Domestic Building Works (Consumer Protection) Bill

Lee Rowley Excerpts

Friday 19th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lee Rowley)]

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate, Madam Deputy Speaker. Let me first congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) on the points that he has raised about the important issue of consumer protection and the need to get the balance right between the sale of goods and services and ensuring that quality is achieved at the end of the day. Ensuring that we have a high-quality and professional construction industry and consumer protection is very important, and I am really grateful to him for raising awareness of that.

We all know there are issues and we all have such stories, whether they are ours personally or others that we have heard, and I am very sorry to hear about his constituents Mr and Mrs Smith. We know that there is a challenge from a minority of people and organisations in this industry who do not do the right thing time in and time out. The question is not about the problem—I think the definition of the problem would be accepted by people across the House and outside it—but about what is done proportionately to try to mitigate and reduce it. As we know from other elements of consumer protection that we deal with, even if we have ombudsman schemes, licensing schemes and alternative resolutions, they may improve situations but they are not guaranteed to and they are not panaceas on their own.

The question always comes back to the philosophical discussion that we have daily in this place: what we think the Government should do, when they should intervene and when it is proportionate to do so. This is rightly about balancing how we protect the consumer and protect and support individual agency—with markets that have sufficient information and knowledge in them so that people can make decisions without needing other organisations, groups or the state to intervene—with how we prevent guilds from being created, which is vital. I am not suggesting for a moment that my hon. Friend’s Bill would do that. There are already hundreds and hundreds of employee systems that require substantial qualifications, licensing schemes or costs to be paid, which, over time, create issues for a dynamic workforce, industry and sectors that support people wanting to obtain goods and services.

As my hon. Friend rightly indicated, this is a question of risk. It is about where to draw the line. Although, I am afraid to say, on balance we as a Government are not minded to support the Bill at this time, we are very keen to continue to discuss this, because we accept that there is an issue. The question is whether a licensing scheme is proportionate to the problem at this time.

Notwithstanding the fact that we understand there is a problem, the Government are doing a lot of work on this. Let me run through some of that quickly. First, the Government have recently consulted on proposals for a mandatory alternative disputes resolution scheme in the home improvement sector. There will be more information on that in due course, because none of us wants a situation where any consumer or business should have to, want to, need to or be required to go to court in the first instance to try to resolve such a situation.

Secondly, additional work is under way through the domestic household decarbonisation retrofit programme. That is where the Government have more ability to impact processes. We are requiring installers to hold appropriate certifications or to be TrustMark-registered.

Thirdly, we are working closely with the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities to look at the consumer protections available through the competent persons schemes, which allow builders to self-regulate in areas where they can self-certify. For example, competent person schemes must ensure that consumers are provided with the appropriate financial protection for a minimum of six years to put work right to dwellings that are non-compliant with building regulations.

Fourthly, we have the Building Safety Bill. To ensure that there are safe and high-quality buildings, we want to make sure that, throughout a building’s life cycle, the building safety regulations can provide support. There are powers in the Bill to make regulations regarding competence requirements. These have already been published in draft alongside the Bill.

In summary, nobody would disagree with the actuality of the problem and the challenge that it creates for individuals, such as for my hon. Friend and his constituents as well as for people in my constituency and those of all Members. Given that this is such a long-standing issue that has been around for decades, if not centuries, the question is what we do about it. We hope that the measures that are being taken, which I have outlined, indicate that the Government intend to step in where necessary while retaining proportionality in what we do and in making sure that there is a functioning market without state intervention. The Government would like to extend to hon. Members, including my hon. Friend, an invitation to continue to discuss the ways to address this issue and how we build on existing organisations and initiatives and the other activities that I have outlined. I finish by thanking my hon. Friend.

[Mark Garnier]

My hon. Friend is being incredibly kind. First, let me quickly say a great thanks to everybody, particularly the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) and all the various people who have been involved in the Bill. I think the Minister is very sincere in what he is saying about how we can collaborate. Before he finishes, in the light of all his undertakings and assurances of collaborative work, it would probably be a good idea if I were to withdraw my Bill. Am I allowed to beg to ask leave to withdraw my Bill, Madam Deputy Speaker?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

The hon. Gentleman cannot procedurally withdraw his Bill during an intervention on the Minister. If the Minister finishes his speech and the hon. Gentleman, with the leave of the House, is able to make another speech, then he may withdraw his Bill, but I have another Member trying to catch my eye. I think the answer might be that if we proceed speedily, all this might come to pass.

[Lee Rowley]

There has never been more of an invitation to be brief. In the interest of brevity, let me say that I would be very happy to continue the conversation with my hon. Friend, and I look forward to doing so.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lee Rowley Excerpts

Tuesday 16th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)]

3. What steps he is taking to promote the onshoring of manufacturing jobs and production to the UK.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lee Rowley)]

The Government are committed to a strong, vibrant and diverse manufacturing sector in the United Kingdom. The west midlands—and the UK as a whole—is already a great place to do business. The Government will continue to focus on encouraging businesses, improving the long-term competitiveness and productivity of manufacturing via initiatives such as Help to Grow, the Made Smarter programme, the Catapult programme and others.

[Jack Dromey]

For this country’s manufacturing base to prosper and succeed, it requires a firm commitment from Government to support the making and buying of goods manufactured in Britain. The Minister will be familiar with the shameful decision by Melrose to shut a factory in Chester Road, Erdington with 70 years of history; those manufacturing jobs were instead exported to Poland. What steps will he take to recoup the £67 million of taxpayers’ money given to Melrose to export jobs to Poland? Will he send an unmistakeable message to Melrose that it will get not one penny more of taxpayers’ support unless it works with the workforce and all the key stakeholders to find an alternative manufacturing use for its site in one of the most deprived communities in Britain?

[Lee Rowley]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for the question. We were disappointed, as he was, by GKN Melrose’s decision. Ultimately, such decisions are for individual companies, but we realise the significant impact on his community and are working with the local community to try to find alternative ways to support employees in the area.

[Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)]

The Minister knows that one of the best ways to promote the onshoring of manufacturing jobs and production to the UK is to shape regulation to support enterprise. What steps has his Department made to take forward the recommendations of the Prime Minister’s taskforce on innovation, growth and regulatory reform?

[Lee Rowley]

We know regulation has a critical part to play in ensuring that we get the frameworks right for long-term investment and support. My hon. Friend will know that one of my colleagues who was appointed alongside me was an author of that report, and the Secretary of State and I, and all Ministers, will continue to review what we can do to improve regulation over the long term.

[Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)]

When it comes to manufacturing, the first thought on the mind of all Scotland fans this morning is quite how Steve Clarke and his team continue to manufacture so many brilliant wins.

Notwithstanding my necessary gloating, I have a serious question for the Minister. Does he agree and accept that to harness, safeguard and expand manufacturing jobs in Scotland’s tidal energy sector, his Government must deliver the £71 million that the industry has asked for?

[Lee Rowley]

We know there is a substantial amount of work to do to decarbonise the UK economy, including the energy sector. We are doing that in a range of ways, and I will continue to co-ordinate with the Minister of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelsea and Fulham (Greg Hands), to support that activity.

[Stephen Flynn]

I am afraid that answer simply does not cut it. This is a world-leading industry based in Scotland, and it has the capacity to provide 11% of the entire UK’s electricity. The Minister will be aware that the likes of Canada, France and Japan have put in place financial mechanisms to capitalise on tidal energy. Is he seriously saying that his Government would rather see jobs offshored to those countries than see them in Scotland?

[Lee Rowley]

I apologise if the hon. Gentleman did not hear my first answer. I said that the Department will continue to look at all opportunities to decarbonise the electricity grid and to ensure that, over the long term, energy can support that decarbonisation. We will continue to look at tidal, and we will bring forward the opportunities that we are able to bring forward.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend confirm that the Chancellor’s capital investment tax relief of 130% is leading to a sharp increase in manufacturing investment, demonstrated by Alpro at its superb manufacturing site in Burton Latimer in the Kettering constituency?

[Lee Rowley]

My hon. Friend gives a brilliant example of where the support that is being provided by the Treasury and the Chancellor can, over the long term, ensure investment in plant and machinery and improvement in productivity across the country.

[Richard Thomson (Gordon) (SNP)]

4. What steps his Department is taking to allocate funding from the Clean Steel Fund before 2023 following the development of hydrogen-based steelmaking projects in Sweden and Germany.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lee Rowley)]

The Government continue to work with the UK steel sector, through the UK Steel Council, regular meetings and constant dialogue, to understand its decarbonisation plans, whether through electric arc, industrial carbon capture equipment or other emerging technologies such as hydrogen.

[Richard Thomson]

In contrast to Germany’s €3 billion hydrogen plan, there was no new funding announced in the recent Budget for clean steel projects. As 2023 is far too late, with primary steel plants accounting for 15% of UK CO₂ emissions, will the Government now commit funding to clean steel projects similar to the ones we see in Germany and Sweden, or will steel communities be left standing by once again while European competitors get on with levelling up their industries?

[Lee Rowley]

I caution against the hon. Gentleman’s comparison. We have a similar ambition to countries such as Germany on things like hydrogen, and we have already published our hydrogen strategy. I have had extensive engagement with the steel sector in my two months as Minister for steel, including another visit yesterday, and we continue to want to support the industry on its decarbonisation journey. We know it is challenging, but there are already examples and we will continue to work with the industry to ensure it happens.

[Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op)]

Years of Tory neglect and inaction mean the UK is falling further behind in the race to win the future of green steel production. Governments around the world are committing to their steel industries with long-term investment, but the Minister, the Budget and, indeed, the hydrogen strategy have failed to deliver any timetable for how the Clean Steel Fund will be implemented. There appears to be no urgency and no plan.

Will the Secretary of State tell us today whether he will back Labour’s plan for a £3 billion steel renewal fund to achieve near-zero-emissions steel production by 2035 to secure UK steel’s future? If not, why is he so content to see British industries lose out, more British businesses go under and more British jobs lost?

[Lee Rowley]

That is neither an accurate reflection of the situation nor an accurate reflection of the historical support that has been given to the steel industry. Since 2013, there has been £600 million-worth of support for electricity price relief. The industrial energy transformation fund was opened last year and steel companies had the opportunity to apply for it, and we have published the steel procurement pipeline and the steel safeguards. We will continue to work with this important sector to ensure that it can decarbonise and has long-term support for its future.

[Mr Speaker]

I call Neil Parish.

--- Later in debate ---

[Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con)]

10. What steps he is taking with the Secretary of State for Transport to help support the aviation sector to decarbonise.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lee Rowley)]

The Jet Zero Council, which is jointly chaired by my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Business and for Transport, brings together industry leaders and the Government to discuss how best to reduce the impact of aviation on our environment. The recently published net zero strategy provides the framework, and the commitment made in the Budget to extend funding for the Aerospace Technology Institute to 2031 demonstrates the importance that the Government attach to making progress on this issue.

[Huw Merriman]

The issue with sustainable aviation fuel is not how to produce it—we can do that—but how to bring the price down so that there is a return on capital and an investment case for it, as there is for renewables. What more can the Government do to support sustainable aviation fuels, and does the Minister agree that we need a global approach to the solution?

[Lee Rowley]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to highlight the challenges of bringing the cost down, as is the case in so many areas of the net zero strategy, but progress is being made. We are keen to support the development of new technology solutions. He will know that we have set out an ambition for 10% of the UK’s aviation fuel to be SAF by 2030. We recognise the challenge of the cost, but I know that my hon. Friend, in his capacity as Chair of the Transport Committee, has announced an inquiry into the matter; I look forward to working with him and understanding the conclusions and proposals that he puts forward.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

It has just been revealed that the Transport Secretary is spending departmental money to lobby against the development of private airfields. This includes lobbying against plans to build a battery gigafactory at Coventry airport. What hope do we have of decarbonising transport when the very Cabinet member responsible for that brief is more interested in having somewhere to land his private jet? What conversations is BEIS having with the Department for Transport to ensure that it takes this matter seriously?

[Lee Rowley]

I am not sure that this is Transport questions, but it is a question in that spirit. I understand that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State absolutely disputes the description that has just been given by the hon. Lady. On her question, there is a huge amount of work under way to try to decarbonise aviation, as demonstrated in the announcements last week at COP and the work that the Government have been doing for a number of years. We will continue to do that to ensure that we hit the net zero target by 2050.

[Darren Henry (Broxtowe) (Con)]

11. What steps his Department is taking to support the renewable energy sector.

--- Later in debate ---

[Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con)]

14. What steps he is taking to support energy-intensive businesses.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lee Rowley)]

We have continued to engage extensively with energy-intensive companies, including by visits from me as recently as yesterday. We want to understand their concerns and help secure a competitive and viable future for industries, which support so many high-skilled, high-wage jobs across the UK.

[Robert Largan]

High Peak is home to the UK’s largest quarries and much of our lime production industry. Those lime producers are essential for construction, engineering and infrastructure, but they are being hit by a double whammy of soaring global energy prices and an outdated UK emissions trading system, which is still benchmarked at the old EU level, geared towards European plants operating to a significantly lower standard and also in receipt of generous state subsidy. The UK’s lime producers are committed to doing their bit to tackle climate change, but the current benchmark is unachievable given their production chemistry. I urge the Minister to urgently review the UK’s emissions trading system benchmark for lime producers.

[Lee Rowley]

As a fellow Derbyshire MP, I know how much of a loud, independent and big voice my hon. Friend gives to High Peak since his election in 2019. I am proud to work with him. On this specific subject, we know there are long-term challenges for industries and individual sectors, and we are grateful for his comments. I am happy to meet him to talk more about this, if that would be helpful.

[Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con)]

15. What steps his Department is taking to help reduce the cost of achieving net zero emissions by 2050.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lee Rowley)]

My hon. Friend is right to highlight the importance of driving down the cost of transition to tread more lightly on the Earth over the long term. Significant progress has already been made in the cost of technologies such as solar panels, and the recently published net zero strategy commits to working with business to realise further economic opportunities.

[Gordon Henderson]

While I welcome that answer, does the Minister agree that achieving net zero emissions will depend on individual householders? Many people in my constituency are finding it difficult to afford their fuel bills, even without the cost involved in installing new heating systems such as heat pumps. What can the Government do to help those people?

[Lee Rowley]

My hon. Friend is right that we must work with householders and businesses on a longer-term basis so that we can deliver the net zero ambitions we set ourselves by 2050. As the Minister for Business, Energy and Corporate Responsibility has highlighted a number of times, we are trying to drive down the cost of technology over the long term. A number of firms have come forward on some of the technologies we hope to use, such as heat pumps, and have indicated it should be possible to do that.

[Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lee Rowley)]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that we have made huge progress so far or we have made a good start in trying to achieve decarbonised flight, and we will continue to do that. It is examples such as the fantastic work demonstrated over the summer, which I know he was present for, at Exeter airport, supported by the Department for Business, that will allow us to meet our long-term ambitions in this sector.

[Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

T2. A loophole in company law means that Bain Capital does not have to reveal how much it is paying the army of advisers helping it demutualise Liverpool Victoria. FTI Consulting, Clifford Chance, Fenchurch Advisory Partners and others have all benefited, perhaps by as much as £50 million or more. Does the Secretary of State not think that the members of Liverpool Victoria, whose money this is, have a right to know exactly how their money is being spent?

[Lee Anderson (Ashfield) (Con)]

T6. Carl Berridge’s company in Ashfield produces energy-saving boilers and heating solutions for industry, and he tells me that many businesses are unaware that new technologies can substantially reduce their energy consumption in a cost-effective way. What are the Government doing to ensure that industry gets the right information and businesses such as Powergas have the incentives they need to reduce the carbon footprint of industry?

[Lee Rowley]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the work he does in Ashfield and for his incredible voice in this regard. He is right to highlight how technology will take much of the weight of the transition over the next 30 years, and the importance therefore of companies supporting such technology development. We are engaging with businesses, and we will continue to do so, through programmes such as boosting access for SMEs on energy efficiency. I am happy to talk to my hon. Friend about that if it helps.

[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

T3. Last month, I met Ed Burns, the managing director of H. Grossman Ltd, a toy company based in Glasgow East. Alongside the British Toy & Hobby Association, it is concerned about the growing number of unsafe toys being sold to UK customers by third-party sellers via online marketplaces. Will the Minister meet us to discuss the campaign to tighten up safety on children’s toys?

Industrial Development Act 1982: Coronavirus-related Assistance

Lee Rowley Excerpts

Monday 15th November 2021 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lee Rowley)]

I am tabling this statement for the benefit of hon. Members to bring to their attention spend under the Industrial Development Act 1982. In addition to the obligation to report on spend under the Industrial Development Act annually, the Coronavirus Act 2020 created a new quarterly reporting requirement for spend which has been designated as coronavirus-related under the Coronavirus Act. This statement fulfils that purpose.

The statement also includes a report of the movement in contingent liability during the quarter. Hon. Members will wish to note that measures such as local authority grants, the coronavirus job retention scheme and self-employed income support scheme, and tax measures such as the suspension of business rates are not provided under the Industrial Development Act 1982 and hence are not included below.

This report covers the second quarter of 2021, from 1 April to 30 June 2021, in accordance with the Coronavirus Act.

The written ministerial statement covering the first quarter of 2021 was published on 22 June 2021.

Spend under the Coronavirus Act 2020

Under the Coronavirus Act 2020, there is a requirement to lay before Parliament details of the amount of assistance designated as coronavirus-related provided in each relevant quarter. In the period from 1 April to 30 June 2021, the following expenditures were incurred:

Supporting Small Business

Lee Rowley Excerpts

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lee Rowley)]

I am grateful to the Opposition for using today to raise such an important matter for Members on both sides of the House, and I welcome this opportunity to debate it. In that spirit, let us start with where we can agree.

We absolutely agree that British businesses are hugely important to our high streets and communities across the United Kingdom. I have seen this in my first few weeks as the Minister for industry, speaking to and visiting businesses and business representatives up and down the country. I have seen it over my four years as a Member of Parliament, as all other Members will have done, discussing how small businesses can thrive and how, although high streets are changing, they remain the linchpin of our local communities. More broadly, I have seen it as the son of a sole trader who spent 40 years in business in his local community. To take the shadow Chancellor’s point about first jobs, I have also seen it as somebody who had a job on the high street in Chesterfield with an estate agent and who spent his dinner hours stocking a newsagent’s so that they could continue to trade.

Secondly, we can agree that we have been through an exceptionally difficult time. The pandemic impacted every single one of us at an extraordinary time of our lives, necessitating changes in the way we live, work and play. None of us had anticipated any of this prior to March 2020.

[Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Lee Rowley]

If the hon. Gentleman does not mind, let us just work out where we agree before we start talking about where we might not do so.

We did all this together as a nation and as communities, because we knew how important it was to get our society through these dark times. We can also agree that businesses faced particularly acute challenges. The challenge of 2020 and early 2021 was unprecedented for businesses. They had to close for periods, they were unable to trade in some instances, they had to change the ways in which they did business very quickly and then they returned to work. I am sure that everyone in the House—I know that the shadow Chancellor shares this view—has been humbled, as I have been, by the resilience of workers and entrepreneurs to keep their businesses going. They are the ones who have been straining every sinew on construction sites, serving us in shops and delivering vital goods. They have demonstrated an incredible level of resolve that we have never seen in peacetime, ingenuity and flexibility that we have never dreamed of and resilience that should make us all proud.

More broadly, we can also agree that business taxation requires review. That is why the Chancellor announced a review of business rates; it is why we have consulted on numerous changes to the existing scheme, although this was not acknowledged by the Opposition; and it is why the Valuation Office Agency is undertaking the latest revaluation, which will take place in 2023.

[Mike Amesbury]

I am sure it has not escaped the Minister’s attention that the Government have been in power for 11 years. This is not only about the coronavirus emergency. Businesses in my community, in Manor Park and Runcorn Shopping City, are desperate to move forward. Business rates are a broken system. Stop the dither and delay and get on with it—not another review but solid reform based on income going through the door. That is fair.

[Lee Rowley]

We have seen the Government make many changes over the past decade that have improved business conditions in this country and allowed businesses to continue to progress, and we will continue to do that. I know that ministerial colleagues will come forward with proposals in due course.

On the motion before us and the shadow Chancellor’s speech, it would be churlish not to recognise the extraordinary amount of support that the Government have already provided to business. Even as someone who prefers to focus on outputs and achievements in our country, I accept that the past 18 months were necessarily about inputs and keeping businesses going until they could properly trade again. To do that, we offered hundreds of billions of pounds of support from the taxpayer to provide one of the world’s most generous and comprehensive economic responses to the pandemic.

We enabled 1.3 million employers across the UK to furlough up to 11.5 million jobs. There were 1.6 million Government-backed loans, representing more than £79 billion of support. We paid out almost £14 billion in support to around 5 million self-employed people. We cut VAT for the hospitality and tourism sector. We waived billions of pounds of business rates for long periods at the height of the pandemic. And we brought in a range of regulatory easements to help businesses.

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

I ask for the Minister’s advice. One of the most frustrating things about business rates is when a business asks for some flexibility and it is difficult to speak to the right person. A number of businesses in my constituency want some flexibility on their business rates. They go to the council, but the council only collects the tax. They go to the valuation office, which only does the valuation. There is no system to appeal against business rates at the moment. Will the Minister address that in his speech?

[Lee Rowley]

I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concerns, and I acknowledge the challenge. There is always a balance to be struck. This level of detail is perhaps slightly away from the motion, but I would be happy to discuss it separately.

We should not forget all the support that we have provided over such a sustained period, and we should not strip this debate of that context. Now our task is to make sure that businesses, large and small, have the opportunity, the talent and the ability to unleash their full potential, which is where I am afraid I will have to diverge again from the Opposition and their remarks today.

The extraordinary circumstances of the pandemic required an extraordinary response from the Government, and we delivered that extraordinary response, but it did not come without cost. Whether we like it or not, providing such a comprehensive and decisive economic response has dramatically increased public borrowing. Government debt has exceeded the size of the UK economy for the first time in more than 50 years. It was an appropriate and proportionate strategy, when we were faced with a real and immediate crisis, to support businesses and allow them to ready themselves for when the recovery came, but over the medium term it is clearly not sustainable to continue borrowing at these levels.

[Emma Hardy]

rose—

[Lee Rowley]

I hope the hon. Lady will be able to answer that point.

[Emma Hardy]

Actually, I was hoping to put to the Minister the same question that I put to my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) on the issue of debt and debt advice.

The Money and Pensions Service is changing the system that it operates by moving towards having call centres rather than having as many face-to-face appointments for people who are struggling with debt. This has been an incredibly difficult year and people are finding themselves in higher levels of debt, so will the Minister comment on the support that is available to help people who are struggling right now? Will he be speaking to the Money and Pensions Service about its decision to move towards remote consultations rather than face-to-face consultations?

[Lee Rowley]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her contribution, and I know she has a clear interest in this. I fear it is going slightly away from the discussion we are having, but I am happy to have discussions with her separately. I know that my colleagues will continually communicate with and consult people in this important policy area.

As I was saying, whether we like it or not there has been a large change in public borrowing. When we were faced with the crisis, we took action. But as the pandemic starts to subside, it is vital that we make moves to return to a position of strong and sustainable finances. Ultimately—this is what the Labour party never wants to acknowledge, and it can state that it is unapologetically pro-business as much as it wishes—there can be no strength for businesses in a country where a Government have lost control of the public finances. The shadow Chancellor invited us to look at her speech at last week’s Labour party conference, which I did; she made much of the “everyday economy”. Businesses in the everyday economy will never be able to thrive long term on policies that have no regard to the macroeconomic situation or no clear way of being funded. Neither before nor in today’s debate has the Labour party provided any meaningful explanation of how it will pay for abolishing business rates.

[Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

rose—

[Lee Rowley]

I am sorry, but I am going to make progress.

Entrepreneurs who take difficult decisions and face challenges every day on how to make their businesses grow will never fully succeed in a country that refuses to acknowledge that similar national choices are ultimately required. Back during the pandemic, we were clear that support was necessary, but we were also clear that it would be temporary. Even so, we have helped and we continue to help businesses during this recovery period.

We have been open for business for months now but we continue to help businesses recover: business rates relief will continue well into 2022, which is even acknowledged in the motion, meaning that eligible businesses will not have paid rates at all for 15 months and will have had a significantly reduced rate for a further nine months; there has been more than £2 billion of discretionary business grant funding to local authorities, including a top-up of nearly half a billion pounds, which is open until March 2022; we have had the recovery loan scheme, which allows businesses in the UK to continue to benefit from Government-backed finance until the end of the year; we have our pay as you grow scheme, which gives bounce back loan borrowers the flexibility to tailor repayments; and we have the lower rate of VAT, the £600 million start-up loans fund, the super deduction and an extension of the commercial lease evictions moratorium.

Just as they do naturally, British businesses are getting back on their feet and doing what they do best. We know that this is a difficult time and has been an extraordinarily difficult time, but I pay tribute to businesses for being able to get going again. A strong growth story is being shown by the level of unemployment, which has fallen for six months in a row and is now below 5%— lower than the levels in France, America, Canada, Italy and Spain; one of the fastest recoveries of any major economy in the world; business confidence being up; and job vacancies growing for eight consecutive months and at a record high.

The Labour party will never admit this, but the UK is a great place to do business. We have some of the lowest corporation taxes in the G20, the kind of lean regulation that puts us in the global top 10 for the ease of doing business and a highly skilled workforce. Next year, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will publish an enterprise strategy, which will set out how we want to revive Britain’s spirit of enterprise and help more people start and scale a business.

[Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC)]

The Minister mentions the reduced rate of VAT, which has been welcomed by a number of businesses in my constituency. May I invite him to comment on whether the Government have considered an extension to that? Many businesses in my constituency have informed me that that reduced rate has allowed them to invest in not only their businesses, but their employees’ wages—I am sure that is something we can agree on.

[Lee Rowley]

The hon. Gentleman is tempting me to make policy in an Opposition day debate, but I will step back from that, given that it is well above my pay scale.

Let me come back to the point about the UK being a good place to do business. It is easy to see why the UK is consistently home to one of the largest and most resilient economies in the world. All of this underlines precisely why the UK has long been a great place to do business and will continue to be so. That is why we are seeing so much excitement from the rest of the world, with investors here right now at the global investment summit. That shows just how attracted companies are to the business-friendly environment that we have.

The Government’s track record shows that we have been there for small and bigger businesses since the start of the pandemic; that we are now here to support them through the recovery; and that we will continue to create the conditions that will allow them to grow, thrive and innovate in future, as part of a dynamic, flexible market economy that supports private enterprise, backs entrepreneurs and recognises the importance of wealth creators in local communities.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Lee Rowley]

The first building block for doing that—Labour Members should listen, given that they are all so keen to intervene—is to ensure that we have a strong and sustainable economy, built on strong and sustainable public finances and with policies that are funded. By working together, we can then continue to ensure that Britain is the best place in the world to do business, both now and in future.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lee Rowley Excerpts

Tuesday 21st September 2021 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

6. What recent progress he has made on the Government’s proposals to support automotive battery manufacturers.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lee Rowley)]

The Government remain firmly committed to securing gigafactories in the UK, and have demonstrated that commitment through the automotive transformation fund. As many Members will know, the first site in Sunderland was announced in July, and will see an unprecedented 100,000 battery-electric cars produced annually by Nissan and Envision AESC from 2024.

[Alun Cairns]

I congratulate the Minister on his appointment, and pay tribute to the Secretary of State and his team for facilitating investment in gigafactories in the UK. Britishvolt is making excellent progress in Blyth, but was originally intended to come to my constituency. These large-scale projects have both devolved and reserved functions. When similar projects arise, might a Minister be dedicated to lead them, looking after both the devolved and the reserved functions and working with the Welsh Government in securing that investment?

[Lee Rowley]

I am extremely grateful for my right hon. Friend’s question. I know that he is a huge champion of Wales, and that he has huge experience in this regard. I should be happy to meet him to discuss his suggestion. As he will know, the automotive transformation fund is a UK-wide programme, and we will welcome applications for support throughout the UK. I look forward to talking to my right hon. Friend about that.

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

I welcome the Minister to his position.

The Prime Minister’s climate change spokeswoman recently announced that she would not be buying an electric car because of the lack of charging infrastructure and battery capacity. In 2018 the UK produced a quarter of Europe’s electric vehicles, but that is set to fall to just 4% by 2030. Motor manufacturers predict that tens of thousands of good jobs will be lost.

Will the Minister confirm that even if he meets his own targets, by 2025 the UK will have only 7% of the battery production capacity of Germany? Germans receive grants of up to €9,000 to buy an electric car, three times what he is offering. What will he do to deliver the battery capacity that is needed to secure British jobs, and make electric cars affordable? Does he understand what affordable means?

[Lee Rowley]

We absolutely understand what affordable means, and we are absolutely committed to building an industry that supports batteries in the United Kingdom, ensuring that the transition to electric vehicles will take place within a short period. I am happy to talk to the hon. Lady more about that if she wishes.

[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

7. What plans his Department has to bring forward legislative proposals on an entitlement to statutory leave and pay for parents of babies requiring neonatal care.

--- Later in debate ---

[Peter Gibson (Darlington) (Con)]

20. What steps his Department is taking to support hydrogen production in the UK.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lee Rowley)]

My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (Andy Carter) asks a timely question; he may be aware that the United Kingdom recently published a hydrogen strategy outlining the Government’s comprehensive package to incentivise low-carbon hydrogen, and a broader plan to help the wider hydrogen economy to develop.

[Andy Carter]

The recent increase in wholesale energy prices strengthens the case for investing in hydrogen in the north-west of England. May I urge the Minister to come to Warrington and see the businesses that rely on intensive use of energy, and rapidly progress hydrogen and the HyNet scheme to produce carbon capture and storage in the UK, so that businesses such as Novelis Recycling and Solvay Interox are able to decarbonise rapidly?

[Lee Rowley]

My hon. Friend is a doughty champion for the north-west and his constituency of Warrington. The Secretary of State has said to me that one of the ministerial team would be happy to visit. I think the Secretary of State would be happy to do that—indeed, I think he has already visited. As my hon. Friend is aware, many of the decisions around this matter are currently under way, so I am not going to comment on them at this point. At the end of the process, we will have a low-carbon hydrogen economy to be proud of.

[Peter Gibson]

I welcome my hon. Friend to his place. Teesside already produces more than 50% of the UK’s commercially viable hydrogen. What assessment has he made of the benefits of the recently signed deal between BP, the Abu Dhabi National Oil Company and Masdar for the Tees valley? Does he support the phenomenal work being done locally by Ben Houchen to revolutionise our green energy sector?

[Lee Rowley]

The benefits will be huge. This work is another example of the fantastic Conservative Tees valley team led by my hon. Friend, supporting Darlington, and the Mayor, and it demonstrates what we can do in an area to level up and improve it for the long term.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

Future of Coal in the UK

Lee Rowley Excerpts

Thursday 3rd December 2020 Commons Chamber

[Lee Rowley (North East Derbyshire) (Con)]

Thank you for the opportunity to speak in the debate, Madam Deputy Speaker. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North West Durham (Mr Holden) on securing it, and it is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Brendan Clarke-Smith). Even in the year when our attention has rightly been focused mostly elsewhere, it is important to have opportunities like today to speak on important subjects such as this. If there is one subject, as the grandson of miners, that I feel I am always compelled to speak about, it is coal: the substance that both literally and metaphorically my constituency is built upon.

I will come to our transition away from coal as a country in a moment, but before I do, I hope the House will not mind if I, like others, dwell for a moment on the transition that my community has made away from coal. For North East Derbyshire, coal was and remains a huge part of all our lives and our history. It is an industry on which a predecessor of mine, Tom Swain, said 55 years ago yesterday from a Bench somewhere here, coal is only possible

“by dint of hard work and hard thinking. It is an industry which is dependent on very strong men battling every day of their lives with nature.”—[Official Report, 2 December 1965; Vol. 721, c. 1781.]

Even today, in North East Derbyshire, we mine. Hartington opencast in Staveley is, as far as I am aware, the last and largest opencast mine in England and will continue to produce coal until early 2021, when its regeneration is complete. I visited Hartington in the summer, by the kind invitation of John Wilson, and was enthralled and fascinated by it in equal measure. For a brief second, standing on the precipice of a canyon many metres deep, surrounded by this black gold, which has shaped our lives for generations, I felt a real link to my and our community’s past. When Hartington closes, it will be the closure of final chapter in a very long, illustrious and proud history.

While we remain proud of that heritage, life moves on and my constituency does, too. That is why we now must focus on the incredible challenge we have as a country to shape our new energy future. That all starts with agreeing a pathway to tread more lightly on this earth. The Prime Minister and the Government have inherited this commitment and have made a strong start towards achieving those aims and building on the progress already made, but in the short time I have left, I want to make three points on this hugely important area of policy. I know the Government understand those points and I am keen to see the wider public debate recognise and comprehend them, too.

First, I sometimes wonder if the gravity of what we are trying to do has really been fully comprehended. We are committed to basically re-engineering four centuries of our society’s foundations in a single generation; 2050 is the most incredibly ambitious timeframe and we cannot lose sight of that, as—I do not mean to be typically partisan—the Opposition Front-Bench team did last year in the general election by just plucking dates out of thin air. We have made much progress but we must not diminish the colossal nature of this endeavour.

Secondly, we cannot solve climate change through rationing and nor should we want to. The debate on the environment veers too often towards control and compulsion—it will not work. That is why I very much welcome the Government’s commitment to jet zero and green maritime, which are actual solutions to how we live today, not seeking to reduce that. If coronavirus teaches us nothing else, it teaches us what happens when activity is constrained, even for a short time. Degrowth is a nice debate to have in academic green circles, yet it has real-life implications. We should not exchange one forced retraction of our economy as a result of a pandemic for a debate on another one done voluntarily. Climate change will be solved by innovation, not impediments.

Thirdly, we should, like so many of my colleagues, recognise that this debate is nuanced. Steel and aluminium require coal on a temporary basis, and we should never forget that. Technology will solve this problem—give it time.

Fracking: Rother Valley

Lee Rowley Excerpts

Monday 28th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Lee Rowley (North East Derbyshire) (Con)]

Thank you for the opportunity to contribute briefly to this debate, Mr Deputy Speaker. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Alexander Stafford), whose constituency neighbours the one I have the privilege to represent, on securing this debate and on the strong words that he has used tonight. He is a doughty campaigner for his constituents, and I am grateful to see another hon. Member on these Benches to join me and many other hon. Members from the previous Parliament who opposed fracking and recognised that it was not the direction that the country should go in. I welcome him and thank him again for his contribution.

I would also like to say thank you formally to the Minister, who, since he came into his position last year, has listened very carefully to those of us who have concerns. I am immensely grateful for all the time he has given us, both in the last Parliament and this, to highlight those concerns and the impact they have on our constituencies. Most importantly, I thank him for the immensely brilliant decision that he took at the end of the last Parliament to institute the moratorium, which has made such a difference to my constituency and those who have been impacted, or faced the threat of being, impacted, by fracking.

Fracking was one of the big issues for me and my constituency in the last Parliament. We were one third of the unfortunate troika that my hon. Friend referred to, with our site in Marsh Lane, a beautiful village in the parish of Eckington. An exploratory drilling site was proposed in the middle of green-belt land, which had been untouched for several centuries, as far as we could tell. That was almost universally opposed by local residents, and I, along with many campaign groups, fought against it for three years. It was the Government’s willingness to listen during that process and take feedback from communities such as mine that led to the moratorium last October. I am immensely grateful for that. It has made a transformational difference to my constituency, and we thank the Minister for it.

I will end my short contribution by saying that the strength of feeling in Marsh Lane, Eckington parish and North East Derbyshire about fracking and the need to retain this moratorium remains as it was in October. I ask the Minister, if he can, to reconfirm the Government’s intentions in this regard and to confirm that fracking will not go ahead in north Derbyshire.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lee Rowley Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Nadhim Zahawi]

That is certainly a consideration for the review.

[Lee Rowley (North East Derbyshire) (Con)]

5. What steps her Department is taking to review the regulation of hydraulic fracturing.

[The Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth (Kwasi Kwarteng)]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s campaign on this fracking issue. We are all concerned about the impact of recent seismic events in Lancashire. My hon Friend knows that the Government have been clear that they will support the exploration of our shale gas resources only in a safe and sustainable way. The Oil and Gas Authority is undertaking an analysis of the data from Cuadrilla’s operations and we will set out our future approach as soon as we have considered that report.

[Lee Rowley]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his comments. Will he confirm that he will consider not just the OGA review, but feedback from constituencies such as mine that do not believe that fracking is the way forward?

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

My hon. Friend is right: this is one of the top issues that come across my desk. I feel the local concern about it, and we will take that into consideration when we reach a final decision.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lee Rowley Excerpts

Tuesday 11th June 2019 Commons Chamber

[Lee Rowley (North East Derbyshire) (Con)]

At a recent Public Accounts Committee sitting, the issue of fracking and specifically the decommissioning of fracking sites was raised, and the answers from senior civil servants were not great. Will the Minister meet me, so that we can discuss those concerns in more detail?

[Chris Skidmore]

I know that this issue affects my hon. Friend’s constituency directly and that he is a dedicated constituency MP, so I will happily meet him to discuss it.

Shale Gas Exploration: Planning Permission

Lee Rowley Excerpts

Wednesday 12th September 2018 Westminster Hall

[Lee Rowley (North East Derbyshire) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered planning permission for shale gas exploration.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. I thank all those attending and all those who have come along to speak. It is fantastic to see so many people in this Chamber for a 30-minute debate on fracking; it demonstrates the importance of this matter and the particular importance of the proposals before us.

Today I will talk about the current consultation, which the Government started and which will conclude in November, on the proposals to permit shale gas exploration through the permitted development scheme and the proposals to permit shale gas production through the national significant infrastructure projects scheme.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Lee Rowley]

If hon. Members will bear with me, I will do one to two minutes of introduction and then I will be happy to take interventions.

I will set out my stall immediately: I stand here today to highlight my concerns on both those proposals and an industry that is highly controversial as a form of energy extraction, has a chequered history in the United Kingdom, has not been proven at scale and has, in my part of the world, caused the greatest amount of opposition that I have ever seen in my 15 years of experience in politics.

[John Howell (Henley) (Con)]

rose—

[Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)]

rose—

[Lee Rowley]

I will give way to my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Sir Greg Knight).

[Sir Greg Knight]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on bringing this debate. The Government talk a lot about localism. Does he agree with me that, if that means anything and is not just meaningless waffle, it should mean that decisions taken by local planning committees should be the final say on the subject of extracting shale gas, and that those decisions should not be subject to being overturned by some faceless inspector who does not have to live with the consequences of his or her decision?

[Mr George Howarth (in the Chair)]

Before the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire continues his speech, it is right and proper that the Minister has 15 minutes to respond. The hon. Gentleman indicated he was willing to take interventions, but I should warn him that they need to be very limited in number, or he will have no speech of his own left.

[Lee Rowley]

I appreciate the Chair’s guidance and I will seek to conclude by 11.15 am, with any interventions that I have taken.

I thank the Minister, who has been incredibly kind to me in hearing my comments on this and has spent some time with me already to talk about it. She is fully aware of my views both on fracking in general and on these proposals; I do not think anything I say today is new. I know there is a range of views in this Chamber on fracking. That is a discussion for another time. I am on record as being hugely sceptical of the merits of fracking. I do not think it will achieve its objectives and I wish we would move on to something else in our energy policy.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Lee Rowley]

I will not take objections. What we need to debate here is the proposals on permitted development and NSIP. Whatever one’s views on those, my concern is exactly as has just been outlined by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire. The proposals before us for permitted development and NSIP do one main thing, and one main thing only: they take people out of a process that it is vital for them to be part of so that they have their opportunity to speak and to highlight why things are appropriate or inappropriate for their local area and why their environment will be so affected if these things go ahead.

[Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)]

I have had five sites in my constituency; one is currently being developed and a second one is before the planning inspectorate. Does my hon. Friend agree that, were we to go down the permitted development route, the concerns raised by residents about traffic planning at Roseacre Wood, which will probably kill it as a suitable site, would not be considered, and that the proposals the Government have laid before us are quite frankly bonkers?

[Lee Rowley]

My hon. Friend has a way with words, and he sums up the real concern within and without this House about the proposals. I understand the consultation is under way and is open; I hope that the Minister will highlight that she and the Government have an open mind on this. If I may demonstrate for a moment my experience in my constituency, I have had a planning application for exploration in Marsh Lane, which is the reason I became interested in this and the reason I have soured massively on fracking as a whole. That application simply to explore, which would be allowed under permitted development rights, would mean the imposition of heavy industrial equipment for five years. It would be the equivalent of pouring two football fields’ worth of concrete into an area that has not been changed since the 1695 enclosure Act, and putting a 60 metre-high drilling rig up there for six to nine months.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Lee Rowley]

I will not give way for the moment. It is not just the 60 metre-high drilling rig; it is the industrial equipment that would stay there for a period of five years just for the exploration. From my planning application, that is a 2 metre-high perimeter fence, a 4.8 metre-high combination of bunding and fencing, two to three cabinets of 3 metres in height, acoustic screening of 5 metres in height, four security cameras of 5.5 metres in height, a 2.9 metre-high power generator, two water tanks of 3 metres in height, a 4.5 metre-high Kooney pressure control, a 4 metre-high blowout prevention and skid and choke manifold, 9 metre-high lighting and a 10 metre-high emergency vent. That is the wholesale industrialisation of the Derbyshire countryside for what is not a temporary period—and that is just exploration.

[Mr Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

On the Island we have great problems as well, because we are one of the most geologically unstable parts of northern Europe. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is very poor precedent for the Government effectively to force through something that is locally unpopular in many areas, because they could do so with many other things in future, including housing targets? Overall, as well as fracking, this is poor democratic accountability on the part of Government.

[Lee Rowley]

I concur with my hon. Friend’s statement on that matter.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Lee Rowley]

I will give way in one moment. This is the point about permitted development. On the NSIP proposals for actual production of fracking, having read the consultation I am unsure how this can be put into NSIP, even if it was a good idea. The consultation itself seems to confuse major shale gas production with shale gas production, but I have not seen a definition of major versus minor. Ultimately, the point about shale gas is that it happens in many places. Either we are defining a single well pad as major and sticking individual well pads into the NSIP regime—

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Lee Rowley]

I will give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) and then to the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner).

[Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on bringing this important debate. As he knows, I am far more positive about the prospects for shale gas exploration than he is. Nevertheless, I and the Select Committee that I sit on have raised genuine concerns about the permitted development process, the clarity around it, and whether it relates to simply drilling a hole on an existing well pad or the construction of an entire well pad, which is heavy industrial construction and could literally go anywhere in any one of our constituencies. There are real concerns and we need clarity on that specific point.

[Lee Rowley]

I agree completely with my hon. Friend.

[Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)]

As the hon. Gentleman probably knows, people from Mosborough were on the march that we had in Bolsover. We approach fracking in a different way from what he has described today. It is no wonder that the richest man in Britain, the head of INEOS, who has 60% of the shares, is very much into fracking. He is fracking in our area and he is fracking in the North East Derbyshire area. People from as far away as Scarborough came to that rally and the truth is that most of Britain is against fracking. Why does the hon. Gentleman not do the same as I have done and tell the Government, “I am against fracking wherever it happens.”?

[Lee Rowley]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s involvement in this. This is my second debate on this question, and I welcome his attendance. I have been making the case strongly for North East Derbyshire and strongly against fracking in North East Derbyshire since I had the privilege to be elected to this place, and I will continue to do so. The hon. Gentleman is a former miner and I have a huge amount of respect for him. I am the grandson of former miners who probably worked with him in the last decades that we were in the mines. One thing that unifies us—we are on exactly opposite ends of the political spectrum—is fracking. We are products of the soil and the toil and the mines in our area, which we have been proud to be part of for generations, and we do not think that fracking is the right way to go.

To continue my NSIP point, the Planning Act 2008 put down a series of criteria that large-scale infrastructure projects should meet. I looked at them in preparation for the debate. Some examples are quite close to what we are talking about, such as gas reservation projects and liquefied natural gas reception facilities. For those to meet the NSIP regime criteria they need to hold 4.5 million cubic metres of gas a day. An individual fracking well and an individual fracking pad would be less than one hundredth of the size required by those criteria. That is the fundamental problem: the NSIP regime was not designed for this project and we should not use it.

[Sir Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman will have seen the recent research about the dangers of fracking near abandoned coalmines. Does he agree that there should be a moratorium until this has been properly investigated?

[Lee Rowley]

As the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on the impact of shale gas—the right hon. Gentleman is also a member—I am extremely concerned by issues that Professor Styles suggests could occur in mining areas like ours if fracking goes ahead at scale.

I will try to wind up as I want to ensure that the Minister has time to speak. As I said at the beginning, the fundamental problem with permitted development and NSIP is that it takes local people’s voices out of the discussion. Nearly 4,000 people in North East Derbyshire have been involved in the discussion because they are hugely concerned about this project. Whether people agree or disagree with it—I disagree—we have to give people the opportunity to voice their opinions. The consultation on the table, “Permitted development for shale gas exploration”, says that

“the Government will strengthen community engagement by consulting on whether developers should be required to conduct pre-application consultation prior to shale gas development.”

There is no point in conducting pre-application consultations if these things will be approved no matter what.

Fundamentally, if we have a problem of a lack of public consent for fracking, which we do—we clearly do in some parts of the country, such as mine—we should treat the problem either by not bothering with the policy or by trying to change people’s views. My view is that it should be the former, not the latter. We should not try to treat the symptom by taking people out of the process. I hope that, at the end of the consultation, the Government will listen and this will not go forward. Taking people out of the process is why the proposals for permitted development and NSIP for fracking are fundamentally wrong, and I hope that they do not go ahead.

--- Later in debate ---

[Claire Perry]

I will happily take an intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire.

[Lee Rowley]

I am disappointed by the Minister’s response so far. I put on the table some clear views about planning, but she has spent the first eight minutes of her speech not talking about planning. The reality is that people need to be heard, and people are not being heard with this speech.

[Claire Perry]

I am sorry, but I did begin by saying to my hon. Friend that I could not comment on individual planning applications. The purpose of the consultation is to get as many views as possible, particularly from those who are engaged in the planning process, about what the rights should look like. The floor is open for my hon. Friend to express his views, and all the things he has said today will be fed into the consultations.