Technical and Further Education Bill (Eighth sitting)

Kelvin Hopkins Excerpts

Committee Debate: 8th sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 1st December 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Gordon Marsden]

I beg to move amendment 5, in clause 22, page 10, line 7, at end insert—

“(2A) The education administrator may, in performing his or her functions for the purpose of achieving the objective of the education administration, request information, advice or guidance from practitioners with an understanding of education regarding the management of a further education body.”.

This amendment would allow an education administrator who, under the eligibility outlined in clause 15, might not necessarily be an education specialist to supplement his or her knowledge.

The amendment pursues an issue that we have already discussed, but in the context of the experience or knowledge of higher education that the education administrator will need. The Minister and I had a useful exchange about the capacity of the education administrator to reach out, either within an organisation or peripherally to it. The amendment would allow an education administrator who meets the eligibility guidelines outlined in clause 15, but might not necessarily be an education specialist, to supplement his or her knowledge.

Our friends in the National Union of Students were particularly anxious for the amendment to be tabled, and we have taken their points on board. As the Minister will know, the NUS has welcomed the provisions that relate to insolvency, but it, too, is nervous—well, “nervous” is perhaps the wrong word, but it is certainly concerned. It believes that the process should be underlined as strongly as possible and that, in the twists and turns of what will inevitably be a fraught and taut process for all concerned, the administrator should be able to take further advice, even if he or she has some past experience. The amendment would make it clear that the educational administrator may seek that advice.

The Bill does not require the person appointed to deal with the college’s insolvency to know anything about colleges or the FE sector; under clause 15, they need only be an insolvency practitioner. We do not dissent from that, because we have already had a conversation about it and we are entirely reassured by the points that the Minister has made. However, the education administrator will have substantial powers over the future of an education body and its students, and indeed over the education body’s management, as clause 22(1) sets out.

Bearing in mind that the period of time for which they might have to manage the FE body’s affairs will be somewhat elastic, it would seem sensible to ensure that the administrator can get advice from people who actually know how to run an FE body. Better still, obviously, would be to have an administrator who was either very close to or within the FE sector. That was the intention behind amendment 34. After all, the Bill is designed to recognise that context, which is why it includes the education objective and entitles learners to continue their studies. Amendment 5 would just ensure that the Bill makes that provision and allows the education administrator access to whatever information and advice they may need to fulfil their duties. I am sure that the Minister wishes that to be the case. We suggest that it is a fairly obvious point—the Association of Colleges and the NUS think so—but it is not obvious in the Bill currently.

Without straying beyond the narrow lines of the amendment, I merely say to the Minister that there are many options for practitioners who could be called upon with an understanding of further education management. That could include chairmen or governors of FE bodies, former FE commissioners, or perhaps even retired people from those areas or from awarding bodies. Will the Minister give us some further details about whom he imagines an education administrator might wish to consult? Whatever avenue he wants to go down to assure us in that respect, it is important that the administrator has the advice of experts to make the correct call.

[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

I will be very brief. I support my hon. Friend. One of the problems for the FE sector and, even more, for sixth-form colleges is that the whole sector has been bedevilled by decisions being made by people who are unfamiliar with those sectors. Many people involved in politics have come through a school or university environment; they have not been through further education. Many areas do not have sixth-form colleges, so people are not quite sure what they are. It is important that we have people with knowledge of the sector—educationally and organisationally —to make judgments on these matters. I just wanted to support my hon. Friend with those few words.

[Robert Halfon]

I appreciate the amendment. I raised these issues in the previous sitting. I go back to the quotation from Stephen Harris, the insolvency expert, who said that

“it is worth standing back and recognising that insolvency practitioners are not train drivers, or people who spend their life in the railway or the London Underground”––[Official Report, Technical and Further Education Bill Public Bill Committee, 22 November 2016; c. 46, Q60.]

Those people are expert insolvency practitioners, but many have some kind of educational link or work for a company that has a good link with and expertise in education.

It would be inconceivable that any education administrator would not consult—I strongly expect them to—key stakeholders, particularly the FE commissioner, student bodies, governors, parents and any relevant sponsor or other stakeholder involved with an insolvent college. That is expected as a matter of course, but I will reflect on what the hon. Member for Blackpool South said. On those grounds, I hope that he is happy to withdraw the amendment.

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[Gordon Marsden]

I beg to move amendment 6, in clause 22, page 10, line 10, leave out “have special educational needs” and insert—

“(a) have special educational needs;

(b) are care leavers;

(c) are parents;

(d) are carers, carers of children, or young carers, as defined by the Care Act 2014; and,

(e) have other particular needs that may be determined by the appropriate national authority.”

This amendment would make provisions for the particular needs of additional groups of existing students to be considered by an education administrator in pursuing the objective of an education administration.

Having touched on the issues of special needs, we want to probe a little further and more broadly beyond what has been said. The Minister has already given strong assurances on the general issue of special educational needs, but he will be aware of particular circumstances affecting some categories of people who take the big step, given their experiences, of engaging with further education. I am sure that everyone would agree that we do not want those groups of people, in particular, to be disadvantaged, and we certainly do not want them to suffer more disadvantage than students ordinarily would in the circumstances.

I accept that lists can be invidious, but we feel that care leavers, parents, and

“carers, carers of children, or young carers, as defined by the Care Act 2014”

are three groups that may be particularly vulnerable to disruption in their studies, as we have discussed. The amendment is designed to signal to the administrator the importance of taking those groups into account.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

Earlier my hon. Friend made a point about distance of travel. Groups such as parents and those with caring responsibilities will definitely be affected by travel over longer distances. I am sure that he has that in mind.

[Gordon Marsden]

My hon. Friend is right. He has read not only my mind, but my postbag. Only half an hour before coming here I received an email from Unison, which raised some of those issues with respect to its members who fit into one or two of the categories in question. It made precisely that point about distance, which I was anxious to make in my exchange with the Minister about the education maintenance allowance. It was not simply about cost; it was also about time.

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[Gordon Marsden]

I beg to move amendment 7, in clause 23, page 10, line 31, at end insert—

“(2) The education administrator may not transfer assets of any further education body to a private company where he or she considers that more than half of the funding of the acquisition of the asset came from public funds.”.

This amendment would ensure further education bodies with a track record of accruing assets publicly, could not be transferred to a private company.

We come to an amendment that is longer than the clause it seeks to amend. That might suggest that the amendment is otiose, but I do not think it is; I think the clause ought to have been expanded a little more— but then I would say that. I want to focus some attention, at a certain length, on this issue. On our side of the Committee, that raises some really big issues about what would happen to the transfer of assets from a further education body to a private company.

Information produced by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills on the dissolution of an FE corporation specified that assets should be transferred only to charitable bodies:

“The Secretary of State and the CESF are concerned with the appropriate use of those capital assets that have been acquired/developed/redeveloped with public funding and the conditions for their transfer and usage…FE corporations are advised to undertake early discussions with the Skills Funding Agency to identify the relevant assets and any potential repayment of some, or all of the associated grant or proceeds of sale…The regulations include a requirement that the FE Corporation publish the proposed arrangements for the transfer of the property, rights and liabilities of the FE Corporation…The Dissolution of Further Education Corporations and Sixth Form Colleges Corporations (Prescribed Bodies) Regulations 2012”—

that would have been an interesting secondary legislation Committee to sit on—

“lists the bodies to which an FE Corporation can transfer its property rights and liabilities upon its dissolution. It is expected that all transfers should be made to charitable bodies, and for the purpose of education.”

It is on that point that I want to focus my remarks on the amendment. The document continues:

“Where the bodies are not charities then it must be transferred in accordance with the charitable purposes of the trust.”

It then links to a whole list of prescribed bodies to which assets could be transferred, including sixth-form colleges and governing bodies.

The point I start from is that to say it is “expected” that all transfers should be made to charitable bodies is not the same as saying it is “required”.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. Is the stronger case not that such properties should be transferred back to local authorities? That is where the property came from in the first place.

[Gordon Marsden]

My hon. Friend makes an interesting point, and possibly opens up a new area for policy discussion in certain political parties. The reality of the situation is that in practical terms most local authorities would struggle to take on those responsibilities at the moment, but he is absolutely right to make the point—I will expand on it—on the genesis of the assets.

Given the genesis of those assets and their development over the years, we need to look with extraordinary care at any circumstances in which they might go into the private sector. Incidentally, that does not necessarily mean that we are saying that the bona fides of the private sector potential acquirers are bad. We simply recognise the fact that it would be the transfer of something that is largely of public value into the private sector without taking any account of the genesis and development.

I want to explain why I think this issue is so important. When colleges were incorporated in 1992, it took them formally outside the aegis of local authorities, as my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North said, but we have to take into account that that asset base of building in many cases was built up with local authority support and funding over a 20 or 30-year period.

The Minister has visited my local college, Blackpool and The Fylde College. I think he went to the Bispham campus, which is right at the other end of town and not in my constituency. When he arrived, the Bispham campus no doubt looked nice and shiny and new, but it did incorporate—I am not sure how much it still incorporates—buildings and elements that go right back to the 1950s and 1960s. Indeed, when the Building Colleges for the Future process was taking place in the 2000s, that was one of the arguments for demolishing that building and relocating it in the centre of town. It did not happen for a variety of reasons. At the time I was rather annoyed that it did not happen, but nevertheless I am just illustrating the point that many of the buildings that we are talking about have accreted their estate either on an active financial basis or by the ceding of lands by local authorities and other organisations.

Apart from that, over the years since then large sums of public money have often gone directly to support and build the estates of FE colleges. In the 2000s, the then Labour Government brought forward the major programme of Building Colleges for the Future. Despite the fact that the programme was curtailed and certain places, including my own, missed out on the final stages, it was a commitment of literally hundreds of millions of pounds—other Members in the House got their completely new college and everything that went with it—and that is without taking account of the other areas of non-private sector funding. Sometimes that was through very complex relationships that might involve lottery-associated bids. Sometimes it was through the significant sums of money put in under the old regional development agencies. As I know well, having shadowed the regional growth funds in my previous portfolio, sometimes it was through regional growth fund developments, and sometimes there are offshoots of European structural funds. It is important to remember all of that.

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I want to leave the Minister in no doubt that the point we are making is based on what has happened in the past. There is an old saying, “once bitten, twice shy,” and in this instance we should be very shy of allowing private providers simply to come in and acquire a significant amount of publicly acquired assets in a case of insolvency without us looking carefully and extracting some price in return.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I strongly support my hon. Friend’s case. This is something that I am alarmed about. The reality was that, at incorporation, hundreds of thousands of acres and hundreds of buildings were transferred without charge from the local authority and incorporated in bodies that still seemed to be essentially in the public sector and were still largely funded by it—sixth-form colleges are entirely funded by the public sector. The idea that they could be sold off to speculators for profit, with development value acquired and millions of pounds made, is completely unacceptable. If anyone ought to have that asset, it is the public sector: either local authorities or a central Government Department. If they so choose to sell land off, at an appropriate value—if it has planning permission for housing or whatever—that development value should accrue to the public purse as well.

I have some experience and, as always, knowledge of what has been happening recently. Indeed, one college had a large area of land associated with it that had been a sports field that was still used for sports but was also a local leisure amenity. The principal wanted to sell that land off for housing development, making a vast amount of profit, and the implication was that he might have benefited personally. He was known to be assiduous in making sure his pocket was well filled. I think he managed to pay himself the highest salary of any college principal in the country even though his was not one of the largest colleges. Be that as it may, he eventually left in some disgrace and the college is now recovering, but selling off land for personal profit was a temptation that clearly affected him.

The principal was also building an academy chain by getting schools to become academies and then trying to get them into his ambit. It is interesting that two of the schools had land attached, and when, some way through the deal, it was decided that he could have the schools but not the associated land, he lost interest in getting them into his academy chain. It was clear that he was interested in the land associated with those schools, not in the education of the children, the success of schools or whatever. When big money is involved, college principals and others involved in college life can be tempted by the prospect of substantial personal financial gain. That has to be guarded against, and the way we do that is by ensuring that the assets stay in the public sector and that any benefit, financial or otherwise, accrues to the public sector.

The amendment therefore goes some way towards what I would like to see, and I will certainly support it should my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South press it to a vote, but I think we ought to go further and ensure that those kinds of practices cannot happen. We are talking about public assets, built up by the public sector over decades, if not scores of years or generations, and to see them simply handed over to private speculators without any benefit to the public sector is absolutely unacceptable.

We have to separate out capital assets from revenue costs. Revenue costs become too great if students disappear or the college is not being run efficiently and so on. We can deal with that. Capital assets, on the other hand, should be treated as precious and retained for the public sector and for public benefit; they should not be for the benefit of property speculators who could make millions, if not billions, out of such assets across the country, if allowed to do so.

With those few words, I express my strong support for the amendment. I hope that at some point the Government will recognise this issue so that we can go further and make the principles behind the amendment even stronger in legislation, whether in this Bill or in others.

[Robert Halfon]

I thank the Opposition for the amendment and the hon. Member for Luton North for his contribution. I will make a couple of general points before I go on to the specifics.

As has been observed, and I repeat, without the Bill there is no protection for students or from the seizure of college assets. The hon. Gentleman talked about hundreds of millions in government funding, but the general point is that college insolvency is likely to be a very rare event, so the portion of government assets that might transfer to a private sector company is likely to be small. The priority, as I say, has to be protecting students. Such a transfer is right if the education administrator is fulfilling his special objective and believes that it protects the students if he has the ability to do so.

On solvent dissolution, assets must go to a charity that has educational purposes. In insolvency in a special administrative regime, transfers go to bodies prescribed in regulations, all educational, which can include private education providers, or, as the hon. Gentlemen will be pleased to know, local authorities. As the FE Minister, I always have colleagues coming to me with suggestions about how the local authority might be involved with the FE college.

The Bill is not about private providers; it is about statutory bodies and companies that run designated FE institutions—that is, designated by the Secretary of State. For independent training providers offering provision to those with advanced learner loans, there must be a register of training organisations, they must have at least satisfactory financial health, they must pass capacity and capability requirements, and they have to have evidence of, and a track record in, education and skills delivery.

To go back to the question asked by the hon. Member for Batley and Spen, transfer schemes are a feature of other special administrative regimes. They allow for assets to be transferred to another body without the agreement of a third party which would otherwise be necessary—for example, leases without the consent of the landlord. That means that the scheme can be used to prevent a third party from blocking a transfer that is intended to facilitate the achievement of the special objective. The special administration regime’s delivery of the public policy objective—in this case the protection of students—should not be subject to third-party agreement. The education administrator will use a transfer scheme only if that is necessary to achieve the special objective.

It is important to note that the Secretary of State must approve any such scheme before it is used. Even if the education administrator does not use a transfer scheme, it is open to the Secretary of State to challenge the administrator if he or she feels that the administrator is not performing his or her duty to protect students.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

A thought occurs to me. If charitable organisations were brought into play, would it not be possible for assets to remain publicly owned but be allocated to such organisations on a rental basis rather than an ownership basis?

[Robert Halfon]

We are looking at cases of insolvency. We have the protection of students at heart, but we also want to be fair to creditors. I am passionate about the Bill because I believe it assures the protection of students, but I acknowledge that we have to be fair to creditors as well, and I do not think that would be the case if we did what the hon. Gentleman suggests, although in an ideal world that would of course be a lovely thing to be able to do.

The FE body itself cannot be sold. It is a statutory body. If it is insolvent and must therefore close, the protection of students must come first; the sale of the asset would be to protect students first and creditors second.

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[Gordon Marsden]

The Minister has been characteristically courteous. If I were able to take his reassurance as the end of the matter, I would, but unfortunately it is not the end of the matter. I will make a few brief points.

The Minister says that the proportion of public assets that might be disposed of to the private sector in the event of a college insolvency as a total is very small, percentage-wise. We could trade figures on what that percentage might be, but none of us knows. The fact of the matter is that it is about the area where that happens and the impact there. A college that has tens of millions of pounds’ worth of assets built up in a particular area and is crucial to the local community may be basically forwarded on to a private provider.

I accept what the Minister said; we are not saying that all private providers are bad or are leeches, but that is not the issue at stake. The issue at stake is whether private providers should be allowed automatically to take on valuable assets that have been accrued via the public sector in the event of an insolvency. The Minister said himself that it is not about private providers, but he also said that transfers could include private education providers.

In terms of real-life events, private providers are well equipped normally with lawyers and accountants. Who will monitor the detail of this? Will it be a slightly harassed education administrator? Will it be officials in the Minister’s Department? I doubt it.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

As a member of a local authority many years ago, I saw the representatives of a town shopping centre—an asset that was owned by the council but rented on a long-term basis—who were skilled financial advisers, run rings around the local authority treasurers, who just could not cope with the power ranged against them. We have to be very careful, because when big money is involved, companies will get the best brains to ensure they win.

[Gordon Marsden]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. If it were not for the track record of problems in the FE sector over the past three to four years that I have described, we might be more sanguine, but this is a really important principle that should be established on the face of the Bill. I am afraid that on this occasion, I will not withdraw the amendment and will press it to a vote.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

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[Gordon Marsden]

I entirely understand that. I was not suggesting that people are slothing on the job; I was merely making the reasonable point that the Bill necessarily involves a lot of administrative time—I put it no stronger than that—and that raises in my mind some ongoing concerns about the capacity, either of the Department or of some of its institutions, to take some of these things forward. I will leave it at that.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I just want to say that I am deeply disappointed that we cannot discuss the regulations in detail. Perhaps I am alone in that.

[Gordon Marsden]

All I can say is that my hon. Friend is a shining example to us all. He shames us deeply.

Let me make my own brief and pathetic response to clause 30, in the context of the Stakhanovite task that my hon. Friend has just suggested we undertake. I have a practical question for the Minister. On clause 31, the policy note talks about the way in which the power will be used to make decisions. For simplicity, I say to the Minister that although I am making this point specifically about clause 30—it affects chapter 4, which is very important because it is the special administration chapter —my question is generic and may be relevant to other clauses as well. It is very straightforward. When these revised instruments and regulation-making powers are brought forward, will there be consultation in any shape or form with the various stakeholders—FE bodies, the Association of Colleges, the Collab Group and others?

That is not for the sake of consultation itself. There have been occasions in the past, although I am not suggesting in this particular Department or area, when the lack of such consultation on detailed regulations between representative bodies—it normally has to be done at that level—and officials from the Department has produced anomalies that subsequently have to be rectified. It would be interesting to hear if the Minister can offer any reassurance on that.

[Gordon Marsden]

I beg to move amendment 8, in clause 37, page 18, line 14, at end insert—

‘(1A) The Secretary of State must ensure the list of disqualified officers is made publicly available.”

This amendment would ensure that a list of disqualified officers was publicly available.

The amendment is fairly straightforward, so I will not detain the Committee long. Again, we hope that these situations will be very rare, and we certainly hope it will be very rare that people are disqualified as a result of them. However, if disqualified people are involved, the principle of transparency is extremely important. This is a probing amendment, to find out how this might be effective.

Perhaps it is worth mentioning what the explanatory notes say about clause 37:

“This clause gives the Secretary of State the power, in relation to further education corporations and sixth form college corporations, to make regulations that have the same or similar effect to the Company Directors Disqualification Act 1986. This will mean that, like company directors, members (i.e. governors) of those corporations can be disqualified from acting as such in the future and the power allows the Secretary of State to make provision so that when a person is disqualified as a director of a company they can also be prohibited from acting as a member of a further education corporation or sixth form college corporation.”

I repeat that we all hope and assume that these occurrences will be irregular. However, would it not be logical for the list of disqualified officers to be made publicly available, to ensure transparency and to allow colleges to easily assess applicants to their own corporations in the future?

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I support the amendment. In my experience of life, it is often the rogues who are most plausible and we have to have lists of people to make sure that people do not get through the net, move to a different part of the country and take up a job, before we find out that they have twice been a rogue, not just once.

[Robert Halfon]

The disqualified officers to whom the amendment refers are those members of an FE body that is a statutory corporation who have been disqualified by the court on the grounds that they have been found liable by the court of wrongful or fraudulent trading or other similar offences under the Insolvency Act 1986 as applied by the Bill. Wrongful and fraudulent trading are provisions of insolvency law that will be applied to governors and others involved in running FE bodies that are statutory corporations in the same way as they apply to directors of, and those who run, companies. That is the purpose of the amendment.

It is right that a list is kept of those individuals who have been disqualified and that such a list is available to the public, so that it is evident which individuals should not be appointed as governors of colleges in the future. However, there is no need to provide for that specifically in the Bill. There is provision in the Company Directors Disqualification Act 1986 for a register of disqualification orders to be kept by the Secretary of State and for that register to be open to inspection—as we continue to refer to that Act, I propose that we use its acronym, the CDDA.

Clause 37 will allow us to replicate provisions of the CDDA; therefore it already allows us to achieve what hon. Members seek with the amendment. I have made it clear that I intend to consult on secondary legislation made under the Bill. That includes regulations made under clause 37, so it will be transparent that we will include a provision in regulations that is the same as, or similar to, the provision that exists in the CDDA, modifying it as necessary to make it work effectively for disqualified members of college corporations. On those grounds, I hope that the hon. Member for Blackpool South will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

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[Gordon Marsden]

I thank the Minister for that explanation, in particular on subsection (2), which I had circled and was going to ask him about. He has now answered the question, so we have no problems with the clause. Indeed, it is very important, at a time when the Government continue to embark on devolution initiatives in this area, that a national database should be maintained.

The only observation that I would make—I think this view would be shared by a number of my colleagues—is that the process that is going ahead is somewhat piecemeal and somewhat curious in its restrictions. Some of us might like to see rather more rapid action, and rather broader and more ambitious ways of ensuring that, in the future, not simply adult skills but a much broader range of issues are devolved. However, that is outside the scope of the Government’s amendment and the clause, which we are very happy to support.

Amendment 18 agreed to.

Amendment made: 19, in clause 38, page 19, line 9, leave out “(4)” and insert “(3)”.—(Robert Halfon.)

This amendment is consequential on amendment 18.

Clause 38, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 39 to 45 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

New Clause 1

Further education bodies: senior management

“A further education body shall be required to include in its senior management team a person or persons with professional financial qualifications having specific responsibility for oversight of financial management in the body.”—(Kelvin Hopkins.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 2—Further education bodies: governing bodies—

“A further education body shall seek to ensure that its governing body includes a minimum of two members with professional financial qualifications.”

[Kelvin Hopkins]

It is a pleasure to rise to speak to these new clauses, which I drafted myself and are borne of my own experience in college governance and teaching. That is particularly the case for new clause 1, which is about having internal experts with professional qualifications who would suffer severe reputational damage if they did not make sure that the college accounts and financial matters were all in order.

When I was chair of governors of what was then Luton College of Higher Education—it became the University of Luton and then the University of Bedfordshire —the principal decided that the accounts were not really up to scratch, and so spent a summer going through every detail of the college’s finances. He found many thousands of pounds unaccounted for, which he was then able to use to the benefit of the college. He happened to be a graduate in mathematics, which meant that he was at least numerate and could deal with accountancy, but accountancy is a specific skill.

As a student, I was taught economics by a former Treasury official whose next-door neighbour was an elderly lady who wanted him to deal with her accounts. He had to explain that an economist is not an accountant; it is a very precise skill and not something that one can just pick up at will. My closest university friend was a professor of accountancy. I know only too well that accountancy is a professional skill that needs great minds. I also understand that some of the people with the highest IQs in our country are accountants. Clearly accountants are important people, and it is important to have them involved.

At Luton Sixth-Form College, one of the deputy principals is a qualified chartered accountant. She is a superb member of staff who makes absolutely sure that all the forecasts and all the financial details are under control. We have been guided by her for many years now. It makes us feel at ease. We know that the finances are well under control, well understood and thoroughly explained to us on all occasions. Many years ago, before she was employed, I was on the finance and general purposes committee, and I remember the problems I had just getting to grips with it, and I am a numerate person with a degree that includes economics and maths. It was difficult stuff, but we had some good accountants on the governing body.

This is an important issue. If one wants to avoid insolvency, the best thing to do is ensure that one has someone with the skills to ensure one does not get into that situation in the first place, and that alarm bells are rung. As governors and politicians and Government Members, we are all well aware of what the problems are. If a principal is wilful and wants to do things beyond what they should be doing, and they have a weak financial adviser without professional qualifications, they will get away with it. There is also the question of competence; a principal may not be competent at dealing with accountancy.

Accountancy is extremely important. It sounds very boring, but I am glad that accountants are there. I would not want to have the responsibility of making decisions on financial matters without the advice of serious professionals. I have no doubt that some members of the Committee are qualified in accountancy. I am not asking Members to put their hands up, but they are about.

I have been a governor of Luton Sixth-Form College for 23 years continuously. I was also a governor there for two years in a previous period. I have been comforted by the fact that we have always had at least two qualified accountants on the governing body who can question and check the accounts and assure us that they are right, that we are not making mistakes, and that the college is in good financial order, especially when we are under pressure. We are under financial pressure; there has been the VAT issue, which I will not go into now, but we have debated it on many occasions. It is a great comfort and reassurance that we have professionals sitting on the governing body who can look at an account, make sense of it, and ensure that we are doing the right thing. It is not just a question of numeracy, which I have; it is about the specific skill of accountancy.

New clauses 1 and 2 would make a very valuable addition to the Bill. I hope that the Government will accept them or build requirements of that kind into the Bill to ensure that colleges are well governed and well managed in financial matters.

[Gordon Marsden]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on speaking to the new clause with his customary insight and from past experience, which are powerful advocates for the mechanisms he proposes. There are not many vehicles in the House for the regular praising of accountants. I am tempted to say that if we were in the middle ages and my hon. Friend, with the passing of years, were to pass away, he might be subject to a posthumous cult of the patron saint of accountants. The serious point is that everything my hon. Friend said is valid. Whether what he proposes is done in a formal way, as he suggests, or by strong direction, the Government would do well to take on board his proposals.

[Robert Halfon]

I thank the hon. Member for Luton North for the new clauses and for his wise contributions throughout the Committee. Rather than the role of banker, I think he has taken on the role of the Gandalf of the technical education and further education sector. There will therefore be no danger of his passing as the hon. Member for Blackpool South described.

The hon. Member for Luton North has tabled two important new clauses. In an ideal world it would be a good thing if all or even some members of governing bodies had important financial qualifications, but I remind him that the head of Blackpool and The Fylde College, when asked about that, said:

“I am thinking of the unintended consequences. It is very easy to say that we can dictate exactly the constitution of a governing body, but if we are looking at further education corporations across the country, some of them are very different. My own, for example, is an outstanding college.”—

I have seen it for myself, and it certainly is—

“We are very strong financially…we benefit from the mix and balance that we have on the board: we benefit from our business community and from two very able students on the board. I am hesitant about mandating exactly what that board would look like, because it varies by college. If, for example, I were a land-based college, I might want a slightly different mix, so I am hesitant about fully supporting that.”––[Official Report, Technical and Further Education Public Bill Committee, 22 November 2016; c. 60, Q80.]

When I asked her about the best way to achieve what she had done, she said what is needed is an expert to manage finances: not necessarily, dare I say it, someone with an educational background—we were talking about the education administrator earlier—but someone with a good understanding of finances. Where colleges are doing better even with all the financial pressures, I suspect that is because they have brilliant financial teams as well as the brilliant leadership of the principals and the advice of the governing body.

It is the governing body of the college that is best placed to ensure that effective management is in place that meets the needs of the college, but it must be the principal who puts her team in who has the day-to-day responsibilities. When colleges fail, as the hon. Gentleman will know, the proper intervention system is in place, with the education commissioner and suchlike.

The introduction of the insolvency regime will change a lot of this anyway, and it will serve to emphasise the importance of sound financial management. Although the Government are committed to the protection of learners, corporations are ultimately responsible for ensuring the financial health of their institutions.

I am wary of imposing such a measure, but I have a lot of genuine sympathy with the hon. Gentleman’s intentions. I commit to continue working with the sector to strengthen the financial acumen of governing bodies and the capability of financial directors. That will protect the interests of not only the colleges, learners and employers in the local communities but the taxpayer, which is incredibly important. On that basis, I hope the hon. Gentleman will withdraw the motion.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I thank the Minister for his assurances and for his acceptance of the points I have made, if not of the new clauses. Even if nothing arrives in the Bill, I hope that guidance to colleges will, in one form or another, make sure that proper financial governance and financial management takes place so that insolvency is avoided at all possible costs.

[Robert Halfon]

I should have said that we are lucky in the sense that we have the Association of Colleges, the Collab Group and the Education and Training Foundation, and all those organisations are doing everything they can to improve financial leadership in colleges up and down the country.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.