Points of Order
Thursday 27th October 2016
(8 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Technical and Further Education Act 2017 Read Hansard Text
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can you give me any advice in my capacity as Chair of the Defence Committee? Both my Committee and the Foreign Affairs Committee have been extremely worried about the forthcoming major cuts to BBC Monitoring and the potential closure of Caversham Park, the centre where BBC Monitoring and Open Source Enterprise, an American organisation, exist side by side to the great advantage of many Government Departments. The Foreign Affairs Committee’s inquiry had to conclude without getting a responsible Minister to give evidence. My Committee has been trying in our inquiry since 14 October to get a responsible Minister, whom we gather should be from the Foreign Office or possibly the Cabinet Office, to come to us. This is a serious matter that is worrying a great many people in the military and intelligence communities. We look to your advice, Madam Deputy Speaker, as to what we can do to compel a Minister to do his job and come before us for scrutiny, which we must do in order to do our job.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Natascha Engel)
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for advance notice of his point of order. As he knows, the Chair is unable to compel Ministers to appear before Select Committees, but he has chosen the timing of his point of order well—the Leader of the House, who is very attentive, is here and will no doubt take those concerns to the Government.
Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. At questions to the Leader of the House before business questions, in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Steven Paterson) the Leader of the House—in all sobriety and apparently without any hint of irony—presented the behaviour of the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for East Surrey (Mr Gyimah), last week in talking out a private Member’s Bill as nothing more than answering questions from Members in the normal course of a debate. Every Member present knows that the reality—
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. This is a continuation of a debate rather than a point of order. The hon. Gentleman will have to use other avenues to pursue his grievance.
Bill Presented
Technical and Further Education Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Secretary Justine Greening, supported by Secretary Greg Clark, Secretary Damian Green, Ben Gummer, Damian Hinds, Robert Halfon, Mr Nick Gibb, Edward Timpson, Caroline Dinenage and Joseph Johnson, presented a Bill to make provision about technical and further education, and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 82) with explanatory notes (Bill 82-EN).
Technical and Further Education Bill
Monday 14th November 2016
(8 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Education (Justine Greening)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
The background to the Bill is that the Government have worked tirelessly over the past six years to embed our school reforms so that we can raise standards and ensure that an excellent academic route is open to all students. That work continues. Thanks in no small part to the hard work of the teaching profession, over 1.4 million more children are now being taught in schools rated as good or outstanding compared with 2010. This is vital if we are to be a country in which everyone not only has a level playing field for opportunity, but has their potential unlocked and can thereby do their best. This transformational progress has been great news, particularly for those young people who choose to build on their time at school by pursuing an academic route through Britain’s world-class universities on their way to joining the workforce and making a contribution to the economy. The truth is, however, that half—last year, most—of our young people, often those from disadvantaged backgrounds will choose not to go to university, but to follow a less purely academic route, or perhaps one that plays to their individual strengths, talents and interests.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
The Secretary of State will know that we are failing nationally to train enough graduate engineers to serve our own needs. One reason is the teaching of mathematics and the failure of young people to acquire skills in that subject. A lot of effort has been put into improving the quality of mathematics teaching in schools. Are we now starting to see the fruits of that extra effort?
Justine Greening
I believe that we are. Not only have we seen investment in more effective mathematics teaching—through some of the Mathematics Mastery work, for example—but we have tried to widen participation by making sure that girls do maths and science courses, thereby better balancing our engineering careers between men and women. Alongside that—this is why the Bill matters so much—we must recognise routes into such professions that are not purely academic which, for many of our young people, will take the form of technical education.
Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab)
Do the Government still want young people who do not achieve a C or above in maths and English to repeat their GCSEs, rather than having a more useful level 2 post-16 qualification?
Justine Greening
We have been clear that we do not want children to be left behind by not getting a GCSE in maths or English when they could have achieved one, so we want those who score a D to take resits. For others, however, there is the option to study for functional skills qualifications, and it is important for employers that we make sure those functional skills qualifications work effectively.
Justine Greening
I will make a little more progress. I will definitely let the hon. Gentleman intervene but, as he will know, I have some way to go as I introduce the Bill.
I was setting out how most young people will not necessarily go down an academic route, but choose more a technical educational route. Despite that fact, the technical education route open to those young people for decades has often lacked sufficient quality and failed to offer a proper pathway into the world of work. That is not acceptable. If we are to create a country that works for everyone, it is time that we gave technical education the focus its deserves, alongside our school and academic education reforms, so that people who choose to pursue this route have as good a chance at getting a high-skilled career as someone taking an academic route.
Nic Dakin
I think that everyone applauds the direction of travel for technical education. In response to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt) about GCSE maths and English, the Secretary of State focused on functional skills. Is she saying that those functional skills will remain as an equal qualification in the future, because I do not think that that is being said to institutions or students?
Justine Greening
What we are saying is that we want an education system, particularly at the primary and secondary level, that really stretches our young people to get through their GCSEs and to come out with GCSE qualifications that are well recognised and respected by employers. Alongside the resit policy, we want strong functional skills qualifications that can, in conjunction with a broader offer for technical education, enable young people to demonstrate their attainment in both maths and English. No young person should leave our education system without something to show for all their time spent on maths and English. It is important that they are able clearly to demonstrate their level of attainment to employers. At the same time, we need to make sure that people achieve as high a level of attainment as possible to recognise their potential in maths and English. STEM subjects, especially maths and English, have been a strong push for this Government so that we ensure that we give young people the critical building blocks that are important not just for their future careers and work but, much more broadly, so that they have a chance of being successful in life.
Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op)
The Secretary of State is being generous with her time. There is still quite a lot of confusion about this point. She says that she wants to make sure that GCSEs are well understood and that they have a certain status, so will she clarify whether those who will take the new maths and English GCSEs next year will be required to resit if they get a 4 or if they get a 5? Will that apply thereafter, or is it a transitional arrangement?
Justine Greening
Of course, a level 4 broadly equates to a C grade. We will make sure that the resit policy aligns with the new way of grading GCSEs that will come through next summer. I hope Members recognise that the most important thing is to ensure that young people come out of our education system with adequate skills, particularly in maths and English, as well as—dare I say—adequate digital skills, which are also important.
The aim of the Bill is to ensure that there is a genuine choice between high-quality academic and technical education routes. The Government want to build on what exists in the further and technical education sector and steadily create a gold standard of technical education for the first time so that students can be confident that if they commit their time and effort to a course, they will be building towards a successful career. We will unlock those opportunities only by addressing the challenges facing further education. We need to get to the root causes of poor-quality provision, including weak employer engagement, ineffective training methods, the proliferation of qualifications that are not highly valued and, of course, institutions with uncertain finances.
James Berry (Kingston and Surbiton) (Con)
Is collaboration between local institutions part of the process? Will my right hon. Friend commend the work of Kingston College in leading the way by federating with Carshalton College to provide a much better offer to local students?
Justine Greening
That work shows that colleges acting collectively can provide not only a higher-quality offer, but a broader one. We hope that through the local area review, other colleges will steadily make sure that they are co-ordinating their local provision for young people. Wherever young people are growing up, it is vital there is a strong further education offer on their doorstep if they want to follow a technical education route.
The good news is that much of the work is already well under way. Lord Sainsbury’s report on skills in this country led to the skills plan, which was published in July by my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles). Let me take this opportunity to wish him well, as will Members on both sides of the House, following the recent announcement about his health. I am sure that all Members look forward to seeing him back in the House as soon as possible.
The vision that my hon. Friend outlined in the skills plan involves streamlining technical education so that, despite the plethora of career opportunities, there are clearly identified routes into work that students can easily understand and that enable them to make informed decisions about their futures. The skills plan also explains how important it is for employers to play a big role so that the qualifications that young people obtain equip them with the skills and knowledge that they need to enter the jobs market successfully and start their careers. I shall come on to how the Bill will help us to deliver that.
Some 2.4 million apprenticeships were created during the previous Parliament. We want to build on our commitment to increasing both the quantity and quality of apprenticeships, and we remain committed to our target of creating 3 million more by 2020.
Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)
I accept that the Secretary of State is determined to ensure that enough students and other young people take up apprenticeships, but will she commit herself to a target for completing them, as well as a target for starting them?
Justine Greening
We do want to ensure that students complete their apprenticeships. As the hon. Gentleman will know, the Higher Education and Research Bill commits us to widening our review of how inclusive and open higher education is, taking account of not just the number of young people who embark on courses, but the number who finish them, particularly if they are from more disadvantaged and diverse backgrounds.
As part of last year’s spending review, we announced that we would provide more than half a billion pounds this year alone to help further education colleges and sixth forms to support students from disadvantaged backgrounds or those with low prior attainment. Moreover, we are already committed to future funding levels. Those assurances will give the sector the security that it requires to deliver the skills that young people need if they are to succeed in modern Britain. We are committed to doubling the 2010-11 spending on apprenticeships, in cash terms, by 2019-20, and to protecting the national base rate of £4,000 per student in 16-to-19 education for the duration of this Parliament. By 2019-20, our funding for 19-plus skills participation will be £3.4 billion, which represents a cash increase of 40% on 2015-16. The steady progress of the Government’s programme of area reviews for the further education sector means that we have taken another important step towards giving institutions the opportunity to put themselves on a secure financial footing.
Lucy Powell
I thank the Secretary of State for her generosity. I welcome the fact that further education funding streams have stabilised recently, but does she accept that the pernicious and deep cuts that the Government imposed on further education and technical education budgets during their first five years in office had a long-lasting and difficult impact on further education, and that that is why we are now so far behind our international comparators when it comes to post-16 funding?
Justine Greening
I do not accept the picture that the hon. Lady presents. In the long term, our technical education offer for young people has not met the ambitions that all of us should have had for it. However, when we went into government in 2010, we asked Alison Wolf to look into further education. Her report said that at least 350,000 young people had been let down by courses that had
“little to no labour market value.”
She said that those courses were not valued by employers and did not prepare young people for further study. Perhaps as damagingly, she also said that students had been “deliberately steered” away from challenging qualifications—that
“funding incentives have deliberately steered institutions, and, therefore, their students, away from qualifications that might stretch (and reward) young people and towards qualifications that can be passed easily.”
I make the point about what Alison Wolf said about the further and technical education system to demonstrate why the body of work undertaken over the last six years is so important. It has at its heart the Sainsbury review that was undertaken alongside Alison Wolf’s work, and what came out of that was the skills plan. I hope that Members on both sides of the House will now swing in behind the skills plan and, indeed, the Bill, which is part of how we will develop it.
Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)
What steps are being taken to address the continuing gender imbalance in our apprenticeships?
Justine Greening
My hon. Friend raises an important point. We want to make sure that young girls get exactly the same opportunities as young boys. We know that part of the challenge relates to the kinds of industries that might offer apprenticeships. The hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) asked me about the engineering profession. It is important to ensure that the technical education route is as desirable for young women as it is for young men, and among the ways we will do that is by steadily changing its image, by ensuring that it is of high quality, and by making sure that people know that if they follow this route, they will come out with experience and qualifications that employers truly value. That is why part of the Bill’s purpose is to put employers at the heart of our technical education strategy.
University technical colleges have also been established to address skills gaps in local and national industries. They provide technical education that meets the needs of modern businesses. Indeed, they also give a much different offer to young people who are interested in specialising through a technical education route.
Justine Greening
I would like to make a little more progress. I recognise the hon. Gentleman’s long-standing interest and expertise in this area, but let me get on to the Bill itself.
Alongside our wider education reforms, the Government’s work on technical and further education over the past six years represents a firm foundation on which we can now build a really strong technical route in this country. The Bill serves to do exactly that. Part 1 focuses on technical education. It extends the role of the Institute for Apprenticeships to give it responsibility for classroom-based technical education in addition to apprenticeships. It will be renamed as the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education. The measures take forward and support the reforms set out in Lord Sainsbury’s report and the skills plan so we can truly streamline the technical education system and ensure young people can follow clear routes to skilled employment. That will ensure that we have strong standards as part of an employer-led approach on technical education so that courses and apprenticeships develop knowledge, skills and behaviours in individuals that meet the needs of employers and improve overall productivity.
Rob Marris (Wolverhampton South West) (Lab)
The right hon. Lady may well know that those of us who have worked in factories and in similar jobs realise that often the people at the chalk face, as it were, know at least as much as employers about what skills are needed. How will we ensure the revamped institute includes workers or their representatives—as well as employers, of course—so that there is a rounded view of what is needed and what is appropriate for a particular skill?
Justine Greening
As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Government have talked significantly about our plans to make sure that workers have more representation at the higher echelons of business. As the Institute for Apprenticeships becomes responsible for technical education, it will of course have employers at its heart, but it will also work with other stakeholders including, importantly, further education colleges themselves. We will make sure that the institute can truly deliver on our ambition for it to be at the heart of how we drive forward and improve standards in technical education.
Part 2 of the Bill puts in place protections for students for the first time and provides greater certainty for institutions by introducing an insolvency regime for further education and sixth-form colleges. It applies normal insolvency procedures to colleges. At present it is not clear whether or how colleges are covered by existing insolvency law, and the resultant uncertainty is bad for colleges and for students. The Bill will remove the uncertainty for all parties by putting in place a regime that allows for an orderly process in the very unlikely event of a college becoming insolvent. As I have said, we need to rectify the lack of protection for students. Crucially, chapter 4 of part 2 will put in place a special administration regime that will have the special objective of minimising or avoiding disruption to the studies of existing students at affected colleges. These measures will ensure that students can be protected if a college becomes insolvent.
As I mentioned earlier, the current programme of area-based reviews is already putting the sector on a sustainable financial footing for the future. Part of the review process is to encourage colleges to consider needs and provision locally. That will help to ensure that the right provision is available in the right places. The proposed insolvency regime and technical education measures also require certain delegated powers, and we will be providing more information about those to the House before the Bill goes into Committee.
Part 3 of the Bill, the title of which is “Further education: information”, includes a measure to amend existing legislation to ensure that, after the devolution of further education functions and the adult education budget to a combined authority, FE providers and others will continue to submit relevant information to the national data system. This will ensure the continued availability of relevant data that are needed to make intelligent and strategic policy decisions about investment in further education.
Six years ago, we inherited a system from Labour in which too many young people—often those from the most disadvantaged backgrounds—left school or college without the skills and qualifications that they needed to build a successful future. Our wide-reaching reforms have had a transformational effect on the education system in this country, and it is important that we now build on the work of my two immediate predecessors in this role, my right hon. Friends the Members for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove) and for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan).
We know that there is still so much more to do, which is why we are doubling free childcare for working parents of three and four-year-olds to 30 hours a week. We are also working hard to put our first-class universities on an even stronger footing so that they can continue to compete with the very best in the world. We are starting work on opportunity areas to ensure that the education system as a whole can work better to drive social mobility in those parts of the country where it has been stalled for generations, and we have doubled the previous Labour Government’s spending on school places and set out plans to make more good and outstanding school places available to more families all over the country.
The newly broadened remit of the Department for Education, with skills and further education back under one roof alongside schools, gives us an exciting opportunity to build on the excellent work that has already been done over the past six years, both in FE and in the wider education sector. In the end, education underpins how this Government want to create a country that works for everyone so that, irrespective of their background, people can get the skills that they need to take advantage of the opportunities in our country. This is not only good for individuals, but will ensure that we have the skills that our businesses and our economy need so that we can drive up prosperity across the country. The Bill will allow us to take the next steps to give the technical and further education route the status and the spotlight it deserves so that it can flourish as a genuine, high-quality alternative to the academic route, and one that leads to successful careers for those who choose to pursue it. I commend the Bill to the House.
Angela Rayner (Ashton-under-Lyne) (Lab)
I start by associating myself with the well-wishes for the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles).
The Opposition do not intend to oppose the Bill’s Second Reading, but many questions remain for the Government to answer during its passage. We accept that the provisions on insolvency are necessary, but their necessity is a sad reflection on the circumstances facing providers under this Government. Further education helps 4 million people a year, playing a vital role in giving our young people the skills they need and supporting older learners into retraining and learning new skills. Since 2010, however, the sector has suffered a real-terms budget cut of 14%. I am sure that the Secretary of State will have seen the National Audit Office report on “Overseeing financial sustainability in the further education sector” and will know that 110 colleges had recorded an operating deficit by 2013-14—more than double the number that had done so in 2010, when her party took office—and that the number of colleges judged by the Skills Funding Agency to have inadequate financial health has more than doubled. However, in the face of that financial crisis, the Government’s solution is not the investment that the sector needs, but is simply a way to sweeten the bitter pill of insolvency.
I needed a second chance at education, and many of my Opposition colleagues have experienced the transformative effect that technical and further education can have on young people’s lives and on learners at all stages in their lives. That is why the Opposition see the Bill as a missed opportunity. Britain needs a highly skilled, highly trained workforce to succeed in the economy of the future, particularly following Brexit and given the productivity gap that we face.
Rob Marris
Does my hon. Friend share my bemusement at the Secretary of State standing before the House this afternoon extolling the transformational—that was the adjective she used—changes brought about by her Government and the previous coalition Government and extolling the high-quality work that has been done? Does my hon. Friend share my bemusement that, despite apparently hordes more skilled workers as a result of the changes introduced by this Government and the previous Government, this country’s productivity is still absolutely rubbish? If technical and further education were so fantastically transformed, productivity would have improved a whole lot, but it has not.
Angela Rayner
I absolutely agree that this Government have done nothing to provide technical skills. Colleges have faced dramatic budget cuts. It is audacious for Ministers to stand at the Dispatch Box and say what they have done when they have failed. In fact, the Government included the word “technical” in the Bill only as an add-on—it was not there in the first place.
I would be the first to say that an excellent academic education must be provided to all pupils from all backgrounds, but given that many will not go to university, other educational routes remain vital. That is why it is so important that further education is put on a sustainable financial footing. It is not too late for the Government to do that and to bring forward the changes that the sector needs. Next week, the Chancellor will stand at the Dispatch Box and deliver his first autumn statement. The Government could take that opportunity to ensure that the hundreds of millions of pounds that has been cut from the further education sector since 2010 are reinvested in colleges across Britain, in our future and in our best and most valuable asset: the people.
The Secretary of State could get the Chancellor to bring back the education maintenance allowance, which helped hundreds of thousands of young people from low and middle-income backgrounds to stay in education. The Institute for Fiscal Studies confirmed that the EMA represented value for money for the taxpayer, boosted the rates of young people staying in education and improved attainment. I fear, however, that we will be left disappointed once again. After all, this Government have struggled to match warm words with policy when it comes to education.
James Berry
The hon. Lady is listing a litany of failures, but would she like to take this opportunity to welcome the massive boost in apprenticeships, which I am sure many of her constituents, like mine, have enjoyed?
Angela Rayner
I will come on to that, because although I welcome some of the Government’s proposals on the Institute for Apprenticeships, some of the substance is lacking—let’s be honest, it is not in the Bill. The Government have struggled to match their warm words, and were planning to push ahead with cuts to apprenticeship funding that would have been devastating to those in disadvantaged areas. It was only the concentrated opposition in this House, led by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South (Gordon Marsden) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), along with many other Labour Members, that forced the Government to do a U-turn.
Angela Rayner
I will make progress and let the hon. Gentleman in again later.
Even then, the Government did not announce new investment, nor did they abandon the cuts. Instead, cuts of 40% have become cuts of 20%, and cuts of 50% have become cuts of 30%. So although we welcome the Institute for Apprenticeships, now to be renamed the “Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education”, we are concerned that changing the name is the extent of the progress made in the Bill. For example, there is no role for apprentices or learners on the institute’s board. First, the Government gave us an office for students with no students, and now we get an Institute for Apprenticeships with no apprentices. There is no inclusion of further education providers, colleges, universities, the relevant trade unions or local authorities either, and I cannot help but wonder whether anyone in the sector will actually be allowed on the board. Despite that, we have long welcomed the institute in principle, as the body to implement a plan to improve both the quality of apprenticeships, and access to and participation in them. We will now have the institute, but where is the plan? Why is there so little mention of the institute’s need for a strategy to promote participation among care leavers, learners from black, Asian and minority ethnic backgrounds, and learners with disabilities? Why have the Government not used the Bill as an opportunity to enshrine in law the recommendations of the Maynard review on apprenticeship accessibility? We simply know too little of the Government’s plans for what the institute will do, and how it will help providers and students in the years to come.
However, that is not really a surprise. After all, the Government do not seem to know what the capacity of the institute will be. In a recent written answer, the Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills said:
“We are currently developing the detailed structure of the Institute for Apprenticeships, and therefore we are not yet able to set out initial staff numbers”.
So the Secretary of State and the Minister can come to this House with a Bill to set up this institute, but they cannot tell us how it will be structured, staffed or operated. We can only hope that the institute will fare better than every other body this Government have set up to help them deliver their policies in further education.
Tristram Hunt
Is my hon. Friend also aware that the Minister for School Standards, having said at the Dispatch Box that the royal college of teaching was up and running and had full Government support, has said in answer to my parliamentary questions that there have been no meetings with the Secretary of State, no meetings with Ministers of State, and no effective funding? The royal college of teaching is something we should all support in this House, and I would hope those on the Treasury Bench were behind it. [Interruption.] That is what the parliamentary answers said.
Angela Rayner
I will be interested to see what the Secretary of State has to say about that. I find it absolutely shocking—
Angela Rayner
Absolutely shocking. We have seen the Skills Funding Agency lose nearly half of its staff since 2011, and we have seen continued and accelerating decline in the staffing of the National Apprenticeship Service and the UK Commission for Employment and Skills. Of course, all those bodies were threatened with further cuts under the “BIS 2020” project, which was overseen by McKinsey for the former Secretary of State. We found out about the details of that not from any ministerial statement, but through internal documents leaked to my hon. Friends the Members for Sheffield, Heeley (Louise Haigh) and for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) in April. Perhaps the Secretary of State can take the opportunity today to clarify that that process is no longer ongoing, and what her plans are for the staffing of bodies transferred from the former Department.
Given that businesses will contribute to the apprenticeships programme through the levy, it would help if the Minister reassured them that they will not be short-changed or end up just paying in to cover for cuts rather than for a genuinely new and improved level of service. As welcome as the institute is, there is concern that it will not deliver if it is not resourced for the job. With all the challenges facing the further education sector today, with the hundreds of millions of pounds of funding lost, and with the sky-rocketing number of providers facing deficits or requiring direct intervention of the Government, now is the time for radical action to ensure that our further education sector is able to continue on a sustainable footing in years to come.
James Berry
The hon. Lady could at least welcome the apprenticeship levy, which her party considered so radical that it would not even include it on its platform for the last election.
Angela Rayner
It is always a pleasure to take an intervention from the hon. Gentleman. I will come on to that point.
I have no doubt that the Secretary of State read the same National Audit Office report that I did on the growing financial crisis in further education. It was that report that recommended the creation of an insolvency regime. That recommendation is in the Bill, but it would be alarming if that were the only response on offer. The Secretary of State seems to be aware that dozens of providers are reaching crisis point, but instead of deciding that something needs to be done about it, she seems to think that we should be helping that process along. While Labour Members call for investment, Government Members offer insolvency.
This Bill offered the Government an opportunity to improve the situation faced by providers and students. Instead, they seem content with managed decline. We should make no mistake that the decline of a sector that helps more than 4 million people every year will fail not only them, but the needs of our economy and society as a whole. For that reason, I urge the Secretary of State to look again at the opportunities that may have been missed in this Bill. We will not oppose the Bill tonight, but we will most certainly seek to improve it.
Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)
It is a pleasure to contribute to this debate. I very much welcome the Bill and pay tribute to the ministerial team who are rightly focusing on providing opportunity for all. I speak as somebody who went to a school that was bottom of the league table in Worcestershire and who employed many young people in the 10 years that I ran a business. I recognise the absolute importance of equipping all young people, regardless of background, with the necessary skills to fulfil their potential in their working lives.
I wish to focus on a very narrow part of the Bill, which is to do with the opportunities for young disabled students, particularly on the apprenticeship programme. Typically in this country, non-disabled people have an 80% chance of being employed. If a person has a disability, that figure drops to 48%, which is still up 4% on 2010—an extra half a million more disabled people in work. If a person has a learning disability, they would typically have only a 6% chance of having meaningful and sustainable careers. All Governments of all political persuasions have tried their very best to look at different initiatives and different programmes to try to boost that figure, but, by and large, it has stuck rigidly at 6%, and we all desperately want to see huge improvements in that area.
I had the pleasure of visiting Foxes Academy near Bridgwater. It has taken over a former working hotel and takes on young adults with learning disabilities in a three-year programme. For those first two years, their time is split between learning about independent living, slowly progressing up the floors of the hotel as they become more independent, and more skilled and confident. They learn real-life tangible skills within the hotel, which can be transferred to local employers in the restaurant trade, the care homes and other local hotels. On this visit, I was absolutely staggered to see that, at the end of that three-year course, 80% of those students—not 6%—remain in work. That was because of that three-year, constructive and patient approach to learning to give them those skills. They spent the final third year in supported training with local employers, patiently being taught the skills that are needed. It was no surprise that those employers, having invested in training and support, were then keen to keep on those young adults.
I was so impressed that I invited people from the academy to come to see me in Parliament when I was Minister for Disabled People. I asked them why we could not have one of those projects in every town. They said that in the first two years they could take on as many students as they could fit in the hotel, but the challenge was the cost of the supported training in the third year. I said, “Well, surely this is just an apprenticeship by another name. Why can’t we call it an apprenticeship? You can access the funding for the Government’s commendable pledge to have 3 million more apprentices by the end of this Parliament.” They said, “We can’t, because most of our students wouldn’t get the grade C in maths and English that is the typical entry requirement to access an apprenticeship.”
We agreed that we would look into this as a matter of urgency and I met my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), who was the skills Minister at the time. He shared with me that he thought this was both a frustrating situation and a real opportunity to make a difference. We commissioned my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), alongside my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris), my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan), Scope, Mencap and many other experienced colleagues, to look at what we could do. As part of this Maynard review—we only gave him three and a half weeks, as we had a suspicion that my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford and I might no longer be in a position to sign things off after that, and it is a credit to him that he rushed it through—they identified that if we made an exemption for those with a learning disability, we could offer real, tangible opportunities for those young people through the apprenticeship programme. I am delighted that the Government have been so positive in welcoming that. In the Minister’s closing remarks, I would be keen to hear what steps need to be taken for this to happen, how quickly we can do this and how we can advertise it to local employers.
The other key lesson was that there were many local employers who were willing to engage and offer that opportunity. They were not doing that to tick a box, or as a favour because they wanted to feel good. They did it because these young adults, after patient training, proved to be excellent employees who would stay with their organisation year after year. I was sent photographs of many of these young adults on their first steps into a career, and every one of them had a huge beaming smile because of their pride in having the opportunity to work. They were not always full time—some were part time—but they felt proud, as did their parents.
I have one other slight request, to do with university technical colleges. I am very proud that Swindon has its own UTC; I am a huge fan. In fact, our party launched its election manifesto from the Swindon UTC, which mixes modern technology and Swindon’s proud railway heritage in one wonderful, fantastic building.
UTCs could go much further if entry was at the beginning of secondary school, not at 14. I have talked to many of those students and they chose to go there not always because it was the right route for them but because they were unhappy in their secondary school. I have also talked to people who should have gone to the UTC and have a natural aptitude for the courses it offers—in higher engineering or computer programming; in the sorts of roles in which we have desperate skills shortages in this country—but who were already settled in their secondary schools with lots of friends. They did not want to break away from that, so they missed out on taking advantage of the opportunity of going to a UTC. If we could change the entry age to the traditional entry age for secondary school, UTCs would compete on an even footing and those who would most benefit from this opportunity would be more likely to take it.
Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that as well as talking to young people about the time at which they can enter the UTC, parental knowledge is important in influencing that choice? The lack of information for parents, particularly from many local authorities, stops the progress of the UTCs.
Justin Tomlinson
I thank the hon. Lady for making that important point. When we talk to the heads of UTCs, they say that one of the biggest challenges is that secondary schools, when seeking to recruit students, go into neighbouring primary schools and get involved in assemblies, have displays and make contact with parents. The primary schools work with those secondary schools to advertise those opportunities, but, obviously, UTCs are seeking to take students away from secondary schools—and with those pupils comes the funding—so the secondary schools are not always receptive to opening their doors and saying, “Look, there’s an alternative. Why not take the funding that follows you to another organisation?” If we put it back on an even footing by having the same entry point as secondary schools, primary schools will be able to engage with those parents and provide those opportunities.
UTCs are training those young adults with the skills we very much need, and we need to do far more to get businesses to support UTCs by providing mentoring, work experience and expertise. Too many local businesses are not yet up to speed with the great links they can get with UTCs. If they invest early in those students, they will be their next generation of staff. We can use things like the business rates mailer—all businesses, whether they like it or not, will get one every year—to send out information about apprenticeships and UTCs. Local businesses will then know that by investing a little time and support they can help to fill those skills gaps in the future.
I welcome the Bill, which is a positive step in the right direction to deliver opportunity for all.
Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab)
It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson).
I do not see many exciting opportunities arising from the UK’s decision to exit the European Union, but if we are feeling optimistic, as I always try to be, a rebalancing of educational provision and opportunity is one of the elements that we need to look to as we think about a new political economy for the United Kingdom, and part of that has to be a more effective technical and vocational education system.
In his great work “Our Kids”, which I urge the Secretary of State to read if she has not already done so, Robert Putnam charts the decline of social mobility in rust belt America, hinting at what has happened in recent days. He is clear that if people are interested in tackling inequality and promoting social mobility, the two areas to focus on in respect of Government provision are high-quality early years support and an excellent system of technical and vocational education. Those are the two elements that really make a difference in terms of inequality.
Kelvin Hopkins
My hon. Friend mentioned Brexit. Since the referendum, the pound has depreciated to a much more sensible level, such that manufacturing is starting to grow. Does he agree that it is vital that as manufacturing returns to its previous strength, as we hope it will, we have a good technical education system so that we can provide industry with all the skills it needs?
Tristram Hunt
I knew I would not get away with my Brexit comment with my hon. Friend sitting there. Yes, we need to provide the human capital to revive our manufacturing industry and to make sure that we succeed, but in the modern era of manufacturing, with components coming from across the single market, we are going to take a hit on inflationary pressure in relation to some of the manufacturing competitors—
Tristram Hunt
But we are not going to go down that road too quickly.
I welcome large parts of the Bill. It is good to see the focus on technical and vocational qualifications. I pay tribute to the work of Lord Sainsbury, and in so doing alert the House to what is in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. He has been a passionate supporter of technical and vocational education, and his time as science Minister taught him that one of the blocks for achieving excellence in British science was making sure that we have not just top-flight research chemists, physicists and biologists, but high-quality technicians in our science-based industries. We are not producing those level 4 or 5 qualified technicians who are fundamental to the success of the science base.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West (Rob Marris) pointed out, productivity and economic growth demand that we invest more effectively in technical and vocational education. We should also see it as an opportunity. The Edge Foundation has shown time and again that we are going to see a huge growth in jobs in science, engineering and technology, and we need to provide the professionals to fulfil those opportunities. Much of our education system works against that. Whether we think of Progress 8, EBacc or the Ofsted inspection requirements, we have on the one hand a demand for an education system almost on the model that the British set up in Germany to provide our technical and vocational system, and on the other hand every element of incentive in our education system working strongly against that.
I am excited by the addition of the technical component to the Institute for Apprenticeships. I urge the apprenticeships Minister to visit the institutes of technical education in Singapore, which are doing a phenomenal amount on cutting-edge technical and vocational education, as that economy, too, begins to think about the kind of provision it needs to fill the skills gap and about the very demanding requirements on the sector.
My reservations are as follows. First, having the divide at 16 is a missed opportunity. My passion in the next few years will be to see whether we can create a consensus in this House on committing ourselves to ending GCSEs by 2025 and to getting rid of a school leaving qualification for people who do not leave school. We should strip out an examination that is an anomaly across Europe and America and that is not providing our education system with the academic or technical, vocational learning it requires. I urge the House to think much more creatively and imaginatively about having a 14-to-19 framework that includes an academic baccalaureate and a technical baccalaureate. That would get over some of the criticisms levelled at the Bill about having too narrow a focus on educational provision from 16 to 19. A broadly constituted baccalaureate between 14 and 19 would work, so I urge the Secretary of State to think big and to set up some kind of bipartisan thinking about how we—in exactly the same way that countries such as Singapore and Finland manage their education systems—can reach a national consensus in a decade that the GCSE model, having served its time, is no longer necessary. The introduction of differing pathways at 16 in the Bill is interesting, but I urge us to think now about how we put that upstream and have some of those differing pathways from 14 to 19.
Secondly, following on from my comments to my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol South (Karin Smyth), careers guidance is so important in this. When we think about accessing UTCs or further education colleges, having decent and effective careers guidance is really significant. The last Secretary of State had a clever plan —a sort of careers guidance and business thing—that was going to work. I do not know what has happened to it, or whether it is coming under review by the new Secretary of State, and I more than accept that there was no great golden age of careers guidance, but if we want technical and vocational education to work, we must have effective careers guidance. We have to make sure that parents and young people not only have the career immersion in primary school, but have effective careers guidance early on in secondary. That is the way they can access FE and UTC provision.
Thirdly, the Secretary of State valiantly defended retakes for English and maths GCSEs. I want English and maths to continue in education until 18, but—I see this in my constituency, and I think colleagues see it in theirs—young people are retaking and retaking GCSEs on a highly academic syllabus, which the right hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove) introduced. We can debate its merits, but it is really not useful or effective in terms of young people’s career pathways. What these young people need is a good level 2 post-16 qualification that gives them the English and maths skills they need, but does not give them an academic syllabus that they do not necessarily require. I am all for people pursuing the academic pathway, just as much as the technical, vocational pathway, but if we are forcing them to do that at great expense, and causing them to be frustrated about their learning, that is one element of the previous Secretary of State’s system that the current Secretary of State might want to think about.
When it comes to technical and vocational education, we create a lot of institutions: UTCs, FE institutions and career colleges. As I understand it, UTCs were not part of the FE review, so we have divided up the review of further education colleges without taking account of UTC provision, even though there is a lot of crossover between UTCs and further education colleges. In Sheffield, for example, the further education college sponsors the UTC. If the Secretary of State is looking for savings, overprovision and institution-building are prevalent in the English education system, and a bit of co-ordination among those institutions would be a good idea.
That leads me to my final point, which is that the best way to achieve that aim is to devolve educational provision. We are beginning to devolve skills policy to combined authorities and directly elected mayors, but we need to think much more creatively about devolving schools policy to directly elected mayors and combined authorities. The needs of the Cornish economy are different from the needs of the Birmingham economy, which are different from the needs of the Northumbria economy. If we devolve some of the authority to a local level, we will end up with a more effective technical and vocational education system.
I admire some of the principles in the Bill, and I admire the direction of travel, as we now say. I urge the Secretary of State, as she begins to think big, to push this upstream and think about the 14-to-19 technical and vocational pathways.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
It is a pleasure to speak in this debate. I am going to talk about the local experience of further education in Kent. I welcome the independent report of the panel, chaired by Lord Sainsbury, that conducted an important review into the post-16 skills system. The panel was right to advise on improvements that could be made, as the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt) has just said. Improvements were needed after flaws were spotted following changes made in the last Parliament. The system is over-complex, with a confusing array of courses and qualifications that are insufficiently linked to the world of work and the needs of employers. Lord Sainsbury and the Government were right to accept the panel’s recommendations in July 2016 and publish a post-16 skills plan setting out their vision.
The proposals are about boosting technical education to make sure that it is of high quality and responds to employer needs, and the introduction of a new insolvency regime to protect students’ interests. Such things matter. In Kent, we have long had a problem with an institution that has variously been called K College and South Kent College. It suffered from debt problems and, frankly, ate principals. The problems were so deep-set that every now and again the principal would be sacked and the college would be renamed, but the whole thing would continue. The fundamental problems were the big debt overhang and the teaching of courses that employers did not want—courses that did not have the relevance to learners that is completely necessary. That is why the focus on good-quality technical education and information sharing between colleges and local authorities is so important. It is important for everyone—local authorities, employers and educationists—to work together and make a good job of it, because when they do so, learners benefit.
K College finally collapsed in a heap of debt, and it had to be sorted out during the last Parliament. It basically had to be broken up. Part of it was taken over by Hadlow College and part of it by East Kent College. We were able to reset and restabilise the whole situation, but doing so was difficult and took a long time. There was no real process for doing so, because there was no proper insolvency reconstruction mechanism. That is why this Bill is important. It will put in place a proper process, rather than haphazardly trying to make everything work and gluing it all together, and it will ensure that there is a focus on the kinds of skills that learners need.
In my constituency, the East Kent College campus in Dover was threatened with closure as part of the reconstruction. I fought against that for the very simple reason that many people have a low capital base, low household wealth and low aspiration, and they simply would not travel further out of Dover for skills education. That is a real concern, and we made the case for keeping the Dover campus because the skills it taught were more in keeping with the jobs available in the local economy.
The most important thing we can all do for our young people and our learners is to provide ladders in life—to raise the bar of aspiration and to tell people, “You can succeed and achieve, and you can do really well in life. If you go to college and learn some skills, you will do better, and you will achieve and succeed.” The most important thing to do, particularly for this Conservative Government who are so committed to the new meritocracy, is to allow people to climb ladders in life at any time.
Much has been said about whether we should have skills education from 14, 16 or 19, but we need skills education to be available at any point in life. We need the ladder to descend at any time. Many people with a difficult home life are not able to achieve and succeed in the usual exams—in school at 16, with A-levels at 18 or for a degree course at 21—and many people who have simply been slow to grow up have spent their teenage years less formatively than they might have done and with people who have not necessarily been a good influence on them. For those who have had such a life, but who suddenly wake up at 21 and 25, a ladder should descend for them to climb. Skills education is not just about the teenage years, but about lifelong learning because everyone should be able to climb the ladder of prosperity and success at any time.
For me, it was important to make sure that we kept the Dover campus of K College, which is now part of East Kent College, and to make the case for a new FE college in Deal—I also represent Deal—which suffers from so many of the same issues of low aspiration. In such ways, we can raise the bar and give people greater aspiration and life chances. That will enable them to find it easier to climb the ladders in their home communities —to get more skills and get better-paid jobs in the areas in which they live—without having to move away, as so many do. I am very passionate about such things, because we need more further and technical education in our towns, particularly coastal towns such as Dover and Deal, which too often suffer from less aspiration than they should.
I feel very strongly that we must focus on and do more about building an aspiration nation, with such ladders in life and life chances, and with proper processes for when things go wrong. That is why I think the Bill is fundamentally a good thing.
Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke). It is a rare treat for us to agree on something, but I did find myself shouting, “Hear, hear” about his comments on adult education. All of us in the House would applaud that, but I urge him to look at what has happened to adult education during the past six years, because I am afraid that that ladder has been well and truly kicked away for many of the people wanting to get such skills later in life.
It is also a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt). I entirely agree with much of what he said, especially about how we should tackle some of the deep-rooted causes of inequality and of the lack of social mobility in this country. To the issues he raised about the quality of early years education, which is so critical, and technical and vocational education, which we are discussing today, I would only add that we need enough quality teachers teaching all our children, but especially the most disadvantaged.
It is worth pondering for a moment, if you do not mind, Madam Deputy Speaker, that we should have been in the Chamber this evening to discuss a different education Bill—the education for all Bill, which was going to force all good and outstanding schools to become academies against their wishes. The Technical and Further Education Bill was only meant to be a small part of the bigger education for all Bill. I am glad we are not discussing that Bill, because it would have been a terrible mistake to force good and outstanding schools, against their wishes, to become academies, when we simply do not have the capacity, oversight and accountability in the system to tackle such a change. We all have to admit that in its place, we are left with a much-reduced education Bill. None the less, it contains some important principles, as others have said. I welcome the extra focus on post-16 vocational and technical education and the extra support the Government are giving it. As my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central said, we should all welcome the direction of travel.
I want to raise a couple of issues with the unintended consequences of the Sainsbury review and how it is being implemented, including through measures in the Bill. I worry about the idea that, at 16, someone should choose either an entirely technical education or an entirely academic education. That is more akin to the grammar school era of the 1950s and ’60s than today’s world of work and modern economy. Most of the jobs that we need today and will need in the future involve a blended mix of academic and vocational education. They require general applied qualifications, where those two streams come together. As many Members have commented, that is exactly what the best university technical colleges and further education colleges provide—highly academic and highly technical education alongside one another.
Peter Kyle
My hon. Friend mentioned joint pathways being undertaken by the same further education institutions. She might like to know that the secondary school where I am chair of governors has a construction academy attached to the main academy. We do everything from elite sport right through to construction and vocational pathways. It is all prestige and all rooted in academic and vocational attainment, all under one roof. We can do it from the beginning right through to further education.
Lucy Powell
I thank my hon. Friend for that excellent intervention. It sounds like just the sort of institution we should explore further and support.
As I said, many of the jobs that we need today and will need in the future require both types of education. The pathways into professions such as nursing, engineering, health and social care and many more require a blend of general applied and academic education, as well as technical and vocational education. That will be especially true in post-Brexit Britain, where the supply of such workers is likely to be reduced further, particularly in nursing, social care, health and engineering. Closing down those pathways at this point in time could have serious unintended consequences.
It is a well-trodden pathway for people to go to university to study nursing, health and social care or engineering with an applied general academic qualification and some technical BTEC qualifications alongside it. That pathway is highly regarded by universities. We should be careful about closing down that pathway, because if Ministers look they will see that the vast majority of the tens of thousands of undergraduates who come into the system through that route have that blended mix of academic and vocational qualifications.
Rob Marris
My hon. Friend is making a powerful case. We need to think about technical education not just for the jobs of tomorrow, but for the jobs of the day after tomorrow. I am considerably older than her and my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) is a little older than me. When he entered the workforce, let alone when I did decades ago, many skilled jobs existed that do not exist now, such as in printing. Typesetting basically does not exist now. The world has changed and we have to equip the coming generation with not only the skills they need now, but the flexibility to adapt to what the workforce will look like, inasmuch as we can foretell that, in the next 30 years.
Lucy Powell
My hon. Friend makes a great point, although I do not want to get into the relative ages of Members here. But I look at my own children and think of the world of work ahead of them. We perhaps have an old-fashioned view of jobs such as engineering—engineers come in all shapes and sizes now, from digital engineers, sound engineers and construction engineers to the other types of engineer that we may know about. A key issue with the productivity gap we are facing in this country is the problem we have in applying technology and technological advances in small and medium-sized companies.
I want children from Manchester Central to have exactly those types of skills; they will therefore need literacy, numeracy and other academic qualifications but also education in digital engineering and many other technical areas. The combination of the two will be the route for so many, and for all jobs in the future—I firmly believe that. I look at my own son, who I think will want to be an engineer one day; he is highly technically able—he has great skills there—but is highly academic as well. I want him to have the option to do both right through till 18.
The Minister seems to recognise the issue here, as he has recently the launched degree-level apprenticeship scheme, which I welcome. However, the tiny numbers involved in that scheme can in no way make up for the tens of thousands already going through the university vocational pathway. I hope that he is not falling foul of the same ideological dogma that his colleague the Minister for Schools and a previous Secretary of State for Education perhaps fell for in trying to cut away entirely the university professional pathway into teaching. As the Minister will know, that has in no small part caused the recruitment crisis in the teaching profession; stripping away the university pathway to teaching has meant that teacher supply is now at crisis point. I know the Minister, and so know that he is a lot more pragmatic than some of his colleagues; I urge him to watch the situation carefully, and make sure that these well-trodden routes—both academic and vocational—into professions remain very much open for our young people.
I will touch on a couple of other points that have already been raised. My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central raised resits. I concur with him entirely. We have to look again at the enforcing of required resits post 16. In many cases, less than 50% of children are passing those GCSEs the second time around. Many FE and post-16 institutions are struggling to get in the teaching skills needed to get children through GCSEs, as that is not something they are used to doing. The size and nature of the maths and English curricula make them increasingly difficult for some children to pass, and they are not necessary for the types of careers those children may want to go on to.
Like my hon. Friend, I entirely support the notion that children should do English and maths right through to the age of 18, but the Minister should clarify what will be required for resits. Will it be a level 4 or a level 5? I understand that it is a level 4 this year and next year, and will then go to level 5. We do not know what is happening; never mind parents and children, what are employers to make of that?
Finally, we should not have this debate without looking at the international comparisons for our funding levels for 16-to-19 education in this country. We compare really badly with our OECD competitors: we do well in terms of funding from five to 16, but then there is a significant dip in per-pupil funding. After that, funding goes through the roof for those who make it to higher education. We need a better and more consistent funding stream. The transformation we need in this area will be achieved only when we couple this sort of reform with funding.
Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)
For too long, technical and vocational education has been seen as the poor relation to academic education, so I welcome the Secretary of State’s commitment, in her speech last week, to bring the “same lens and focus” to the technical education routes that most people follow. Perhaps more than many hon. Members, I know the importance of technical education because my constituency sends fewer of its young people to higher education than any other, although we have a lot of young people in further education and on apprenticeships. That is the genesis of my interest in, and passion for, this issue and the Bill.
I want the Government to succeed with their ambitious target of 3 million apprenticeships. I also want the Government to succeed with the Bill because I believe its spirit is well placed. Its basis is sound, too, and I welcome the fact that it aims to deliver the recommendations of the Independent Panel on Technical Education, chaired by Lord Sainsbury, but—it is important for an Opposition party to have a “but”—I am concerned about a number of issues. I want the Bill to work for the people of Bristol South, so I want to use this contribution to seek some clarity from the Government.
The Institute of Apprenticeships and Technical Education will have a huge remit. I support its aims and will help to support its success, but I would like more detail about how it will deliver its remit in such a short timescale, especially as the Institute for Apprenticeships is currently operating without a permanent chief executive. As a member of the Public Accounts Committee, which looked at proposals for apprenticeships, I believe that there is a danger that the reform could suffer if the new institute’s remit also includes sweeping changes to technical education. Will the Minister assure us that such fears are groundless and that the institute’s “lens and focus” will remain rigorous?
As the Secretary of State acknowledged last week, the way in which we as a country help young people to fulfil their potential and use their talents will become more important than ever in post-Brexit Britain. My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt) considered the positives that Brexit might bring in this area, but they will be something of a challenge. We all know that in any period of change and transition there is a danger of focusing only on future beneficiaries and neglecting those already in the system, especially if the existing system is flawed. I would therefore like assurances that my constituents who are going through the system will not lose out in the transition to the new framework.
It is important to consider those who stand to gain in the future: young people who are currently in school, and their parents and carers who want to help them to navigate and plan for their futures. What are the Government doing to ensure that those who will encounter the new system receive the guidance and advice they need now so that they will not lose out when the new frameworks and assessments are introduced? My concern stems from a number of new provisions, particularly in relation to university technical colleges. Parents are not involved in these discussions. As a parent of three boys in secondary school, it has been eye-opening to find out how little information gets to parents and how little we understand about the future of our own young people. We cannot allow those who lack the necessary prior knowledge to navigate the system to flounder, so will the Government please provide proactive support and guidance? How will they do that?
I take issue with the idea in the Bill that employers should be at the heart of the system. Surely it is students—young people themselves—whose interests must be at the heart of any Bill that seeks to improve their opportunities.
On social mobility, I have explained that my constituents’ interest in this matter runs deep, not least due to our low take-up of higher education, but there is more to it than that. I welcome the introduction of the 15 vocational pathways but, given that I represent a constituency in which 80% of apprentices are on schemes with the lowest wage differentials, I want to know how the Government will ensure that young people are doing vocational training, including apprenticeships, in the right areas, and that that training gives them greater earning potential and more career opportunities.
I also want to know how young people will access opportunities in areas where local providers struggle to improve quality, alongside dealing with their financial difficulties. As the Minister is aware, the Public Accounts Committee has looked closely at the sustainability of the FE sector and how apprenticeships can work when providers are struggling. Some of the 15 routes appear to be apprentice-only openings but, as we know, many employers will not countenance taking on a 16-year-old apprentice. Additionally, what careers advice will be available to young people in my constituency to ensure they are best advised on which pathway to follow? I would welcome more clarity on the process for switching between academic and the technical routes, which I raised with the Government last week.
Finally, I appeal to the Government to make the revised system as easy to navigate as possible for young people, and their parents and carers. Much work has been done in recent years to make academic pathways easy to navigate, but we need to take the chance the Bill presents to ensure parity of transparency and ease of navigation for those pursuing this all-important technical route.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
It is a great privilege to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol South (Karin Smyth), who rightly set the Minister a series of challenges around pathways, transparency, equivalency and all those sorts of things. She raised very important issues.
Drawing on the Association of College’s key facts and figures, I will begin by reminding the House of the value of colleges and their contribution to the country. Colleges provide a range of education and training, helping to provide skills and qualifications to students entering the workforce. Colleges educate and train 2.7 million people, including 1.9 million adults, and 744,000 16 to 18-year-olds choose to study in colleges. Almost every general further education college offers apprenticeships, with 306,000 people choosing to take one in a college. Some 153,000 people study higher education in colleges, and students aged 19-plus in further education generate an additional £70 billion for the economy over their lifetimes. It is worth reminding ourselves of the great contribution that colleges make.
I declare an interest as someone who has led a college—back when I had a real job—and therefore knows the nuts and bolts of doing that. John Leggott College in my constituency, which I was privileged to be principal of, is still doing a cracking job locally, as is North Lindsey College, the general FE college. These colleges make a real difference to people’s lives day in, day out. However, the funding challenges that colleges face are very real: a 17% cut in sixth-form college funding since 2011; and a significant squeeze in adult education funding, as my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell) set out earlier.
I have high hopes for the Education Secretary, the first Secretary of State to have been educated in a comprehensive sixth-form college, but when she says that area-based reviews are already putting the sector on a sustainable funding footing for the future, I fear that she is being over-optimistic. The area-based reviews have reported, but nothing has really happened as a result. Indeed, if the funding cuts continue and the autumn statement does not contain a commitment to the 5% increase in college funding that the AOC is calling for, the challenges facing colleges will remain significant. I therefore do not think that area-based reviews will be the cavalry coming over the hill.
We have seen under this Government a plethora of confusion in post-16 provision. Area-based reviews did not look at the new university technical colleges or post-16 provision in schools. We have a complete hotch-potch: free schools, studio schools—a whole mess has replaced the preceding coherence.
I am in favour of university technical colleges where they are needed, but if a college is established as additional capacity in an area that does not need it, that creates much more inefficiency. It is not good enough for the Government to continue to fund such colleges more generously on the basis of estimates rather than real numbers. We see problems in these areas that we all know about as politicians—even in times of austerity, we can fund our pet projects—but it should not be like that, because that lets our young people down.
The insolvency scheme introduced by the Bill is probably not necessary, but we will need to see how it develops. The Sixth Form Colleges Association is concerned that it might create unintended consequences in the way banks lend to the sector, so we need to make sure that the right conversations take place between the Government and the banks. We would not want the policy to make it more difficult for colleges to go about their business.
Let me pick up one or two issues that hon. Members have raised, starting with the debate over GCSE C grades in maths and English, and the matter of functional skills. When I was principal of a college, all our students did either English and maths GCSE, or functional skills. They are both good, solid qualifications, but overall it was the opposite of the holiday postcard: there was a very different feeling from “Wish you were here” in maths and English classes. Thankfully, however, and thanks to great maths and English teachers around the country, the situation has been transformed, and people now do quite well when they resit maths or English post-16. The post-16 sector has always had bespoke qualifications that are appropriate for an older age group studying additional qualifications alongside them, rather than a system of merely repeating what was done at the pre-16 level. I ask the Minister to think carefully about functional skills because it seems that they are being put to one side. If the Minister is going to correct that, it would be very helpful, because that is certainly felt outside this place.
The hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) is pursuing a good campaign on getting apprenticeships for young people with learning challenges, which I support. He cited the example of what is happening in the hospitality sector. My example would be a young constituent who recently contacted me. She has level 2 functional skills, which she achieved with great effort during her time in college. She is now doing a level 3 apprenticeship, but she has been told that she has to get a grade C in English GCSE and that her level 2 functional skills will not count. I hope that the Minister will confirm that he will brush that aside, because that seems like unnecessary repetition for a young person who has worked extremely hard. Instead of following the route suggested by the hon. Member for North Swindon, things seem to be going in the opposite direction, so I encourage the Minister to find ways to address the situation
That brings me to the key point I want to focus on: the nature of applied general qualifications. As my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester Central said, those qualifications are crucial so that young people can work towards the professions and jobs that will be needed when an ever-changing workforce face ever-changing challenges. Paragraph 2.18 of the “Post-16 Skills Plan” states:
“We plan to review the contribution of—
applied general qualifications—
“to preparing students for success in higher education; what part they can play in a reformed system; and the impact any reform would have on the government’s ambitions on widening participation. We will announce our decisions later in the year.”
Well, it is quite late in the year already, and those qualifications are crucial because of the way in which they work. They are combined with other qualifications: a student might study for a BTEC alongside an A-level, for instance. That combination gives students flexibility, enabling them to gain applied general qualifications as well as academic qualifications, and to move forward positively and successfully.
I know from my own experience that those qualifications have allowed young people who might not be suited to a full programme of three A-levels to find a successful model in an area in which they are interested and to which they are committed, with good, strong progression routes. I am anxious for us not to end up, in the course of our entirely proper search for more rigorous and effective technical education, throwing the baby of strong applied general qualifications out with the bathwater.
I know that the Sixth Form Colleges Association has been convening round tables of practitioners and arranging for members of the Department to visit sixth-form colleges to see the good work that is going on there, but I urge the Minister to champion applied general qualifications and the role that they can play for young people in driving up standards and developing progression routes. I hope that he will also give us some idea of when the review mentioned in the skills plan will take place, and when it is likely that a report will be produced.
Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin), who shared with us his professional experience of guiding many young people towards the paths that they need to take. It is a shame that we have not given greater priority to further education in the past, because the skills challenge that we face remains acute, as it has been for a very long time. My hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner), the shadow Minister, shared with us her own rocky path from secondary education to a career and secure work. A number of people find it a difficult path. That is the challenge that the Bill seeks to meet, and many of us are supportive in respect of both the path and the challenge.
I left my school in Bognor Regis—ironically, the constituency of the Minister for School Standards—with almost no usable qualifications. I had to return to secondary school at the age of 25 to obtain the qualifications that I needed in order to return to the education system. I know from first-hand experience that for many young people, the door to education is slammed shut and needs to be broken down. We all tend to assume that the doors to education, and indeed to all our public services, are open all the time. I am very keen to remind Labour Members, as well as others, that doors are often shut and that it is our job to break them open, rather than expecting individuals to remove the barriers to getting the best out of our public services the first time round without waiting for the second.
Kelvin Hopkins
My hon. Friend is making a strong point. Some years ago, funding for adult education at sixth-form colleges was taken away. Excellent teachers and wonderful facilities are no longer used in the evenings, which used to enable adults to go back and take A-levels, for example, and possibly go to university after that. The door was shut very firmly some years ago, and it should be reopened.
Peter Kyle
My hon. Friend makes a good point.
This door being slammed shut, often in the faces of young people who do not have the skills to break it down or a background that encourages them to break it down, is one of the reasons why we have ended up with a society where those who are asset-rich will succeed in life and those who are talent-rich but asset-poor will very often not succeed. That is why it is incredibly important that we get this Bill right. It is of paramount importance for the Government’s plans for technical education, apprenticeships and the apprenticeship levy, which is now only a matter of months away from being launched.
It has long been my view that the levy as currently formatted is too rigid to fully take into account the skills challenges facing our country. When taking evidence on the issue of skills as a member of the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills and as chair of the all-party group on further education and lifelong learning, it became clear that some sectors will struggle with the way the levy is currently formulated. The technology sector, for example, needs to invest very early, right back to the early years. I have visited many technology companies that are investing in nursery and primary education, and in secondary education. It is a sector that needs programming skills, and it needs imagination, flair and creativity in the way that people develop those skills. Often in such sectors post-16 is just too late. I support the apprenticeship levy, but we need to get it right, and if we are not careful we will end up with a perverse incentive in the system whereby technology companies are forced to invest in post-16 education, and in order to pay for it they will be withdrawing their support for pre-16 education, which would be a tragedy for our economy, particularly in the post-Brexit era when we might find that such companies struggle to secure investment and recruits from abroad with the right skills. We are entering tricky territory and we need to get this right first time. On mention of the word “Brexit”, I am very pleased to see my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) is still in his place.
It also concerns me that existing spending on employer-sponsored degrees or graduate schemes will not be recognised by the levy. That risks closing those routes in favour of what could be entry-level apprenticeships in order for companies to get back what they pay for the levy. The Bill creates an institute for apprenticeships that also covers technical education. I want to see that institute play a strong role in ensuring that standards remain high in apprenticeships and technical education. I still have real concerns that the levy, along with the Government’s pledge to have 3 million apprenticeship starts—starts, not completions, I note—risks incentivising a dash for quantity rather than quality.
I listened with great interest to the hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson), who made a fantastic contribution about the role of apprenticeships in providing productive pathways into the workforce for people with disabilities. At a recent surgery I was visited by the mother of a young woman who is trying to apply for an apprenticeship. She has a very specific disability that has always prevented her from succeeding in maths. It is an extremely difficult disability for her to live with, but all through the education system she has been provided with specialist support and allowances that have enabled her to succeed. However, she cannot apply for any apprenticeships because she does not have the maths qualification. She is applying for a dog grooming apprenticeship. It seems absurd to me that she is prevented from taking this incredible pathway into work because of her disability. I have raised this with Ministers in writing, and I hope that in his winding-up speech the Minister will show a willingness to inject a little common sense for those few people who struggle with the current system. Although this has an impact on very few people, it is a profound impact.
I have pressed the previous Secretary of State and the previous Minister for Skills on these matters. I should like to join other Members in wishing the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles) well. He stood as a parliamentary candidate in Hove in the 2005 general election, in which I played a key role in the winning candidate’s campaign. I got to know the hon. Member well at the time, and I say with all sincerity that I and all those who worked on the campaign wish him a very speedy recovery.
I pressed him and the then Secretary of State to introduce a target for the number of apprenticeship starts at level 3 and above, because that is where the training will really address our skills needs. It is nice to know that someone has been reading all the parliamentary questions that I have been submitting on this subject, because the Policy Exchange’s report on apprenticeships, which was released on Friday, calls on the Government to do just that. I hope that the present Minister will take heed of that report. I would support him in embedding targets for quality as well as quantity in the Government’s plans.
I have also pressed the Government to set a target for apprenticeship completions, which I am sure we all agree is the key figure. There is no point in getting 3 million people to start apprenticeships if a significant number of them simply drop out. The Minister has not previously shown any interest in setting a target for completions, but I noted that the Secretary of State was more conciliatory on this point when responding to an intervention today. I hope that means that the door is still open and that such a target will now be considered.
The Institute for Public Policy Research report calls for an assurance that the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education will have the necessary resources and power properly to enforce quality standards. I totally agree with that. Only last week, I asked the Minister for details of the staffing levels for the institute. I hope that we will get clear answers to these questions during the passage of the Bill. Given the imminent closure of the UK Commission for Employment and Skills, which did a great deal of work with employers to utilise labour market information to map out skills gaps and sectoral needs, it is vital that the institute is able to fill that void. If it cannot, we will be much worse off.
The Bill also introduces a new insolvency regime for FE colleges, with the aim of protecting students if such an institution should become insolvent. The Government say that this follows on from the area reviews, which aimed to ensure that all FE colleges within a certain area were on a solid financial footing. In Brighton and Hove, we are lucky to have three excellent colleges: BHASVIC, City College and Varndean College. Our area review, covering Sussex, started last year, but despite an expectation that the final report would be published some months ago, it still has not seen the light of day. I hope the Minister can offer some reassurance to me and my neighbouring MPs, as well as those in other areas who are waiting for their reviews to be published, that they will be released shortly. Providers and students are anxious to know what the future holds for the institutions in which they work and study. In the Budget in March, which feels like a very long time ago, the Government pledged to
“review the gaps in support for lifetime learning, including for flexible and part-time study.”
Will the Minister update us on that, too. When can we expect the results of that study?
I welcome the Bill as a chance to focus on technical and further education, which often feels neglected in the overall educational landscape in this place and beyond. However, the Bill and the Government’s policy priorities leave a lot of questions unanswered, and I hope that the Bill’s passage through Parliament will give us a chance to remedy that.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
It is a great pleasure to speak in the debate and to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Hove (Peter Kyle). He is currently the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on further education and lifelong learning—a job that I had many years ago. I have had a long association with the further education and post-16 sector. I taught in further education more than 40 years ago, and while I was teaching a basic statistics course I discovered that one of the major problems with education in Britain is the poor level of mathematics teaching. The students I taught had difficulty with basic computation, multiplication and division. I found that quite shocking at the time, but the problem has continued.
Some 20 years ago, the great Lord Claus Moser produced a report on numeracy and literacy, finding that more than 50% of the population was functionally innumerate. He illustrated that point by saying that 50% of the population did not understand what 50% meant, which is quite surprising—if not shocking. More recently, I asked the former Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), why we were having to recruit so many qualified engineers from abroad and he said that it was because our mathematics is not good enough to produce sufficient engineers. There is a serious problem.
Rob Marris
Does my hon. Friend agree that part of the problem with mathematics is down to English culture? It is still acceptable for people to say words to the effect of, “Ooh, I don’t do maths,” without that being seen by their interlocutors as an admission of abject failure. It is just seen as a bit of a joke. It is a cultural problem. This is about not only the education system, but our culture, particularly in England. It is appalling.
Kelvin Hopkins
I agree with my hon. Friend, but it is changing and I am optimistic about that. People such as me who are good at maths are regarded as being a bit of a geek, but what is wrong with being good at maths? In the country of Isaac Newton, Isambard Kingdom Brunel and Alan Turing, why should we be ashamed of being good at maths? That is being addressed, but we are still having to recruit thousands of engineers from abroad because people cannot do the maths to become engineers through our education system.
As I said, I taught in further education 40 years ago, but I also spent four years as chair of governors at the then Luton College of Higher Education when we were producing hundreds of qualified engineers doing ONCs, HNCs and then AMIMechEs and so on. They were good engineers and they could do the maths. It may just be that we have declined in some areas because the manufacturing demand is not as great as it was. We are now trying to pick up the manufacturing sector again and we are realising that we have missed out on maths.
I am happy to say that Luton College of Higher Education went on to become the University of Luton and then the University of Bedfordshire. The vice-chancellor is now Bill Rammell, a former colleague in Parliament, and its chancellor is Mr Speaker—the greatest honour of all—and I am absolutely delighted about that. I have also been a governor of the superb Luton Sixth Form College for 25 years. It does brilliant work and gets better and better every year.
Barnfield College is also in my constituency. A dozen or so years ago, it was the first ever general FE college to be given beacon status, but it went into serious decline and wound up almost collapsing into a state of failure a year or two back. It has now been picked up by its great new principal Tim Eyton-Jones and I am sure that it will be revived, but it needs Government support. It should never have been allowed to get into that situation. The neglect of colleges was criminal. Barnfield is now on the up and will be great again, but it needs the active support of Government, particularly in finance.
In Parliament, I was for some years chair of the all-party parliamentary group on further education and lifelong learning—lifelong learning is also important—but I am now chair of the all-party parliamentary group on sixth form colleges and am pleased about that. Colleges in general, FE colleges in particular, have been neglected over decades. Colleges represent an abused sector of education, and one reason for that is that so many people in the political sphere have no connection with further education. They go to posh schools—grammar schools, public schools, whatever—and then to university. Indeed, some become special advisers—a former Spad is in our midst now—and then go into politics never having touched further education or understood what it is about.
Rob Marris
Does my hon. Friend recall the reorganisation of Government Departments in about 2007—sadly under a Labour Government—when the Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills was set up? It took a week for the Government to realise that they had not put further education in either of the two possible Departments.
Kelvin Hopkins
There is another story, which may not be true, about what happened when incorporation was introduced in 1993. When the legislation was going through, the then Education Secretary was asked what was going to happen to sixth-form colleges and he said, “Oh, shall we put them in the FE sector?” It was a last-minute thought just to drop them into that sector. Sixth-form colleges are really schools and had they stayed with the local education authorities, we would by now have a lot more of them because LEAs would never have given away all the sixth-forms from their schools to create new sixth-form colleges because they were a different, independent sector.
Unfortunately, LEAs, and indeed, councillors are possessive about their institutions and do not want to give them away. I have experience of that, because when I was chair of governors of the Luton College of Higher Education, we had a battle royal to get that college into the higher education sector—out of LEA control and into the Polytechnics and Colleges Funding Council. The chief education officer threatened to sack the college principal for pursuing that avenue, and I had to intervene to say to the CEO publicly, “If you sack the principal, you will have me to contend with and I will fight you all the way.” He backed off and we got what became the University of Luton and, subsequently, the University of Bedfordshire. LEAs are, understandably, possessive and they are not going to give away their sixth-forms to move towards sixth-form colleges. Had they done that, our education system would be much better, but that is another story.
Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about people’s understanding or experience of the FE sector, but may I just invite him to reflect on the statement he made a moment or so ago? He said that the Conservative Benches are full of posh boys and girls who went to posh schools. A good four or five of us sitting on the Parliamentary Private Secretary Bench this afternoon paid no fees at all for our education and are products of state school, hard work and good teachers.
Kelvin Hopkins
I thank the hon. gentleman for his intervention, but I think the majority of Members, probably on both sides of this House, have not gone through the further education sector. A small number have, and they understand this, but a high proportion are not very familiar with FE and the vast contribution it makes to our society, in all sorts of ways.
Karin Smyth
I agree with my hon. Friend. I went to an FE college to do my A-levels, but what he is saying applies not just to politicians, but to people in our media, our legal establishment and throughout other walks of life. They do not have experience of going through that sector, which means that it is often the forgotten sector.
Kelvin Hopkins
I agree with my hon. Friend about that, and of course another cultural factor is the fact that we are not aware of things. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West (Rob Marris) says, there is this idea that mathematics is something we do not do; we say, “Oh, I can’t do maths”. People do not boast about how they cannot read. I want to make sure that everybody can read, and we should have adult education to make sure that everyone can. There is a problem with our mathematics, and I invite Ministers and shadow Ministers to visit the wonderful sixth-form college where I am governor to find out how to do things well, because so much that goes on in our college is brilliant.
Lucy Powell
My hon. Friend is making some good points. I did an A-level in not just maths, but further maths. [Hon. Members: “Ooh!”]
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)
Order. The House is going to defend the hon. Lady. We have heard hon. Gentlemen say that this is something about which we should not laugh, and nor should we
Lucy Powell
I find myself feeling how I did during my A-levels, when I was the only girl in the class doing science A-levels—it has taught me well for this place. Does my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) agree that the issue of maths teachers is now a looming crisis in this country? Someone who has a first or a 2:1 in maths is a very desirable potential employee, and therefore the teaching route is just not as attractive as it once was and we are facing a crisis in maths education.
Kelvin Hopkins
My hon. Friend is absolutely right about that. One of the most interesting things about Britain is that we produce more accountants than almost any other country in the world. People who are numerate can become an accountant and with an accountancy qualification they can earn a lot more money than they can by being a teacher. An accountancy friend of mine said years ago, “The reason we have so many accountants in Britain is that we are so bad at maths, we need accountants to do our work for us—our tax returns and so on.” I am digressing.
Oliver Dowden (Hertsmere) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman mentions teaching, and I have been waiting patiently for him to refer to his own experience of teaching at the excellent Oaklands further education college, to which many of my constituents send their children. As a comprehensive-educated special adviser, there I got a lot of experience of the excellent education one can get at a further education college.
Kelvin Hopkins
Indeed. In my day, it was certainly an excellent college and we did our very best.
I keep digressing from the points I am trying to make. One problem we have is that we try to pick up problems in mathematics post-16, in further education—as shown in Alison Wolf’s report—when the real problem is lower down. If someone misses out on maths in primary education, they will have much more serious problems later on. Picking it up later is much harder than picking it up at six, seven, eight or nine. My two granddaughters are studying at a wonderful school, and they are very good at maths. One was doing her long division, or whatever, yesterday, and she got everything right, because they are being well taught now. I hope that that will feed through the system, but it certainly was not the case all those years ago when I was teaching.
At the sixth-form college—I hope that this can happen in FE colleges as well—we are putting massive resources intensively into retakes for GCSE maths. The retake results, as in most places, were appalling until about two years ago; then we introduced a system with extra resource and the best possible teachers and we doubled the pass rate for GCSE retakes. That means that many more youngsters can go off to university or to apprenticeships with a maths qualification at A to C. It can be done, but it is hard work and takes more resource. I hope that the Government will recognise that. If they want to get the maths results up post-16, resource has to be put in. That means recruiting more teachers and ensuring that we have the best teachers teaching maths—people like my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell), who feel comfortable with the subject. Someone who is comfortable with maths is more likely to be a good teacher of maths than someone who feels uncomfortable or who has it as an add-on to something they have been doing elsewhere.
There are many other points I wish to make, but some have been made by my hon. Friends and by honourable colleagues on the Government Benches. The contribution that sixth-form colleges must make to our communities and our economy is vital for our future. If we do not get it right, we will not have the successful future we should have. We will see a declining scientific and technical culture, which we cannot afford. We must ensure that our maths is good and that our maths teaching is good at every level. Picking it up in further education has to be done, even though it is difficult, and I support Alison Wolf and her report, but we have a long way to go to ensure that we catch up with some of those other countries.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
I must declare that I, too, am a comprehensive-educated special adviser from a long time ago, which may be familiar to you, Madam Deputy Speaker. We will move on from that. I spent many years in business, too, and that is why I am pleased to be able to speak in this debate.
Before I get to the meat of my remarks, I want to join my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) and the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) in recognising the important work that FE colleges do throughout the country. In Macclesfield, we have a great principal in Rachel Kay, who is moving things forward. That is great.
There have been lots of interesting developments over the past few months. Following on from Brexit, there has been Trexit—we might want to think what is Nexit—[Hon. Members: “Oh!”] It took a while. It is not clear what will happen, except that it is clear that there are vital lessons we need to learn. One lesson I took away from the referendum campaign and from Brexit was that there was an underlying concern from many people across the country about the impact of immigration.
As I spoke to people during the referendum campaign, it was clear to me that the concern ran deeper than just that. There was a sense of insecurity and a desire for greater security about jobs, work and prospects for the future. Those concerns will not be addressed by changes to immigration policy alone. That is why the Government are right to take a more comprehensive approach, a more comprehensive response, working to enhance an industrial strategy, continuing with welfare reforms, and pressing ahead with plans to address the skills gap that has been too prevalent for far too long. That is why this Bill is so important.
Since being elected in 2010, I have often spoken in the House on the importance of social mobility. I want to see more first-time entrepreneurs, more first-time employers, more first-time exporters and, crucially for those from the most challenging backgrounds, more first-time employees. A strong focus on those four roles, the four E’s, as I call them, and on motivating people to take on those roles, especially for the first time, delivers the key to economic success.
Progress in technical and further education and in apprenticeships is vital for the life chances of those seeking first-time employment. I therefore strongly support the Bill. I support it because it seeks to open clear, defined, aspirational paths to success, and it has the potential to help create much-needed parity of esteem between academic education and technical education, as has been talked about during the debate. That is further evidence that we on the Government Benches are the real workers party and that my right hon. Friend the Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills is at the vanguard of that movement.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)
Order. We cannot have sedentary remarks and remarks from behind the Chair. That is simply impossible.
Lucy Powell
I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to put it on the record that it was I who was speaking from a sedentary position. The Minister is indeed at the vanguard, but the only other discernible member of the Government is the Minister for the Armed Forces, who is standing behind the Speaker’s Chair.
The Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills (Robert Halfon)
May I make a quick point? As the debate has highlighted today, it is quality, not quantity, that counts.
David Rutley
Indeed.
The Bill is timely. After strenuous efforts to stabilise the economy following the financial crisis, the UK faces a new opportunity—and some challenges—in Brexit. If we are to make a success of leaving the EU, it is increasingly urgent that we tackle our long-standing productivity gap compared with other leading economies. The challenge is to upskill the existing and future British workforce. It is interesting that the Chartered Management Institute says that one in four jobs was left vacant in 2015, owing to skills shortages.
Kelvin Hopkins
The hon. Gentleman is right to focus on our poor productivity level, but poor productivity often results from the availability of cheap labour because employers are not forced to invest in modern technology. That is a factor in the equation. Low productivity and low-priced labour are a problem for us.
David Rutley
The Government have already put in place improvements to the national living wage and will do more in that arena. Productivity is about a lot more than wages. From contributions that the hon. Gentleman has made in previous debates, I know that he is fully aware of that, too. The situation is more complicated.
One in four jobs left vacant in 2015 were due to skills shortages. The CBI has found that one in five employers want candidates for jobs who not only have academic qualifications but can demonstrate other skills as well. So the Government must ensure that their efforts to close the skills gap inspire and motivate those who would gain most—those in training and businesses that need their skills. If we are to strive to achieve the greater parity of esteem that we have talked about and to get businesses actively involved in education and training, we need to motivate more young people who are planning to pursue the non-academic track to gain the skills that will transform their lives. Only then will we secure the prize of greater national productivity. Wages have a role to play, but so, increasingly, does motivating young people to want to acquire these skills.
The key to promoting technical training will be the Government’s drive to provide 15 clear routes to 3 million quality apprenticeships. These routes are set out in the post-16 skills plan, which was published in July. It is a strong plan; my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles) deserves real credit for setting it out, and I join the hon. Member for Hove (Peter Kyle) in wishing him a speedy and full recovery from his current health challenges. Those routes—or “occupational categories” as they are called in the Bill—will signpost such sectors as construction, catering and hospitality, and vital ones such as engineering and manufacturing. The obvious, recognisable nature of these categories will give young people the assurance they need that apprenticeships are, and will be, focused on delivering identifiable careers and are relevant to their own fields of vocational interest. Relevance is absolutely key.
Confidence in these routes as genuine career paths can be bolstered only by involving businesses in their design. Fostering links between business and schools, and between business and the rightly reconstituted Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education, has never been more urgent. The Government have taken the initiative in encouraging businesses to step up to the plate and to deliver employer-led technical education that addresses the skills gap. I hope businesses will now seize this opportunity—it is vital that they do.
The Bill should be seen as part of a process of going further in breaking down the barriers between education and business—between school lessons and work experience. I have talked to my right hon. Friend the Minister about this. We need to get more young people out of school and into business, and more businesses into schools and further education. Indeed, schools themselves need to be made more aware of the options for, and the importance of, motivating young men and women in the classroom about wider opportunities to develop skills and career options.
No one in the House wants schools to feel they are being imposed on by the Bill; we want them to recognise the benefits of the Bill for the futures of the young people in their care. It is important to establish, as set out in part 3 of the Bill, an information-sharing relationship between the Department, schools, academies, colleges and other providers. Businesses, too, will need to find it easy to engage with education providers to be motivated to participate. Those relationships will need to be forged—in some cases, from scratch.
Fortunately, there is good practice—from existing schemes to introduce business skills into schools—to learn from and extend. For example, Young Enterprise and Enabling Enterprise provide teachers with opportunities to link up with business, and supply model exercises in flexible, transferable life and work skills. Young Enterprise already has relationships with over 50% of secondary schools. I shall be interested to hear—although this is not directly relevant to the Bill; it relates to the wider issue of what we can do to engage and motivate people—what role my right hon. Friend believes these schemes will play in this vital area of motivating more people.
There is much more that we need to do to close these skills gaps. In South Korea, for example, there is a clear difference between the skills gap among 55 to 65-year-olds, nearly half of whom are low-skilled, and among 16 to 24-year-olds, who have a much higher skills base. In England, however, about 30% of the 16 to 24-year-old age group and the 55 to 65-year-old age group are classified by the OECD as having low skills. It is clear that we are not closing the gap for the different age cohorts, and the Bill will be fundamental in taking that work forward.
My right hon. Friend is absolutely keen to move things forward on social mobility and to play his part in the party for the workers, which he has helped to articulate in recent years.
Rob Marris
The hon. Gentleman is extolling the party for the workers, so does he agree that workers and workers’ representatives, and not simply employers, should be involved in institutions?
David Rutley
The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point. The Prime Minister has already talked about how we should look at having workers on the boards of companies. Let us see how we can take that forward, and what role they can play.
My right hon. Friend the Minister has a role to play in taking the Bill forward, and he has helped to articulate it further. I wish him well in the work that he is doing. He has already done important work in securing extra funding for businesses that take on an apprentice who has grown up in care. That shows that he has real credibility in driving this agenda forward.
As Conservative Members seek to build a Britain that works for everyone, we must promote social mobility and open up young people’s horizons to new experiences and aspirations beyond their own backgrounds. The Bill is vital in taking that work forward. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Minister will also take the opportunity to learn ways to bring businesses into the classroom and help more young people get out into the world of work. The Bill is an important start, and I wish him well with it.
Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)
I thank everyone who has spoken today. We have had a thoughtful, productive and constructive debate. Among Government Members, I particularly welcome the comments of the hon. Members for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson), for Macclesfield (David Rutley) and for Dover (Charlie Elphicke). The hon. Member for North Swindon is not in his place—[Interruption.] Oh, I am sorry; he is. I particularly want to congratulate him and my constituency neighbour, the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), on the work that they did on the review of access to apprenticeships for those with learning disabilities, which was really important.
We have had some excellent speeches from Opposition Members. My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt) quoted the famous American academic Robert Putnam on the decline of technical education and made a powerful argument for UTCs. My hon. Friend the Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell) talked about the importance of adult learning and the need to worry about the binary split, and I will say a couple of things about that. My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol South (Karin Smyth) pressed hard the need for upskilling, on the basis of the number of people in FE and schools in her constituency. My hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin), a most excellent former college head, spoke doughtily for his sector. He talked about the “cavalry coming over the hill”, but I think that the area-based reviews are not so much the cavalry coming over the hill as the “Charge of the Light Brigade”.
My hon. Friend the Member for Hove (Peter Kyle) drew on his considerable business and FE experience and talked about the rigidity of the levy. The Minister and his colleagues would do well to take on board the points he made. My hon. Friend the Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) brought his own wealth of experience to discuss the pitfalls of reorganisation, and he reminded us all of how these processes come and go and sometimes reincorporate themselves.
The Bill is timely, even if the methodology of its appearance is curious. If we wonder why it is necessary and why the Government should introduce it in a mood of humility, we need only survey the state of play in the twin areas of its operation. I bring to the House’s attention a document published today by Alison Wolf called “Remaking Tertiary Education”, which was supported by the Education Policy Institute. That research finds that technical education at levels 4 and 5 is on the verge of total collapse in terms of numbers. In 2014-15, only 4,900 learners achieved level 4 awards. In England, technical post-secondary awards now account for less than 2% of the qualifications taken and well under 1% of all qualifications funded in the skills system. Where level 4 and 5 qualifications are being delivered, they are not in subjects that meet the needs of the UK economy or labour market. Those are things that we should all think very hard about, and I look forward to Professor Wolf’s further observations when she comes before the Bill Committee as a witness.
We have heard about the decline in the financial health of the sector, and current forecasts suggest that the number of colleges under strain is set to rise rapidly. As my hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner) said in her excellent speech, it is no wonder, given the alarm bells about their continued viability that the Skills Funding Agency and the National Audit Office have been ringing. It is not just FE colleges that are feeling the strain. In September 2016, a Sixth Form Colleges Association survey showed that two thirds of colleges had dropped courses as a result of funding pressures, a third did not believe that next year’s funding would be sufficient and 31% thought that the college would cease to be financially viable in the next three years.
That is the context in which the Government decided to introduce a stand-alone Technical and Further Education Bill. We all know why they have done so: because the academies Bill into which they wanted to drop these measures as a feel-good sweetener has itself been dropped. The entire process has been mired in dither, uncertainty and an overall lack of connection. There was no attempt to put these measures into the Higher Education and Research Bill, where they would naturally have fitted. Rightly, the HE White Paper banged on strongly about the importance of technical and higher education skills. However, we have to look at the Bill before us.
As we have said, there is no role in the Bill for apprentices or learners to be on the board or to be involved with setting standards. We are right to draw parallels with the way in which, in the recent Higher Education and Research Bill, the Government resisted putting stakeholders—in that case, students; in this case, apprentices—into a new institution that is crucial for their success.
Gordon Marsden
I am afraid that I will not because I am short of time. [Interruption.] I am sorry, but it was indicated that I had 10 minutes.
The Government’s argument was, “You can trust us. You can leave it to us.” However, the evidence is clear: we cannot leave it to them. The skills plan consistently talks about the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education being employer-led. That is precisely why FE colleges, other training providers and learners need to be an essential component of it.
The Government gave us a body that has had two shadow chief executives so far—one was a career civil servant who left fairly rapidly to become a university registrar, and the other was the head of the Education Funding Agency and the Skills Funding Agency, Peter Lauener, who was drafted in part time. That is very much of a piece with the “make it up as you go along” way in which the Government have proceeded so far. It is therefore right for us to ask how the new institute will co-operate with the Office for Students, given how inadequate the current arrangements are for involving learners and providers. Given the fiascos during the past 18 months—for example, the Apprenticeship Delivery Board, which is tasked with advising the Government, has, with the new Government, lost its tsar and now has only the previous private sector co-chair of the board as its sole chair—we are right to ask such questions. Six months after their introduction, we are no closer to finding out how the two bodies will interact with each other.
We have had no word about what capacity the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education will have, and many concerns have been expressed about that. My hon. Friend the Member for Hove did us all a service by putting that question to the Minister. We know that the body was originally going to involve only 40 employers; it is now suggested that there will be 100 employers. As the chief executive of the Association of Colleges has said, in neither case will it be adequate for the purpose.
The Government have shown little sense about how the institute will operate in the jungle of organisations that now exist. There is the EFA, the SFA, the National Apprenticeship Service and the Apprenticeship Delivery Board. How will their roles overlap? What role will Ofsted play in the process? What about Ofqual? At best, it is an alphabet soup. At worst, it could become a tug of war in Whitehall, with the interests of providers and apprentices pushed from pillar to post.
The Bill has more than 20 clauses on insolvency and administration, which shows the direction in which the Government think things are going in the next few years. We believe that the outcomes of the area reviews may entrench, rather than remove, such liability. The college insolvency regime is being introduced alongside the Treasury-controlled restructuring facility. We will want to look very closely in Committee at that process and at the consultation process. We will also want to make sure that public assets are not handed to private, for-profit companies if an insolvency process is taken forward. We agree with the Association of Colleges that the Government have missed an opportunity to introduce a legal scheme that would cover both FE and HE corporations. This means that a college might have an additional regulatory burden that will make it harder to secure finance.
The skills plan itself is not without criticisms—how strategic it will be post-Brexit, and on productivity, workplace training and adult training—and the Government will need to talk about such issues. The concerns about binary choices and standards, which my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester Central spoke about, have been echoed by me, the general secretary of the Association of Teachers and Lecturers and the University and College Union. We are also concerned about the potentially limiting scope of some of the routes. As Mark Dawe, the chief executive of the Association of Employment and Learning Providers, has said, a large proportion of jobs in the economy will be outside the scope of the routes. As a Blackpool MP, with my local FE college, I believe it is crucial that the service sector, which will potentially provide huge numbers of apprenticeships and jobs, is not left out of the process.
There is no reference to the new institute having any responsibility to widen access, and nothing on a strategy to promote participation among care leavers, people from black and minority ethnic backgrounds or those with disabilities. We need that to be in the Bill. We agree with the excellent analysis of Shane Chowen, the head of policy at the Learning and Work Institute, on that point. We agree that the Bill ought to enshrine the recommendations of the Maynard review, to which we contributed. It suggested that the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills revisit the recommendations of the Little report of 2012. The Bill needs to do more for looked-after children and care leavers.
Insolvency might force some students to travel longer distances, but the Bill makes no reference to how they might be compensated or how difficult it might be for suburban and rural colleges. All these points strengthen our argument for the return of the education maintenance allowance.
I spoke earlier this afternoon about the problems the Government have got themselves into over careers advice. If we are to make a success of the institute, it is crucial that young people are alerted early in their school life to the importance and attraction of technical routes, and we must maximise the opportunities for them to get work tasters that translate into real work experience.
I am glad that the Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills has shown more enthusiasm for the progression from traineeships to apprenticeships than a couple of his predecessors. Traineeships are a key point of entry that can make more young people competitive. However, traineeships have to be progressive. If not, there is a danger that we will see some of the issues we saw in the 1980s.
Finally, I come to the issue of devo-max. In view of the potential for combined authorities to take on skills and education, why does the Bill not take more account of the potential for devolved skills policy? All it contains is a brief but important reference to the need for such authorities to report their statistics to preserve a national database. That is hardly an endorsement of the potential to drive apprenticeships and skills at a local level.
We speak in this debate having seen two overviews from two key think-tanks, the Institute for Public Policy Research and Policy Exchange, cast doubt on the Government’s direction of travel. The Government need to think very hard about some of the issues raised, such as whether level 2 apprenticeships are too job specific and whether a significant proportion of the apprenticeship standards are inadequate and a cause for concern. We will give the Bill a fair hearing. We want the Bill to succeed, but if it is to succeed there needs to be more detail and we need to hear less self-congratulation from Ministers and more aspiration for the groups that they have signally not included in the Bill.
The Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills (Robert Halfon)
I welcome the thoughtful contributions to the debate from Members on both sides of the House.
This important Bill has two purposes: to provide high-quality technical education to students; and, when colleges are suffering extreme financial difficulties, to provide clarity in the unlikely event of insolvency while protecting students as part of the process. The Bill has the protection and best interests of students at its heart, which is why David Hughes, the chief executive of the Association of Colleges, has stated that he is
“pleased that the Government is continuing to take forward the measures outlined in the Post-16 Skills Plan”.
The Bill is vital because we face serious challenges: a chronic shortage of high-skilled technicians; acute skills shortages in science, technology, engineering and maths; and low levels of literacy and numeracy compared with other OECD countries. A number of Members have raised an important issue about maths. We do not yet require all 17-year-olds who have not achieved an A to C in maths and English to resit the qualifications. Students who achieve lower than a D grade at 16 may take other qualifications. We are looking at functional skills. I want functional skills to be better and for them to be as prestigious to employers as other skills.
Robert Halfon
I ask the hon. Gentleman to hold on one second, because he said that he wanted resources for maths, and we have invested £67 million to recruit up to 2,500 additional maths and physics teachers, and to upskill up to 15,000 non-specialists. We are investing the resources.
Robert Halfon
I will not give way because of the shortage of time.
A number of hon. Members mentioned the Maynard reforms. We will implement those as soon as we possibly can, particularly with regard to the issue of maths for those with disabilities. We will inform the House as progress is made.
The hon. Member for Hove (Peter Kyle) talked about the levy and technology. The thing is that if companies have apprentices, they do not pay the levy, and they get 10% on top. This is about changing behaviour and raising money to fund millions of apprenticeships in our country.
We have substantially grown apprenticeships, with 619,000 starts, which is why we have the levy. It will have an impact on employers with a pay bill of £3 million or more and help to fund the quantity and quality of apprenticeship training. We are dramatically reducing the number of technical qualifications available, ensuring even better quality for students.
A lot has been said about FE funding, but by 2020 more will be spent on FE and skills participation than at any time in our island’s history—£3.4 billion in the year 2019-20. My hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) correctly described FE as a ladder of opportunity for young people.[Official Report, 20 December 2016, Vol. 618, c. 11MC.]
We are adopting the Sainsbury report, as has been suggested, and will put in place 15 high-quality technical routes to skilled employment. Those will be implemented by the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education, which will oversee the employer-led reforms.
We are proud of the university technical colleges. There is clearly a debate here, as some Members want those for pupils at 14 and some for education at 16. That debate will no doubt continue, but we allow flexible entry to UTCs in certain circumstances.
My hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (David Rutley) asked about the role of business. We have created the Careers & Enterprise Company to boost businesses’ linking up with students in schools.
The hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West (Rob Marris) talked about representation. I am very keen for all kinds of organisations to be represented. I am a trade union member myself, and I am very proud that this Government give Unionlearn £12 million. It has an incredible fund that supports thousands of learners and apprentices. I very much hope that trade unions will be involved in the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education. The institute will ensure that all technical provision, across both apprenticeships and college-based courses, matches the very best in the world.
Rob Marris
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Order Paper I have says that this debate can continue until 10 pm. Am I misreading it?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)
No, indeed. The hon. Gentleman is technically absolutely correct that the debate can continue until 10 o’clock.
Madam Deputy Speaker
Mr Hunt is excited at the prospect of another three hours from the Minister, but it is incumbent on every Member of this House to judge the mood of the House, the pace of the debate and the necessity of taking up the time of the House. From my observation and experience, a speech of between 10 and 15 minutes from a Minister winding up is usually appropriate and welcomed by most Members of the House.
Robert Halfon
The hon. Gentleman and other Opposition Members talked about quality, not quantity. They should practise what they preach.
Let me give an example of the technical education reforms in practice. For someone aspiring to be an engineer, rather than choosing from the 500 qualifications that are currently on offer, many of which hold very little value for employers, there will be one clear route: the new engineering and manufacturing route. That individual will choose an apprenticeship or college-based technical education course by choosing an occupation. They will initially learn a broad base of knowledge based on one approved standard per occupation, and then they will specialise, for example towards electrical engineering. The awarded certificate will be universally recognised and have real value for employers. That is an example of the nature of our technical reforms.
There is no doubt that FE and sixth-form colleges play a vital role in our education system, as the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) noted so brilliantly. That is why I have visited my own FE college more than 50 times since becoming an MP. FE colleges act as genuine centres of expertise. We know that, because 80% of colleges are either good or outstanding, and 79% of adult FE students get jobs, move to apprenticeships or progress to university afterwards. It is worth noting that 59% of institutions are in good financial health and 52% are operating with a surplus.
A minority of colleges, however, are in serious financial difficulties—about 40 colleges face these problems. In supporting these colleges, we forecast by March 2017 a total spend of £140 million on exceptional financial support. That £140 million could have been invested in students. We have to deal with the roots of these problems and ensure that we protect students, which was why we started the area reviews, about which there has been much discussion. They will be completed by March 2017 and will ensure financial resilience, strong leadership and well-governed institutions. We have a moral duty to students that money is spent on learning, and a duty to deliver value for money for the taxpayer. Money that would otherwise be spent servicing debt will be freed up to invest in high-quality education and learning.
Robert Halfon
I am very sorry, but I cannot because of time, even to my hon. Friend. I apologise.
Let me be clear: no FE or sixth-form college will close as a direct result of the Bill. The Bill will help to ensure prudent borrowing and lending, and to safeguard the protection of students.
The insolvency regime under the Bill will clarify what will happen should a college become insolvent. The special administrative regime we are introducing will allow Ministers to take action to ensure that learners are protected. There will be duties on the Secretary of State to promote education, and to provide suitable apprenticeship training and basic skills training for certain people. All existing statutory requirements will stay in place. Local authorities are also legally responsible for promoting effective participation and making clear how transport arrangements support young people of sixth-form age to access opportunities. That is not to say, however, that creditors are not important. Colleges and banks have long worked together to grow and develop the FE sector. The Bill will introduce a clear process for all involved should a college become insolvent, and will reassure creditors about how their debt will be treated.
The reforms in the Bill are fundamental to the Government’s vision for a country that works for everyone. It will ensure that we improve the skills base in our country, that we increase our economic productivity, that we protect students, and that those from the most disadvantaged backgrounds have a chance to climb up the ladder of opportunity. I commend the Bill to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
Technical and Further Education Bill (Programme)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),
That the following provisions shall apply to the Technical and Further Education Bill:
Committal
1. The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee.
Proceedings in Public Bill Committee
2. Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Tuesday 6 December 2016.
3. The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the first day on which it meets.
Proceedings on Consideration and up to and including Third Reading
4. Proceedings on Consideration and the proceedings in legislative grand committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the day on which those proceedings are commenced.
5. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on that day.
6. Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings on Consideration and up to and including Third Reading.
Other proceedings
7. Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments or on any further messages from the Lords) may be programmed.—(Heather Wheeler.)
Question agreed to.
Technical and Further Education Bill (Money)
Queen’s recommendation signified.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52(1)(a)),
That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Technical and Further Education Bill, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of—
(1) any expenditure incurred under or by virtue of the Act by the Secretary of State, and
(2) any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable under any other Act out of money so provided.—(Heather Wheeler.)
Question agreed to.
Technical and Further Education Bill (Ways and Means)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52(1)(a)),
That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Technical and Further Education Bill, it is expedient to authorise—
(1) the charging of fees, and
(2) the payment of sums into the Consolidated Fund.—(Heather Wheeler.)
Question agreed to.
Homelessness Reduction Bill (Money)
Queen’s recommendation signified.
Resolved,
That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Homelessness Reduction Bill, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable under any other Act out of money so provided.—(Mr Marcus Jones.)
Technical and Further Education Bill (First sitting)
Tuesday 22nd November 2016
(8 years ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Technical and Further Education Act 2017 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 22 November 2016 - (22 Nov 2016)
The Chair
Before we begin, I have a few preliminary points, which some of you may be familiar with. Please switch electronic devices off or to silent. Tea and coffee are not allowed during sittings, but you may drink water. Today we will consider the programme motion on the amendment paper. We will then consider a motion to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions before the oral sessions, and then a further motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication. There is an amendment to the programme motion, because one of our witnesses, Poppy Wolfarth from the National Society of Apprentices, has had to pull out because of a family illness.
Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)
On that point, we all try very hard to get the apprentice voice heard, so it is unfortunate that the witness cannot come today. On the original list of witnesses was the name of Baroness Wolf, which has since disappeared, so she is obviously not giving evidence to us today. Do we know the background to that?
The Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty’s Treasury (David Evennett)
I believe she is unavailable to come along today because of other commitments. We are disappointed, but obviously people have full diaries.
The Chair
In the Minister’s absence, I call the Whip to move the programme motion and the amendment to it.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That—
(1) the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at 9.25 am on Tuesday 22 November) meet—
(a) at 2.00 pm on Tuesday 22 November;
(b) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 24 November;
(c) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 29 November;
(d) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 1 December;
(e) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 6 December;
(2) the Committee shall hear oral evidence on Tuesday 22 November in accordance with the following Table:
Time | Witness |
|---|---|
Until no later than 10.10 am | Lord Sainsbury of Turville; Shadow Chief Executive for the Institute for Apprenticeships; National Society of Apprentices |
Until no later than 11.25 am | Association of Colleges; Further Education Commissioner; Sixth Form Colleges’ Association; Collab Group (formerly 157 Group); University College London |
Until no later than 3.00 pm | Ernst & Young; Lloyd’s Banking Group; Santander; Barclays |
Until no later than 4.00 pm | National Union of Students; Learning and Work Institute; Blackpool and The Fylde College |
(3) proceedings on consideration of the Bill in Committee shall be taken in the following order: Clause 1; Schedule 1; Clauses 2 to 23; Schedule 2; Clause 24; Schedule 3; Schedule 4; Clauses 25 to 45; and remaining proceedings on the Bill; and
(4) the proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 5.00 pm on Tuesday 6 December.—(David Evennett.)
Manuscript amendment made: 1, in paragraph (2), leave out “; National Society of Apprentices”.—(David Evennett.)
Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to.
Ordered,
That—
(1) the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at 9.25 am on Tuesday 22 November) meet—
(a) at 2.00 pm on Tuesday 22 November;
(b) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 24 November;
(c) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 29 November;
(d) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 1 December;
(e) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 6 December;
(2) the Committee shall hear oral evidence on Tuesday 22 November in accordance with the following Table:
Time | Witness |
|---|---|
Until no later than 10.10 am | Lord Sainsbury of Turville; Shadow Chief Executive for the Institute for Apprenticeships |
Until no later than 11.25 am | Association of Colleges; Further Education Commissioner; Sixth Form Colleges’ Association; Collab Group (formerly 157 Group); University College London |
Until no later than 3.00 pm | Ernst & Young; Lloyd’s Banking Group; Santander; Barclays |
Until no later than 4.00 pm | National Union of Students; Learning and Work Institute; Blackpool and The Fylde College |
(3) proceedings on consideration of the Bill in Committee shall be taken in the following order: Clause 1; Schedule 1; Clauses 2 to 23; Schedule 2; Clause 24; Schedule 3; Schedule 4; Clauses 25 to 45; and remaining proceedings on the Bill; and
(4) the proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 5.00 pm on Tuesday 6 December.
Resolved,
That, at this and any subsequent meeting at which oral evidence is to be heard, the Committee shall sit in private until the witnesses are admitted.—(David Evennett.)
Resolved,
That, subject to the discretion of the Chair, any written evidence received by the Committee shall be reported to the House for publication.—(David Evennett.)
The Chair
Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room. We will now go into private session to discuss lines of questioning.
The Chair
Good morning and welcome. Would you say a few words to introduce yourselves and the positions you hold, for voice transcription purposes if nothing else? We all know you, but that would be helpful.
Lord Sainsbury: My name is David Sainsbury. I was chairman of the Independent Panel on Technical Education.
Peter Lauener: My name is Peter Lauener. I am shadow chief executive of the Institute for Apprenticeships, and therefore leading its set-up—it will be up and running next April.
The Chair
Before I call the first Member to ask a question, I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill and that we must stick to the timings set out in the programme motion that the Committee has agreed. For this session we have until 10.10 am, so if we are approaching 10.10 am please do not ask a long question that the witness would be unable to answer before the knife falls. I call Gordon Marsden.
Gordon Marsden
Q Thank you, Mr Bailey. It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship and to welcome our witnesses, both of whom have a distinguished and long-standing interest in this area, which we will pursue.
Lord Sainsbury, these issues about technical education, which you have campaigned and lobbied for hard over many years, have finally reached some form of catharsis—if that is the right word—in terms of the statute book, which for you must be somewhere on the spectrum between huge delight and moderate satisfaction. However, the Bill has avoided committing to the 15 routes that you suggested in your review. Are there any specific additional provisions that you would like to see in the Bill?
Lord Sainsbury: No. It seemed to me to be a very sensible approach to this issue. Always, in these things, you have to combine the basic requirements, but you also need to leave room for flexibility. I do not think that there has been a great argument about the 15 routes, but in the end one needs to have some flexibility built into a piece of legislation, if it is going to last as we hope it will.
Gordon Marsden
Q Yes. I am sure that in later discussions the Minister will want to elaborate on this issue, but there have been statements by Department for Education and Skills Funding Agency officials on the extent to which the routes themselves might be rather flexible, in terms of what they could include, even within the 15. It makes me think of the line:
“In my Father’s house are many mansions”.
We hope that some of those mansions will be explored further on.
I want to press you further, because you said that you are perfectly content with the position as it is, but you have been—forgive the English, or the French—“banging on” about this for years and years. I remember at least two excellent addresses in the past decade that you have given to various organisations on this issue. Yet we know, according to Baroness Wolf and the pamphlet, “Remaking Tertiary Education”, which she has just been involved with, that:
“Technical education, at Level 4 and Level 5, is on the verge of total collapse due to a steep decline in numbers.”
I also note that you have called for more funding for the technical route and for implementation. Would you like to comment further on those two points?
Lord Sainsbury: I think that funding is absolutely key to this whole area. I think that we have organised our system of technical education extremely badly over the years, but it is also true that we have underfunded it on quite a substantial scale. What has been proposed in my report, and what is in the Bill, will greatly improve and clarify the system, but there is still an issue of funding. If you look at the number of hours we fund further education colleges to do this kind of training, you will see that it is extremely low by international standards. So there is a funding issue here, as well as the bits of funding that we have suggested, for example for work placement, which is clearly fundamental and which I hope we can get movement on. There is a more long-term basic funding issue.
Gordon Marsden
We may or may not get some clarity on that in the autumn statement, but I am grateful to you. Mr Bailey, I would like to ask Mr Lauener some questions in due course.
The Chair
Are there any other takers? While other Members dwell upon that, I will invite you, Mr Marsden, to ask your question of Mr Lauener.
Gordon Marsden
Q Mr Lauener, it is a great pleasure to have you with us today. You have an enviable record of longevity in this area of activity. When I was going over your CV and looking at the various things you have done over the years, I was reminded of the famous French statesman Talleyrand. When asked what he had done during the French revolution, he famously replied, “I survived.” You seem to have survived several revolutions in this area, and several Governments. Could you start by saying what the key issue is for you in your new position, as opposed to the variety of positions you have held in the past?
Peter Lauener: Thank you very much; that was a very interesting introduction. The Institute for Apprenticeships does have a key role, and of course as a result of this Bill it will morph into the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education—subject to Parliament. The key thing for me is, first, that it demonstrates employer leadership of apprenticeships and technical education. That is not just about the body at the head of the institute, where we have been very pleased with the high calibre of applicants for positions, but it also refers to all the route panels and other bodies that will bring expertise to the institute.
We have estimated that overall that should amount to between 250 and 300 employers involved in all parts of the institute. The number itself, if it is managed badly, could just become a bureaucratic process, but I think it is vital that those employers bring expertise and credibility, and that when the institute says we need a new standard in this, it is because employers are saying that.
Gordon Marsden
Q I could not agree with you more on that; it is extremely important, going back to the original review in 2012, which talked about the whole area being employer-led, that that is the case. Unfortunately, following a series of untoward events, that has not exactly been demonstrated in the institute’s leadership so far, has it? Because you are the second shadow chief executive who has been there. The first was a lady who had a significantly long civil service career in various Departments, but she did not stay terribly long—I think she stayed about a couple of months. Now you have taken over. I pay tribute to your versatility, because you hold a number of other positions.
The message that has been sent to the outside world, which may be unfair, is that although the Government have talked about the institute being employer-led, they have not put that into practice thus far when it comes to its shadow chief executives. What confidence can we have that the new board, chair and chief executive will have a very strong employer focus?
Peter Lauener: To make an obvious point, the institute does not yet exist—legally it will start on 1 April next year—so the preparations and appointments are being made. When people see the calibre of the board, and the employers on route committees supporting that and bringing particular sector expertise, everyone will see that the institute has employer knowledge, skills and behaviours—to take that phrase—built into every aspect of its operation.
Gordon Marsden
Q Can I just stop you there? You talked about the recruitment process, but can you give us any clarity on when it will be completed and when we might expect to see, as it were, white smoke coming out of the chimney? We are on a terribly tight timescale for this process, with the introduction of the apprenticeship levy and the formal setting up of the new institute.
Peter Lauener: The process for appointing members of the institute is substantially complete. I expect an announcement will be made about that shortly.
Gordon Marsden
Q Is that a civil service “shortly” or a general one?
Peter Lauener: There is not yet a planned date for it. There are one or two items—
Gordon Marsden
Before Christmas?
Peter Lauener: I would be surprised if there was not an announcement before Christmas. Incidentally, we are also planning to publish for consultation the Government’s remit letter in draft to the institute, and I would also expect, again before Christmas, a draft of the institute’s first strategic plan. The intention is that that would then be open for discussion with a wide group of employers and stakeholders, so that the institute, when it is formed, with the employer members and the shadow chair—I will say something about that in a moment—will be able to start its operation with an agreed plan for the 2017-18 year, which has already been subject to wide consultation and which is owned by the institute.
The other thing to add, of course, is that Antony Jenkins has been shadow chair. In my experience, having had several discussions with him, he has brought very visible employer leadership to this set-up phase, and I have been very happy to support him during that. The advertisement for the post of permanent chair is now closed. I expect interviews to take place shortly and an announcement to be made in due course. That might well take a bit longer.
Gordon Marsden
Q It is helpful to hear that you want to keep the employers in a prominent position. It is also important for the wider FE sector, which you are trying to encourage to take up apprenticeships. The Minister’s predecessor, perfectly rightly, exhorted the sector—not with significant success—to increase apprenticeship numbers. On the subject of increasing numbers, I want to ask about capacity—not your personal capacity, which obviously encompasses quite a few areas already, but the capacity of the institute to do some of the things said on the tin.
One of the Bill’s important provisions is the extension to the area of technical education. We welcome that and think it is very important. I am sure Lord Sainsbury does as well. However, that area has capacity issues, too. The Minister and, for that matter, you, have been rather coy about putting out any figures for the staffing of the institute, so we have had to rely on rumours and leaked papers. We were told originally that there were going to be 40 employees, and there is now some suggestion that there will be around 100. Are you able to give any more clarity on that?
Peter Lauener: I expect that when the institute starts at the beginning of April next year, it will have about 60 employees. The planned running costs next year are about £8 million, but the number of staff will need to build up as the additional responsibilities, subject to Parliament, are added. That will probably be another 30 or so staff. I should emphasise that those figures are provisional at this stage. We need to keep them under review. One thing I am looking at is the roles and responsibilities of the Skills Funding Agency and the institute. There may be some marginal adjustments.
Gordon Marsden
Q So you are interrogating yourself on a daily basis.
Peter Lauener: I constantly challenge myself by saying, “Am I using the resources available in the best way possible?”
Gordon Marsden
Q Well, at least you will have a convenient and convivial conversation, because you are one and the same thing, are you not?
Peter Lauener: I am indeed. As I am sure you are aware, I am also chief executive of the Education Funding Agency. It would not be at all appropriate for these three things to be combined on an ongoing basis. As I said at the start, I am very pleased, because of a lifelong interest in and commitment to apprenticeships, to have the responsibility of helping to set up the institute for next April and to ensure that the governance is—
Gordon Marsden
Indeed, and we will not commit you to the two further roles that FE Week cartooned you as having: taking part in the “Great British Bake Off” and “Strictly Come Dancing”.
Peter Lauener: No one has contacted me about those.
Gordon Marsden
Q As we know from Vince Cable, people from this area have a good track record, so you might want to put that on your list.
You talked about the numbers. I think there will be considerable concern in the sector as to what skills these people bring to the table. With that in mind, and given the staff reductions in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills—of course, this is a machinery of government change—do you expect to be moving across or recruiting people from either the SFA or BIS who have previous experience in this area?
Peter Lauener: We have advertised externally for the key role of deputy directors, where we are looking to fill six posts. We have been very pleased, again, with the quality of applicants, which I think is an indication of the widespread interest across employers and the training and skills sector in the institute being set up. We have had a very good set of applications. From memory, we had 90 applications for those six posts, and we are very confident that we will be able to appoint a broad range of experienced individuals.
Gordon Marsden
Q Can I take you up on that point about a broad range of experienced individuals? That can cover a multitude of abilities or a multitude of sins. Many stakeholders have expressed concern throughout this process—indeed, the Opposition expressed it during the passage of the Enterprise Act 2016, which gave birth to the concept—that the new institute’s board might be too narrow in its experience and focus, as we believe the apprenticeship delivery board has been. Do you have any views on the importance of having, for example, an apprentice or someone from the apprenticeship coalface, as it were, on the board?
Peter Lauener: I think that the institute should certainly be clear how it is going to secure the voice of apprentices in its understanding and deliberations. I do not think that I should comment about the particular membership of the institute, but the principle of having knowledge, understanding and the live voice of apprentices is really important for the institute’s work. Inevitably, there is a lot of focus on employer leadership, but I think we need to look at apprenticeships from the perspective of employers and individuals.
Gordon Marsden
Q My final question is not so much about the membership of the board as about the reception that you want the new institute to get from providers and employers. As you know, a big question that is still being discussed vigorously in the FE sector is the extent to which small and medium-sized employers will be able to benefit from the apprenticeship levy. It is widely believed that gaining acceptance in the SME sector will be critical for the Government to reach their 3 million target. What confidence do you have that the new board will be able to reflect and respond to the SME sector’s continuing concerns that it is not exactly at the front of the queue in terms of the apprenticeship levy?
Peter Lauener: I would extend that beyond the board itself and to the route committees that I have talked about. There needs to be a wide range of employer experience, both from large employers and small and medium-sized employers, in these critical bodies—the route committees—which will be looking at the right standards. Of course, the standard that we are talking about is the standard wherever it is applied; it is about the standard for an occupation and about the knowledge, skills and behaviours that an individual needs to be able to do a job properly for the benefit of the employer. You need the context both of large employers and of small and medium-sized employers to make that work properly.
Gordon Marsden
Q But you understand the point that I am making, I hope. Without becoming too technical, one issue historically for SMEs in taking on apprenticeships has been the lack of back-office support. In my experience—I have employed three apprentices over a three-year period, and being an MP is like running a small business; you juggle all sorts of things—SMEs constantly say that they would love to take on apprentices, and when they do and the apprentices are successful, no one is a stronger advocate for them than SMEs. However, they struggle with back-office support, red tape and all the rest of it. I am not trying to commit you to a specific SME place on the board, but do you understand why those concerns persist? Do you intend to try to provide reassurance about them and, if possible, given your years of unrivalled experience in this area, cut some of the red tape?
Peter Lauener: First, the new technical system—the digital apprenticeship service—that will be introduced from the beginning of next year will be much easier for employers of all sizes to navigate and for individuals to see apprenticeships on the system. That will be open to only large employers at the start, but we would expect to extend it over time.
Secondly, we should not underestimate the role of training providers. Again, under the digital apprenticeship system, most employers will still be using a training provider. They will be able to choose from the training providers on the system. In my experience—I speak partly as an employer in my own organisations of apprentices—organisations are heavily reliant on the training provider to make sure that the training is relevant, well managed and that the trainee is supported through the apprenticeship. I would expect that to be a continuing pattern in the future.
Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)
Q I want to build on some of the comments Mr Marsden has made. I used to run a small business, and by accident I employed someone on an apprenticeship because I stumbled across an apprentice, and I benefited greatly. One of the biggest challenges in us reaching the commendable target of 3 million apprenticeships is that lack of awareness from small businesses. I have repeatedly pushed that we should use the business rate mailer to include a rather nice, glossy A5 flier.
It is encouraging that you are talking about this digital portal where there will be a one-stop shop for all the information, but you said at the beginning that that is just for the larger employers. How quickly do you see that being cascaded down to the smaller employers? The reality is that, whatever the political persuasion of the Government of the day, the large employers will re-badge their ongoing training packages to match what is going. If we really are to create some great opportunities, we must include those small and medium-sized businesses that can offer those unique, more bespoke jobs that can fit apprentices’ individual skills and give them a real opportunity to progress. However, those businesses are waiting to be told of this fantastic resource. How quickly can we cascade that information down?
Peter Lauener: I should make it clear that the ability of small and medium-sized employers still to be involved in apprenticeships does not depend on day one of the digital apprenticeship system. We would expect to continue the allocations of funding to training providers—to be clear, that is through the Skills Funding Agency rather than through the Institute for Apprenticeships—which we have operated for many years, for small and medium-sized employers. That will ensure significant continuity in the system. I would expect no risk to the target for growth in numbers.
That will apply for the 2017-18 year. We will need to review that in the context of how quickly the levy-paying employers take up the opportunities to secure apprenticeships under the levy system, so we will monitor that closely. The 2017-18 year is secure, and after that we will review how small and medium-sized employers should be brought on to the core digital apprenticeship service. But even from day one it will be a public-access system and people will be able to see what is on it, so I think it will be a good way of conveying the richness of apprenticeships available.
Justin Tomlinson
Q But people will see it only if they know to go and look at it. Therefore, in theory we are relying on the training providers making contact with them, and when they do I am sure that businesses snap their hands off. However, the training providers do not have huge marketing budgets, so they do not go door-to-door to those small employers.
The Department for Work and Pensions is trialling the small employer offer. It is worth considering sitting down with the DWP and talking about whether there could be joint funding for that offer. In the economy at the moment a lot of businesses have skills gaps, and the idea is that someone in each region or employment area doorsteps an employer and asks, “Do you have a skills gap in your organisation? What is it?”, and then goes back. They could find that, “An apprentice is suitable for you. There are the providers. We will ask them to visit you next week and discuss it over a cup of tea”, and match them together. Therefore, rather than trying to duplicate things, with some co-funding I think you will be able to plug those gaps. That, in my opinion, is the fastest way for us to get to that 3 million target.
Peter Lauener: Thank you very much for the suggestion. I am happy to take that away and look at it. One other thing we operate at the moment, which I think is quite successful, is a dedicated employer helpline, which I think operates 8 am to 7 pm, seven days a week. We get quite good feedback on the information available on that for employers.
Justin Tomlinson
Find a way to sneak it into the business rate mailer—then every business will know about it.
The Chair
I remind Members that we have only 12 or 13 minutes for three further questioners, so could questions be brief and answers pithy? Thank you.
Tracy Brabin (Batley and Spen) (Lab)
Q I applaud your desire to reach out to learners and have a conversation with them during the teething process. However, there does not seem to be a specific requirement in the Bill to have learners on the board, talking to you. They are going to be the guinea pigs. This will be up and running very soon; April seems five minutes away. Can you specify how learners are going to be connected to the board?
Peter Lauener: I cannot specify that in detail at the moment, because that is, properly, something that the board should discuss. With my deputy chief executive, Mike Keoghan, I am making a plan of board activities during January, February and March, to allow the board to focus on all the aspects of its remit and to think about the governance as well. I mentioned earlier that we expect to consult on a draft strategic plan for the institute for 2017-18, and I am sure that that will be an occasion to raise the question and get lots of views back. The board can then discuss it in the January to March period before coming out with its final plan, I hope right at the beginning of April, so that it is clear from the start of the institute’s operation exactly how it will operate across a broad range of activities, certainly including the one that you have mentioned.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
Q The Bill supports the occupational categories of quality apprenticeships set out in that excellent document, the “Post-16 Skills Plan”; they include construction, and engineering and manufacturing. That is fantastic and a real step forward. Do you both believe that the Bill provides an effective ability to redefine those categories as economic sectors evolve? Secondly, do you believe that the mechanisms are in place to enable businesses and employers to have a meaningful role in redefining those categories as things progress?
Lord Sainsbury: It comes back to the original question. You have to have a certain amount of flexibility. As far as I can make out, that flexibility is there, and it is important. Of course, it is also important that we do not let the system degenerate, whereby everyone goes back to saying, “I want something specifically for my business or a very small group of businesses.” It is very important that one keeps down the number of routes, but exactly what categories they include will have to be for the people running those routes to say. I think we have made quite a good stab at doing that, but there are one or two cases where you can certainly argue about whether we got the right job in the right route.
Peter Lauener: It is absolutely vital that the institute actively manages the system of apprenticeship standards. For the past couple of years, while new standards have been developed by trailblazer groups, we have not had that picture of what the overall system would look like. Lord Sainsbury’s report helps enormously with that. An early priority for the institute is to develop that map, communicate it, review it actively and spot areas that need updating. I imagine that one or two of the early standards will, with hindsight, look a little bit narrow, so they ought to be reviewed. Every standard has a review date anyway, but the institute, through its route committees, will need to actively manage that.
One of the great virtues of the German system is its absolute clarity about the number of apprenticeships, routes into apprenticeships and things like that. If you talk to people in Germany, they often say, “We’d like the system to be more flexible.” I think the institute has the opportunity from the start to build in that flexibility and responsiveness to the changing labour market.
Naz Shah (Bradford West) (Lab)
Q I have a quick question about the idea that this is going to turn into another 11-plus. What reassurance can you give us about what you have put in place to ensure that the technical route will be as prestigious as the academic route?
Lord Sainsbury: There has been a very long-running argument about this. It is useful to look at the experience of other countries. If you do that, you see that pretty well every developed country has a system of two routes: an academic route and a technical education route. There is quite a variation in the point at which people choose between the two routes, but most of them have it. In most of the successful countries you find the two routes are equally well valued, so there is not a problem of the technical education route being considered inferior. You can have these two routes and both of them be highly valued.
The question we have to ask ourselves is why in our system the technical route is undervalued. I think the answer is because it is a very bad system that does not deliver what people want on the system. What they want above all is to be able to take a qualification and for that qualification to work in the marketplace. What that means is that you can go along to an employer and say, “I have got this qualification,” and the employer will give priority to you over somebody who has not got the qualification. That is not true of our system. The first thing you have to do to make the technical education route valued is to make it deliver for young people something of value to them, which is the ability to get a better job with security. That is the issue. It is not about age of selection or the fact that you have two routes.
Peter Lauener: I agree 100%.
The Chair
That brings us to the end of the questions. I thank the witnesses on behalf of the Committee. We will move on to the next panel, who are all here. Thank you very much.
Examination of Witnesses
David Hughes, Professor Alison Fuller, Richard Atkins CBE, Bill Watkin and Ian Pretty gave evidence.
The Chair
We will now hear evidence from the Association of Colleges, the Further Education Commissioner, the Sixth Form Colleges Association, the Collab Group and Professor Alison Fuller from University College London. We have until 11.25 am. Welcome. Please introduce yourselves for voice transcription purposes.
David Hughes: Good morning. I am David Hughes, chief executive of the Association of Colleges.
Professor Alison Fuller: I am Alison Fuller, professor of vocational education and work at UCL Institute of Education.
Richard Atkins: I am Richard Atkins, the FE Commissioner.
Bill Watkin: My name is Bill Watkin and I am chief executive of the Sixth Form Colleges Association.
Ian Pretty: I am Ian Pretty, chief executive of the Collab Group.
Gordon Marsden
Q I warmly welcome all of our panel, each distinguished in different areas. Who to pick on first is an invidious choice, but given the context of the previous conversations, perhaps I could start with David.
We have just heard from Peter Lauener an expansive view of where the institute is going. He talked about its digital abilities and I think the words he used were that standards would continually need redefining. As that was going on, hammering in my brain was “capacity, capacity, capacity”. You have expressed some concerns about the capacity. Would you like to elaborate on that?
David Hughes: Thank you for picking on me first. The capacity issue is partly about timing as well. I am concerned—we are very concerned—that the changes are being rushed because of the timing issues. Sixty people sounds like a small organisation to deal with 15 routes and 250-odd employers. There is a big job to be done and it does feel as though a lot is changing at the same time.
What we have been doing with Peter and his team and with officials in the Department is trying to think through the risks and to work with them to make sure that we can address any problems that occur very early on. When you are fundamentally changing the funding system, there are lots of unknowns. The big unknown is how employers will behave in the new system—nobody can predict that. It is in all our interests to make sure that we do not lose capacity in the whole system, let alone in the IFA itself. We have offered to work closely with Peter and his team to try to address any problems at a really early stage, and I am really pleased with the response so far.
Gordon Marsden
Q That is good, and highly valuable. One of the things I did not mention is the fact that the Government used to be able to use the UK Commission for Employment and Skills as a backstop—sometimes a very short-term backstop—in terms of delivery mechanisms out of the Department, but of course they rather unfortunately abolished that earlier this year. On that point, because as you well know there has been a lively debate between Ministers and your membership in the past as to whether they are doing enough for apprenticeships, are you confident now that your members have got the message about the new institute, or are there particular issues that you would still like to highlight?
David Hughes: I think there are three key issues. One is funding, and it was good to hear Lord Sainsbury talking about the funding issues. If we want a really high-quality system, we need to invest in it. I still find it completely illogical that we fund 11 to 16 at something like £5,500 per head, 16 to 18 at about £4,000, apprenticeships at about £1,500 per head and higher education at £9,000. In HE, we have index linking coming in with the new teaching excellence framework which we do not have in FE. If we want a high-quality offer at 16 to 18, which we do, we need to get the investment right.
Two other issues that go with that investment, and are really critical to allow colleges and other providers to invest in quality themselves, are stability and certainty. The thing that we want more than anything else, both on the technical education side and on the apprenticeship side, is some stability rather than constant change and churn, and certainty about those changes, so that my members and others can invest over the long term in the equipment, the people, the relationships and the outreach to students and potential apprentices. We have had a blizzard of changes over the past 10 or perhaps 15 years, and that causes my members and others to be cautious about the investment they make. The biggest risk to all this is the lack of certainty for the future. It is difficult, because how do you provide certainty? Some big statements from Government would be really helpful.
Gordon Marsden
Q You are absolutely right to make that point. The old joke used to be that when the Minister for HE sent a letter to universities it was more like the opening gambit of a conversation, or, “Would you like to do this?” whereas the letter that went to FE just said, “Do it.” I think and hope that we have moved on from there, Minister, and I hope that will not be the case in quite the same dirigiste way in the future. One of the issues that employers and other sectors are raising with me is just how rapidly some of the things, such as the digital system, are going to come on board. If that does not work to start with, that is going to be a further downer and concern for your members, is it not?
David Hughes: There are lots of concerns. The comparison with HE is quite interesting. Last week, the Higher Education Funding Council came out with a report on the financial picture for the sector; it is very concerned that there is only a 4.3% surplus predicted for next year. The FE sector has no surplus. That is my investment point. Quality needs investment, and FE colleges do not have that investment capacity at the moment. Issues around the digital service would and could be overcome by providers and colleges working closely with the employers they already work with, and that is one of those issues of timing and capacity. So there is a partnership approach that we are trying to push very strongly.
Gordon Marsden
Q Ian Pretty, you have been in post for about a year now. You have come to what we used to know as the 157 Group, now Collab, from a distinguished background as a career civil servant and also having spent time in the private sector. Having been in post for a year, what have you learned and what are your members telling you about capacity issues that is relevant to the Bill and particularly to the specific questions we have raised about the institute’s capacity to do all the wonderful things Peter Lauener told us about?
Ian Pretty: I agree with a lot of what David said. In terms of the capacity issue for the institute, you have to get the right resources in there. As you said, I am a former senior civil servant and a tax inspector, so I have a lot of experience in those things. I would focus on capability as well. You can have 60 people or 100 people in the institute, but have you got the right capability? I would be nervous if the institute was completely staffed by civil servants. If this organisation is about co-creation with the private sector and the education sector, you need people with the capability to understand how business thinks and how business operates. You also need people who understand how the education providers operate. On the capacity issue, in terms of raw numbers you will cite something, but capability is more important.
Gordon Marsden
Q You have to drill down, basically; that is what you are saying.
Ian Pretty: Yes, and you have to have the right people sitting in that institution. If the institute is focused on the skills plan, as the Government propose, that is sensible to me. Given my background, one thing I am mindful of is that we spent a huge amount of time—displacement time—on the area-based reviews. If we had had the skills plan and the insolvency regime in place, the ABR process might have been a smoother and easier process, because there would have been a logic to it.
Gordon Marsden
Q Your members include a significant number that have HE capacity. We were talking yesterday in another place about HE issues. One concern that has been expressed to us is the institute’s ability to grapple with the HE dimension of higher skills, which I am sure Lord Sainsbury would think is important, and treatment in terms of HE in FE colleges. Sometimes, dare I say it—I certainly felt it in the White Paper—it is an afterthought, rather than an integral part of the solution. What do you think the institute and Ministers need to do to ensure that the role of HE in FE is more fundamentally understood by Departments?
Ian Pretty: In terms of the institute’s capabilities and the people who are in there, it is important; you are right. Most of our members have HE as part of their remit. This goes back to the whole issue around the skills plan and the Sainsbury review. If you create the right technical pathways, you need to understand through that, from level 1 up to 6-plus, where that will be delivered and the role of HE within that. It could be HE in terms of the universities sector, but in our case it is HE sitting within the FE sector. That is a growing business for us, particularly around things like degree apprenticeships. It is important that the institute understands HE and plays an active role in understanding how HE operates within the FE sector.
Gordon Marsden
Q Finally, I will come to you, Professor Fuller. I am not going to credit you with quite the longevity—perhaps I should, but never mind—that I gave to Peter Lauener, but you have been around for quite a long time in this area. You have seen promises and Select Committees come and go. In the things you have seen and heard so far about the new architecture that the Government are proposing, which do you think are good and positive steps forward, and which are you feeling a bit more queasy about?
Professor Alison Fuller: I certainly welcome the renewed focus on what we used to call vocational education but now call technical education, and the seeming rise of it up the public policy agenda. However, today and in this Bill what we are trying to scrutinise is what stands behind that. We have been concerned about that for years, and it is about the seriousness with which this is taken. My colleagues have talked very clearly about capacity and capability issues. When we look at comparative countries, we see much more stability and longevity about arrangements for drawing in all the key constituencies to the decision-making processes. That kind of stability is there.
In addition to the stakeholders that have been mentioned, I would also say that the professional bodies and associations are key to this as well, because we are talking here about how these new routes will articulate during a career with the ladders of progression that exist. The professional bodies and associations are essentially the guardians of that kind of area.
In terms of concerns, it is really the substance and significance of the routes that are being proposed that concern me, if we are going to try to create something that is really high quality and which begins to address the parity of esteem question, which one of the panel was talking about earlier. The reality is that we are talking about a proposal for two-year programmes, which are called full time, but if you dig into what full time means, the definitions can be as little as 12 to 14 hours a week. If you phone up a college and say, for example, “I am looking to do a level 3 course in business administration. How many hours would that be?” you will typically be told 12 to 14 hours. If you look at the benefit rules, full time is defined as around that time. Potentially, we are looking at trying to help young people to reach a much higher level—level 3, hopefully, after two years—but with very little input. That is a real concern for me. That raises questions about how the routes are articulating downwards with the GCSE and upwards to higher education.
There is a big issue about intensity. Again, when we compare with other countries, we see that the full-time vocational routes tend to be longer. They may start a bit earlier. We have at the moment 16-plus, 16 to 18; they may start at 15, but they will typically have three or even four years, ending up at a good level 3 standard. That is an issue and has huge implications for resourcing and funding, which David and others have raised.
Gordon Marsden
Q You are talking about length. There have been a lot of conversations, some of them a bit semantic, about the pre-apprenticeship route, particularly if we want young people to get good-quality apprenticeships. There is obviously the traineeship issue, or call it pre-apprenticeship, or whatever. Are you saying, Professor Fuller, that the actual process needs to be longer or that there need to be more preparatory steps to get young people—not only them, though they are the key component—who would not otherwise be able to compete for some of the high-quality apprenticeships that will be on offer?
Professor Alison Fuller: Probably both. If you look at attainment at 16, we have just had recent figures that show that still it is only just over 50% of young people who are achieving five GCSEs A to C grades, including English and maths. We know that those who are achieving that benchmark tend to stay on in the school route and take A-levels or a combination of A-levels and BTECs, which are sometimes called applied A-levels. That particular route has been quite successful in supporting social mobility and particularly progression to higher education.
Unless we start to eat into that population, we are talking about young people who have not attained that level at 16. We are proposing what we would all want to be a very high-quality technical education route within two years to get to what point? That is where we need to take a check and be realistic about what we might be able to achieve in two years on those kinds of numbers of contact hours and that kind of period.
We know that a good-quality level 3 standard is a really strong platform for career progression and engagement with employment. So for a good majority of our young people at 18 or 19, that is the kind of real aspiration we should be aiming for. It seems to me that without a much stronger commitment to what the resources are going to be, and what the container is going to be, if you unpack what a route is, we could end up with young people who have not made sufficient progress to reach the platform where they are going to have a secure stepping stone into the labour market and good-quality apprenticeships.
We know that at the moment 60%-plus of apprenticeships are at level 2 and that not many 16 to 18-year-olds are doing them—I think it is about 130,000. So there is quite a lot to do to ensure that all apprenticeships are as good quality as the fantastic ones that we know do exist.
Tracy Brabin
Q David, I have been told that in some circumstances members of staff such as receptionists without relevant qualifications or training are carrying out careers guidance in colleges as a tick-box exercise. Are you concerned that there is no careers guidance provision in the Bill?
David Hughes: I am very concerned if that story about reception staff is true, because it is an incredibly important area of education and, of course, it does not start at 16; it starts a lot earlier. I would echo a lot of what Alison was saying. We need to think about key stage 4 rather than just look at age 16-plus, because the decisions that get made by young people and their parents and carers are critical to their future. We need to think about introducing them to the world of work rather than just providing them with some information about courses, so the work experience and work placements that the Sainsbury report and the skills plan rightly concentrate and focus on are really important to consider for key stage 4, rather than just waiting until 16. We want some of the best young people with good achievements at GCSE at 16 going into the technical route and apprenticeships rather than what we have now, which is mostly that if you do well at GCSE at 16, you take an academic route.
We know that probably about £1 billion is wasted when young people go on an academic route for a year and then move off it because they find it is not suitable for them. We need to stop that happening because that wastes money and, more importantly, young people are using up a year of their life on something that does not stimulate them or motivate them. We have got to go back into key stage 4 rather than just wait. It is critical that we get college information, advice and guidance right, but let us think about careers education through school, not just right at the end, and let us think about persuading the best young people to do technical if that is the right thing for them, because it should be high-quality to attract them.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
Q What David Hughes and Professor Fuller have been saying is striking. I recall comparisons made some 25 years ago by the National Institute of Economic and Social Research and Professor Sig Prais between technical education in Britain and in Germany, Italy and Spain in particular, where they had up to 30 hours a week of contact-intensive pedagogic teaching over a period. In Britain it was nothing like that.
The underfunding of technical education and 16-to-19 education is noticeable. By contrast, at universities—I went there many years ago—you have a few lectures and a couple of seminars and tutorials, so the contact hours are much lower but the funding is much higher. Do you not think we have got this the wrong way around?
David Hughes: For lots of the technical routes, we are getting 12 to 14 hours of contact time, and that pales into insignificance compared to most of our competitors in the OECD. It is a really important issue. It is not just for technical, though; we have now got young people being offered only three A-levels rather than four AS-levels, and that is really shameful. It means that their opportunities to explore at 16 have been limited.
We really must address the investment issue to get the level of support that is required for young people. We are talking about young people who might have careers lasting 50 years-plus. They need a broad education to allow them to become learners, to think about continuous professional development, to change career probably two or three times and to be able to move when technology moves. I do not think that 12 to 14 hours of contact time for the 16-to-19 phase is enough. I do not think that the quality will be high enough or that the choice, even on A-level routes, is good enough, given the funding that is available.
Professor Alison Fuller: I am sure others will want to speak, but I would hate to say, just because we maybe think there is a big contrast in the numbers, that higher education is overfunded. I certainly would not want that message to come through.
There are a couple of other points. One is that a lot of vocational education—I still say that—happens in universities. The expansion of higher education has largely been in relation to vocational higher education courses in applied areas. A big cost of that is in equipment—lab space, technology, machinery and so on—and that same argument is behind suggesting that further education should really be better resourced. Good-quality technical education does not come cheap; the reality is that it is extremely expensive. We need very highly qualified vocational teachers—I include those who are moving in and out of employment, and I am sure Richard will speak about that, because he was part of the very influential report a couple of years ago from the commission chaired by Frank McLoughlin. It is a case of being serious about what it costs to provide a good-quality technical education, in terms of the people, resources, equipment and facilities.
Kelvin Hopkins
Q I wonder whether Mr Watkin would like to say something about sixth-form colleges and the squeeze on funding there.
Bill Watkin: We published a report recently about the impact of the current funding levels, which, although the Government have set them at a certain level, are set at that level following three significant cuts which have cost the sector about 17% since 2011. As David just said, we find that the number of A-levels being offered is increasingly only three rather than four; that minority subjects are being lost—it is not just the high-profile archaeology and history of art, but modern languages and sciences—and that the enrichment support, pastoral support, the activities after college and the careers guidance are all at risk because of low funding levels.
We are also finding, exactly as has been said, that international comparisons show we are not funding enough hours of tuition per week. In Singapore and Shanghai, for example, they are funded for approximately 30 hours a week, whereas in New South Wales it is 26 hours a week. In England it is about 15 hours a week. Of course, the impact of that is that students from more disadvantaged backgrounds will find it harder to use the untaught time. It is not just that there is not enough teaching time to cover the qualifications, but that the non-taught time has to be used effectively. It is much more difficult for young people from disadvantaged backgrounds to use non-taught time well.
Kelvin Hopkins
Q It is a major factor. When Michael Gove was Secretary of State, I asked him why we were having to recruit so many engineers from abroad. He said that we were not training enough ourselves because our mathematics was not good enough and we could not get them up to the standards required. Resource is surely what the problem is.
Bill Watkin: It is certainly one of the problems. There is also the shift in what qualifications are available. To move away from apprenticeships and technical professional education for a moment and talk about the academic curriculum, we have just seen, for example, the loss of use of maths and the loss of statistics from the range of qualifications available. That means that young people coming into a sixth-form curriculum looking to study maths only have one route available for them at the moment. That is almost a commercial decision made by awarding organisations, but it is enormously unhelpful to young people who want to support their studies in engineering and physics by following a course of maths because the only course available is an A-level in maths. We would like to see, for example, a core maths qualification and a part 2 core maths that has A-level branding and equivalence, so that there is an alternative to an A-level maths qualification.
Mike Kane (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
Q This is an interesting panel because it represents sixth forms and FE colleges. In Greater Manchester, where my constituency is, further education is a devolved function but sixth forms are not. We have just gone through an area review process, which I supported. Fortunately, we have strong civil servant and political leadership in Greater Manchester, but I can only describe the process as tortuous and complicated. It has come out of a number of reviews around mergers and synergies of FE colleges—it does not affect sixth forms. You get to that position and then have to enter negotiations between the FE colleges about co-operation. That really is a process of herding cats, in my opinion. There are things I would like to say, but this is an ongoing process so I will not say them in public for now, but the Government’s area review programme is going to be rolled out in places that are less well organised than Greater Manchester. It could be a recipe for chaos. Do the panel want to comment on that?
Richard Atkins: It would be best if I started. As you probably know, I have been the FE commissioner for about four weeks. I was not involved in chairing or attending the Greater Manchester review, although I know Theresa Grant, who chaired it. I am going to Manchester in the next three or four weeks to see how things are going and to talk to the individual colleges. I sat and observed the Education Committee scrutinising area reviews about two weeks ago. Generally, I think the process has worked reasonably well. Clearly they begin from a premise that each college is an independent corporation and therefore is able to make its own views. I accept that that can lead to what you describe as tortuous negotiations, because each college needs to be convinced and persuaded of the right solution.
We have now done waves 1, 2 and 3 of the five waves. Nearly 200 colleges have been through area reviews; some 88 of them are working towards merger, 50 of the sixth-form colleges are considering becoming academies, and 62 colleges have confirmed that they want to go for stand-alone status. We have done that in a remarkably short period. Colleges that are changing the nature of what they do can apply for a restructuring facility to support that. We have done that with a remarkable amount of co-operation and good will. I do not think the process is in any way perfect or a silver bullet that will resolve all the structural problems.
It became obvious in the Education Committee that it is different in each area. There are 37 area reviews, based on the local enterprise partnership areas, and experiences genuinely differ from one area to another. If you had told me at the beginning that at this stage, two thirds of the way through, we would have 88 colleges considering merger and that 62 stand-alones have had to carry out a rigorous analysis of their own data to be sure that they can stand alone financially—. I hope that what emerges from the process is a network in which more colleges are financially sustainable. I do not disagree that having those independent corporations gives governors the opportunity to make decisions for themselves, and therefore a high level of persuasion and influence is required to try to get the best results for learners.
In my new job, with my team of advisers, I am currently seeking to ensure that as often as possible, we get the right solution. I do not think it is a silver bullet. I do not think at the end of it we will have the perfect set of colleges across England, but I do think we will be in a significantly better place than we were when the process started only just over a year ago.
David Hughes: The Government have a choice. In Wales and Scotland, the Government decided to impose structural change, and in England they did not. There are pros and cons with both. We have to remember that we have had for the past 25 years in post-16 a managed market and a managed competition. It is probably fair to say that in the past four or five years, the management bit of that has been getting smaller and smaller, so we do have competition post-16. We recently challenged a decision by a regional schools commissioner to open a new sixth form in east London, because we think that sometimes competition really goes against the interests of young people in terms of quality and breadth of curriculum.
As Richard says, the area review process has been variable across the country. In some areas, it has helped enormously to move things forward quickly; in other areas, it has been more difficult and more awkward. We have got to think about the 2,100 school sixth forms, over half of which recruit fewer than 100 learners into year 12. The Government’s guidance suggests that you need at least 200 to make it both financially and educationally viable. In our autumn statement submission, we have asked, and we keep saying again and again, that if it is right for area reviews to happen for colleges with the rigour that Richard talked about and with really detailed five-year financial plans, why not do that with school sixth forms?
We have hundreds of thousands of young people learning in very small school sixth forms; you can make that work, but it is really difficult to get the breadth and quality right. We would really like to see that same rigour applied to school sixth forms. We know that some local authorities are starting to do that themselves, and it would be great to see Government supporting that and getting a framework for it across the country. You do not have to do it all at the same time but it would be nice to see that rolled through, in the interests of young people in terms of the quality and offer that they get.
Bill Watkin: I should just reiterate the difference between sixth-form colleges and school sixth forms, because they are not the same thing at all. I entirely agree with what David was just saying. To give an example, a sixth-form college straddles—usually successfully but sometimes slightly awkwardly and uncomfortably—two sectors: the FE sector and the schools sector. A sixth-form college offers a school-type curriculum, but it does so with economies of scale. For example, I recently visited a college that has 1,000 students studying maths A-level, and another where there are 400 students studying psychology A-level. These are not the small school sixth forms that David was just talking about; they are large colleges that are incorporated and therefore usually included in considerations about the FE sector. They were also included in the area review process, and there are those who say that it was not entirely helpful not to include school sixth forms while including sixth-form colleges—that did not necessarily make a great deal of sense.
The other consequence of straddling those two sectors is the relevance of the Bill to sixth-form colleges. Much of what is in the Bill will have only a very limited impact on a small number of colleges, and most of them will not be hugely touched by it. There are two areas of particular interest to sixth-form colleges: one is the insolvency regime and the impact on their finances, and the second is the applied general qualifications, which are enormously important to sixth-form colleges. Applied A-levels, BTECs and applied general qualifications are an enormously important part of a blended curriculum offered to students in sixth-form colleges as a pathway to high-end destinations such as universities; two students recently got into biomedical degrees at Russell Group universities with entirely BTEC provision. That is the sort of curriculum that sixth-form colleges offer.
Mike Kane
Q Richard, may I just challenge you a bit further? Say you have two successful FE institutions and the recommendation from the area review is to merge—this scenario is not a million miles away from what is going on—but they say, “No, we are independent institutions. Forget it.” We know that they can stand alone, but the review said that they should come together. What is the stick? What is the incentive? How do you get from the world as it is, to the world as you want it to be?
Richard Atkins: I have two points. If they were both very successful and could produce the sorts of data that David referred to, they would probably be stand-alone anyway. If they could produce five-year data that showed that they would be financially sustainable and would continue to be very successful, they would probably opt for stand-alone and we would probably support that. We have got one or two cases like that.
If they cannot produce those data and we and the steering group think that merger is the best solution—this is possible, and we are doing it in at least one or two cases at the moment—we will put that recommendation in the report. The college can still opt independently not to do it. That means it will never be able to access the restructuring fund; if something went wrong in future, it would not get access to the large restructuring fund that is currently available. Of course, it would be subject to the new insolvency regime if this legislation goes through, so the world looks quite a lot tougher for it post-2018 if it chooses to ignore the evidence-based work that my team will have done and will have shared with the local steering group.
It is possible to bury your head and say, “We don’t accept the evidence that you are putting in front of us. We can’t produce robust plans for the next five years, but we are going to go it alone anyway. We won’t co-operate with anyone.” By doing that, those governors would be taking a big risk—a risk for their learners as well as for themselves. Let us say that the insolvency legislation goes through. I am generally supportive of that legislation in this role, and as a principal—as you probably know, I stepped down from being a principal earlier this year, after 21 years—I would have been supportive of it. You are taking quite a risk if you are prepared to confound the recommendation that we would make, along with the other members of the steering group. But you are right to say that ultimately these colleges are independent, and as a long-serving principal, I got the highest level of job satisfaction when my college enjoyed a degree of independence.
David Hughes: We need to be a bit careful on this. I remember twice being asked by Ministers when I was in the civil service to try to show the evidence that large colleges were more effective—well, once with Bill Rammell and then with John Hayes to show that small colleges were more effective. There is no evidence of size making that much difference. Leadership makes the difference, and context is king. The competition that I talked about can undermine the best led college, but leadership is the key thing.
When the area review comes through with a recommendation for merger, the right thing for the colleges to do is to go through a due diligence process to examine the proposal further. In some circumstances, it is very correct that they make the decision not to go through with it, because they have to have at their heart the interests of their institution, their learners and their community. The area review will not always get that recommendation right. We have to have a degree of realism: the colleges are independent institutions, making their own decisions, and sometimes not to go forward with that recommendation might be the right thing.
Ian Pretty: The area-based reviews, as a general process, struck me as reasonable. Where it has become more challenging is that the key objectives were that you wanted fewer, larger, financially sustainable colleges; that was the premise on which the ABR process was set up. As I said earlier, the key thing for me is the extent to which you have looked at things such as the skills plan and the pathways first, putting in place things such as the insolvency regime, and then perhaps the ABR process would have been an easier process for many.
I think that it is absolutely right that further education colleges are allowed to be independent and remain independent. I recognise that that creates frictions in terms of their not necessarily agreeing to things, but that was how they were set up back in 1992. The risk with all this, in terms of the ABR and the current lack of an insolvency regime, is that I do not think you have the flexibility to be able actually to create the merged institutions that you might or might not want. I have a personal view that a solvent college merged with an insolvent college is not a solvent college; that causes problems afterwards.
Speaking as an organisation, I know that the association has representatives in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland—we have five colleges altogether there—and I think there is a lot that the Department for Education and Government can learn from the experience, particularly in Scotland, which did bang them together to create regional colleges. They could look at the successes and the failures. There are strong successes there, and there are colleges where the merger has not been so successful.
Gordon Marsden
Q I would like to continue on the theme of the implications of the area reviews and to come back to you, Richard, if I may. As you have already said, you have had a distinguished career as a college principal and have held leadership positions in the Association of Colleges, so at least for the moment, until you are covered in the bureaucracies, you can see from both angles. I want to ask you about the implications of 88 colleges moving towards merger. Sir Francis Drake famously said that
“it is not the beginning, but the continuing of the same, until it be thoroughly finished, which yields the true glory”.
Although, the question here is whether there will be glory or lots of pain along the way. I want to press you on two particular points.
The context of this, as Ian Pretty has alluded to, is two things: first, the critical National Audit Office report, which really bashed the former Department for Business, Innovation and Skills right around the head over some areas and set off alarm bells about financial stability—I am sure that played a major part in the insolvency regime set out in the Bill—and secondly, on a year-on-year basis, when we exclude apprenticeship funding, the trajectory of funding for FE colleges from Government has been going down.
The situation is febrile and, in some cases, is producing that number of mergers. Once they are merged, there are then of course the consequences for the staff and students. For example, when two colleges merge in a suburban or rural setting, the implications for them being able to maintain their courses, which are after all the viability of those colleges, will be significant if issues such as travel do not come into it. I see nothing in the Bill at the moment—and little has been said by Ministers—about where the funding to support that process will come from.
My second point picks up on what my colleague Mike Kane said earlier about his experiences with Greater Manchester—I am a native Mancunian by birth, so I understand the area’s issues well, and the cohesion that already exists, and lots of other areas will not have that cohesion. We are going through a period of significant devolution from Government of responsibilities and funding—for what it is worth, I am wholeheartedly in favour of that—and skills and FE will be affected. We have a situation in which things are beginning to be set in stone in combined authorities or mayoralties that are likely to have significant powers in the next couple of years, but they might well come along and say, “Actually, this didn’t include us. We want to unpick it.” What do you have to say to that?
Richard Atkins: May I take the first question first? Thanks for setting it in context. If I may do the same, you are right that I had a long career as a principal, and when I started there were 469 FE and sixth-form colleges; there are 321 today. Some of those mergers have been very successful, but not all. But just as in business and other walks of life, some mergers do succeed. For example, takeovers are often more successful than mergers, but some have been very successful. I remember when towns such as Derby had two or three colleges, but now they have one strong college. So I think that in a number of cases the mergers we are proposing through area reviews may well strengthen college provision in that part of the country, but I do not for one minute think that every one of them will work out as if a magic wand has made it all brilliant and successful immediately.
There is continuing work for me and my team as the agency calls us in to support the implementation of the area reviews, to work out where things are going in the right direction or how to get them back on track, or to come up with alternatives, if necessary, to keep the process going. I do not think that it will be a cliff edge as such. I am talking to colleges a lot about the fact that it is not a cliff edge. I do not see 31 March and the end of the area review steering groups as an absolute cliff edge.
Gordon Marsden
Q That is a fair point, but may I press you a bit further? I am not necessarily saying that all these mergers will be a disaster; what I am saying is that they will be challenging—I gave you two particular examples—and what I wonder is whether you think the Government have given this enough attention, in terms of contingency funding or, for example, support for travel for students who might be affected. Or do you think it is part of your job and that of your fellow commissioners, when you are deliberating on these things, to send a stronger message to Government on these matters?
Richard Atkins: There are two points. Mergers do not necessarily mean the closure of sites, so they do not mean the end of provision for students locally. Clearly, in rural areas, for example, the history of the sector has been that provision has not gone even when there have been mergers. When Truro and Penwith came together, that did not end provision in Penzance. In fact, it regenerated the provision in Penzance to a higher standard. You can see that across the country.
Certainly, in any recommendations for area review that I am involved in—I have said this a lot—the interests of the learners would be paramount in my mind. I know that finance is one of the factors driving this. I do not disagree with you about the fact that there are pressures on colleges. Non-apprenticeship funding has been challenging. The cuts that colleges have faced in terms of the adult skills budget have been as big as any across education, and of course we have had a demographic downturn in 16-year-olds that goes on for another five years, and more competition. So colleges are under real pressure.
However, when I go out and intervene—the second part of my role, as you know, is intervening in colleges that have had either an inadequate Ofsted assessment or serious financial concerns—I actually find that what is missing are some of the basics of governance, leadership and financial management. I do not always find that it is a lack of funds.
I would like to see more investment in the sector. As a long-standing principal, I spent a long time arguing for that. I hope that in the future we will see greater investment in technical education, but when I go out to look at some of the most acute cases, what I find is—you will see this from my predecessor’s reports as well and the lessons I share with the sector—lack of a costed curriculum plan, staffing costs well above average compared with turnover and so on.
Part of my job is to share that practice, both good and bad, with all the colleges so that people can keep on track. I do think that is part of my job. It is also part of my job to represent the interests of learners. I hope the insolvency legislation proposed in the Bill does not have to be used, but if it did, I hope that the administrator would call in our team. I hope that we would act in the interests of those learners to ensure that the right solution was found with the institution and, most importantly, the right solution was found for the learners.
I do not think that merger necessarily means rationalising the number of sites; it may do in an urban area. My first college, I seem to remember, reduced from 11 sites to two. In a reasonably small town there was plenty of room for rationalisation. The idea that you close provision down in a particular district, borough or town is not something I would be in favour of at all. I would be looking for merger solutions that bring together back-room services, avoid duplication and so on.
Equally, particularly at levels 1 and 2, I would ensure that provision continues to be delivered locally where those learners can best access it. I do not see merger as necessarily meaning a rationalisation of locality and sites, particularly at levels 1 and 2. When you get to level 3, just look at the distances that students travel to Bill Watkin’s sixth-form colleges around the country. If you go to levels 4 and 5, which I hope we are going to see more of, I find that learners are very happy to travel considerable distances for the right provision. I do not see mergers as necessarily wiping out, but I do see my role as representing the best interests of the learners, and I hope that is what I have brought with me from being a principal all those years.
I would love to see more investment in the sector, but that is not what I find when I go out and do interventions at the moment—I have done several already. I am not walking into the problems being caused simply by underfunding; I am walking into areas where there is room for considerable improvement in governance, leadership, management and financial management.
Gordon Marsden
Q But you will be aware, with the eagerness of people to travel distances, as you say, that they might be eager but, if they do not have the money to travel, they will not be able to.
Richard Atkins: Sure. Coming from a county such as Devon, I am acutely aware of that: there are the lowest take-home wages in the country in place such as Torridge and west Devon. I am very aware of the travel. That is why I say that provision at levels 1 and 2, in particular, needs to be as local as you can get it to the learners, whether in an urban or rural area. I agree.
Gordon Marsden
Q Indeed. We will keep a close eye on that.
Finally, I will come to Ian. We have been talking about insolvency provisions. You have experience in other areas that may be useful for taking an overview here. Let me say straightaway that I very much welcome the new provisions, but there seems to be a tension, which no doubt we will explore in our line-by-line scrutiny, between the role of the administrator and the natural commercial demands and pressures that will come from the traditional insolvency process. Have you had any thoughts about that? I am mindful that we do not want to paint a picture of the whole area being ripe for insolvency—David, you made that point to me not that long ago. Nevertheless, we must plan for the worst. Are you confident at the moment, notwithstanding welcoming the new provisions, that the balance is right regarding securing the interests of the staff and the pupils at the college that might be in trouble alongside those of the people who are the traditional creditors?
Ian Pretty: Broadly, yes. That is the slightly negative answer. It is right that we very much welcome the insolvency regime. I think that part of it has been adjusted. One of the concerns we had initially was with things such as winding-up orders. It looked like anyone from anywhere could issue a winding-up order on a college, which would have created some real dangers, particularly to the learners, in that they would suddenly have had nowhere to study, and to the employees, who would have had no jobs. I see that the proposed legislation has made adjustments to that, which is welcome.
On the role of the education administrator, it looks like a fairly standard role that you would see in any winding-up or any receivership or administration in the private sector. The biggest concern I have at the moment is about governance and liability in terms of disqualification under the Company Directors Disqualification Act 1986. I still have real concerns, as do our members, particularly as we are colleges that are very commercially minded, that, depending on how that is interpreted and perhaps put into secondary legislation, you might be at risk of ending up in a situation in which you deter private sector people from being on boards of governors.
You might also deter politicians and people from the third sector—from charitable trusts—from being on boards of governors. It is absolutely essential that the sector has that insight and know-how brought in to help it through the processes. If there is a risk of someone being told that they will be disqualified as a director, you can imagine that that is quite material in the private sector. That is the area we are most concerned about at the moment. On executive functions, on people like principals being disqualified, we have no problem with that.
On creditors and bankers—I know that you will be speaking to the banks this afternoon and I am sure that they will be able to tell you whether they are supportive of the provisions—
Gordon Marsden
I will not ask you about your experience with the banks.
Ian Pretty: Don’t ask! There are sections of the proposed legislation that talk about indemnities and guarantees given by the national authority, be it the UK Government or the Welsh Government. Again, that is fine. I am sure it must be giving some comfort to the creditors, but the risk, of course, is that the Government become the guarantor of last resort. It is noticeable that other sections of the legislation refer to the college that is in administration having to re-fund. It depends on the sums of money that are involved, but if you do that you run the risk of never getting out of the insolvency cycle.
Kelvin Hopkins
Q Two issues have been raised in the past few minutes. One is mergers, and I think that David Hughes suggested that there could be a case for not enormous colleges staying as independent colleges; some might merge, but each could be judged on its own merits. But that should not be elided with the issue of sixth-form colleges doing A-levels and the contrast with small school sixth forms. I should say that I am a 25-year governor of a sixth-form college, a former teacher in further education and the chair of the all-party group on sixth-form colleges. The statistics produced by the Sixth-Form Colleges Association overwhelmingly show that sixth-form colleges do better in educational achievements and in value for money, and the Government would do well to persuade schools, local authorities or whoever to pool their sixth forms and create many more sixth-form colleges. That would be enormously advantageous to the country, to education and to young people.
The other issue is governance, which Ian Pretty talked about. I agree strongly that we ought to have breadth in our governing bodies. I have to say that the governing body of which I am a member has invariably had at least two members qualified in accountancy and at least two with legal qualifications, as well as members from the education sector, including primary and secondary schools, and from local businesses. It is small, tightly knit, monocultural governing bodies—perhaps drawn only from small local businesses—that tend to get out of control and that do not do too well. There was one glaring example of that in my constituency—I will not mention its name, but many of you will know about it. It got into a disastrous state, although it has now been picked up by a superb new principal. That breadth of governance, with all sorts of skills as well as commitments, is crucial. I wonder whether you accept that that is a sensible way of doing things.
Richard Atkins: Shall I begin? First, on interventions and area reviews, the quality of governance is critical to the success of the college—more critical than many governors realise. I see that when I go into colleges that are not doing well. Getting the sort of governing body that you describe, with a broad base of skills and knowledge, is essential. I pay tribute to the chairs and to the role they play in the area review. They are giving up a huge amount of time and showing enormous commitment to their colleges by coming to all the steering group meetings and taking part in this. Governance is critical to the quality of colleges. I agree with David that the size of a college is not the key determinant; we have some successful big colleges, but we also have some very successful small, niche colleges. Logically, you would think “How do they survive?” but actually they are doing very well.
Another point that I did not make earlier is that, although area reviews are leading to these 88 mergers—I am thinking about the area review that we are about to start in your constituency; I was talking to the two principals last week—in some areas we are simply generating collaboration short of a merger at a level that we have not seen for a long time. I happen to know that those colleges in your area have already been to see me to talk about a new form of collaboration. If that is the best solution for that area, and the data underpin that, we will support it. Merger is not the single blind answer in every case; collaboration short of a merger may well be the best solution in certain cases.
David Hughes: I want to assert that governance in the FE sector is very strong. I know that the Minister is very interested in helping to improve it, but we have a sector with very strong governance. These are independent organisations taking big business decisions over the long term, and in the vast majority of cases they deliver a very high-quality service and achieve a surplus. For many years, in the Learning and Skills Council and the Skills Funding Agency, I did a job that was not dissimilar to the FE commissioner’s: overseeing all the colleges that were getting into difficulties. It is quite striking that, despite all the funding cuts and all the competition, there are still only 20 colleges in financial difficulties. That is a very familiar number; it was not dissimilar through the noughties and into this decade. Despite all those challenges, FE and sixth-form colleges have proved incredibly adaptable and have responded really well to the funding environment.
Let me just go back to the fact that higher education is generating a surplus of more than 4% every year. The Higher Education Funding Council for England thinks that that is a problem, because it is only 4%, but FE has had a deficit in the last two years. That is not a commentary on the lack of good leadership and governance, but on the competition and the funding levels. We need to address that; otherwise, we still will not have the technical and academic education we need for young people and adults in this country. These are really important issues. It is not easy, because the economy is not doing as well as anyone wants. We are looking to the autumn statement this week and perhaps the Budget in the spring. As Lord Sainsbury said this morning, how do you properly fund technical education in this country, possibly for the first time ever?
Bill Watkin: I will respond to your comments about the growth of sixth-form colleges in the context of the economies of scale they offer, the quality of qualifications, their outcomes and their support for young people. I would also add that, with the population shift, the number of 11 to 16-year-olds is growing.
There is an interesting example of a proposed merger between a sixth-form college and an academy chain. The school, which has a large sixth-form provision, is looking to shift all of its sixth form across to the sixth-form college, and then to build capacity for 11 to 16-year-olds to serve the community. That is an example of a successful outcome of an area review recommendation. There is also the opportunity for sixth-form colleges to roll out their successful brand and open up a free school 16-to-19 provision, as happened in Pontefract.
I am pleased that the Government are reviewing the approval process for small school sixth forms. We have been invited to contribute to that review. I sincerely hope that there will be a different way of considering applications to open up schools’ sixth forms.
Professor Alison Fuller: I certainly do not want to downplay the importance of governance and efficiency—we are talking about public money, after all—but I do not want us to lose sight of the issue of efficacy and quality, which we started the session off with. The initiatives in the Bill will potentially achieve a step change in quality if we get this right. We know how much this matters, because the population performs very poorly in the OECD’s programme for the international assessment of adult competencies survey—the adult skills survey, which is administered to 27-year-olds. The added value from 15 to 27 is very weak, in terms of the age range, when you compare us to countries that have strong upper secondary and strong vocational and technical systems. The legacy effects that we are suffering as a consequence of the current system and what happened historically are playing through into the economy, life chances and wellbeing more generally. The prize is huge, but so is the challenge. I am a little concerned that an over-emphasis on governance may deflect from the really difficult thing—the quality issue.
Ian Pretty: Can I build on the discussion on mergers, which I think is a healthy one? To me, the merger is the merger. It is very easy to say, “We are all going to merge together. It’s all going to be wonderful, and the world is going to be fantastic,” but if you look at the statistics across all sectors—commercial and public—only 25% of mergers ever achieve their objectives. Post-merger integration is the most difficult thing. Part of that is that you have to understand the logic of the merger—is it a logical merger or a “shotgun” merger?—because that can have an impact. The studies show that, when they are successful, it is because of culture and cultural fit. Within the FE sector, some colleges are more likely to be able to culturally fit with another than others.
Having been on the receiving end, when I was in government, of ministerial decisions to merge, I can attest to the fact that it is difficult. The merger between Inland Revenue and Customs and Excise was an interesting experience, to say the least—I promptly walked out the door and went to the private sector.
You have to look at the logic of the merger, and then there is the whole point about post-merger integration. We have talked about whether there is enough funding, and all that sort of stuff, but do you have the right leadership? Do you have the right cultural fit that will make the merger work? Does the merger have the right objectives?
The other thing that is worth looking at is that we see regional college groups merging, and we see alternative versions of collaboration. Devon recently announced the launch of the Devon Colleges Group. The colleges have not merged together; they are collaborating. That is quite significant. You will then see that some college groups are working very well as merged entities or as groups. Hull, for example, is a successful college that has HE sections and FE sections. Warwickshire has merged a large number of colleges together, but it has not got rid of the place. It can therefore maintain community.
Going back to one of my earlier points, it is worth looking at the experience of places like Scotland. North East Scotland College has been a highly successful regional college group around Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire, and it has campuses that are 40 miles apart and still work—it still succeeds. It is worth looking at those models, but it is about the objectives of the merger. There must be a clear post-merger integration plan, because that is where you are going to get more success, rather than just saying, “We need to knock this together to get a smaller number of colleges.”
Justin Tomlinson
Q Building on Ian’s comments about the mergers, we had a similar discussion this week in the centre of the universe that is Swindon, where New College and Swindon College are considering whether to merge formally, whether to collaborate further or whether to continue with the status quo. Ian highlights that the success rate is only some 25%, and it comes down to leadership. What more can be done to engage with local employers? They could provide expertise and leadership in the next wave of governors—colleges are all chronically short of that—thereby improving the culture. Crucially, that could lead to opportunities for the students later on, because too often employers are not being engaged. What more can be done?
The Chair
May I ask for short answers?
Ian Pretty: The quick answer is that college principals ought to be working with local businesses to understand whether their post-merger integration plan is really viable and will work. My other point goes back to the concern I raised about one of the clauses in the Bill—that governors run the risk of being disqualified if the college is made insolvent. You have to look at those sorts of things. You have to look much more closely at how businesses want to interact with FE colleges and how colleges can learn from business.
David Hughes: Richard mentioned Derby College, and I was involved in the three-way merger 15 years ago. What we did, and the lessons are pertinent today, is that we created clarity for employers about where to go. In places like Swindon there is a lot of good sense in having one college so that employers can say, “There is one place for us to go.” I would not underestimate the big difference that simplicity can make.
It is obviously a lot more than that. It is also about having staff in the college who will go out and be credible with employers. It is perhaps about picking out the level 4 and 5 specialisms on which the college needs to focus, bringing employers together around those specialisms and allowing them proper agency to influence what gets delivered—making sure that they are contributing to the curriculum, offering work experience and work placements, and so on. It is about properly engaging for the long term, rather than just the short term. It can be done. Again, it requires really good leadership and governance within the college, and it requires employers to step up to the plate and meet halfway. Co-creation is what you want. You want for both sides to feel that they are contributing to something.
Justin Tomlinson
Q What is done to share that best practice?
David Hughes: The AOC works quite hard to share that practice. We have a governors’ council, and we share that practice with governors, principals and senior leaders. We work across the piece. We also support the Education and Training Foundation.
Richard Atkins: I am just going to come back with two or three things. First, the Swindon issue, as you will know, is a live issue. I am chairing the Gloucestershire, Swindon and Wiltshire area review at the moment—
Justin Tomlinson
I will be writing to you soon.
Richard Atkins: That is a live issue. Secondly, the relationship between a principal and their governing body is interesting. I always felt that one of the key elements was to work with my chair and clerk to recruit governors. That was a non-stop piece of work. When you are out and about in your town or community with employers, you are all the time thinking about people who might in the future make a governor. If you get it right, you will end up with a waiting list, and there are colleges with waiting lists. If you do not do that engagement and do not keep on top of it all the time, you will end up going around saying, “No one wants to be a governor.” For me, it is a key element of the principal’s job to work very closely with the chair and clerk to identify potential recruits who can then obviously go before a search committee and all the rest. I hope that the area review for your area, and particularly for the town of Swindon, is able to come to the right collective answer.
The Chair
Bill Watkin, if you can be short, I would be grateful, because Tracy Brabin wants to come in with a question.
Bill Watkin: Yes. I would like to draw together the strands of merger due diligence and the insolvency regime. The insolvency regime has an impact before insolvency is even a reality. Since the publication of the insolvency regime, banks and pension fund managers have been responding differently to colleges. A group of colleges in the south-east, for example, immediately after the publication of the insolvency regime—which I should say colleges welcome—were upgraded to a maximum risk rating in terms of their pension contributions, which of course means that they are able to divert less money to teaching and learning and have to negotiate less favourable repayment terms. It is the same thing with bank loans. Banks and pension fund managers are all being more cautious because of the insolvency regime, and that is having an immediate impact.
Tracy Brabin
Q Thank you for squeezing me in very quickly at the end, Mr Bailey. I would like to pick up on something that was said earlier. You said there is no cliff edge when it comes to insolvency. If students are already on the course, how swiftly will they be moved to better provision so the lights are not turned off and there is not asset stripping around them? How much transparency will there be for prospective students if a college is under review and about to be declared insolvent?
Richard Atkins: I will start, because I would be likely to be involved—or my team would. I really hope that this legislation is not used, but it is very important to have it in the cupboard. I agree with Bill. Most principals welcome this. There is a lack of clarity in the 1992 legislation, which has led to some colleges getting exceptional funding on a long-term basis, which is not awfully good for neighbouring colleges or the sector and stops people getting their house in order. Generally speaking, people welcome this but hope it will never be used, and that is my position.
If it were ever used, there is a special administration regime, and the Secretary of State can declare that within 14 days and step in. The administrator, who would be commercially appointed, would almost certainly turn to me and my team to do just what you have said. My primary interest would be the welfare of the students. First, we would want teaching and learning to continue in that place, and we would certainly want students to complete their courses. Secondly, we would want to find the best institutional solution for that organisation, which would not necessarily be shutting it down and moving all the students. There is a range of options—a merger is one, but there are others.
I would like to think that this would be the absolute last resort and might never be used, but it might focus governors and principals very firmly on their financial responsibilities as well as their educational ones, and it might enable me and my team to intervene earlier. Earlier intervention is a key part of this to prevent things from getting to the position where, by the time we arrive, there have already been successive exceptional funding payments, which leads to an unhelpful culture of money just being paid out. David will remember from when he was involved in these sorts of rescues that if you get into a cycle of exceptional funding payments, that is not helpful. This draws a line. I hope it is a line that never needs to be crossed, and I and my team would always be there, working with the funding agency to look after the very best interests of the learners and not disrupt their programmes.
Ian Pretty: Clause 14 of the draft legislation sums it up well—in particular clause 14(2). What is quite critical to me—I am very supportive of it—is that it puts the loan at the heart of what is going to happen. That gives protections.
The Chair
Order. I am sorry to have to interrupt, but it is necessary for me to do so to conform to the programme motion. If you would like to submit in writing any further comments you might have made, I am sure that the Committee would be happy to consider them. I thank all the witnesses on behalf of the Committee. It has been a very comprehensive discussion.
Technical and Further Education Bill (Second sitting)
Tuesday 22nd November 2016
(8 years ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Technical and Further Education Act 2017 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 22 November 2016 - (22 Nov 2016)
The Chair
Welcome, gentlemen. We will now hear oral evidence from Ernst & Young, Lloyds Banking Group, Santander and Barclays. For this session we have until 3 o’clock. Gentlemen, could you please introduce yourselves with your name and which company you are representing?
Richard Robinson: My name is Richard Robinson and I work for Barclays bank; I am the head of education at Barclays.
Gareth Jones: I am Gareth Jones; I am the national head of education for Santander.
Richard Meddelton: I am Richard Meddelton; I am the regional director responsible for education, charities and government for Lloyds bank.
Stephen Harris: I am Stephen Harris; I am an insolvency practitioner with Ernst & Young.
Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)
Q 41 Yes. Good afternoon, gentlemen; I see that it is all gentlemen, which might raise some interesting questions for the future. Obviously, you have been invited here this afternoon. We hope you have a generous overview of the further education sector, but you are principally here this afternoon as the lenders and, possibly, subsequently the enforcers—if I may put it that way. We are particularly interested in the parts of the Bill that have the details of the insolvency process.
Perhaps I could start by asking this genuinely open question to each of you in turn. We had some discussion on this insolvency regime this morning and its genesis may be disputed, or it may come from a number of areas, but undoubtedly one of those—I quoted this earlier—was the concerns expressed in the National Audit Office report in 2015 about the financial situation of a number of FE colleges. You will probably be familiar, in some shape or form, with that report, because I imagine it would have sat somewhere on your risk profiles. As I said this morning, I do not want to over-exaggerate that threat, because doing so would be very unfair to the FE sector. May I ask each of you to say briefly, from your own experience, whether the events of the past couple of years, including that NAO report and the inclusion in this Bill of a fairly detailed insolvency process with some novel features, have already sharpened—or are likely to—your willingness or otherwise to loan to colleges? Who would like to start on that?
Richard Robinson: I think it is fair to say that the deterioration in the financial performance of the sector over the past couple of years has led to a tightening of the terms of finance available to further education colleges.
Our experience to date has been that when colleges have got into financial difficulty, they have been helped out by one of the agencies—be that the Skills Funding Agency or the Education Funding Agency—that have provided exceptional funding support to help turn those colleges around and keep them going. I think we are going to allow colleges to become insolvent. From a creditor’s perspective, that is a worse position than the one we are in now, simply because, from our experience, we know what is going to happen. However, the proposed insolvency regime has been well thought through, and the points that we made through the consultation process have been well listened to. Our preference as a creditor is still that it is not introduced, but if it is, there are a number of things that will help creditors and most of those have been well reflected in the Bill.
Gareth Jones: I agree that, over the last couple of years, lending into the sector has become a little more difficult and challenging. Overall, from our perspective, we are still very supportive of the sector—still looking to grow our exposure to the sector and grow our lending book. On the Bill and the proposed insolvency regime, we are actually supportive of the clarity that they provide.
Gordon Marsden
Q Mr Meddleton from Lloyds—with whom I have been for 43 years, so I have an active interest in Lloyds—I am not going to ask you to divulge any commercially sensitive information but I think it is an open secret that you are rather a large lender to a rather large number of colleges. Is that correct?
Richard Meddelton: Yes, that is correct. We are a significant lender in the FE sector, as are a number of other banks around the table. We have supported the sector for many years.
Gordon Marsden
Q May I ask you something, then, on the basis of that long experience—almost as long as my time banking with you? Obviously, over that period, there have been high points and low points for the economy, and there have been changes in regime and Government responsibility. How would you characterise the current situation from your perspective —obviously being supportive, but at the end of the day having to be commercial lenders? How would you characterise the current situation in terms of risk for your bank, and what do you think the proposed insolvency regime does for that?
Richard Meddelton: In answer to your first question, the sector is going through a number of difficulties at the moment. My colleagues have highlighted the reasons, which I would agree with, on that. From our perspective, yes, it is a sector that certainly has a number of stresses within it at the present time. Notwithstanding that, as a major lender in the sector we remain extremely committed to it.
The Chair
Mr Meddleton, could you speak a bit louder please, so that we can hear you down here?
Richard Meddelton: I will try to. I don’t have the loudest of voices.
The Chair
Or get closer to the microphone. Thank you.
Richard Meddelton: We are, as a bank, extremely committed to the sector and we remain so. The SAR as it is proposed—if that is your second question—does give us some cause for concern, certainly in terms of continuing to lend on a long-term basis. If you look at the current area review and start going through, they are very welcome. I am not sure, going forward, that it is particularly easy for us to make a longer term lending decision based on the performance of the college as it stands now and in the short term.
Gordon Marsden
Q If I could just add to that, and for the benefit of the other witnesses, who I assume were not here this morning, we had a fairly full discussion as to what the economic impact of the area reviews would be. I think it is fair to say that the FE commissioner took a slightly rosier view than I did of where some of those mergers might end up. Of course, mergers in principle run along the lines of attempting to provide greater stability, but we heard from another member of the panel this morning that that was not always his experience. Obviously, you will have to take a measured view on that. The commissioner disclosed today—of course, the area review process is not complete—that some 88 colleges are likely to be involved in merger issues. Is that something that would be a material fact when you were going to your colleagues and talking to them about the spread of risk in the FE sector and your continued loans over the next one to two years?
Richard Meddelton: Could you clarify the question for me please?
Gordon Marsden
I am sorry. We heard this morning from the FE commissioner that there are up to 88 colleges that are potentially involved in the process of merger, from the area reviews. The implications of merger may be positive, as the FE commissioner was keen to emphasise, or negative, if they go wrong, and if the number of students declines and if there are all sorts of problems, which would include the potential for financial instability. I was asking you whether the area reviews, and the number that I have just given to you, would be a significantly material factor for you when you are presumably discussing with your colleagues the likely factors of risk for lending over the next two years.
Richard Meddelton: Certainly we understand the area review process and the reasons for it. I would say that we look at each one in detail. We certainly welcome the area review process. We think it is a positive step forward. As you rightly say, not all mergers necessarily work and work well, if you draw parallels with corporate life. Nevertheless, we see a lot more good than not in what is being proposed.
Gordon Marsden
Q Finally, I wonder if I could come to you, Mr Harris. You are set apart from your colleagues, but only set apart in the sense that you have been there, done that and bought several T-shirts, probably. That is why we are very pleased to have you here today, because you have been through situations where there has been a special administration regime.
You will have seen in the Bill that there are clauses that spell out the nature of what the special administration regime would be. I note your comments; I have read your comments on the Bill. You perfectly reasonably hedge your bets about the outcome. You have asked the most pertinent question that we probably all need to ask—a focus for the responsible authority creditors and the insolvency practitioner: who will foot the bill for the greater good? Perhaps the Minister will be forthcoming on that at some point in the future—I do not know. I want to ask you what you think, because we have this very technical clause about the way in which colleges can have more than one corporate identity and legal identity. Could you comment on the implications of the distribution of that, in the insolvency part of the Bill, on the way in which colleges are defined, whether as corporate entities or some other body?
Stephen Harris: May I just clarify the clause that you refer to?
Gordon Marsden
I am referring to clause 22 on the general functions of the education administrator, which draws a distinction
“where the further education body is a company”.
I am interested in the extent to which that would affect all FE colleges that found themselves in this situation, as opposed to a particular number.
Stephen Harris: Paragraph 22—
Gordon Marsden
It is clause 22, paragraph 43—
Stephen Harris: I am sorry to appear stupid, but I do not seem to be able to read off the same clause to which you refer. I am anxious that I do.
Gordon Marsden
My apologies—it is clause 22. I am looking at “General functions” of the administrator—subsection (3).
Gordon Marsden
It might also be helpful to refer you to the explanatory notes, which prompted my question. They state:
“The education administrator must also, so far as it is consistent with the special objective, carry out the functions in a way that achieves the best result for the body’s creditors as a whole…Where the further education body is a company, subsection (4) requires the education administrator to carry out their functions in a way that achieves the best result for the company’s creditors as a whole and, subject to that, the company’s members as a whole.”
I found that rather opaque and not clear in its implications.
The Chair
We are sending you down a copy of the explanatory notes as well.
Stephen Harris: Thank you. I do empathise with your observation that it may be opaque. I also had to put a question mark there when I read it for the first time. This is my take on the legislation as proposed, as is writ in the draft Bill: it is very clear—this is the way I have read it, but others may differ—that the overarching or transcendental purpose is to minimise the disruption and to carry on, within certain bounds. Then there are what seem to me to be some slightly subservient points. That is not to diminish them, but an office holder would have to step back and consider those people who fall into the category of subsection (3)—people with special needs—and how that dovetails into the way he is discharging his duties. Then you get to the issue of having to carry on in the interests of the creditors. I think there is a question when you read that: is that something that clicks into place when an office holder has optionality as to the route that he might take through the maze, or is that something he has to balance with the overarching purpose itself? If you say to me that it is not exactly clear on the face of the drafting, I have to concur with you; I stalled on the very same point myself.
Mr Ranil Jayawardena (North East Hampshire) (Con)
Q I refer Members to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests; I used to work for Lloyds Banking Group and spent time in corporate banking, dealing for a time with education, community and government customers. I will come to Lloyds in a moment, but first, Mr Jones, you said in your written evidence to the Committee that you think that this is a positive step and that lenders will have certainty. Can you explain the uncertainty that exists to you as a lender today?
Gareth Jones: From Santander’s perspective, the uncertainty has always been around the funding agencies and, when a college is struggling to make its payments, effectively where that interim funding will come from. There is also uncertainty about whether the current insolvency applies to college corporations at present. From a risk perspective, when we assess the underlying risk of a transaction, there has always been that uncertainty and we have had to make assumptions in the background. If the Bill is passed, the certainty it will provide is positive for us.
Mr Jayawardena
Q Despite what Mr Robinson said a moment ago about the challenges in the sector, if I understand what you said, Mr Jones, after you, as Santander, have done that analysis of the credit risk, you would like to lend more into the further education sector.
Gareth Jones: Yes.
Mr Jayawardena
Q Mr Meddelton, given what Mr Jones said, why do you say that this proposal presents banks with such significant challenges? Surely the certainty that Mr Jones just outlined is a good thing.
Richard Meddelton: Certainly to have a framework, as proposed, is a positive step. The issue for us is to do with the powers that the administration would have under a special administration regime. For example, if we were a secured creditor and the college went into an SAR, what could happen—I appreciate it is a “could”, and that it is untested—is that the administrator could run the college for what I think is an undefined period, unless I have misunderstood the drafting, and it could be at a loss, notwithstanding the fact that some very laudable principles are driving this.
As a lender, the ranking—again, it is unclear at the moment—may well sit behind a creditor. In addition, as we interpret it, even as a secured creditor the security could be transferred into a separate entity. Again, I understand the practical considerations for that, but at the same time the debt could be left in the old college, or it could be transferred. Again, there are “know you customer”—colloquially, we tend to call them KYC—considerations.
Mr Jayawardena
Q But you also said in your written submission that Lloyds traditionally viewed this as quasi-Government risk. That is your own internal credit rating of this sector, and that is based on your own judgment. Surely when it comes to determining whether, to use your words, there should be further long-term decisions and long-term lending in this sector, that would again be a matter of using your own credit rating and credit risk process. More certainty is provided under this proposal than you currently have. You said that you assume that that option would be for the failing college to be financed by Government funding, but there is no guarantee of that today, so surely you are better off.
Richard Meddelton: There is no guarantee of that today, but under the current system if we have security, we have priority. The reality is that we have viewed it as quasi-Government because in the past—obviously the past is no prediction of the future—that money has been forthcoming, as you know, having worked in Lloyds corporate yourself. If there were greater clarity about what would actually be done in a special administration regime, that would obviously give us some comfort.
Mr Jayawardena
Q One final point, if I may: Lloyds has set out that it wants to “help Britain prosper”. You have challenged the SAR regime, which could lead a college to be administered in a separate regime for a period of time. You would, I am sure, agree that it is right for students to be able to finish their studies and not face disruption, because that would not be to the values that you hold dear.
Richard Meddelton: Yes. I appreciate that it is a dichotomy, but yes.
Mr Jayawardena
Q Can I ask Mr Jones and Mr Robinson a yes/no question? Under the current system, you would not want to close down a college and sell off their assets even if you did have security today, because you would want to allow those students to continue their education. That is the right thing to do, is it not?
Richard Robinson: The interest of the learners has to come first.
Gareth Jones: I completely agree.
Richard Meddelton: We said in our response that we would see the interest of the lender as coming first.
Mr Jayawardena
Q So Lloyds Banking Group, today, would sell off a college site even if people were in the middle of their A-levels and needed to complete their courses.
Richard Meddelton: I think that is highly unlikely. The reality is that we would always work with the college, with the administrator. Our history has been that of a responsible lender, helping Britain to prosper, and that will continue, regardless of the site.
Mr Jayawardena
Q So ultimately all three of you are in agreement that a college today would continue in existence until you had unwound the whole of the financials behind it and had found a solution in the interest of the learners and that, in the future, the same would be true.
Richard Robinson: The difference is that at the moment we have experience of what happens when colleges get into difficulty. Our experience today is that we, as lenders, work with the agencies—the SFA and the EFA—to find a solution. The Government have put money into those situations. We are now saying that we will allow colleges to become insolvent, and that we will put an insolvency regime in place that rightly puts students first. We absolutely agree about that, but the difference is that we have no experience of what happens in that case. Therefore, we have to try to make lending decisions today that will apply in the future, when the regime is in place, and we do not know whether they will apply because the regime is not tried and tested.
Mr Jayawardena
Q Mr Harris, this question is for you, given your expertise. At the moment, the banks are saying they have no understanding of what would happen in the future but they do know what happens today. But what happens today is based on a bit of a guess, a bit of luck and a bit of Government funding coming in. Perhaps the situation will be clearer to banks in the future, but surely having this clear framework set out in law is a good thing?
Stephen Harris: I feel that very cogent points could be made in saying it is a good thing. In an insolvency environment that is unclear, because you start to add in a peppering of trusts and unusual organisations and things that are not necessarily the bread and butter of corporate insolvency, when colleges start to get into difficulty the legal bill starts to rise, as people have to seek clarity about how the matter will legally be dealt with. In the draft Bill, an element of clarity is brought to the sector as a whole, which in the long term people might appreciate. I cannot speak on behalf of the banks, but I can see that there is a lot of clarity in the Bill about what is a very specialised sector.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
Q I will give a bit of background first. For 23 of the past 25 years I have been a governor of a sixth-form college and, before incorporation, I was chair of governors of a larger college of higher education, which was largely FE. In the sixth-form college we had internal expertise of the highest order. The previous experience was less good. I have said many times now that one of the important things for a governing body is for it to have accountancy expertise, with at least two independent qualified accountants and at least two independent legally qualified people. That makes a difference. In the college I am at now, the vice-principal in charge of finances is a chartered accountant and does a superb job.
Do you take an interest in the internal financial controls of colleges or do you just say, “Well, if they get into difficulty, we’ve got the security of the college assets and we’ll just take some of that”? Do you take an active interest or stipulate any kind of requirement about how finances are managed internally in the colleges?
Richard Robinson: Absolutely, yes. The quality of management and governance is one of the key criteria we look at when we are assessing the risk. We do not just lend the money and then disappear; this is a relationship for us. We go and see our college clients several times a year to talk about what is happening in their business and the challenges to the sector.
One thing we do is help management with their skill sets. For example, what has happened in the sector over the past couple of years, with the challenges it has faced, is new to a lot of managers. It has been quite difficult to manage through that process. We bring to bear the experience we have of dealing with lots of businesses to help them with that process.
We have often pointed out that maybe they do need some different experience on the board—people with different skill sets. I agree that there should be governors with a diverse set of experiences. That should definitely include accountants, as having people with financial literacy is very important.
Gareth Jones: Our approach is very much the same as Barclays, in the sense that the governance structure of the college, the key management team and our appraisals make us consider our overall lender proposal and whether we are willing to advance funds to that college. Fundamentally, it is the management who are in control of the college and their strength is strategically important to our lending decision.
Kelvin Hopkins
Q All that being said, I know of one college in recent times that came to the brink of disaster, until the principal was effectively chased out of town. It has now been picked up and restored but it was in a parlous situation with internal financial abuses—I can speak freely because we are private in Parliament; that is what was going on. Clearly someone was lending money to the college, presumably, but it was effectively out of control. Is that a concern to you, that such a thing can still happen?
Richard Robinson: We work very closely with the management teams and with the SFA and the EFA. If we were in a situation where we thought that the management was doing inappropriate things or had been run out of town—
Kelvin Hopkins
Q Even illegal things, I may say.
Richard Robinson: Even illegal. That is the sort of thing that would cause us quite a lot of concern. We have a close working relationship with the agencies and that is the sort of thing we would discuss with them. We do not have powers as a lender to remove people. We do have the ability to go and talk to governors, so if there were an issue with the principal, another of the things that we would do is speak to governors about that. We would also have conversations with the agencies. I do not know the college in question, but that does sound like an extreme position.
Kelvin Hopkins
Q Do you think Government ought to take much more of an active interest in what is going on in their colleges? Do you think an appropriate clause in the Bill might be helpful, to ensure that internal procedures are appropriate and disciplined?
Richard Robinson: Governors or Government?
Kelvin Hopkins
Q Both really: management and Government. Do you think there should be something specific in the Bill saying the sort of things I have said about having qualifications among governors and an inspection regime that works—as it did not in that case—to ensure that financial arrangements are not being abused?
Richard Robinson: I am not a governance expert, so I do not know if there is a clause that can be put in to help that. I do agree that the sector can always improve management and governance. No business can say it has perfect management and governance, so constant improvement in those is a good thing.
Richard Meddelton: I think the insertion of a clause in the Bill along the lines you have suggested would certainly help and be welcome, although, like the other Richard, I am no legal expert.
I would answer your first question in terms of how we look at the governance and management of a college. From a Lloyds banking perspective, we take a great deal of interest in the make-up of the management of the college. That would include the expertise of the board of governors. That is an ongoing practice in what we do. We have not got down to stipulating how many accountants or lawyers need to be there, but we would certainly look for a good mix, so that they are professionally managed and so that we have a fruitful long-term relationship over many years.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
Q It is interesting to hear your views. It seems as if there is broad support, at least at the right end of the table, for the direction of travel here. One of the proposals in the legal framework is the role of education administrator, ensuring that the quality of educational provision is continued. Could each of the panel members describe whether they are comfortable with this role as being a helpful addition and whether it should be changed or enhanced in any way?
Richard Robinson: Obviously we know what a normal administrator does, in a normal administration situation with companies. We do not know what the education administrator is going to do, beyond what is written in here—the legal, written thing versus the practical reality. For us, the role seems to be broadly balanced between making sure that the interests of learners are put at the front, which is the right thing to do, and making sure that creditors are not forgotten. There are probably two other things that would certainly help, and both have been touched on by other people. The first is some clarity about who funds the administration—who funds the insolvent college during insolvency—because that could be for a number of years. It is very important for us to know that when making lending decisions. The second point is the legal position of secured creditors, which Richard has mentioned. Again, further clarity about that would be helpful. Other than that, I think it is pretty clear in the draft Bill.
Gareth Jones: From Santander’s perspective, overall we were supportive of the draft Bill and of that role as well.
Richard Meddelton: I have got nothing further to add.
Stephen Harris: If I can just clarify, your question was about the role of the insolvency office holder as an education administrator—
David Rutley
It is about whether the role would add anything.
Stephen Harris: From an insolvency practitioner’s perspective, it is worth standing back and recognising that insolvency practitioners are not train drivers, or people who spend their life in the railway or the London Underground, when it comes to a special administration regime, nor are they specialist property developers. They come to each situation afresh. One comforting thing that insolvency practitioners bring is recognising when they need to keep in place the existing management structure in a corporate sense, or the workforce in a pastoral sense, recognising that those people have skills and qualifications that they as an office holder do not necessarily have, and also recognising that they can bring outside specialist help to continuing the duties of education administrator, should the need arise. That is all part and parcel of any trading insolvency regime, and I would imagine that any office holder stepping into the role of an education administrator would have that at the forefront of their mind. I do not think it presents a unique challenge; it is very similar to all the other special administration roles. There is an extra dynamic—there is a pastoral element.
Tracy Brabin (Batley and Spen) (Lab)
Q Thank you for your candour in your response to the Bill. What are the implications for the future willingness of creditors, given the reluctance you have mentioned of lenders such as yourselves to lend now to colleges? There is a lot of excitement around this Bill because there is an opportunity for money from big business to provide apprentice opportunities. Will that be held back by a reluctance from banks and so on to lend to this community?
Richard Robinson: For the moment, for most creditors, the status quo is the preferred position just because of our experience of what happens when things go wrong. That said, I think the Bill has been carefully considered and, apart from the two points I made before, I do not think this is a sector where you are going to see lenders just disappear altogether. But it is going to be harder to support in the same way that we used to. Banks used to be able to lend for a very long period of time—30 years on an unsecured basis—but that will change. I do not think that it will result in colleges not being able to get funding at all, but the terms and conditions will probably be different from what they were in the past.
Tracy Brabin
Q So you are suggesting that it will be more expensive to borrow?
Richard Robinson: Not necessarily more expensive; it could just be that the loans have to be shorter or have to be secured versus unsecured. Cost is just one element of the terms and conditions of a piece of finance.
Gordon Marsden
Q I just want to return to the issue of cost-benefit analysis, in terms of the increased risk that will come about. Given the factors that have led to this insolvency provision having to go into the Bill, it is obvious that the Government recognise that there are increased risks in the future. That is not necessarily to say that the whole edifice is going to collapse, but it does mean that you as banks have to make difficult decisions about how you calibrate that risk.
I was struck again, going through the Bill, that there is a creative tension—hopefully it is creative and not destructive—between the needs of the education administrator and the traditional needs of the creditors. I was struck particularly by a phrase in your submission, Mr Harris, where you said, “I note also that the Bill contains measures such that a creditor or appropriate national authority may apply to court if it is dissatisfied with the conduct of an education administrator.” No one is suggesting that the majority of colleges are going to go through the procedure, but if a college was going through that procedure and the sums of money were quite large, it would not necessarily be surprising if a creditor did challenge the education administrator in that fashion.
My question is twofold. First, Mr Harris, you have already expressed the big question: where is the money going to come from? Would that presumably increase the likely legal costs to which you referred in such a way that it could make it a very expensive process? Secondly, and this is for you three gentlemen generally, it seems to me that what is coming out of this afternoon’s session is that you would welcome greater clarity, whether in guidance notes or even a new clause, although Governments are reluctant to put some details into new clauses, to understand what the Government are prepared to take on board—after all, it is the Government who are introducing the proposal—and how much security, whether quantified as a financial amount or as a supporter of last resort, you would require from the Government.
Stephen Harris: May I just stand back and piggyback on your first question? I have actually been asking myself, since you asked me the question, how I got comfortable with this last Thursday afternoon. Clearly, I was; there was a holistic package of measures here, which I felt broadly work. I would like to return very briefly to the issue of clause 22 for a moment. In subsections (4) and (5) we see the crucial words placed between commas,
“so far as is consistent”
with the overarching duty. Having stalled on it on the first read, when I went back and saw those words it became reasonably clear to me that the transcendental purpose—the carrying on for the education—is the thing that matters.
We therefore turn to the question of funding. We come full square to clause 25 and the suite of options set out in it:
“Grants and loans where education administration order is made.”
Then we travel further into the draft legislation—indeed quite a long way to the back. This is a bit of a technical area, but it is worth focusing on for a minute. The administrator will receive grant money from the funding body, and he will spend it on wages, salaries and the upkeep of the college. The fundamental question is: where is the deficit funding going to come from? Of course, he will have to borrow. Borrowing money in an insolvency process carries some technicalities. The overarching technicality is: where is the repayment of the loan going to rank? In conventional, vanilla administration, it is generally accepted that if the administrator borrows during an insolvency process, his obligation to repay the bank or the funder carries a very high priority unless it is agreed with the bank that it will be demoted for one reason or another. We need not explore that here.
In the suite of options that are available here, there is a technical clause that enables the lending authority to position the option for the repayment of the loan. Broadly—if I may put it this way—it can come at the front of the queue, the middle of the queue or the back of the queue. When I say the queue, I mean that if you take the general body of creditors as a whole, the repayment of the loan for the deficit funding can rank ahead of those creditors, alongside them or behind them.
Turning to your question, I think that what we see here is a recognition that one size might not necessarily fit all. There is probably a sense that it is not wise to be prescriptive at a total level, so having a suite of options that can be adjusted to specific circumstances may be an appropriate balance at the moment. There will be tension when it comes to borrowing the money, and I have little doubt that the funding authority will set out its stall on which it is prepared to make the money available.
Gordon Marsden
Q Just to clarify, when you say the funding authority, are you talking about the Skills Funding Agency, the Government or some mixture?
Stephen Harris: I think the words used in the Bill are “the appropriate national authority”. An incoming office holder is going to be faced with something that ranks at the front of the queue, in the middle of the queue or behind the queue.
Gordon Marsden
Q No disrespect—I think your analysis is elegant and understandable—but that is not going to make the decisions of the three gentlemen sitting beside you any easier, is it?
The Chair
I have to hurry you, Mr Harris. We have another panel of witnesses and a question to go yet.
Stephen Harris: I cannot answer for my respected colleagues from the banks. It is an environment in which people generally try to work together to do good things for the community as a whole. We are looking here at a minority of situations—I hope it is a minority—where there will be tensions. Ultimately, lenders, taxpayers and the appropriate national authorities are all in the same country together, but I do not speak on behalf of the banks.
Richard Robinson: I think your question was about what we would like to see. All the various options that are in here are helpful; it is one of the strongest parts of the Bill. Mr Harris is right that we, as a lender, would want to work with the college and the authorities in that situation to find the most appropriate path. The issue is that it does not specify where that ranking lies. That, for us, is very important. Although it could rank at the back, it could also rank ahead of us. Obviously, being bankers, we have got to think about the worst-case scenario, and the worst-case scenario is that it is ahead of us. We are making lending decisions today for a long time in the future, and therefore we need to work on the assumption that the worst-case scenario will come to fruition.
The other point was about security. Security is important to us to ensure that we know what our rights are as a secured creditor. If the loan and the security are going to be transferred to another provider, having that option is really helpful. We would want to explore ensuring that it was in the best interests of everybody that we did that. We would also want to ensure that it was not transferred to someone we were less comfortable with. So having that legal certainty about our rights at the outset is very important to us.
Stephen Harris: I can possibly add a little more colour to this question. I was mulling this over and trying to identify in my own mind a situation in which, for totally understandable reasons, somebody might say, “I really, really want to be at the front of this queue,” in a particular situation. In some organisations you really do not know what all the liabilities are when you first approach a situation. Sometimes, when you have travelled a little way on your journey through the insolvency, you discover that there are some very unusual liabilities, which you had not really bargained for, attached to a certain site or situation.
I have some empathy with the idea that, in structuring a funding loan for an administrator early on, and not having total visibility over the level of liabilities that might rank in a particular situation, somebody might want to proceed with caution initially and perhaps take a view on things when the assignment has progressed. At moment zero you do not always know who your liabilities and your contingent creditors are. I do not know whether that is helpful context for these clauses.
Kelvin Hopkins
Q You are talking about lending to bodies that are in theory independent incorporated bodies but are actually largely funded by Government. Sixth-form colleges are funded entirely by the Government. That must make you feel a little more comfortable; the Government do not want these colleges to go under, so your money is relatively safer than if you were investing in a burger bar—if that went under, the nation’s health might actually improve and you would just take the assets and sell them off or whatever. How much are your lending policies influenced by the fact that these are quasi-public bodies?
Richard Robinson: It is an important factor. The income they receive comes from the Government and they are doing something that is of strategic importance to UK plc, and all of those are factors. We need to put this in context. Although it is harder for us to support them in the way we used to, that does not mean that we are not supporting them or that they cannot get money; it is just on different terms from how they used to get it in the past. The relative position is an important one and it is well recognised by us, as I am sure it is by Lloyds and Santander. That relationship with Government is one of the key strengths, and that does bear out in our risk analysis of the sector.
Richard Meddelton: I would echo the fact that they are, as you put it, quasi-Government bodies. We do take great comfort from that, as is obviously evidenced by the fact that we are a major lender in the sector.
Kelvin Hopkins
Q This is a bit of a mischievous supplementary question: does that mean you are less concerned about how the college behaves internally, in terms of its funding and spending, compared with a private body that might go under, where you would lose all your money?
Richard Meddelton: That is a fair question. Obviously I can speak only for my own bank on that. The answer is no, we are not less concerned. The reality is that we are lending very much on a relationship banking perspective. We are looking for longevity; we are not looking for any funding out from that. We certainly carry out the same rigorous credit and risk assessment and ongoing assessment as we would for a corporate.
Gareth Jones: The level of due diligence we apply for a further education college is exactly the same as the level we would apply to the burger bar—to return to your reference. Further education colleges might sit at the better end of the risk profile of Santander’s book as a whole, but actually the diligence we apply internally is exactly the same.
The Chair
If there are no further questions from Members, I will thank the witnesses. Thank you very much, gentlemen. Your agony is now over and we will move on to the next panel.
Examination of Witnesses
Shakira Martin, Shane Chowen and Bev Robinson gave evidence.
The Chair
Welcome. Witnesses, could you please introduce yourselves for Members and the record?
Bev Robinson: Good afternoon, I am Bev Robinson. I have the privilege of being the principal and chief executive of Blackpool and The Fylde College.
Shane Chowen: I am Shane Chowen; I am head of policy and public affairs at the Learning and Work Institute.
Shakira Martin: Good afternoon, I am Shakira Martin. I am the vice-president for further education, representing 4.1 million students across the UK.
Gordon Marsden
Q I welcome all three members of the panel. Were any of you in the room and vaguely listening to our previous panel from the banks?
Bev Robinson: I only heard the last three or four minutes.
Gordon Marsden
Q I only ask as an opener, on the back of the very interesting evidence that we have just had from the banks. We were talking about levels of risk in the situation of potential insolvency, and what the relationship between the education administrator and the actual creditors might be. Could I ask all three of you the same question? Obviously, as principal of a college that I know extremely well and rate extremely highly, you, Bev, would hope never to be in this particular situation. Do you think that in the particular clauses that establish, and balance the functions of, the education administrator, as opposed to the interests of the students and staff at a college that would be affected, the Government have got the balance right? Do you think that there is sufficient detail there for us to feel comfortable with this process?
Shakira Martin: First, I would like to praise the positive step that we are taking in ensuring that students get the best out of this situation, if it were to occur. However, I would like to focus on the Bill, making the point about students not being disrupted in their education. The problem that we at the National Union of Students feel could be encountered is that, for example, it is not clear how the Government will make sure that the colleges that students are transferred to will have the capacity and scope to take on more students at that further time. It is also not clear how the Government will make sure that the education the student receives in the college is kept open and to a high-quality standard. For example, the area review process may have unintended impacts. There will be fewer colleges, further apart. How will travel costs and access be addressed?
Gordon Marsden
Q That point is wider than the one I asked you about, but it is very interesting. We heard the view—I will not say the evidence—of the FE commissioner this morning, who was slightly downplaying the implications of that and said that in some cases mergers could be very beneficial. I think the point that you are making brings us back to the overall point that we have been discussing with the banks: where does the liability—the funding, in other words—for the process actually sit? That is one that I am sure we will continue to explore.
Bev, from your perspective as a college principal of some long standing—not just in Blackpool—and from having had nearly a year, with your colleagues on the panel who produced the skills plan, to look at all the facets and aspects of the FE sector, if you were an FE principal wondering about the future, would you feel that there was sufficient clarity in the Bill? Would you feel that what the education administrator would want to do in that situation would win out?
Bev Robinson: I am not an expert in the field of insolvency but I would make the following observation. First, the Bill is reasonably clear with regard to protecting students. What could be clearer, I feel, is protecting learning for a community in a reasonable travel-to-learn area. I welcome the idea of an education administrator with hopefully an FE background, but it might benefit from having clarity around the different roles of the different people in play—for example, the FE commissioner: how that would work. Because at the end of it all, colleges are businesses and students and learning are at the very heart of that business. Therefore, just to reiterate, I would wish to make sure that learning within a reasonable travel-to-learn pattern was protected as well as students.
Gordon Marsden
That is an issue. I think that is the point you were making, Shakira.
Shakira Martin: Yes. May I add one thing? We would like an amendment to make sure that there are local impact assessments made on local areas, especially with the devolution that is happening and local authorities having more say over what is happening in a local area. I definitely feel that those individual areas need to be looked at really carefully in a bespoke way to make sure that we are meeting those needs.
Gordon Marsden
Yes, I agree. There is very little in the Bill about the impacts of the devolution process except for a perfectly reasonable clause about data.
Shane Chowen: I would not contradict anything that any of my esteemed fellow panellists have said. I would add that, following on from Bev’s point about protecting the learning opportunities in a local area, following area reviews we are looking at quite ginormous FE corporations with budgets of close to or over £100 million. So in some areas where you have quite large group structures, if there was an exceptional incident and that group became insolvent, the kind of ideas Shakira just highlighted around local impact assessments would be particularly important as well as in areas such as rural areas where there are very few colleges and providers that can swoop in and rescue those learning opportunities.
Bev Robinson: With area review, obviously I have got limited experience in my own area.
Gordon Marsden
You are about to get a lot more.
Bev Robinson: I am currently in the area review process, so I am happy to comment on Lancashire but not about across England. That has not been my experience in Lancashire. We are still midway through the process. There has been value in the process and I am not seeing any cold spots at the moment. But I think this is something to watch for in the Bill, so I do want to make this point again. If an unintended consequence is not in a reasonable travel-to-learn area, it could create a cold spot. I remember that words like sufficiency and adequacy were used back in the day to ensure there was sufficiency in an area, and I recommend the Committee considers that.
Secondly, the only thing I wish to question is one of the paragraphs in chapter 7, “Disqualification of Officers”. I question whether that should apply to the college boards and their non-exec directors. I am a little bit concerned that it may discourage students and the business community from serving on colleague boards. I would appreciate it if consideration were given to that point.
Gordon Marsden
Q Incidentally, that point was raised by other witnesses this morning. I cannot remember who it was, but the palette was drawn wider to include local politicians as well. As I listened, I was worried who might be prepared to serve on a board. That is a similar point to the one that was made. I would just like—
Shakira Martin: Gordon, may I add two vital points? Another concern regarding the education administrator is what qualifications and expertise they have within the sector. Are they familiar with the further education sector? When we are talking about widening access, can the Committee also consider care leavers, student parents and those with disabilities? That is it for this section.
Gordon Marsden
Q Right, okay. Can I come back to the institute itself? We had some discussions this morning with Peter Lauener about the genesis of the institute and my concerns about capacity, particularly at the moment. I would like to touch on the issue of representation. Bev, you have quite rightly made a distinction between the community and the learners and the actual organisation in a FE college itself. Do you all believe that learners should be represented on the board of the institute? Over and above the board of the institute, where else can they add value in a process and in a new institution that—at least initially, on the basis of what Peter Lauener said this morning—will have a somewhat limited capacity in terms of the number of people working for it?
Shakira Martin: We 100% believe that there should be a learner on the board. I believe there should be two reserved places: one for an apprentice and one for a student, as their routes into education and experiences will be different. My membership—my apprentices and college students—are consumers, and they need to be around this board. As long as they are taking loan money out, they need to be getting the best deal. Additionally, we have taken the apprenticeship levy from a European model, which is fantastic. However, we have left behind the quality assurance part, which talks about collaboration and working in partnership with colleges, students and other stakeholders. I would like the Committee to consider that.
Shane Chowen: I agree. As the institute is currently set up in statute under this Bill and others, it feels like there is huge value to be added by properly consulting and working with learners at every level of the organisation. I am about to celebrate my 10th year of working in further education, and one of the lines in legislation and regulation that I have learned to fear is “having due regard for learner views”. That relegates properly consulting and involving learners and apprentices to a compliance exercise, and it quickly becomes a tick-box process. The new institute has an amazing opportunity to not do that. Learners should absolutely be on the board.
Each of the 15 route committees can do quite a lot with learners, apprentices and former apprentices. At the end of the day, they are the ones who are looking at jobs, applying for jobs, brushing up their CVs and looking at job specs, so they will have a perspective to add to the development of apprenticeship standards, right from entry up to a higher level. It is not just about the board; it is throughout the organisation.
Bev Robinson: I see merit in having a strong student voice on the board. At the moment, I do not see a strong argument for them on the 15 routes, but I would be open to that. I really welcome a debate on this aspect of the Bill. In this country, professional and technical education has been—I do not know how polite to be—woefully treated. It has been a second class and a last resort, almost. I welcome the Bill putting it where it should be, which is as a first choice rather than a last resort.
Gordon Marsden
Q I hope that is a view shared by everybody in the Committee. I want to probe a little more on the approval process for technical education, and both of you may have something to contribute here. Before being shadow FE Minister, I spent two years as a shadow Transport Minister and I found myself being lobbied by the maritime community because they had developed a series of qualifications—their trailblazers—that were perfectly adequate and excellent for the maritime sector, but then took nearly 18 months to jump through the hoops of the then Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. That is a particular issue in a particular area, but it raises in my mind the question of whether better learner engagement—“learner” in that respect could be treated very widely—in the approval process for technical education would facilitate and improve some of the approval process, so that the lessons from the trailblazers are heeded.
Bev Robinson: I strongly commend co-creation—by co-creation I mean the employer voice is really strong in that, and I feel it has to be. If we learn the lessons from qualifications and the proliferation of qualifications over the last couple of decades, we have lost the employer voice and therefore we have lost some of the value of some qualifications. For me, co-creation is really important. That is about employers and educationists as well as making sure that the student or customer voice—the consumer voice, as Shakira said before—is important. I commend the Committee to consider that.
Shane Chowen: I do not want this to turn into a debate about why there may or may not have been a proliferation of qualifications, but some argue that it is because employers have argued that they did not particularly want it, so something else was developed. I have seen arguments that employers themselves have driven an agenda whereby they have been allowed to create and develop qualifications under a framework —under an employer-responsive model—so there are two sides to that coin. As I said, there are huge opportunities in this Bill to do a lot of great things in technical education and apprenticeships, and it feels like we are halfway there at the moment. An area I feel we can do much more on is widening access and participation in apprenticeships and technical education. If you had learners around the table with a serious voice and a vote, you would find much more innovative, creative and effective ways to engage with marginalised and under-represented groups than you would if you had a panel just of employers.
Gordon Marsden
Q On that point—after this, I will conclude, Ms Dorries—I am struck by the read-across between our discussions on this Bill and those that we had during the Committee stage of the Higher Education and Research Bill, except we have substituted the words “apprentices” for “students”. There is a lot of read-across between this and the Higher Education and Research Bill, and it is right that there is because the Government’s aim is to have higher skills, whichever Bill that comes out of, and this is part and parcel of that.
Yesterday in the Report stage of the Higher Education and Research Bill, we introduced a new clause that would set up a standing commission to look specifically at how we expand adult education and learning. My question is: what more, in the context of this Bill, does the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education need to do to strengthen the argument for widening access and participation with the sorts of groups that we have talked about? I am talking about on the face on the Bill as opposed to saying simply, “Once it gets going I am sure it will think of looking at this.”
Shakira Martin: The Government are talking about parity between the two routes—was it parity? The office for students has just announced that it is going to have a learner voice—a student—at the table and that is where this starts. It starts in this room, from the beginning. You also need to remember that we are not just creating students with qualifications; we are creating citizens. Getting students around the table to take ownership of their learning and of what is happening with them in society is actually having a domino effect. They have been enabled to make decisions, and they will give this back. Once you take ownership of something then you have a much better view, love and respect for it.
I do think that it starts there, by having two reserved places, because studying in the classroom and studying as an apprentice are two very different things. That is why I stress that it needs to be two reserved places. If we are saying that there is parity, then that is the beginning of where it starts.
Shane Chowen: I would go further on that point about parity. I have heard Ministers and Secretaries of State call for parity of esteem and respect between the academic and technical route for many years, and that is laudable. This Bill feels like a good opportunity to move in the right direction with that. One of the first discrepancies is the enormous agenda to widen access and participation that there is in higher education, both in terms of what is in statute—which is why this Bill is important—and also in practice, in terms of what is funded on the ground. So in HE there is an established Office for Fair Access in statute, and the director has statutory responsibilities until the current Higher Education and Research Bill 2016-17 passes, and then that goes to the office for students.
There is a student opportunities fund managed by HEFCE that is worth about £41 million. Universities themselves spend between £700 million and £750 million a year on widening participation action in the form of bursaries and outreach activities. If we are serious about widening access and parity of esteem, there has to be a dual-pronged approach. We cannot have tonnes of resources pumped into widening access on the HE model and then not very much going into widening access on the technical and apprenticeship model, because there are still under-represented groups within the technical and apprenticeship system. There are still communities that are not engaging in the system as much as they should be. The system is not reflective of the employment sector or the general population, particularly when you look at students with disabilities and learning difficulties, and students from black and minority ethnic backgrounds. They are not reflected in the sector in the way that they should be. There is a massive opportunity in this Bill to do something about that.
At the very least, the new institute can have some responsibilities to report annually on progress towards levelling the playing field on improving access and participation, as well as achievement and progression of individuals from under-represented groups. What we can learn from the HE work is that there are already sophisticated models and benchmarks to do that. I do not think that it would be a difficult job. We would not be starting from scratch. It is important that there is a dual-pronged approach if we are serious about parity of esteem.
Bev Robinson: I would like to add something about the importance of careers advice and guidance. Understanding the many opportunities at a young age is key, and with positive models you then see them. Through careers advice and guidance, it is very simple: you can relate to that person and think to yourself, “Well actually if they can achieve that, then so can I.” That is very powerful for social mobility.
Tracy Brabin
Q I would like to ask about the opportunities of courses. My previous background was in the cultural industries, and it seems that culture and design are grouped. How would you like the choices within these brackets to be prioritised? Should the balance be about job creation, rather than careers? Have you had thoughts about the expectations of students and what they would be taking up within these brackets?
Bev Robinson: May I clarify: when you say brackets, do you mean the routes?
Tracy Brabin
Yes—culture and design is one route.
Bev Robinson: Indeed. I was involved in the Lord Sainsbury panel that contributed to the report, so I feel like I have spent a lot of my time and life in looking at that. I feel that there are real opportunities for both. It has to be about career, because it is about a journey. It is really important that we give everyone the opportunity to develop skills, to help them to secure employment for themselves and their families to have strong and healthy lives.
Because the routes are mapped against what the economy needs, it helps with advice and guidance and helps a young person of whatever age to think, “Here’s an opportunity for me. I can see my path and how that fits.” You do not always make decisions and stick to them. It is important that there is enough in there that one can transition across different pathways as well, and this proposal allows for that.
This also goes up to levels 4 and 5—a real engine of the economy in high-value jobs, for want of a better term. We talk a lot about levels 2 and 3 in technical professional education, but we must remember to include levels 4 and 5. I would like to think that this is very much about a journey—a career that enables you to move and develop further as you desire.
Shane Chowen: I welcome that the Bill does not specify that there have to be 15 routes or what those routes are. It leaves that up to the Secretary of State to define the routes and the institute to define what occupations go into those routes. I think there is a clause that says that, if an occupation does not fit into one of the routes, the institute can pop it in somewhere that it sees fit.
I would add that it comes up against this parity with HE argument. In the 24-plus advanced learning loans system at the moment, where you can get funding to go on a course as an individual, in future you would only be able to get an advanced learner loan for a course that would fit in to one of those 15 routes. Most things probably will but the parity issue for me is as follows. No, I do not have a degree. No one will stop me going and doing my first degree in classics and I will get funding for that. If I wanted to do a course that was not within one of those 15 routes—at Bev’s college, for example—I could not get an advanced learner loan for that under the proposals. Sadly, that is the case at the moment—I am involved in the stakeholder group for the 24-plus loans. For me there is also a parity issue around access to funding for individuals. If we are saying in the loan system that the risk is on you—the loan is yours and you are responsible for paying it back—I do not think we can restrict people’s choices into those 15 routes, if there is a course that does not fit neatly within them.
Shakira Martin: The skills plan proposes 15 routes. I have been speaking to my membership already, and this goes back to the reason and importance of why we need them on the board. The 15 routes do not cover qualifications in the retail industry, for example.
My members feel extreme concerns for the arts courses as there is only a route that proposes for arts “Creative and Design”. Those do not cover courses such as performing arts. Learners are already recommending that this route be split into two: applied art and design and performing arts. Again, I would like to reiterate why that is so important. It is this type of stuff we can address if they are around the table in the first instance, instead of learning by trial and error within the sector.
I would also like to draw your attention to how the clause is written. It is under “occupational categories” which, if you are not involved in the sector, you will not understand. That is again another reason why somebody needs to be around the board. The Secretary of State would be given more power to change the routes without consulting students. I would like to put to the Committee that we have an amendment to say that before any of these changes take place, learners should be consulted, as well as information, advice and guidance being part of the process. I agree with what David Hughes said this morning that IAG should be going into key stage 4. I went to the Skills Show this week and that provides an excellent example of IAG in those four days. I strongly recommend you to look into the Skills Show.
Bev Robinson: May I clarify something, please? We are talking about technical professional education. There are other opportunities for learning—A-levels, applied general qualifications—that would cover retail and performing arts. The technical education was not meant to cover absolutely everything. It is meant to cover just technical and professional education, so this would not exclude a learning opportunity because that would be covered by applied general qualifications currently.
David Rutley
Q Thank you for your points. Like all of you, I believe this is very important to help people achieve their potential and to improve social mobility—no question. We are all saying this is a positive step forward. Obviously there is more to follow, but this in itself is a positive step forward. I am keen to focus on these categories for a moment. I know that you were involved with helping to create these, Bev. Obviously, they are important not just for learners but for businesses and employers as well. Does the panel believe that there is enough flexibility in that arrangement to have some defined pathways but to be able to evolve, given what will happen in the economy and in those sectors in future?
Shakira Martin: I believe that, with devolution, we do need to be working at a local level, working in partnership with local organisations, such as local enterprise partnerships, local businesses and small and medium-sized enterprises, to make sure that it is relevant to the needs of that community and that area, and to the needs to the students. This is also why it is vitally important that we are training and educating our students not just for a job in a specific area, but giving them transferable skills to enable them to move out of their area and up into a different industry.
Shane Chowen: Whatever the structures put in place within the institute around oversight of those routes, it is important that they have the necessary authority to make those kinds of recommendations, so if a route needs to be modified in any way, they have the authority to do that. The digital sector, for example, is probably one of the fastest moving of those 15 sectors. That will need to change all the time: the kind of occupations that are listed within those will need to be updated all the time. I would hope that the institute would have the flexibility to allow that to happen.
Bev Robinson: I completely agree: currency is king. We have seen some of the qualifications in the market become terribly out of date. The Bill does allow for flexibility because the institute will be responsible, with those panels, for making sure that it is kept up to date. I really do welcome that.
David Rutley
Q Do you believe that businesses are currently engaged enough in helping to define those categories or routes, and are the mechanisms in place to ensure that will happen?
Bev Robinson: I believe it is. The panels are not there to represent a particular business. Shane alluded earlier to the fact that the panels can sometimes be too narrow, as we have seen with the early trailblazers. Lessons learned from that would suggest that you are on that panel because of your engineering expertise, not because you happen to work for AA Engineering Ltd. It is about keeping that currency and making sure that you are representing not your company but the engineering field. Also, because it is co-creation, having educationalists there as well to make sure that pedagogy is also at the heart of the design of these products.
Shane Chowen: I have nothing to add on that.
Kelvin Hopkins
Q A very important question: what measures should be put in place to protect the quality of education received in a college that is struggling financially?
Shakira Martin: As I said, I welcome the fact that learners are being considered in the insolvency regime. The NUS did put forward some recommendations in the consultation—I think that maybe some of that has not been considered before but, within this process, that is vitally important—of an independent FE ombudsman. When students do go through this process, if they are not satisfied with the end result, what steps do they take in appealing that decision to ensure that they get the best? At the moment there is nothing out there to represent students in that way. I am not really familiar with the HE sector and whether there is the equivalent there, but I am sure that there is probably something in place. After the process has happened and a student has been placed in a college and is not happy with that position—what next? How do they challenge that? I would strongly recommend an independent ombudsman.
Shane Chowen: For me, if it has got to the stage where there are crisis meetings looking at how to recover teachers and get students to a place to learn, at some point along the way the system has already failed. The whole idea behind the commissioner’s office, for example, is to ensure that learners are protected long before a college even starts looking at insolvency as an option. The flags that are highlighted within the Department and the Skills Funding Agency at the moment to trigger a visit from the commissioner, should offer those protections long before an insolvency process.
Bev Robinson: I agree with that; it is about early intervention, not waiting for a failure—it is seeing the signs and making appropriate interventions.
Kelvin Hopkins
Q Pushing that argument further, you quite rightly said that colleges are now businesses after the incorporation in 1993. They have to perform like businesses, even though they are largely publicly funded. We may have a debate about whether that was a good idea or not, but nevertheless that is the situation we are now in. If a principal wants to make money, one way of making money is to squeeze more students in per class, to reduce the quality of the teaching by having less qualified teachers, to put people on courses and not worry about whether they turn up or not—to do all sorts of things that get the money in, but do not actually do the job particularly well.
I speak from some knowledge of a case exactly like that, where a college got into a terrible crisis. The principal disappeared and is now being picked up; I will not mention any names, but you may have been aware of it—it was a notorious national scandal. What is to prevent principals, especially with weak governing bodies, from behaving like this? Many students are not in a position to challenge and staff feel nervous about challenging, because if there is a wilful principal they might choose to get rid of staff, who cannot afford to lose their jobs, and so on. There are those possibilities, unless there are some controls. What would you suggest?
Bev Robinson: What you are citing there is an extreme example.
Kelvin Hopkins
But a real extreme example.
Bev Robinson: I appreciate that it was not fantasy—I appreciate that it was real—but such cases are an absolute minority. There are two golden threads in further education corporations—quality and finance—and it is about the balance of the two. In terms of what measures one could put in place, you have highlighted something: governing bodies—making sure that governing bodies are looking at the two golden threads of quality and money. It is about making sure that there are enough checks and balances within an organisation to allow for challenge; any good organisation would have that. I guess, ultimately, as we mentioned about the FE commissioner before, you would say the FE commissioner again, alongside Ofsted. Remember that with the desk research they do, they would spot within 12 months—if it was a dramatic example, as you cited—that quality suddenly went down very rapidly. That would be a red flag and a trigger. I would like to think that that would not happen, but obviously it does happen in a minority of cases.
Kelvin Hopkins
Q Earlier today I was talking about governing bodies, having had 25 years’ experience on a sixth-form college governing body and some years before that on a college of higher education—which was really a high-powered FE college, with some HE and some FE. With that experience, I know that having the right governing body with the right kind of membership is absolutely crucial so that principals cannot get into that situation.
At the beginning of incorporation, all those years ago, the Government wanted small, tightly knit governing bodies made up of local businesspeople, thinking that that would make it work—the businesspeople would somehow guide the college into producing the right students. It did not actually work, and in the end the Government changed their mind and wanted broader based governing bodies including, of course, students— certainly, at the college I am at, the student council elect their own students on to the governing body—plus some accountants, some lawyers, and some headteachers from local high schools and primary schools. There was a whole range of different skills, so that the college is properly accountable— without having an elected body, but they do appoint their own governors. That approach is a way forward. Can we put that sort of thing into the Bill, to ensure the legislation is improved? I know that you and Gordon know each other very well. I am interested to know what your governing body is like.
Bev Robinson: I am thinking of the unintended consequences. It is very easy to say that we can dictate exactly the constitution of a governing body, but if we are looking at further education corporations across the country, some of them are very different. My own, for example, is an outstanding college. We are very strong financially and so on, and we benefit from the mix and balance that we have on the board: we benefit from our business community and from two very able students on the board. I am hesitant about mandating exactly what that board would look like, because it varies by college. If, for example, I were a land-based college, I might want a slightly different mix, so I am hesitant about fully supporting that.
Shane Chowen: There is an interesting overlap in what you are saying, in terms of what the new accountability and regulatory landscape would look like after the Bill, with the various new bodies. How does Ofsted interact with the institute? How does the OFS interact with the institute, which interacts with Ofsted? Who inspects HE, given that Ofsted does not have a role within that? There is definitely something in cleaning up that landscape and giving the roles and responsibilities within the sector some very clear and defined lines.
We have not spoken much today about the devolution elements within the Bill—I have been here all day, by the way; I’m a superfan. If you are devolving significant sums of money to combined authorities, the Government are absolutely right, on behalf of the taxpayer, to expect some level of accountability and assurance about that. That should be not only raw numbers of how many people are doing qualifications and at what level, but also the extent to which those funds are being managed and accounted for. There might well be another layer of accountability under devolution.
Having said that, combined authorities and LEPs often have representatives on college corporations, so they should be responsible, as governors, for noticing when something is awry—for example, a spike in student complaints when they get their spreadsheets. I am not sure the Bill currently delivers that, so it could be looked at in future.
Shakira Martin: Can I remind everybody that FE has been cut to the core for a long time now? There might be some mismanagement, but when you are cut to the core and trying to change people’s lives on a budget, this is the kind of situation we get into. There is a big call for investment at the moment. I am going to flip this and talk about money and why we need it. Something I picked up from David Hughes this morning is the point about stability and certainty. We are often known as a Cinderella sector. It was welcome to hear the new Secretary for Education put FE at the heart and say that it is a priority. However, investment is needed in that area.
Kelvin Hopkins
Q There were some striking figures this morning about the enormous difference between the spending per student in FE, post-16 and A-level students and in universities. I made the point that at university, you often have a small number of lectures with a couple of tutorials, whereas in FE, and particularly in A-levels and BTECs, you have constant contact with teachers. The level of engagement is much greater between teacher and student.
Shakira Martin: Definitely. There is another thing that is quite frustrating. I welcome the money being put into the adults skills budget, but that is not an investment directly into further education, so I would like the Committee to consider direct investment in FE institutions.
Kelvin Hopkins
In my case, you are preaching to the converted.
Shane Chowen: It might be worth pointing out, just on that point, that there were also figures out last week showing participation in FE and skills, and in the last 12 months we have had the biggest drop in adults participating in basic English and maths training that we have had in six or seven years. That comes at a time when—I think Professor Fuller mentioned this earlier—the UK is ranked bottom of the OECD league tables for literacy and second bottom for numeracy. At a time when we have to send out negotiators and a Secretary of State for International Trade to fly the flag for the UK, those figures look really bad.
The Chair
Order. May I just interrupt here? The questions have to pertain strictly to the provisions in the Bill, as Mr Hopkins well knows. I know it is slightly difficult, but could you keep this answer as short as possible, so that we can move on to questions that do pertain to the Bill?
Kelvin Hopkins
Apologies, Ms Dorries. I have finished now; thank you.
Shane Chowen: I would argue that there would be opportunities in the Bill to place extra emphasis on those kinds of issues that the country faces in international trade negotiations, such as basic literacy and numeracy.
Gordon Marsden
Q I would like to ask this, while remaining within the scope of the Bill. There has been some interesting discussion about priorities, adult skills, training and so on. I want to return us to discussing the institute. If you had been here earlier, Shane, you would have heard a number of questions put to Peter Lauener about the nature of the institute, what its capacity might be and so on. I want to talk about one thing that strikes me about what the Bill is trying to do.
The institute had an interesting genesis, because it did not start out as an institute at all; it started out as a wish list in the Enterprise Bill by the previous Government as to who could actually look after apprenticeships. At one stage, it was going to be trading standards. Obviously, that subsequently was decided not to be the way forward, so the Government brought through, in the Enterprise Bill, the first genesis of the Institute for Apprenticeships, and like Topsy, it has just growed—very beneficially, I think, but that does raise some interesting questions that go to the heart of skills policy and of the new structure that will be set up, so I would like to ask the three of you, from your different perspectives, to answer this. We have heard a lot about apprenticeships. Obviously, that was discussed this morning with Peter Lauener. The technical qualifications are coming into this institute anew, but they bring with them the issue of how many people—actually, adults—need to be retrained and reskilled, the issue of what technical means for them. What should the balance be between the new institute focusing, obviously, on apprenticeships because that is a key Government target—
The Chair
Order. Mr Marsden, we have a vote just before 4 pm, so if we keep to the point of the question, the witnesses will have a chance to answer.
Gordon Marsden
Indeed. What do you think the balance should be in terms of the new institute focusing on apprenticeships, as opposed to focusing on other retraining and reskilling?
Bev Robinson: I would probably go 50:50, because if you look at what we are asking in terms of technical professional education up to levels 4 and 5, there will be a considerable amount of work to do.
Shane Chowen: I would agree, but I also think there is a lot of overlap between the two. One thing we have argued is that the institute could do much more to publicise and promote better data around outcomes for technical education and apprenticeships. That would be the same job for different forms of learning. I am talking about things such as employment outcomes, earnings outcomes, learner satisfaction and employer satisfaction. Those are things that the institute could do jointly between apprenticeships and technical education.
Shakira Martin: One thing that the institute could do is define what an apprenticeship is—is it employment or work? There could also be better initiatives to get young people or just people back into work. An example is council tax exemptions. What does that mean for students who are estranged from their parents or whose parents are on low incomes? If it can be clarified whether an apprenticeship is education, work or both, perhaps we would be able to take steps forward in anticipating what we actually need.
Gordon Marsden
That involves the Minister discussing some of these things with his friends in the DWP and brings us back to the 16-hour rule and also to the conclusion of the sitting, I suspect.
The Chair
Does anyone else have any questions? If there are no further questions from hon. Members, I thank the witnesses for travelling here today and giving evidence.
Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned.—(David Evennett.)
Technical and Further Education Bill (Third sitting)
Thursday 24th November 2016
(7 years, 12 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Technical and Further Education Act 2017 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 24 November 2016 - (24 Nov 2016)
Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Bailey. This Bill, which we did not oppose on Second Reading, is full of lots of worthy things, but the devil is in the detail, and the latest detail that we have had was a lengthy policy statement on clause 1 and schedule 1, which was delivered to Members at only 5 o’clock last night. I do not know whether other Members have had an opportunity to look at it—I gather that printed copies are not available, which is a shame, but it will have been emailed to everyone.
The point that I want to make is that it is extremely unhelpful, to put it mildly, for the details on complex issues relating to how the powers in schedule 1 to the Bill will be repatriated into the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009 to be delivered to Committee members at such short notice, leaving us little time to study them, let alone table amendments. I would like to know why it was not possible for this document to be delivered earlier in the week—on Tuesday, for the sake of argument—when we might have had an opportunity to look at it properly. As it is, we have been done a grave disservice.
I remind the Minister and the Government Whip that the document includes the Keeling schedules, which are designed precisely to make complex provisions comprehensible by reference to the earlier legislation that is being changed. That is their purpose. It might also be worth reminding people that Keeling schedules were the innovation of a Conservative Member and were brought about under a Conservative Prime Minister; they are designed to help Government as much as Opposition Back Benchers to do their job.
The other point is that the policy statement makes out that the provisions are merely an add-on to ones taken up in the Enterprise Act 2016, which I am not querying. However, to argue that technical education is a mere add-on to apprenticeships is to diminish its value and to underrate the complexity of what the Government will need to do. That is therefore not a very good argument for saying, “Oh well, this is just a basic set-up of principles in which we have included technical education.”
In view of that, I am asking not only for an explanation from the Minister as to why the documents could not have been made available on Tuesday, but, in fairness, for some consideration to be given to taking manuscript amendments relating to the clause—since I assume it is not possible to reprogramme it at this stage—on Monday and Tuesday. We might then be able to have a broader and more thoughtful discussion. Depending on the Minister’s response, I will then ask about the context and basis of the policy statement for our discussion of amendments this morning, or indeed of clause 1 and schedule 1, if that is what we do.
The Chair
Obviously that is not a matter for the Chair. However, the point has been made and I invite the Minister, if he wishes to respond, to do so.
The Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills (Robert Halfon)
Thank you, Mr Bailey—
Kelvin Hopkins
It is further to that point of order, Mr Bailey. I just want to support my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South. I arrived at the House fairly recently and picked up the paper from my office, but I have not had time to read it, and it is clearly lengthy. I entirely support what he said and hope that the Minister will be accommodating.
Robert Halfon
The existing policy statement has already been on the gov.uk website for several weeks, as has the delegated powers memorandum. What was provided last night was an expanded refresh, but we have provided information on the policy, and that is the key point.
Gordon Marsden
I appreciate what the Minister says about the original version having been on the website, but the point is that this is not the original but an expanded version. He used the word “refresh”, which, if I may say so, politely, is another slightly slippery term that would be best avoided. This is actually an amended version of what was on the website, which is why we are raising the issue.
We broadly support the principles of the Bill. We are trying to take it forward and do due diligence, as all members of the Committee should want to do. This is not a partisan argument or an opportunity to score points; it is about treating the Committee with the respect it deserves. Hon. Members received a significantly amended version of the policy statement at 5 o’clock last night, without having had any prior indication. I return to my point, which the Minister has not answered: why could this document not have been circulated on Tuesday? Why was it left until 5 o’clock on a Wednesday evening, when many hon. Members perhaps were not looking at, or were unable to look at, their emails? The Minister has heard already that my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North has picked his up only this morning. Frankly, if we want to proceed in a co-operative and friendly way in the Committee, this is no way to run a railway.
Mr Shailesh Vara (North West Cambridgeshire) (Con)
As a former Minister who has taken Bills through Committee, I am confident that there is no conspiratorial issue here. Regrettably, this does happen with a number of Bills going through Committee. It is happening under a Conservative Government now, but it used to happen when Labour was in government. I am confident that, on the whole, Ministers, of whichever shade of the political spectrum, mean well and act in good faith, but the reality is that sometimes things appear at the last minute. Those on the Opposition Front Bench simply have to live with it and get on. This is not conspiratorial; it is the way the Government operate, whichever party is in office.
Gordon Marsden
I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point, and I assume that most of the time these things come about—if I am not using unparliamentary language—as a result of a cock-up, rather than a conspiracy. For the sake of Hansard, I stress that I am not saying that that was the case here. What I am saying is that it was not terribly helpful that the document turned up at only 5 o’clock last night. I understand that these issues are quite complex. I might add in passing, however, that some of the discussion in this sitting will be about capacity, and if the Minister’s Department did not have the capacity to produce this very important document by Tuesday, that will raise concerns about its capacity to do some of the other things that it needs to do in relation to the Bill.
I am not asking that the document not be looked at. I entirely accept the point made by the hon. Member for North West Cambridgeshire that these things happen, but in the circumstances I think it not unreasonable to ask that hon. Members on both sides of the Committee, who might want to look at some of these issues, should have the opportunity to table amendments in the light of this policy statement. I remind those on the Government Front Bench that clause 1 and schedule 1 deal with most if not all of the meat of the establishment of this new institution, and we should get that right.
Robert Halfon
I will just say one final word on the matter. It is important to note that this is existing material. Most of it is already in the public domain—in the Sainsbury report and the explanatory notes. We did not publish it on Tuesday because we wanted to be able to digest the oral evidence session. There is no conspiracy. We were just trying to be helpful to the Committee by ensuring that there was a fuller note on the matter.
Gordon Marsden
I entirely accept the Minister’s explanation. It is unfortunate that we are in this situation, but I am asking whether, under the circumstances, we will be able to move amendments to clause 1 and schedule 1 by manuscript or on a starred basis at the beginning of next week.
The Chair
I am informed that the deadline for tabling amendments is actually the close of business today, so that could be done. The exact timetabling of the order of business is obviously a matter that needs to be determined by informal dialogue between the two Whips, so I leave that in their hands.
Gordon Marsden
I do not want to test your patience, Mr Bailey, and I accept what you have said, but on that basis, since we are going to move on to discuss clause 1 and schedule 1, may I establish the status of the policy statement? Does the Minister intend to present and debate that document as part of his remarks on clause 1 or schedule 1, or should we be able to refer to it in cross-questioning?
The Chair
I had not seen the statement either, so I will invite the Minister to explain, but first I call Kelvin Hopkins.
Kelvin Hopkins
Just for clarification, if it is accepted that we can table amendments to clause 1 and schedule 1 today, does that mean we will not take the stand part debate on clause 1 until later in our sessions?
The Chair
The situation is that Members can table amendments if the Committee has not moved on, but if schedule 1 has been taken, they cannot. I call the Minister.
Robert Halfon
The policy document does not change anything. As I say, most of it was already in the public domain and we were just trying to help the Committee. We are here to debate the clause and schedule relevant to the issue in hand.
The Chair
I will move on to some preliminary announcements. Today we begin line-by-line consideration of the Bill. Members may remove their jackets during Committee meetings. Please ensure that all electronic devices are turned off or switched to silent mode.
The selection list for today’s sittings is available in the room and shows how the selected amendments have been grouped for debate. Grouped amendments are generally on the same or similar issues. The Member who has put their name to the leading amendment in a group will be called first. Other Members will then be free to catch my eye and speak to all or any of the amendments in that group. A Member may speak more than once in a debate. I will work on the assumption that the Minister wishes the Committee to reach a decision on all Government amendments.
Please note that decisions on amendments take place not in the order in which amendments are debated, but in the order in which they appear on the amendment paper. In other words, debate occurs according to the selection list and decisions are taken when we come to the clause that the amendment affects. I hope that explanation is helpful. I will use my discretion to decide whether to allow a separate stand part debate on individual clauses and schedules following the debates on the relevant amendments. If any Member wishes to make a declaration of interest, he or she may do so at this point.
Kelvin Hopkins
I do not know whether my membership of the governing body of a sixth-form college is relevant, but I declare it anyway.
The Chair
Thank you. I remind Committee members that we will consider the clauses and schedules in the order set out in the programme motion that we agreed on Tuesday morning, which is set out at the end of the amendment paper.
Clause 1
The Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education
Robert Halfon
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bailey. I am very pleased to be here this morning to begin line-by-line consideration of this important Bill. I look forward to debating it with all members of the Committee. I particularly want to convey my thanks to Lord Sainsbury and his Independent Panel on Technical Education for the excellent work that they have done on technical education, which we are now taking forward through the post-16 skills plan in the Bill.
I want to pay significant tribute to my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), who has been recovering from a serious illness. It was good to see him in the House recently. I want to thank everyone who has taken time to serve on the Committee, and I thank you, Mr Bailey, and Ms Dorries for serving as chairpersons. I thank those who gave oral evidence on Tuesday this week and those who have already submitted written evidence; their expert contribution has got us off to a great start.
Turning to part 1 of the Bill, clause 1 seeks to amend the name of the Institute for Apprenticeships to reflect its wider responsibility for college-based technical education. The Enterprise Act 2016 will establish the Institute for Apprenticeships. The institute is expected to come into operation in April 2017 with apprenticeship functions. The clause, together with schedule 1, will extend the institute’s remit to reflect the Government’s vision for the skills system set out in the post-16 plan.
The reforms will result in technical education qualifications that are designed around employers’ needs. They will support young people and adults to secure sustained employment and will meet the needs of our rapidly changing economy. Measures to extend the institute’s remit are important for a number of reasons. As a country, we face a pressing need for more highly skilled people, yet the current system presents a bewildering array of overlapping qualifications with similar aims. We cannot continue to let so many of our young people work their way through a succession of low-level, low-value qualifications that lead at best to low-skilled, low-paid employment.
The Bill will give the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education responsibility for approving high-quality technical qualifications that develop the skills, knowledge and behaviours required by employers for skilled employment. Apprenticeships and college-based technical education courses will be based on a common set of employer-developed standards. This will ensure consistency between the two methods of obtaining a technical education.
Securing a step change in technical education is vital for the productivity of this country. By 2020—we are open and honest about this—the UK is set to fall to 28th out of 33 OECD countries in terms of developing intermediate skills. The size of the post-secondary technical sector in England is extremely small by international standards. That affects our productivity, where we lag behind competitors such as Germany and France by as much as 36%. Unless we take action, we will be left further behind.
A high-quality skills system needs to be distinct from the academic option. Academic qualifications such as A-levels are clearly understood, yet most young people do not go to university. Evidence shows that technical qualifications have long been regarded as inferior to academic qualifications. Reforming the system so that it provides a clear line of sight to the world of work will ensure that technical education in this country is valued as equally as the academic option.
The reformed technical education system will be built around a clear framework of skilled occupations. Occupational maps will be used to identify the occupations that are suitable for technical education, grouping together those with similar requirements, designing the system around clearly identifiable occupations, and bringing together employers to identify the skills and knowledge needed for those occupations. They will ensure that the new system genuinely meets the needs of individuals, employers and the economy.
It is important that a single organisation is responsible for working with employers and is the custodian of employer-led standards. Giving the institute responsibility at the heart of these reforms will ensure that all technical education provision is closely aligned and of the same high quality. We will ensure that the institute has the skills and capacity to be responsible for technical education when its remit is extended in April 2018. It is right that the institute’s name is changed to reflect the wider scope of its responsibilities.
Gordon Marsden
I associate myself with the Minister’s kind words about his predecessor, the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford. It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bailey, and that of Ms Dorries. I appreciate that this is quite a technical and detailed Bill, so we will depend upon the skills of the Clerks and hopefully timely policy submissions from the Government to wade our way through it.
The Minister rightly spoke about the broad need for the institute. He talked frankly about the situation in terms of technical skills, which was alluded to recently by the noble Baroness Wolf. It is absolutely right that we have the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education—I do not know whether we are going to have to state that in full all the way through, or perhaps we can use the acronym; I assume the “E” will not be silent. I shall not detain the Committee with the story of why one Government had to change the title of a higher education and lifelong learning department; Members can think about that acronym.
Robert Halfon
On a point of order, Mr Bailey. To help the Committee, IFATE is a perfectly acceptable description of the institute during the debate.
Gordon Marsden
Great. I shall use it with relish.
We are very much in favour of the establishment of IFATE. We were very much in favour of the establishment of the Institute for Apprenticeships—so much so, in fact, that we anticipated the Government in tabling a clause in which, with our limited capacity as opposed to the civil service’s, we tried to spell out what that institute should do. I make that point to issue a caution to the Minister. He is still relatively new to his post, but not to this field; he has a distinguished record in championing apprenticeships, both in person and in policy. I am entirely confident that the principle of everything he has said today is very close to his heart—it is not always close to every Minister’s heart, but I think it is in his case—and that he will do his best to take that through.
We did not oppose the Bill’s Second Reading, not simply because of the Minister’s personal qualities but also because we believe there is a great deal of good in the Bill. However, the devil is in the detail, and the detail that causes us significant concern, and to which my hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State referred on Second Reading, is the fact that we come to the Bill and to this new institution with a great deal of rather confused and not very comforting baggage.
I remind the Committee that when the Enterprise Bill was originally going through the House of Lords, where it started, there was no concept of an Institute for Apprenticeships at all. If Members consult the Hansard report of the House of Lords debates, they will see that there was much discussion on the Government Front Bench as to how the whole issue of standards could be developed. At one stage, a Government spokesperson suggested—whether accurately or otherwise I do not know—that some of it might be the province of trading standards officers. I think most Members here who know the way in which local government has had its trading standards officers cut back in recent years would agree that that is probably an over-optimistic assessment.
In due course the Government decided that they needed to set up an arm’s length body, which is why, at a relatively late stage during the Commons debate on the Enterprise Bill—I think it was on Report; I might be wrong—the then Minister, the right hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), tabled an amendment to that effect, which we then debated in Committee. As I said, the Government on that occasion had not got their act together to put a clause down establishing it in the Bill, so we put one down and we discussed it.
I know that no Government like to take anybody else’s idea, but we were rather disappointed that, when the Bill eventually came out, it was a fairly standard boilerplate structure, if I can put it that way, for setting up any institution of this sort. As we know, this is an innovation that potentially takes quite a lot of working responsibilities away from the Department for Education and the Skills Funding Agency. I think we are now back in the sort of territory that we were in during the Committee stage of the Higher Education and Research Bill. The Minister I faced then was the Minister for Universities, Science, Research and Innovation, but we had exactly the same conversations in that Committee about the appropriateness of a Bill that established the office for students but did not mandate students to go on to that body. I feel a sense of déjà vu, because we are in exactly the same place with this Bill. We will return to the detail of that amendment in due course, but I mention it now only to illustrate the lack of connectivity that there seems to have been, and the relatively late stage at which guidelines for the Institute for Apprenticeships have been produced.
Hon. Members might also remember that the skills plan was originally intended to be in the Government’s academies mark 2 Bill. It disappeared from that Bill at a relatively late stage, when the Government realised that that Bill would be too hot to handle with their Back Benchers. We then had the rather strange situation, again at the very last minute, in which a Government statement about introducing the Bill and laying out its provisions had a little bit tucked in the middle saying, “Oh, by the way, we’ve decided we don’t have to go ahead with the academies issue.” I am not here to talk about academies, but I mention that example because it is illustrative. The hon. Member for North West Cambridgeshire spoke earlier about things that go wrong in Government. It is illustrative of the fact that the Government felt, at a relatively late stage—largely because of their embarrassment over that Bill, some observers believe—that this set of changes, which we welcome, should have separate legislation.
Whatever the reasons for that, we welcome it now, although I will gently say that it would have been better to have been able to discuss some of this in more detail, and possibly to have the Institute for Apprenticeships itself incorporated in the Higher Education and Research Bill. During the passage of that Bill, as the Government Whip will well remember, the Minister for Universities and Research spoke at length about the importance of higher level skills and everything that went with that, so it seems rather bizarre to some of us that this did not go into that Bill in the first place. We will not dwell on that.
What we want and need to dwell on are the issues relating to capacity. Capacity and time in terms of establishment have plagued the Government ever since discussions about the skills plan and the apprenticeship levy started. Sector skills council after sector skills council, employer bodies and providers have all had queasiness about the apprenticeship levy. We, too, support the levy, but we share some of the severe concerns about its implementation. A long list of organisations, including the Confederation of British Industry and the Federation of Small Businesses, have expressed and continue to feel concern about timing and capacity.
Mike Kane (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that matters are extraordinarily hazy? We are setting up an institution and employing a gentleman for two days a week. The Government think they might employ 60 staff and the budget is an estimated £8 million. What guarantees are there that the organisation will be fit for purpose?
Gordon Marsden
Of course, the broad thrust of what my hon. Friend says is right; but let us try to be fair to the Government, and indeed to the officials, including Peter Lauener, who have the slightly unenviable task of bringing the matter to fruition in the relatively short time we now have.
On Tuesday, we discussed not only capacity, but the capability of the people recruited. That was why I asked Peter Lauener where the people might come from. I offered him the opportunity to say how many transfers, if any, he expected. I asked him:
“You talked about the numbers…given the staff reductions in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills—of course, this is a machinery of government change—do you expect to be moving across or recruiting people from either the SFA or BIS who have previous experience in this area?”—Official Report, Technical and Further Education Public Bill Committee, 22 November 2016; c. 9, Q10.]
Answer came there none. I was merely told about the process for advertising for the key roles of deputy directors. I am sure that, like generals in armies, deputy directors are very important people, but in armies it is non-commissioned officers who are needed to get things moving—the people lower down the food chain who know all the bits and pieces and nuts and bolts. Peter Lauener offered no evidence on possible transfer processes from the Skills Funding Agency and the Department for Education, or indeed whether there have been expressions of interest.
Hon. Members will remember the comments of Ian Pretty, the witness from 157 Group, after David Hughes expressed strong concern about capacity issues. Mr Pretty has significant experience in the civil service and outside it, including as a tax inspector, as he said rather ruefully. He said:
“I would focus on capability as well. You can have 60 people or 100 people in the institute, but have you got the right capability? I would be nervous if the institute was completely staffed by civil servants. If this organisation is about co-creation with the private sector and the education sector, you need people with the capability to understand how business thinks and how business operates. You also need people who understand how the education providers operate. On the capacity issue, in terms of raw numbers you will cite something, but capability is more important.”––[Official Report, Technical and Further Education Public Bill Committee, 22 November 2016; c. 16, Q22.]
I agree. We do not have a problem with the direction of travel of the institute or the long list of admirable things it is supposed to do, but we have a severe problem of confidence about believing that it is anywhere near having the ability to do it. That is the issue that the Minister needs to address.
Perhaps I can drill down into that. The Minister talked about standards and frameworks, so it would be appropriate to ask him a few questions about those. It is fair to say that, although the routes produced by the Sainsbury review and the skills plan have been broadly welcomed—they produced 15 routes, which is a reasonable starting point and, sensibly and reasonably, the Minister has said that that number will be flexible—the broader picture is that the Government are trying to get everyone behind this new institute and its new policies. I will keep coming back to the target of 3 million apprenticeships because, even though it is not in the Bill, it is central to the success of the new institute.
Kelvin Hopkins
It is a pleasure to speak in this very important debate. I support what my hon. Friend has said. I have long been concerned about the problems with apprenticeships. Many of them are insecure and poor quality, and it has been alleged that they are sometimes simply a disguise for low-paid labour for young people. I would like to think that the institute will challenge that and ensure that we have good-quality, secure apprenticeships in the future, so we can build an economy that will compete effectively with those of other industrialised nations, which approach these things in a more rigorous way than we do.
In the evidence sessions, I drew attention to the research that Professor Sig Prais and others produced at the National Institute of Economic and Social Research in the 1980s and early ’90s, which contrasted Britain with Germany, Spain, Italy and other European countries, where the rigour of educating apprentices was so much greater and the quality of the employees who came out of that rigorous experience was much higher. Some documentary television programmes illustrated that, too.
Apprenticeships cannot be done on the cheap. We need much higher teacher-student contact hours, and we should have more rigorous and intensive pedagogic teaching. That is one thing that came out of Germany and other countries, where apprentices get many hours of rigorous teaching, so they must have, first, good teachers and, secondly, enough of them to do the job. I hope that the institute will look at that, too.
The chief executive of the Association of Colleges drew attention to the low funding per student in further education, in contrast with higher education. I made the point that in higher education in my days we would have one or two lectures a day, perhaps, and a couple of seminars or tutorials during the week, but we were left to our own devices to write our essays and do our maths and statistics projects. The intensity of teaching was much more restricted, although it was high quality and we had some very impressive lecturers. It is not like that in further education, where constant attention needs to be paid to the youngsters, who are sometimes not as academic as those of us fortunate enough to go through higher education.
In 1969, I moved to Luton—I now represent it—which was then a major industrial town. General Motors in Luton and Dunstable employed about 38,000 people. Every year, hundreds if not thousands of young people went into genuine secure apprenticeships. They were taken in at the age of 15 or 16, and they were sometimes pretty raw from school, but after five years of experience in industry, they came out with pretty good qualifications and secure jobs. They would be at different levels. Some would go on to take examinations—ordinary national certificate and higher national certificate—and some would even go on to associate membership of the engineering institutions. It depended on their abilities, but they would look forward to a good life of work within General Motors or other companies, with a good pension at the end of it. That kind of secure manufacturing experience has long disappeared for most people in Luton. The incomes of the people who live in my constituency have declined significantly in relative terms.
Electrolux and SKF, which makes bearings for cars, have declined. Some companies kept a nominal presence in the constituency. Electrolux used to make washing machines and vacuum cleaners. Indeed, my first experience on being elected to Parliament in 1997 was Electrolux getting rid of the last of its manufacturing; it was shipped out to Hungary, where labour was cheaper. We fought to oppose that, but we did not win, although Electrolux kept its office headquarters in my constituency, which pleased me. No doubt it still makes very fine equipment, but not in Luton. SKF still has a small number of people making high-quality bearings. They are kept only because they make such high-quality bearings; the mass of thousands of people making large numbers of bearings for industry has long since gone.
The Chair
Order. This is a fascinating discourse, but the hon. Gentleman is straying rather a long way from the purpose of the clause. If he could refocus slightly, that would be helpful to the Committee.
Kelvin Hopkins
Thank you, Mr Bailey. I was aware that I was straying from the subject. As I said, I taught in further education myself. I have taught a small number of day-release students as well, mainly A-levels in economics, politics and statistics. My experience was not very long—three years or so—but it was a great experience that has coloured my politics ever since. I know the difficulties of training young people.
Another problem that we have had is that, because of the reduction in employer size, there are fewer employees, and it is harder for a small employer to sustain an apprentice without a proper levy system with heavy state subsidy. I think that the levy system is exactly right; I would like it to be more extensive, so that we can give apprentices secure employment with reasonable pay, while they are working and studying. Apprenticeships across the board need to be properly sustained financially and a levy system is the way forward. We are moving in that direction.
I have come across another problem. Small garages, for example, might take on an apprentice as a car mechanic, who might stay there for three years, but then that small garage might suddenly find that its apprentice has been poached by a big garage that does insurance work, which would be very lucrative and much more highly paid. The small garage loses out because it has put a lot of work and finance into training somebody who has been lost to a bigger employer. We ought to be training more people and giving more security to small employers to ensure that they can sustain an apprentice with similar and appropriate pay for a longer period.
There is a lot for the institute to address. I welcome the fact that we are moving in the right direction, but we must ensure that apprenticeships are high quality and secure, not just because our young people should have the right to good training, education and skills, but because our country and its economy needs those people to do well.
Robert Halfon
I could listen to the hon. Member for Luton North for a long time on this subject, because he speaks with a lot of wisdom. I have been to the north-east of England to see young people on five-year apprenticeships in companies, doing exactly the things that he talks about.
I will just say that the public and private sectors will be following the same standards. We have exactly the same standards on training and quality, and we are introducing a public sector target from April 2017 in all areas to increase the number of apprenticeships in the public sector: 30,000 by 2020.
I will respond to the points made by the hon. Member for Blackpool South. He is kind about me and it is good to be opposing someone who also cares passionately. I very much enjoyed the visit to Blackpool and the Fylde College. What it is doing is extraordinary, not just for students but for the long-term unemployed.
I will comment on a few things, given that we are about to discuss amendments. The hon. Gentleman said that the levy was an administrative challenge for the IFA. It is important that it has only an advisory role on funding caps. The implementation of the levy is for the Department and the Skills Funding Agency.
The hon. Gentleman talked about the apprenticeship target and how difficult it was. It is worth remembering that there have been 624,000 apprentice starts since May 2015. We have 899,400 apprenticeship participations in the 2015-16 year. That is the highest number on record. Of course, it is a challenge to reach a 3 million target, but we are on the way.
Gordon Marsden
The Minister is right to point to progress so far and I do not want to disparage that. He reminds us that implementation is for the Department and the Skills Funding Agency. I am well aware, of course, that David Hill, who is an extremely talented and assiduous civil servant, has been seconded to do precisely that as director of apprenticeships. I was puzzled, however, that the Minister made no reference to the Apprenticeship Delivery Board. I will not go into whether it will have tsars or not; that is for others to decide and the Minister to ponder.
When that board was announced, it was advertised as being a key part of the process of encouraging and driving up the numbers. It was not simply to be a bully pulpit, but it was to have a very direct and active role. Yet since the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi) stood down from that post, we seem to have heard very little out of the board. What is its role?
The Chair
Order. That was rather a long intervention. The hon. Gentleman can make a further speech if he wishes, but if he could make his interventions shorter, it would help the Minister.
Robert Halfon
I reassure the hon. Gentleman that the Apprenticeship Delivery Board is in full flow. I meet it and its chairman regularly. It goes up and down the country and works with businesses to encourage them to employ apprentices. Much of our success has been because of that board’s incredible work.
On frameworks and standards, the hon. Gentleman will know that 25% of frameworks will be gone by the end of this year. The 400 standards support around 340,000 apprenticeships. We hope by the end of the Parliament to have moved entirely from frameworks to standards. That is our target. As he knows, the standards will be determined by occupational maps based on labour market evidence and information about employer demand. We do not want to set an upper limit, because we need flexibility to respond to the economy. It will be up to the IFATE to plan the timescales for the review of those standards.
Robert Halfon
I want to get to the amendments, and no doubt the hon. Gentleman will bring some of these things up again at some point, so will he allow me to answer the questions?
The hon. Gentleman asks us to sign a blank cheque on IFA capacity. We are consulting on the Secretary of State’s strategic guidance letter to the IFA. The IFA’s shadow board will publish a draft operational plan. The hon. Gentleman is right that Peter Lauener, the shadow chief executive, is excellent. He has been working with Antony Jenkins, who is the shadow chair. The shadow IFA is working hard to get the institute’s operational plan up and running by April 2017, and that plan will be published soon. Progress is being made, and the institute will be set up in April 2017.
As the hon. Gentleman knows, the institute’s board and chair are being appointed. There are 60 core staff. The IFA will draw on many more people through engagement with employer panels, experts and more than 1,000 employees, so the IFA does have the necessary capacity. We are doing this carefully. The technical education bit will start a year later; the first course on the new route will start in 2019. We are doing everything that he wants. The institute has the necessary capacity, and we have the right people and board to run it.
On occupations not included in the 15 routes, if the hon. Gentleman remembers, the principal of his college said in the evidence session that it was possible to do different things, such as sports, through the academic route and applied general qualifications. We are not closing the door on those things, but 15 is regarded as the right number. We have analysed the labour market, and I think that it is right to have those 15 routes, which are, in essence, what our economy needs. On that basis, I believe that the expanded institute is the right body to be at the heart of the reforms—we are implementing the Sainsbury reforms—and the Government are committed to ensuring that the institute plays that role. Clause 1 should therefore stand part of the Bill.
Tracy Brabin (Batley and Spen) (Lab)
It has been interesting to listen to the Minister. I have one quick question. How will the nearly 900,000 apprentices currently on courses be channelled into those routes? If they are in retail, for which a route does not currently exist, what will happen to their course?
Robert Halfon
Current apprentices in the existing frameworks will not be affected. This will only be for new apprentices. Standards are being brought through, but people in the existing frameworks will not be affected by the changes.
Gordon Marsden
I am grateful to the Minister for his response and his customary courtesy. I am sure that this will not be the last time I say that we agree about the ends but not necessarily the means and whether they are adequate. It was interesting to hear what he had to say about the Apprenticeship Delivery Board; perhaps if it were a little more public-facing, we might know more about what it does.
It is easy to say that we are asking for a blank cheque on capacity, but we are not. We are asking, for all the stakeholders concerned, for some reassurance and some filling in of the current blank canvas in this area. The Minister has elaborated on the various functions and how marvellous they will be—it will all be marvellous, but only when we get the right number and the right sort of people. It is simply not convincing to say an elegant version of, “It’ll be all right on the night,” because it is not all right on the night at the moment. The clock is ticking, and we do not know where these people will come from.
If we were working in “government as usual” times, coming up to 18 months since the general election, a new Government would obviously want to push their major things through. In that situation, I would be less concerned about some of the vagueness and the blank canvas, but we are not in that situation. Three things have happened since the general election that give me and most people considerable concern about the capacity of the Department for Education and—I say this gently—the Ministers concerned to deliver on what they undoubtedly hope to do.
First, of course, we have a new Government, with a new Prime Minister and new Ministers, including the Minister present. I know very well, as do most people in this room, that when we have a new Government, we cannot just pick up from day one; there is an inevitable delay, with issues to be addressed. We factor that in, but nevertheless it is the case.
Secondly, as a result of the change of Government, the machinery of government changes brought skills and apprenticeships out of the then Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and into the Department for Education. I happen to think that that was by and large a good thing. It gives a more coherent, stronger, longer narrative. However, I have been around for long enough—frankly, so has the Minister—to know that the machinery of government changes do not happen smoothly; they cause delays and confusion. That is why so many people have been worried about the speed of this process. There are ways to deal with the necessity to do things relatively quickly. Put bluntly, we put more resources and more effort into them and call upon other areas to do so. I have seen little evidence of that so far.
If the Minister was working in this area with a Department that was of reasonable complement, we could have some confidence. However, I remind him that staffing levels at the Skills Funding Agency are down nearly 50% since 2011. There is a continuing and accelerating decline in National Apprenticeship Service staffing, and the Government closed—
The Chair
Order. The hon. Gentleman is straying into a rather broader debate. I ask him to refocus.
Gordon Marsden
I will refocus to the extent, Mr Bailey, of saying that all the issues I describe have a consequence on the effectiveness of the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education, which we are being asked to approve to set up as a new body. The Minister has not convinced us that that new body will have the capacity it needs to deliver all this. I have explained some of the reasons for that.
Kelvin Hopkins
I agree with my hon. Friend. Would it not be intelligent to look at what is done in other countries that are more successful at training people—notably Germany, which would be a good place to start—to compare the quality of apprenticeships and the resource that goes into training apprentices in those countries?
Gordon Marsden
Of course my hon. Friend is right, but one would also hope and think that the Department had done that already. There is a healthy industry of comparative studies out there, not just in the public sector but in the private sector. No doubt, the Department takes advantage of that. My point is that, if we want the institute to progress properly and to do everything it needs to do—what it says on the tin—we need more reassurance.
The final area on which we need reassurance is the implications of Brexit. Hon. Members might ask what Brexit has to do with the Institution for Apprenticeships and Technical Education. Well, a lot. If the Government do not manage to get the sort of money from, for example, European structural funds, which have traditionally supported the expansion of apprenticeships and small businesses in areas of the country with strong local enterprise partnerships, the Government’s ability to reach that figure will be affected. That is why we have to ask those questions about capacity, capability and join-up.
I have not even talked, you will be relieved to know, Mr Bailey—
Gordon Marsden
I have not even talked about the relationship of the new institute to the variety of other bodies, such as Ofsted and Ofqual, which were referred to in the evidence sessions, that are circling around wondering what their relationship to the institute will be. I make the point to the Minister that this is not business as usual or something of which he can say, “Well, it’ll be all right on the night,” because it is like playing four-dimensional chess at the moment. I do not know how good the Minister is at playing four-dimensional chess, but he might need to improve his skills if some of the problems that we are talking about come to pass.
Mike Kane
The only blank cheque on offer here is that the implementation plan for the institute will be published “in due course”. Is it not concerning, with the competing pressures of government, as my hon. Friend pointed out, that we just do not know when that implementation plan will be published?
Gordon Marsden
It is, but to be fair, Governments always say things will be done in due course. Anybody who has said, “Yes, Minister, of course; we have no plans to do this,” means that they are not going to issue a statement about it on that day, so I am not going to press the Minister too hard on the phrase “in due course”. However, I hope that the Christmas to which Peter Lauener referred in terms of the employment of the new people is the traditional Christmas and not, say, the Russian Christmas, or possibly even the Georgian Christmas, which I think comes at the end of January. We all know what used to happen to the autumn statement—full marks to the Chancellor for keeping it within autumn.
I think that I have said enough to emphasise our concerns about the way in which the institute will be supplied and its ability to proceed, but we do not want to hinder its setting up in any shape or form. It needs to be set up as soon as possible, so that it can get a move on with some of these things. We therefore do not intend to oppose the clause.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(David Evennett.)
Technical and Further Education Bill (Fourth sitting)
Thursday 24th November 2016
(7 years, 12 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Technical and Further Education Act 2017 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 24 November 2016 - (24 Nov 2016)
Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)
I beg to move amendment 9, in schedule 1, page 21, line 13, at end insert—
“(4) The Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education in performing its functions must have regard to the need to promote equality of opportunity in connection with access to and participation in Further and Technical Education.”
This amendment would ensure that the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education must have due regard for widening access and participation.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 10, in schedule 1, page 21, line 13, at end insert—
“(5) An apprenticeship target shall specify what proportion of new apprenticeships starts is to be applied to apprenticeships for people—
(a) who have been looked after children; and
(b) with disabilities.”
This amendment would ensure the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education sets targets to increase the number of apprenticeship starts made by care leavers and people with disabilities.
Gordon Marsden
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, Ms Dorries, and to begin discussing the series of amendments that we have so far tabled to the Bill. As I might have said this morning, having just come off the Committee that considered the Higher Education and Research Bill, I am struck by the fact that the same sorts of issue that we raised in relation to that Bill for students at higher education level are now appropriate to be raised for students at this level—apprenticeships and further and technical education.
Of course the difference, which we might want to contemplate, is that over recent years in higher education not only have issues relating to access and participation been high on the agenda, but, to their credit, both Governments—pre-2010 and subsequently—have taken some steps in that direction. Notably we had the creation under the Labour Government of the Office for Fair Access, but we never had a similar organisation for further education students and apprentices, so it seems appropriate to discuss this amendment today.
I am not necessarily expecting the immediate creation of an FE or technical education equivalent of OFFA, but I am certainly suggesting to the Government that at a time when we are trying to expand the number of apprenticeships and get parity of esteem for technical education, we should perhaps consider what priority that will have in the new Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education. Again, the words “Capacity, capacity, capacity” go around in my brain, but I will suspend that for this afternoon and focus simply on the principle and why the principle is very important.
By way of comparison, let me take us back to what the Higher Education and Research Bill said in establishing the office for students—an organisation that is not that dissimilar to the institute, although of course it is in terms of size and reach. Clause 2, entitled “General duties”, states:
“In performing its functions, the OfS must have regard to…the need to promote equality of opportunity in connection with access to and participation in higher education provided by English higher education providers”.
That duty to “have regard to” will of course cut across, in some areas, to technical education, because there will be higher skills in that area and there will be providers—FE colleges, for example—that are providing HE. However, when it comes to the broader picture—concentrating as a matter of public policy on what the Government might need to do to promote equality of opportunity and access to and participation in further and technical education—we have a significant way to go.
Shane Chowen, head of policy and public affairs at the Learning and Work Institute, gave evidence to us on Tuesday. He said that people with disabilities and learning difficulties and people from black and minority ethnic backgrounds have been famously under-represented in apprenticeships for a number of years, so why not use the introduction of this new institute to make a commitment in the Bill to improving access to apprenticeships for traditionally under-represented groups?
FE colleges and providers have already expressed concern to me about the Government’s focus when it comes to the 2 million apprenticeship target, but mandating the institute to widen access and participation would be beneficial for all parties. On top of that, the Government have set out their own laudable agenda to halve the disability employment gap. Only five in 10 disabled people have a job, compared with eight in 10 non-disabled people. Surely the Government should be using apprenticeships as a critical step towards eradicating that gap.
How, in practical terms, do we go about improving access and participation? They are fine words, but how do we actually put some sharp edges on them? One thing that I and many others would like the new institute to do is look at what might be done for groups who have traditionally been under-represented in pre-apprenticeship support and training. The Minister has already spoken about that issue, particularly with regard to traineeships. Again, I will not rehearse the history of traineeships, except to say that they were—I strongly believe that they still are—a good idea.
If we want not only to meet the targets that the Government have set for quality apprenticeships, but to ensure that those quality apprenticeships are evenly and fairly distributed among all groups, we must recognise that some groups will find it much more difficult to get to the frontline of competing for them without some prior training, support, guidance and so on. In my understanding, that was the original role of traineeships. I will not go into the swerves and views of different Ministers and different comments in the period of time since. For a variety of reasons—some to do with the restrictions that the Government placed on promoting anything other than apprenticeships at that time—traineeships did not really get the head start that, in my view, they deserved.
I welcome the Minister’s comments about traineeships, particularly about seeing them as an introductory route into apprenticeships. In that respect, traineeships would be particularly appropriate for the groups of people we might be thinking of when it comes to promoting equality of opportunity for access and participation. Traineeships are also appropriate for retraining because, after all, the institute has now been broadened out to take in technical education, not just apprenticeships. Traineeships could be used for retraining and non-apprenticeship skill access for the groups we are looking at.
One helpful option that the Government should utilise in the Bill—I am genuinely quite surprised that they have not, but maybe the commendable speed with which the Maynard review was completed has been a factor—would be to enshrine the Maynard review in law. I think that was mentioned on Second Reading, but I am not sure that I entirely followed where we were up to with the legal procedure. That would send an important signal. Therefore, although I do not want to create otiose legislation, I suggest to the Minister that there might be a mechanism to ensure that that admirable work is enshrined in law. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for North Swindon for his participation in that process, and indeed to the previous Skills Minister, both of whom worked very hard indeed to ensure that the review got its nod before the referendum—and, my goodness, considering what happened, it is just as well that they did. That would be a good thing to do.
We welcomed the opportunity to submit evidence to the taskforce that the Minister commissioned, and we welcome the Government’s intention to explore access to apprenticeships for those with learning disabilities and other, not always visible, impairments and to find recommendations for resolving that access. Will the Minister update the Committee on where the Government are on implementing the review’s recommendations? It is still early days, but that would be useful.
Schedule 1 is essentially about making sure that access and participation strategies are high up the list of things for the new institute to do, and of course that cannot be divorced from careers advice. I will not stray outwith the amendment, except to say that careers advice, and what has or has not been done for it in the past four or five years, has occupied some lively debates and been a cause of concern both across the sector and across the House. Everyone who has commented on careers advice, particularly careers advice in the school setting, has said that without adequate access to information, advice and guidance that encourages young people to take up apprenticeships, traineeships or, indeed, technical education, we will be hampered in reaching the access and participation strategies that we need.
The Minister has previously commented on the work of the Careers & Enterprise Company, which I have met. The Careers & Enterprise Company has positive goals, although I still have concerns about capacity. If we want to know where people who have become apprentices have found difficulties in access and participation, we need to hear their voice and their commentary.
The excellent 2016 survey by the Industry Apprentice Council, supported by EAL and Semta, produced statistics that strongly underline the importance of careers advice in this area. The Education Secretary has observed that there is no reason to doubt Ofsted’s finding that 80% of careers information, advice and guidance is below the necessary standard, even though schools have a statutory duty to provide impartial and detailed careers IAG. I am afraid that that was reflected in this year’s survey. The proportion of respondents from members of the Industry Apprentice Council who said that their information about apprenticeships had been poor or very poor remained high—it was 37% in 2014, 40% in 2015 and 35% in 2016. There was some improvement, but there is a considerable way still to go.
Tracy Brabin (Batley and Spen) (Lab)
To add to my hon. Friend’s statistics, in the evidence sessions we heard that the answer to careers advice was that it should happen in school at key stage 4. Statistically, only one in three teachers think that their school is fulfilling its statutory duty to provide decent careers advice, and 68% of students think that 16 is too early to make career choices. Working-class kids take longer to develop academically, and 42% of students said that they did not receive enough information, advice and guidance before A-levels. I add that to the plea for careers advice to be included in the Bill.
Gordon Marsden
My hon. Friend has been in the House for only a relatively short period of time, but she is making some absolutely excellent and spot-on points. In this context, we are concerned with the specific ways in which the measure will affect people’s ability to take up apprenticeships, and that is what I will focus on.
This is about more than information in schools; it is also about who can come into schools to influence people’s career choices. I, for one, have praised a number of companies for what they have done to offer apprenticeships to adults. In terms of young people, British Gas, for example, has for a number of years had a crack team of female ex-apprentices who go into schools and colleges to break down gender stereotypes. Without suggesting that the institute should be prescriptive in that respect, I think that it could and should encourage the breakdown of gender stereotypes in terms of applications for apprenticeships.
It works the other way around, as well. There is a young man in my constituency, a nurse, who has been very active in the campaign for NHS bursaries. We need more men in the nursing professions and the caring professions, and many of those people can come through apprenticeships. Again, there is a role for the institute. Incidentally, another issue is the commitment to continuous professional development, in which the new institute, particularly the technical education side, will play a role. We must be careful there as well to extend continuous professional development outwith the usual groups of people from a professional background.
Those are some of the issues of which we must take cognizance when considering the amendment. Unfortunately, the representative from the National Society of Apprentices was unable to give evidence on Tuesday due to a family illness, but the National Union of Students —it is important to add that the NUS figures are not dissimilar to those from the Industry Apprentice Council—has stated:
“We want the…government to invest in a truly national careers system that delivers impartial careers information, advice and guidance”,
and that in surveys, 21% of apprentices said that they had never received information about apprenticeships.
The NUS draws attention to a point that will not have escaped the Minister’s attention—I know that he was questioned closely on it by the Sub-Committee on Education, Skills and the Economy. The NUS found that the current approach to careers advice is exacerbating skills shortages. Those are some of the arguments that we believe it is important to take on board when considering the amendment.
I had a similar discussion in Committee with the Minister for Universities, Science, Research and Innovation. We did not always agree, but we came to some convergence of our views. It is important when establishing a new organisation to give some direction or guidance in the Bill establishing it, in this case in schedule 1. There should be some emphasis on the signals sent to the outside world about what sort of organisation it is going to be. Will it simply be a bog-standard Government quango or non-departmental public body, or will it be a forceful campaigning institution? We had a debate this morning about how campaigning it could be with a relatively modest workforce, but that makes the issue all the more important. Given the references that the Minister made, perfectly reasonably, to the range of people who will not be members of the institute but will be supportive, it is extremely important to send out the message in the Bill that the institute must have regard to that function.
That is extremely important, because governance in this area is relatively underdeveloped, when compared with governance in higher education, which the Minister for Universities, Science, Research and Innovation and I discussed during the Higher Education and Research Bill Committee. It may have been reasonable for him to have told me in that Committee that there was no need for me to worry about putting a measure in the Bill regarding the OFS, because the Government had been doing all these other things for years in that area. I did not agree with him, but he had a point. The point about this measure is that although we are not exactly in the stone age when it comes to access and participation, we are certainly nowhere near as far down the line as in higher education.
Amendment 10 continues that theme, but in more specific fashion. It would require the Government to specify in its apprenticeship targets the proportion of new apprenticeship starts for those who were looked-after children, and for people with disabilities. It would ensure that the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education increased the number of apprenticeship starts by care leavers and people with disabilities, so it is linked to the strategy arguments for access and participation that we put in amendment 9.
It is curious how targets are sometimes set; the Government already have targets to increase the proportion of black and minority ethnic apprentices by 20%. It might make sense for them to do the same for people with disabilities and care leavers, though I do not say what the proportion should be. We also seek clarification from the Minister on the progress on the BME targets, if he has those figures to hand. Those targets were set under the previous Government and were never formally incorporated in legislation. It would be helpful if the Minister could confirm that the Government were still working to meet those targets. My right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), having fought the good fight, with others, on apprenticeship funding in disadvantaged areas—the Minister listened to his arguments—has also been pressing on these issues due to the nature of his constituency.
The Government’s apprenticeship funding proposals last month recognised that 19 to 24-year-old apprentices who had previously been in care, or who had a local education authority health and care plan, might need extra support. The majority of respondents to the Government survey supported that, with more than twice as many agreeing with the proposal than disagreed: 53% to 26%.
I make a more generic observation that it would be helpful for the Minister to consider: in recent years, in debates on apprenticeships and where they should be focused, a dichotomy has often been proposed between adult apprenticeships for those who are over 24, and apprenticeships for those who are 16 to 18-year-olds, with a greater focus on the latter. I have sometimes felt that we needed to shine more light on 19 to 24-year-olds generally as a target area, because that range often includes people who have had all sorts of problems, sometimes of their own making, and sometimes absolutely not; I am thinking of family circumstances and issues of bereavement, and a number of them have been carers. I know of nearly 1,000 young people in Blackpool who are actively caring for family members.
I have always taken the view that the 19-to-24 range is a crucial cohort from which we should be recruiting apprentices. Even though those young people might have fallen by the wayside before 19 for whatever reason, they often bring with them zeal, experience of hard knocks, and a desire to do even better during the apprenticeship period. That is particularly important. Of course, the Government have recognised the importance of looked-after young people by extending the remit of their care plans up to the age of 25. I pay tribute to the Minister for Vulnerable Children and Families for that. It is a good start, but it is important to guarantee that every necessary step is then taken to ensure access and opportunity for care leavers.
Looked-after children achieve less highly at GCSE than their counterparts and often miss out on parts of education. There may be a history of abuse in their background.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
I am interested in my hon. Friend’s comments on looked-after children. They may have been held back in education not because of a lack of ability, but because of their disturbed personal circumstances. Given a secure environment, they can in fact progress, probably more rapidly than others, and become very effective employees and good citizens.
Gordon Marsden
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. He raises a whole subset of questions that we cannot go into this afternoon about the strength of support in schools for young people in those circumstances. That ties in with what I was coming on to say. The Special Educational Consortium, which has submitted evidence to the Committee, along with Barnardo’s, has made some important points. There are real challenges, because less than half of disabled people are in employment, compared with 80% of the non-disabled population, and only 5.8% of adults with a learning disability who are known to local authorities are in a job, which underlines the importance of the Maynard review. On top of that, the proportion of apprentices with learning disabilities has decreased: it was 11% in 2010-11 and is only 8% now. But the good news is that for all apprentices, the success rate of completing their frameworks has risen considerably, and that is true for those with disabilities as well.
The climate for advice on apprenticeships for those with disabilities has declined markedly. Jobcentre Plus’s own disability employment service has a ratio of only one adviser providing support for every 600 disabled people, which was a key cause of concern highlighted by a Work and Pensions Committee inquiry in 2014. In answer to a written question in October 2015, Ministers revealed that the number of jobcentres employing at least one full-time equivalent disability employment adviser had fallen from 226 in 2011 to just 90 in 2015. The Minister may be familiar with the comprehensive Little and Holland review that in 2012 made some 20 recommendations in this policy area. We are not here today to solve the problems of the Department for Work and Pensions or jobcentres, but all that underlines the importance of those targets being firmly in the mind of the institute and, indeed, in the minds of the Minister and his colleagues.
Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. I just want to add a few comments about disabled people, which will come as no surprise given my former role. I echo the comments on the importance and, crucially, the opportunities that apprenticeships provide to predominantly younger disabled people. That context is right: 81% of non-disabled people in this country expect to be in work, and for those with a disability that is 48%—up 4% since we came to office and an increase of 590,000 jobs in the past three years. That equates to about 500 to 600 extra disabled people into work a day. For those with a learning disability, though, the figure is about 6%.
All political parties and Governments of all persuasions have tried tweaks but very little changes. I saw on my visits that those with a learning disability need patient, one-to-one support to get them into work, and to me, that was an apprenticeship. That is the whole point of an apprenticeship—to give those tangible, real-life skills. I went on some brilliant visits to places that provided the equivalent of an apprenticeship, such as Foxes Academy hotel near Bridgwater. As many as 80% of their students remained in work at the end of their three-year course. The only limitation was that the third year in-work training—the equivalent of the apprenticeship —did not qualify for apprenticeship funding and it was too expensive to have an unlimited cap on those numbers. Of that 80% who stay in work, 48.8% were paid. Not all of them were paid or in full-time work but, having spoken to their parents, I know that that made a real difference to each and every one of them.
That is why I triggered the review carried out by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard). I was delighted to see the outcomes. The then Minister for Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), and I signed it off three days before the reshuffle because we had a feeling that it was important to do that quickly in case something changed. I would welcome an update from the Minister on how he will ensure that the institute prioritises spreading that information. My understanding is that someone who has a learning disability will be exempt from the requirement for a C grade in Maths and English GCSE, which is a hurdle too far for many of these young adults.
During consideration of a previous amendment there was some talk about a target. I understand targets; I did A-level maths, so I get quite geeky with numbers—that is how I remember all these stats. However, I gently caution Members that we need to learn the lessons of HE figures. At each general election, each political party used to suddenly announce that we would have a slightly higher proportion of people going to university. It was like an arms race with students. The reality is that some people who have gone to university to meet those targets would have been better served doing something like an apprenticeship. The wheel has gone full circle, and here we are now.
We do not want to shoehorn some people artificially into doing what we think is the right thing when it is not right for them. A lesson I learned as Minister for Disabled People is that each and every person is an individual with their own unique challenges and opportunities. As tempting as it can be to have targets, because they focus minds, I would be more assured if the Minister committed to meet institute representatives twice a year with this matter the first item on the agenda, and if we as individual MPs met these organisations and sought to hold them to account.
The hon. Member for Blackpool South made a fair point about disability advisers, but the DWP did listen and make changes. Disability advisers are now returning to every single jobcentre—there are roughly 500 more—so we are basically back to where we were at the very beginning. We can call that a score draw. Even when the Department reduced the number of disability of advisers, it was not to have less support for people with disabilities; the idea was that all staff would be trained to be fully disability-aware, but it has been recognised that having somebody with specialist skills in every jobcentre is probably better, so things have gone right back to how they were.
Kelvin Hopkins
It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair again this afternoon, Ms Dorries. I strongly support the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South and the case he made for them. I am also sympathetic to what the hon. Member for North Swindon said.
I have some knowledge of these issues. In general, it is so important for all citizens to have a sense of worth, and having some form of education or having a job gives us that. Without that sense of worth, we can become not only alienated and miserable, but difficult people in society. All sorts of problems arise when people do not have a proper role in society. Even if one has disabilities, to be able to have a real role among one’s fellow human beings is so important.
I particularly wish to discuss adults with moderate learning difficulties. Some 15 years ago or so, a friend invited me to speak to a class of young adults with moderate learning difficulties at my local college. I spoke fairly briefly about politics and about what I did and then they asked questions. I have to say that I could not answer the first two questions, which were very perceptive and intelligent. One was about benefits—they were very conscious about benefits and the rules governing them. I was not up to speed on that, so I was in difficulty there. The young man’s second question was why Tony Blair had abandoned socialism. I have to say that on both counts I was completely floored. I had to say that I could not speak for the Prime Minister, but that I had not abandoned socialism.
That experience showed me that these young adults were not daft. They had things to say and they had an understanding of the world. With the right courses and, if possible, the right apprenticeships, they could find some employment at some point. For example, recently, in one of our supermarkets, the young man who collects the trolleys and pushes them to the collection points for customers has moderate learning difficulties, but he has a job; he is a character; everyone knows him and he is happy. We ought to organise the world so that such things can happen.
Amendments such as the one tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South ought to be on the face of every Bill relating to education, training and employment, so that it becomes deeply embedded in our culture. Some employers and teachers, although they would not necessarily discriminate wittingly, might do so unwittingly without such things in their mind. They need to be aware that they must be fair and provide equal opportunities. Some employers are notorious for discriminating against women. That is changing, but we still have some way to go to ensure that women have equal shares with men. We do not have equal pay yet.
We have also talked about minority ethnic communities. Again, it is particularly those who are unemployed and live in poorer areas who sometimes get into difficulty or trouble. If they had jobs, it might be different. There was a time in my own town when anybody could literally knock on the door at Vauxhall and get a job. It might not be a very skilled job, but they could get one.
On the difficulties on the streets, an interesting statistic featured in The Guardian some years ago: when unemployment rose to 3 million in the early 1980s, street disorder and street crime took off like a rocket. It is not surprising. All those young men whose energy would have been absorbed putting wheels on cars or doing whatever they would have been doing were on the streets, with nothing better to do than cause trouble. I have always been a passionate believer in organising society to ensure full employment. Some years ago, I was chair of a Back-Bench group with outside members called the Full Employment Forum, started by the renowned Bryan Gould, one of the leading Labour politicians, who is still a friend.
On looked-after children, I said in an intervention that it is important for them to be given extra advantage, because they have had disadvantages in early life. Perhaps their education has been disrupted by their being absent from school, moving house or being generally disturbed and unhappy in education, but they might have abilities way beyond the level of education that they received, so it is important that they are given an extra boost through an apprenticeship or a college education. Providing them with security, hope for the future and a stable and predictable environment in life is important to giving them a sense of optimism and increase their self-worth.
I think these two amendments should, in one form or another, be made. I hope that at some point—maybe today, or maybe not—such amendments can be incorporated into the Bill in its final form. I am happy to support them, and I congratulate my hon. Friend on moving them.
The Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills (Robert Halfon)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. I will respond to some of the issues raised. The hon. Member for Batley and Spen talked about careers guidance in schools, and I agree with her. The first ever speech that I made in the House of Common was about the problem of careers guidance in schools not encouraging people to do technical education or apprenticeships. We must consider the issue holistically, from primary school all the way through. Although it is not part of the Bill, I am considering from the start how we deal with the issue.
That said, we are investing £90 million in careers. The Careers & Enterprise Company has 1,190 enterprise advisers and a £5 million careers and enterprise fund. I have seen myself how they go into schools to boost provision on technical education and apprenticeships, to encourage work experience and to build links between businesses and schools. There is also a separate £12 million mentoring fund, which I am very keen on.
Gordon Marsden
I thank the Minister for that positive and thoughtful set of responses. I agree with him on the issue of disabilities. I have had disability in my own family; how disability is defined and classified is not necessarily whether someone is in a wheelchair. We do not need to go into all of that—we all know that. If the Minister is saying that one should not have a target for people with, in inverted commas, “disability”, I would agree with him.
There is one point that he has not replied to, but he does not need to come back to me on it now; he could perhaps write to me. The reason for tabling the amendment was that I understood that the Government already had a set target in relation to black, Asian and minority ethnic people. If that is the case, it is important that we at least consider whether that should be balanced against other targets. Perhaps we need to consider whether we should have targets in the first place, but if that target exists, and the institute comes in without other targets for other people, people will inevitably draw certain conclusions. They may be completely erroneous conclusions, but people may draw them.
Having said that, I am encouraged by what the Minister said. I too will reflect on what we have said. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Gordon Marsden
I beg to move amendment 11, in schedule 1, page 22, line 14, at end insert
“following consultation with institutions, students and employers, and their representatives”.
This amendment would ensure that the Government must consult with institutions, students and employers, and their representatives before making changes to the “occupational categories” or “routes”.
The amendment would ensure that the Government consult with institutions, students, employers and their representatives before making changes to the occupational categories or routes. You were not with us this morning, Ms Dorries, but we had quite a detailed discussion around occupational categories and routes, so I will try not to repeat the arguments that we had—people can read them in Hansard.
If there are concerns and controversies about the different routes—for instance, about whether the service sector is adequately represented in the existing routes—that gives even more force to the argument that there should be as broad a consultative and collaborative process as possible. It should not hold up the processes; I am conscious that consultations can go on and on endlessly.
As it stands, the Bill enables the Secretary of State to propose categories for those routes without any further input. It simply requires the Secretary of State to notify the IFA of any changes. I say to the Minister what I said to his counterpart on the Higher Education and Research Bill: although I genuinely have every confidence in his wish to consult, and, for that matter, in the Secretary of State’s wish to consult, we are setting down legislation that will last for a significant number of years, so we have to be careful that we do not hook everything on to the whim of a Secretary of State. After all—we made this argument about the Higher Education and Research Bill—if a new institution is to succeed, it has to have the active and enthusiastic participation of as many of the people who are affected by it as possible. A consultation with institutions, students, employers and their representatives is a necessary part of the process.
A further point is that there is a balance to be struck —the Minister will be well aware of this, because it is a continuing and intensifying debate—between the bespoke skills that are needed for immediate jobs and the enabling skills for more generic future employment. There will always be a tension between the needs of an employer and the needs of an employee—they might be a student or an apprentice—in whichever skills area. After all, in the 21st century we will not all have, as my father was promised before the second world war, a job for life.
We will probably see young people who—I am sure we have all used this phrase, one way or another—do five careers during their lifetime, two of which have not yet been thought of. It is therefore even more important that we have that broad process of ongoing consultation about how generic, as opposed to bespoke, skills should be, so that not only do we get the skills that we need for the future, but young people and adults wanting to return to work or start a new career get the skills that they need.
Robert Halfon
I welcome the opportunity to debate the amendment, and understand why Opposition Members support it. It is important to understand the purpose of occupational categories, which we refer to as routes in the technical education reforms we are putting in place, and how they relate to the overall system we are developing. The routes are the main ways that learners will find their way around the new system. They provide clear and accurate signposts to the new qualifications.
Lord Sainsbury’s report proposed a system that has
“employer-designed standards...at its heart”,
which is what we have created. He urged that there be a common framework of standards, covering both apprenticeships and college-based provision. Those standards are the basis of the new technical education system we have created. In essence, the standards are the knowledge, skills and behaviours required to perform the occupation.
Presentationally, it does not help to have hundreds of different standards, completely distinct from one another. It is better to group them together to make it easier for people to understand how to navigate through the system. The routes give us a mechanism to do that. I shall not go through it again, but on Second Reading I set out how, if someone went down the engineering route, that would be reflected if they then chose a different branch of engineering.
Earlier, we discussed best practice overseas—I think the hon. Member for Luton North mentioned it—and our system does reflect international best practice. It was reviewed with employers, academics and professional bodies as the Sainsbury panel developed its proposals. The routes are each based on evidence-based occupational maps, on which we have to consult widely. The institute will take on board a wide range of views when developing the occupational mapping, which will then feed into the shape of the routes. It will have to help to ensure that the routes are aligned with the needs of the economy and the industrial strategy, so that young people and adults can make the choices they need to make when they move into skilled technical occupations.
Route panels—panels of professionals—and employers have been consulted to ensure that the institute gets it right, so it is not necessary to consult on the routes separately. Nevertheless, there will of course be an ongoing need to keep the route structure under review—it is flexible—and to continue to listen to the feedback from stakeholders. In view of that, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will feel reassured enough to withdraw the amendment.
Gordon Marsden
I thank the Minister for that explanation, which is helpful. I hear what he says, but I am still not entirely reassured. I understand the process; indeed, I understand the process laid out by Lord Sainsbury in the skills plan. The point I was trying to make, and to which I referred this morning when I discussed the responses from the Association of Employment and Learning Providers and various others, is that there remains considerable unease—I will put it no more strongly than that—about whether the routes cover a large enough area of the skills or sectors we will need for the future. That is separate from the issue I raised about enabling skills.
I am not rubbishing the existing routes at all, but the matter needs to be thought about and watched very carefully. I can understand what the Minister is saying about not having everything chopped into silos, but I would not want him to think that certain areas, particularly the service sector, can be ignored just because he has been told that this is the route to follow. Nevertheless, it was a probing amendment. I was interested in what the Minister had to say, and we can always return to the matter on Report if we are not happy. On that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(David Evennett.)
Technical and Further Education Bill (Fifth sitting)
Tuesday 29th November 2016
(7 years, 11 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Technical and Further Education Act 2017 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 29 November 2016 - (29 Nov 2016)
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 5 / Noes: 8 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Chair
Members may remove their jackets during the sitting. Would everyone ensure that all electronic devices are turned off or switched to silent? The selection list for today’s sittings is available in the room. I have used my discretion to select amendments that were tabled only on Friday, for which the usual period of notice has therefore not been given, as I am satisfied that it was not practicable for Committee members to consider fully the policy statement supplied by the Government on Wednesday in time to table amendments before the deadline. I remind Members that we will consider the clauses and schedules in the order set out in the programme motion that was agreed last Tuesday, which is set out at the end of the amendment paper. We will now resume consideration of schedule 1.
Schedule 1
The Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education
Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)
I beg to move amendment 12, in schedule 1, page 23, line 6, at end insert—
‘(4A) The Institute must, in approving the group of persons specified in subsection (3), have regard to the desirability of the group’s members between them having experience of—
(a) representing or promoting the interests of individual students and apprentices, or students and apprentices generally;
(b) providing technical and further education;
(c) providing apprenticeships;
(d) at least one relevant trade union official;
(e) employing those who have completed technical and further education courses or apprenticeships; and
(f) any additional knowledge or profession that the Institute considers relevant.”
This amendment would ensure that the groups formed to set standards for the “routes” in technical and further education have relevant experience and include students in the process.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 28, in schedule 1, page 23, line 6, at end insert—
‘(4A) The Institute, in carrying out its functions under this section, must show due regard for broad representation and diversity amongst the group of persons preparing each standard, including—
(a) gender and
(b) the representation of both large and small employers.”
Amendment 13, in schedule 1, page 23, line 20, at end insert—
(c) information about matters that it takes into account when deciding whether or not to convene a group of persons to prepare a standard for the purposes of subsection (6).”
This amendment would require the Institute to publish information about its reasons for convening, or choosing not to convene, a group of persons to prepare a standard for an occupation.
Gordon Marsden
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. I express our thanks for the latitude given with regard to the amendments tabled on Friday, which is very welcome.
The commonality in these amendments is that they are designed to ensure that those who are involved in setting the standards for routes in technical and further education have relevant experience and that, where possible, students are included in the process. Amendment 13 would require the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education to publish information about its reasons for convening or choosing not to convene a group of persons to prepare a standard for an occupation.
The skills plan consistently talks about the institute being employer-led, with college-based learning being decided by employer groups. That is precisely why further education colleges, other training providers and learners are an essential component of the roll-out and delivery of standards and assessments. I cannot emphasise enough how essential it is for the groups formed to set standards for the routes in technical and further education to have wide-ranging representation, including all key components of apprenticeship creation and delivery. The Minister will no doubt have heard several times—if he has not, I am sure he will in future—the term “co-creation” or “co-production”, which has come from many of the people in those groups.
Our vision for apprenticeships, which I hope the Government share, requires input from further education providers and colleges, and especially universities, given the crucial role of higher skills and degree apprenticeships. I will not labour the point that I made previously about how important it is, particularly in the context of higher skills and degree apprenticeships, that there is good read-across and co-operation between the office for students and the new institute, as well as the relevant trade unions, which have key experience, to ensure a broad outlook on new frameworks and accreditations. We believe that including apprentices and learners in that process is vital.
A representative of the National Society of Apprentices, which Members will know is associated with the National Union of Students, was scheduled to give evidence to the Committee last Tuesday, but unfortunately she was unable to attend because of illness. However, the National Society of Apprentices has said:
“At the moment, apprentices have no real opportunities to improve their education. Although most students going through the ‘traditional’ education system at college or university are able to give feedback through their class representative system, similar structures do not exist for apprentices.”
There is also the Industry Apprentice Council—I referred to it in a previous sitting—which is strongly supported by EAL and the Science, Engineering, Manufacturing and Technologies Alliance. Of course, there are other groups, such as the valuable group that Lindsay McCurdy and her colleagues convene, particularly around Apprenticeship Week, which involves a large number of different sorts of apprentices. Apprentices should be able to influence the way in which their training is developed and carried out. After all, they know from the frontline what has been helpful and successful for them and what has not. I hope that the Minister, who has been very passionate in his support of both apprenticeships and apprentices, appreciates that point.
It is also quite unclear what role there will be in the institute for workforce representatives and trade unions. I think it is appropriate to talk about that on a day when the Government, and particularly the Prime Minister, have again signalled their strong interest in making sure that, in some shape or form—the details will obviously have to be hammered out—there should be more workforce representatives involved in companies.
The TUC has said that it is crucial that
“Trade unions must be given a central role in setting and monitoring quality standards”
for technical education. After all, that is common practice in leading European economies with high-quality skill systems in place. Those systems are largely based on a social partnership model, which involves employers and unions agreeing standards and best practice at both national and sectoral level. Social partnerships have been key to the success of high-quality vocational routes in other countries, so I suggest that we would do well to take that lesson into account for our reforms of technical education. With particular regard to amendment 12, we might make a start in considering the composition of the groups formed to set standards for the routes. That is why I think it is important to give some form of direction to the new institute and its board of directors on that matter.
All the issues involved in getting the right sort of broad-based input are extremely important, because we have to get the routes right. We welcome the detailed and thoughtful proposals of the Sainsbury group. The Government are now, after some dithering, taking a new approach to the wilderness that has so far characterised aspects of skills policy, particularly in the technical and vocational areas. However, the devil is in the detail, and a number of stakeholders believe that the skills plan is not without fault. I mentioned in a previous sitting that the Opposition share the concerns of groups such as the Association of Employment and Learning Providers, and various others that we have quoted, about the potentially limited scope of the routes. I also spoke about the crucial role of the service sector, which will potentially provide huge numbers of apprentices with jobs and make sure that they are not left out of the process.
The Sainsbury review was clear that only jobs with technical aspects will be included within the 15 routes. I do not know whether the Minister was present at the recent Association of Colleges conference, as I was—I was not actually there when Lord Sainsbury spoke, but I read his remarks. I think there was some concern that he was—dismissive is perhaps the wrong word—too light on the importance of a significant number of jobs that are non-technical occupations, which currently lie outside the scope of these routes. I want to make it clear that we are not criticising the initial number of 15, and we are not necessarily arguing for the creation of lots more routes, but we are saying that, as this process develops, it is important that the Government generally, and the new institute in particular, pay attention to those jobs and to that training. We have to consider carefully the impact of workforce development in those sectors.
That brings me to amendment 13, which would
“require the Institute to publish information about its reasons for convening, or choosing not to convene, a group of persons to prepare a standard”.
The amendment’s underlying principle is transparency, because it is important to be able to monitor who is preparing the standards, in order to ensure that those standards will meet all of the requirements. However, it is also important as a signal of confidence to the broad range of stakeholders, who will not necessarily be directly involved in preparing the standards. The setting up of the new institute will be a busy period. With so many organisations involved in the process, transparency is crucial to provide students with the best available standards and to keep the rest of the stakeholders well informed.
I must again raise the vexed issue of capacity: the capacity of employers to put what they need to into the process, but also the capacity of the institute for oversight of quality assessment. We will move on to that when considering another aspect of the Bill. I just observe for the moment that the phraseology used in the guidance to the Green Paper is that there will be other options available, including Ofqual, professional bodies and others, and that some or all of those bodies may charge for doing it—or presumably not charge.
With those variables and parameters, there is inevitably some doubt about capacity, elasticity and the unpredictability of delivery from the new institute, certainly in the first couple of years, because other providers and options might have been taken up in the process of preparing standards. That inevitably raises concerns about whether the numbers for the new institute, as provisionally set out by Peter Lauener and confirmed by the Minister, will be adequate or what process there will be for boosting them if this somewhat variable geometry about who might take up the institute, as opposed to Ofqual and others, comes to pass.
Those are important issues and, again, a number of different agencies have commented on them. I draw the Minister’s attention to the written evidence submitted by the Association of Employment and Learning Providers, which states:
“Through its proposed funding mechanisms, the Government is encouraging employers and providers to move from Apprenticeship frameworks to standards by reducing the prices payable for frameworks, even though many standards are not yet in place. This makes it very difficult for providers to judge and therefore plan whether future provision will be viable. As has been reported in the sector press, apprentices have also started on Apprenticeships under a new standard without an EPA being in place, which means they have no means to complete it.”
That is the AELP’s view. I am not necessarily saying that I share it; I am just saying that this is one of the issues out there. It continues:
“The situation is exacerbated by the Government’s insistence that employers can negotiate with providers on the price of training and assessment.”
I would not necessarily agree with the AELP on that point—not in every detail—but the essence of what it says is this:
“Reform proposals may not currently be giving sufficient weight to the input of stakeholders and the concerns of and about learners, which must be rectified by the inclusion of stakeholder representatives on the Board of the Institute. We are therefore supportive in principle of the amendments to Schedule 1 of the Bill which have been tabled jointly by Gordon Marsden MP and Mike Kane MP.”
The AELP makes the strong point that the number of standards being developed, and the investment in time and resource required to develop them, could be leading to
“‘employer fatigue’ and a drop in employer engagement.”
We have also had written evidence from the Centre for Vocational Education Research. I know that the Government Whip is deeply interested in the bona fides of people who submit evidence to Committees.
The Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty’s Treasury (David Evennett)
Absolutely.
Gordon Marsden
We had a lively exchange on the issue when the Higher Education and Research Bill was in Committee. For the sake of the Whip, and indeed the whole Committee, let me explain that this evidence was prepared by the Centre for Vocational Education Research, whose people are stuffed full of qualifications from the London School of Economics. Even better—we cannot get much better than this—the Centre for Vocational Education Research is funded by the Department for Education and was launched in 2015. It states in its written evidence:
“An employer-led body as proposed by the Bill, in particular in the more competitive labour market of the UK, which does not engage with all relevant stakeholders, will not be able to achieve similar outcomes”
as they do in
“coordinated market economies…in Scandinavian and Western European countries”.
It states that the institute needs to
“bring together all relevant actors beyond the Department for Education and employers.”
It references unions,
“because of their role in life-long learning in the workplace”.
It also states:
“Associations of colleges and learning providers need a clear role in the Institute, and student associations and associations concerned with the interests of particular groups”—
I will not dwell on this now, Ms Dorries, because this will come up with one of our later amendments—
“also need to be involved from the start.”
It suggests that:
“Careers advice and…employment services…essential to balance short and long-term supply and demand in the labour market, need to be similarly engaged.”
That is the view of the Centre for Vocational Education Research, which touches on the three amendments.
I again underline a point made in the evidence submitted by the TUC, which specifically referred to the important role of the union learning fund. This year is the 10th anniversary of the official establishment of the union learning fund. The TUC commissioned an evaluation by academics at Leeds University Business School and the University of Exeter, based on surveys of employees engaged in training through the ULF and their employers. I will refer to two or three of the key findings. Over two thirds of learners with no previous qualification attained their first qualification as a result of engaging in union-led training. Four in five employees said that they had developed skills that they could transfer to a new job. And two in three said that those made them more effective in their current job.
Equally importantly, half of the employers said that
“their staff were more committed as a result of unions facilitating training and development opportunities.”
Separate analysis showed:
“Union-led training delivers an estimated net contribution to the economy of more than £1.4 billion as a result of a boost to jobs, wages and productivity.”
Those are also cogent points for broadening representation.
Finally, amendment 28 asked for the institute to show
“due regard for broad representation and diversity amongst the group of persons preparing each standard, including—
(a) gender and
(b) the representation of both large and small employers.”
For both your information, Ms Dorries, and the information of the Minister, this is a probing amendment, so we did not intend to include a list of all the potential groups that might be included; that would not have been appropriate at this stage. The reasons why we have highlighted those two are fairly obvious, I hope. First, the gender issue has already bulked large in our conversations in Committee. Secondly, because of the key role of large and, in particular, small employers—the Minister will know about the discussions on the delivery of the apprenticeship levy—it is crucial that those groups are involved.
The Minister sang the praises of the Apprenticeship Delivery Board the other day. It may be a fine body, but it was actually made up of members drawn from a relatively narrow section of business and, incidentally, had only one woman among its number. There was no role for others, such as further education providers, universities, trade unions and local authorities. There has been some progress with the number of women on the ADB—it has increased to three—but it is important that those lessons are taken on to a broad representation and diversity being found among the group of persons preparing each standard.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to see you chairing our proceedings again this morning, Ms Dorries. I support the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South.
I do not want to be immodest, but I do have considerable experience in this field. I spent four years as the chair of governors at Luton College of Higher Education, which had welcomed thousands of apprentices through its doors. I have spent a total of 30 years on post-16 education governing bodies so I have very definite views. I have worked in the trade union movement; I was at the TUC for five years and I taught on trade union courses, so I have seen the involvement of the TUC and the trade unions in education. I spent 18 years working for NALGO and then Unison, which had a large department of education and undertook correspondence courses for local government officers.
I have seen a whole range of activities that are relevant to apprenticeships and post-16 education in the broadest sense, and I have definite views on what governing bodies should be like. They should not be too small or too large; they can become ungainly and unco-ordinated if they are too large. Equally, if they are too small and narrow in experience, they do not do a good job. I have seen both.
There is an optimum size for governing bodies, but I am talking about educational institutes, rather than the board of the institute. That board, however, will need the same kind of representation and a range of skills, and I have spoken in previous sittings about the importance of not having too narrow a field. If one has only a particular kind of business-led model, with small numbers of businesspeople of the same mindset and no challenge to that view, they will not necessarily pick up all the important issues that need to be discussed and considered when the board makes decisions and recommendations. Having a small body from a narrow field is not right.
The 1993 incorporation of post-16 education bodies—further education and sixth-form colleges—came from the then Government insisting on small, business-led governing bodies, which was a mistake. The governing body of which I was a member did not follow that model; we had a range of people with educational skills, a good degree of gender balance, and people from the community who were skilled in their fields and visibly representative of the very diverse community in which I live and which I represent. That is important as well. We also had skilled people with legal and financial qualifications. All that is so important in having a successful governing body.
One has to submit oneself to challenge if one is leading an important body, and intelligent, competent people have to be on board who have a range of views and will challenge things from time to time, but who will work positively and be supportive. The body should not go off in one direction, not be challenged and make mistakes. Mistakes have been made.
Even back in the 1990s, there were mistakes and some principals and leaders of educational institutions got out of control. They started paying themselves vast salaries and travelling abroad—ostensibly to recruit students, but actually they were just on jollies and looking after themselves. The Conservative Government of the time realised they had made a mistake and in the end came round to the kind of governing body that we had in the sixth-form college. It was a body of about 14 or 15 people, with a range of skills and representation. It is very important for the Government to recognise this point and to recommend, either in the Bill or through secondary legislation, what governing bodies and the board of the institute should look like. In particular, there should be representation from women, minority communities and trade unions, all of whom have expertise that will make the board function much better than if it was just led by a small group of businessmen.
As we know, the Confederation of British Industry and the Federation of Small Businesses often have different perspectives on business representation. The CBI typically represents global corporations, big business, banks and so on, whereas the FSB has an understanding of what it is like to be a small businessperson and of the needs of small companies. As my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South said, it is very important that small companies are represented, as well as large companies, and that we have those different perspectives.
I have probably said enough to reinforce my hon. Friend’s points and to try to persuade the Minister and the Government that what we are saying is sensible. It should be recognised and, at some point, included either in the legislation or recommendations by the Government. With those few words, I shall conclude.
The Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills (Robert Halfon)
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Blackpool South for tabling the amendment, and to him and the hon. Member for Luton North for what they have just said. I fully understand the concerns regarding the group of persons convened by the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education to develop the standards, and I agree that the reforms to technical education should be informed by a balanced and diverse range of industry professionals. I also share the view that the institute should have a clear and transparent rationale for bringing together groups of persons to develop the standards.
I wish to comment on some of the issues raised by the hon. Member for Blackpool South. On apprentices and education, he will know that, as part of the reforms we have introduced, apprentices have not only to do the full-time, on-the-job training that is their apprenticeship, but to spend a significant amount of time at an educational institution, whether a private provider or an FE college. That offers them the education they need while they are earning.
Apprentices are able to give feedback to the employer and the provider. At the beginning of the apprenticeship, all parties have to sign a commitment setting out the roles and responsibilities, which include the giving and receiving of feedback. The apprentice is also able to give feedback during the review of the standard and assessment plans, and we can include that in terms of the guidance note from the Secretary of State.
Gordon Marsden
That is very encouraging. I know that that feedback process takes place; as I say, it has been welcomed by the various groups. I do not want to make things over-bureaucratic, but is there going to be a formal, or at least easily understandable, mechanism whereby apprentices can feed in—either as a group or as individuals?
Gordon Marsden
I am sorry, Ms Dorries. If the Minister is not in a position to say anything more on that today, I would welcome a note to the Committee at some point.
Robert Halfon
I will provide one, but I am always against very formulaic structures; things need to be flexible. The fact is that we give the opportunity for the apprentice to feed back at every step of the way, and the agreement has to be signed by the employer and the apprentice when the latter starts.
On the representation of small businesses, the hon. Gentleman will know that the trailblazer groups—there are roughly 10 employer organisations altogether—have to have a minimum of two businesses with fewer than 50 employers. We envisage that the employer panels will be the same. I am happy to reflect on that being included in the remit letter for the institute. We are also investing taxpayers’ money in huge incentives to encourage small businesses to hire apprentices and to encourage providers to take people on. We are doing everything possible to use taxpayer investment to ensure that small businesses hire apprentices and that providers do provide.
I would like as much as possible to be done by FE colleges, and I would be delighted if they took on more apprenticeship training. That is happening slowly, but I think they would be very willing. I have seen it happening in my own constituency of Harlow: whenever there is an issue to do with a company wanting an apprentice, Harlow College will be there, ready to advise the employer on what should be done and to offer training if it is required.
On the wider issue of the technical routes, I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. I shall set out the context of the problems we face. I have been quite open in admitting that we have a huge skills deficit in this country. The OECD said in 2012 that 20% of young people lacked basic skills. By 2020, the UK is set to be 28th out of 33 OECD countries for intermediate and technical skills. We are way behind.
The whole purpose of the reforms and the legislation—this is why Lord Sainsbury has supported them—is to ensure that we have state-of-the-art technical education for young people that transforms our skills deficit. People who do not want to do one of those 15 state-of-the-art routes, for technical and professional education, will have different options through other applied general qualifications and the academic route. The reforms focus on occupations that require the acquisition of a substantial body of technical knowledge and a set of practical skills that are valued by industry and that address employers’ needs and our huge skills deficit. I am glad that the hon. Member for Blackpool South quoted the Centre for Vocational Education Research, which my Whip guarantees is a blue-chip organisation.
Robert Halfon
Indeed. The centre says:
“We welcome the Report…led by Lord Sainsbury…the subsequent Post-16 Skills Plan”—
by the Government—
“and the measures contained in this Bill. The recommendations are consistent with our findings”.
It continues, and this is the whole point of the argument:
“Part of the problem is undoubtedly the confusing array of options, with uncertain pathways, that are on offer for young people after age 16. There must be a system that students, teachers, parents and employers…understand. Otherwise it is difficult for young people to be matched up with courses that are suitable for them and for employers to understand what qualifications actually mean.”
Gordon Marsden
I understand the Minister’s points, and I tried to make it clear that I am not asking for a huge response—we do not want to end up like the wax in a lava lamp, which starts off as a great base and goes up to the top before, after some time, becoming big again. I understand the need not to have duplication, but the AELP and others made a particular point about the service sector. Is the Minister not concerned that, if the Government are not careful, they will be, by excluding a large part of the service sector, in danger of sending out a binary message that certain sorts of occupations are valued and others are not?
Robert Halfon
No, because this is about technical and professional education. There are 15 routes, and people have many other ways of doing the vital training for the other areas that the hon. Gentleman mentions. People can do an individual apprenticeship, they can do part of the Government’s training scheme or they can do work experience. This is about addressing our skills deficit and, similar to what happens in other countries, ensuring that we have the technical education that our country needs.
On capacity, the institute will ensure that arrangements are in place for evaluating assessments. There are different options for employers and others to develop the standards. We will discuss the assessments later, but I will set out the current figures on apprenticeship assessment. On standards, some 61% of all apprentice starts have an end-point assessment organisation available to them, whether or not they are close to needing an end-point assessment. That figure rises to 94% for all apprentice starts, including those who are expected to reach the gateway—the end of their apprenticeship—within the next 12 months, where an organisation is close to being put on the register. We are considering a number of options and we will discuss them later, but the situation is not as bleak as has been said in respect of the assessment organisations and what is being planned and done.
The hon. Gentleman addressed the levy and the autumn statement, and I am pleased to say that we will still have £2.5 billion available for the levy, regardless of the announcements in the autumn statement. The Government are determined to create an apprenticeship nation, and by 2020 the spending will have doubled to £2.5 billion. We have discussed the providers, but I am happy to reflect on action that could be taken to ensure that SMEs are offering training that is relevant to their apprentices. I am pleased by the response from the providers so far.
The amendment raises other issues of concern. We need to learn from previous models, but there is a risk that requiring specific representation on the panels may not always be appropriate and may result in standards that do not have labour market currency. The purpose of the reform is quality, not quantity. If the panels try to do too much to please too many different groups, ultimately they might not support young people and adults in getting high-quality technical education to progress into skilled employment. The problem is that there is a proliferation of qualifications.
I agree that the groups should be as representative as possible, however. The Sainsbury report makes it clear that the institute will be best placed to ensure that the right people are brought together to develop the standards. Institute staff with expertise in specific occupational areas will know which employers and other stakeholders are suitable to develop standards that are representative of the occupations within the specific routes. The institute is independent. It should be for the institute to manage the composition of groups, and we should not constrain that process.
As for the approval of the groups that are not convened, it is for the groups to come together to put proposals to the institute. That has been the hallmark of the employer-led reforms, which, again, have been based on best practice in other countries. The groups should be flexible enough to reflect the requirements of specific occupations. In some occupations, such as blacksmithing, there are few large employers, while there may be other occupations in which there are no smaller employers or in which there is a bias towards a particular gender. On that point, I remind the Committee that 53% of apprentices are women, which shows that we are making significant progress, although of course we need to do a lot more to get women into STEM—science, technology, engineering and maths—and other key areas.
There are other ways in which views can be taken into account through the institute’s wider structure. Crucially, each route will have its own panel making decisions about the provision within that route. Standards will also be subject to peer review, the purpose of which is to ensure that the proposals meet wider needs. The institute’s board is open to applicants with a wide variety of interests. We hope to announce the composition of the board—genuinely—in the very near future. I firmly believe that once that announcement has been made, the hon. Member for Blackpool South will agree that there is important representation.
Kelvin Hopkins
Does the Minister agree that it is important to appoint the right person as chair of the board of the institute? We have had big, forceful characters in the field of public education, and sometimes they get it right and sometimes they get it wrong, but choosing the right person with the right skills and the right character to lead is crucial.
Robert Halfon
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The board and the chairman are both incredibly important. The person has to have incredible knowledge of the field, as well as the charisma, connections and ability to drive the institute forward so that it can transform technical education in the way that we hope it will.
The Secretary of State will provide advice to the institute once a year on how it should carry out its functions, and the institute will have to have regard to that advice. As I have often mentioned, we will consult on the draft of the first guidance letter and provide advice on who the group of persons should be. We plan to encourage the institute to ensure that others with relevant knowledge and experience are included, as well as employers, professional bodies, sector experts, providers and assessment organisations—the more FE representation the better. The institute will need to explain in its annual report how it has taken that advice into account or, if it has not done so, explain why. I hope that that provides reassurance.
On amendment 13, the decisions to convene the panels will be driven by a robust evidence base. If the evidence shows that there is a need for a standard to be developed, the institute will be able to convene a group of persons if the trailblazer group has not already come forward. The need for the standard to be developed will be driven by the relevant occupational map. There will be an occupational map for each category of occupations or route. The maps will be underpinned by analysis of the labour market information and will illustrate how occupations are grouped together according to their shared requirements for skills and knowledge. The occupational maps will therefore provide the evidence base for all the provision within the route.
Robert Halfon
Absolutely. They will be available on the institute’s website. The institute will publish information so that employers and others know what is required to gain approval to become a trailblazer group. Amendment 13 is therefore unnecessary, because the need for a standard in the absence of a trailblazer group should be the only trigger for the institute to convene a panel. Where the institute convenes a group to develop a standard, its approval of that group is implicit.
In light of that information, I hope that hon. Members agree with this approach. Designing the system around clearly identifiable occupations, and bringing together employers and others to identify the skills, knowledge and behaviours needed for those occupations, will ensure the new system genuinely meets the needs of employers and technical education. I hope the hon. Member will feel reassured enough to withdraw the amendment.
Gordon Marsden
I am very grateful to the Minister for going into detail and for the thoughtful and measured way in which he responded on the three amendments. It is a very techie but extraordinarily important area to get right. The intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North about the chair was particularly apt in that respect, and I am glad the Minister recognises those points.
I am interested to hear the Minister say that £2.5 billion will still be made available for England. Presumably, that means there will be less available for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. If I am wrong on that matter, I ask him please to come back to me. It was quite clear in the autumn statement that the figure was £2.8 billion, so I just assumed that it would go down to £2.3 billion. If the Minister assures me that it is £2.5 billion, that is obviously good news for England.
We share a view on the direction of travel with the routes, but I am not as sanguine about what the Minister said about the technical side. We will reflect on that. I am pleased that he has given more detail on the occupational standards and that he has addressed the SME and gender issues. Again, we may have a further discussion at some point about the mechanisms in that respect. On the whole, he has given a positive and reasonable response. We can always come back to these issues on Report, if necessary. On that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Gordon Marsden
I beg to move amendment 14, in schedule 1, page 24, line 6, leave out “as it considers appropriate”.
This amendment would require the Institute to publish apprenticeship assessment plans for all standards.
The Minister may want to say the same sorts of things on amendment 14 as he touched on under amendment 13. Nevertheless, I rise to move the amendment because it would require the institute to publish apprenticeship assessment plans for all standards. I hear what the Minister says about numbers and everything else. I shall reflect on that and drill down into the detail. However, recent analysis shows—this, of course, is real-time experience—that there are no approved awarding organisations for over 40% of learner starts on the new apprentice standards. Number crunching on the Government data that were published in October suggests that that applied to 1,790 or 42% of the total number of starts so far on the employer-developed programmes.
I accept, as I am sure will the Minister—it must make him tear his hair out at times—that because moving from frameworks to standards is an iterative process, there will be complications. There will be stats that do not appear to fit, and all the rest of it. I am not criticising the fact that there will be an element of confusion. However, those apprentices on the standards will have to pass end-point assessments for the first time, so those assessments have to be carried out by organisations that have been cleared for the task by Government or the Skills Funding Agency-registered apprentice assessment organisations.
I come back to my opening remarks on the previous group of amendments about the degree of uncertainty that still exists about how this will settle down in terms of what the institute does as opposed to other well established bodies such as Ofqual. Because of that, it is important that we have transparency on who is being cleared and who is doing the clearing.
The Minister may be familiar with the observations of Dr Susan Pember, who stood down as the civil service head of further education and skills investment in February 2013. I am very familiar with Dr Pember. On one famous occasion, when we had challenged the Government on various things, she said that we had been challenging them too much. The Minster’s predecessor, the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes), said that we were absolutely right and that that was the role of the Opposition. Dr Pember has said:
“It is diabolical to let an apprentice start a programme without explaining not only what the end test will contain, but where it will be, what shape it will take and who will be the organisation—
that is the key point—
“to oversee and manage the process.”
We are told that the Department for Education—the Minister can contradict this if he wishes and it would be very pleasant were he able to do so accurately—is still struggling to recruit enough of those assessment organisations. Indeed, one of its spokespersons said:
“We know there is more work to be done to ensure we have the range and breadth of high quality assessment organisations we need.”
We are also concerned that the slowness with which this process has been taken forward has meant that students have not started on some apprenticeship standards for two years after they were launched. I appreciate that this refers to matters that took place not on the Minister’s watch, but it will colour and inform what people think about what the new institute does and what guidance the new institute is given in this respect by Ministers. The backstory, as it were, is an important one.
FE Week has looked at the latest Skills Funding Agency data, specifically the first standards that were given Government sign-off in 2014. It found that there were no starts at all in that academic year, or in 2015, while low numbers of students were recorded in several others. There may be an element here of what I described in a previous sitting as the very slow process of taking these trailblazers though. On that occasion, I alluded to the issues raised by the Transport Committee about the time it had taken to passport various standards that were developed in the maritime sector into the required frameworks for the SFA.
The National Skills Academy for Food & Drink took a lead role in developing one of the apprenticeships that ended up having no learners for food and drink maintenance engineers. Its chief executive frankly blamed the Government. She said that employers involved with the trailblazer group led by the NSAFD, which developed the standard, had been
“frustrated by the evolutionary nature of the government’s decision making process for approval. We were advised at the start that this new and innovative approach was called ‘open policy-making’… Unfortunately policy implementation does not lend itself well to this approach and valuable employer time and effort has been spent unpicking decisions made as policy decisions have firmed up. This has led to redrafting, reworking and lost time, such that the industry has written to the new skills minister, requesting that the Department for Education implements a far more structured and clear process for the future.”
That refers to things that have happened historically in the last couple of years, but the Minister will understand why, on the basis of that, we are keen to make sure that the institute publishes all of its apprenticeship assessment plans for such standards in a timely fashion. Will the Minister, if he is able to, tell us what is the status of his response to the NSAFD on that issue? Its chief executive, Justine Fosh, said that the standard had not been ready for apprenticeship starts until the beginning of this academic year, but that
“at least 60 students I know of”
have started since September.
That is only one example, but as this process strengthens and multiplies, as it needs to do to meet all the Government targets, the Government will have to pay close attention to this issue of capacity and this iterative process, otherwise they will find themselves in a logjam of standards approvals as early as the middle of next year. That is the point at which any Government of any political persuasion, when they have the Opposition or other stakeholders bearing down on them, might be tempted to cut corners. We do not want to see corners cut, but we, like the stakeholders, want to see what progress is taking place in real time. That is why we have put amendment 14 before the Committee today.
Robert Halfon
The hon. Gentleman said that there was a slow process in taking the trailblazers through. We have committed to carrying out all Government checks and approval processes within six weeks. The average development time is one year. The policy has changed over time and the employer groups have had to make amendments at times.
Under previous amendments, I set out the position on the 61% of all apprentice starting standards. That rises to 94% of apprentice starts, including those that are expected to reach their gateway. We have had some difficulties relating to low volume apprenticeship standards and we are considering recommending a targeted procurement organisation for a bundle of these standards. We are doing everything possible to make sure that the proper assessment organisation is in place.
The amendment recommends that all published standards must be accompanied by an assessment plan. The legislation already allows for the institute to publish assessment plans for standards as it considers appropriate. The flexibility on this is intentional. Our objective is that the Institute for Apprenticeships will assume responsibility for college-based technical education. At that point, standards will apply to both apprenticeships and the college-based routes, but assessment plans will still only apply to apprenticeships. College-based technical education will be tested in a different way because it is taught in a different way, even though it may be testing similar outcomes. It will be up to the panels to decide how each college-based course should be tested, but the proposals have to be scrutinised and approved by the institute. There will be some standards that are not appropriate for apprenticeships and that will be used only for the college-based routes; it is therefore unnecessary to develop and publish a plan for those standards. I hope the hon. Gentleman is reassured enough to withdraw the amendment.
Gordon Marsden
I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation and for his candour in admitting that there is still some way to go on the issue of capacity. I welcome what he said about procurement organisation. I am prepared to withdraw the amendment, although I would like to reflect on the Minister’s point about college-based technical education being best tested in a different way. A different way may be appropriate, but one would not want it to be seen as different in terms of quality. Is he able to say today—if not, perhaps he can write a note—whether more details of how that process will operate will be published? I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Gordon Marsden
I beg to move amendment 15, in schedule 1, page 24, line 20, at end insert
“and must include the following representatives—
(a) a number of employers which, taken together, comprise a broad range of employer within the given occupation;
(b) at least one relevant trade union official;
(c) at least one person engaged in delivering relevant education at the level of the standard being assessed; and
(d) at least one person who can represent or promote the interests of students.”
This amendment would ensure that groups developing apprenticeship assessment plans include adequate representation of all relevant stakeholders.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 16, in schedule 1, page 24, line 37, at end insert—
(c) information about matters that it takes into account when deciding whether or not to convene a group of persons to prepare an apprenticeship assessment plan for the purposes of subsection (9)”
This amendment ensures the Institute must publish information about its reasons for convening, or choosing not to convene, a group of persons to prepare an apprenticeship assessment plan in respect of a standard.
Gordon Marsden
The amendments take us back to the heart of the principle that we think should be guiding the establishment of this institute. There is no broad difference between the intentions of the Minister and indeed the Government about the need to involve a broad range of stakeholders. The issue is perhaps—though I hope not—how we create mechanisms that effectively deliver that process. The Minister and you, Ms Dorries, will be familiar with the proverb, “If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.” I am not suggesting that the Government want to put in place a beggarly structure for the institute, although some of the issues around capacity still need to be resolved. It is fundamental to make sure that groups developing apprenticeship assessments have adequate representatives of all relevant stakeholders. I do not think we can simply do that by saying, “We can leave it up to the individual groups.”
I have served on enough Committees in this House to know the danger of prescribing particular quotas for people from certain areas. I am not going to take us too far down memory lane, but in the early 2000s, when the then Government were developing policies on further education, we had lively debates on some of the new structures and whether, for example, there should be a trade union person on every area council. I am acutely conscious of the dangers of tokenism in quotas.
Kelvin Hopkins
I understand the point my hon. Friend is making, but surely the sensible way forward is to have broad guidance, either in the Bill or in subsequent secondary legislation.
Gordon Marsden
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. He has huge experience in this area and in the structures that have come and gone. It is about getting the balance right. I come back to something I said on Second Reading: when one is establishing new institutions, it is important not just to set frameworks and assessments but to set the tone. It is the tone that will determine whether the Government, or in this instance the institute, get the buy-in and involvement that will make that institute a success.
When we discussed the issue of capacity, the Minister was absolutely right to say, “Well, it’s not simply a question of who’s on the board. It’s all the various other groups of people who are involved on the various sub-groups, and all the rest of it.” However, the buy-in will depend upon those groups feeling that it is made very clear in the Bill that there is a place for them. As I say, it does not have to be a sort of automatic quota-type thing, but it has to reflect something solid and positive.
We had a relatively lengthy discussion of this principle under the Higher Education and Research Bill, in relation to the office for students and who in that new office should be involved from the student body. The thing that got the headlines was about putting students on the office for students board, but the amendments that were tabled during discussion of that Bill referred to other bodies as well, such as the assessment groups.
That discussion is relevant to the present one because the issues are broadly similar, with the exception that in the higher education world the principles and the organisations that allow involvement by other stakeholders have been far more developed than they have been in the technical education world. Therefore, we think it is very important that matters such as the contribution of other stakeholders to the assessment process, as well as trade unions, colleges and providers, should be put in the Bill. In the Higher Education and Research Bill Committee, the Minister’s colleague said, “Well, yes, it’s really important that all these things happen,” but they had to happen miraculously, without being put in that Bill. The Committee divided and the Government had their way, but I am glad to say that the Universities Minister went away, reflected, and tabled an amendment on Report which, although it did not give us everything that we and other stakeholders might have wanted, established the broad principle that students should be involved on the board.
I ask the Minister today to think carefully about this issue in the context of other advice that he might have received from elsewhere. I also say to him that it is much better at this stage to send that signal to stakeholders, some of whom are already concerned about whether they are part of this great step forward, than it is to shelter behind the idea of, “Well, we don’t want quotas, so we don’t want to have at least one person who comes from a broad range of employers in a given occupation, or at least one relevant person from the trade unions, or at least one person who can represent or promote the interests of students.”
Getting the tone right at the beginning is absolutely crucial to get the buy-in that everyone who wants this institute to be a success needs. If the institute is going to be accretive in its first year, when it will deal principally with apprenticeships, and in the second year it will take on the elements for technical education, then the Government have time to put the practical implications of this amendment into practice. There does not have to be a big bang, and then officials will say, “Well, how do we identify these people? How do we do it?” That is the point of amendment 15.
As with amendments 16 and 14, we still regard it as imperative to see who is assembled to prepare an apprenticeship assessment plan. It is also valuable to be able to experience that process in real time and to see what it takes to introduce and check assessment plans. Those are the principles underlying an addition to the Bill that is modest, but extremely important in setting the tone and sending the message about all the good and generous things that the Minister talked about only a few minutes ago such as inclusion and ensuring that all talents are taken on board. If faces are set against the measure, there will be much disappointment among stakeholders.
We and the Government want the institute to start off with that broad co-operation—not co-operation through gritted teeth, with people saying, “This is what you’re doing as a Government, so we’d better knuckle down and get on with it.” We want people to say, “Yes, they’ve got it right. We want them to go forward with this.” Amendment 15, which is a modest proposal, would be a great benefit in that respect. That is why we are moving these amendments.
Kelvin Hopkins
I will speak briefly in support of my hon. Friend. The reality is that those who have become chief executives and chairs of organisations—those with leading roles—are frequently strong characters who want their own way. Some will not want to include in their organisations and structures people who are likely to challenge them. I have seen at least one notorious leader—he has now left, I am pleased to say—who wanted his own way. He would have liked acquiescent, docile and amenable people in his organisation, not people who put alternative points of view, which is actually often a healthy thing. In this place, we want people to put forward alternative points of view and have a range of opinions, even within parties, so that we get things right. We can make mistakes if we allow a wilful leader to have their own way without ever being questioned, let alone challenged.
My hon. Friend is right. We do not want to cause problems within these bodies, but it is important that a range of insights into what is being done is represented within them. I have concerns about giving too much power and freedom to wilful individuals who may not wish to be constrained by having, for example, a trade unionist on the board. Indeed, there are those who will not want a trade unionist on a body, whether that body is a board or a committee deciding on apprenticeships. I strongly support my hon. Friend and hope that the Minister can be persuaded.
Robert Halfon
This discussion is incredibly important. I understand that the hon. Members for Blackpool South and for Wythenshawe and Sale East who tabled the amendments want a quality, fair, open and genuinely representative institute at all levels. For me, this is not an argument about quotas. There are three issues: that the institute gives us high-quality technical education that meets our skills deficit; that the institute is independent, but employer-led because, as the Sainsbury report argued, that is how we will achieve that goal; and the question of the best way to achieve representation.
I welcome the intention behind amendment 15, which is to ensure that the groups who develop assessment plans are representative of the sector and others with an interest in ensuring high-quality assessment that really tests the achievement of the standard. That is what we want to do. The experience of the past few years from running our own trailblazer process is that the vast majority of groups that have come together to develop the standards and plans have been representative of the sector. Like the hon. Member for Luton North, I am not opposed to trade unions. I am a union member and very strongly support Unionlearn, which the hon. Member for Blackpool South mentioned. I hope very much that the trade unions will be involved in some way or another.
Kelvin Hopkins
I know very well the Minister’s record and admire the fact that he is a trade unionist, but not all politicians in this place are quite so at ease with trade unionism. Indeed, in the world outside not all are as admirable as the Minister in his support of trade unions.
Robert Halfon
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comment but I think the issue is about how to create that representation. That will be the point of discussion between us.
In the institute, we have designed an organisation that will be able to carry out apprenticeship functions independent of Government, so that the decisions have credibility with employers. The Enterprise Act 2016 gave it autonomy in determining who should be approved to develop each standard and related assessment plan. The idea was to ensure that it had the flexibility to respond differently to different sectors and ensure that the groups are representative. Although it is right that the institute is independent and can make its own choices about how it operates, it is incredibly important that the Secretary of State is still able to give it guidance through a written statutory notice. The institute must have regard to the statutory notice and must justify its actions if it chooses to disregard the advice.
We will shortly consult on the draft of that guidance and that will provide advice on who the group of persons should be. I very much want to encourage the institute to ensure that others, beyond employers, with relevant knowledge and experience are included. As I said in the previous debate, that would be professional bodies, other sector experts, FE providers, other providers and assessment organisations. I strongly encourage hon. Members of all parties to engage in the consultation and give their views.
On amendment 16, I appreciate the interest in ensuring that the institute must be transparent in why it convenes groups and develops an assessment plan. It is essential that we avoid the proliferation of new standards and assessment plans, learning from the experience of previous apprenticeship frameworks. The whole purpose of the reforms is to ensure quality over quantity.
I am sure that hon. Members are aware that in formal technical education, standards form the basis of both apprenticeships and college-based technical education courses. With reference to the previous debate, the quality will the same whether it is the assessment of an apprenticeship or classroom-based education. It just reflects the nature of the different delivery between apprenticeships and college-based courses. Quality is everything; it is the whole purpose of the reforms.
In addition to employer demand, the need for the standard will be informed by the occupational maps. There will be an occupational map for each category, and the maps will be underpinned by labour market information. That is the best way to provide an evidence-based road map for all the provision within each route. The institute must ensure that standards exist for all skilled occupations that need them. Where an approved group of employers and other persons is not available, the institute will be able to convene a group to develop a standard and an assessment plan where necessary, but the occupational map must be the primary factor for determining whether a group of employers is convened. The occupational maps, as well as the approved standards, will be available on the website. The institute can convene a group to develop a standard only if one has not come forward organically, motivated by employer demand. The only other criterion that the institute will use to convene a panel itself is the occupational map, which is publicly available. Therefore, the information that the amendment requests is unnecessary.
The amendment could also have the effect of requiring the institute to publish its set of criteria for who should form the group of persons who will develop the assessment plan. As I said response to amendment 15, it is up to the institute as an independent organisation to decide the detail of how it carries out its functions, but I will reflect seriously on what has been said. I believe in strong representation in all parts of the institute, and we can suggest that it be part of the Secretary of State’s guidance to the institute. For that reason, I hope that hon. Members will feel reassured enough to withdraw the amendment.
Gordon Marsden
The Minister, with thoughtfulness and detail, has taken much the same view on amendment 16 as he took on amendment 15, and I will do the same. I heard what he had to say. It is one of those issues on which we agree to disagree, but as he said, we will have the opportunity to pursue it when the guidance is issued. On that basis, I am content to withdraw amendment 16.
On amendment 15, I have listened carefully to the Minister’s measured and thoughtful response. We are not disputing that the process must be employer-led. That is why we particularly say in the amendment
“a number of employers which, taken together, comprise a broad range of employer within the given occupation”.
That is the issue: there must be somebody in that group who knows their stuff.
This might be a fundamental philosophical difference between us. I find it odd that the Government should so set their face against putting in the Bill the principle that there should be a trade union representative, or indeed someone who could represent the interests of students or apprentices. I was tempted on that basis to press the amendment to a vote, but I will not. I have heard what the Minister said. We will wait to see the guidance, and we will want to contribute to it. As I said, we can always return to the matter on Report. With some reluctance, but recognising his bona fides in the matter, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Gordon Marsden
I beg to move amendment 29, in schedule 1, page 25, line 17, at end insert—
‘(5) Regulations under subsection (4) shall be laid before Parliament and shall be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.”
Heaven forfend that I should criticise groupings, but what I have to say to amendment 29 is probably very similar to what I will say to amendments 31 and 33. It is an important principle when setting up a new organisation that, at least during the first year or couple of years, it should make the process of regulation as transparent and open as possible. I say this with no disparagement or criticism of the Minister and the current Administration, but Governments of all descriptions have an enormous tendency not to do so when they set up new things.
To return to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North about the need to have people testing and refining the arguments, it is easy to say, “Let’s have it done according to the negative procedure. After all, this legislation is only delegated and passported in, mainly from the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009.” Before anybody says, “That was done under a Labour Government,” I will say yes, it was done under a Labour Government, and when I sat on Committees under that Labour Government, I regularly criticised the Government’s use of the negative procedure, especially when we set up new institutions. Famously, I and colleagues demanded that the Labour Government did not use that procedure for the casino in Blackpool, and we had to have a full hour and a half of debate on the Floor of the House. I think that, in those circumstances, I did my duty to both my constituency and parliamentary transparency. That is the principle behind why we are saying in amendments 29, 31 and 33 that regulation should be subject to the affirmative procedure.
The affirmative procedure, as you well know, Ms Dorries, is not the most onerous of burdens on Ministers and civil servants. It merely guarantees that there will be often quite limited discussion among a group like this one in a Committee Room. As the Minister will recognise, in those proceedings, even if the measures are not pushed to a vote, sometimes things are said and done that cause Ministers to reflect, to go away and to improve legislation, and, in this case, to improve the directions. The other point to be made—
The Chair
Mr Marsden, I did not want to disturb you in full flow, but it has just been pointed out to me that the grouping of these amendments is provisional. Would it be convenient for you, while you are in full flow, to speak also to amendments 31 and 33 to save time later? Then I will not call them.
Gordon Marsden
Absolutely. Ms Dorries, you make the point that all three amendments are designed to respond to that proposal. Having sweated blood over getting it, I want to refer to the famous policy statement for clause 1. From page 5, that gives the justifications for the Government’s proposals to treat these three areas according to the negative procedure. I am looking carefully at what is said about section A2B on page 7, section A3A on page 8 and paragraph 33 on page 8; those three sections relate to the three amendments we have tabled to change to the affirmative procedure.
In the commentary on paragraph 33, the policy statement says:
“Justification for procedure: this is essentially an administrative transitional provision to allow for the work…to continue by the Institute.”
On section A3A, it says:
“This is consistent with the existing power in relation to apprenticeships…and for which regulations have already been made and laid using the negative procedure”.
On section A2B, which relates to the first of our amendments, it also says:
“It is considered that a regulation making power subject to Parliamentary scrutiny is appropriate and provides flexibility…when new functions and procedures are being used for the first time.”
It talks about the amount of the fees chargeable in relation to particular assessments, what an appropriate fee is and all the rest.
Ms Dorries, we would be mad—I certainly would be—to want to have a major debate on, or to put in the Bill, what should or should not be prescribed for fee charges, in terms of the new evaluation of apprenticeship assessments. People would think we were bonkers. However, the principle of how to administer that, and particularly whether there should be charges or not—a live issue at the moment, being represented to us in briefing documents from various sectors—is quite important.
It is important that there is a set formula saying that this will be debated in a Delegated Legislation Committee, on a statutory instrument of some description, on the affirmative principle. Again, that gives support and value, and sends out that signal of inclusion to the stakeholders who will be significantly affected by the results of those affirmative resolutions or the negative procedures. That particularly applies to training organisations, which will be significantly affected and challenged by the changes—at least, that is what they have all said in their representations to us. That is to say not that the changes are bad or wrong, but simply that they are significant enough to be carried out through the affirmative rather than negative procedure.
Robert Halfon
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his scrutiny. I need to explain the context of why we have chosen to go down this route. We have had a lot of discussion about the quality and evaluation of apprenticeship assessments. Ensuring consistency between assessments will mean that an apprentice can be sure that, wherever they obtain their apprenticeship, they are being judged on a fair and equal basis.
Our aim is that the institute should work to ensure that an apprentice in Hull and an engineering apprentice in Blackpool both have consistent and high-quality assessment. The power that allows the institute to charge for its role in reviewing assessments is critical to enabling it to discharge its function of evaluating assessments effectively.
Other organisations approved by the institute to carry out a quality assurance role in relation to apprenticeship assessments, such as professional bodies, are likely to charge. If the institute were unable to charge, there would be an increased incentive for employers to use the institute instead of the other options, and the extra running costs would ultimately fall on the taxpayer. It follows that, like other organisations, the institute should be able to charge for its work and to recover all its costs.
Importantly, the specific fee is likely to be adjusted over time for a range of reasons, such as to reflect any changes in the institute’s approach to carrying out evaluations and as assessments are updated and altered. Additionally, as the Committee will appreciate, the institute is still finalising the operational detail on how it will carry out some of its functions, including the evaluation of assessments, which we have just debated.
The actual amount that the institute will need to charge is not known. It is conceivable, although it has not been decided, that there could be different fees in different cases to take into account the cost of evaluation in different sectors. I reassure the Committee that the policy is that organisations should be able to charge only to cover their costs. We will make that clear to the institute in the guidance letter. Of course, the institute will be able to charge only if authorised to do so, and subject to the restrictions set out in the regulations.
It is likely that the fees would need to be reviewed quite frequently to ensure that they were appropriate, which is why hon. Members will welcome the provision to allow for the introduction of a statutory instrument without requiring Parliament to debate the matter each time a fee changes. The negative procedure ensures that the fee levels can be updated relatively quickly, if necessary, thus protecting the taxpayer from unwanted financial risk. The procedure is consistent with the Secretary of State’s approach to charging fees for certificating framework-based apprenticeships and, more recently, for English apprenticeship certificates—we are doing that in parallel. Even so, as the hon. Member for Blackpool South pointed out, regulations tabled under the negative procedure can still be debated in Parliament. If there were real demand, scrutiny could still be achieved.
Amendment 31 raises the same issue. I agree that any matter left to secondary legislation requires scrutiny, but the negative procedure provides for sufficient parliamentary scrutiny and would enable debate if the secondary legislation was prayed against. In the event that the institute wishes to introduce an application or process, or to update the fee levels, the negative procedure allows for that to be done as quickly as possible, which is consistent with the Secretary of State’s approach to apprenticeships.
As the institute is not yet established, flexibility is needed to prescribe the most appropriate method. We may also wish to seek advice from the institute and others on what those measures should be. I confirm that, at most, the fees should cover all the costs connected with carrying out the function.
I turn to amendment 33. The Secretary of State has powers to make arrangements to develop new technical education provision. The Bill would allow the Secretary of State to transfer those powers to the institute to ensure continuity. I hope it will reassure the hon. Member for Blackpool South and his colleagues if I give a broad overview. We are progressing the arrangements that we are putting in place before the institute takes on its wider responsibility.
The hon. Gentleman will know that creating this new technical education provision is a complex process. Although we are committed to taking through the reforms quickly, and particularly to establishing all 15 technical education routes as soon as possible, we recognise that certain lead-in times are required for reform. The Government plan to phase the reforms in progressively; development will commence before the institute remit is expanded in April 2018.
We have already talked about the occupational maps and the routes to identify occupations. We know that employers will play an especially important role in assessing the standards, including articulating the knowledge, skills and behaviours needed. I assure hon. Members that the negative procedure provides sufficient parliamentary scrutiny. We have thought carefully about the right balance of primary and secondary legislation and about which procedure to use for secondary legislation. We have set out the rationale in the delegated powers memo for the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee in the other place and I look forward to reflecting on that Committee’s response. I hope that the hon. Member for Blackpool South will feel reassured enough to withdraw the amendment.
Gordon Marsden
Again, I am grateful to the Minister for the thoughtful and measured way in which he has put his point of view. I entirely accept everything he has said about the need to move carefully and about the fact that there may be variations in charges and that we may have to return to them frequently.
However, none of that undermines the essential argument that this is a new Bill that is taking on new stuff. We believe—I am afraid that history teaches us lessons in this respect—that it is far safer for the Bill to specify the affirmative procedure than the negative procedure. Although I appreciate the Minister’s remarks, I regret to say that we wish to press the amendment to a vote.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Gordon Marsden
I beg to move amendment 30, page 27, line 3, at end insert—
“A2DD Directions: consultation
Directions given to the Institute by the Secretary of State under this Act shall be subject to—
(a) periodic review, and
(b) consultation by the Institute with—
(i) organisations representing the teaching professions,
(ii) further education bodies and provider organisations,
(iii) employers and employers’ organisations,
(iv) awarding bodies, and
(v) organisations representing students and apprentices.”
Broadly speaking, amendment 30 continues the theme of our other amendments this morning. It is interesting to move the amendment after the Minister’s useful exegesis of the role of the Secretary of State and of the relationship between the Secretary of State and the institute, because it is that relationship that the amendment seeks to probe further. The Government’s policy statement gives those further powers to the Secretary of State, in particular in relation to matters concerning technical education.
Technical and Further Education Bill (Sixth sitting)
Tuesday 29th November 2016
(7 years, 11 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Technical and Further Education Act 2017 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 29 November 2016 - (29 Nov 2016)
The Chair
I remind the Committee that with this we are discussing the following:
Amendment 31, in schedule 1, page 28, line 32, at end insert—
“(3) Regulations under this section shall be laid before Parliament and shall be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.”.
Amendment 33, in schedule 1, page 30, line 17, leave out “negative” and insert “affirmative”.
The Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills (Robert Halfon)
I will pick up on a number of points that have been raised before talking about the main substance of the amendment. A key recommendation of the Sainsbury report, No. 8, stated:
“While it is right for the Institute for Apprenticeships to be delegated wide-ranging autonomy across its operational brief, responsibility for key strategic decisions must be reserved for the Secretary of State. Crucially these decisions include those relating to the shape of the overall national system of technical education”.
The Secretary of State will obviously consult when making her decision, and she needs to ensure that any directions are reasonable and include all relevant factors, which means that the Government consult and listen where appropriate. Under public law duties, a Secretary of State has to act reasonably and fairly.
The hon. Member for Blackpool South mentioned City & Guilds, which stated:
“The City & Guilds Group fully supports the Government’s policy drive to improve the skills of the UK workforce and improve the transition for those entering employment from education and training. We see much merit in the Post-16 Skills Plan, and look forward to continuing to work with the Government and the new IATE to improve the quality and esteem of vocational and technical education in the UK.”
The hon. Gentleman also talked about the timescales. We will publish an implementation plan in due course—a real “due course”—which will set out the timeline for delivering the technical education reform set out in Lord Sainsbury’s independent plan and the Government’s post-16 plan. It will demonstrate firmly how we are to ensure that the institute will be able to deliver its functions according to the plan’s timescales.
As I said all the way through this morning’s sitting, the whole purpose of establishing the Institute for Apprenticeships—now to be the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education—is to give employers a clear and independent voice. I understand that it must be strange at first sight that the Bill gives the Secretary of State powers to issue directions to the institute in respect of its responsibilities for technical education qualifications and the steps towards occupational competence, but the limitation in the amendment is neither necessary nor desirable, and I want to set out why.
I have mentioned Lord Sainsbury, who touched on this again in oral evidence to the Committee. We are including the direction provision in the Bill because it ensures that although the institute has real responsibility for developing and operating the technical education system flexibly, that will be in an overall strategic context guided by the Secretary of State. The Committee might be concerned that we did not include a similar power in respect of apprenticeships and the institute, but the two cases differ substantially. There is a stronger relationship between technical education and the education system as a whole—apprenticeships form part of that—particularly as it relates to young people, than is the case with apprenticeships individually.
To make it clearer, let me describe the circumstances in which we envisage that the direction power may be used. They could include a national requirement for all qualifications taken by 16 to 18-year-old students to include a specific core skill or knowledge. Or they could reflect reforms to other parts of the system, such as a change in the structure of A-levels or in the length of the academic year, which might have a strong impact on the shape of technical education provision. Many issues covered by the directions are likely already to be subject to specific consultation before they are put in place, such as the consultations that take place on A-level subject content. The direction power simply enables the Secretary of State to ensure that her wider policy responsibilities are given effect throughout the system.
Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)
I intervene on the Minister at this point to clarify that the point of the amendment, and the argument I made, was not to question in any way the ability, legality or desirability of the Secretary of State having an ongoing, one-to-one relationship with the institute. The point was that the aggregate of those instructions, if they are not tempered—that is the way I want to look at it—by a periodic review or consultation with the sorts of organisations that we have talked about, could cause not a chasm but a gap between what one set of people know and what another set know. I entirely understand the Minister’s point about making these decisions based on technical things, but that is the purpose of the amendment. The purpose was not to question in any way the desirability of the Secretary of State having that one-to-one relationship.
Robert Halfon
As I mentioned previously, it is highly likely that the Secretary of State, when issuing a strategic direction, will have a full and thorough consultation. We want to make sure that the Government are able to exercise overall strategic control where necessary and without delay.
The amendment relates to additional consultation on, and review of, directions issued to the institute, rather than the principle of the direction-making power itself. We have just agreed that those directions are likely to deal with changes to the education system as a whole, for which consistency of implementation is of primary importance. Consultation and review relating to only part of the system—the institute’s responsibilities for technical education—seems to have little practical value and, we think, might cause considerable delay, which could put coherent and consistent implementation of strategic measures in peril.
There might be other cases in which the Secretary of State would need to intervene quickly, for example before arrangements for particular qualifications are finalised. We therefore believe that the Secretary of State should be able to exercise a direction power of the kind the Sainsbury panel had in mind, without a specific requirement for additional consultation and review, even though it is unlikely that there would be no consultation when that directional power was given. I therefore hope that the hon. Gentleman will agree to withdraw the amendment.
Gordon Marsden
I have heard what the Minister has to say on this matter. Again, I make the point that we are concerned about the aggregate process, and it is that process that prompted this probing amendment. The Minister mentioned the implementation plan, which raises another issue that was brought to us by a number of different people. The Minister and I swapped quotes from City & Guilds, but the original comment I made was what City & Guilds said about the timetable. The implementation plan, which he says will give the timeline in due course, is welcome, and may well allay some of the concerns that others have had and which we have tried to reflect in the amendment. If that is the case—in due course—we will be satisfied. I therefore beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Gordon Marsden
Ms Dorries, we do not intend to move either amendment 31 or amendment 33. We have established the principle with the first vote, and I do not see the need to detain the Committee any longer on that.
Gordon Marsden
I beg to move amendment 17, in schedule 1, page 29, line 34, at end insert—
“(1A) In paragraph 2(1) of (membership of the Institute), after subparagraph (c) insert—
“(d) but at least one of the members appointed under paragraph 2(1)(c) must have recent experience of undertaking an apprenticeship, or of representing or promoting the interests of apprentices; and
(e) at least one of the members appointed under paragraph 2(1)(c) must have recent experience of undertaking a technical and further education course, or of representing or promoting the interests of students undertaking a technical and further education course.””.
This amendment would ensure that apprentices and learners are represented on the board of the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 32, in schedule 1, page 29, line 34, at end add—
“(1A) In paragraph 2, after subsection (2) insert—
“(3) The appointment of the Chair and Chief Executive shall be subject to a confirmation hearing by the appropriate select committee or committees of the House of Commons.””.
Gordon Marsden
We now come to what is essentially the last of the amendments to schedule 1 that we will pursue. It has been designed to broaden both the prospective and the actual membership of the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education. Although we have dealt in earlier amendments with how apprentices, and indeed students, get represented, amendment 17 is the most specific.
The Minister will understand that we wish to insert sub-paragraphs (d) and (e) precisely to reflect what he and I have been talking about, which is that the situation of people undertaking FE and technical courses can be somewhat different in outcome and process from that of apprentices. It is important to make that distinction. There is a certain element of déjà vu here, because we discussed the same issue at the start of the year. I will not repeat the whole saga, but before the Government drafted the provision this was very similar wording to that in our model for the new institute. As my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) noted during the passage of the Enterprise Bill 2016, on which he led for the Opposition in Committee, the Institute for Apprenticeships did not—and for that matter does not—have any clear mechanisms for ensuring that apprentices and learners are able to contribute their experiences via the board, or the institute, to inform the work of their new regulator.
In this morning’s sitting the Minister and I discussed the nature of feedback, and it seemed that he thought it was more rigorous than I did, but we will let that pass. However, this is a question not so much of feedback—which is important—as of sending out a sign that there is proper representation. The institute must be broadly based. It cannot simply be employer-led, however important that may be; it should be guided and structured by them, and we will see in due course what the appointments to the board reflect. The idea that there is a board with no apprentice presence on it is as daft as it would have been in the Higher Education and Research Bill to have the office for students without a student representative. In one way, although we can gloss it, it is as simple as that.
From what Peter Lauener said in his oral evidence, and indeed from what the Minister himself has said, appointments to the institute’s board may or may not be imminent, happening in due course, at hand or whatever phraseology we want to use, but I do not think that I can overemphasise how essential it is for it to have wide-ranging representation, to include all the key components of apprenticeship creation and delivery.
I have referred, in relation to previous amendments, to the active participation of various groups of apprentices and their willingness to take up the challenge. These include the National Union of Students, with its own National Society of Apprentices, the Industry Apprentice Council, from whose excellent survey I quoted last week, and other groups such as that of Lindsay McCurdy. After all, in National Apprenticeship Week every year—an offshoot, of course, of the creation of the National Apprenticeship Service under the previous Labour Government—we all go around, as Members of Parliament, shaking hands, having photographs taken and saying how marvellous it is to hear apprentices’ life stories and initiatives. Next year the board will be established and the institute will take a legal rather than shadow form. It would seem odd then to go out and talk to apprentices and students at FE and technical colleges and have them say, “It’s nice that you have come to see us, hear my life story and take my photograph, but why have we got no representation on the board of the institute?” Perhaps the Minister would like to think about that for a moment.
Gordon Marsden
We have a weaker version of that. The Education Committee interviewed the chief inspector-designate of Ofsted and was not satisfied, but the Secretary of State was satisfied and that process went ahead. Amendment 17 is not proposing some form of constitutional innovation; it is something that goes on already.
Sometimes the Minister or the Secretary of State agrees with the view of the Select Committee and sometimes, if the Select Committee has said no, they do not. I do not have a problem with that. In terms of raising the profile of the institute, which is surely what we all want to do in the run-up to its formal launch in the spring, this would be a very useful measure for the Government to agree, which would send out a signal.
As I said, this is a probing amendment. If the Minister were to say, “It is probably more appropriate for just one of them—the chair or the chief executive—to have it,” we would not argue with that. Agreeing to this measure would send out an important signal about how important the Government consider this issue to be. The Select Committees have already shown interest in apprenticeships, technical education legislation and the apprenticeships levy, as the Minister well knows because he has been before them, so I cannot believe that they would not be happy to perform this duty. That is the basis on which we tabled the amendment.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
I support what my hon. Friend says about amendment 17. It is very important to have representation by an apprentice or someone who has recently been an apprentice, so the board gets feedback from someone who has been on the receiving end of the experience, rather than just from people who think they know about it, but may not know it all. An apprentice who has spent considerable time going through the system will have a lot to offer to the board, so that is very important.
It is important to have members of the board who are different from the rest of the board. In the past, having one woman on a board—nowadays, we have many more than that, I am glad to say—made a difference to the nature of the discussions. Having representatives from minority communities on boards makes a difference by broadening the discussions and making them better. Assumptions that might have been made if the board were made up of small “c” conservatives and middle-aged white men in suits—I am one of them—can be challenged. We see too many people like me, and not enough of other people—[Interruption.] I said people like me, not necessarily me personally. It is important to recognise that there are other voices and other views, and the way to get those views represented is to have such people on the boards. Having at least one apprentice on a board is a good idea, although it should be someone who is experienced—someone who is coming to the end of their course or has just completed it, not someone who is at the beginning of their course. I strongly support what my hon. Friend said, and I hope the Government take cognisance of his views.
Turning to amendment 32, I have chaired two confirmation hearings and I sat on a committee interviewing an appointee before they went for their confirmation hearing. I think it is an extremely good exercise that has improved the quality of the appointments in recent years, so I very much welcome it. Occasionally, the people have not been ideal for the job and have chosen to stand down before going right through the process; I think that shows wisdom. Sometimes the Government and Ministers have been reluctant to let go of appointments, but they have now done so, and I think they are pleased with the job that Select Committees have done on confirmation hearings. I really do think that this would be a very good idea.
It is particularly important to have confirmation hearings for the chair, although perhaps the chair should deal with the chief executive. The confirmation hearings I chaired were to do with that role. It might not have been a chair—it might have been a director or something—but we were essentially interviewing for the chair role. It was extremely interesting and very useful, and I think that in each of those hearings we got the right result. I support amendment 32 in principle, even if my hon. Friend does not press it to a vote.
Robert Halfon
Let me begin by saying that if there were more people like the hon. Member for Luton North in education and skills, we would be in a very good place indeed—whatever their age may be.
Kelvin Hopkins
I should correct myself. I said “middle aged”; I think that is rather beyond me. [Laughter.]
Robert Halfon
I thank the hon. Member for Blackpool South for tabling these amendments, particularly amendment 17, which is a very thoughtful amendment. He may be interested to know that even before they were tabled, when we were discussing these matters, I made some of the points that he just made.
Regarding advertising and interviewing for the board members, we have had 281 applications to the board, representing a wide spectrum of apprenticeship experience. I believe that once the board is finalised the hon. Gentleman will be happy with the membership—we have a few rubber stamps to go yet, but I think he will be happy. He will know that the board is responsible for ensuring that the interests of apprentices and students of technical education are well represented.
I have thought about this issue very seriously—long before we discussed it in Committee—but I cannot go so far as to say there should definitely be apprentices on the board. In part that is because board members need to have experience and they carry a great deal of governance responsibility; they also come under press scrutiny, which is not easy. In addition, the board needs to represent the interests of all apprentices of varying levels, ages and sectors, so a single recent apprentice would be unlikely to speak for all apprentices. We do not think that the amendment offers the best way to represent the interests of apprentices and those in technical education.
I think we can square the circle by agreeing that the institute should draw on the experiences of apprentices, so I am pleased to announce that we expect the institute to invite apprentices to establish an apprentice panel, which would report directly to the board. The panel would be made up of apprentices from different occupations and experiences. The panel would decide for itself which issues to focus on, and it will challenge and make recommendations to the board. That squares the difficult circle of wanting experience but also having the vital input from apprentices up and down the country. The Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education will ensure that the first panel is in place before the institute goes live in April 2017. The institute will consider how best to engage with apprentices on an ongoing basis and how best to represent technical education students ahead of it taking on that responsibility in April 2018.
I am also pleased to report that there are plans to recruit three apprentices to work at the institute, which will review that number periodically. While I am in this post, I will certainly look at this issue with an eye to expanding the number of apprentices who work for the new institute.
Regarding amendment 32, I understand that it is looking for scrutiny of these crucial appointments—the hon. Member for Luton North spoke about how important these appointments are. However, given the size and scope of the institute, and even after the addition of the new functions in the Bill, I do not agree that the amendment is necessary. Generally, appointments that are subject to confirmation hearings by Select Committees are to much larger organisations. Furthermore, the appointment of the chair is subject to a code of practice set out by the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments, as the hon. Gentleman no doubt knows, and is already subject to a high degree of scrutiny.
In line with requirements, the Secretary of State has approved the launch of a recruitment campaign for the chair and the public appointment selection panel. The panel is chaired by a public appointments assessor, and as the appointing Minister I am kept informed every step of the way. A shadow chief executive is in post; the recruitment of the permanent chief executive will follow established civil service rules, with fair and open competition. Also, the Enterprise Act 2016 is clear that the chief executive will first be appointed by the Secretary of State in consultation with the chair and thereafter by the institute itself. The chair and chief executive can of course be called on by the relevant Select Committees to give evidence to Parliament and account for their actions
I do not think the amendment is necessary as I believe that the appointments will be subject to appropriate scrutiny, consistent with established public appointment rules. I hope that the Committee agrees on the need for the institute’s leadership to be established without delay, especially given questions posed by the hon. Member for Blackpool South about the institute’s capacity, whether it will be set up in time, and so on. I hope that the Opposition are sufficiently reassured by that information to withdraw the amendment.
Gordon Marsden
I will treat the Minister’s two responses separately. On amendment 32, which deals with the appointment of the chair and chief executive, yes, there is always the argument that because we are speeding towards setting the institute up—I do not criticise that—there is not time for a confirmation process. I hope that I do not misrepresent him, but I think that is the gist of what he said.
All these things are contextualised. I do not want to open old wounds, but the Institute for Apprenticeships has not had a great record with shadow chief executives—not because of their calibre, but simply because of the time for which the first stayed and the fact that the second, Peter Lauener, is doing the job two days a week. To be blunt, that has aroused scepticism—or to put it positively, a wish to be reassured—among stakeholders across the board about whoever the new chief executive is. It seems to me that an appointment hearing would be neither inappropriate nor unreasonable.
The Minister cannot have it both ways. He tried to persuade me the other day that I did not need to worry too much about the institute having only 60 employees because an enormous number of other people were doing things, but if that is the case, it is a rather more significant organisation than the Minister’s bald figures and comments suggest. To be frank, I am not sure that is the strongest of arguments.
Kelvin Hopkins
There is not necessarily a correlation between the importance of an institution and the number of people involved. Some institutions may be quite small but extremely important. As my hon. Friend says, size is not so significant.
Gordon Marsden
My hon. Friend may well be right. Significance is the important thing, and I just think a confirmation hearing would be appropriate for a new organisation such as this. As the Minister said, such a hearing may well take place in some shape or form with a Select Committee anyway, but we will see. We will not press amendment 32 to a vote at this point, but we reserve the right to return to it on Report.
Let me turn to amendment 17. I listened carefully to what the Minister said in addition to his point about the proposed apprentice panel to report directly to the board, and I am bound to say—this is an instant comment, not a considered reflection—that I think that is a positive and enlightened approach. It addresses many of the issues that concern us and I think will concern apprentices, and although the devil is always in the detail, it could be an elegant way of squaring the circle, to use the Minister’s phrase. We will see how things go and wait to see the list of appointments.
Incidentally, our proposed amendments are not comments on individuals. I always take the view that we are making legislation for a generation and we have to make it for all individuals. Having said that, I am particularly encouraged and pleased with the Minister’s response. On that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed, That the schedule be the First schedule to the Bill.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
New clause 3—Report on quality outcomes of completed apprenticeships—
“(1) The Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education shall report on an annual basis to the Secretary of State on quality outcomes of completed apprenticeships.
(2) The report under subsection (1) shall include information on—
(a) job outcomes of individuals who have completed an apprenticeship,
(b) average annualised earnings of individuals one year after completing an apprenticeship,
(c) numbers of individuals who have completed an apprenticeship who progress to higher stages of education,
(d) satisfaction rates of individuals who complete an apprenticeship on the quality of that apprenticeship, and
(e) satisfaction rates of employers who hire individuals who complete an apprenticeship with the outcome of that apprenticeship.
(3) The Secretary of State shall lay a copy of the report before Parliament.”.
This new clause would require the Secretary of State to report to Parliament annually on specified quality outcomes of completed apprenticeships.
New clause 4—Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education: duty to promote awareness—
“(1) It shall be a duty of the Institute to promote awareness of—
(a) occupations, and
(b) steps by which people may become competent to work in occupations.
(2) In promoting awareness under subsection (1)(b), the Institute shall give due weight to—
(a) apprenticeships, and
(b) technical education qualifications.”.
New clause 5—The Institute: duty to consult—
“(1) The Institute shall consult on a regular basis on—
(a) the development and progress of standards and assessment plans, and
(b) the delivery of apprentice end point assessments.
(2) Consultation under subsection (1) shall be carried out with—
(a) further education bodies and provider organisations
(b) awarding bodies
(c) organisations representing employers, and
(d) organisations representing students and apprentices.”.
Ms Brabin, as you tabled a new clause in this group, it would be nice if you were to lead the debate.
Tracy Brabin (Batley and Spen) (Lab)
Thank you, Ms Dorries. I will speak to new clause 4 on careers advice and the duty to promote awareness of occupations.
We all remember the careers advice we received at school. I remember the suggested career given to me very clearly: as a young women with 11 GCSEs and four A-levels, I was advised to become an air hostess, because of my bubbly personality. I did not follow the careers advice that I was given because I had a dream that I was determined to follow: to become an actor. It is not lost on me how enormously lucky I am to have enjoyed the career that I have and therein lies an important point—careers advice has not improved in the way that we wish it had.
Even with the enormous amount of data and emerging opportunities open to us, some young people leave education, ready and able to start on their career paths, with hardly any guidance, never mind a plan to follow. That is why new clause 4 is so important. I was genuinely surprised to learn that its provisions were not already in the Bill. Surely any education Bill should at its very inception promote careers and give guidance on how people can work in occupations? I hope the whole Committee can agree that our young people deserve to be given the time and resources to plan their careers and to have all the information in front of them as they set out gaining qualifications and making educational decisions based on the goals they wish to achieve.
In private meetings, real concerns have been raised with me about the lack of careers provision in our colleges right now. It has been stressed that there is such a lack of advice available at the moment that without explicit legislation on careers guidance, it will be nudged even further towards the back of the priorities queue. With overstretched resources in colleges an ever-growing theme, I was not surprised to hear that at least one institution a receptionist at had been asked to carry out careers guidance, despite having no specialist qualifications or training in how to do that well. Although I was not surprised, I was ashamed that we had allowed our young people to be treated in such a way. I hope Members will join me in seeing the opportunities for the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education to use its national role and unique connection between educators, institutions, learners and businesses to create a leading occupation awareness service.
Just this week, I had the pleasure of presenting an award to a company for its excellent apprenticeship programme. I heard testimony from the apprentices that showed that the employer was a great example of how employers can take the lead in careers advice, but we all know that, sadly, not every apprenticeship provider is the same. The company in question gives its new recruits a few weeks at a time on each aspect of its business, working out where the recruits’ skills lie before setting them on a course to earn qualifications and begin a career in a place where they will flourish.
The time and investment an employer puts into an apprentice differs enormously. Not every employer is as good as the next, so the advice learners get from college is essential, hence the importance of new clause 4. I suggest that, as part of its duty, the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education seeks examples of good practice from employers and promotes them among their connections and levy payers. Careers advice should not be confined to the classroom or to one-on-one meetings, but should be practical and hands-on in the workplace as well.
It is important to mention that I was encouraged during the Committee’s first sitting last week by the warm words from the Minister on careers advice. I appreciate his genuine intentions to improve careers advice, but at a time when the co-Chairs of the Sub-Committee on Education, Skills and the Economy accuse the Government of appearing
“to be burying their heads in the sand while careers guidance fails young people, especially those from disadvantaged backgrounds, and exacerbates the country’s skills gap”,
I do not feel we can rely on warm words alone. We must have provisions in writing—in legislation—because we have an obligation to learners.
If anyone has yet to be convinced that there is a problem, a simple google of the words “careers advice apprenticeships” is illuminating. The first two links are aimed at parents; then there is a link to the Government website that no longer works, a link to a newspaper article lamenting the woeful careers advice for apprenticeships, and a link to careers advice in Nottinghamshire. I am glad that Nottinghamshire seems well cared for, but it is worrying that no obvious official advice is immediately available. While I am sure there is official advice somewhere, should it not be obviously available to the young people who seek it? I hope that the institute becomes the known home for information where anyone who is interested in careers or a new career can access information easily. From where we are now, that would be an obvious and basic improvement.
The Bill is designed to harness the talents of our young people and unlock the potential of the country. Those are worthy aims—we can all agree on that—but I cannot see how we can do that without an explicit commitment to promote awareness of occupations and advise young people on how to get a job in the area they wish. The opportunities that the institute provides are enormous. I hope we seize the opportunity presented in the clause to build a top-quality advice service for apprenticeships and technical educational qualifications.
Gordon Marsden
On a point of order, Ms Dorries. May I clarify that we are having a debate on all three new clauses and schedule 1 stand part, so it would be appropriate for me to speak to all of those?
The Chair
It would now, yes. I called Ms Brabin first because I thought it would be nice, for a change.
Gordon Marsden
Yes, I thought so, too. May I congratulate my hon. Friend—I think it is the first time she has spoken in Committee—on a lively and inspiring presentation? The issue of careers guidance is not new, but I will not go through its whole history. She was right to make those points, and the examples she gave of what appears to be there in principle but is not in practice were all too symptomatic of the difficulties the Government have had until relatively recently—I will be fair—in addressing the problem.
We had a lengthy period under the coalition Government and even at the start of this one where they were running rapidly to catch up with what had become a disastrous position in careers advice and guidance in schools, with work experience no longer required in the curriculum at key stage 4. An array of organisations—everyone from the CBI to the Federation of Small Businesses—complained and continue to complain. When the Government attempted to respond to some of the many cuts that virtually dismantled much careers advice in local authorities and schools—the Connexions programme was maimed beyond repair—to be fair, for post-24s they did do quite a lot in terms of online guidance and so on, but for under-24s they had done precious little, and my hon. Friend’s investigations suggest that even that is not in the best of nick at the moment, if I can put it that way.
We still await a formal strategy from the Government on careers advice and further reports on how the money allocated to the Careers & Enterprise Company will be spent and distributed. To be fair, as I have said previously, the Careers & Enterprise Company is beginning to do some useful work, but it is hampered by the sheer volume of stuff that needs to be done. The Industry Apprentice Council report to which I have referred previously makes that point as well. My hon. Friend the Member for Batley and Spen is right to raise the issue with the Minister in this way and at this time. As I said, I accept the Minister’s bona fides in this area and his wish to do something about it, but we need to see it taken forward.
Kelvin Hopkins
I will not speak for long, but I want to support the three new clauses.
I feel very strongly about new clause 3, because there has been a lot of talk in recent years about apprenticeships that do not really deserve the name—the quality of them was so poor that they were really forms of cheap employment and nothing more. Quality is important. Apprenticeships have to have a high reputation so that when people are offered an apprenticeship, they know that they will get something of real value from the experience. Therefore, reporting back information about apprenticeships—about how individuals are doing and about the quality of apprenticeships—is very important. We have to raise the status of apprenticeships and not allow that to diminish.
On new clause 5, which is about consultation, we want feedback from everyone concerned with apprenticeships to ensure that the institute and, indirectly, the Government have proper information about what is going on on the ground. We want to know what is actually happening and to be able to say that we are making progress and having success.
On new clause 4, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Batley and Spen on her excellent speech; it was first class. Nothing more needs to be said, but I just want to reinforce what she said about the lack of careers advice.
When I was at school, there were two courses: either we were going to stagger on towards university and higher education or we were told, “Go and work in a bank.” That was all that was given. Indeed, an extraordinary number of my school friends ended up working in banks. Whatever their talents, many of them finished in a bank. I had friends who had superb writing skills or were natural cartographers and could have done all sorts of different things, but they finished up working in banks because that is where they were guided to by our school. They were almost dismissed. The school was really interested in those going on to higher education, and so to anyone else it said, “Go and work in a bank.” It really was not good enough. I was one of those who eventually staggered through higher education, otherwise I would have no doubt finished up in a bank—[Laughter.]—not as a senior banker, but just a clerk.
Over the past 10 or 20 years, I have seen a wonderful careers service in my town of Luton, where I knew most of the careers advisers as personal friends, being dissolved. It has been dismantled bit by bit, and the advisers have ended up doing other things. One has become a headteacher of a school, which is fine. She went on to retrain as a teacher after the careers service disappeared. That means young people are not getting the advice they need.
We are talking about apprenticeships and post-16, but lower down, in schools, we want children to be aware of the immense possibilities and tremendous variety of work, so that they can match their skills. If someone can write, they can then get into something that involves writing. If someone is naturally mathematical, they can move into that area. If someone is naturally bent towards engineering and mechanical things, they can be guided into all sorts of interesting jobs. However, if there is no advice, they might finish up doing the wrong thing and spending their lives being a bit frustrated because they really wanted to do something else. That is a very important point.
My two granddaughters are only eight and nine, but they are already talking about what they are going to do when they are adults. They fortunately come from a background where their parents talk incessantly about all sorts of interesting things and what they can do in life, but not everybody has that opportunity. Many children have parents who are not so well informed and cannot give advice, so they depend upon professionals giving advice.
Advice should cover the whole range of abilities, not only highly skilled jobs and professions. There are millions of jobs that are much more basic, but that are equally valuable to society. We depend on everybody and every type of skill, and we should present all our children and young people with a full understanding of the possibilities of life, so that they can not only enjoy life and fulfil themselves, but make the most effective contribution to the economy and to our world. What my hon. Friend the Member for Batley and Spen said was first class, and I hope that the Minister will accept it.
The Chair
Before I call the Minister to respond, I remind Committee members that any decisions on new clauses are taken at the end of the Bill.
Robert Halfon
I will start with new clause 4 and then go on to the other provisions before answering the general queries of the hon. Member for Blackpool South.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Batley and Spen on a really important contribution to the debate; I mean that genuinely. She knows from the brief conversation we had that I completely agree with much of what she says. I agree that we have a problem with careers in our country. I agree that for so long, careers guidance has pushed people towards universities. Having said that, I can imagine a lot of things, but I could never imagine the hon. Member for Luton North as a banker—I have a broad mind, but it is not that broad.
One reason why we have those problems is that wherever I go around the country, whatever institutes I visit and whatever kids I speak to, it is exactly the same: the chances are, they will not have been given advice on apprenticeships or technical education. It is university, university, university. We need to change that. I would be pleased to have the hon. Lady’s input. Careers guidance used to be fragmented and covered by two Departments, but we have moved it wholly to the Department for Education.
When I was appointed Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills, I realised that the title should have been Minister for apprenticeships, skills and careers guidance because careers guidance is perhaps the most important part of everything we are trying to achieve in the Bill. It is the first rung on the ladder of opportunity because without the right careers guidance we will not succeed in what we want to do. That goes back to the arguments of the hon. Member for Luton North on prestige and other things.
The hon. Lady said—this is important—that we need more than just warm words. I accept that and I am looking at the whole issue from the beginning: what we can do in careers guidance, whether it is possible to gear it much more towards skills and starting not in secondary school, but primary school and going all the way through. To be fair, the Government have done substantive work. First, it is now a legislative requirement that schools must give careers advice on apprenticeships. With reference to what the hon. Member for Luton North said, we have also tightened up in legislation the definition of “apprenticeship”.
When I spoke at an hotel recently, I asked someone whether they realised they would be paying the levy and whether they were going to have apprentices. The reply was, “We’ve already got some in the kitchen.” When I said, “You already have apprentices?” they replied, “No, they are interns, or whatever.” We have changed the definition to make sure that an apprenticeship is what it says on the tin.
We have also created the Careers & Enterprise Company, to which the hon. Member for Luton North kindly referred, and again I have been around the country to see it working in practice. I have been to east London and the north-east. Of course there is much more to do. Some £90 million, which is a serious amount of money and not just warm words, is being invested over the Parliament not just in the Careers & Enterprise Company, but in careers generally: 1,190 enterprise advisers and 78 enterprise co-ordinators. They have connected 900 schools in about 37 of the 38 local enterprise partnerships, the whole purpose being to build careers links with students and to get them to do work experience.
There is a £5 million careers and enterprise fund to boost provision for nearly 250,000 young people across England in 75% of the areas the Careers & Enterprise Company identified as cold spots. There is a £12 million mentoring fund, because mentoring is incredibly important. This year, £75 million is being spent on the National Careers Service to help its work and £24 million on web kits to support more than 650 people with face-to-face advice. We have started the work.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
My hon. Friend is setting out some important things the Government are doing and no doubt he will explain what more is to be done. Does he agree with Lord Heseltine who said recently in a Select Committee that industrial policy for the benefit of the country starts in primary school classes if we are to achieve the productivity gains we want?
Robert Halfon
My hon. Friend is exactly right. I was in a primary school—it might have been in the constituency of the hon. Member for Blackpool South—where the kids had to guess the career of the individuals there. They included a fire officer, a business person and a pilot, who then went out and returned with their uniforms on. Careers guidance must start in school. We will not achieve what we want unless it starts in primary schools.
I am looking at the matter and there are substantive funds, but we must change the whole argument and gear careers advice towards skills and apprenticeships, although we have no problem with people going to university. I have held roundtables, not just with the great and the good, but with people from up and down the country, to get ideas for how to form our careers strategy. The hon. Member for Batley and Spen is very welcome to take part in them when they carry on next year.
Gordon Marsden
I understand the Minister’s point, and I, likewise, would not want to lumber the institute with the responsibility for all those things. Will he give us an assurance, because he said these things occur from time to time, that there will be, at some point during an annual cycle, what I can only describe as a “state of the nation” report? That report could actually bring these various things—not necessarily all of them—together, so that not only stakeholders but Parliament will have a clear picture of what has happened over the past year.
Robert Halfon
I will reflect on what the hon. Gentleman has said. I reiterate the point that a lot of that is done already. We have monthly and annual announcements of all kinds of data to do with apprenticeships and skills. I always ask about destinations because I think they are incredibly important. I am glad that surveys show, for example, that more than 90% of apprentices get into work afterwards, either by staying in place or entering other employment. That is an incredibly important destination statistic.
On new clause 5, the principle of consultation, which we have mentioned quite a lot today, is already a key feature of the current Institute for Apprenticeships. The institute has a statutory duty under the Enterprise Act 2016 to undertake its functions with regard to industry, commerce, finance, the professions and other employers regarding education and training within the institute’s remit. Even more importantly, the institute must also undertake its functions with regard to those who may wish to undertake education and training that is within the institute’s remit—the apprentices themselves.
More specifically, the institute also already has a statutory responsibility to ensure that all draft standards and assessment plans are subject to third-party scrutiny before they can be considered for approval, and it must take account of the findings and conclusions of those carrying out that independent review. The bodies and organisations listed in the new clause are already covered by that existing legislation, and the institute must have regard to them in all functions, not only the specific function set out in the new clause. That approach will also apply to the functions that the Bill plans to give to the expanded IFATE.
The consultative principles that will underpin the institute have already been evidenced. Antony Jenkins, the shadow chair, has held a series of roundtables with a wide range of external organisations to hear how they think the institute should operate. Later this year the shadow institute will publish a full consultation on the operational plan for the institute, setting out its core functions and proposals for how it will deliver them.
The Department also plans to publish a draft for the consultation of a statutory strategic guidance document, which it will issue to the institute next year. That will include the steers that the Government expect the institute to have regard to. It will ensure that the institute consults all those with an interest when carrying out its functions. I therefore hope that the hon. Members will be reassured and will not press the new clauses.
I will come to an overview of schedule 1 but will begin by answering some of the key questions the hon. Member for Blackpool South asked. Although the 19 to 24-year-old NEET figure increased by 0.8% in July to September, he will know that the overall trend has been down over the years. The figure for 16 to 18-year-olds fell by 1.5% compared with the same quarter in 2015.
The hon. Gentleman also asked about the clarity of a single awarding body—the Wolf report body. Of course, we looked at that but the Wolf report, as the hon. Gentleman will know, identified that a large proportion of vocational qualifications offered very little value to employers, young people and adult learners. The whole purpose is to remove thousands of poor-quality qualifications that were not valued by employers.
The proliferation of qualifications was partly down to the awarding organisations’ competition for market share within the existing system. Following Lord Sainsbury’s recommendations, we are bringing the system into line with the best in the world to ensure excellence in technical education provision and having a single awarding body per qualification model. It is strange that the hon. Gentleman should argue for competition while I am doing the opposite but we live in a topsy-turvy world. We are not being driven by competition in the market, with the adverse effects that that brought. Innovation will be driven by the awarding body competition for the market through winning exclusive licences.
Gordon Marsden
We may live in a topsy-turvy world but, on balance, we are a little less gung-ho about competition than the Minister’s colleague, the Minister for Universities, Science, Research and Innovation, was on the Higher Education and Research Bill Committee. However, that was not the point I was going to make.
The point I want to make is that there is a distinction. I made it clear that I was putting forward the concerns of a number of the awarding organisations that they put to us in evidence. There is a clear difference between letting 1,000 flowers wither because they are of poor quality, and coming down to a single qualification point. I made the observation in one of the papers that the suggestion had been made that there might be two or three. There was no suggestion that there should be no dilution; simply that a monopoly position was possibly unwise, not least because one of the awarding companies might one day go bust.
Robert Halfon
I will reflect on that but the whole purpose is to ensure quality and simplification. Once it is agreed to have another one, then there is another and another and so on. I think we are right to follow the recommendations of Lord Sainsbury and Baroness Wolf.
Tracy Brabin
I appreciate the amount of money given to careers advice; it sounds substantial. I have just googled the Careers & Enterprise Company and discovered that in my region of Leeds city only 5.6% of young people are in apprenticeships; 33% of 16-year-olds and 30% of 17 to 18-year-olds are poorly prepared for work. That is on the Government website. That suggests to me that they have not had brilliant careers advice, even given the extra money that is available, so maybe that message is not coming through.
Robert Halfon
I will find out what the Careers & Enterprise Company is doing in Leeds and in the hon. Lady’s constituency. It will be involved with the LEP, but it has not been there for a long time; it is a recent creation. It has been working to identify the spots where we need help the most. I will look into what is happening and write to the hon. Lady.
On the copyright issue, the content of qualifications will be determined by employers, with the support of the institute. That is very different from the current system, where awarding organisations develop qualifications in subjects or sectors of their choosing. In some cases that is with the involvement of employers, but not always. The new technical qualification will be based on the skills, knowledge and behaviours that employers have identified as requirements for particular occupations. As the content of the qualifications will be determined with the institute’s oversight, it is perfectly reasonable and appropriate that copyright for relevant course documents should rest with the institute.
On the relationship between the framework and the new standards, the same organisations can deliver assessments for frameworks and new standards as long as they meet the criteria for assessment organisations for standards and are admitted on to the register of assessment organisations. The same position exists for training. Providers can offer training for both but need to meet the criteria and get on to the provider register.
When I was talking about careers, I forgot to talk about the investment we are putting into training, which the hon. Member for Blackpool South mentioned. The hon. Member for Batley and Spen gave examples of constituents who are not getting apprenticeships and described the low take-up. For those people, we potentially offer traineeships. We have spent £50 million on that. Many of those people—over 19%—are people with learning difficulties and disabilities.
In terms of Ofqual and Ofsted, I see it not as a problem but as a bonus that there are all these qualification organisations out there, maintaining the quality of apprenticeships and technical education. As the hon. Member for Blackpool South knows, Ofqual and Ofsted are responsible for different elements of the system; Ofqual regulates qualifications and Ofsted regulates the trainers and providers. The institute will regulate the quality of standards and assessment plans. I do not think that is a problem. It is a good thing that all those bodies are there, to ensure we get the quality technical education and apprenticeships we need.
Gordon Marsden
I will reflect on what the Minister said. Even if it is a good thing that there is a plurality of opportunities, I will reiterate two points. First, it does not make the judgment of what capacity the institute may need when competing in this marketplace any easier. Secondly, I hope the Minister will understand and accept that there are enough difficult organograms out there already in further and technical education without creating one with lots of little dotted lines here, there and everywhere. If he is going to maintain that position, it is important that lines of responsibility and why they work are clearly explained to stakeholders and employers.
Robert Halfon
The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point and I will reflect on what he has said, but I think it will be set out clearly. We are considering how the new technical education qualification should be regulated. The regulatory approach will need to be designed specifically for new qualifications and in the light of the institute’s contract management function. Ofqual remains the qualifications regulator.
I am pleased to turn now to the schedule and give an overview of what the Bill seeks to do. We have discussed much of it today. The schedule seeks to extend the remit of the Institute for Apprenticeships to give it responsibility for implementing reforms that we believe will raise the quality of college-based technical education. The reforms will result in technical education courses that are designed around employers’ needs, support young people and adults to secure sustained employment and meet the needs of our economy.
Gordon Marsden
I rise to speak to clause 2 in particular, and to comment on the subsequent clauses that are also a statement of where this is going. It is important, in this context, to reflect—this will be very important when we come to the next part of the Bill—on why this clause is in the Bill in the first place.
The Chair
Mr Marsden, may I make it clear that, if you are speaking to clauses subsequent to clause 2, no amendments have been tabled for clauses 3 to 12 either? We understand that neither the Opposition Front-Bench team, nor the Minister, wish to speak to these clauses. Is that correct?
The Chair
So do we have the leave of the Committee to put the question—after the Minister has spoken—and we have dealt with clause 2, that clauses 3 to 12 stand part of the Bill?
Gordon Marsden
As I was saying, on clauses 2 to 12—we will obviously proceed to the second part of the Bill, which deals, in schedule 3, with the important issue of the innovation of education administrators—it is important to understand why the Government have to address these issues at this time. The reality is that these insolvency rules are important to protect, above all, students and those in colleges. Colleges are crucial for providing further education nationally and have an important local presence. When colleges have financial difficulties, that can affect many stakeholders, including students, employers, lenders, the funding and oversight bodies and the local communities in which they are situated. Colleges are, quintessentially, locally based and respond to local employment and skill needs. That is why they have been successful over the years in being able to adapt, sometimes in a rather more nimble fashion than universities—although there are community-based universities that resemble FE colleges in their output and remit more than they do traditional universities.
The reality is that the FE sector has experienced a prolonged period of funding cuts. The House of Commons Library briefing shows the scale of the reduction in funding: in adult further education and skills, funding fell from a 2010 baseline of
“£3.18 billion to £2.94 billion in 2015-16, a reduction of 8% in cash terms or 14% in real terms.”
The financial health of the FE college sector has been declining since 2010-11. There was a deficit in the sector in 2013 for the first time, and 110 colleges recorded an operating deficit. The number of colleges assessed by the Skills Funding Agency as having inadequate financial health rose from 12 to 29 in the same period. That decline in the sector’s financial health is one of the things that has fuelled what the Government have said here today.
We have already referred to the searing report produced by the National Audit Office in 2015, and I do not intend to go into detail on that again. It is obvious, and not an open secret, that the Treasury has insisted on a robust insolvency scheme as part of the quid pro quo for the additional funding that has gone into the sector. That is the reason for the profusion of these clauses in the Bill.
Mr Ranil Jayawardena (North East Hampshire) (Con)
Is it not also true that, from the evidence received, banks would welcome this certainty? The position for them is currently unclear, and that could help them lend more to the sector, which is invaluable in helping our students.
Gordon Marsden
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, and for the penetrating questions he put to the witnesses. Hopefully that will be a by-product of the process, and that is entirely right. I am also bound to observe that there are other factors pushing it down this route. One of those other factors is the underlying financial weakness of the sector. When the further education commissioner gave evidence—he talked of 82 or 84 colleges in a merger position—he was, to be blunt, far more optimistic and gung-ho about the outcome of those mergers than I would be. From memory, some other members of the Committee expressed a different point of view. The truth of mergers is that they do not always work out well, and this was commented on by Mr Pretty from the Collab Group. He made those observations based on his own experience. There are a number of factors here. Changing priorities in public funding is a reduction, it is how some colleges have struggled with large debts or partially completed capital investment projects. The latter partly reflects weaknesses in the planning and financing of capital projects under the former Learning and Skills Council.
Kelvin Hopkins
Two or three points were made about mergers during our evidence sessions. One was that it is not just a question of scale. Sometimes colleges are not enormous, but they still work well separately. Sometimes mergers take place where a weak college is merged with a strong college, which turns them into a joint weak college, not a joint strong college. So there are all sorts of possibilities, probabilities and problems with mergers, and they should be judged carefully on their own merits.
Gordon Marsden
My hon. Friend is right, and what he says is underpinned by his great experience in this area. I am not saying that every area review that produces merger proposals will automatically result in colleges finding themselves in a financially weaker position and therefore more in need of the insolvency clauses in the Bill than otherwise, but it is part and parcel of that aspect.
It is not just FE colleges feeling the strain. It was helpful to have the presence of the Sixth Form Colleges Association in the evidence session. It, too, mentioned courses having to be dropped as a result of funding pressures. Three quarters of colleges have limited the size of their study programmes and more than a third do not believe that next year’s funding will be sufficient to provide the support for educationally or economically disadvantaged students.
In my neck of the woods, as well as the excellent FE college, Blackpool and the Fylde College, which the Minister visited, is Blackpool Sixth Form College, which is also an excellent college that has, over the years, done splendid work on the vocational side, in traditional qualifications and with the previous Aiming Higher programmes. Although the college is outside of my constituency—it is just in the constituency of the hon. Member for Wyre and Preston North (Mr Wallace)—it takes students from three or four constituencies. It has done splendid work, but the previous principal and the current principal have had to juggle the finances very carefully indeed to complete some of the programmes they wanted to do for the college and for the physical infrastructure. Sometimes the physical infrastructure of such colleges is 30 or 40 years old, and needs renewing.
I am reflecting on the various factors that give rise to the clauses we are passing into legislation. I want to focus us on the detailed conversations we will have when we move on. The picture of fragility that I described makes it even more important that the insolvency clauses and the position of the educational administrator, which we will talk about in considerable detail in due course, are a real answer to this problem, rather than something that sounds good on paper but does not do the business in practice.
Kelvin Hopkins
I have some experience in these matters. There have been funding pressures in all spheres of post-16 education, although not necessarily in universities, which seem to be well funded compared with other areas. In spite of the fact that there are advantages of scale in producing wide ranges of subjects in whatever qualification one is taking, some of the smaller subjects are, even now, dying. We are getting to a point where subjects such as modern European languages are being lost entirely from an area because no college or school will teach them any more. That is tragic. We should be creating more variety of opportunity in technical and academic education, not less.
My second major speech when I first came into this place was about funding for sixth-form colleges and the fact that they did a superb job. I said that funding constraints were in danger of killing the goose that lays the golden eggs: the sixth-form college sector. They do a fabulous job and I know from experience that we should have created more of them. Sadly, a view was held that we should create lots of schools with small, less efficient sixth forms with much narrower subject ranges, instead of sixth-form colleges. I think that went in entirely the wrong direction. I hope that I can persuade the Minister and others that we ought to look more favourably on sixth-form colleges and FE colleges if we are to make serious advances in educating and training our young people better than we have done in the recent past.
Robert Halfon
May I put some things in context for the hon. Member for Blackpool South before I speak directly on the clause? No one denies that there have been funding pressures, as the hon. Member for Luton North pointed out, but, even with such pressures, 80% of colleges are either good or outstanding, and 79% of adult FE students get jobs, move to apprenticeships or progress to university. Some 59% of institutions are in good financial health and 52% are operating with a surplus. That does not mean everything is rosy, but it puts things into context.
Gordon Marsden
I have two observations: first, “protecting” is an interesting word when we are talking cash terms as they are not real terms. By 2020 inflation may have eaten into that figure. Secondly, the hon. Gentleman mentions the advanced learning loans, but are they not sums of money out there to be offered—and at the moment, only 50% of them have been taken up?
Robert Halfon
Yes, but it is still a Government expenditure item and its aim is to help more people take part in education.
Overall, the Department for Education plans to invest £7 billion in 2016-17 to fund education and training places for 16 to 19-year-olds. The area reviews will support those colleges that want to merge—no one is being forced to merge—and we will provide financial support where appropriate to help them do so. We are confident about the programme and we will deliver strong, sustainable colleges for the future. Mergers do not necessarily mean that provision in a local area will end. It will be up to the colleges to decide whether to keep a campus or site open.
The clause is probably the least technical of the Bill’s insolvency-related clauses. It explains that part 2 is about the insolvency of further education bodies and, in summarising what is covered by chapters 2 to 7, sets the scene for what we will debate over the coming sittings. Underneath the simple clause is the Government’s commitment to ensuring that every young person has the opportunity to achieve their full potential and to succeed.
The Secretary of State talked about the Government’s commitment to building a further education sector capable of delivering these skills and that is why we are supporting colleges through the area review to take whatever steps are needed to transform themselves into providers of the highest quality teaching. We are providing them with the opportunity to ensure they are in a strong and sustainable financial position for the future.
Once the area review recommendations have been implemented, the Government has been clear that we will no longer provide exceptional financial support to colleges that find themselves in financial difficulties. We will draw a line under what has become an implicit understanding among creditors and some educational institutions that those who fall into extreme financial difficulty will be able to rely on the taxpayer to make good the shortfall.
The provisions in the Bill will send a clear message to colleges that, to deliver excellence in teaching and leadership, they need to ensure that they have strong and robust financial controls in place. The commissioner who gave evidence said that, where there had been significant problems, much had been down to leadership and financial management. Why is it that so many colleges are doing extremely well, the college of the hon. Member for Blackpool South being an example?
Any college or creditor in extreme financial difficulties cannot look to the Government as the bank of mum and dad for a bail-out. The bank of mum and dad—the taxpayer—will be shut, because we have a duty to give taxpayer value.
Although we expect a college insolvency to be a rare thing, we cannot say it will never happen. That is why the measures the Bill introduces will ensure existing insolvency procedures apply to further education bodies, whereas ordinary insolvency procedures would offer protection only to creditors.
If I summed up this part of the Bill in a few words, it would be about protection, insurance, prudence and caution. Through the Bill we will introduce a special administration regime for the sector that ensures that, in the unlikely event that a college become insolvent, the Secretary of State or Welsh Ministers will be able to take action to protect the interests of the learners.
That is at the heart of the Bill: protecting learners and ensuring that colleges are cautious about borrowing and banks are cautious and prudent about lending. Young people entering a college expect to complete their studies, leaving with the skills that they need to move forward in their lives. That is the purpose of the SAR and I urge that the clause stand part of the Bill.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 2 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 3 to 12 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(David Evennett.)
Technical and Further Education Bill (Seventh sitting)
Thursday 1st December 2016
(7 years, 11 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Technical and Further Education Act 2017 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 1 December 2016 - (1 Dec 2016)
The Chair
Members may remove their jackets during the sitting if they wish. Will everyone please ensure that all electronic devices are turned off or switched to silent mode? The selection list for today’s sitting is available in the room. I remind Committee members that we will consider clauses and schedules in the order set out in the programme order, which has been previously agreed and is set out at the end of the amendment paper. We will start with clause 13, to which no amendments have been tabled.
Clause 13
Overview of Chapter
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills (Robert Halfon)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, Mr Bailey. The clause is the first in chapter 4, which deals with the regime at the heart of the insolvency measures in the Bill. In this chapter, we make provision for the special administration regime that will make sure that students attending further education bodies in England and Wales are protected should that body fail. Hon. Members will be aware that the regime has been broadly welcomed by all, and I am grateful to the hon. Member for Blackpool South for welcoming it previously. That is not to say that there are no points of concern for stakeholders, but I hope to address those as we work our way through the clauses.
The clause sets out the when, the who and the what of the regime, which will be formally known as education administration. First, the when: the regime can be used when
“a further education body is unable to pay its debts or is likely to become unable to pay its debts”—
in other words, when an FE body is insolvent, based on the well established definition in the Insolvency Act 2000. Secondly, the who: an education administrator can be appointed by the court only on the application of the Secretary of State or Welsh Ministers, depending on where the FE body is based. Thirdly, the what: the education administrator will be responsible for managing the FE body’s
“affairs, business and property with a view to avoiding or minimising disruption to the studies of existing students.”
Each of those features is set out in more detail in subsequent clauses. I look forward to debating them with members of the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 13 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 14
Objective of education administration
Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)
I beg to move amendment 1, in clause 14, page 8, line 4, at end insert—
“(3) Before an education administrator may perform functions specified in subsection (2), they must ensure an appropriate assessment is made and published of the impact of performing such functions, including, but not restricted, to—
(a) the impact on the quality of education provided to existing students of the further education body;
(b) the capacity of another body or institution to undertake any additional functions or provide education to additional students;
(c) the infrastructure of the local area, in particular transport;
(d) any impact on the travel arrangements of students to another body or institution; and,
(e) any financial impact on those students or any such impact on their travel arrangements, and what measures need to be taken to mitigate them.
(4) The Secretary of State shall make regulations to specify suitable bodies for making the assessments at subsection (3).”.
This amendment would ensure that an appropriate assessment is made of any potential impacts on students and their education, if an education administrator puts a further education body into “special administration” and takes action such as transferring students to another institution or keeps an insolvent institution open for existing students. This amendment would also require the Secretary of State to specify suitable bodies to perform such assessments.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 2, in clause 14, page 8, line 4, at end insert—
“(3) The education administrator shall not make any decisions required by subsection (2) without consulting—
(a) existing students of the further education body;
(b) existing staff of the further education body
(c) all recognised trade unions at the further education body.”.
This amendment would ensure that all relevant stakeholders are fully consulted about decisions taken by the education administrator in respect of the future of the further education institution.
Gordon Marsden
Good morning, Mr Bailey. It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. The Minister is right to say that we welcome the concept of the insolvency regime. We think it is necessary in the context that I talked about at the end of the last session, so we do not intend to oppose the principle of it in any shape or form. However, as the Minister has observed, we intend to probe—more sharply on some aspects than others.
If I may, Mr Bailey, I will speak to the two amendments we have tabled separately; although they are linked, they have rather different focuses and emphases. Amendment 1 aims to ensure that an appropriate assessment is made of any potential impacts on students and their education if an education administrator puts a further education body into special administration and takes action such as transferring students to another institution, or keeps an insolvent institution open for existing students. We recognise that the decision whether to transfer students to another institution or to keep an insolvent institution open for existing students is fraught with potential difficulty and will certainly demand great skill and finesse on the part of the education administrator. The Minister may wish to bear that in mind when we consider later Opposition amendments, which will probe him a little more on the nature, experience and qualifications of the education administrator.
The crux of the amendment relates to some of the matters we discussed when considering similar provisions in the Higher Education and Research Bill. The amendment would ensure that the entitlement that the Bill gives students to continue their education works in practice. We know that cases of colleges failing or other crises have arisen both in FE and in HE. I do not want to exaggerate those issues, because I take on board the points made by the Association of Colleges and other college organisations that the vast majority of FE colleges conduct their affairs in a very wholesome and satisfactory fashion, as my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North has mentioned previously.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
Amendment 1 is very simple and I hope the Government will be minded to accept it in some form. Have we had any response, contribution or advice from the Association of Colleges or the Sixth Form Colleges Association? Do they broadly agree with the Government’s proposals? Are they agreeable to our amendment?
Gordon Marsden
My hon. Friend is right that we need to get support from those organisations. The AOC has raised particular issues relating to later Opposition amendments, such as amendment 34 to clause 15. Some of those concerns will be explored when we consider those amendments.
The ambitions of the special administration provisions are noble, but amendment 1 is intended to serve as a safeguard against any unintended consequences. As we know, even isolated incidents of colleges that hit the headlines can have a deleterious effect on the sector. The sector is in a delicate state at the moment—I will not put it any stronger than that—so if this provision is needed, we should do what we can to avoid problems with the impact on students and education.
As far as I understand it—I say that with due modesty, because some of this is quite technical—the education administrator will be given four options for supporting students to continue their education if their college becomes insolvent: selling assets to keep a college afloat; bringing in another body to take on functions of the college; transferring students to another college; and keeping the college
“going until existing students have completed their studies”.
That last phrase is rather ambiguous, and it would be good to hear the Minister’s thoughts on it. Whether in his response to the amendment or later this morning, it would be useful to hear whether there are any thoughts on the timeframe of that option.
All the options are sensible. I do not think that any member of the Committee would suggest that they should not be pursued by the education administrator if students’ education were put in jeopardy by insolvency, but there are questions about the finessing of those options, about which option the administrator thinks it best to pursue, and about the timeframes. Again, the Minister may want to say something about potential timeframes as we go along. Sometimes the education administrator might need to use more than one of those four options, perhaps at different points in the process. Our amendment addresses what that will mean for students in those different circumstances. To do that, we propose that an assessment be made of the impact of the administrator’s decision on students and the local community, enabling any negative impacts to be appropriately mitigated.
We are realistic. We know that sometimes difficult situations bubble up over a long period of time and there are amber warnings, but sometimes, because some of the problems have been concealed, they blow up very rapidly and hit the headlines. Ministers, the new institute or, indeed, the Skills Funding Agency may have to move swiftly in such circumstances. We understand that. We do not want this to become an over-bureaucratic, long-winded, time-consuming process, but we believe that a definitive assessment is needed somewhere in the process.
We have several concerns. If an administrator keeps a college going so that existing students can finish, for example, one can see the potential benefits for the students. While it will depend on the nature of their contract—the University and College Union and others have previously raised concerns that the FE sector is becoming a mélange of shorter term contracts—there will be lecturers and staff on contracts of significant duration, and it would be understandable, perhaps highly probable, that they would seek to leave. After all, the involvement of an education administrator is essentially a sign of a potentially failed college and that their employer, at least in the way that he, she or it employs them, will either close or change in the near future. Any exodus of staff in such circumstances could have untold impacts on the quality of education that students receive. We, and I am sure the students at such colleges, want to know what transitional measures are envisaged to maintain the delicate balance needed to protect the quality of education that students receive at a college that is being kept open on life support. That is option 1.
Option 2 is an administrator deciding to begin selling off college assets to address the insolvency issues, or just to keep the college afloat. What protections will there be so that resources that are integral to a learner’s studies will not be sold off? I understand that it is impossible to make an absolute judgment in every case on whether an administrator should do one or the other. It will obviously depend on the individual circumstances and assets and so on, but computers and ICT—I think “digital services” is the more up-to-date term—spring to mind. Often worth a significant sum, they may be an attractive asset that is easy to sell quickly for a good taking; on the other hand, selling them off could leave less equipment to share between the college’s remaining students, which would have a negative impact on their learning experience.
Additionally, the area reviews and mergers need to be thought about in great detail. In our evidence session I traded questions with the FE commissioner on the impact of that. He takes a more sanguine view of that process than the Committee and I do, but time will tell. What we know is that in circumstances where learners need to be transferred to another college—that does not necessarily mean that the whole body will close, as someone suggested—the college building could continue but, for whatever reason, the students in a particular department or area are transferred to another college, possibly for economies of scale. It is not necessarily that one particular college is closed and absorbed into another.
Kelvin Hopkins
These events would be of great concern to students and staff alike if they happened, but we hope they will not and we will try to ensure that they do not. However, if there are to be changes, would it not be wise—or essential—to make sure they take place during the long summer vacation, so that they do not disrupt students in the middle of courses during in the academic year?
Gordon Marsden
My hon. Friend, as always, makes a good and practical point. I have two observations. One is that crises cannot always be managed and sometimes they blow up from nowhere. My other observation is that among the pressures on FE colleges these days is the fact that the long summer break is becoming less long. That is true for FE students as well as other students. However, my hon. Friend’s general point is absolutely right and needs to be taken into account.
There are plenty of questions to be answered for students. How close to their home and their old college would the new college or facility—it may not be a completely new college—be? How much more expensive and time consuming would it be to get there? We know that college students have to spend a considerable amount of money on travel and we know that the mechanisms for supporting them are highly variable, particularly with local authorities’ discretionary spending being cut to the bone in a range of areas. There is already a risk of making some education and courses inaccessible for the less well-off.
What financial support does the Minister envisage might be available to help such students to access education at a new institution if it turns out that the challenges are considerably greater? For example, would the new college have the capacity to respond to any influx of new students? As I have indicated, insolvency might result in some students finding themselves forced to travel longer distances to continue their studies, but there is no reference in the Bill to mechanisms by which they might be supported or compensated. I understand that that is not something that should necessarily go into the Bill, but while I appreciate that a lot of things must be worked out, it is a bit worrying that it seems that, even at this stage, not much thought is being given to some of these issues. If it is, I apologise.
Mergers between colleges can be harmful to the social fabric and social mobility, particularly for young people in rural and suburban areas, and might force them to travel 30 or 40 miles to college. I raised this point in Westminster Hall about a year ago with the Minister’s predecessor, who seemed to be somewhat miffed that I referred to his predecessor, the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes), being decidedly agnostic about the prospect of mergers. That was the case, however, and it was because the right hon. Gentleman’s constituency is very rural, so he has a lot of knowledge and concern about the issue.
We must make a distinction between the geographical situation when there is insolvency and the mechanisms to deal with it. For example, when two colleges merge in a suburban or rural setting, the implications for the ability to maintain courses, and thus viability, will be significant if issues such as travel loom large and make it impossible for existing students to go there or for future students to want to go there. Even in urban areas—parts of Greater Manchester, for example—public transport is not necessarily good. In my constituency, travelling west to east or east to west on public transport tends to be more difficult than going north to south. There is a range of concerns.
We have seen during the ongoing area review process that the Government have encouraged colleges either to merge or to close. The new FE commissioner said in evidence that provision at levels 1 and 2 in particular needs to be as local as possible to learners, whether in an urban or a rural area, but he accepted that if people do not have the wherewithal to travel, they will not be able to do so. Shakira Martin of the NUS said in the evidence session:
“It is also not clear how the Government will make sure that the education the student receives in the college is kept open and to a high-quality standard. For example, the area review process may have unintended impacts. There will be fewer colleges, further apart. How will travel costs and access”—
time is an issue as well, not simply cost—
“be addressed?”––[Official Report, Technical and Further Education Public Bill Committee, 22 November 2016; c. 51, Q69.]
In evidence, Bev Robinson, the principal and chief executive of Blackpool and The Fylde College, who was a member of—[Interruption.]
Gordon Marsden
I was talking about how travel costs and access would be dealt with and I was about to quote the comments of a witness, Bev Robinson, the principal and chief executive of Blackpool and The Fylde College. She said:
“I would wish to make sure that learning within a reasonable travel-to-learn pattern was protected as well as students.”––[Official Report, Technical and Further Education Public Bill Committee, 22 November 2016; c. 51, Q70.]
I see nothing in the Bill about where the funding to support this process will come from, and Ministers have not said a great deal about it.
Research released in 2015 by the National Union of Students and the AOC showed that only 49% of further education students can always afford their travel costs. The average travel time for those surveyed was two hours and 48 minutes a day, for an average distance of 11 miles. Many young people—about 40%—rely on financial support from parents or guardians for travel costs. The problem is of course exacerbated by the lack of national funding schemes to get young people to college. Even the minority of councils that offered discounted travel for young people on a discretionary basis are now less likely to do so, following major Government cuts. The amendment would require those matters to be considered so that appropriate measures could be put in place, although such issues are difficult to legislate for and there are unknown consequential effects. Invoking education administration powers may affect students, but that is precisely the point of the amendment: it would ensure that whatever impacts the powers have in practice, they are assessed within the local circumstances of the college in which the powers are needed. That is an important part of the education administrator’s responsibilities.
If students have to travel longer distances to college, incurring higher costs, it strengthens our argument that education maintenance allowance should be reintroduced to help cover those expenses.
Kelvin Hopkins
My hon. Friend makes a very strong point. For poorer students travel to colleges is expensive even now, particularly in sparsely populated rural areas. The closure of a college in one town and having to go to a town many miles further on will cause great difficulty in financial terms and in terms of the time spent travelling and the reliability of public transport.
Gordon Marsden
My hon. Friend again makes a very good point. It underlines our concerns and why we think such issues need to be taken into account.
Amendment 2 is designed to ensure that, within the circumstances in which the process takes place, all relevant stakeholders are fully consulted about decisions taken by the education administrator in respect of the future of the institution. This touches on a theme not dissimilar to that which we discussed during the debates on schedule 1 to the Higher Education and Research Bill, where consultation with staff and students was a high priority.
The amendment would ensure that there is full consultation with various bodies or groups representing further education staff and students. Members of the Committee might ask, “Is this necessary? Surely the students and the student body are bound to be informed,” but I have to say—Members may have experience of this—that is supposed to be the case when businesses fail and companies go bust or when something cataclysmic happens, but often workers or employees are not kept in the loop. We should legislate for the worst scenarios and the worst employers, not for the best.
It is important that the education administrator should consider representations from relevant stakeholders such as students and staff, as they have invested two or three years of their time and money in studying and their livelihoods will depend on the institution in question. It is surely not too much to ask that the education administrator should have the responsibility placed on him or her to consider those representations, too.
The other group it is vital to consult are recognised trade unions at the further education body. The positive influence of unions on training and skills in the workplace and in colleges is another key reason why unions should be consulted. Research by Unionlearn has shown, as I have mentioned before, that the union effect on skills across the whole economy is significant and has strengthened in recent years. I am obviously referring to the training that goes on at work, but often the trade union representatives who operate in a college will be either union learning reps themselves or closely associated with union learning reps. That point needs to be made. On the union learning fund, an independent evaluation has demonstrated a range of new findings about the positive impact of union learning for both employers and employees. That also has a bearing on the necessity and advisability of consulting the recognised trade unions at the further education college in question.
I will finish with those remarks, but I ask that the Minister gives some thought to both amendments. These are things that should happen, and by making the amendments we would ensure that they do happen.
Robert Halfon
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his thoughtful amendments. I will comment on a few of the points he made, then go into the substance of the amendments.
The hon. Gentleman will know that the AOC, the Sixth Form Colleges Association and the Collab Group work closely with the Government and will continue to do so as we develop secondary legislation to address their concerns. On trade unions, I will come on to the general point about consultation, but first let me quote the TUC:
“Whilst the TUC continues to express concerns about the financial pressures colleges are facing due to the major cuts to the sector…we do welcome the new safeguards that will enable students to complete their courses in the event of a college becoming insolvent.”
In addition, we have committed £12 million to Unionlearn.
The hon. Gentleman asked where the funding was coming from. Crucially, clause 25 states that the Secretary of State will have the power to fund special administration as long as the funding is for the purpose of achieving a special objective through either a grant or a loan, and the decision on funding will obviously be taken on a case-by-case basis. The whole purpose of the education administrator is to speed things up. If we look at this in a general context, at the moment there is no protection; there is nothing. We are creating a protection regime for students with the purpose of ensuring that the education administrator acts quickly.
The hon. Gentleman talked about an exodus of staff. If colleges reach such a situation, it is likely that there will have been some kind of intervention, perhaps by the FE commissioner, way in advance. I do not think that would suddenly come about just because of the insolvency regime. All staff will be subject to statutory legislation on terms of employment and so on. That is worth noting. There cannot be a one-size-fits-all solution.
I am talking as though these circumstances will arise regularly. They will not. The whole purpose of the SAR is, as I said last week, to be an insurance against the worst possible outcome, which I think, given what is happening with the area reviews, will be very rare indeed.
Gordon Marsden
I understand that this will have to be done on a case-by-case basis, but has the amount of money that might be needed in a calendar year to deal with this been assessed? Obviously, it will have to be agreed with the Treasury. The Minister says he does not think this scenario is likely, given the area reviews. I hope he is right, but I am very conscious that the FE commissioner said the number of colleges that may merge on this basis might be in the 80s. Surely there might be problems with at least some of those, and surely that should have been taken into account.
Robert Halfon
There is a substantial restructuring fund, which I believe is about £756 million. As I say, funding of a SAR has to be done on a case-by-case basis because every case will be completely different. It will be up to the education administrator to decide how to proceed. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the different options.
Tracy Brabin (Batley and Spen) (Lab)
Before I make my comment, I thank the Minister for his letter this morning on the Careers & Enterprise Company. I was grateful to receive it and I thank him for sending it in such a timely fashion. I have been monitoring the situation locally, and if things work, I will be encouraging other sixth-form departments in schools to get involved, because some schools are not doing so.
The Minister says that the measure will speed things up, but there is one thing on which I could do with some clarification. Clause 23 relates to transfer schemes. The explanatory notes say that:
“Such schemes can be used to override some third party rights, e.g. transferring a lease without the landlord’s consent”.
I want to double-check something. If that were to happen with Kirklees Council and someone wanted to take back a building, that could lead to some sort of legal dispute. Would that not hold up the transfer of the students to another college and the process of their learning?
Robert Halfon
Will the hon. Lady allow me to think about that example? We will consider transfer schemes in detail later, but I do not think the issue she highlights would arise. The transfer schemes are particularly about looking after the students and establishing who the provider is if the existing college management are no longer looking after the students. There might be a different provider, but we will come on to that point later in our consideration.
Mr Ranil Jayawardena (North East Hampshire) (Con)
Is not the point, as we heard in the evidence from the banks, that some banks may take a view that they should realise their security? The provision allows for learners to be prioritised in any transfer or land, property and so on, so that that is to their interests. They should come first.
Robert Halfon
My hon. Friend has it exactly right. He asked that question in our evidence sessions, and one of the banks said, “No, our whole purpose is to act in the interest of the lenders.” The whole purpose of this provision, however, is to act in the students’ interest. Creditors will get a fair deal, but one that is in the interest of students.
I will come on to transfer schemes in a minute. The area review mergers are different, but it is important to quote Richard Atkins, the FE Commissioner, from the evidence session. He said:
“Mergers do not necessarily mean the closure of sites, so they do not mean the end of provision for students locally. Clearly, in rural areas, for example, the history of the sector has been that provision has not gone even when there have been mergers. When Truro and Penwith came together, that did not end provision in Penzance. In fact, it regenerated the provision in Penzance to a higher standard. You can see that across the country.”
I accept he is talking about area reviews, but he went on to say:
“The idea that you close provision down in a particular district, borough or town is not something I would be in favour of at all. I would be looking for merger solutions that bring together back-room services, avoid duplication and so on.”––[Official Report, Technical and Further Education Public Bill Committee, 22 November 2016; c. 26, Q34.]
This will not always be the case, but it is important to say that a merger does not necessarily mean the closure of provision in an area.
Gordon Marsden
I entirely accept what the Minister has just said, but at the risk of over-stressing the point, decisions about transferring students can affect the closure of courses. The closure of courses is not necessarily the same as closing a site, but it can have a deleterious effect on an area. One can think of a college where lots of people are doing accountancy and that course becomes no longer available in that town, even though the college is still going to be there. That is the only point I want to make. The issue is broader than simply saying, “You either close the college or you don’t.” There is a suite of potential impacts there.
Robert Halfon
I accept that completely, but I was just trying to again make the point that currently if a college has financial difficulties, it can close a particular bit of provision and no one has any guarantees whatever. This measure will change that.
On the transfer schemes, it is important to talk about the statutory duties. We all know that under the Education Act 1996, the Secretary of State has a general duty to promote education and exercise his or her powers
“with a view to…improving standards, encouraging diversity and increasing opportunities for choice.”
Local authorities have a duty to ensure that their areas have sufficient education and training provision. They also have a duty to publish a transport statement setting out what arrangements they consider necessary to support young people to access education or training.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned education maintenance allowance. We took the view that we want to give funds to those who most need it, and the problem with the education maintenance allowance was that it went to everyone. It was paid to 45% of all 16 to 18-year-olds in further education and it was not income-related, which is why we introduced the 16-to-19 bursary fund.
Gordon Marsden
I hesitate to cross swords with the Minister but I think that is factually not entirely correct. The education maintenance allowance came in at least two—I think were three—different tiers. The top tier, which from memory was about £30 a week, was specifically focused in many cases on travel. I do not wish to move outside of the scope of the amendment, Mr Bailey, but it is important to make this point: subsequent assessments of the impact on students who had had it taken away showed significantly that the travel aspect of the different elements was most well regarded. I am not here to open up a debate about EMA—we have given our points of view—but it is important for the Minister to take those points on board.
Robert Halfon
I do, but an independent evaluation found that only about one in 10 of those who received EMA said that they would not be able to participate without it. That is why we introduced the 16-to-19 bursary fund—to ensure that the money goes to those who need it—which amounts to £177 million for 2015-16. That is why, as the hon. Gentleman knows, I campaigned successfully with the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) for free school meals for students from disadvantaged backgrounds in FE colleges. The Government are spending £39 million on that. That is separate from the £500 million that is given to the FE sector to spend on what FE bodies like, but primarily for helping the disadvantaged. The Government are doing everything that they can to ensure that those in need are getting the right support.
Let me move on to the substance of the amendment. We want to be sure that, as far as possible, if their college finds itself in financial distress students are able to continue their studies with little or no disruption. The clause does that by setting out the overarching objective for the education administration: to “avoid or minimise disruption” to the students.
The hon. Member for Blackpool South noted that the special objective can be achieved in a number of ways, and we do not believe that one size fits all. It could be done by rescuing the body as a going concern, with a new principal and governors if necessary; by merging with another body, perhaps another college nearby; by keeping the college open to teach out the existing students; or by arranging for students to transfer to another college to complete their studies. That list is not exhaustive, nor is it intended to be prescriptive. There may be other options, and those are not intended to be mutually exclusive. Occasionally some students might be transferred to another college and others taught out. It will be for the education administrator to decide what is best, based on the circumstances of each case.
I appreciate the suggestions made by the hon. Gentleman, but I assure him that it is inconceivable that the education administrator would take decisions on how the special objective would be met without first having had conversations with a wide range of stakeholders. Let me be clear: I and the Government would expect, in an appropriate case, the education administrator to liaise with the FE commissioner—that view was shared by the FE commissioner last week in his evidence—who might be able to advise the education administrator whom they should be speaking to in addition to staff, students, local authorities and the other providers. We would expect that the EA, in seeking to fulfil the special objective to avoid or minimise disruption to students’ studies, would seek to satisfy themselves that, as far as possible, the quality of the education or training that students have been receiving at the college is maintained. That may be achieved by transferring students to another provider or by continuing to teach them in the FE body until they complete their courses.
We expect the education administrator to take travel distances into account when considering the transfer of students to another provider, on the basis that the special objective is about avoiding or minimising disruption to the studies of existing students. Where possible he may choose to take into account the generally used guideline of travel for learners of no more than 75 minutes to and from their place of study, even though the FE commissioner observed to the Committee that some—not all; not those who are not able to—learners are happy to travel considerable distances for the right provision.
I understand the concerns that amendment 1 seeks to address in relation to additional transport-related costs for students in the event that they are transferred to another body. For those who are transferred, there may be scope for the EA to set up a scheme to cover some or more of the additional travel costs from any funding provided by the Secretary of State or Welsh Ministers, as I highlighted a moment ago in terms of clause 25. Although there is no obligation on FE bodies to provide student transport, it is open for them to use the resources that are available to best support their students because, as I mentioned, disadvantage funding is not ring-fenced. Where students attract such funding, FE bodies can decide upon the most appropriate offer for their students. Often they do give those students free transport.
The education administrator will want to be sure that in deciding the right option for dealing with the particular body in insolvency, they have assessed a wide range of factors, including those set out in the amendment, calling on advice and input as necessary from those best placed to help. It is therefore unnecessary for the Secretary of State to make regulations to specify “suitable bodies” for making the assessments described in the hon. Gentleman’s amendment.
We are keen to strike the balance between a fair and thorough process that generates well thought through conclusions, and a system that is not so rigid that it ends up working against the interests of students by being drawn out and cumbersome. The hon. Gentleman observed that himself. The longer it takes to end the education administration, the longer students face uncertainty and possible disruption. The number of FE bodies and their different circumstances mean that there would be no single solution in the event of an insolvency, and the education administrator needs the flexibility to be able to do what is right in the circumstances.
As the hon. Member for Batley and Spen said in the evidence session on 22 November, we need to give students certainty about what will happen as quickly as possible; that is as much true for the staff, and for the creditors. Of course, if students, or anyone else, are unhappy with the EA’s actions, they can bring their concerns to the attention of the Secretary of State, or the Welsh Ministers, who have the power to be able to challenge the education administrator through the courts if the EA is not carrying out their functions for the purposes of achieving the special objective or the objective relating to the creditors.
I recognise the intention behind the amendments and believe that, as much as possible, the Bill covers the issues that the hon. Gentleman has raised. I hope that he is reassured enough to withdraw the amendment.
Gordon Marsden
I am grateful to the Minister for the detail that he has gone into. It is particularly useful that he made the point about there being scope for the EA to get supplementary funding in certain circumstances. That is welcome. We may want to look again at this issue on Report, but at the moment I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 14 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 15
Education administration order
Gordon Marsden
I beg to move amendment 34, in clause 15, page 8, line 11, at end insert
“and has relevant experience and knowledge of the further education sector.”
To ensure that the education administrator has experience and knowledge of the further education sector so that decisions made are not exclusively in the context of insolvency and takes into account the needs of students.
I am pleased to move the amendment, because it enables us—I hope in a positive fashion—to probe further about the important role of the education administrator. As I said earlier, and notwithstanding what the Minister has said about the general welcome that the Association of Colleges and other bodies have given to these provisions, the association is keen to probe further in this area, and we have taken many of its points on board in drafting the amendment. The purpose of the amendment is to ensure so far as possible that the education administrator has experience and knowledge of the further education sector—that may sound like a no-brainer, but we nevertheless need to make the point—so decisions are not made exclusively in the context of insolvency but take into account the needs of students.
This is not a criticism, but the first time I went through the Bill in detail, I was conscious that there would inevitably be a tension—a creative one, I hope—between a traditional insolvency process and the needs of students. The Minister has rightly emphasised firmly that students will be the priority, but the devil is in the detail and there are sometimes even more devils in the process, as was interestingly illustrated in our evidence session with the representatives of the banks. The hon. Member for North East Hampshire pressed them on this point, but I also saw it from the other point of view. There will always be that tension, because although the education administrator has a primary responsibility, he or she has dual responsibilities. Other clauses make that clear, so we will come to it when we look at those.
The Government foresee that this regime will be used rarely. It was helpful to have Mr Harris from Ernst and Young at the evidence session, because he had specific experience in other sectors, including energy, health and railways. The Association of Colleges points out that the idea of protecting
“a public service while creating a financial framework to govern the independent organisations that provide them”
is not entirely new and can be summarised as:
“the service continues; the service provider may not.”
The AOC wants to emphasise, as both the Minister and I have referred to, that the
“vast majority of colleges have strong governance, professional management and sound finances”,
but the fact is—we will not go into the detail or cross swords about this again today—that
“the sector is under increasing financial pressure mainly as a result of government spending cuts, and questions remain over where responsibility in this area lies.”
The association also notes that the Bill will give
“the Secretary of State the power to appoint a special administrator who will have duties not just towards the college’s creditors (banks, Local Government Pension Scheme, staff and suppliers) but also a duty to avoid or minimize disruption to the studies of existing students as a whole.”
As I understand it—the Minister will correct me if I am wrong—the education administrator is required to be an insolvency practitioner, yet there is a tension, as I have mentioned, because a critical part of their role is to protect student interests rather than simply those of financial creditors. It is therefore essential that the criteria for appointing the EA include experience and knowledge of education administration, so that they can make decisions in the context strongly of an educational institution with the needs of students at the forefront. It would therefore be worth clarifying the criteria for when an EA is appointed and whether a specific action will trigger that.
With the amendment, we are also probing what the relationship between the education administrator and the further education commissioner will be. The Bill does not make clear what interaction there will be between the EA and the FE commissioner, who will intervene or at what point, although I accept that the Minister has already alluded to the circumstances in which the FE commissioner might become involved. Although we recognise that FE commissioner is not a statutory post, it might be useful to have more clarification—not necessarily today, but in a guidance document or whatever at some point—of what the relationship will be and at what point interactions between the two post holders will take place.
It is worth emphasising that Bev Robinson, who as well as being a principal served on the Sainsbury panel, said in the evidence session:
“I welcome the idea of an education administrator with hopefully an FE background”—
we can interpret “FE background” as we wish—
“but it might benefit from having clarity around the different roles of the different people in play—for example, the FE commissioner: how that would work.”––[Official Report, Technical and Further Education Public Bill Committee, 22 November 2016; c. 51, Q70.]
I have made the more general point about the plethora of organisations in this area and referred to it perhaps slightly unkindly as an alphabet soup—that is what it sometimes looks like—in the context of the creation of the new institute, but even if we leave aside the new institute, there is already a complex landscape for financial oversight. There are currently four different Government bodies with that role. They are the Education Funding Agency, the Skills Funding Agency, the FE commissioner and the transaction unit. All those bodies, I am assured, report to the joint SFA-EFA chief executive, who is at present Peter Lauener, but they all use differing measures of financial performance. That is, to put it mildly, an aspect of inconsistency, which I and the AOC believe will need to be resolved by 2018, because it is likely that if that complexity continues—I am thinking particularly of the issues with differing measures of financial performance—it could slow down the investment and other decisions that the education administrator might need to make in the event of insolvency and, as I think both the Minister and I have agreed, in circumstances whose urgency will vary considerably.
I am interested in what further the Minister has to offer us in terms of how experience and knowledge of the sector is to be gained. Perhaps he will also, if he is able to at this stage, comment on the relationship between the administrator and the FE commissioner and the issues that I have raised about the landscape for financial oversight.
Robert Halfon
I again thank the hon. Gentleman for his remarks and his thoughtful amendment. I not only understand the concerns but, when looking at the Bill in the early stages, asked those questions myself. I hope that I can reassure him. I will answer some parts of what he said and then go into the substance, if I may.
On a point of clarification, it will be for the Secretary of State or the Welsh Minister to decide whether to apply for an education administration order, but they can do so only if the FE body is insolvent in accordance with the definition in clause 17—if it is unable or unlikely to pay the debt. It does not happen automatically.
The hon. Member for Blackpool South will know that insolvency practitioners are very qualified individuals—usually accountants or insolvency specialists. Practitioners with experience in FE and education do exist; I met one only a few days ago who happens to work for the Skills Funding Agency, to talk through these very issues. However, we must make it clear that according to the laws of insolvency, only insolvency practitioners can legally act as office holders in insolvency proceedings—liquidators, administrators and administrative receivers of companies. They are regulated through the Insolvency Act 1986.
The key qualification of the insolvency practitioner to deal with an insolvent college is their expertise with respect to a business or non-profit-making organisation that is insolvent. There are special administrative regimes in other areas such as utilities and the postal service. In addition, they can draw on the knowledge of the governors and staff at the college, and the wider sector. As I said in a previous debate, it is possible—it is most likely—that the insolvent college will have undergone a period of intervention before becoming insolvent, so the education administrator will also be able to consult the Further Education Commissioner. I repeat—I want it to be clear—that we would expect, in an appropriate case, the Education Minister to liaise with the FE Commissioner.
It has also been said that it is inconceivable that the education administrator would take decisions on how to meet the special objective without first having conversations with the range of key stakeholders. Mention has been made of Mr Harris’s evidence to the Committee. He said:
“From an insolvency practitioner’s perspective, it is worth standing back and recognising that insolvency practitioners are not train drivers, or people who spend their life in the railway or the London Underground, when it comes to a special administration regime, nor are they specialist property developers. They come to each situation afresh. One comforting thing that insolvency practitioners bring is recognising when they need to keep in place the existing management structure in a corporate sense, or the workforce in a pastoral sense, recognising that those people have skills and qualifications that they as an office holder do not necessarily have, and also recognising that they can bring outside specialist help to continuing the duties of education administrator, should the need arise. That is all part and parcel of any trading insolvency regime, and I would imagine that any office holder stepping into the role of an education administrator would have that at the forefront of their mind. I do not think it presents a unique challenge; it is very similar to all the other special administration roles. There is an extra dynamic—there is a pastoral element.”––[Official Report, Technical and Further Education Public Bill Committee, 22 November 2016; c. 46, Q60.]
Of course, as Stephen Harris pointed out, when an institution is insolvent, there is a critical need for someone who understands and can deploy the tools necessary to ensure that the education administration is properly managed. Given what I have told the Committee, we expect that that is exactly how the education administrator will operate. Many insolvency practitioners come from big companies that have huge amounts of expertise in a range of fields, including education. The leadership team of the FE body would be in place to provide support on the day-to-day running of the college and information to assist the education administrator in his task of achieving the special objective. So would the Further Education Commissioner and Sixth Form College Commissioner and their teams, and officials in the Department for Education. That is how the interaction between the various bodies highlighted by the hon. Gentleman works.
Of course, the education administrator will be free to seek advice from any other source, but I think that introducing unnecessary requirements as to the appointment of an education administrator would limit the pool of insolvency practitioners from which we could draw, in the event that we needed to use the special administrative regime.
Mr Jayawardena
The Minister is making a very important point. Does he agree that the arguments the hon. Member for Blackpool South outlined earlier about the complexity of such insolvency regimes and the unwinding, possibly, of certain troubles that FE colleges might get into—on rare occasions, as the Minister said—is actually the reason why it is important that insolvency practitioners are the people appointed to deal with these situations, because they are aware of how to deal with these complexities?
Robert Halfon
My hon. Friend is exactly right, but the crucial thing—I must mention this at almost every opportunity—is that it is unlike when I have seen receivers come in in my constituency who just care about the creditors. If I may just speak personally for a moment, I remember being in a hotel with the staff, some of whom lived on the premises, and the receiver literally said they had to leave on that day, when they had lived there for a long time. This situation is completely different. The whole purpose of this measure is that that kind of individual will not be involved. There will be somebody who has to fulfil the special objective of protecting the students.
Gordon Marsden
I accept that, and for the avoidance of any doubt, and with respect to what the hon. Member for North East Hampshire has just said, I did not at any stage query the fact that it would need to be an insolvency practitioner. The Minister is saying some reassuring things. The only point I would gently make to him is that there is a difference between saying that someone has to acquire a set of skills that might be tested by some mechanism or other, and having a sense of—I think Stephen Harris talked about a “pastoral element”; perhaps I would have said “empathy”, which is possibly the same thing. I am sure that aspect has given the AOC some pause for thought, because I do not know—perhaps the Minister does—how many insolvency experts have the admirable background of the gentleman he met.
Robert Halfon
The gentleman I met has a direct background, but as Stephen Harris said, that is not necessarily a requirement. However, it is inconceivable that the individuals involved will not have access or that they will not be working with all the relevant institutions. Having said that, they have to be first and foremost an insolvency practitioner, according to the law, but with the special objective.
Given that, I hope that the hon. Gentleman is more reassured and will agree to withdraw the amendment.
Gordon Marsden
We have had a helpful exchange and it has been useful to probe on this issue and in particular the relationship with the Education Funding Agency. The one point the Minister has not answered—I do not ask him to come back on it now, but it would be useful if he produced a note—is the point that I raised about the different measures of financial performance.
Robert Halfon
If the hon. Gentleman is happy for me to do that, I will. We will always require different information to test different issues, for different institution types or in different circumstances. There is a continuous improvement process for the systems and processes for identifying financial risk. The whole function of the area review process is to use it, where relevant, to review the financial management processes. I hope that answers his question some way.
Gordon Marsden
I am not entirely sure that it does, but I will not pursue the matter. However, these are technical issues and ones that I am sure the AOC and others may wish to take up with the Minister in a less formal capacity.
I am reassured by what the Minister has said today so far. The organisations may wish to probe further on some of the details, but I am happy to beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 15 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 16 to 21 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 22
General functions of education administrator
Gordon Marsden
I beg to move amendment 3, in clause 22, page 10, line 6, leave out “for the” and insert “with the primary”.
This amendment would ensure that the primary concern of the education administrator is the special education administration objective, that is minimising disruption to learners.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 4, in clause 22, page 10, line 7, leave out “(if possible)”.
This amendment would ensure that the primary concern of the education administrator is the special education administration objective, that is minimising disruption to learners.
Gordon Marsden
The amendments are again intended to probe the primary concern of the education administrator. They are relatively terse because they remove particular references and lines. Before I comment on them, I will make the point about why we are concerned and then talk about the broader issues.
Amendment 3 expresses our belief that it is important to say that the education administration objective is the primary purpose. The Minister has given strong indications, notwithstanding the nature of the education administrator’s position and background, but we think it is important to say that the primary concern should be the special education administration objective, minimising disruption to learners.
With regard to amendment 4, I have sat on a number of Delegated Legislation Committees and, to be honest, I do not think I have ever seen such a meandering and imprecise phrase in brackets as “if possible”. That could cover a multitude of sins. That is not the sort of draftsmanship that one normally expects to see in a Bill of this nature, and that, too, makes us concerned to ensure that the education administration objective is the primary concern.
This is not just an issue that concerns us. The Association of School and College Leaders raised a number of questions about the education administrator in its written evidence to the Committee. It states:
“The proposed mechanism itself gives rise to numerous concerns and uncertainties.”
It refers to the powers that have been transferred to the education administrator, such as whether he or she can
“dissolve a corporation established by Act of Parliament”.
We may touch on some of those points later. It goes on to raise the issue we discussed earlier with amendment 34 about the licensed insolvency practitioner. It also asks
“what lines of responsibility there would be during that period over matters such as safeguarding. If that were found to be inadequate, who would then have oversight…?”
Would that be the education administrator? If so, what would the implications be for the college in question?
The Government’s own consultation response document raised issues surrounding the need for further protection of learners. The House of Commons Library briefing reports:
“Of particular interest to respondents was the proposed introduction of the SAR, and the special objective that would require the education administrator to avoid or minimise disruption of the studies of the existing students, and ensure that it became unnecessary for the FE body to remain in education administration for that purpose. Although many respondents were supportive of the need and ‘ambition’ for the special objective, almost two-thirds questioned whether it sufficiently reflected the needs of learners and creditors.”
I assume that means the issue that the Minister and I have been discussing about where the balance is between those two separate processes. For example, the Association of Teachers and Lecturers stated in its response that the proposed SAR, in focusing on students as consumers, did not recognise
“the individual and societal benefits of further education”
or
“the instability and disruption to learners and their studies that they will inevitably experience as a result of their college going into administration.”
The Minister may disagree with those assessments, but they shine a light on the concerns among people who teach in colleges of this nature, so they are germane to the amendments that we have tabled.
Last week’s evidence session with the banks was particularly concerning in relation to the lack of information on finances and their ability to lend in future—hence some of the questions I asked.
Mr Jayawardena
I respect the point that the hon. Gentleman is making, but he mentioned, in reference to subsection (2), a lack of clarity. Is it not true that the objective of education administration is set out very clearly in clause 14? It sets out that learners come first, ensuring that it becomes unnecessary wherever possible for the body to remain in education administration. However, on even rarer occasions it might be necessary for people to act in a different way in order to put learners first. That is what the Bill is trying to achieve.
Gordon Marsden
I know that is what the Bill is trying to achieve; the question that we are here to decide is whether the Bill, as drafted, actually achieves that. I do not want to trade clauses with the hon. Gentleman, so I will only say, as I have observed previously, that clauses 14 and 22, although they deal with different aspects of the functions of the education administrator, are somewhat ambiguous in that respect. I will not take up the Committee’s time, but I refer the hon. Gentleman to the explanatory notes to both clauses. He will see that there is some tension there, which is why we are probing in the way that we are.
We must take into account the pressures that the administrator will face. It was particularly interesting to hear what Richard Meddelton from Lloyds said. As we know, Lloyds is an extremely important player in the college funding world. He said:
“As a lender, the ranking—again, it is unclear at the moment—may well sit behind a creditor. In addition, as we interpret it, even as a secured creditor the security could be transferred into a separate entity.”––[Official Report, Technical and Further Education Public Bill Committee, 22 November 2016; c. 41-42, Q48.]
Richard Robinson said:
“The issue is that it does not specify where that ranking lies. That, for us, is very important. Although it could rank at the back, it could also rank ahead of us.”––[Official Report, Technical and Further Education Public Bill Committee, 22 November 2016; c. 48, Q65.]
Gordon Marsden
If the hon. Gentleman will allow me to finish the quotation, I will happily let him intervene.
Richard Meddelton went on to say that
“under the current system if we have security, we have priority. The reality is that we have viewed it as quasi-Government because in the past—obviously the past is no prediction of the future—that money has been forthcoming”.––[Official Report, Technical and Further Education Public Bill Committee, 22 November 2016; c. 42, Q49.]
The banks have concerns about how the insolvency framework will work for them in financial terms. That will inevitably affect what the education administrator can do to fulfil the broader function that the Minister made.
Mr Jayawardena
I thank the hon. Gentleman for reminding us of the evidence we heard. Again, as we are discussing Lloyds, I refer Members to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. Did Lloyds not also say, though, that at the moment they are not necessarily able to say that they would protect learners first, so in that respect this is a good thing for learners? However, the other banks, particularly Santander, said that the certainty would allow them to lend more. One bank does not necessarily speak for all.
Gordon Marsden
I accept that. I would only observe that Lloyds, as we know, is a particularly large and extremely important lender to colleges.
To sum up, although I will refer to these issues in relation to future amendments, we want to hear more detail on them from the Minister. On that point, I will conclude my remarks.
Ordered, That the debate be now adjourned.—(David Evennett.)
Technical and Further Education Bill (Eighth sitting)
Thursday 1st December 2016
(7 years, 11 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Technical and Further Education Act 2017 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 1 December 2016 - (1 Dec 2016)
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 5 / Noes: 8 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Chair
I remind the Committee that with this we are discussing amendment 4, in clause 22, page 10, line 7, leave out “(if possible)”.
This amendment would ensure that the primary concern of the education administrator is the special education administration objective, that is minimising disruption to learners.
The Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills (Robert Halfon)
I will answer one or two of the questions asked by the hon. Member for Blackpool South. If I understood correctly, he was asking about safeguarding. I assure him that the statutory obligations that apply to colleges will transfer to the special administrator during the special administration period.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned one bank. To clarify, the chap from Santander, Gareth Jones, told the Committee in evidence:
“On the Bill and the proposed insolvency regime, we are actually supportive of the clarity that they provide.”
He also said that
“we are still…looking to grow our exposure to the sector and grow our lending book.”––[Official Report, Technical and Further Education Public Bill Committee, 22 November 2016; c. 38, Q41.]
Later, he said:
“From a risk perspective, when we assess the underlying risk of a transaction, there has always been that uncertainty and we have had to make assumptions in the background. If the Bill is passed, the certainty it will provide is positive for us.”––[Official Report, Technical and Further Education Public Bill Committee, 22 November 2016; c. 41, Q46.]
Different banks have different views on the issue.
Clause 5 and schedule 3 allow the education administrator to dissolve a statutory corporation if no property is left for the creditors’ book, which will usually be after students have had benefit protections from the special objective. The hon. Gentleman will know that there is a special provision in the Bill to protect students with special educational needs, which is important. The education administrator is additionally bound by the duties that apply to the college in relation to SEN students. There is no protection at the moment—nothing.
Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)
This relates to the point we discussed earlier. It is not so much about cost as about distance. The Minister said earlier that the provisions currently allow students to transfer on the basis of up to 75 minutes’ travel time. This cannot be included in the Bill—we are all planning for the worst and hoping for the best—but it should be taken into account that if, for the sake of argument, a college with a significant number of SEN students goes insolvent, it might be possible to ensure that any transport provided is disability friendly. If a college with a relatively small number of SEN students goes insolvent and those students have to travel a fairly long way, it would create additional difficulties. I am not asking for anything to be put in the Bill, but I ask him to take that into account in the guidance notes.
Robert Halfon
I will reflect on that important point, but the Bill makes it clear that the administrator has to protect not only students, but special needs students. The administrator will be under the same obligations as the college in relation to the Equality Act 2010. That is an important part of the Bill.
My hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire said that clause 14 is one of the most important in the Bill. Clause 22 is equally important, and it should be considered not in isolation, but in conjunction with clause 14. It is the backbone of the special administrative regime and distinguishes it from ordinary administrative processes. While clause 14 enshrines the overriding purpose of the special administrative regime—the protection of students through the special objective—clause 22 gives the education administrator the power to manage the FE body’s affairs, business and property, and it places a requirement on the education administrator to carry out their functions for the purpose of achieving that objective.
Clause 14 makes it clear that student protection is the primary purpose of the special administrative regime. Reading clauses 14 and 22 together makes it clear that the education administrator’s primary purpose is to achieve the special objective. I hope that explanation reassures the hon. Member for Blackpool South and that he will agree to withdraw the amendment.
Gordon Marsden
I am grateful for the Minister’s remarks and for our short exchange on the situation for SEN students. I am particularly grateful to him for emphasising the relationship between clauses 14 and 22. It is important that he has stated in Committee the primary purpose of the education administrator; if in future there are any doubts or concerns about the interpretation of the clause, that will be an important point. I thank him for his response and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Gordon Marsden
I beg to move amendment 5, in clause 22, page 10, line 7, at end insert—
“(2A) The education administrator may, in performing his or her functions for the purpose of achieving the objective of the education administration, request information, advice or guidance from practitioners with an understanding of education regarding the management of a further education body.”.
This amendment would allow an education administrator who, under the eligibility outlined in clause 15, might not necessarily be an education specialist to supplement his or her knowledge.
The amendment pursues an issue that we have already discussed, but in the context of the experience or knowledge of higher education that the education administrator will need. The Minister and I had a useful exchange about the capacity of the education administrator to reach out, either within an organisation or peripherally to it. The amendment would allow an education administrator who meets the eligibility guidelines outlined in clause 15, but might not necessarily be an education specialist, to supplement his or her knowledge.
Our friends in the National Union of Students were particularly anxious for the amendment to be tabled, and we have taken their points on board. As the Minister will know, the NUS has welcomed the provisions that relate to insolvency, but it, too, is nervous—well, “nervous” is perhaps the wrong word, but it is certainly concerned. It believes that the process should be underlined as strongly as possible and that, in the twists and turns of what will inevitably be a fraught and taut process for all concerned, the administrator should be able to take further advice, even if he or she has some past experience. The amendment would make it clear that the educational administrator may seek that advice.
The Bill does not require the person appointed to deal with the college’s insolvency to know anything about colleges or the FE sector; under clause 15, they need only be an insolvency practitioner. We do not dissent from that, because we have already had a conversation about it and we are entirely reassured by the points that the Minister has made. However, the education administrator will have substantial powers over the future of an education body and its students, and indeed over the education body’s management, as clause 22(1) sets out.
Bearing in mind that the period of time for which they might have to manage the FE body’s affairs will be somewhat elastic, it would seem sensible to ensure that the administrator can get advice from people who actually know how to run an FE body. Better still, obviously, would be to have an administrator who was either very close to or within the FE sector. That was the intention behind amendment 34. After all, the Bill is designed to recognise that context, which is why it includes the education objective and entitles learners to continue their studies. Amendment 5 would just ensure that the Bill makes that provision and allows the education administrator access to whatever information and advice they may need to fulfil their duties. I am sure that the Minister wishes that to be the case. We suggest that it is a fairly obvious point—the Association of Colleges and the NUS think so—but it is not obvious in the Bill currently.
Without straying beyond the narrow lines of the amendment, I merely say to the Minister that there are many options for practitioners who could be called upon with an understanding of further education management. That could include chairmen or governors of FE bodies, former FE commissioners, or perhaps even retired people from those areas or from awarding bodies. Will the Minister give us some further details about whom he imagines an education administrator might wish to consult? Whatever avenue he wants to go down to assure us in that respect, it is important that the administrator has the advice of experts to make the correct call.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
I will be very brief. I support my hon. Friend. One of the problems for the FE sector and, even more, for sixth-form colleges is that the whole sector has been bedevilled by decisions being made by people who are unfamiliar with those sectors. Many people involved in politics have come through a school or university environment; they have not been through further education. Many areas do not have sixth-form colleges, so people are not quite sure what they are. It is important that we have people with knowledge of the sector—educationally and organisationally —to make judgments on these matters. I just wanted to support my hon. Friend with those few words.
Robert Halfon
I appreciate the amendment. I raised these issues in the previous sitting. I go back to the quotation from Stephen Harris, the insolvency expert, who said that
“it is worth standing back and recognising that insolvency practitioners are not train drivers, or people who spend their life in the railway or the London Underground”––[Official Report, Technical and Further Education Bill Public Bill Committee, 22 November 2016; c. 46, Q60.]
Those people are expert insolvency practitioners, but many have some kind of educational link or work for a company that has a good link with and expertise in education.
It would be inconceivable that any education administrator would not consult—I strongly expect them to—key stakeholders, particularly the FE commissioner, student bodies, governors, parents and any relevant sponsor or other stakeholder involved with an insolvent college. That is expected as a matter of course, but I will reflect on what the hon. Member for Blackpool South said. On those grounds, I hope that he is happy to withdraw the amendment.
Gordon Marsden
I have heard what the Minister has said and I will be happy to withdraw the amendment. I have just one observation at this stage, as we have had two or three conversations on these sorts of issues. He said he would reflect on the matter. He might want to reflect on whether it would be useful, for the assistance of all the bodies concerned, if at some point—ideally while the Bill is still in the House of Commons—we were to have broader guidance notes on some of the issues that we have raised today. It would therefore all be in one place from which those bodies could take comfort and reassurance. Having said that, I am more than happy to beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Gordon Marsden
I beg to move amendment 6, in clause 22, page 10, line 10, leave out “have special educational needs” and insert—
“(a) have special educational needs;
(b) are care leavers;
(c) are parents;
(d) are carers, carers of children, or young carers, as defined by the Care Act 2014; and,
(e) have other particular needs that may be determined by the appropriate national authority.”
This amendment would make provisions for the particular needs of additional groups of existing students to be considered by an education administrator in pursuing the objective of an education administration.
Having touched on the issues of special needs, we want to probe a little further and more broadly beyond what has been said. The Minister has already given strong assurances on the general issue of special educational needs, but he will be aware of particular circumstances affecting some categories of people who take the big step, given their experiences, of engaging with further education. I am sure that everyone would agree that we do not want those groups of people, in particular, to be disadvantaged, and we certainly do not want them to suffer more disadvantage than students ordinarily would in the circumstances.
I accept that lists can be invidious, but we feel that care leavers, parents, and
“carers, carers of children, or young carers, as defined by the Care Act 2014”
are three groups that may be particularly vulnerable to disruption in their studies, as we have discussed. The amendment is designed to signal to the administrator the importance of taking those groups into account.
Kelvin Hopkins
Earlier my hon. Friend made a point about distance of travel. Groups such as parents and those with caring responsibilities will definitely be affected by travel over longer distances. I am sure that he has that in mind.
Gordon Marsden
My hon. Friend is right. He has read not only my mind, but my postbag. Only half an hour before coming here I received an email from Unison, which raised some of those issues with respect to its members who fit into one or two of the categories in question. It made precisely that point about distance, which I was anxious to make in my exchange with the Minister about the education maintenance allowance. It was not simply about cost; it was also about time.
Tracy Brabin (Batley and Spen) (Lab)
I have spent time with care leavers and foster families in Kirklees, and they are an incredibly vulnerable group of people with a lot of chaos in their lives. They are five times less likely to get five good GCSEs and eight times more likely to be excluded from school, and obviously they are less likely to go to university or, we assume, start an apprenticeship. They need extra support, and so do their families. Certainly, when they are moved around, which sometimes happens, they need extra support with transport and so on.
Gordon Marsden
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for underlining that point and giving that practical example of a personal issue. Perhaps I can be forgiven for mentioning that the shadow Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner), has herself strongly expressed how crucial further education was to her during her teens. She said on Second Reading that she would not have been there to present our view on the Bill had she not had that experience, when she was in that vulnerable situation as a teenager.
There are groups of people who must particularly be thought about in this context. We discussed care leavers on another occasion, and the difficulties that many of them face, but it seems particularly appropriate to discuss them again in the context of the amendment. In their apprenticeship funding proposals last month, the Government recognised that apprentices aged 19 to 24 who had previously been in care, or who had had a local authority education, health and care plan, might need extra support. The majority of respondents to their survey supported that—more than twice as many providers agreed with the proposal than disagreed. The Government have pledged in the proposals to give extra funding to employers who take on someone who was previously in care or had a local authority education, health and care plan. We applaud that as a good start, but it is important to think about legislating further and to guarantee that other necessary steps are taken to ensure that access and opportunity are available to care leavers.
Looked-after children often achieve less highly at GCSE, as my hon. Friends have noted, partly because they may have a chaotic family background or a history of abuse. The Special Educational Consortium stated in written evidence that young people who have a care plan at age 15 are more than twice as likely not to be in education, employment or training at 18. Barnardo’s said:
“These young people often leave school with few or no qualifications and need alternative options outside of the school environment if they are to achieve their potential. Some need provision that allows them to catch up on what they have missed. These young people also often want the option of practical-based learning that clearly links to a real job.”
While we are on the subject of care leavers, how does the Minister envisage the proposals to support apprentices, and the proposals that we would like to see taken on board more generally in respect of care leavers, linking up with the work done in the children’s services section of the Department for Education? In particular, what discussions has he had about the Bill with his hon. Friend the Minister for Vulnerable Children and Families, the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Edward Timpson), or his officials? I have credited him before for the assiduousness with which that part of the Department introduced the responsibility up to the age of 25.
The amendment also includes parents and carers, who for numerous reasons might be particularly affected by changes to their study arrangements. They may have particular arrangements for their children or dependants that might not be addressed by simply transferring them to another college. What happens if the college to which they are transferred is not as near to their children’s school? What if the new institution’s timetabling disrupts routines for those they care for, or their ability to be there for their children? What if potential increases in travel costs negatively affect the carefully planned budgets of those with caring responsibilities, affecting both their access to education and the care that they can provide to their own children and loved ones?
There will be others with particular needs, which is why the amendment has flexibility built into it to accommodate them. For all those reasons, the education administrator’s decisions must be carefully thought through, so we feel that it is important to require the administrator to do so. I know that there is a school of thought that says any decent education administrator, given the background, qualifications, empathy and pastoral issues to which the Minister referred, would do so, but I do not think that it reflects doubt about the good intentions of particular people in particular circumstances to say that they might be beset by a series of difficult decisions and priorities, probably within a relatively constrained period of time. It does not indicate that people would not think about the groups concerned. It is important in that pressurised situation that they are reminded of the importance of those particular groups. That is the basis on which we have brought forward the amendment.
As my hon. Friends have said, those groups already face challenges and barriers to education that it can be difficult for others even to imagine. I can imagine some of it. That is not from the perspective of being a teacher or tutor in further education, but from my perspective of having been a part-time course tutor with the Open University for nearly 20 years. I do not think I had many care leavers, but I certainly had people who were carers and who came into other distinct categories. I marvelled at the determination with which they took forward their studies under some trying and difficult circumstances. I believe that our proposal is the right thing to do, and I would welcome the Minister’s thoughts on whether the Bill needs to say rather more about the particular needs of these groups of students.
Robert Halfon
I am going to do the opposite to the hon. Gentleman: I will talk about the broad thrust and then answer the specific issues. I thank him again for his thoughtful contribution. I have already explained that we are introducing protection for students in the unlikely event that their college or provider becomes insolvent. The special objective will require the education administrator to take action to avoid or minimise disruption to their studies, by whatever means they consider appropriate.
However, the Government recognise that the education administrator might find it harder to find, or will need to think more carefully about, suitable alternative provision for those students with special educational needs, compared with the general student body. We do not want those students to be disproportionately affected by the exceptional event of college or provider insolvency, which is why we have placed a requirement on the education administrator —set out in clause 22(3)—to have particular regard to their needs.
We have had a lot of preliminary discussions about SEN students, because two thirds of care leavers are SEN students. We included provision for SEN in the Bill because of the particular difficulties such students face. There might be the need for specialist equipment or adaptations to teaching, or there might be a transport issue, and it is a requirement that the education administrator considers those in developing their proposals.
Robert Halfon
I will answer the hon. Gentleman’s points. If he wants to raise a different point, I am happy to answer it, but I ask him to have faith in me. I have tried to answer questions as much as I can all the way through.
The Chair
Order. I would be grateful if Members confined themselves to the established procedures for interventions, rather than carrying out conversations.
Robert Halfon
I need to set this important issue in context. We already make good special provision available for post-16 education. Care leavers are a priority group for access to the vulnerable student bursary, which provides financial assistance. Care leavers receive yearly bursaries of up to £1,200—it is pro rata for part-timers. As care leavers, their eligibility for that support will not change, even if they are transferred to another provider as part of a college insolvency.
Alongside the vulnerable student bursary is the 16 to 19 bursary fund, which I discussed earlier. It is a discretionary fund targeted at young people and allocated to schools, colleges and training providers, which make awards to students. It is up to the college to define eligibility criteria, because it will know the needs of its students best. It is targeted support at a local level.
I am pleased to say that the Government have changed the law to improve how young carers and their families are identified and supported. For the first time, young carers have the right to an assessment of their need, no matter who they care for, the type of care they provide or how often they provide it. The assessment will consider their educational needs and will not be affected in the scenario where the student has to transfer college providers.
In answer to the specific question about care leavers, as the hon. Member for Blackpool South has pointed out, at this stage we have not included the requirement for the education administrator to take account of the needs of care leavers. As I have said, it is an issue that I will reflect on seriously.
Gordon Marsden
The Minister has been very helpful, and I appreciate that, but before he concludes, I have a definitional question that I think relates to what he has been saying. Subsection (7) refers to “special educational provision” and subsection (6) refers to a student with “special educational needs”. I have heard everything he has said about young carers, but is it his understanding that young carers or care leavers would automatically come under those categories? I know this is a narrow point, but it is quite important, because it influences whether further definition is necessary in the Bill.
Robert Halfon
No. It applies only to what is classed in statutory terms as an SEN student. That is why I have acknowledged that college insolvency is disruptive, especially to SEN students and care leavers. By the way, I should say that it was very gracious of the hon. Gentleman to mention the apprentice funding to make sure that care leavers are employed as apprentices, which is something I care deeply about. I am glad that he acknowledged that funding.
I want more time to reflect on what more might be done in the context of a college insolvency, to ensure that the Government live up to their promise of being an effective corporate parent. I will reflect on that.
Gordon Marsden
I am grateful to the Minister for that and for his promise to reflect on this issue and on the catch-alls in the clause as drafted. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Gordon Marsden
Briefly, we have had some useful exchanges on the amendments, which I have been content to withdraw. I am broadly very pleased and satisfied with the points the Minister has made.
However, as I have said before, if this process—the Bill, the new institute, the new insolvency clauses—is to be a success, it is incumbent upon us to take as large a group of people from across the stakeholders with us as possible. I want to refer to a couple of issues that the Association of School and College Leaders and the Association of Employment and Learning Providers have raised in their written evidence. As the Minister knows, the ASCL in particular is quite critical of part 2 of the Bill because it thinks it is the result of rushed consultation. That is for others to judge, but the point it makes in its written evidence, which I would like a response to, is this:
“FE and sixth form colleges were created as exempt charities by Act of Parliament… As such college corporations cannot resolve to remove their charitable status. ASCL…is concerned that applying aspects of the Insolvency Act that applies to companies runs the risk of jeopardising that status. The Charities Commission does not appear on the list of those consulted…The primary duty of a corporation/governing body is to maintain the solvency of its college. Where it fails in that duty by negligence or worse, the Charities Commission has the power to investigate and bar governors/trustees from further service.”
If the Minister is able to, I would ask him to address that issue from the ASCL.
The AELP makes another point about the status of colleges. It believes that
“this reclassification should be reviewed by the ONS. This is not merely a technical point. Some colleges have reportedly used their current ‘independent’ status to resist Area Review proposals which is well within their right. However, when AELP has argued that the Government is using a form of state aid to assist colleges…we have been told by the SFA that colleges are ‘community assets’ which justifies the further injection of public funding. The insolvency measures in this Bill would…appear to place colleges very much back in the public sector.”
It says that this has become a “murky area”.
Those are two specific observations from two important stakeholders in the area. In the context of the clause, given everything else that we have been talking about in terms of the general function of the educational administrator, I would be grateful if the Minister would comment on those points.
Robert Halfon
I will give a brief response. The Charity Commission does not appear in the list of respondents because it did not submit a formal written response. However, we worked very closely with it during the development of the proposals in the Bill.
Charities that are companies and charitable incorporated organisations are all covered by insolvency legislation, and the Company Directors Disqualification Act 1986 regime for disqualification applies to those organisations. The Charity Commission has been fully supportive of the approach that we have taken and sees it as being in line with the approach taken for trustees of charitable companies and charitable incorporated organisations.
With regard to the AELP, the process of implementing a SAR would not automatically mean reclassification for an individual college, let alone the entire sector, because the Government would not be directly influencing the college’s corporate policy.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 22 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 23
Transfer schemes
Gordon Marsden
I beg to move amendment 7, in clause 23, page 10, line 31, at end insert—
“(2) The education administrator may not transfer assets of any further education body to a private company where he or she considers that more than half of the funding of the acquisition of the asset came from public funds.”.
This amendment would ensure further education bodies with a track record of accruing assets publicly, could not be transferred to a private company.
We come to an amendment that is longer than the clause it seeks to amend. That might suggest that the amendment is otiose, but I do not think it is; I think the clause ought to have been expanded a little more— but then I would say that. I want to focus some attention, at a certain length, on this issue. On our side of the Committee, that raises some really big issues about what would happen to the transfer of assets from a further education body to a private company.
Information produced by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills on the dissolution of an FE corporation specified that assets should be transferred only to charitable bodies:
“The Secretary of State and the CESF are concerned with the appropriate use of those capital assets that have been acquired/developed/redeveloped with public funding and the conditions for their transfer and usage…FE corporations are advised to undertake early discussions with the Skills Funding Agency to identify the relevant assets and any potential repayment of some, or all of the associated grant or proceeds of sale…The regulations include a requirement that the FE Corporation publish the proposed arrangements for the transfer of the property, rights and liabilities of the FE Corporation…The Dissolution of Further Education Corporations and Sixth Form Colleges Corporations (Prescribed Bodies) Regulations 2012”—
that would have been an interesting secondary legislation Committee to sit on—
“lists the bodies to which an FE Corporation can transfer its property rights and liabilities upon its dissolution. It is expected that all transfers should be made to charitable bodies, and for the purpose of education.”
It is on that point that I want to focus my remarks on the amendment. The document continues:
“Where the bodies are not charities then it must be transferred in accordance with the charitable purposes of the trust.”
It then links to a whole list of prescribed bodies to which assets could be transferred, including sixth-form colleges and governing bodies.
The point I start from is that to say it is “expected” that all transfers should be made to charitable bodies is not the same as saying it is “required”.
Kelvin Hopkins
My hon. Friend makes a good point. Is the stronger case not that such properties should be transferred back to local authorities? That is where the property came from in the first place.
Gordon Marsden
My hon. Friend makes an interesting point, and possibly opens up a new area for policy discussion in certain political parties. The reality of the situation is that in practical terms most local authorities would struggle to take on those responsibilities at the moment, but he is absolutely right to make the point—I will expand on it—on the genesis of the assets.
Given the genesis of those assets and their development over the years, we need to look with extraordinary care at any circumstances in which they might go into the private sector. Incidentally, that does not necessarily mean that we are saying that the bona fides of the private sector potential acquirers are bad. We simply recognise the fact that it would be the transfer of something that is largely of public value into the private sector without taking any account of the genesis and development.
I want to explain why I think this issue is so important. When colleges were incorporated in 1992, it took them formally outside the aegis of local authorities, as my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North said, but we have to take into account that that asset base of building in many cases was built up with local authority support and funding over a 20 or 30-year period.
The Minister has visited my local college, Blackpool and The Fylde College. I think he went to the Bispham campus, which is right at the other end of town and not in my constituency. When he arrived, the Bispham campus no doubt looked nice and shiny and new, but it did incorporate—I am not sure how much it still incorporates—buildings and elements that go right back to the 1950s and 1960s. Indeed, when the Building Colleges for the Future process was taking place in the 2000s, that was one of the arguments for demolishing that building and relocating it in the centre of town. It did not happen for a variety of reasons. At the time I was rather annoyed that it did not happen, but nevertheless I am just illustrating the point that many of the buildings that we are talking about have accreted their estate either on an active financial basis or by the ceding of lands by local authorities and other organisations.
Apart from that, over the years since then large sums of public money have often gone directly to support and build the estates of FE colleges. In the 2000s, the then Labour Government brought forward the major programme of Building Colleges for the Future. Despite the fact that the programme was curtailed and certain places, including my own, missed out on the final stages, it was a commitment of literally hundreds of millions of pounds—other Members in the House got their completely new college and everything that went with it—and that is without taking account of the other areas of non-private sector funding. Sometimes that was through very complex relationships that might involve lottery-associated bids. Sometimes it was through the significant sums of money put in under the old regional development agencies. As I know well, having shadowed the regional growth funds in my previous portfolio, sometimes it was through regional growth fund developments, and sometimes there are offshoots of European structural funds. It is important to remember all of that.
Kelvin Hopkins
I strongly support my hon. Friend’s case. This is something that I am alarmed about. The reality was that, at incorporation, hundreds of thousands of acres and hundreds of buildings were transferred without charge from the local authority and incorporated in bodies that still seemed to be essentially in the public sector and were still largely funded by it—sixth-form colleges are entirely funded by the public sector. The idea that they could be sold off to speculators for profit, with development value acquired and millions of pounds made, is completely unacceptable. If anyone ought to have that asset, it is the public sector: either local authorities or a central Government Department. If they so choose to sell land off, at an appropriate value—if it has planning permission for housing or whatever—that development value should accrue to the public purse as well.
I have some experience and, as always, knowledge of what has been happening recently. Indeed, one college had a large area of land associated with it that had been a sports field that was still used for sports but was also a local leisure amenity. The principal wanted to sell that land off for housing development, making a vast amount of profit, and the implication was that he might have benefited personally. He was known to be assiduous in making sure his pocket was well filled. I think he managed to pay himself the highest salary of any college principal in the country even though his was not one of the largest colleges. Be that as it may, he eventually left in some disgrace and the college is now recovering, but selling off land for personal profit was a temptation that clearly affected him.
The principal was also building an academy chain by getting schools to become academies and then trying to get them into his ambit. It is interesting that two of the schools had land attached, and when, some way through the deal, it was decided that he could have the schools but not the associated land, he lost interest in getting them into his academy chain. It was clear that he was interested in the land associated with those schools, not in the education of the children, the success of schools or whatever. When big money is involved, college principals and others involved in college life can be tempted by the prospect of substantial personal financial gain. That has to be guarded against, and the way we do that is by ensuring that the assets stay in the public sector and that any benefit, financial or otherwise, accrues to the public sector.
The amendment therefore goes some way towards what I would like to see, and I will certainly support it should my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South press it to a vote, but I think we ought to go further and ensure that those kinds of practices cannot happen. We are talking about public assets, built up by the public sector over decades, if not scores of years or generations, and to see them simply handed over to private speculators without any benefit to the public sector is absolutely unacceptable.
We have to separate out capital assets from revenue costs. Revenue costs become too great if students disappear or the college is not being run efficiently and so on. We can deal with that. Capital assets, on the other hand, should be treated as precious and retained for the public sector and for public benefit; they should not be for the benefit of property speculators who could make millions, if not billions, out of such assets across the country, if allowed to do so.
With those few words, I express my strong support for the amendment. I hope that at some point the Government will recognise this issue so that we can go further and make the principles behind the amendment even stronger in legislation, whether in this Bill or in others.
Robert Halfon
I thank the Opposition for the amendment and the hon. Member for Luton North for his contribution. I will make a couple of general points before I go on to the specifics.
As has been observed, and I repeat, without the Bill there is no protection for students or from the seizure of college assets. The hon. Gentleman talked about hundreds of millions in government funding, but the general point is that college insolvency is likely to be a very rare event, so the portion of government assets that might transfer to a private sector company is likely to be small. The priority, as I say, has to be protecting students. Such a transfer is right if the education administrator is fulfilling his special objective and believes that it protects the students if he has the ability to do so.
On solvent dissolution, assets must go to a charity that has educational purposes. In insolvency in a special administrative regime, transfers go to bodies prescribed in regulations, all educational, which can include private education providers, or, as the hon. Gentlemen will be pleased to know, local authorities. As the FE Minister, I always have colleagues coming to me with suggestions about how the local authority might be involved with the FE college.
The Bill is not about private providers; it is about statutory bodies and companies that run designated FE institutions—that is, designated by the Secretary of State. For independent training providers offering provision to those with advanced learner loans, there must be a register of training organisations, they must have at least satisfactory financial health, they must pass capacity and capability requirements, and they have to have evidence of, and a track record in, education and skills delivery.
To go back to the question asked by the hon. Member for Batley and Spen, transfer schemes are a feature of other special administrative regimes. They allow for assets to be transferred to another body without the agreement of a third party which would otherwise be necessary—for example, leases without the consent of the landlord. That means that the scheme can be used to prevent a third party from blocking a transfer that is intended to facilitate the achievement of the special objective. The special administration regime’s delivery of the public policy objective—in this case the protection of students—should not be subject to third-party agreement. The education administrator will use a transfer scheme only if that is necessary to achieve the special objective.
It is important to note that the Secretary of State must approve any such scheme before it is used. Even if the education administrator does not use a transfer scheme, it is open to the Secretary of State to challenge the administrator if he or she feels that the administrator is not performing his or her duty to protect students.
Kelvin Hopkins
A thought occurs to me. If charitable organisations were brought into play, would it not be possible for assets to remain publicly owned but be allocated to such organisations on a rental basis rather than an ownership basis?
Robert Halfon
We are looking at cases of insolvency. We have the protection of students at heart, but we also want to be fair to creditors. I am passionate about the Bill because I believe it assures the protection of students, but I acknowledge that we have to be fair to creditors as well, and I do not think that would be the case if we did what the hon. Gentleman suggests, although in an ideal world that would of course be a lovely thing to be able to do.
The FE body itself cannot be sold. It is a statutory body. If it is insolvent and must therefore close, the protection of students must come first; the sale of the asset would be to protect students first and creditors second.
Gordon Marsden
I am listening carefully to the Minister. He has just said that the FE body cannot be sold and the assets must be dealt with in the way that he has described. The problem is that this is not necessarily a question of the FE body being sold. For the sake of argument, to take the example that my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North used, there may be an asset with substantial land attached that was originally a public asset, and that could be disposed of as part and parcel of the process of trying to resolve an insolvency without that actually involving the dissolution of the FE body. I am not a lawyer, but it seems to me that there is nothing in principle to stop that happening. In those circumstances, a part-asset could be transferred that was not the whole of the FE body but perhaps represented tens of millions of pounds of value.
Robert Halfon
The assets currently are not publicly owned; they are owned by the FE body, which has significant operational independence, and are for the educational purposes of the FE body. Valuable land that is sold in the way that the hon. Gentleman describes has to be sold for the purpose of the special objective. I am involved at the moment in a case where an institution wants to sell for housing land that is, in my view, meant to be for FE use. He probably knows the case. We are clear that that land is for the educational purposes of the students. That is our belief.
I have covered most of the hon. Gentleman’s points. I would not be so down on private providers; there are examples of good private providers. Let us take the example of SEN students, whom we talked about earlier. It may be better for those students if the education administrator were able to transfer the students and facilities to a private body if that was the only one available. That would minimise the disruption to them, and their studies could continue uninterrupted at the same location. Sometimes, to have the private sector involved is a good thing, as long as private organisations, as I say, are properly inspected and registered and have a good record of education. I hope that I have been able to assure the hon. Gentleman that there will be no haemorrhaging of publicly funded assets to the private sector and he will agree to withdraw his amendment.
Gordon Marsden
The Minister has been characteristically courteous. If I were able to take his reassurance as the end of the matter, I would, but unfortunately it is not the end of the matter. I will make a few brief points.
The Minister says that the proportion of public assets that might be disposed of to the private sector in the event of a college insolvency as a total is very small, percentage-wise. We could trade figures on what that percentage might be, but none of us knows. The fact of the matter is that it is about the area where that happens and the impact there. A college that has tens of millions of pounds’ worth of assets built up in a particular area and is crucial to the local community may be basically forwarded on to a private provider.
I accept what the Minister said; we are not saying that all private providers are bad or are leeches, but that is not the issue at stake. The issue at stake is whether private providers should be allowed automatically to take on valuable assets that have been accrued via the public sector in the event of an insolvency. The Minister said himself that it is not about private providers, but he also said that transfers could include private education providers.
In terms of real-life events, private providers are well equipped normally with lawyers and accountants. Who will monitor the detail of this? Will it be a slightly harassed education administrator? Will it be officials in the Minister’s Department? I doubt it.
Kelvin Hopkins
As a member of a local authority many years ago, I saw the representatives of a town shopping centre—an asset that was owned by the council but rented on a long-term basis—who were skilled financial advisers, run rings around the local authority treasurers, who just could not cope with the power ranged against them. We have to be very careful, because when big money is involved, companies will get the best brains to ensure they win.
Gordon Marsden
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. If it were not for the track record of problems in the FE sector over the past three to four years that I have described, we might be more sanguine, but this is a really important principle that should be established on the face of the Bill. I am afraid that on this occasion, I will not withdraw the amendment and will press it to a vote.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Robert Halfon
I beg to move amendment 20, in schedule 3, page 33, line 4, leave out “and”.
This amendment and amendment 21 are intended to make it clear that, where the context requires, a reference to the director of a company in the insolvency legislation applied by Schedule 3 can be read as a reference to a person who is a member of the further education body or the principal of the relevant institution rather than both. The purpose of amendments 22 and 23, which relate to references to an officer of a company, is similar.
Robert Halfon
The amendments are minor and technical in nature, and are intended to address a minor drafting error relating to general modifications to the provisions of the Insolvency Act 1986 related to the special administrative regime. These general modifications are set out in a table in paragraph 2 of schedule 3. Schedule 3 applies to further education bodies that are statutory corporations. Paragraph 2 makes general modifications to the provisions of the Insolvency Act 1986 relating to administration to apply them to FE bodies in special administration.
The effect of the two modifications currently leads to uncertainty about which post the relevant person should hold or have held in order for the provision to apply to that person. The minor error we identified was that, in short, we have used “and” when we should have used “or”. In more detail, as drafted, the general modifications provide that “director” is to mean “(a) member…and (b) principal”. We want the director to be “(a) member…or (b) principal”, unless the context requires otherwise.
Similarly, as drafted, the modifications in the table provide that “officer” is to mean “(a) member…(b) clerk…(c) chief executive…and (d) any senior post holder”. We want “officer” to mean “(a) member…(b) clerk…(c) chief executive… or (d) any senior post holder”, unless the context requires otherwise. These are minor and technical amendments and I hope the Committee agrees to them.
I have always wanted to read an amendment like that. [Laughter.]
Amendment 20 agreed to.
Amendments made: 21, in schedule 3, page 33, line 6, at end insert “, or
(c) if the context requires, both of the above.”. |
See Member’s explanatory statement to amendment 20.
Amendment 22, in schedule 3, page 33, line 14, leave out “and”.
See Member’s explanatory statement to amendment 20.
Amendment 23, in schedule 3, page 33, line 17, at end insert “, or
(e) if the context requires, all of the above.”.—(Robert Halfon.) |
See Member’s explanatory statement to amendment 20.
Robert Halfon
I beg to move amendment 24, in schedule 3, page 36, line 10, leave out “(3)” and “insert “(4)”.
This amendment corrects a cross-reference.
Robert Halfon
We have been clear that although the purpose of the education administration is to avoid or minimise disruption to students’ studies, the special objective is not to be pursued without regard to the interests of creditors. Clause 22, which we have previously discussed, contains a requirement for the education administrator to carry out their functions to achieve the special objective and, so far as is consistent with the special objective, to do so in a way that achieves the best result for the FE body’s creditors as a whole.
If creditors, the Secretary of State or Welsh Ministers believe that the education administrator is not acting in accordance with this requirement, the amendment made by paragraph 21 of schedule 3 to paragraph 74 of schedule 1B to the Insolvency Act 1986 allows them to apply to the court claiming that the education administrator is not carrying out their functions in accordance with requirements set out in clause 22. However, there is an error in the cross-referencing. The reference should be to sections 22(2) and 22(4), not sections 22(2) and 22(3).
Without the amendment, creditors would be unable to challenge the way in which the education administrator was carrying out their functions, which is not what we intend. I hope the Committee agrees that the amendment is necessary for the provisions to function effectively, and that it will agree to accept it.
Amendment 24 agreed to
Amendment made: 25, in schedule 3, page 36, line 34, leave out “(3)” and “insert “(4)”.—(Robert Halfon.)
This amendment corrects a cross-reference.
Schedule 3, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 4
Conduct of education administration: companies
Robert Halfon
I beg to move amendment 26, in schedule 4, page 44, line 6, leave out “(4)” and “insert “(5)”.
This amendment corrects a cross-reference.
Robert Halfon
The amendments are the same in effect as amendments 24 and 25, which we have just made to schedule 3. You will be pleased to hear, Mr Bailey, that I do not propose to take the Committee through the changes again. I am sure that once was enough. It is necessary to make the amendment twice because schedule 3 relates to FE bodies, which are statutory corporations, and schedule 4 relates to those that are companies.
Amendment 26 agreed to.
Amendment made: 27, in schedule 4, page 44, line 32, leave out “(3)” and “insert “(5)”—(Robert Halfon.)
This amendment corrects a cross-reference.
Schedule 4, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 25 to 29 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 30
Education administration rules
Gordon Marsden
I rise to speak very briefly about this clause and clause 37, both of which I want to put in the context of the broad policy statement that we have been given on part 2 of the Bill, which is pertinent to many of the questions that we and people in the sector have been asking about the capacity of the DFE and the institute to expand the remit of the Bill. That is no less true in the context of the insolvency proceedings than it is in the remainder of the Bill.
Page 4 of the policy statement says that it has not been possible to prepare draft regulations during the passage of the Bill—I feel somewhat conflicted about this, because part of me is rather glad that we did not have to consider the regulations, which may, and I quote, run to hundreds of pages in total. Instead, the Government have prepared a series of detailed notes describing every delegated power and setting out how they plan to use them. According to the Government, it was not possible to produce the full list of the regulations for us now. I say gently that they will have to be produced at some point, even if not for the delectation of members of this Committee. Does that not raise questions about the capacity of the Department? What happens when the Bill becomes an Act? Who will have the capacity to draft the regulations then? I hope the Minister does not think that is an entirely flippant comment. The assurances we have been given about capacity throughout the passage of the Bill do not appear to be piecing together.
Robert Halfon
I assure the hon. Gentleman that the regulations will be published; the problem is that there are many pages of insolvency legislation. That is why we were unable to publish them in time for the Committee and why we issued the policy statement. They will be published, but it takes quite a long time.
Gordon Marsden
I entirely understand that. I was not suggesting that people are slothing on the job; I was merely making the reasonable point that the Bill necessarily involves a lot of administrative time—I put it no stronger than that—and that raises in my mind some ongoing concerns about the capacity, either of the Department or of some of its institutions, to take some of these things forward. I will leave it at that.
Kelvin Hopkins
I just want to say that I am deeply disappointed that we cannot discuss the regulations in detail. Perhaps I am alone in that.
Gordon Marsden
All I can say is that my hon. Friend is a shining example to us all. He shames us deeply.
Let me make my own brief and pathetic response to clause 30, in the context of the Stakhanovite task that my hon. Friend has just suggested we undertake. I have a practical question for the Minister. On clause 31, the policy note talks about the way in which the power will be used to make decisions. For simplicity, I say to the Minister that although I am making this point specifically about clause 30—it affects chapter 4, which is very important because it is the special administration chapter —my question is generic and may be relevant to other clauses as well. It is very straightforward. When these revised instruments and regulation-making powers are brought forward, will there be consultation in any shape or form with the various stakeholders—FE bodies, the Association of Colleges, the Collab Group and others?
That is not for the sake of consultation itself. There have been occasions in the past, although I am not suggesting in this particular Department or area, when the lack of such consultation on detailed regulations between representative bodies—it normally has to be done at that level—and officials from the Department has produced anomalies that subsequently have to be rectified. It would be interesting to hear if the Minister can offer any reassurance on that.
Robert Halfon
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his remarks. On Tuesday, the hon. Member for Luton North suggested that he might have been a banker, and today he talks about being an expert on delegated legislation on insolvency. I believe the latter more than the former. Knowing the kind of person he is, he is probably about the only person who could get his head round all the different delegated powers.
The clause modifies the power to make rules under sections 4 and 1 of the Insolvency Act 1986. It allows detailed rules about the education administration for FE bodies to be made in the same way as they are for companies. The power only permits rules to be made to give effect to the chapter of the Bill that establishes an SAR or FE bodies, and the rules cannot be made for any wider purpose. Clause 5 deals with the rules needed for other insolvency procedures for FE colleges. It applies the company insolvency rules and allows us to modify them as necessary.
To answer the question from the hon. Member for Blackpool South, there has been a significant amount of consultation already, and there will be full consultation all the way through. We have to; these things cannot be done without it. I want to reassure him that that will absolutely happen. On those grounds, I hope the clause is acceptable to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 30 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 31 to 36 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 37
Disqualification of officers
Gordon Marsden
I beg to move amendment 8, in clause 37, page 18, line 14, at end insert—
‘(1A) The Secretary of State must ensure the list of disqualified officers is made publicly available.”
This amendment would ensure that a list of disqualified officers was publicly available.
The amendment is fairly straightforward, so I will not detain the Committee long. Again, we hope that these situations will be very rare, and we certainly hope it will be very rare that people are disqualified as a result of them. However, if disqualified people are involved, the principle of transparency is extremely important. This is a probing amendment, to find out how this might be effective.
Perhaps it is worth mentioning what the explanatory notes say about clause 37:
“This clause gives the Secretary of State the power, in relation to further education corporations and sixth form college corporations, to make regulations that have the same or similar effect to the Company Directors Disqualification Act 1986. This will mean that, like company directors, members (i.e. governors) of those corporations can be disqualified from acting as such in the future and the power allows the Secretary of State to make provision so that when a person is disqualified as a director of a company they can also be prohibited from acting as a member of a further education corporation or sixth form college corporation.”
I repeat that we all hope and assume that these occurrences will be irregular. However, would it not be logical for the list of disqualified officers to be made publicly available, to ensure transparency and to allow colleges to easily assess applicants to their own corporations in the future?
Kelvin Hopkins
I support the amendment. In my experience of life, it is often the rogues who are most plausible and we have to have lists of people to make sure that people do not get through the net, move to a different part of the country and take up a job, before we find out that they have twice been a rogue, not just once.
Robert Halfon
The disqualified officers to whom the amendment refers are those members of an FE body that is a statutory corporation who have been disqualified by the court on the grounds that they have been found liable by the court of wrongful or fraudulent trading or other similar offences under the Insolvency Act 1986 as applied by the Bill. Wrongful and fraudulent trading are provisions of insolvency law that will be applied to governors and others involved in running FE bodies that are statutory corporations in the same way as they apply to directors of, and those who run, companies. That is the purpose of the amendment.
It is right that a list is kept of those individuals who have been disqualified and that such a list is available to the public, so that it is evident which individuals should not be appointed as governors of colleges in the future. However, there is no need to provide for that specifically in the Bill. There is provision in the Company Directors Disqualification Act 1986 for a register of disqualification orders to be kept by the Secretary of State and for that register to be open to inspection—as we continue to refer to that Act, I propose that we use its acronym, the CDDA.
Clause 37 will allow us to replicate provisions of the CDDA; therefore it already allows us to achieve what hon. Members seek with the amendment. I have made it clear that I intend to consult on secondary legislation made under the Bill. That includes regulations made under clause 37, so it will be transparent that we will include a provision in regulations that is the same as, or similar to, the provision that exists in the CDDA, modifying it as necessary to make it work effectively for disqualified members of college corporations. On those grounds, I hope that the hon. Member for Blackpool South will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Gordon Marsden
I thank the Minister for that explanation of the procedure and situation. I am satisfied and beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 37 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 38
Information for Secretary of State about further education
Robert Halfon
I beg to move amendment 18, in clause 38, page 18, line 38, leave out subsection (2).
This amendment removes the restriction on the Secretary of State obtaining information for purposes connected with the education of certain people aged under 25. The way that section 54 of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 is currently framed allows that information to be obtained so the amendment preserves this aspect of the current law.
Robert Halfon
The purpose of the amendment is to rectify a problem that we have identified with the drafting of clause 38 that means that it does not fully meet our policy intent. Amendment 19 is consequential on amendment 18 and simply renumbers subsections.
Our aim is to ensure that the Government can maintain our current system of receiving data from further education providers after certain further education functions are devolved to some combined authority areas in England, which is due to happen from 2018. A key element of the statutory foundation for the further education data system is set out in section 54 of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992, which clause 38 amends. Section 54 imposes a duty on various bodies to provide information to the Secretary of State. Due to its specific reference to functions of the Secretary of State, that duty would cease to apply to some FE provision, as certain functions would have been transferred from the Secretary of State as part of devolution. The intention of clause 38 is to reframe the statutory basis to overcome that problem and enable comprehensive continuation of the current system of gathering information on further education.
We are not seeking to narrow or broaden the scope of education provision or types of learners covered by the duty. Clause 38(2) was drafted because we considered that the learners it describes—those aged 19 to 25 who have an education, health and care plan—were not captured by the duty under section 54. However, after further scrutiny, we have realised that for apprenticeship provision, such learners are in fact in scope of the current duty. Therefore, by including the subsection we were inadvertently narrowing the scope of the duty. That is not our intention, so we are seeking to remove subsection (2).
Gordon Marsden
I thank the Minister for that explanation, in particular on subsection (2), which I had circled and was going to ask him about. He has now answered the question, so we have no problems with the clause. Indeed, it is very important, at a time when the Government continue to embark on devolution initiatives in this area, that a national database should be maintained.
The only observation that I would make—I think this view would be shared by a number of my colleagues—is that the process that is going ahead is somewhat piecemeal and somewhat curious in its restrictions. Some of us might like to see rather more rapid action, and rather broader and more ambitious ways of ensuring that, in the future, not simply adult skills but a much broader range of issues are devolved. However, that is outside the scope of the Government’s amendment and the clause, which we are very happy to support.
Amendment 18 agreed to.
Amendment made: 19, in clause 38, page 19, line 9, leave out “(4)” and insert “(3)”.—(Robert Halfon.)
This amendment is consequential on amendment 18.
Clause 38, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 39 to 45 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
New Clause 1
Further education bodies: senior management
“A further education body shall be required to include in its senior management team a person or persons with professional financial qualifications having specific responsibility for oversight of financial management in the body.”—(Kelvin Hopkins.)
Brought up, and read the First time.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 2—Further education bodies: governing bodies—
“A further education body shall seek to ensure that its governing body includes a minimum of two members with professional financial qualifications.”
Kelvin Hopkins
It is a pleasure to rise to speak to these new clauses, which I drafted myself and are borne of my own experience in college governance and teaching. That is particularly the case for new clause 1, which is about having internal experts with professional qualifications who would suffer severe reputational damage if they did not make sure that the college accounts and financial matters were all in order.
When I was chair of governors of what was then Luton College of Higher Education—it became the University of Luton and then the University of Bedfordshire —the principal decided that the accounts were not really up to scratch, and so spent a summer going through every detail of the college’s finances. He found many thousands of pounds unaccounted for, which he was then able to use to the benefit of the college. He happened to be a graduate in mathematics, which meant that he was at least numerate and could deal with accountancy, but accountancy is a specific skill.
As a student, I was taught economics by a former Treasury official whose next-door neighbour was an elderly lady who wanted him to deal with her accounts. He had to explain that an economist is not an accountant; it is a very precise skill and not something that one can just pick up at will. My closest university friend was a professor of accountancy. I know only too well that accountancy is a professional skill that needs great minds. I also understand that some of the people with the highest IQs in our country are accountants. Clearly accountants are important people, and it is important to have them involved.
At Luton Sixth-Form College, one of the deputy principals is a qualified chartered accountant. She is a superb member of staff who makes absolutely sure that all the forecasts and all the financial details are under control. We have been guided by her for many years now. It makes us feel at ease. We know that the finances are well under control, well understood and thoroughly explained to us on all occasions. Many years ago, before she was employed, I was on the finance and general purposes committee, and I remember the problems I had just getting to grips with it, and I am a numerate person with a degree that includes economics and maths. It was difficult stuff, but we had some good accountants on the governing body.
This is an important issue. If one wants to avoid insolvency, the best thing to do is ensure that one has someone with the skills to ensure one does not get into that situation in the first place, and that alarm bells are rung. As governors and politicians and Government Members, we are all well aware of what the problems are. If a principal is wilful and wants to do things beyond what they should be doing, and they have a weak financial adviser without professional qualifications, they will get away with it. There is also the question of competence; a principal may not be competent at dealing with accountancy.
Accountancy is extremely important. It sounds very boring, but I am glad that accountants are there. I would not want to have the responsibility of making decisions on financial matters without the advice of serious professionals. I have no doubt that some members of the Committee are qualified in accountancy. I am not asking Members to put their hands up, but they are about.
I have been a governor of Luton Sixth-Form College for 23 years continuously. I was also a governor there for two years in a previous period. I have been comforted by the fact that we have always had at least two qualified accountants on the governing body who can question and check the accounts and assure us that they are right, that we are not making mistakes, and that the college is in good financial order, especially when we are under pressure. We are under financial pressure; there has been the VAT issue, which I will not go into now, but we have debated it on many occasions. It is a great comfort and reassurance that we have professionals sitting on the governing body who can look at an account, make sense of it, and ensure that we are doing the right thing. It is not just a question of numeracy, which I have; it is about the specific skill of accountancy.
New clauses 1 and 2 would make a very valuable addition to the Bill. I hope that the Government will accept them or build requirements of that kind into the Bill to ensure that colleges are well governed and well managed in financial matters.
Gordon Marsden
I congratulate my hon. Friend on speaking to the new clause with his customary insight and from past experience, which are powerful advocates for the mechanisms he proposes. There are not many vehicles in the House for the regular praising of accountants. I am tempted to say that if we were in the middle ages and my hon. Friend, with the passing of years, were to pass away, he might be subject to a posthumous cult of the patron saint of accountants. The serious point is that everything my hon. Friend said is valid. Whether what he proposes is done in a formal way, as he suggests, or by strong direction, the Government would do well to take on board his proposals.
Robert Halfon
I thank the hon. Member for Luton North for the new clauses and for his wise contributions throughout the Committee. Rather than the role of banker, I think he has taken on the role of the Gandalf of the technical education and further education sector. There will therefore be no danger of his passing as the hon. Member for Blackpool South described.
The hon. Member for Luton North has tabled two important new clauses. In an ideal world it would be a good thing if all or even some members of governing bodies had important financial qualifications, but I remind him that the head of Blackpool and The Fylde College, when asked about that, said:
“I am thinking of the unintended consequences. It is very easy to say that we can dictate exactly the constitution of a governing body, but if we are looking at further education corporations across the country, some of them are very different. My own, for example, is an outstanding college.”—
I have seen it for myself, and it certainly is—
“We are very strong financially…we benefit from the mix and balance that we have on the board: we benefit from our business community and from two very able students on the board. I am hesitant about mandating exactly what that board would look like, because it varies by college. If, for example, I were a land-based college, I might want a slightly different mix, so I am hesitant about fully supporting that.”––[Official Report, Technical and Further Education Public Bill Committee, 22 November 2016; c. 60, Q80.]
When I asked her about the best way to achieve what she had done, she said what is needed is an expert to manage finances: not necessarily, dare I say it, someone with an educational background—we were talking about the education administrator earlier—but someone with a good understanding of finances. Where colleges are doing better even with all the financial pressures, I suspect that is because they have brilliant financial teams as well as the brilliant leadership of the principals and the advice of the governing body.
It is the governing body of the college that is best placed to ensure that effective management is in place that meets the needs of the college, but it must be the principal who puts her team in who has the day-to-day responsibilities. When colleges fail, as the hon. Gentleman will know, the proper intervention system is in place, with the education commissioner and suchlike.
The introduction of the insolvency regime will change a lot of this anyway, and it will serve to emphasise the importance of sound financial management. Although the Government are committed to the protection of learners, corporations are ultimately responsible for ensuring the financial health of their institutions.
I am wary of imposing such a measure, but I have a lot of genuine sympathy with the hon. Gentleman’s intentions. I commit to continue working with the sector to strengthen the financial acumen of governing bodies and the capability of financial directors. That will protect the interests of not only the colleges, learners and employers in the local communities but the taxpayer, which is incredibly important. On that basis, I hope the hon. Gentleman will withdraw the motion.
Kelvin Hopkins
I thank the Minister for his assurances and for his acceptance of the points I have made, if not of the new clauses. Even if nothing arrives in the Bill, I hope that guidance to colleges will, in one form or another, make sure that proper financial governance and financial management takes place so that insolvency is avoided at all possible costs.
Robert Halfon
I should have said that we are lucky in the sense that we have the Association of Colleges, the Collab Group and the Education and Training Foundation, and all those organisations are doing everything they can to improve financial leadership in colleges up and down the country.
Kelvin Hopkins
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
Robert Halfon
On a point of order, Mr Bailey. As we have reached the end of the Bill—in Committee, at least—I would like to put several things on the record. First, I thank the Opposition for the incredibly thoughtful and serious way in which they have dealt with the Bill. Where I have said that I will reflect on things, I really mean that. I particularly congratulate my opposite number, the hon. Member for Blackpool South, given that he has just come out of another huge Bill; he did this Bill almost straightaway. His capacity for knowledge is extraordinary. What the hon. Member for Batley and Spen said about careers is particularly important, and I also thank the hon. Member for Luton North for his contributions.
May I also thank you and your team, Mr Bailey, and my Government colleagues, who have been incredibly helpful and supportive? Finally, I mentioned capacity—over the past couple of weeks, the incredible officials and many others have worked day and night to get this Bill to the House and into Committee, and I am hugely grateful to them.
Gordon Marsden
Further to that point of order, Mr Bailey. May I associate myself with the Minister’s thanks to you and Ms Dorries? You have chaired fairly and lightly. I also thank your team—particularly the Public Bill Clerks, to whom the Opposition are always indebted, given that we do not have the Government’s resources.
May I thank my own superb team for everything that they have done? I am sorry that my on-the-ball Whip, my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull East, is unable to be with us today, but he is at the forefront of industrial progress celebrating Siemens wind farms finally coming to fruition in his constituency, so he has a good excuse. I am grateful to all of my team, in which we have two relatively new Members—particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Batley and Spen—and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East for deputising.
I also thank the Minister and his team. He has been generous and prepared to listen and think carefully and constructively, and we welcome that. We look forward to some of the amendments we have withdrawn perhaps re-emerging in further information from him before Report stage. We are delighted to have taken part in this process and grateful for his contributions and constructivity.
Bill, as amended, to be reported.
Technical and Further Education Bill
Monday 9th January 2017
(7 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Technical and Further Education Act 2017 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Consideration of Bill Amendments as at 9 January 2017 - (9 Jan 2017)
20:10 - The House divided: - Ayes: 186 / Noes: 274 - Question accordingly negatived.
20:59 - The House divided: - Ayes: 183 / Noes: 278 - Question accordingly negatived.
Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Mr Speaker
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
New clause 2—Representative panels—
‘(1) The Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education shall establish—
(a) a panel of persons undertaking approved English apprenticeships; and
(b) a panel of persons undertaking study towards approved technical education qualifications.
(2) A panel under subsection (1)(a) shall be established by 1 April 2017 and shall advise the Board of the Institute on all matters concerning approved English apprenticeships.
(3) A panel under subsection (1)(b) shall be established by 1 April 2018 and shall advise the Board of the Institute on all matters concerning technical education qualifications.’
This new clause would establish representative panels of apprentices and of learners in technical education who are not doing apprenticeships.
New clause 4—Careers education: duty to publish strategy—
‘(1) The Secretary of State shall publish a strategy for the purposes of improving careers education for persons receiving education or training—
(a) in the course of an approved English apprenticeship;
(b) for the purposes of an approved technical education qualification; or
(c) for the purposes of approved steps towards occupational competence.
(2) The strategy shall be laid before Parliament.
(3) The strategy shall specify provisions under which the Secretary of State will seek to—
(a) ensure that persons receiving education or training under subsection (1) receive information, advice and guidance relating to their future careers, and that such information, advice and guidance is delivered in a way which meets each person’s needs and is impartial;
(b) ensure that such information, advice and guidance may be taken into account by relevant authorities and partners to meet the needs of local or combined authority areas;
(c) ensure parity of esteem between technical, further and higher education; and
(d) monitor the outcomes of such information, advice and guidance for recipients.
(4) The provisions specified in subsection (3) shall have specific regard to particular needs of different groups of persons receiving education or training under subsection (1), including—
(a) persons with special educational needs;
(b) care leavers;
(c) persons of different ethnicities;
(d) carers, carers of children, or young carers, as defined by the Care Act 2014; and
(e) persons who have other particular needs that may be determined by the Secretary of State.
(5) The strategy shall include guidance for the purposes of improving careers education, to which the following bodies shall have regard—
(a) the Office for Standards in Education, Children‘s Services and Skills;
(b) the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education; and
(c) the Office for Students.
(6) The Secretary of State shall by regulations designate relevant authorities and partners for the purposes of subsection (3)(b).
(7) The Secretary of State may by regulations designate—
(a) further groups of persons under subsection (4)(e); and
(b) further national authorities or bodies under subsection (5).
(8) Regulations made under this section—
(a) shall be made by statutory instrument; and
(b) may not be made unless a draft has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.
(9) For the purposes of this section, “careers education” means education about different careers and occupations and potential courses or qualifications to attain those careers and occupations.’
This new clause would establish a statutory requirement for the Government to produce a strategy on careers education, which shall be taken to be the “Careers Strategy”.
Amendment 4, in schedule 1, page 21, line 13, at end insert—
‘(4) The Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education in performing its functions must have regard to the need to promote equality of opportunity in connection with access to, and participation in, education or training provided in a form specified in subsection (6).’
This amendment would ensure that the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education must have due regard for widening access and participation.
Amendment 5, page 21, line 13, at end insert—
‘(4) The Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education in performing its functions must co-operate with the Apprenticeship Delivery Board on progression into, and delivery of, apprenticeships.’
This amendment would ensure that the Institute has a duty to co-operate with the Apprenticeship Delivery Board.
Amendment 6, page 21, line 13, at end insert—
‘2A After section ZA2 (general duties) insert—
“ZA2A Expenditure by the Institute
In the discharge of its duties and functions under this Chapter, the Institute shall in any one year expend a sum no less than the sum projected to be raised under the Apprenticeship Levy in that year.”’
Amendment 7, page 22, line 2, after “to” insert “state-funded”.
Amendment 8, page 22, line 23, at end insert—
‘(1A) In making determinations under subsection (1)(a) on occupations relating to apprenticeships, the Institute shall attach particular importance to the needs of apprentices aged between 16 and 24.’.
This amendment would ensure the mapping of occupation groups has particular regard for people aged 16-24 taking apprenticeships.
Amendment 9, page 23, line 2, at end insert—
‘(2A) Outcomes under subsection (2)(b) shall include recognised technical qualifications.’.
This amendment would ensure that all apprenticeship standards include a recognised technical qualification.
Amendment 10, page 28, line 6, leave out “course document” and insert
“standard or technical assessment design specification”.
Amendment 11, page 28, line 9, leave out “another person” and insert “other persons”.
Amendment 12, page 28, line 10, leave out “another person” and insert “other persons”.
Amendment 13, page 28, line 12, leave out section A2IA(4).
Amendment 14, page 28, line 17, after “education” insert “route”.
Amendment 15, page 28, line 28, after “education” insert “route”.
Amendment 17, page 28, line 30, leave out section A3A(2)(c).
Amendment 16, page 28, line 32, after “education” insert “route”.
Amendment 18, page 28, line 39, after “Ofsted” insert “, the QAA”.
Amendment 19, page 29, line 1, after “Ofsted” insert “, the QAA”.
Amendment 20, page 29, line 3, after “England,” insert
“including those offered by Higher Education Institutions,”.
Amendment 21, page 29, line 13, at end insert—
‘“QAA” means the Quality Assurance Agency for Higher Education.’
Amendments 18, 19, 20 and 21 would ensure that the QAA would be included in the list of organisations required to share information and that degree apprenticeships were fully covered by this requirement.
Gordon Marsden
Mr Speaker, may I, on behalf of everybody in the Chamber, wish you, the Deputy Speakers—one of them is taking your place as I speak—and all your officials a very happy new year, and the same to all Members of the House?
The issue we are pursuing this evening is whether this will be a happier new year for apprentices and the new Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education. The Government will know that the Opposition have been broadly supportive of the process that they are bringing forward, although it was somewhat forced upon them when their original mechanism, which was to get many of these things through in the academies Bill, was shipwrecked—the academies Bill mark 2 proved to be no more popular with some of their Back Benchers than the academies Bill mark 1. We therefore got a fairly rapid notice of the Technical and Further Education Bill before Christmas.
Having said that, we had a good Committee stage and I want to pay tribute to the Minister for his conviviality and the constructive way in which he responded to us. Of course, as the old saying goes, fine words butter no parsnips, but I hope that by the end of this evening we will have at least a few parsnips buttered.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
My hon. Friend and I, and indeed other Members, tabled a number of amendments in Committee that the Government do not appear to have taken on board. They were not pressed at the time, but we had hoped that the Government would bring some of them forward as their own amendments. Is he somewhat disappointed by that?
Gordon Marsden
I am always slightly disappointed when intimations of progress in Committee are not met with specifics on Report. Of course, the Government have the opportunity this evening, in commenting on our amendments, to do something about it, and indeed to accept some of them in principle. If they think that the amendments are defective but the basic principle is fine, they should take them on board.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
I know the hon. Gentleman feels passionately about the subject, but does he not also agree with the fact that the Government have an overarching approach to careers advice, notwithstanding the Careers & Enterprise Company? It could be difficult to put arrangements that only apply to technical education into this Bill when there is a much broader issue at stake that the Government are tackling at a strategic level.
Gordon Marsden
I hear what the hon. Gentleman is saying. It is true, of course—but this is outwith the discussion that we are able to have this evening—that careers advice and education in this Bill does not start at 16 or at the remit of the DFE. It starts much earlier. If the hon. Gentleman is saying that that is an argument for doing nothing within the limited scope of the Bill, I do not agree. We need to do something. I would like to see the overarching structures that he mentioned but, unfortunately, at the moment I would be quite happy to see a limited overarching structure for the area that we are discussing. The challenge for the Minister is to talk about the £90 million that the Government have allocated to the Careers & Enterprise Company over the course of this Parliament, how it will be spent, how it is being distributed and whether it is adequate.
There are some damning statistics in the report produced by the Institute for Apprenticeships under the aegis of Semta. As the Minister knows, the proportion of respondents saying that their careers advice and guidance was poor or very poor has remained high across all sectors in all surveys from 2014 to 2016. The report says:
“Worryingly, this year 94 survey respondents, 6% of the total, said they had not received any careers IAG at all.”
When we discussed the matter in Committee, those were the sorts of statistics that were available to us. I said—perfectly fairly, I thought—that, although the Careers & Enterprise Company was beginning to make progress, I did not believe that it was yet able to do the necessary coverage because it is heavily reliant on volunteers. Early in December, we learnt that the company does not cater to every college in the country, including the whole of London. There are not just a few cold spots, but whole cold areas. There is a postcode lottery for FE coverage, with 15 local enterprise partnerships not covered and London completely absent.
The chief executive of the CEC, Claudia Harris, confirmed that the company did not work with any of the capital’s 44 FE and sixth-form colleges. During an interview with FE Week, she blamed the lack of coverage on “ramp-up”—I think that is what lesser mortals would call the rolling out of pilots, but I await a definition from the Minister. Now, I am not laying the blame at the door of the Careers & Enterprise Company; the Government are expecting it to do too much with too little, and they should probably also think again about having a company that is so heavily reliant on volunteers to carry out these tasks.
Rob Marris
I apologise somewhat for interrupting my hon. Friend’s magnificent speech. Part of the problem with the apprenticeship levy is that the Government are all over the place on it. I talked to a major supermarket chain that has employees in Scotland and whose payroll is of sufficient magnitude that it will have to pay the apprenticeship levy, but because of devolution there is no guarantee that, in Scotland, its apprenticeship levy funding will in fact be used for apprenticeships. That may be the case in Wales and Northern Ireland as well—I know not. This may go some way towards explaining the gap that my hon. Friend has put his finger on very acutely about where the money is going. The reason is that it is matter for the Treasury, which has not yet got to grips with devolution.
Gordon Marsden
My hon. Friend, as usual, makes a very interesting and succinct point. If I were not constrained by talking about this amendment, we could have some very interesting conversations about how the devolution situation is panning out, but I need to stick to my last.
The other point that is germane to this amendment is the coming Budget. We now know that the Budget will be in the first week of March, so issues about what the rate and the threshold of the apprenticeship levy might be after its first year obviously come to mind. The former Chief Secretary to the Treasury, after much prompting and questioning during the previous Administration of David Cameron, said that
“the government will keep the apprenticeship levy under review.”
So, as we all know, it could go up and of course, theoretically, go down. The level at which it is set, and how much companies get back from it, will be crucial in deciding whether it is a success or a flop. Given that it is only eight weeks until Budget day, what conversations has the Minister had with the Treasury to make sure that it gets the balance right? The more we hear—I said this in May and say it again today—about how the levy will now need to fund the top-up, the devolved Administrations, English and maths at level 2, disadvantaged learners, incentive payments and non-levy payers, the more it seems inevitable that the Government will end up increasing it.
Rob Marris
I am a little bemused by this amendment, although I think I understand it. It seems to me that it would be desirable, certainly within England, if not within the United Kingdom, to have a national framework of standards such that the framework should not simply apply to qualifications that were obtained through a state-funded institution but be spread more broadly. Perhaps my hon. Friend could say a little more about his approach.
Gordon Marsden
My hon. Friend is right to raise the issue of a national framework. Various research reports over many years indicate that the privately funded training market has been exceeding the publicly funded one by considerable amounts, and that includes specialist management training, IT vendor qualifications, and project and programme management. The Government may need to look a bit more carefully at how this process is going to move forward. I absolutely agree about the need to have an overarching national framework, which we do not currently have.
Amendment 8 would ensure that the mapping of occupation groups had particular regard to people aged 16 to 24. This is crucial, because many apprenticeship training providers are reporting that, under the new levy system, employers are deciding to choose apprentices aged over 19 rather than 16 to 18-year-olds, particularly with regard to the new standards. Employers say that there is very little incentive left for them to take on younger learners, especially in the higher funding bands where a £1,000 employer incentive is a small fraction of the overall funding available. As the Minister will know, the Association of Employment and Learning Providers, which has, up until now, predominantly delivered apprenticeships to 16 to 18-year-olds, is seeing the majority of its business switch from this age group to older individuals.
If one looks at Lord Sainsbury’s comments and the skills plan commentary in relation to the changes in funding giving parity to older learners, one can see that the majority of apprentices in this age band are already 18, with little effort to change that through careers support. Perhaps that is the Government’s plan. If so, the Government need to be honest and to tell us that; if not, something needs to change as otherwise we are in danger of ending up with fewer apprenticeship opportunities for 16 to 18-year-olds.
I want to quote to the Minister some recent remarks of JTL, a training provider. About the new system, it says:
“Our employers say that under the new system when the traditional age differentials in funding rates are removed, they would sooner employ young people aged 19 and over. Some 16- and 17-year-olds aren’t allowed on site due to health and safety rules, and many of them have yet to pass their driving test, but the present funding makes it still worthwhile to take them on. Remove the incentive and employers will switch back to recruiting older apprentices.”
It went on to say—I hope the Minister will give this point careful thought, given the emphasis on STEM—that the
“so-called £1,000 incentive for employers to recruit 16- to 18-year-olds simply doesn’t work for STEM sectors. Our level three apprenticeships typically last four years, meaning the incentive equates to a mere £5 per week, which is of no interest to employers given the additional challenges of younger employees.”
That is a timely new year reminder to the Minister that the concessions he made after the Save Our Apprenticeships campaign, with which our party was very pleased to be involved—as he knows, the campaign involved a very broad range of people, whom he met and to whom promised changes—have not solved the problem. The concessions applied a temporary sticking plaster to the problem, and it remains to be seen how long it will stick. Coming on top of the continued lack of certainties about the new structures for apprenticeships and the delayed consultation, there must be concern about the fragility of the Government’s performance in the 16-to-18 area. In FE sectors, such as mine in Blackpool, we desperately need to get such young people skilled apprenticeships, which means looking for them now.
As I am sure the Minister knows, the AELP has raised the issue that a framework of only 15 routes across technical education might create an elitist system of education that denies many young people a work-based route to level 2 or 3. We remain concerned about that, given that so many young people in the service sector are not likely to be automatically covered. I know that there have been conversations saying that this is not really about apprenticeships, but about technical education. Whether it is about apprenticeships or technical education, however, young people in Blackpool and everywhere else need good training, whether from the service sector or the manufacturing sector. I would have thought that focusing on that would make a major contribution to this Government’s social justice agenda and even, arguably, to anticipating the impact of Brexit if controls on migrant labour are introduced. It is important to have a skills strategy that is inclusive, and this is a perfect opportunity to create such a coherent, inclusive strategy that covers a wide range of different abilities and aptitudes and that strives for excellence. That is what amendment 8 intends to do.
I want to talk briefly to amendment 9, which is about all apprenticeship standards needing to include a recognised technical qualification. As the Minister will know, it is not only we who have been concerned about this; a range of organisations—most recently, AELP—has been concerned about the omission of qualifications from some of the new standards. The investment in time and resource is leading to employer fatigue in some areas, and there is a lack of engagement. According to AELP, just under 50% of the current standards released still do not include a mandatory qualification. One alternative solution is our proposed amendment, which would make the whole apprenticeship, rather than simply its components, into a recognised qualification.
I want to move on to amendment 10, which I will group with amendments 11 to 16 and, indeed, amendments 18 to 21. Amendment 10 is about the need to change the title of “course document” to
“standard or technical assessment design specification”.
That would ensure that copyright was acquired only at a level equivalent to apprenticeships. It is argued that underpinning occupational standards and technical assessment design specifications that are the equivalent of assessment plans is all that is needed for Crown copyright. City and Guilds has specifically raised with us the issue of the imposition of acquired copyright in evidence, as have other groups.
We have tabled the amendments because there is concern that imposing acquired copyright is one of the most significant risks to the future vitality of the technical education market in the UK. I accept that this is a complex and technical area, but the Minister needs to look at it carefully. It is not simply a question of existing providers wanting to set in stone a form of protectionism; it is about intellectual property, and where intellectual property starts and ends. The concern of many providers is that there has been a degree of mission creep in that respect in the way in which the Bill has been drafted. From a pragmatic point of view, I must say that if the broader definition of what the institute has to do on copyright remains in the Bill, even more resources may be required to police it, and I have already mentioned that there is a lack of such support. We need to look at these important issues.
The concern that each technical level will have only one awarding organisation has been raised by both the Centre for the Study of Market Reform of Education and NCFE. NCFE has said that, as currently set out, with some of the technical levels going to only one awarding organisation, having one would be unfortunate, but—to misquote Oscar Wilde—to have two might be beneficial. That would provide competition and enable providers to switch quickly in the event of problems, without the multiplication issues that have caused problems and difficulties elsewhere. NCFE has said, more in sorrow than in anger, that the
“current proposals do not seem to recognise the great expertise in designing and assessing Technical and Professional Education qualifications that already exists within Awarding Organisations.”
Our amendments 11 to 16 are consequential on amendment 9. Under an exclusive licensing model, the licence holder for a particular qualification may assume a quasi-monopoly position for the duration of the contracts. That is one of the reasons why the proposals are designed to move away from that principle. It seems to us that the principle should be that there needs to be a rationalisation of the operations of awarding organisations, but not necessarily to the point of having single operators on a licence, given the monopoly and single point of failure issues alongside all the intellectual property rights and Crown copyright ones. I repeat to the Minister that this is a complicated area and I appreciate that it is not easy to get the balance right, but I urge him to think very carefully about some of the representations that have been made and, if he is not able to do anything about them tonight, to at least bring forward solutions in the other place.
The final area on which I want to comment briefly—I have talked about routes and all the rest—is the Quality Assurance Agency for Higher Education. Amendments 18 to 21 would ensure that the QAA was included in the list of organisations required to share information, and that degree apprenticeships were fully covered by such a requirement. Ofsted should have the authority to inspect every apprenticeship. We welcome the growth in degree apprenticeships and expect many more under the levy, but some are not genuinely work-based learning and are a rebranding of more vocationally biased degrees. Stricter monitoring is therefore needed. We argue that the involvement of the QAA is very important in this respect. It is vital that apprenticeships are just that: proper apprenticeships, with which Ofsted and Ofqual need to be well and properly engaged.
I am aware that the Opposition amendments have had to be discussed in considerable detail and some are technical, but the broad thrust of what we are trying to do is: first, to ask the Government to act on their commitments in Committee; and, secondly, to go further than that and make the rhetoric around social mobility and widening participation a reality. The only way to do that is to improve the Bill with the amendments we have tabled this evening.
The Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills (Robert Halfon)
I think this is the first time that a lapel microphone has been used in this way—I appreciate that. I wish the House, and the many apprentices who worked over Christmas and the new year, a very happy new year. I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for chairing the debate. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Blackpool South (Gordon Marsden) for his amendments—as ever, very thoughtful.
I will start by discussing new clause 1, but I just want to make the point that the hon. Gentleman talked about the completion of apprenticeships. Some 70% of apprentices complete and 90% get either employment or further training. We have nearly 900,000 apprentices, an all-time high and a record in our nation’s history, so we are making good progress. He talked about NEETs. He will know that between 2014 and 2015 the proportion of 16 to 18-year-olds in education or work-based learning increased to 90%, which is the highest on record. The percentage of NEETs fell to 6.5%, the lowest rate since records began. He talked about the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education appointments and went on, yet again, about Christmas. I have to say that IFATE is not just for Christmas, it is for life and we want to get it right. We want to ensure that the appointments we make are the right ones and are not made in haste. He sometimes says that we are doing things too quickly and at other times he says that we are doing things too slowly.
On new clause 1, as I explained in Committee, the institute will be required to report on its activities annually under schedule 4 to the Enterprise Act 2016, and the report must be placed before Parliament. That provision will also allow the Secretary of State to ask the institute to report on anything else she thinks appropriate, such as the information requested in the amendment. We think it would be an unnecessary and significant duplication of effort, as the information is already collected and published by the Secretary of State on the performance of the FE sector, which includes apprentices—I gave the hon. Gentleman some of the figures only a moment ago.
Much of that information goes far beyond the role of the institute. The institute’s core role from April 2017 is to oversee and quality assure the development of standards and assessment plans for use in delivering apprenticeships. Under the reforms in the Bill, college-based technical education cannot be held wholly responsible for, for example, job outcomes and wage rates of apprentices once they complete their apprenticeships. It is essential that the institute is aware of the impact it is making. We would expect it to make good use of the data on the outcomes made available to it through these public data sources and surveys, and to explain in its annual report how it has deployed them.
Rob Marris
I am grateful to the Minister for the work he does. He is very committed—whenever I see him he is wearing an “A” on his lapel to show his support for apprenticeships. Will he clarify one point in relation to new clause 1(2)(e), which would include in the report the satisfaction rates of employers? He will be aware that there is some concern that to reach the 3 million target there will be dilution. I am not saying there will be, but that there is concern that there might be. Is the satisfaction rate of employers currently collected —not for every employer, but through sampling—and published? If it is not, it would be very important for it to be published, so that the concerns about a dilution of standards could be somewhat allayed.
Robert Halfon
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind comments. It is published. I think, if I am not mistaken, employer satisfaction is near 90%; it might be 88% or 85% or something like that. I am very happy to provide him with the information if he so requires.
I agree with the hon. Member for Blackpool South that the institute needs to consider the views of those who take an apprenticeship or a course in technical education. I am confident that it will do that. He will know—he pointed it out—that last week we published draft strategic guidance for the institute. In this document, which is now open for consultation, we set out that we expect the institute to establish an apprentice panel that will report directly to the board. I am pleased to say to the hon. Gentleman that it will be ready by April 2017, but the wider point is that we should not rush things. We need to get it right. The apprentice panel will be made up of apprentices from different occupations and experience. The panel will decide for itself which issues to focus on, and will challenge and make recommendations to the board. I am sure it will be a success. It will ensure that the views of apprentices are fed directly into the institute’s governance. It might not be exactly the right model in practice. I want to see how it works. I believe that the institute, particularly in its infancy, should have the flexibility and the freedom to decide the best way of gathering the views of an apprenticeship on an ongoing basis. Whatever model it adopts, I would expect the institute to do something similar for technical education students when it takes on this responsibility, but I want to see how the apprentice panel pans out.
Gordon Marsden
I thank the Minister for giving way with his customary courtesy. I just want to be absolutely clear about the implications of the wording of the document. Is he giving an assurance on the Floor of the House that the panel will be set up by April, that he will review the panel’s progress and whether it has the right form and structure, and that if he thinks it does not have the right form or structure he will replace it with something equally valuable in representing the views of apprenticeships to the board of the institute?
Robert Halfon
I am pleased to give the hon. Gentleman that guarantee. The panel will be set up by April. I believe it would be pointless to have an Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education without proper apprentice representation, but I want to see what the best format is. I am sure it will work and be a success, but I just want, as I said, to see how it pans out. We expect the institute then to do something similar for technical education students.
I agree with the motivation behind the amendment, but I am concerned about enshrining the establishment of panels in legislation. I do not want to put the institute in a constant straitjacket of legislative red tape that reflects every good idea there may be on how best to fulfil its responsibilities. I therefore think the amendment is unnecessary and would undermine the institute’s power to regulate its own governance and perform its duty.
On new clause 4, the hon. Member for Batley and Spen (Tracy Brabin) made a remarkable speech in Committee on a careers strategy. She cares passionately about this, as I do, but I think we do have meat on the bones. It is not just words. The hon. Member for Blackpool South talked about budgets. We are spending £90 million, which includes the work of the Careers & Enterprise Company. A separate £77 million is being spent on National Careers Service guidance just this year. I am going further. I am looking at a careers strategy from the beginning to ensure that we address our skills needs, and to look at how we can help the most disadvantaged. I am looking at how we can ensure widespread and quality provision, and how that leads to jobs and security. I will set out my plans on careers over the coming weeks.
On the investment in the Careers & Enterprise Company, the hon. Gentleman seemed to suggest that there was no activity in London. I have been to a school in east London supported by the Careers & Enterprise Company and the local enterprise partnership. It is doing remarkable work. Some 1,300 advisers are connecting schools and colleges. They are slowly creating a way to connect with 250,000 students in 75% of the cold spots around the country. There is also money for mentoring. He talked about a famine. I would not say there is a feast, but substantive and serious funds are going in. I could spend a lot of time listing the different moneys, but if he looks at this carefully and fairly, he will see the work that the Careers & Enterprise Company is doing.
We will monitor carefully the impact of our work. In January 2017, destination data will be included in national performance tables for the first time, ensuring an even sharper focus on the success of schools and colleges in supporting their students. Before my time, we legislated to ensure that schools gave independent careers advice on skills and apprenticeships—that was done by my predecessor. Work is being done in schools. I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s thoughtfulness in proposing the new clause, but it is my view that it is not necessary because of the action we are taking, the careers plans I am developing and the money that is being spent, which I have highlighted.
As the hon. Gentleman said, amendment 4 would require the institute to have regard to the need to promote equality of opportunity. I welcome the opportunity to debate that. I know why he tabled the amendment and why it is important. It is crucial to widen access and participation, and to ensure that apprenticeships and technical education are accessible to all, which is why I was glad that, for this year, we have our £60 million fund to help to encourage apprenticeships in the most deprived areas of our country.
I reassure the House that the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education will have to have due regard to widening access and participation. We carried out an equalities impact assessment before publishing the post-16 skills plan, which concluded that the reforms are likely to have a positive impact on individuals with protected characteristics, in particular those with special educational needs or disability, those with prior attainment and those who are economically disadvantaged. The economic assessment concluded that all learners would benefit from the proposed technical education reforms, which will give people access to high-quality technical education courses.
I believe that the need to promote equality of opportunity in connection with access to and participation in further and technical education already exists in legislation under sections 149 and 150 of the Equality Act 2010. It is expressly set out in section ZA2 of the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009 that the institute must have regard to
“the reasonable requirements of persons who may wish to undertake education and training within”
its “remit”. The Secretary of State has the power to provide the institute with further guidance under that section. I hope that that explanation gives the hon. Gentleman confidence. I am committed to ensuring that people of all backgrounds have equal opportunities. As he will know, over Christmas we removed the need for apprentices who have serious hearing difficulties to do functional English—they can do sign language instead. That is an example my commitment, as is the extra funding we are giving to employers and providers to get more apprentices who are disabled.
Mims Davies (Eastleigh) (Con)
Will the Minister confirm that bringing together oversight of apprenticeships and technical education in one place will bring coherence into the system, which will ensure and protect diversity and equal opportunity because there will be clearer guidance on all opportunities for career progression?
Robert Halfon
My hon. Friend, who campaigns a lot on diversity and equality, is absolutely right. The proposal will benefit the people who need it most. Many people from disadvantaged backgrounds and with disabilities are prominent in further and technical education.
Amendment 5 addresses the Apprenticeship Delivery Board. The hon. Member for Blackpool South was a little unkind about the board. The board’s representatives include the chief executive of Channel 4, the Compass Group, the City of London, Barclays bank, Sunmart Ltd, Fujitsu, Wates construction, the Ministry of Defence and a significant retail sector member. As he said, there are three women on the board. They are doing important work. They advise the Government and work with businesses to encourage them to have apprentices. As far as I am aware, those people are not being paid. They do not have to do it; they do it because they want to serve our country. They have helped the Apprentice Ambassador Network. The chair, David Meller, is doing important work on that and running the board. I pay tribute to the board. I mean this kindly, but I would not be obsessed with whether or not the Prime Minister has an apprenticeship adviser. As far as I am concerned, the Prime Minister’s advisers are the Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills, which is me, and my boss the Secretary of State. A new adviser for the Prime Minister will not change the course of history for apprentices in our country.
Rob Marris
Most of us would see the Minister as a journeyman or time-served Minister rather than as the Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills. He will forgive me for not researching this earlier, but I did not notice in the list he read out any trade union representation. Unusually for Conservative Members, he is an active trade unionist—or he was. Does he agree that it would be desirable to have trade union representation on that board to get buy-in from the workforce side?
Robert Halfon
The hon. Gentleman will be pleased to know that I am still a trade unionist. That is a good idea. The board is independent, but I will suggest it. I am very impressed and supportive of the work that Unionlearn does, which is why we have agreed to fund it by £12 million. It works to promote training and apprenticeships.
The institute will consult the Apprenticeship Delivery Board and other bodies but, as I have said, we do not need to straitjacket the institute with so much red tape that we stop it from being independent. The delivery board is not intended to have any special legislative standing or corporate identity. It would be unusual to name it in legislation, but the institute will consult the board along with others.
Amendment 6 would require the institute’s expenditure in any one year to exceed that raised by the levy. It is important to clarify that the institute will not have responsibility for the apprenticeship budget, which resides with the Secretary of State for Education. Although the institute is not a funding body, it will be asked to advise on the pricing of apprenticeship standards and allocation to funding bands. The institute’s operations will be funded by my Department and not from the levy funds. It follows that the institute should not be obliged to spend funds raised under the levy.
On devolution, which the hon. Member for Blackpool South mentioned, it will be up to the devolved authorities how they spend the money. If we were to tie the spending explicitly to the levy receipts, there could be adverse funding consequences for the programme as a whole. The budget for spending on apprenticeships in 2019-20 for England and the devolved Administrations totals in excess of £2.9 billion, whereas the projected levy income is £2.8 billion. Having certainty over the funding for apprenticeship training is preferable to linking the funding on a year-by-year basis directly to the wider performance of the economy.
Mims Davies
Eastleigh College, which is the third-largest college providing apprenticeships in England and trains over 9,000 apprentices, is particularly interested in how the funding formula for the institute will work and how that will support its work with communities, so the Minister’s clarity today around the levy, the funding criteria and how it will be delivered is very welcome.
Robert Halfon
I thank my hon. Friend. It is brilliant that her college is providing such training, and I would be pleased to come and see its training programme when I am next in the area. That it is doing this means that it will also be receiving significant funds. I congratulate the college on the work it is doing on apprenticeships.
Amendment 7 would limit the power to confer new functions on the institute to “state funded” apprenticeships and technical education. All the institute’s current functions in part 4 of, and schedule 4 to, the Enterprise Act 2016 and in schedule 1 to the Bill apply to all reformed apprenticeships and technical education qualifications, not just those that are state funded. We would therefore expect that any new functions the institute is required to carry out should also apply in the same way, to ensure that they are fully effective and do not treat some apprenticeships and technical education courses differently in accordance with how they are paid for. We want to ensure that as many people as possible can undertake an apprenticeship or technical education course, and we would not want this to be restricted to those that are state funded purely because the institute’s functions have been limited.
On amendment 8, it is important that the institute considers what apprenticeships might be appropriate for 16 to 24-year-olds. We know that apprenticeships are incredibly important to school leavers and are making sure that anyone from the age of 16 will have an offering of either an academic or technical education or an apprenticeship. The occupational maps that the institute will put together and which will guide apprenticeships and technical education qualifications will be based on information about the skills needs of the country. They will focus on occupations that can help to increase the UK’s productivity and meet the needs of employers. Putting any constraint around the development of the maps and the occupations included, such as by focusing on a particular group of the population, could damage this overall aim.
My Department runs a number of highly successfully promotional and advice services to help to ensure that young people access the right apprenticeship for them. A significant number of 16 to 18-year-olds take up STEM subjects.
Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
On STEM subjects and the advice given to young people, successive Governments have tried to effect change, and the Bill, which is well meaning, will make a positive difference in many respects, but is not the real problem the fact that successive Governments have failed to persuade people that the vocational route is as good as the academic route? Is this not a cultural problem that has bedevilled our country for decades?
Robert Halfon
The hon. Gentleman is completely right. When I talk about my priorities for skills and education, one of the first things I mention is transforming the prestige and the culture. As he says, this is regardless of what party is in government, and it is not just about Governments either; businesses have also underinvested. Vocational training has always been seen as a so-called—I hate the term—Cinderella sector. The whole purpose of the Sainsbury reforms and the levy is to change behaviours and give apprenticeships and skills and technical education the prestige they deserve.
Vernon Coaker
The question for the Minister, as it was for me and others here when we were schools Ministers, be we Conservative, Liberal Democrat or Labour, is this: why will it be different this time? The Minister is absolutely right in what he has said, but why will it be different this time from all the times that have gone before?
Robert Halfon
Unlike the hon. Gentleman, I was not around for all the other times that have gone before. We have our differences, of course, but there is much cross-party consensus on the Sainsbury reforms, for example. Moreover, the apprenticeship levy is a fundamental reform to change behaviours—it is not just about raising money; it also changes behaviours. I believe that there is a new national conversation about apprenticeships and that things are changing, but the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. I think we are on the tip of something special, but a lot more work needs to be done.
Because of time, I will speak only briefly on some of the other amendments. On amendment 9, the hon. Member for Blackpool South raised some important points, but we feel that the amendment is unnecessary. The important feature of approved English apprenticeship standards is the move away from a reliance on a series of small and pre-existing qualifications making up an apprenticeship and towards a single end-point assessment. By not mandating qualifications in standards unless they meet one of these criteria, we are ensuring that individual employers have the freedom and flexibility to determine how to train their own apprentices to ensure they gain full competency. It is expected that the institute will continue with this approach.
The provisions on education copyright are very complicated, and I understand why the hon. Gentleman has raised them, but we do not think that the proposed provisions are necessary. Some of the concerns are covered by existing legislation, but we believe that the institute should have the right of copyright, and the bodies working with the institute will know that. We do not agree with the word “route” either because it could be confusing for employers. I want this form of training to be prestigious, and so I want the words “technical education”. I do not like the term “tech levels” either because it dumbs down a very important qualification.
Amendment 17 is on the power to charge for technical education certificates, and I should say that we also have a duty of care to the taxpayer. The institute will not make money out of this provision. It is all about giving it the power to do so if it so chooses and about having a duty of care to the taxpayer. It is for that important reason that we do not support the amendment.
On the Quality Assurance Agency for Higher Education and amendments 18 to 21, the organisations named in the provisions will all have an important role. The omission of the QAA reflects in part the changes being introduced in the Higher Education and Research Bill, which is currently in the other place. Amendment 20, which specifies that the term “apprenticeships” should include those offered by higher education institutions, is not required. I am clear that the term “apprenticeships” includes all apprenticeships offered at all levels, regardless of the training provider.
In conclusion, I thank the hon. Member for Blackpool South for his thoughtful new clauses and amendments on technical education and I thank other hon. Members for their contributions. I hope that my responses have reassured the hon. Gentleman and the House on their underlying concerns. I therefore ask that he withdraw new clause 1 and not press his other amendments.
Rob Marris
If you will allow me a little latitude, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to place my remarks on the amendments in context. I was recently speaking to someone who made a very good point about who is fitting all the kitchens and bathrooms in Poland. This person had experienced very good electricians from Romania working in this country. Our conversation was about Brexit and the skills shortage in the United Kingdom. Whichever side of the debate hon. Members supported, Brexit provides our country with an opportunity to try to address the skills shortages that we have had for decades and have relied for filling on importing workers.
Kelvin Hopkins
My hon. Friend is making very thoughtful points. He may be aware that there is now a fairly successful political party in Lithuania that is against emigration, not immigration, for that very reason.
Rob Marris
I am not surprised about that. In the last Parliament but one, I had the joy of visiting Lithuania with what was then the Trade and Industry Committee, and that was the sort of issue we talked about. In those days, Lithuania was already starting to import labour from Moldova—outside the European Union—because so many Lithuanians had come with their skills particularly to the United Kingdom and Ireland to ply their respective trades, and I specifically mean trades.
What my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South (Gordon Marsden) has sought to do from the Labour Front Bench is to beef up the Bill in two ways. One is to introduce even greater confidence in the new system that we will have, and part of that confidence building means moving towards national standards. This partly addresses the issue raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) about parity of esteem. We talked earlier this afternoon about parity between mental and physical health, but in this case, we are talking about parity of esteem between the vocational and the academic.
Having been a semi-skilled worker for a number of years as a professional driver and a bus driver, I faced a fork in the road. Was I going to go down the vocational route—I had my eye on being a plumber—or was I going to go down the academic route with an eye to being a lawyer? I went down the academic route and I became a lawyer. I do not regret that at all. One reason I did so related to esteem or lack thereof, and another reason was that lawyers get to work indoors whereas plumbers sometimes have to work on building sites outdoors—and I do not like the cold. I am talking about quite a while ago, and the money was better in law than it was in plumbing. I am not sure whether that remains the case nowadays.
We live in a capitalist society. Part of what needs to be done to move towards parity of esteem in a cultural sense is the sort of thing that the Minister has attempted to do during his tenure of office and through this Bill; and, frankly, in a capitalist society, part of it is about paying people more. If we want parity of esteem, we should start paying people equal amounts of money—and pay plumbers as much as lawyers. Given that we live under capitalism, we are moving towards that because of skills shortages.
On new clause 1, I quite understand the Minister’s point that some of the information is already published as a result of the Enterprise Act 2016, but I believe that building this into the Bill as my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South has proposed, would be helpful for sending out the right message about confidence. It is the same with new clause 2, so that the representative panels can become more representative when they are put in place. I welcome the Minister’s assurance this afternoon that those panels will be in place by April, and I hope they will have a breadth of representation that should, I think, be built into the Bill. I asked the Minister a similar question in a slightly different context about the involvement of trade unions. This is not just a tit-for-tat along the lines of “You have the bosses there, so we have to have the workers there,” although that is important; it more about getting buy-in to the new regime from all sections of our society to build towards addressing the skills shortages that we will face, as I have said, under Brexit.
Under Brexit, there is no mistake about it: the price for staying in the single market would be free movement of labour and people; and the UK population has said that it is not up for that and does not want free movement of people or labour. We will therefore not be in the single market, but we will not have free movement either, because there will be restrictions—whether Members like it or not. We should use these circumstances in a positive way, so that local people can train up for jobs and so that we do not keep poaching skilled people from abroad—whether from Lithuania, as my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) mentioned, or elsewhere. For that, we need national standards.
When it comes to confidence, we need proper advice. Careers advice in England has certainly been, to say the least, patchy over the years. I remember when my Government set up Connexions, which was not exactly a resounding success—certainly not in the west midlands. I urge the Minister to think again about new clause 4, which is all to do with building confidence. That is particularly clear in paragraphs (b) and (d) of new clause 4(3). These highlight the fact that the Secretary of State should seek to
“ensure that such information, advice and guidance may be taken into account by relevant authorities and partners to meet the needs of local or combined authority areas”
and to
“monitor the outcomes of such information, advice and guidance for recipients.”
It is part of confidence building that we have a regime that is sensitive to local labour markets, which will change greatly from April 2019 when we are out of the European Union.
This Bill is part of the Government—surprisingly, given what is not happening in other areas—showing a bit of foresight, on which I congratulate the Minister. If only we had such foresight about Brexit ramifications for other areas of public endeavour; we do not, but this Bill is a step forward and part of that jigsaw. I am not saying that this is why the Minister has sought to introduce the Bill, but I do think we should look on it positively in that way, and I think that new clause 4 would help to build confidence in the new system, by ensuring that it would be reflective and flexible.
In referring to amendment 9 and others that my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South said were in a sense under its umbrella—amendments 10 to 16—the Minister talked about employers having freedom and flexibility. Amendment 9 deals with “recognised technical qualifications” and these are connected, certainly for England as I said, with national standards. We need those standards as part of the confidence-building measures, but also to make sure that we get the right people with the right skills—in a sense, workforce planning.
This country is pretty poor at workforce planning. The one area where we could have excellent workforce planning because the number of employees is so enormous and they almost all work for the state is in healthcare delivery, yet it is absolutely appalling. We do not have enough doctors trained here; we do not have enough dentists trained here; we certainly do not have enough nurses trained here; we do not have enough professions allied to medicine—whether radiographers or phlebotomists and so forth—trained here. Yet this is the one area of workforce planning that the Government could get right. I do not mean that only this Government have singularly failed. Under the coalition Government, things went backwards when some nurse training places were shut down. Figures on the number of employees working in the NHS in England alone are so huge that we could take social trends into account and do some pretty good workforce planning on the kind of skills that will be needed in five years or the 10 years that it takes to train a doctor, and so forth.
Arguably, we have been absolute rubbish at this since 1948. Having national standards is important not just for confidence, but for workforce planning. That is why I again urge the Minister to have another think about the import of amendment 9, if not its wording. It is all very well having flexibility and freedom for employers. These were the sort of words that the Minister used—he will correct me if I am wrong—when he explained why he thought amendment 9 was unnecessary and invited my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South to withdraw it. In my view, however, the Minister should have another think about that, because I believe that national standards are important. Again, I draw on my own experience. When I qualified as a lawyer, I took a national exam that had to be taken by all those seeking to become solicitors in England and Wales. For most of us, if we passed, that led to what was, in a sense, the equivalent of an apprenticeship. It was called “articles of clerkship”, and it involved two years in a solicitor’s office. What had been a national exam taken by everyone who wished to be a solicitor in England and Wales then became a moderated Law Society final exam. My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff Central (Jo Stevens) will remind me what it was called. [Hon. Members: “Legal practice course.”] Yes. It became a legal practice course, and standards went down. I say that having talked to people in post-secondary institutions at the time and having trained articled clerks who had experienced the later system when national standards no longer existed.
National standards are not, of course, a guarantee of quality output, but they can be used by any Government, legitimately and properly, to ensure that we have confidence in the system and to ensure that those who undergo an apprenticeship process and emerge from it fully qualified have a qualification that is worth their having as individuals, and worth our society having.
Robert Halfon
Qualifications may be mandatory in an apprenticeship standard if that is a mandatory requirement set by the regulator. They include qualifications that are recognised as a legal requirement—that is, licence to practise—that are required for professional registration, or that are used in a hard sift when apprentices are applying for jobs in the occupation related to the standard and would be disadvantaged in the job market without them.
Rob Marris
I thank the Minister for that clarification. In a sense, he has made my point for me. There will be some national standards in certain fields of endeavour, which he has helpfully specified. However, I think that there is a contradiction in his position, a contradiction from which I do not think I suffer.
Amendment 7, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South, would insert the words “state-funded”. I found the Minister’s argument persuasive when he explained why he thought that the amendment should not be passed. I may have misunderstood what he said, but he seemed to be saying that he wanted a more overarching model that would encompass privately obtained qualifications. I agree with him. I merely suggest that, if amendment 7 is not accepted, it would be logical to accept something along the lines of amendment 9, which would not limit the requirement to state funding but would provide for national standards, not just in the broad but restricted field defined by what the Minister helpfully read out a moment ago, but more widely. I think that that would be better for confidence, better for our economy and better for the people—many of whom will be young—who will acquire those qualifications. I therefore ask the Minister to think again.
A similar issue is raised by amendments 18 to 21, which relate to the involvement of the Quality Assurance Agency for Higher Education. They, too, seem to me to relate to the ability of employers and prospective apprentices—and, in the case of young apprentices, their families—to feel confident that the system will deliver a qualification that our country needs and that involves enough training to ensure that those apprentices are likely not only to end up with jobs but to contribute to society as we would like them to. That returns me to the workforce planning issue to which I adverted earlier.
The Minister and the Government ought to think again about those amendments. They may not want to accept the exact wording, but I should like them to include the Quality Assurance Agency for Higher Education in the list of agencies that will have a role to play in the planning, the maintenance and perhaps even the raising of standards. That would be desirable.
Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)
I was a member of the Bill Committee, which was very constructive and involved much cross-party support. The Minister has a real passion for, and depth of knowledge about, this issue, and the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Blackpool South (Gordon Marsden), also demonstrated a genuine interest.
I want to focus on a specific issue raised by the shadow Minister in connection with his desire to promote equality of opportunity. I think that that should include people with disabilities, and specifically those with learning disabilities. The Government have made great progress—they have helped some 600,000 more disabled people to obtain work in the last three years, which is fantastic—but those with learning disabilities still find it extremely difficult to benefit from the opportunities of work. The proportion is about 6%.
Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con)
I commend my hon. Friend for the work that he did as Minister for disabled people. Does he agree that we also need to help employers? Does not dealing with people with learning difficulties or mental health issues, about which the Prime Minister has talked today, require a great deal of support for the employer as well as the apprentice?
Justin Tomlinson
Absolutely. That is at the heart of the points that I am going to make. People need time to develop the necessary skills, and employers need to be able to provide suitable opportunities for individuals with learning disabilities. All Governments, in all generations, have tried their best to give opportunities to people with learning disabilities. The proportion has stayed rigidly at about 6%, which is the worst percentage involved in any disability and therefore presents us with the largest challenge.
When I was Minister for disabled people, I visited Foxes working hotel in Bridgwater. I was incredibly impressed by the fact that it had managed to get 80% of its young students into work. Its three-year course involved two years in a working hotel, where the students learned how to acquire independent living skills and how to work towards obtaining jobs once they had finished. They were acquiring skills that were needed for their local towns, involving restaurants, hotels and care homes. We all have our own skills gaps in our constituencies, so the skills would be adapted accordingly.
The students spent their final year continuing their learning directly in the workplace. My hon. Friend the Member for High Peak (Andrew Bingham) mentioned employers. That final year gave employers an opportunity to receive support. Foxes academy provided training and advice for employers, and for the staff with whom they would be working. Young lads and ladies were able to learn their skills patiently over the year, which seemed to me to constitute an apprenticeship: they were learning skills on the job.
I invited the team to my Department. I said, “This is amazing: why can we not increase numbers?” I was told, “We could increase numbers, but that final year is so expensive, because we have to support the employer, that we have to cap them.” I think that if we could rebadge the system as an apprenticeship, we could access the funding that is being created through the apprenticeship levy, and bring about a huge number of additional opportunities. I met the then Minister for Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), who agreed with me, and we set up the Maynard review. I am delighted that the Government have accepted every one of its recommendations, and I pay tribute to both Mencap and Scope for the huge amount of proactive work that they did, as part of the review, in helping to shape real, tangible opportunities.
Having spoken personally to the Minister, I know of his passionate desire to see all that through. We touched on the issue in the Bill Committee, but let me urge him now to crack on with those pilots. Every young adult will seize the opportunities which—as I know, having met hundreds of young people with learning disabilities—they are desperate to be offered. I ask the Minister to continue to make this a priority, and, in his summing-up, to explain where we are, what is the timetable, and what more we can all do to raise the issue with local employers.
Kelvin Hopkins
It is a great pleasure to speak in this important debate. I, too, was a member of the Bill Committee, and I am somewhat disappointed that Government amendments have not been introduced at this stage reflecting some of the points made in Committee, especially as they seemed to be accepted at the time, in broad terms, by the Minister. I therefore hope that amendments will even now be brought forward in another place to reflect some of the discussions we had in Committee, and, indeed, some of the points made this evening, particularly by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South (Gordon Marsden) on the Front Bench, who made a tour de force speech introducing all his amendments. It is surprising that there are no Government amendments or new clauses on Report; that is very unusual.
All the amendments and new clauses have been introduced by my hon. Friend on behalf of the Labour Opposition—and they are all splendid and I support them all. The lack of Government amendments is disappointing, even though there is a degree of agreement on the value of this legislation, and we all know we have to do something about improving apprenticeships and training our young people for the future. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West (Rob Marris) said, we have to train our own rather than just poach people from abroad.
New clause 1, requiring the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education to report annually, is specifically about the outcomes of completed apprenticeships; it is about the quality of apprenticeships, not just other, broader measures of success. The quality of apprenticeships is vital, to ensure that they lead to the development of skills for quality, long-term jobs after their completion. Young people who complete their apprenticeships must be desirable to their own and to other employers; they must be able to command good jobs for the long term and to look forward to relatively high pay and advancement in those jobs. It is very important to make sure that apprenticeships are high quality not just in words, and that apprentices can do the things they are required to do after they have qualified.
I remember the days, many decades ago now, when we had full employment. I taught in further education during that era, and in many ways it was a better and happier period than we are in now. Everybody who wanted a job got a job, and teaching in further education was a sheer joy. It has been more painful and stressful since then, I have to say, and less well paid, and the conditions of employment are less good than when I was teaching. But that was several decades ago, back in the early 1970s. We also had large companies, mainly in the manufacturing sector, and the giant public utilities, which were then in public ownership, employing thousands of apprentices every year. They had to train their own and they wanted to make sure they were good. Some of those they trained moved off to other jobs, of course, but it was nevertheless beneficial to those doing the apprenticeships and to wider society.
Our society did well because we were training our own, but we have failed to do that in recent times; we have left things to the market, and the market does not always work well in these matters. A degree of Government intervention is required, and it is significant that the Prime Minister has used a phrase not used by any Government for a long time: she has talked about the need for an industrial strategy. I absolutely support that, and we had a debate on industrial strategy just a few weeks ago, which the hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White) led very well.
The subject we are discussing now is part of that industrial strategy. We have to train these people, to make sure we rebuild industry. We do not produce enough any longer, particularly in the manufacturing sector; we do well in services, but not in manufacturing. We have a gigantic trade deficit because we cannot produce enough and we have to buy in from abroad. We must rebuild the manufacturing sector, not so that it becomes the dominant force necessarily, but at least so that it produces sufficient to have a sensible trade balance, which we do not have at present.
Apprenticeships have always been insecure in recent times because companies are much smaller now than they were and they are less secure because of economic crises. I have many anecdotes from my own experience. Just after the 2008 crisis, I was being driven to Heathrow for a parliamentary visit and the driver had an apprenticeship in the construction sector, but the company he had been with had collapsed and he finished up being a cab driver, which he could have done without doing an apprenticeship.
I have heard of fears, too, such as small companies training apprentices who are then poached by larger, more financially lucrative companies. That is particularly the case in the motor trade, where there are skilled small companies training their own people who are then poached by large companies that do lucrative insurance repair work, which can pay a lot more.
Robert Halfon
I thank the hon. Gentleman for, yet again, making a thoughtful speech. I do not have the figures to hand, but the evidence suggests that apprentices in companies are more loyal to that company than those on any other training scheme or in work experience or doing early-career jobs, and that they tend to stay with the companies they do their apprenticeships in.
Kelvin Hopkins
I am sure the Minister is right in the majority of cases, but for some there is pressure to move on—for instance as a result of what is happening with house prices at the moment, as one can imagine. Certainly in Luton I know of companies, such as small motor repair firms, that employ apprentices who are under pressure to get a home, and if they can earn a few thousand pounds more at a larger company nearby to help them get on the housing ladder, they will do that. I agree that loyalty is important and many of them want to be loyal, but if the financial pressures on their lives are such that they have to move, they will in the end move.
I particularly want to support the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South about the need for a strategy for improving career education and new clause 4. We must ensure that when young people are at school or in further education they are aware of the enormous range of opportunities out there and they do not just look at a narrow field. In Luton too high a proportion of students want to get into the legal profession, for example; they want to be professionals and do not appreciate that there are highly paid, highly skilled jobs in manufacturing industry.
Vauxhall Motors still has a plant in Luton, and almost all its senior executives started as apprentices, leaving school, doing apprenticeships and going up the ladder, eventually doing higher qualifications such as higher national certificates and higher national diplomas and becoming highly paid senior executives in the company. Those opportunities are out there, and young people must be made aware of them. We must have a careers strategy making sure that every young person knows about all the thousands of different roles they could assume in life, rather than just going into the professions, or, indeed, just going into a local company; there are lots of things young people can do.
Life can be very exciting, and it is important that all of us do something we enjoy. I am very fortunate in that I was fascinated by politics in my early life and I finished up in Parliament where I wanted to be; I do not regret a moment of it. But sometimes people are not aware of the enormous range of possibilities in life. Having a powerful careers advice strategy is vital not just for young people’s lives, but for the economy. If people are happy in their work, they will work better and the economy will work better, and the world will be a much better place.
I have one more story that explains something tragic that has happened in Luton. We were a town that trained thousands of apprentices, and I know many of them personally. Recently I visited a small manufacturing company that makes components for Formula 1 and Jaguar. It could not find one toolmaker; it wanted one toolmaker from a town of over 200,000 people that used to be dominated by manufacturing, but could not find one. It is a disgrace that we have failed to train sufficient numbers of people in these areas.
There are many other things I would like to say—I could speak for an hour unaided, I am sure—but as others want to contribute, I will leave it there. I hope the points I have made are of interest.
Vernon Coaker
I was not a member of the Committee, but I know that the Technical and Further Education Bill has generated a lot of really good debate and positive views on how we might achieve what we all want, which is an improvement in the technical and vocational education in this country and in apprenticeships. The fact that there is no division between us on that was illustrated by the contributions from the Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South (Gordon Marsden), among others.
Tracy Brabin (Batley and Spen) (Lab)
New clause 4 deals with careers education provision in technical and further education, and I want to build on the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West (Rob Marris). As the Minister knows from our time spent together on the Bill Committee, this issue is of particular interest to me, and I would like to thank him for the courtesy that he has extended in explaining what the Department is doing in this area, and for introducing me to the Careers & Enterprise Company. I also thank him for his keen interest in improving careers education. After due consideration, however, I feel that the new clause is necessary and that it will complement the work that is already under way. There have been a lot of warm words and verbal support, but not including careers education provision in this legislation is an enormous missed opportunity.
The Bill will shake up the technical and further education sector considerably, and accepting the new clause would show how important career planning is to the House and to the Government. During private meetings before the Bill went into Committee, real concerns were raised with me about the lack of careers education provision in our colleges. It has been stressed that the lack of advice available is such that, without explicit legislation on careers guidance, the matter will be nudged even further towards the back of the priorities queue. Resources in our colleges are overstretched, and I was disappointed to hear that in one institution a receptionist with no specialist qualifications or training had been asked to give careers guidance. The problem of a lack of careers guidance is stark. It has been brought to the attention of the Department by the co-Chairs of the Sub-Committee on Education, Skills and the Economy. In its report, the Sub-Committee states:
“Ministers appear to be burying their heads in the sand while careers guidance fails young people, especially those from disadvantaged backgrounds, and exacerbates the country’s skills gap.”
It is clear that we cannot rely on warm words and reassurances alone. We must have provisions in writing and in legislation, because we have an obligation to our learners. As we know, the world of work that our young people are entering is changing really fast. The sector in which an apprentice starts their learning will have transformed enormously by the time they reach their last year. Access to guidance and advice should not be left behind when they step into a career. It should be more agile and responsive to the skills and experience they are picking up. It is those opportunities that new clause 4 would seize, including an opportunity for a strategy to be laid before the House that was specialised for further and technical education, that was ongoing, and that provided parity of esteem between technical, further and higher education, using the expertise of the new Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education. This is a huge opportunity that is too good to miss.
Gordon Marsden
I thank all those who have spoken. I particularly thank the Minister for confirming that the implications of what we asked for in new clause 2 will be satisfied by the Government, which is an important concession or confirmation, depending on how he wishes to look at it. Whatever it is, we thank him for it.
I will withdraw new clause 1 but, as shown not least by the powerful speeches by my hon. Friends the Members for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) and for Batley and Spen (Tracy Brabin) and others, it is a huge missed opportunity that the Government are not including the strategy in the Bill. I mean no disrespect to the Minister and his personal qualities, but we believe that the strategy needs to be embodied for the foreseeable future in the Bill. On that basis, we will be pressing new clause 4 to a vote.
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 4
Careers education: duty to publish strategy
“‘(1) The Secretary of State shall publish a strategy for the purposes of improving careers education for persons receiving education or training—
(a) in the course of an approved English apprenticeship;
(b) for the purposes of an approved technical education qualification; or
(c) for the purposes of approved steps towards occupational competence.
(2) The strategy shall be laid before Parliament.
(3) The strategy shall specify provisions under which the Secretary of State will seek to—
(a) ensure that persons receiving education or training under subsection (1) receive information, advice and guidance relating to their future careers, and that such information, advice and guidance is delivered in a way which meets each person’s needs and is impartial;
(b) ensure that such information, advice and guidance may be taken into account by relevant authorities and partners to meet the needs of local or combined authority areas;
(c) ensure parity of esteem between technical, further and higher education; and
(d) monitor the outcomes of such information, advice and guidance for recipients.
(4) The provisions specified in subsection (3) shall have specific regard to particular needs of different groups of persons receiving education or training under subsection (1), including—
(a) persons with special educational needs;
(b) care leavers;
(c) persons of different ethnicities;
(d) carers, carers of children, or young carers, as defined by the Care Act 2014; and
(e) persons who have other particular needs that may be determined by the Secretary of State.
(5) The strategy shall include guidance for the purposes of improving careers education, to which the following bodies shall have regard—
(a) the Office for Standards in Education, Children‘s Services and Skills;
(b) the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education; and
(c) the Office for Students.
(6) The Secretary of State shall by regulations designate relevant authorities and partners for the purposes of subsection (3)(b).
(7) The Secretary of State may by regulations designate—
(a) further groups of persons under subsection (4)(e); and
(b) further national authorities or bodies under subsection (5).
(8) Regulations made under this section—
(a) shall be made by statutory instrument; and
(b) may not be made unless a draft has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.
(9) For the purposes of this section, “careers education” means education about different careers and occupations and potential courses or qualifications to attain those careers and occupations.’” —(Gordon Marsden.)
This new clause would establish a statutory requirement for the Government to produce a strategy on careers education, which shall be taken to be the “Careers Strategy”.
Brought up, and read the First time.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
Gordon Marsden
I beg to move amendment 1, page 8, line 4, at end add—
‘(3) Before an education administrator may perform functions specified in subsection (2), they must ensure an appropriate assessment is made and published of the impact of performing such functions, including, but not restricted, to—
(a) the impact on the quality of education provided to existing students of the further education body;
(b) the capacity of another body or institution to undertake any additional functions or provide education to additional students;
(c) the infrastructure of the local area, in particular transport;
(d) the ability of students to travel to another body or institution; and
(e) any financial impact on those students, including the cost of travel by students to attend another body or institution, and steps to mitigate those impacts.
(4) The Secretary of State shall make regulations to specify suitable bodies for making the assessments at subsection (3).
(5) Regulations made under subsection (4)—
(a) shall be made by statutory instrument; and
(b) shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.”
This amendment would ensure that an appropriate assessment is made of any potential impacts on students and their education, if an education administrator puts a further education body into “special administration” and takes action such as transferring students to another institution or keeps an insolvent institution open for existing students. This amendment would also require the Secretary of State to specify suitable bodies to perform such assessments.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 2, in clause 18, page 9, line 15, at end insert—
“(e) suspend the Office for Students protection action for students.”
This amendment would give the court the power to suspend Office for Students’ student protection action for the period of insolvency in which the education administrator has responsibility for the management of an FE body .
Amendment 3, in clause 28, page 13, line 2, at end insert—
‘(1A) Sums guaranteed under subsection (1) shall include statutory pension obligations payable to staff employed by a further education body subject to an education administration order.”
This amendment would ensure that staff employed by an FE college continue to accrue statutory Teachers Pension Scheme and Local Government Pension Scheme pension obligations? during an education administration.
Amendment 22, in schedule 2, page 30, line 39, at end insert—
“3A The education administrator may not transfer assets of any further education body to a for-profit private company where he or she considers that more than half of the funding of the acquisition of the asset came from public funds.”
This amendment would ensure further education bodies with a track record of accruing assets publicly, could not be transferred to a for-profit private company.
Gordon Marsden
May I wish you a happy new year, Mr Deputy Speaker?
We turn to the extremely important part of the Bill, which is one of the reasons why the Bill is in the form it is. I shall deal with that in a moment or two when discussing amendments 2 and 3. First, I wish to focus on the importance of clause 14 and of the Government’s welcome introduction into the Bill of the role of the education administrator. Although we welcome that, we want to probe, as we did in Committee, just how it is going to work in practice, and that is the purpose of amendment 1. It is extremely important to remember the end product we are all aiming at. We hope—and I believe, as I am sure the Minister does—that the number of occasions when the detailed insolvency provisions laid out in the second part of the Bill will be required will be as few as possible. Shortly, I will suggest why I think they are particularly necessary and deal with some of the related issues.
This amendment would ensure that an appropriate assessment is made of any potential impact on students and their education if an education administrator puts a further education body into special administration and takes action such as transferring students to another institution or keeps an insolvent institution open for existing students. It would also require the Secretary of State to specify suitable bodies to perform such assessments. The amendment has been tabled at the urging of the National Society of Apprentices and it touches on an area where the Minister and I have common ground: the importance of understanding what the end product of this new education administrator is all about. He or she is there to provide protections and support that would not be available in a traditional insolvency process. That is extremely important in terms of the position of young people, particularly those who might be at college as part of their apprenticeship or of other training.
I wish to speak particularly to the proposed new subsections 3(c), 3(d) and 3(e) set out in our amendment. One thing that the NSOA’s research has shown—this was in 2014 and the figure may well have increased since—is that apprentices spend, on average, about £24 a week on travel, which equates to a quarter of the salary of an apprentice earning the apprentice national minimum wage. Additional research has indicated that some young people were choosing the apprenticeships they could afford to get to, rather than those they were keen to do. In the light of the area review process in England and the creation of fewer, more resilient colleges, we are concerned about the impact on those potential apprentices in terms of their travel time between provider, employer and home. We have had our disagreements with the Government over that review process and will doubtless continue to probe them strongly on it.
The Opposition believe it is important that the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education takes a clear and early lead role in encouraging local authorities and transport companies to ensure that all young people, including apprentices, are covered by travel concessions. Without a high-profile champion for their needs, apprentices can too often be excluded from such concessions, because apprenticeships are perceived as employment rather than education and are excluded from the relevant definitions. The crux of the amendment is to ensure that the entitlement that the Bill gives to students to continue their education works in practice. The ambitions of the provisions on special administration are noble; the amendment is intended to be a safeguard against any unintended consequences.
Rob Marris
My hon. Friend is much more familiar with the Bill than I am. On the clarity that he seeks to introduce by this amendment, does he share my concern—perhaps he does not, because he knows the Bill better—that it is not clear in the Bill what an education administrator is? I know that he or she will be an officer of the court and that they will carry out certain functions. Training is central to what we are talking about on the Bill, yet I cannot see anything that says there has to be certain qualifications for an education administrator. It is a bit fuzzy.
Gordon Marsden
As usual, my hon. Friend is perceptive. If we had the time and if it was within the scope of this amendment, I would acquaint him with the debates in Committee during which we discussed that matter at some length. Although we have not moved any more specific amendments in that area—obviously, this is something for the other place—the Minister needs to reflect further on what, if anything, needs to be put in the Bill to answer perfectly legitimate and important questions such as the one my hon. Friend has just asked.
There are a number of effects that the invocation of these education administration powers may have on students, but that is precisely the point of the amendment: to ensure that whatever impacts these powers have in practice, they are assessed within the local circumstances of the colleges in which those changes are needed.
Let me turn now to amendment 2, with which I hope the Minister will have some sympathy. Again, if he not happy with its structure, perhaps we can juggle with it. The amendment would give the court the power to suspend student protection action by the office for students for the period of insolvency in which the education administrator has responsibility for the management of an FE body.
The Association of Colleges is particularly keen to see amendment 2 addressed. It is concerned that the insolvency regime is being introduced at the same time as a separate protection regime takes place in higher education under the control of the new office for students—that Bill has entered its Committee stage in the other place only today. We have some sympathy with its belief that the Government have missed an opportunity to introduce a joint legal regime, covering both further and higher education corporations. However, we are where we are, and that is the basis on which this proposal is being put tonight, so this Bill needs to be amended to remove duplication between the HE intervention regime and the FE regime. This affects colleges that want to maintain or develop their HE provision, which is an important part of the system and which involves up to 150,000 students. I feel strongly about this because it affects my local college, Blackpool and the Fylde College, which has up to 1,000 students.
We have two Government Bills creating two separate control systems with two sets of obligations on colleges. Ministers will say that special administration and the OFS powers will be used only in exceptional cases, but, inevitably, colleges will have to prepare for the worst. If they have higher education provision, they will need to boilerplate—double insulate—their finances to satisfy the organisations with which they deal. This could make it a lot more expensive to run HE provision than it needs to be. The purpose of the amendment is to confirm that the OFS regime will be suspended during a special administration.
I wish to speak briefly to amendment 3, which addresses the need to ensure that staff who are employed by an FE college continue to accrue statutory teachers’ pension scheme and local government pension scheme obligations during an education administration. This issue has been raised not just by the Association of Colleges, but by the University and College Union. Colleges employ large numbers of staff and not all of them are teachers. In addition to caretakers, catering staff and cleaners, they employ learning support assistants, IT technicians and administrators. On Second Reading, we made a point of emphasising that, just as with universities, it is not simply teachers, administrators and bureaucrats who keep these institutions going. The same is true of FE colleges. We would be appalled if, as a result of any of these issues, people’s pension rights or their potential pension rights were affected.
We believe that there are more than 70,000 people in colleges who are not teachers and who are eligible in law to membership of the local government pension scheme. There is some evidence that the Bill has raised concern among those running local government pension schemes and that it is already resulting in additional financial demands on colleges. We do not think that it is the Government’s intention to use the process to renege on debts to the LGPS, because that would simply pass on the costs to all the other employers, including councils themselves, but colleges have no choice in law about whether to offer LGPS membership. The fact is that they do provide access to decent pensions for 70,000 people, and the purpose of the amendment is simply to clarify that staff employed by an FE college continue to accrue those obligations and that the Government will ensure that any additional debt accrued is covered. That would ensure that statutory TPS and LGPS pension obligations are suspended but that employed staff can continue to accrue entitlements, but that that does not result in penalty interest, which is written into TPS and LGPS rules once they recommence.
In case the Minister thinks that this is only a hypothetical issue, it is worth making the point—the UCU has done so—that there are already real concerns about pension scheme deficits in certain colleges, and that the regulation, if the issue is not addressed, could cause alarm with lenders and raise interest rates, which could of course negate the stated aim for the introduction of insolvency regulations and preclude the increased confidence in the insolvency scenario that the Government and we are very keen to see.
Rob Marris
May I assure my hon. Friend that the Minister is well aware of that scenario, because my local college, the City of Wolverhampton College, has a big pension problem, and when I have discussed it with him he has been extremely helpful in trying to resolve it?
Gordon Marsden
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention, because he has provided a specific example of precisely the issue that has led us to table the amendment.
Amendment 22—I give notice that we will be pressing it to a vote—would ensure that further education bodies with a track record of accruing assets publicly could not be transferred to a for-profit private company. We had a significant discussion about that in Committee. For the benefit of those who were not in Committee, and indeed those who were, I will try to summarise it as briefly as possible, because I think that the principle is extraordinarily important.
The current situation raises some significant questions about what would happen to the transfer of assets. The information states that assets should be transferred only to charitable bodies, and it is on that point that I wish to focus my remarks. Where the bodies are not charities, assets must be transferred in accordance with the charitable purpose of the trust. It then links to a list of prescribed bodies to which assets could be transferred, including sixth-form colleges and governing bodies. The point that I am making is that it is expected that all transfers should be made to charitable bodies, but that is not the same as saying that that is required.
When colleges were incorporated in 1992, it took them formally outside the aegis of local authorities. My hon. Friend the Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) spoke eloquently about that in Committee. We have to take into account that the asset base in many cases was built up with local authority support and funding over 20 or 30 years. I reminded the Minister in Committee about my own local college, Blackpool and the Fylde College, which he has visited. He went to the Bispham campus, which has buildings and elements that go right back to the 1950s and ’60s. When the Building Colleges for the Future process took place in 2000, we did not get the new college that we hoped we would for a variety of reasons to do with where we were in the food chain. Nevertheless, I am illustrating that the estates of many buildings we are talking about have been accrued either on an active financial basis or by the ceding of land by local authorities and other organisations.
Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that there is a particular issue in higher value areas, where it may be tempting to build some more flats on public land that should actually be used for the common good?
Gordon Marsden
My hon. Friend has a double qualification to speak on the subject: as the Member of Parliament for the constituency she represents and through her previous career as a distinguished local government leader in London. She knows whereof she speaks and she is absolutely right that the problem is accentuated in those areas.
Money has come in over the years including pre-1992 and in the major Building Colleges for the Future programme that the Labour Government introduced in the 2000s. Then, of course, significant sums of money were put in by regional development agencies and sometimes through regional growth fund developments and offshoots of European structural funding. As I said, FE colleges deliver not just FE, but higher education. If 10% to 12% of total HE provision is being delivered by FE colleges, it is really important that we do not lose that position.
I do not want to rehearse—indeed, we do not have time to tonight—the arguments that were made in 2011 about the private for-profit sector training coming in and being involved with various equity funds whose investment platforms were very much focused on a broad area. However, I would say, as many in the sector would, that although the private equity funding sector can be extremely profitable and useful, it is based on a relatively short-term view of providing management and initial capital to buy other companies and then taking them off the public share markets. It is entirely reasonable for us to be concerned about the possible disposal of lands with significant amounts of public assets. The question is not simply whether it is a good thing to transfer a significant number of public sector assets to a private provider, but what the financial guarantees are. More importantly, there are issues regarding the nature of the body and the guarantees to the students and the people employed there if such organisations use the insolvency to take on those colleges.
Ministers may talk about guarantees for staff under TUPE, but I am sure that hon. Members realise that TUPE does not offer protection forever and a day. I have had significant experience of that in my constituency in Blackpool over the years with people who have been outsourced from the civil service and TUPE-ed into other organisations that have then passed on to someone else, at which point those people’s automatic rights and security of tenure have almost become extinguished. Those are our concerns and they are not irrelevant. They are concerns of pragmatics and of principle. It is not as though there have not been concerns in the area previously.
In December 2014, the Public Accounts Committee severely quizzed officials from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, which then had responsibility for the matter, about why private providers were allowed to engage in untrammelled expansion without proper quality checks. In February 2015, the Committee published a report that said that BIS has repeatedly ignored advice from the Higher Education Funding Council for England about vast sums of public money going to for-profit colleges without due process and consideration. There is the potential, as Martin Doel, the former chief executive of the Association of Colleges, said, for private organisations to
“asset strip colleges’ buildings and facilities”
or “pick” assets.
So, for the avoidance of doubt, we are not saying that we would oppose any private sector takeover of a college in any circumstances; we are saying that the education administrator will have to make a judgment. We are also saying that, without the protection in this amendment, the potential for the things I have described to happen would be very high, and that is why we are determined to press the amendment this evening.
Robert Halfon
I thank the hon. Member for Blackpool South (Gordon Marsden) again for his amendments. I will begin by discussing amendment 1, which affects clause 14. I have to stress that, in the unlikely event that an FE body becomes insolvent, we want to ensure that any disruption to students’ studies is avoided or minimised as far as possible. It will be for the education administrator to deal with that, and according to the relevant clause in the Bill, they will be an insolvency practitioner—they are likely to come from one of the bigger companies and to have education experience. It will be the same system as with insolvent companies.
The education administrator will decide how the special objective will best be achieved. Clause 14(2) does no more than suggest ways in which that might be done. The education administrator will need to consider the specific circumstances of any insolvency and then determine the most appropriate approach. It is inconceivable that they would draw up proposals for achieving the special objective without having had discussions with a wide range of stakeholders, such as the Further Education Commissioner, student bodies and others, and without considering a wide range of pertinent issues.
Our expectation is that that will include discussions with the key stakeholders, local authorities and others. Where appropriate, it may also involve—I brought this up in Committee—a conversation with the care leaver’s personal adviser. We discussed in Committee the additional personal and pastoral support that care leavers might need. I undertook to consider the matter further, and I hope the hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) will be pleased that we are keeping the promise we made in Committee. We will ensure that the guidance to local authorities on their corporate parenting responsibilities, being introduced through the Children and Social Work Bill, includes advice on the role of personal advisers in the event of a college insolvency affecting a young person for whom they are responsible.
We expect the education administrator, in developing their proposals, to take account of the quality of alternative provision and, if it is necessary for students to complete their studies in other locations, to consider the impact of travel distances. The hon. Member for Blackpool South will be aware that we provide funding to colleges to support disadvantaged and vulnerable young people. In addition to the disadvantage funding for post-16 places—£550 million in 2016-17—which can be used to subsidise college buses, there is also the 16-to-19 bursary fund and the fund for the particularly vulnerable. Colleges will be able to offer this funding to eligible students who transfer to them under a special administrative regime. There may be scope for the education administrator to set up a scheme to cover some or all of the additional travel costs if students do have to travel to another location.
In Committee, the hon. Gentleman said:
“We do not want this to become”
a
“long-winded, time-consuming process”—[Official Report, Technical and Further Education Public Bill Committee, 1 December 2016; c. 174.]
I share that view. It is in the interests of students and staff to have certainty as soon as possible about what will happen. Requiring formal assessments to be carried out in the way proposed by the amendment would lengthen the process and reduce the education administrator’s discretion to find the best way of achieving the special objective. That is not to say that we do not agree that these issues are important, but I have shown that they are at the front of the education administrator’s mind.
On amendment 2, I understand the issue about double protection and why the hon. Gentleman has tabled the amendment. The amendment is unnecessary because the court, on hearing an education administration application, already has the discretion to make any interim order it thinks appropriate. If it is necessary or appropriate to make an order relating to an existing student protection plan, the court has the power to do that under the Bill.
On pensions, we have followed as far as possible the provisions of the ordinary administration regime that exists for company insolvencies. We propose to adopt similar provisions for college insolvencies, which, as I say, will be very rare indeed. As with any administration, once the administrator has adopted the employment contracts of the staff they decide to keep on, they are personally liable for the costs of those individuals, such as their salary and their pension contributions. They would take on the appointment only if they were confident that sufficient funds were available to meet the costs. Some pension contributions will continue to be made and benefits accrue. Some staff may be made redundant, whether at the start of the education administration or subsequently, but this will of course be in accordance with statutory employment rights. For these staff, contributions to the pension fund will end once they are no longer employed by the body, but this is no different from the position of any other person leaving their employer’s pension scheme. It is important to be clear, however, that the benefits individuals have accrued in the scheme prior to the end of their employment will not be lost.
I accept that the hon. Gentleman feels very strongly about the transfer issue. FE colleges are statutory corporations with very significant freedoms to deal with their own assets. A solvent college is free to transfer property to any person or organisation it chooses. In order to benefit, the college would of course expect to receive value when transferring an asset to a third party, and in general this would mean transferring at market value, although this depends on the nature of the transaction as a whole. In this case, however, we are talking only about a situation where a college has failed financially and is insolvent—an extreme case.
I need to make it clear to the hon. Gentleman that there are four vital protections that act as a quadruple lock to safeguard assets that belong to the college, which may well have been paid for with money from the public purse but have to be dealt with because the college is insolvent. First, unlike solvent, operational colleges that wish to transfer property, if the education administrator decides to make a transfer scheme, they are restricted as to whom they can transfer the assets. These bodies are prescribed in the secondary legislation made under section 27B of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992. They are public sector bodies with educational functions. In addition, transfers can be made to private companies, but the company must be established for purposes that include the provision of educational facilities.
Secondly, just as with any other action of the education administrator, any transfer scheme must be for the purposes of achieving the special objective of avoiding or minimising disruption to students’ studies. Thirdly, creditors have a general right to challenge should they consider that the education administrator is selling things “on the cheap”, for example. Finally, the Secretary of State or Welsh Ministers must approve the proposed transfer scheme. Any approval will include, among other matters, consideration of whether it is for the purposes of achieving the special objective. I believe that the quadruple lock answers the hon. Gentleman’s concerns.
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his amendments, and thank other hon. Members for their contributions to the debate. I hope that my response has reassured him, and the House, on his underlying concerns. I therefore ask that the amendments are not pressed to a Division.
Gordon Marsden
I have listened carefully to what the Minister has said and taken note of his views and the proposals he has made. On that basis, we are prepared to withdraw amendment 1.
On amendments 2 and 3, I heard the reassurances that the Minister has given, but when the Bill reaches the other place there needs to be a further examination of the very important issues around the pension schemes. I am not entirely convinced that the assurances, which I am sure have been made in good faith, will actually do the business.
As regards amendment 22, I thank the Minister for his explanation of what he described as the quadruple lock, but I am afraid, not least because of seeing past practice, that we have to plan in this Bill not for the best circumstances but for the worst. This is also a really important issue of public policy that we should establish within the Bill. On that basis, we wish to press amendment 22 to a vote. I beg to ask leave to withdraw amendment 1.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Schedule 2
Education administration: transfer schemes
Amendment proposed: 22, page 30, line 39, at end insert—
“3A The education administrator may not transfer assets of any further education body to a for-profit private company where he or she considers that more than half of the funding of the acquisition of the asset came from public funds.”—(Gordon Marsden.)
This amendment would ensure further education bodies with a track record of accruing assets publicly, could not be transferred to a for-profit private company.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
I will now suspend the House for no more than five minutes in order to make a decision on certification. The Division bells will be rung two minutes before the House resumes. Following my certification, the Government will table the appropriate consent motions, copies of which will be shortly available in the Vote Office and will be distributed by the Doorkeepers.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
I can now inform the House of my decision about certification. For the purposes of Standing Order No. 83L(2), I have certified clauses 2 to 38 of, and schedules 2 to 4 to, the Technical and Further Education Bill as relating exclusively to England and Wales and within devolved legislative competence, and clause 1 of, and schedule 1 to, the Bill as relating exclusively to England and within devolved legislative competence. Copies of my certificate are available in the Vote Office.
Under Standing Order No. 83M, consent motions are therefore required for the Bill to proceed. Does the Minister intend to move the consent motions?
Robert Halfon
indicated assent.
The House forthwith resolved itself into the Legislative Grand Committee (England and Wales) (Standing Order No. 83M).
[Mr Lindsay Hoyle in the Chair]
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
I remind hon. Members that if there are Divisions, only Members representing constituencies in England and Wales may vote on the consent motion for England and Wales, and only Members representing constituencies in England may vote on the consent motion for England. As the knife has fallen, there can be no debate
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83M(5)),
That the Committee consents to the following certified clauses of the Technical and Further Education Bill:
Clauses certified under Standing Order No. 83L(2) as relating exclusively to England and Wales and being within devolved legislative competence
Clauses 2 to 38 of, and Schedules 2 to 4 to, the Technical and Further Education Bill.—(Robert Halfon.)
Question agreed to.
The House forthwith resolved itself into the Legislative Grand Committee (England) (Standing Order No. 83M(4)(d)).
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83M(4)(d)),
That the Committee consents to the following certified clauses of the Technical and Further Education Bill:
Clauses certified under Standing Order No. 83L(2) as relating exclusively to England and being within devolved legislative competence
Clause 1 of, and schedule 1 to, the Technical and Further Education Bill.—(Robert Halfon.)
Question agreed to.
The occupant of the Chair left the Chair to report the decisions of the Committees (Standing Order No. 83M(6)).
The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair; decisions reported.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am sure that the House was greatly entertained by the farce that we have just witnessed. I hope that during the adjournment, you had the opportunity to take advantage of the facilities here and even make yourself a nice cup of tea, Mr Deputy Speaker, because it was a completely and utterly pointless waste of time.
Because of the way in which the programme motion has been designed and because of the lack of time available, it has not been possible for the Legislative Grand Committee to consider all these important English-only measures. Given that English votes for English laws is supposed to be of paramount importance and one of the main innovations of this Parliament, is it not disappointing that English Members have not had the opportunity to lend an English—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. I think the hon. Gentleman and I both know, first, that that is not a point of order and, secondly, that an important debate took place today, and it was regarded as important to have a special debate on health as well. The fact is, however, that time has gone. The House agreed to the rules and they have now been applied. Going over all that is not going to change anything. I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising the point of order and he has now put his point on the record. The bottom line is, however, that these are the rules that the House has chosen, as he well knows. That is the end of it. We move on to Third Reading. Perhaps time for a cup of tea. [Interruption.] Order. If you have a problem, Mr Wishart, you should pursue it through the usual and proper channels. The fact is that you did not raise a point of order, as you well know. I know it was not a point of order and you know it was not, which was why you raised it. The bottom line is this: if you do not like it, go and get your cup of tea while the House gets on with the business.
Robert Halfon
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
I want to give my special thanks to all the individuals who have shared their time and knowledge during the Bill’s passage through the House, to the officials who have worked so hard to bring it before Parliament and to those providing written and oral evidence. I would like to thank members of the Committee for their diligent approach and careful consideration of the practical implications of the Bill, and Members who have already spoken today.
I am clear about the priorities that we want to see in apprenticeships, further education and skills, creating a ladder of opportunity for all. These include a transformation of prestige and culture; widespread, high-quality provision; a system that addresses our skills needs; social justice; and job security and prosperity. The Bill seeks to build those priorities into our system, bringing to life the fundamental reforms needed to ensure that we have a skills and education system that rivals the best in the world.
For too long, technical education has been overly complex, overlooked and undervalued. Putting employers at the heart of these changes, as demonstrated through the current apprenticeship reforms and as recommended by Lord Sainsbury’s independent report, we can provide a clear route to employment for our young people. The changes in the Bill will support the achievements of those young people from difficult backgrounds, such as those with special educational needs or disability. In response to what my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) said earlier, we are doing a lot to implement the Maynard reforms, we are spending £2 million to help apprentices with mental health difficulties, and we announced over Christmas that apprentices with severe hearing problems will be able to do sign language instead of English as a functional skill.
We expect individuals with SEND to be over-represented on technical education routes: 23% of those who access technical education routes will have some form of special educational need compared with 7% of those taking level 3 academic qualifications, and 20% of those in the cohort as a whole.
The measures in the Bill will drive up the productivity of our country, turning us into an apprenticeship nation and providing the skills we need for our country to thrive. That is why the CBI has said:
“Businesses have long called for a vocational route…so today’s proposals are a real step forward.”
David Rutley
I thank my right hon. Friend for the incredible work he has done in taking the Bill forward and I commend him for his efforts. Does he agree that one of the most important factors is engaging businesses in these apprenticeships and making the route to skills more relevant for business so that this will not only help to address the productivity challenges that he has mentioned, but improve life chances for the young people involved, too?
Robert Halfon
My hon. Friend, whom I thank for his work on the Committee, is absolutely right. We introduced the apprenticeship levy to change behaviour and involve businesses in supporting apprenticeships, we have created the institute and the employer panels, and we are giving huge financial incentives to businesses, especially small businesses, to ensure that they hire apprentices.
The Bill also introduces an insolvency regime for the further education sector that will, in the unlikely event of a college insolvency, provide clear-cut protections for learners to minimise disruption to their studies as far as possible, while offering certainty to creditors. During oral evidence, we heard from representatives of the Association of Colleges, Collab and others, who supported the insolvency regime and the protections that it includes for learners. Although there were issues about which the banks had questions, many spoke in support of the clarity provided by the proposed measures. Santander told us that it was keen to lend more to the further education sector, and said:
“On the Bill and the proposed insolvency regime, we are actually supportive of the clarity that they provide.”––[Official Report, Technical and Further Education Public Bill Committee, 22 November 2016; c. 38, Q41.]
Kelvin Hopkins
As the Minister will remember, I suggested in Committee that all colleges should have professionally qualified members with financial skills in both management and governorship, so that skilled eyes would be trained on the finances to ensure that at least mistakes were not made internally.
Robert Halfon
I accept the hon. Gentleman’s premise, but, as I think I said in Committee, I do not want to put a straitjacket on colleges. The principal of Blackpool and The Fylde College acknowledged that there might be different requirements for different colleges. Nevertheless, there should be as much financial expertise as possible in further education colleges. When there is real financial leadership, those colleges will always be in good financial health whatever the funding pressures.
We forecast that, by March 2017, we will have spent a total of about £140 million on propping up colleges facing extreme financial difficulties. That money should have been spent on education and training priorities. While we envisage that only a very small number of colleges will ever find themselves insolvent, providing protection for learners and clarity for creditors is a crucial part of what we are trying to do, and of our responsibility to support the sector.
Since the Committee stage, we have been in a position to publish for consultation the Secretary of State’s draft strategic guidance. Following our conversations about the importance of incorporating the views of students in the running of the institute, it will come as no surprise that the guidance sets out our firm expectation that the institute will establish an apprentice panel by April this year. The panel will report directly to the board, ensuring that the learner voice—the apprentice voice—is at the heart of the institute. I am glad that the hon. Member for Blackpool South (Gordon Marsden) is encouraged by our approach. We also intend to publish for consultation, before the institute becomes operational in April, an operational plan for the institute which will set out in more detail how it intends to carry out its functions.
As for the insolvency elements of the Bill, we discussed in Committee the protections given to students through the special objective, and the possible ways in which the education administrator could ensure that disruption to students’ studies was avoided or minimised. In particular, we discussed whether the particular regard that the education administrator must have to the needs of students with special educational needs and disabilities should be extended to any other groups. I also recognise the importance of taking account of the needs of care leavers, recognising that they may need additional personal or pastoral support to deal with any uncertainty or upheaval should their college ever be subject to insolvency. Such support is best provided for each individual by a local authority-assigned personal adviser. As I said earlier, we will take steps to ensure that the guidance being produced for local authorities on their corporate parenting responsibilities includes advice on the role of personal advisers in the event that the young people for whom they are responsible attend colleges that enter education administration.
There is much to be proud of in our current system, given that 71% of FE colleges are good or outstanding and more than 50% are in good financial health, the proportion of 16 to 18-year-olds in education or taking up apprenticeships is at a record high, the reforms made following the 2011 Wolf review have raised the quality of qualifications, and 88% of students were recorded as having a sustained education destination in the year after key stage 5.
We know that high-quality further education can have a truly transformative impact on young people. That is why we announced as part of the spending review that we will protect the 16-to-19 national base rate of £4,000 per student for the duration of this Parliament. By 2020, if we include the adult education budget, the 19-plus apprenticeship funding and advanced learner loans, more funding will be available to support adult further education participation than at any time in England’s history.
The measures in this Bill will build on the key priorities, enabling students to make better choices about their future, with the opportunity to gain qualifications valued by employers that will secure their future prosperity and that of our nation.
Rebecca Pow (Taunton Deane) (Con)
In my constituency we are very fortunate in having Richard Huish sixth-form college, which has just been shortlisted as one of the six best sixth-form colleges in the country for The Times award. It runs apprenticeship courses, but there are concerns that it cannot get enough students to apply for some of the business admin courses. There is a real demand from business for those students, yet there are loads of apprentices doing courses where business does not really have jobs for them. Does the Minister agree with me and the principal of the college that provisions in this Bill to develop the synergy between education, apprenticeships and business are welcome, and indeed vital in addressing the skills shortage in this country?
Robert Halfon
I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention, and she is absolutely right: everything this Government are doing—the apprenticeship levy, this Bill, FE and technical education reform, the drive up of standards, the encouragement of apprenticeships, the money we are putting in with £2.5 billion that will be doubled by 2020—is designed to solve the problems she has talked about.
The OECD has said about the skills plan that
“the UK has a promising plan to advance technical education from a last resort to a first choice.”
Colleges, too, have spoken highly of the plan, including the principal of my own Harlow College, who said:
“As colleges we are not just about courses, we are about careers—we therefore believe that any reform that brings us closer to employers means our students gain higher skills and better jobs.”
This Bill is a Ronseal Bill: it does what it says on the tin. It transforms the prestige and quality of apprenticeships and technical education in our country, addresses the skills deficit, protects students in the event that colleges face extreme financial difficulty, and ensures that the most disadvantaged are able to climb the ladder of opportunity. The Bill underlines the Prime Minister’s commitment to a country that works for everyone. I commend the Bill to the House.
Gordon Marsden
May I associate myself with the Minister’s comments in thanking the officials and all Committee members? I particularly thank my Labour colleagues, who did sterling work in supporting us on the Front Bench in Committee. May I also commend the support that the Public Bill Committee gave to us? The role of the Opposition in challenging the Government on these matters is sometimes equivalent to that of David taking on Goliath; we do manage occasionally to get a few slingshots in, and I am grateful on this occasion they have not incapacitated the Minister concerned.
This is an important Bill with some important provisions, which is why we have not opposed it on Second Reading or on Third Reading tonight. However, that does not mean that we do not continue to have profound concerns about its implementation, process and progress. That was indicated in the excellent, although relatively truncated, debate we had on the amendments, in the contributions of my hon. Friends the Members for Wolverhampton South West (Rob Marris), for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins), who is still here, for Gedling (Vernon Coaker), who gave an inspiring speech on the need for us to have vocational passions, and for Batley and Spen (Tracy Brabin), a relatively new Member of the House. All of them talked about practical issues such as implementation, about which we still have real concerns. This is not just a matter of formulae. For a long time—indeed, until it was almost too late—there were no links between higher education and further education in the way envisaged when the previous higher and further education legislation was brought forward.
I ask the Minister to reflect on a matter that is perhaps even more important. We have had a spirited discussion today about whether we need to have a strategy for careers advice in the Bill. We still believe that we do, and we think the Minister has missed a trick in that respect. The inclusion of such a strategy would have entrenched his position and his passion for careers advice, rather than diminishing it. The broader issue, however, is that the things that the Minister and everyone else would like to see happen are not solely a matter for the Department for Education. I know that he is as passionate about delivering traineeships as I am, but to do that we need to build structures and links between the DFE and the Department for Work and Pensions and to reach a concordance over the 16-hour law and other things. If the Government want to deliver careers advice, there will need to be a similar engagement and balancing act between the DWP and the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. These things cannot just be left in one particular box.
I pay tribute to the Minister for the passion that he has shown on apprenticeships, but the fact is that apprentices are still handicapped by a number of things on which the Government have yet to prove their bona fides. That includes issues relating to GCSEs in English and maths. I have heard encouraging words on that from the Secretary of State and the Minister, but they have not yet nailed that issue down and it will not go away unless there is a satisfactory solution to the often soul-destroying requirement to retake GCSEs in those subjects.
Apprentices do not work and exist in a vacuum. The question of how their families are supported—through child benefit and in other ways—needs to be looked at, not just by the Department for Education but by other Departments as well. If that does not happen, there will be a real problem. Our new clause on this matter was ruled not to be within the scope of the Bill, but this is still a really important issue.
Mention was made in passing of devolution. I do not want to go into that issue much further tonight, but the Government need to think very clearly about it. They are going ahead with the devo-max process for combined authorities, yet the structures in the Bill do not reflect the reality of what the delivery of adult education, and possibly apprenticeships, will be like. Personally, I do not think that we can have a proper long-term skills strategy on a localised basis without taking apprenticeships into account as well as adult education. That point has not been addressed in the Bill.
The Minister has talked about insolvencies, and I associate myself with his view that it is a minority issue in regard to further education colleges. Let us pray that it continues to be so. However, it is worth remembering that the Bill is being introduced in the context of a period of profound funding cuts in the FE sector. The Government need to address the fact that that is the context in which they have decided to introduce this standalone Technical and Further Education Bill. The Minister also mentioned travel support. I note in passing that if the Government had taken up our proposals on education maintenance allowance, the process might perhaps have been speedier.
I want to return to the question of how the provisions will be delivered, and the timescale involved. It is three months until the apprenticeship levy funding kicks in. We still do not know who the new chief executive of the institute will be, and we do not know about the board. We have had some progress on those issues today, but we are told, for example, that the Skills Funding Agency will stay in charge of the new register of apprenticeships, which raises genuine bewilderment among many people out there—the Minister will have seen the comments made to FE Week in the past couple of days on this subject—as to why it is not Ofqual, if not IFATE, that is administering the register of approved apprenticeship assessment organisations. Is the real reason why the SFA is doing this because it is basically the civil service and that it would give a reserve power to Ministers to micromanage? It is not a question of what the Minister might do but what some of his successors might do.
Those important issues will need to be reflected on in the other place. Two key issues still remain. Will the funding and the staffing numbers that were dragged out of the Government when Peter Lauener spoke to the Committee be adequate for all the responsibilities? I would say that it is doubtful at this stage. How arm’s length or genuinely independent of judgment will the new institute be, or will Whitehall still be micromanaging the strings? Those are not just petty issues. They are issues that, if not resolved properly, will not gain the full-hearted consent of stakeholders, providers and all the people whom the Minister needs, and we all need, in order to meet the targets and to make his aspirations and my aspirations for apprenticeships for the next generation a reality.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.
Technical and Further Education Bill
Tuesday 10th January 2017
(7 years, 10 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Technical and Further Education Act 2017 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Consideration of Bill Amendments as at 9 January 2017 - (9 Jan 2017)
Technical and Further Education Bill
Wednesday 1st February 2017
(7 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Technical and Further Education Act 2017 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Consideration of Bill Amendments as at 9 January 2017 - (9 Jan 2017)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Lord Nash) (Con)
My Lords, first, I express my gratitude to noble Lords who have already attended meetings with me and the Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills, Robert Halfon, or who have met with officials from my department to discuss the Bill. Across those meetings, there has been support for the principles underpinning the Bill. I welcome this and look forward to working with noble Lords to scrutinise the detail of the Bill to ensure that it meets our shared ambitions.
The Technical and Further Education Bill aims to build a high-quality technical education system that rivals the best in the world, providing the core skills our country needs to thrive. The measures in the technical education part of the Bill take forward the recommendations made in the independent review by the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury of Turville, and indeed support the work of the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf of Dulwich, to increase the prestige and value of technical education. Currently, the technical option is undervalued —the poor relation to its academic cousin. Too often, those choosing technical education find that it does not provide a clear route to employment or equip them with the skills they need to get the job they aspire to.
The measures in the Bill will work to provide a genuine choice between a technical or academic route, whereby people can feel confident that either route will equip them for sustained employment. Indeed, when the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury of Turville, gave evidence in the first committee session during the Bill’s passage through the other place, he talked of the international lessons to be learned about parity of esteem between technical and academic routes:
“In most of the successful countries you find the two routes are equally well valued, so there is not a problem of the technical education route being considered inferior. You can have these two routes and both of them be highly valued”.—[Official Report, Commons, Technical and Further Education Bill Committee, 22/11/16; col. 13.]
That is what we are trying to achieve.
The technical education measures in the Bill extend the role of the Institute for Apprenticeships to give it responsibility for classroom-based technical education in addition to apprenticeships. It will be renamed the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education. The institute will put employers at the heart of the technical education system, empowering them to identify the knowledge, skills and behaviours needed for particular occupations. This fundamental shift in the way that technical training courses are designed will enable people to get themselves into employment and provide our country with the skilled workforce it needs.
Part 2 sets out, for the first time, a clear process to be followed in the unlikely event of a further education college insolvency. These measures were carefully developed through consultation over the summer of last year. They apply the normal insolvency procedures to colleges, and in so doing provide much needed clarity for creditors, which they have welcomed. But, importantly, the Bill puts in place protections for students through the introduction of a special administration regime that will have the special objective of avoiding or minimising disruption to the studies of existing students at affected colleges. These measures will ensure that students are protected if a college becomes insolvent.
That is not to say that we expect this process to be regularly used. The current programme of area reviews is well under way, working to put the further education sector on a better and more sustainable financial footing for the future. Part of the review process is to encourage colleges to consider needs and provision locally. That will help to ensure that the right provision is available in the right places. As I said, we do not anticipate that the proposed insolvency regime will be used often, but it is necessary to introduce greater rigour to the further education sector. We forecast that we will have spent approaching £140 million propping up failing colleges by March this year—money we can ill afford to spend.
Being clear that we will no longer bail out colleges that become insolvent will encourage improved financial management in FE colleges which may have performed less well in the past. We know from schools that, often, those running poorly financially also do so educationally, so we can expect to see a further benefit in improved educational performance.
Part 3 includes a measure to amend existing legislation to ensure that, after the devolution of further education functions and the adult education budget to a combined authority, FE providers and others will continue to submit relevant information to the national data system. This will ensure the continued availability of relevant data needed to make intelligent and strategic policy decisions about investment in further education.
The Bill received constructive challenge in the other place and, although it was not amended, we made changes to our approach outside the Bill on the basis of that challenge. I welcome the further scrutiny that this Chamber will provide, and I look forward to hearing the views of noble Lords as the Bill makes progress through your Lordships’ House. The reforms in it will ensure that we improve the skills base in our country, increase economic productivity and protect students, while encouraging greater rigour regarding the finances of the further education sector. I beg to move.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)
My Lords, it is a pleasure to welcome back the noble Lord, Lord Nash. We have missed his wit, his repartee and his general joie de vivre during the long hours that we have spent on the Higher Education and Research Bill. However, perhaps we should acknowledge his skills at delegation, because he has certainly dodged a bullet with that monster of a Bill and its 500-plus amendments.
I also welcome for the first time the noble Baroness, Lady Vere, to her position as a Whip on an education Bill. We know that she has the credentials but she has a hard act to follow: the last noble Baroness to hold that position used it as a launch pad directly into the Cabinet—so there is no pressure there.
We turn to our consideration of a Bill that is rather more modest than the one to which I have just referred, although not in terms of its aims, because it is hoped that it will have far-reaching consequences for those young people largely outwith the scope of the Higher Education and Research Bill. We are broadly supportive of what the Bill aims to achieve, although we believe that it will benefit from being strengthened in several areas. Labour presided over a significant expansion of further education, allowing thousands of young people across the UK to develop new skills and gain valuable qualifications. We continue to believe in the value of apprenticeships and that students should be able to choose from a range of quality courses.
The Bill contains proposals to implement measures contained in the post-16 skills plan, as the Minister said, and it also allows for an insolvency regime and anticipates the devolution of the adult education budget to combined authorities. All that is well and good but none of those issues can be divorced from the current financial health of the sector. By the sector, I mean post-16 education and training in general, which is very much the poor relation when compared with the funding directed at 11 to 16 year-olds and, indeed, higher education. The average funding per student in the sixth forms of schools and academies and in sixth-form colleges is now 20% less per pupil than the funding received to educate each 11 to 16-year-old and 47% less than the average university tuition fee. Perhaps the Minister can explain why it should cost so much less to educate a 16 to 18 year-old than a 15 year-old or a 19 year-old.
Despite what the Minister said in his opening remarks, the facts are that the sector is inadequately funded. Over the past five years, funding has seen a real-terms reduction of 14%. The allocation for 2015-16 fell further as a result of the 2015 summer budget, which reduced the non-apprenticeship part of the adult skills budget by an additional 3.9%. The worry is that the ongoing area reviews could move beyond the mergers announced so far and lead to actual further education college closures.
However, it is not only further education colleges that are feeling the strain. Last September, the Sixth Form Colleges Association reported that two-thirds had dropped courses as a result of funding pressures and three-quarters had limited the size of their study programmes. Eighteen months ago, the National Audit Office reported that more than 100 colleges had run a deficit in 2013-14. No doubt that was a major motivation for the Government in framing Chapter 2 of the Bill, which deals in some detail with the consequences of insolvency—however unlikely, as the Minister said, that may be, as I certainly hope is the case.
The Bill takes an important new step in outlining the college-specific insolvency regime and should bring greater certainty through a clear legal framework. Having a new type of administrator with responsibility for handling cases and to work to protect the interests of students is important. During insolvency, colleges would either be kept going or students would be transferred to an alternative provider, but we would like assurances that the proceedings do not disproportionately impact on students from low-income backgrounds, nor deprive teaching staff of a fair redundancy deal or access to their pensions.
The question is: why should such provisions be necessary? Prevention is surely always better than cure, and we believe that it would have been much more sensible, and indeed far sighted, had the Government decided to fund the sector adequately—on even, say, 75% of the rate per student in the higher education sector—rather than needing to prepare a large supply of sticking plasters ready to apply if and when accidents happen.
Although the Minister may dismiss criticism from these Benches, he cannot so easily do that with regard to non-political bodies such as the Institute for Fiscal Studies. Two days ago, that body warned that the Government’s target to increase the number of apprentices risks being “poor value for money”, suggesting that increasing the number of apprenticeships could come at the expense of quality. It expressed concern that the apprenticeship levy and its targets risk repeating the mistakes of recent decades by encouraging employers and training providers to relabel current activity and seek subsidy rather than seeking the best training. These are serious concerns that we believe the Government need to address.
As I stated earlier, further education is the poor relation in education. I take no pleasure in saying that it seems to be the poor relation in your Lordships’ House too. Only 17 Back-Benchers have thought it worth while participating in this debate. Two months ago, five times that number took part in the Second Reading of the Higher Education and Research Bill, most, it has to be said, prefacing their remarks by declaring interests if not as practising academics then as chancellors, masters, members of court or holders of other senior positions in institutions. I mean no disrespect to noble Lords in the Chamber when I wonder how many will be required to do likewise today. However, we do have among us two former Secretaries of State for Education, as well as the redoubtable noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, whose reports of 2011 and 2016 contain much sage advice.
The Minister will no doubt refer me to the figures mentioned by the Government on what is being spent on apprenticeships. A figure of £1.5 billion is not to be dismissed—and we do not dismiss it—and of course the apprenticeship levy is expected to realise a further £2.9 billion by 2020. However, I have to say in passing that, although we on these Benches applaud the Government’s initiative in introducing the levy, few employers have done likewise. It is at least interesting to speculate what would have happened had a Labour Chancellor made that decision. I suspect we would have been labelled “anti-business” by the Government’s friends in the media. However, despite squeals from some employers, it seems that the Mail, the Telegraph and the Sun have been strangely uncritical.
The institute will have responsibility for the regulation of all technical learning and for implementing the post-16 skills plan and the 15 technical routes, stemming from the report by the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury. But will the institute have adequate resources? It has not even come into operation yet but already it will have its remit increased from April 2018. Various major players in the sector, such as the Association of Colleges, the Sixth Form Colleges Association and the University and College Union, have concerns as to whether it will have the capacity to manage its new responsibilities effectively. It will be required to improve access and quality in the apprenticeship programme, while redesigning technical qualifications and establishing the employer panels. At the last count, the institute had 40 employees. Even with the best will in the world and a great deal of overtime, that seems a tall order. The Minister would ease many of the concerns by assuring noble Lords that additional resources, not least staff, will be made available to the institute.
There is also the issue of a crowded field when it comes to oversight. The Bill provides for roles for the institute, Ofsted, Ofqual and the Office for Students. Ofqual regulates English and maths qualifications, which will form an important part of the technical education programmes regulated by the institute, which also has overlaps with the OfS and Ofsted. These issues will need to be resolved, and we will look to progress that in Committee.
Further, there is the question of representation on the institute’s board. We do not question the proposal that it should be employer-led, but there should also be a presence from the sector itself, in the form of the colleges, the staff who work in them and those who are learning—both apprentices and students. The institute will be required to establish an apprentice panel and, next year, a technical students panel. The mechanism for doing so remains to be agreed, but these panels will be ideally placed to have a representative on the institute board. Again, these are issues that will exercise us in Committee.
Clause 23 and Schedule 2 make provision for the transfer of college property and assets in the event of administration. Colleges and their estates are significant public assets which we believe should remain in the public sector for the benefit of local communities. We require assurances from the Minister that public assets will not be transferred to private, for-profit companies. This issue is one that he will recall me raising with him with regard to academies, and the potential pitfalls are similar. Academies are permitted to dispose of public land only with the express permission of the Secretary of State, and I anticipate the Minister will offer similar assurance as regards colleges. But we will seek additional protection to ensure that public assets are kept in public ownership. One means of achieving that could be to give the local authority special status as having a significant interest in the continuation of education in its area.
We know that careers advice in schools is rarely of the standard necessary to give young people the full range of options open to them. Too often, schools simply want as many of their students as possible to go on to university because it looks good in the figures they present to the Department for Education. However, it ignores the fact that for many young people a vocational or technical route is much more appropriate and probably more rewarding in both senses of the word.
There is also a need for further education students to receive careers advice and I have looked to see what the Bill has to say on that. A word search produced precisely nothing. I checked the Explanatory Notes—nothing. How can that be? A careers and enterprise company was established by the Government with a £90 million budget for this parliamentary term to provide this sort of advice. It has a remit for further education as well as schools and yet many colleges are not covered by it, and none in London. Why is coverage not universal? Surely that is the ultimate aim. We need a timescale for that to happen and it should be quick. I hope the Minister will be able to answer that question in his closing remarks but, if not, again he will be invited to answer it in Committee.
One word that appears regularly throughout the Bill is “regulations”. It seems that every Bill we consider with a connection to education has that word running through it like a stick of Blackpool rock. Here we have provisions for the Government to issue regulations on a variety of topics, from disqualification of further education college governors to the fees that can be charged by the institute, and from college insolvencies to the transfer of property and other assets. I have said consistently in the past that much too much legislation is of a secondary nature and we shall see what the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee of your Lordships’ House has to say about this Bill. On past form it can be anticipated that it will not be enamoured of it.
There is so much background available on apprenticeships and technical education that it is difficult to keep abreast of it. Only last week we had the latest entry into that territory in the shape of the industrial strategy White Paper and the suggestion that there should be technical universities, whatever that might turn out to be. I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Baker, had a wry chuckle when he heard that, given his role in establishing city technical colleges three decades ago. As ever, I await his contribution with great interest.
We shall adopt a constructive approach to the Bill in Committee. In presenting Labour’s case for a stronger technical and further education sector, our Front Bench team want to shape the Bill so that it increases the options available to students and delivers the safeguards needed to allow colleges to deliver quality teaching. The sector and those it prepares for working life deserve nothing less.
Lord Storey (LD)
My Lords, I welcome this thin Bill. I have always been concerned about how we regard technical and vocational education in this country; we are obsessed with young people having to fulfil an academic route. It is almost akin to failure if you do not succeed academically. I am not keen on the word “vocational”, and I do not think parents understand what it means. It is like saying, “I am doing it for love, not money”. Teaching was a vocation. I am pleased that the word is not being used.
If we are to develop a country which provides first-class skills, we need to enhance the status of technical education. Like the noble Lord, Lord Watson, I reflected—a word that was apparently much in use during the Higher Education and Research Bill—that we had 69 speakers at Second Reading for that Bill, while for the Technical and Further Education Bill we have 20. Does that not say something about our regard for this subject?
The Secretary of State said at Second Reading—this is important—that,
“half—last year, most—of our young people, often those from disadvantaged backgrounds will choose not to go to university, but to follow a less purely less academic route, or perhaps one that plays to individual strengths, talents and interests”.—[Official Report, 14/11/16; col. 41.]
The key to all this is not only providing a first-class academic, technical or further education but ensuring that young people know what the routes are, what they can do and what careers they might choose. Mike Tomlinson said at a recent Edge Foundation meeting on the EBacc that careers education is at best “pretty b….. awful”, and he is absolutely right. We pretend that we do careers education, but we do not: “There is a cupboard with some books in”, “Here is the latest government initiative”, and “here is what work we might do”. These are young people whose futures are in our hands so we have a responsibility to make sure that first-class technical education is available to them. If we want technical and further education to work, we must have effective careers guidance.
I understand that the Government are shortly going to announce their strategy. That is good, but any strategy, policy or provision is effective only if there is some regulatory support behind it, whether that is through Ofsted inspections, accreditation or a kitemark; nothing less will do. My own view is that a school, whether it is an academy, a maintained or a free school, should be described as “outstanding” or “good” only if its careers education is up to scratch.
The other problem we face with careers education is financial. The head teachers of maintained schools, academies and free schools are anxious to hold on to their students. They want them to move on into the sixth form because they are each worth a sum of money. They do not want them to go off to one of the UTCs of the noble Lord, Lord Baker, or an FE college because they will then be lost. Even if students are struggling academically the cry is, “Keep them in the sixth form. Let them repeat a subject and try again”. That is no way to deal with young people. We need to think outside the box about this. Why, for example, cannot UTCs and FE colleges have the right to go into schools and show students what is on offer? If schools are not prepared to do this in terms of careers advice, the colleges and UTCs should do it themselves.
Some people have referred to this legislation rather sarcastically as the “insolvency Bill”. I do not particularly go along with that, but there are issues with insolvency, some of which we will no doubt come to in various amendments. Again as the noble Lord, Lord Watson, has just said, if, God forbid, an establishment becomes insolvent, we need to make sure that protections are in place in terms of the real estate and the property, as well as for students and for courses. If a student in Northumberland is travelling 20 or 30 miles to their further education college—there is in this an issue about transport costs, and so on—and the course suddenly stops because of insolvency, what is the student to do, for goodness’ sake? We need to make sure that students and courses are supported and protected. Some colleges are already having difficulties regarding the banks’ willingness to lend to them and pension funds tightening their regulations because they are worried, so we need to make sure that those issues are addressed.
The noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, said in her excellent report, Review of Vocational Education, that at least 350,000 young people have been let down by courses which have,
“little or no labour market value”.
Young people are taking courses that are of little or no value in the labour market. I can remember when we got objective 1 funding in my own city of Liverpool. We filled the FE colleges with courses that were not relevant to our skills needs, such as hairdressing and beautician work. Both were fantastic, but actually they did not help the economy of the city one iota. However, the college was able to attract students because for some reason there was a certain cachet about taking a hairdressing or beautician’s course. As the Wolf report says, we need to make sure that the courses on offer are relevant.
We welcome the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education and we are delighted that the Government have listened and included FE in the institute’s role. I had not realised, and was quite surprised to learn, that we have already announced the membership of the institute. I thought we would have had to wait for the Bill to pass. I am not sure how this happens. I am delighted that we have included two people from further education.
That is good news. The Minister looks puzzled, but I was told this by someone this morning. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, indicates that I am right. Although I might be puzzled as to why this has been set up ahead of the Bill, I do not mind because we have included two people from the further education sector. That is good. I hope that that same principle will apply to the implementation routes and that we will include the FE sector in those as well. We need to understand how bridging between routes will be achieved. No doubt we will also want to understand in Committee how the transition year will work in practice, and where work experience might fit into this.
We constantly talk about social mobility—rightly so. We have talked about our world-class education system. Our Prime Minister has talked about a country that works for everyone. If a student goes into higher education between the ages of 18 and 21, their family gets tax credits. They get free prescriptions, free dental care, free eye tests, et cetera. When a young person— often from a disadvantaged background—takes an apprenticeship, which will of course include an element of training so in a sense they are still learning, the family loses out on tax credits. That is often a major disincentive for young people, particularly those from deprived backgrounds, to take up the apprenticeship. I hope the Minister will look at how we can support those families. We are talking about people we really want to attract. We want to get them on the road to employment.
The needs of the Cornish economy are different from those of Liverpool’s, so I welcome the fact that we are devolving some of the authority to a local level. Part 3 includes a measure to amend existing legislation to ensure that we devolve further education functions and adult education budgets to the combined authorities, if and when they are established. But as the National Audit Office reported, there is a growing financial crisis in further education. Indeed, it was its report that recommended the creation of an insolvency regime. We need another “I”—investment.
Another issue that we will explore in Committee is that if a young person is training on the job—doing their apprenticeships and getting their training at the same time, at their place of work—we need to ensure the quality of the training provided. From speaking to the Government about that, we have been told that Ofsted will probably do sample inspections. We need to be careful that this is absolutely right.
To conclude, I quote again the Secretary of State for Education, who said at Commons Second Reading:
“The Government want to build on what exists in the further and technical education sector and steadily create a gold standard of technical education … that students can be confident that … they will be building towards a successful career”.—[Official Report, Commons, 14/11/16; col. 43.]
I think we all say “Hear, hear” to that, but it requires the Government to listen and to commitment the resources.
Baroness Wolf of Dulwich (CB)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his very kind words about my work on vocational and technical education, and the noble Lords, Lord Watson and Lord Storey, for their kind comments. I welcome the Bill for reasons I will discuss. I declare an interest as a member of the Independent Panel on Technical Education, chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury of Turville. Many of its recommendations went into the Government’s skill plan and some are now encapsulated in the Bill, particularly those in Schedule 1 that deal with the institute.
The reason why I am particularly delighted to see this Bill—which, happily, is quite slender compared with the higher education Bill—is that, after many years of well-meaning but in the end pretty empty rhetoric, we are now aware that we need to do something as a country about our technical education system which is serious, immediate and properly thought out. For years, we have had a rather bizarre approach—I do not want to call it market-led—whereby government tried to achieve quantity over quality, with a huge number of qualifications; if there were 50 awarding bodies today, then 100 awarding bodies tomorrow would be even better. It was a very strange system. One result was that we reduced the quality and credibility of our technical and vocational system. That had been very good—it is not that this country never had a good system; it had a good system of apprenticeships and it destroyed it. Instead, we have on the one hand gone for this rather strange approach of “more, more, more and never mind the quality” while, on the other, being increasingly obsessed with growing a very uniform higher education system. In that, we are almost unique in the world in trying to have a single, huge university system in which all institutions do everything. If you compare that system with just about any other country, you will be very struck by the fact that, elsewhere, there has either been maintained or established a strong and distinctive technical route which is high-status in and of itself.
It is more than time that we did something to re-create this. We have effectively destroyed any high-quality, tertiary technical offer—it is what in the business they call level 4 and 5, but for the rest of us it is the stuff you do after age 18. I believe that the Government are genuinely committed to re-creating that. This Bill is one of the major steps towards it, and I hope that it along with the industrial strategy and the policies introduced there mark the beginning of a serious reversal of years of decay. I look forward to looking in detail at the individual clauses in Committee.
I do not want to say any more now about the general importance of the Bill—I know that other speakers, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Baker, will be able to speak with enormous eloquence about the importance of this part of our education system. Instead, I want to talk about the insolvency aspects of the Bill, because I welcome those, too. I do so because one thing happening in our societies is a move towards near-universal involvement in tertiary education. In our country, we have moved at a remarkable rate to a quite extreme position in how far we fund tertiary education via student loans. We are very unusual in the degree to which we now use student loans and in the proportion of our funding that comes from them. Everything that I see in the Government’s proposals indicates that this will be increasingly the funding mechanism for non-university tertiary education, including post-18 further education, just as it has been in the higher education sector.
We need to recognise in this context the duty of government to carry out its role as a guarantor of quality. One of the earliest things that Governments existed to do was to ensure that weights and measures were true. A modern version of that is ensuring that the qualifications which government offers to its young and adult people are good and saying, “We will give you a loan if you take that”, thereby implying that the quality is good. It has a duty to ensure that, if anything goes wrong, it as the weights and measures guarantor and the underwriter of the loans protects the people to whom it has made an implicit and explicit promise of quality and of endurance. One of the very obvious things when you look at the modern tertiary scene is that, far too often, individuals enrol on courses or take out loans believing that they have that implicit or explicit promise from government but then find that this is not necessarily the case. Obviously, at the moment this is a minority issue but as we move to a larger and more heterogeneous tertiary system it will become more important that government explicitly recognises that duty.
I entirely agree with the noble Lords, Lord Watson and Lord Storey, that one reason why we need an education administration regime in further education is that the whole sector is crazily underfunded and expected to do things on a smaller scale than we do for 14 or 15 year-olds. Again, that is extraordinary and almost unique. It is hardly the way to guarantee high-quality technical education. However, whether or not that is the case, it is absolutely right that a Government providing a publicly supported education system should also have a system in which, if things go wrong, there is an administrator whose job it is to avoid or minimise disruption to the studies of existing students in the further education body as a whole. Where necessary, the administrator should rescue and maintain that institution as a going concern until people finish their studies. I really welcome the recognition in the Bill that this is a duty of government. I wish that the Government recognised that same duty with respect to both higher education and private providers of training. It should be of enormous concern to all of us in the House that that is not the case.
Just a week or two ago, in talking on the higher education Bill, I related what happened with an alternative provider of higher education, the London School of Business and Finance, which lost its tier 4 authority. You had these heartbreaking stories of students who had paid money and assumed that this would be a safe thing to do. As one said, “I did not expect this to happen in the UK”. Suddenly, they found their course collapsing around them. Just last week, it was clear that there would be a major issue around a failed private training provider, John Frank Training, which, a few months after returning record profits, collapsed into bankruptcy. Again, more than 500 people took loans to start courses with this training provider. While it is absolutely right and welcome that the Bill introduces an education administration regime for further education colleges—I truly welcome that—I would like the Government to consider as a matter of urgency why there is not a comparable regime for people in other parts of the tertiary system, including private providers of training funded by the Skills Funding Agency or the Student Loans Company, and higher education.
In conclusion, I am absolutely delighted that the Government brought this Bill to the House. This could be an important moment for the skills base of this country, for technical education as a high-status route and for a tertiary system that is fit for purpose rather than dominated by the idea that the only thing you need is a three-year bachelor’s degree. I very much hope that in the months ahead the Government will build on this and go further, recognising even more explicitly their duty to the students and the borrowers of this country, to whom they made a promise.
Lord Baker of Dorking (Con)
My Lords, I welcome the Bill. It was very gratifying to hear from the noble Lords, Lord Watson of Invergowrie and Lord Storey, that there is agreement on all sides of the House that we want a better apprenticeship system.
Any assessment of an apprenticeship system and further education should really start from an assessment of what the skills gap is. I was rather surprised that the Government’s industrial strategy document never attempted to estimate the size of that gap because, if we do not have skilled workers, it will not matter what industrial strategy we adopt. It simply will not be fulfilled.
Distressingly, the gap is growing greater year by year. In 2016, a CBI survey revealed that 69% of its members were,
“concerned about not being able to fill highly-skilled”,
jobs. That had gone up from 55% in 2015, so within a year it rose quite dramatically. None of us were really aware of this being one of the problems in the skills area. Another report says that in construction in 2016, employers were,
“struggling to fill one in … three”,
places for skilled vacancies, which had increased from one in four in 2013.
Those vacancies were at the skilled labouring end of the skills gap but if you start at the top end with STEM graduates, the gap is even greater. The Royal Academy of Engineering forecast three years ago that we would need an extra 45,000 STEM graduates each year up until 2020 and we are just not meeting that. This year in Davos, the number of STEM graduates around the world was estimated and there was an interesting circular diagram, which showed that two-thirds of STEM graduates today come from two countries in the world: India and China. That is a clear indication of where the wealth of the world is going to go over the next 20 or 30 years. America came a distant third and I barely found where we were; we were a statistical blip. We were barely there on STEM graduates. The Government clearly must, first, improve the teaching of maths dramatically in our country because unless they do we will not get an increase in STEM graduates. I know that they have various proposals to do that but the importance of this cannot be exaggerated.
It is not only in mathematics. A report from the House of Commons last year stated that the shortage of skilled digital technicians was 745,000. When I went to see the chief executive of John Lewis, Charlie Mayfield, I wanted to speak about food technology because the university technical colleges doing that subject knew nothing about it. He was not very interested in that. He said that his big problem was that he could not recruit enough computer scientists to run his business, which is hugely logistical and requires very sophisticated computer skills. He could not get them from the English educational system.
Estonia’s largest export is in fact computer scientists. Estonia is able to do that because it has had coding in schools for about 20 years. We are starting coding in primary schools this year, and it is done very patchily. The teachers obviously cannot teach it and have to get other people in to do it. There should be coding in every school. Every secondary school should have computing as a compulsory subject at GCSE but we do not have that and, as a result, when it came to the GCSE subjects last July 300,000 took a foreign language and only 60,000 took computing. I believe it is more important for students to understand a computer language than to pick up the smatterings of a foreign language. We are on the absolute threshold and dawn of a digital age and youngsters must have that ability.
To see how far we are from America, I say that the chief executive of Microsoft is an Indian, Satya Nadella, who decided to set up a team to develop artificial intelligence and build a new operating system. The team that he set up had 5,000 computer engineers. We simply could not do that in Britain; frankly, it could not even be done in Europe. There is a huge need for investment in computing and digital skills, which are all part of the later stages of apprenticeship.
I certainly welcome the creation of the Institute for Apprenticeships, which could become a powerful body. By the way, I am very impressed by the quality of the first eight directors and I congratulate the Government on that. They are an impressive bunch of people and I know a couple of them, who are independent people with great experience. I am thinking in particular of Toby Peyton-Jones, the HR director of Siemens. He is a trustee of one of my educational charities and has great knowledge of apprenticeships and the needs of British industry.
The institute could become not just an administrative body, although it will have an administrative function. It will look at apprenticeships around the country. It will try to weed out the ones that are not very good or are weak. It will look at the range of technical qualifications, try to get some sense into it and eliminate those that are not necessary. That is the administrative job, but I think the institute should also have a policy job. It should have a policy overview of the whole system and report to this House and the other place once a year, on not just its administrative functions but on its reflections on the whole system and how effective it is. This means that the Government will have much less influence over the policy. The Government are not funding apprenticeships. Industry is funding apprenticeships, so the Government should keep their hands off a little bit and leave them to the experts in the area. I certainly welcome that role.
I have some comments on the age for apprenticeships. I would welcome a return to what the Labour Government had: apprenticeships for 14 year-olds. The coalition Government stopped them, and that was a mistake. In the university technical college movement, we have discovered that at 14 youngsters are quite able to realise where their talents and interests lie and what subjects they would like to study. There are lots of 13 and 14 year-olds at school who are very fed up with the range of subjects they are studying. They become very disengaged and would like the opportunity to become youthful apprentices. I believe in the future. This is not a decision for the Minister. If I were to move an amendment and the Minister were to say, “The Government do not approve”, I hope he realises that it is not for the Government to approve. It is for the institute to decide this matter in future. If it decides on this, it should be done, and I would welcome that.
During the Industrial Revolution nearly all the great inventors started an apprenticeship at 14. James Watt started an apprenticeship at 14 as an instrument maker. Josiah Wedgwood was bound to his brother for five years as a master potter. He had very interesting conditions in his indenture, which I am not recommending should be put into apprenticeships for 14 year-olds. It said that:
“At Cards, Dice or any unlawful Games he shall not Play,
Taverns or Ale Houses he shall not haunt or frequent
Fornication he shall not commit—
Matrimony he shall not Contract”.
Those articles produced a very great man, but if we tried it today we would not reach 3 million apprentices by the time of the next election. I certainly favour apprenticeships for 14 year-olds.
The real test of the apprenticeship movement is how many people become apprentices at 16 or 18. The record is not very good. Last year, the number of 16 year-olds went down. The House may know that in 2015 there were 500,000 apprenticeships, but only 5,000 were at 16 to 18 studying at level 3 or above. This is the point made by the noble Baroness about levels 4, 5 and 6. Level 4 is diploma level, level 5 is foundation degree level and level 6 is an honours degree. That is where the skills gap is, not at level 2. It is essentially at levels 4, 5 and 6. Only around 5,000 of 500,000 apprentices were doing that at 18, which is 1.04%. I am very proud that university technical colleges provide a great deal of those apprentices. At 18, our youngsters are eligible to be higher apprentices because they have an academic subject, such as an A-level in maths, physics or life sciences, and a technical subject, such as a BTEC extended diploma. They are therefore highly employable. Many of them become higher apprentices. In the bigger companies, they earn salaries of £15,000 to £20,000 a year and they usually study for a foundation degree. The Royal Navy, which has adopted UTCs, is desperately short of technicians and engineers and cannot currently man aircraft carriers. It introduced 18 higher apprenticeship places last September, 130 people applied, and 16 of those places went to UTC candidates. It was offering a salary, by the way, of £28,500 for hired apprentices. These are the apprenticeships which are definitely worth having and which we must encourage. I believe quite a lot of apprenticeships go to older workers in their 20s and 30s, who are already employed. I do not believe those should be called apprentices, as it is really adult training and retraining. I am not against that—there should be a lot of it—but to give them the name of apprenticeships is completely wrong.
There is much to be done, although I support the Bill, as I say. I intend to move one amendment which will improve the Bill enormously, in my view, dealing with career advice. How are you to get knowledge of apprenticeships over to youngsters? You cannot expect the schools to tell them, because teachers leave their schools, go to teacher training colleges and then straight into teaching. They have no experience of government, industry and commerce, or of apprenticeships. I will move an amendment which will allow the providers of apprenticeships, along with the heads of university technical colleges, studio schools and FE colleges, to go into schools at 13, 16 and 18 to explain to the students what they can then study—the alternative offerings. Career advice in our country generally is quite appalling.
I am glad to say that the amendment has the support of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, and the noble Lord, Lord Storey, from the Liberal Democrats, as well as of several Conservative Members, so I expect it to pass. I hope the Minister is listening—I think some days he is very favourable to the idea, but I can assure him that it will pass and will improve the knowledge available to many young people in our schools. We simply have to improve technical education in our country, as we are not doing it very well at the moment. The whole education system concentrates on academic subjects, whereas jobs, based on employability, go to those who have technical skills. Apprenticeships are part of that, but not the only part.
Baroness Morris of Yardley (Lab)
My Lords, I draw attention to my entry in the register of interests. I chair the education advisory board for McDonald’s, which oversees its apprenticeship programme. I too welcome the Bill and hope it is not just optimism that at last, we are going to do something about this: I hope this is the time for legislation that really moves apprenticeships and technical education forward. Like my Front-Bench spokesperson, I will want to look at some of the detail of the Bill, but we wish it well and hope it changes the world for a huge section of our community.
I share a previous speaker’s analysis of why the Bill is so badly needed, in terms of the productivity rate and how we have let down so many young people and adults who wanted to succeed. For all the strength of our education system, we have failed to get technical, vocational—I do not mind that word—and apprenticeship education right. It is the only area of our education system where we used to do better years ago than we do now. I do not buy into the idea that education used to be better 20 or 30 years ago, but this area probably was better 40 or 50 years ago. We need to rediscover the good things that happened then and shape them for the world in which we live.
The concern I would like to explore with the Minister today and in Committee is whether the Government are absolutely sure about how these proposals differ from previous attempts. It is not that Governments have done nothing for the last 20 years—they have put resources, leadership, energy and legislative time into trying to make things happen, but it has not been good enough. The success has not been there, such that we can say, “The job is done”. Looking back at my role at the Department for Education and Skills, and at what we thought the sector skills councils would do when we launched them towards the end of my time as Secretary of State, I would just pick out these words from 2002 to 2006. The councils would be “employer-led industry or business sector-based”. They would be “charged with identifying the sector’s present and future skills needs, ensuring that qualifications and training meet these needs” and “place employers and workplace centre stage”. There is not a world of difference between those words and the publicity for this Bill, which I have heard the Minister—believing it—say out loud.
I do not want us to get this wrong again, and it behoves us to be clear about what is different now. This is not the first time we have had an employer-led skills programme, tried to do apprenticeships, or let business work out the framework for technical and vocational qualifications; but previously, we did not do it well enough. I want to be sure that we learn from that during the Bill’s passage. I hope the collective memory of the Department for Education is still strong and that it and the Minister have gone through what was successful and what did not work, because he does not need to start from scratch. He needs to build on what we have learned and our successes.
One thing that makes me optimistic is that there is a helpful national climate. As we all know, sometimes in politics, timing is everything. You introduce something at one point and it does not fly. You introduce it at another and it has wind behind its sails and makes a real difference. In the world at large, I think there is now a greater acceptance that technical and apprenticeship routes to employment, and life chances, are good and could be better. We have not got to the stage where everybody wants their children to do that rather than go to university, but there are now chinks in the argument—it is a good choice for young people.
I acknowledge the Government’s support: they have put this issue high on their agenda. From what I hear from the Minister in the House today, his boss the Secretary of State, and others, they mean to get this issue right. It is not an also-ran in the Department for Education, and that is important. Established organisations such as the university technology colleges, founded by the noble Lord, Lord Baker, were not around when we tried this 10 years ago, and I hope they will enable us to get it right.
So I am optimistic, but we have to be rigorous in asking ourselves some difficult questions. This might be an opportunity to get this right. If the noble Baroness, Lady Woolf, thinks this is a better chance of getting it right than we have ever had before, then I feel optimistic, because her judgment and wisdom in this area have been second to none. I am glad that she feels that this could provide a good way forward.
I welcome the institute, but it is nothing more than bricks and mortar, and I want to better understand how it, the people who have been employed to do a job, and a mission letter from the Secretary of State will bring reality to our dreams, visions and hope for change. The Minister will know that if we have learned anything over the years, it is that setting up a building and a structure and naming something does not change anything. If there was a failure of the academies programme, it was believing that if you made a school an academy, it would change what happened there. The success was that over 10 or 15 years, we have learned that you have to do more than change the name and create a new structure or organisation.
In Committee, I want to explore the nitty-gritty of what the institute may be. These are not big-label items, but I always worry when we open new organisations and do not close old ones. If you read the White Paper, there are an awful lot of players on the field. I have this picture of a power struggle: who has the power, who has the influence? Even without that, there is the treading on each other’s toes in an effort to do good. Who will be off the field? If we have a new body that is costing money and leading apprenticeships and technical education, who has lost responsibility? Who will not do what they were going to do before, and what is the nature of the relationship between them?
Assessment looks similarly messy. The fact that you can ask myriad people to assess your apprenticeship and technical education outcomes makes me nervous of the market approach that the noble Baroness, Lady Woolf, and the Sainsbury report criticised. Are we sure that that system, which seems to have more than one assessor, will be tight and robust and will play high, not low?
I am not sure what the technical education certificate is and what currency it will have. Who will get it and for what reason, and who will know what it means? That is something else I would like to look at in Committee. One point about which I feel strongly and which has not been raised before is the contradiction between courses that are flexible and courses that have clarity. Our probably most successful exam systems, such as A-levels and GCSEs, are really clear and incredibly inflexible. They are clear because we know what they stand for. People know what they have to do. They know what the certificate is. It has currency and people can say, “I’ve got an A-level; I’ve got a GCSE”. Everybody knows what that means.
The minute flexibility is put into that, we lose some of the clarity. One of the problems over the years for those of us who have tried to make progress in this area is that we have tried to bring in flexibility but have lost the clarity. We have not built a common language for the wider community. When I read the Sainsbury report I thought that it had gone for clarity, and said, “Wow, at least it is settled: we are going for clarity”. But according to the background commentary, there is potential to move between the two—the academic route and the technical route. That is going for flexibility, so I want to explore with the Minister in Committee exactly what the Government intend and whether they have managed to square the circle, which no one else has, and have flexibility and clarity at the same time.
My other question is very much for the Government as well. Do they intend to place a responsibility on the new institute to deliver apprenticeship targets in terms of numbers? At the end of the day, we always have to trade quality for quantity when setting ourselves a target. I cannot think of many examples where the Government have set a target and reached it without compromising quality. That tends not to happen. We know that targets determine behaviour and some of those behaviours threaten quality.
If the institute comes back to the Government and says, “Well, Minister, we have delivered exceptional quality but we have not reached your numerical target of 3 million”, what will the response be? Putting my cards on the table, I would go for quality and would not complain about the quantity. I would not stand up and complain about not hitting the target, but I would be furious if the target had been achieved and quality had been compromised.
I shall finish by describing what is missing from the Bill. It is a strange little Bill—an oddity. It looks as though it has lost its best friends, and I feel really sorry for it in that sense. I am smiling, but in a way, that is the error we have always made with this sector of education. The Minister will know what a disaster stand-alone academies were. Stand-alone vocation courses and apprenticeships will be a disaster as well, unless we link them into schools and higher education. That is about progression and a route through.
The Government have missed a chance here. It would have been great to have this as part of the Higher Education and Research Bill—we could have seen the link through to degree-level apprenticeships and university. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Baker, will agree that it would have been great to seize the opportunity to end the national curriculum at age 14 in schools and open up a proper, coherent, cohesive, exceptionally well-funded, really high-status 14 to 19-year old education system in which a lot of the concerns I have raised would cease to exist. We have some bold ideas, but the worry is that we are making them fit into a structure where they are not at home. An approach for 14 to 19 year-olds has been made to fit for 16 to 19 year-olds and it does not, quite.
I wish the Bill well, and I hope it does what we want it to do. There will be interesting Committee and Report stages, and I do not doubt the Minister’s determination and wish to handle things well. Importantly, there is no great political divide on this issue. In the light of our experience and commitment, I hope the Bill will leave this place in a better state.
The Lord Bishop of Norwich
My Lords, I am glad to add my voice to the chorus of welcome for the Bill—on these Benches we are professionally interested in choruses.
Those who read the City & Guilds report Sense & Instability, which was published just over a couple of years ago, will remember the bleak picture painted there of three decades of skills and employment policy. The authors pointed out—with a degree of sardonic humour, I think—that, in 30 years, there have been 13 major Acts of Parliament dealing with these issues, enough reports to fill a medium-sized bookcase, no fewer than 61 Ministers and 10 occasions when skills and employment have shifted between government departments. “Tinkering”, “amnesia” and “disruption” were among the milder terms employed in that very powerful report.
As the authors of that report saw, resolving our long-standing weakness in technical and vocational education would not only be fundamental to improving productivity and creating a more skilled workforce but ought to be a powerful driver of opportunity and social mobility. Of course, it should also be a liberation of the human spirit—the Latin root of “education” reminds us that it is all about being led out into life, as the noble Baroness has just reminded us—and the best education leads to human flourishing not simply in economic terms but socially, aesthetically, spiritually and all the rest. For those reasons, I strongly support the Bill’s ambition to place technical professional education on the same footing as the more academic routes.
From these Benches, we welcome especially a number of the Bill’s principal objectives, including: the structural importance of having clear responsibility for apprenticeships and technical education through the extensive role given to the institute; the radical simplification of the great maze of vocational qualifications currently offered; and a more rigorous process for the development of standards.
While the prominence given to insolvency in the Bill seems at first sight disturbing, given the hand-to-mouth precariousness of further education finance, at least this is the first time, as far as I can see, that an insolvency regime has given explicit priority to the safeguarding of the interests of the students themselves. So we warmly welcome the Bill, even if there are a few caveats.
Another caveat seems obvious: I could not see any explicit definition of “technical education” in the Bill or the accompanying literature. Some clarification here would surely be desirable and would have practical implications. For example, many schools and sixth-form colleges offer a combination of GCSE and A-level qualifications, identified in the Post-16 Skills Plan as one of the main academic routes, alongside subjects generally considered technical or general vocational courses, such as BTEC national diplomas, City & Guilds programmes and the like. I am also glad to see a growing emphasis on higher and degree apprenticeships, to which the noble Lord, Lord Baker, referred.
The recently announced industrial strategy emphasises —one might even say that it presupposes—much greater collaboration across the sectors involved, between colleges and employers and between FE institutions and universities and so on. In my own diocese we have a first-rate example of this, in my view, in City College Norwich, which is not only the largest provider of education for 16 to 18 year-olds in Norfolk but also offers a wide range of apprenticeships and degree and other higher education programmes.
Each year at least 500 students come to Norwich Cathedral for City College graduation ceremonies. I have heard there a good many stories of young people who thought themselves failures at school, in their early years of secondary education, but gradually progressed through the range of opportunities offered at City College and ended up with not just first degrees but further degrees and highly skilled work.
Good collaboration with other institutions is absolutely essential to that sort of progress, as well as a breadth of understanding on the part of the institution about what further education may provide. Just last week, I was licensing a new chaplain to City College who is working with the “well-being team”. I did not know that it had a well-being team until recently, but the fact that the college has such a team suggests a healthy and holistic approach to education.
A famous aphorism claims that you can never be too rich or too thin. Perhaps this Bill adds a third criterion: you can never have too many regulatory bodies. As the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education comes, or has come, into being—I am not sure of its acronym yet; IFATE does not seem all that cheerful—there is surely a need to avoid overlap between its remit and so many other bodies, such as Ofqual, not least in its role as regulator for English and maths qualifications, and Ofsted, with its responsibilities for FE and work-based learning. I cannot see quite yet how we will prevent the sort of unhealthy overlap that can result from so many regulatory bodies. But, overall, I sound a note of welcome for the Bill and I wish the Minister well as he guides us through the next stages.
Lord Lucas (Con)
My Lords, I welcome this Bill and declare my associations with City & Guilds and the Good Careers Guide, as recorded in the register. I will start by looking at the interface between what this Bill does and schools. As the right reverend Prelate has just said, on the supply side of technical education we have IFATE—which is actually an astrology website, so perhaps we need a different name for it—and in the interface between technical education and schools, we have the Careers & Enterprise Company, which is showing immense promise. But we are missing the bit inside schools. How do you manage the interface within a school, with all these multifarious opportunities and things that need to be understood and looked at, when you have, as the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, said, a very straightforward system of teaching children to some very well-defined exams?
The answer, as the Minister suggested to me on other occasions, is to have a dedicated person within each school whose responsibility it is to interface between everything going on in the school and the plethora of opportunities outside and to make sure that a lot of it gets in and is understood. Without that flow we will be in serious danger of having blocked pipework. All these opportunities we are creating outside are just not getting into schools—not being seen by the pupils who need them and not being understood by schools, or indeed by parents.
The answer, or at least an answer that we should look at, is to allow employers to devote some, say 5%, of their apprenticeship levy to unblocking this pipe—through, I would suggest, the Careers & Enterprise Company, because we want to know that it will be well managed—to allow employers to say, to some degree, “I want to work with this school and that school”, but allowing the Careers & Enterprise Company to divert some money to its cold spots. Then we could start to build a really active and close association between employers, schools and pupils.
This would influence the direction that pupils take in life in the sort of way that my noble friend Lord Baker was talking about. If there is a really active understanding and appreciation of what employers want, it would encourage pupils to move in that direction. Estonia is a good place to learn lessons from, and we could pick up on its idea of computer-based maths, too. To go in the direction of greater connectedness between schools, and to do it now because we are creating so much extra technical education, would be a useful thing that we could move forward on with the Bill.
I will also pick up on certification. It seems to some of the people who have been writing to me a bit odd that the Government should be taking on the role of certification of technical qualifications—but I think it is a great opportunity. We will suddenly have a consolidated list of former apprentices and holders of technical qualifications. There are all sorts of uses for that. We can push continuous professional development, and we can get a lot of feedback on the qualifications and apprenticeships that we are providing and feed that into the system for improvement. We will have a register of people who have been through these things, which will make it much easier for them to get employed and for us to understand where shortages are.
The other thing we should do in that instance is to give these people something to put after their name. We give university graduates BA, or something similar. What are we going to do for apprentices? They cannot call themselves “former apprentices”. We need something in which they can take pride and which enables them to say, “I am an apprentice and I passed”. It should not be just university graduates or, indeed, school leavers, who can put something after their name.
My next question on the Bill concerns how the 15 routes—I do not know what you call them; since this involves Sainsbury’s, they should probably be called “aisles”—work. How do we get from standards which are quite loose, with phrases such as, “must be good at IT”, to something which is well specified, absolutely clear and has a set of deliverables on which qualifications and assessment materials can be built? I do not understand who it is intended will do what job in that process. I shall be quite content for the Minister to give me some homework in this area; I just have not found what I need at the moment and would be grateful for his help. But I hope that we are not going into something which is too top-down. We have tried this before with technical qualifications. I liked the feel of diplomas but we just did not get it right—and nor did we with individual learning accounts. This needs to be a much more bottom-up process as well as the top-down organisation, and I hope that that is what we shall see.
Who in this structure is really doing quality assurance? Who is making sure that the process is running well, and how does that work? How do industries such as utilities interface with it? There is no utilities aisle; it is sort of scattered between three or four of them, but it is an area where we are looking at some very big employment opportunities as technology changes. How does it work for an industry such as that?
I have another question in this area: how do single awarding organisations work? This is a discussion we had concerning GCSEs a few years ago. We settled on keeping a multiplicity, and I think for very good reasons: you get flexibility; you avoid single points of failure; and it is much easier to spur on improvement and to change something that is not working well. Why are the Government going in a different direction in a much more complicated area, where it is very difficult, even within one aisle, for one awarding organisation to be expert at everything and to cover every variation within that aisle?
The Bill as drafted takes intellectual property away from awarding organisations and gives it to IFATE. That is a very unusual structure. Usually, if an organisation has put a lot of investment into creating assessment and qualification structures, that is the intellectual property of the organisation—and for good reasons, too, because that gives it an incentive to continue to develop and keep the quality up.
We are also looking at a lot of qualifications that will embed vendor qualifications, certainly in the tech area, because that is what employers want. Are we really saying that their IP will also be ceded to IFATE? We need to look at this corner carefully to make sure that we have the incentives and the practicalities right.
On insolvency, as the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, has already said, we need to think about what happens with training providers and, indeed, awarding organisations when they go bust, as the Bill will put them under a lot of stress. We need to understand how they work, because they are just as capable of tipping learners into an abyss if they go under.
I look forward to the Bill’s Committee stage—I think that it will be a great deal less stressful for the Minister than the Higher Education and Research Bill was for his colleague—and I wish it well.
Lord Addington (LD)
My Lords, this is one of those occasions when you stand up in your Lordships’ House and think, “Everything I wanted to say has been said”. However, to some extent you can go into the political quality of repetition, and use the odd anecdote. The only anecdote I have on this is about having received some of my education in a college of higher education. Unfortunately, the right reverend Prelate has already named that college, so even that has been taken away from me. I am therefore left with a degree of repetition.
The Bill goes into an area where there is a great degree of agreement across the Benches in the House. We have all tried to enhance and support further and technical education in certain ways—that is probably a slightly better name than “vocational” education; that may be the only disagreement I have with the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, here—but we have all struggled. The noble Lord, Lord Baker, pointed out that an institution such as a school is staffed by graduates who went through a process. We all know that the process we go through is the norm and we instinctively go back to it, but we have to pull away from it. We must try to get across to the rest of the world that there are other ways forward. One of the things that is missing is any capacity in the Bill to improve careers guidance in this incredibly complicated sector.
The Minister was kind enough to give us a briefing before the Bill came to this House, and one thing that came out, almost as an aside, was that there are 13,000 different qualifications in this field. Somebody said, “Is it 30,000?” and got the answer, “No, it’s only 13,000”. When you are dealing in three sets of noughts at the end of something, you are asking a hell of a lot of somebody who must find their way through this. Unless you get information out which says that these courses are valid, and get people who are qualified to do it, you will always struggle. You will always be asking, “What does that mean? What does it do?”, and then you will have to start referring back to GCSEs and A-levels to validate them. In the process of so doing, you devalue the qualification. That is just the way it is. When you say, “It’s almost worth X of those”, the subtext is, “Those are the norm”. Unless we get to a position when somebody or a group of people is capable of explaining to the student and their parents that these are valid in their own right, you will always have this problem. No matter what else you do, it will always be the second choice.
Intellectually, throughout this House there is agreement that technical skills, particularly at level 4 and up, as the noble Lord, Lord Baker, said, is where there is a huge hole in the skills—and, indeed, the job—market. If you are worried about immigration from outside—let us take a little sideways look—and are not skilling people in a technical area, you will have to bring them in from somewhere or you will suffer economically as a result. The first thing we must do is make sure that people understand that there is a demand for this. If you do not, it does not matter what you do, because people just will not turn up or will turn up late. Apprenticeships should be for younger people—the historical analogies made by the noble Lord, Lord Baker, are true, but there again, we should not worry too much about that. To get on to our patch, I refer across to the rather futile arguments we have about what a proper Liberal or Conservative is. Let us face it: the historical analogies there lead you to some very funny conclusions. We have to get out there and make sure that they understand what you are talking about. If we do not, we will be in trouble.
I will put a small technical detail down here, which will give me the chance to be the only person who repeats his interests in both the Higher Education and Research Bill and this one. I draw the House’s attention to my interests in both special educational needs and technical support for people with them, which is provided by a company. Unless you provide expertise and support for those who have learning difficulties and special educational needs, and show how they will be helped through this gap, you have a group which should be more attracted to this area. Here, I am talking about people with dyslexia and those who might have a problem with writing. Unless you enhance that support, you will miss out another group who should be “naturals”. Can we have an assurance that we will get specialist support and guidance through this system and any future system? Without it, we will simply institute something else, give it another label and allow it to be ignored. If it is ignored, it will not matter what else we do—it will not work.
Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)
My Lords, I draw attention to my interests in the register. Like many people, I was really pleased to hear our Prime Minister state in her speech about global Britain on 17 January at Lancaster House that our new modern industrial strategy is being developed,
“to ensure every nation and area of the United Kingdom can make the most of the opportunities ahead ... we will go further to reform our schools to ensure every child has the knowledge and the skills they need to thrive in post-Brexit Britain”.
I see the Bill as a building block to achieve this, which is why I am pleased to give it my support.
When I think about the Bill, I also think about some of the young people I have met over the years. The ones you remember are the real gems and those who have managed to achieve something. I remember being called to a police station to see a young lad we were trying to help. He had been getting himself into trouble with great regularity. I remember the policeman saying, “If we don’t do something with him, he’s going to have a career path that we don’t want”. I asked the lad, “What are you going to do with your life? What job are you going to do?”. He replied, “All I ever wanted to do was crazy paving”. When I asked why he was not doing that, he said, “Because people have said it’s not serious enough”. I went out and talked to builders, saying, “Come on, will you do this?”. There was a builder who employed the lad and he never put a foot wrong again. Whether that was careers advice, I am not sure, but he understood what he wanted to do and, once he got the opportunity to do it, he thrived. I just hope we can find a way to remember him as the Bill goes through this House.
I am very grateful to numerous organisations for the briefings they have provided. I cannot refer to them all but will mention the Edge Foundation, the AELP and the Centre for Social Justice.
Much has been said and promised about improving the life chances of those who for too long have not been able to fulfil their potential and for whom social mobility is something that people talk about but not something that they have experienced. I have tried to avoid repeating what others have said or pre-empting what some might say today, but I must reinforce the point that, as far as education is concerned, not everyone is suited to an academic route, and the emphasis in the Bill on the technical route is very welcome.
When I asked my father whether he thought I should go to university, his careers advice to me was, “No, Debbie. People in our family don’t do that. Join the WRENs or the police force. You’ll get a good pension and have a good time”. I did not take that advice. I did not go to university either but, without being arrogant, I like to think that I have not done too badly.
One of the recommendations from the Independent Panel on Technical Education, established by the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury, states that two education routes into employment should be provided to students at 16—the academic and the technical—with the potential for students to move between the two. The noble Baroness, Lady Morris, did not like that concept, but when you do something technical or practical, sometimes the light comes on and you suddenly realise that you can do something that you did not think you could. I agree that there should not be any hokey-cokey between the two, but we should keep our minds open on that. The report recommends that the technical route be improved so that it becomes as clearly delineated as the academic route. We need to do that and we need to help parents understand that. Parents think they are letting their children down if they do not go to university, when sometimes it is quite the opposite. I do not have children myself, so I had better not make judgments about parents in that way.
There is a concern that apprenticeship providers are seeing the majority of the apprenticeships on offer go to older people rather than to 16 to 18 year-olds. I am quite sure this is not the intention, but I would be grateful if my noble friend the Minister could tell the House what measures will be put in place to monitor this. I am a fully paid-up member of the idea that the earlier the intervention, the better. We need more apprenticeships for young people entering the labour market for the first time. Of course those who are already employed should benefit from apprenticeships and further training, but not to the detriment of our younger people.
I understand that, initially, 15 types of technical routes will be established. It is quite understandable that we have to start somewhere, but if young people are to take advantage of the apprenticeships on offer, they need both the technical and creative skills that employers are looking for. A purely academic curriculum at school, such as a narrow EBacc, will not provide this. A broader baccalaureate is required, featuring slots for both technical and creative subjects, to help young people develop these skills. Although the EBacc consultation is not specific to this Bill, it would be helpful to have some idea of where the Government stand on this and when they will publish their response the EBacc consultation.
At the end of the day, we must create the talent pipeline that new industries and technology demand. To do this we must offer all young people the opportunity to study practical and technical subjects from an early age. Both the EBacc consultation and the ad hoc Select Committee on Social Mobility, of which I was a member, recommended that this should start at the age of 14. I am well aware that I am known as somebody who pushes my luck sometimes—well, I am going to push it again. I ask that we really think about starting this process for young people at the age of 14. It would enable them to develop the project management and problem-solving skills, the capacity for team work and the resilience that employers are crying out for. Will my noble friend the Minister give us his and the Government’s thoughts on this?
The business case for the Bill is beyond question. We live in a great country, which, despite the challenges we face, can have a great future, not just for business but for its citizens—for all our young people. Our Prime Minister made her commitment to this quite clear in the speech I referred to earlier. According to the ONS, the UK productivity gap is approximately 17% with the G7, 12% with Germany and 39% with the USA. We need to work hard to close the gap. This will be done through a robust industrial strategy and business and government working together to innovate and deliver, but, most of all, by making sure that our human capital—I include everybody in that—can play their part in our success.
I leave the House with one more anecdote. I knew a young man who was a member of a dysfunctional, non-traditional, chaotic family—noble Lords get the picture; it was not good. We discovered that he had a great talent for art. He did his foundation course in a studio school and is now studying at—I am going to need help here—the École des—.
Baroness Stedman-Scott
Thank you; my French is not that good. His aspiration is to work in the Musée d’Orsay. That is the kind of excitement and aspiration we want for our young people. The Bill is a good start to that process and I hope it succeeds.
Baroness Cohen of Pimlico (Lab)
My Lords, I declare various interests as set out in the register. I am chancellor of BPP University, where we have a current enrolment of 2,000 students on degree apprenticeship courses and an expected substantial increase for September 2017. I am also a member of the Parkside Federation Academies Trust and a governor of the University Technical College in Cambridge, which has just voted to become a member of the Parkside Federation Academies Trust.
I welcome the thrust of the Bill. My clever eldest son ceased to engage with conventional education at about 16 because he really wanted to be a show jumper. He was returned to us, to the world of work and to a highly successful career as a management consultant via an apprenticeship in the German city of Münster to a company engaged in tiling. He loved it. It taught him to speak German properly as opposed to fluently and ungrammatically; it taught him everything he needed to know about how to run a small business. In return, he taught the company, interestingly, how to work out on a computer how to lay tiles rather than running around with tapes and taking measurements. This was a boy who, had we had proper technical education in this country and had he had more sensible parents, would have been doing that. In the end he came back. He had to do the rest of his education here because the Germans refused to make him a finance director without any qualifications, and we refused to sympathise, so he had to come back and do a master’s degree at Cambridge.
I have serious questions, however, about the way in which the new Institute for Apprenticeships will interact with existing providers and regulators. I shall deal first with degree-level apprenticeships because it is an easy place to start. BPP is one of no fewer than 94 university providers, and there is no clarity on whether the new Office for Students being set up under the Higher Education and Research Bill, or the QAA or the board of the new institute will regulate these degree-level apprenticeships. At the moment—at least at BPP and I am sure at other colleges—apprenticeship proposals go through our own academic processes, led by the academic council, we vet our employer partners carefully and then we go through a couple more bodies.
In that sense, it would not be a lot of trouble to go through yet another body but, as a matter of public policy, I am concerned that the new institute could be overwhelmed by the need to deal, ab initio, with 94 current university providers. Delay will be the likely result but, more seriously, it could result in the institute being unable to devote enough time to what it is there for—to devise new apprenticeships and to deal with one of the problems the Bill seeks to address, namely the regulation of poor and ill-thought-out apprenticeship programmes at the 16 to 18 year-old level. It might be well worth leaving the arrangements for approving degree-level apprenticeships where they are, if only for a few years, in order to enable the new institute to concentrate.
I understand that the new institute is to have a staff of 20, which does not sound enough to do all of this and, unless the DfE is going to hire armies of people, I suggest we might try to lighten the load. In winding up the debate, will the Minister elucidate on what the thinking is on the arrangements for approving degree level apprenticeships in the future, specifically on whether they will all have to go to the new institute, and what will happen to the range of existing bodies currently involved in the process?
If it is the settled intention that the new institute will be responsible for all degree-level apprenticeships, could the Minister also tell the House what the staffing numbers envisaged will be? I am sure he agrees that these apprenticeships are vitally important and popular with students and employers alike. They are an important way of increasing social mobility and it is important that their growth is not checked by adding another layer of bureaucracy if it can be avoided.
I shall speak now about technical education in general at secondary school, FE and specialist institutions, and about apprenticeships other than at degree level which are closely linked. I was saddened that the Prime Minister’s speech on the importance of technical education contained no reference to the 41 university technical colleges set up under the auspices of the Baker Dearing Trust. I am sure that many Members of this House will recall the debates that were part of this process. My friend, the noble Lord, Lord Baker, is in his place to hear all this today. I very much enjoyed his speech.
These schools are new and are meeting with mixed success in attracting pupils—and of course pupil numbers are key to finance and to being able to produce the best teaching. In Cambridge, the university technical college has just voted to become part of the Parkside Multi-Academy Trust which will enable it to spread its overheads and share some teaching. The college is already successful academically as well as getting its students on to good apprenticeships and wherever else they want to be, but the governors have accepted that being under the wing of a bigger group is helpful. However, our unique governance and ethos will be maintained within the structure. The multi-academy trust is extremely pleased to have the college because in a way we are setting our own transfer system so that we are now able to offer within the group a proper technical education for those of our children in other schools who would relish it. There is some difficulty, noted by me when collaring parents and saying, “I think that your kid is going to be better off in the technical college”, because that is not an altogether popular view, particularly with the 11 to 16 college that we have under our wing. It is a difficult situation.
Overall, the growth of university technical colleges is threatened not only by the fact that they are out on their own but by two other factors. There is a history of local authorities being unwilling to advertise university technical colleges for fear of losing students at the age of 14, particularly from the 11 to 16 colleges. I understand that, and I would be grateful if the Minister would confirm that from June this year local authorities will be required to inform parents of the possibility of student transfer. This will enable the university technical colleges to visit local authority schools and tell their students about these colleges.
There has also been a problem with the Department for Education not being willing to recognise that getting an apprenticeship is an outcome for the purpose of its progression statistics. This is deeply unhelpful to parents and students and depressing for governors and staff, who can see that the apprenticeships which many of our students are taking up with the new science-based groups in Cambridge is a very good outcome indeed. I have been told by the Minister, I think, that this practice will change, but I would be grateful if he could specify how and when the method of collecting statistics will be altered.
Finally, I would like to raise the issue of finance, without which of course this Bill might as well not be under discussion. I know that the Government are putting in money and that they have great hopes for the levy, which will require all employers with an annual payroll of £3 million or more to contribute. That might be thought to be the answer to my question, but I have concerns about this. Large employers must be tempted to conclude that the levy is going to replace their existing training budgets, so they will set out to do the best they can to ensure that they get value for their contribution—essentially outsourcing training and the organisational load that goes with it. Trust me on this because I am a provider and I know that it is happening. In seeking bids to undertake their training, employers are also asking providers to compete and to specify how much of the administrative burden they will take over.
None of this is irrational or wrong, but I wonder whether enough government money from the levy or otherwise will be left over to enable small and medium-sized enterprises to develop valuable apprenticeships at any level. It is inevitable that providers are going to be less interested in taking over the administration and in tailor-making courses for the smaller numbers. Will the institute have funds to help it once the larger employers have done their best to spend the levy contribution? Surely I am not the only Peer in this House to hope that the Minister will deal with this vital point in his summing up.
Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)
My Lords, I declare my interests in that I am a governor of the London Academy School in Edgware and that 30 years ago my uncle and family started the Leigh University Technical College with my noble friend Lord Baker in Dartford, Kent. I welcome the Bill, although no doubt others may wonder why it was not part of the Higher Education and Research Bill. However, I can now see why that would not have been appropriate. First, the higher education Bill has a huge amount in it and many Peers, some of whom have connections to institutions of higher learning, wanted to speak and contribute to it both at Second Reading and in Committee on university matters, which could have left this important issue somewhat lost. I can also see that the history of universities being formally covered by BIS could have led to different teams on this Department for Education Bill, but it is important to make time to focus on apprenticeships in their own right—I have a personal interest that I will explain in a moment—rather than being subsumed by other educational institutions. Universities have, of course, very powerful leaders and friends. It is important that those seeking to improve themselves through apprenticeships receive the full attention of your Lordships’ House and, of course, in the other place and beyond.
This Bill could not have come at a more opportune time. As a father of two teenagers, I can tell your Lordships that many teenagers are concerned about the quality of education they may receive in universities, in particular the face-to-face time with their lecturers and teachers. The background of Brexit and its myriad implications mean we are forced to re-examine and defend our political economy. This is an economy that is global in nature, of course—trading with the world is the only way forward for our country—but whatever degree of openness we accept and whatever settlement we reach on immigration, we can all agree that improving our domestic skills base is vital. As my noble friend Lord Baker described, we must make sure that graduates and school leavers have globally relevant skills that our exporting employers need and inward investors demand.
Furthermore, it is timely that the Bill offers opportunities for those already of working age for upskilling and retraining. I hope my noble friend the Minister will tell us how much resource will be spent on adult education, which has been a poor relative. Populism has fed off the disappointments of those who feel left behind by globalisation. We must get across the message that apprenticeships and the broader offering from technical education are not just for young people, but for anyone who wants to gain new skills. Instead of the easy answers peddled by some of nationalism and protectionism, a better skills policy for the whole of working life will offer more people the chance to participate in the fruits of a global economy in which Britain plays a leading role. The apprenticeship levy will raise some £2.8 billion in 2019-20, meaning that the total investment in England will be £2.95 billion —twice the amount in 2010.
Apprenticeships provide real opportunities for long-term social mobility. I pay tribute to my right honourable friend the Minister, Rob Halfon, who sees it as a personal mission to promote social mobility at every opportunity. My noble friend Lady Stedman-Scott talked about family social mobility. My grandfather started at a bench, making furniture. He ended up chairing a public company employing 1,000 people. My late father went to Cambridge University. In the spirit of social fluidity, I went to a lesser institution, but it all started with an apprenticeship.
The apprenticeship programme has been a great success, as it is estimated that substantial financial returns can be generated for an individual completing a level 4 or greater apprenticeship—some £150,000 over a working life. Employers’ feedback has been extremely positive and, of course, the taxpayer will benefit. Raising the standard of the UK workforce in this way addresses so many issues at once. The alleged productivity discrepancies within the UK, of which we hear a lot in this House, are reduced; any benefit dependency culture is discouraged; and enabling home-grown talent as opposed to depriving other countries of their trained people must all encourage us to ensure that we achieve a successful apprentice programme of a high quality through training, as recognised in the Richard review.
It is also vital that steps are taken to ensure that those who choose a technical route at the age of 16 are valued and appreciated for the contribution they will make to our society—often of equal or greater importance than those who chose the so-called academic route. I am very pleased that the Government are choosing an employer-led and designed set of standards, rather than the old framework. The Government’s target of 3 million new apprenticeship starts by 2020 is ambitious and the costs that employers will have to bear to get there considerable. It is imperative that the appropriate level of quality thresholds and value for money is achieved.
Instinctively I am against creating any new quangos, as the new Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education surely is—it is called a Crown non-departmental government body—but I see the need for it as set out in the Bill. It must, though, stick tightly to its remit of driving up standards and holding participants to account, lest it becomes another unwieldy bureaucracy. Provided it remains rooted firmly in the business community and is led by the esteemed board members already announced, a healthy distance from central government would undoubtedly be a good thing—I enjoyed the analogy with weights and measures made by the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf; that was very appropriate.
I am of course aware that the institute stems from the Enterprise Act 2016. Although I remember much discussion about protection of the word “apprentice”, I do not remember much discussion about the institute. In this Bill we see the detail and, in particular, the remit extended. Clearly there is a strong need for providers and employers to collaborate. I was surprised that the new board does not have any private training providers represented, but it does at least represent a strong mix of employers and academics.
As “board workers representation” seems to be part of the current lexicon, I wondered whether there would be student representation on the institute board. I have seen some regret about that in the specialist education press, but there are many other ways of ensuring that students’ views and concerns are heard and I hope that an appropriate route is found.
In summary, that apprentices have confidence that their training is of an appropriate standard with meaningful qualifications is essential for their own self-esteem and ability to progress in the labour market. It is vital that employers believe they have value for money from the training for which they are ultimately paying a large proportion. I believe that the Bill goes a long way to achieve this.
Lord Aberdare (CB)
My Lords, I will confine my contribution to the part of the Bill dealing with the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education. I have heard it called both IFATE and IATE, so I think I will just stick to “the institute”. As a member of the Parliament choir, I am pleased to join the chorus of welcome for the Bill and for the extended role granted to the institute.
The Bill takes forward the development and oversight of high-quality, employer-led apprenticeships, with funding from the new apprenticeship levy. It marks a significant move in the direction of establishing technical and professional education as a real alternative to academic education, with comparable validity—something that we have been aiming for and talking about for so long. It aims to make a significant contribution to meeting the UK’s current and future skills needs in line with the Sainsbury review and the Government’s Post-16 Skills Plan.
I hope that the Minister will forgive me if I focus on specific areas where I have questions or concerns, mostly relating to lack of clarity on some of the Bill’s proposals and on how its aims will be delivered. Most of those concerns have already been raised by other noble Lords more eloquently than I could do, and with added anecdotes. My thoughts reflect helpful input I have received from organisations including City & Guilds, the Joint Council for Qualifications, the National Union of Students, Semta and the University and College Union, together of course with some of my own prejudices and predilections.
I am pleased that the membership of the institute’s board has now been announced, although not yet its chairman. This gives rise to some governance-related questions. Will the 15 technical education panels responsible for developing technical education standards also be employer led? The Bill describes them only as “a group of persons”, with no indication of how their membership should be made up. They surely need to include a good representation of the different interests involved, including a strong presence from employers.
What provision is there for the involvement of SME representatives as regards apprenticeship standards? I believe that more than 50% of apprentices are employed in small and medium-sized enterprises and I assume that the availability of jobs is similar. How will the institute relate to other bodies in the field such as Ofqual and how will it be held to account and its performance assessed? What can the Minister tell us about the involvement of apprentices and learners themselves in its governance? The Minister in the other place, Robert Halfon MP, said that an apprentice panel would be in place by April, and told MPs that he was confident that the institute would set up a similar panel for technical education students in due course. Why could such arrangements not be provided for in the Bill?
Several organisations and noble Lords have expressed concerns about the proposed single-supplier franchise model, whereby only one awarding organisation will be licensed for each of the 15 routes. This seems to run the risk of leading to entrenched monopoly incumbents in each area, unfettered by competitive pressures, and is an approach that has always previously been rejected, including in the general qualifications market, as the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, mentioned. What is the Government’s reason for preferring this approach to a more competitive, multi-supplier model, albeit with sufficiently rigorous entry requirements to assure quality and reliability?
Clarification is also needed on the requirement for copyright in all relevant course documents to be transferred to the institute, which could be particularly problematic for awarding organisations that compete outside England, in the devolved nations and/or internationally, based on their own intellectual property in qualification and assessment materials. There appears to be some confusion about the intention behind the power given by the Bill to the Secretary of State to issue technical education certificates, and how such certificates would complement and add value to rather than duplicate other recognised technical qualifications.
The most significant of my own hobby-horses, shared by several other noble Lords today, relates to the regrettable absence from the Bill of any reference to careers education. Both your Lordships’ Digital Skills Committee, on which I served, and more recently the Social Mobility Committee, highlighted the inadequacy of current provision in this field. I shall certainly watch with interest for the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Baker, in this area, which I will expect to support.
Significant improvements are being made, with the development of the National Careers Service and especially through the work of the Careers & Enterprise Company, which is potentially the best thing to have happened in careers education for a long time. I was really encouraged by what I heard at a breakfast last week held in this House and hosted by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Graffham. Are they getting all the support they need from government? When will the long-awaited careers education strategy, promised imminently by Robert Halfon, be published?
One of the mantras during my time in business was, “What gets measured gets managed”. Does the Bill not offer a good opportunity to ensure that schools are rigorously measured in this area—for example as the noble Lord, Lord Storey, suggested, by requiring that no school could achieve an “outstanding” or even “good” Ofsted rating without delivering good-quality careers education?
I look forward to hearing about other issues in relation to the Bill. Will it help to raise the level of not only STEM skills, as the noble Lord, Lord Baker, mentioned, but also digital skills? They are essential to our future competitiveness. What will be its impact on the important work of commercial training providers, many of which play a vital role in meeting otherwise unfulfilled needs? Having run a business in this field myself, I was somewhat taken aback by the Sainsbury review’s statement that,
“ideally, all publicly-subsidised technical education … should be delivered under not-for-profit arrangements”.
Might the Minister make some comment on that?
In closing, I say that I strongly welcome the Bill and wish the Minister well in taking it forward in this House and pursuing its ambitious and important aim of helping to bring about a real and much-needed step change in the quality, perceived value and attractiveness not just of apprenticeships but of technical and professional education in general.
Baroness Mone (Con)
My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for setting out the Government’s ambitions for technical and further education. It gives me great pleasure to speak in support of this Bill. I declare my interests as a businesswoman and mentor, and the author of Be the Boss, a government review to help increase business start-ups in the most disadvantaged communities across Great Britain.
Over six months, I journeyed across the country from John O’Groats to Land’s End, meeting business leaders, start-up owners and aspiring entrepreneurs from areas of high unemployment. I gained a great deal of insight into the barriers they face in starting their businesses. Those often include not being able to find the skilled workers they need for those businesses. So many opportunities are opening up for British companies and, as we create the right circumstances to grow our economy, it has never been more important to make sure we nurture the talents, wherever they might lie, of our young people so that they can play a full part and share in our prosperity. Like me, a lot of young people do not have the opportunity to go to university but that does not mean that they do not have hopes and aspirations, and an excitement for what the future holds. We have a duty to give all young people every single opportunity to follow their dreams, so it will come as no surprise that I welcome the Prime Minister’s desire to give the same opportunities and respect to those who pursue technical routes as we do to university graduates.
Placing the same value on technical and academic education has escaped us for far too long. It is not helped by the fact that employers know exactly what academic standards are but are bewildered when it comes to a confusion of technical qualifications. The Bill seeks to address that and is just one part of the Government’s strategy to improve technical education, as they implement the recommendations from the Independent Panel on Technical Education chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury. They say that good, skilled people make good businesses so I am really pleased that the Bill will make it easier to align skills training with the needs of employers, as the noble Lord recommended.
The Sri Lankan company which bought my business last year visited Toyota in Japan. Its target was to increase productivity in making a bra. It used to take four months to make a bra and it wanted to reduce this. Did your Lordships know that, when all the fabrics and components are looked at, there are 28 components in just one bra? The company invested heavily in training the team in lean manufacturing. The results were absolutely astonishing, cutting the lead time for making a bra from four months down to just 14 days. Similar examples will be found all across the country and it is our responsibility to ensure that the knowledge built up by employers is translated into the skills needed by our young people, reinforced by meaningful qualifications. There is no point in having a piece of paper if it does not get you a job.
I therefore speak in support of the measures in the Bill to extend the remit of the Institute for Apprenticeships to cover technical education, so that employers can take the lead in setting standards for both apprenticeships and college-based technical education. I hope that this will create a system which enables young people to finish their education with the skills and experience that employers need, so that they are able to gain worthwhile and fulfilling employment.
It is important to see the Bill in the wider context of the Government’s industrial strategy and their commitment to tackle disparities in skill levels between regions. As I found in gathering evidence for my review, levels of self-employment are roughly half the national average in the 10% most deprived areas. We need to make sure that employers have meaningful involvement in developing a system of technical education that gives young people the skills, and entrepreneurs access to those skills, which each need to succeed. The reforms set out in the Bill are a matter of social justice and will ensure that all young people, no matter what their backgrounds or capabilities, are equipped with the tools to succeed in their professional lives.
Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)
My Lords, I declare my interests: I am an ex-apprentice, I had a brief ministerial career dealing with skills and apprenticeships and I am a school governor at my local primary school, which I will refer to later. I am indebted to the noble Baroness, Lady Mone, for educating me in the complexities of manufacturing a bra. Most of my knowledge has come from watching “Coronation Street” and the antics in that factory, which I am sure bear very little or no relation to reality. It is amazing what you can learn in a House of Lords debate.
Noble Lords have said that they are disappointed by the attendance at this debate. I put it down to quality versus quantity in relation to the debate on the Higher Education and Research Bill. There is no doubt that this Bill is as important. My noble friend Lady Morris said that it is a pity that we do not have a holistic view of education that embraces higher and further education. Even the titles make you wonder. If that is higher, somehow this must be lower. It is not, and we know that. I slightly disagree with my noble friend’s worry about flexibility. We have always had flexibility. She referred to an organisation that I always praise for its attitude to apprenticeships: McDonald’s. You can start at McDonald’s flipping burgers and you can progress to a foundation degree. Somewhere along the route, there is quite a bit of flexibility.
The history of apprenticeships has been fraught. As I have said on many occasions, when the Labour Government took over in 1997, if apprenticeships had been a National Health Service patient, they would have been in intensive care. They were in intensive care. There were only 65,000 apprentices, and we had a completion rate of 27%. You could not get worse performance than that. I would love to say that by the time we finished there were 10 million apprentices, but we did not manage to drive the number up to anything like that. We raised it to about 290,000, but we got the completion rate up to about 75%. That was good progress, but there is a lot more work to do. We made some mistakes. Kind words have been said about the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf. She said some very unkind words about some of the things that we did. With hindsight, those unkind words were probably merited because we put £1 billion into Train to Gain for people to gain qualifications and they got them, but a lot of them were not worth the paper they were printed on. The advice that the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, gave the Minister—that if something is not measured, it is not going to be managed—is a good dictum to follow, and I shall return to it.
My slightly different theme is about how to measure success in relation to the Bill. As my noble friend said, what goes around, comes around. On employers setting standards, she reminded us that sector skills councils were set up just for that. Some were good, and some were bad. If you change the name of the organisation without looking at what it is doing, there is a danger that it could be too narrow or too wide. It is going to be quite tricky to get that balance right.
Like other noble Lords, I welcome the Bill. We could not have a more important issue to debate. We know that getting productivity up requires us to improve technical education. Post-16 Skills Plan is an interesting report. I welcome the Government’s commitment to embracing the Sainsbury report, which states:
“We appointed an expert panel chaired by Lord Sainsbury to advise us on reforms to the system and we are delighted with their recommendations, set out in a report published today. We accept these recommendations, unequivocally where that is possible within existing budgets, and will carefully assess the case for those recommendations with wider financial implications”.
Straightaway, we know there are going to be financial constraints, as there are bound to be. I shall make a point that may be a bit controversial but which needs to be said. I probably should have made it in the debate on Higher Education and Research Bill. What are we doing with the vast amounts of money we are investing in higher education? They are truly vast—look at the student loan debt—but do we really think we are getting value for money? Do we really think we are doing what the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, told us we need to do, which is guarantee a quality outcome when young people invest up to £50,000? I honestly do not think you can put your hand on your heart and say that the answer is yes.
We do not need all this. I do not know where we got the figure from, but we made a mistake in the former Labour Government when we said that we were going to send 50% of young people to university. I thought it was a noble aspiration for social mobility but I did not think about that that nasty little law, the law of unintended consequences. When I do the Lords outreach programme and speak to 16 and 17 year-olds, I ask where they are going, and up go the hands, “We’re all going to uni”. They do not seem to be worried about the debt, as I suppose at that age you would not be. I say to them that although it is not my job to dissuade them from going to university, they should choose the course that they go on and the university they go to carefully. When you ask them what the alternative career options are, if you are lucky, you will get one or two who mention apprenticeships. All the points that were made earlier about career guidance are absolutely essential, and the noble Lord, Lord Baker, is right in his intended amendment. This is enshrined in law at the moment, but it is a law observed more in the omission than the commission in schools, even if, as the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, said, you appoint an expert. Their incentive is to push students down the university route, unless you have a system like the one my noble friend Lady Cohen mentioned.
The noble Lord, Lord Storey, was right that when Ofsted inspects, schools should not get good or outstanding ratings unless they can demonstrate that they really have genuinely objective career guidance that shows all the possible career alternatives and options. Every secondary school ought to have business links and ought to ensure that young apprentices go into that school, because there is nothing like peer group recommendation for showing young people you do not have to go down one particular route. As I try to say to them, it is not an either/or choice: you can earn while you learn, and still progress to a degree. Getting that message over is vital, and I do not much care how it is done. I will support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Baker—who has now resumed his seat—because it is much needed, but on its own I do not think it will be enough, for the reasons I have outlined and which will be found in Hansard.
I do not want to come down either way on another point the noble Lord raised, about those aged 14. I think we called them pre-apprenticeships, and they played a valuable role because they gave young people work experience but, more interestingly, gave the employer or potential employer a look at the young people. That was quite an interesting experience.
There are many big challenges in the Bill, and a serious one is how the apprenticeship levy will work. You dread the reports of the Institute for Fiscal Studies, as you cannot dismiss them, but it is right to signal some concerns. There are concerns from employers. I went to one large employer, which I will not name, which said to me, “Well, the first year will be all right, and I will recruit 100 or whatever it is on the three-year apprenticeship. But the next year I have got to do it again—it does not take into account that I have to maintain them for three years”. The temptation next year is to have batch of one-year apprenticeships. I do not think that is what the Government want, but it is another possible example of the law of unintended consequences. I just make a plea to the Minister—no doubt we will explore this in Committee—to think carefully about the application of the apprenticeship levy.
That brings me to the question of how success will be judged. The Times recently published a supplement, “Guide to Elite Apprenticeships”. I do not particularly like the word “elite”, but it was a guide to higher and degree-type apprenticeships. What was interesting was that the numbers were pretty small. The highest number I found in it was PwC accounting, which was taking on 295. A vocational route into that kind of job is a change in culture, which is good news, but we know the challenges—I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, who said only 15% of SMEs have apprenticeships. What puts them off? When you speak to them, two things they mention are administration and cost. They undervalue the positive things that an apprenticeship can bring to their organisation, especially if they have not had experience of it. I stress to the Minister that he needs to take a long, hard look at this. When you measure this over a period of time, if you have not got that figure up and moved the needle on the dial from 15% to at least 40%, we are not getting anywhere. We have not changed that culture, that climate, within the country to one where most companies think that, to succeed, they need to sow the seeds of future success through employing apprentices. I hope the Minister will address that aspect.
Then, there are standards. That was such a powerful message from the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, who made the interesting point that we are increasingly asking young people to borrow money to undertake this further part of their education. I am not sure that is the right path, but it is the path we are on. I am interested that we have returned to having a vocational entry point into nursing—not before time. But we have a desperate shortage of nurses, and what do we do? We say to them that they will now have to pay for it. I cannot quite work out how that is going to help the situation, but maybe I will be proved wrong.
Looking at the time, I have probably gone on far too long, for which I apologise, but I too want to end by saying that, like my noble friend Lord Watson on the Opposition Front Bench, I endorse the aims of the Bill and look forward to the challenges we will face in Committee in ensuring that the process of refining and honing in the House of Lords makes this the Bill it deserves to be.
Baroness Pidding (Con)
My Lords, we are going through an age that will be remembered in years to come as one of great upheaval and change in the global economy. We face a multitude of challenges in our changing world. Rapidly growing countries such as China and India have more bright students than we have students. So that we do not get left behind, and can continue to be a world economic leader, we need to respond to this change.
Reform in our systems is vital, particularly in training up our young people before they enter the workforce. Like all noble Lords who have already spoken this afternoon, I am passionate about apprenticeships and our young people. If done properly, apprenticeships are of huge value, not just to those doing them but also to the companies taking on those young people. Unfortunately, people sometimes look at apprenticeships as somehow less valid then university education or other training. Yet these same people look across the channel to Germany with its history of on-the-job learning and see it as an equally valid pathway. I want our system to be held in as high regard.
I am supportive of the Bill and am encouraged by the consensus across the Chamber today. The Bill aims to reform the system, so that young people can see clearly that their work will lead somewhere and to something. I am delighted that the Government will be setting up the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education, a body led by an independent chair and board. This will rely on the knowledge and experience of those working in the private sector to set out the right knowledge, skills and behaviours needed by our apprentices.
Our economy needs to respond to the challenges that lie ahead for us, and the Bill encourages employers to feed into that system. If we want to create worthwhile increases in growth and productivity, we need to ensure that the private sector is involved. As a country, we need more highly skilled people. Given the challenges and opportunities that lie ahead after our vote to leave the EU, we need to ensure that young people, who will be the drivers of our economy, are given the best opportunities to succeed in the workplace. Simply, their success is our country’s success.
The Bill is vital as it seeks to address our productivity gap through the institute’s inclusion of business leaders and employers, who know what skills they are looking for and will develop apprenticeships with those in mind. It is built around a clear framework of skilled occupations. With such a complicated system on offer at the moment, reform is critical. It will show young people that apprenticeships are an equally worthwhile option that will lead to long-term employment.
However, if we want to create a ladder of opportunity, rather than a missed opportunity, we need better career advice provision in schools on apprenticeships. As I have made clear, my interest is that apprenticeships are seen as the valid option that they are. Like so many other noble Lords, I urge the Government to look at how to promote that option in schools. This is particularly pertinent given the challenges that I have discussed, and I am very interested in the amendment that my noble friend Lord Baker of Dorking has suggested.
Overall, this is a well-thought-through Bill that builds on the Wolf review, which criticised the bewildering array of qualifications. It also implements all the recommendations of the Sainsbury report. The Bill will provide specific roads into employment and clarify the current system, making it easier for the Government to police quality. This will ensure that young people are taking up worthwhile qualifications that will benefit them and our economy in the long term. I believe that this will make the apprenticeship pathway more desirable for young people.
This is legislation for the long term. We are the builders and, with this reform, we will be the architects of our tomorrow.
The Earl of Listowel (CB)
My Lords, it is a particular privilege to follow the speeches of the noble Baronesses, Lady Stedman-Scott and Lady Mone. They eloquently communicated the benefit of the Bill for our young people. It will enable them to follow their passions and make a better life than many of them experienced in their family, or than their parents did, and possibly to offer a better life to their children. I was particularly grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, for giving some illustrations, which sparked off in my mind a recent meeting I had with a young care leaver in her early 20s, who was on an apprenticeship with Accenture in the City. I was introduced to her by Drive Forward, a wonderful charity working with care leavers entering the professions. She was diminutive—perhaps five feet tall—and from an ethnic minority. I am not sure that her first language was English. She was facing all adversity in pursuing this opportunity. She was virtually homeless, and I had an email asking, “Can you help? She is just about to become homeless”. Fortunately, she found herself new accommodation. She also has quite a serious disability, but she is going for it; she has her ambitions and she is pursuing them.
I also welcome what the noble Lord, Lord Baker, said about maths. I attended the All-Party Parliamentary Group meeting on teaching supply last year. It was a meeting of maths teachers, and I was very distressed to hear their concern about the lack of maths teachers in our schools. It took me back to my childhood—I was a science nerd and I spent much time with my chemistry set. On a spring holiday in Cornwall, I would be pining for the latest “Horizon” documentary playing back at the house but, unfortunately, my maths was simply not good enough to take my science forward. I wholly share the noble Lord’s concern that we will not get the STEM graduates that we need if we do not address the issue of maths, so I am glad to hear that the Minister is pursuing this vigorously.
I welcome the Bill, as others have, and say how grateful I am to the Minister for the briefing his officials have provided and for the joint briefing between him and the Skills Minister, Mr Halfon. I am very glad to see that the Skills Minister has been present for this debate and listened to your Lordships’ contributions.
We have underperformed in vocational education to the detriment of our productivity, and to our shame, when we compare ourselves to nations such as Germany, as many noble Lords have said. Yesterday’s Third Reading of the HS2 Bill—HS2, the largest infrastructure project that this nation has undertaken—reminds us why this Bill is so important to the nation. A positive aspect of Brexit—I must say that I deplore our turning away from our continental neighbours and our increased dependence on the United States—is that British businesses may be compelled to pay more attention to the training and development of young nationals of this country. I know that many businesses already do that, but there has not been sufficient incentive for them. The institute can play an important role in capitalising on this opportunity for our young people. I regret the absence of Lord Dearing and Baroness Sharp of Guildford, who had such passion and expertise in this area, but I know that they will be present with us today in spirit.
I should like to explore two related concepts in the context of the new institute: continuity and expertise in effective execution of policy, following the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Baker, about making it an independent institution which may occasionally take a strongly independent policy view. Further, I will ask about progress in assisting care leavers into apprenticeships. Finally, I will ask whether the board can have the support of an expert on adolescents. I declare my interest as a trustee of the Brent Centre for Young People, a mental health service for adolescents in north London.
There has been concern about the execution of policy on apprenticeships. All have recognised the importance of apprenticeships. Delivery has been disappointing. What makes for good policy and good execution of policy? Continuity and expertise, I suggest. In this House, we see the example of the Minister himself, if I may say so, in the schools sphere. In the other place, there is the Minister of State for Children, Edward Timpson MP. These are Ministers who have stayed in post over several years and developed experience, expertise and relationships. In the flux of politics, these individuals have been able to pursue their briefs, which they feel passionate about, building expertise and influential relationships over many years.
If we look at Germany, we see the benefits of continuity and expertise for successful policy. By a quirk of political culture, the German Liberal Party, the FPD, held the post of Chancellor of the Exchequer for 20 years, and the Foreign Ministry, under Hans-Dietrich Genscher, for a similar period. It is arguable that this continuity assisted in its economic success and his success in negotiating the tightrope between NATO and the East.
Continuity of role, and the expertise and influence that comes with it, is hard to achieve in British politics. That is why strong, arm’s-length institutions can be so important for effective policy and implementation —a point that I think the noble Lord, Lord Baker, was trying to make. In the criminal justice system, we have the outstanding example of the Youth Justice Board, exemplary in so many ways although, of course, with its imperfections. The Youth Justice Board’s high point was at its point of greatest freedom from political interference. I took particular interest in the board when it was threatened by the bonfire of the quangos at the beginning of the decade. At that time I visited Rochester Young Offender Institution, Medway Secure Training Centre, Feltham Young Offender Institution and Wetherby Young Offender Institution in Yorkshire. I was one of the followers of my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham in his successful campaign to protect the YJB. It is a great pity that so much of the YJB’s attention had to be put into defending itself from politicians. I hope the same fate does not befall the Institute for Apprenticeships. I am very glad to see, at this point at least, that there is all-party support for it.
In 2009, the chair and chief executive of the Youth Justice Board took two strategic decisions. First, the number of children in custody should be reduced. Secondly, this should be achieved by building relationships with all the relevant interest groups, while maintaining a respectful relationship with government. Such a reduction in numbers was not on the Government’s agenda at the time. In a few short years, in collaboration with government and interested parties, the number of children in custody was reduced from above 3,000 to about 1,000 and has remained at that reduced level for the last five years.
I met the then chair, Frances Done, on a number of occasions and we became acquainted. She was remarkable, especially in her ability to build bridges between opposing groups. She and her chief executive, John Drew, worked harmoniously and effectively together. Her board carried a range of disciplines and facilitated the necessary relationships with the police, magistracy, charities and others. I very much hope that the board of the Institute for Apprenticeships might take a similar approach to this.
The YJB’s independence, associated with its expertise and continuity of existence and experience over time, allowed it to challenge the Government in a constructive way. The result was the improved welfare of children and very significant savings to the taxpayer, with 2,000 fewer children incarcerated in very expensive settings each year. I hope the Institute for Apprenticeships may emulate that model, and I strongly support the call of the noble Lord, Lord Baker, for the institute to —occasionally, on the most important matters—have a policy role, and perhaps sometimes challenge government.
I have spoken for too long so I shall move to my conclusion. I welcome the Bill warmly, especially its establishment of the renewed institute. I wish it a speedy journey to the statute book, and I am grateful to the Government for introducing it. It will be so important to many of our young people, perhaps particularly to the most disadvantaged. I hope the resources will be allocated to make the institute a great success.
The Earl of Liverpool (Con)
My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. In his 19 years in the House, this is the first chance I have had to sit in the same debate. He always champions the causes of the young and I commend him for it. As the 18th speaker on the list, and the last before the Front-Bench speakers, I think it falls to me to do the scoring. My noble friend will be delighted to know that I have it down so far as 17 for, and none against, and it will soon be 18 for, and none against.
I should like to join other noble Lords in thanking my noble friend the Minister for outlining so clearly what this Bill sets out to achieve. I wholeheartedly support it and, when enacted, I believe it will give the youth of this country real cause for optimism as they approach the need to consider what profession or career path they wish to follow. This is a very big decision for 16 to 18 year-olds, and like many other noble Lords who have spoken, I have felt for some time that advice and support in this field were sadly lacking.
Some two years ago, when I was a Member of EU Sub-Committee B under the able chairmanship of my noble friend Lady O’Cathain, we set about preparing a report to the House entitled Youth Unemployment in the EU: A Scarred Generation?, which was printed in April 2014. One section related to careers advice, or perhaps I should say, the lack of it; we heard from a number of contributors that there were shortcomings in this area. Indeed, Ofsted said that the young people it had surveyed in schools had a very narrow perspective of the opportunities available to them, and went on to say that,
“this lack of knowledge about possible careers was a reflection of the poor careers advice available to young people in schools”.
A number of noble Lords have already commented on this.
I believe this Bill, with the setting up of the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education, and its interaction with schools and colleges, will go a long way to rectifying this problem. I was delighted to read what my honourable friend the Minister in another place said on Report:
“We are spending £90 million, which includes the work of the Careers & Enterprise Company. A separate £77 million is being spent on National Careers Service Guidance just this year. I am going further. I am looking at a careers strategy from the beginning to ensure that we address our skills needs, and to look at how we can help the most disadvantaged”.—[Official Report, Commons, 9/1/17; col. 86.]
This is all very encouraging and it seems that that part of our report struck a chord somewhere.
We also heard from a number of employers who told us that they frequently found the soft skills lacking in young people applying for jobs. One international company told us that it had to establish an in-house course where these skills were taught to otherwise qualified applicants. They are such an important part of the overall set of skills young people need as they start to look for jobs and attend interviews, and I believe they should be included as part of the education curriculum. I hope the institute will take note of this need. I should be most grateful if my noble friend could say whether that might be possible.
As we know, the Government plan to create 3 million apprenticeships or technical courses by the end of this Parliament and I applaud them for setting this ambitious target. I am delighted that some flexibility will be built into the scheme allowing students a chance to change their course model mid-term should they or their mentors feel the need to do so. It can be very difficult for the youth of today to decide where to direct their energies and they will not always make the right choice first time.
Over the years, I have become very enthusiastic about the beneficial and constructive role apprenticeships can play in the pathway to employment and I should like to share with your Lordships two different approaches that I know about. The first is the model adopted by the London School of Architecture which was set up some three years ago by Will Hunter. He recognised that it was a challenge for students to pay tuition fees, so he established a support network composed of 50 leading London-based architects and they provide every student with a paid 12-month apprenticeship which more than offsets the fees. He had 30 students in year one, and a second cohort of 30 was added in year two. A further 40 are planned for 2017. So far all his students have benefited in this way and every student has passed. He believes that this is the first cost-neutral course in the UK and, I must say, this appealed to me, as I am sure it does to his graduates. I am very grateful to my noble friend for sparing the time last week to allow me to mention the LSA to him, and particularly that it may be possible to arrange a meeting between his officials and the founder, which I hope will be mutually beneficial.
I do not want to test the patience of your Lordships too long, but I would like to mention a second organisation I know about, as a result of a lifelong friendship with the co-founder, David Lloyd, and his family. It is called the Intern Group, and was established in 2011. It specialises in finding bespoke internships both in this country and overseas, and it now has offices and specialist representatives in nine international locations. Part of the Intern Group’s mission statement is that it will find successful applicants a suitable internship in the location of their choice, among those nine locations abroad, and—here is the interesting part—it also undertakes to provide a comprehensive service, which includes accommodation, individual mentoring, group activities and social support. The group has appeared in both Forbes Magazine and Time magazine, and more than 1,500 interns have so far benefited from its courses. I know that this is perhaps straying a little off the pathway of the Bill, but this is a company on the move and I thought that it might be of interest to the institute to know that this entrepreneurial company exists. Some cross-fertilisation of ideas might be worth considering.
Returning to the Bill, I have some concerns about the willingness of SMEs to offer apprenticeships, as several noble Lords have also mentioned. This will be important going forward, because SMEs provide employment for some 14.4 million people—that equates to about 60% of the entire private sector workforce—and it is a route into employment that many apprentices may wish to emulate. It has been suggested that SMEs might be reluctant to enrol on the apprenticeship programme for a number of reasons, whether that be a lack of dedicated personnel to mentor the apprentice or a reluctance to add to red tape and get involved in excessive form-filling, reporting and so on. I was pleased to have the opportunity to raise that point with my honourable friend the Minister, Robert Halfon, at a briefing session earlier this week. He reassured me that, as far as paperwork and red tape are concerned, the institute will provide specific back-up and financial support to minimise this. Nevertheless, there may still be some residual reluctance, and I should be grateful if my noble friend the Minister could give any further reassurance on this point.
There may be bumps along the way, but I am very encouraged that this Bill has broad cross-party support, and I look forward to the later stages and its speedy passage on to the statute book.
Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)
My Lords, I pay tribute to all those who have spoken in this informed debate, and thank the Minister and the Bill team for their helpful briefings. I regret that those of us involved in the Higher Education and Research Bill were unable to take part in the meeting with the Skills Minister earlier on.
We have missed today the voice of Baroness Wall of New Barnet, who was such a great champion of further education. In addition, like the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, I miss my noble friend Lady Sharp of Guildford, who took very well-earned retirement but, sadly, ahead of two Bills on which she had enormous expertise, which has left me in the hot spot where she would otherwise have been.
As we have heard, there is general welcome for this Bill—odd little friendless Bill though it may be, as the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, said—but I agree with the noble Baroness, and indeed with the noble Lord, Lord Young, that it could have been helpful if this Bill had been combined with the Higher Education and Research Bill, although I am not sure we would have much enjoyed a Bill of 160 clauses.
On the term “technical”, as my noble friends Lord Storey and Lord Addington have said, I understand that the long-standing term “vocational” for non-academic, work-based training and qualifications may have become debased over the years, but could the Minister give reassurance that the use of “technical” does not ignore craft, creative and service skills, which are key to many of the vibrant parts of our economy, such as fashion, hair and beauty, hospitality and media? Craft, creative and service skills are not automatically seen as part of “technical”, although of course they do feature in the 15 designated technical education routes.
We regret that there is so much focus in the Bill on insolvency. We are not aware that many FE providers have gone bust, so why start the Bill first and foremost with the presumption that insolvency measures will need to be put in place? That does not really set the scene for a vibrant and vital sector. We understand that it has already changed the behaviour of banks and pension regulators towards colleges—unintended consequences, perhaps—so could the Government not have started the Bill on a more positive note? Where colleges do struggle, it is often due to short-term changes in government plans and funding, as the noble Lord, Lord Watson, set out. The right reverend Prelate quoted from the City and Guilds report, which mentions, among other things, the fact that there have been 61 Ministers. This constant churn is not healthy for the sector.
I would add my support for the point made in many speeches—those of the noble Lords, Lord Baker and Lord Lucas, my noble friend Lord Addington, the noble Baroness, Lady Pidding, and the noble Earl, Lord Liverpool, and many others—on why the institute does not have a duty to promote apprenticeships and work-based skills as worthy career paths. As we have heard, apprenticeships rarely feature as a possible route in what passes for careers advice and guidance in schools. This lack of awareness among school leavers does not bode well for the government target of 3 million apprentices.
Many apprenticeships will continue to be adult apprenticeships. I note that the noble Lord, Lord Baker, feels that those should not be called apprenticeships, but the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, stressed the importance of adult education. The Careers & Enterprise Company should surely have an active role to play in this, but we need somehow to reach parents as well and impress upon them the value of work-based routes.
The Bill proposes to consolidate the vocational awarding market and to remove “overlapping and low-value qualifications”. I would challenge the idea that any qualification is intrinsically “low-value”; even if it is low-skill, it could prove the stepping-stone for underconfident, underqualified learners to gain the confidence to love learning.
We heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, on the work that she does and how much she has done to give young people confidence in learning—and, by the way, I do not think that she has done too badly either. We also heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Mone, on the valuable work she does in this area, and she also gave interesting insights into underwear that we have not often heard in this Chamber. We also heard from the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, who works constantly to support opportunities for care leavers in particular and for other less-advantaged people.
On the single award, what evidence is there that the current awarding arrangement has led to distortions in the vocational market? There is a certain inconsistency here in government policy, which is going all out for more competition in universities—that caused considerable concern in the House during our consideration of the HE Bill—but moving to a monopolistic model for vocational awarding. The current mixed market model may not be perfect, but it supports and encourages investment and innovation and safeguards learner interests in the event of any awarding organisation failing.
The noble Baroness, Lady Morris, spoke of previous initiatives and the importance of robust assessment, and the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, spoke of the multiplicity of awarding bodies, which increased greatly with the introduction of national vocational qualifications in the 1980s. At that time, I was working for City and Guilds—I should perhaps declare an interest, as City and Guilds now pays me a pension—which had more than a century of reputation and expertise in awarding. There was some concern then that some of the new kids on the block were offering much lower fees but with much lower quality assurance.
When a single model was proposed for GCSE and English baccalaureate subjects, as the noble Lords, Lord Aberdare and Lord Lucas, pointed out, it was abandoned following robust evidence from the Education Select Committee and Ofqual. Why should vocational qualifications be treated differently? If a single-supplier franchising approach was deemed too high risk for the general qualifications market, why should it be deemed suitable for vocational qualifications?
In Schedule 1, as has been mentioned, the Bill makes provision for the transfer of copyright for any “relevant course document” to the new institute. It is unclear whether awarding bodies would retain any copyright in key documents relating to a qualification once ownership transfers to the institute. As the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, pointed out, these provisions could have significant implications for awarding body business outside of England, including export activity overseas. In other studies, there has been no attempt by government to own the copyright for qualifications. The institute could justifiably lay claim to copyright of national standards, but the qualification and assessment material design should surely remain with the awarding organisations.
Also in Schedule 1, as the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, pointed out, there is provision for the issuing of technical education certificates by the institute. Could the Minister explain how the institute will set about authenticating and issuing certificates for 3 million apprentices without spending disproportionate amounts of time and money? Will apprentices be required to foot the bill for this certificate? What level of staffing is envisaged for this service?
As the noble Baroness, Lady Cohen, pointed out, there is a query over the remit of the institute and the number of staff available. After all, it was originally conceived with a specific focus on delivering apprenticeship reforms. Will its expanded remit become unwieldy?
The institute has explicitly been developed as an employer-led body and the Government’s appointments on the board of the institute are predominantly employer representatives. We are pleased to hear that there are at least two college heads, but should there not also be greater representation for higher education, which will have a crucial role in delivering higher-level skills? And what role will there be for learners, assessment experts, workforce representatives and indeed trade unions in the governance of the institute and in the structures for developing standards? It is vital that qualification reform works for everyone, so we would welcome clarification on how different groups will be represented. Will the new institute be balanced in its approach to developing different routes for learners or will it focus solely on apprenticeships? As we have heard, there are many other forms of training, which need to be matched to skills shortages and indeed to soft skills, as the noble Earl, Lord Liverpool, mentioned.
To those of us who have long been champions of work-based learning and achievement, the initiatives in this Bill to raise the status of apprenticeships and technical and work-based skills are a welcome move. The country faces a severe skills shortage and we need to ensure that the Government act as an enabler and work with employers, trainers and awarding bodies to produce the most appropriate routes to success. I look forward to the Minister’s response and to the scrutiny in Committee to ensure that any unintended consequences are addressed, in the hope that we can move closer to the great aspiration of parity of esteem between academic and practical routes and, as the Minister has said, to giving genuinely equally valued choices of routes to success.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, I start by declaring that my wife is a consultant with the Education and Training Foundation and by thanking the Minister for the extensive briefings that we have already received from him and officials on the Bill. It is a great pleasure to wind up for the Opposition. This Bill is clearly very important; it goes to the heart of one of the major challenges that we as a country face and builds on the work of the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, and my noble friend Lord Sainsbury by laying some of the foundations that they set out. The House as a whole clearly welcomes the provisions; there is consensus in support of the Government’s main aim in relation to apprenticeships; but a number of issues have been raised that I hope we can debate in Committee.
The first issue is the quality of apprenticeship programmes. There is a concern that the target of 3 million may override the importance of quality in the programmes that will be offered. The second issue is the question of who is ultimately responsible for driving the quality of apprenticeship programmes. This is not clear and I believe that we need to tease it out in our debates. There has been a challenge over the levy and the potential for perverse incentives—my noble friend Lord Young raised it—and also questions about SME participation. We have also heard a great deal about the focus on the need for young people to receive good-quality and objective careers advice from the ages of 14 to 16, and concerns about the long-term funding viability of the FE sector after a long period of funding cuts.
Overall, the debate has shown how pressing the need is to improve technical education, in which apprenticeships play an important part, if we are to do anything about our poor performance in basic and technical skills, which is surely key to the UK’s persistently low levels of productivity compared with other advanced economies. As the noble Lord, Lord Baker, suggested, we have an alarming shortage of high-skilled technicians and, more generally, a shortage of people coming to work in sectors that depend on the STEM subjects.
The Government are investing much in an expansion of the apprenticeship programme as a core response to these worrying problems. They do so against a background of hard evidence that the current apprenticeships programme is not working. The Ofsted review in 2015 found that,
“in a third of the 45 providers visited, apprenticeships did not provide sufficient, high-quality training that stretched the apprentices and improved their capabilities”.
The review also found:
“The quality of the apprenticeship provision reviewed during this survey was too variable and … poor … The growth in apprenticeships in the last eight years has not focused sufficiently on the sectors with skills shortages … Leaders of the apprenticeship provision reviewed did not focus sufficiently on improving the quality and impact of apprenticeships”.
So the big question is whether the Government’s approach will turn this around; we all certainly hope so. However, the IFS report yesterday was somewhat worrying in its suggestion that it had concerns about whether the approach would provide sufficient value for money. The most telling criticism was the question of whether the target of 600,000 new apprenticeships a year will risk quality at the expense of quantity—my noble friend Lady Morris raised this point. I put it to the Minister that the clear risk is that in the end, because the 3 million target has been set, his officials and the bodies responsible will have that as the core target. We know that once you go for a mathematical figure, quality tends to take a back seat. I plead with the Minister to accept that the numbers are less important than the quality.
We know, too, that the Government are putting much on an employer-led approach; I understand that. But, as my noble friend said, this is not the first time that employers have been put in command. The fact is that some of the failures of the past are due to employers themselves lacking sufficient interest or investment in training and apprenticeship programmes. I know that the board that has been appointed to the institute is of very high quality—there is no question about that—but it will need to carry with it the whole employer sector, and that is where we must express some concerns about the proposals.
The second major question that has arisen today is about trying to get to the bottom of who, in the end, is responsible for making this work—for the promotion of apprenticeships, for quality, and for making sure that all the agencies involved can pull together in a cohesive approach. This has been raised with Ministers and officials in briefings. The noble Baroness, Lady Cohen, and my noble friend Lady Morris asked these questions and, essentially, we have been told that the Secretary of State is responsible for policy, the institute is responsible for designing standards, Ofsted is responsible for inspecting provision and Ofqual will inspect the assessments. My worry is that this sounds like a very diffuse approach to responsibility.
I acknowledge that the Government have appointed a very fine board, but will it actually have the capacity, the leadership and, indeed, the courage to take on a core primary leadership role? I believe that this is essential. I take the point of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, about the Youth Justice Board being a model of where one agency has to be responsible in the end. I do not think that it should be Minsters. The board should be able to say what it thinks about what needs to happen and what is going wrong. In Schedule 1, there is one paragraph that imposes a duty on the bodies concerned to share information. I would have liked to see a duty of co-operation—a statutory duty on all these bodies to work together in relation to apprenticeships and technical and further education. I hope that the Minister will consider that.
The noble Baroness, Lady Garden, asked why insolvency measures appeared to be so up front in the Bill. There are in fact only one or two clauses that are not to do with insolvency of the further education sector. I know that the finances of FE colleges in particular are somewhat vulnerable, but this Bill does have a rather unbalanced approach in terms of its provisions.
There is no question that further education has taken a big hit in funding over the last few years. It is not surprising that the sector as a whole is financially vulnerable. In thinking about the challenges facing the FE sector, particularly FE colleges, in the future, I would like to ask the noble Lord a few questions about the governance of FE colleges. Over the last few years those corporations have taken on more and more responsibility, yet it is clear from the colleges that have run into great financial difficulty that often their board has not been on top of the issues. There is also evidence that some principals have rather lost themselves in foreign adventures, if I can put it that way, to the ultimate financial detriment of those colleges. Indeed, a college in Birmingham is facing problems at the moment.
I was very interested to read a paper by the former Learning and Skills Improvement Service which identified a number of issues with governors. The paper stated that in FE there can be too much polite consensus to avoid conflict, insufficient challenge, a business focus at the expense of core educational performance, taking on but not managing bigger risks—and with the clerk, who essentially is the company secretary in FE, being undervalued in being able to stimulate and facilitate good governance. In the light of the insolvency provisions, which put even more responsibility on individual and corporate governors in those colleges, what is being done to strengthen governance? Company secretaries play a vital role in other public bodies and in the private sector in ensuring good-quality governance. Does the noble Lord accept that the number of FE clerks has been reduced, as have their pay and hours, and that sometimes principals appoint their secretary as a clerk? Will he look into ways in which we can strengthen that governance?
Clause 14, on student protection, is very welcome. However, the University and College Union points out that there may still be problems, particularly in relation to students continuing their studies when their provider has fallen into financial difficulty, and that they may be required to travel long distances. The union also points out that in a transitional situation and administration process it is vital to retain experienced staff to ensure that students continue to be taught by experienced teachers. So I have questions on Clause 14, but the broad principle is very welcome indeed.
Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, talked about the interface between schools and all the opportunities that lie outside. There is strong consensus on the need to strengthen the careers service. Part of that must be about UTCs and the FE sector having access to schools. But we should not underestimate the problem. It is not in the financial interest of those schools for their students to move to other providers. Although I support the relevant amendment, somehow we have to find a way to make the heads of those schools understand that it is in the public interest, and certainly the interest of their students, that the students have access to careers advice. The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, made the very interesting suggestion that Ofsted might have a role here, and we need to look at that.
Lord Nash
My Lords, we have heard many expert contributions from noble Lords with considerable collective experience of education, which I found extremely helpful. My colleague Mr Halfon, the Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills, has been present throughout the debate and has already told me that he found the contributions very thoughtful. I am sure he also found the debate very instructive. I have no doubt that the scrutiny this House will provide will further strengthen the Bill. As I said, I am very grateful for the points that have been made. I will respond to as many as time will allow, and write to noble Lords on those points that I cannot cover. I look forward to discussing the issues further in Committee.
A number of noble Lords raised the important question of status. I agree that we desperately need to raise the status of technical education, and ultimately to achieve parity with academic routes. We have a long way to go to achieve this, although I believe that the Bill is part of what the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, called a serious reversal of the current situation. Many noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Norwich, my noble friend Lord Leigh, the noble Lord, Lord Watson, and my noble friend Lord Lucas raised the important question of quality. The core aim of the apprenticeship reform programme is to improve the quality of apprenticeships in England. All reformed apprenticeships will be based on a standard which has been designed by employers, giving them the opportunity to set out the skills, knowledge and behaviours that their apprentices will need to be fully competent. Over 490 standards have either been developed or are in development, involving 215 groups of employers. Instead of being assessed through a number of small, low-quality qualifications throughout the apprenticeship, in future apprentices will be tested at the end of their apprenticeship by a new rigorous assessment, also developed by employers, to really test that they can do the job. No one will be able to pass their apprenticeship unless they have met this new high bar. We have introduced new quality criteria which providers have to meet before they can be approved to deliver training as part of an apprenticeship, and Ofsted, HEFCE and QAA will continue to quality assure the training as it is delivered. The Skills Funding Agency will also continue to monitor outcomes and intervene where it has concerns.
A number of noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, raised the potential problem of being fixated on targets. The 3 million target is an important galvanising force and a statement of intent but our reforms are absolutely about quality, not just quantity. Good progress is being made on the set-up of the institute and we fully expect it to be able to carry out its apprenticeship functions from April this year. Last week, we announced the institute’s board members. I am extremely grateful to my noble friend Lord Baker for his very high praise for the board members. We have also published the institute’s draft operational plan, which sets out how it will carry out its functions. This follows the publication for consultation earlier this year of the Secretary of State’s draft strategic guidance letter to the institute for 2017-18, which outlines the policy parameters within which the institute should operate. The recruitment of the senior team is going well. The interim chief executive and deputy chief executive are in place, six permanent deputy director roles have been filled and all will be in post in April, and a permanent chair will be announced very shortly. Job advertisements for the chairs of the institute’s route panels are out now, and interviews will take place before the end of the year.
A number of noble Lords asked whether the institute will have adequate resources. The final size and structure of the institute is still to be determined, but we expect that around 60 to 80 staff members will be appointed. I am sure that my noble friend Lord Leigh will be pleased to hear about the appointment of Paul Cadman to the board of the institute. He is the CEO of a training provider.
The noble Baroness, Lady Morris, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Norwich and others talked about overlap with other bodies. We are confident that the institute will have a clear and distinct role in technical education. Instead of embarking on a mammoth merger of the different bodies, the Government are asking Ofsted, Ofqual, HEFCE and the QAA to work together collaboratively towards a common goal. We have explained in our draft strategic guidance for the institute that we will expect it to play a leadership role in the context of apprenticeships, including establishing a quality partnership group. This is also referred to in the institute’s draft operational plan published last week. To ensure the roles are distinct and transparent, we are preparing an accountability statement that will make the bodies’ responsibilities clear and avoid overlap or gaps.
A number of noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Watson, raised the point about representation. The shadow institute is establishing route panels, which will be aligned to the technical education routes—which are groups of occupations—and will review and approve proposals for new occupational standards and the standards and assessment plans themselves.
The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, asked about the constitution of the panels. They will be largely made up of institute staff but will include a range of experts with knowledge of the occupations within a particular route and could include employers, academics, professional bodies, sector and trade organisations, and national colleges or other training providers. The institute is also required by legislation to ensure that all standards and assessment plans have been subject to independent, third-party scrutiny. The draft strategic guidance sent to the institute sets out that it should involve a wide range of interested parties in this process.
A number of noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Addington, my noble friend Lady Stedman-Scott and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, raised the question of technical education for vulnerable students. Technical routes will be fair and accessible to young people with SEND and care leavers, and reasonable adjustments will be made to enable them to take part and succeed. When such young people cannot access a route because of prior attainment, they will have a “transition year”, which will be flexible and tailored to individual need, with additional support to ensure that care leavers and young people with SEND complete their courses and move on to the next stage of their learning. This “transition year” will help young people from all backgrounds, ability levels and personal circumstances to gain the skills they need to enter employment.
My noble friend Lord Leigh and the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, raised the question of representation of apprentices. To ensure that the institute represents the views and interests of apprentices, it will establish an apprentice panel by 1 April, which will report and make recommendations directly to the board. This panel will be made up of apprentices from different occupations and experiences, and it will decide for itself what issues it will focus on.
On copyright, which was raised by my noble friend Lord Lucas, the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, and others, under the reforms it is our intention that there will be one qualification per occupation or group of occupations. Employers and other professionals will play a significant role in determining the content of the new qualifications, with the support and input of the institute. The institute will have the final say over approving these qualifications and their content. It is therefore appropriate that copyright for relevant course documents should rest with the institute. The institute is empowered to grant any person, including that organisation, a licence to use the qualification for a specified period or potentially to be used for other markets; that is, internationally. As a public body, the institute is under a duty to act fairly and transparently.
We recognise that this is a significant departure from the current system, whereby awarding organisations are free to decide on the qualifications they offer and on their content. We know that copyright is an important feature of the current system. However, I reassure noble Lords and awarding organisations that the copyright measures in the Bill are not intended to disadvantage them. To make sure that the new system is fair and transparent—and that it remains an attractive commercial proposition—we want to work with awarding organisations and others. We want to hear their views on these arrangements; for example, what the length of a contract should be or exactly which documents should be the subject of copyright. It is instrumental to the reforms that the institute, rather than organisations, dictates the content of the qualification. We believe that this will help drive up competition and keep the market active. Organisations whose qualifications were not approved in one round will be able to improve their qualification and its delivery and bid in another round. They would be prevented from doing so if copyright were not vested in the institute.
A number of noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord Lucas, raised the point about the single awarding body. To bring the system in line with the best in the world and ensure excellence in technical education, the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury, recommended a single awarding organisation per qualification. The proliferation of qualifications has in the past led, as we all know, to a race to the bottom and a decline in standards.
The noble Baroness, Lady Garden, asked about certificates, as did my noble friend Lord Lucas and the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare. The institute will have overall responsibility for apprenticeship certificates. It will work with the SFA to design a high-quality apprenticeship certificate that will be awarded to learners who successfully complete their training. Every apprentice will receive the same design, and in time, learners who pass an approved classroom-based course will also receive a similar institute-designed certificate. The institute is by no means an awarding organisation, and a certificate will be given only when the assessment organisation has confirmed that the apprentice has passed their end-point assessment and this has been validated by the SFA.
Approving certificates for standards will be much less bureaucratic than for frameworks; indeed, the SFA took on responsibility for the certification of apprenticeship standards at the start of this year, and the cost will be covered by the employer, not the apprentice.
My noble friends Lord Baker and Lady Stedman-Scott and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked about pupils moving at 14. Young people can choose to focus on technical education at various ages and stages. Between the ages of 14 and 16, young people can study technical awards alongside their GCSEs, and of course they can enrol at a UTC, to which a number of noble Lords referred.
I am grateful for the endorsement by the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, of the insolvency measures in the Bill. I will reflect on how we might consider the independent provider sector and how best to protect students—a point my noble friend Lord Lucas also made. HE and FE sectors have different characteristics, so it follows that they might need different approaches to student protection in the event of insolvency. The Higher Education and Research Bill requires student protection plans to be put in place by providers. Both SPPs and the special administration regime have the same objective of student protection, albeit by different means. The likelihood of insolvency of independent training providers is low; the SFA oversees a rigorous process through approving and monitoring independent providers, which subject financial returns to the SFA. Independent providers eligible to offer student loans are subject to the SFA’s policy on intervention, which is triggered by Ofsted inspection or not meeting SFA standards. We have put into intervention that it may have to take remedial action, with the potential effects on learners taken into account. As companies, independent training providers are already subject to insolvency law and, like public providers, private providers are already subject to obligations in their funding agreements which they have with the Government, which require them to protect the interests of students.
On more detail on private providers, the noble Lords, Lord Watson and Lord Aberdare, raised the question of the private sector from slightly different directions, as one might expect. The private sector already provides a significant amount of education and training very effectively. It is true that transfers can be made to private companies. However, I recognise the concern that assets which may have been paid for by the taxpayer, and for the purposes of providing education, should not then be transferred to the private sector on the cheap. I reassure noble Lords this is not the case. The Bill provides four key protections, acting as a quadruple lock, should the education administrator deem it necessary to make a transfer scheme for the property, rights or liabilities of an insolvent FE body.
First, the education administrator is restricted in who they can transfer the assets to. These bodies are prescribed in secondary legislation and are public sector bodies with educational functions, colleges and similar public-funded educational bodies. Transfers may be made to private companies, but if so, the company must be established for the purposes, which include the provision of educational facilities or services. Secondly, any transfer scheme must be for the purposes of achieving the special objective; that is, it must avoid or minimise disruption to students. Thirdly, creditors have a right of challenge should they consider that the education administrator is not working to fulfil the objective of achieving the best result for creditors as a whole, so far as is consistent with that special objective with regard to students. Finally, the Secretary of State or Welsh Ministers must approve the proposed transfer scheme. Any approval will include, among other matters, consideration of whether it is for the purposes of achieving the special objective.
The noble Lords, Lord Watson and Lord Young, mentioned the IFA’s assertion that most money raised through the levy will not be spent on apprenticeships. We disagree with this. By 2019-20, spending on apprenticeships will be £2.5 billion, and we are confident in the extensive research that demonstrates the real economic benefits that apprenticeships deliver.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
When the issue was discussed on Report in the other place, the question was raised as to whether the Treasury might keep part of the money raised through the levy. I do not think that I am being unfair to the Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills when I say that he did not answer that question clearly on Report. Can the Minister give us an assurance now that all the money will stay in the sector, not with the Treasury?
Lord Nash
I will write to the noble Lord about that, checking carefully before I respond.
I was very interested to hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Cohen of Pimlico, about her involvement with the Cambridge UTC and the Parkside educational trust MAT, and about the advantages. For the very reasons that she mentioned, it is our policy to encourage all UTCs to join MATs. On her point about the evaluation of UTCs and the fact that apprenticeships are not recognised in outcomes, this is something that we are looking at very closely at the moment. She also made the point that institutes should not approve degree apprenticeships. Degree apprenticeship standards are currently approved by my department. I can reassure her that, although the institute will take on this approval function, it will not be responsible for investigating or engaging with individual universities. However, it will of course work with the Office for Students in the future.
Many noble Lords raised the important matter of careers and careers advice. We take this extremely seriously. That is why the industrial strategy set out that we will publish, later this year, a comprehensive strategy for careers information, advice and guidance across all ages, expanding the quantity and quality of careers advice. As my noble friend Lord Lucas rightly pointed out, the development of careers leadership in schools and colleges will be an important element of this.
We are investing £90 million in this Parliament to improve the quality and coverage of careers advice for young people, and the Careers & Enterprise Company continues its excellent work. I echo the praise expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, for this organisation, which is very ably run by Claudia Harris. Picking up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Storey, about the importance of careers education, the advisers will also support schools and colleges to develop comprehensive strategies. However, more needs to be done to inform pupils of their options. We have recently agreed to institute a requirement for local authorities to write to the parents of year 9 students, informing them of the existence of UTCs, further education colleges and studio schools that offer courses for students starting at the age of 14.
My noble friend Lady Pidding made a good point about the need to do more to promote apprenticeships. We launched a new apprenticeships communications campaign in May last year, promoting the benefits of apprenticeships for young people. It builds on the previous successful Get In Go Far campaign. National Apprenticeship Week 2017 will take place in March, celebrating the positive impact of apprenticeships and traineeships.
As the noble Lord, Lord Watson, said, getting careers advice right is an important area—as the Minister, my honourable friend Robert Halfon, noted in his careers speech on Monday. I look forward to hearing more from noble Lords in Committee, including my noble friend Lord Baker, about approaches to strengthening careers advice.
My noble friend Lord Baker talked about maths, as did the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. We now have maths hubs and are supporting many maths programmes, such as Singapore maths and Shanghai maths. Over the last few years there has been a substantial increase in the number of pupils taking maths GCSEs and A-levels. My noble friend Lord Baker talked about the skills gap in STEM subjects and computing. We have introduced coding and computing into the curriculum for the first time. He said that there were just over 60,000 pupils taking computing at GCSE. I accept that that is a small number, but it is from a standing start. I pay tribute to my noble friend’s engagement in the digital economy through UTCs.
My noble friend Lord Lucas talked about schools having a dedicated person to engage with the world of work. I consider that to be very important. I know that before the last election the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, had the idea that this should be the case in every school. We are not as prescriptive as that, but certainly it happens in my schools. I think it is very important that schools try to find the money in their budget to do that because, when you see the effect of pupils’ engagement with the world of work, the payback is obvious. Regarding the school sector’s engagement with the world of work, we have certainly found that the door is wide open, with businesses and the professions being extremely willing to help.
The noble Baroness, Lady Morris, talked about the importance of flexibility, and I entirely agree. A framework of routes will ensure that choices are clearer for young people. She also raised concerns about assessment and the approach to assessment for apprentices, and I look forward to discussing this with her further in Committee. We recognise that there is more to do to ensure the breadth of the high-quality assessment organisations that we need, but we have been making good progress through the register for assessment organisations, run by the Skills Funding Agency.
The noble Lord, Lord Watson, asked why less money was spent on post-16 education. The best predictor of attainment at age 19 is attainment at age 16, and that is why we prioritise school funding. As we all know, students have many more pastoral issues, which are expensive to deal with, in the earlier years.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, referred to the governance of FE colleges. We talked about this when we met yesterday, and I have already discussed it with my ministerial colleague, Robert Halfon. For the academies programme, we have started something called Academy Ambassadors, recruiting pro bono non-executive directors from businesses and the professions to the boards of multi-academy trusts. As of this morning, we have already made 417 appointments, which is quite a pro bono movement up and down the country. I have discussed with my fellow Minister the possibility of encouraging FE colleges which need further support on their boards to engage with this programme.
The noble Baroness, Lady Garden, asked whether craft, creative and service skills are intended to be covered by technical education. The answer is that they are. The noble Lord, Lord Storey, talked about the relevance of courses, rather than students just doing courses that are popular. Of course, our destination data and data on jobs and pay rates, as well as on payback from courses for students, will in future enable students to make much more informed decisions.
My noble friend Lord Leigh asked about spending on adult education. The total spending power of the FE sector to support adult and 19-plus participation will be £3.4 billion by 2019-20. In cash terms, this is an increase of 40% compared with 2015-16. Within the £3.4 billion, the Government have maintained funding for the adult education budget, which supports adult skills participation in cash terms at £1.5 billion.
My noble friend Lord Baker used some statistics from Davos which were very persuasive. Industry and all of us are aware of these issues. They create an urgency, but I am as hopeful as the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, that this is the moment when we start to reverse the trend that we have all discussed today.
Today’s debate has been thoughtful and enlightening, and I look forward to further discussions. The noble Baroness, Lady Morris, said—
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I asked about the application of the levy and the involvement of SMEs in apprenticeships. I do not know whether the Minister is intending to address those points.
Lord Nash
I do not have time now, but I will write to the noble Lord on those points.
The noble Baroness, Lady Morris, said that the Bill looked like somebody who had lost their best friend. I think that it has found a number of new friends during this debate. As I said, I will write in response to the points that I have not covered. That letter will be sent to all noble Lords, with a copy placed in the House Library, alongside policy statements explaining the delegated powers set out in the Bill. I should also be very happy to meet noble Lords to discuss the Bill, along with my ministerial colleagues and officials, if they would find that useful. We are listening and will reflect on the important points raised today, and I look forward to more detailed scrutiny in Committee.
Technical and Further Education Bill
Wednesday 22nd February 2017
(7 years, 9 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Technical and Further Education Act 2017 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 88-I(a) Amendment for Grand Committee, supplementary to the marshalled list (PDF, 55KB) - (21 Feb 2017)
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Henig) (Lab)
If there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, this Committee will adjourn as soon as the Division Bells are rung and resume after 10 minutes.
“Report on quality outcomes of completed apprenticeships
(1) The Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education must report on an annual basis to the Secretary of State on quality outcomes of completed apprenticeships.(2) A report under subsection (1) must include information on—(a) job outcomes of individuals who have completed an apprenticeship;(b) average annualised earnings of individuals one year after completing an apprenticeship;(c) numbers of individuals who have completed an apprenticeship who progress to higher stages of education;(d) satisfaction rates of individuals who complete an apprenticeship with the quality of that apprenticeship; and(e) satisfaction rates of employers, who hire individuals who complete an apprenticeship, with the outcome of that apprenticeship.(3) The Secretary of State must lay a copy of any report under subsection (1) before each House of Parliament.”
Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)
My Lords, as we embark on three days of Committee on the Technical and Further Education Bill, I must admit that I have been caught slightly unawares by the changed groupings that have been issued, further to those circulated yesterday. So I may have to edit as I go along on some of those to which I shall speak.
Be that as it may, the first group comprises Amendments 1, 4, 5 and 19—though not Amendment 17, as I had thought—and is mainly about the quality of outcomes. That concerns not only the input to but the outcomes of the apprenticeships that are a central part of the Bill. I say “outcomes” because outputs and outcomes are not necessarily the same thing, a point we want to stress with Amendment 1. Despite some progress in recent years, the situation for those young people who remain not in employment, education or training remains of some concern and we cannot be complacent about the job that still needs to be done to deal with many of the 16 to 24 year-olds in what is known as the NEET category.
As my noble friend Lord Hunt and I said at Second Reading, the focus for the Government’s target of 3 million apprenticeships must be high standards, not simply a concentration on meeting what was, after all, rather an arbitrary figure. Ministers must now choose either to honour their pledge to increase the quality of apprenticeship training or allow themselves to be consumed by the need to hit those targets. Last year the Public Accounts Committee emphasised the need for the Government to be unrelenting in their focus on the quality of apprenticeships and we believe that this is very much the key. While the temptation may exist to water down apprenticeship standards to hit the 3 million target, such short-termism would ultimately prove counterproductive. Unless there is an increase in quality, people will continue to look down their noses at apprenticeships and technical education when they should be viewed with the same respect as other forms of further education, such as university degrees.
Young people themselves are very keen to ensure that their apprenticeships are marked by quality. In last year’s Industry Apprentice Council survey, their main concern was quality because industry apprentices rightly see their apprenticeships as badges of honour—as, it is to be hoped, do their employers. It was satisfying to learn that nearly nine out of 10 level 2 and 3 apprentices were satisfied with their apprenticeships, but with such an increase planned it is essential that the satisfaction rate is maintained.
Given the new routes and standards for technical education and apprenticeship expansion, it is vital to track the outcomes for each group. The last two years’ apprenticeship evaluations showed small increases in the proportion that had completed their apprenticeships and were in work, but monitoring those trends is important. Related to that is monitoring progression and pay, which is not just important but very important. Apprentices have talked about a number of positive impacts in the workplace, but that does not always translate into pay or promotion benefits. Some 46% of apprentices received a pay rise after completing their apprenticeship and 50% had been promoted. Both figures represented an increase, and we certainly hope that trend will continue because it is important that young people who have worked hard to complete their apprenticeships are made to feel that it has been worth while. If they do not have that sense, perhaps because they feel that they have to some extent been exploited, demoralisation can set in, and that can dissuade the next cohort.
This issue was highlighted in last month’s report by the Low Pay Commission, which revealed that 18% of apprentices were being paid less than their legal entitlement. It is vital that these headlines do not act as a deterrent for non-graduate groups going into professions, and do not deter future young people from taking up apprenticeships. We believe that when the apprenticeship levy comes into force in April, tackling issues concerning exploitation should be a priority for the new Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education.
Preventing such misbehaviour will require a strong regulator with power to punish instances of non-compliance on minimum pay. I repeat: this is a legal entitlement and there should be no exceptions under any circumstances. I accept that the Government very much hold to that view and I am certain that the institute will be told that it is an important part of its operation. Without that, the potential for further long-term harm to the reputation of apprenticeships is considerable. Research undertaken last year by the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants showed that apprenticeships face something of an image problem among many 16 to 18 year-olds. More than half the young people polled thought that apprenticeship routes would lead to their earning less over the course of their careers than if they studied at university. Apprenticeships are still seen as the poor relation when compared to traditional forms of higher education. If the Bill achieves anything by helping to reduce that perception, it will, in that sense alone, have been something of a success.
The duties that we place on the institute by the amendment are not onerous. Surely the Secretary of State would expect nothing less than an annual report from the institute on the quality of outcomes of completed apprenticeships. My question is: why not include that provision in the Bill? It follows, particularly while the Government are in pursuit of the 3 million target, that Parliament should have the opportunity to receive and debate the report. If the Government are serious about quality trumping quantity—I have done it again and I no longer feel comfortable using that word; I should have said “quality triumphing over quantity”—we should ensure maximum transparency in that regard.
Those sentiments dovetail with our Amendment 4 on standards and are a natural fit with new Section ZA11 on page 22 of the Bill, which sets out how the institute should publish standards in relation to the 15 occupations highlighted by my noble friend Lord Sainsbury in his seminal report. It is, of course, important to differentiate between quality and standards—terms that are often wrongly used interchangeably. It will be for the institute to set and maintain standards, while Ofsted and, in respect of maths and English, Ofqual, will have the task of ensuring that quality is widely established and then maintained. It is to be hoped that all the organisations charged with oversight will not overlap too much. I say “too much” because some overlap is preferable to gaps being allowed to develop through which who knows what might fall. To a significant extent, this is a question of resources and it will be the Government’s duty to ensure that staffing levels and resources of other kinds are not held at levels that restrict the effectiveness of any of the oversight bodies, particularly the institute.
Some surprise has been expressed by organisations in the sector at what Amendment 5 is intended to achieve. Let me be clear: first and foremost, it is concerned with achieving the best quality of teaching in further education institutions. No one would gainsay that, but before one can claim quality, one must have a means of measuring it. That is not to say that no measurement is currently undertaken, nor have there been suggestions that teaching quality in further education is poor. However, the detail we have is less than is available in higher education and, as noble Lords will know, when the teaching excellence framework is introduced in universities, the level of scrutiny will increase. We believe simply that, warts and all, the use of some sort of metrics would be advantageous, and Amendment 5 is not prescriptive as to what they might be. We simply call on the Secretary of State to bring forward a scheme to be operated by the Quality Assessment Committee of the Office for Students to ensure good-quality teaching in the further education sector. We also advocate a simple pass/fail outcome, with no suggestion of the cumbersome and ultimately unhelpful gold, silver and bronze scheme suggested for higher education. This would assist in achieving consistent levels of quality, with a broader aim of allowing the sector to build a relatively focused group of qualifications that carry the recognisability and acceptance of GCSEs and A-levels. People know what they are getting with those qualifications and the ultimate aim should be for something similar to develop with technical qualifications.
Finally, Amendment 19 would require the institute to publish apprenticeship assessment plans for all standards. Recent analysis of real-time experience shows that number-crunching on the government figures published last October suggested that there are no approved awarding organisations for over 40% of learner starts on the new apprentice standards. That is surely a matter for concern, although moving from a framework to standards involves moving down a road that will not, by any means, always be smooth. But apprentices on the standards will have to face end-point assessments for the first time and those assessments have to be carried out by organisations that have been cleared for the task by government or Skills Funding Agency-registered apprentice assessment organisations. Is the Minister confident that this will happen and that it will happen evenly across the country?
There is a degree of uncertainty about how this will evolve and what role the institute will have in relation to, say, Ofqual. Because of that it is important that we have transparency on who is being cleared and who is doing the clearing. As this process strengthens and multiplies, as it needs to do to meet all the government targets, the Government will have to pay close attention to the issue of capacity; otherwise, they will find themselves in a logjam of standards approvals as early as the middle of next year. That is the point at which any Government of any political persuasion, when they have the Opposition and other stakeholders bearing down on them, might be tempted to cut corners. Clearly, we do not want to see that but, like other stakeholders, we want to see what progress is taking place in real time. That is why we have tabled these amendments. I beg to move.
Baroness Morris of Yardley (Lab)
My Lords, I was not going to speak this early but I support these amendments. The desire across all parties in the Committee to achieve high standards in apprenticeships is unquestioned. We know that is what needs to be done. We know that is what we have failed to do in the past. I think the jury is still out on whether or not the Bill will achieve that.
We know from experience that new structures do not always achieve the ends that we want. There is a real danger in politics that because structures are the things we can control, that is where we put our emphasis. It is the one thing we can do. We do not teach, we do not mark, we do not assess; we can give funding and we can build structures. Sometimes there is a danger that we persuade ourselves that as long as in our mind and on paper the structure looks right, all will be well and things will be delivered. The education system is littered with gaps between the intentions of the structures and the reality of what is being delivered to children and young people. If you look at any part of our education and skills system, nowhere is that more the case than in skills and apprenticeships. We do not have a strong basis on which to build. We are not building on a record of high standards.
To be honest, you have to be as old as I am to remember the day when apprenticeships were generally thought of by the public as being high-quality training that did young boys and girls good in terms of the opportunities they had for life. Anyone a bit younger than me has an impression of an apprenticeship as being second best, not wanted—perhaps okay for someone else’s child but certainly not for mine.
Throughout the Bill the testing of whether we have done enough to ensure high standards is crucial to what happens in the future. The Government have a real quandary about how to deal with it—whether to go for the 3 million target or for standards. I feel certain that at some point along the line those two really good ambitions—nothing wrong with either of them—will come into conflict with each other. It is important as we go through the Bill that we put in some measures to make sure we are monitoring the standards and outputs of these new structures that we are putting into place.
Amendments 1 and 4 do that. Why would we not want to know what is happening to people who have taken the initial apprenticeship route? Why would we not want to know what employers think of people they might recruit? Why would we not want to know what the students themselves thought of their apprenticeships? I do not doubt for a moment that the Government have plans for how to get that feedback. Indeed, I know that to be the case because they are not silly; of course they will want feedback.
My noble friend on the Front Bench made a crucial comment: this is as much about building trust with the public and the people involved in apprenticeships, both employers and users, as it is about anything else. It is not enough for the Government to collect the statistics and then amend structures or legislation on the back of them. This is not a highly charged Bill politically and there is a great deal of good will across both Houses of Parliament to make sure it succeeds. Our joint endeavour is to build confidence and trust among teachers, parents, employers and learners. Even if the Minister wants to amend it in some way, because we could have lots of arguments about the detail of the information to be collected, this is a reasonable amendment. Its aim and thrust would stand us in good stead in the Bill we are now considering and I support it.
Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)
My Lords, I too support these amendments and the words we have just heard about the importance of raising the profile here. Only one thing concerns me about these amendments, which is that the institute will be set up with a remarkably small number of people to sort things out. If it were to undertake these safeguards and produce all these reports as quite reasonably requested in Amendment 1, and on standards in Amendment 4, it will probably need more staff than is currently envisaged. My question for the Minister is: what are the priorities for the institute among the aims and objectives it has been set? It will need to prioritise quite carefully where it concentrates its efforts.
Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)
My Lords, I support the amendments because their aim is the right one in the circumstances. I thank the Minister for our useful meeting with him. He responded promptly, although he did not cover quite all of the issues we raised, and I will come to that in this contribution.
The concerns that have been raised by my noble friend Lord Watson are legitimate because, as we have said on a number of occasions, both at Second Reading and during meetings with the Minister, aiming for a target of 3 million apprenticeships is very ambitious but there must be complete consensus in the Committee that what we want to achieve is quality as well as quantity. If we fail, I think we will do real damage to the apprenticeship brand. Here I must part company with some others because a lot of good, high-quality apprenticeships are out there. Some people know how to run them, although perhaps not as many as we would like. But when we look at the number of applications for apprenticeships at BT, Rolls-Royce and a range of others, we find that they are inundated with applications. There are those who argue that it is harder to get on to some of these schemes than it is to get into Oxford or Cambridge. However, I do not know whether that is an anecdote or statistically correct.
The real point here is that of preserving the quality of the brand and encouraging trust among would-be apprentices and their parents. We have another problem that we will probably address elsewhere, which is getting schools to recognise that the vocational or technical path is just as valid as the academic one, and indeed that one can lead to the other. I hope the Minister will take these amendments as being constructive and designed to ensure that the Government can reassure us that they will be safeguarding the quality of these apprenticeships.
I have had a quick glance at the letter the Minister sent on 22 January, and unless I missed it because it was a bit of a skim read, I do not think he covered a question we put to him. We were told that two groups would be dealing with these issues. As I understand it, one will be the Skills Funding Agency, which will deal with the money side and ensure that they are getting the bang for their buck, and Ofsted, which will look at the quality of the apprenticeships.
At our meeting with the Minister, we said, “Okay, in theory, but given the expansion rate of these apprenticeships, that’s going to put quite a degree of pressure on Ofsted. Can we be sure that there really are enough resources there, so that they’ll have the means of carrying out the inspection, which is a vital part of them?” Those are my concerns in supporting these amendments. I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Lord Aberdare (CB)
My Lords, I want briefly to add my support for these amendments, particularly Amendment 1. There needs to be a real commitment to assembling the data we need to assess how well apprenticeships are working and whether there are areas that need improving, looking at or changing. I also agree with a number of noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, that this is a key part of being able to raise the esteem for apprenticeships and vocational education. I add to the issues covered those relating to whether we are meeting the skills needs not just of the UK but of all the employers concerned. Are there sectors that are not doing as well as they should? Are SMEs being suitably addressed by the system and is it working? The amendment is a helpful way of ensuring that we are committed to collecting the data we need to measure, assess and demonstrate that apprenticeships are working.
Baroness Cohen of Pimlico (Lab)
I, too, support the amendments and thank the noble Lord, Lord Nash, for his helpful letter. My heart lifted when I saw in it that there would indeed be controls to prevent employers refusing to release apprentices for training. That is jolly good; it will improve the quality of apprenticeships no end right there.
I retain an area of muddle in my head. We are all talking about apprenticeships, and degree-level apprenticeships operate rather differently. I thought degree-level apprenticeships would be designed by the Office for Students. I believe the Bill says that their conditions will be enforced, including the formal condition that people must be released for training, by the SFA—that is fine if I have understood it; there is nothing wrong with the SFA—while the design of all other apprenticeships and the setting out of conditions will be done by the new Institute for Apprenticeships. Do I still have this wrong, or will the new Institute for Apprenticeships design all our apprenticeships, including degree-level apprenticeships? There is a cross in responsibilities between the higher education Bill and the technical education Bill. To be frank, I am still “Slightly Muddled” of the House of Lords here. I would welcome assurance on this point.
Baroness Donaghy (Lab)
My Lords, I apologise for not being present at Second Reading. I hope that when the Institute for Apprenticeships is up and running the first apprenticeship it approves will be to teach the acronyms in this complicated area—it might do the whole country a service. As an educational administrator of 33 years, I do not understand the Bill, which I think is because we have a very complex and inadequate system which we are trying to turn into an adequate one. I fully accept the Government’s intentions; I am not absolutely clear whether they will be achieved.
I understand from the Minister’s briefing that the work to develop the detail of what the new system will look like is yet to be done and that the measures in the Bill are the first step, so I recognise that he will not have all the answers. However, in echoing the concern expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Cohen, who takes the final decision about judging the quality will be a measure of the success or failure of the scheme. If the 20% off-the-job training works, the compliance issues are reliable and the Skills Funding Agency has the material—
Baroness Donaghy
I will be brief, because some of these issues will come out when we deal with other amendments. In supporting issues of quality, it is first important that we know what the organisational chart will look like. A valiant attempt was made at an organisational chart, but whether I was any wiser at the end of reading it, I am not sure. I am not sure that an individual applicant, their parents or providers would be clear either. It seems to me that there is a separation of important issues of quality, not unlike the break we had just now—we were talking about one subject and have come back to talk about another. I am interested in the 20% off-the-job training. How will compliance with that fit in? To what extent will the integrity of the employer be relied on? How will it fit in with the qualifications that will be subject to either the Institute of Apprenticeships or the successor body to HEFCE? I am just not clear what the organisational chart is.
I do not expect the Minister to give me an answer straight away, but if I cannot see my way through this, acronyms and all—I have a bit of background in this area—I do not think we have necessarily got it right when it comes to the function of the Bill. Who exactly is in charge? Who will enforce compliance? Will it be separated out? If so, that relates to the issue of quality that my noble friends Lady Morris and Lord Young have spoken to very clearly. I am asking for clarity as the Bill goes through Committee, rather than for all the answers now.
Baroness Cohen of Pimlico
I, too, am not asking for all the answers now. I think we have a muddle with providers here. As I think everybody knows, I am chancellor of BPP University, which provides degree-level apprenticeships. We had expected that to be looked after and designed by the Office for Students. Fine—but the Bill says that all apprenticeships will be looked after by the Institute for Apprenticeships. Outside the university, we do skills training and proper apprenticeships, and I think I am clear that that part of our work will be looked after, regulated and designed by the Institute for Apprenticeships. If the Bill said that it applied to all apprenticeships, including degree-level apprenticeships, I would know where I was, but is this what we mean? I thought that bit of the university, of which I have the honour to be chancellor, was to be regulated, along with the rest of the university, by the Office for Students. There will be more and more universities doing this—they are natural providers of degree-level apprenticeships—but I think they will be in as much of a muddle as I am.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Lord Nash) (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Watson and Lord Hunt, for these four amendments. I am delighted to discuss matters relating to how we will ensure that the quality of technical education and apprenticeships is improved, as this is as the heart of our reforms. I echo what was said by the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, and the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, about the importance of improving the reputation and the esteem of apprenticeships and technical qualifications. On the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, and the noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, about the target of 3 million, I say, as I believe I did on the Floor of the House, that 3 million is the target but standards and quality must come first. The institute does not have a statutory responsibility to meet the target, but a statutory responsibility to have regard to quality.
Regarding Amendment 1, it is of course critical that reporting measures are in place to enable us to assess how well the programme is achieving quality outcomes. I agree, therefore, with the spirit of this amendment, which proposes that this type of information be monitored, measured and reviewed regularly. However, we do not need the amendment to achieve that aim. This amendment was discussed in Committee and on Report in other place, and the Minister of State for Apprenticeships and Skills gave a sound justification for why such an amendment is unnecessary.
The institute will be required to report on its activities annually under the Enterprise Act 2016 and the report must be placed before Parliament. This will include information on how the institute has responded to the statutory guidance provided to it by the Secretary of State. In addition, the Enterprise Act includes provisions enabling the Secretary of State to request information from the institute on any other topic she deems appropriate. The information set out in the amendment is already collected and published by the Secretary of State on the performance of the FE sector, which includes apprenticeships. To inform its activities, we would expect the institute to make good use of these data in its annual report, when it assesses its performance and impact each year. Indeed, the shadow institute has explained in its draft operational plan that it,
“will make more use of learner, employer and wider economy outcome data when reviewing the success of standards”.
The institute’s core role is to oversee and quality assure the development of standards and assessment plans for use in delivering apprenticeships and, we expect, from April 2018, college-based technical education. Much of the information that this amendment proposes that the institute should provide goes well beyond what is in scope of its remit. It would not therefore be appropriate for the institute to be asked to provide this type of information; it would be an unnecessary duplication of effort given that this information is already collected and published by the Secretary of State. It is right that Government collect and monitor this information, but where this falls outside the remit of the institute, it cannot reasonably be expected to provide it.
On the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, about Ofsted’s resources, we have had detailed discussions with Ofsted and it is confident that it has enough resources to deliver against the current remit, including apprenticeships up to level 5, based on a risk-based approach. If its role expands, we will obviously discuss the resourcing level again. The noble Baroness, Lady Cohen, asked if she had got it right; I think she basically had but, to be clear, the IFA will approve all apprenticeships and funding for degree apprenticeships comes from the levy, like all others, and is subject to SFA rules. The Office for Students will have a role in regulation of HEIs but not in the approval of standards. If that is not clear, I shall try to set it out in writing so that it is clear to everybody, including myself.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I listened carefully to what the Minister said about the role of Ofsted and a risk-based approach. I shall try to define that. If I were Ofsted, I might think, “Do I need to worry too much about a Rolls-Royce apprenticeship, a BT one, or whatever?”—literally, not metaphorically. I could probably say that I would have a look at them but they are not at the top of my list. But if I was looking at an area where the numbers are very high—for instance, carers—that would worry me as there is a high turnover. I do not necessarily expect the Minister to have the answer now but would welcome more clarification on a risk-based approach.
If we look at the last time Ofsted said it was dissatisfied with a range of apprenticeships, to be fair the Minister responded to that and got rid of what were not really apprenticeships anyway. There was the six-month scenario. I would welcome further clarification so that we understand what is meant by the risk-based approach and the statement made by the Minister that Ofsted is confident it can ensure quality throughout the range of apprenticeships.
We welcome what the Minister said about the target, which he said even more explicitly here, but maybe my memory deceives me. It is welcome that the Minister places that emphasis on it.
Lord Nash
I am grateful to the noble Lord. I am meeting Ofsted shortly, either next week or the week after. I will certainly dig deeper into the issue so we can explain more what we mean by a risk-based approach.
The noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, asked who takes the final decision about judging quality. The institute takes the final decision on whether the standard of assessment plan is high-quality enough, but obviously the market—in terms of whether employers will deliver these apprenticeships and whether the apprenticeships will be taken up—will be another good test of how good they are.
I fully understand the importance of Amendment 4 and agree that there should be appropriate measures to ensure that standards are in place and the quality of further education technical qualifications is maintained. The core role of the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education from April 2017 is to oversee and quality assure the development of standards and assessment plans for use in delivering apprenticeships, as I said, and, from 2018, college-based technical education. The institute will be required to report on its activities annually.
In developing these standards, consultation is a key feature of the institute. It already has a statutory duty to undertake its functions with regard to industry, commerce, finance, the professions and other employers regarding education and training within the institute’s remit. It must also ensure that the standards, assessment plans and, from 2018, technical education qualifications represent good value for money and are of appropriate quality. Also, in her strategic guidance, the Secretary of State may set out specific areas for the institute to take into consideration when performing its functions. When carrying out its core functions, the institute will need to consider the wider skills market, and will be expected to make good use of the data on outcomes made available to it through public data sources and surveys, and to explain in its annual report how it has deployed them.
Turning to Amendment 5, I agree that ensuring high-quality training provision is a very important part of our apprenticeship reforms, but I am not convinced that this amendment is desirable or necessary. It would introduce an additional scheme to regulate the quality of teaching in further education institutions. We believe that it is unnecessary to require in legislation for the Office for Students to run a quality assessment scheme in this case. The change proposed in the amendment would be a significant increase in the scope of the office, expanding its remit into, for example, apprenticeships, other than degree apprenticeships, and technical education at level 3. While I appreciate the noble Lord’s motivation, Ofsted already fulfils this function. Given the diversity of FE provision and providers and the overlap with schools in terms of provision at 16 to 18, the Government believe that Ofsted should continue to have the lead role in quality oversight for teaching in FE institutions to ensure continuity. I therefore believe that the proposed new scheme is unnecessary and duplicative and would lead to confusion.
Amendment 19 would require the institute to publish an apprenticeship assessment plan for each standard that it approved. As currently drafted, the Bill would allow the institute to decide whether an assessment plan is appropriate for each standard. This is to reflect its proposed future role in relation to technical education. While all standards can be used for both apprenticeships and technical education qualifications, some will be developed specifically for the college-based route and would be inappropriate for an apprenticeship, because of the nature of the occupation and the knowledge, skills and behaviours that need to be acquired. Technical education qualifications are not tested through an apprenticeship end-point assessment and therefore do not need an assessment plan. This amendment would therefore require something that was not necessary.
Lastly, let me deal with the understandable concern of the noble Lord, Lord Watson, about enforcing the low pay rules. HMRC is a strong enforcement body, which can and does take action to enforce the minimum wage for apprenticeships.
I hope that the noble Lord will feel reassured enough on the basis of my explanation not to press these four amendments.
Lord Lucas (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that answer, but could he enlarge on what he said about how parents can have the confidence to encourage their child to do an apprenticeship? As I understand it, the IFATE is the body that will say whether an apprenticeship has been set up right. I would be grateful for my noble friend’s thoughts on how many such apprenticeships it has to cover, how often it will review them and what staff it intends to allocate to that job. I will come back to this frequently, because I am astonished that the IFATE thinks that it can do its work with 80 people.
Secondly, am I right in thinking that the IFATE also looks at the design of delivery—the whole process by which an apprenticeship will be delivered? Over how many instances of that does it think it will have oversight and what resources does it intend to devote to it? What burden of work does the IFATE think it has in this area and with what regularity does it expect to carry out its reviews?
Perhaps my noble friend could also enlarge on what he said about Ofsted. Ofsted is a pretty variable visitor to schools. To some it will come every six months and to others it will come every 16 years. Given that we are in a pretty unmapped part of the world, I hope that the Government are budgeting for fairly frequent Ofsted inspections to enable the reputation of this area to grow quickly. I would be grateful if my noble friend could tell me what Ofsted is planning in terms of the number of visits that it intends to make a year and the average frequency with which it expects to visit providers.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this lively debate. It is important that the Minister in his response began by saying—I wrote it down—that the 3 million target is a target but quality comes first, and that the institute is not responsible for meeting the target but for ensuring quality. Those words will be well received, and to have them in written in Hansard will be a comfort to many people. However, that is the aim and it has to be followed through to ensure that apprenticeships achieve what everyone in this room would want them to achieve.
There seem to be three primary aims for apprenticeships, at this time anyway. One is that the aforementioned word “quality” must be everywhere. The second is that they are able to produce young people, and perhaps not-so-young people, equipped to fill the skills gaps in the economy that we know are there. The third aim is that apprenticeships and everything surrounding them should ensure what my noble friend Lady Morris said: that they have public confidence and that parents in particular are not just willing but knowledgeable enough to guide their sons and daughters into apprenticeships with the confidence that they will get something worth while out of them. If that public confidence is not there, the 3 million target will not be met. I therefore hope that those three aims will be met as a result of the institute being reformed.
The Minister mentioned Ofsted. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, covered some of the points I wanted to make but the Minister said Ofsted tells him that it has sufficient resources. I am tempted to say that it would, would it not? However, with a new head of Ofsted, I should have thought that this was a time to increase resources to take account of increased responsibilities and duties. There will clearly be far more apprenticeships than there have been. If Ofsted has the work deriving from Bill added to its ability to inspect schools—some are inspected rarely—it is hard to see how that can be done without additional resources. The Minister did not mention additional resources and I suspect that is because there may not be any, but it would be helpful if he could clarify the point about Ofsted. It is difficult for us to take on board that Ofsted could suddenly adopt extra responsibilities without additional resources.
The Minister also mentioned the Office for Students, particularly in respect of Amendment 5. He did not believe that it was appropriate for the OfS to have the regulating duty set out in that amendment and that the body’s role was regulating higher education. I agree that Ofsted will have the lead role but that does not preclude the OfS. I must ask the Minister for clarification because—with due deference to my noble friend Lady Donaghy—there are five acronyms in the letter he issued today for bodies involved in apprenticeships and technical education. The OfS is not one of them, yet it has some role in the provisions of the Bill. If Ofsted is going to take the lead role, it impacts on the resources argument. We need some clarification of what the OfS is expected to do.
I must also ask about another comment the Minister made in his response. He said that Ofsted had sufficient resources up to level 5. However, the chart at the back end of the letter we received today said that Ofsted inspects the quality of training for level 2 to level 3 apprenticeships. Perhaps that can be clarified because the two comments do not sit easily together.
The points made by my noble friend Lord Young, a former skills Minister, about the importance of safeguarding quality, and the Minister’s acceptance of the basis of these amendments, particularly Amendment 1, are important. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, for his enthusiastic welcome. It is good to have cross-party support in these situations.
To some extent, the Minister has answered the points that we put to him. Some concerns remain, not least about who will be doing what. He seeks refuge in HMRC being the answer to enforcing the national minimum wage and apprenticeship rates. In my experience, HMRC is unable to enforce the national minimum wage for adults, again because of a lack of resources. I do not think much attention has historically been given to apprenticeships, and clearly much more should be, as recommended in the report from the Low Pay Commission, which I outlined earlier. But you cannot just add additional duties to public bodies without giving them the resources to make sure they can meet those. However, we have covered most of the points in some depth. On that basis, I thank the Minister for his response and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
“Careers education: duty to publish strategy
(1) The Secretary of State must publish a strategy for the purposes of improving careers education for persons receiving education or training—(a) in the course of an approved English apprenticeship;(b) for the purposes of an approved technical education qualification; or(c) for the purposes of approved steps towards occupational competence.(2) The strategy shall be laid before each House of Parliament.(3) The strategy shall specify provisions under which the Secretary of State will seek to—(a) ensure that persons receiving education or training under subsection (1) receive information, advice and guidance relating to their future careers, and that such information, advice and guidance is delivered in a way which meets each person’s needs and is impartial;(b) ensure that such information, advice and guidance may be taken into account by relevant authorities and partners to meet the needs of local or combined authority areas;(c) ensure parity of esteem between technical, further and higher education; and(d) monitor the outcomes of such information, advice and guidance for recipients.(4) The provisions specified in subsection (3) shall have specific regard to particular needs of different groups of persons receiving education or training under subsection (1), including—(a) persons with special educational needs;(b) care leavers;(c) persons of different ethnicities;(d) carers, carers of children, or young carers, as defined by the Care Act 2014; and(e) persons who have other particular needs that may be determined by the Secretary of State.(5) The strategy shall include guidance for the purposes of improving careers education, to which the following bodies shall have regard—(a) the Office for Standards in Education, Children’s Services and Skills;(b) the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education; and(c) the Office for Students.(6) The Secretary of State shall by regulations designate relevant authorities and partners for the purposes of subsection (3)(b).(7) The Secretary of State may by regulations designate—(a) further groups of persons under subsection (4)(e); and(b) further national authorities or bodies under subsection (5).(8) Regulations made under this section—(a) must be made by statutory instrument; and(b) may not be made unless a draft has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.”
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, as this is the start of Committee, I remind the Committee that my wife is a consultant for the Education and Training Foundation.
In our discussion at Second Reading, and in the very helpful meetings we have had with Ministers and officials since, there has been a unanimity of view that people, and young people in particular, should have every opportunity to consider a quality apprenticeship as a serious option. My eyes were opened when I visited the Skills Show at the NEC in Birmingham some three years ago under the auspices of David Cragg, who did so much to develop this concept. It was an amazing experience. The exhibitions by some of our best companies were of high quality, ranging from aeronautics to car motor engineering and from catering to the media. It was fantastic to see the opportunities available to young people, if they choose to go down the apprenticeship route. Thousands of young people and their parents have been to the Skills Show and to similar events in other parts of the country. They have had their vision widened. However, many young people and their parents have not had that opportunity. Therefore, the lack of robust, high-quality and, dare I suggest, impartial advice to young people about the possibility of apprenticeships is a worrying issue that we need to tackle if the Bill, and the actions taken by government, are to be successful.
The noble Lord, Lord Baker, asked at Second Reading: how do you get knowledge of apprenticeships over to young people? He said that you cannot expect schools to do the job and pinpointed a weakness in the current situation. First, schools often have very limited knowledge of apprenticeships, and, secondly, they have a vested interest in keeping their bright young people in school, ready to go into their sixth form. By the way, this is also an issue in relation to young people who might be better off going to a sixth-form or FE college to do A-levels, rather than staying in a small sixth form that offers a limited variety of A-levels. Again, the issue is about the pressure that schools put on young people to stay, even though it is against their best interests.
The Minister accepts the issue. There is no doubt that since the Education Act 2011 and the stripping away of the grant connections, we have seen a huge reduction in the quality of the careers advice available to young people. At Second Reading, the Minister promised a government strategy. In essence, Amendment 2, in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Watson, seeks to flesh out the strategy and ensure that young people receive high-quality and impartial advice.
In dealing with this group, we will hear from the noble Lord, Lord Baker, and his colleagues on Amendment 11, which covers much of the same ground and which clearly, given its drafting, the Government will support. I welcome the noble Lord’s amendment, although I think that between now and Report there is room for more discussion. Perhaps in speaking to my amendment I will put a few points to the noble Lord to enable discussion. My reading of his amendment is that it does not apply to institutions in the further education sector. If that is so, there is a not inconsiderable number of 14 to 16 year-olds in FE colleges who would not benefit. That is my first point.
The second is the question of enforcement. As I see it, there is no provision for making sure that this really grips and makes education providers ensure that, in the end, young people receive quality advice. Thirdly, there is still an issue about whether adequate facilities may be made available. I know that the noble Lord’s intention is to make education providers set out a policy statement and the terms on which external providers of technical education can gain access, but I have to say—with apologies to all current or past head teachers who are in your Lordships’ Committee today—that heads are ingenious at ensuring that if they do not want something to happen in their school, it will not.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I was saying—with apologies to the noble Lord, Lord Storey—that heads are ingenious at finding a way round things if they do not want something to happen. I understand the intention of publishing a policy statement about the ability of providers to come into schools, but I am concerned about whether you can really make it happen in practice if heads do not want it to. This is where our amendment comes in and where the Government—in the end—have to take ownership of it. The Minister has already promised a strategy but we need to hear that there is going to be some beef to it.
We also need some recognition on why schools should be reluctant. I am interested in what the noble Lord, Lord Baker, said. If students are leaving at 14 to go to UTCs, clearly we want bright young people to do that where it is appropriate. We do not want schools resisting or offloading the students that they do not want to stay in their own schools. That has been a problem with some UTCs. Equally, you have to accept, if you are a head, that losing young people means a financial loss. The Department for Education needs to think about a sensible approach that will provide some incentive to schools to encourage young people to go to UTCs at that age if they think it is appropriate. It would be a great pity if the UTC approach went under because parents and young people are not getting the right information about what UTCs have to offer. That is but one example of the issues that we face.
Amendment 9 takes its remit from the industrial strategy Green Paper recently published by the Government. Page 43 of Building Our Industrial Strategy talks about the creation of a course-finding process for technical education similar to the UCAS process. That is very welcome. I see this as being in parallel to impartial advice and encouragement of young people into the apprenticeship approach. The strategy says:
“Effective information and support should be available for everyone, regardless of their education and training choices. People choosing apprenticeships or courses in colleges currently face significant complexity when selecting and applying for a course. Applications for higher education institutions, in contrast, are much more straightforward, with a way of searching and applying for courses similar to the UCAS process”.
The Government say they will explore how to give technical education students clear information and better support throughout the application process, with a similar platform to UCAS. This is very welcome and my amendment merely provides a useful vehicle for the Government to establish this and I am sure the Minister is going to accept it. I beg to move.
Lord Baker of Dorking (Con)
My Amendment 11 is also in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Adonis and Lord Storey, and the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Yardley. It is very important that when one is proposing a significant change, which is what the amendment does, one should seek to get all-party support for it because that will secure acceptance across the party lines. The purpose of the amendment is to ensure that providers of technical training and apprenticeships will have the right to go into local schools and explain to students at different levels and of different ages exactly what they have to offer. The ages will be 13, 16 and 18.
The key to the success of the Bill is not only providing first-class apprenticeships and technical education routes but ensuring that young people recognise them as worthy career paths. The curse of our education system at the moment is that secondary schools or comprehensives seem to have only one target: three A-levels and university. You go and speak to heads and they will tell you about the students who have got into university and the ones they want to get into university, and for the rest it is middle-distance interest, frankly. There are many pathways to success and it is our duty to try to open them to more people. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said, we cannot expect teachers, many of whom have no experience of industry or commerce, to advise their students. They have simply left school, gone to a teacher training college and gone into education, and they do not realise the enormous range of skills and interests that is needed in the industrial and commercial world.
The amendment will strengthen the Bill significantly by giving all young people the chance to hear directly from providers of apprenticeships and technical qualifications about what they can study. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, the phrase in the amendment that covers FE colleges is “education … providers”, as referred to in subsection (1) of proposed new Section 42B. So FE colleges are included in the amendment. This will help our young people make better-informed and more confident decisions at important transition points.
The age of 14 has become a transition point because university technical colleges have now been promoted for some time. I am one of those who believe that that is a much better transition point than 11. The reason we have 11 is because in Victorian England the school leaving age was 11 and the only schools that went beyond that were grammar schools. After the great 1870 Act the elementary schools started the post-school leaving age and it happened to be 11. That is why we are landed with 11-to-18 and 11-to-16 schools. I personally believe that the two ages of transfer in the education system are round about nine and 13 or 14, which is what the private sector does and what many other countries in the world do.
Of course, having the transition at 14 presents marketing difficulties because youngsters, having gone to an 11-to-16 or 11-to-18 school, do not expect to make another choice until they take GCSEs. Certainly, UTCs have had difficulty recruiting at 14. It gets better each year as the UTC movement expands and gets better and more widely known, but as the noble Lords, Lord Hunt and Lord Watson, said, many schools resist anybody who comes in and tries to persuade a pupil to go on another course. It is a loss of money—about £5,000 a head—and they are very hostile.
We had one classic case when the head of a UTC went to a school to explain to the students what the UTC was about. He was met at the door by a teacher who said, “You can go over there to the 16 year-olds”. The head said, “Yes, but what about the 13 and 14 year-olds?”. The teacher said, “You can’t go to those at all”. The head said, “What is your role in this school?”, and he said, “I am the careers adviser”. You can see an instinctive and permanent hostility to anything that will attract students to a different course—which in many cases may be more appropriate for them.
For the past three years, we have been pressing the Government to help us with recruitment at 14. We asked for two changes to be made, both of which required legislation. The simpler one involved laying a statutory instrument, which was laid and has now come into force. It requires all local authorities in the land to write to all year 9 parents telling them of the existence of choice at 14 and, specifically, that UTCs, studio schools and indeed FE colleges are available for them. We really did not get very far until Justine Greening became the Education Secretary; she is the first in seven years who actually likes UTCs. She visited one in Didcot and described it as brilliant and, when I took her to open another in Scarborough, she said that it was also brilliant. Last week she went to see JCB—also brilliant. So the mood in the department changed, and a statutory instrument was laid.
The other change we wanted is contained in this amendment. Legislative action was needed—there was no general education Bill in this Parliament. When I saw the Long Title of this Bill, I asked the Public Bill Office whether it would be appropriate to table an amendment, and outlined what I wanted. The office said that it would be. An excellent clerk, Susannah Street, not only said yes but presented me with a brilliant amendment—five lines long—which was absolutely perfect and did everything I wanted. Then of course I showed it to the Minister and the department. They liked it and redrafted it to a page and half, which only goes to show that the parliamentary draftsmen in the department today are just as good as they were when I was there more than 30 years ago. The drafting is very clear. Subsection (1) of the proposed new section states that:
“The proprietor of a school in England”—
which covers all schools in England, but not private schools—
“must ensure that there is an opportunity for a range of education and training providers”—
including university technical colleges, studio schools, career colleges, FE colleges and providers of apprenticeships—
“to access registered pupils during the relevant phase of their education”.
This is really at the heart of the clause.
By this, we wanted to achieve a recognition of the importance of technical and vocational education. As one knows, for the better part of 150 years, it has never had the same sort of rating as academic education in England does. This is a great pity. When we started the UTC movement, we asked a team at Exeter University to explain to us in a report why every attempt to improve technical education since 1870 had failed—and every attempt had failed. At the end of that presentation, we were told that there were two that would be approved by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and we had to decide whether to have two experimental schools or a movement. If we had accepted just two experimental schools, I would have thought that, by this time, we would probably have half a dozen UTCs operating. Ron Dearing and I decided no, and that we should start as many as we could as quickly as we could—all with the approval of the department, I must say. We do not just turn them on. There is a very demanding process of selection, as the noble Lord, Lord Nash, will know: we have to persuade him that they are in fact worth funding. We now have some 48 UTCs open, with nearly 12,000 students.
One thing we are most proud of in the UTC movement is the destination of the students. The destination data for students in ordinary secondary schools are farcical—the students are tracked 18 months after they have left, through national insurance numbers and tax records. When the figures are published, no one pays any attention to them, including the heads of the schools, and they disappear into the distance. Our destination data are taken in the four months of July, August, September and October. We trace what happens to each of the students; it is not too difficult for us because, from the very beginning when students join the UTCs, they are thinking about what their destination is going to be. That is a very thorough and proper analysis.
Last July we had 1,292 leavers and of those only five were NEET. Literally no other group of schools in the country can match that. Our unemployment rate at the age of 18 is 0.5%, while the student unemployment rate in this country is 11.5%—something that is often forgotten. When it comes to the destination of our students, 44% go to university, which is higher than the English national average of 38%, and we also produce 30% of apprentices at 18 years old where the national average is 8.6%. That is a remarkable record of achievement for UTCs.
Lord Storey (LD)
My Lords, I shall speak generally to this group of amendments and specifically to Amendments 11 and 61. It is important that students’ eyes are wide open and they know exactly what their options are. I could not put it any better than a DfE spokeswoman who, when commenting on Ofsted’s report on careers education, said:
“Every child deserves an excellent education and schools have a statutory duty to provide high-quality careers advice as part of that”.
That is perhaps the most important thing that parents and society want for children and young people. When they go to school, we want excellent teaching and opportunities, but we also want excellent careers education. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, referred to Connexions. Connexions was good but some of it was pretty ropey. I do not think there has ever been a time when we have had really outstanding, first-rate, quality careers education. I think I have said this before but, interestingly, if you talk to professionals they say that the best careers regime was at the time of John Major’s premiership.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, also asked how we can ensure that careers education is of a high quality. It is no good just providing a scheme, a strategy, books and prospectuses, or visitors to schools. How do we ensure that quality careers education is embedded in schools and colleges? The answer is in Amendment 61. The only way we can ensure quality is through Ofsted. It is strange that we do not get Ofsted to say, “Yes, this school or college has quality careers education”. Amendment 61 says that for a school to be good or outstanding it has to have good careers education. I was asked why I tabled this amendment in relation to colleges. We are not talking about careers education in schools, but I hope that if we get significant changes to the quality of careers education in colleges, it will permeate through to schools.
In a sense, the noble Lord, Lord Baker, should not have had to table his amendment. It is bizarre that schools do not invite different providers in, but he gave the answer. First, society has a view that we should go down an academic route. In my children’s school, they said, “Yes, they will do very well in their GCSEs. They will do very well in the sixth form. Yes, they’ll get a university place”. My cousin lives in Switzerland, with two children, where there is a wholly different approach: what is better for the child? The school of one of her children said, “Actually, it is a vocational route”. He went into an apprenticeship and has gone back to university.
We have this tramline approach in this country that there is only one route to go down. We need to break free of that, which is why the amendment is so important. It is also about changing parents’ perceptions. For some reason, parents think that unless their child has gone to a good secondary school, sixth form and university, somehow they have failed education. Is that not sad? We need to make real changes.
We should not have to table an amendment saying that, but of course for head teachers, each child, pupil or young person is a sum of money. Again, we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Baker, that if a maintained school or an academy loses pupils to other providers, whether FE colleges, UTCs or studio schools, it will lose that money. That then blinkers schools’ approach to what is best for the child. Sometimes they will look at the viability of sixth-form groups and say, for example, “Susan would be better going to a UTC or an FE college, but she is quite good at history and the group is struggling a bit at A-level and if we don’t get the right numbers, we’ll lose that group”. So the school pushes pupils down that route. That is the wrong way. Slightly pushing the door open and getting other providers in to make parents aware of what is available and making pupils and young people themselves aware is hugely important.
I mentioned the Ofsted report of last year into careers education, which was pretty concerning. It referred to, for example, chaotic careers education hampering the economy and the lack of an overarching government strategy. I will not go through it all. The DfE responded, and we know that the Careers & Enterprise Company has been established. I hear good reports about that. The Minister will no doubt tell us how the huge £20 million investment is turning things around. However, it is not turning things around for every school or indeed college. I hope that we will not fail our children but will realise that we need good-quality careers education, which is inspected. We also need other opportunities, providers and routes—whether they be academic, vocational or technical—to be part of a young person’s choice in their future education and career.
Lord Aberdare
My Lords, as a vice-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Apprenticeships, I meet a lot of apprentices and am constantly surprised and shocked at how few have either heard about or been directed towards the apprenticeships that they are on through their schools or any formal careers education. As we have heard, schools have an in-built bias towards promoting the academic route and I do not need to say any more about that.
However, with the best will in the world, teachers and parents may have only a limited understanding of the sorts of jobs and careers available in today’s job market, the opportunities they offer and the routes available to access them. Again, as we have heard, the careers education system, if one can call it that, has been at best patchy and at worst shockingly poor. Some good initiatives are beginning to emerge. The National Careers Service offers a valuable central online resource; the Gatsby benchmarks have defined what good careers education looks like, which is important; and, as the noble Lord, Lord Storey, has said, the Careers & Enterprise Company in particular is creating a vital network of enterprise advisers and co-ordinators to support schools.
However, all those initiatives need to be properly linked, and the gaps that even they allow in provision need to be identified, measurement systems need to be put in place and we need a strategy driven by government. Indeed, I am delighted that the Government are committed to producing a strategy later this year. However, there is real value in including a provision for that in the Bill. Part of that strategy, as we have heard, should be a much better, UCAS-like system for identifying and applying for technical education and apprenticeship opportunities. I am delighted that that is promised in the industrial strategy but support the idea of it being incorporated in the Bill through Amendment 9.
I also support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Baker. The careers system provides a bit of supply push but unless there is some demand pull, and unless schools want or are required to allow those systems to work, and young people and their parents are aware of them, the system is not going to work.
Finally, I was delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, reminded me of my visit to the Skills Show some years ago because that was one of the most inspiring ways in which to promote apprenticeships and technical education that I have come across. There was a real buzz about it; there should be skills shows all over the place. There needs to be an incentive to ensure that schools do what we need them to do. I therefore support Amendment 61 to ensure that only colleges with good careers education can get good or outstanding Ofsted ratings.
Baroness Wolf of Dulwich (CB)
My Lords, I can only second what has been said this afternoon. I was interested to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Baker, that he started off with a five-line amendment that seemed to encapsulate what this issue is about. Will the Government reconsider whether they need to put all of Amendment 11 into primary legislation?
I will give the Committee an example of why I read the whole thing with mounting grief, after thinking that the five lines were splendid. I am the governor of a small specialist sixth-form academy. We have a small group of young people who have already chosen a specialist route, in this case mathematics. I am very proud of the fact that our first class included one young lady who went off to be a Dyson apprentice at 18 with her extremely good A-levels, and your Lordships will not be surprised to hear that we have been visited by people from the Dyson Institute of Technology who are very keen that we should send them some more apprentices.
Baroness Morris of Yardley
My Lords, I support the amendments in this group, particularly Amendment 11, to which I have added my name. I have some concerns about Amendment 61 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Storey, which I will mention. I do not want to go over the arguments again except to add weight of numbers to the strength of the arguments we have heard from other Members today. I do not disagree with anything that has been said, I just want to make two or three points which perhaps have not been made or have not been made frequently enough. I hope I will not speak for long.
First, I hope the Minister will be really clear about when this careers strategy is about to appear. We have been promised it for a very long time and I think I saw something by his colleague who leads in the department for this piece of legislation about it coming later in the year. Given that it is about two years since a careers strategy was promised, I am not sure why a Bill such as this, which will fail unless there is good-quality careers education, is coming so far in advance of the careers education strategy. They should go hand in hand. We would not be having this debate if we had the careers education strategy. I think a lot of these amendments have been tabled in sheer frustration. We almost panic because we know it is such a weak area of our system and we are about to pass the Bill with no effective careers education system. We need to know when the strategy will arrive and we need to understand why it has been delayed. If there is a problem, we need to know about it. I worry about that.
Secondly, I agree with the information bit but that in itself is not careers education. There are two parts to this. We need the information but then we need to make the decision. As a young person—or even an older person—just having information is not sufficient. The skill of making the right decision is far more complicated. You can let as many people into the school to give information about as wide a range of jobs as you can, but when they leave at the end of the day, it is the teacher who is there with the young person when the decision is made. That is a very important other part of this situation. Information by itself will not necessarily change the young person’s mind—it might but it might not.
There are three big influences on the child in making the decision: their parents, their friends and their teachers. The strategy must encompass and reflect that. We cannot squeeze teachers out of careers education. We can bring people with a wide range of knowledge and experience into the classroom, but teachers will have an important impact on the decisions reached because they are the pastoral carers and they spend an awful lot of time with young people. We have been critical of teachers, and rightly so, but we need a careers strategy that supports them in the job they are being asked to do. We do not want to give them the impression that we want them out of this business. They have an important role to play in supporting young people to make the right, effective and appropriate decision.
Thirdly, we are moaning about schools—I do not disagree with a word my noble friend said; he made this point brilliantly—but the incentives the Government have put into the system are causing the problems. What do we do? We moan at the teachers. We are complaining about the schools responding in an entirely predictable and understandable way to the incentives that we have put into the system—including me in my time. The answer to that is to change the incentives, but we want to leave the incentives in place and change the behaviour. That will not work. Where is the discussion about changing the incentives because that is the surest way of changing behaviour? I agree absolutely with the noble Lord, Lord Baker, that the UTCs are a force for good. They had a difficult birth and baptism but they are still a major player in the field. In a way, they encapsulate the problems of the incentives in the system. Their very existence is threatened because we have the wrong incentives, and I say that collectively of politics and Parliament. The case he has made about having access to young people is strong, but other things need to be done as well.
My only concern about Amendment 61 is that it is too easy to say, “Leave it to Ofsted. It cannot be a good school unless it has good careers education provision”. We always say that, and then every 10 years we have to prune what we ask Ofsted to inspect. We pile so much on to Ofsted. With every new initiative that is introduced we say, “Let’s get Ofsted to inspect it”. That is how the relationship between schools and Ofsted breaks down; the inspectors are always seen as the bearer of the big stick. I want to turn the amendment the other way around. We are saying that if a school does not have good careers education, it will go into “requires improvement” or “special measures” because those are the only two categories left. There are implications in that for a college that we ought to be aware of if Ofsted is to be used as the lever in this. It is a bit mean, or premature, to put a college into the “requires improvement” or “special measures” category because it has not got right a plank of policy that we have not got right either. It behoves us to get our bit right before we say to any educational provider, “If you don’t get this right”—despite the fact that we have not—“you will go into ‘requires improvement’ or ‘special measures’ and the consequences will be big”.
I say to the Minister that we would not be having this conversation if we had more information about the Government’s plans for the careers strategy. It is a big and dangerous hole at the moment and therefore I strongly support the amendments, with the caveat about Amendment 61.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, the incentive I would like to see is schools being allowed to take credit for the performance of the children they let go into technical education. If a child might get only Ds in history and English but they are good for an A* in BTEC business, and the school can get credit for that, the school’s interests will align with the child. It would also be a good thing for the performance tables. We have superb data because it is easy enough to collect them, but why should a school be penalised for a kid who arrives in the year before GCSEs, having had a dreadful education beforehand? That is not fair; nor is it fair that a school which has really looked after a child and brought them on to the point where they have the get up and go to attend a UTC then gets no credit for it. If a school feels that the best interests of the child will align with the way it is going to appear in the tables, there is a real hope for making progress in this area. We should be doing this anyway to ensure equity between schools, so I hope that this is a direction we might consider going in.
I like the amendment about a technical version of UCAS, which is immensely helpful to schools. Everything is in one place and it would all look and feel the same. You know how it works and what is required and it becomes easy to provide support and advice for the children using it.
Apprenticeships are a great challenge. Companies have a horrible habit of not admitting they have apprenticeship places until about two weeks before they want people to apply. They suddenly appear, enough people apply, and they disappear again. This is not the way in which a school can work or how young people should be asked to work. We have to discipline companies to make it clear in good time that they are open to apprenticeships so that people who are interested can see what is on offer year round and put their names down. I know that it will never be a regular cycle such as UCAS, but we need to discipline the system so that it works in the interests of children, and something like UCAS would help. A UCAS system would also provide a place to find all the information. If someone is looking for an apprenticeship they might not cotton on to who the education provider is, who to go to, which Ofsted report applies, where to look to find the outcomes, and other data that will tell them whether a particular apprenticeship is worth while. Something like UCAS would draw all that together. I would not actually use UCAS. It is a horrible institution that believes in making as much money as possible from the students passing through its system and it is run in the interests of universities rather than kids. But as a concept it is great, and we really ought to see whether we can do something along those lines.
It is high time that Amendment 11 was brought in. We all know how badly schools can behave. The noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Yardley, says that it is a matter of incentives as well. Let us have a structure which provides the stick and the carrot—this is the stick. Let us have a system where schools know that they are expected to do things. I presume that access means physical access. It cannot just be, “Well, we’ll pass your emails on”. Clearly the access will be moderated by the school and the teacher will sit down with the kid afterwards and tell them where they need to be really careful about such and such. However, at least it is progress in the right direction.
I hope that we might look at expanding subsection (3). There are some really important intermediary organisations which perform a function in this area. To name just one—Women in Construction. It performs a specialist job and looks after a particular subset of pupils, and it is doing that in a co-ordinated way, which makes it much better than your average local FE college, let alone a building company that happens to have some apprentices. Giving access to some of these collaborative organisations is a very useful supplement to the direct education and apprenticeship providers.
Turning to the carrot element again, there are other ways of doing this, and that is what my Amendment 34A seeks to achieve. It would allow money to flow to schools and organisations and would open up in a positive way the pipeline between what is going on in the creation of technical opportunity and the kids in schools.
There is a lot beyond what appears in Amendment 1l and schools are doing much that is positive. They invite people in to talk, and make arrangements for internships and work experience placements for their children. A lot of organisations are helping, but it is an immense burden on a school at a time when we are facing something like an 8% cash reduction for schools over the next three years. It is a hell of a thing to ask a school to add to its functions without in any way adding to its budget.
Baroness Whitaker (Lab)
I apologise that I was not able to be at the Second Reading of the Bill and I declare an interest as a fellow of the Working Men’s College, whose chair I used to be. I support all these amendments but I shall speak briefly to Amendments 9 and 11. Careers advice has not exactly been the jewel in the crown of maintained education, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, said. It is imperative that our young people have comprehensive advice on routes to the later stages of education. That will give them the capacity to fulfil themselves as well as help them to build up the technical expertise our economy needs. We have never been in more need. I think that the Government approve of choice, so I hope that the Minister will accept the amendment.
Lord Knight of Weymouth (Lab)
My Lords, I also apologise that I was not able to speak at Second Reading and I remind the Committee of my interests in respect of my employment at TES, which is probably where I was when the Second Reading debate took place. As others have said, careers education has been a failure under successive Governments, including the one of which I was a part. It is a hard area to resource well and it is hard for professionals in this area to keep up with the real world. From the contacts I have had with careers education professionals, they feel that the situation is getting worse, but that is for people generally to judge. I certainly mourn the loss of the education business partnerships that were part of keeping schools in touch with employers in their localities.
I join with those who are looking forward to a careers strategy from the Government, as set out in Amendment 2, but I am not sure about Amendment 9 and the need for a platform. I remind the Committee that UCAS itself has apprenticeship routes on it. You can search for apprenticeships on the UCAS website. I also remind the Committee that there are other providers. There is a company called Unifrog, which has been set up by a young man who is a Teach First ambassador. It takes the API feed from UCAS, provides a range of advice around apprenticeships, higher education and various learning providers, and as far as I can see it does that very well. I have some scepticism about requiring the Government to set up websites when others are providing them perfectly well and are probably better able to keep up with how technology is being used on the ground by young people.
I am very pleased to see that Amendment 11 would apply to all schools, including academies. I see that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, has added his name to it. I remember a similar amendment to the Education and Skills Act 2008 requiring the provision of impartial careers advice, but that applied only to local maintained schools because my then fellow Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, did not want it to apply to academies. However, there were not very many of those at the time. I also remember that in the following year the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act came in which required all post-16 institutions to give specific advice on apprenticeships.
To an extent, we have been here before. That is why the comments of my noble friend Lady Morris are so important on the incentives, and indeed the disincentives, in the system around giving impartial careers advice. So much is loaded on the intellectual, academic route and, in the end, that is what our schools system is designed for. It was designed in a bygone age to route people towards intellectual destinations in the knowledge that there would be a lot of wastage along the way but that those people would be picked up by the labour market employing them in factories or by marriage to someone who worked in a factory. However, we do not live in that labour market any more.
The substantive point I want to make to the Committee is this: how are we going to keep up with the rapid changes in the skills environment that are going on in the labour market? How do we ensure that these apprenticeship qualifications continue to have currency with the level of technological and demographic change that is altering things so dramatically? How do we ensure that careers advisers know the reality of what is changing? Demographic change means that a child starting school last September has a more than 50% chance of living to be over 100. The only way it is affordable for them to live to such a ripe old age is for them to carry on working into their 80s. They will have a 60-year working life and will, therefore, change career on many occasions. We need a skills infrastructure that allows them to be credited for the skills they acquire in work, to take short, intensive breaks from work to acquire new skills, and to take longer sabbatical periods to reacquaint themselves, if they have been there before, with higher education. How we design that is a big challenge, as is how we give young people through their educational journey, particularly their statutory one, a fundamental love of learning and the skills to learn so that they can retrain as technology deskills them. That way, they will have the resilience and reflective ability to understand that need.
Yesterday, I was discussing an Oxford University study, being done jointly with NESTA, on the skills needed for 2030. It is a bit of a mug’s game trying to predict what those might be, but a good projection is that the particularly vulnerable skills are in transport, customer services and sales, administration, and skilled construction and agricultural trades. These are among the themes that are picked up in the letter we were so pleased to receive from the Minister yesterday and in the 15 routes set out in the Sainsbury review. But some of those will go. For example, we have seen huge investment into driverless vehicles, particularly in Silicon Valley, and know the number of people who will be affected if that investment achieves a return—we can be pretty sure that it will over the next 20, 30 or 40 years. We have also seen the first humanless retail outlets being opened by Amazon. We can start to see some of these changes taking place, and I question how we are going to keep the advice, qualifications and structure sufficiently agile to keep up with the rapidity with which these changes may come and the new sectors that will emerge. We should not be wholly pessimistic about what will happen to the labour market, but advanced cognitive skills will undoubtedly be in increasing demand as artificial intelligence and robots take over some occupational categories.
How often does the Minister see the occupational categories set out in Schedule 1 being reviewed? How often are we likely to review the agility of the qualifications themselves? Qualifications generally are losing credibility with many employers because it takes too long to design them and get them approved. In particular, the suggestion set out in the letter—of procurement on a single licence for each one—means that whoever wins the qualification has to get a return on investment for delivering it. That might lock them into a period that removes the very agility that I am talking about. Finally, and most importantly, how will the new institute work with employers to ensure that that agility is informed by the best possible predictions about future skills needs five and 10 years hence?
Baroness Cohen of Pimlico
My Lords, I support the amendments in general. I declare an interest as a director of Parkside Federation Academies Multi-Academy Trust and as a governor of the UTC Cambridge UK. We have had all the difficulties recruiting for the UTC that the noble Lord, Lord Baker, has so eloquently adverted. No school has wanted to let us come in and take their kids.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)
My Lords, before we continue, I have a special request. Because the loop is not working, could noble Lords speak up when they are contributing? Thank you.
Baroness Cohen of Pimlico
My Lords, I had got as far as noting that the university technical college in Cambridge had encountered major difficulties with recruitment. The jury is still out on this, but the technical college has joined the Parkside multi-academy trust, and we believe that because the multi-academy trust has financial responsibility for all four secondary schools in our charge, it is probably going to be a little easier to envisage recruiting children from one of our schools over into the academy trust, if they would be better suited there. But it seems to me a possible route to help the UTCs, because the money does not go away from the multi-academy trust—it stays in. We hope this will be a little better.
On careers advice generally, I support the amendments. However, I have been wondering, particularly in view of the provisions that make the Institute for Apprenticeships responsible for producing careers advice, whether one ought to take it away from schools. It is very difficult for a school to keep up with its expertise, but then I was horribly reminded by my noble friend Lady Morris that individual teachers at a school are very influential in what their students choose to go on and do. So I wonder whether we could group schools’ careers advice. We could probably do that inside a multi-academy trust, and I will take home from this debate the suggestion that we try. For example, the University of Cambridge provides a perfectly effective careers service, with professional, HR-trained people, who will never have met the people whose careers they are advising on but seem to be doing it perfectly satisfactorily. Providing experts in careers, rather than forcing teachers to become experts, might have legs as an idea. Indeed, I know there are parents paying for professional careers advice because it works better than what they are being offered by the school. I do not want to propose it as a formal amendment, but I would be interested to know the Government’s thinking on that.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, I will endeavour to be brief, because we have had a very extensive debate on this. I particularly support Amendment 11, because that is probably the most practical way forward. On careers advice, I incline to the point that my noble friend Lady Morris made. Whatever you do, you cannot take away the role of teachers, who are a very powerful and continuing day-to-day influence. However, as my noble friend pointed out, the problem is that the incentives are to direct their young people towards the sixth forms, which we encouraged or allowed many of them to set up. The point about the financial incentive is a difficult one, but nevertheless will not go away.
As for where people get information about apprenticeships, I cannot help but remind my noble friend Lord Knight that we set up the Apprenticeship Vacancy Matching Service, which I think is referred to in the letter, and that is still there as part of the National Apprenticeships Service. It is true that not all employers register their apprenticeships there, but there are certainly significant numbers on there and we should not ignore that.
What I really want to address is what happens when I go into secondary schools and speak to the sixth form: when I ask the students where they are going I get the inevitable response that mostly they are going to uni. Then when you ask them what the alternative career paths are, if you are lucky you will get one or two answers. They might mention apprenticeships. Apart from all the compulsory stuff that is outlined in Amendment 11, which I am not opposed to, it seems important that every school ought to have links with business, as has been said, such as the collaborative links that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, referred to, which are good.
If you want to really enthuse and inspire young people about apprenticeships, the best thing you can do is send successful apprentices back into the schools. There is no better influence than sending young people back in to say, “Look, I’m doing it. I’m not going to get a £50,000 debt. I’m likely to get to a job at the end of it”. Young people are not stupid. They soon begin to think about the attractions of earn while you learn, with a definite job destination as well. I do not know how we will encourage that but we certainly should. If we are talking seriously about trying to improve the brand image of apprenticeships—the esteem in which they are held by both pupils and parents—this surely has to be a part of that process.
Again, it is interesting when you go into secondary schools and look at what they are proud of—on the walls you always see the number of people who have gone on to university, especially Oxford and Cambridge. I have yet to go to a school which has another board saying, “These people were our successful apprentices. They had degree-level apprenticeships. These people graduated in apprenticeships”. Some companies are now beginning to realise the importance of having a graduation ceremony on the completion of apprenticeships. That is another important way of improving the brand.
I will address the point made by my noble friend Lord Knight about the 15 routes and whether they will survive. The good thing about them is that they are generic. Look at transport and logistics: the nature of transport might change but it will still be there in one form or another. I am not too worried about that. However, how they actually work out in defining future skill needs will be a real challenge for the Institute for Apprenticeships. We have some very powerful indicators of what the needs are. If we look at the demographics of the engineering industry or the construction industry, we see that there are huge numbers of vacancies. The biggest age groups there are those in their 50s and 60s. We know there is significant demand there, as well as in information technology. Taken at its broadest description, there is significant demand there. I hope that when the Minister replies he will address some of these points.
My noble friend Lord Knight was right to remind us that if you look at the career path of young people who are starting their careers, they will require lifelong learning and probably will change their careers a number of times. Who knows, we might even get to the point of introducing significant sabbaticals for everybody, so that they can take career breaks. We still have a very fixed attitude towards employment. I welcome the amendments and I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Lord Nash
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Watson of Invergowrie and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, for the first of four amendments relating to the important matter of careers education and guidance.
We are committed to transforming the nature of careers guidance to underpin our reforms to technical education and apprenticeships. This will give everyone the necessary skills and training to open up opportunities and jobs for their future. We set out in the industrial strategy Green Paper that we will publish a comprehensive careers strategy for all ages. The Minister, Robert Halfon, set out the key principles of our approach in a speech last month. The strategy will look carefully at the role of careers provision in supporting people from primary school right through to retirement. It will look at how we can ensure widespread and high-quality support, and how that leads to jobs and security. The strategy will focus on giving people the information they need to access education and training through their working lives. This will include steps to raise the prestige of technical education and make it easier for people to apply for opportunities.
Our careers strategy will be at the heart of the Government’s focus on social justice. We want to nurture the aspirations of those who are disadvantaged and ensure that everyone, regardless of background, has the opportunity to succeed in life. I do not accept the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that stripping advice away from Connexions resulted in a decline in careers education. I have spoken to many young people who engaged with Connexions and I have to say that I found few fans. As the noble Lords, Lord Storey and Lord Knight, and the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, acknowledged, there is no previous golden age of careers education. It has always been pretty poor. What is clear is that the more engagement with the world of work that students in school have, the more engaged they become in their studies, and the more they realise why they are at school. McKinsey carried out a good study across Europe, which concluded that one-to-one careers advice was generally of little value and that the best experience was project-based working with employers.
That is why we have made such a significant investment in this area, including £70 million or so in the Careers & Enterprise Company and nearly £80 million in the National Careers Service. The work of both organisations provides an excellent base on which to build. The National Careers Service’s website receives over 24 million visits a year and supports more than 650,000 people in community locations with face-to-face advisers. The Careers & Enterprise Company, ably run by Claudia Harris, has made a great start. As my noble friend Lord Aberdare said, it has made good progress in rolling out its enterprise adviser network. Some 1,500 schools and colleges now have an enterprise adviser, helping them connect with local employers to provide experience of the workplace for young people. The company is also scaling up the number of business mentors—a subject close to the heart of the noble Baroness, Lady Morris—who work with young people at risk of underachieving or dropping out of education. Our goal is for 25,000 young people a year to benefit from this by 2020.
We will carefully evaluate the effect that our work has on careers provision. As of January, we are including destination data in national performance tables. They will help ensure that schools and colleges place an even greater importance on helping their students transition successfully to positive destinations. We fully acknowledge the importance of strong partnership working. As we develop the Government’s careers strategy, we will work with a diverse group of stakeholders, such as the Institute for Apprenticeships.
I welcome the obvious commitment to high-quality careers provision that noble Lords have shown in proposing this new clause. The Government share that commitment. However, it is our view that because we have set out the principles of our approach to careers and have confirmed that we will publish a strategy later this year, the proposed new clause is not necessary.
The noble Baroness, Lady Morris, said that people moaned about teachers—I am not quite sure in what context. Certainly, this Government are not moaning about them in the context of careers. Teachers are busy people and it is important that they identify the passions, interests and aptitudes of their pupils, but they cannot be expected to keep up with the rapidly changing world of work and make those important links to businesses that are so necessary. The noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, said how important they were. It is important that we link schools to the world of work. That is what the Careers & Enterprise Company and its advisers are all about. I personally believe that all schools should have one person focused purely on engaging with careers, the world of work and all those wonderful, free resources available to schools, if they would only engage with them, from many charities and employers. We do this in my academy group and I recommend it. The payback in terms of pupil engagement is massive and we should engage with this model in more detail. The noble Lord, Lord Knight, asked how we might revise the various pathways and qualifications. Obviously in this rapidly changing world we need to revise them on a regular basis.
I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Watson and Lord Hunt, for tabling Amendment 9 and I am pleased that they share the Government’s enthusiasm for a new system that would give prospective technical education students clear information and better support throughout the application process. We consider this new system to be key to ensuring that technical education is more on a par with academic education. Therefore, it is important to get it right. While I appreciate the keenness of noble Lords to have detailed proposals for the new system as soon as possible, it is important that we take the time to explore all the options. This will allow us to ensure that the new system meets the needs of the students who use it. We are considering the scope and implications of the new system, including working with a number of key stakeholders to discuss the potential options. It is crucial that the new system can support our ambition to increase the number of people pursuing quality technical education options. This is too important to rush. We intend fully to deliver on proposals for the system as set out in the industrial strategy Green Paper published just last month, but it would not aid the development of this complex project to commit to particular timescales at this stage. For these reasons, I hope that the noble Lord will feel reassured enough to not move the amendment.
I thank my noble friend Lord Baker for tabling Amendment 11 and pay tribute to him for his work in developing the UTC programme, which is now offering young people a technical education at 48 UTCs across the country. I particularly enjoyed his unbiased commercial for them. The amendment would require schools to give education and training providers the opportunity to talk directly to pupils about the approved technical education qualifications and apprenticeships that they offer. I agree that it would strengthen the Bill by promoting technical education and apprenticeship opportunities more effectively so that young people can make more informed and confident choices at important transition points.
As a number of noble Lords have said, the range of information on education and training options that young people receive is too narrow. Ofsted’s 2013 careers survey, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Storey, found that college-based technical education, training and apprenticeships were rarely promoted effectively. We need to address this if young people are to benefit from the Government’s ambitious skills reforms which are supported by this Bill. We want institutions to co-operate in the best interests of young people. A school that chooses not to invite a local UTC or an FE college to speak to young people denies them information about opportunities which might be better suited to their long-term career goals, and does them no favours at all.
We need to tackle the myth that apprenticeships and technical options are not suited to high-achieving pupils. A study by the Sutton Trust in 2014 found that 65% of teachers would not advise a pupil with the grades for university to pursue an apprenticeship. I agree with noble Lords that it is time to end this outdated approach. We must get away from a two-tier system of careers advice where the information that young people get from their schools fails to correct or even reinforces the impression that college-based technical education and apprenticeships are second best to academic study. Schools will be required by law to collaborate with UTCs, studio schools, further education colleges and other training providers. This will ensure that young people hear more consistently about alternatives to academic routes and are aware of all the routes to higher skills and into the workplace. This is vital if we are to set our technical education on a par with the best in the world. I thank my noble friend for this thoughtful amendment and I accept it.
Amendment 61 was spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Storey. I begin by saying that I appreciate the intent behind this proposed new clause. Our careers strategy will not be effective unless schools and colleges are held to account for the quality of their careers provision. Ofsted has an important role to play in this regard. However, I do not believe that the amendment is necessary because the current inspection grading structure provides appropriate coverage of careers provision. Ofsted has already sharpened its approach to the inspection of careers provision. As part of standard Ofsted college inspections, inspectors make graded judgments on: effectiveness of leadership and management; quality of teaching, learning and assessment; personal development, behaviour and welfare; and pupil outcomes. Matters relating to careers provision feature in all four of these judgments.
It is important that, in reaching judgments, inspectors are able to balance their considerations on a range of aspects to form an overall view, rather than this being determined by one specific aspect of a college’s provision. Furthermore, Ofsted evaluates provision offered by the college, including 16-to-19 study programmes, apprenticeships and traineeships. Judgments about all the types of provision within the inspection framework are informed by consideration of the quality of careers provision, work experience and the development of employability skills.
Destination data are now a more significant part of college accountability. For the first time last month, destination data featured as a headline measure in 16-18 performance tables. This encourages a sharper focus on how well colleges prepare their students to make a successful transition. I hope I have provided sufficient reassurance that colleges are held to account properly for the quality of their careers provision. I urge the noble Lord to not move his amendment.
Turning to the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, I thank him for his interest in this important matter. I agree that it is essential that the careers information, advice and guidance provided covers the full range of options available so that young people can make important choices about their future pathways. Schools and colleges must secure independent careers guidance. In doing so, they should provide access to a range of activities such as employer talks or hearing from young apprenticeship ambassadors. However, it would not be appropriate for the Government to distort the independence of careers advice and guidance by finding recruiters who promoted a single pathway over others.
The Secretary of State already has very broad powers to fund education and training. Funding for schools is provided by the EFA, and it can implement any policies that require adjustments to government funding for schools. In addition, we do not think the amendment is necessary from a legal perspective. The Secretary of State can fund matters connected to apprenticeships under Section 101A, which was inserted into the Deregulation Act 2015, and we are able to fund matters connected to technical education under Section 101B, which is provided for in the Bill. In view of what I have said, I hope the noble Lord will not move his amendment.
Lastly, I shall comment on remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, about the extension of the succinct five-line amendment produced by my noble friend Lord Baker. I would be happy to set up a teach-in with the draftsmen in the department as to precisely why this is necessary, but I am assured that it is. With regard to her general comment about the number of policies that she seems to be burdened with, I would be delighted to hear from her—I am sorry to see that she is not in her place—about how we might reduce these. I always welcome suggestions for reducing bureaucracy. To take a leaf out of my noble friend Lord Baker’s book, when I finish this job I think I shall try to jump on the next piece of education legislation and try to bring in a law that precis should be taught in schools again at every possible opportunity. In view of what I have said, I hope noble Lords will feel able to respectively withdraw or not move their amendments.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that comprehensive response. I am very pleased that he has accepted the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Baker. Like my noble friend Lady Morris of Yardley, I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Baker, and the UTC movement; I agree that UTCs are a force for good. It may have been an advert, but I thought the destination analysis that the noble Lord referred to—the fact that so much information is available—was good, and on the face of it the statistics in relation to apprenticeship and university places are impressive. All I would say to the Government is that I hope they hold their nerve in supporting UTCs in the future.
We are all agreed that we want to see quality advice given to young people and their parents. The careers strategy is going to be very important, and the Minister has set out some of the things that are going to be in it. I thought the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, were important, because often schools are burdened by many regulations and requirements. I guess in the end it will be made clear to schools in the statute guidance issued by the Minister—succinctly, I hope—what is required, without having to go into enormous detail about how that is going to be done. I recognise that that is difficult, but we come back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, and my noble friend Lady Morris: we have to recognise that in the end we will want schools to wish to do it. Statutory intervention is necessary because that is not happening at the moment, but in the end we somehow have to get to a stage where schools want to do the right thing.
I agree with my noble friend that teachers are not going to be experts in careers advice—the Minister is absolutely right about that—but they can be very influential in setting the terms in which young people will listen to that careers advice. Perhaps we are mistaken: it is the teachers who should go to the Skills Show. Part of this has to be an educational programme with teachers about the opportunities for apprenticeships, alongside the links with business and employment that the noble Lord has talked about.
Lord Baker of Dorking
Before the amendment is withdrawn, I thank everybody who spoke in this debate for the support they have given my amendment. I also thank the Minister because we have been dealing with UTCs together for nearly four years and he has seen the successes and also the problems we have. This clause helps very much with our big problems of recruitment. I thank the clerk who did the five-liner. Her name is Susannah Street and she is a star.
I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, who is not here, that every word of the clause is needed because the clause is going to be met with great hostility in every school in the country. They are going to be required, by September, to produce a policy for implementing a right for people to come and tell them about other competitive sources of learning and training. It will require all the resources of the department and the powers of the Secretary of State to ensure that this happens, so that in September and October of this year we should have providers going into all the schools. It is not an easy pathway but it has the full support of the Government and I welcome that very much.
“Institutional autonomy and academic freedom
(1) The Secretary of State, in issuing guidance and directions, and the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education, in performing its functions, have a duty to uphold the principle of institutional autonomy for English further education institutions.(2) In this section “institutional autonomy” means—(a) the autonomy of English further education institutions—(i) to determine which courses to teach, the contents of particular courses and the manner in which they are taught, supervised and assessed,(ii) to determine the criteria for the selection, appointment, promotion, remuneration, and dismissal of academic staff; and to apply those criteria in particular cases,(iii) to determine the criteria for the admission of students and to apply those criteria in particular cases, and(iv) to constitute and to govern themselves in a manner which they deem appropriate for their purposes, subject to legal requirements relating to the corporate form and purposes that they may adopt; and(b) the freedom of academic staff within the law—(i) to question and test received wisdom, and (ii) to put forward new ideas and controversial or unpopular opinions, without placing themselves in jeopardy of losing jobs or any privileges they may have at an institution.(3) All persons or bodies exercising powers under this Act are under a duty to protect the principle of academic freedom in accordance with subsection (2)(b).”
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
My Lords, I hope that this group of amendments will take rather less time than the previous group.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)
We will pass Amendment 11 when we come to it.
Lord Baker of Dorking
Yes, of course. I am anticipating—sorry. I will have to wait.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
The noble Lord, Lord Baker is, of course, a novice at these procedures; or perhaps, like me, he is still getting his breath back following the words “I accept” from the Minister, which were much welcomed.
This is a probing amendment and, to some extent, a read-across from the Higher Education and Research Bill. It is pretty much self-explanatory, although that does not mean I can resist the temptation to say a few words. Almost three decades have passed since the Education Reform Act 1988 ended the tenure that had long been enjoyed by British academics, but an amendment to that legislation protected in law the freedom of academics to question and test received wisdom and to put forward new ideas and controversial and occasionally unpopular opinions without placing themselves in jeopardy of losing their jobs or the privileges they may have had at their institution. That right that should apply across the board to all academics, whether in higher or further education. I accept that this is an issue of more concern in higher education, but increasing staff insecurity in further education colleges and other further education providers leads us to believe that the principles that apply in higher education should also apply in further education.
The Minister may well say that academic freedom is already established by common practice, but that is not the view of teaching organisations. This amendment applies to the Secretary of State in issuing guidance and directions, and to the institution in performing its functions, giving them a duty to uphold the principles of academic freedom and institutional autonomy. It is not a draconian measure; it merely states unequivocally that institutions have the right to determine which courses to teach and who they appoint to teach them, and that academic staff have the right to speak freely about how their institution is run, what courses should be pursued and how, and to advance unconventional or perhaps unpopular opinions. Such expressions should not impact on the job security of academic staff, and for that reason we believe they have the right to have such protections clearly set out in the Bill.
Amendment 3 would also incorporate the human rights to freedom of expression, assembly, thought and belief. It is unfortunate that this amendment is necessary but, given the threats felt by universities as a result of the dramatic changes being introduced to the sector by the Higher Education and Research Bill, who is to say that providers in the further education sector will not sooner or later experience a similar feeling of threat? Forewarned is forearmed, which is why this issue must at least be highlighted today.
Freedom of speech is the subject of Amendment 7. It, too, is a provision that ought not to be necessary, but the hard facts are that it is necessary. Recent events, particularly in some educational institutions involving Jewish students or staff, demonstrate that for some people freedom of speech can and does become unlawful speech. My view on this goes back to my days as a student activist, some four decades ago, and is that a demand to no-platform a particular speaker is wrong. I have never believed that you deny someone a platform simply because you disagree with them. Even if you disagree vehemently with what they are saying, my response is that you should take them on by argument, but when that kind of speech enters the world of racism, misogyny, homophobia or threatening behaviour, it contravenes the law, and the law should intervene.
It is unfortunate that these matters have to be aired, but I believe they should be. They are matters of concern in the further education sector as well as the higher education sector. I hope the Minister will take them on board and given them due consideration. I beg to move.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, I support these amendments. We had extensive discussions on these issues during the passage of the Higher Education and Research Bill, and they are no less relevant to further education colleges. Institutional autonomy is as important for colleges, where the people who work in them really know what works for their pupils and students, and academic staff having the freedom to question and test received wisdom is just as important for colleges as it is for universities. So is freedom of speech and preventing unlawful speech, which seems an increasing aspect of student life these days. In a way, it is almost more relevant for colleges as they have such a wide variety of students under their roofs. Both these amendments are entirely relevant to this Bill.
Lord Storey
I feel quite strongly about this at both levels. Looking back 10 or 20 years, we would never have thought that we would be debating the need for academic freedom and freedom of speech in 2017. If something is against the law of the land, that person should not be allowed to propagate it in any way, but the notion that students no-platform particular speakers is totally wrong. We should say loudly and clearly that it must not happen. I just want to add my voice to these two very important amendments.
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
My Lords, turning first to Amendment 3, I think we can all agree that academic freedom and institutional autonomy are important considerations. I am sympathetic to the spirit behind the noble Lord’s amendment. The principle of institutional autonomy and academic freedom is already well entrenched in the Bill and in the existing legislation covering further education corporations. In practical terms, the principle is also very much reflected in how the Government support and work with the sector on a wide range of issues and activities.
Further education college corporations are charitable, statutory bodies under the Further and Higher Education Act 1992. Under the Act, colleges are conducted by statutory corporations, which enjoy many freedoms and powers. For example, Ministers have no powers to issue directions in respect of the administration or management of the college, whether regarding employment matters or the content of courses, except in the very restricted circumstances in which the college is failing. As charities, colleges and their governing boards must also be independent from government. The changes introduced through the Education Act 2011 strengthened this independence, for example by removing the power of Ministers to make changes to the instrument of government and articles of a corporation, which was contained in the original 1992 legislation.
The Secretary of State’s powers are therefore extremely limited. As the principal regulator of college corporations, the Secretary of State has a duty to promote compliance with charity law. In clear cases of failure, the intervention powers under the 1992 Act allow the Secretary of State to remove or appoint members of, or issue directions to, the governing body of the institution. But those are powers of last resort, where it is not possible to address failure through other means and there remains a very strong public interest in doing so. In practice, they have never been used. Indeed, outside legislation, the way in which the Government work with the further education sector more generally demonstrates full respect for the principle of autonomy.
For example, the programme of local area reviews which will draw to a close soon is based on the principle that the governing bodies of colleges are the decision-makers when considering the future organisation of provision in their local areas. The Government have established the reviews to facilitate that decision-making, working in partnership with the sector, but have not sought to impose decisions. Similarly, although professional development activities for teaching staff are supported through government funding they are delivered through a sector-owned body, the Education and Training Foundation, reflecting the independent status of colleges and other providers. The legislative framework and the day-to-day relationship with the sector already reflect these principles and there is no need to legislate further. I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
I move on to the second amendment in this group, Amendment 7. I thank noble Lords for raising the important issues of freedom of speech and unlawful speech in our further education system. I agree entirely that free speech within the law is a key principle of further education in the UK. We want students to be exposed in the course of their studies to a wide range of ideas and opinions, and to learn the skills to debate and challenge them effectively. There is an existing duty placed on further education providers to take reasonably practicable steps to secure freedom of speech within the law. That duty was introduced in the Education (No.2) Act 1986; it is taken seriously by FE providers and they have raised no issues or concerns with us in relation to its practice.
The requirement in this amendment would place an additional freedom of speech duty on providers so that they must “ensure” that staff, students and invited speakers are able to practise free speech on the premises of the providers, or in forums and events. I am sympathetic to the intention behind this amendment—championing free speech must be central to our further education sector—but it is not clear what such an additional requirement would mean in practice, nor how we would expect providers to change their policies and practices to meet the new standard. I fear the new threshold in this amendment unreasonably and unnecessarily imposes an additional and disproportionate burden on providers, in particular the duty to “ensure” freedom of speech without any caveats. To move away from a standard of taking reasonably practicable measures may well require FE providers to address matters that are simply outside their control. We should be wary of creating cases where a duty to ensure free speech could come into conflict with other, important considerations, such as the security of attendees at a particular event.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
I thank all noble Lords who spoke on this group and I welcome the noble Baroness to her first stint on the Front Bench in Grand Committee. I thank her for a thoughtful and detailed response. There are one or two points that I want to come back on. First, I accept what she said on Amendment 3; she gave a considerable amount of detail on the legislation that covers what we were seeking to achieve, and I and others will want to look at that. On that basis, she may well have dealt effectively with the issues of institutional autonomy and so on.
However, I am not so convinced by the noble Baroness’s arguments in respect of Amendment 7 on free speech, particularly when she said that introducing the provisions of this new clause could in fact stifle free speech. I find that rather a strange concept to get my head round. I noted down certain comments: she mentioned that it would require further education colleges to change policies and practices and that they have not identified problems. I would value a letter from her explaining some of her comments, such as why that would be what she termed a “disproportionate burden”—how so? She also said that it would involve colleges addressing matters that could be outwith their control, including attendees at a particular event. Any event on the premises of a college becomes its responsibility, even if the college has not organised it. If it has allowed the property to be used then it is ultimately responsible for what happens there at a meeting. I do not see how colleges can escape that and I do not see that it would be a disproportionate burden. In any case, colleges have to do basically what the amendment says—that is, ensure that,
“students, staff and invited speakers are able to practise freedom of speech within the law”.
I would therefore value some explanation of the noble Baroness’s reasoning in saying that she finds Amendment 7 unacceptable. If it is not a problem, that does not necessarily mean that nothing needs to be done. I think that this amendment would strengthen the ability of further education colleges and providers, if appropriate, to ensure that their premises were safe havens—places where people could express themselves freely and be able to engage in debate, at all times within the law. If the noble Baroness could provide a bit of additional information on that in a letter, it would be much appreciated. However, for the moment, I beg leave to withdraw.
“New further education institutions
The Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education must not recommend to the Secretary of State the authorisation of a new further education institution unless—(a) the provider has been established for a minimum of four years with satisfactory validation arrangements in place;(b) the Quality Assessment Committee is assured that the provider is able to maintain the required standard expected for the granting of approved qualifications for the duration of the authorisation; and(c) the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education is assured that the provider operates in the public interest and in the interest of students.”
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
I should say at the start that I am not quite sure why Amendments 6 and 8 have been grouped but, as they say, we are where we are.
Noble Lords may feel it a little odd that, in a Bill very largely concerned with assisting further education colleges that have slipped into insolvency, we find an amendment seeking to address new further education institutions. I am being upbeat here: it is to be hoped that the time will arrive when the Government of the day fund the further education sector adequately and the post-16 skills plan and the 15 occupational routes for apprentices are successful, so that the sector will be seen as attractive to new entrants. That is the situation in higher education and safeguards have had to be built in in anticipation of an influx of more new entrants. It may well be the case that a so-called challenger institution will seek to establish itself in the further education sector and, when that happens, the sector needs to be prepared.
It is no more than reasonable that, before the institute recommends to the Secretary of State that a new further education institution be admitted, that institution should be able to demonstrate that satisfactory validation arrangements have been in place for a minimum of four years. Noble Lords may be aware that the Higher Education and Research Bill suggests that new entrants should be able to be given, albeit temporarily, degree-awarding powers from day one. We strongly believe that that is not appropriate and that there has to be an amount of time in which an institution has shown its ability not just to operate as a business but to provide students with everything that they are entitled to expect when they sign up for courses. That is what is behind the mention of a minimum of four years in the amendment.
The Minister may say that this is unnecessary, but he said at Second Reading that he did not envisage the insolvency procedures being used other than in very rare cases. With 28 out of 45 clauses in the Bill concerned with insolvency, methinks he may have protested too much. None the less, reasonable man that I am, I am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt and accept that these clauses may well prove necessary from time to time and that we need them. In return, I hope he will be willing to accept that Amendment 6 envisages a situation that may prove equally necessary in the future, and I await his response on that point with interest.
Amendments 13 and 14 are concerned with broadening access to post-school education or training, and Amendment 14 is specifically about equality of opportunity. The Learning and Work Institute gave evidence to the Public Bill Committee in another place in which it said that people with disabilities and learning difficulties and people from black and minority ethnic backgrounds had been under-represented in apprenticeships for many years. The introduction of the institute offers an opportunity to make a real difference by improving access to apprenticeships for traditionally under-represented groups.
The Government already have targets to increase the proportion of BME apprentices by 20%. Perhaps the Minister can say whether the intention is to do the same—not necessarily in terms of the percentage but in setting targets—for people with disabilities and those leaving care. Giving the institute a duty to widen access and participation would be beneficial for all parties. Only 50% of disabled people have a job, compared with eight in 10 able-bodied people. The Government have stated their aim of halving the level of unemployment among people with disabilities, so we believe that this offers an opportunity to use apprenticeships as a step towards narrowing that gap.
When it is fully established, we believe that the institute should consider as a priority what can be done for groups which are under-represented, not only women, those from black and minority ethnic backgrounds or those leaving care but also those who leave school with no qualifications at all. During consideration of this Bill in another place, the Minister for Schools, Mr Robert Halfon, talked about traineeships and the possibility of them forming an introductory route into apprenticeships. Traineeships would be particularly appropriate for the groups of people I have mentioned when it comes to promoting equality of opportunity for access and participation. Traineeships are also appropriate for retraining, particularly as the institute has now been given additional responsibility for technical education. I hope that the Minister will follow that up with his colleagues to consider what might be achieved. I beg to move.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, I wish to speak to Amendment 8 in this group, which covers some of the same ground that we have already addressed. It seems appropriate, in setting up this new institute, to specify what it is supposed to do—its functions and duties. I have rather optimistically put its “additional” functions and duties because, looking through the Bill, it is difficult to see any clarity on what its functions and duties actually are. However, the role it will play in apprenticeship standards is obviously set out clearly in the Bill. I have added certification, although I think there is a later amendment on this aspect, which perhaps we should address at that point because I do not think it is as straightforward as it appears. It is particularly important that the institute should have an overview of where the skills shortages are and be in a position to divert funding and encourage participation to address those shortages.
The second part of the amendment deals with promotion and consultation. As we have discussed on previous amendments, having set up the new institute, surely it is only right that it should have a role in promoting apprenticeships and work-based skills. It would be a pretty poor body if it did not support the qualifications it has been set up to oversee, and we have such a long way to go. We have already discussed careers education, advice and guidance quite comprehensively, but we have heard from school leavers many accounts of the difficulties they face if they want to pursue the apprenticeship route rather than the university one.
There are steps that the Government could take, as we have already heard from the noble Lords, Lord Hunt and Lord Young, and the noble Baroness, Lady Morris. One would be to expand the measurements for school league tables to include vocational and practical achievement alongside academic results. Currently, schools get public recognition purely on their academic results, so obviously there is a lot of pressure on them to make sure that youngsters are diverted on to those routes regardless of where their aptitudes lie. They could also encourage schools to celebrate their students who leave to take up apprenticeships with the same enthusiasm they give to their university entrants. One can see on school noticeboards long lists showing how many students have gone on to university, and it would be cheering to read alongside them that a certain number went on to take up apprenticeships. However, schools do not seem to take that on board as something to celebrate. Instead, they keep trying to dissuade bright young people from seeking out apprenticeships, as we discussed when we were considering careers advice.
There was too little consultation with stakeholders before the Bill was drafted. It is difficult to believe that, in a rare further education Bill, they would have chosen that a major part of it—more than 30 clauses—should be devoted to the insolvency and financial difficulties of further education bodies. What a negative view of the sector when there are so many positive aspects of further education that could have been assisted through legislation. Even before the Bill has become law, this is having an impact. We are already hearing that, because of these provisions, banks and other financial organisations are treating colleges with some suspicion. The biggest area of current concern for colleges is the impact on local government pension scheme funds. What was the rationale in casting doubt on colleges, which will be one of the main providers of the qualifications the Government have said they wish to promote? With so many doubts being cast on the viability of the providers, how will that help to generate the 3 million apprenticeships being sought? There appear to be only sticks and no carrots from the Government.
The current situation requires very expensive financial consultants filling in enormous spreadsheets and application forms to the transaction unit—time and resources that could be spent more constructively. It may be better to have an orderly college insolvency regime that colleges hardly ever use than continuing the risk of a disorderly one, but why make it such a large part of the Bill? Which of the stakeholders supported this part of the Bill?
Lord Baker of Dorking
My Lords, I find these amendments very interesting because they pose the question of what sort of beast we are creating in the Institute for Apprenticeships. The points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, exactly address that. In the Institute for Apprenticeships we have created a body with clear functions. It has to sort out shoddy apprenticeships and try to bring some sense to the maze of technical qualifications. They are very important jobs, but they are essentially administrative, functional jobs. Surely the Institute for Apprenticeships will not be spending government money in the future; it will be spending money provided by industry and commerce. Therefore, the Government should really take a back seat from then on. They should be concentrating on what they are responsible for—the skills gap. They have to devise policies that close the skills gap. The improved apprenticeship system will do a great deal towards that, but it cannot do it alone. Closing the skills gap also needs major reforms in further education colleges to improve their effectiveness. If they had been as good as they think they are, we would not have as big a skills gap as we do at the moment.
The Government’s other responsibility is to try to ensure how our education system can improve technical education, which in fact it is destroying in schools at the moment. Those are policy matters and the main policy of the Government in this regard is what they can do to close the skills gap.
Where does that leave the Institute for Apprenticeships? It leaves it as a much more independent body. It is not spending government money. The question that the Government should be asking the Institute for Apprenticeships is: what contribution are you making to closing the skills gap? They should not therefore interfere with the institute apart from that, in my opinion. The eight directors appointed so far are quite a feisty lot of independent people. The institute should become the main policy area for apprenticeships and should do the sort of things indicated in the Liberal amendment.
This is a very different body, I suspect, from the one the Government think they are setting up. They still want to keep their sticky fingers on the Institute for Apprenticeships even though they are not providing the money. The money is being provided by industry and commerce—by business. The steering wheel should be taken away from them, and the Institute for Apprenticeships should become an important body, reviewing each year whether the whole apprenticeship system is right. It should decide whether apprenticeships should start at 14, not the Government—which I happen to support. It should decide about approving new providers, the terms for which are set out in Clause 6, and I am sure it would do it in a very professional way.
This is quite an interesting group of amendments, and I look forward to the Minister’s reply. This is an area that should slip away from immediate government control because the Government are not putting up the money.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I support what my noble friend has said. The Government are creating a very powerful body. It will own the intellectual property in all the technical qualifications for the routes described in the Bill. There will be no other institution with any long-term interest in evolving or maintaining those qualifications or in developing a name and a reputation that parents and others can rely on. Below the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education, we have a series of short-term contracts. City & Guilds—I sit on its council, which everyone knows is nothing, but at least indicates affection—will disappear at this level. There will be no City & Guilds qualifications; they will become qualifications of the institute for apprenticeships. City & Guilds, being a charity, may bid for a seven-year contract to be an awarding organisation or to look after one or two of the routes, but it will not be awarding City & Guilds qualifications, rather it will just provide a function for the institute.
We are creating something much closer to the German model. We are losing what remains of the lodestars that the British Computer Society, City & Guilds and others have been providing in terms of the name and quality of their qualifications and replacing them with a new structure. This structure needs to be more powerful and conscious of its role than it is described as being in the Bill. I would like to see the Government follow the logic of what they have produced in the Bill and create a creature which is capable of the long-term responsibilities being placed upon it. It may be that the Government need to acquire City & Guilds, which is after all a quasi-government organisation anyway. Perhaps they need to take it on board to provide the strength, history, continuity and the people needed to run the sort of thing that is being set up in the Bill, or at least to provide the engine for it. I do not see how dispensing with all that the good awarding bodies have created and providing a structure which does not have the power to do what is necessary is a safe way of proceeding with a very important part of our education system.
Lord Nash
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Watson and Lord Hunt, and the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, for the four amendments in this group. They address important issues relating to the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education and, in particular, what functions it will have. I will address my remarks only to these four amendments and will start by responding to Amendment 6. Ensuring that new further education institutions provide high-quality provision is of course of the utmost importance. Through the area reviews process for the further education sector, we are also putting the sector on a secure financial footing by ensuring that the provider base matches student demand.
However, the institute is to be established with a very specific remit in relation to the quality of reformed apprenticeships: to set the quality criteria for the development of apprenticeship standards and assessment plans; to approve or reject proposed standards or plans and review them periodically, as appropriate; and to ensure that all end-point assessments are quality assured, including the potential to quality assure them itself. It will also advise the Government on the maximum level of government funding available for each individual apprenticeship standard. And, of course, the proposals in this Bill seek to extend its functions to technical education qualifications and related matters. It has no role at all, and is not expected to have a role, in relation to the authorisation of new further education institutions, even those that will deliver technical education qualifications in the future. It is therefore not appropriate to make this amendment to the Bill in the light of the expected remit of the institute.
I turn to Amendment 8, for which I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, and I wish her a happy birthday.
Lord Nash
I hope that she will be pleased to hear that we plan to finish at 7.45 pm, so she will have time to enjoy it and celebrate.
The amendment includes a number of functions that are essential for the institute to be able to discharge its remit effectively. However, the institute already has responsibility for carrying out the vast majority of these functions. Setting, maintaining and overseeing standards for apprenticeships and technical education is absolutely central to its role. We will also ensure strong recognition and transferability through continuing to secure the delivery of apprenticeship certificates for reformed apprenticeships which have real value and worth for the employer and the apprentice. We expect that the institute will also have some responsibility in relation to certification, working with the Skills Funding Agency in its operational role of delivering certificates. As part of this, a record of all apprenticeship completions will be kept. The institute will use this to inform a number of its functions, including the review of standards in the context of the country’s wider skills needs.
Section ZA2 of the 2009 Act, inserted by the Enterprise Act 2016, requires the institute to have regard to the reasonable requirements of those with an interest in apprenticeships. This includes many of those listed in the amendment, including employers, apprentices and technical education students. The Government are able to write to the institute with guidance to which it must have regard when carrying out its functions; this can include asking it to consult certain bodies. We have just completed a consultation exercise on the draft of the first guidance document which asked the institute to work with particular organisations, such as those listed in the amendment, when carrying out particular functions.
We share the noble Baroness’s enthusiasm for the promotion of apprenticeships in schools and colleges. Legislation is in place that requires schools to inform pupils about apprenticeships and other options. Noble Lords will be aware that we have recently announced a careers strategy and we will consider how apprenticeships can be promoted in schools and colleges as part of the development of that strategy.
Moving on to Amendment 13, I fully understand the importance of ensuring that all young people are able to access a range of suitable education and training opportunities, including technical education and apprenticeships where appropriate. I know that this concern is shared by a great number of noble Lords, some of whom made eloquent and most welcome contributions at Second Reading, including the noble Lord, Lord Addington, my noble friend Lady Stedman-Scott and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. The key to achieving this aim is to ensure that suitable provision is available to accommodate the needs of a wide range of learners. The effect of this amendment would be to require the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education, when exercising its functions, to have regard to the duty of local authorities to ensure that sufficient provision is available for all young people in their areas between the ages of 16 and 19, as well as for those young people in their areas aged 19 to 25 who are covered by an education, health and care plan.
I would like to reassure noble Lords that I am absolutely mindful of the need to ensure that the institute takes account of the needs of all learners, including those who have had a difficult start in life or who have special educational needs and disabilities. However, legal provision has already been made to ensure this. Section ZA2(1) of the 2009 Act, when it is commenced in April, will require the institute to take account of a range of factors, including the reasonable requirements of persons who wish to undertake training and education, when carrying out its functions. This will apply regardless of the type of provider serving those learners or indeed how that provision has been commissioned. As many young people as possible should be able to access technical education, which is valued by employers and has been approved by the institute. Noble Lords will also be aware that the Equality Act 2010 places a duty on public sector bodies, including the institute, to promote equality of opportunity across all forms of education and to ensure that their actions do not disadvantage those with protected characteristics, including disability, pregnancy and maternity.
Our wider reforms will also support access for those who have low prior attainment or require additional support. In particular, the transition year will provide young people aged 16 or older where their education has been delayed, with tailored catch-up provision to enable them to access the same range of education and training opportunities as their peers, getting them back on track and helping to tackle the challenges they face obtaining qualifications valuable to their future career prospects.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
I thank the Minister for that response and thank the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, for her contribution. I should have said at the start that we support the suggestions in Amendment 8. I noticed that the Minister said that most of these were already covered. That impacts on a point that I will come back to in a minute about the operational plan for the institute.
The Minister somewhat took the wind out of my sails on Amendment 6 by saying that there was no role for the institute with regard to new institutions. I take it that just the Secretary of State would have the ability to give them the green light, if that is the case. In which case, I am rather surprised that it got accepted as an amendment. None the less, I hear what the Minister says, and if that is the case, so be it.
On Amendment 14 in particular, the Minister did not answer a couple of the questions I put to him. One was the point about the percentages for categories of those underrepresented in the take-up of apprenticeships. I mentioned the 20% target for people from black and minority ethnic communities and asked whether there were plans for anything similar for women, care leavers and indeed any other underrepresented groups. I am happy for him to write to me on that. I do not suggest what the percentages should be, but these are underrepresented, so by definition it is appropriate that some action is taken to bring them more into line with other groups.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
Yes, but that is a bit woolly. Students have always had the opportunity; the point is that certain groups are not taking it up in sufficient numbers. It would be interesting to know why black and minority ethnic people have been specifically identified, and yet others have not. If work needs to be done there to bring underrepresented groups more into the mainstream, surely the institute should concentrate particularly on that. However, that would impact on the institute’s operational plan. In the Minister’s letter today, he mentioned that the shadow institute’s draft operational plan is out for consultation but only for a few more days. He said that that will provide more detail on how the institute would be expected to deliver its role. I have not yet looked at that but I will do so. I hope that it will have something to say on broadening participation because we may wish to return to that matter on Report.
For the moment, we have covered the issues and I thank the Minister for his response. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“Technical Education Qualifications”
In this Part “technical education qualifications” means the full range of work-based qualifications, whether technical, craft, creative, public sector, or professional.”
Baroness Garden of Frognal
The amendment is in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Storey. I have previously raised concerns about the limitations of the word “technical” in the Bill. The long-standing term “vocational”, which was inclusive of all trades, crafts and professions that involved skills and practical aptitudes, has apparently fallen out of favour and “technical” has been deemed to carry more status. However, stonemasons, florists, film-makers, nurses, care workers and caterers do not see themselves as primarily technical operatives.
I worked for City & Guilds for 20 years. In my day, we did not think of it as a quasi-governmental organisation but rather as a long-standing, highly respected, royal chartered, charitable educational organisation. But there we are. I hope that times have not changed too much. In my day there were two main strands of vocational qualification—technical and craft. Then there were personal services, which was another important skill area, in which people skills were of paramount importance.
At Second Reading, the Minister, in reply to my question about whether craft, creative and service skills were intended to be covered by technical education, said:
“The answer is that they are”.—[Official Report, 1/2/17; col. 1261.]
However, the Bill does not say that. It is surely only in an Alice in Wonderland world, or perhaps even under the new American regime, that words mean what I say they mean. I checked the dictionary—at my age, one has to do that sort of thing—and found that the prime definition of technical is,
“pertaining to the mechanical arts and applied sciences”.
It was some comfort to find a secondary definition, which was,
“appropriate to a particular art, science, profession or occupation”.
That is better but not what is widely understood by “technical”.
For everyday purposes, the Bill should not be marginalising all those whose practical, work-based achievements are in craft, personal services or creative fields. The wording in my amendment may need some changes but the gist is that “technical” does not cover the myriad of work-based achievements. It needs expanding to be more inclusive if the new institute is really to be seen as a champion for all types of skill and practical achievement.
Rather than go through the whole Bill expanding “technical” each time it is mentioned, I propose that at the outset we explain that non-technical work skills will also come within the remit of the Bill. I hope that the Minister will see that this makes sense and be prepared to accept this modest and, I hope, helpful amendment. I beg to move.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, there is virtue in encompassing all this sort of education within one structure. I do not see the point in excluding bits because, presumably, they are felt to fall below the status of “technical”. Areas such as retail or caring are as technical as a lot of jobs that are included in this structure. I therefore hope that this is an amendment and approach to which the Government will give consideration.
Lord Aberdare
My Lords, I add only one very small point: it seems to me that part of the problem with the esteem in which some of these technical and professional qualifications are held is that they are seen in a rather narrow light. The word “technical” rather reinforces the problem. A lot of people who might be interested in creative or public sector qualifications or some others might be put off by the word “technical”, which makes it seem more narrow than it needs to be.
Lord Nash
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Garden of Frognal, and the noble Lord, Lord Storey, for tabling this amendment. I understand that they wish to ensure that all technical or work-based qualifications are included within these reforms and can benefit from them. I assure them that all relevant and appropriate occupations in the economy will be covered within the technical education routes and the qualifications offered to students following these routes. However, having thought carefully about how to achieve this, we hope to address it in the following way.
Each route, of which there are currently 15, provides a framework for grouping together occupations where there are shared training requirements. Each route will have an occupational map. Each map will identify all the occupations in the scope of that route, such as the digital route or the engineering and manufacturing route. These maps are currently being developed through a robust, evidence-based process, with input from employers, employer representatives, industry professionals and professional bodies.
It is important to be clear, however, that it will not be appropriate to include some occupations within the routes. The independent panel of the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury, established the principle, which we have adopted, that technical education must require the acquisition of both a substantial body of technical knowledge and a set of practical skills valued by industry. As the panel made clear, there are some unskilled or low-skilled occupations which do not meet this requirement, as they can be learned quickly and on the job; such as that of a retail assistant. Therefore, it is not necessary or appropriate to offer technical education qualifications to people wishing to work in one of these occupations. It would not be the best use of their time or of taxpayers’ money.
With this exception, I can assure the noble Baroness and the noble Lord that within the technical education routes there will be comprehensive coverage of the skilled occupations that are vital to the success of our economy. I can also assure them that the occupational maps will be reviewed regularly to ensure that they continue to reflect the needs of industry. We will listen to any evidence-based case from an employer who identifies a gap, if it meets the above criteria and they can demonstrate employer need and a genuine skills gap. I hope that the noble Baroness and the noble Lord will feel reassured enough to withdraw this amendment.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
Before the noble Baroness responds, I have two points. The Minister quoted from the Sainsbury review the definition of “technical” education. Why has that not found itself in the Bill? If the Sainsbury definition is going to set the boundaries of the 15 pathways, would it not have been helpful to pin it down some more? The noble Baroness, Lady Garden, is absolutely right to say that it would have been helpful to have that in the Bill.
My second point comes back to the issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare. Sadly, in this country, “technical” does not have the status that we want it to have. You cannot legislate for that, but as we go through this it would have been interesting to hear from the Government how, in general, they think we are going to raise the status of the word “technical”, so that when young people in particular consider a technical education, they see it as something to aspire to.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, I am sorry that this has become more complicated to involve occupational maps and routes. I thought it was a very simple explanation: that there are different emphases in different vocational routes, for the want of a better word. Actually, included in the routes there are such things as “hair and beauty”. There are technical elements to that, but there is a tremendous amount of personal skills and creativity also. Also included are “creative and design” and “catering and hospitality”. There are technical aspects in just about all of these, but that is not their prime activity or focus. The people who go into those sorts of fields are not doing so because they love doing technical things but because they like working with people and creating things, and doing things that are not primarily technical.
I am sorry if the word “technical” has now been downgraded, but we really are running rings round this. We apparently do not like and have abandoned the word “vocational” because it is considered downmarket. The word “technical” was supposed to raise the profile and be a lot better, but now, suddenly, here are the noble Lords, Lord Hunt and Lord Aberdare, saying that “technical” is a pretty rubbish word too. I always quite liked “work-based”, which is one of the terms that we used, as well as “practical”. There are other terms that might not be deemed quite so lower class as “technical”.
As I said, my amendment was intended simply to try to protect all those people working in fields where they think of themselves primarily not as technical but as creative, with personal skills and so on, which is what the Government are trying to include in the Bill. I accept that the Institute for Apprenticeships has to encompass all those routes too. I am sorry but I may have to bring this back on Report. We will perhaps have a discussion before then to see whether the noble Lord can think of a really upmarket word to take in all the different aspects of practical skills that we are looking for.
Lord Nash
I shall be delighted to have a very technical conversation with the noble Baroness about this. I heard what she said about words meaning what they mean, but I am sure that she did not quite mean what she said when she used the expression “lower class”. However, we can have a discussion about this to see whether we think that anything more needs to be done.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Baker of Dorking
“Information about technical education: access to English schools
(1) The Education Act 1997 is amended as follows.(2) After section 42A insert—“42B Information about technical education: access to English schools (1) The proprietor of a school in England within subsection (2) must ensure that there is an opportunity for a range of education and training providers to access registered pupils during the relevant phase of their education for the purpose of informing them about approved technical education qualifications or apprenticeships.(2) A school is within this subsection if it provides secondary education and is one of the following—(a) an Academy;(b) an alternative provision Academy;(c) a community, foundation or voluntary school;(d) a community or foundation special school (other than one established in a hospital);(e) a pupil referral unit.(3) The proprietor of a school in England within subsection (2) must prepare a policy statement setting out the circumstances in which education and training providers will be given access to registered pupils for the purpose of informing them about approved technical education qualifications or apprenticeships.(4) The proprietor must ensure that the policy statement is followed.(5) The policy statement must include— (a) any procedural requirements in relation to requests for access;(b) grounds for granting and refusing requests for access;(c) details of premises or facilities to be provided to a person who is given access. (6) The proprietor may revise the policy statement from time to time.(7) The proprietor must publish the policy statement and any revised statement.(8) The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision supplementing subsection (1), for example provision about who is to be given access to pupils, to which pupils they are to be given access and how and when.(9) For the purposes of this section the relevant phase of a pupil’s education is the period—(a) beginning at the same time as the school year in which the majority of pupils in the pupil’s class attain the age of 13, and(b) ending with the expiry of the school year in which the majority of pupils in the pupil’s class attain the age of 18. (10) In this section “approved technical education qualification” means a qualification approved under section A2DA of the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009.”(3) In section 42A (provision of careers guidance in schools in England), in subsection (7), omit the definition of “apprenticeship” (which has become outdated).(4) In section 45A (guidance as to discharge of duties: schools in England), in subsection (2), for “42A(1) or (4)” substitute “section 42A(1) or (4) or 42B”.(5) In section 46 (extension or modification of provisions of sections 43 to 45), in subsection (1)—(a) after “42A,” insert “42B,”;(b) after “42A(6),” insert “42B (9)”.”
Technical and Further Education Bill
Monday 27th February 2017
(7 years, 8 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Technical and Further Education Act 2017 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 88-III Third marshalled list for Grand Committee (PDF, 86KB) - (27 Feb 2017)
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Dear) (CB)
My Lords, if there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, this Committee will adjourn as soon as the Division Bells are rung and resume after 10 minutes.
Amendment 12
“International students and staff
(1) The Secretary of State has a duty to encourage international students to attend further education providers covered by this Act.(2) The Secretary of State shall ensure that no student who has received an offer to study at such a further education provider shall be treated for public policy purposes as a long term migrant to the UK, for the duration of their studies at such an establishment.(3) Persons, who are not British citizens, who receive an offer to study as a student or who receive an offer of employment as a member of academic staff at a further education provider, shall not, in respect of that course of study, or that employment, be subject to more restrictive immigration controls or conditions than were in force for a person in their position on the day on which this Act was passed.”
Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)
My Lords, it is fair to say that the question of international students is, to put it mildly, a somewhat thorny one. I do not want to draw parallels too closely with the higher education sector, but there is no reason why the further education sector should not seek to attract more students, and indeed staff, from overseas. The debates that have taken place on the Higher Education and Research Bill suggest that the Government do not fully appreciate the value to many institutions of the contributions made by students from abroad, and I am not just talking in financial terms. The financial contribution is of course important to the further education sector, but no less so is the general contribution made by the presence of students from other countries. Despite the result of the referendum, we do not—and, I would say, must not ever allow ourselves to—live in a world of our own, unwilling to acknowledge or embrace the benefits that flow from interacting with those from other countries and cultures.
There is not a consistency of view regarding the value of those benefits. The Foreign Secretary is a man with whom, I must say, I rarely see eye to eye, but I was at one with him when he said in a recent speech that overseas students should be excluded from the immigration statistics. That is certainly the position of the Labour Party, and I know that it is shared by many others across your Lordships’ House and much further afield. Of course, Mr Johnson was not espousing government policy and he was overruled by 10 Downing Street, but on this occasion certainly he was right. It is common sense to treat international students as a benefit to, and not a burden on, this country.
Amendment 12 would place the onus on the Secretary of State to encourage international students. She could of course delegate that role, and might usefully do so, to the institute. Some further education colleges already reach out and have a presence in other countries—some more successfully than others, it must be said—so this is an area in which there is surely room for expansion. It should be made widely known, particularly when government Ministers are abroad, that applications to further education colleges by young people or by those who want to teach in FE colleges would be welcomed. Students may use this provision as a means to gain the qualifications needed to enter higher education, or teaching staff may use it to broaden their expertise, but whatever the reason, as we close the doors to the European Union, we should be opening them wide to many other countries. This amendment offers a means of doing so by highlighting what further education providers have to offer internationally, and I hope that the Minister will accept it in that light.
Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)
My Lords, I support this amendment and entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Watson, on the importance of signalling to international students and staff that they are welcome. Not only are they welcome, they are invaluable in providing teaching skills that we are unable to provide from UK citizens and in bolstering student places in both quality and quantity.
Through this Bill, we would hope to send out positive messages to those from other countries that we are open for business, that we shall honour any commitments to staff or students and that we shall minimise the immigration conditions for all bona fide students and staff who wish to come to our further education colleges or providers. These measures are particularly important now in respect of EU nationals, who play such a significant part in the success of our further and higher education institutions and who are feeling particularly beleaguered and undervalued at the moment, but they are important too for the much wider international community. I hope that the Minister is able to accept this amendment.
Lord Knight of Weymouth (Lab)
My Lords, I shall speak briefly in support of this amendment. I want to remind your Lordships and the Minister that FE colleges come in a number of different guises and there are some specialist FE colleges for which this is particularly important. I am particularly a fan of the Ada Lovelace College—the newest college, I think, to be given FE status by the department—which is the National College for Digital Skills, based in Haringey. We have an acute shortage of digital skills throughout this country, including here in London, and there is a massive demand for them. If we can allow more international students to come and take advantage of studying at that college, we would do our economy and some of those young people an enormous service. I urge the Minister to listen carefully, as is his wont, and to be sympathetic to this amendment.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Lord Nash) (Con)
My Lords, the Committee will be aware that this issue is already being considered as part of the Higher Education and Research Bill. As a Government, we will want to consider our position across the board, and I can assure noble Lords that we are doing this. This topic is best discussed in the context of the Higher Education and Research Bill, where there will be ample opportunity to consider the issue during the forthcoming Report stage. However, I will briefly address the more specific points of the amendment.
While there are some further education colleges that have centres of expertise or offer higher level study that attract a significant number of international students, such as the one referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Knight, as a whole the number of international students in FE is much smaller than for the higher education sector. Courses are on average shorter, and delivery is more locally focused and reflects local economic priorities. Where colleges take significant numbers of international students, the issues will parallel those that have been considered through proposed amendments to the Higher Education and Research Bill.
I do not propose to repeat the arguments that my noble friend Lord Younger of Leckie made during that debate. I do wish to emphasise that we have and will continue to set no limit on the number of genuine international students who can come here. The controls in place are there to prevent abuse of the system and ensure that the reputation of the UK educational sector continues to be internationally renowned. The immigration statistics are controlled independently by the Office for National Statistics. It is not up to the Government to create the statistical definitions. Our responsibility is to set the policy, which in this case places no limit on numbers of students.
As I have said, there will be an opportunity to debate these issues further as part of the Higher Education and Research Bill, which is the more appropriate forum. In those circumstances, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw the amendment.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
I thank the two noble Lords who contributed to the debate and the Minister for his response. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, about the positive message that this sends. That is what I was trying to get across in moving this amendment.
Equally, I accept the Minister’s use of the term “abuse of the system”. No one would be tolerant of that at all. There were such situations in the past in the case particularly of language schools. Some of them had been—to use about the kindest adjective that could be applied to them—“bogus”. Very largely, these have been driven out of the system. I would not say that there is no abuse, but there is not a great deal. Opening up the further education sector does not necessarily increase the likelihood of such abuse.
I take the Minister’s point that the Higher Education and Research Bill is the place to deal with that. Fortunately for him, he will not have to do that, but I will be returning to these subjects next week. I wanted to draw attention to the fact that, hopefully, the further education sector has the opportunity to broaden its scope a bit. Whereas local provision is what it is mainly about, there is scope to expand that and I hope that the sector will take the opportunity to do so and will not be prevented from doing so through the inability to bring students in from abroad.
With those remarks, I beg leave to withdraw this amendment.
“Apprentices as qualifying young persons for the purposes of child benefit
(1) The Child Benefit (General) Regulations 2006 are amended as follows.(2) In Regulation 3 (education and training condition)—(a) after paragraph (2)(a) insert—“(aa) is undertaking a statutory apprenticeship as defined under section A11 of the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009 (only statutory apprenticeships to be described as apprenticeships);”;(b) in paragraph (4) after “(2)(a)” insert “, (2)(aa),”.”
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
My Lords, this proposed new clause may not at first sight seem as if it is appropriate for this Bill or for the scope of the Department for Education. I would concede the second point, but not the first, and I hope that I can demonstrate that that is not a contradiction in terms. The new clause would enable families eligible for child benefit to receive that benefit for children aged under 20 who are undertaking apprenticeships.
The landscape of apprenticeships is changing, and from April the introduction of the levy will mean a greater focus on giving young people key skills and up-skilling current employees. Apprenticeships are receiving greater support from government than for generations, and the numbers of young people starting them are increasing exponentially. So it felt odd to read in a survey that more than 90% of 18 to 24 year- olds were not interested in starting an apprenticeship. It seems that apprenticeships still have a significant image problem. The survey results showed that not just young people but two-thirds of people aged over 55 thought that going to university would always be a much better career option. The biggest reason for this was said to be poor careers advice being given at school.
That is not the only reason why young people may be discouraged. In some cases, their parents may actually prevent them taking up apprenticeships because of the economic consequences. In one sense at least, apprentices are treated as second-class citizens, with those from the most disadvantaged backgrounds being denied thousands of pounds of financial support that is available for college and university students, according to a survey carried out by the National Union of Students. The research, which that body carried out in conjunction with the Times Educational Supplement, revealed that apprentices are also excluded from a number of means of support available to their counterparts in further education institutions.
In April, the apprentice national minimum wage will increase by a whopping 10%—I am sorry, I wish it were by that, but it is by 10p to £3.50 an hour. A college student with one child could be eligible for more than £10,000 a year in financial support and their families could receive thousands more. Apprentices, including those on the minimum wage earning as little as £7,000 a year, are not entitled to any of this. As well as being ineligible for Care to Learn childcare grants—again, unlike further education students— some apprentices also miss out on travel discounts, council tax exemptions and student bank account packages.
The reason is that apprenticeships are not classed as approved education or training by the Department for Work and Pensions. This means that, in the case of apprentices who live with their parents, their families could lose out by more than £1,000 a year in child benefit. Families receiving universal credit could lose more than £3,200 a year. Why should families suffer as we seek to train the young people desperately needed to fill the skill gaps in the economy? University students receive assistance from a range of sources, from accessing finance to discounted rates on council tax. Apprentices currently receive none of these benefits. The system must be changed so that both are treated equally and there is genuine parity of esteem between students and apprentices.
A large number of examples of apprentices being unable either to take up their apprenticeship or to complete it have been reported by further education colleges to the Association of Colleges. I would like to highlight one case involving a young man aged 16 at the time, who was enrolled in a full-time carpentry and joinery programme at New College Durham. He came from a disadvantaged area within County Durham, where he lived with his mother, a single parent, and his half-sister. From the outset of the programme, he made it clear that he was very keen to transfer to an apprenticeship and enquired weekly at the apprenticeship office about possible vacancies. Within a matter of weeks, he was offered a work trial with one of the employers with whom the college worked. The employer told the college that he was pleased with the commitment and work ethic demonstrated by the young man and offered him an apprenticeship, which was enthusiastically accepted. Soon after starting it, though, the college received a phone call from the employer saying that he would not continue to employ the young man, as his mother had been in contact to say that she would lose her housing benefit due to her son being classified as employed. Despite his disappointment, the young man continued on the full-time programme and completed his level 1 diploma but, understandably, the employer was disgruntled due to the wasted time and effort and stipulated that he would not again interview a potential apprentice from a welfare-dependent background. That really is a sad story.
We need to bear in mind such situations when we think about the extension of apprenticeships. Barriers surely should not be put in the way of young people who genuinely want to start an apprenticeship and see it through, better themselves and help the economy in broader terms. As the National Society of Apprentices said in its submission to the Public Bill Committee in another place, “It seems inconsistent—to put it mildly—
“that apprentices are continually excluded from definitions of ‘approved’ learners, when apprenticeships are increasingly assuming their place in the government’s holistic view of education and skills (which this Bill itself represents through unifying apprenticeships with technical education)”.
To repeat, there should be genuine parity between all educational and apprenticeship routes.
The risk of losing out financially can and does deter some of the most disadvantaged young people from becoming apprentices. The Government need to act to close this loophole and, although I accept that it is not within the Minister’s gift to do so, I suggest that he might at least signify his understanding of the position in which some apprentices find themselves—many of them from the kind of backgrounds where we are trying to attract more apprentices than is currently the case. That would help to reach the Government’s target of 3 million apprentices by 2020 and to ensure that every young person attracted to starting an apprenticeship was not prevented from doing so for financial reasons. I beg to move.
Baroness Cohen of Pimlico (Lab)
My Lords, I know personally several young people who will probably have to pursue a course much less suited to them than an apprenticeship because their welfare-dependent families will otherwise lose too much in benefit. That seems wrong. The Bill is surely not entirely about getting us a skilled workforce; it also has a social purpose—rescuing children from unsuitable parts of the education system, places where they will never learn what they need, when they really need to be in a decent apprenticeship. Finance must not stand in the way, but stand in the way it will—nobody wants their mother to lose housing benefit—unless we can find a way around this issue, which I suggest is by treating people in apprenticeships as if they were in further education.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, I wholly support what the noble Lord, Lord Watson, said, while equally recognising that benefits are not directly a matter for the Department for Education.
There are anomalies in the way in which we treat young people. For those in approved education or approved training, child benefit continues until the child 20 years-old. Reading the list of what counts as that, it seems even more incongruous that apprenticeships are not included. For instance, it includes A-levels, Scottish Highers, NVQs up to level 3—which, of course, can be closely linked to apprenticeships—a place on the access to apprenticeships scheme, foundation apprenticeships for traineeships in Wales, the Employability Fund programmes and places on Training for Success. There is a whole raft of education and training courses on which young people continue to get their benefits, but they lose them for apprenticeships.
We know that only 10% of apprenticeships are taken up by young people on free school meals, which is surely an indicator that that is a disincentive, particularly for families, because they will lose out on additional benefits when a child goes into an apprenticeship. An apprenticeship salary on minimum wage may be barely over £3 an hour, so the loss of child benefit and tax credits may be a significant penalty for that family to bear.
The National Union of Students said:
“If apprenticeships are going to be the silver bullet to create a high-skilled economy for the future, the government has to go further than rhetoric and genuinely support apprentices financially to succeed”.
We urge the Minister, in the interests of joined-up government, to talk to his colleagues in the benefits department to see whether something can be done to ensure that disadvantaged young people do not feel that this is a major disincentive to taking up apprenticeships.
Lord Storey (LD)
My Lords, I spoke on this issue at Second Reading, so I just reiterate what my colleagues have said. It seems strange that benefits are available to young people until the age of 18, so we can have a university student who has a couple of lectures and a couple of tutorials a week, if they are lucky, who gets the benefit, and a young person doing an apprenticeship, where 20% of the time should be for training, who loses that money. As we heard from my noble friend Lady Garden, only 10%—let us underline that—of apprentices come from those entitled to free school meals. If we really believe in social mobility, we should be asking why it is only 10% and whether finance is a handicap.
The National Society of Apprentices said in its written evidence:
“It seems incongruous to us that structural barriers exist to disincentivise the most disadvantaged from taking up an apprenticeship”.
We need to take those comments on board. I realise this is slightly beyond the scope of the Bill, but it would be helpful if, in his reply, the Minister could suggest that we meet his colleagues outside the Committee and talk about this issue because if there is a resolution, it would really help those people in society whom we must support.
Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)
My Lords, I support all the points that have been made. I shall speak on one narrow issue. I was surprised to learn that an apprenticeship is not an approved form of learning. I assume that, when the Institute for Apprenticeships recognises these apprenticeships, they will automatically be an approved form of learning along with all the others. I hope that when the Minister replies, he will cover whether an apprenticeship is an approved form of learning and whether, when the Institute for Apprenticeships recognises the range of apprenticeships, they will come into that category.
Lord Blunkett (Lab)
My Lords, I support the amendment. It would be very useful if the Minister were prepared to meet separately with my colleagues to see whether a solution could be found. I want to reinforce a point about the challenge of transport costs for apprentices. They can be extremely irksome and difficult for them. The proportion of a very small income going on getting to and from work can be way beyond anything that we, as adults, have experienced.
Baroness Wolf of Dulwich (CB)
I, too, support the amendment. Like other noble Lords, I recognise that this is not something that is easily in the Minister’s gift, but it is a major issue and has been for some time.
Apprentices are employees and they should be employees, so they are different from full-time students, but it is also important to recognise that they are not skilled workers, which is why they are apprentices. That is why it is also important that there is an apprenticeship wage, but that apprenticeship wage is very low. This is a major issue and has been a major issue for a while, but, curiously enough, the improvement in the quality of vocational training and the drive to improve vocational training and to make sure that young people go into apprenticeships rather than into some form of quasi, not-real apprenticeship has made the problem worse, because more parents are now faced with the situation in which they tell their children, “I can’t afford for you to take the apprenticeship”.
This is a major issue, and it cannot be beyond our capacity to do something about it. I add my voice to those urging the Minister to see what can be done to prevent young people from the most deprived families feeling that there is a serious barrier to them taking up an apprenticeship.
Baroness Donaghy (Lab)
My Lords, I shall make one additional point in support of the amendment. I was one of the founding members of the Low Pay Commission. When it was first established, its job was to create the infrastructure around not just the minimum wage but the wage for apprentices and how that would play out in the world of employment. It was 19 years ago that we first grappled with these issues, so the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, is quite right that this has been a problem for quite some time. It is a structural issue.
I know that the Minister is very good at leaping over barriers to try to solve problems. I know it is not easy, but he can see the broader pictures and can try to bang heads together on an issue which will not go away unless something positive is done.
I fully endorse what my noble friend Lord Blunkett said. The Low Pay Commission had to agree to a very low wage not only to get a unanimous report but because we were pioneering and wanted to be absolutely sure that we were not going to damage the economy. When we look at that low wage, as it still is, and the transport implications, to be honest it is a miracle that anybody whose family receives benefits goes in for an apprenticeship at all. Far from being the group that needs the least motivation—we are trying to tackle the fact that the education system is failing that group at the moment—these people require the most motivation to keep going.
This is a plea for the Minister to do his Superman act—he is about to take his jacket off, so I am feeling much more optimistic—and try to find ways of breaking down barriers and breaking through this structural anomaly, which we all want to do.
Baroness Buscombe (Con)
My Lords, I am sorry to disappoint, but Superman is not responding to this amendment, and I am certainly no Superwoman.
We welcome the sentiment behind Amendment 12A tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Watson and Lord Hunt, that young people should not feel financially disadvantaged by taking up an apprenticeship. However, I hope I will be able to persuade noble Lords who have taken part in this debate that sufficient safeguards are in place to support this aim. In saying that, the amendment focuses on child benefit rather than the broader issue of all other benefits, which are not part of this Bill. Therefore, it is very difficult to widen my response in that regard, but let us see what we can do.
One of the core principles of an apprenticeship is that it is a genuine job and is treated accordingly in the benefits system. A young person on an apprenticeship will receive at least the national minimum wage, which is now £3.40 per hour for apprentices following a 3% increase in October 2016. Of course, these figures do not remain static—indeed, I am moving a Motion on an SI tomorrow on upgrading the figures—and most employers pay more than the minimum. The 2016 apprenticeship pay survey estimates that the average gross hourly pay received by apprentices in England was £6.70 per hour for level 2 and 3 apprentices.
The purpose of child benefit is to support parents financially with the extra costs of raising a child—for example, with the cost of food, clothing and other necessities. If a young person is undertaking an apprenticeship, or is in training or education by virtue of a contract of employment, their parents are no longer eligible for child benefit for supporting that young person. However, parents can still receive child benefit for other children and qualifying young persons in their family.
An apprentice has to work only 6.1 hours—less than one full day’s work—on the minimum wage to earn the equivalent of the weekly child benefit amount for the eldest or only child, or four hours to earn the equivalent of the second and subsequent children’s amount. In that sense, there is more than a catch-up there. So I hope I have provided sufficient reassurance that the wages from an apprenticeship, even if paid at the apprenticeship minimum wage, will more than offset any household income reductions through the loss of child benefit.
Noble Lords talked also about the loss or reduction in housing benefit, credits and so on. As I said at the beginning, that is not within the scope of this Bill. Noble Lords have said they would like an opportunity to talk to my noble friend the Minister about this issue before Report. My noble friend is very happy to meet, but it is not within our gift to make a difference on this. The point has certainly been well put by noble Lords, but within the confines of this Bill it is very difficult to look beyond what we are already able to do for apprentices.
I hope that, on that basis, the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Baroness Cohen of Pimlico
Is there not a fairly simple way of bringing this within the scope of the Bill, as was suggested by my noble friend Lord Young? All you have to do is get the new Institute for Apprenticeships to design apprenticeships that count as further education, attract child benefit and do not interfere with benefits in the same way as a child in normal sixth-form education would? Is that not the short way home? I wonder what my noble friend Lord Young thinks.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I was going to ask the Minister to address that point. If the apprenticeship is approved by the Institute for Apprenticeships, is it an approved form of learning? The apprentices are in training for the most part. They are released at least one day a week. I would welcome some guidance on that.
Baroness Buscombe
The difficulty is that the institute cannot change the definition of an apprenticeship. However, my noble friend will meet with noble Lords who would like to discuss this issue further following Committee.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
If the institute cannot change the definition of an apprenticeship, who can?
Baroness Buscombe
My Lords, the difficulty is that the definition of a job is a question for Parliament.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
I thank the Minister for her response and all colleagues who have spoken in the debate. I particularly welcome the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, and the noble Lord, Lord Storey. One of them mentioned social mobility, which is an important point. It is within the scope of the Government’s overall objective to increase social mobility; it is mentioned often enough. I do not see how it can be outwith the scope of the Bill, as the Minister said, because we are able to discuss it today.
There is no point in repeating a lot of the points that have been made, but I certainly take the issue about an approved form of learning, which my noble friend Lord Young mentioned; it needs to be clarified. Will the Minister write to noble Lords on that point?
The noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, perhaps did not fully hear my noble friend Lord Blunkett when he asked whether we could meet with the Minister separately to discuss the issue. It was not just with the Minister but with his opposite number in the Department for Work and Pensions as well to see what might be achieved on this. I accept the Minister said that more or less nothing could be achieved, but we are going to meet, so let us broaden the meeting so that we have somebody who has experience of those matters and we can go into them in greater detail.
My noble friend Lady Donaghy has a great deal of experience in these matters, as noble Lords will know. However, I am not sure that her metaphors stand close scrutiny of the very urbane Minister—leaping over barriers and banging heads together is not quite his modus operandi, and I will not go anywhere near the Superman reference. However, I think the Minister can at least open up channels for discussion on this. We would certainly need to have those discussions before Report.
At this stage, it is our intention to return to the matter because, at the end of the day, we want to increase the number of apprenticeships from all backgrounds. We need to increase the overall number, but many are being put off for reasons that will not be assuaged by the figures quoted by the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, and we have to find a way round this. With those comments, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
“( ) After subsection (5) insert—“(5A) In the exercising of its functions, the Institute must cooperate with—(a) Ofqual,(b) Ofsted,(c) The Office for Students,(d) The Skills Funding Agency, andany other body identified by the Secretary of State as having an interest in the delivery or monitoring of apprenticeships.””
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, at the heart of many of our debates so far there has been a desire to ensure that there is clear accountability for ensuring that at the end of the day we see the development of high-quality apprenticeships. Given the number of bodies involved and the complexity of the organisation and regulation of apprenticeships and technical education, I do not think there is any surprise that we see some ambiguity around this area. The question raised just now by the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, about the definition of an apprenticeship and how to change it showed some of the complexities that we are struggling with.
The Minister very kindly sent us a chart showing where current responsibilities lie. In summary, they seem to be as follows. The Education Funding Agency funds provision for pre-19 students. The Skills Funding Agency funds provision for students over 19, plus apprenticeships, and operates the apprenticeship service. Ofqual regulates the qualification and awarding bodies, including certain apprenticeships. The Institute for Apprenticeships determines the scope of technical education, sets the criteria and awards licences for the delivery of technical education qualifications; it approves and reviews standards and ensures they are upheld through contractual arrangements. Then there is Ofsted, which inspects the quality of training for level 2 and 3 apprenticeships. The information from the Minister is that HEFCE’s role in relation to levels 4 and 5 is still to be determined.
On any reading, that is a pretty complex picture. Is any one of those organisations responsible, in the end, for high-quality apprenticeships? Which of those bodies does the Minister hold ultimately accountable? For instance, which would be called in by the Education Select Committee, or, as I suspect, would they all be because no one is actually going to take ultimate responsibility?
What about the actions of employers? We know that some apprenticeships fail because of a lack of commitment from employers. My noble friend Lady Cohen described this very eloquently on our first day in Committee. What enforcement powers can be taken against employers who, for instance, undermine the apprenticeship schemes which their employees are on, for one reason or another? Ultimately, if the institute is the nearest we have got to an oversight body, does it have enough clout to ensure that it can influence all the other agencies involved? If the answer to the question is Ministers, what mechanisms do they have to give strategic direction and oversight? My noble friend doubted whether the noble Lord liked to bang heads together. I assume he does like to, but can he and how is it going to be done?
The amendment is a modest but, I hope, useful contribution to this. I have borrowed the concept from health legislation, where we are used to having a number of national bodies—either quangos, quasi-independent or to a certain extent independent—which are under a statutory duty to co-operate with each other. It might be useful to have a similar concept in relation to apprenticeships and technical education, given the diffusion of responsibility among many different organisations. The amendment is modest, but behind it lies the plea that, in the end, there is some organisation that can clearly be held to account for the quality of apprenticeships in future. At the moment, I have some doubts as to whether we can actually do that. I beg to move.
Lord Lucas (Con)
My Lords, I have a couple of questions to add to those of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. It is important that a single organisation should keep a list of approved qualifications. At present, it is unclear whether this is going to be IFATE or Ofqual. I hope the Committee can have an answer to that. Secondly, I am unclear how far IFATE’s remit goes into the world of commercial qualifications: the sort of things where a commercial training provider will persuade an industry that this is a particular bit of training they should have for their staff; it has some sort of qualification name attached to it but is completely outside the government-funded system. Will IFATE have any influence in this area, or is it entirely outside its remit?
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, I will focus on just one area because, as I understand it, the various bodies set out in the amendment each have a different role. When we debated this on the first day in Committee, the Minister told us that the body that was going to look at the quality of apprenticeships was Ofsted and that it was going to work on a risk-based approach. I told him that I understood the approach but would welcome some clarification of how it is going to apply. He said that he would get back to us on that. As far as I am concerned, there are two things here. I support the thrust of the amendment, in that we need to be clear about the roles and responsibilities, but my overall concern is ensuring that we deliver quality apprenticeships so that the brand has a good reputation among teachers, potential apprentices and parents. If the Minister has replied to this point, I have not yet seen it. Is he in a position to tell us how this risk-based approach will apply to apprenticeships?
Given that we are looking to drive up the number of SMEs involved, the risk will not be with the larger organisations with well-established reputations, such as Rolls-Royce, BT, British Aerospace and a whole host of others that have been mentioned before. We know that people who go into those organisations will get a quality apprenticeship. That is not the problem. The problem will be in small and medium-sized concerns. Given that the success of this enterprise in driving up significantly the number of apprenticeships will depend on ensuring that we embrace more of those organisations in providing apprenticeships, a lot more than currently do, this is not an insignificant issue.
Lord Storey
My Lords, this is a very important amendment. The Government have set an ambitious target of 3 million apprentices, and it is good to have a target to work towards. However, as we have just heard from the noble Lord, Lord Young, those have to be quality apprenticeships. In a sense, I would rather have 2.5 million apprentices, knowing that there was real quality in the education and training.
I went to look at the apprenticeship scheme run by the BBC. I was struck by the diversity of the apprentices and the quality of the training and education component of the scheme. Young people deserve quality education and training. It is not enough to say, “Here are some books—go and sit in that corner. Here is a day off—go and learn that”. Somebody has to direct the training and education. If a scheme is to work, we need to make sure that somebody is responsible for that quality.
I hope the Minister will not mind me saying that, when we met before the Bill, I raised this question with him. He said then that Ofsted would be “sampling” some of the providers. To me, that is not good enough. We have to be absolutely sure that every apprentice gets only the best.
Baroness Cohen of Pimlico
I support the amendment. I feel that, in all this, there is tension between what the Bill would like to see and what the Bill will be able to achieve. I keep looking for measures of enforcement, and not just because I am a native head girl or predisposed to police-type solutions. The history of apprenticeships in this country shows that they have mostly failed because of the employers. Indeed, why would it not be because of the employers? They are in charge; they are the ones with the power.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Lord Nash) (Con)
I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Watson of Invergowrie and Lord Hunt, for this amendment. I could not help but notice that the moment the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, made the very inappropriate comparison with Superman that I appeared, according to the annunciator anyway, to be in two places at once, as was pointed out to me by the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie. I am not sure that even Superman managed that, but at least I am back now.
It is essential that all the public organisations that have a role in the delivery of apprenticeships and technical education, as elucidated by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, work together to ensure a coherent system which delivers a high-quality result.
The noble Lord asked the perfectly fair question, “Who is in charge?”. The Government will work to ensure that the system works and will keep this under review via the accountability statement, which we will share with noble Lords.
The noble Lord asked what the Minister’s role in this was. I guess, if the system does not work, Ministers will intervene to change the system, but individual bodies are responsible for their individual part of the system. The strategic guidance document will ask the institute to carry out a leadership role—a co-ordination role—across the system.
In response to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Storey, on quality versus quantity, I repeat a point I made on the first day of Committee that our target is 3 million. We believe it is a realistic target, but quality must come first.
Paragraph 10(1)(b) of Schedule A1 to the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009, which will be inserted into that Act by the Enterprise Act 2016, will allow the Institute for Apprenticeships to co-operate with any organisation that it deems necessary for it to carry out its specific functions. It is therefore unnecessary to include the requirement in the Bill.
The Bill includes a data-sharing provision to allow the named organisations freely to share data and information between them, to ensure that they can all deliver their functions properly. This, in addition to the legislation referred to above, is all that is needed in primary legislation to allow those bodies to work together.
In addition, the amendment would require the institute to co-operate with the named organisations but, without a similar requirement on them in return, the effect would be unbalanced. However, that is not my main point.
It is in the interests of all of the organisations named in this amendment to work well together to enable them to fulfil their statutory duties. Past experience demonstrates such a willingness. As the legislation will permit this, we see no need for a further requirement. In preparation for the launch of the institute in April this year, these organisations and others are working together to agree an accountability statement which sets out each of their separate roles and responsibilities in relation to apprenticeships. There is a very positive working relationship between them and a palpable desire to ensure the institute is a real success.
In answer to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, about how Ofsted will carry out its risk assessment approach, I am meeting Ofsted later this week and will discuss this with it in some detail and write to the noble Lord and copy my letter to other interested Peers. I hope that the noble Lord will feel reassured enough by what I have said to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. We always thought that he had super powers and are glad to have confirmation of it. This debate has been helpful.
The Minister has promised an accountability statement and it would be helpful to have that before Report. He said that Ministers will intervene and, importantly, that the institute will have a leadership and co-ordinating role. One question is whether it would be helpful to have that backed up by some legislative provision to reinforce it, which is perhaps something that we can come back to.
On the question of the 3 million and quality, I hear what the Minister says. I take his point that 3 million is deliverable but that quality comes first. The question I would like to ask him is whether the Treasury and No. 10 Downing Street share that view. My experience is that, when push comes to shove, the key indicator on which his department will be held accountable will be the 3 million, rather than the quality indicator. Essentially, we are trying to give some cover to the Government to say that at the bottom line quality is more important than the numbers.
I take the point about the drafting of the amendment —that the duty should have been reciprocal—and we can probably come back to it, but this has been a very helpful short debate. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
“( ) After subsection (6), insert—“(6A) In performing its functions, the Institute must make provision to ensure that those undertaking education, training or apprenticeships as specified within subsection (6) have representation within its structures, which may include but shall not be limited to establishing—(a) a panel of persons undertaking approved English apprenticeships to inform and advise the Board of the Institute; and(b) a panel of persons undertaking study towards approved technical education qualifications to inform and advise the Board of the Institute.””
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 16 and 18, which deal with the issue of representation within the structures of the institute.
Apprentices should be able to influence the way in which their training is developed and delivered. From the front line, they know what has been and is being helpful to and successful for them and, equally importantly, what is not. I hope that the Minister, who has been clear in his support of apprenticeships and apprentices, appreciates that point. The National Society of Apprentices has said:
“At the moment, apprentices have no real opportunities to improve their education. Although most students going through the ‘traditional’ education system at college or university are able to give feedback through their class representative system, similar structures do not exist for apprentices”.
I might add that students can also give feedback through the National Student Survey.
The panels that we know are to be established for apprentices and technical education students were the subject of considerable debate in another place, in the Public Bill Committee. The Minister of State for Skills, Mr Halfon, was clear that he was in favour of them. He gave assurances related to them and the assurances were taken on board. As things stand, they will not be enshrined in the legislation.
We believe that to ensure that a future Secretary of State or Government less welcoming to the needs of those groups of young people cannot sweep away their right to a channel of communication, which is what it is, rather than representation, they are entitled to representation in some form. The rationale behind this amendment, at its most basic, is that it is better to have and not need than to need and not have. The concerns of those directly involved should have a means of being conveyed. At the moment, other than those panels—and we do not know how and when they will be established—nothing else is on offer.
Amendment 18 concerns the need to have a wide range of types of employer involved in setting the standards for the 15 occupation routes. The fear is that, because only employers with a wage bill in excess of £3 million will pay the apprenticeship levy, they will be the most prominent employers involved. Certainly, they will be spread across the sectors and the 15 occupations. That is self-evident. The question is what types of employer—not just the largest—there will be.
What about small and medium-size enterprises? They are very prominent in providing apprenticeships. Many of them feel that they have been marginalised in the current drive towards expansion. Whether that is the case, that is how many view recent developments. Whether the Government achieve their target of 3 million apprenticeship starts will ultimately depend on how many SMEs contribute to meeting that target. They are a vital part of the economy and should not be undervalued by government. If their needs are not factored in and they feel their voice is not being heard in the corridors of power, particularly when standards are being prepared, we can legitimately ask how they can be expected to play their part in this brave new world with enthusiasm. We might also say that of our other major employers—local authorities, for instance. They will be playing a significant role, I hope, in this, and they have to be borne in mind. It is about widening the base of employers involved in setting standards.
Referring to the Government’s proposals for reform of the sector, in giving evidence to the Public Bill Committee, the Association of Employment and Learning Providers stated:
“Reform proposals may not currently be giving sufficient weight to the input of stakeholders and the concerns of and about learners, which must be rectified by the inclusion of stakeholder representatives on the Board of the Institute”.
I am never quite comfortable with the word “stakeholder”, but I get the point that the association is trying to make.
I therefore supported in principle the amendment similar to this amendment that was submitted by the Opposition in another place. The arguments made then stand now, because although we are not advocating a place on the board of the institute—we would, if we thought it was achievable—we are seeking that a duty be placed on the institute to allow representation within its structures for those directly involved in delivering apprenticeships and technical education. If the institute’s foundations would be shaken by such representation, the foundations are by no means sufficiently robust. I beg to move.
Lord Knight of Weymouth
This is an important amendment. I very much enjoyed the exchange at Oral Questions today in which the noble Lord, Lord Prior, responded for the Government on the importance of employee engagement. I felt he really understands how important it is in the private sector and, in some ways most surprisingly, in the public sector, particularly from his comments about junior doctors. In that spirit, obviously I hope that apprentices—who, as we have discussed this afternoon, are employees—will enjoy employee engagement with their employers, even though they are apprentices. It is equally important that the institute feels that it is accountable to learners and that the accountability of the institute is not more upwards to the Government than it is to employers and learners.
As I said last week in this Committee, I have general concerns that the dynamic, rapidly changing nature of the labour market presents ongoing challenges to the institute. I was set a challenge by my noble friend Lord Hunt to come up with a solution to some of that before Report. I have been mulling on that and may have at least the beginnings of a solution, but I shall wait to surprise the Minister with it at some future date. The point remains that, if the institute does not have within its structure a way of listening acutely to the learner experience, of assessing the relevance of the qualification in the labour market for learners not only while they are going through their apprenticeship but in the months immediately after they have completed it, and of being accountable to employers of all sizes, as my noble friend pointed out, I worry that our efforts in this Committee to try to help and advise the Government in making the institute a success will be in vain because it will too quickly become out of touch and out of date.
Baroness Wolf of Dulwich
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 36A, which is in my name and has been placed in this group. It is also about accountability, but a rather broader form of accountability which links the Government, who are encouraging young people and adults to enter training, and the changing environment, which means that many of them are put at risk in a way that was never the case before.
The amendment relates to Clause 13 and asks that any,
“training provider offering publicly funded apprenticeship training or offering publicly funded education training for students aged 18 or over”,
should be included in the requirements of that clause—in fact, what I would like to see is that extended through the whole chapter.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, I support the principle of Amendment 16. It is right and important that the institute should have regular input from those actually undertaking apprenticeships and technical education. That will be essential if they are to have a state of awareness about what is actually happening.
I also support the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, in relation to training providers. Whether or not they are involved with student loans, they will still be involved in providing apprenticeships and, allegedly, in ensuring that those young people whom they recommend to employers are in a state of preparedness to undertake those apprenticeships.
My recent experience of one provider, which I will not name, leaves me with a great deal of doubt because the not-so-young person concerned—I think this one may have been 22 years old—arrived with little or no understanding of what was required of her when undertaking an interview. She arrived without us being supplied with any CV. We decided to stick with this organisation to see whether it had improved the next time we used it, after it promised us that that was an oversight—and the next time it still did not provide a CV until, on the morning of the interview with the next potential apprentice, it emailed one to us.
The noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, is quite right to bring it to our attention that a significant amount of government money goes into these organisations and they ought to come under scrutiny. I was assuming that Ofsted has some sort of role in scrutinising training providers, but it was probably an unwarranted assumption on my part. When the Minister replies, it would be welcome if he covered this point.
Baroness Cohen of Pimlico
I too support the amendment, although I think I may have got out of my depth with training providers. I should remind the Committee that I am involved with the BPP group and that we not only have a university but are training a lot of 16 to 19 year-olds. However, we are not providing all the training. If an employer comes to us and says, “Will you train our apprentices?”, then we do that. That is not the same as training apprentices to be interviewed; they have already been interviewed and are the employer’s pigeon. Indeed, I had barely heard of these training providers who are leaving people in a mess.
However, this inclines me the more to support the amendment because there is very little in the Bill about who students should complain to. Hopelessly, I asked my son, who lives in Germany and is a veteran of German apprenticeships, who German apprentices complain to. The question meant absolutely nothing to him because they do not do that. Apprenticeships work there because they have worked for 20 years, and I think you would be drummed out of the local CBI, or hung or something, if you abused your apprentice in any way. I am not thinking of physical abuse but of people being given a broom or a photocopying machine rather than proper training.
I do not know, and do not think that the Bill says, to whom the learner or student may complain if the employer is not doing its bit. I think they know to whom they can complain if the trainer is not doing its bit—they can complain to us, for a start—and we know that structure. However, we do not know the structure for what to do if an employer is looking after an apprentice very badly and not offering proper training. I do not think that this amendment totally resolves that. Input from students would be very useful but, again—and I feel as if I am banging on a bit—enforcement will matter in this area. Can the Minister tell me what that will be?
Lord Aberdare (CB)
My Lords, I want to make a couple of points on these amendments. First, as I said at Second Reading, I very much welcome the desire and requirement to have learners themselves represented in the governance of the institute. I welcome also the fact that the Government have announced an apprentice panel for the institute, but I think it would be good if that was a statutory requirement in the Bill.
Secondly, it is important we ensure that the bodies creating the standards are employer-led but, at the same time, represent a cross-section of organisations. However, there is a further point to make on that. Yes, we should have SME representation, but that is easier said than done. Most SMEs find it hard to devote the time, resource and energy to being involved in these quite complicated standard development processes. I am very interested to hear the Government’s thinking on how the views of SMEs—which, after all, deliver more than half of all apprenticeships—can be represented in a way that is comparable to the others that will be represented.
I very much agree that independent training providers need to be subject to accountability and scrutiny, and that learners need to know who they can complain to. However, at the same time, I believe that independent training providers deliver a very substantial proportion of the training needed for apprenticeships, and we should be rather careful that we are not killing that golden-egg-laying goose. It is very important to have the right balance. Again as I said at Second Reading, I have a feeling that the role of independent training providers, including commercial training providers, is not very well reflected in the Bill as it stands. It is a key role and we should make sure we understand how it is going to be delivered in a way that meets suitable standards and scrutiny.
Lord Storey
My Lords, I support the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf. FE Week seems to be getting quite a few mentions. I came across a piece on training providers by Peter Cobrin, who runs the Apprenticeships England Community Interest Company, which is important to highlight. He says that training providers feel,
“vulnerable, unrepresented, unsupported, unprotected, exploited and undervalued”.
Let us not forget that there are some very good training providers, just as in higher education there are some very good private providers and colleges. However, quite frankly, some need examining carefully. As the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, said, it is important to remember that many of the people who go to these private providers take out big loans, and if that private provider collapses or reforms, they are left. That is not good enough. The noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, said it is important that accountability catches up with them. I hope that, following her wise words, we might look more carefully at this area between now and Report.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, I support these amendments and the views of the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf. Equally, I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, and my noble friend Lord Storey say about getting the balance of this right. That is important.
I have one small thing to say on Amendment 18. I agree that it is almost impossible to get SMEs to participate meaningfully in these sorts of activities, however much you wish them to do so. The federation can sometimes be helpful in providing for somebody to speak, but individual SMEs very seldom have the time or interest to take part. In Amendment 18, proposed new paragraph (b) refers to, as well as employers,
“at least one person engaged in delivering relevant education linked to the standard being assessed”.
It is important that this group of people includes trainers and awarding bodies, who bring a dimension to these affairs. To have a broad range of people within this group would be particularly important.
Lord Nash
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Watson and Lord Hunt, for their two amendments relating to issues of representation for the Institute for Apprenticeships.
With regard to Amendment 16, the institute should obviously understand the views of those people undertaking this training to ensure that it is meeting their needs, because it is the organisation responsible for apprenticeships and technical education. Section ZA2 of the 2009 Act, inserted by the Enterprise Act 2016, already requires the institute to have regard to,
“the reasonable requirements of persons who may wish to undertake education and training within”,
the institute’s remit, and to other interested persons. The institute is also required to engage interested groups as part of the review of standards and assessment plans.
The institute has purposely been established as an independent organisation, with high-level responsibilities set out in legislation but with the freedom to decide how it delivers them. It is essential for the credibility of apprenticeships and the wider apprenticeship reform programme that the institute retains as much autonomy as possible. Government can provide the institute with advice and guidance about how it could carry out its functions. It has to have regard to this advice and must provide justification if it chooses not to follow it. The Government recently consulted on a draft of their guidance to the institute for 2017-18, which includes a request for the institute to establish an apprenticeship panel to advise the board. The shadow institute has already committed to doing this by the time that it is launched and good progress is being made. Members for the first apprenticeship panel have already been shortlisted and an initial meeting is planned for March.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
On that point, can the Minister say how this was done? Were applications invited?
Lord Nash
I will have to write to the noble Lord about that.
As well as advising the board, the first panel will decide how the panel will be run, including how future members will be recruited. The proposal is for the institute to take on responsibility for technical education from April 2018. I can confirm that it would be our intention to include a request in its guidance for 2018-19 for a panel to represent those undertaking technical education.
Amendment 18 would stipulate the make-up of the group of persons whom the institute could approve to develop a standard. In particular, it would require that the group includes a range of employers and at least one provider. I agree that it is essential that the standards that form the basis of reformed apprenticeships and new technical education qualifications are of high quality, and meet the needs of a wide range of employers and learners, but I am not convinced that this amendment is necessary. I have already explained that the institute needs to be independent from government to be able to undertake its functions with credibility. It will be well placed to make decisions about who can develop a new standard, based on a range of factors, and it is right that it should be given the flexibility to do so without the constraints that this amendment would impose.
However, in my remarks on the preceding amendment I referred to the strategic guidance providing a vehicle for government to advise the institute. The current draft of the guidance includes the recommendation on who should be able to develop standards and makes it clear that we will expect the institute to continue to ensure that standards are developed primarily by employers, but with input from others with the relevant knowledge and experience, such as professional bodies, other sector experts, providers and assessment organisations. If the institute decides not to follow the government guidance it must give reasons in its annual report, but it is crucial that, as an expert, independent organisation, it retains the ability to make decisions itself about delivery, taking into account all the relevant circumstances. We believe that our approach strikes the right balance. I hope that, on the basis of my explanation, the noble Lord will feel reassured enough to withdraw this amendment.
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, for her Amendment 36A. I am sure it was prompted by concerns for publicly funded learners who may find themselves without a place to complete their course in the event that an independent provider shuts down. I share her concerns but just as with FE bodies, the likelihood of independent training providers becoming insolvent is low. The Skills Funding Agency has a robust entry process in place to ensure providers are capable of delivering a high-quality learning offer to loans learners. Once providers have met the entry criteria and are eligible to offer loans-funded provision to learners they are subject to a range of further measures and controls, including review of their financial health, audit, and assessment of their qualification achievement rates. Providers are also required to comply with robust funding and performance rules. A small handful of providers is facing difficulty, but the numbers affected by these cases represent less than 1% of providers operating in the advanced learner loans programme.
Baroness Wolf of Dulwich
If it is not necessary to have protection because not very many people get affected, why is it necessary to have it for further education colleges, which also do not fail very often?
Lord Nash
I will come to that in my explanation. These are private companies and it is not our role to interfere. I will elaborate in a moment.
In cases where independent providers delivering publicly funded training courses have closed down, our first priority is to support any publicly funded learners affected, ensuring they can continue their courses with minimal disruption. The SFA works closely with the SLC to ensure that, wherever possible, we identify a suitable alternative training provider or college where individuals can complete their learning. We have been doing just that in a recent case, which received a certain amount of publicity, when a provider went into liquidation in November: we have matched all the learners to alternative provision.
However, these are private companies, and it is not for the Government to involve themselves in their financial matters any more than those of other private companies. This is, essentially, the point I made in answer to the noble Baroness. We will always work to support learners affected in cases where the provider fails and it is right that we do so, in the way I have outlined. But as to whether we should have a special administration regime, we cannot make the same special and complex arrangements, which will often involve significant and additional public funding, where a private company has failed. This is, and must remain, a matter for the company and its creditors and shareholders. I hope the noble Baroness will agree, and will therefore not press her amendment.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I asked how they are subject to scrutiny and accountability for the quality of service they are providing, never mind the financial side. I gave the Minister an example where I thought they would. I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Storey, that there are some good examples of training providers, but who scrutinises the quality of service they are actually providing? That was what I wanted to know.
Baroness Wolf of Dulwich
I am happy not to press my amendment, but I would like some clarification on why a private company which is often entirely dependent on public funding should be in some sense exempt from any requirements. This does not seem to be consistent with much of what goes on elsewhere in the public sector and what it requires of people.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
I think the Minister has sat down now and that the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, is very pertinent. From what has been said over the past half-hour or so, it is likely that we will return to this subject on Report. I have no doubt that the Minister and his officials will be looking at this in greater detail because the question of accountability is very important. Whether or not these are corporations, they are, as the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, said, dealing with public money.
My noble friend Lady Cohen asked what recourse students have if they are dissatisfied. The Minister did not answer that point. Again, this comes down to accountability. People have to have some come back if they do not get what they thought they were getting. I am talking about situations that fall short of the provider collapsing into insolvency. Many people may feel that they are getting an inferior product and that has to be something that can be followed up.
I take the Minister’s point in respect of Amendments 16 and 18 about the institute being independent and having the freedom to decide how it delivers. However, he went on to say that there would be two panels: one for students and one for apprentices. That is what our Amendment 16 asks for and it goes no further, other than to say that it need not be limited to those two panels. The Minister has conceded the point, as did his colleague Robert Halfon in another place, as I said earlier. We knew that, but it would be helpful to have a commitment because—we say this in respect of many pieces of legislation—we may get a commitment from Ministers now, but what about the Ministers or Government who follow them? There is nothing to fall back on should views change. That is why it is important on occasions such as this to have it written into the legislation.
The same could be said about Amendment 18 on employers. The Minister said—I wrote it down—that there would be a range of employers. We are asking for almost the same wording,
“a number of employers who, taken together, comprise a broad range of employer types”.
We are surely talking about the same thing and I do not understand the reluctance. The Minister clearly wants to see a broad range; so do we.
I think we might want to revisit these matters because we are capable of reaching a situation where both sides are satisfied. We want to make sure that this works and works well: that the boards are representative and that the standards set are proper and reached with the full support of the sector. They have to be acceptable to employers within each of the 15 occupational groups and seen to be representative of their needs. We have a bit of common ground but there is some ground yet to be made up before we reach what either side might find a satisfactory outcome. At this stage, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Lucas
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I shall also speak to the other amendments in this group. I remind the Committee that I am associated with City & Guilds, which obviously has an interest in what happens under this part of the Bill. I will leave remarks on intellectual property, as far as I can, to the next group, which seems to focus on that subject.
As part of the Sainsbury review, we have a proposal that each of the 15 routes that it suggests should have a single awarding body allocated to it and that those awarding bodies should be subject to review every seven years. The Department for Education took a long time thinking about this structure in regard to GCSEs and decided against. It decided to keep the current three and a half, as it were, awarding bodies available for every subject and I think it did that for a very good reason. A single awarding body is a single point of failure. If it goes wrong, we are stuck.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, I entirely support what the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, said. We have no pattern of a single awarding body which has been a success in any shape or form. With GCSEs, O-levels and all previous exams there was always a choice of learning styles, and each of the vocational awarding bodies brought something different in the material they used or type of learning style that lead to the final qualification. It was always up to the trainers, the teachers, to decide which awarding body they felt best met the needs of their students. Provided the standard is set, so you can guarantee that the same standard will be reached, there is immense benefit in having variety among awarding bodies and competition.
It is slightly ironic that whereas in higher education the Government seem to view more competition as the virtue above all others, in the Bill they are moving to a single source of awarding bodies. As the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, said, we need to be very cautious before destroying some worthwhile and reputable organisations and qualifications, not just in this country but internationally.
Baroness Wolf of Dulwich
My Lords, I must rise to defend the position of the Sainsbury review, as I was a member of it and signed up to it, after a great deal of debate. No one in the group moved easily to the position where we recommended a single qualification for the college-based route—not, I should add, for all apprenticeships. Nothing in the Sainsbury review says that employers do not have a choice at that level. We did so for historical reasons and for comparative reasons. Historically, the model described by the noble Baroness served us quite well, but it is pretty much unique. Other countries have a single set of national qualifications. They do not have competing awarding bodies.
Historically, the Government set out consciously to destroy any near-monopoly in the vocational area. Back in the 1960s and 1970s, although there was no formal monopoly for City & Guilds, for example, none the less, construction awards were City & Guilds. If you wanted to train as a nursery nurse, you did NNEB. These were extremely well-known and well-respected qualifications. Since then, we have had repeated attempts to break that situation open and instil standardisation via standards. The result has unfortunately been in many cases a clear race to the bottom and, worse, the disappearance of any qualification which is clearly recognised and therefore has a brand and market value. This was, in a way, a slightly sadder but wiser recommendation.
When I wrote the vocational education review for 14 to 18 year-olds, I did not recommend a single awarding body. I hoped at that point that a regime within the Department for Education, which had clear standards for a qualification passing muster, would lead to a serious improvement in the quality of the vocational awards and the assessment, and the emergence of recognised market leaders. It really depresses me that that did not happen. We have a real problem at the moment: the old recognition has gone and the modified regime, which was brought in in the middle, does not seem to have done the trick. We have a gigantic number of qualifications on the books, many of them taken by tiny numbers of people, with no clear recognition at all. This area is by necessity very different from GCSE, where the Government really do not give awarding bodies much freedom any more. The degree of freedom which you have in the key areas of English or maths is pretty notional. The decision not to go ahead with the single awarding body was not because of a belief that we should not have one but because of Ofqual’s well-justified conclusion that it would not merely disorient the whole system but so destabilise it that we might have a national disaster.
There is a real issue in how the institute does its licensing, but it is not true that a body which holds a licence does so forever. Clearly, nothing will prevent the institute varying its regime in future years. However, I feel we are now in a situation where if we do not make a clear attempt to create a recognised, national qualification for each of these routes, people will not take them. They will feel that everybody knows what an A-level or a BTEC is, but we still have 15 of these things and do not know what any of them mean. So for once, unusually, I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, and the noble Baroness, Lady Garden. The Sainsbury review was right to feel that a single licence for these classroom-based routes is what we have to do now, in 2017.
Lord Lucas
Yes, it is perfectly possible to do that but does the noble Baroness not think that we need a decent level of staff in IFATE in the middle of that? If she is saying that it will be the repository of this qualification and will maintain quality, integrity and innovation down through the years, can that be done on two and a half people, who seem to be all that are left to spare?
Baroness Wolf of Dulwich
I hope that with the licensing situation there will be a chunk of time when it is worth investing. There are issues relating to the licensing system, which we will get to later in the Committee, but we are not asking the institute to run the qualification. We are saying that there should be a licensed awarding body but that if the situation is not restored to where there is one clear, recognised qualification for a route, the qualification will have no brand recognition. The Government also tried repeatedly to kill off BTECs and they failed, because people value and need something that is known. In the current situation, we have created something of a desert with a few rather feeble weeds.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I must admit that I am torn now between the two positions, having heard what both sides have said. I must admit that my fear is that while I understand the point the Sainsbury review came to, that there are too many qualifications and there is a need for rationalisation, I have a sinking feeling that the baby could well go out with this bathwater—I cannot think of another cliché. To describe some of these well-known qualifications, whether they are City & Guilds, HND or HNC as bathwater seems unfair, but they are recognised brands with good reputations. As I understood it from previous debates, it was not absolute that they would go.
I accept the point that if you have too many qualifications, that creates confusion. I welcome that bit of it but I would welcome hearing some analysis from the Minister which says that we need not worry about these well-established brands which I have referred to and that if they go, so be it.
I cannot help but feel that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, is right to issue a word of caution about putting all our eggs in one basket. It will take time to establish a new brand—we know how difficult that is. The idea of these debates is to probe, and this is an area where we need to be sure that we are heading in the right direction.
Lord Knight of Weymouth
My Lords, I remind the Committee that I am a patron of an awarding body, ASDAN. Also, as a Minister, I spent three years building a clear, recognised qualification in the form of diplomas, which then got killed off after a huge amount of time, effort and money were spent trying to develop them, although some of them certainly seemed to be well received—engineering comes to mind.
I paid close attention to what the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, said. I respect the work that she and the Sainsbury commission did. I certainly agree that we need these to be clearly recognised qualifications, but there are a number of ways to get to that point. I remember well the SATS marking crisis through which I had to navigate as a Minister. We had a problem with the company carrying out the marking. We ended up having to dismiss it from the contract and had to re-let the contract. We found that there was only one awarding body with the capacity to do that work. Edexcel effectively had us over a barrel. Happily, it was a responsible organisation and did not want to exploit the monopoly position in which it found itself, but it is really dangerous if you find yourself without the competitive capacity for different people to respond as and when circumstances change.
I welcome what the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, has done by raising this issue and giving us an opportunity to explore it. Clearly, there will be general capacity if different awarding bodies are awarded the contracts for different groups, but there would remain issues about their specialism in the subjects attached to each of those groups. My instinct is that the Sainsbury review might have got it wrong in this case. It may be that I just do not understand well enough what the department has in mind in terms of the model. I may not understand the extent to which it wants to specify the inputs into the qualification, how much it is concerned with the outcomes, how detailed it wants to be, how much it wants to specify the pedagogy, or whether it is thinking that these are wrappers in which you could put other qualifications, so that there is a single overarching contract-awarding body. Perhaps the Minister can enlighten me in his response or in some other way.
As the Committee has discussed, we must put quality first. As I keep saying, we must ensure that we have agility. The time it takes to develop qualifications reduces agility, and a seven-year contract makes me very anxious about how that agility can be preserved as skills needs change in the economy. I am particularly keen that we embed in the design the potential for innovation in assessment and awarding. I see innovative practice going on around the world, particularly by employers using digital badges that can have wrappers put around them to keep up-to-date with skills and the value of an employers’ own qualification, with a meta-qualification on top through the wrapper mechanism. It is crucial that we allow for that. The notion of a single contract for these qualifications, thereby reducing competition, makes me worry profoundly about innovation. I find myself, as a Labour Peer, arguing with a Conservative Government that we want competition. I hope that the Minister will revert to instinct, listen and agree competition is good to improve delivery and agility in the system.
Lord Storey
I remember that my nursery nurses were terribly upset when their NNEB qualifications went and they became NVQ level 3. They were devastated, so there is something in a name and perhaps in a bit of tradition. I am a bit torn. I understand the Sainsbury review and the Government saying: let us create and agree a standard for the different pathways and maintain it. That is the qualification we will have so, presumably, various organisations can bid for it and, if they win the contract, the Government will ensure that they maintain the quality and standard.
However, as has been said, there is something about having competition. You have to look only at GCSEs, where the Secretary of State at the time wanted to have a single provider. There was a sort of rebellion against that and it did not come to pass. Schools and young people themselves can choose which awarding body to go for. Different awarding bodies suit pupils for different reasons—the content may match their study. We must think carefully about this. It is important for parents, young people and employers. Getting the name right is important but sometimes people also like letters after the name—there is a later amendment from my noble friend Lady Garden about that. I am caught on this, but I hope that we can explore the best way forward.
Baroness Cohen of Pimlico
I am responsible for 2,000 degree-level apprentices and about the same number of others. At the moment, we do what the employer wants. If the employer arrives and says: “I would like the formal training to have these outcomes”, we say, “Right”, then we discuss it and bid for it. I had been assuming that we could adjust to the new regime. If the Institute for Apprenticeships stated the outcomes that it wanted, we could teach to those outcomes because that is what we do. We would be able, in essence, to do a wraparound to suit a particular employer, which would include the vital bits that the Institute for Apprenticeships wanted. I am a little puzzled if we are to be told that we all have to teach the same thing on, say, the finance course by the bit of the Institute for Apprenticeships that is working out finance training. At the moment, let us say that KPMG tells us how it wants us to do finance training. We would do that but if someone else wanted it to be slightly different, our competitive advantage over the years has been built on adjusting to do a different sort of finance training.
I am not quite sure where I am going with this, but are we providers still to be allowed variation in any way if an employer asks us to do it slightly differently, provided we include a certain number of outcomes and standards, as set out by the institute? To take an example from my experience, with our graduate law course we made our name by introducing a City law course that the City wanted. “Wait”, we said, “we’ll do that”. Of course, it is all the same law but it was specialist. We did that and not some other bits of law. I can imagine that being the outcome still: some City firms want varieties of law taught that nobody else cares about, as in shipping law, and some accountants want things that nobody else much cares about taught, as in shipping finance. Are we to end up with an agreed set of standards to which we must adhere, but around which we can wrap something that employers might want, or not? I am arguing for a setting of outcomes and standards by the institute but with a little deviation allowed, provided those apprenticeships include the basic standards and outcomes. Will the Minister tell me about that?
Lord Aberdare
My Lords, I share the concerns that have been expressed about a single awarding body. I would have thought that the idea would be to have the sort of single recognised qualification that the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, is looking for, but delivered in slightly varying ways by two or three highly qualified, well-regulated and well-managed organisations. Having all one’s eggs in a single basket worries me from the point of view of what happens if it does not work and what happens if you want to change the franchisee.
Amendment 17 would require,
“at least one recognised technical qualification”,
in the outcomes. I very much welcome the fact that standards are to be employer-led. That should ensure that they are focused on skills for which there is a market and which will lead to jobs, but it is also very important to ensure that the needs of the learner or trainee are properly reflected. One of those needs is to acquire portable skills and attainments that are transferable to the different jobs or activities that trainees might move into. Having recognised technical qualifications included in the standards is a way of doing that. Many of those qualifications already exist in the form of NVQs, diplomas and what have you; new ones will no doubt emerge under the new process.
When I used to run employability training programmes for young Londoners not in employment, education or training, we quickly learned the value of including recognised qualifications in our programmes. Many of the young people we worked with had what you might call relatively chaotic lives and did not necessarily follow what might be considered a well-organised career trajectory. The fact that at the end of the programmes they could demonstrate achievement of some specific qualifications, whether in English, communications, basic employment skills, or ASDAN qualifications, which we also used, or health and safety or creative skills, gave them something to work with when it came to taking a new and possibly quite distinct step into a job or a career.
The noble Baroness, Lady Cohen, mentioned that her courses are geared to what employers need, but the employers which tend to be predominant in defining those needs are the larger employers. Very often the requirements do not necessarily reflect the needs and realities of SMEs and the sort of young people seeking jobs in SMEs, as I define them. For that reason, there is great value in the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas.
Lord Baker of Dorking (Con)
My Lords, this is an important part of the Bill because this is how the Government clearly intend the institute to instil some rigour in technical qualifications and apprenticeships. The method they are using is set out fairly clearly. There are two words which need clear definition in this part of the Bill: one is “standards” and the other is “outcomes”.
On standards, as I understand it, you have to choose your occupation. Let us say it is plumbing. The institute would then say, “We are going to do plumbing today”, so it would get a group of plumbers together to determine what the standards should be. Are the standards likely to have labels 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5? I assume that the department has worked out what a standard would look like. Could the Minister give us an example or write to us about it? It does not look as though the department have prepared them. It would be interesting to know what a standard would look like. That is not clear from the Bill.
Then there are outcomes. Can the Minister give us an example of what an outcome would be? Is it the same as on the next page of the Bill, “an approved educational qualification”? What will the outcome be of this operation? Will the institute say, “We have studied all the plumbing qualifications and we think the one from BTEC is the best”? “Outcome” means a specific something so that someone can say, “That is the end of it all”. It would be very helpful to have some explanation of how this system is to work.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I join the noble Lord, Lord Baker, in saying that, at heart, we want to hear how this will operate, because that will inform our future debates. Like my noble friend Lord Knight, I have no problem at all with competition where it can drive quality and innovation. However, that depends on the nature of the market and the capacity and nous of the commissioning body. Frankly, my concern is that government procurement has not usually shown itself able to have the agility that my noble friend asked for. The constraints put upon public sector procurement drive you to award tenders on a crude price basis. Ministers always sign up to concepts of value for money and outcomes, as the noble Lord, Lord Baker, said. But as anyone dealing with the Government will know, the reality is that it always comes down to price. The noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, made a very convincing argument on the principles, but the real question is on the practice of procurement and licensing.
There was a tension in what the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, said. He had two worries: one was that the franchising system envisaged would allow too little time for a provider to invest morally, intellectually and financially in the very long term; equally, the other was that because of the single-provider approach, there will be little competition at the end of the franchise period. I suppose he would say the risk is that we end up with the worst of all worlds, with low-quality provision and a provider that is not interested in the long term, and the institute having no choice at the end of the day.
It comes down to capacity. We are talking about an institute with 80 people. I hope that most of their time will be spent overseeing standards, because I for one simply do not trust the approach that is being taken. How can we rely on employers, given that their record in this country is so dismal? I hope the institute will have people who can talk to and challenge the panels. But who will be left to oversee these contracts? The record of government and public sector bodies in procurement is dismal.
My other question is to the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf. In its deliberations, did the review look at the ability of the public sector to commission in a sensible, grown-up way, rather than the usual crude way that is taken? My noble friend Lord Adonis is in his place, and I am tempted to invite him to talk about some examples of that in rail franchising. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, mentioned this at Second Reading, and clearly there are a number of examples of where the Department for Transport has gone for a bid that was overambitious from the company concerned and has had to come to the rescue. There are also examples of the argument around whether a franchise can be extended to enable the train operator to invest in the future development of services. I hope that the Minister’s department will look at that experience before getting into this sort of system. For me, it is not so much about the principle but about the capacity of the institute to handle what could be a very difficult issue.
Baroness Buscombe
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords, and in particular my noble friend Lord Lucas, for this very helpful debate on these amendments. My task is to try to reassure all noble Lords that we are on the right page and that we are not talking about what we have had in the past, which was all about a race to the bottom. That was the reason the Sainsbury review was set up in the first place. I hope I can reassure noble Lords that we are trying to achieve the right thing, and I shall explain in more detail how this is going to work.
On Amendment 17, good-quality standards developed by employers and other relevant experts are at the heart of the apprenticeship and technical education reforms, and we must ensure that they are fit for purpose. In future, standards will form the basis of both apprenticeships and technical education qualifications in the reformed system, and they must be appropriate for both pathways. One of the cornerstones of the apprenticeship reforms has been to move away from a qualifications-based system—in the past, apprentices have collected a number of small, often low-quality, qualifications throughout their apprenticeship—to a single end-point assessment that tests all-round competency in the occupation.
By mandating, as the amendment proposes, the inclusion of a technical education qualification in each standard, we would be moving back towards this system, and reintroducing something which was a significant factor in the decreasing quality of apprenticeships in the past under the framework model. There may be some cases, such as degree apprenticeships, where including a qualification is appropriate, but we should not require it in every case. The purpose of the apprenticeship reforms is that they are employer led, so employers and other experts should have their input for each standard.
In addition, this approach may also blur the lines between the two pathways, which are intentionally different. For those on an apprenticeship, the individual primarily gains the knowledge, skills and behaviours set out in the standard through learning on the job and 20% off-the-job training, which is then tested through a single end-point assessment. A technical education qualification is taught largely in a college environment, often supplemented by a work placement and other steps leading to the new TE certificate. By including a technical education qualification in all apprenticeships—which would be the effect of the amendment—we would lose the essential flexibility of standards developed by employers and others and limit the breadth of skills that can be obtained through an apprenticeship.
I noted that a number of Second Reading speeches, particularly that of the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Yardley, were very strong on this point of flexibility. Several noble Lords have touched on this this afternoon. We do not want to lose flexibility through this process, and we must have some clarity.
The apprenticeship end-point assessment is the equivalent of the technical education qualification for those who have undertaken an apprenticeship, but also captures a wider range of skills and behaviours as well as knowledge. It needs to be given time to gain the value and worth with employers that many currently associate with qualifications. Including a technical education qualification would undermine this by narrowing an apprenticeship so that the measurement is more focused on a knowledge-based qualification and less on occupational competency.
I can, however, reassure the noble Lord that our apprenticeship system is flexible and that qualifications can be included in apprenticeships where that is what employers need, in circumstances, for example, where failing to include a qualification would put the learner at a disadvantage in the workplace or where it is a statutory requirement. We do not believe that technical qualifications should be included in all apprenticeships.
Amendments 26 to 30 relate to copyright. I understand the concerns my noble friend Lord Lucas has raised on copyright, and I hope that I might be able to provide an explanation that will put his mind at rest. My noble friend has proposed that the institute should retain the copyright for standards and common qualification criteria rather than for relevant course documents. Amendments in the Enterprise Act, due to come into force in April, already make provision for the copyright for standards to transfer to the institute upon approval. It follows that the institute would own the copyright for any common qualification criteria that it has produced. By common criteria, we mean design features of the qualifications that are the same, irrespective of the route studied.
The qualifications system in England is unique. Qualifications that attract public funding are developed and supplied not by the Government but by awarding organisations. Our reforms will see the institute taking responsibility for ensuring that only high-quality technical qualifications that match employer-set standards are approved by the institute. This will see the institute working with employers and other relevant stakeholders to set the content of qualifications. There will be a number of people involved in this, on the different panels, including ex-apprentices.
While we recognise that it is a departure from the current system, the transfer of copyright for relevant course documents is an important feature of the reforms. The scope of the licences for the delivery of qualifications and the details of relevant course documents will be established in due course. These may well include a specific technical assessment design specification, as well as other documents that are key to the make-up and assessment of a qualification. We would expect the institute to work closely with key stakeholders, as we propose to do, to make sure that the detail is right. This will, of course, include the organisations that develop qualifications.
If copyright for relevant course documents does not reside with the institute, we could end up with a technical education system where any innovation and employer needs are undermined by commercial interests. While we believe absolutely in competition, we want competition to raise quality and standards. If an organisation other than the institute holds the copyright for a particular qualification indefinitely, this would effectively create a stranglehold that would make it difficult for other organisations to enter the market. This would clearly not be in the public interest or fair value for the taxpayer.
However, we do not want an inflexible system. The institute will be able to grant a licence to an organisation or person for use of documents for which it owns the copyright. This could include granting a licence back to the organisation that has developed the qualification. There are also important safeguards provided for in new Section A2DA.
Amendments 28 and 29 seek to clarify that the institute may grant more than one person a licence or be assigned a right or interest in any copyright document. I would like to reassure noble Lords that it is precisely our intention that more than one person may be assigned a licence if in particular circumstances this is appropriate. I would also like to draw noble Lords’ attention to Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978. This stipulates that, unless it is clear that there is a contrary intention, wherever there are words in the singular these include the plural and vice versa. This means that the institute may grant a licence, right or interest in any copyright document to more than one person, should this be appropriate.
I hope that that goes some way towards reassuring noble Lords. In addition, I would like to touch on one or two of the questions—all of them if possible. If I do not reassure everybody, I would be very happy to write to noble Lords. My noble friend Lord Lucas questioned this single route, but each route will include a number of qualifications, each based on a cluster of occupations. If an awarding organisation fails, the institute’s copyright arrangements will allow another awarding organisation to step in. What is important is that this primary legislation does not tie our hands. Panels will be starting work this summer on the detail of the different courses. The noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, who is, sadly, not in her place, has explained in detail why the commission decided to depart from the existing system and say that it is much better to have one organisation.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
With the greatest respect, that is a ridiculous comment, and I do not know why the noble Baroness said it. We have not heard whether the institute, with its 80 staff, has the capacity to handle what looks to me like a very complex procurement situation. In fact, we have heard very little about the institute’s capacity, when it must also be concerned with whether the panels producing the standards are doing the right thing. I have yet to hear any explanation of why the contracting process that has been undertaken will ensure that quality is at the forefront. What I said was that public sector procurement tends not to go down that route. If the noble Baroness wants an example of what the Government are doing at the moment—I must declare my interest as president of the Health Care Supply Association—I would say that many of the current procurement processes in health are very much about price at the expense of quality.
Baroness Buscombe
I respect the noble Lord’s response, but 80 employees is quite a lot of people, and that is not where it will end. The number will rise by another 30 later this year as the process is introduced and developed. It is also important for noble Lords to appreciate that we want to use the expertise and interest of outside individuals who understand the needs of employers and what it was like as an apprentice and so on to support the institute so that we have a flow of expertise seconded, in a sense, to the institute, to work with it. So they are not the same individuals who are stressed and stretched at the number of 80.
The noble Lord does not look content with that answer, but is very important that price is not the point here.
My noble friend Lord Baker talked about standards. I am pleased to say in response that a number of standards for apprenticeships have already been published and are in use. We can, of course, send examples to noble Lords, but there are not enough completions to share outcomes yet. That will follow.
Lord Baker of Dorking
I understood the Minister to say that an outcome is not necessarily an educational qualification. Is that correct?
Lord Baker of Dorking
Then what is an outcome? I think that at some stage in her speech the Minister said that it was a level of knowledge. She then went on to say that it does not necessarily mean competence in applying that knowledge. When it comes to plumbing, I am all in favour of knowledgeable plumbers, but I want plumbers who can fix things.
Baroness Buscombe
I agree entirely with my noble friend. Forgive me if, when talking about knowledge, it seemed as though that was the end of the story. We are looking for occupational competence. That is the key to certification: that people are absolutely prepared and competent to enter the world of work as a fully-fledged employee in that area.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I want to be sure I understand this. If we stick to the example of plumbing, I am assuming that the individual would have carried out an apprenticeship that met the occupational standards that have been determined by the panel of employers. That may or may not include a technical qualification. I hope I have got that right. There are 15 routes, and panels have been set up under the categories of employers—there may be other people on the panels—and they are going to set the occupational standards that will form the basis of the apprenticeship. When an individual reaches the end of their apprenticeship, they should have met all those standards and there will, I hope, be some assessment outcome that will prove to the satisfaction of the noble Lord, Lord Baker, that they can do a Yorkshire fitting and a compression joint. I would like an example of where the noble Baroness feels an apprenticeship would not include a technical qualification.
Baroness Buscombe
Off the top of my head, I cannot give a particular example. The noble Baroness, Lady Cohen, talked about shipping law. Perhaps a technical qualification is not so appropriate for that.
Baroness Cohen of Pimlico
A lawyer’s qualification would be required, but it does not necessarily have to be called “shipping law”.
Baroness Buscombe
Surely that is a good example.
I have been talking plumbers with officials so that I can understand what we are trying to achieve here. The noble Lord is absolutely right: it is about achieving occupational competence. However, if that panel decides, through time and through outcomes, that something is not right, we do not want the hands of the institute to be tied. The point is that the primary legislation will allow flexibility so that those standards could be changed in the light of any perceived failure or lack of occupational competence through practical application of the examinations of the qualifications. I hope that is helpful.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
This is surely what awarding bodies are doing all the time—they are awarding qualifications but if things change, they adapt the qualifications as they go along. I do not quite see why we need this supra-body in the form of the institute to oversee work that goes on all the time with vocational qualifications.
Baroness Buscombe
That goes back to the core reason why we are doing this. There were multifarious organisations rather than one overarching body to say that the standards are just not good enough and the qualifications are not preparing x or y for the world of work. This is why the review was set up: there was no consistency in the standards and those bodies were allowed to fail the apprentices. That is what this legislation is all about. As noble Lords said at length at Second Reading, for too long we have failed apprentices and allowed them to be second class and ignored. The same rigour has not been applied in further education as in the higher education system, and that is what we are seeking to put right.
Noble Lords have asked some important, incisive questions this afternoon, and I am sure they will continue to do so throughout the passage of the Bill, about how we do this and what the process is. I reassure noble Lords that this legislation is a framework. It is not intended to prescribe the detail of what the institute will do going forward. The point is to set the framework to allow the institute and excellence to thrive. It will ensure standards of competence so that young people going out into the world of work have something in their hands which means something to all employers and which they can rely on for their future employment.
In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Cohen, providers will need to make sure that they include the core outcomes approved by the institute and developed by employers and others. However, they can add additional elements to meet employers’ needs. In a sense it could, as the noble Baroness suggested, be bespoke for a particular employer’s requirements, as it is currently. For technical qualifications at level 2 and 3, the content will be the same wherever it is taught. That is key: it gives employers a sense that they can trust that a person turning up with a qualification has something which is recognised and will provide what they are seeking. However, colleges will be able to tailor wider programmes of study to meet local needs.
I hope I have gone some way to reassuring noble Lords that these amendments are not necessary. On that basis, I ask—
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I think I am clearer now on the standards. In the last part of her contribution, the Minister referred to technical qualifications. The Bill is very prescriptive on the institute’s control of approving and licensing technical education certificates. How does that leave the current technical education qualifications? The Bill says that:
“The Institute must maintain a list of approved technical education qualifications”.
How does that impact on existing technical education qualifications?
Baroness Buscombe
In essence, I am assured that it will lead to new qualifications. Is that any help to the noble Lord?
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I would welcome a letter clarifying that situation. What happens to the existing ones? We have mentioned these brands almost ad nauseam. Will there be some transition process?
Baroness Buscombe
I would be very happy to write to the noble Lord but, in essence, the current qualifications will become obsolete and the funding will be removed. There will, obviously, be a transitional process.
Lord Baker of Dorking
We are learning a lot as we go along. It was quite interesting, although it was not very specific in the Bill. When all the existing qualifications are binned and new ones emerge, the awarding bodies which have lost will almost certainly challenge it under judicial review. This is going to be a lawyer’s paradise. If you are now going to decide that it is going to be City & Guilds for plumbing, BTEC will want to know exactly why you have said that and why its plumbing qualifications are no good. That is for the lawyers to decide is it not?
Baroness Buscombe
I reassure my noble friend that there will be a proper tender process for this. Through it, the current organisations can apply for a licence to continue what they are doing now as an awarding organisation.
Lord Knight of Weymouth
I want to pick up on the very interesting point that the noble Lord raises. If you have a single relationship with a provider, when it comes to renewal you are in quite a perilous place, given the closeness that the organisation will have had to government, in terms of being assured that the retendering will be as fair as can be—and not just in terms of capacity. The Minister said what she said about copyright. I have some concerns about how much valuable work you will get from awarding bodies if they are going to hand over their IP to government, but I will park that worry to one side. Given this closeness to government, how are you going to make sure that the reprocurement will work?
Baroness Buscombe
First, it is not being handed over to the Government but to the institute, which is funded—
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, there is no such thing as independent bodies in this area. All the bodies listed are going to be in one way or another under the heavy influence of government. The very fact that we are legislating for it means that, in the end, Ministers will take responsibility for what the institute does. There is no other way the Government can discharge accountability. Clearly, the Government will use the usual public sector tendering approach, which is a dead hand and will not, in my view, allow for innovation.
I do not know what the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, is going to do, but one thing that has struck me about the meetings we have had so far is that we have not really met the institute or its acting chief executive or the board members. I think it would be invaluable to listen to them to understand how they are going to take this process forward. We have not been convinced that the institute, to which I assume all the usual public accountabilities will apply, will have the actual capacity to handle the kind of sophisticated tendering that is required. That seems to me to be the problem.
Baroness Buscombe
I am sorry that the noble Lord seems to be taking quite a negative approach to this. As I said earlier, this Bill is for primary legislation to set a framework. Of course, there may be a situation where Ministers may have to have oversight, but the reality is that we want this to work as charged by the Sainsbury review. We are responding to a situation where we want to turn around something that has clearly not worked, and has clearly not been successful or provided the best outcomes for young people going into the world of work. We are trying to change that.
All I can say at this point is that we are happy to write to noble Lords to explain in more detail what we are trying to achieve through this process. As I said earlier, the legislation will not tie the hands of the institute. Flexibility and quality are key words in how this will develop.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for her lengthy explanation. The main thing I would like to ask her is that, between Committee and Report, we have the chance to sit down and discuss this, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, says, with the people who are going to deliver this, as far as we can find them, so that we can get a real understanding of how this process is going to work.
I am delighted that my noble friend uses the word “flexibility”, but I cannot see how a seven-year provider four years into a contract is going to react when faced with an industry which says that it wants things changed because the technology or the requirements have moved on. The provider is going to ask, “How am I going to do this? It takes two years to change things and then I have a year to get my money back on this. What’s the game?”. I cannot see why, within the structure the Minister has described, two or three awarding organisations would be a problem; I can see why a single awarding organisation is a very deep problem in terms of the power transfer from government to the organisations.
I do not think that anybody who has spoken is opposed to the Government trying to make things better. We all have a sense of what is wrong with the current system, but we do not see that what is proposed answers that. That is not because the structure cannot answer it but because, to do the things that is asked of it, IFATE has to be a much stronger organisation. Alternatively, we need an arrangement, as we have with GCSEs, where below IFATE there is a layer or organisations that have a long-term commitment to and belief in improving things—they may be competing with each other but, essentially, they will work in partnership with IFATE and should expect to be there for the long term. That is better than a circulating body of people who are there and not there on a seven-year cycle, given that education cycles are so much longer. We would like to get an understanding of that and I very much hope my noble friend may be able to organise a meeting for us.
Baroness Buscombe
I am very happy to say that a meeting on the basis my noble friend suggests would be welcome between now and Report.
Lord Lucas
I am very grateful for that, and I am sure that other Members of the Committee would be delighted to come. I do not think there is any virtue then in continuing my peroration. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
“(1A) A technical education qualification approved under this section, which is undertaken by a person over compulsory school age but under 19, must support the person’s entitlement to the core entitlement under section 17C of the Education Act 1996 (the core entitlement).”
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, Amendment 20 is designed to ensure that 16 to 19 year-olds in danger of an endless cycle of resitting maths and English GCSEs have the right to a full technical course in those fields. The background to this is the decision of the Government that, from August 2014, all students aged 16 to 18 who are starting or have already started a new programme of 150 hours or more and do not hold a GCSE at grades A to C in maths and English, or the new GCSE grades 9 to 4 equivalent, are required to study those subjects as part of their study programmes in each academic year. In 2015, this was changed so that the requirement applies also to all those with a grade D in those subjects—I am not quite sure who I am addressing at the moment on this; usually one addresses hot air, but there we are.
One can understand why the Government went down this route, but the problem is that figures released in August 2016 by the Joint Council for Qualifications show that almost 122,500 learners aged 17 or above did not get at least a grade C in maths, while 93,000 failed to secure at least a grade C in English. I looked at the comment of Mark Dawe of the Association of Employment and Learning Providers, who said:
“this is evidence … that hitting students over the head with the same form of learning and assessment is not the way forward. Functional skills, designed to develop core maths and English skills but with the learning contextualised and relevant, is proven to engage and motivate these learners, particularly those who have been turned off these subjects by their school experience”.
Anyone who has come across teachers who have to teach and meet these students, resit after resit, will know that it can become a totally depressing exercise for everyone involved.
This was discussed in the other place and I note the comments of the Secretary of State, Justine Greening. She said:
“We have been clear that we do not want children to be left behind by not getting a GCSE in maths or English when they could have achieved one, so we want those who score a D to take resits. For others, however, there is the option to study for functional skills qualifications, and it is important for employers that we make sure those functional skills qualifications work effectively”.—[Official Report, Commons, 14/11/16; col. 41.]
I understand that the Minister, Mr Halfon, has pointed out that the Secretary of State has directional powers over the institute to achieve this.
No one doubts the need to ensure that relevant literacy and numerical skills courses are available to young people aged 16 to 18 that clearly support further technical education and apprenticeships. Clearly they are an opportunity to get employment. There is, however, a real concern that at the moment too many young people are having to go through a very dispiriting process of repeating studies that they have already failed, and which many of them will continue to fail.
I hope that the Minister will be able to assure me that the Government are looking again at this area, in parallel to Sir Adrian Smith’s study into the feasibility of compulsory maths being continued for all pupils to the age of 18—the two very much run together. I beg to move.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 21, 24 and 25 in my name in this group. I pass on apologies from the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf. She has had to leave for an emergency meeting and has said that she will bring her Amendment 23A on Report.
Amendments 21 and 25 deal with issues of copyright. The Minister addressed issues of copyright in the previous group and I have been left somewhat confused. Issues of copyright were not referred to in the skills plan. It appears that the Government wish to retain copyright and intellectual property rights of qualifications, thus enabling them, if they should so choose, to transfer delivery of qualifications from one awarding body to another. It is not clear why the Government should wish to do this. It is hard to think of another market in which a supplier would freely cede ownership of copyright of its product for no material benefit. The model offers no incentive for any provider of regulated qualifications to enter into a market or take the responsibility for developing and supporting a qualification for which the copyright ownership has been transferred to a third party.
The issue of copyright is complex. The policy intention here seems to be one of control and safeguarding delivery of a consistent qualification should the Government wish to remove a supplier from the market. Surely adding further complexity to intellectual property ownership is not the best way to meet this policy objective. There is no detail on how the process might work. A lack of clarity in this area, especially if export earnings were put at risk, could be a further disincentive to awarding bodies to engage.
If the proposal is that the qualification should be wholly owned and developed by government, we would counsel some detailed research into previous forays by central Government into the vocational qualifications market space, including individual learning accounts or as the noble Lord, Lord Knight, has mentioned, the 14 to 19 diploma. I bear the scars of the development of GNVQ, which nearly bankrupted BTEC when the Government came up with a new design of the qualifications, and it was not at all clear that any promotional material had gone into convincing the public, pupils, teachers and learners that this was a good qualification. GNVQs did some good things, but they had such rotten publicity that they never had the chance really to get off the ground. A great deal of time and money were spent in trying to promote those. If we are to learn anything from the past, surely it is that qualification and assessment ownership, and design and development work, are better left to professional bodies with specialist expertise in qualification and assessment rather than being controlled centrally by civil servants or quangos or, dare I say, even by politicians.
Government ownership of qualifications is not a feature of other qualifications, or of undergraduate or postgraduate qualifications offered by the higher education sector. No evidence base has been provided to support the proposal to move to nationalisation of qualifications, nor any assessment of the intended benefits, costs or risks of any such model. If an awarding organisation did not wish to hand over its intellectual property, it would be in a position where the institute would not approve its qualification for use in the funded market. This effectively closes the 16 to 19 market to awarding organisations which do not wish to relinquish their intellectual property.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, most of what I want to say has been said very well by the noble Baroness, Lady Garden. I have a couple of questions to add. First, some of the existing awarding organisations have quite substantial overseas businesses in the qualifications that they currently run. Is it the Government’s intention that these should be destroyed? I cannot see how they could be continued under the proposed IP arrangements. Secondly, how do the Government propose to deal with the incorporation into their regulated qualifications of qualifications whose IP they cannot hope to own, such as a CompTIA or Cisco qualification? In other words, if an apprenticeship can have four or five of these qualifications stuck in it like a currant bun—which is very much what employers want—presumably no transfer of intellectual property is involved. If this is the case for CompTIA, why should it not be the case for any existing awarding organisation?
Baroness Whitaker (Lab)
I remind noble Lords of my fellowship of the Working Men’s College. I support Amendment 20, not only for all the reasons so eloquently expressed by my noble friend but because it also offers a much more solid opportunity for young people from the Gypsy and Traveller communities to enter apprenticeships and to gain qualifications. These people have often dropped out of secondary school. A high proportion do so, for a variety of reasons. High among them are bullying and discrimination, and there is also a degree of alienation. However, these young people want to earn a living. They live in a work culture, an entrepreneurial one even. Their traditional trades—tarmacking, tree-lopping and scrap metal dealing—now need a high enough standard of literacy and numeracy to understand quite a lot of documentation, such as safety regulations and all sorts of papers. They do not often acquire these at school, so the implementation of this worthwhile amendment could result in many more such young people gaining a credential and raising their earning potential, so allowing them to join a society which, in the past, has tended not to be sympathetic.
Baroness Cohen of Pimlico
I support Amendment 20. I had hoped that one of the most important things we were doing in the Bill was providing a route to employment that did not involve crossing apparently insuperable academic barriers, which some children seem to have no way to get through. These are children who, for some reason or another, have been unable to follow conventional education paths, such as the Travellers of whom my noble friend spoke, or who have suffered parental negligence or have been in care—those children have a notoriously poor track record in conventional education; or are children whom I did not know existed until I was in my 20s who learn not from books or from being told things but through their hands.
We had a nanny for my children who, after six years decided to leave us to train as a nurse, but she could not muster the necessary two O-levels to become a state-enrolled nurse. With the aid of very good references, we managed somehow to persuade the Royal Free to take her for that training. She passed third in the hospital because she was one of the people for whom, if your hands can do it, she can write it down and explain it.
I so hope that this will be another group of children who will be rescued, if you like, from misery in conventional education by the way out of an apprenticeship. I do not want them retaking their GCSEs. I want a special provision, and I hope that the Institute for Apprenticeships will be able to make it, while, by all means, if they need it, providing for further maths or other education. By the way, this proved a very successful way of integrating some of our immigrant population who do not have an academic background but are well capable of undertaking apprenticeships. The more enlightened jobcentres have been pointing them in exactly that direction, but you have not to disqualify them before they start. That goes back to the point that we were all making earlier about the benefit trap: many of our children will be unable to access an apprenticeship without paying an unaffordable financial penalty.
The Bill must be about rescuing many of our young from insuperable barriers to employment, and I very much hope that we can manage not to put any more in their way.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, I support the amendments and shall speak specifically to Amendment 20. When I ask employers what they value most about young apprentices, the qualities are what I often hear referred to here as soft skills, but they are not, really they are essential skills. They are the skills of being able to turn up on time regularly, work as part of a team, show enthusiasm and so on. Often, ironically, the complaints that you get from employers are about those who are technically well-qualified but lack those essential skills. This amendment is about creating flexibility and recognising that there are young people who will, for a variety of reasons explained today, find it difficult, as my noble friend Lord Hunt said, to go through the demoralising impact of resits for qualifications that will not assess their innate capabilities, as my noble friend Lady Cohen described. I hope that we will get a constructive response.
Lord Storey
My Lords, I add my support to Amendment 20. Yes, it is absolutely right that we do all in our power to ensure that young people are numerate and literate. It seems reasonable to say that we want them to get to a certain level in mathematics, but that should not be a barrier to everything else. Special needs have not been mentioned. Are we to insist that children who have particular special needs or an aversion to numbers are to be included? We would not expect children who are dyslexic to get to certain standards in literacy because of the severity of their dyslexia.
We have heard about Travellers and immigrants, but there are young people for whom the system—perhaps poor teaching—has not helped them to get it. We then have this whole re-sit culture, and they get more and more fearful of failing and we do not want to label people as failures. I enjoyed the argument and think the word “flexibility” is so important. I know young people who have been taken on by employers, and the employer has said: “Well, they’ve got problems with numeracy and literacy, but they really sparked at this particular job”. Some of them have gone on to take some qualifications later. Let us not label people, let us have flexibility and do all we can to make sure that young people get to a certain level—“C”—in mathematics, but that should not be the be all and end all.
Baroness Buscombe
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for the amendments and welcome the opportunity to debate them. I fully understand why the noble Lords, Lord Watson, and Lord Hunt, are supporting Amendment 20. Having a sound grasp of English, maths and digital skills is fundamental to getting ahead in work and life. Raising literacy and numeracy levels at all stages of education, including post-16, is essential and remains an absolute priority.
We recognise that current requirements are still low by international standards, and we believe that individuals should have higher aspirations. In the longer term, as the quality of pre and post-16 English and maths teaching and associated learner outcomes improve, the Government should raise maths and English requirements to reflect those of higher-performing international technical education systems.
Since we made it a condition of funding, all 16 to 19 year-olds beginning a study programme who have not achieved an A* to C GCSE in English and maths must continue to study these subjects until they do so, unless specific special educational needs or disabilities prevent them. I will repeat that to underline it: unless specific special educational needs or disabilities prevent them from doing so, so there are exceptions. This has resulted in thousands more students securing these GCSEs by the age of 19. The OECD has commended us on our reforms and, working with schools, colleges and employers, we will build on them.
We will do so by implementing the Sainsbury panel’s recommendations on English and maths. We have accepted the panel’s recommendation that there should be a single set of English and maths exit requirements governing college-based technical education and apprenticeships, and we will continue to require all 16 to18 year-olds to study English and maths if they have yet to achieve GCSE A* to C in these subjects.
The Government consider that English and maths requirements should be included as steps towards occupational competence. As well as good literacy and numeracy, everyone needs an essential set of digital skills to succeed in the modern workplace. Digital skills requirements should be tailored and groups of persons will be in the lead to specify digital skills that are required for entry into particular groups of skilled occupations.
We believe that there should be a minimum level of English or maths which all individuals must achieve ahead of securing technical education certification, as is already the case for apprentices. We will work with the institute to ensure that occupation-specific English and maths requirements are incorporated into each route.
Before I turn to the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, I repeat the point about exceptions. We are talking about people with special needs and so on, where it may be just too difficult. The noble Lord spoke about the resit culture, and we absolutely understand that. However, in an environment where we are offering young people the opportunity through apprenticeships for genuine employment in the world of work, there is a hope and desire that those people should understand that basic core skills in English, maths and digital skills will be essential for their future. That is not least because we all know that, in the current world of work, people change jobs a lot and are not necessarily going to follow the same role for ever. Therefore, they need that basic requirement to support themselves into their future.
Lord Storey
I am grateful for the Minister’s reply, but how will these exceptions be decided? Will they have to have an education healthcare plan or will they be notified by the school? What will be the mechanism for exceptions?
Baroness Buscombe
The noble Lord raises a good question. I do not know the answer, so I will write to him on that.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I want to make sure that I understood what the noble Baroness said. Nobody would dispute that these young people should carry on learning English and maths—I certainly would not—but I would like clarification. Is the noble Baroness saying that if they still did not get a grade C, that would be a barrier to them undertaking an apprenticeship? We all agree on the importance being attached to the basic skills of literacy, numeracy and digital skills, but what if an individual did not achieve that, having made real and determined efforts? Suppose they managed only a D when they reached the age of 18, would that be a barrier to them undertaking an apprenticeship, assuming that the employer would be willing to take them on?
Baroness Buscombe
I hope that I can help the noble Lord, Lord Young. That would not be a barrier to an apprenticeship. We are saying that they would have to continue to study through the apprenticeship and stay in that process in order to receive their certification.
Lord Storey
That is very helpful. So it is not a barrier to them doing an apprenticeship but they would be studying for their GCSE maths at the same time. Would the family then be entitled to tax credits because the young person is studying maths?
Baroness Buscombe
The noble Lord, Lord Storey, makes an interesting point, but I certainly would not want to commit on that. Let me clarify: they would study and do these resits, as we have been calling them, through the apprenticeship process—they would do them at the same time.
I want to attempt to reply to my noble friend Lord Lucas, who asked what would happen if awarding organisations have business overseas. The answer is that the institute can grant a licence back to the awarding organisation for use of the qualification documents—in other words, for use abroad. If there is an existing qualification for an awarding organisation that is out of the institute’s scope then the institute holds no copyright on that.
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, for tabling Amendments 21 and 25. I appreciate why she has put forward these amendments, which would allow awarding organisations to retain ownership of the copyright of documents under the new reforms. However, with respect, I cannot agree to them for the following reasons.
First, the qualification is to be approved by the institute, so it is right that the institute is the ultimate owner of the copyright. This will ensure that it can carry out its functions, including awarding licences for the delivery of the qualifications. Also, as there are likely to be multiple contributors to each qualification, the amendments are likely to make it impractical for the institute to carry out its functions to approve the new qualification. All contributors are likely to want a say in matters that relate to their particular part of the qualification. The institute should have the final say if the qualification is to be approved by it.
Secondly, the amendments would be likely to stifle competition once the licence comes to an end. Those awarding organisations whose documents have been approved by the institute would be in a far stronger position than those who were unsuccessful to rebid for a licence. Of course, the authors of documents that make up a technical education qualification should decide whether to give their consent to the copyright being transferred to the institute before the qualification is approved. If they do not, the institute can remove that document from the qualification. That is provided for in the Bill: I draw the noble Baroness’s attention to the provisions in new Section A2DA which provide safeguards for both the institute and the awarding organisations.
Furthermore, awarding organisations do not have to submit a bid to the institute for the new approved qualifications if they do not like the arrangements offered. Under the reforms, it is expected that awarding organisations will go through a comprehensive procurement process before being granted a licence to deliver a qualification for an occupation or group.
Baroness Buscombe
I just want to reassure the noble Baroness that we absolutely understand that the market must be attractive for awarding organisations to operate—I wonder if that is what the noble Baroness wanted to touch on.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
Yes, that is the gist of it, but the question that both I and the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, raised was: what possible incentive is there for awarding organisations to put a whole lot of their expertise into developing materials towards qualifications if they will all be snaffled by the institute?
Baroness Buscombe
It is not a question of their being snaffled by the institute. This happens in other sectors where people develop something but the copyright is retained by someone else. It is not peculiar to this sector, a first in this area or unique. If we are to have a single organisation that is to retain and underpin the standards and quality which we all want, and have flexibility without compromising the students, it is really important that we have one body that retains the copyright: the institute.
I understand where the noble Baroness is coming from: people feel that because they have created the content, they should hang on to it. However, the point is that we are changing the system so that the copyright will be with the institute, but those who have created the copyright can bid, along with others, for the licence. It is clarifying for awarding organisations what part of copyright should be retained by whom.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I wonder whether we could have a meeting on the copyright issue, because I find what is proposed incredibly confusing, and I do not think I am the only one around the table who finds that. It would be helpful if we could see how this ends up being a win-win situation for the awarding organisations and the institute, because at the moment it seems to be lose-lose for the awarding organisations.
Baroness Buscombe
I am perfectly happy to have such a meeting between now and Report. I re-emphasise that the whole point of this is not to undermine those who produce the copyright but all part of developing a new ethos, so that the best can be retained and be consistent across the board for all those who bid for the licence for those qualifications. On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I am feeling very disoriented here. A Conservative Government are arguing for nationalisation and against competition while I am arguing for more civil servants. This is not where I expected to be. My noble friend did not answer my question about external qualifications, such as Cisco or CompTIA, being embedded within apprenticeships or FE qualifications. Am I right in assuming that the Government are quite content under those circumstances to have no copyright whatever over those qualifications?
Baroness Buscombe
Yes, that is right. It would be absolutely outside the scope of the Bill.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, this has been an interesting debate, with two completely separate discussions. On the issue of copyright, a meeting would be helpful. I am puzzled, because the Government are saying they would encourage those people who wish to bid for work to be innovative in the bids they put forward, but actually the reward for innovation is to be stuck in a competitive tendering exercise—and, by the way, at the end of the tendering period we will nick your ideas. That does not seem to be quite what we want. Surely we want some partnership here and some commitment from the private sector to commit to R&D and innovation, but they must have some share of the proceeds. The idea that they can get that back in the short tender period that is going to operate is, at the least, problematic.
It seems that the Government are relying on the institute to be the innovator and then to tender that out. Okay, if that is the way it is going to work then we should be explicitly told that, but I do not think they can have it both ways. It would be interesting to have that debate.
On Amendment 20, regarding resits, I take what the Minister has said—that many of those young people who resit their GCSE maths and English as a result of the new policy introduced in 2014 now have grade C —and that is a good thing. However, we know there are thousands and thousands of young people who resat but are never going to get their GCSE maths and English. My point is that this can be a very discouraging process for both students and teachers, and I am looking for a more imaginative approach. I acknowledge it is important that someone going into employment can add up and understand percentages and percentiles, but this does not necessarily mean they have reached the GCSE qualification.
Some clarification is required as there is a point I am not entirely clear on. Is it the case that for someone who goes on to an apprenticeship under the auspices of the institute and continues to resit, and can satisfy the employer at the end-point assessment, because they do not have their GCSE maths they are not going to be able to qualify as an apprentice? I may have got that wrong, so having a letter in response to that would be helpful—I am certain I have got it wrong because officials are telling me so.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
It is. I look forward to getting the letter. I think this has been an extremely useful debate, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“(b) about permission for the use of the DfE logo and standard wording on technical education certificates.”
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, we now move on to the question of certificates, which has been raised already this afternoon. There are quite a few questions to be asked about the institute’s power to issue technical education certificates. This is another significant proposal and was not canvased in the skills plan. The proposal potentially removes any continuing link between the awarding organisation and the qualification that it has produced.
The amendment seeks clarity on the relationship between the issuing of the proposed certificates and the qualification certificates issued by the awarding organisations. Will these technical education qualifications be alongside the awarding organisation certificate? The Minister said that employers would pay for this certificate. Does that mean that the submission for it would come from the employer, the training provider or the awarding body? What assessment has been made of the resources required by the institute to authenticate, print and send out the 3 million apprenticeship certificates to meet the government target? Will the institute require the addresses of all the candidates, or will they be sent to the employer or training provider to distribute?
Government issuing of certificates is not common procedure at qualification level in any other area of the education and training system and would appear to bestow unnecessary cost, duplication and complexity on the Department for Education and/or the institute. Would it not be simpler if the certificate issued by the awarding organisation also carried the logo of the institute or of the Department for Education? The amendment proposes the much simpler solution of adding the backing and status of the institute or DfE to a certificate which has already been validated, processed and issued. I beg to move.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
My Lords, I have added my name to this amendment, and the Labour Benches support the remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady Garden of Frognal. She has a great deal of experience in the field of technical qualifications, so I have little meaningful to add. In earlier debates on the Bill, I have said that I hope to see a situation develop which leads to a small and relatively focused group of technical education qualifications. GCSEs and A-levels are instantly and universally recognised and accepted; I want to see something similar for technical education certificates. The current plethora of qualifications means that too few are understood, far less valued, and that diminishes the hard work that young people put into gaining them. How dispiriting it must be to emerge successfully from the end-point assessment only to find that the qualification gained is not widely recognised or transferrable to other employers.
Allowing the use of the DfE logo and consistent wording would standardise the technical education certificates issued, make it clear that they are overseen by the Department for Education and thus have a value transferrable throughout England. That measure is long overdue.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 32. I am trying to follow up on Second Reading and make a couple of suggestions to the Government which I hope are helpful.
First, if they have got this system of issuing certificates, they should make sure that, at the same time, they get the ability to communicate with apprentices. If I were in government, I would use this as a means of making sure that quality was being delivered, by sending questionnaires out to apprentices as a means of improving the quality of apprenticeships by asking what needed to be done better, particularly by asking them a couple of years after their apprenticeship what, with the benefit of experience, might have been improved. I would also use it as a way of getting information with which to celebrate the schools that apprentices went to. Schools pay far too little attention to the apprentices they have educated, mostly because they do not know anything about them. With university it is there; it is easy; it happens immediately. Apprenticeship information is not gathered in the same way; it is not celebrated by schools or made available to them. There are lots of things that the Government could do on the back of having the ability to communicate and I encourage them to give themselves that.
Secondly—I am echoing what is being said in Amendment 31—let us give these young people something really worth having, something to which they can put their name. The point of GCSEs and A-levels is that they are recognised. If we are taking away the plethora of sometimes well-valued names that attach themselves to technical qualifications, let us create a name and be able to give young people some letters to put after their name, such as BA—I do not actually know what these letters should be, but they should be something that say that the young person has done this and have got the right to this. I am not a wordsmith to create this, but once they are not an apprentice they are nothing—they are a former apprentice; it is like being a former priest, something suspicious. We should give them something that celebrates what they have achieved, in the same way that we do for people who have followed the academic path.
Baroness Cohen of Pimlico
My Lords, I support both amendments. I add—and would venture to do so only in Committee—a private loop around the question of naming and how apprentices get to be made more important. On further consideration, I do not like the title of the Bill: “Technical Education” does not seem to cover it. I have no idea how this could be done, but I wonder whether we could consider changing the name of the Bill to the “Professional and Technical Education Bill”. Among the groups named in the Bill that will be considered are lawyers, accountants and other variants. We tend to refer to ourselves as professionals. It would cheer up apprentices in those fields no end to know that they were recognised as professionals. In fact it would cheer up apprentices generally if it was not just about a technical education, but about a professional one, indicating that they will be a professional in their field. I am thinking also of some of the nursing and auxiliary qualifications that would sound a lot better if they were named as the professional qualifications that in fact they are.
Lord Baker of Dorking
We are learning such a lot this evening, and it is really very interesting. Clearly, the Government are taking draconian measures—and perhaps they should—to clear out a vast number of technical qualifications. That would be the consequence of this particular Bill finding its way to the statute book.
As a result of the process of establishing, with the help of industry, standards and outcomes, the Institute for Apprentices might apparently come to the conclusion that one particular technical qualification, for example in plumbing, is best done by City & Guilds. That seems to be the purpose behind what we are doing in this part of the Bill. The other awarding bodies would presumably not think it worthwhile to attempt to replicate that and have another plumbing qualification that is different, because that is the one that has the real stamp of approval with the Institute for Apprentices. Presumably, someone who is apprenticed to be a plumber will actually work for that qualification and hopefully get it.
This is a different system from that which has operated so far, but it is authoritative. If it is so perfect, are the Government intending to do this at GCSEs? If this wonderful system of technical awards is developed, should it not also be done for maths, English, history, geography and French? If what the Government are going to do is so wonderful and perfect, why should one stop with just technical subjects? If they are really persuaded that they have the best system for determining the best qualification in a technical subject, surely they should be able to decide what the best is in maths. If you are going to standardise things to this level, it might be GCSEs that would be the most effective. We must try to appreciate how thorough and complete a transformation will occur as a result of this.
Baroness Donaghy
My Lords, I want to follow the important point made by the noble Lord, Lord Baker. At the beginning of the first day of Committee, I said I hoped at the end of this to have a clearer understanding of the organisational chart and who was responsible for what. The longer the discussion has gone on, the more I am clear that this will be, as the noble Lord, Lord Baker, said, a fairly draconian change, which may be for the better.
However, I offer a word of caution. Some of us have lived through the birth, life and death of the Council for National Academic Awards or CNAA, some of us through the B Ed, and some of us through the area training organisations. At one stage, one of my roles at the former Institute of Education was to look after 48 teacher training colleges, which were training 26,000 teachers. It had a central and, it has to be said, very bureaucratic system of recognition for teachers at the university to ensure that they were all of the right standard and that all the institutions were offering the right quality. I emphasise that we had a complex and inadequate system. In trying to do something which is much needed and replace one system with a better system, we should not make some of the mistakes that we have all made—all Governments have made them; I am not trying to make a party- political point—by creating a structure which turns out to be Frankenstein.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, I shall not make any general assertions of what may or may not happen. I take the “all is for the best in this best of all possible worlds” approach to this. However, is the institute going to issue an apprenticeship certificate? The schedule refers to the:
“Power to issue technical education certificate”.
We heard some examples of where there could be an apprenticeship without a technical qualification, so is the institute involved in that?
I want to address the point the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, made that on the completion of an apprenticeship there should be a stamp of approval, so that you have something to show. In the old days, you got a beautifully illuminated manuscript. I was not assuming that the Government would go that far, but I remember that the master bricklayer who lived across the road from me had an exceedingly impressive document from his apprenticeship. I am not expecting that but I want to know what this actually includes. Can we be assured that every apprentice, on completing their apprenticeship successfully, will get a certified stamp of approval?
Baroness Buscombe
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, and my noble friend Lord Lucas for tabling these amendments relating to certification. While I appreciate the intention behind the proposed changes I hope that after I have outlined my concerns, they will withdraw or not press these amendments.
The primary purpose of a technical education certificate is to enable individuals to demonstrate to employers that they have obtained the knowledge, skills and behaviours necessary to undertake their chosen occupation. Those completing either an apprenticeship or a technical education course will receive a nationally awarded certificate from the Secretary of State. This will confirm that they have attained as many of the key skills and behaviours as the institute has deemed appropriate for a particular occupation. To answer the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, the Secretary of State will issue the certificate but it will be branded by the institute. For a technical education certificate, this is likely to include confirmation of maths and English qualifications, successful completion of a work placement and other route-specific qualifications. This will provide clarity for employers and support the portability and progression value of the qualifications.
The organisation or consortium of organisations which the institute has approved to deliver the technical education qualification will, however, be entitled to issue its own certificate for that qualification. It is therefore right that responsibility for issuing technical education certificates should be retained by the Secretary of State. This will also ensure that certificates for technical education align as closely as possible with certificates for apprenticeships.
Amendment 31 would allow this function to be delegated to individual awarding organisations. To do so could lead to unequal status or recognition of the value of certificates. It is also right that the Secretary of State should be able to determine whether to charge for the initial technical education certificate or further copies and, if so, how much to charge. Likewise, it will be up to the organisation to decide whether and how much to charge for issuing a certificate confirming that an individual has successfully completed their qualification. I will come on to questions when I have finished speaking to Amendment 32.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I am grateful to the Minister for her reply and to all noble Lords who have spoken. As the noble Lord, Lord Baker, said, we have had some interesting discussions this afternoon on various aspects of the Bill.
I am not sure that my questions about certification were entirely answered. We had a lot of experience with this when NCVQ came in. I realise that my memory is longer than others’. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, some of us go back a bit too far. There was never any problem about putting that brand on the certificate along with BTEC or whatever else it was. Awarding bodies are quite used to having a national branding on their certificates alongside their own award. The Secretary of State is going to have his job cut out issuing all these certificates to people. I would be interested to see the detail of how that is going to happen. The duplication of certificates is not necessarily helpful and will not help employers.
I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Cohen, on getting her idea of “professional” at least agreed to be thought about. It would be something if we could add that word to the title of the Bill, because many of us are a bit concerned about its narrowness.
The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, brought up the business of post-nominal letters. When I worked for City & Guilds, I set up the senior awards department there, which was rationalising post-nominal letters for levels 4 to 7, some of which had been awarded for over 100 years. Because of the royal charter, we had to get Privy Council approval to do an additional one. It always struck me how much it meant, particularly to the level 4 people who got a licentiate award and could put the letters “LCGI” after their name. They often went into being small business people, and it raised their spirits and gave them status and standing to know that they could have LCGI after their name on their cards. I went on to get robes designed for them, but I am not suggesting that we do that for apprenticeships. Post-nominal letters are an issue. I am not sure how it would work with the institute to get approval for them, and I entirely take the Minister’s point that it can be more confusing to get a whole range of post-nominal letters that people do not understand. In our case, we were starting with 100 years of people having understood some of our City & Guilds post-nominal letters.
I am still baffled about quite how the mechanics of issuing all these certificates is going to happen and what the benefit is to the students and people who have succeeded in getting one certificate from the awarding body and a duplicate one from the Secretary of State, however prestigious that might be. I would welcome a little bit more clarity on quite how this is going to work but, for the moment, I beg leave to withdraw.
““40AA Sharing of information by or with the Institute(1) The Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education may disclose information to a relevant person for the purpose of a relevant function of that person.(2) For disclosure of information by the Institute for the purposes of its own functions, see paragraph 10 of Schedule A1.(3) A relevant person may disclose information to the Institute for the purpose of—(a) a function of the Institute, or(b) a relevant function of that person.(4) In this section “relevant person” means—(a) Ofqual,(b) the OfS,(c) Ofsted, or(d) a prescribed person.(5) In this section “relevant function” means—(a) in relation to Ofqual, the OfS or Ofsted, a function of that body, so far as the function relates to England;(b) in relation to a prescribed person, a prescribed function of that person, so far as the function relates to England.(6) In this section—“Ofqual” means the Office of Qualifications and Examinations Regulation;“OfS” means the Office for Students;“Ofsted” means—(a) the Office for Standards in Education, Children’s Services and Skills, and (b) Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Education, Children’s Services and Skills.(7) Regulations under this section prescribing functions of a person may prescribe all of the person’s functions.”
Lord Nash
My Lords, these government amendments will allow the Secretary of State to make sure that the data-sharing gateway in new Section 40AA remains fit for purpose through regulations. The regulations can include persons to whom the institute can disclose information or who can disclose information to the institute, and the functions about which the information may be disclosed. New Section 40AA will establish data-sharing gateways between the institute and Ofsted, Ofqual, the Office for Students or any other person set out in the regulations. There is already a separate provision for the institute to share information in relation to its own functions.
The bodies with which the institute is likely to need to co-operate and share information to do its job effectively are expected to change over time. That is particularly important given the reforms in higher and technical education. For example, the Quality Assurance Agency will not be named specifically in legislation and the quality arrangements in that area may change over time. It will be important to ensure that the institute can work effectively with whatever body is designated in that case, as well as any other bodies which take on roles in relation to education and training. All the disclosures under the gateways take precedence over any non-statutory restrictions, but they would be subject to all the important safeguards in the Data Protection Act 1998.
I reassure noble Lords that I am, however, absolutely mindful of the need to ensure full parliamentary scrutiny each time the Section 40AA power is used. Although not common in relation to similar regulations, where the negative procedure will be used, it is proposed that these regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure. In view of this, I hope that noble Lords will accept this amendment.
Lord Lucas
Will the DfE be able to access this data, for instance to try to understand what history at school leads to what sort of performance in technical qualifications and apprenticeships?
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
My Lords, I welcome these amendments and want to say just a brief word about them, and in particular about Amendment 33.
On Report in another place Labour raised the issue of introducing the Quality Assurance Agency as a body to whom the institute can communicate information. The Minister, Mr Halfon, resisted at that time, saying that it depended on developments in the Higher Education and Research Bill. That Bill is still under way, but things have clearly moved on and the Minister has had second thoughts because we are pleased to hear that the Government now want to empower the institute to exchange information with all bodies with which it might need to do business, apparently without worrying about data protection legislation.
I would like one point of clarification on that. The amendment to Schedule 1 refers to “a relevant person” —we understand that a “person” is an organisation—and lists Ofqual, the OfS and Ofsted and then “a prescribed person”. The Quality Assurance Agency would be a prescribed person. When the Minister replies, will he specify the difference between somebody who is “relevant” and somebody who is “prescribed”? Presumably a prescribed person is not irrelevant but is not relevant.
The Minister and his colleagues are adopting the Opposition’s wider view of the role of the institute. Will he say which persons or bodies he and his colleagues have in mind to add, apart from the QAA, to which he referred? An obvious one is local government which can provide a bridge between school education and the world of work. Local government still retains various statutory duties for 16 to 18 year-olds, including duties under the Education Act 1996 in respect of ensuring education and training for persons over compulsory school age and of encouraging employers to participate in the provision of education and training for young people. The Minister may be aware that local authorities have duties in respect of young people with special educational needs and disabilities for whom the local authority maintains an education, health and care plan and for care leavers up to the age of 25. I should have said the Minister will be aware; it is a bit unfair to say he may be.
I also note that government Amendments 48 to 54, which we shall consider on Wednesday, make the local authority director of children’s services a person who must be informed about the insolvency of an FE college because, according to the Government’s explanation, such colleges will be educating care leavers, and the local authority needs to know to ensure that the local authority–appointed personal advisers to the care leavers know of the insolvency.
There are numerous reasons for local government to be involved. Perhaps the Minister will make a statement—I will be perfectly happy for it to be on Wednesday—about the anticipated roles of the local authority and the institute and how they will interact.
Lord Nash
If I may answer my noble friend Lord Lucas’s point, the answer is yes under a separate provision in the Bill. On the point about the difference between relevant and prescribed, a prescribed person is somebody set out in regulations and a relevant person is set out in the Bill or in regulations.
“27A In section 40D(3)(interpretation of Part 1A)—(a) the words from “affects” to the end become paragraph (a);(b) after that paragraph insert— “(b) authorises the disclosure of any information in contravention of any provision made by or under any Act which prevents disclosure of the information.””
“29A In section 262(6)(orders and regulations subject to affirmative procedure), after paragraph (aa) insert—“(aza) regulations under section 40AA;”.”
“Records etc
(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision for or in connection with—(a) the delivery to the registrar of companies of documents that relate to the insolvency of further education bodies;(b) the registrar’s function of keeping records of information contained in such documents under section 1080(1) of the Companies Act 2006;(c) the publication of, or access to, those records or related information.(2) The regulations may, in particular, provide for any provision made by or under the following sections of the Companies Act 2006 to apply (with or without modifications) in relation to those documents or records.
Provision of Companies Act 2006 | Description |
sections 29 and 30 | copies of resolutions etc to be forwarded to the registrar |
section 859K | registration of enforcement of security |
sections 1077 and 1079 | public notice of receipt of certain documents |
sections 1081, 1084 and 1085 to 1091 | keeping and inspection of register of companies |
sections 1093 to 1097 | correction or removal of material on companies register |
section 1104 | documents relating to Welsh companies |
sections 1112 to 1113 | supplementary provisions |
Lord Nash
My Lords, we have tabled this amendment to ensure that should an FE body become insolvent, there will be an accessible public record of documents relevant to the insolvency procedure for that body. FE bodies that are statutory corporations are exempt charities and not companies. As such, they are not subject to filing requirements with any particular regulatory body, although they are required to keep audited accounts and to publish them, for example on their websites.
When the Bill was originally drafted, it was thought that we could rely upon certain provisions of the Companies Act 2006 so that an insolvency practitioner could file documents required by the court as part of any insolvency procedure, including education administration. However, it is now clear that specific provision is needed within the Bill to ensure that an accessible and workable file for insolvent FE bodies may be created and managed by the registrar. This amendment therefore creates a new clause to provide for exactly that and allows the Secretary of State to make regulations relating to the delivery of documents about the insolvency of FE bodies to the registrar, about the registrar’s function of keeping records of information within those documents and about the publication of and public access to such records or information.
The power in the new clause also allows the Secretary of State to permit the Registrar of Companies to make rules relating to filing requirements, such as about the form of documents to be filed. As I hope the Committee will appreciate, this amendment is necessary to permit the paperwork of an insolvency procedure for an FE body to be properly managed. I beg to move that this amendment be accepted and that the new clause stand part of the Bill.
Technical and Further Education Bill
Wednesday 1st March 2017
(7 years, 8 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Technical and Further Education Act 2017 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 88-III(a) Amendment for Grand Committee, supplementary to the third marshalled list (PDF, 54KB) - (28 Feb 2017)
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)
Welcome, my Lords, to the third day of Grand Committee on the Technical and Further Education Bill. I should announce at the start that in the very likely event of there being a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committee will adjourn as soon as the Division Bells are rung and resume after 10 minutes.
“( ) minimise the risk to a local community of a long-term loss of technical and further education provision.”
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)
My Lords, it is a pleasure to appear in the Committee. I have been present on various occasions during the first two sittings, but I have not been able to find an issue on which I wanted to speak; therefore I come with my powder dry.
We have no argument of substance on this part of the Bill, because we understand what is happening. It is essentially a good housekeeping measure, rather than a threat to any existing or future institutions. It arises from two sources. First, there is a proper and appropriate sense of wanting to ensure that in any default situation, such as liquidation or insolvency, a process is in place and all the major players know what happens and how. It also comes from a wider consideration of how public services are procured and delivered.
In the good old days, as some might say—I say it in heavy quotes—public provision of such services as further education, but including utilities more generally, would always have the underlying assumption that the Government of the day would carry any debts incurred. Of course, that does not happen under privatisation—there is no particular reason why it should—but the responsibility for continuing work that is in the public interest still has to be resolved. That is why, over the past 25 to 30 years, there has been a growth in special regimes for insolvency. They are not unusual. They are broadly all of the same pattern. That is unsurprising as they come from one cutting shop: the Insolvency Service. They carry a common approach: they are instituted to ensure that, where it is appropriate and necessary, it is possible to intervene in the ordinary processes of insolvency or voluntary liquidation to the extent to which it is thought proper that the purposes for which the service exists are maintained, to ensure that those who are relying on it or have made it part of their lives in good faith are not let down by any cost-cutting arrangement.
Having said all that, we have tabled some probing amendments, to which I hope that we will get good responses on the record. Nothing will be unexpected—much of it came up in the other place—but we have learned a bit more about how the system operates, so there may be a slightly sharper focus.
I move Amendment 37 and speak to Amendments 38 and 39. This first group focuses on the education administrator, who is the person to be appointed by the court—the courts can act only on the request of the Secretary of State in England or Wales, depending on which territory they are in—and, if appointed, has responsibilities which will be set out both in the Bill and the broader range of insolvency legislation alluded to in the primary legislation; I expect that regulations to follow will fill in any gaps. We are not at variance with the Government in proposing that the system applies, although there will be things that we want to probe later.
The purpose of these three amendments, taken together, is on the question of whether we have got the right person to do this work. We have not seen many colleges go into liquidation or insolvency, which is a good thing. We were reassured in another place—so we do not expect it—that nothing in the Bill should be read as taken to imply that the Government have in mind a raft of closures. On the other hand it is fair to ask the Minister, when he comes to respond, to help us a little about what the context is for this.
The figures provided by the Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills in the other place were slightly obscure. He said that,
“80% of colleges are either good or outstanding”,
and that some,
“59% of institutions are in good financial health and 52% are operating with a surplus”.—[Official Report, Commons, 14/11/16; col. 80.]
One can of course read that the other way round: you could say that 48% are not operating with a surplus and that a situation may therefore arise which we are not fully apprised of. The Minister might wish to comment on that. I do not necessarily see that as an issue and, if he wishes to take time to write to us, we would be happy with that.
The context is also a little more complex, in the sense that we are well aware that there is a more general decline in further education. The ongoing work of the area reviews may or may not lead to closure as a result of mergers. Mergers cannot be imposed on the system but if the system wanted to do that and if a particular college was weaker, we may find this issue in front of us in a relatively short time. The procedures therefore obviously need to be right but, if the Minister could say a little more in that context about his perception from the centre of whether a number of closures will arise from the area reviews, that would obviously be interesting. We do not know of any and are aware that work is going on but some sense of that, if not the actual detailed numbers, would be helpful.
In the other place, the Minister was pressed a little about the context of what I have been saying. He came out with a nice rubric when he said that Part 2 of the Bill was,
“about protection, insurance, prudence and caution”.—[Official Report, Commons, Technical and Further Education Bill Committee, 29/11/16; col. 166.]
He was not picked up about that list of words. It does not quite have the ring of an aphorism about it but it is an interesting list. Would the Minister like to reflect on whether that is his reading of the situation? I take it slightly differently: I think this is a prudent, sensible and cautionary approach, as I do not see any red lights arising from it and gleaming in the dark that would cause us to have difficulty, and that the issues are appropriate. Those are the general questions.
On the questions raised by the amendments, Amendment 37 questions whether we are right in assuming that, at present, the Bill tends to focus the attention in relation to colleges and their continuation on a systemic approach. That was slightly picked up by the area reviews as well, in looking at the holistic approach to an area, although from the bottom up—in other words, from the locality—FE colleges are often seen as important bulwarks of local community activity. Particularly in rural areas and areas of lower density, they can provide a centre not just of education and training but for other activities, so there is a wider context for this. Amendment 37 asks that the education administration system, particularly the education administrator, should, in addition to the list in the Bill, take in the need to,
“minimise the risk to a local community of a long-term loss of technical and further education provision”.
That will be an important issue for many areas and I will be interested to see the response.
Amendment 38 would give more detail than is currently in the Bill about the consultations, discussions and debates that must take place before the education administrator takes forward the proposals that may come to it. We will obviously come to a wider view about this in the next group. This would include the “quality of education provided”, the capacity of other bodies or institutions and,
“the infrastructure of the local area”—
again, the reference is to local rather than national issues. An issue that came up strongly in discussions in the other place was of how students, many of whom will be relatively young, will function if they have to add a significant transport arrangement to their other education requirements. How exactly does that fit in with some of the overarching issues we will come on to, in relation to the balance between maintaining a provision in a place and the need to provide local services and community support in that area, as opposed to the needs of the students in terms of the qualifications they are trying to obtain, which might be better dealt with in another college, perhaps a couple of hours’ travel away? One can see the impact that would have in terms of community, and on the individual. A slightly more detailed list, as in Amendment 38, may be overprescriptive but the intention is to make sure that wider consideration than a simple binary question—open or shut—should face the education administrator.
Thirdly, on Amendment 39, the question is of who should be consulted. There is obviously an expectation, and comforting words were given in the other place when this issue was discussed. However, we have tabled an amendment that specifies that the students in particular—they are often omitted in these considerations —should be consulted, and that staff and recognised unions at the body concerned should also be included.
Lord Storey (LD)
Given that insolvency is a major part of the Bill, many of us were concerned that there might be something hidden that we did not appreciate or understand, which is perhaps unusual. I thank the civil servants. I hate that term. They are civil; they should not be servants. My noble friend Lady Garden and I met them yesterday to talk about insolvency, and I came away very reassured. Actually, I almost did an about-turn and felt that further education was protected in many respects.
The amendments are right. I do not foresee FE colleges becoming insolvent, because the new measures protect them in a more robust way than currently. During the area reviews, there has been a safety blanket. When they are finished and the new regime comes into place, it will be a much better landscape for FE to operate in. Having said that, in the 0.001% where something happens, it is right to point out that students need to be considered, as do the community and the staff. That is particularly so in rural areas. If a college goes in a rural area, the loss of it and its courses can be devastating to its students.
I will go along with it but I am never quite sure about “consultation”. Of course one can consult. If in the new landscape a college is on the road to insolvency, presumably we would pick that up pretty early on. It would not be a case of its suddenly being insolvent—“By the way, we’re closing down and we’d better consult students and staff”. We would see the process happening gradually. Any well-managed system would of course consult those bodies. When I see “consultation”, I always ask how we will consult. Is it a tick-box exercise, or a letter to everybody? When we have done the consultation what do we do with that information, or is it just, “It looks good so we’ll say it”? I understand the thought behind the amendment, however.
These amendments are okay. I am just beginning to understand the Government’s desire—I am pleased about it—that, under the new combined authorities regime, combined authorities will be involved in the adult education part of further education. I do not yet understand how that happens in practice as well as principle. I have been involved in a couple of emails about that, but I would like to understand it before Report. Having said that, I am happy with the amendments and I guess we will support them.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Lord Nash) (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Watson and Lord Hunt, for these three amendments, to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for his remarks supporting them and to the noble Lord, Lord Storey, for his comments.
These amendments relate to assessing the impact of the proposed insolvency regime on further education colleges. Before I deal with individual amendments, I shall respond to some of the general points made by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and if I do not cover them all I will certainly write to him. Following the area reviews, all colleges should be on a sound financial footing for the longer term. That is part of the reason behind the area reviews. These measures will not come into force until after the recommendations of the area reviews have been implemented. There will be no closures as a result of the reviews. Colleges are working together to remove overcapacity in their area and to better align their offer to local employers’ needs. Some colleges may merge as a result, but there will be no insolvencies as a direct result of the reviews.
I believe that Amendment 37 is intended to ensure that the special objective offers protection not only to existing students of an insolvent college but to those of the future. In that regard, noble Lords and I share common ground. Indeed, that is the purpose of our programme of area reviews. We are working with colleges, local authorities and other local stakeholders to ensure that FE bodies are put on a strong and resilient footing. This is the best way to safeguard the interests of all students. Delivering strong, sustainable colleges that can provide young people now and in the future with the opportunity to pursue courses right for them will offer them the opportunity to achieve their full potential.
In the unlikely event that an FE body were to become insolvent, our first priority would, rightly, be to the existing students, whose studies are likely to be directly affected. That is the purpose of the special objective. While we cannot know how the education administrator will propose to achieve the special objective in every insolvency, as that will clearly depend on the circumstances of each case, it seems likely that the preferred solution would be to find an alternative provider to take over provision at the insolvent body’s campus. That would almost certainly prove least disruptive for the students involved. However, that may not be possible or the right outcome. It might ultimately be better for existing and future students to attend other colleges where they may have access to a greater choice of course, better facilities and the like.
I recognise noble Lords’ concern that moving to a different provider might mean travelling greater distances, with a consequent increase in travel costs. While many students would be willing to travel to access the right provision—a point the FE commissioner made when he gave evidence to the Committee in the other place—there will be those for whom this would be a challenge. Colleges are already able to provide financial support to help eligible students with their travel costs, and this will extend to students transferring in from an insolvent college. In addition, the education administrator may be able to make provision for such costs where it is for the purpose of pursuing the special objective.
There is the possibility that a college that is the only FE provider in the wider area may become insolvent; for example, in a rural area such as Devon or Cornwall. Were that to happen, I assure noble Lords that the Government could not and would not ignore their wider responsibility to students in the area. No Government would leave an area without any FE provision. However, this is a matter for the Government of the day to consider, not the education administrator.
I shall now respond to Amendment 38. Clause 14 sets out the fundamental principle underpinning the special administration regime we are introducing in the Bill. In the unlikely—I must emphasise “unlikely”—event that an FE body becomes insolvent, we are acting to ensure that disruption to students’ studies is avoided or minimised as far as possible. That is the purpose of the special objective set out in subsection (1). Pursuit of that objective will govern all the actions of the education administrator. It will be for the education administrator to decide how the special objective can best be achieved. Whether it is one of the solutions suggested in subsection (2), a combination of them or something different will depend on the special circumstances of the college or FE body. Only by considering these issues will the education administrator be in a position to come to a view on the most appropriate approach. As we all know, something that might be right in one situation will not necessarily be right in another, so, in a way, I agree with Amendment 38. Noble Lords are right that there are a number of assessments that the education administrator should carry out before taking any action to achieve the special objective, including assessments of the capacity of other bodies or institutions to undertake any additional functions or provide education to additional students.
Noble Lords are right, too, that there should be discussion with those most directly affected by the decisions to be taken—the students, the staff and their unions. Where I think we differ is that I do not believe such assessments or discussions need to be prescribed in legislation. As my colleague the Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills said when this matter was debated in the other place:
“It is inconceivable that they,”
by which he meant the education administrator,
“would draw up proposals for achieving the special objective without having had discussions with a wide range of stakeholders, such as the Further Education Commissioner, student bodies and others, and without considering a wide range of pertinent issues”.—[Official Report, Commons, 9/1/17; col. 113.]
I wholeheartedly share this view. As the Minister made clear in the other place—and I do here today—it is our clear expectation that the education administrator will engage fully with those who have the knowledge and experience to aid them in developing their proposals: the commissioner, staff and students, local authorities and other providers.
When we refer to avoiding or minimising disruption to student studies, this is not just about keeping students’ timetables unchanged or ensuring that they remain at the same campus—although, in reality, this might well be the case. It is also about ensuring that where it is necessary to transfer students, factors such as those identified by noble Lords are taken into consideration. In developing their proposals, the education administrator will be expected to consider the quality of the alternative provision, as well as the impact of travel distances if students need to complete their studies at another location.
Of course, some trade-off or compromise between the different factors might be necessary, but this will be for the education administrator to address in the particular circumstances. If students find themselves having to travel to another location, I recognise that they may incur additional travel costs. Where this is the case they may be eligible, as I have said, for the 16-to-19 bursary fund, or the education administrator may consider setting up a specific scheme for them paid for by from any funding provided by the Secretary of State or Welsh Ministers.
I turn now to Amendment 39. In developing the special administration regime we have been concerned to ensure that the process should take no longer than necessary. Concerns have previously been expressed, including during debate in the other place, about the time a special administration might take. I share these concerns. However speedily the special administration is concluded, it will be too long for those involved. Staff, students and creditors will want certainty about what will happen to them at the earliest opportunity. Amendment 39, which seeks to require the education administrator to consult students, staff and the trade unions of the FE body before making any decisions on how to achieve the special objective, would inevitably lengthen the process but would be unlikely in reality to have any real benefit to the education administrator. Indeed, it may fetter his or her discretion to find the best way of achieving the special objective to the disadvantage of all concerned.
We are not disputing that the issues raised by noble Lords are important. They are. But, as I hope I have made clear, they cannot help but constitute a major element of the education administrator’s considerations in developing his or her proposals and there is therefore no need to legislate in this case. I hope the noble Lord will feel reassured enough by my explanations to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Storey, for his support for these amendments and his comments about what we are trying to achieve with them. I think that those were picked up by the Minister, and I thank him too for taking the time to go through some of the issues and recognise that they had a bearing on this, should insolvency happen. The fact that these words are now on the record is a very good thing.
We particularly recognise that where provision has to be provided at a distance under special measures, travel will become a material issue. Confirmation again that costs could be considered within that is very important. We accept that it would be wrong to tie the hands of the education administrator if, by having a list in the Bill, damage was done to how he or she approaches his or her work. I do not think that that was the intention, but I recognise the danger. The issues were engaged with by the Minister and were recorded in Hansard, which will be sufficient to ensure that these points are not ignored at the appropriate time.
We might want to come back to the question of how and on what basis the comparison between the provision made in one institution that might have to close and another will be done in practice, but that comes under the next group of amendments. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, the amendments in this group are rather unfortunately grouped together, as there are two issues. I will take them in a slightly odd order to bring out the points. I hope that will make it easier to engage when the debate starts.
Amendment 40 is again about the education administrator. The point that we ended the last group on is the question of whether that person would have sufficient relevance, experience and knowledge of the further education sector. Those persons who have responsibility for doing insolvencies and wind-ups are usually accountants, who are the butt of staple jokes about vision, intelligence and depth of understanding. Of course, I am an accountant, so I can say all these things. On the other hand, it is fair to say that the judgments that the person responsible for a special education administration system are going to have to make will rather stretch that stereotyped approach, because effectively that person will take over the responsibilities of running an FE college with thousands of students and making decisions that will affect thousands of lives on a longer-term basis.
There are some big issues here. Given the fact that I know one or two insolvency practitioners, it would be a stretch to expect that group to be expanded in a short enough time to include people with experience. In the unlikely event that we have a rash of these insolvencies, experience will surely be increased and the problem will solve itself. But there is a gap here: No particular solutions come to mind, but the question will continue through our discussions today about how the expertise necessary to make some of those judgments will be gained.
Other amendments in this group, particularly Amendment 44, suggest that it may be necessary to make sure, in regulations if not in the Bill, that the person appointed as the education administrator has access without bar or hindrance—certainly no barrier should be put in place—to receiving the sort of advice that will be required to make the decisions that they will need to make in running an FE college. The proposal in Amendment 44 that the,
“education administrator may, in performing … functions … request information, advice or guidance from practitioners with an understanding of education”,
is meant in a permissive and encouraging way, rather than as a statutory duty. Nevertheless, the point is well made, and I look forward to hearing what the Minister says.
The meat of this group is in Amendments 42, 43 and 46A. That last amendment is a late addition, because I realised in preparing for the Committee that we could not get to the point without an additional amendment. I apologise for the late tabling of it. The scheme that we are talking about can come into existence only when the Secretary of State decides that it will do so, and only with the permission of the court, so there are already two steps in the process for a college that is going into insolvency, for which there will be checks, balances, discussions and debates, and some context will be provided. I am sure that that is an appropriate and effective way of going forward. But with the appointment of the education administrator comes the next stage in the process; that person will take over the responsibilities previously held by the owners of the operation and will have to deal day to day with the problems of running the college as they go forward.
I would be interested to know whether any work has been done for the Government on roughly what proportion of the insolvencies or liquidations it is expected will go into special administration as opposed to the normal routes, because the law already provides for companies that operate many activities, one of which would be education, to go insolvent or become bankrupt. There is a process under which that operates. We would not expect it to operate in many cases because it is a fairly brutal process.
Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)
My Lords, I support these amendments. It probably is important that any education administrator should be familiar with further education because it is a very distinct type of education. I have a question that I would like the Minister to clarify. Clause 22(4), which it is now proposed to delete, indicates that the administrator must,
“carry out his or her functions in a way that achieves the best result for … the company’s creditors as a whole”,
yet Clause 14 says that the primary,
“objective of an education administration is to … avoid or minimise disruption to the studies of the … students”.
There seems to be a slight contradiction here regarding whether the education administrator is going to put students or creditors first. I accept what the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, that perhaps the problem is with creditors: if they feel they are going to be last in line to get paid back, that might make more problems for colleges in getting funding. Can the Minister perhaps clarify the apparent contradiction between those two clauses?
Baroness Cohen of Pimlico (Lab)
I generally support the amendments. I started from a very particular consideration: I wondered whether I would be prepared to be an education administration person, because I think I am qualified to be so. The first thing I would want to know is where my financial backing was. The first thing I would ask for would be a guarantee that I would not end up personally liable, as under normal insolvency law I would be. I would need a back-up. The problem here, as with all public sector bodies—I have been through this before when we were thinking about what to do about a failing nationalised industry—is that if the Government are the guarantor or provider of last resort, the creditors will be perfectly happy but I am not quite certain how the education administrator gets out of it. I do not think I would be prepared to be an education administrator without an underwriting behind me. Mere appointment by a court would not do it for me. Have the Government thought about this bit?
Baroness Buscombe (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords who have put their names to this group of amendments. I shall begin with Amendments 40 and 44. I realise that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, also referenced Amendment 46A, regarding creditors. I will get to that but if he and other noble Lords could bear with me, it would be rather easier if I could do this sequentially.
On Amendments 40 and 44, then, as is the case with other special administration regimes, Clause 15 provides that the person to be appointed as the education administrator must be someone who is qualified to act as an insolvency practitioner in relation to the FE body. This is the only criterion that must be satisfied for appointment as an education administrator.
Amendment 40, however, would require the person appointed as the education administrator to have relevant experience and knowledge of the further education sector, as noble Lords have said, in addition to being qualified to act as an insolvency practitioner. Saving the blushes of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, he is a very good example of accountants who have a breadth of perspective—indeed, I should declare an interest as I am married to an accountant who has a fantastic breadth of perspective—so we should not underestimate their ability to address different sectors with the same amount of expertise.
While such experience may be desirable, it is certainly not essential. Noble Lords familiar with the company insolvency regime will know that insolvency practitioners are often appointed to administer companies in sectors where they have little or no experience. That does not prevent them carrying out their duties successfully; it is their ability to understand and apply the different options available to them in the insolvency toolkit that is of most importance, not a detailed knowledge of the sector or the company. It is no different in an education administration.
In his evidence to the Committee in another place Mr Stephen Harris, an experienced insolvency practitioner with Ernst & Young, said that:
“From an insolvency practitioner’s perspective, it is worth standing back and recognising that insolvency practitioners are not train drivers, or people who spend their life in the railway or the London Underground, when it comes to a special administration regime, nor are they specialist property developers. They come to each situation afresh. One comforting thing that insolvency practitioners bring is recognising when they need to keep in place the existing management structure in a corporate sense, or the workforce in a pastoral sense, recognising that those people have skills and qualifications that they as an office holder do not necessarily have, and also”—
this is key—in bringing,
“outside specialist help to continuing the duties of education administrator should the need arise. That is … part and parcel of any trading insolvency regime”.—[Official Report, Commons, Technical and Further Education Bill Committee, 22/11/16; col. 46.]
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
What has just been said is true and I understand exactly where the Minister is coming from but, in a sense, she is talking about traditional creditor-led insolvency. That is not what we are talking about. As I am an accountant with a broad vision, I can extend to make the point that we are talking about replacing a board of governors, with expertise from all around the table, a senior management team, heads of departments, lecturers, a whole panoply of technical and support workers and everything else with one person, and that person is not doing the day job. The day job is getting the creditors into a room and banging their heads together until they settle for 10% or about that level, and then going away. This is about running an institution, perhaps for a long period and on a very complicated basis. It is not quite the same.
Baroness Buscombe
I accept the point, but I re-emphasise therefore the importance of that person bringing in outside expertise to support them in the process. I also ought to make the practical point that we would be hard pressed to find many insolvency practitioners who had this expertise as a matter of course. Maybe there are one or two, but I do not know how many.
Mr Harris rightly made the point that the education administrator is similar to all the other special administrator roles, and I share his view. It is not necessary for the education administrator to have direct experience and knowledge of the education sector, but I expect—indeed, I am sure that we all expect—the education administrator to avail themselves of the advice and guidance of those around them. I am being a little repetitive, but this is an important point. I mean not only the management team and staff of the insolvent college but the governors, the further education commissioner, the local authorities and others. Indeed, I cannot conceive of a situation where an education administrator would act in isolation, developing their proposals for meeting the special objective and protecting students without first discussing them with a wide range of stakeholders.
Amendment 44 provides that the education administrator should be able to request information, advice and guidance from those with an understanding of education in performing their functions for the purposes of achieving the special objective. I wholly agree with the purpose of this amendment. Of course it will be important for the education administrator to take advice from experts in the sector in carrying out their functions. As I said, this is precisely how we expect the education administrator to operate. The leadership team in the further education body will be in place to provide support on the day-to-day running of the college and to provide information to assist the education administrator in their task of achieving the special objective, if possible. So too will the further education and sixth-form commissioners and their teams, as well as the officials in the Minister’s department. The education administrator will of course be free to seek advice from any other source that they may consider. We therefore believe that there is no need to provide in the Bill for something which the education administrator is free—and encouraged—to do.
I would make the point, as I often do in situations like this, that we want to be careful not to be too prescriptive in primary legislation, particularly when the Bill, as I said on Monday, really sets out a framework for how these processes should be managed. We do not want to be too prescriptive up front. I want to respond to a number of issues but I shall leave them until I have finished replying to this group of amendments, to be clear that I can cover everything that noble Lords have asked of me.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I am still slightly confused about how what the Minister says is squared with Clause 22(5) which says that the education administrator must,
“carry out his or her functions in a way that achieves the best result for—
(a) the company’s creditors as a whole”,
That does not seem consistent with what she is saying about the emphasis on the students.
Baroness Buscombe
I did actually reference this while the noble Baroness was talking to a colleague. There is no contradiction. As I said about five minutes ago, the creditors’ objective is secondary and subject to the special objective of protecting students’ studies. Only when it is consistent with the special objective does the education administrator have regard to creditors’ needs. This reflects normal insolvency procedure. It is right that the education administrator has regard to creditors’ needs. I hope this is helpful.
Baroness Cohen of Pimlico
May I have another go at this point? In the days when I was a civil servant, a bust company would arrive on the doorstep of the Minister. Since it was in the Industry Act that we had the power, and indeed a duty, to preserve jobs, the administrator would usually ask us, “How far do you want to go? I can keep this company going for another five weeks, while we look for a buyer, but I want an underwrite. My client, the bank, is not interested. It is going to close this company”. There is the same problem here. Who authorises the administrator to go on putting the students’ interests first and to what end? The legislation is clear: the administrator puts the students’ interests first and tries to get a satisfactory answer. After two months, it becomes clear that nobody wants these students, nor this institution. I would not start out as the administrator without having a pretty clear view of what I had to do, when I was asked to stop and to whom I should go back and say, “This one is not going to work. May I now go back and satisfy the creditors?”. The process is worrying me. The words are all right, but I do not understand the process. I am sure we would all prefer not to have the process tested in practice, as it were, and have it come unglued there.
Baroness Buscombe
I am clutching a response to the noble Baroness’s earlier question which is on point. Clauses 26 and 28 allow the Secretary of State to provide the education administrator with indemnities or guarantees where that is necessary or appropriate. The education administrator will be able to apply to be discharged from office when they believe that they have achieved the special objective.
It may also help if I move on to Amendment 46A which specifically references creditors. Although we share common ground in our commitment to ensuring that if a further education body were to become insolvent, students would be placed at the heart of the subsequent administration process through the special objective, we do not share common ground here.
Clause 5 applies existing company insolvency law to further education colleges. The long-standing insolvency regime ensures that the interests of creditors are protected when a company becomes insolvent. Without such protection, lenders would rightly change their lending behaviours, such as by imposing higher interest rates and lending lower amounts. Other businesses would also become more cautious in trading with companies they perceived to be at risk of failing. This would ultimately paralyse growth. The same is true of the further education sector. So, while we are all agreed that there is a need to protect students’ studies—and that is the purpose of the special administration regime—there is also a need to have regard to the interests of creditors.
Through the special administration regime, we are rightly placing the protection of students’ studies ahead of the interests of creditors. However, as I said, this does not mean that the interests of creditors can, or should, be ignored. That would undoubtedly damage the further education sector, and I am sure that colleges themselves would be opposed to such action.
Subsections (4) and (5) make clear, therefore, that where the education administrator has a choice between courses of action that equally meet the special objective and protect students, they must follow the approach which achieves the best result for creditors and, where the college is run by a company, the company’s members. This delivers both protection for student studies and the reassurance that creditors, particularly lenders, need to ensure that the further education sector continues to be able to grow and improve to meet the needs of young people.
I want to respond to questions about the banks. Gareth Jones of Santander said:
“Overall, from our perspective, we are still very supportive of the sector—still looking to grow our exposure to the sector and grow our lending book. On the Bill and the proposed insolvency regime, we are actually supportive of the clarity that they provide”—[Official Report, Commons, Technical and Further Education Bill Committee, 22/11/16; col. 38.]
I was asked whether we are afraid that commercial debt will dry up for colleges as banks reassess their risk profiles, which is a critical point. The answer is no. Banks make lending decisions based on many considerations, and of course we expect them to reassess the risk profile of the sector now that exceptional financial support will no longer be available, but we expect them to continue to lend, particularly in light of the good work being done through the area review to build financially stable and resilient colleges. If this means a careful assessment of an individual college, its business plan and management, that is a good thing.
I hope that I have been able to answer all noble Lords’ questions on this group of amendments. If not, I will be happy to write to noble Lords but, on the basis of what I have been able to say this afternoon, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I thank those who have spoken in the debate for their questions, which are at the heart of the issues we raised. As I said at the beginning, this is a group in two parts. The questions about the individual appointed were well answered by the Minister; I am happy on that. There is a big task here. While it is true that the Bill says that the education administrator would be appointed only if they have the capacity to do the work, experience may well be lacking. We may be in difficulty there. On the other hand, I also made the point that we are talking about a specialist area in which there may be some growth in expertise that will allow us to get through that.
The noble Baroness, Lady Garden, and my noble friend Lady Cohen made points about how we balance the issues in the special administration system between the ongoing requirements of the students, the priority given them in the Bill and the rather odd words that appear in Clause 22. They which relate to a subset, not all of the groups in FE—I take that point—but they nevertheless imply, on a casual reading, that creditors will not be significantly disadvantaged in the long run because the function of the administration is to be carried out in a way that achieves the best results for the company’s creditors as a whole and, subject to that, the company’s members: its shareholders or shareholder equivalents.
I do not think there is an answer to this across the table. It might be sensible to have a meeting. The noble Lord, Lord Storey, said that he had a good briefing from officials; I did not have that chance. Perhaps if I could have a relatively short meeting on some of the technical issues here. That might be helpful in trying to tease this out. I do not think we are far apart on this. It is difficult. A bit of reassurance is required and, if the experience of the noble Lord, Lord Storey, is anything to go by, that might be helpful. In the interim, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“( ) suspend the Office for Students' protection action for students.”
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
This should be relatively quick. Clause 18 contains a list of measures to be taken under the power of the court on hearing an initial application—presumably for the purposes of clearing the ground so that the individual who is appointed educational administrator has a narrower process. The list under subsection (2) includes restricting the power of the education body and clarifies that where the education body has a different corporate form, it can also be intervened on to make the work required of the special administrator easier. We thought that the list in Clause 18 (2) was a bit narrow. This probing amendment is to explore that, and I look forward to hearing the Minister on this point.
Lord Nash
My Lords, we have seen from our recent scrutiny of the Higher Education and Research Bill that it includes provisions to ensure that those undertaking higher education courses are able to continue their learning and are protected if their provider is unable to deliver their course—perhaps, but not solely as a result of it exiting the market; the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, referred to that. Under these proposals the Office for Students will have the flexibility to require any provider on the register to have a student protection plan in place through conditions attached to its registration. We expect that the OfS will require all approved fee-capped providers, including FE colleges, if they are higher education providers, to have plans in place. In those FE colleges with students studying HE courses, the FE students will have the benefit of being protected by the special objective in the event of the college becoming insolvent and the body being placed in education administration. Measures within the provider’s student protection plan may also be relevant and could be brought into play.
I understand that noble Lords are concerned that FE colleges offering such provision will be subject to both regimes and that this will add to the cost of running HE provision. Whether to require FE bodies to have student protection plans in place will be a matter for the Office for Students to decide. However, I agree that where an FE body is insolvent and in special administration, it would make little sense for the education administrator to be required to implement the SPP at the same time as implementing the proposals to achieve the special objective, if possible, as those proposals will extend to the very students covered by the student protection plan.
Where the Secretary of State or Welsh Ministers have decided to place an FE college in special administration, the special objective should take precedence over SPPs. In seeking to achieve the special objective, the education administrator must avoid or minimise disruption to the studies of students of the FE body as a whole, regardless of the course they are studying. There may be circumstances in which the education administrator may find it helpful to refer to the measures within the plan to inform the proposals for a particular student or groups of students, but a student protection plan might impede the education administrator’s discretion about the best way to achieve the special objective. Where this is the case, the provisions of the Bill already allow the court to make an interim order that would suspend existing student protection plans where it considers that necessary or appropriate. I hope that I have been able to reassure the noble Lord that the proposed amendment is unnecessary and that he will withdraw it.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I thank the Minister for his response. I am glad we agree on this. I thought for a moment he was going to give me a concession, which would have been unexpected for a very broad probing amendment. He did not, but he did say that there is a power in Bill. I have been unable to find it, so if he could write to me about that, I would be grateful. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“3A The education administrator may not transfer assets of any further education body to a for-profit private company where he or she considers that more than half of the funding of the acquisition of the asset came from public funds.”
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I was hoping to have a short breather while we discussed other important matters, but unfortunately that has not happened. We move on to Amendment 47, which refers back to some of the issues that we have been dealing with regarding process, particularly what happens to assets. Clearly much of the work of the special administration scheme will be the ability to bring forward and, if necessary, sell—in other words, dispose of—assets that would otherwise not be there that could be used to repay the creditors, and I suppose might in part be used to maintain the operation of the college that is under liquidation.
To stand back a little from the issue, the interesting thing is that much of what we are trying to achieve in this special educational administration is more akin to the Chapter 11 processes in American bankruptcy law than to those here. We have the same basic elements: a court-driven procedure, the protection measure in place in order to make sure that the institution is kept as a going concern, and a commitment that is well expressed in terms of the special purposes of the education administrator to take it through. The question is whether or not that follows through all the way.
The amendment is probing, but it builds on one or two issues regarding which we want to get responses from the Minister on the record. In the first place, it would be helpful if we clarified that, as has been explained by the Ministers in their responses, this is unlikely to be a regular occurrence and will not be precipitated by the Bill, but it might happen and therefore we should walk through it and understand it. If we have a situation where a college is going insolvent, either the system can then operate on existing measures or the Secretary of State can apply for and obtain an order to establish the special administration, and then we are into the process that we have talked about at length and do not need to go back to.
However, it may arise that funds coming into the college to maintain it as a going concern are difficult to sustain. There may be changes in government policy or other changes in external funding that mean that it will not remain a going concern. So we are talking about maintaining the services and facilities for the students for as long as possible but in the certain knowledge that the institution is going to close down. At that point, I am sure it will be in the mind of the special administrator that some assets could be sold so that money could be obtained. Depending on the rules laid down for them, it would probably be rather difficult for that person not to engage with that possibility. However much we may wish to have the assets and the buildings maintained in case there is an uplift and the funds come back, the cruel reality of the situation will probably kick in and mean that the assets will be sold.
If the institution were a charity, as many of these bodies are, the question would not arise because, under charity law, charitable bodies holding assets are not allowed to dispose of them to third parties—in fact there is a prohibition that they must dispose of them to charities of similar nature and purpose so that the charitable purpose under which they were originally established may be maintained. I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm that that is the Government’s understanding of the issue. Where special systems or incorporation arrangements are in place, I assume that that will also apply, but charitable status is the main area here, so we are talking about a relatively small group of places where the natural process would be perhaps to squeeze the college down to a smaller area and get rid of buildings, equipment and so on.
The problem then arises that funding was almost certainly originally provided from local authorities but, since then, certainly from central government, so there is an investment issue about whether the funding that has been provided should not be better retained in the sector, even if it cannot be retained within the existing body as a going concern. So the amendment poses this question: in the relatively unlikely event of this happening where the college is not a charity, what happens to freeheld assets that could be disposed of where those assets were originally funded from the public purse? Is there not at least a moral obligation to ensure that they are retained within the sector? I beg to move.
Lord Storey
I have always been concerned when public money has been used to purchase a facility—let us say that it has been used to purchase an FE college and that FE college then sells off land, for example a playing field. That playing field may often have a dual use: perhaps the local community uses it for activities, for example, which is good for the FE college and for the local community. So when it sells it off, public money is being lost to that community.
As we said under the first group of amendments, the likelihood of insolvency is remote. With this amendment, I get the point that public money bought the facilities but, presumably, you could have local authorities—I have seen it quite often—saying, “We’ll have the facilities”, but then selling them off to the private sector to get that money in for other things for the community. Is that the point that the noble Lord is making?
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
No, it is not actually—although that is a scary prospect. In my scenario, we are in a liquidation situation in which decisions have been reached that the college is going to decline, because it cannot be made secure. It has been superseded by the court order now in the hands of the special administrator, and a decision has to be made about what happens to the residue. That may take time, but at the end of the day there will be a blank wall and the car will hit it. At that point, what happens to those assets? It is not that they could not be sold for benefit—the noble Lord’s point about land is absolutely right. I think it is pretty unlikely, but there could be land associated with FE colleges that, if sold, could realise development potential which could pay off all the creditors, and that could be seen to be a good thing. But if that money was originally provided for the education—not for a charity, because that is protected—what is the right way to go forward?
Baroness Cohen of Pimlico
I support what I think the amendment is about. There is a worrying set of complications, in my mind. Someone has provided the money to keep the FE college going while the special administrator decides that actually it cannot be kept going. Where does the person who provided the money rank among the creditors? We are talking about selling assets at the end of this. For a start, the bank might have a charge on those assets, in which case I guess that is the answer, but somebody has put money in to keep the business going. I have done this on behalf of the Department of Industry—we took back the money that we had put in to keep it going. What is the order of batting in relation to the local authority, or whoever it is, who put the money in to keep the institution going, and the rest of the creditors?
Lord Nash
My Lords, I start by saying that I recognise that the amendment is driven by noble Lords’ good intentions. They are concerned that assets that have been paid for largely by money from the taxpayer should not then find their way into the private sector at an undervalue, when they can then be sold and used to make a profit at the taxpayer’s expense. I recognise and share those concerns. FE colleges are statutory corporations with significant freedoms to deal with their own assets, but the key check on those freedoms is that any such dealing must be in the interests of the colleges’ charitable education—as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, the basis on which they have their charitable status.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his helpful comments. I suspect that the most assured protection would be for the body concerned to be a charitable body. This would give total protection to the resources in the institution because it is not possible to make such a transfer under charitable law. That is not the situation if there are special measures. It is sufficiently clear that the primary purposes trump others—in so far as it is possible that the assets should be kept and used for further education. In these circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“( ) to the director of children’s services at the local authority or combined authority in whose area the relevant institution is based, and to any other director of children’s services that the education administrator thinks appropriate,”
Lord Nash
My Lords, I want to explain Amendments 48 to 55, which we have tabled to Schedules 3 and 4. These reflect the commitment that my colleague, the Minister of State for Apprenticeships and Skills, gave in the other place to ensure that the needs of care leavers are provided for in the event that the FE body they attend enters educational administration. We agree that students who are care leavers and have already experienced uncertainty and disruption in their lives may well need additional support to help and reassure them during what may feel like uncertain times. Of course, it is entirely possible that, in the event of insolvency, the insolvent college will be taken over by another provider and students will be able to remain on the same campus, studying many of the same subjects. If this is not possible and students need to be transferred to other providers and possibly other courses, we want to ensure that care leavers can get the advice and guidance that they need, particularly if this encourages them to remain in further education. Having got care leavers into education—which is sometimes not easy—it is important to make sure that we retain them there.
There was debate in the other place as to whether there should be a requirement placed on the education administrator to take particular account of the needs of care leavers in much the same way as Clause 22(3) requires them to take account of the needs of students with special educational needs. As the Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills explained, the needs of care leavers are more pastoral and would, therefore, be better met by the personal advisor appointed by the local authority to support them. He committed the Government to ensuring that guidance to local authorities on their corporate parenting responsibilities would include advice to personal advisers in the event of a college insolvency affecting a young person for whom they were responsible. This amendment supports the delivery of this commitment. It ensures that support and advice is available to those who need it, by adding the director of children’s services in local authorities—or in combined authorities where relevant—to the list of those to whom the education administrator is required to send a copy of the proposals for dealing with the insolvent college. In this way, the local authority will receive formal notification of what is happening and can trigger the necessary action by personal advisers. I hope that noble Lords will agree to accept these amendments. I beg to move.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, I warmly welcome these amendments. I am sure that if the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, were in his place, he would be particularly pleased to see that these were included. It is reassuring to find the director of children’s services being included in the Bill.
“( ) to any director of children’s services to whom the statement of proposals was sent under paragraph 49,”
“““combined authority” means an authority established under section 103(1) of the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009;”,““director of children’s services” means—(a) in respect of a local authority, a person appointed under section 18 of the Children Act 2004;(b) in respect of a combined authority, a person appointed to discharge functions corresponding to those of a person appointed under section 18 of the Children Act 2004;”,”
“““local authority” has the meaning given in section 65 of the Children Act 2004;”,”
Baroness Buscombe
“( ) to the director of children’s services at the local authority or combined authority in whose area the relevant institution is based, and to any other director of children’s services that the education administrator thinks appropriate,”
“( ) to any director of children’s services to whom the statement of proposals was sent under paragraph 49,”
“““combined authority” means an authority established under section 103(1) of the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009;”,““director of children’s services” means—(a) in respect of a local authority, a person appointed under section 18 of the Children Act 2004;(b) in respect of a combined authority, a person appointed to discharge functions corresponding to those of a person appointed under section 18 of the Children Act 2004;”,”
“““local authority” has the meaning given in section 65 of the Children Act 2004;”,”
“( ) Sums guaranteed under subsection (1) shall include statutory pension obligations payable to staff employed by a further education body subject to an education administration order.”
Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)
My Lords, Amendment 56 would ensure that staff employed by an FE college continued to accrue statutory teachers’ pension scheme and local government pension scheme pension obligations during an education administration. The first of those is self-explanatory, and FE colleges are legally obliged to offer either that or LGPS membership to their staff. The latter is the scheme for the large number of so-called support staff, from learning support assistants, caretakers and catering staff to administrators, cleaners and IT technicians. It would be completely unacceptable if, as a result of an insolvency, staff pension rights or their potential pension rights were to be adversely affected.
When this amendment was considered on Report in another place, the Minister, Mr Halfon, said:
“As with any administration, once the administrator has adopted the employment contracts of the staff they decide to keep on, they are personally liable for the costs of those ?individuals, such as their salary and their pension contributions. They would take on the appointment only if they were confident that sufficient funds were available to meet the costs. Some pension contributions will continue to be made and benefits accrue”.—[Official Report, Commons, 9/1/17; col. 115.]
Although that sounds like a firm commitment, it has not assuaged those with staff directly involved in colleges—namely, the Association of Colleges and the University and College Union. If that is what the Government understand the position to be, I suggest they can have no objection to placing it in the Bill. The Minister in the other place did not provide a reason why that could not be undertaken, and I hope the Minister today will state the case one way or the other.
There are wider issues regarding pensions relating to the Bill. There is concern within the FE sector that the insolvency regime outlined in the Bill is already discouraging partnership and investment by making banks hesitant to lend to colleges. Some colleges are facing issues with proposed mergers arising from area reviews because of difficulties with bank lending linked to local government pension scheme liabilities, which now have to be shown on colleges’ balance sheets.
The area reviews under way are aimed at rationalising the FE sector. That process has been more problematic than it might have been, but at least no colleges have been closed thus far. A number have been merged and often that has worked well, with both partners approaching the future with greater confidence. However, that has not always been the case. For various reasons some projected mergers have not been completed, and one such example is currently the subject of some controversy. Other than to say that they are based in the same city, I will not identify the colleges because that might serve to exacerbate an already difficult situation, but the major stumbling block in that case is the pension scheme, more so at one college than the other. The local LGPS has changed the colleges’ deficit repayment terms from a 22-year plan with no interest to a 10-year plan with an interest rate of 4.3%. As a result, banks are refusing to advance the necessary funds to allow the mergers to go ahead. Essentially the increasing potential for colleges to become insolvent and the proposals within the Bill mean that colleges are now being viewed as high-risk employers, making both pension schemes and banks look on them less favourably and undermining area review outcomes where these have otherwise been agreed.
I have already mentioned the two schemes that apply. When incorporation began some 25 years ago and colleges were removed from local authority control, part of the deal was that by regulation they were obliged to offer one of the schemes as appropriate to existing staff. For new staff, colleges have often held contracts of employment with a wholly owned subsidiary company that may or may not be part of either the teachers’ pay pension scheme or the local government pension scheme—more often, for obvious reasons, it has been “may not”. So, provided that a college keeps paying for current staff, pension costs in respect of new staff will slowly be reduced as they are put on significantly worse pension schemes.
The college area review process has caused problems because often the local fund of the local government pension scheme requires the scheme’s debts to be met by the new entity. This becomes more complicated where mergers cross local authority borders, involving different strands of the LGPS. Differing LGPS regions have significantly different policies on past service deficits, and impose differing contribution rates. They might even insist upon any deficits being paid off in full.
An example of this has been brought to my attention by Sandwell College in West Bromwich. The West Midlands local government pension fund has notified all colleges in its region that, because of its interpretation of the Bill, it intends to increase the risk banding of all colleges. Sandwell College has been rated financially outstanding by both the DfE and the SFA and, in the area review, the further education commissioner decided that it should remain a viable independent institution. Despite all that, the West Midlands pension fund still believes that, because of the insolvency regime that forms the bulk of the Bill, Sandwell College is now at high risk, when it is palpably is not.
Lord Storey
My Lords, I support this important amendment. As we said at the beginning and keep underlining, the insolvency regime is highly unlikely to happen, but that does not mean that we cannot give comfort to staff working in further education, particularly at a time when all the changes, area reviews and, indeed, the Bill have created uncertainty when they need certainty. As we have heard, often through no fault of their own, they could be in a poorer financial place. When we have just heard that BHS staff are to get their full pension entitlements, would it not be nice if the Minister would agree the amendment?
Baroness Cohen of Pimlico
I raise another worry that has come to me, which is the reverse. If a public or private company is in danger of takeover, one very good way to prevent that is to introduce a poison pill. The quick way to do it is usually through a very generous pension scheme, or a pay-off scheme for your senior staff. If I were a threatened institution, I might be tempted to consider either of those. It is a hard life, but do we have any means of dealing with threatened institutions which introduce financial measures which will make it much more difficult if they need to be closed or otherwise dealt with?
Baroness Buscombe
I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this important debate and will do my very best to reply and, I hope, reassure—notwithstanding that I think that noble Lords accept that some of the important issues raised go beyond the scope of the amendment.
I recognise the well-intentioned purpose of the amendment, which is to ensure that those staff employed by a further education body in education administration continue to accrue their pension entitlements. I hope to reassure the Committee that pension rights will be protected in the unlikely event that the further education body becomes insolvent and is placed in education administration.
In developing the special administration regime, the Committee will see that we have sought to mirror many of the provisions that exist in the ordinary administration regime that applies in the event of a company insolvency. As noble Lords will know, in an ordinary company administration, the administrator has 14 days to decide whether to adopt staff contracts. Those who continue to be employed by the company will continue to be paid in accordance with the contract, including payment by the company of any pension contributions that fall due. These payments are an expense of the administration and continue until the staff are transferred to a new employer, if the business is sold to a new owner, as is often the case, or until their contract is terminated. We propose to adopt similar provisions for an education administration.
We have been clear that, for the education administration to be successful—for the special objective to be achieved—it will be necessary for the Government to provide funding to achieve the special objective: for example, to allow the college to continue to operate while the education administrator prepares his proposals for the college’s future. The Bill provides at Clause 25 powers for the Secretary of State or Welsh Ministers to provide that funding, where necessary, whether through loans or grants. In addition, the Secretary of State or Welsh Ministers may choose, where they consider it appropriate, to give indemnities under Clause 26, or guarantees under Clause 28, during the education administration.
Any funding provided under Clause 25 can be used to meet the cost of the education administration, including ongoing staff salaries and associated contributions, such as employer pension contributions. For as long as pension contributions are being made in accordance with staff contracts, pension entitlements will continue to accrue. The education administration changes nothing in this regard. However, once contributions cease, so too will the accrual of benefits. This would happen where staff were made redundant during the education administration. As with any employer pension scheme, once an individual’s employment ends they can no longer continue to pay into that scheme, but that does not mean that the benefits individuals have accrued in the scheme at that point are lost. Although they can no longer be added to, the benefits accrued will remain in the scheme and increase, as provided for by the terms of the scheme. Individuals will be able to access these benefits as and when the terms permit.
I believe that the way in which the regime will operate in practice means that the amendment is unnecessary. The Secretary of State may not provide a guarantee during an education administration, whereas it is almost inevitable that the Secretary of State or Welsh Ministers will provide funding through a loan or grant during an education administration. This funding will enable the continued operation of the further education body, and this in turn will mean that pension contributions continue to be made for all staff, whether teachers, caretakers, cleaners or support staff. I hope that that gives some reassurance.
I turn to some of the wider issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Watson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Cohen. Further education colleges report that they are seeing a marked increase in the risks attached to their LGPS pension deficits. The question is: what are we going to do to counteract that? Further education bodies underwent the triennial revaluation of their LGPS pension deficit positions last year, and are still in the process of receiving and reviewing their results. We are aware of the outcome of a few, but not the majority, of the positions of colleges across England. The picture we have is mixed, with some coming out with results better than anticipated, and a minority even seeing their deficit repayment cost reduced for the forthcoming period. Others are seeing their costs increased. In some cases, that may be because they did not increase substantially in the previous revaluation period. There is residual adjustment being made in this period.
The assessment of repayment obligations is a function of many factors, including fund performance, the size of the deficit and fund managers’ overall analysis of the financial position of the relevant college. Reports from colleges received so far suggest that in only a few cases has a pension fund’s assessment of the risk of further education insolvency specifically contributed to revaluations with significantly increased repayment costs. Further education bodies have freedoms and flexibilities in law to be financially and operationally independent of government and are therefore classified by the ONS as private sector. Pension revaluations are a matter for negotiation between individual FE colleges and their pension fund, and final revaluations are normally based on a variety of factors as assessed by actuaries.
The noble Lord, Lord Watson, mentioned Sandwell, and I shall reference that and West Midlands. Only two of the 91 LGPS pension funds expressed in response to our consultation that the special objective in the insolvency regime was inappropriately formulated, one—which was actually West Midlands—suggesting that creditor protection should be placed on a par with learner protection and the other suggesting that creditor protection should be prioritised over learners. The others that responded to the consultation supported the premise of learner protection or were silent on the point.
As was set out in our response to the consultation, it is right that learner protection is prioritised and that approach is widely supported, even by other creditors. That is the point of the special objective. A few pension funds also questioned not limiting the length of the time for a SAR. We are clear that this is so as to not constrain the education administrator. In reality, an education administration may well last a similar length of time to an ordinary administration. Ordinary company administrations often last at least 12 months and then are often extended for a further 12 months or so, so an education administration lasting this length of time would not be unusual for insolvency proceedings. Several pension funds, as well as other creditors, sought greater certainty on how a SAR would be funded, and the Government responded by providing additional flexibility in the funding power set out in the Bill, removing the requirement that loans from government be made on a basis of priority to other creditors. So the Government can choose, in each individual case, to pay for the costs of the SAR up front by a loan and to not require that loan to be repaid unless any funds remained after other creditors had been paid out, meaning that the assets normally available to creditors remain available to creditors in the usual priority. This will be a matter to be decided case by case, but it does not appear that all pension funds have taken this change from the stricter position in normal insolvency into account in their assessment of the risk.
With regard to the wider issues, which go beyond the scope of the amendment, I hope that I have been able to reassure noble Lords. If there are issues outstanding, I shall write to noble Lords and place a copy in the Library for the benefit of all. On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord withdraws his amendment.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
I thank the noble Baroness for that comprehensive response. On the first part of the response relating to the amendment, to a significant extent she repeated the words of Mr Halfon in another place but, equally, she repeated his failure to give a reason why this should not be in the Bill. She said that the Government propose to adopt similar provisions—
Baroness Buscombe
I may not be able to reassure the noble Lord, but we simply do not feel that it is necessary to have this in the Bill.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
Yes, but that is not giving a reason. The proposal is very important, and it fits in with the provisions in Clauses 25 to 28. No harm can be done in having it in the Bill; if it gives reassurance to those working within the sector, I would suggest that, in the absence of any reason not to do it, that should be sufficient reason for it to be included.
I accept that the other points that I raised were beyond the scope of the amendment, and I thank the Minister for indulging me in her response. I praise the perspicacity of the officials sitting behind her, who obviously had an answer pretty much prepared, without knowing that I was going to raise these issues. Maybe it just came off the top of their heads—but either way it was impressive and very detailed.
I will want to take some time to consider what the Minister said. There may well be a case for seeking a report from the Government Actuary on funds that have acted strangely because, if I heard her correctly, she said that two out of 91 funds have suggested that they foresee problems as a result of the provisions of the Bill. I had not realised that it was that narrow. There is still the potential for other funds to adopt a similar position. Perhaps they are holding fire until the Bill becomes law. Can the matter be referred to the Government Actuary for a report on the potential outcome as well as the actual outcomes? At the moment, it seems that problems are being created for some colleges. If they are mainly in the West Midlands, so be it, but the point is that it could happen elsewhere. Will she look at that possibility? On the basis of what she has said to me, we will decide whether to revisit this issue. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“( ) The Secretary of State must ensure that the list of disqualified officers is made publicly available.”
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I shall, rather sensibly, be brief because I am trying to amend a clause that I think will be deleted in the next group, so there is not much point in me trying to argue persuasively the merit of my case, although I certainly could. Since the point arises again in relation to the new Clause 37, if it is approved by the Committee, we may as well just cover it.
I do not think we are far apart on this. The question is more one of being clear about what is asked for and how it will be made available. The issue raised by the amendment is that where people are disqualified from holding office in the further education sector, there is a risk if their names are not made available because they could pop up in other colleges and might be subject to the same concerns. A list, which is quite common in other areas of insolvency, should be made available. It is not mentioned in the Bill or the new clause. When the Minister speaks, I may be advised that this will be dealt with in regulations. If so, I would be very happy at that stage to concede that this point is not required. I beg to move.
Lord Nash
I intend to go into the detail, which the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, referred to, of the application of the Company Directors Disqualification Act 1986 to FE bodies when I speak to the amendment that I have tabled to amend Clause 37 by replacing it with a revised version. As we continue to refer to that Act, in this and the subsequent amendment, I propose that we use its acronym, the CDDA.
For consideration now is Amendment 57, which was tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Watson and Lord Hunt, which specifically provides that the Secretary of State must ensure that the list of disqualified officers is made publicly available. This amendment refers explicitly to disqualified officers, which we take to mean members—that is, governors—of an FE body who have been disqualified by the court having been found liable of wrongful or fraudulent trading under the Insolvency Act 1986, as applied to FE bodies that are statutory corporations by Clause 5, or of similar offences. Under Clause 5, the provisions in the Insolvency Act 1986 relating to wrongful and fraudulent trading will apply to governors and other individuals who run FE bodies in the same way as those provisions apply to directors of, and others involved in the running of, companies.
I understand noble Lords’ concerns and recognise the intent behind this amendment that a publicly searchable list of disqualified individuals should be maintained, so that it is apparent who should not be appointed as a governor of other FE bodies. However, there is already provision in the CDDA for a register of disqualification orders, which is to be open to inspection, to be kept by the Secretary of State. Therefore Clause 37, both as currently drafted and as we intend to amend it, already provides for the well-intended purpose that noble Lords are seeking to achieve. On this basis, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw the amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I thank the Minister for his comments, which I fully accept. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Nash
My Lords, the amendments we have tabled are to replace the original Clause 37 with a new version, with the intention of fully applying, rather than replicating, the CDDA to FE bodies in England and Wales. Amendment 65 to Clause 43 adds an additional clause—Clause 5, in so far as it relates to Section 426 of the Insolvency Act—to the parts of the Bill which extend to all parts of the UK.
The amendment to Clause 37 removes the delegated power to replicate the CDDA and instead applies that Act in full to FE bodies in England and Wales. This allows the court to disqualify any governors whom it finds liable to wrongdoing, not only from being governors but also from being company directors. In so doing, it fully prevents them from being able to repeat, in a different way, the mistakes they have made potentially at the expense of another FE body. This was not possible with the original drafting of the clause, which allowed us to replicate the CDDA but not fully apply it. The amendment closes a potential loophole in the legislation and more fully protects learners at FE bodies from the actions of any governor who chose to act recklessly.
Wrongful and fraudulent trading are important elements of the corporate insolvency regime, which protects creditors against wrongful conduct by directors. We are looking to achieve the same protection in our own regime for creditors of FE bodies. The responsibilities we propose for those bodies’ governors are very similar to their existing responsibilities as charity trustees. Part of that protection is the deterrent effect enshrined in and created by the CDDA regime, which goes hand in hand with the corporate insolvency regime and has done so for the past 30 years. The Charity Commission is wholly supportive of the approach we are taking and sees it as in line with the approach taken for the trustees of charitable companies and charitable incorporated organisations.
The amendment to Clause 43 provides that the provisions of the Bill which extend in their application to all the different parts of the UK include Clause 5, in so far as it relates to Section 426 of the Insolvency Act. Let me be clear: this does not mean that the FE insolvency regime would apply to FE bodies incorporated in Scotland and Northern Ireland. It would apply, as set out in Clauses 5 and 6 when read together with the definitions in Clause 3, only to those FE bodies in England and Wales established under the Further and Higher Education Act 1992.
The amendment would provide that Section 426 of the Insolvency Act extends to the whole of the UK, which would ensure co-operation between the courts of the different parts of the UK. This means that courts in different jurisdictions might be asked to co-operate on a particular case, for example over the enforcement of a charge where assets are located in a different part of the UK to the location of the insolvent FE body; or, in the case of governor disqualification, preventing a governor disqualified in England or Wales becoming a governor in another part of the UK. In view of what I have said, I hope noble Lords will agree to accept the amendments to Clauses 37 and 43.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, Clause 38 is about information reported to the Secretary of State about further education. We are proposing to add these additional lines because of concerns that any changes to the further education sector should be monitored. This is to ensure that the changes are not having an adverse impact either on the quality of courses provided or on people accessing further education. We need to ensure that no groups are particularly adversely impacted.
In 2015, the Independent reported on concerns that a,
“crisis in education funding could see the closure of as many as four in ten sixth-form and further education colleges, according to a new financial analysis”.
In 2014, Sixth Form Colleges Association research showed that the quality of courses was clearly under threat. Its key findings were that over two-thirds of colleges have had to drop courses this year as a result of budget cuts, 15% more than the previous year, and over one-third have dropped sought-after modern language courses. Modern languages will be even more important if we are to continue to communicate with our near neighbours post-Brexit, as well as keeping up trade and good relationships with countries further afield.
More than one-fifth of colleges have apparently lost courses in science, technology, engineering and maths. We are all aware of the shortage of STEM skills. What folly it would be to lose any provision in these subjects. Almost all the colleges in the research, 95%, say they have had to reduce staffing levels; more than two-thirds are teaching students in larger classes; and almost three-quarters say they have had to reduce or remove extracurricular activities such as sport and music. This situation is not healthy for the country, nor for individuals. The amendment would ensure that we were not walking blindly into an irretrievable position, with the loss of valuable educational provision.
I have also added my name to Amendment 62, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Liverpool, who spoke on this point at Second Reading. There is so much in the Bill about insolvency that we are in danger of losing sight of the institute. Amendment 62 suggests that the institute should promote soft skills. Particularly for disadvantaged young people but actually for any number of other young people, soft skills are important in getting access to jobs and future opportunities. Surely this could profitably be part of the institute’s role. I beg to move Amendment 59.
The Earl of Liverpool (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Garden of Frognal, for referring to my amendment and adding her name to it. She is quite right that I referred to this point at Second Reading. I also referred to the House of Lords report entitled Youth Unemployment in the EU: A Scarred Generation?, prepared by the EU Committee’s Sub-Committee B. My noble friend Lady Buscombe recently reminded me that for a time, we both served on that committee. As I believe she will respond to this group of amendments on behalf of the Government, I very much look forward to hearing what she has to say.
I make no apology for going back to that sub-committee report because I want to pray in aid paragraph 91 on page 41, which makes the case for my amendment. I should like to read the relevant paragraph, headed “Skills”, into the record:
“Employers suggested that one of the key issues in the area of unemployment was that young people did not have the basic skills to take the available jobs. Marks and Spencer said, ‘we are seeing … school leavers lacking basic employability skills, such as communication, self-esteem, confidence’. It said that this created a vicious circle where young people were unable to get jobs due to their lack of skills, which then further damaged their confidence. WORKing for YOUth said that ‘employers tell us in no uncertain terms that it is the soft skills—the communicative skills, the social skills—that they find most lacking by the time people leave school to come to them’”.
I am sure I am not alone in finding that many of my friends in commerce and industry fully endorse this point.
I do not wish to criticise the youth of today, who in some respects are better qualified than ever before, but it is this area of soft skills—or a lack of them—which can let them down when attending job interviews. It is not their fault; since the advent of smart phones, tablets, Facebook and many other apps and games, the young have become almost addicted to looking at their screens and not interacting with others face to face. Indeed, I read an article in a national newspaper at the weekend saying that young people spend an average of five hours a day looking at their screens, so it is little wonder that some communicative and interpersonal skills are to be found wanting.
Surely, the main purpose of this legislation is to seek to provide the youth of today and tomorrow with the broadest set of skills possible to prepare them for full-time employment. This is a golden opportunity to write this amendment or something similar into the Bill. I look forward to hearing what my noble friend the Minister and other noble Lords have to say.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, we have an amendment in this group. I support the amendments proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, and the noble Earl, Lord Liverpool. They make a very good case for additional words in the Bill to reflect what is surely implied in much of what we have been discussing: the ability of this sector to turn out people with not only technical and apprenticeship skills but wider abilities in the pursuit of jobs and the support of UK plc.
Our amendment is based on an assumption that if all this information is going to be collected then it must be used for something and not simply stay in files in the department. It should be used to support the technical and FE sectors and make sure that people are aware of what work is being done there. The quality being provided and assured by this Bill will make a difference to what people might do and which careers they are going to have. One of the great complaints we hear is that so little is done to try to encourage people towards this sector where good and rewarding courses are on offer, out of which good and rewarding careers can be built. If that is not known, people will not apply, and we will perpetuate the problems we have had in the past. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say about these issues. We support the other two amendments in this group.
Baroness Buscombe
Amendment 59 is proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, and the noble Lord, Lord Storey. It is important that we have a comprehensive analysis of how the further education system is operating in England, including which learners are studying which courses. I agree with noble Lords that analysis of the quality—that is a word I do not think we have used this evening but which we used a lot in Monday in Committee on this Bill—of further education provision and information about learners, including diversity and their geographic circumstances, are important.
However, we believe that this amendment is not necessary. The clause already enables the Secretary of State to require such information if she chooses to do so. The clause rightly gives discretion to the Secretary of State about what information to require from provider organisations. That is the approach in the current legislation we are amending through this clause that underpins a national data system that is working well. The way we gather information is not broken and we are not trying to fix it. We already have the ability to require the information specified in this amendment and already do so. The purpose of this clause is simply to ensure that we can continue to perform a robust and comprehensive analysis of the operation of the further education system in England after responsibility for some aspects of it are transferred to certain combined authorities as part of the wider devolution deals the Government have agreed.
On Amendment 60, I entirely agree with the sentiments of the new clause that would require the Government to have regard to four important aspects of technical and further education. However, I do not believe that the amendment is necessary because they are all things already provided for in the legislation. The duty to,
“promote and support the technical and further education sectors”,
is at the very heart of the recommendations made by the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury, in his review. In the skills plan we announced that we would streamline the technical education system by introducing a common framework of routes underpinned by occupational maps. New qualifications will be introduced that are driven by the needs of particular occupations and based on standards designed by employers and other relevant stakeholders. Many of the reforms will be taken forward by the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education under amendments made in the Enterprise Act 2016 after Royal Assent which will come into effect from April this year. The reformed technical education system will be reliant on a strong network of colleges and other providers.
The Government’s area review process has supported a restructuring of the post-16 education and training sector and helped to create more financial stable and efficient providers as well as improved collaboration across the different types of institution. We have announced £170 million of capital funding for the institutes of technology to make sure that we have sufficient provision targeted at delivering high-quality technical education at higher skills levels that is tailored around the needs of local employers.
With regard to the duty to ensure high-quality apprenticeship programmes, the duty in paragraph (b) of the proposed clause is not necessary. The Government have already made a public commitment to ensure high-quality apprenticeship programmes. We will discharge this duty in a number of ways. The Government have accepted the recommendations of the Richard and Sainsbury reviews that will help ensure that the apprenticeships offered are of a high standard. As noble Lords are aware, the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education—on course to be launched in April—will be an independent body, led by employers and others, which will assure the quality of apprenticeship standards and plans in England. Our apprenticeship reforms have introduced a higher bar through the end-point assessment. The holistic assessment of apprentices will give employers confidence that their apprentices are job-ready by requiring them to demonstrate full competence in their occupation in order to pass their end-point assessment.
The Government’s responsibility to ensure high-quality apprenticeships also extends to training. We are working closely with Ofsted, which has a statutory responsibility to inspect the apprenticeships that we fund. We have also created a new register of apprenticeship training providers, with an emphasis on quality. Those with an inadequate Ofsted rating are not eligible to apply. The Skills Funding Agency also ensures the quality of apprenticeship training through its minimum standards and intervention regime.
In paragraph 10 of our draft strategic guidance for the institute, we have made it clear that,
“we would expect the Institute to support employers to develop ambitious plans for good quality standards, not least in sectors where we have evidence of skills gaps and that are priorities for the industrial strategy”.
We have also made it clear that:
“Supporting greater social mobility is also a clear Government priority. Apprenticeships can play a key role in helping to deliver this, through ensuring that people from all backgrounds are able to progress”.
The next duty is to support the financial stability and good governance of further education bodies. Strong financial management and effective governing bodies are important priorities recognised across the college sector. Many governing bodies have made significant progress in ensuring that they have the relevant finance skills and expertise. A survey of governing bodies, carried out by the Association of Colleges in 2015, found that among independent governors, 17% had a professional background in finance, which was second only to those with a background in education. We know that some colleges still find it difficult to recruit governors with a financial background. This is why the Government are funding the newly launched inspiring governance service to help colleges, as well as schools, find people with the right skills to join their governing bodies. The Government are also supporting the Education and Training Foundation in developing a training programme for governors with an existing finance role.
Where colleges fail in their financial management through poor financial performance or control there is an intervention system in place which can include referral to the further education commissioner. The commissioner will assess the college and make specific recommendations for strengthening the governing body. The further education commissioner has set out lessons for strengthening governance in colleges through his termly letters to the sector.
Finally, the duty to support good-quality careers advice is contained in the proposed new clause. The Government are committed to ensuring that everyone has the appropriate advice and guidance to climb the ladder of opportunity and make the most of their talents. That is why we confirmed in the Building our Industrial Strategy Green Paper our intention to publish a comprehensive careers strategy for all ages later this year. The strategy will set out our plans to expand the quality and quantity of careers advice. We will make it easier for people to access the support they need to find a fulfilling route that is right for them, whether that is an academic or technical route or an apprenticeship.
I hope we can all agree that we share the same objectives and that I have provided sufficient reassurance about the steps that the Government are already taking to support these objectives. I therefore hope that noble Lords will not feel inclined to move Amendment 60.
I move to Amendment 62 in the name of my noble friend Lord Liverpool and the noble Baroness, Lady Garden. As set out in the Post-16 Skills Plan, the Government’s ambition is to ensure that we have young people and adults with the skills, knowledge and behaviours that better equip them for employment in the 21st century. The effect of this amendment will be to prescribe that those skills, knowledge and behaviours include soft skills. I fully understand why my noble friend has put forward this amendment, and I agree that these skills are of paramount importance. The Government are committed to ensuring that everyone has the appropriate advice to climb the ladder of opportunity and make the most of their talents, but that will not happen without these soft skills. I fully understand why my noble friend has put forward these skills, but I am not convinced that placing an express duty on the institute is the most effective way to address them.
One of the fundamental principles of the new technical education reforms will be that employers, supported by education experts, will set the standards required for specific occupations to allow them to shape the content to give students the skills, knowledge and behaviours that employers require. It will be up to employers and relevant stakeholders to determine which soft skills are required for each occupation. That said, I recognise that soft skills will be important to ensure that individuals gain the key employability and occupational skills to get them ready for the workplace, and we are already putting in place measures to encourage this. For example, the Government continue to support schools to offer a broad and balanced curriculum.
We expect all schools to offer their pupils a rigorous curriculum that is supported by activities to develop the soft skills that prepare them for success in modern Britain. For example, extracurricular activities offered by many schools help pupils develop various soft skills such as resilience, leadership, teamwork, and social and emotional skills before they leave school at the age of 16. In 2015-16, the Government invested £5 million in character education to fund grants to organisations and schools to test new approaches and to expand existing programmes, new activity to build the evidence base and the first round of character awards to celebrate those schools and organisations leading the way in developing soft skills in young people. In addition, these core employability skills could be developed through a high-quality, substantial work placement which every 16 to 19 year-old student will undertake as part of the new technical education courses.
I take on board what my noble friend has said in referring to the report, which he and I contributed to, by that EU Sub-Committee which talked about the real importance of those basic skills. One of the key words that my noble friend used was “confidence”. Confidence, communication and self-esteem are absolutely fundamental. You can have all the skills in the world, whether they are academic, technical, or whatever, but if you do not have the ability to communicate and present and accept that as an employee you will often be the first contact with that company—your employer—then it is very difficult for you to climb that ladder of opportunity.
In view of this, we will reflect on current approaches and determine what more we can do to support schools and colleges in this area. I hope that the noble Baroness will feel reassured enough to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I thank the Minister for her detailed reply and the noble Earl, Lord Liverpool, and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for their contributions to this debate. I think it will be important when the institute gets under way to ensure that we monitor the effect it is having on further education. Indeed, I also support the aims of Amendment 60.
We really look forward to the long-awaited careers strategy and hope that it is closely followed by careers advice, because a strategy on its own is not a lot of use unless there is something coming hard behind it. I say to the noble Earl, Lord Liverpool, that we will just have to keep trying to find ways to encourage soft skills. I noted the Minister’s words about how important they are and that the Government have them in mind. With that, I beg leave to withdraw.
“Refund of VAT to further education bodies
(1) This section applies where—(a) VAT is chargeable on—(i) the supply of goods or services to a further education body, (ii) the acquisition of any goods from another member State by a further education body, or(iii) the importation of any goods from a place outside the member States by a further education body, and(b) the supply, acquisition or importation is not for the purposes of any business carried on by the further education body.(2) The Commissioners shall, on a claim made by a further education body at such time and in such form and manner as the Commissioners may determine, refund to that body the amount of VAT so chargeable.(3) Subject to subsection (4), the claim must be made before the end of the period of 4 years beginning with the day on which the supply is made or the acquisition or importation takes place.(4) If the Commissioners so determine, the claim period is such shorter period beginning with that day as the Commissioners may determine.(5) Subsection (6) applies where goods or services supplied to, or acquired or imported by, a further education body cannot be conveniently distinguished from goods or services supplied to, or acquired or imported by, it for the purpose of a business carried on by that body.(6) The amount to be refunded under this section is the amount that remains after deducting from the whole of the VAT chargeable on any supply to, or acquisition or importation by, the further education body such proportion of that VAT as appears to the Commissioners to be attributable to the carrying on of the business.(7) References in this section to VAT do not include any VAT which, by virtue of an order under section 25(7), is excluded from credit under section 25.(8) In this section—(a) references to the further education body are to the further education body acting in that capacity, and(b) “Further education body” has the same meaning as in the Technical and Further Education Act 2017 (see section 3 of that Act).””
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, this is a probing amendment because I am well aware that issues of VAT are somewhat outside the scope of the Department for Education. However, it is an issue that keeps recurring and it does no harm to raise it again occasionally. The purpose is to equalise the arrangement for VAT refunds between schools and colleges. Currently, colleges, schools and academies are all required to pay VAT on their purchases but schools are subsequently reimbursed for these costs. The Sixth Form Colleges Association argues that:
“The Government’s historic defence for the absence of a VAT refund scheme for … Colleges has been that the VAT costs of … Colleges are taken into account as part of their up-front funding allocation. But with the introduction of the new 16-19 funding formula, all 16-19 providers (including school and academy sixth forms, free schools and … Colleges) are now funded in the same way, using the same methodology. We welcome the steps that have been taken to equalise the funding arrangements … Yet schools, academies and free schools continue to benefit from a mechanism to recover their VAT costs, while …Colleges do not”.
A recent survey indicated that the average college pays some £300,000 a year in VAT. This is obviously a significant amount being taken away from the front-line education of students in a way that is not comparable in schools and academies. Apparently, it would cost around £31 million each year to refund the VAT costs of colleges—but perhaps I should not have mentioned that.
The parliamentary Library briefing on the funding of 16-19 education indicates some key points. In 2010, the Government made a commitment to “fairer post-16 funding”—closing the funding gap between 16-19 education in schools and that in colleges. This was set out in a White Paper called The Importance of Teaching. However, the Government do not seem to have followed this up. There was a ray of hope in an Answer given by David Cameron when he was Prime Minister to a Question from Ian Swales who was then the Liberal Democrat MP for Redcar—those happy days. He asked why colleges had to pay VAT while schools and academies did not. The Prime Minister replied that he would look carefully at what had been raised, particularly in respect of free school meals for sixth form colleges and for secondary schools. He added that it was very welcome that children in infant schools would not have to pay for school meals. He then said:
“I will look carefully at his point about VAT”.—[Official Report, Commons, 9/10/13; col. 158.]
However, looking carefully did not seem to mean that much happened afterwards.
This seems to be an anomaly which could and should be rectified. It would bring considerable benefit to the education of young people and adults in further education bodies, be they sixth form colleges or further education colleges. I raise it again just to see whether there is a more positive response from the Minister. I beg to move.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I support the amendment; it is a probing amendment in a complex area. Of course the matter is not in the hands of the Minister who is due to respond to it, because it is a matter that is jealously guarded by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who after all is responsible for tax receipts. In my experience, the issue is very complicated, not least because of history and practice. There may be a strand of European ideology built into this as well, which may reach a conclusion in a couple of years’ time—or not, as the case may be.
The basic principles of the VAT system are very straightforward: a trading operation has to trade with the full weight of VAT on it, and expenditure on it is recouped against subsequent users and from those who purchase the goods and services provided. Those things that are not deemed to be trading do not attract VAT, but equally they cannot be redeemed against the VAT that has been incurred in the purchase and preparation of them.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, said, those bodies exposed to the full weight of VAT on their non-trading activities suffer a 20% penalty for the work that they are doing, and that is money that could be properly reinvested. That is a sound case and I am sure it has exercised Ministers before. I look forward to hearing the response.
Lord Nash
I thank noble Lords for this amendment, which calls for a change in tax policy. It seeks to allow FE colleges to claim refunds of VAT incurred on their non-business expenditure. As noble Lords have acknowledged, tax policy is a matter for the Chancellor and the Treasury. Any tax changes are considered by the Chancellor in the normal way and announced in the context of his Budget judgment, as he will be doing next week.
I understand this call for additional funds from the Treasury for FE, but there are clear implications when thinking about such a change. It is estimated that it would cost the Exchequer about £145 million per year. That cost would have to be covered somewhere in the economy—for example, reducing public expenditure on other government priorities. In addition, the VAT treatment of FE colleges is no different from many other public bodies.
However, in view of all that the noble Baroness said about the previous Prime Minister’s comments about looking carefully at the matter, I will go back to see what further I can say by way of explanation for the status quo. I hope that in view of my comments, she will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I am grateful to the Minister for his careful looking and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for his support for the amendment. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
“Constitution of further education corporations
(1) Section 20 of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 is amended as follows.(2) After subsection (4) insert—“(5) An instrument must provide for the role of the Clerk to include providing advice to the corporation with regard to matters including—(a) the operation of its powers,(b) the conduct of its business,(c) matters of governance practice, and(d) general procedural matters.””
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, I remind the House of my interest in that my wife is a consultant at the Education and Training Foundation.
The very fact that we have been debating insolvency measures in the Bill underpins the responsibility of the boards of FE institutions. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, referred to the issue of financial competence and the initiatives being taken on governance, which are welcome. We should certainly pay tribute to the public-spirited citizens who undertake these roles, which have become ever more onerous in the past few years.
The noble Lord, Lord Nash, will know that my main experience is in the National Health Service. Between 2011 and 2014, I chaired the board of an NHS foundation trust. In many ways, the way that FE colleges and NHS foundation trusts have developed is similar. They are very similar institutions: they both provide a public service and are almost entirely dependent on public funding, although the routes by which it reaches the institutions are a little different, but increasingly they have to stand on their own two feet and, if you like, the buck stops with the board. That is very different from the way that FE used to be, with institutions that were owned by the local authority. It is the same for NHS foundation trusts.
However, there is a difference in governance. In the NHS there is essentially a two-tier structure. As chairman of the board of directors, I was appointed by the governing body, which was elected by the members of the foundation trust—in my case, 100,000 of them—who were essentially patients, members of the community and staff. As chairman of the board of directors, I had regularly to account to the governors in public meetings every other month and meet them individually as well, as did the chief executive—whose appointment had to be ratified by the governing body—the executive directors and the other non-executive directors. I and the non-executive directors had a term of office that was subject to reappointment, but only at the pleasure of the governing body.
We also had a senior independent director, a non-executive director to whom any member of the board could go if they were concerned about anything to do with the running of the board, the performance of the chairman or indeed the performance of the chief executive. When outside regulators came to review the performance of the organisation, they would be able to talk directly to the senior independent director. In addition, we had a highly qualified and experienced company secretary who was charged with ensuring that the trust acted within the law and exercised good governance, and acted as an adviser to the chairman on difficult issues, including the performance of the chief executive and the executive directors. This was not an issue in my case but if, for instance, I as chairman had decided along with my non-executive colleagues that we wished to remove the chief executive, it is to the company secretary that we would have gone, and he would have advised us on the way to do it. He would have done so without informing the chief executive, except where due process would at some point be required.
Looking at governance in further education, I just do not get the sense that there is that robustness. In too many colleges, the members of the governing body tend to be self-perpetuating—it was interesting to hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, about financial literacy among those governors—the principals often play too much of a role in deciding who the members of the governing body will be, and the board’s members are of course accountable to no one but themselves and do not meet in public. So there is very little transparency about the performance of the boards of FE institutions, and there has to be some suspicion that, at least at some colleges, they do not exercise challenge and scrutiny as much as they should.
This therefore makes the role of the clerk to the governing body very important. However, there is a problem, to which I referred at Second Reading. The Minister will know that one of the reasons we are having these insolvency provisions is that some institutions have got themselves into trouble financially. We also know that in some cases that is because principals have decided to undertake ventures that, if they were subject to proper scrutiny, I do not think they would have been allowed to. There is an instance in Birmingham where basically a principal was going on foreign adventures—there was a fashion in FE for colleges to try to open up and do deals abroad—without the kind of expertise and scrutiny that we are talking about, and almost all those adventures ended up in trouble. There is evidence that the college’s board of governors did not exercise due scrutiny and diligence when it came to those issues.
There was a paper by the former Learning and Skills Improvement Service identifying a number of issues with governance. It stated that in FE there can be too much polite consensus to avoid conflict, with insufficient challenge, a business focus at the expense of core educational performance, a taking on of big risks but not managing them, with the clerk being undervalued in being able to stimulate and facilitate good governance. This is where I come to the role of the clerk. These days, I do not think the word “clerk” aptly describes what needs to be done. Unfortunately, some principals seem to have mistaken the role of clerk for that of secretary, and that is a big problem. At national level, I have no argument at all with the Minister’s department, the FE commissioner or Ofsted, all of which have on a number of occasions given their support to professionally qualified clerks at a high level.
On the ground, there is a suspicion that that has not always been reflected. There is some evidence that, when clerks leave, it is not unusual to see the role offered at a lesser salary with lesser hours and for it to be offered internally, to an administrator. Unbelievably, there have been reports of examples of the principal’s secretary being asked to undertake that role. That is completely unacceptable, and I am surprised that the national regulators have not ruled on that. It reflects the fact that governing bodies are poor and simply do not challenge principals when they make decisions that are totally unacceptable, such as that one.
Lord Storey
My Lords, I support the amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has spoken wise words. In local government, the quality of officers advising elected members is hugely important—the independence of those officers and their ability to challenge and scrutinise with neither fear nor favour. In further education, we are talking about multimillion pound budgets. You have only to flick through the pages of the further education press to see some of the horrendous accounts of what has gone on in the past. I do not want to go into those lurid details; I shall leave it to people to have a look at them if they so desire.
What that suggests to me is that the governing body of those institutes has to be of the best possible calibre; it cannot be a friend of a friend, not wanting to offend the principal. It is often difficult to attract calibre governors, so the role of the clerk cannot be some sort of part-time lesser role; they have to be people who are confident in themselves. Those three words—“scrutiny, challenge, transparency”—are really important. This is the tail-end of Committee, but to get the Bill right is important. The points that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has made are also important. I hope that between now and Report we can look at this in a little more detail, because it is crucial.
Baroness Cohen of Pimlico
I support the amendment. I am new to the business of voluntary governorship in state-funded institutions. I have been fortunate for most of my working life to have been in organisations that had admirable company secretaries, who had the equally difficult task of standing up to chairmen and chief executives—but these were well-trained, qualified and well-paid people. The problem in all education is, of course, that anything that is not a teacher reads like an unmerited overhead.
I am not quite certain what I should propose as a remedy, but this point is key. Many of the messes that schools and further education institutions get into have to do with governance, and that has to do with a clerk who is not actually qualified and probably not properly paid.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I hesitate to speak because I can see that a Division is pending and it would be nice for us to be able to finish at just the right point, but I realised when my noble friend was speaking that I was that clerk. In an earlier career, I was the clerk of an FE college. The spectre of the buccaneering principals who were around in FE at that time came crowding back, and I felt I ought to share that with the Committee. The problem was that these institutions were very often the creatures of the local authority that owned and fronted them, and there were pressures at play. The principal wanted to be the person who was the main conduit to the local authority and would not brook any interference. Absent the principal, the company secretary, who was indeed a demon of great skill and ability to maintain her position in the structure, took over and ran the place very adequately. But with the growth of corporate structures and, now, the whole question of how that must be used to mature and operate organisations of some scale and scope, I would have thought there must be a way of ensuring that, when corporate structures such as companies are established, there has to be a company secretary, and that company secretary must fulfil at least the minimum standards required of those who operate in the private sector. So there may be a way forward.
I agree entirely with what my noble friend said: the pressure to keep those who are academics—and who should be academics—away from trying to do things that they are patently unable to do, just because they happen to occupy the position of principal or vice-principal, has been an enduring theme with those who have worked in the education sector at FE and HE level. It is only recently that appropriately qualified and suitably remunerated members of that profession have been operating in the way that they should. I support the amendment.
Lord Nash
My Lords, I recognise the very important role played by clerks as expert advisers to governing bodies of further education institutions, and I pay tribute to the contribution by clerks and governing bodies up and down the country. As the responsibilities of those bodies increase, we must also support the development of the capability and professionalism among clerks. As the Minister responsible for governors in schools, I can completely see the importance of this matter. That is why we support the Education and Training Foundation in the delivery of a new professional development programme for clerks to be rolled out this year. Sector representative bodies also deliver a range of activities to support clerks, including a very active clerks’ network and best-practice materials. The ETF is also supporting the increased professionalism of clerks through the improving clerk to company secretary programme to take account in changing college structures and clerks’ responsibilities, whereby clerks can attain company secretary qualifications. We are supporting chairs of boards of governors through the national leaders of governance programme, where experienced chairs mentor others who need support.
There is a well-established statutory requirement for the instrument of an FE institution to make provision for there to be a clerk, and for provision for the responsibilities of that role to be set out in the instrument. That is set out in Schedule 4 to the Further and Higher Education Act 1992. This means that the importance of the clerk’s role, which I know is recognised by members of this House, is also reflected in law.
While further statutory prescription in relation to duties and responsibilities of the clerk may appear attractive, I do not believe that it is the right approach in this case. I will elaborate. The amendment proposes a few high-level matters relating to advice that clerks should provide and, as proposed, overlooks certain features that would reasonably be expected to be an important part of any clerk’s role. These include, for example, independence from the senior management team at the institution and a duty to take appropriate action if the board, the chair or one of the committees appears to be at risk of acting outside their powers or to be proposing actions that may be unlawful.
The 1992 Act sets up high-level requirements for the instrument and articles, including a requirement for there to be a clerk and for the clerk’s responsibilities to be set out in the instrument. Since 2011, colleges have not required the consent of the Secretary of State to amend their instruments. The detailed content of the instrument, including the details of the responsibilities of the clerk, now largely rests with the governing body of the FE corporation rather than with Ministers.
In my view, the existing balance between the requirements set out in legislation and the responsibilities of the governing body is the right one. We should be very careful about removing from colleges the necessary flexibility that enables governing bodies to adapt and tailor their governance arrangements to fit the circumstances of their institution. That is particularly important in a sector as varied as further education. It is obviously important to guard against the possibility that greater prescription has the unintended effect of undermining the responsibility and thus the accountability of governing bodies. The careful balance set out in the current legislation in relation to matters of governance, including in respect of the role of the clerk, remains important going forward.
Principals do not appoint board members. Governors are appointed to the board by the board itself. A good principal will have a strong interest in having a capable body. When there is a material pre-existing relationship between the principal and a member of the board, it should be declared as part of the appointment process. The Association of Colleges’ model job description states that the clerk should be independent of the senior management team and should provide unbiased advice.
We do not think this amendment would add materially to the conduct of clerking or to governing bodies of FE colleges. We believe clerking is generally working well, and the quality of clerking has undoubtedly improved significantly in recent years. However, as I have spent part of the last four years attempting, I think with some success, to raise the importance and effectiveness of governance in schools, and in view of what noble Lords have said, I will go back and investigate their concerns and see what more we might be able to do in this regard, because it is important. Legislation may be a very blunt instrument, but I will go back to look at it further.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
I am very grateful to the Minister. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Technical and Further Education Bill
Monday 27th March 2017
(7 years, 7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Technical and Further Education Act 2017 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 107-I Manuscript amendments for Report, supplementary to the marshalled list (PDF, 56KB) - (27 Mar 2017)
16:00 - Division on Amendment 1 - Ayes: 244 / Noes: 190 - Amendment 1 agreed.
18:21 - Division on Amendment 17 - Ayes: 223 / Noes: 185 - Amendment 17 agreed.
19:23 - Division on Amendment 24 - Ayes: 164 / Noes: 166 - Amendment 24 disagreed.
“Financial support for students undertaking apprenticeships
(1) The Secretary of State must by regulations made by statutory instrument make provision for—(a) making a person undertaking a statutory apprenticeship, as defined under section A11 of the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009, a qualifying young person for the purposes of child benefit; and(b) extending the Higher Education Bursary provided for by section 23C(5A) of the Children Act 1989 to a person who is a former relevant child undertaking a statutory apprenticeship, as defined under section A11 of the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009.(2) Statutory instruments under subsection (1) are subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.”
Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)
My Lords, in the absence of noble Lords who have business other than the Technical and Further Education Bill to consider this afternoon, I shall move Amendment 1 and speak to other amendments in the group.
The proposed new clause was devised after debate in Committee and would enable families eligible for child benefit to receive it for children aged under 20 who are undertaking apprenticeships. It is slightly disappointing that it is necessary to debate the matter again on Report. The noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, offered to set up a meeting with Ministers from both the Department for Education and the Department for Work and Pensions, but I regret that no such meeting has materialised, so here we are. We have altered our approach in the amendment to call for the Secretary of State to use regulations to make provision to ensure that apprentices are regarded as being involved in approved education or training.
We are now just five days away from the creation of the Institute for Apprenticeships, the introduction of the apprenticeship levy and a changed landscape of technical education as the Government attempt to address the skills gap inherent in the economy. To achieve success in that, they have set the ambitious target of 3 million apprenticeship starts by 2020. I am certainly not critical of that target—it is better to aim high—but if it is to be reached, it cannot be in anyone’s interest for doors to be closed to young people keen to embark on an apprenticeship, but that is what is happening, at least for those from families reliant on some form of social security. In some circumstances, parents may prevent young people taking up apprenticeships because the economic consequences for the family of loss of benefit payments in various forms could be considerable.
This concerns a relatively small number of young people—primarily those from the most disadvantaged backgrounds—but it touches on a broader issue: that of apprentices being treated like second-class citizens in comparison with their peers who choose to pursue courses at further education colleges or universities. Apprentices are denied thousands of pounds in financial support available to college or university students, and are excluded from other means of support available to their counterparts in further education institutions. This is on the basis that they are employed and thus in receipt of wages.
It might be instructive for noble Lords who are unaware of it to learn that next week, the national minimum wage for apprentices aged under 19 increases to £3.50 an hour—considerably less than for other workers of the same age. Even then, as reported by the Low Pay Commission in January this year, 18% of apprentices said that they were being paid less than their legal entitlement. Even that legal entitlement, based on a 37-hour week, equates to about £6,900 a year—interestingly, precisely the maximum amount of the maintenance loan available to students living at home. The student year lasts only 30 weeks, leaving them able to work full-time, should they choose, for the remaining 22 weeks—apart, that is, from the paid employment that many students are already forced to find during term time. Those earnings do not disqualify a student’s family from benefits, and the amendment is intended to achieve parity of esteem of all post-school young people who are setting out on a route of learning designed to equip them with the skills for a productive working life.
However, in addition to being ineligible for Care to Learn childcare grants, unlike further education students, some apprentices also missed out on travel discounts, council tax exemptions and student bank account packages. The reason is that apprenticeships are not classed as approved education or training by the Department for Work and Pensions, but apprentices must spend at least 20% of their contracted work hours off the job—or at least, they will after 1 April—which means at a college or with a training provider. What is an apprentice supposedly doing in such situations if he or she is not receiving approved education or training?
In the case of apprentices who live with their parents, the families could lose out by more than £1,000 a year in child benefit. Families receiving universal credit could lose more than £3,000. Why should families suffer as we seek to train young people desperately needed to fill the skills gaps that I mentioned earlier? University students receive assistance from a range of sources. Apprentices currently do not receive many of these benefits and are continually excluded from definitions of approved learners. How can an apprenticeship not be regarded as an approved form of learning? The Bill is aimed at unifying apprenticeships with technical education, yet obstacles have been placed in a way that will prevent the aim being fully achieved. The system must be changed so that apprentices and students are treated equally, and there is genuine parity of esteem between all educational and apprenticeship routes.
Baroness Cohen of Pimlico (Lab)
My Lords, I support the amendment. The Bill has cross-party support; it is potentially the greatest engine of social change that can be imagined and rights the injustice of the many years when technical education has been regarded as much less important than formal academic education. The effect of cancelling benefit for 16 to 18 year-olds embarked on apprenticeships will be to deter a small but important group of these young people from taking them up. Since the apprenticeship is not just education but a route into a job, this would be entirely wrong. In families with very low incomes, budgets are extremely delicate. Allowing one child to do an apprenticeship when they are not fully funded could damage the rest of the family and is therefore not likely to happen. I therefore hope that the Government will think again on this.
I will also speak to Amendments 14 and 16, which provide slightly different versions of guarantees if trainers go bust. I remind the House that I am chancellor of BPP University, with 2,000 degree-level apprenticeships, and my sister company has 2,000 16 to 19 year-old apprenticeships. It is not very difficult for long, well- established training operations to contribute to a contingency fund, if that is what is wanted, or to get a bank guarantee. I am thinking of new people who may want to come into this field, whom I believe the Government want to encourage. I suspect that having to contribute to a contingency fund, which is difficult and requires special provision, is possibly a barrier to entry, whereas producing a bank guarantee is—as my noble friend Lord Watson said—a well-understood route and I believe a lot of banks know how to do this. I would, therefore, much prefer any measure to require providers to produce a bank guarantee rather than a contribution to a contingency fund, or their own private contingency fund.
Baroness Wolf of Dulwich (CB)
My Lords, I also support the amendment and share its concern for the small but important group of young people who may be denied an apprenticeship. I will also speak to Amendment 16 tabled in my name and lend strong support to the general argument that we must provide financial guarantees and security to young people in the training field. I declare an interest that, as a member of the Sainsbury review, I was part of the panel which lies behind other parts of the Bill. I also strongly welcome the provisions to ensure that, should an FE college fail, special arrangements will be in place to make sure that students are looked after; that clearly set out procedures will swing into place; and that they will not just go to the bottom of the list after creditors, in the hands of administrators whose responsibilities and skills are essentially commercial. It is absolutely right that the Government have recognised this as their duty. It is their duty because, by funding young people and adults, encouraging them to enter training—and, in very many cases, to take out loans—the Government have implicitly promised that an institution to which they are lending money will give a good-quality education and will endure to see students through. The introduction of loans is a mammoth change and lies under much of the Government’s conviction that they need to change the HE regime. We must recognise that the Government’s ambition for huge increases in adult learner loans changes the environment in which young people and adults are studying and training.
Many noble Lords will know that failures are not unheard of—one wishes that they were. In the United States, huge companies have gone under, leaving many thousands of people with loans. These are not all at degree level; they are often at associate-degree level, which comprises two-year courses. On the one hand, therefore, it is very welcome that we have these provisions for FE colleges, but, on the other, I find myself completely unable to understand why equivalent protections should not be introduced for people training and studying in institutions which are not FE colleges and which also offer—and are being funded to offer—technical education. Many of these people have loans, and many of them are not mobile. The loans represent large sums of money for them, and they have made big changes in their lives to undertake this form of training. Again, it is tremendously welcome that the Government are putting so much effort and money into technical education. However, we have to ensure that the promise, encouragement and—sometimes—pressure to enter technical education is matched by a guarantee that the Government will deliver on their implicit promise.
Against this background, the repeated failures—that is what it has felt like—in recent weeks of a number of private training providers should make us aware that this is not a hypothetical situation. Like the noble Lord, Lord Watson, I was not very convinced by the letters from the department and the SFA. My noble friend Lady Watkins will speak in a moment. She and I had a very productive meeting with the Bill team. We appreciated their willingness to listen to our arguments. However, the letters that we received seemed to amount to a combination of the statements, “We are muddling through” and “There aren’t very many of them anyway”. That is not adequate at a time when we are embarking on a major rethink—and, I hope, a major expansion—of technical education.
In Committee, the Minister noted that you cannot treat private businesses as though they were public organisations. That is indeed true. Although many private training providers are small charities, many others are commercial organisations, as the noble Baroness, Lady Cohen, said. Many of them survive entirely on government contracts and are very small. That is why I have proposed a mechanism which I think would be entirely appropriate for this situation. We have heard about it already, and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, for first bringing it to my attention. It is well established, costs the Government nothing and would not cost providers anything that would begin to wipe out their margins. It is well and frequently adopted in other sectors and I cannot see why it should not apply here.
That brings me to my final point—the idea that we do not need to worry about this matter because only a few people are involved and the risks of failure are quite small. Even if the figure is less than 1%, that is hundreds of people a year on current levels of loans. If we have the expansion that we hope for, thousands of people a year will be affected. To give a medical analogy, if 1% of life-changing operations were cancelled and eventually lost because people got older and were never able to have their operations and had to go back to the bottom of the waiting list, I do not think that anybody would find that acceptable. Therefore, I strongly hope that the Minister will assure us that at Third Reading he will be able to bring concrete proposals to this Chamber and that we will see the same acceptance of the importance of looking after students in the entire technical education sector that we so happily see in further education colleges.
Lord Storey (LD)
My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 14 and to Amendment 16, which is linked to that, and will say a few words in support of Amendment 1.
It is interesting that a large part of the Bill is about insolvency—what happens if a college becomes insolvent. Yet it does not say very much about what happens if a poor student, through no fault of their own, becomes insolvent because of debt problems arising from the fact that their college no longer exists. We also encourage private providers—I say right at the outset that there are many good private providers, who have an exemplary record and are very worth while. Sadly, however, some providers have caused immeasurable harm to young people, and we need to ensure that there is a proper safety net for those young people.
Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)
My Lords, I support Amendment 16, to which I have added my name. It is very clear that many young people who take out government-backed loans believe that they give a quality indication to the provider, to which they then enrol to study. It seems extremely unfair that, in the event of such a provider becoming unable to continue, they would go to the back of the queue for the repayment of their loan.
When meeting the Bill team, who have been extremely helpful, we heard evidence that everybody tries to find an alternative provider so that the student can complete their programme, and that is clearly the most desirable outcome. The most undesirable outcome is if a student is unable to complete the programme and is left with debt, even if that debt does not have to be repaid immediately. Our amendment is intended to protect students in such circumstances so that their loan is repaid by a provider if they cannot find an alternative provider with which to complete their course.
We want to encourage people to undertake this kind of technical education, and I commend the Government on their Bill because it will encourage young people to do far more local-based technical education and should get both young and more mature people into work, which, after all, is the overall aim of the Bill. Therefore, I hope that the Minister will be in a position to take this matter away and to come back with something at Third Reading that will protect students in the future.
Lord Aberdare (CB)
My Lords, I too will speak mainly on Amendment 16, spoken to by my noble friend Lady Wolf, although I regret that I am not able to support it, so I hope that that is not the end of a beautiful noble friendship.
I am concerned that Amendment 16 would make it harder for independent training providers, which provide a significant proportion of the technical education we so desperately need, to compete on fair terms with FE colleges. I should perhaps declare an interest as having been an independent training provider in the distant past.
The effect of the amendment as worded would be to increase the price of such courses offered by commercial and charitable contract-funded providers in order to cover the cost of underwriting the loans made to students with an external financial institution. This would mean that the cost incurred by the vast majority of loan recipients, who will not suffer curtailment of their studies due to insolvency, would increase, even if only by a relatively small percentage. It might also discourage high-quality independent providers from offering loan-funded courses, not just because of the extra cost but because of the extra administration and bureaucracy involved, thereby limiting the range of options available to learners and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Cohen, said, providing a barrier to entry for potential new providers.
The amendment would not apply to FE colleges and other bodies covered by the insolvency regime being created by the Bill, so learners at FE colleges, which might be at least as likely to fail, would be protected by a special insolvency regime without any extra cost.
FE college loan-funded courses already have the additional benefit of being exempt from VAT, so most independent providers are already likely to face a 20% cost disadvantage. Apart from that, the cost and complexity of setting up the sorts of schemes proposed in Amendments 14 and 16 seem likely to considerably outweigh their effectiveness or value. If some special provision for independent training providers were needed, it would surely be better to take a similar approach to that proposed for colleges based on government underwriting, as I believe has happened in practice in the past. Of course, in some cases, independent training providers may even be partly owned by further education colleges, as was the case with the provider First4Skills, which was 60% owned by the City of Liverpool College and had to call in the administrators. I am not clear how the amendment would address a situation such as that.
Finally, I know that many independent training providers would be happy to help put a clear mechanism in place so that learners could easily transfer to another provider if their existing provider failed. For all those reasons, I believe that the amendment is not the right way forward.
Baroness Pidding (Con)
My Lords, noble Lords may remember that I spoke some weeks ago on this Bill at Second Reading and described the challenges that the UK labour market will face in the coming years and decades. Such times need flexible legislation, so as not to tie the hands of government, the UK labour market and private providers. I believe that it would be a mistake to complicate and overlegislate, and then expect any improvement on the current system.
I agree with the sentiment of Amendments 14 to 16. It ought to be our duty to make sure that students are not left stranded after provider failure, through no fault of their own. However, it is my fear that these amendments may do the very opposite of their well-meant intention. I am particularly concerned by Amendment 14, explicitly subsection (3). I want to stress that however well intentioned it is to demand that private providers set contingency funds that can be used only for the purposes outlined in subsection (2), it risks placing additional financial commitments and burdens on providers unnecessarily. It would also, inevitably, deter excellent private providers from offering loan-funded courses, given these extra commitments.
Given that the Government have made a commitment to helping students affected by provider failure by providing them with alternative providers, it is my belief that this well-intentioned legislative burden is not necessary. It will simply overcomplicate the system and deter private providers from offering excellent qualifications and training.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Lord Nash) (Con)
My Lords, I am very pleased to be able today to speak about this legislation, which will help lay the foundations for transforming technical and further education, ensuring that all our young people have the same opportunities to travel as far as their talents may take them, move to a lifetime of sustained employment and provide the skills that British business needs. I am grateful for the remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady Cohen. I share her sentiment: this Bill is the greatest engine of social change that can be imagined, or at least we hope that it will be. I also express my thanks to noble Lords for their continuous engagement in the Bill, which, as the noble Baroness said, has all-party support.
In Committee, we had some very interesting discussions on some of the broader aspects of the Bill, and on the operation and delivery that will turn this legislation into reality. My ministerial colleague Robert Halfon and I have found this scrutiny extremely helpful in refining our thinking for this next stage of the legislation—the transition. Minister Halfon was looking forward to being able to join today’s discussion, as he has done previously, but unfortunately has been called away as he needs to participate in the public sector apprenticeships debate.
I turn now to the first group of amendments, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Watson and Lord Hunt. I welcome the sentiment behind this amendment: that young people who choose to take up an apprenticeship should not be financially disadvantaged and that, in particular, young people who leave care should be encouraged to enter apprenticeships. I believe, however, that we have already established sufficient safeguards and support to deliver these aims. Following a 3% increase in October last year, the national minimum wage for apprentices is now set to rise again to £3.50 an hour from April this year. Most employers pay more than this minimum. The most recent Apprenticeship Pay Survey, in 2016, estimated that the average gross hourly pay received by level 2 and 3 apprentices in England is £6.70 an hour. Moreover, apprentices receive training which, together with their paid employment, sets them up for increased earnings in the future.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
I wonder whether the Minister is going to respond to the point I made about apprenticeship pay. At the beginning of the year, the Low Pay Commission reported that 18% of apprentices were not getting even the national minimum wage.
Lord Nash
The noble Lord has raised that before. As we discussed at that time, it is illegal to pay below the minimum wage. We and HMRC are focused on ensuring that it does not happen. We all share the noble Lord’s concern about this. I assure him that we will do everything we can to stamp out such practices.
One of the core principles of our reforms is that an apprenticeship is a genuine job. As such, apprentices are treated accordingly in the benefits system. Child benefit is intended to provide financial support to parents to help with the extra costs of raising a dependent child. It is payable to parents until the end of the academic year in which their child turns 16. After that, payment can be claimed for children up to the age of 20 if they are in approved education or training. From April this year, undertaking an apprenticeship at minimum wage will pay more than five times the maximum child benefit rate. Therefore, an apprentice’s parents are not eligible for child benefit for supporting that employed young person. These rules have been a long-standing feature of the welfare system.
Moving to paragraph (b), on extending the higher education bursary to statutory apprentices, while I understand the intentions behind the proposal, it is not correct to equate being on an apprenticeship to being in higher education, where a student is making a substantial investment in their education and has appropriate access to student finance. Apprenticeships, by contrast, are real jobs and those undertaking them are employees who earn a wage, unlike participants in HE who are students and treated as such by the benefits system. Although apprentices generally spend a fifth of their time in training, it is part of the minimum wage regulations that they are paid while undertaking that training, so I cannot share the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Watson, that the training equates to being in HE. They are still being paid.
Consequently, our focus continues to be on ensuring that there are incentives for employers to recruit care leavers as apprentices. An additional £1,000 is paid to employers who take on a care leaver as an apprentice, as well as their training providers. Furthermore, the funding system ensures that, for all care leavers aged under 25, the full training costs related to undertaking an apprenticeship are met by the Government in recognition of their particular vulnerabilities.
I hope that I have provided sufficient reassurance that reflects that apprenticeships are real jobs, pay a wage that is more than sufficient to offset any household income reductions through the loss of child benefit, and are funded to ensure accessibility for care leavers.
Amendments 14, 15A to 15C and 16 concern the protection of students at independent training providers in the event of their closure. I am sympathetic to the intention behind these amendments that the interests of learners must be at the heart of the system.
Turning to the detail of Amendment 14, I think that it will be helpful also to consider Amendment 15, which would amend it. As currently drafted, Amendment 14 would apply only to further education bodies, which the Bill defines as further education corporations and specialist designated institutions in England and Wales, and sixth form colleges in England. Private providers would not fall under the scope of this amendment, although we need to consider that Amendments 15A to 15C would make this change so that private providers are within scope of the amendment.
As noble Lords will be aware, the main purpose of this part of the Bill is the introduction of a special administration regime which will prioritise the needs of learners. It places an overriding obligation on the education administrator to take the action that best avoids or minimises disruption to the studies of existing learners. This will apply to all students—fee paying as well as non-fee paying. The special objective focuses, rightly, on giving learners the opportunity to continue and complete their studies having set out on their journey to gain new skills or qualifications. That is what individuals will be most concerned to achieve rather than the repayment of any money for which they have not received provision.
Of course, fee-paying students typically pay for their courses in stages, as they do via advanced learner loans, and quite often in arrears, so it is likely that the student will not be significantly—if at all—out of pocket. But, through the special objective, the education administrator will be working to identify opportunities for learners to complete their studies, whether by rescuing the college or transferring the individual to another provider, meaning that the learner can continue on their study path.
We know that noble Lords are interested in the idea of a fund or guarantee to support students in the event of private provider failure, especially where they have paid money in advance. Following recent cases highlighted in the press. I will now say a little about what we are doing to provide support for those affected. Our priority is to support learners whose providers have ceased trading. I want to make it clear that we will take every step we can to ensure that learners are given the opportunity to complete their studies, be that with their current provider if possible or with another provider. In the rare cases where providers fail, the Skills Funding Agency and the Student Loans Company work together to identify solutions for any individuals affected. They make direct contact with learners to inform them of the help they will get. I am happy to say that this is already current practice and is an integral part of the contractual arrangements between the funding agency and the provider. There are many cases where those learners who are affected are successfully transferred to alternative providers.
Students’ new providers may receive funding to deal with necessary administrative costs relating to transferred learners to ensure that they are not out of pocket. We have taken further action to protect learners due to recent cases of private providers going into liquidation. For those who have not completed their course, and while we work to make transfers happen, they will not be required to start repaying their loans during the 2017-18 tax year.
I shall now look at the detail of Amendment 16. I believe, as a number of noble Lords have said, that we should approach the regulation of independent private training providers with caution. These are mostly private profit companies and, unlike the further education bodies which are the subject of this part of the Bill, they are not part of the statutory FE sector and are created by their promoters and owners with no hand from government. They are not subject to the same intervention arrangements as the statutory sector. Furthermore, while they may receive state funding, that funding does not have the same breadth of purpose as the funding for the statutory sector and is paid on a different basis. In particular, the funding is contractual and normally paid in instalments linked to attendance, which limits the financial risk which this amendment is seeking to address.
There are around 400 private providers, of which the vast majority are financially sustainable. I am delighted to join with the noble Lord, Lord Storey, in his comment that many of them provide very good quality education.
Providers must be listed on the SFA’s register of training organisations to receive advanced learner loans funding, while successful approval includes due diligence to assess providers’ capacity to deliver contracts to the required standard and to determine whether they are financially robust. Providers delivering only loan-funded provision must have a financial health assessment rated as good or outstanding. Once on the register, the SFA closely monitors providers’ financial health and achievement rates, with providers having to comply with robust funding and performance rules.
However, I accept that there could be rare cases where a private provider fails and students suffer as a result. Although learners choose their private provider as consumers, “buyer beware” may be thought an unduly harsh response to that predicament. That is the concern which noble Lords are seeking to address through this amendment. I understand the concern, but at the moment I am not convinced that the imposition of significant new regulation on a fully private part of the sector is either a necessary or proportionate response to it.
As far as I am aware, a banking or insurance market for the guarantees referred to in the amendment does not exist and would have to be developed. We do not know whether and how fast this might happen, or at what cost. However, much more significantly, the nature of this sort of financial protection is that it puts a burden on the vast majority of healthy providers, where it is not needed, as well as on those few where it is. In aggregate terms, it would mean substantial sums of money, much of it originally public money, moving from the education sector to the insurance and financial sector, which is not necessarily what the taxpayer would want for the sake of a safety net in very rare cases of failure. Moreover, as the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, said, it would lead inevitably to an increase in the cost of these courses.
Private providers and their representatives will also have views on this of course, and there has not been the opportunity to seek them or reflect on these matters since the amendment was laid, so we are by no means ready to accept that legislation is an appropriate response to the risk that noble Lords have helpfully highlighted. However, I would be delighted to discuss this matter further with the noble Lord, Lord Storey. We are looking into this carefully, but we need to take proper time to consider our policy response, which may not require legislation.
I will now discuss Amendment 20. I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Watson and Lord Hunt, for this amendment. I understand their concerns, but I hope that I can reassure them that this amendment is not necessary. The Government are doubling investment in apprenticeships because we know that they provide employers with the skills they need to grow their businesses and benefit the economy. Through the funds raised by the apprenticeship levy, we will be able to invest twice what was spent in 2010-11 in apprenticeships by 2019-20.
The institute’s responsibilities include ensuring that the quality of apprenticeships available to employers reflects employer needs and the Government’s priority for apprenticeships to be a high-quality programme. It will need to work closely with the Department for Education, employers and other stakeholders to make that happen. Its responsibilities also include advising on the pricing of apprenticeship standards to ensure that government funding supports the delivery of high-quality training. The institute will work with employers and providers to understand the cost and value of apprenticeships to inform their advice. The institute does not have responsibility for the apprenticeship budget or how much of it is spent. This resides with the Secretary of State for Education and her department’s agencies.
The Government are fully committed to comprehensive investment in apprenticeships. The apprenticeships budget is set at the spending review. That provides certainty on the forward spending profile for the duration of the Parliament, as well as ensuring affordability of the programme and that the taxpayer receives value for money.
Tying a commitment on spending explicitly to the levy receipts could mean adverse funding consequences for the programme as a whole. The 2016 Autumn Statement revised down the projections for income from the apprenticeship levy over the next five years, but this does not impact on the agreed budget that the department already has as part of the spending review settlement. For example, the provisional budget for spending on apprenticeships in 2019-20 for England and the devolved Administrations totals in excess of £2.9 billion, versus the projected levy income of £2.8 billion. Having certainty over the funding for apprenticeship training is preferable to directly linking the funding on a year-by-year basis to the wider performance of the economy. As described earlier, levels of spending will be determined by the choices that employers make.
I hope that noble Lords feel reassured enough by my responses to these amendments not to press them.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response and all noble Lords who have participated in this debate. On the three amendments that carry my name—our amendments to Amendment 14, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Storey—the Minister said that we will have an opportunity to consider that further. That is to be welcomed.
On Amendment 20, I feel the Minister rather overegged the pudding. I said that I do not think the levy will be undersubscribed or short of applications. He seemed to be saying that this would depend on monetary fluctuations. The fluctuation that would concern me would be, if not enough applications for the fund came forward, what would then happen to any so-called surplus that would remain? I am not unhappy with his response. I am optimistic that the levy will be fully taken up.
I am not so optimistic about the Minister’s comments on Amendment 1 and apprentices being described as approved learners, as I think they should be. He mentioned apprentices as being employed and receiving—or at least being entitled to receive—the national minimum wage of £3.50, but that is the figure that will apply next month. For any other worker aged up to 18 the rate will be £4.05; for those aged between 18 and 20 it will be £5.60. Despite that very low level, apprentices are paid less than their peers who, for whatever reason, are not in apprenticeships but are working. I do not think that argument carries a great deal of weight.
The Minister also said that he is not willing to support extending the higher education bursary of £2,000 for apprentices to those leaving care. Surely any barriers to young people taking up apprenticeships should be removed or at the very least mitigated. On those two issues, the Minister did not show any willingness to do so. He said there were sufficient safeguards to ensure that apprentices and their families do not lose out by dint of the young person taking up an apprenticeship. That is palpably not the case. Further education colleges have already drawn to the attention of the Association of Colleges a number of cases of would-be apprentices being dissuaded from applying for—or, having applied for, then taking up—an apprenticeship when the financial consequences become clear. That is through pressures within their families. Whatever the rates in place, there are not sufficient safeguards. That deters some young people from taking up apprenticeships. That they are not regarded as approved learners is surely a glaring loophole which the Government must at some stage move to close.
I regret that the Minister has demonstrated no willingness even to acknowledge that there is an issue, far less a willingness to find a means of resolving it. We regard that as unsatisfactory. For that reason, I wish to the test the opinion of the House on Amendment 1.
“Report on quality outcomes of completed apprenticeships
(1) The Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education must report on an annual basis to the Secretary of State on quality outcomes of completed apprenticeships.(2) A report under subsection (1) must include information on—(a) job outcomes of persons who have completed an apprenticeship;(b) average annualised earnings of persons one year after completing an apprenticeship;(c) numbers of persons who have completed an apprenticeship who progress to higher stages of education;(d) satisfaction rates of persons who complete an apprenticeship with the quality of that apprenticeship; and(e) satisfaction rates of employers which hire persons who have completed an apprenticeship, with the outcome of that apprenticeship.(3) The Secretary of State must lay a copy of any report under subsection (1) before each House of Parliament.”
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
My Lords, again, this is an issue that we considered in Committee. Indeed, it was also discussed in another place. But the fact that we continue to seek a greater level of reporting surely makes it clear to the Minister that we do not accept the responses given by him and his honourable friend the Skills Minister, Mr Halfon. We do not resubmit amendments without believing that they would enhance the Bill. I stress that there is no political point-scoring involved in amendments such as this. The Minister will know that when his arguments convince us—as, indeed, from time to time they do—we do not return to matters that have been taken as far as they usefully can be. But we do not believe that to be the case here.
The amendment is largely self-explanatory so I shall not rehearse the arguments that I used previously, but quality of outcomes will be absolutely key to the extent to which the skills gaps in the economy are able to be filled by UK workers trained for these jobs— initially in the decade ahead but also far beyond that point. The duties that would be placed on the institute by Amendment 2 are hardly onerous. The Minister stated in Committee that they are unnecessary as the Enterprise Act 2016 will require the institute to report on its activities annually. Of course that is the case—but not to the level of detail that we seek here.
The institute is about to come into being and will need some time to find its feet. But the Department for Education’s own website states that, according to the Bill, the institute will ensure, inter alia,
“high quality standards and assessment plans, which will lead to high quality apprenticeships”.
The extent to which the institute is successful will depend on assessing the job outcomes of those completing apprenticeships and the earnings that will result from those or from moving on to higher education. The rationale for the amendment is to go further than the basic reporting required by the Enterprise Act and to make public the extent to which both apprentices and employers believe that training and levels of employability are being strengthened and deepened as a result of the new landscape.
Surely the Secretary of State would expect nothing less than an annual report from the institute on the quality of outcomes from completed apprenticeships. So we ask, why not have that in the Bill? It follows, particularly when the Government are in pursuit of their target of 3 million starts by 2020, that Parliament should have the opportunity to receive and debate the report. If the Government want quality rather than quantity to be the driver, as they say they do, they should welcome the maximum amount of transparency in that regard. The fact that the amendment will require the institute to collect information from the department should be a positive and should be welcomed by the Government as a sign that it is meeting expectations. That is what Amendment 2 is designed to achieve.
Amendment 3 also requires reporting by the institute. I hope that the Minister will not again tell noble Lords that it is not necessary. Noble Lords will note that we are not asking the institute to do anything more than request from the department information which the department already holds. The purpose of doing so is to ensure that the institute is achieving success in turning round the situation identified by the Government’s Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission, as it was then known, a year ago. It warned that the Government’s drive on apprenticeships was failing to deliver for young people and pointed out that almost all the recent increase in apprenticeship starts related to people over the age of 24, with the number of young people starting apprenticeships showing little change since 2010.
It also noted that, unlike academic courses, youth apprenticeships typically do not represent a step up. Most A-level-age apprentices do GCSE-level apprenticeships and almost all—97%—university-age apprentices do apprenticeships at A-level equivalent or lower. The commission also highlighted that most youth apprenticeships are in sectors such as health and social care, business administration, and hospitality and catering, which are characterised by low pay and, often, poor progression.
The Commission on Social Mobility also welcomed the Government’s efforts to improve the quality as well as the number of apprenticeships but said that there needed to be a real focus on improving the quality of apprenticeships for young people. It called on the Government to increase the number of young people doing higher apprenticeships to 30,000 by 2020 compared to the present 4,200 19 to 24 year-olds. It also called for a UCAS-style apprenticeship gateway that would give young people much better information on what apprenticeships are available—and, crucially, where they might lead.
Some advantages will be identified as a result of the establishment of the institute, but throughout the passage of the Bill here and in another place we have heard many fears expressed that the drive to 3 million apprenticeship starts risks double or even triple-counting some apprentices. There is a need for improved data transparency so that it is clear how many apprenticeships the starts data relate to. That is what the amendment seeks to achieve and why it makes the connection with those in receipt of the pupil premium, so as to be able to monitor the effect that completed apprenticeships have on young people’s lives in comparison with their more advantaged counterparts.
The Government consistently say that they are committed to social mobility. On that basis, I would say to them that they should embrace this opportunity to demonstrate the success of that aim. I beg to move.
Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)
My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 21 in this group, which is in my name and those of my noble friend Lord Storey and the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, and add my support to Amendments 2 and 3 to which the noble Lord, Lord Watson, has just spoken. Our amendment came out of discussions with the CBI, which has a great deal of interest and expertise in the future of apprenticeships—indeed, its engagement is vital to the success of this scheme. It expressed the concerns of its members that the new institute will need monitoring and overview, particularly in its early days.
The amendment aims to ensure that there is regular reporting back to the Secretary of State on the quality of apprenticeships and technical education, calling for,
“a response … containing any actions to be taken as a result”.
Those “any actions” are particularly important because having action plans in response will surely make the difference. There needs to be ongoing communication. There is a weight of responsibility on the institute and high expectations that it will be a real engine for change and will counter generations of undervaluing practical, work-based skills. We need to ensure that there is transparency and accountability from the Government over the quality of technical and further education, and this amendment would help to ensure that the very welcome focus on the technical and further education sector is not lost after the Bill passes into law. I look forward to a positive response from the Minister.
Baroness Morris of Yardley (Lab)
My Lords, I support these amendments. They are very reasonable and it is difficult to find too many reasons for opposing them other than bureaucracy. When you weigh it up, the argument comes down very much on the side of the amendments on this occasion and not on the side of bureaucracy.
This is primarily about delivering good-quality apprenticeships for young people and adults. We all know that one of the challenges is to change the public discourse about apprenticeships and vocational training, and we are going to have to work really hard if that is to happen. When I look back at the reforms in schools over the past two decades, one of the changes that enabled us to have a more effective public discourse and empower people to ask the right questions, both for members of their own family and in general, was the availability of data. I hear good-quality conversations now from parents, teachers and young people about education, and that is because they have the information to ask the questions and have the debate.
However, I do not think it is there with apprenticeships and technical education. We do not have it yet, and we have a responsibility, if this system is to work, to build up the data and language so that the public can have a proper conversation and monitor what is going on with apprenticeships. Certainly in the medium term, this amendment would help deliver that. It would put information in the public domain every year, and in time, if not immediately, that would lead to discussion and debate. That has to be good for raising the profile of this area of education as well as holding the institute to account for what it is delivering.
I accept that entirely, but also want to emphasise a different point. Has the Minister wondered whether this does not in some way reflect the annual HMCI report, which is laid before Parliament and on which there is always a public debate? It gets on the “Today” programme, bits of information get into the newspapers and the media, and it becomes part of the national conversation that we have about schools. So having this information in the public domain is the right thing to do for accountability. But it would also help with the cultural change that we have to bring about to have a public debate about this area of education. This is not unreasonable. I can see that in years to come—say, in five years’ time—we might want to review the minutiae and the details. I do not think we ought to be committed to this for ever and a day, but I cannot see that the value of starting the practice of having an annual report, monitoring progress and building up confidence and awareness, would be outweighed by any bureaucratic burden that it might place on organisations.
Lord Lucas (Con)
My Lords, I entirely agree with what the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Yardley, has just said. As the House knows, I run the Good Schools Guide. We do what we can to spread information about apprenticeships, but that is extremely difficult because the amount of information available is not good. For universities, by comparison, there is one single source of information. Now, I do not wish the Government to hire UCAS to do apprenticeships, because UCAS is an extremely difficult organisation to deal with and does not let data out to anyone, but something like it which was a single point of information would really help schoolkids and schools because ordinary teachers, let alone career teachers, do not have time to learn their way around 150 different university apprenticeships, let alone all the others. They need a coherent source of information. There is a habit among employers of letting information out only in the two weeks when they want to hire apprentices, rather than all around the year when potential apprentices want to be looking. They are not adjusted to that kind of marketing yet; they are recruiting in penny numbers rather than the tens of thousands, as universities are. There are all sorts of reasons why we need more information and support.
If you want to know where children have gone on to from school, schools will give you—at least English schools will; Scottish schools are more tiresome—a long list of university courses that their students have got on to. Nowhere can you find those data for apprenticeships. You can get data from the Higher Education Statistics Agency so you can publish information from there if you want, but there is no equivalent available for apprenticeships. That makes the whole business of upping the status of apprenticeships, and of technical education generally, much harder than it needs to be. So while I hold no brief for the exact drafting of the two Labour amendments, I am very much with the spirit of them.
On the amendment that followed from the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, there is scope for upping the prestige of the Institute for Apprenticeships in this way. It gives it that much more visibility in public, that much more right to comment and that much more right to be heard. At a time when there is going to be a lot of change, a lot of difficult decisions taken and a lot of need for what is going on to be in the public eye so that things that are not quite right get caught early and commented on early rather than being relegated to the pages of a few specialist magazines, an increase in prestige, as suggested in this amendment, is an excellent idea.
Lord Baker of Dorking (Con)
My Lords, we have not had very much information about what the annual statement from the Institute for Apprenticeships will be. As the institute is a quango, it will certainly produce an annual report—there is no question about that—and it is the usual practice of such reports to be debated in one way or another in the House. So we should accept that as a given, as it were.
As to the content of the report, I am encouraged by the fact that the quality of the directors will mean that it is not going to be a soft quango at all; it will be a very tough and well-informed one because they will be very aware of the fact that it is a great new departure in the education system to concentrate on apprentices, and they will want to ensure that the apprentice system that the country develops will be effective for both employers and students. So I expect the Institute for Apprenticeships to take an interest in nearly all the points mentioned in paragraph 1.
Whether that is needed in the Bill, I very much doubt. The best way to do it would probably be for the Secretary of State to formally write a letter to the chief executive of the institute when one is appointed, which I hope will be soon, indicating the range of information that the report should contain. That might be the best way out of it because the nature of the information will change over the years and you do not necessarily want to keep amending this part of the Bill. There are all sorts of other interesting things that the report should contain. I think the time has come for the Minister to make clearer what he thinks will be in the report. If he cannot do so today, perhaps he might be able to before Third Reading.
Lord Nash
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords and the noble Baroness for the amendments on reporting issues for the institute. I start by discussing Amendment 2, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Watson and Lord Hunt. Being able to assess how well the apprenticeship reform programme is achieving outcomes is of course essential. We need to know whether those undertaking apprenticeships or technical education qualifications are receiving the benefits that we would expect them to receive. To be able to do that, we obviously need the right information to help us make such an assessment. How the institute reports on its work is a topic that we discussed in Committee, but I remain convinced that the provisions already in the Bill are the right ones and that they are sufficient. I am sorry to disappoint the noble Lord, Lord Watson, but I therefore still do not believe that an amendment to the Bill is necessary to achieve that objective.
As I have said, the amendment was discussed in Committee and on Report in the other place, and in Committee in this place, and both the Minister of State for Apprenticeships and Skills and I have given sound justification for why it is not necessary. The institute will be required to report on its activities annually under the Enterprise Act 2016, and the report must be placed before Parliament. This will include information on how the institute has responded to the statutory guidance. In addition, the Enterprise Act includes provisions enabling the Secretary of State to request information from the institute on any topic.
The information set out in the amendment is already collected and published by the Secretary of State on the performance of the FE sector, which includes apprenticeships. In order to inform its activities, we would expect the institute to make good use of these data in its annual report when it assesses its performance and impact each year. Indeed, the shadow institute has explained in its draft operational plan that it,
“will make more use of learner, employer and wider economy outcome data when reviewing the success of standards”.
The institute’s core role is to oversee and quality-assure the development of standards and assessment plans for use in delivering apprenticeships and, we expect, from April next year, college-based technical education. Much of the information that the amendment proposes that the institute provide goes well beyond what is in scope of its remit. It would therefore be inappropriate for the institute to be asked to provide this type of information, and an unnecessary duplication of effort, given that this information is already collected and published by the Secretary of State. It is right that the Government collect and monitor that information, but where it falls outside the remit of the institute, it cannot reasonably be expected to provide it.
I turn to Amendment 3. Improving social mobility is integral to our apprenticeship reforms. The Institute for Apprenticeships is supporting this by helping to create a ladder of opportunity based on quality apprenticeships for people across the country. This ladder will ensure that, no matter where you are born or who your parents are, if you work hard and apply yourself, you can get ahead, succeed and shape your own destiny.
To support this aim it is of course critical that reporting measures are in place to enable us to assess how well the programme is achieving positive outcomes for a range of groups, including young people. I agree therefore with the spirit of the amendment, which proposes that such information is monitored, measured and reviewed regularly. However, I believe this amendment is unnecessary to achieve that.
We want an education system that works for everyone and drives social mobility by breaking the link between a person’s background and where they get to in life. Our defining challenge is to level up opportunity.
On 18 January, the Secretary of State for Education set out her three priorities: tackling geographic disadvantage; investing in long-term capacity in the system; and making sure that our education system as a whole really prepares young people and adults for career success. That is why the Government are delivering more good school places, making school funding fairer, strengthening the teaching profession, investing in improving careers education, transforming technical education and apprenticeships and opening up access to our world-class higher education system.
The Department for Education already publishes a range of data on apprenticeships through a number of reports broken down by starts, achievements, sector subject area, framework and standard, geography, gender, age, ethnicity and other diversity and disadvantage markers. These data are published as national statistics by the department and intended to provide transparency.
It would be more appropriate for the head of profession in the department to consider how and where breakdowns of disadvantage for apprenticeships data are published, in accordance with the code of practice for statistics set by the National Statistician. Additionally, the department is considering publishing new data and measures required to support the Secretary of State’s three priorities. The department is committed to publishing disadvantage measures such as the pupil premium, but needs to be free to find the most appropriate for each age group, programme and purpose.
Data are already helping our work to improve social mobility. For example, we know that 10.5% of those starting an apprenticeship in 2015-16 were from a black and minority background, and we have set an ambitious target to increase the apprenticeships started by people from BAME backgrounds by 20% by 2010. In addition, the department publishes 16-to-18 performance tables that cover classroom-based provision within schools and colleges. The 2016 performance tables were reformed to report five headline measures for students taking A-levels and vocational qualifications at a similar level. Further reforms are planned for 2017 performance tables. This includes extending the performance tables to include outcomes for students still studying at GCSE level and reporting outcomes for disadvantaged students, the definition of which is those who were in receipt of pupil premium funding in year 11. This will have the effect of linking key stage 4 pupil premium information with 16-to-19 outcomes. In 2018-19, we will include only GCSE-level equivalent qualifications that are on the technical certificates list.
The institute has been given a clearly defined role, in which it will be responsible for setting quality criteria for the development of apprenticeship standards and assessment plans—reviewing, approving or rejecting them; advising on the maximum level of government funding available for standards; and quality assuring some end-point assessments. While we expect data to be at the heart of the institute’s operations, the collection and publication of the data in this amendment goes beyond that remit and would create an undue burden on the institute, preventing it from carrying out the range of its other duties effectively.
I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, and the noble Lords, Lord Storey and Lord Lucas, for tabling Amendment 21. I completely agree with the spirit of the amendment, but there are already measures within the Bill that require the institute to monitor, measure, review and report on performance on a regular basis. I hope that after I have explained this further, the noble Lords and the noble Baroness will feel able not to press the amendment.
The institute will be a sustainable and long-term governance body that will support employers, individuals and others and will, among other things, uphold the quality of standards. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Baker for his comments on the strength of the board and its governance. Although the institute will have wide-ranging autonomy across its operational brief, and will be able to carry out its functions in relation to apprenticeships independently, the Secretary of State will retain strategic oversight of the reformed technical education system and will be able to give directions and statutory guidance where appropriate. Of particular relevance to this amendment, the Secretary of State may direct the institute to prepare and send to the Secretary of State, as soon as reasonably practicable, a report on any matter relating to its functions. It may be in that context that the idea to which my noble friend Lord Baker referred, of a letter, would be most appropriate.
The institute will be required to report on its activities annually under amendments made under the Enterprise Act 2016, and that report must be placed before Parliament. This will include information on how the institute has responded to the strategic guidance provided to it by the Secretary of State. While the institute will collect and report on relevant data and information, the Secretary of State will also continue to collect and publish a range of data on the performance of the FE sector, including apprenticeships. We would expect that, to inform its activities, the institute would make good use of those data when it assesses its performance and impact each year, and compiles its annual report. The Enterprise Act has made amendments that also include provisions enabling the Secretary of State to request information from the institute on any other topic that she deems appropriate in relation to their functions in relation to apprenticeships. Through this Bill, those provisions extend to technical education.
Therefore, although ultimately the Secretary of State will retain sufficient powers to ensure that government retains overall control in relation to technical education and will provide strategic guidance in respect of both apprenticeships and technical education, we would expect that, in the exercise of its functions, the institute would assess its performance and take action to address any issues identified. I am confident that, with the governance that it has managed to line up, that should happen.
I hope that noble Lords and the noble Baroness will feel reassured enough on the basis that I have explained not to press their amendments.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
I thank the Minister for his comprehensive reply—almost half the debate on this group of amendments was from his lips—which in some ways was not unencouraging. I welcome the contributions of two former Secretaries of State for Education, which are always informative. Although my noble friend Lady Morris was very supportive, the noble Lord, Lord Baker, was supportive only up to a point. He said that he did not believe this needed to be on the face of the Bill, but welcomed what Amendment 2 seeks to achieve. I noted that the Minister said it was likely that the request by the noble Lord, Lord Baker, for a letter from the Secretary of State would be taken up, and that is to be welcomed.
I also welcome the supportive contributions of the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, and the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. We are trying to make the point—expressed strongly by my noble friend Lady Morris—that the institute is just being established and needs to build its reputation. One way it will do that is by being as open and transparent as possible. The Minister said that collecting the information mentioned in Amendments 2 and 3 would be an undue burden. However, Amendment 3 provides only for the institute to ask the department for information which it already holds, which is not particularly burdensome.
The transparency mentioned in Amendment 2 is important because it will build confidence, as my noble friend Lady Morris said. Many employers and training providers—all further education colleges—as well as putative apprentices, are looking to the institute to raise the quality of apprenticeships. Why not demonstrate that as effectively as possible by both assembling and publishing the information mentioned in Amendment 2? The Minister said that the activities of the institute will be monitored, measured and reviewed but not reported on in the detail we have asked for. The Department for Education will have the information but apparently it does not want to give it to the institute to publish in its reports, which seems slightly odd.
Nevertheless, the Minister said quite a lot. I need to read his words in Hansard but he seemed to be mentioning quite a lot of benefit which will be seized on by those in the sector who have a genuine desire to make the Institute for Apprenticeships successful—to get it off to a good start and then build from there. There was certainly some positive input from the Minister, which I welcome. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“Establishment of an apprenticeship helpline
(1) Within six months of the coming into force of this Act, the Secretary of State must bring forward proposals for the establishment of a dedicated apprenticeship helpline to be overseen by the Institute.(2) The apprenticeship helpline in subsection (1) is to provide advice to persons who are undertaking, and persons who are interested in undertaking, an apprenticeship, on—(a) the technical routes operated by the Institute;(b) the courses available within these technical routes;(c) how to apply for the courses accredited by the Institute;(d) how to apply for any relevant financial support; and(e) how to complain about the quality of teaching or training.”
Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)
My Lords, in moving Amendment 4, I shall also speak to Amendments 7 and 19 in my name. Amendments 4 and 19 have the same intention and objectives. I support what the Government are trying to do and thank the Minister and his team for the meetings we have had and the information they have conveyed to us. I come at this from the point of view of constructive criticism and suggestions. Getting towards the target of 3 million apprenticeships in the lifetime of this Parliament is a formidable challenge and I welcome the Government setting it. We have said on many occasions, and the Minister has agreed, that although the target is there, the first priority has to be the quality of the apprenticeships. We must ensure that, in the minds of the public at large, potential apprentices, their parents and employers, this is a quality product and a worthwhile career path which would, in many cases, be an alternative to university. That emphasises the importance of maintaining the status and standing of apprenticeships.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Young of Norwood Green for submitting these amendments. I have added my name to Amendment 4. I do not think there is a great deal to add to what he has said, but some of this impacts on the arguments that I advanced on the previous group of amendments. It is about accessibility of information and careers advice on apprenticeships. It is also about the institute being seen as an open and accessible organisation. I think we all agree that we want it to meet its aims and to do so as successfully and quickly as possible. Asking it to provide information and to report to Parliament is not radical; it is about building the sort of confidence that I referred to on the previous group of amendments.
Monitoring how many small and medium-sized enterprises employ apprentices is also important because those employers will be key to the Government reaching their target of 3 million starts by 2020. Quite possibly this will be included in the list of categories mentioned by the Minister in his response to me on the last group of amendments, and perhaps he could say something about that in his reply. To some extent, SMEs have been the elephant in the room: they have not been referred to in our consideration of the Bill to anything like the extent they should have. They will play a very important part in apprenticeships—in small numbers, inevitably, and company by company—but overall they will make an important contribution.
I agree it is important that not just the number of apprenticeship starts but, as my noble friend Lord Young said, the number of employers taking on apprentices are listed. If those figures are not collected, how can the network being established by the institute be measured? The kind of information that I refer to will surely be collected, so I ask the Minister: why would the institute not make it publicly available and do so willingly?
I would like to add to what my noble friend Lord Young said by mentioning the apprentice contract and, to some extent, its status. He talked about complaints and the need for a helpline when apprentices need to pass on their concern about the quality of the apprenticeship being offered. There is no regulator in this sector and I ask the Minister whether the apprenticeship contract will be subject to the Consumer Rights Act 2015. The contract will be fully entered into by both parties, and that Act will play a part in the higher education sector as a result of the Bill before your Lordships’ House. A preliminary investigation led to universities being required for the first time to produce information on the cost of courses and so on, and that would be helpful. If the Minister cannot reply immediately, I shall be quite happy to receive a letter on the status of the apprentice contract and whether it will be subject to the Consumer Rights Act 2015.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I would certainly like an apprentice who is having a hard time getting what they want or a proper education, particularly in an SME, to be able to communicate that, and unless there is an established route for them to do so, as described in the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, it will be very difficult to ask someone to invent one. There needs to be someone the apprentice can talk to first; otherwise, it will be just too difficult and we will never get to know the quality of the apprenticeship. Anything that became a regular reporting mechanism might well take up a lot of time but not produce any good. However, something should be in place so that, when things are really going wrong, the person at the wrong end of that can have a voice. It seems to me that that is worth including.
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Young and Lord Watson, for tabling this group of amendments. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Young, in particular for his kind words relating to the intent of the Bill.
I turn first to consider Amendment 4. Ensuring that apprentices get the support they need to make the most of their apprenticeship and to progress into an engaging and rewarding career is essential. This amendment provides that the Secretary of State should bring forward proposals for the establishment of an apprenticeship helpline, managed by the Institute for Apprenticeships. Such an amendment is unnecessary as such a helpline already exists.
The National Apprenticeship Service operates a helpline that does two things: it provides advice to employers who wish to offer apprenticeships on all aspects of the scheme, including information on training providers, funding and recruitment; it also provides support to individuals who would like to apply for an apprenticeship and signposts them to vacancies on the GOV.UK site “Find an apprenticeship”. The helpline also provides help and support for apprentices and employers who have concerns or complaints. Teams within the National Apprenticeship Service investigate these where appropriate. If an apprentice raises concerns about employment law, the helpline refers them to ACAS if necessary. Advice on technical routes is currently offered by the National Careers Service. However, with the expansion of the remit of the Institute for Apprenticeships from April 2018, we will consider whether one service should be expanded to provide a one-stop shop for apprenticeships and technical routes.
I would now like to speak to Amendment 7. I welcome the sentiment behind the amendment: that small and medium-sized enterprises are encouraged and supported to employ apprentices and that these apprenticeships are of high quality. The noble Lord, Lord Young, is absolutely right that small and medium-sized employers are crucial to the success of our apprenticeship reform programme. After all, only 1.3% of employers will be paying the apprenticeship levy. To that end, the Department for Education is ensuring that smaller employers understand the benefits of apprenticeship training for their business, and that they take advantage of the support available, including the substantial contribution of 90% of the training and assessment costs for an apprenticeship.
To raise awareness and support smaller levy payers and non-levy payers, every local enterprise partnership has been given £5,000 to work on employer readiness for the levy and to support campaigns to raise the profile of apprenticeships. We are undertaking a wide range of communications and engagement activity to ensure that employers of all sizes are aware of how they can make the most of the opportunities presented by apprenticeships. The Get In Go Far campaign, for example, has focused specifically on helping small employers understand the benefits of apprenticeships.
However, on the noble Lord’s request that the institute has a specific role to monitor this, I believe that we have already established a remit for the institute which will ensure that apprenticeship standards and assessment plans are of high quality for apprentices employed in organisations of all sizes. The institute has been given a clearly defined role in which it will be responsible for: setting quality criteria for the development of apprenticeship standards and assessment plans; reviewing, approving or rejecting them; advising on the maximum level of government funding available for standards; and quality assuring some end-point assessments. While we expect the institute to engage with organisations such as local enterprise partnerships and local authorities, formally to monitor their performance would create an undue burden on the institute, preventing it from carrying out the range of its other duties effectively.
I hope I have provided sufficient reassurance that the Government recognise the importance of small and medium-sized employers and that the institute is already assuring the quality of all apprenticeship standards and plans, regardless of the size of employer.
I turn finally to Amendment 19 in this group. There is evidence that, in the past, some apprentices have not been clear on what their apprenticeship entitles them to and employers do not always understand their responsibilities towards their apprentices. Ensuring that all parties involved in an apprenticeship have a clear understanding of their roles and responsibilities is essential for it to be a success.
However, an amendment is not necessary to ensure this outcome. Section A5 of the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009, which was inserted by the Deregulation Act 2015, provides that an apprenticeship agreement is an employment contract. It follows that all the safeguards which apply to employment contracts also apply to apprenticeship agreements. In addition, since the introduction of apprenticeship standards, we have required that apprenticeship commitment statements be signed by the apprentice, the employer and the provider at the outset of the apprenticeship. If the apprentice is under 18, it should be signed by a parent or guardian. This is required through the Skills Funding Agency funding rules.
The apprenticeship commitment statement sets out details of the apprenticeship and covers three areas: the name of the standard the apprentice is following and the start and end dates; the training that will be undertaken by the apprentice and who will deliver it; and the roles and responsibilities of the parties involved. For example, for the apprentice this might include a clear articulation of when they should attend work and when they should attend training, as well as appropriate behaviours in the workplace—although I am not sure that it will mention the laundry basket. For the employer, it might include how they will ensure successful delivery of the apprentice and preparation of the apprentice for their end-point assessment, and for the provider it might include clearly setting out the advice and support they can offer both the employer and the apprentice. The statement should also include details of how the parties will work together and how issues will be resolved. This is in addition to the employment law requirements on employers to set out the particulars of employment. Turning to the point—
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I welcome a lot of what the Minister has been saying, but is that formal signing process taking place now in all cases, or is the noble Baroness advising us that it will be a requirement from whenever? Can she clarify that?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton
Unfortunately, I am unable to clarify that at the moment, but I will write to the noble Lord. I will also unfortunately have to write to the noble Lord, Lord Watson, on his point about the Consumer Rights Act.
As a requirement of the Skills Funding Agency funding rules, the training provider must ensure that a commitment statement and the apprenticeship agreement are in place before funding is released, which implies that these things are happening—otherwise, funding would not be released—but I will confirm that. This is monitored by the SFA, and duplication by the institute is therefore not necessary. I hope that noble Lords will feel reassured enough on the basis of my explanation not to press these amendments.
Lord Lucas
Can my noble friend say whether the apprenticeship documents that an apprentice receives include the telephone number of the helpline?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton
Again, I am unable to confirm that, but I will write to my noble friend. If not, I think perhaps it should.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her comments. A number of them seem extremely helpful. I am appreciative of the fact that she will consider the one-stop-shop approach.
I may be wrong and only time will tell, and I do not accuse the Minister of complacency because I do not believe that that is the case, but I think that the Government are erring on the side of optimism in relation to small and medium-sized employers. The feedback I am getting—and I am sure I am not the only one—suggests that, while employers welcome the training costs being met, along with some other contributions, it may be that they have underestimated the position of employers who are saying, “I have a business to run and I am having enough trouble keeping it going. Now you are asking me to take on the responsibility of an apprentice”. In many cases, small employers do not have any experience of dealing with the administrative side. They may exaggerate its complexity, but nevertheless they see it as a burden and a disincentive. They say, “I still have the wage costs, which are not insignificant, and for at least the first six months and up to a year I do not necessarily have a fully productive employee”. In these dialogues I always say, “The point you are making is interesting, but when a business takes on an apprentice and the arrangement is working well, I am told that the young person is making a positive contribution”. A fresh pair of young eyes is able to suggest to the business how to make a significant number of improvements, not least in areas like IT where the young person is often more knowledgeable than the employer.
I would urge the Minister to look at the situation again. There is still uncertainty about how the levy is going to operate and how it will filter through to small and medium-sized employers. On its own, I do not think that meeting 90% of the training costs is going to achieve what is needed. The Government should not take my word for it. They should talk to chambers of commerce and the Federation of Small Businesses. I think that they will be given the kind of feedback that I have set out today.
Obviously, I welcome what has been said about the contract of employment. While there are a couple of points on which the Minister will come back to us, overall it is good. I do not know whether the response has covered the point I was trying to convey—perhaps I did not set it out well enough. I referred to trying to ensure that the formal signing of the apprenticeship contract is marked as an occasion, because it should be. I look forward to the day when I can go into a secondary school and see on the wall not only the names of those who have gone on to Oxford, Cambridge and other institutions of higher learning, but also a board showing the young people who have achieved apprenticeships. Surely that is just as important and, in my view, as life changing a proposition for young people as going to university.
Overall, I welcome some of the information we have been given because it is positive and useful. I have indicated the areas that I think the Government should revisit and I thank my noble friends who have contributed to the debate. My noble friend Lord Watson made a point about consumer rights and I welcome the support of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. Obviously, I anxiously await the replies to the issues we have raised, but at this point I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“Transition from existing qualifications to the new technical routes
Within six months of the day on which this Act comes into force, the Secretary of State must publish detailed proposals for the transition from existing technical and further education qualifications, to the awarding of new qualifications approved by the Institute.”
Lord Young of Norwood Green
This is another area about which we have had a significant amount of dialogue with the Government during the interregnum between the Committee and Report stages, and we have had some correspondence from the Minister. At first sight the Bill seems to be a modest little measure, until you look into its implications. If there is one area with significant implications, it is around the transition to a new system of technical qualifications. One of the documents that we have received from the noble Lord, Lord Nash, says:
“The current system involves around 3,500 vocational qualifications, which can be hard to distinguish between—our intention is to streamline these options. The current landscape is confusing; for parents, students, careers advisers and employers. That is exactly why we are trying to reform and simplify it”.
It goes on to say:
“The Sainsbury Panel recommended that there should be a single exclusive licence for delivery of each new technical education qualification. The Institute will work with employers and other stakeholders to develop high-quality technical education qualifications, based on the knowledge, skills and behaviours that employers have identified as being a requirement for particular occupations”.
Again, that is a very ambitious objective. I agree that there is a bewildering number of technical qualifications out there. I would also agree that some of them are not of the highest standard, but that is not true of all those qualifications by any means. Some of them are well established and have a very good reputation, whether City & Guilds, HNC or HND. These have taken a long time to establish. We know—when I say “we” I mean the royal we—that is, the previous Labour Government know from when we tried to introduce diplomas that it was not exactly a primrose path to a new qualification. Once again, the law of unintended consequences applied: the intention might have been good, but the delivery was difficult.
When we asked what exactly would be the transition from the 3,500 to a number, depending on the 15 routes, that could possibly be just a single qualification, the response we had from the Bill team was that this is a work in progress. That is not intended to be a derogatory comment on my part because the Government are trying to achieve a complicated process. We have said to the Government to be careful—I was going to say be careful not to throw out some of these babies with the bathwater, but they are not exactly babies; these are very mature, adult qualifications that have been around for a long time and have a high reputation—about getting rid of those qualifications and to understand the difficulty of establishing new ones.
While we have been considering this legislation, a new description for the qualification has appeared: T-levels. I quite like it. I do not know who thought it up, but I thought that since we have A-levels, T-levels potentially sounded good. I and many others who have been looking at this problem are worried for a number of reasons. I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, and others will come in and expand on this. I do not know why this amendment has been taken as a separate group. The start of this, apart from all the other issues about intellectual property rights and other things that have been raised in the course of this debate, will be to get that transition process right. That will be a key part of establishing new technical qualifications. We do not want to be in a situation where suddenly we are introducing a huge level of doubt and uncertainty, where once again we are trying to create confidence in the apprenticeship brand and in technical education.
I understand that this is a work in progress, but I make a plea to the Minister and his team to recognise first the size of the task, which I think they do, and secondly the sensitivity of what they are dealing with and the need to get it right to ensure that there is adequate consultation, not only with employers but with all the other stakeholders, including the current awarding bodies and educational providers such as FE colleges. That is the basis of the amendment. Once again, I look forward to the ministerial response. I beg to move.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
The noble Lord, Lord Young, has tempted me, because I, too, bear the scars of the diploma, GNVQ and various other misguided projects of different Governments. He is quite right that my Amendment 28, which is in the next group, will be relevant here, too. I urge the Minister to consider just how sizeable this task is. We should not demolish existing vocational qualifications—as we were calling them—because many of them have great reputations and have served people well. If we are to build a new bright tomorrow for such qualifications, we need to use all the tools that we already have, which are serving the country well, and expand them into the next range of T-level qualifications.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Young for moving this amendment, which I am happy to support. In broad terms, we believe that the recommendations of the Sainsbury review should be fully implemented and funded. In the short term, there are three clear funding needs from the skills plan: fair funding for colleges; costs associated with finding and managing work placements, because they involve an individualised service to young people and employers rather than education to a group; and the cost of the transition year. A two-year full-time course would be the standard model under the plan, but with the expectation that some school leavers would need to take an additional transition year. This implies a full-time three-year programme. The current 16-to-18 funding system assumes a full two years and then administers a 17.5% cut in the third year. A sensible step, therefore, would be to maintain the full rate for three years for those students taking the transition year.
In his letter to noble Lords dated 22 February, the noble Lord, Lord Nash, stated that there are currently around 3,500 vocational qualifications. Most professionals in the sector have cited a figure of more than three times that amount, but more important is how the transition to the new regime is managed and funded. The Minister also said in his letter that the reforms would be phased in progressively, with the first routes available for delivery from September 2019. That apart, the transition was not set out and the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Young would enable that to happen. It would be a positive move and we believe that it is incumbent on the Minister to commit to it by accepting this modest amendment.
Lord Nash
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Watson and Lord Young, for tabling this amendment. I fully understand their concerns and hope that I might be able to provide an explanation that will put their minds at rest. I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, for his kind comments about our branding as T-levels.
We know that colleges, students and awarding organisations will need to know in good time the arrangements for existing qualifications as the new qualifications are introduced. As the noble Lord, Lord Watson, has just said, we plan for the first new technical routes to be introduced in autumn 2019, with the full range of programmes coming on stream soon after. Additional hours will be available for the new programmes as they become available and we will announce further details in due course following further engagement with employers, colleges and other key stakeholders.
In implementing the reforms, the Government will consider in consultation with the institute how best to manage the transition from legacy qualifications to new technical qualifications approved by the institute and intend to involve stakeholders and set out plans for this in due course.
Given that the new technical education routes will be subject to phased introduction, it would not be sensible or appropriate to commit to a fixed timescale for publishing detailed proposals for transition. I reassure the noble Lords, however, that once the institute has approved a new qualification, the Department for Education will consider future funding for the current, similar qualifications on a case-by-case basis. We will not withdraw funding for a student who is part way through their course. I therefore hope that the noble Lords, Lord Watson and Lord Young, will be sufficiently reassured to consider not pressing their amendment.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I listened carefully to what the Minister said but am not sure that it entirely dealt with the transition process. Maybe I did not quite grasp what he said. I understand his point: I fixed upon a period of time that I thought would be sufficient for him to be able to describe to the various stakeholders how this would happen. Telling them at the end, “We’ve identified this particular new qualification”, seems a bit late in the day. It still does not seem to give the kind of reassurance that people would want: “This is the process we are to go through, how we will carry it out and how we will manage during the transition period”. I am not particularly fussed about the timing—I had to put something in there—but I am concerned about the detail of the transition process and a more detailed response would be welcome. Perhaps we will have an opportunity before Third Reading to meet again and get a more detailed assurance. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“Technical Education Qualifications
In this Part “technical education qualifications” means the full range of work-based qualifications, whether technical, craft, creative, personal services, or professional.”
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, Amendment 6 is in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Storey. I will also speak to Amendment 28, which is in my name and supported by the noble Lords, Lord Lucas and Lord Watson of Invergowrie, and my noble friend Lord Storey.
I make no apology for bringing back Amendment 6. It is very simple. As we discussed in Committee, it would cost no money but would make a great difference. Craft and creative skills, personal services such as care or hairdressing, and professional skills such as business or accounting are not automatically seen as primarily technical. I accept that there has been a move away from the long-standing term “vocational” to cover non-academic qualifications and that the decision seems to have been taken that “technical” is the word of the moment, particularly now as we seem out of the blue to have T-levels—as the noble Lord, Lord Young explained. It would be interesting to know what consultation went on before the arrival on the scene of T-levels from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. In order not to narrow the Bill to purely mechanical technical subjects, an explanatory clause would be a helpful addition and ensure that this legislation is seen to be inclusive of all work-based qualifications and across the range of courses offered in further education.
Arts subjects should be held in the same esteem as other courses. It is of great concern to hear that creativity and the arts are being squeezed out in schools. Between 2003 and 2013, there was a 50% drop in GCSE entries for design and technology, 23% for drama and 25% for other craft-related subjects. It stands to reason that this will have a knock-on effect on the take-up of further education courses in creative subjects. We would like to ensure through this amendment that there is no doubt that the attempts to improve technical education, as outlined in the Bill, apply equally across all courses.
Amendment 28 is for clarification. As we discussed in Committee and as the noble Lord, Lord Young, set out, we would like to clarify the transition process between these schemes. There is already a comprehensive list of approved technical education qualifications in the Ofqual regulated qualifications framework. We seek to clarify the relationship between that framework and the list in the Bill. It would certainly introduce complexity and confusion to have multiple qualification lists. Can the Minister clarify that the institute’s list will be a transfer from rather than in addition to the Ofqual list? If so, what systems will be set up to ensure that the transition and transfers are as straightforward as possible? Does the Minister envisage any major differences between these two lists? I look forward to his reply and beg to move.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I add my support to the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Garden. If I remember rightly, in Committee the noble Baroness, Lady Cohen of Pimlico, asked whether the word “professional” might be added to “technical” in the Bill to provide a broader and more prestigious view of what was covered. I think “professional” has a lot of attractions to it in bridging the divide between academic and vocational qualifications. “Technical” gets some of the way but not all the way. I thought it was a good suggestion. The Minister said that he would take it away and think about it. I am sorry if I have missed the results of those deliberations in the letters that have been sent out. But if I have not missed them and we have not had them, could we have them now, please?
Baroness Wolf of Dulwich
My Lords, I rarely disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, on technical education, where I highly respect her expertise and experience, but I confess to a certain unease about the idea that there should be only one list and that it should overtly include everything. One of the key things that we are trying to do here is to create a highly respected and distinctive technical education course which sits alongside the academic one, and therefore by definition it cannot include everything that has passed a basic set of requirements for being an acceptable qualification.
I remind noble Lords that I have an interest in this, having been on the Sainsbury panel, but also looking back to my experience when I was doing the 14 to 18 vocational education review. I completely agree that one could go round for ever on vocational to technical to professional. But there is a really important distinction here between a limited set of qualifications that have been identified as having a very clear purpose and the possibility—and, I would say, high desirability—of allowing a very large number of qualifications to arise and be offered and meet a minimum threshold in the vocational and technical area. It may be that the wording of the noble Baroness’s amendment will not get in the way of that, but these distinctions are important.
When I made the 14 to 18 recommendations, I said explicitly that there should be a distinction between there being strong requirements before something could be offered in mainstream 14 to 16 education and a very different set of requirements which said that they could be out there and schools could offer them if they wished but they could not count in the league tables as being equivalent to GCSEs or A-levels. The same thing applies here with the task set for the new institute to identify qualifications which really meet the requirements of that distinctive high-status route. That is not the same as being on the Ofqual register.
This is not about whether it is craft or creative or technical, where I entirely agree with the noble Baroness, but about creating this “lost” route that we used to have without at the same time throwing overboard a large number of qualifications—some of them tiny, some of them big—which may serve quite different purposes. It is really important to recognise that one of the purposes of the institute is to create that alternative route and that part of that is about having a set of qualifications—probably not thousands long—that meet these criteria. Getting there is going to be difficult but if you do not have this end in view, it is hard to see how we will ever get out of what is at the moment a hugely confused and confusing mass of qualifications.
Again, to talk from personal experience, when I did the 14 to 18 review, I did not recommend anything like as much restriction at 16 to 18. What was recommended and adopted was this idea of a programme of study for each individual student between 16 and 18, which has worked quite well. I thought at the time that as a result of that we would move to a situation where a smaller number of good qualifications became clearly apparent as market leaders, and strongly established. I was convinced by Nick Boles, the Minister at the time the Sainsbury panel was set up, that this was just not happening; we needed to be more active and the programme of study was not enough.
It seems to me that a fundamental part of what the institute is about is creating a set of qualifications which meet the requirements for that alternative, high-status route from 16 on into adult life. Without talking to lawyers or drafting clerks, I do not know whether the amendment would have any negative impact on that but it is important to understand that one of the purposes of the institute, for which I think there is cross-party consensus, is to recreate that route. In my view, that means that you cannot just say that everything that is not an A-level can be on the institute’s list, because we need a list that is clearly part of this route without wiping out all the other many qualifications which may serve other and different purposes. That is what I wanted to say and I hope the noble Baroness and I do not really disagree.
Baroness Vere of Norbiton
My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to debate the amendments in this group. I thank all noble Lords for their contributions.
I fully understand why the noble Baroness and the noble Lord have tabled Amendment 6, which seeks to define technical education qualifications as,
“the full range of work-based qualifications”.
I reassure them that all relevant and appropriate occupations in the economy will be covered within the technical education routes. What is important is that there is good provision for everyone and that the reformed technical education system focuses on occupations for which skilled technical training is a requirement.
The Sainsbury panel report has already provided a clear definition:
“Technical education must require the acquisition of both a substantial body of technical knowledge and a set of practical skills valued by industry”.
Trying to define these qualifications in this manner could restrict the scope of technical education qualifications, both now and in the future. In practice, technical education qualifications will be defined by the coverage of the 15 technical education routes. Each route will provide a framework for grouping together occupations where there are shared training requirements. An occupational map will identify all the occupations within the scope of each route.
When defining the coverage of the 15 technical education routes, it is important to highlight that not all occupations will be included. The Sainsbury panel was clear that unskilled and low-skilled occupations that do not have sufficient knowledge requirements would not warrant a technical education route. Rather, these occupations can be learned entirely on the job, often within a matter of weeks. For these occupations, it would not be appropriate to offer technical education qualifications.
I reassure the noble Baroness and the noble Lord that within the technical education routes there will be comprehensive coverage of the skilled occupations that are vital to the success—
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I would like some clarification. The Minister said that the Sainsbury panel identified low-skilled or unskilled occupations that could be learned in a matter of weeks. We are talking about apprenticeships. The Government have already said that the minimum period for an apprenticeship is one year. That covers a very wide range of occupations. I would not necessarily call them unskilled or even low-skilled. Whether it is retail or anything else that is sometimes referred to in this manner, I do not think that is fair, especially if we are talking about an apprenticeship. We have said, I believe, that 20% of an apprenticeship should be off-the-job training. Which are the groups that do not require any technical qualifications whatever?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton
I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. I think it is unhelpful to try to put things into the brackets of “low-skilled”, “high-skilled” and “medium-skilled”, particularly based on what we experienced when we were much younger, and to try to connect them with apprenticeships. We are talking about technical education qualifications specifically, which may not be related to an apprenticeship. Occupations at the higher skill level will have technical education qualifications. Other occupations, while equally valid, will not.
Within the technical education routes there will be comprehensive coverage of skilled occupations. However, it is important to be clear that as well as meeting the technical education requirements set out in the Sainsbury panel, there must be labour market evidence to demonstrate employer need and a genuine skills gap. We will review this regularly and will continue to listen to any evidence from employers.
I am grateful to the noble Baroness and noble Lords for tabling Amendment 28 and for providing an opportunity to debate this issue. I hope that my explanation will put their minds at rest. The Ofqual register of regulated qualifications is a public-facing database listing the many qualifications that Ofqual regulates, including A-levels, GCSEs and functional skills. It is used as an indexing tool and includes information that helps employers, students and others understand the relative size and challenge of qualifications.
As noble Lords will be aware, new Section A2HA proposes that the institute will maintain a list of approved high-quality technical education qualifications based on the knowledge, skills and behaviours that employers have identified as requirements for particular occupations. When approving qualifications, the institute will need to ensure that the qualifications are at a level appropriate for the associated occupation or group of occupations. Qualifications will need to contain stretch and challenge that is commensurate with their ascribed level. They will need to be of an agreed size that reflects the amount of time involved in teaching and assessing them. This information will be clearly indicated in the list of qualifications maintained and published by the institute.
Once the institute has approved a new qualification, we will consider future funding for current similar qualifications on a case-by-case basis. We will not withdraw funding for students who are part-way through their course. Ofqual’s register of regulated qualifications and the institute’s register are both important parts of the system, but they have different purposes. If the institute’s register were to replace the Ofqual register, this would remove public information and a frame of reference for thousands of qualifications that would be outside the remit of the institute and which would have already been taken by students, including GCSEs and A-levels.
My noble friend Lord Lucas made a point about the suggestion from the noble Baroness, Lady Cohen, about “professional”. We have given this some consideration, and at the moment there is no consensus on an alternative to “technical education”. We have had a conversation today about technical education versus the entire gamut of qualifications or tests that you might take to work, which was mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf. It is important that technical education retains a certain status within the minds of learner and employer.
There is a public need to maintain both registers. I hope that my explanation has reassured the noble Baroness to the extent that she is prepared to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I thank the Minister for her reply. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for raising the matter of “professional”. I thought it had gained a certain accord in Committee, but it has obviously not found favour. I am sorry that the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, disagrees with me on things or that she has sought to clarify. The short answer to my amendment is that there will not be only one list; there will be several lists. As the Minister explained, the Ofqual list is much broader. Presumably the institute’s list will be bits of what is on the Ofqual list. It will include some of the things on the Ofqual list which are relevant to higher technical qualifications, but if the Ofqual list is supposed to be a comprehensive list of all available qualifications, it will need to include those which the institute approves—perhaps I have misunderstood that.
I am also interested that it appears that we now have an A-list and a B-list, which I do not think was made particularly clear before. We have an A-list of qualifications which the institute approves, but in order to encompass all the other qualifications—the lower-level ones, for instance—there will be another list of qualifications which somehow will not come under the institute. This is confusing because the institute is now not only the Institute for Apprenticeships but the institute of further education, and further education, by definition, covers lower-level qualifications as well as higher-level qualifications.
Lord Baker of Dorking
I warmly support what the noble Baroness is saying. It is not only lower-level qualifications; there are existing upper-level qualifications, for example, at level 4, which are very well regarded by industry and which are progression courses from level 3 to level 5 and a degree. We do not want them to disappear. They are a very important part of the technical education system of our country.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Baker, for his comments. I am pleased that I am not the only one who is finding this amendment rather more confusing than I thought it was going to be. I thought it was going to be very straightforward, but it has brought in other aspects of the Bill. I hope it will be possible to have a meeting before Third Reading so that we can clarify what these two lists of qualifications will be and whether the B-list will be funded and recognised, or whether only the preferred A-list will lead on to apprenticeships and get the blessing of government. On the basis that further dialogue would be very welcome, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Lucas
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 9. These amendments are very simple. They pick up on my noble friend Lord Baker’s excellent amendment, which was accepted in Committee, to point out that it is not just the local FE college or other major provider that wants to get into schools. There are a lot of excellent organisations which need to get into schools. Women in Construction is one. In needs to get the message through that there are a lot of very good jobs for women in construction. There are similar efforts going on about women in engineering and women in computing. They are not education providers. They have been funded by education providers and employers to produce a flow of students to education providers in general. Those organisations need to get into schools just as much as individual providers, if not more, because in many cases they have a level of prestige and glamour which the local FE college lacks. I beg to move.
Lord Storey
Amendment 17 is in my name and those of the noble Lord, Lord Watson, and my noble friend Lady Garden. I moved a similar amendment in Committee, when I talked about “good” or “outstanding” FE colleges being awarded either status only if their careers education was of a high standard. The noble Baroness, Lady Morris, spoke in a sort of roundabout way about the importance of careers education, but was concerned about straitjacketing through the use of “outstanding” and “good”. Having reflected on what she said, I have come back with a slightly changed amendment, which highlights the importance of careers education in further education and says that when Ofsted carries out inspections, it is important that the careers guidance in those establishments be of a high calibre.
One of the most important things that we need to do for young people is to provide that guidance and knowledge about careers. Many of us do it with our own children: if careers advice is not available, we have networks of people who can talk to our children and perhaps provide opportunities for them to do work experience. But many children and young people, particularly those from disadvantaged backgrounds, do not get that network of support, and it must be down to the education system to provide that. Careers education should start in primary school. I remember that at my own school we had a careers session, where people from different jobs and workplaces would come into the school. There would be a carousel approach, and children could listen to them. That should go through to secondary schools, so I was delighted that the Government accepted the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Baker, on university technical colleges being able to come into schools. They will be able to go into schools and tell young people about the different opportunities. We do not want a straitjacketing approach but one which lets young people see all the different possibilities. We have talked about this for a long time and have heard all sorts of promises about what will happen down the road. The situation is getting slightly better, but surely, if we are going to do one thing, the most important thing we can do for young people is to get careers education right.
I was interested in what the noble Lord, Lord Young, said on Amendment 4. Careers education is not just about careers advice and guidance, as important as those are, but about preparation for a career. If a young person has a career opportunity, I would have hoped that the educational establishment would prepare them for that, whether through techniques for interviews, filling out an application or preparing a CV—all those things come together in good careers advice. I hope the Government will listen to this, as I am sure they will, and that we can agree that careers advice should be part of the establishment of good FE providers.
Lord Aberdare
My Lords, I support Amendment 17 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Storey. It is widely recognised, including in a number of reports published by some of your Lordships’ committees, that the quality of careers education and advice in both schools and colleges has hitherto ranged on a spectrum from patchy to poor. Surely one reason for that is the lack of any real incentive for schools and colleges to up their game and improve their offer. It seems to me that one of the most effective incentives that could be put in place is for schools and colleges to know that the quality of their careers education will be a significant factor in determining what sort of rating they get when they are inspected by Ofsted.
As we have heard, some good things are happening: the National Careers Service is developing its offer and in particular I am very impressed by what I have seen of the Careers & Enterprise Company and its effort to put a network of schools co-ordinators in place. None the less, we still hear constantly that, although schools are good at reporting their academic progressions and the number of people who have gone on to university or further academic education, they are not nearly so good at talking about students who have gone on to apprenticeships or further levels of technical and professional education. I rather like that term “technical and professional”, and thought the Minister in the other place was also rather keen on it, but that does not appear to be necessarily the case.
I very much support the amendment, particularly as it would go no further than requiring Ofsted to take account of the provision of careers advice in carrying out inspections, so it would not appear to be a huge burden on either Ofsted or the schools. It just sends a signal, as we always used to like doing. I support the amendment.
Lord Baker of Dorking
My noble friend Lord Lucas’s amendments are an addition to the clause that I introduced in Committee, but quite a useful one. The purpose of the clause is to ensure that schools have a duty to accept—and cannot reject—various people going in and talking to students at the ages of 13, 16, and 18 about the various types of training and education they provide, which is the most effective way to improve careers advice. I have sat through several Governments who have tried to create careers advice by legislation, and it just does not work. You cannot expect many teachers to know a great deal about life outside because they leave school, go to a teacher training college and then go back to school. You have to have real, live people going into schools and talking about what life is like in a factory or a business complex and offering the opportunities—and we will now have this.
In September this year, for the first time, not only the heads of university technical colleges but those of studio schools, career colleges and FE colleges, as well as apprenticeship providers, will have a right to go and speak to 13, 16 and 18 year-olds and explain to them the opportunities that are available to them other than just getting three A-levels and going to university. That is a major change. I strongly support the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Lucas. Groups such as Women in Engineering spend a lot time trying to persuade more women to get into engineering. We have courses in the UTC movement to persuade more girls to go into engineering, and the numbers are going up all the time: we sometimes get over 20% or 30% girls. We like that because when a girl decides to be an engineer, she is usually very determined and confident, and in many cases the brightest member of the team. This will help in all of that, so I support it. Careers advice in FE colleges is largely an unknown area, frankly, and they should certainly improve their advice. But they have the advantage of being able to go in and talk to schools from September of this year.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
My Lords, with Amendment 17, I am in the slightly alarming position of being the meat in a Liberal Democrat sandwich as far as the Marshalled List is concerned. This of course is a follow-on from the very valuable amendment to which the noble Lord, Lord Baker, just referred, which now forms Clause 2 of the Bill. We have just further benefited from his wisdom with his remarks on this amendment. I wholly concur with his view that there is a need not so much to improve as to establish careers advice in further education colleges. I very much agree also with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Storey, in introducing this group of amendments about this being about preparation for careers rather than just giving information.
The quality of what colleges are able to provide is key to so many young people, but much will depend on the ability of Ofsted to carry out inspections of FE colleges to make this amendment effective. It rather surprised me in the debate that followed the announcement of which providers had been successful in gaining access to the register of apprentice training providers last week that before the register came into force, there were 793 apprenticeship providers. The register has nearly doubled that, with 1,473 organisations now in the frame for inspection when the register goes live in May. But that is not the extent of the burden being placed on Ofsted and its responsibility to inspect, because the process for applying to the register is due to take place four times every year, and it is expected that the number will soon rise perhaps to well over 2,000. It was quite instructive that when asked about the implications of this, Ofsted’s new chief inspector, Amanda Spielman, responded:
“It is a huge challenge”.
I think she was being politic because she must have real concerns. Unless the Government plan to increase Ofsted’s resources to enable it to inspect the new environment effectively, there will be very real gaps, which will be a huge shame.
I hope the amendment will be taken seriously by Ministers. It is important that the very least they do is recognise that there has to be a proper system of careers advice being offered by colleges to ensure that young people get the start in life that they deserve.
Baroness Morris of Yardley
My Lords, I would like to ask a question that has just come to mind, mainly because I tabled a similar amendment in Committee. Amendment 17 is far better because it allows a flexibility that we did not have before, and having it in the Bill would help to raise the profile of careers education during Ofsted inspections, so I am happy to support it. No doubt the Minister will let us know what the framework already says, but I think the intent is fine.
I support 100% the point that the noble Lord, Lord Baker, has been making about young people’s access to careers education. I have no problem with the way in which Amendments 8 and 9 were described, and in fact I have supported such amendments on previous occasions. However, it has struck me that although it is the right of the student to have access to the information, it is not the right of the person to go into the school. I know that sounds like a fine difference, but I wonder whether the Minister might reflect on that and give some assurance that, although a head would not have the right to deny the information and access to the school from someone who was giving that information, they would retain their right as head of the school to choose who talked to their students.
The quality of a speaker is very important. If I were a head teacher, I would not want someone who I knew was a bad speaker and did not engage the children successfully or in a professional manner to have access to my school, even if they might be talking about something whose content was very important. Indeed, one of the reasons for not doing that would be because they would put the information over badly. My years of teaching experience might be from a long time ago, but I remember some horror stories of outside visitors coming into schools who just did not have the skills to engage and talk to children and young people. I am not opposed at all to the amendments, but I do not think we have discussed the right of the head to retain control over who is speaking to his or her students. I would like that to be considered, without taking away from the intent of the amendments we have discussed.
The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)
My Lords, I had not intended to speak on Amendment 17, but I was on the Social Mobility Select Committee along with the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, and the issue of careers guidance came up very strongly throughout our year of investigations and featured strongly in recommendation 2. Our report came out in April last year and the government response was published in July. I would like to read part of that response and then refer to a piece of evidence that we received from Sir Michael Wilshaw. The response, and I am cutting away a lot of it, says that,
“we will make the Gatsby benchmarks the focus of the statutory guidance that supports schools and colleges to implement the careers duty. This is in direct response to calls from schools to make it clear what government is expecting from them in terms of careers education”.
The tone of the response is pretty clear: the Government are saying, more or less, “Yes, we will do more”. It makes no sense, then, not to measure it, and I agree wholly with what the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, said. I distinctly remember that Sir Michael Wilshaw made it very clear in his excellent evidence that Ofsted is already carrying out the assessment work on careers guidance, so not to include it in the marking scheme seems not to be using the fullness of the evidence and the data that are being gathered. Accordingly, I completely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Storey, and the whole of Amendment 17.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, if you want to change attitudes in schools and colleges, one of the most powerful influences you can have is to send in their peer groups to talk to them. I met a young woman today who had taken a degree in mechanical engineering. It was interesting talking to her about what her influences had been in taking that decision. More importantly for me, when I asked her whether she was going back into schools and colleges to talk to young people about what a successful career they could establish in engineering, the answer was a very clear affirmative.
When Ofsted is carrying out an inspection, I hope it will take into account the general approach of the school. It is not just about formal careers advice, as has already been stated, but about whether they have an open mind. I take my noble friend Lady Morris’s point about the quality of speakers; obviously you want someone who can engage in a positive way. But I hope that when Ofsted looks at schools and colleges it is taking into account the links with business, business people and people who have successfully completed their apprenticeships coming into schools, and the role of women in subjects like engineering, STEM and construction in changing attitudes and making young people, and especially young women, aware that there is a wide variety of careers open to them with lots of well-rewarded career paths. That is an essential part of any careers advice.
Lord Nash
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for tabling the amendments, which relate to careers. I have to say I am still struggling with the concept of the noble Lord, Lord Watson, being the meat in anyone’s sandwich. He is a pretty tough piece of meat, based on my experience of sitting opposite him at the Dispatch Box. That is meant as a compliment, actually.
On Amendment 8, tabled by my noble friend Lord Lucas, Clause 2 requires schools to ensure that there is an opportunity for a range of education and training providers to talk directly to pupils about the technical education qualifications and apprenticeships that they offer. The amendment is intended to ensure that such access is extended to people who represent groups of providers, such as women in construction or manufacturing. I remember attending an event held for women in manufacturing in your Lordships’ House a few years ago. I agree that we need a degree of flexibility so that pupils hear from the person best placed to inform them about the opportunities on offer. I recognise that in some cases that may not be the provider itself but perhaps it could be an ambassador, an employer or a member of a trade association or representative body, speaking on behalf of a number of small providers.
We will publish statutory guidance that will set out more detail and make it clear that we do not wish to impose unnecessary constraints. We are placing the onus on the school to develop their own arrangements for provider access, including agreeing with providers who will attend to talk to pupils. Clause 2, both as drafted and as we intend to clarify in underpinning statutory guidance, already provides for persons acting on behalf of a number of providers to access pupils. To get really technical and legal for a moment, I queried this in terms of statutory interpretation. The legal authority for our decision to resist the amendments is found on page 1019 of Bennion on Statutory Interpretation:
“Where an enactment refers to a person it is usually taken as intended to include that person’s agent authorised either expressly or by implication”.
The earliest legal authority on this is R v Symington (1895) 4BCR 323. It follows that the words “on behalf of” in the statute would not be needed to allow a person to act on behalf of providers.
Turning to the very good point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, regarding the amendment from my noble friend Lord Baker, it is certainly clear to me, and my officials have confirmed this, that the obligation on the school is to ensure that there is an opportunity for a range of education and training providers to access pupils, that they must prepare a policy statement and that that statement must include, for example, grounds for granting and refusing requests for access. Obviously it must be at the discretion of the head; if he feels that the people coming along are, frankly, not of quality and are not going to give their pupils the right advice, then it must be within the head’s remit to refuse access, provided that he is providing a range of education and training providers and has some other alternative that is better.
Amendment 9 is also in the name of my noble friend Lord Lucas. It is intended to ensure that the policy statement produced by every school will set out the circumstances in which both providers and persons acting on their behalf will be given access to pupils. The current provisions already allow for such persons to talk to pupils. As I said, we will publish statutory guidance which makes this degree of flexibility explicitly clear: the onus is on schools to liaise with providers to agree who is best placed to talk to them.
Turning to Amendment 17, which deals in more detail with Ofsted and careers advice, careers advice is a vital part of the role that every school and college must play in preparing students for the workplace. I agree entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Storey, that careers advice should start in primary school. Primary Futures does excellent work in this regard. I also agree with the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, that the Careers & Enterprise Company, in which we are investing considerable money—£90 million—has made an excellent start.
However, the quality of the careers offer is considered carefully by Ofsted when conducting standard inspections of FE colleges. Therefore, the amendment is unnecessary. Matters relating to careers provision feature in all four graded judgements made by Ofsted inspectors. First, in judging leadership and management, inspectors take account of the extent to which learners receive thorough and impartial careers guidance to enable them to make informed choices about their current learning and future career plans. Secondly, in judging the quality of teaching, learning and assessment, inspectors consider how far learners are supported to develop their employability skills, including appropriate attitudes and behaviour for work. Thirdly, in judging students’ personal development, behaviour and welfare, inspectors consider how learners benefit from purposeful work-related learning, including external work experience. Finally, in judging outcomes, inspectors consider information about students’ destinations and the acquisition of the qualifications, skills and knowledge that will help them to progress.
Ofsted also evaluates the education and training provision offered by the college, including 16 to 19 study programmes, apprenticeships and traineeships. In making these judgments, inspectors consider the extent to which each type of provision offers tailored careers advice and work experience opportunities to students and develops their employability skills. Noble Lords made some good points about Ofsted’s approach to that, and I will certainly discuss that further with Ofsted shortly. However, I hope that what I have said about its obligation framework reassures my noble friend that colleges are held to account properly for the quality of their careers provision and that he will be able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for his short CPD session, which I hope I shall manage to remember and will rehearse later in Hansard. Given that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)
I can be very brief. I am delighted to be able to say that, because the procedures followed on the amendments have been so exemplary that I recommend them to the House and hope that they may be adopted by others in a similar situation. I raised an issue in Committee. It received a fair and interesting hearing from Ministers. I asked for and received a meeting with the Bill team at which the noble Baroness, Lady Vere, was present. We went through the issues together. There was a good dialogue and debate. We narrowed it down to two specific points, which are the subject of the amendments. On the first, Amendment 10, I think I am allowed to say that there may be some good news when the Minister comes to respond, so I shall be moving it in the hope that it will be accepted by the House.
I shall not be moving Amendments 11, 12 and 13, because in the letter that I received subsequently from the noble Baroness, Lady Vere, there is an exact response to what I was looking for—which is not, as part of the letter seems to suggest, about the impact that the current framing would have on the operation of the special education measures. The point I was trying to get at, which comes up at the end of the letter, was that in a normal insolvency arrangement, there are rules for how creditors are dealt with. I was concerned that the drafting as it stood might interfere with that. That is a narrow point and I will not rehearse it here but, at the end of the letter, the noble Baroness writes:
“I hope that I have been able to reassure you”—
she had not until then—
“that the drafting of Clause 24(4) and (5) is not intended”.
I should be grateful if, when the noble Baroness or the noble Lord responds, they repeat that so that we have it on record that it is intended that the normal rules established for ordinary insolvency will be followed and that the drafting does not intervene on that. I beg to move.
Lord Nash
My Lords, I am grateful for these amendments. I have made it clear that our priority in introducing the special administration regime is to ensure that the interests of students are safeguarded as far as possible. That is the purpose of the special objective, which places an overriding obligation on the education administrator to take the action that best avoids or minimises disruption to the studies of existing students. I am pleased that noble Lords recognise, and share, that objective.
I understand the noble Lord’s concern about the drafting of subsection (2), that the inclusion of the words “if possible” may be considered to cast doubt on the special objective. As he indicated, I can assure noble Lords that is not our intention. I have reflected on the noble Lord’s amendment. The regime that we are introducing is one which places students at the heart of further education, but does not demand that the education administrator achieves the impossible; nor does it disregard the interests of creditors. The words “if possible” in Clause 24(2) were intended to clarify this position, but I understand the noble Lord’s concerns that they might have the opposite effect. Let me be clear that our position remains unchanged and I am satisfied, on the advice of my lawyers, that their deletion would have no substantive effect on the application of the regime. I am therefore delighted to accept the amendment.
As for the noble Lord’s kind offer not to move Amendments 11, 12 and 13, I am delighted that he has been reassured by the letter from my noble friend Lady Vere. I assure him that the normal insolvency procedures would be followed and that there is no intention to disrupt those, apart from the overriding special objective.
Baroness Wolf of Dulwich
“Providers of technical education: guarantee to students
(1) Any providers of technical education who are not covered by the insolvency regime created by this Act must provide a guarantee from a reputable financial institution to each Government supported student that, if the provider is made insolvent, the financial institution will cover the cost of operating that student's course until a suitable end point.(2) In subsection (1), a “suitable end point” means the completion of the course or the successful transfer of the student to an alternative institution.(3) In subsection (1), a “Government supported student” means any student whose education is funded directly by the Government through grants to the providers or student loans.(4) The cost of providing the guarantee under subsection (1) must be met by the relevant provider under subsection (1).”
Baroness Wolf of Dulwich
I note that the Minister did not reply to my amendment in his response, and I hope we can have further discussions before Third Reading.
Lord Storey
“Further education colleges: careers advice
(1) In carrying out inspections of further education colleges, and giving a rating to colleges, Ofsted has a duty to take into account the careers advice made available to students by colleges.(2) For the purpose of subsection (1), “careers advice” means a combination of face-to-face careers advice and careers advice that is provided remotely.”
Lord Storey
I listened carefully to the Minister’s reply, for which I am grateful, but I do not think he went far enough and, given the importance of careers education, I wish to test to opinion of the House.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
“Constitution of further education corporations
(1) Section 20 of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 (constitution of corporation and conduct of the institution) is amended as follows.(2) After subsection (4) insert—“(5) An instrument must provide for the role of the Clerk to include providing advice to the corporation with regard to matters including—(a) the operation of its powers,(b) the conduct of its business,(c) matters of governance practice, and(d) general procedural matters.””
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, we had a very interesting debate in Committee about the role of clerks in FE institutions. It is clear from our debates on the Bill that these institutions face many challenges. We have agreed that it is important to have the highest quality of people appointed to their governing bodies and that clerks can be very helpful in giving advice to them. The Minister said he would give some consideration to this and I look forward to his response. I beg to move.
Lord Nash
My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to continue our discussion in Committee, about the importance of good governance in FE colleges, to which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has referred. As I said in our earlier discussion, I fully recognise the important role played by clerks as expert advisers to governing bodies of FE institutions. As the Minister responsible for governance in schools, I have made it a priority to improve this vital area, including the important role of clerks. However, we believe that it is essentially a matter of improving practice, not legislative change, for reasons that I will outline.
We are supporting the role of clerks through development programmes run by the Education and Training Foundation. The noble Lord will also have received a copy of a letter from the Association of Colleges setting out some of the steps it is taking to strengthen governance. Hard copies of that letter are available for noble Lords today, should they wish to see it. I note from the letter that the AoC is currently undertaking a review of the existing code of practice on governance, to which many colleges adhere. I will be meeting it shortly to hear what further action it intends to take. There is clearly a strong and shared aspiration across this House for strengthening governance. The sector is keen to engage and it is only right for others, including government, to take up that invitation, and to offer the right combination of challenge and support. While legislation might appear attractive, it should not be something that is reached for without good evidence as to the nature of any problems, and full consideration of the most appropriate solutions. In an area as complex as governance, simple legislative approaches are unlikely to be effective in delivering real improvement.
The effect of the noble Lord’s amendment would be to reinstate one element of model articles for colleges that applied prior to the Education Act 2011. That would deliberately limit the freedom that colleges currently have in respect of the contents of their instrument and articles, by requiring them to retain provision in those articles regarding the role of the clerk. I have significant doubts about the efficacy of such an approach. A recent sample of the contents of the instrument and articles of 10 colleges, carried out by my officials, found that in every case the relevant documents already contained a provision similar or identical to that proposed in the amendment. If that sample is representative of the sector as a whole then it would suggest that the amendment will have no substantive effect—certainly not in terms of delivering the improvement to standards of governance which I believe is the noble Lord’s intention—particularly as all 10 colleges in the sample had been subject to intervention by the Further Education Commissioner. In many cases, the commissioner found significant failures of governance. Although I will not read out the relevant sections from the commissioner’s reports, which are published on GOV.UK, there is more than one instance of unsatisfactory clerking arrangements being a significant contributory factor. Those failures occurred despite the role of the clerk being set out in the instrument and articles.
This evidence strengthens the argument that setting out the role of the clerk in the instrument and articles, as would be required by the amendment, is by no means a guarantee of good governance in practice. Nor, unfortunately, is it an effective protection against poor governance. Our focus has to be on good practice in governance, and what more we can do to share good practice, not introducing additional box-ticking measures.
In conclusion, I stress that strengthening governance clearly remains a priority for the sector and for the Government and we will continue to drive this. In the small number of cases where there are significant failures in governance, we will continue to intervene swiftly and effectively to ensure that governing bodies are held to account, and that lessons are learned. We must continue to drive up the performance of all governing bodies. This approach strikes the right balance in helping to ensure a robust and well-governed sector that is in the best position to deliver its important mission for learners, employers, and the community. For these reasons, I believe that greater statutory prescription, as set out in the amendment, is unfortunately unlikely to be effective in achieving those goals. I therefore urge the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, as the Minister mentioned the ETF, I remind the House of my declaration that my wife is a consultant to it. I am grateful to the Minister, particularly because he is going to meet the AoC to discuss the outcome of its review. I accept that good practice is probably the best way forward. However, I hope the Government will keep up the pressure on the AoC and colleges to ensure that they employ good people who can provide robust advice. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Lucas
“( ) The group of persons that prepared a standard must have considered, including within the standard, a qualification widely recognised by employers for that occupation or for an aspect of it.”
Lord Lucas
There has been a problem with apprenticeships, at least historically, where people have wanted to include qualifications within them. I would be very grateful if my noble friend would make it clear that this has now passed and that the idea of including qualifications within apprenticeship qualifications, or indeed within qualifications at FE colleges, is now fully accepted. Generally, this is to the advantage of the learner. If I am doing a qualification within one of the 15 proposed Sainsbury routes, and that apprenticeship involves getting to know cybersecurity, I do not want to have a haberdasher’s qualification in cybersecurity: I want to have something which will be recognised in every single industry which might require that skill. The same applies to accountancy, marketing and other skills which are common across the routes, where these are things that you might wish an apprentice to learn in the course of their apprenticeship, or have experience of. It also applies particularly to technical qualifications in IT, where you would expect an apprentice to follow one or more international qualifications produced by the likes of Microsoft because that is what the industry as a whole demands and that is what produces a young person who can move from job to job because they have the qualifications that are recognised in their next job and not just those which are appropriate for the particular patch where they did their apprenticeship.
It is also important in this context that the specifications for apprenticeship should recognise that there are alternative qualifications in some circumstances. You may want your young person to be familiar with computer networking but there are two, maybe three, top-quality international qualifications in computer networking. Which one do you want to use? It will be the one that works with your business. However, the people in charge of the apprenticeship will recognise that these are equivalent and that either one can count and fit in place. I think this has been accepted now. There seems to be some residual difficulty reported to me. However, I would be very grateful for my noble friend’s assurance that the concept of embedding qualifications in apprenticeships or in further education courses is now fully accepted. I beg to move.
Lord Baker of Dorking
I support my noble friend’s amendment. I suspect that individual apprentices will work on the basis that he mentioned as certain qualifications in certain industries are not in the regular run of FE colleges, or universities for that matter, but have been accepted by the industry as the accepted standard. My noble friend mentioned Microsoft. Cisco does this as well. It is particularly the case in the whole area of computing, where various companies have established qualifications which have become the standard. In fact, the Cisco qualification for schools is more demanding than GCSE computing, and many people work towards that. We have to make sure that these qualifications do not disappear when the Institute for Apprenticeships clears out a lot of valueless qualifications. These are not valueless, particularly the international ones. Given that the digital revolution is happening so suddenly, a huge variety of examinations and qualifications in artificial intelligence may come our way. Each area will want to protect its own interest. I would hope that the Institute for Apprenticeships would take this message on board. I do not know whether a statutory measure is required.
Lord Nash
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Lucas for this amendment, the effect of which would be to require each group of persons who develop a standard to consider whether an existing qualification ought to be included within it. Occupational standards will form the basis of both apprenticeships and technical education qualifications, and need to be suitable for each of them. The standard should include the knowledge, skills and behaviours needed to form the basis of either an apprenticeship or a technical education qualification. Including existing qualifications in addition to the knowledge, skills and behaviours would cause complications when technical education qualifications are being developed using the standard.
One of the core principles of the apprenticeship reforms is to move away from qualifications. Under the framework model, apprentices collect a number of small, often low-quality, qualifications throughout their apprenticeship which often do not give employers much reassurance about apprentices’ ability to do the job. By moving to a single end-point assessment, the apprentice will be tested on the knowledge, skills and behaviours set out in the standard and their occupational competence to do the whole job, not just a small section of it.
This amendment does not require the inclusion of qualifications in standards but it is moving the approach back towards the system that we are moving away from. Although it is no doubt something that the awarding bodies would welcome, it could actively encourage employer groups to include qualifications where they may otherwise not have done so. That is likely to be contrary to the Government’s strategic guidance for the institute. However, I can reassure my noble friend and the House that in occupations where there is a qualification that is needed for an apprenticeship—for example, to achieve a professional status—they will not need to be prompted by this Bill to consider its inclusion in the standard, which is permissible as long as they meet set criteria for an exception. This is in line with the employer-led nature of the reforms. We therefore believe that this kind of direction is not needed in such a system. I hope that my noble friend will feel reassured enough on the basis of my explanation to withdraw this amendment.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I am mostly comforted by my noble friend’s reference to employer-led matters. If that indicates that if employers want a qualification and fight hard enough they will get it, that seems to me satisfactory. Therefore, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, I beg to move Amendment 23 in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Storey. The Government have introduced a raft of reforms to the apprenticeship system which they hope will contribute to the quality as well as the quantity of apprenticeships. One of the biggest departures, and among the most contentious, is the move to end-point assessment—EPA—as the sole formally recognised method of assessing an apprentice’s competence to do the job they have trained for. I am grateful to SEMTA and to Professor Lorna Unwin and Professor Alison Fuller from the Institute of Education for their work in this area and pay tribute to their expertise.
If we take the example of engineering, employers have looked to continuous assessment over three or more years, with formal qualifications used as the mechanism through which they can both assess and ensure that the full range of skills and knowledge has been learned, and that apprentices’ attainment has met national standards and earned national recognition. In overseas countries where EPA is used, it tends to be used in conjunction with other assessment and formal accreditation practices, with the assessment of skills taking place over the whole lifetime of the apprenticeship as well as in a summative form at the end of the programme and through formal qualifications. It is important that the assessment methodology is appropriate and is encouraging to the apprentice. Young people need to gain confidence as they learn that their skills are being recognised. The best way to do this is through continuous assessment. I hope that the Minister will be able to confirm that EPA will not be the only assessment used and that learners will be assessed continuously to ensure that they reach their potential and help to plug the yawning skills gap in the country. I beg to move.
Lord Nash
My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to discuss Amendment 23, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, and the noble Lord, Lord Storey, which would require all apprenticeship assessment plans to include continuous assessment.
Reviewing the role of continuous assessment in apprenticeships has been a very important part of the apprenticeship reforms following the 2012 Richard review of apprenticeships. It concluded that continuous assessment throughout an apprenticeship tested only incremental progress, not whether the apprentice is fully competent at the time of completing their apprenticeship. This approach also undermines our principle of ensuring that assessment is delivered by an independent third party with nothing to gain from the outcome of the assessment. The continuous assessment model often means that the same individual trains and assesses an apprentice—a conflict of interest we have sought to avoid.
An important feature of approved English apprenticeship standards and plans is therefore the move away from this reliance on a series of small and pre-existing qualifications making up an apprenticeship, and the move instead towards a single, independent end-point assessment, which tests the apprentice in a holistic and robust way. This test at the end of the apprenticeship proves genuine employability by demonstrating that the apprentice has acquired the knowledge, skills and behaviours needed to be fully competent in their occupation. The requirements for the end-point assessment of each standard are developed by employer groups and approved by the institute to ensure that it meets the needs for that specific occupation. In view of this, I hope the noble Baroness feels reassured enough to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. He said that the same people will be testing and assessing but the likelihood is that that will be the employer, who will know the standards they wish the apprentice to reach. There is a place for end-point assessment, but it should not be the only way of assessing these skills. They are learned continuously and should be assessed continuously. However, I hear what the noble Lord says, and we need to keep this under review to make sure that we are not putting off a lot of people with practical skills, who find the end-point assessment a real barrier to learning and accreditation. Meanwhile, however, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, I will also speak to Amendments 26 and 29 to 33, which are in my name and those of the noble Lords, Lord Lucas and Lord Watson, and my noble friend Lord Storey.
This series of amendments is intended to limit the institute’s ability to acquire wholesale the intellectual property relating to materials developed by awarding bodies. We expressed serious concerns about this in Committee. This is a significant proposal, which was not canvassed in the skills plan. As drafted, it is unclear whether awarding organisations retain any copyright to potentially key documents relating to a qualification once ownership transfers to the IATE. It is further proposed in paragraph 23 of Schedule 1, proposed new Section A2IA—“Transfer of copyright relating to technical education qualifications”—that:
“The Institute may assign … or grant a licence to another person”,
in the copyright transferred to the institute. These are draconian proposals.
The arguments we have been offered include that the Government—that is, the taxpayer—will have paid the awarding body to develop the materials and are therefore entitled to ownership. Publishers often give advances to authors, but they do not thereafter claim copyright. The payment is for the skills and expertise; the contents should remain the property of the author organisation. Another reason given was that it would provide continuity. If awarding body A loses a contract to awarding body B, there could be a seamless transfer. This begs a few questions. If awarding body B has won the contract, how could it do so without providing its own materials, and what self-respecting awarding body would opt to take over a competitor’s materials? But what if awarding body A had gone bust? I find it sad and inexplicable that so much of the Bill presupposes that those involved with further and technical education are overly liable to go into insolvency. It is a pretty robust sector. Might it have gone into insolvency because the Government have taken over all its materials, one wonders? In any case, in the unlikely event that a key awarding body went into liquidation, I feel sure that measures could be taken to retrieve any materials which had not already been handed over lock, stock and barrel to the Government.
We have heard from City & Guilds and other awarding bodies that the provisions in the Bill on the ownership of intellectual property and qualifications are unclear. As many awarding organisations operate outside England and export their current qualifications overseas, this lack of clarity will have an impact on the development of qualifications. We note, as we did in Committee, that in both general academic studies and higher-level studies the Government do not attempt to own the copyright qualifications. We caution that this approach could have a disproportionate impact on the technical qualifications market in the UK.
We propose that institute-owned copyright is more appropriately applied at the level of national standards, allowing awarding organisations to retain their copyright in their own materials. The power of the institute is so uncertain that it makes it impossible to ascertain the value of investing in developing qualifications going forward. Further, it should be noted that there is no mention in the Sainsbury report, which was the progenitor of the skills plan, or in the skills plan, of the handing over of copyright to the institute in documents related to qualifications.
As to single awarding organisations, what evidence is there that the current awarding arrangement has led to distortions of the vocational market? As we pointed out in Committee, there is a certain inconsistency in government policy, which is going all out for more competition in universities—raising considerable concerns in this House—with a move to a monopolistic model for vocational awarding. The current mixed-market model may not be perfect but it supports and encourages investment and innovation, as well as giving choice and safeguarding learner interests in the event of any awarding organisation failure. A similar model was proposed for GCSE and English baccalaureate subjects, and was abandoned following robust evidence from the Education Select Committee and Ofqual. Why should these qualifications be treated differently? If a single-supplier franchising approach was deemed too high-risk for the general qualifications market, why should it be deemed suitable for technical qualifications? I wonder whether these restrictions might be connected with the fact that those in government—whether in Westminster or Whitehall—will predominantly have achieved their own success through academic routes. How many people in the DfE have followed an apprenticeship or a work-based route and understand first-hand just how relevant and rigorous those programmes are? The Civil Service used to have graduate and direct-entry routes, both of which could lead to the highest levels. These days, most will be graduates. It is therefore all the more important that those in government listen to the practitioners and heed their advice. I hope the Minister will be open to these important amendments, and I beg to move.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I completely support the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Garden. I do not think that any Peer who has been involved in the Bill wishes it anything other than complete success. We are all behind the objectives and the methodology which is set out in the Sainsbury report and what has been built upon that. We want to ensure in the passage of the Bill that what we are producing will work well.
In the process of putting the Bill together, certain ideas have been developed which will not weather exposure to practice. When it comes to sitting down with industries, awarding bodies and others, the ideas that are being touted as the way things will be under the Bill will not be the things that work out. I want to make sure that the Bill has sufficient flexibility built into it so that, if things need to take a different turn to make this project succeed, they will be able to, and we will not find ourselves hobbled by primary legislation.
I have one separate amendment in this group that is aimed at the question of multiple qualifications within one particular sub-route—I do not yet know what they will be called; in the picture supplied to us they look like the fingers of a hand, although I do not think they will be called fingers. To restrict yourself to one single awarding organisation creates a monopoly in the short term, and in the long term it reinforces it. If you take one particular skill set within the universe covered by the Bill, and you say, “Only this awarding organisation can create qualifications for this for the next seven years”, what other awarding organisation will maintain the ability to compete? None of them will. Why should they? There is no business for seven years and they cannot afford to do it. It is all based on a collection of people, and anyway it is not something that stays still; it continuously evolves. There is no way that they will remain in a position to compete, so when you come up to the renewal of this single licence, there will be only one competitor.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
My Lords, I wish to say a few words about this group. My name appears on seven of the nine amendments before your Lordships, but I want to speak only on the question of copyright. The noble Baroness, Lady Garden, spoke to this group most effectively and I will not attempt to repeat any of her remarks because that is not necessary, but intellectual property is an important issue and we believe it must be protected.
I am aware that the Government have quoted the OECD as stating that the area of course development is not suitable for the market. It is perhaps counterintuitive for a socialist such as myself to criticise the Government for turning their back on the market in favour of introducing a monopoly. However, on this occasion I have to say—perhaps somewhat grudgingly—that I believe the Government are wrong, as there appears to be no convincing answer to the question raised by noble Lords in Committee as to what would happen if an awarding organisation failed and ultimately collapsed. The Government appear to have no plan B for such a situation, which is a very real matter for concern, not just for noble Lords but for awarding organisations.
Equally, the universally respected City & Guilds has highlighted significant concerns about its future. I think it is fair to say that at various stages in our deliberations on the Bill noble Lords have commented on the need to have qualifications and awarding organisations with some immediate recognition among the population in general. If you went out on to the street and did a vox pop asking people what City & Guilds were, you would get a pretty high proportion giving a reasonably accurate assessment of it. Therefore, I do not think that we should enter lightly into a situation where City & Guilds could be compromised. The organisation has written to noble Lords—as indeed the Minister may have seen—setting out a worst-case scenario, which could mean the end of City & Guilds as an awarding organisation in England and could signal the end of it as an awarding organisation in the devolved nations and internationally. It has also pointed out the potential negative impact on it as an apprenticeship awarding organisation due to a diminished role in the technical education route.
We believe that that should not be allowed to happen. The Bill could be amended but still achieve the aims of the Government’s skills plan through the Institute for Apprenticeships retaining copyright of the occupational standards and common qualification design criteria but allowing licensed qualification providers to retain copyright of the individual qualifications, as mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, and the associated assessment materials.
The amendments in this group would provide some safeguards. I hope that the Minister will appreciate the spirit in which they are presented by noble Lords from across the three main political parties and take them on board, undertaking at least to come back at Third Reading with some proposals to mitigate those concerns.
Baroness Vere of Norbiton
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness and the noble Lords for tabling these amendments. I understand their concerns and hope that I might be able to provide an explanation that will put their mind at rest.
All these amendments relate to the copyright measures in Schedule 1. I know that how we implement the copyright measures is a cause for concern for awarding organisations, but it is important to understand that we would not be proposing these measures were they not vital for the success of the technical education reforms. I reassure noble Lords, on the record, that the legislation as set out in the Bill ensures that there is already a substantial amount of flexibility in how to implement the new system.
I should also say that it is not our intention to introduce legislation that disadvantages awarding organisations. They make a huge contribution and play a vital role in our technical education system, and we will continue to work with them to implement the reforms in the most appropriate and sensible manner. That work is ongoing and we are working with stakeholders to develop a commercial strategy that sets out in more detail how we will ensure a competitive and well-managed market for technical education qualifications. The Bill as drafted already allows us to do this.
I will take each amendment in turn. Amendment 24 would mean that the Institute for Apprenticeships could approve a technical qualification only when it had identified documents relating to,
“standards and common qualification criteria”,
and that these documents should be subject to the copyright transfer. As drafted, the legislation requires that copyright should apply to “relevant course documents”, by which we mean documents relating to the teaching and assessment of the qualifications. The Bill allows the institute the flexibility to define what is meant by “relevant course documents”. This will form part of the ongoing work to determine exactly how the measures will be implemented.
If the institute does not own the copyright for relevant course documents that are central to the delivery and assessment of a qualification, the reforms to technical education will be substantially undermined. There are a number of reasons for this. First, the new qualifications will be based on occupational standards and outline qualification content that have been developed by employers as convened by the institute. The institute will own the copyright for these. Documents relating to the teaching and assessment of qualifications that are developed by the awarding organisations will be extensions of these original documents.
Furthermore, the licensing model will succeed only if there is continuity in the system. Our intention is that, at the end of a licence period—and indeed if an organisation happens to fall into financial difficulties—there will be a new organisation, and the incoming organisation should not have to develop a completely new set of qualification documents, when the existing documents are likely to continue to be relevant or require only minor updating. In addition, it would simply not be a good use of taxpayers’ money to be paying for the development of a full suite of new materials every few years. Indeed, this defeats one of the aims of these reforms. The institute will make sure that the terms of the licence reflect the costs of developing and delivering a qualification. We have a duty to make sure that our skills system works in the interests of students and employers, and we have a responsibility to do so in the most cost-effective manner.
Amendment 25 would require the institute to make appropriate inquiries into the persons entitled to a right or interest in any copyright that could transfer. While I appreciate the intention behind the proposed changes, I hope to persuade noble Lords that it is unnecessary. New Section A2DA allows the institute, if it considers it appropriate, to approve a technical education qualification. As the legislation is currently drafted, the copyright of relevant course documents would transfer to the institute.
We recognise that there might be multiple contributors to the development of a technical education qualification, and that they are likely to want a say in matters that relate to their particular part. It would clearly be impracticable for the institute to obtain the individual consent of multiple contributors—it may not know the identity of many and they may have been subcontractors. We therefore expect that the organisation granted a licence to deliver a qualification would ensure that the authors of documents have given their consent.
The provisions as drafted already allow for the intention behind the amendment to be achieved. It requires that the institute is satisfied that each person who it thinks is entitled to a right or interest in the copyright agrees to that right or interest being transferred to the institute. We expect this to be part of the licensing arrangements too. We do not think the institute could not be satisfied that persons have agreed to the transfer unless it has received the information, which may necessitate an inquiry. Therefore, the amendment does not add anything.
Amendment 26 would replace “transferred” with “assigned”. Taken in isolation, we accept that this is unlikely to have any material effect on the proposed measures relating to copyright. However, the measure makes a similar provision to the transfer of copyright for relevant course documents as we have already done for the transfer of standards and apprenticeship assessment plans. The use of the term “transferred” in both measures is therefore designed to assure the reader that these provisions are consistent with each other.
We anticipate that the institute will hold an open competition inviting organisations to submit outline proposals to develop a qualification against pre-set criteria. Once the qualification is developed in line with the institute’s requirements, full approval would be granted with certain terms and conditions attached, including in relation to copyright of the documents defined as “relevant course documents”. The contract is likely to be a concession agreement, whereby the successful organisation enters into an agreement with the institute to have the exclusive right to offer the qualification for the duration of the contract period. At the end of the approval period, the institute would run another open competition, giving both the incumbent and other organisations the opportunity to put forward a bid.
Lord Lucas
I am grateful for what my noble friend said on my amendments, but to turn to the main group, where she has adumbrated some new ideas in very few words, might we have a meeting between Report and Third Reading so that we can better understand the details of what is proposed?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for her full reply on all this, but I am left as confused as at the start. There is this curious thing that the institute can grant a licence back to the awarding body that actually created the materials in the first place or can give them to multiple awarding organisations. I find that a curious concept given that awarding organisations have to have a commercial structure and to make ends meet, and the materials with which they trade are very often their assessment materials. The Minister has made great play of the fact that there is flexibility in the Bill. But the trouble is that, by the time the Bill goes through with these measures enshrined that copyright is transferred to the institute, there is not much flexibility there if copyright is once lost to the institute.
There were a number of other things that I will read in detail in the Minister’s reply. I will not go through the different points that I have scribbled down because they merit a lot of thought. I also pick up the request made by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, that we will need some serious conversations about this because it will come back at Third Reading for a vote unless we can get some clearer reassurance.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
Can we be clear that this can be brought back at Third Reading and that we can have a debate on principles? That would be very important in bringing this to a conclusion tonight. It is essential that we know that we can bring this back at Third Reading.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
Yes. It will definitely come back at Third Reading.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
There is no guarantee at all because the clerks are tight about what they will allow. The Government have to agree that they will allow us to bring it back. That is why I made the point.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
We were hoping that we could have a dialogue about this because these matters are key to the success of apprenticeships. But if that is the Minister’s approach, I beg leave to test the opinion of the House.
Technical and Further Education Bill
Monday 27th March 2017
(7 years, 7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Technical and Further Education Act 2017 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 107-I Manuscript amendments for Report, supplementary to the marshalled list (PDF, 56KB) - (27 Mar 2017)
“( ) about permission for the use of the DfE logo and standard wording on technical education certificates;”
Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)
My Lords, I fear that this may be something of an anti-climax after the previous excitement. Nevertheless, I wish to move Amendment 34 and speak also to Amendment 35. They have the support of the noble Lords, Lord Lucas and Lord Watson, and of my noble friend Lord Storey.
As we set out in Committee, there are quite a few questions to be asked about the institute’s power to issue technical education certificates. We understand that this will not be done by the institute but be delegated to the Skills Funding Agency. Either way, public time and money will be used to duplicate a function which is already well covered under existing systems.
This proposal was not set out in the skills plan. It potentially removes any continuing link between the awarding body and the qualification that it has produced. We are here attempting to clarify the relationship between the issuing of the proposed certificates and the qualification certificates issued by awarding organisations. Are the Government proposing to issue these “technical education certificates” alongside the awarding organisation’s certificate?
We heard earlier from the Minister that employers would pay for the certificate. It would be helpful to hear more about who makes the application. Does it come from the employer, from the training provider or from the awarding body? Is it automatically triggered by attainment of a qualification?
I do not think that we have had an assessment of the resources required by the institute, or the SFA, to authenticate, print and send out the 3 million apprenticeship certificates to meet the government target. Will the institute require the addresses of all the candidates or will they be sent to the employer or training provider to distribute?
There is a very simple solution. Government issuing of certificates is not common procedure at qualification level in any other area of the education and training system and would appear to bestow unnecessary cost, duplication and complexity on to whichever body is tasked with carrying it out. Would it not be simpler if the certificate issued by the awarding organisation also carried the logo of the institute or of the Department for Education? This has been common practice in the past, including with national vocational qualifications, and would have the benefit of adding government backing and status to a certificate already being validated, processed and issued.
I assure your Lordships that awarding bodies can produce some immensely impressive certificates to meet immensely impressive achievements. I hope that the amendment will be seen as positive and helpful. I beg to move.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Lord Nash) (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, and the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for tabling these amendments. A fundamental reason for introducing the technical education reforms is to tackle the weakness in the current 16 to 19 education system caused by fragmentation and variation in the quality and value of the qualification certificates currently provided by many individual awarding organisations.
To address this, it is important that the technical education certificates are issued consistently by one entity under consistent branding so that they are recognised and understood by employers regardless of the qualification or where it was undertaken. The Bill makes provision for the Secretary of State to issue a technical education certificate to any person who has completed a technical education qualification and any other steps determined under new Section A2DB.
Those completing either an apprenticeship or a technical education course will receive a nationally awarded certificate from the Secretary of State. This will confirm that they obtained as many of the key skills and behaviours as the institute deems appropriate for a particular occupation. The technical education certificate will also recognise the other essential elements such as attainment in English and maths, completion of work placements and other route-specific qualifications. The certificate will demonstrate to employers that individuals obtained the knowledge, skills and behaviours necessary to undertake their chosen occupation. It will provide clarity for employers and support the portability and progression value of the qualifications.
As currently drafted, these amendments will allow the Secretary of State to use the DfE logo and standard wording on technical education certificates—which of course she may already do. It is also right that only the certificate should bear the department’s logo and standard wording. This will also ensure that certificates for technical education align as closely as possible with certificates for apprenticeships. However, this will not affect any arrangements that the institute entered into with an organisational consortium that is approved to deliver a technical education qualification. These arrangements are likely to include the use of their own logo or branding on any certificate that they issue in respect of that qualification.
We expect costs to be incurred in issuing the certificates. It is therefore right that the Secretary of State should be able to determine whether to charge for the first technical education certificate and a copy of it, and if so how much. This is consistent with the procedure already followed for charging for the issuing of apprenticeship certificates or supplying copies of them. Our reforms will ensure we operate a system for the future, providing a national offer that is recognised and understood by employers regardless of the qualification or where it is undertaken.
I hope that clarifies the situation for the noble Baroness. She made a point about how the institute will be aware of the addresses of recipients. That information will come via the awarding organisation to the institute. Students must apply to the Secretary of State for their certificate. If I have not answered all the points that the noble Baroness is concerned about, I am happy to discuss this with her further and to provide more information. In that spirit, I hope she will feel reassured to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I thank the Minister for his reply. I am slightly bemused because employers seem to understand very well the previous certificates that went out, with NVQ and awarding-body logos. There was not a particular confusion about the standards there. As I say, given that the awarding organisations already issue certificates, it would seem a much neater operation if it was combined into one certificate instead of having the confusion of two. I thank the noble Lord for his offer to have further discussion on this and meanwhile beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Technical and Further Education Bill
Tuesday 4th April 2017
(7 years, 7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Technical and Further Education Act 2017 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 107-I Manuscript amendments for Report, supplementary to the marshalled list (PDF, 56KB) - (27 Mar 2017)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Lord Nash) (Con)
My Lords, before the Bill’s Third Reading draws to a close, I take this opportunity to thank all those involved for their interest in and engagement with the Bill over the past few months. There have been important contributions on the Bill from all sides of the House, and we have had very well-informed and thoughtful debates on a number of issues that are critical to ensuring the future health of our country’s technical and further education sectors. In particular, I thank noble Lords for their efforts to strengthen the areas covered by this legislation, which we will take forward when the Bill and its related policies are implemented. I very much hope that discussions continue with noble Lords about technical and further education. There is much work to be done in this area, so the expertise and wisdom of noble Lords is very welcome.
Yesterday, I met the noble Baronesses, Lady Garden and Lady Watkins, to discuss the failure of private providers and, in particular, the support given to learners affected. I thank them for discussing this issue with me. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, who was unable to attend but who has shared her thoughts with my officials. It is clear from our discussions that this is a matter requiring more detailed consideration before we take a view on what action is necessary. We are already taking steps to improve our monitoring of these providers. However, as I said yesterday, we will do further work to explore the scale of the issue and identify a proportionate response to ensure the right support is provided to learners in the rare instances of failure.
I am afraid there is not time to thank everyone who has been involved in the Bill during its passage through this House, but I would like to mention who I can. First, I thank my noble friends on the Government Benches, and in particular my noble friends Lady Vere and Lady Buscombe, who have provided strong support to the Bill. I also thank my noble friend Lord Baker, particularly for his amendment regarding careers advice in schools. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Lucas for his in-depth engagement with the Bill, especially with respect to the issues of copyright and intellectual property. I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Liverpool, whose thoughtful contributions included the important issue of the soft skills that young people need to thrive in the workplace.
I particularly thank the noble Lords, Lord Watson and Lord Storey, who have provided rigorous scrutiny and opposition alongside their colleagues the noble Lords, Lord Hunt and Lord Stevenson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Garden. I thank also the noble Baronesses, Lady Cohen, Lady Donaghy and Lady Morris, and the noble Lords, Lord Young of Norwood Green, Lord Blunkett and Lord Knight, for their thoughtful contributions. While we have disagreed on some issues, I believe we are in broad agreement about the importance of the Bill and all support its ambition to improve technical and further education.
I am grateful also to my friends on the Cross Benches for their thoughtful contributions, including the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins. In particular, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, for her support on the Bill and her role in developing its underlying policy.
Finally, I thank policy officials and lawyers from the Department for Education and other government departments for their work on the Bill’s progress in this House.
It has been a privilege to debate this Bill with noble Lords. It will help pave the way for reforms to technical and further education. It will allow us to create a world-class technical education system that provides all young people with the opportunities they deserve, and let them secure sustained, skilled employment that serves the needs of our country, today and in the future. At the same time, the Bill’s further education insolvency regime will ensure that FE colleges are put on a secure financial footing in the long term. I commend the Bill to the House.
Lord Baker of Dorking (Con)
My Lords, I want to comment on how the Bill has been handled in this House. When we saw the Bill that came from the Commons, it seemed a very trivial Bill and quite difficult to understand. The words were dry on the page and the opacity was complete: we had no clear idea what the Government were trying to do. However, during the course of the Bill, those with an interest were privileged to have a series of meetings—not just one or two, but several—with officials from the department and with the Ministers themselves, at which we learned a tremendous amount about the Bill and the apprenticeship system that the Government are setting up, which is going to cost £3.5 billion. None of this was obvious when you read the Bill. Those meetings led us to understand how important the Bill was. Therefore, I very much congratulate the department on providing a series of meetings and the Minister on the support he has given us. It is a very good way of handling a Bill in this House and has worked very well.
Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)
My Lords, I, too, thank the Government for the series of meetings and echo what the noble Lord, Lord Baker, has said.
I was a little disappointed with the letter sent to us on 30 March. The noble Baroness, Lady Vere of Norbiton, promised on 27 March, at col. 391 of Hansard, to write about the question of signing of contracts, but the letter does not tell us whether or not this is taking place.
We had a significant debate on the question of transition to new technical qualifications but there is no mention of that in the letter. There is in the new guidance issued for the Institute for Apprenticeships, but that merely says:
“We expect the institute to take into account the Department for Education’s development of technical education routes to allow for a smooth transition”.
However, the noble Lord promised that there would be more detailed guidance on the question of transition, so I expected at least a reference to it.
I do not wish to prolong the process but it was disappointing that the House of Commons paper 206 gave apprenticeships a bit of a panning. I do not concur with everything it says but some of the points it makes are valid and worthy of the Minister’s attention, in particular the distribution of the levy and how we will target apprenticeships in areas where there is a drastic skills shortage—in engineering, construction and IT. I would welcome comment from the Minister on that.
Apart from those few caveats, I, too, welcome the way in which the Bill has been handled.
Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)
My Lords, from the Liberal Democrat Benches I add our thanks to the Minister, the noble Baronesses, Lady Vere and Lady Buscombe, and the Bill team for their engagement, briefings and meetings in the course of the Bill’s passage.
We were grateful that the Government accepted the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Baker, early on, which promised more movement than we subsequently achieved, but we hope that those amendments agreed by the House will be confirmed by the Commons when the Bill returns to it, particularly that of my noble friend Lord Storey on careers advice in FE colleges. We also welcome the movement on private providers and I thank the Minister for the meeting yesterday on that.
Perhaps as a result of the Bill we might hear more about the EBacc including more creative and technical subjects, to promote practical skills in the school timetable. It is surely in order that skills should be raised as early as possible in the schools programme, to open opportunities at an early stage to young people whose enthusiasms lie that way.
As the Minister is aware, we still have considerable concerns that some of the measures in the Bill will damage the chances for the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education to be as effective as it needs to be. Among them is the issue of copyright, which will impede the awarding bodies in giving the wholehearted co-operation they might wish to give. I am grateful that we have a meeting with officials and others to discuss this in greater detail and hope that the Government might find a way forward before the Bill becomes law which does not prevent some of the most expert champions of practical, technical education from playing their full part.
There are other issues, such as single awarding bodies, consortia and certification which we would wish to continue to discuss and monitor. There is a deal of complexity in the model that the Government are proposing, and complexity does not help to promote the skills agenda.
In wishing the institute every success in its ambitious aims, we would also wish to check that it has the framework and the resources to raise the profile and standards of technical work-based achievement. We hope that it will continue to consult and take advice from those who have many years of experience in this sector—employers, awarding bodies, trainers and lecturers—who have ensured brilliant achievements by many people in skills areas. We only have to think of the UK’s successes in world skills competitions, for instance, and of some of our great entrepreneurs and leaders who began their careers through a skills-based route to see that we are not starting from scratch.
However, there is a mounting skills gap. In the interests of the country, the community and the individual learners, we have to hope that this Bill and the institute fulfil the high expectations placed upon them.
Once again, I express the thanks of these Benches for the way in which scrutiny has been conducted.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)
My Lords, I have not written a speech but, if I had, it would have been more or less word for word what the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, has just said. That is probably an embarrassment to her, but there we are.
The Bill is not the heaviest we have dealt with or will deal with, but it has dealt with important matters. We have all recorded our disappointment that so much of it was to do with the insolvency angle, some of which has caused difficulties to further education colleges, bank loans and, potentially, pensions, but they will have to be dealt with down the line.
The fact that the Institute for Apprenticeships was established a few days ago is a welcome sign. I agree with my noble friend Lord Young that it was disappointing that the letter dated 30 March from the noble Baroness, Lady Vere, did not go into enough detail on what we were looking for in our amendment last week on the institute. However, it will develop and will become the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education in a year’s time and we look forward to that.
I will say a word to the Minister which reflects the report to which my noble friend Lord Young referred. The business last week of the House of Commons sub-committee on education is worth reading. I do not agree with all of it but it highlighted the point—which was also raised by these Benches and other noble Lords over the past few weeks—that it is essential that the 3 million target does not allow quantity to trump quality. It is the quality of the apprenticeships that are provided in the years to come that will decide whether or not this is a success. We have to keep banging that drum. I know from what he has said that the Minister believes that as well. We will have to make sure that it happens.
I thank all those involved in the Bill. The Public Bill Office, as ever, has been extremely helpful. The Minister and the noble Baronesses, Lady Vere and Lady Buscombe, have been, if not accommodating in Committee, helpful in the briefings that we have had. The Minister’s officials and the meetings they set up have been useful in giving a better understanding of the Bill, its intentions, and how we might work with it or frame amendments to try and change it. I finish by thanking my colleagues, my noble friends Lord Stevenson and Lord Hunt. The Minister has a vast array and army of officials behind him but we have only one person—Dan Stevens, the legislative and political adviser for our team. He has been a tireless worker on what was his first Bill and I can pay him no greater compliment than to say that you would not know it.
Technical and Further Education Bill
Wednesday 19th April 2017
(7 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Technical and Further Education Act 2017 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Commons Consideration of Lords Amendments as at 19 April 2017 - (19 Apr 2017)
15:43 - The House divided: - Ayes: 298 / Noes: 182 - Question accordingly agreed to.
Mr Speaker
I must draw the House’s attention to the fact that financial privilege is engaged by Lords amendment 1. I also remind the House that certain of the motions relating to the Lords amendments will be certified as relating exclusively to England or to England and Wales, as set out on the selection paper. If the House divides on any certified motion, a double majority will be required for the motion to be passed.
After Clause 1
Financial Support for Students Undertaking Apprenticeships
The Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills (Robert Halfon)
I beg to move, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 1.
Mr Speaker
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Lords amendment 6, Government motion to disagree, and Government amendment (a) in lieu.
Lords amendments 2 to 5 and 7 to 18.
Robert Halfon
This Bill was introduced to transform the prestige and culture of technical education, providing young people with the skills that they, and our country, need. It provides necessary protection for students should colleges get into financial difficulty, and ensures that the most disadvantaged are able to climb the ladder of opportunity. It left this House after thoughtful scrutiny and, after similar diligence in the other place, I am delighted that it returns for consideration here today.
I ask hon. Members to support the Government on all amendments made to the Bill in the other place except amendments 1 and 6, where we have tabled an amendment in lieu. Amendment 1 impinges on the financial privilege of this House. I urge the House to disagree to that amendment and will ask the Reasons Committee to ascribe financial privilege as the reason.
The amendment, costing more than £200 million per year by financial year 2020-21, would mean that the parents of apprentices aged under 20 would continue to be eligible for child benefit for those young people as if they were in approved education and training. It is an issue in which I have a great interest. Apprenticeships provide a ladder of opportunity, and we should seek to remove obstacles to social mobility wherever we can.
A young person’s first full-time job is a big change for them and for their family, and it marks a move into financial independence that should be celebrated. I know that the adjustment can be challenging for the young person learning how to manage a starting wage and new outgoings and for parents who may experience a fall in income from the benefits they previously received for that dependent child. One of the core principles of an apprenticeship is that it is a job, and it is treated accordingly in the benefit system. It is a job that offers high-quality training and that widens opportunities. Moreover, more than 90% of apprentices continue into another job on completion. Most apprentices are paid above the minimum wage. The 2016 apprenticeship pay survey showed that the average wage for all level 2 and 3 apprentices was £6.70.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
Although what the Minister is saying is correct, in that those apprentices will be paid, taking child benefit away from low-income families will be a disincentive for them to take up apprenticeships. Those families will be pressed to stay in education so that they can continue to get child benefit. Is that not the case?
Robert Halfon
The crucial point is that the vast majority of level 2 and 3 apprentices are paid more than £6.30 an hour, and 90% of them go on to jobs or additional education afterwards.
The apprenticeship programme already supports low-income groups. The funding system gives targeted support to the participation of care leavers, and this year we are making £60 million available to training providers to support take-up by individuals from disadvantaged areas. We are committed to ensuring that high-quality apprenticeships are as accessible as possible to people from all backgrounds. We will take forward the Maynard recommendations for people with learning difficulties and our participation target for black and minority ethnic groups.
With regard to the amendment’s suggestion of a bursary for care leavers, I understand that some young people have greater challenges to overcome. That is why we are providing £1,000 to employers and training providers when they take on care leavers who are under 25. We will also pay 100% of the cost of training for small employers who employ care leavers. There is scope for apprenticeships to benefit social mobility even more. We are working across Government to use the apprenticeship programme to extend opportunities.
I am grateful to Lord Storey for tabling Lords amendment 6, which introduces a new clause into the Bill to require Ofsted to take into account the quality of the careers offer when conducting standard inspections of further education colleges. I welcome the work that Ofsted has already done to sharpen its approach. Matters relating to careers provision feature in all the graded judgments made by Ofsted when inspecting FE and skills providers. Destination data—published in 16 to 18 performance tables for the first time this year—are also becoming an established part of college accountability. Those are important steps.
I pay tribute to the good work that is already being done throughout the FE sector to prepare students for the workplace. Ofsted’s annual report for 2015-16 cites the excellent work of Derby College, which has set up employer academies so that learners benefit throughout their course from a range of activities, including workplace visits, talks from specialist speakers, masterclasses and enterprise activities. However, Ofsted noted in the same report that the quality of information, advice and guidance in FE providers can vary and does not always meet the full range of students’ needs. That is why I want us to take this opportunity to go further.
Lords amendment 6 signals our determination to ensure that every FE student has access to good-quality, dedicated careers advice, which I know this House supports. That is vital if we are to tackle the skills gap and ensure that we make opportunities accessible to everyone. We have proposed some drafting changes to the amendment to ensure that it achieves its intended effect. The amendment makes it clear that in its inspection report Ofsted must comment on the quality of a college’s careers provision. I urge hon. Members to accept the amendment. FE colleges are engines of social mobility, and this is our chance to ensure that students from all backgrounds can access the support they need to get on the ladder of opportunity and to benefit from the best skills education and training.
I will now turn to the amendments that the Government are asking the House to accept without any further amendment. The Government support Lords amendment 2, which requires schools to give education and training providers the opportunity to talk directly to pupils about the approved technical education qualifications and apprenticeships they offer. I would like to place on the record my significant gratitude to Lord Baker of Dorking for tabling the amendment, and for his unstinting support for the Government’s technical education reforms. As I have explained, high-quality careers advice is the first rung on the ladder of opportunity and will play a key part in realising our ambition for high-quality skills education and training. The amendment will strengthen the Bill by ensuring that young people hear much more consistently about the merits of technical education routes and recognise them as worthy career paths. I urge the House to agree to it. I hope that never again when I go around the country will I meet an apprentice who was refused access to the school they were taught in to talk about apprenticeships.
Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)
I actually welcome that proposal. We have heard lots of evidence that schools are not allowing FE colleges and apprenticeship providers to access their students and to tell them what the options are post-16. That, of course, is because of the “bums on seats” funding regime for post-16 studies in schools. How are we going to get around the deep-seated culture in schools that prevents careers advisers and others from providing that independent, impartial advice to young people in schools?
Robert Halfon
The hon. Gentleman speaks a lot of sense on this issue. Every time I meet an apprentice, wherever I am in the country, I ask them, “Did your school encourage you to do an apprenticeship?” Nine times out of 10, they say that their school taught them nothing about apprenticeships and skills. We have already changed careers advice so that schools have to offer advice that includes apprenticeships and skills. I believe that Lords amendment 2 will make a huge difference, because technical bodies, apprenticeship bodies and university technical colleges will be able to go into schools, and schools will publish policy guidance on this.
I agree that a huge part of this is about cultural change. That is why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State always talks about parity of esteem. Until we ensure that we have parity of esteem between skills and technical education and going to university—that is also a wonderful thing to do—we will not achieve the cultural change that the hon. Gentleman talks about.
Ian Mearns
There is a problem with that, because training providers themselves have a vested interest—just as much as the schools do—in securing those students for their courses or apprenticeships. Is it not true that we need a much more robust process for the provision of impartial advice and guidance that does not include anyone’s vested interests?
Robert Halfon
We are looking at careers guidance in the long term, and at how we can make it more independent and skills-focused. I think that the work of the Careers & Enterprise Company in getting more people to do work experience, along with the money we are investing in these things, will help, but there are no easy answers. There are some great private providers, FE colleges and university technical colleges that I would love to see going into schools. However, I think that this is an important step forward to change the culture and ensure that pupils have the access to learn about apprenticeships and the technical education and skills that they need.
Lords amendment 3 introduces a new clause specifically providing for regulations to be made about the delivery of documents about an insolvent FE body to the registrar, and how those documents are kept and accessed by the public. Essentially, the new clause allows for the proper management of the paperwork of an insolvency procedure for an FE body.
I am pleased that the Government were able to accept amendment 4 in the other place, which deleted the words “if possible” from clause 25(2). The original drafting of subsection (2) was intended to offer reassurance to creditors and the education administrator that the education administration would not continue indefinitely while we waited for the education administrator to achieve the impossible. Instead, it caused concern, both in this House and in the other place, that student protection was in some way lessened. That was not our intention. Having sought the confirmation of lawyers that there was no change to our policy objectives, we were content to delete the words in order to address those concerns.
Lords amendment 5 replaced the original clause in the Bill with a new version in order to fully apply, rather than replicate, the Company Directors Disqualification Act 1986 to further education bodies in England and Wales. The new version of clause 40—formerly clause 37 —still allows the court to disqualify any governors whom it finds liable of wrongdoing from being governors, and now also from being company directors in any part of the UK. It fully prevents disqualified individuals from being able to repeat the mistakes they have made in a different way, potentially at the expense of another FE institution. We have amended the clause to close a potential loophole in the Bill and more fully protect learners at FE institutions from the potential actions of any governor who acts recklessly.
Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)
I am grateful to the Minister for his considered exposition of the Government’s position, particularly regarding the amendments, with which we are not in dispute. I shall say something about Lords amendment 2 after turning to Lords amendment 1. We welcome the Government’s changes, particularly those to the technical parts of the Bill. The devil is in the detail, and we do not always get these things right first time around. I am grateful to the Government for reflecting on that.
I particularly take on board what the Minister said about care leavers and local authorities. Without straying outside the narrow confines of today’s discussions, may I say that I hope that the recent debates in the House on the Children and Social Work Bill, in which my hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mrs Lewell-Buck) played a strong, positive and constructive part, have been a useful focus for the Minister and his Department in tabling the amendments that he has spoken to today. I am grateful to him for that.
I am also grateful for the widened information sharing in schedule 1. As the Minister knows, I have described the present structure as a bit of an alphabet soup. To strain the analogy, I hope that this change will enable us to fish some of the letters out of the soup and make them work together a little easier than they would otherwise have done.
As the Minister says, the issue in Lords amendment 1could be regarded as one of financial privilege. I accept that he has great interest in matters of financial support and the rest of it. I hope that he understands that I have never, in any shape or form, and in any of the Committee sittings in which we have debated, disavowed his good intentions and commitment to issues of equality. But, of course, warm words of themselves do not necessarily carry through the projects that we all want to see. When he says that most apprenticeships have benefits, one has to ask about the fate of people who do not get those benefits. He says that this proposal will cost £200 million but, as he said, we are already committing £60 million to training providers, so I am not sure that that is a strong or powerful argument.
Gordon Marsden
I will give way in a little while. I want to make some progress on the main issue before giving way to the hon. Gentleman.
I am proud of the fact that the noble Lords considered the matter addressed in amendment 1, which I support, in considerable detail. In doing so, they revealed how much further the Government needed to go and, in my view, still need to go. In February, The Times Educational Supplement published an eloquent chart that spelled out in graphic detail the current gap in support between students and apprentices. It showed that apprentices have no access to care to learn grants, and that their families have no access to universal credit and council tax credit. Most trenchant and relevant when it comes to amendment 1, they have no access to child benefit.
Amendment 1 would enable families eligible for child benefit to receive it for children aged under 20 who are undertaking apprenticeships. The Opposition understand, as I am sure Government Members do, that it is not simply about the benefit itself, but the doors that that benefit opens to other benefits.
Charlie Elphicke
I have listened carefully to the hon. Gentleman’s argument, which seems to involve a spending commitment of £200 million. How would he pay for that?
Gordon Marsden
First, we do not recognise that figure of £200 million. Secondly, as I have said, the Government are already committing £60 million to training providers, so I really do not know why the hon. Gentleman is raising the issue of £200 million, which would be aggregated over a period of time.
Gordon Marsden
No, I will not give way again. The hon. Gentleman has had one go. I want to make progress.
The amendment calls for the Secretary of State to use regulations to make provision to ensure that apprentices are regarded as being involved in approved education or training. The Government’s apprenticeships programme has seen the introduction of the Institute for Apprenticeships and the apprenticeship levy this month, while setting the target of 3 million apprenticeships by 2020. However, many commentators have continued to raise real question marks about the potential quality of those new apprenticeships. It is really important that in reducing the growing skills gap in this country apprentices are not given a raw deal. My noble Friend Lord Watson spelled this out vividly in the House of Lords when he said:
“Why should families suffer as we seek to train young people desperately needed to fill the skills gaps that I mentioned earlier?”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 27 March 2017; Vol. 782, c. 361.]
We simply ask that question.
I am well aware—we discussed this in Committee in this place and it was also discussed in the other place—that apprenticeships are not currently classed as approved educational training by the Department for Work and Pensions. That is one of the reasons we have raised this issue so many times. The Minister needs to reflect on the situation of apprentices who live with parents and whose families could lose out by more than £1,000 a year through not being able to access child benefit, and could lose more than £3,200 a year under universal credit. If the Government want to reach this target, it cannot be in anyone’s interest for doors to be closed to young people keen to take up and embark on an apprenticeship.
The predecessor Government—perhaps this has not been heard so much under this Government—were very fond of the concept of “nudge” to achieve results, but, as I have said on other occasions, people can be nudged away from things as well as towards them. In some circumstances, parents may prevent young people from taking up apprenticeships because the economic consequences for the family of loss of benefit payments in various forms could be considerable. Their lordships made this point in their debate on 27 February. Baroness Garden noted that
“only 10% of apprenticeships are taken up by young people on free school meals”,
adding that
“the loss of child benefit”
was
“a significant penalty.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 27 February 2017; Vol. 779, c. GC99.]
Baroness Wolf spoke very strongly when she said, echoing the Minister, that there needs to be genuine parity if the Government want to fulfil a holistic vision.
As I have said, the exclusions printed in The Times Educational Supplement justify the anger and disappointment of the National Union of Students and apprenticeship organisations, which feel that they are being treated like second-class citizens. I accept that, as the Minister said, some apprentices are being paid well above the minimum rate, but research has shown that some apprentices earn as little as £3.50 an hour.
Charlie Elphicke
Since the hon. Gentleman is talking about financial matters again, will he return to my earlier intervention when he said that he did recognise the figure of £200 million? How much would his policy cost?
Gordon Marsden
As I say, those issues would be taken forward over a five-year period. The £200 million figure that the Minister quoted has not been recognised, and I do not intend to engage with it any further because no further detail has been given to us on this point.
Gordon Marsden
No, I am sorry, but I am not going to give way again. The hon. Gentleman has had two shouts and he is out. [Interruption.] I am going to continue, so he can stop chuntering.
This will inevitably have a negative effect on the family income in circumstances where the household budget is not covered by the earnings in an apprentice’s salary, given that the apprentice minimum wage is barely over £3 an hour. The National Society of Apprentices made that point in its submission to the Committee, saying:
“It seems inconsistent that apprentices are continually excluded from definitions of ‘approved’ learners, when apprenticeships are increasingly assuming their place in the government’s holistic view of education and skills”.
If apprenticeships are to be seen as a top-tier option, then the benefits should be top tier too. University students receive assistance from a range of sources, from accessing finance to discounted rates on council tax. Apprentices currently do not receive many of those benefits. Their lordships believe, and we agree, that the system must be changed so that both groups are treated equally.
Robert Halfon
I thank the hon. Gentleman for the way in which he is approaching these amendments. He mentioned that some apprentices were paid more than the apprentice minimum wage. Is he aware that 82% of apprentices are paid at or above the appropriate level of the national minimum wage or national living wage?
Gordon Marsden
Those figures come from the Minister’s Department, and I am not going to dispute them on this occasion. We are trying to set, in legislation, provisions that will be valid for five, 10 or 15 years. It seems far more appropriate to have a principle under which everybody has equal access. We can trade figures all day about whether this is acceptable or whether it is 10%, 15%, 20% or 25% of apprentices who are not in this position. I do not believe that we should go down this route, and Members of the House of Lords agreed when they passed this amendment.
Shakira Martin, the NUS vice-president for FE, says:
“If apprenticeships are going to be the silver bullet to create a high-skilled economy for the future, the government has to go further than rhetoric and genuinely support apprentices financially to succeed.”
In support of this amendment, the Learning and Work Institute has said:
“There are currently participation penalties for low income and disadvantaged young people who take an apprenticeship compared to an academic pathway. This amendment would help towards treating apprentices and students in further and higher education equally in the support and benefits system.”
The Government’s decision to exclude apprenticeships from the category of approved education or training will serve as a deterrent to young people, particularly those from disadvantaged backgrounds. Together with that, and without any change to the category that apprentices are placed in by the DWP—FE has to accept that, as things stand at the moment—the Government are providing a severe financial disincentive for young people to enter into an apprenticeship as opposed to other routes of education. The National Society of Apprentices agrees.
In the other place, the Minister’s colleague, Baroness Buscombe, said that there would be discussions about this issue with colleagues in the Department for Work and Pensions, but that did not happen. The Minister has told me on previous occasions that this needed to be addressed and discussed with other Departments, but that has not happened. This is a Government who are long on rhetoric but short on delivery, and it is young people and their families who are suffering. The Government are now blocking a modest proposal from the House of the Lords to begin to remedy their inability to do joined-up government.
Robert Halfon
The hon. Gentleman will know that, as I have mentioned before, we are carrying out a social mobility review of a whole range of issues, from benefits to incentives to providers and employers, to get more apprentices from disadvantaged backgrounds. It is entirely wrong to say that we are not doing so, as a significant amount of work is going into these areas.
Gordon Marsden
I am grateful to the Minister. The broader perspective of social mobility is a perfectly reasonable way of going forward. However, to be honest, particularly at a time such as today when we are moving to a general election, I think that most people would be interested in some movement—some jam now rather than a promise of jam possibly in future from the social mobility study. I will come on to talk about other areas where, I am afraid, the Government have moved at, to put it at its kindest, a reasonably glacial pace. That is one of the reasons I am not terribly impressed by the Minister’s argument, although, as I say, I understand and appreciate his commitment to trying to do something.
I want to speak in support of the second part of the amendment, which talks about opening benefits to care leavers by opening up access to a bursary that has traditionally been available only to university students. Young people in local authority care who move into higher education can apply for a one-off bursary of £2,000 from their local authority, and the amendment would enable care leavers who take up apprenticeships to access the same financial support.
I remind the Minister of what the Children’s Society has said. Every year, around 11,000 young people aged 16 or over leave the care of their local authority and begin the difficult transition out of care and into adulthood—to be fair to him, he recognised that in his opening remarks—and my hon. Friend the Member for South Shields tabled an amendment to the Children and Social Work Bill to provide such a local offer to care leavers. The Government have a golden opportunity to follow up on that by focusing on support that could be provided by the DWP. I am at a loss to understand why the Government are ignoring this possibility. They could make provision from the apprenticeship levy for local authorities to administer a £2,000 grant to all care leavers.
When care leavers move into independent living they often begin to manage their own budget fully for the first time, and that move may take place earlier for them than for others in their peer group. Remember that a care leaver in year one of an apprenticeship may be, and often is, earning as little as £3.40 an hour before being able to transition to a higher wage in the second year. Evidence from their services and research has revealed how challenging care leavers may find it to manage that budget, because of a lack of financial support and education. As a result, young carers frequently fall into debt and financial difficulty. The Minister really needs to put himself in their shoes. The Minister for Vulnerable Children and Families, the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Edward Timpson), could tell us all, from his own family’s perspective, how vulnerable young people who come from disturbed and difficult family backgrounds can be.
The question remains: why are the Government not prepared to retain this amendment? Fine words are all very well, but you may know, Madam Deputy Speaker, that according to the old Tudor proverb, “Fine words butter no parsnips”. Just what are the bureaucratic arguments for doing nothing to support hard-working young people and their families—and, even more so, those who do not have families to support them—to fulfil their hopes of better times via an apprenticeship? We talk about parity of esteem between HE students and apprentices, but some of these young people, because of their circumstances, struggle to have a strong sense of self-esteem.
Why have the Government not moved on this? Once again, why have the consultations with the DWP not taken place? Was the Minister nobbled by No. 10 trusties or by those in his own Department, in the same way as Department for Education Ministers seem to have led us down the garden path of reforms to GCSE resits only to slam the door shut? I say as gently as I can to the Minister that if the Government do not retain the amendment, people will know that the Government’s rhetoric has been somewhat hollow, and apprentices and their families will suffer.
I join the Minister in supporting amendment 2, which was carried in the Lords, and I also want to talk about amendment 6. The lack of parity of esteem for apprentices starts at an early age, and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) illustrated in his useful and constructive exchange with the Minister, the rhetoric on careers advice still does not match the painful reality that faces many young people.
The reality is that careers advice has been devastated over the last Parliament and since 2010, certainly at a local level, and young people who want to take a vocational and apprenticeship route are in danger of being short-changed again in their careers advice. Despite the work of the Careers & Enterprise Company, which is still in its infancy, support in schools remains poor. Careers England—the trade body for careers advice and guidance—and the Career Development Institute have confirmed to me recently that in their view, nothing has greatly changed. They estimate that only a third of schools can adequately deliver careers advice. Taken alongside the shortage of careers advisers and the fact that the remaining advisers earn far less than they used to, it adds up to a very difficult position.
That is one of the reasons why last November the co-chairs of the Sub-Committee on Education, Skills and the Economy, the hon. Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) and my hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright), said that the Government had been complacent over careers advice. They said:
“The Government’s lack of action to address failings in careers provision is unacceptable and its response to our report smacks of complacency.”
I know that the Minister challenges that strongly, and I know that he has put on record that the Government are working towards a thorough careers strategy in that respect. But we have to deal with the situation as it is today, not with what it might be under a careers strategy developed by whatever Government are around at the end of the year.
In the survey conducted by the Industry Apprentice Council last year, just 42% of respondents found out about apprenticeships from school or college, and using one’s own initiative remained by far the most common way for a young person to discover apprenticeships. The council also said that there needed to be a change in careers information, advice and guidance because the proportion of respondents who said that theirs had been very poor remained high across the three surveys.
That is why the House of Lords has produced these two quite detailed and comprehensive amendments; those overall issues are not being addressed. Strong careers guidance is critical to promoting apprenticeships in schools. If we are to make a success of the institute, it is crucial that young people are alerted early enough in their school life to the importance and attraction of technical routes. That is one of the things that amendment 2 from the other House, which we supported, makes very clear.
If the Minister does not think that the Lords amendment on careers advice is necessary, perhaps he would like to explain just how and when the Government are going to get a grip on the existing fractured landscape of careers advice revealed by his own Department. Last month—it was not bedtime reading, so I will not be surprised if hon. Members have not read it—the Department for Education published a research report, “An economic evaluation of the National Careers Service”. The report was produced by London Economics, which was originally commissioned by the former Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to evaluate the impact of the National Careers Service.
The National Careers Service has changed considerably during the five years since it was introduced by the Minister’s predecessor, the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes). I had the benefit of discussions with him at the time, and he was very clear when it started that the National Careers Service would principally be for the over-24s. That process has changed. I am not necessarily criticising that, but the process has certainly migrated in an unplanned fashion. The National Careers Service website says that anyone aged 13 and over can have access to the data, and that adults aged 19 and over can have access to one-to-one support. The problem is that only 15% to 22% of the customers—again, I am taking statistics from a report that the Government have commissioned—were referred by Jobcentre Plus, while the remainder were self-referring. Does that not speak volumes about the lack of joined-up government between the Department for Education and the Department for Work and Pensions?
Ian Mearns
In some respects, my hon. Friend is actually being generous to the Government. I do not believe that the careers service as it existed has been decimated; I believe it has been laid waste by the Government’s policy since 2010. We really need to get back to youngsters having independent and impartial advice and guidance on their future career available to them. Without such independence and impartiality, we could unfortunately get back to having those with vested interests giving advice to young people. I remember the late Malcolm Wicks referring to this in the 1990s, when he said that much of the advice given to young people about their future careers was akin to pensions mis-selling because the service was packed with vested interests.
Gordon Marsden
My hon. Friend makes a very important and valuable point, as he did earlier to the Minister, and we certainly need to think very hard about those things.
As I have said, the National Careers Service process has migrated substantially, which may not in itself be a bad thing. I genuinely want to know from the Minister what connectivity there is between the National Careers Service and the Careers & Enterprise Company if the coverage starts as early as age 13. I would really like to know what the connectivity is in that process.
The very disappointing fact is that, as the impact report says, researchers were
“unable to identify a positive impact of the National Careers Service on employment or benefit dependency outcomes”.
Arguably, those outcomes are its main purpose. This is another example of why it is essential for the Government to act on the careers strategy, and of why their failure so far to do so makes Lords amendments 2 and 6 so important. With the expansion of apprenticeships and the addition of technical education to the institute, it will be even more important for students and apprentices to have all the information that they need to make informed decisions.
Young people who get the best careers advice in college or schools are more likely to be able to seek out the better apprenticeships. That is why I warmly welcome Lords amendment 2, Lord Baker’s amendment, which had our support and cross-party support. It would ensure that schools have to provide access to advice about apprenticeships. Why does that matter? It matters because, as my hon. Friend has said, knowledge in general is power, and unbiased knowledge is very important indeed. Incidentally, that is also why my hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) introduced a ten-minute rule Bill to require schools to give access to their premises to representatives of post-16 education institutions to enable them to provide pupils with advice and guidance.
All of that is why Lords amendment 6 is also important. I am encouraged by the fact that the new chief inspector, Amanda Spielman, to whom I have spoken recently, is sympathetic to Ofsted making a much stronger case for ensuring that apprenticeships rate more highly in the information provided in schools. Incidentally, the Lords have already pointed out that that will require Ofsted to have more resources; my noble Friend Lord Watson pointed that out on Report on 27 March. If we do not get integration between the Careers & Enterprise Company and the National Careers Service, what we ask Ofsted to do will not work. Just what is the Minister’s response to these arguments? Why are the National Careers Service and the Careers & Enterprise Company apparently working on different lines? If he does not want to accept Lords amendment 6, what guarantees can he give to this House or to noble Lords that the necessary work will be done?
John Pugh (Southport) (LD)
I want to speak very briefly on the Government motion to disagree with Lords amendment 6 and Government amendment (a) in lieu, as much as anything else to probe what amendment (a) will achieve. As a preface to that, let me give an impression of what the noble Lord Storey sought to achieve with Lords amendment 6. We have all acknowledged during the course of the debate so far that careers advice is incredibly variable and has been for some considerable time. Lord Storey tried to set in place a mechanism for monitoring careers advice so that we know precisely how good or how bad, and how valuable or useless, it actually is.
In Committee stage in the Lords, Lord Nash described careers advice as always having been “pretty poor”. There was, of course, an Ofsted report in 2013 that established that three quarters of schools were not providing effective advice or, as the hon. Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) pointed out, impartial advice. It said that the guidance given to schools was not sufficiently explicit, employers were not engaging in many cases and the National Careers Service was not effectively promoted. A key conclusion of the Ofsted report was that schools’ advice should be assessed when taking into account general school leadership, or sector leadership in the case of further education—Lords amendment 6 also applies to the FE sector.
I think that the Minister accepts all that, and I know that he has produced a variation on Lords amendment 6. I would like him to satisfy me and the House that it complies with what the Lords intended in their amendment.
Robert Halfon
I thank the hon. Member for Southport (John Pugh) and the shadow Minister for their speeches. I understand that the hon. Member for Southport is stepping down. He is an experienced Member of the House, and I send him every good wish for the future.
To answer the hon. Gentleman we are essentially accepting de facto Lords amendment 6, which was suggested by Lord Storey. We have just made it tighter for legal reasons and, in fact, stronger. Ofsted will now be required to comment on college careers offers in its reports. However, we accept the principle of Lords amendment 6.
I set out earlier the Government’s position that the majority of the Lords amendments serve to strengthen the measures in the Bill and ensure their success in practice. I urge hon. Members to accept all the amendments made in the Lords, with the exception of Lords amendment 1. As I explained earlier, that amendment is subject to financial privilege and I ask Members to reject it on that basis, while noting the work I have set out, which demonstrates our commitment to finding the most effective ways to address barriers and support the disadvantaged into apprenticeships.
The shadow Minister said, in essence, that we should put our money where our mouth is. It is worth remembering that we have 900,000 apprentices at the moment, which is the highest on record, and that 25% of apprentices come from the poorest fifth of areas. The Careers & Enterprise Company has more than 1,300 enterprise advisers going into schools, and they are set to target something like 250,000 students in 75% of the career coldspots in the country. The National Careers Service is there to give careers advice and CV advice, and to provide personal contact either face to face, over the telephone or on the internet. The bodies have different roles.
I ask Members to accept our amendment in lieu of Lords amendment 6, on which many noble Lords spoke. I spoke earlier of the positive activity at Derby College. It is by no means the only college taking active steps to provide high-quality careers advice to students. I have seen incredible work in my own college in Harlow and in Gateshead in the north-east of England. We want to ensure that all young people can access such support, and I ask Members to support that ambition by accepting the amendment in lieu.
Ian Mearns
I know that the Minister is determined and full of good intentions, but good intentions do not provide sound careers advice and guidance to young people who are in the system now. We need to see more urgency from the Government in backing up his decent intentions, to make sure that young people get the impartial advice and guidance they so deeply need as soon as possible.
Robert Halfon
Let me give the hon. Gentleman our intention. Given the financial climate, £90 million is no small sum of money to spend on careers, predominantly with the Careers & Enterprise Company, which has enterprise advisers going into schools. There is £20 million for mentoring services in schools. As I mentioned, enterprise advisers are going up and down the country to coldspots. The National Careers Service alone is getting more than £75 million this year to advise on careers. That is real financial backing for two very important services.
Ian Mearns
I am listening to the Minister. I was a member of the National Careers Service national association board prior to the invention of Connexions. I seem to remember that the national budget for careers at that time was something like £130 million. That was more than 15 years ago. In the current climate, the figures the Minister is talking about are inadequate.
Robert Halfon
Given the financial climate, the £90 million to be spent predominantly with the Careers & Enterprise Company and the £77 million that is going to the National Careers Service this year alone are sizeable sums of money. As I have said, we are developing a careers strategy. Obviously the election is occurring, but I hope very much that we will see careers with much more of a skills focus, and do much more work in schools on mentoring and on work experience.
I have said that the Bill is a Ronseal Bill. It is very much part of our reforms to create an apprenticeships and skills nation and to give millions of young people the ladder of opportunity to get the jobs, security and prosperity that they need. It is a Bill to ensure that technical education is held in the regard it deserves. In the unlikely event of a college insolvency, students will be protected. The measures in the Bill make vital changes to support young people to build the essential skills that our nation needs, and they provide the right support to enable young people to climb that ladder. Many Members on both sides of the House and in the other place have spoken in support of that ambition, and I take this opportunity to thank them for their ongoing commitment to the Bill and for supporting all our young people to reach their potential.
Question put, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 1.
Technical and Further Education Bill
Tuesday 25th April 2017
(7 years, 7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Technical and Further Education Act 2017 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 125-I Marshalled list for consideration of Commons reason and amendment (PDF, 64KB) - (24 Apr 2017)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Lord Nash) (Con)
My Lords, this Bill is integral to the Government’s ambitious reforms for creating a world-class technical education system. These reforms will help to ensure that technical education in our country provides everyone with the skills and opportunities they need to succeed and gain skilled employment on a long-term basis, and at the same time they will serve the needs of our economy and reduce our skills gap. The Bill’s further education insolvency regime will also protect students at FE colleges in the event that their college faces financial difficulty.
I am very grateful for the interest and input from noble Lords across the House on the Bill, and in particular how they have helped strengthen the Bill and its related policy areas. It is quite clear that the Bill has strong cross-party support. I am glad that the Bill returns to this House for further debate on two amendments from the other place. I will deal with these amendments in turn. Given the volume of business we need to get through today, I will try to keep this brief, and I hope other noble Lords will join me in that endeavour.
Noble Lords will know that Lords Amendment 1 was rejected in the other place on the basis of financial privilege, and I request that this House respects the decision reached there. However, I would like to acknowledge the sentiment behind the amendment and to address some considerations. First, I understand that a drop in household benefits income and a shift of income from parents to a young person can be difficult to manage. However, we should give parents credit for supporting their children to enter apprenticeships and develop their own financial independence and long-term careers. The numbers testify to this: last year more than 200,000 young people under 19 were in apprenticeships.
Secondly, during the Bill’s passage, the Opposition compared the financial support available to full-time students and that available to apprentices, while giving very little attention to the matter of remuneration. Full-time students are forgoing employment and income opportunities to gain qualifications, often while paying to invest in their future. Apprenticeships are paid jobs, with high-quality free training. The 2016 apprenticeship pay survey showed that the average wage for all level 2 and 3 apprentices was £6.70 an hour. Apprentices are also increasing their future employment prospects and earnings: on average, level 2 and level 3 apprenticeships increase earnings in employment by 11% and 16% respectively.
Finally, we must target resources. The cost of the amendment is estimated at over £200 million per year by 2020. The benefits system quite rightly targets financial support towards greatest need, including for example dependants in low-income families. Benefits awards must take other sources of income into account. We also target funds carefully to support apprenticeships among key groups. We pay additional amounts to training providers in the most deprived areas. We also steer funding towards providers and employers for the youngest apprentices and for care leavers, as well as for those with learning difficulties and disabilities. As the new funding system beds in, we will continue to review how funding is targeted, including to support access to apprenticeship jobs for those from disadvantaged backgrounds.
Amendment 6A was tabled in the other place in lieu of an amendment tabled on Report by the noble Lords, Lord Storey and Lord Watson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Garden. The amendment proposes a new clause to the Bill which will require Ofsted to consider the quality of careers provision when conducting standard inspections of further education colleges. I am grateful to noble Lords and the noble Baroness for raising the issue of careers guidance in colleges and giving the Government the opportunity to consider this important matter further.
As the noble Lord, Lord Storey, explained so eloquently on Report, one of the most important things we need to do for young people is provide guidance and knowledge about careers. He rightly pointed out that this is particularly true for young people from disadvantaged backgrounds, who may not have access to networks of support to inform them about options and perhaps provide opportunities for them to do work experience. That is why it is vital that FE colleges—which take many students from areas of educational disadvantage—should make high-quality careers advice available to everyone.
Of course, there are a number of colleges already leading the way in this. Gateshead College embeds careers in all aspects of a student’s learning. JobLab provides dedicated support to help their students develop practical employment skills, and Career Coach provides labour-market data and maps out education, training and career options. I also recognise Ofsted’s commitment to evaluating the quality of careers advice and guidance in further education. Matters relating to careers provision feature in all four graded judgments that Ofsted makes when judging the overall effectiveness of a college. However, the Government are persuaded of the need to go further to ensure that young people can benefit from the best possible preparation for the workplace and acquire the skills and attributes that employers need. The amendment will send a clear signal that a high-calibre careers programme must be embedded in every college.
I hope I have reassured noble Lords that we agree wholeheartedly with the principle of the original Lords amendment. The drafting changes serve only to ensure that the amendment achieves its intended effect and that the language conforms to current legislation. The amendment now includes an explicit requirement for Ofsted to comment on the quality of the college’s careers provision in the inspection report.
I urge noble Lords to accept this amendment in lieu. It is our chance to ensure that all FE students can access the support they need to help them to achieve their full potential. As discussed earlier, I also ask noble Lords to respect the other place’s decision to reject Amendment 1 on the grounds of financial privilege. I beg to move.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)
My Lords, I acknowledge that the Bill is a better one than when it began its progress through both Houses. We shall not seek to impede its journey to the statute book.
The addition of the amendment promoted by the noble Lord, Lord Baker, and others, represents an important step forward in ensuring that school pupils have explained to them the full range of options, not just those whose choice of an academic route might benefit the school’s coffers. It should not have been necessary for an amendment to be passed to secure that, because strong careers guidance is critical to promoting apprenticeships in schools. If the Government’s target for apprenticeship starts is to be achieved and sustained, as we all hope, then it is crucial that young people are alerted early enough in their school life to the importance and attraction of technical routes.
However, it is disappointing that the Government have not been willing to accept Amendment 1 passed by your Lordships on Report. The decision to exclude apprenticeships from the category of approved education or training will serve as a deterrent to some young people, particularly those from disadvantaged backgrounds. The Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills said last week:
“The crucial point is that the vast majority of level 2 and 3 apprentices are paid more than £6.30 an hour, and 90% of them go on to jobs or additional education afterwards”.—[Official Report, Commons, 19/4/17; col. 714.]
But that is not the crucial point; in fact, he has missed the point. At least 90% of university graduates go on to jobs or additional education, so there is no difference in that respect. And whether apprentices earn £3.50 an hour—the legal minimum, which, as I said on Report, not all of them get—or £6.50 an hour, their parents are still disqualified from receiving child benefit. That is the nub of the issue. Clearly, though, we have not been successful in convincing Ministers of that point.
It was interesting to read last week of the Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills, in defence of the Government’s position, coming up with a figure of some £200 million a year by 2020-21. So apprentices—the young people we need to train in order to fill the skills gaps that we know exist—are to be treated unfavourably compared to their peers who choose full-time study because of the cost. The Government can miraculously find £500 million to create new grammar schools yet cannot find £200 million to ensure that the number of apprentices from the poorest families rises from its current very low level of just 10%. If there is logic in that policy stance, it escapes me. The noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, said in Committee that she would discuss this issue with ministerial colleagues in the DWP. By Report there had been no such meetings, and we learned from the debate in the other place last week that those meetings have still not taken place. So where did the £200 million figure appear from, if not the DWP?
In passing, I say to the Minister that I submitted a Written Question asking for the Government’s workings that produced the £200 million figure. As I understand that those Questions disappear on Dissolution, I ask him to write to me with the answer so that we can gain an understanding of the foundation on which the Government have erected the barrier to treating apprentices as “approved learners”.
On Amendment 6, initially I was dismayed that the Government were unwilling to accept the will of your Lordships’ House on careers advice in further education colleges, although that was perhaps not too surprising as the Minister told us on Report that it was not necessary. However, the Government’s amendment in lieu actually appears to be stronger than the original amendment. First, it goes further than further education colleges and refers to “FE institutions”, which of course covers all training providers on the register.
Secondly, the original amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Storey, which your Lordships’ House voted for at Report, called on Ofsted to “take into account” the careers advice made available to students by colleges. Government Amendment 6A states that Ofsted must,
“comment on the careers guidance provided to relevant students at the institution”.
For that reason, I welcome Amendment 6A, as Ofsted will be obliged to be proactive in reporting what it discovers in FE colleges that it inspects. That is certainly to be welcomed, although it comes with the caveat that it will apply only to those colleges that Ofsted actually inspects. How many will be? Realistically, how many can it be?
At Report, I asked the Minister to give an assurance that Ofsted would be adequately resourced; I fear that he did not reply. Mr Marsden asked the same question of the Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills, and he did not reply, so perhaps the Minister can now tell noble Lords how many additional staff Ofsted will have to enable it to inspect as many training providers as possible out of the 2,000 likely to emerge. It cannot do that with its existing staff, and we have a right to know what additional resources Ofsted will receive to enable it to cope with large new demands. I look forward to his response on that. I suggest that he must have one because it is surely inconceivable that he and/or his officials have not met Amanda Spielman or her deputy, Paul Joyce, to discuss the resources that they will require as a direct result of the Bill.
We are now at the end of a process that has produced the Bill, which will strengthen the sector but could have achieved much more. I thank all noble Lords who have participated in our debates, as well as Ministers, who have moved some way, if not as far as we would like, during our deliberations.
Lord Storey (LD)
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 6A. The Minister has put it better than I could, so I shall be very brief. I have always thought that the key to making the Bill successful was twofold. First, there was breaking the logjam of mainstream schools not allowing for or understanding the important role of technical education, whether it be FE colleges or university technical colleges. The acceptance of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Baker, was a crucial step forward. Secondly, there was careers. You can have all the courses in the world, but unless young people get a successful career at the end of it and an understanding of what is available to them, it is all for naught. I am delighted with the amendment. It sends a clear signal not only to the further education sector but to schools themselves. The explicit wording in the amendment means that there is no hiding place.
This is an important Bill, and I congratulate the Minister and his colleagues on carrying it through the Chamber in such a sympathetic way. I also thank the civil servants, who have been exemplary in the support that they have given us all. We could not wish for anything better. Finally, I thank my noble friend Lady Garden—she cannot be here—who led for my party on the Bill, and other colleagues who have supported us.
Lord Baker of Dorking (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie, for deciding not to press his amendments on this case. I know how strongly he feels about it, but it will be possible to revisit that after the whole principles of apprenticeships have been set up. I think that it is generally agreed by all sides of the House that this is an important Bill and a beneficial Bill. It is a major step forward in improving the technical education of our country. It has been handled very well by the Minister and his department, and we should speed it to the statute book.
Lord Nash
My Lords, I have discussed the Government’s response to the two amendments that have returned to this House from the other place and asked noble Lords to agree the Motions from the other place on those two amendments. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Watson, about where the £200 million estimate came from, I can say that it is estimated by the DfE, HMRC and HM Treasury, using apprenticeship participation data and HMRC child benefit data—HMRC, not the DWP, pays child benefit—but I will still write to him on the matter he mentioned.
As for Ofsted, I have personally discussed this with it. It is satisfied that it is adequately resourced at the moment, but we will keep this under review. As I said, the Bill has strong cross-party support. Several noble Lords from across the House have mentioned that previous Governments have attempted unsuccessfully to raise the status of technical education—I remember a particularly powerful speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, on this—but I am confident that under the leadership of Minister Halfon, who I am delighted to see is in the House today, we will seize this opportunity to raise the status of technical education in this country.
I thank again all noble Lords for their participation on this Bill. I am absolutely sure that the legislation is in much better shape thanks to their scrutiny, as always. I commend the Bill to the House.
“Careers advice in further education institutions: Ofsted inspection
(1) Section 125 of the Education and Inspections Act 2006 (inspection of further education institutions) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (4) (matters to be dealt with in inspection report), after paragraph (a) (but before the “and” at the end) insert—
“(aa) must, in a case where it relates to an institution within the further education sector, comment on the careers guidance provided to relevant students at the institution,”.
(3) After subsection (7) insert—
“(8) In this section—
“careers guidance” includes guidance about undertaking any training, education, employment or occupation;
“relevant student” means a student—
(a) who is aged under 19, or
(b) who is aged 19 or over and is someone for whom an EHC plan is maintained.””
Royal Assent
Thursday 27th April 2017
(7 years, 6 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Consideration of Bill Amendments as at 3 February 2017 - (3 Feb 2017)