Oral Answers to Questions

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Wednesday 15th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mark Fletcher (Bolsover) (Con)]

3. What steps she is taking with Cabinet colleagues to help low-income households access the internet.

[The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Julia Lopez)]

We want fantastic connectivity in every part of the UK. We have worked to ensure that a range of low-cost social tariffs are available in 99% of the UK for as little as £10 a month, which is highlighted in our Help for Households campaign and in our work with the Department for Work and Pensions, to make them easier for low-income households to access. We are also working on digital skills with the Department for Education.

[Mark Fletcher]

While we continue to make progress on this front, could the Minister remind utility companies, particularly British Gas, that not everybody has access to a computer and the internet? It would be helpful if its services reflected that.

[Julia Lopez]

I thank my hon. Friend for raising his concerns about British Gas. As the digital infrastructure Minister, I want to ensure that everyone has great access to the internet, but he might be interested to know that suppliers with more than 50,000 customers must allow people to pay energy bills in cash or on prepayment, and talk to them over the phone.

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

What assessment has the Minister made of the impact of cryptocurrency technologies on low-income households?

[Julia Lopez]

I confess that cryptocurrency is not in my portfolio, but I am happy to refer the hon. Lady to a Minister who may be able to answer that.

[Robert Courts (Witney) (Con)]

4. What steps her Department is taking to support the research and development sector.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Flick Drummond (Meon Valley) (Con)]

T3. In communities such as Cheriton and Bramdean in my constituency, there are people who have not been able to take part in the broadband voucher scheme because they are connected to a different cabinet from their neighbours, which in some cases is only a few metres from their door. Can my hon. Friend assure me that those communities will be able to benefit from the new procurement as soon as possible?

[The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Julia Lopez)]

I am pleased to say that premises in Meon Valley are included in our live gigabit procurement for Hampshire, and we expect to award the contract in June this year. We have paused the applications for vouchers to avoid doubling up on public subsidy, but we are happy to look into any specific cases that my hon. Friend wishes to raise via Building Digital UK.

[Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

T2. During the last Horizon Europe funding round, researchers, scientists and universities in London received nearly £2 billion, but the Tories have overseen two years of uncertainty, delay and broken promises, harming researchers and businesses in my constituency and across the capital. When will the Secretary of State do what Labour would do, and secure association to the world’s biggest science funding programme?

--- Later in debate ---

[Miriam Cates (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Con)]

A year ago, the Department announced that Penistone had been chosen for the UK’s first trial to deliver high-speed broadband through water pipes. The fibre in the water project, which is happening in partnership with Yorkshire Water, is of huge interest to my constituents as it promises the opportunity for rural areas to access high-speed broadband without the cost and inconvenience of major infrastructure works. Will the Minister update me on the progress of the project and tell me how quickly my constituents might see the benefits?

[Julia Lopez]

Fibre in the water has been a fantastic and innovative project. We expect to complete the research in May, and I hope to be able to update my hon. Friend, who has been doing fantastic work on this.

[Mr Speaker]

Before we come to Prime Minister’s questions, I point out that live subtitles and the British Sign Language interpretation of proceedings are available to watch on parliamentlive.tv.

Installation of Telecommunications Infrastructure

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Wednesday 15th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Julia Lopez)]

I thank the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson) for securing this important debate, and for raising her residents’ concerns so articulately and with such passion. I understand her concerns about the installation of digital infrastructure in her constituency.

As the right hon. Lady will be aware, the Government have big digital ambitions for the people we represent, because we think great connectivity is absolutely fundamental to people’s life chances and we do not want to oversee a digital divide. However, we are also extremely mindful that communities have concerns about new infrastructure. We want to ensure that those concerns are heard and considered, and that we get the balance right. I entirely appreciate the sentiment behind the proposals in her private Member’s Bill and in her petition, but I am not entirely convinced that they are the right way forward. We are trying to reduce some of the bureaucracy and difficulties that have hampered roll-out and given us difficulties in the quality of our digital infrastructure up until now.

As I mentioned, reliable fast digital connectivity is vital for the prosperity of this country, local businesses and families. We want to ensure that consumers and businesses throughout the UK can get the services they need. I accept that the right hon. Lady acknowledged that pressing need and said that her constituents do as well. We believe that great digital infrastructure will enable our constituents to access healthcare, stay in touch with friends and relatives, and educate their children. It will help our businesses to innovate and stay globally competitive.

I will set out the progress made due to the reforms cited by the right hon. Lady. In 2018, only 6% of UK premises had access to gigabit-capable broadband. I am very proud to say that that figure has now increased to 74%, demonstrating how our actions have significantly improved broadband coverage. Poor broadband coverage during the pandemic would have meant considerably more disruption and difficulty for our economy, and for how our society had to run during that extremely difficult period. I am therefore very proud of that achievement and thank everybody who contributed to it. However, as the House knows, our ambition is for that figure to be above 85% by 2025, with gigabit broadband available nationwide by 2030. I should also say that I am inundated with requests from Members across the UK for the roll-out to go faster and further, filling in not spots and so on.

If that ambitious target is to be achieved, infrastructure deployment needs to continue at pace. We know it is crucial that the legislative framework supports the companies who are working hard to help achieve that target. At the same time, I certainly understand the concerns of communities when new poles are installed. The legislation rightly recognises the impact of network deployment on communities and the environment. Most telecoms infrastructure, including poles and new masts, benefits from permitted development rights, as the right hon. Lady acknowledged. They allow certain types of development to go ahead without the need for a specific planning application. However, that is subject to some specific exclusions. Permitted development rights are also applicable to other forms of infrastructure development, such as transport and utilities. At a time when connectivity plays an increasingly vital role in our lives, it would be wrong for the planning regime for telecoms to be stricter than it is for other infrastructure. That will only create barriers to deployment.

[Ronnie Cowan]

In my constituency, when operators put up a new pole they put a wee plaque on it that says, “If you have an objection, phone this number.” They clearly know they are upsetting local communities in the first place. Would it not be better for them to engage with the local community before erecting the poles?

[Julia Lopez]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. There are ways operators can do that. Some operators are much more mindful of that and the need for community consent. Others are not acting according to some of the codes of practice installed to try to help deal with the kinds of issues he raises.

[Sara Britcliffe]

The Minister has come to the crux of the argument. Some providers are doing that, but others are not and that is a problem. There is nothing to say that providers have to engage with a local community before they do it. Yes, there are some very good providers who will do it, but I have experienced others that do not.

[Julia Lopez]

My hon. Friend makes a good point.

[Jim Shannon]

In Northern Ireland we welcome the broadband roll-out, which is going exceptionally well due to financial support from the Government. To be helpful and constructive, one of the things that we have done back home, which may help the hon. Lady and others to find a way forward, is that in almost every case the construction firms that are putting in the broadband have put the telecommunications underground, thereby doing away with the visual impact. That is a solution that works across my constituency, where broadband roll-out is quite significant.

[Julia Lopez]

The hon. Gentleman is right to acknowledge just how much progress has been made in Northern Ireland, where there is some of the best connectivity in the United Kingdom. I am proud that we have been able to make that investment, which is making a massive difference to his constituents. I will come to some of the points raised in interventions, which I hope will help hon. Members.

The electronic communications code provides the framework for operators to install infrastructure. Together with accompanying regulations, it sets out the conditions of how infrastructure must be installed in practice. The regulations require operators to share apparatus if possible and to install only the apparatus that they need. Although some of the issues are not entirely unique to Kingston upon Hull, they are particularly problematic there because of the monopolistic position of KCOM that the right hon. Lady raised. There is also a requirement to install lines underground, as has been raised, unless certain conditions apply.

The regulations set out how operators should engage with local planning authorities. They must notify them at least 28 days before installing a pole, to give them time to consider imposing any additional conditions to the proposed installation. They should engage with communities and other interested parties to engage with communities and other interested parties at that stage.

The final legal provision I would like to highlight is that the electronic communication code sets out who can object to and seek the removal of apparatus, and the circumstances in which they can do that. As well as the legal provisions, I draw the right hon. Lady’s attention to the cabinet siting and pole siting code of practice, which was agreed following the changes to legislation that gave greater permitted development rights and best practice for those installations. It encourages operators to site apparatus responsibly and engage proactively with local authorities and communities. I encourage all operators to adhere to that code of practice.

We have big digital ambitions, but we are making sure that we also support local communities along the way. Last year we made it easier for fixed line operators to share the use of existing poles—again, I think that there are some specific issues with KCOM—and underground ducts via provisions in the Product Security and Telecommunications Infrastructure Act 2022. That should help to reduce the need for new infrastructure, including poles, in future. We will carefully monitor the impact of the Act’s provisions as they start to have a real-world effect, as it gained Royal Assent only in December 2022 so it is still fairly early days.

My officials talk to Ofcom regularly about the electronic communications code and other telecoms issues. We are looking closely at how to ensure that all operators are aware of and adhering to their responsibilities under the code. We are also looking at whether steps are needed to educate local authorities on their role in the process, including the ability to escalate issues to Ofcom when needed. I note what the right hon. Lady said about her meeting with Ofcom. I will look into some of the issues that she raised about its stated ability to get further involved.

In addition to that engagement with Ofcom, officials in my Department have held meetings with representatives from KCOM and Connexin, to discuss some of the concerns raised with us about deployment in Hull. In addition, they have met with the local council to understand the issue from its perspective. We cannot interfere with individual commercial arrangements, but I have highlighted the obligations of all operators when deploying poles. Ofcom also regularly reviews the market, and last conducted a review into the Hull telecoms market in October 2021. I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for highlighting her concerns. I will ensure that they are relayed to Ofcom. I am pleased to have this chance to update her on the measures already in place, but there may be more that should be done in this area.

Let me turn to the right hon. Lady’s specific proposal to introduce a further layer of bureaucracy into the planning process. We are concerned that that would delay the roll-out of much better infrastructure and could deprive communities and businesses of the connectivity that they need. It will also increase deployment costs, which makes it not cost-effective for operators to deploy in some areas. As I mentioned, that risks creating a digital divide, which we are keen to avoid.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I am not sure about the suggestion that either we get this rolled out, or we don’t because people have to be consulted. There could be a short period of consultation and engagement with local communities, but that would not mean that there would not be a roll-out of broadband, which we all want to see. This is not an either-or situation; we can both consult and see broadband rolled out.

[Julia Lopez]

I am not sure that is the case. We have consulted very closely, trying to make deployment easier, faster and more straightforward. I have concerns that adding an additional layer to the process would slow deployment. We have given the issue much consideration, particularly during the passage of the Product Security and Telecommunications Infrastructure Act 2022. I hope that legislation will encourage much more sharing of the infrastructure, so we do not have to see more Bills. Sharing infrastructure is a particular issue in Hull and I am happy to look into that in greater detail.

We believe that the current framework makes adequate provision for planning considerations, while allowing prospective deployment to happen at pace, promoting competition, increasing consumer choice and, crucially, helping to keep prices low.

I thank the right hon. Lady for bringing forward the debate and raising awareness of digital connectivity. I can assure her and the House that it is a Government priority, but I will also take away some of the legitimate concerns raised about specific operators during the debate. I will take up that conversation with Ofcom and see whether further work is needed in that regard.

Question put and agreed to.

BBC: Government Role in Impartiality

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Tuesday 14th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op)Urgent Question]

To ask the Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport if she will make a statement on the Government’s role in upholding the impartiality of the BBC.

[The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Julia Lopez)]

The BBC is a world-class broadcaster, a creative engine and a cultural institution producing some of the best television and radio in the world. The impartiality of the BBC, as a publicly funded broadcaster, goes to the heart of the contract between the corporation and all the licence fee payers whom it serves. That is why the royal charter, which is the constitutional basis of the BBC—along with the underpinning framework agreement—enshrines the need for the BBC to be impartial in both its mission and its public purposes.

The BBC’s mission and public purposes, as set out in the charter, require it to act in the public interest, serving all audiences through the provision of impartial, high-quality and distinctive output and services which inform, educate and entertain, helping people to understand and engage with the world around them. The BBC’s first public purpose is to provide duly accurate and impartial news and information to help people to understand and engage with the world around them. It must also represent and serve the diverse communities of all the United Kingdom’s nations and regions. Both the charter and the framework agreement also explicitly guarantee the independence of the BBC. As such, the Government have no say in the BBC’s operational or editorial day-to-day decisions or staffing matters, including as they relate to the application of the requirement for impartiality.

The Government stand fully behind the requirements of the royal charter. We are clear that the BBC must truly reflect the nation and guard its impartiality in all of its output. The BBC’s director-general has repeatedly said that the corporation’s impartiality is a priority for him and must be protected. We welcome that the BBC accepted the findings and recommendations of the Serota review and is committed to reform through its 10-point impartiality and editorial standards action plan. It is Ofcom, established by the Government as the independent regulator of the BBC in 2017, that is responsible for holding broadcasters including the BBC to account on the impartiality of their news and current affairs coverage, against the broadcasting code under the Communications Act 2003.

In November last year, Ofcom published its annual review of the BBC. It found the BBC’s impartiality to be a key area of concern among audiences and one where they consistently rate BBC news less favourably for trust and accuracy. Ofcom stated that addressing audience perceptions on this matter is challenging, and the regulator recognises that this is a complex area. It will continue to monitor the performance of the BBC and has urged the BBC not to lose momentum in its efforts to address this issue. It remains a priority for the Government to ensure that Ofcom delivers an effective and proportionate regulatory framework that holds the BBC to account while maintaining its creative freedom and operational independence.

In May 2022, the Government launched the mid-term review. This is a new mechanism established by the current charter, focusing on the governance and regulatory arrangements for the BBC, given the reforms that were introduced when the charter was granted. One area of focus in the MTR is impartiality, and it will assess the efficacy of the governance mechanisms and Ofcom’s regulation in ensuring that the BBC meets the high standards that licence fee payers expect of it. It is also an important milestone in our road map for BBC reform, and work is well under way. The charter specifies that the review must take place between 2022 and 2024, and we will publish our findings and conclusions in due course.

The BBC is respected globally. It reaches hundreds of millions of people across the world every week. No other country in the world has anything quite like it. We have been clear that the BBC must place a firm emphasis on accuracy, impartiality and diversity of opinion. It can never be the BBC’s role to judge, or appear to judge, the diverse values of the people from across the country it serves. In the era of fake news, public service broadcasting and a free press have never been more important, and the BBC has been and should be a beacon that sets standards to which others can aspire.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I call the shadow Secretary of State.

--- Later in debate ---

[Julia Lopez]

I thank the hon. Lady for her spirited questions. I have watched her valiant attempts to kick this political football across the weekend and into this week. As Politico notes, we are now on Lineker day 8. She shouts about a political campaign to undermine the BBC that is akin to Putin’s Russia. She professes that she is the shield trying to protect the BBC from political interference, but all the while demanding that the PM gets more stuck in and telling the BBC that it is in the wrong. Forgive the bewildered licence fee payer for wondering why W1A and SW1A are still focusing on this individual case—one that the Government have consistently made clear is for the BBC to resolve internally, which we note it has now done.

As the hon. Lady knows full well from the Secretary of State’s reply to her correspondence over the weekend, our Department regularly engages with the BBC on a range of issues. At no time have any of us as Ministers sought to influence the BBC’s decision on this case in any way. The events of last week are rightly a matter for the corporation’s determination, and we as a Government do not seek to interfere. I have not added, and do not intend to add, my views on this specific case in response to this urgent question. In response to assertions yesterday that he bowed to political pressure from the Government, the BBC director-general, Tim Davie, said:

“That is a convenient narrative. It’s not true.”

The hon. Lady has sought to make the BBC chairman, Richard Sharp, the ultimate arbiter of such matters. In fact, the BBC charter is clear that it is the director- general, as editor-in-chief of the BBC, not the chairman of the board, who has final responsibility for individual decisions on the BBC’s editorial matters. On the issue of Mr Sharp, she will be aware that previous Governments have appointed people to senior positions in the BBC who have declared political activity. That is not prohibited under the rules. Once appointed, however, all board members are required to adhere to the code of conduct for public body board members. She will know that there are separate independent inquiries into Mr Sharp’s appointment process, and they must be left to conclude. When it comes to the timetable of that, the Government are also awaiting the outcome, and it is right for the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments and the investigator that it has appointed to determine the timetable for that process, not the Government.

The hon. Lady said that the Tory Government had long wanted to undermine the BBC. Not true. This is an organisation with a near-guaranteed licence fee income of £3.8 billion per annum until the next charter review in 2027. We back the BBC. We want it to survive as a thriving cultural, creative and democratic engine for many years to come. The Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office announced just this week that it is giving an extra £20 million to support the BBC World Service over two years, building on the additional support that we gave it for its Ukraine and Russia reporting operations.

The social compact that underpins the BBC’s funding arrangement depends fundamentally on the broadcaster maintaining the trust and confidence of viewers. The BBC’s currency in a world of misinformation and “shout the loudest” public discourse is truth, impartiality, accuracy and editorial integrity. It remains our priority as a Government to work with the regulator, Ofcom, to deliver an effective and proportionate framework that holds the BBC to account in its duties, including to impartiality. In May 2020 we launched the mid-term review, a key focus of which was impartiality, and we will assess Ofcom’s regulation in ensuring that the BBC meets the high standards that licence fee payers expect of it.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I call the acting Chair of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee.

[Damian Green (Ashford) (Con)]

Last weekend was embarrassingly terrible for the BBC, and anyone who cares about the future of the BBC will want this furore to die down and to move on as fast as possible. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is the responsibility of the BBC management to produce a set of clear and enforceable guidelines on the behaviour of presenters, whether freelance or staff? Does she also agree that, in return, presenters whose reputations and bank balances are enhanced by regular appearances on popular BBC shows also owe a reciprocal responsibility to the BBC, which may include some self-restraint in what they say and do in public?

[Julia Lopez]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that important question. I agree that anybody who cares about the BBC will want this furore to die down so that it can focus on how to ensure that it operates to the terms that create confidence in the public. He asked about the BBC guidelines, and I agree that they are fundamentally important to how the BBC organises its staffing. One of the key recommendations of the Serota review was that the guidelines on how presenters operate are fundamental and should be applied no matter the seniority, profile or role of the employee. This is something that must be revisited by the BBC as an organisation in the light of this furore.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I call the SNP spokesperson.

[John Nicolson (Ochil and South Perthshire) (SNP)]

On Saturday, BBC bosses said that Gary Lineker would have to apologise before being allowed back on the air. Yesterday, the BBC director-general apologised to Gary Lineker, who will now go back on the air without compromising. What a mess. A humiliating retreat for BBC bosses.

Normally, the BBC chair would hit the airwaves to steady nerves but, of course, the chair is Richard Sharp, a Tory donor who facilitated an £800,000 loan to the Prime Minister who then appointed him. Mr Sharp appears to be in hiding. I know many Conservative Members loathe the BBC and public service broadcasting, but does the Minister agree that her Conservative colleagues have overplayed their hand by trying to influence BBC decision making? Moreover, does she agree that we need a new system for plum public service appointments, with no more party donors, either Tory or Labour, appointed in future?

[Julia Lopez]

I make it clear that Ministers have not sought to intervene or interfere in how this process has been handled by the BBC. I will not be commenting on the Lineker case specifically, because I want to maintain the independence of the BBC and the ability of the director-general to make decisions based on how he wishes to organise his institution.

On Mr Sharp, as I said to the hon. Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell), the BBC charter makes it clear that the director-general, as editor-in-chief of the BBC—and not the chairman of the board—has final responsibility for issues such as the ones we saw over the weekend.

[Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con)]

Mindful that the Minister does not want to comment on self-indulgent, out-of-touch, insensitive, avaricious, smug, arrogant football pundits, and in mind, too, of the BBC’s important role as a national institution, made special by both its charter and the mode of its funding, will she affirm that impartiality is critical to the BBC’s continuing role? The BBC is respected throughout the world for its impartiality—the World Service springs to mind. When that impartiality is compromised by anyone in a privileged position, that flaw undermines the BBC we want to support.

[Julia Lopez]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is the mode of the BBC’s funding that makes it different in how it must respond to such cases. Trust and impartiality are fundamental to the social compact that underpins the licence fee. If that trust and impartiality are seen to be broken by people in the organisation, it is for the organisation to take that into account and to take action accordingly.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

The Minister says Ministers are not getting involved, but the Leader of the House, reading from a prepared script at business questions last Thursday, said:

“Labour is borrowing from the Gary Lineker playbook… This country does not need goal-hangers; it needs centre-forwards.”—[Official Report, 9 March 2023; Vol. 729, c. 413.]

That perhaps shows her slight lack of understanding of football, but is not the key point that these guidelines were changed in 2020 specifically because Conservative Members were trying to nobble Gary Lineker? That is why it has been such a disaster this weekend.

[Julia Lopez]

The Leader of the House is entitled to comment on the nature of Mr Lineker’s comments but, as far as I am aware, she applied zero pressure on the BBC to take action in relation to his contract.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

I hope the shadow Secretary of State will reflect on her comparison of this Government to the Putin regime, which is of course engaged in war crimes and the murder of men, women and children in Ukraine. That was beneath her.

I am perfectly content with the BBC’s funding model and output, but one element of Mr Lineker’s statement on Twitter is completely unacceptable. I grew up surrounded by people who had their lives turned on their head by the Nazi regime in Germany, so I hope the Minister will comment on Mr Lineker’s references to 1930s Germany. He can say what he likes about the Illegal Migration Bill, but he should have the decency to apologise for comparing any action of a democratically elected Government in this country to 1930s Germany. It was disgusting.

--- Later in debate ---

[Julia Lopez]

I thank my hon. Friend for setting out how he feels about the comments that were made. I very much appreciate the deep sensitivities of this matter. I also think it was distasteful to compare the Government’s actions, or otherwise, to the Putin regime. That is a disgraceful comparison to make and I think it is way off the mark.

[Rebecca Long Bailey (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)]

The BBC’s decision to take Gary Lineker off the air for his criticism of the Government’s immoral, inhumane and unworkable Illegal Migration Bill justifiably angered both the public and the professional staff working for the corporation, many of whom are in my constituency. Sadly, confidence in BBC management was already at a real low following revelations about the circumstances of Richard Sharp’s appointment as chairman. This week, members of the National Union of Journalists across the BBC in England will be taking strike action in defence of our local radio services. Does the Minister agree that the issues with the BBC are much more fundamental than just how presenters use social media? Will she join me in calling on Richard Sharp to resign so that trust in BBC impartiality can be restored?

[Julia Lopez]

The hon. Lady talks of BBC staff in her constituency. They signed contracts and are aware of the standards to which they must adhere, because impartiality is so fundamental to the organisation, its future success and the trust in which the public hold it. As an organisation, the BBC strives to adhere to those principles, so I suspect there is a conversation happening between staff at every level as to whether consistent standards are being applied to the professional terms to which they all signed up.

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

The way in which the BBC has reacted over the last week or so has been nothing short of appalling. Does the Minister agree that the BBC needs to set clear rules, rather than guidance, on what is expected from its presenters, particularly high-profile presenters—erring on the side of caution rather than encouraging political commentary —and that the BBC should not be pushed around by privileged and overpaid elites?

[Julia Lopez]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his comments. The Serota review was designed to do just that: to make sure there are very clear guidelines to which BBC employees sign up, and to make sure people undertake impartiality training when they take on roles within the BBC. The Serota review also talks about the importance of making sure those standards apply no matter a person’s seniority, profile or role. There are questions for the BBC to answer on the application of those standards in this case.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

The only disaster this weekend has been for the BBC, given the despicable way in which it handled the Gary Lineker affair and then caved in to this man and his friends who rallied around him. Does the Minister agree that the BBC has shown once again that, because of its inherent bias, it is impossible for it to be impartial? It is now time we no longer forced people to finance the BBC through the licence fee, especially when the BBC takes 1,000 people a week, 70% of them women, to court for refusing to pay this poll tax on propaganda.

--- Later in debate ---

[Julia Lopez]

The right hon. Gentleman is right to highlight the importance of impartiality to the trust in which licence fee payers hold the organisation, and its importance to the future of the licence fee, not least because fewer people are now paying the licence fee—we are concerned the public are losing support for the licence fee. Fundamentally, the way in which people consume television is changing very rapidly, and we need to make sure the BBC has a sustainable future.

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

I support the right to free speech and the BBC’s public service broadcasting principles. I think we need a public service broadcaster, and I support a licence fee to pay for it, but full impartiality is required for a public service broadcaster to be trusted. Whatever people say about Gary Lineker’s comments, whether they are right or wrong, they cannot argue that his comments are not political, as yesterday’s debate showed. Does my hon. Friend agree the BBC needs to ensure that it has strict rules in place on impartiality, and that it applies those rules evenly? If a person works for the BBC, whether as an employee or as a contractor, they should have to follow the same rules.

[Julia Lopez]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right about the importance of impartiality. The BBC already has a set of rules on that but, in the light of this incident, it is also looking at how social media is governed and making sure that the organisation is adhering to those principles and that the guidance is working as it should.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

Whatever review is undertaken now, Richard Sharp is currently the chair of the BBC. The specifications say that one of his responsibilities is the “delivery of impartiality” at the corporation. Does the Minister have any confidence that, in his current situation, Richard Sharp can properly undertake that role?

[Julia Lopez]

Richard Sharp was appointed in a transparent way. There are obviously concerns about—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. There is a bit too much shouting as soon as the Minister or others say anything. Can we just listen to the answers?

[Julia Lopez]

From my Department’s perspective, the appointment was undertaken to the letter. There have since been events that have come to light that we need to investigate, and those things are being investigated. On Mr Sharp’s ability to do the role, as I have mentioned, it is possible to hold political views and be appointed to that role. That has been the case over many years and across different flavours of Government. The question is whether that person carries out their role in an apolitical and impartial way, and I believe there is currently a BBC review as to whether those duties are being carried out in that way.

[Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

Impartiality is public purpose No. 1 of the royal charter, which I helped to negotiate in 2016. Given that guidelines simply do not work, may I suggest the setting up of an independent adjudicating body for impartiality, alongside Ofcom, given that the BBC receives £5 billion a year, largely through the licence taxpayer, and that last year out of the 430,000 complaints made to the BBC only 325 were dealt with and only 14 fully upheld?

[Julia Lopez]

I thank my hon. Friend for not only his question, but the way in which he has engaged with me over the mid-term review. I know he has a number of ideas as to how the governance and regulations of the BBC need to be changed. I look forward to engaging with him further on the mid-term review. He is right that it is looking at the complaints system, but also at editorial standards and impartiality, and I hope that we can continue to engage on these matters.

[Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab)]

The BBC has some brilliant journalists and staff, who work hard to make it the world’s leading public service broadcaster, but the decision to remove Gary Lineker from the air at the weekend just demonstrates its fear of this Government; it bowed to their pressure. However, the real focus should be on the BBC chair, who is a Tory donor, arranged for a loan for the former Prime Minister and is a friend of the current Prime Minister. Surely he has eroded trust and confidence in the BBC. Could the Minister say whether she agrees and whether his position is tenable?

[Julia Lopez]

I believe I have already answered that question, but I reiterate that no pressure was applied on the BBC by Ministers and that having political links to a party does not preclude someone from taking on a role within the BBC—it is about how they dispense their obligations within that role.

[Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)]

What role do the Government have in ensuring that the BBC delivers for the audiences it serves? Will the Minister join me please in pressing the BBC to look again at its shocking decision to close the 99-year-old choir, the BBC Singers?

[Julia Lopez]

On some of the musical operations the BBC currently funds, I know that this matter is causing a lot of alarm and concern. As my hon. Friend will appreciate, it is not for me to set out to the BBC how it should spend licence fee payers’ money, but it does have certain duties upon it to deliver cultural good. The matter of the BBC Singers is still open to staff consultation and I encourage staff who are concerned about these changes to fully engage with that consultation.

[Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

I trust, or I hope, that I am seen to be fair-minded in this place. First, the Minister has said that she will not instruct Richard Sharp to go, but does she accept that his continuation, his lingering on, as chair does nothing for the reputation of the BBC, and that he should reflect on his position and consider accordingly? Secondly, although she claims that the process of his appointment was transparent, many of us in this place, including many Conservative Members, feel that it was very far from that indeed and should be looked into.

[Julia Lopez]

The process, from a DCMS perspective, was fully transparent. We followed the process to the letter and that process was subsequently approved in a hearing by the Select Committee on Digital, Culture, Media and Sport. Things have subsequently come to light that are under investigation, and I am afraid that I cannot comment on that investigation.

[Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con)]

I understand that an independent expert has been appointed by the BBC to review social media guidance, particularly in relation to freelancers. Does the Minister agree that it is important that those who are paid vast sums by the taxpayer and are widely perceived to be BBC presenters do not avoid paying taxes and disregard impartiality guidelines by hiding behind freelancer status? Does she also agree that until that review is completed, somebody such as Gary Lineker must continue to follow the existing guidelines, which means refraining from politics? Monitoring of his social media account over the past 24 hours, as he retweets The New European and Alastair Campbell, would make interesting reading.

[Julia Lopez]

It is incredibly important that the BBC is left to conduct its social media review in a way that allows it to bring clarity, particularly on this question of freelancers versus people who are paid employees. As the highest paid employee, Mr Lineker will, understandably, be held to account for his views by the licence fee payer, and that is difficult to ignore as an issue relevant to whether the BBC is impartial.

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

The BBC prepared a statement to be read out on “Question Time” last week in the event that the assault by Stanley Johnson on his wife was raised by one of the panellists. That statement said that Stanley Johnson had not commented but that a friend had said that the incident did take place

“but it was a one-off”.

The BBC had time to consider that statement; it was a pre-prepared statement put in front of the chair of the panel. What on earth was in their heads when they agreed that? Who benefited most from it—was it the Conservative party or those women who have suffered domestic violence?

[Julia Lopez]

Without knowing the full details of the statement—[Interruption.] I am afraid that I do not know the statement to which the hon. Gentleman refers. The only commentary I have seen on this matter was on whether Fiona Bruce had behaved professionally, which, from my reading of the situation, she had.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

On duties of impartiality, it is important that BBC presenters, who have such a wide audience, make statements that are correct. Whatever people’s views on Gary Lineker, he did, in a tweet last December, in effect praise a Hamas terrorist who had been involved in the murder of two Jewish pilgrims to a tomb. He did not apologise when that was pointed out and he still has not done so. The key point here is: they can say what they like, as long as they get it right, and if they are wrong, they should apologise.

[Julia Lopez]

I thank my hon. Friend for raising that point. I was not aware of that case, but some of these questions will, we hope, be resolved by the social media review that the BBC is undertaking. We hope they will give clarity about the rules to which its presenters must adhere.

[Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) (Lab)]

The BBC chairman, Richard Sharp, donated £400,000 to the Conservatives and helped the former Prime Minister on an £800,000 loan. The BBC director-general, Tim Davie, is a former Conservative candidate, and the BBC board includes Robbie Gibb, a former aide to a Conservative Prime Minister. The BBC has allowed presenters such as Jeremy Clarkson to say that he wanted to shoot striking workers, Andrew Neil to be chairman of the Conservative magazine The Spectator and Alan Sugar to encourage people to vote for the Conservatives, but it has not allowed Gary Lineker to criticise inhumane Conservative policy. Is it not time for not only the resignations of the BBC chairman and director-general, but BBC reform, with the Government no longer appointing its leadership?

[Julia Lopez]

I simply repeat that, as the hon. Lady will be aware, previous Governments have appointed to senior positions in the BBC people who have declared political activity. That does not preclude a person taking a position; it is not prohibited under the rules. Once appointed, all board members are required to adhere to the code of conduct, and as far as I am aware, Mr Sharp has done so.

[Simon Jupp (East Devon) (Con)]

When working as a BBC journalist in the south-west, I was acutely aware of the rules on the use of social media and I saw swift action being taken by BBC management when others forgot their duty of impartiality. These rules are critically important for a broadcaster that relies on the licence fee, and they must be crystal clear for everyone. Does my hon. Friend agree that the BBC must now be given space to conduct its review of social media guidelines?

[Julia Lopez]

I agree that the BBC should be given space to carry out the review and to set out clear guidelines. The Serota review made it crystal clear that seniority, profile or role do not exempt anyone from having the rules applied to them, and I think that is something that needs to be teased out in this review.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

The behaviour of the Tories in the past week has been shameful and reprehensible. In fact, they remind me of the black-headed gulls harassing that puffin in David Attenborough’s “Wild Isles”, but it is just not working. Fifty per cent. of Britons have a positive view of Gary Lineker compared with 30% who do not, whereas only 25% of UK voters would vote for the Conservative party if there was an election tomorrow. I know the Minister will never become the host of “Match of the Day”—nor will any of her Back-Bench colleagues—but who does she think would win if Gary Lineker went head to head with her in an election tomorrow?

[Julia Lopez]

I think I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question, but I am not entirely sure what his point was. I have no response beyond saying that there was no attempt to interfere politically with the way in which Gary Lineker’s case was handled.

[Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con)]

I worked for the BBC for seven years, both as a member of staff and as a freelancer. Impartiality was absolutely core to me professionally and personally. Nobody knew how I voted or what I thought politically. I accept that that was before the era of social media, but what that means is that impartiality is even more needed now because fake news is rife in our society. People do not just get their opinions from what they see on the news; they form their judgments and knowledge based on a wide variety of people and personalities. That means that this is a very significant issue. Having said all that, does my hon. Friend agree that ensuring and guaranteeing impartiality must be the responsibility of the broadcasters themselves, and that it is incumbent on BBC senior management now to resolve this case as quickly as they can and to make sure that BBC guidelines are fit for purpose and for the era in which we all live?

[Julia Lopez]

I thank my hon. Friend for his commentary, especially given his experience as a former BBC employee. His contributions in this regard are always valuable. He is absolutely right: impartiality is core to the purpose of the BBC and fundamental to the trust in which it is held; it underpins the social compact on which the licence fee rests. I am sure that that is fundamentally respected by the vast majority of BBC staff, many of whom will be asking why the rules that apply to them are not always applied consistently to everyone in the organisation.

[Sir Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

British broadcasting is the best in the world. Considering we are a relatively small country, we do phenomenally well in managing to sell our product to the rest of the world. Broadcasting is a mixed economy, and to me, having the BBC funded by licence fee payers, providing something for everybody because it is paid for by everybody, is absolutely essential to ensuring that we maintain that pre-eminence in the world.

Yes, trust is at the heart of it. I too used to work for the BBC. I worked quite closely with a former Conservative chairman of the BBC, Sir Christopher Bland. A very fine man, he would never have allowed this moment to arrive, because he would have known that if he had expressed any political opinions personally, it would have undermined the position of the BBC; and if he had failed to reveal something about his relationship to the Government when he was appointed by a Conservative Government, that would have undermined the BBC. I am absolutely sure that if Sir Christopher Bland had been in the situation that Richard Sharp is in today, he would have resigned by now, because he knew that the BBC was more important than him.

My real worry is that I understand that the Prime Minister has now said that he wants the review into Richard Sharp’s appointment, which the Minister has referred to several times today, to be kicked into the long grass. That is my understanding. Can the Minister tell us when the review will come to a conclusion? At the moment, Richard Sharp remaining at the BBC is bringing the whole of the BBC into disrepute.

[Julia Lopez]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for sharing his experience as a former BBC employee. He is absolutely right that in a world of fake news, trust is the BBC’s currency, and one that we should protect. As I mentioned, the FCDO has given additional funding for some of the BBC’s important operations around the world. He is also right to say that people should leave their political opinions at the door when they seek to engage. As far as I am aware, Mr Sharp has not sought to be a politically active person on the board, but as I said, having political opinions and involvement do not preclude an individual being appointed to the board. The hon. Gentleman talks about the Prime Minister trying to delay the process. That is not true. The process is not in the gift of the Prime Minister. We await the timetable as the hon. Gentleman does.

[Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con)]

The self-inflicted chaos of the last few days and the BBC’s apparent unwillingness to enforce its own impartiality rules have made it a laughing stock. It is clear that it is now overpaid sports presenters, rather than executives, who are truly calling the shots. Many of my constituents have long regarded the BBC licence fee as a regressive, decades-old and out-of-date tax. Is it not time that we had a grown-up conversation about its future?

[Julia Lopez]

My hon. Friend raises questions about the future of the licence fee. We will examine these questions in advance of the next charter, in 2027. As I mentioned, it is not just a question whether the licence fee still has support; it is a question whether it is sustainable, as the way we watch media changes fundamentally. We need to make sure the BBC can keep up and maintain the consent of those who watch its services.

[Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab)]

For several months, many Putney journalist residents have been contacting me about the erosion of the BBC’s impartiality by of the merger of BBC World News and BBC News, which is being soft-launched this month. It will be mainly a world news channel, cutting UK news and Government scrutiny by over 80 hours a week. Is this a commercial decision or a political one? Will the Minister say whether there has been indirect or direct pressure on the BBC to reduce its BBC UK news coverage?

--- Later in debate ---

[Julia Lopez]

The notion that the Government have instructed the BBC to reduce its news content is pretty wide of the mark. How the BBC organises its services is a matter for the BBC. What we care about is that services are delivered impartially and to a very high quality. As I say, it is not for us to determine.

[Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP)]

I have to say, I did not see the revolution starting with Gary Lineker and “Match of the Day”, but I am absolutely here for it. Major respect to Gary Lineker and those at the BBC who have stood up to what most of us, including the dogs on the street, can see is a grossly inhuman policy that shames us all. Does the Minister agree that it is rank hypocrisy to have a go at Gary Lineker when we have BBC broadcasters like Tam Cowan, who put out a reel of women injuring themselves on International Women’s Day, going unchecked? There is clearly no level playing field.

[Julia Lopez]

Whether there is a level playing field between different employees of the BBC is a matter for the BBC to determine.

[Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

The BBC is losing connection with the licence fee payer because the Government chose to compromise its independence with the appointment of Richard Sharp, but on the Minister’s watch they have also slashed the BBC World Service and halved BBC local radio, forcing staff out on strike tomorrow. In addition, over the weekend we saw a surreal situation and chaos over sport being taken off air just because someone dared to speak truth to power. What steps will she take to ensure that the public’s priorities are restored at the BBC and that freedom of speech is never dumbed down?

[Julia Lopez]

I have to challenge the hon. Lady: we have not slashed services at the BBC. The BBC has a guaranteed income over the next few years of £3.8 billion a year. She seems to be suggesting that we should have had a different financial settlement for the BBC at a time of tremendous financial pressure on households. We were not willing to do that.

London Zoo Lease

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Tuesday 14th March 2023 Westminster Hall

[The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Julia Lopez)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dame Caroline. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) for securing the debate on the important topic of London Zoo and its lease. I should like to please him by ending this debate by saying yes. However, I can only say yes in principle, and I want to make sure the Government works with ZSL to that end. We are alive to its concerns and want to make sure that we can deliver on them. It is a matter of finding the right legislative vehicle, notwithstanding my hon. Friend’s upcoming private Member’s Bill.

As my hon. Friend notes, the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport acts as the landlord for the site occupied by London Zoo in Regent’s Park on behalf of the Crown. While the policy area is led by my expert colleague Lord Parkinson and I answer on his behalf, as the newly minted Tourism Minister, I also have my own interest in seeing the zoo succeed. It was wonderful to hear how it contributes £24 million to the local economy every year.

The zoo’s current lease was recently renewed for another 60 years, taking it to 2081. I hope that gives hon. Members comfort. However, I understand that London Zoo is looking to extend the length of that lease to have a secure future for the long-term investment it seeks, and continue to develop and make the most of a historic and treasured site. The change, as other hon. Members have noted, would bring the zoo in line with other similar organisations that have leases on Crown Estate land, including the Royal Botanic Gardens at Kew. We agree that increasing the length of the lease would have a significant impact on the zoo’s long-term sustainability and help it continue its tremendous work to educate and inspire zoo visitors and conduct vital conservation work for many years to come. I have enjoyed hearing hon. Members’ stories about their memories and experiences of London Zoo. It is a much-loved national institution and I am among many of my fellow citizens, having visited the zoo several times. I think about canal boat holidays where we moored on Regent’s canal next to the wonderful aviary, taking many day trips and being part of the keeper-for-a-day experience when I met Rocky, the rockhopper penguin. I want to make sure that my children have the same experiences and enjoyment for years to come.

I know that the question of the lease is especially relevant now because of the significant impact of the covid pandemic on the zoo, which relies on visitors for most of its income. Officials in my Department are in regular contact with ZSL and are committed to exploring ways in which we can amend the primary legislation to extend the maximum term of the lease in the very near future. We recognise the immense value to the nation of ensuring that future. London Zoo is an important and unique part of our capital’s culture and heritage offer. It is not only a significant tourist attraction for visitors from across the country and the world, but the world’s oldest scientific zoo and a world-leading force in wildlife conservation. We firmly believe that it is an asset worth protecting and championing.

As other Members have noted, it was opened in 1828 by the Zoological Society of London. When the zoo opened, it was purely for scientific research; eminent scientists of the day, including Charles Darwin, used it for study purposes. The zoo subsequently opened to the public in 1847. Since that opening, the zoo has achieved many world firsts, including the first reptile house, the first public aquarium, the first insect house and the first children’s zoo.

As well as being of historic significance due to the pioneering nature of the zoo, many of those assets are of notable architectural significance. The zoo’s grounds and its animal enclosure in Regent’s Park were originally laid out by architect Decimus Burton. Since then, many leading architects have contributed to the zoo’s built environment, creating a wonderful collection of buildings that includes two grade I, and eight grade II/II* listed structures. Because of advances in our understanding of animal welfare, many of those structures are no longer suitable or used for their original purposes. London Zoo is working very hard to reimagine those spaces, bringing them back to new life in innovative and sustainable ways.

One notable example is the magnificent Snowdon Aviary, which has been a feature of the north London skyline since 1965. It is a feat of engineering inspired by the movement of birds, and has recently been transformed into a state of the art walk-through enclosure for Colobus monkeys—nicknamed the high-flying monkeys because of their impressive leaps from treetop to treetop. That project was made possible with the help of over £4 million of funding from the National Lottery Heritage Fund.

In addition to its unique built heritage, London Zoo is part of the Zoological Society of London, which is a global conservation charity that is home to nearly 20,000 animals. It undertakes crucial conservation work at London Zoo and its partner zoo in Whipsnade, as well as at over 70 locations across the world, caring for and breeding endangered species and promoting participation and knowledge of conservation to the wider public. Alongside that world-leading conservation work, the zoo, and the park in which it is based, are important and popular visitor destinations. My hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Nickie Aiken) made a compelling case for not just London Zoo’s importance to tourism but the importance of all the wonderful attractions in her constituency.

[James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)]

The Minister is making an excellent speech, and I agree with the direction of travel today. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) for bringing forward this excellent debate and his Bill. I have a strange intervention to make. My grandfather worked for many years at London Zoo. When he retired, there was a policy in force where the next animal to be born in situ after retirement would be named after that individual. I am proud to report that my grandfather was followed by a giraffe called Robbie—my grandfather was Albert Roberts. I would be interested to understand if that scheme still exists today; could the Minister find out and report back? It would be great to know where Robbie is, if he is still around and if he is in good health.

[Julia Lopez]

I think that is the most tremendous intervention I will ever take. While I cannot confirm or deny Robbie’s continued existence, I suspect he has sired many children, and there are many giraffe babies with Robbie’s genes. I am sure that somebody from ZSL will be able to answer that question for my hon. Friend. If he needs any help, I would be happy to make inquiries.

The zoo itself is the capital’s 10th most visited attraction, and contributes £24 million to the economy each year locally, as my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East said. In 2022, London Zoo saw 1.8 million visitors, inspiring adults and children alike with a much greater appreciation for wildlife and nature. To build on that success, and open up the zoo to an even wider audience, this year ZSL has introduced a wonderful community access scheme to help families with lower incomes access the zoo for only £3 a ticket. That scheme is part funded by a grant from the National Lottery Heritage Fund. I was interested to hear about the experiences of the hon. Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck) with the education facilities as the local MP. The queues for the zoo during the recent half-term are testament to how well that kind of scheme is received. I understand that the scheme saw 50,000 people on income support visit the zoo during half term. London Zoo is therefore considering how to build on that scheme, taking it forward in the long term so that everybody can access its inspiring zoos.

The commitment to accessibility does not stop there. The zoo also runs audio-described tours, sign language tours and early morning openings aimed at autistic and neurodiverse visitors. Over 80,000 school students visit London Zoo each year, learning about wildlife and conservation and taking part in workshops, on subjects including climate change and plastic pollution. All of those initiatives serve to improve access for everybody, across society, to visit and learn more about the natural world.

Looking forward, in 2028 London Zoo will celebrate 200 years of being open, and I am sure I am not alone in wishing it success in the next 200 years. There are ambitious plans to modernise the zoo by redeveloping its animal spaces to create naturalistic, multi-species zones; I am sure the way in which the zoo is approaching the important issue of conservation means that its future is secure.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East for bringing the House’s attention to the issue of the lease. We firmly believe that London Zoo is an asset that is worth protecting and championing. As I said, Lord Parkinson leads on policy in this area and I am sure he will be happy to meet in order to discuss the specific issue of the lease, as well as the question of a legislative vehicle through which the extension of that lease might be delivered. I thank everybody for contributing to the debate.

Draft Treasure (Designation) (Amendment) Order 2023 Draft Treasure Act 1996: Code of Practice (3rd Revision)

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Monday 13th March 2023 General Committees

[The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Julia Lopez)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Treasure (Designation) (Amendment) Order 2023.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to consider the draft Treasure Act 1996: Code of Practice (3rd Revision).

[Julia Lopez]

I am pleased to be speaking to this order, which was laid before the House in draft on 20 February, and the code, which was laid in draft on 23 February. I suspect that this may be the most interesting statutory instrument that I have ever laid and ever will. The order and revised code are intended to support the aim of the Treasure Act 1996 to preserve important and significant finds for the benefit of our nation. The order designates a new class of treasure based on the significance of a find, and exempts finds that currently also fall under the legal processes of the Church of England. The code has been revised to make it easier to understand and use, and includes guidance on the new class of treasure and exemption.

The Treasure Act replaced the common law of treasure trove in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The current definition of treasure broadly captures only those objects that are made of silver or gold and more than 300 years old when found, as well as hoards of prehistoric base metal objects. Coroners then decide whether an object meets the definition of treasure, and the finder of an item of potential treasure has to report it within 14 days. If the object is found to be treasure, it belongs to the Crown unless an heir of the original owner demonstrates their claim to it.

[John Howell (Henley) (Con)]

My hon. Friend said that the measures apply to the finding of metal objects. For most of our history and pre-history we have been a stone-bearing culture. Can we not include significant stone objects?

[Julia Lopez]

I thank my hon. Friend. That is something that we have considered as part of this process. We have looked carefully at the question of capacity and scope, and while we believe that this is the most appropriate and proportionate next step in treasure regulations, the Department will continue to consider the issue.

Treasure is made available to museums to acquire for public benefit. If a museum acquires a find, it funds a discretionary reward for the finder and landowner. The amount and division of the reward are decided by the Secretary of State, advised by the Treasure Valuation Committee. That process is expertly delivered by our partners in the British Museum, Amgueddfa Cymru— the National Museum Wales—and National Museums Northern Ireland. In England and Wales, the portable antiquities scheme, which records archaeological objects found by members of the public, plays a key role in facilitating the reporting of finds and their acquisition by museums.

The Act has been very successful. More than 17,500 finds have been reported since 1996, over 95% of which were made by metal detectorists. An estimated 6,000 have been acquired by over 200 museums across England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Those include outstanding finds such as the Corrard torc in Northern Ireland and the Staffordshire hoard in England. When a museum acquires a find, it means that it is available for the public to see and admire, but beyond that it educates people about their own heritage. By giving museums the first chance to acquire archaeological discoveries, the Treasure Act has a fundamentally important role in preserving our past.

However, there have been times when the Act has not been able to help museums to secure important finds. Discoveries that do not meet the current definition of treasure, such as individual base metal objects, may be sold by the finder at auction. Museums are now competing with private buyers or dealers, with a high risk of being outbid. Even if they are successful they will have to pay additional costs such as premiums. For example, the Crosby Garrett helmet, a unique base-metal Roman find that did not meet the definition of treasure, as subsequently sold on the open market. Despite the great efforts of museums to raise funds, they were ultimately outbid.

Another object at risk of being lost to the public is the bronze birrus Britannicus, a Roman figure that provides a singular insight into Romano-British life and one of the highlights of Chelmsford Museum’s collection. The museum was able to acquire it only when it was sold overseas and the export deferral system stopped it. However, we should not need to rely on that system to protect important discoveries, particularly as it comes into play only if an overseas buyer happens to purchase the object. The change we are debating will ensure that that does not happen and that museums will get the first right to acquire the most significant finds.

The order designates a new class of treasure based on significance. For the first time, the most important base metal finds, gold and silver finds that are between 200 and 300 years old and single gold coins, all of which are currently outside the definition of treasure, can now be considered to be treasure. Such finds will be caught by the definition only if they meet the specific criteria in the order that are aimed at identifying objects of outstanding historic, cultural and archaeological importance.

[John Howell]

My hon. Friend has described a set of rules for treasure that are based on financial value. The cultural value of these assets is more important, so why can we not have a definition based on cultural rather than financial value?

[Julia Lopez]

I appreciate my hon. Friend’s intervention. This policy area is led by my departmental colleague Lord Parkinson. I understand that the point my hon. Friend made has been considered, but it was balanced against the implementation challenges and the system’s capacity to deal with such questions. I should be happy to facilitate further discussion on the matter if that would be helpful to my hon. Friend.

The criteria have been carefully designed to ensure that the new class is limited to finds of exceptional national, regional or local significance. We consider that to be a high bar. The order owes its origins to a wide range of sources. We took into account the responses to the 2019 consultation on the Treasure Act, many of which recommended a significance-based definition. The Heyworth Heritage research report, which was commissioned by my Department, provided detailed, pragmatic advice on the implications of the new class. We also worked with sector experts such as the treasure registry at the British Museum and colleagues at Museum Wales and National Museums NI, whose practical experience of treasure was invaluable.

We are introducing another change in the order. The Treasure Act removed the common-law requirement that for a find to be considered treasure, there had to be some evidence that it had been hidden with an intention by the owner to return to recover it. That brought into the process objects associated with human burials, including those on consecrated land, which also fall under the Church of England’s statutory process for managing moveable objects. This overlapping jurisdiction complicates both the Church of England’s legal process and treasure legal processes.

The order therefore seeks to remove the confusion around Church of England finds by exempting them from the treasure process, as the Government undertook to do during the passage of the Act. We have worked with the Church of England to define the scope of the exemption, which we hope will avoid conflicts arising between the treasure process and the ecclesiastical legal system for managing moveable objects.

Alongside the order, we are also debating the associated statutory code of practice, which provides essential guidance and principles for the administration and operation of the treasure process. The current code is out of date, does not reflect current administrative practices and, naturally, does not include information on the proposed changes to be introduced by the order.

Revisions to the code introduce changes to the process to ensure that it is more efficient and transparent for all parties involved. The changes are the result of an extensive public consultation, to which there were more than 1,400 responses, representing the full range of interested parties including museums, metal detectorists, archaeologists and landowners. They provided evidence and feedback on the process that have enabled us to make the changes.

We have introduced specific deadlines for all parties in the treasure process to improve timeliness, and we have included more information on the individual administration processes in England, Wales and Northern Ireland and clearer information on rewards. The language of the code has been updated to make it easier for all users to understand their responsibilities under the Treasure Act.

The changes aim to make the treasure process more efficient, but that is obviously not an end in itself. Beyond that, the intention is that a clear and understandable process will encourage museums to decide to acquire treasure, satisfy finders that decisions on their finds will be made within a reasonable time, and ensure that the public will benefit from increased access to significant finds. I commend the changes to the House and would like to open these matters to debate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Julia Lopez]

I thank hon. Members for the opportunity to debate the order and the code. This is a fascinating area of cultural protection legislation. I am sincerely grateful to the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington for agreeing that the changes will improve how we take care of our heritage in England, Wales and Northern Ireland and ensure that the most important finds can be saved for all our benefit.

My hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) recognised that the changes are long overdue. I am glad to deliver them. I welcome his detailed and considered input; he has studied archaeology in his academic career and also for his contributions as a Member of this House. He highlighted the public appetite to uncover more of our own history. Active metal detectorists are now very much in the ascendency. Ahead of this debate, one such metal detectorist, who is a close friend, sent me some pictures to set out how some of the finds that are now posted on Facebook are not currently in scope. We are losing those precious objects for the nation, so I know that the changes are welcomed by a large number in that community.

Extensive research commissioned and published by my Department demonstrates that introducing the high bar for significance may lead to around 100 to 140 new discoveries being made available to museums each year, as other hon. Members have said. In answer to hon. Members, we will keep this under review. All types of objects have the potential to be archaeologically or historically significant. At the moment, the new definition will apply only to artefacts that are at least partly metal. We are taking that approach so that we can measure the impact and effectiveness of the change. That is already a major shift in the emphasis of the Act. Research, funding and long-term preparation of stakeholders are required for further expansion. I assure hon. Members that we want to explore options for broadening the definition to include other types of objects that are culturally significant, such as stone, sculpture and ceramics.

As I have discussed with officials, treasure cases are taking up to six years to determine value, so we are mindful of not wanting to put additional pressure on the system.

As I mentioned, this is not a policy area on which I lead, but I am happy to put concerned Members in touch with the lead Minister, Lord Parkinson. I will also relay personally some of the concerns expressed in Committee about the next steps. I am sure that he will be happy to look at that and at the question of the rolling date, which was raised in the debate.

Finders will be under a duty to report finds when they have reason to believe that finds may be treasure, because of their expertise or because they receive advice—for example, from fellow detectorists, a dealer, a finds liaison officer or a curator—that a find may be sufficiently significant to be considered treasure. We recognise that the change will lead to more objects going through the treasure process. Those that deliver it, as the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington said, will need extra support to do so. We will provide that extra support.

We have increased financial support for the treasure registry at the British Museum and the portable antiquities scheme, which in England and Wales acts as a gateway to the treasure process. We have also invested in a new digital treasure system, which we hope will make it easier to record and track treasure cases, but that is in the early stages of being developed. I hope that people will find it to be an exciting innovation in the area, modernising the whole treasure process to improve transparency and efficiency.

I will also work with our delivery partners, including the treasure registry, to provide training and guidance to support those who are integral to implementing the change, including finders, coroners, finds liaison officers and curators. We hope that that will help everyone to understand their legal and administrative responsibilities.

We have introduced the change only for objects that are partly or wholly metal. As I said, we recognise that that leaves out ceramics and stone, which is something that we will monitor closely as we look at how the changes take effect. We want to work closely with experts to explore options on expanding the definition.

We believe that the change is needed now to ensure that we can look after, for future generations, the objects that tell our shared national and local history. I look forward to seeing the first object to be declared under this new class going on display in our tremendous museums. I also look forward to more people engaging with and learning about their heritage. On the Church of England point, I believe that was taken so that there was not double legislation for particular objects. Again, however, I am happy to put my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham in touch with Lord Parkinson to discuss the matter further. I look forward to new knowledge coming to light and changing our understanding of our glorious past.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the Committee has considered the draft Treasure (Designation) (Amendment) Order 2023.

draft treasure act 1996: code of practice (3rd Revision)

Resolved,

That the Committee has considered the draft Treasure Act 1996: Code of Practice (3rd Revision).—(Julia Lopez.)

Oral Answers to Questions

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Thursday 9th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

7. What discussions she has had with music industry representatives on the impact of increases in the cost of living on musicians.

[The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Julia Lopez)]

Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Ministers regularly engage with music industry representatives from across the live music and recorded music sectors. I met representatives from Live to hear directly about the challenges facing musicians. I look forward to meeting the Music Venue Trust shortly, to hear more from the grassroots music sector on the cost of living pressures.

[Pete Wishart]

I am sure the Minister will want to join me in congratulating Mae Muller on being selected as the UK’s representative at Eurovision in Liverpool.

Surely the Minister acknowledges that the creative sector has probably been the most heavily impacted sector throughout this cost of living crisis, and that musicians have probably been the most impacted within that sector. Earnings for recordings are next to zero, Europe is effectively closed to them, musicians who want to travel to the US face visa problems, and studios and rehearsal spaces are at great risk because of sky-high energy bills. The charity Help Musicians has found that 90% of musicians—the lifeblood of the music sector—are worried about how they are going to pay their next food bill, and half are thinking about leaving the industry. Does the Minister believe that this is the worst possible time to be an aspiring musician, and what is she going to do to rectify the situation and support our musicians?

[Julia Lopez]

As a musician himself, the hon. Gentleman is a tremendous champion of the music industry, and I appreciate all the work he does. He has raised a series of points. On an individual level, the Government have put forward a substantial package to help people through the cost of living crisis. That is an extension of the cultural recovery fund. We also have the Arts Council England fund for supporting grassroots live music. He highlighted issues about US visas, which I am very concerned about and on which we are engaging with US counterparts. I encourage him to get the industry to engage with that consultation, and I am happy to engage with him on some of the issues he raises.

[Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)]

Many musicians are self-employed and lose out on cost of living payments, particularly early on in their careers, because of the operation of the minimum income floor. They have variable incomes early on, which was raised on Monday with Department for Work and Pensions Ministers. Will the Minister and her DCMS colleagues give their support to meeting representatives of self-employed musicians, to find a workable way through and to make sure that they are not unfairly penalised by how they build their careers in their early stages?

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)]

T3. The Theakston crime writing festival launches its 20th anniversary programme later this month, and the festival itself will take place in July. It brings people to Harrogate from across the country and across the world. Has my right hon. and learned Friend made an assessment of the role of arts festivals in driving the visitor economy, including international visitors?

[The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Julia Lopez)]

I thank my hon. Friend for championing a fantastic festival in his constituency and congratulate the organisers on their 20th anniversary. VisitBritain has found that 3% of trips in the UK are made to attend a festival, which equates to more than £1.4 billion a year in spend. That is making a tremendous difference to communities such as the one he represents.

[Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op)]

T4. I am sure that the Secretary of State will be aware of the tragic crush during the O2 Brixton Academy concert on 15 December. Rebecca Ikumelo and Gaby Hutchinson sadly lost their lives, and I am sure that the whole House will join me in passing on our condolences to their families. Three separate investigations have been launched into the criminal, licensing and security aspects, but there is no single authority looking at what happened. I have written to the Secretary of State and her predecessor. Will she meet me to discuss the Government’s role in getting full answers for the victims’ families and ensuring the safety of similar venues nationally?

[Julia Lopez]

I thank the hon. Lady for her question. What happened in her constituency was an absolute tragedy and I pass my condolences on to the people affected. We have received her letter, and I am terribly sorry that it has not yet received a response. I was made aware of that only last week. I am asking for this to be looked into, because I appreciate that she has highlighted things that she sees as gaps in the system, but, as she knows, the Met is also investigating this. I will look very carefully to see whether they highlight issues that the Government themselves need to consider.

[Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con)]

It was encouraging to see the news this week that Amazon Prime video is taking steps to adopt the British Board of Film Classification ratings. However, this makes the decision of Disney+ to continue to disregard UK best practice even more disappointing. Do the Government agree that it makes it far harder for parents to properly regulate their children’s viewing when age ratings are unfamiliar?

[Julia Lopez]

I know that my hon. Friend has done a lot of work on supporting parents and children in transparency in this area. Something that we want to do in the media Bill is to regulate video on demand in the same way that we do with broadcast. We continue to view the BBFC age ratings as best practice, and I too welcome the news this week about Amazon taking on those ratings.

[Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) (Lab)]

T6.   The leisure sector faces severe challenges coming out of covid and seeing energy bills increasing by 300%. Leisure centres in my constituency have contacted me to ask why they are excluded from the Government’s energy and trade intensive industries scheme. Can the Minister tell me why publicly owned pools and centres have been left off the list of sectors eligible for vital support, and does he acknowledge that closures of not-for-profit facilities are inevitable unless something is done?

--- Later in debate ---

[Julia Lopez]

I thank my hon. Friend for championing this role and for all the work that he does on science, technology, engineering and maths, which has such an important overlap with what is going on in the creative industries. We have a creative sector vision coming up, and I am also pleased to highlight that his council, Basildon, has put forward a fantastic bid for a creative centre for screen and immersive tech, and we will be announcing soon whether that has been successful.

[Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Ind)]

T7. What plans does the Secretary of State have to undertake a rigorous research project on the positive societal benefits of community boxing clubs, such as those across my constituency?