram, but not before one picture had been viewed more than 47 million times. Digital watermarks are not a solution, as shown by a paper by world-leading Al researchers released in 2023, which concluded that
“strong and robust watermarking is impossible to achieve”.
Without measures across the supply chain to prevent the creation of deepfakes, the law will forever be playing catch-up.
The Government now intend to ban the creation of sexual imagery deepfakes; I welcome this and have their announcement in my hand:
“Government cracks down on ‘deepfakes’ creation”.
This will send a clear message that the creation of these intimate images is not acceptable. However, this appears to cover only sexual image deepfakes. These are the most prevalent form of deepfakes, but other forms of deepfakes are also causing noticeable and rapidly growing harms, most obviously political deepfakes—as the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, will illustrate—and deepfakes used for fraud. This also appears to cover only the endpoint of the creation of deepfakes, not the supply chain leading up to that point. There are whole apps and companies dedicated to the creation of deepfakes, and they should not exist. There are industries which provide legitimate services—generative Al and cloud computing—which fail to take adequate measures and end up enabling creation of deepfakes. They should take measures or face legal accountability.
The Government’s new measures are intended to be introduced through an amendment to the Criminal Justice Bill, which is, I believe, currently between Committee and Report in the House of Commons. As I understand it, however, there is no date scheduled yet for Report, as the Bill seems to be caught in a battle over amendments.
The law will, however, be extremely difficult to enforce. Perpetrators are able to hide behind anonymity and are often difficult to identify, even when victims or authorities are aware that deepfakes have been created. The only reliable and effective countermeasure is to hold the whole supply chain responsible for deepfake creation and proliferation. All parties involved in the AI supply chain, from AI model developers and providers to cloud compute providers, must demonstrate that they have taken steps to preclude the creation of deepfakes. This approach is similar to how society combats—or, rather, analogous to the way that I hope the Minister will concede to the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, society will combat—child abuse material and malware.
Lord Leong (Lab)
My Lords, I speak to Amendments 293 and 294 from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, Amendment 295 proposed by my noble friend Lady Jones and Amendments 295A to 295F, also in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones.
Those noble Lords who are avid followers of my social media feeds will know that I am an advocate of technology. Advanced computing power and artificial intelligence offer enormous opportunities, which are not all that bad. However, the intentions of those who use them can be malign or criminal, and the speed of technological developments is outpacing legislators around the world. We are constantly in danger of creating laws that close the stable door long after the virtual horse has bolted.
The remarkable progress of visual and audio technology has its roots in the entertainment industry. It has been used to complete or reshoot scenes in films in the event of actors being unavailable, or in some cases, when actors died before filming was completed. It has also enabled filmmakers to introduce characters, or younger versions of iconic heroes for sequels or prequels in movie franchises. This enabled us to see a resurrected Sir Alec Guinness and a younger version of Luke Skywalker, or a de-aged Indiana Jones, on our screens.
The technology that can do this is only around 15 years old, and until about five years ago it required extremely powerful computers, expensive resources and advanced technical expertise. The first malicious use of deepfakes occurred when famous actors and celebrities, mainly and usually women, had their faces superimposed on to bodies of participants in pornographic videos. These were then marketed online as Hollywood stars’ sex tapes or similar, making money for the producers while causing enormous distress to the women targeted. More powerful computer processors inevitably mean that what was once very expensive rapidly becomes much cheaper very quickly. An additional factor has turbo-boosted this issue: generative AI. Computers can now learn to create images, sound and video movement almost independently of software specialists. It is no longer just famous women who are the targets of sexually explicit deepfakes; it could be anyone.
Amendment 293 directly addresses this horrendous practice, and I hope that there will be widespread support for it. In an increasingly digital world, we spend more time in front of our screens, getting information and entertainment on our phones, laptops, iPads and smart TVs. What was once an expensive technology, used to titillate, entertain or for comedic purposes, has developed an altogether darker presence, well beyond the reach of most legislation.
In additional to explicit sexual images, deepfakes are known to have been used to embarrass individuals, misrepresent public figures, enable fraud, manipulate public opinion and influence democratic political elections and referendums. This damages people individually: those whose images or voices are faked, and those who are taken in by the deepfakes. Trusted public figures, celebrities or spokespeople face reputational and financial damage when their voices or images are used to endorse fake products or for harvesting data. Those who are encouraged to click through are at risk of losing money to fraudsters, being targeted for scams, or having their personal and financial data leaked or sold on. There is growing evidence that information used under false pretences can be used for profiling in co-ordinated misinformation campaigns, for darker financial purposes or political exploitation.
In passing, it is worth remembering that deepfakes are not always images of people. Last year, crudely generated fake images of an explosion, purported to be at the Pentagon, caused the Dow Jones industrial average to drop 85 points within four minutes of the image being published, and triggered emergency response procedures from local law enforcement before it was debunked 20 minutes later. The power of a single image, carefully placed and virally spreading, shows the enormous and rapid economic damage that deepfakes can create.
Amendment 294 would make it an offence for a person to generate a deepfake for the purpose of committing fraud, and Amendment 295 would make it an offence to create deepfakes of political figures, particularly when they risk undermining electoral integrity. We support all the additional provisions in this group of amendments; Amendments 295A to 295F outline the requirements, duties and definitions necessary to ensure that those creating deepfakes can be prosecuted.
I bring to your Lordships’ attention the wording of Amendment 295, which, as well as making it an offence to create a deepfake, goes a little further. It also makes it an offence to send a communication which has been created by artificial intelligence and which is intended to create the impression that a political figure has said or done something that is not based in fact. This touches on what I believe to be a much more alarming aspect of deepfakes: the manner in which false information is distributed.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, for tabling the amendments in this important group. I very much share the concerns about all the uses of deepfake images that are highlighted by these amendments. I will speak more briefly than I otherwise would with a view to trying to—
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, I would be very happy to get a letter from the Minister.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
I would be happy to write one. I will go for the abbreviated version of my speech.
I turn first to the part of the amendment that would seek to criminalise the creation, alteration or otherwise generation of deepfake images depicting a person engaged in an intimate act. The Government recognise that there is significant public concern about the simple creation of sexually explicit deepfake images, and this is why they have announced their intention to table an amendment to the Criminal Justice Bill, currently in the other place, to criminalise the creation of purposed sexual images of adults without consent.
The noble Lord’s Amendment 294 would create an offence explicitly targeting the creation or alteration of deepfake content when a person knows or suspects that the deepfake will be or is likely to be used to commit fraud. It is already an offence under Section 7 of the Fraud Act 2006 to generate software or deepfakes known to be designed for or intended to be used in the commission of fraud, and the Online Safety Act lists fraud as a priority offence and as a relevant offence for the duties on major services to remove paid-for fraudulent advertising.
Amendment 295 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, seeks to create an offence of creating or sharing political deepfakes. The Government recognise the threats to democracy that harmful actors pose. At the same time, the UK also wants to ensure that we safeguard the ability for robust debate and protect freedom of expression. It is crucial that we get that balance right.
Let me first reassure noble Lords that the UK already has criminal offences that protect our democratic processes, such as the National Security Act 2023 and the false communications offence introduced in the Online Safety Act 2023. It is also already an election offence to make false statements of fact about the personal character or conduct of a candidate or about the withdrawal of a candidate before or during an election. These offences have appropriate tests to ensure that we protect the integrity of democratic processes while also ensuring that we do not impede the ability for robust political debate.
I assure noble Lords that we continue to work across government to ensure that we are ready to respond to the risks to democracy from deepfakes. The Defending Democracy Taskforce, which seeks to protect the democratic integrity of the UK, is engaging across government and with Parliament, the UK’s intelligence community, the devolved Administrations, local authorities and others on the full range of threats facing our democratic institutions. We also continue to meet regularly with social media companies to ensure that they continue to take action to protect users from election interference.
Turning to Amendments 295A to 295F, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for them. Taken together, they would in effect establish a new regulatory regime in relation to the creation and dissemination of deepfakes. The Government recognise the concerns raised around harmful deepfakes and have already taken action against illegal content online. We absolutely recognise the intention behind these amendments but they pose significant risks, including to freedom of expression; I will write to noble Lords about those in order to make my arguments in more detail.
For the reasons I have set out, I am not able to accept these amendments. I hope that the noble Lord will therefore withdraw his amendment.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that rather breathless response and his consideration. I look forward to his letter. We have arguments about regulation in the AI field; this is, if you like, a subset of that—but a rather important subset. My underlying theme is “must try harder”. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Leong, for his support and pay tribute to Control AI, which is vigorously campaigning on this subject in terms of the supply chain for the creation of these deepfakes.
Pending the Minister’s letter, which I look forward to, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Clement-Jones
“Data risks from systemic competitors and hostile actors(1) The Secretary of State, in consultation with the Information Commissioner, must conduct a risk assessment on the data privacy risks associated with genomics and DNA companies that are headquartered in countries they determine to be systemic competitors and hostile actors.(2) Within 12 months of the passage of this Act, the Secretary of State must present this risk assessment report to Parliament and consult the intelligence and security agencies on the findings, taking into account the need to not make public information critical to national defence or ongoing operations.(3) This risk assessment must evaluate—(a) the potential for genomic and DNA data to be exfiltrated outside of the UK,(b) the degree of access granted to foreign entities, particularly those linked to systemic competitors and hostile actors, to the genomic and DNA data collected within the UK,(c) the potential misuse of genomic and DNA data for dual-use or other nefarious purposes,(d) the implications for UK national security and strategic advantage,(e) the risks to the privacy and rights of UK citizens, and (f) the potential for such data to be used in a manner that could compromise the privacy or security of UK citizens or the national interest.(4) The risk assessment must include, but is not limited to—(a) an analysis of the data handling and storage practices of genomics companies that are based in countries designated as systemic competitors and hostile actors,(b) an independent audit at any company site that could have access to UK genomics data, and(c) evidence of clear disclosure statements to consumers of products and services from genomics companies subject to data handling and disclosure requirements in the countries they are headquartered.(5) This risk assessment must be conducted as frequently as deemed necessary by the Secretary of State or the Information Commissioner to address evolving threats and ensure continued protection of the genomics sector from malign entities controlled, directly or indirectly, by countries designated as systemic competitors and hostile actors.(6) The Secretary of State has the authority to issue directives or guidelines based on the findings of the risk assessment to ensure compliance by companies or personnel operating within the genomics sector in the UK, safeguarding against identified risks and vulnerabilities to data privacy.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment seeks to ensure sufficient scrutiny of emerging national security and data privacy risks related to advanced technology and areas of strategic interest for systemic competitors and hostile actors. It aims to inform the development of regulations or guidelines necessary to mitigate risks and protect the data privacy of UK citizens’ genomics data and the national interest. It seeks to ensure security experts can scrutinise malign entities and guide researchers, consumers, businesses, and public bodies.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, what a relief—we are at the final furlong.
The UK is a world leader in genomics, which is becoming an industry of strategic importance for future healthcare and prosperity, but, frankly, it must do more to protect the genomic sector from systemic competitors that wish to dominate this industry for either economic advantage or nefarious purposes. Genomic sequencing—the process of determining the entirety of an organism’s DNA—is playing an increasing role in our NHS, which has committed to being the first national healthcare system to offer whole-genome sequencing as part of routine care. However, like other advanced technologies, our sector is exposed to data privacy and national security risks. Its dual-use potential means that it can also be used to create targeted bioweapons or genetically enhanced military. We must ensure that a suitable data protection environment exists to maintain the UK’s world-leading status.
So, how are we currently mitigating against such threats and why is our existing approach so flawed? Although I welcome initiatives such as the Trusted Research campaign and the Research Collaboration Advice Team, these bodies focus specifically on research and academia. We expect foreign companies that hold sensitive genomics and DNA to follow GDPR. I am not a hawk about relations with other countries, but we need to provide the new Information Commissioner with much greater expertise and powers to tackle complex data security threats in sensitive industries. There must be no trade-off between scientific collaboration and data privacy; that is what this amendment is designed to prevent. I beg to move.
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)
The Committee will be relieved to know that I will be brief. I do not have much to say because, in general terms, this seems an eminently sensible amendment.
We should congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, on his drafting ingenuity. He has managed to compose an amendment that brings together the need for scrutiny of emerging national security and data privacy risks relating to advanced technology, aims to inform regulatory developments and guidance that might be required to mitigate risks, and would protect the privacy of people’s genomics data. It also picks up along the way the issue of the security services scrutinising malign entities and guiding researchers, businesses, consumers and public bodies. Bringing all those things together at the end of a long and rather messy Bill is quite a feat—congratulations to the noble Lord.
I am rather hoping that the Minister will tell the Committee either that the Government will accept this wisely crafted amendment or that everything it contains is already covered. If the latter is the case, can he point noble Lords to where those things are covered in the Bill? Can he also reassure the Committee that the safety and security issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, are covered? Having said all that, we support the general direction of travel that the amendment takes.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
Nothing makes me happier than the noble Lord’s happiness. I thank him for his amendment and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, for his points; I will write to them on those, given the Committee’s desire for brevity and the desire to complete this stage tonight.
I wish to say some final words overall. I sincerely thank the Committee for its vigorous—I think that is the right word—scrutiny of this Bill. We have not necessarily agreed on a great deal, but I am in awe of the level of scrutiny and the commitment to making the Bill as good as possible. Let us be absolutely honest—this is not the most entertaining subject, but it is something that we all take extremely seriously and I pay tribute to the Committee for its work. I also extend sincere thanks to the clerks and our Hansard colleagues for agreeing to stay a little later than agreed, although that may not even be necessary. I very much look forward to engaging with noble Lords again before and during Report.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and all the team. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Harlech, whose first name we now know; these things are always useful to know. This has been quite a marathon. I hope that we will have many conversations between now and Report. I also hope that Report is not too early as there is a lot to sort out. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and I will be putting together our priority list imminently but, in the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.