Laser Misuse (Vehicles) Bill [Lords]

John Hayes Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons & Programme motion: House of Commons
Wednesday 18th April 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con)]

The shadow Secretary of State was untypically churlish, and I can only attribute that to the fact that since I left the Front Bench he has become more bombastic—I think he is missing me. He is well aware— indeed, in his final remarks he acknowledged this—that this is a Bill that any decent Government would introduce. As he said, it was the subject of considerable discussion when that earlier piece of proposed legislation was introduced and there has been a broad measure of support across the House about the need for such a measure.

The use of lasers for malevolent purposes has grown, as the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald) described. These devices were virtually unknown until the early 2000s; in 2003, fewer than half a dozen cases were reported. As he said, however, by last year over 1,000 cases were reported in various ways and forms. The need for legislation is proven simply on the basis that we know that these things can be used by those with malevolent intent to do damage and that they may well get access to a device that can be bought for as little as £1 on the internet and then go about their vile business.

The bringing down of a plane is obviously one of the principal fears, but, as the Bill now recognises, there are others, too—other transport modes are vulnerable. Someone with one of these laser pens could direct it into the face of a driver of a heavy goods vehicle or at a train driver from a bridge, so it is right that the Bill addresses all the risks associated with the misuse of these devices.

As has been said, the Bill encourages the identification of such malevolence, introduces tougher penalties and makes it easier for prosecutions to take place. There is an argument for extending the powers of the police still further by extending stop-and-search to, for example, people loitering on the edge of an airport or at a railway station with the clear intention of doing harm. Perhaps the Minister will deal with that when she sums up the debate.

Burke said:

“Early and provident fear is the mother of safety.”

It is right that we should be cautious and fearful, but it is also right that we should be prepared, ready to deal with any threat to public safety. These pens can present such a threat; we know that from what all the authorities report to us. The Bill is pertinent, prescient and it deserves the support of the whole House. I was proud to be—

[Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)]

rose—

[Mr Hayes]

I can tell that my right hon. Friend does not want me to conclude quite so promptly, and on that basis it would be ungenerous not to give way and so extend my peroration a little further.

[Sir Greg Knight]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way and join him in praising the Government for introducing this measure, but will he include himself in the congratulations, as he was an excellent Transport Minister and had a large part to play in this matter coming before us before, but unfortunately, because of the election, the Bill did not proceed into law?

[Mr Hayes]

My right hon. Friend is very generous and, of course, absolutely right in all that he just said, and I was just waiting for him to say it; I acknowledge that praise and thank him sincerely for what he said. Yes, I was involved in the outset of this. The shadow Secretary of State and I rubbed along very well together when I was on the Front Bench—and we did some good work together, too—but I think it is a bit rich to say that we would not have thought of this if it was not for the Opposition. We had been discussing and planning this, considering it and plotting the right way forward, for a considerable time, and I have absolute faith in the Secretary of State and my successor as Minister to take this matter forward with the same kind of diligence and concentrated effort that my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Sir Greg Knight) very generously attributed to me.

--- Later in debate ---

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

In answer to the point made by the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald), that this measure has been pushed by the Labour Opposition, I say that success has many fathers and failure has none. I refer him to my private Member’s Bill of 2016, on the regulation of sales, ownership and illegal use of laser pens. The Bill was intended to make

“the sale, ownership and use of portable laser emitting devices with output power of more than 1 milliwatt unlawful in certain circumstances; and for connected purposes.”

At that time, having looked at the matter since 2014, I was grateful to the then Lord Chancellor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), and to my hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr Goodwill), whom it is a pleasure to follow today. During that time, he was a Transport Minister and then a Home Office Minister, and I had discussions with him about addressing the misuse of laser pens. More recently, I have had discussions with Business Ministers, because the issue of the misuse of lasers goes across the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, the Department for Transport and the Ministry of Defence. I have therefore spoken to and worked with a raft of Ministers to find a coherent strategy to address the misuse of laser pens.

[Mr John Hayes]

rose—

[Rehman Chishti]

Before I give way to my right hon. Friend, I want to say that I was also grateful to be able to make representations to him, to which I will refer later.

[Mr Hayes]

My hon. Friend did indeed make those representations, which helped shape Government thinking. To add to the list of Departments involved in this work, I know that he would not want to miss out the Home Office. The Home Office has been engaged in this matter because, sadly, there is the potential for terrorists to take advantage of these simple devices with catastrophic consequences.

[Rehman Chishti]

I am most grateful to my right hon. Friend, who is absolutely right. I did make representations to him and had discussions with Home Office Ministers. Lastly, I want to thank the current Secretary of State for Transport for the time he gave me and for fully taking on board my concerns.

I of course welcome what is proposed in the Bill. When certain individuals are recklessly misusing laser pens, we want to ensure that the legislation is clear so that the police and our Crown Prosecution Service can prosecute them, and the previous legislation, the Air Navigation Order 2009, did not provide that clarity. According to the Civil Aviation Authority’s figures, there were 20 recorded incidents in 2005 and 746 in 2009. In 2010, there were 1,500. In 2011, there were 1,912, and in 2012 the number was 1,571. If we compare that with the number of convictions under article 222 of the Air Navigation Order, we see that there were only 26 convictions from 1,500 recorded incidents in 2010. In 2011, when 1,912 incidents were recorded by the CAA, there were 48 convictions. In 2014, the number of convictions was 18, but there were 1,447 incidents. It is quite clear that the legislation to address, deter and bring to account those responsible for the misuse of lasers—those who take part in this reckless activity—did not have the necessary and desired effect.

The Bill, which will make the offence one of strict liability, meaning that the prosecution is not required to show intention, is absolutely right and proper. We need legislation to have the right deterrent effect, so the punishment needs to be commensurate with the seriousness of the office. Previously there was only a financial penalty, which was not the right way forward. Under the new measures, the penalties have been increased to include both financial penalties and a sentence of up to five years, which most certainly is the right way forward.

A body that has not been referred to yet is the parliamentary advisory council for transport safety, which wrote to me on 19 April 2016. Its letter reads:

“On behalf of the Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety (All-Party Parliamentary Group), I am writing with regards to your recent Private Member’s Bill on the use of laser pens.

Between 2009 and 2015, the Civil Aviation Authority recorded seventeen reports of laser pen attacks affecting air traffic control towers in the UK.”

That point is now being addressed in clause 2—clause 1 addresses the need for clarity in legislation by making the offence one of strict liability—and I am grateful that the Secretary of State has taken on board PACTS’s representations about infrastructure. It is a wonderful organisation and does excellent work to make transport safe for everyone.

Colleagues from across the House have referred to BALPA, which is an absolutely superb organisation. It wrote to me on 14 April 2016 and said:

“On behalf of Britain’s 10,000 airline pilots I am pleased to offer BALPA’s support to you in respect of your bill to regulate the sale, ownership and usage of laser pens.”

The letter goes on to make a point that many people out there will be familiar with, which needs to be made again. It states:

“The issue has become especially important in recent months with the attack on a Virgin Atlantic aircraft which resulted in the First Officer feeling unwell and having to return to base.”

We saw the reports in the media at the time. Any one of us could have been travelling on that plane, and we have citizens who use planes on a daily basis to travel between different parts of the world or internally within the United Kingdom.

For a long time, the legislation was not fit to address this menace, and it is right and proper that we see support coming from the Scottish National party, from Labour and from the Conservative party, all working together. At the end of the day, we all have a fundamental duty to protect our citizens. Safety in transport is absolutely vital, and the Bill helps to address that. On that point, I thank BALPA and our pilots for what they do. They are exposed to risks, but they still do a brilliant job. I cannot read out BALPA’s letter in full, but I am more than happy to share it with colleagues.

I am also grateful to London City Airport, which wrote to me on 18 October 2017 in support of the proposals to address the misuse of laser pens and with its own suggestions. One additional point that it raised was as follows:

“Another solution is to create a licensing system where an importer, retailer or consumer must obtain a licence especially for high-powered laser pointers. This will allow the Government to maintain a register of sellers and users. The licence can include a criteria relating to training or insurance, thus improving the users’ awareness of the safe use of laser pointers.”

Although this is not in the Bill, I am pleased that, following my representations to the Minister for Digital and the Creative Industries and other colleagues, in January the Government announced new measures to tackle the sale of unsafe laser pointers. My 2016 private Member’s Bill would have addressed the sale of laser pens over a certain output.

First, I welcome the Government’s announcement in January—no doubt the Minister will comment further on it—that they will strengthen safeguards to stop high-powered lasers entering the country, which is absolutely right and proper. As the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown) said, certain laser pointers of exceptionally high power have no legitimate purpose but are easily accessible in the United Kingdom and on the internet.

Secondly, the Government announced additional support to local authorities, ports and border teams to stop high-powered laser pointers entering the United Kingdom. Thirdly, they announced that they would work with manufacturers and retailers to improve laser pointer labelling. The Government have also looked at better policing of laser pointer sales by working with online sellers such as eBay. The problem is the same as with the purchasing of knives on the internet. We have to regulate the purchasing of laser pointers online.

Finally, the Government announced awareness raising of the risks associated with laser pointers, particularly among children, given that many do not know the dangers. We need to get the legislation right and, linked to that, we need to address the use of certain laser pens.

It would not be fair of me if I were not also to thank Heathrow Airport, which wrote to me on 4 October 2017 in support of my private Member’s Bill. The final paragraph of the letter said:

“We would welcome any improvements to the regulation governing the sale, ownership and use high powered laser pointers, such that only the legitimate sale, ownership and use of such devices is permitted. We would also support any improvements to the Air Navigation Order (2016) which make it easier for the police to enforce the legislation”.

That, to a certain extent, is covered by clause 1.

Finally, I refer back to the representations from London City Airport, and I hope the Minister will take this point forward. When I tried to obtain information on the number of incidents there had been, the difficulty I had in trying to find out the number of convictions under different categories of the Air Navigation Orders is that the Crown Prosecution Service does not keep a record of that. The numbers I gave earlier therefore related to article 222 of the Air Navigation Order 2009. The letter from London City Airport therefore said:

“However, I believe a more informed approach based on better data-sharing between the Metropolitan Police, the Government, CAA and…airports will bring transparency and clarity on the scale of the problem. This will allow the Government to implement solutions accordingly.”

That would ensure that all the different organisations were working together, and it would ensure transparency of the data that was available.

I have been looking at this matter since 2014 and—this is not often mentioned—I would not have been able to get a lot of the data, research and freedom of information requests if not for my brilliant researcher Barry Watts, who no longer works for me after four years in Parliament. He has now gone on to do other things, but the research we have is down to our brilliant researchers. I thank every colleague in Parliament, including some former Ministers who have spoken today, because whenever I met them, they were absolutely brilliant in understanding that very point.

We have talked about issues with regard to airports, aeroplanes, infrastructure and railways, but in 2016 the defence air safety occurrence report recorded 250 laser-related incidents in the UK in the past five years that put our amazing, wonderful military personnel, and their work, in danger. Concerns have been raised across the spectrum, and the Bill is the right way forward, but I also ask the Minister to look at how it works over the coming years. If the Bill needs to be reviewed, and if further measures need to be taken, I ask her to work with the organisations involved to see how things can be further improved.

I thank the Minister and her team for listening and for taking on board the representations that have been made to me.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Ms Nusrat Ghani)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to respond to this debate. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State set out, the Bill is an aspect of the Government’s important role of improving safety throughout the transport network. The Bill may be short, but I am sure we all agree that it is important.

Let me address the points raised by Members. First, I recognise all the work to prepare the Bill and get it to this stage that was undertaken under my right hon. Friend and mentor the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes) when he was a Minister in the Department. He made a valid point about police stop-and-search powers. It is worth noting that the police already have the power to stop and search for laser pointers if they have reasonable grounds to suspect that the pointer is intended to be used to cause injury, because the pointer will meet the definition of an offensive weapon in such circumstances. That covers the more serious instances of laser pointer misuse.

The Government are clear that, when used correctly, the power of stop-and-search is vital in the fight against crime. However, when it is misused, stop-and-search can be counterproductive. The Home Office is conducting a review on achieving greater transparency, community involvement and police accountability in the use of stop-and-search. While that work takes place, it would not be appropriate to consult on extending the power of stop-and-search to cover lasers.

[Mr John Hayes]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her generous remarks. I take her point, and I of course understand why she made it, but perhaps she might make gentle overtures to the Home Office such that it might take this matter into account as part of that wider consideration of stop-and-search. It would be right to do that, given the broad agreement among those in the Chamber during this short debate.

[Ms Ghani]

There is no way that I could stand at the Dispatch Box and contradict my right hon. Friend, given that he spent many months preparing the Bill. No doubt his representations will be noted by the Home Office, and I will raise them with colleagues there personally.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr Goodwill) for his contribution. I was a little nervous when I heard about his piloting skills; I am glad to see him safe and sound in the Chamber. He made valid points about the danger to pilots, air traffic controllers and taxiing aircrafts. He also recognised the work done by the CAA, which provides extra support and guidance for pilots in respect of eye health when they are subject to such attacks.

On the points made by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown) and my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti), the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy has responded following its call for evidence on the market for laser pointers. The Government have committed to take action to improve the frequency and resourcing of enforcement activities at ports and borders, with the aim of improving the safety of the market for laser pointers and increasing enforcement activities against the import of dangerous high-powered laser pointers. We have also committed to provide additional support for enforcement activities around the import of high-powered laser pointers. A grant of around £100,000 is available to local authorities so that they can increase checks and tests.

Draft Renewable Transport Fuels and Greenhouse Gas Emissions Regulations 2018

John Hayes Excerpts

Monday 26th February 2018 General Committees

[Mr John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con)]

It is a delight to serve on this Committee, Ms McDonagh, and to contribute briefly to the consideration of these regulations, which, as the Minister generously reminded the Committee, I was involved with as a Minister at the Department for Transport. The anxiety that he expressed to get this right, which was reflected by the shadow Minister’s words, is why the Government consulted widely and considered this over a considerable time.

It is right that we address emissions from transport—as the shadow Minister said, they are significant—and the principal way of doing so is to move to low or zero-emission vehicles. However, there is a strong case for biofuels, and it is perfectly possible to continue with our ambition to encourage the purchase of low or zero-emission vehicles—electric vehicles being the obvious case in point—while taking a generous view about the contribution that biofuels can make. That is not only because the biofuels industry is, as has already been said, significant in particular places, but because it is increasingly well established and invested.

I want to add only three things, given the broad agreement about those principles. First, it is important that we make this case in a way that has the most powerful resonance. For me, that is about the welfare of people who have to deal with emissions as they go about their daily lives. I spend considerably more time thinking about the air that children breathe, particularly in congested parts of our country—cities and so on—than about the rather more ethereal, remote and distant matters that sometimes dominate in the debate about gases and emissions. It is in those bread-and-butter terms, those fundamental terms—the quality of life that comes from the air that we breathe—that we should have this debate and conduct this argument. When we do so, suddenly people realise just why this matters so much and why the Government—alongside others; the Opposition have been just as forceful—are devoting so much time to these issues.

Secondly, thinking about the detail of the regulations, I was keen that there was a step change and that it took place over time. Indeed, the regulations now reflect just such an approach in respect of the production of biofuels from crops. That was because the industry is geared up to deliver biofuels by certain means and has invested accordingly, and it is important that we do not make a radical change that does irreparable harm to the biofuels industry. That step change will allow the industry to adjust in a practical way. However, it is really important that we look, with ever closer attention, at the production of biofuels from waste. The ability to turn waste into biofuels requires both technology and investment, but the industry is making that. I was able to visit some of the companies concerned and saw how they were taking waste and turning it into fuel. There is nothing more efficacious, because simultaeneously the waste is dealt with and people benefit from that.

We need to do much more of that, but I have to say to the Minister that that will require a really close association between our waste policy and our energy policy. At the heart of that will be the work done by his Department, the Department for Business and Energy—I cannot quite remember what it is called; hon. Members know what I am getting at—and the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government. I am not sure that, historically, that collaboration has been well enough co-ordinated or as effective as it might have been. Waste policy can drive the alternative means of producing biofuel: obtaining it through crops.

With all that in mind, it is important that the Government understand that they can make all this happen only by working in partnership with the people who will deliver it on the ground; working with the biofuels industry and the manufacturers so that we can achieve the objectives of the draft regulations through a close association between what they want to achieve, their commercial interests and the interests of the Government in protecting the welfare of the people. Disraeli said that the Government have no greater purpose than the welfare of the people, and the welfare of the people is at the heart of the draft regulations.

Government can be a force for good, but only really when it is bold enough to know what needs to be done and modest enough to know that it can achieve what can be done only if it works with others. I know that the Minister both embodies—indeed, epitomises—that boldness and personifies that modesty.

[Jesse Norman]

I am grateful to the shadow Minister and my right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings for their useful, important and valuable contributions. I will respond to them in turn.

The shadow Minister raises the questions of whether we lack ambition, whether the target should be increased and whether there should be regular reviews of the cap on crop usage and the like. Let me say a variety of things. There is always a balance involved in legislation of this type, as he will absolutely appreciate. There is a risk to land use and there is a desire to stimulate the use of biofuels from all possible sources. Of course, an attempt is made to take that balance in the right way.

As he will know, this has been the product of—and is reflected in the delay he describes—considerable months of consultation in reaching the draft regulations and the balance that they strike. As he will be aware, the draft regulations have changed, as regards the crop cap; it has gone from being 2% to, as my right hon. Friend said, a stepped process, from 4% to 3% to 2% over time. I have had assurances, as I think has the industry, that given the level of utilisation at the moment, the draft regulations will not act as any kind of constraint on the growth of biofuels well into the next decade. Of course, they are being regularly reviewed, and we can look at that in further detail if such a constraint applies.

On the introduction of E10, I absolutely understand that it is a live and important issue, and my officials continue to work closely with the industry, as the shadow Minister will know. The taskforce did not recommend a mandate. There are conflicting views on these issues, as he will appreciate. It is important that we do not fetter suppliers even further, having done so a little bit in order to support the industry as we have done through the fuel obligation. One lesson from looking at international experience is that it is not merely, in some cases, an argument that there may be value from a mandate, but that the clear projection of information is important. We continue to look closely at that. It would require legislation, which raises a further question about how that consultation would take place and when legislation could be introduced. For all those reasons, we are not minded at the moment to move further in the direction that the shadow Minister described, but it is a matter for continued consultation and discussion.

With regards to the comments of my beloved colleague, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings, he is absolutely right to focus on the people who work most closely with those fuels and who are most directly affected by them. He rightly mentioned the step change that he engineered in the crop cap and pointed to the need for continued co-ordination across Departments. I hope he agrees that that has significantly improved in recent years. Whether on air quality, clean growth, connected and autonomous vehicles or ultra low emission vehicles, we continue to work closely with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government.

[Mr Hayes]

I certainly acknowledge that—our work on air quality is evidence of it—but I am not yet convinced that we have waste right. I am not sure that across national and local government, in co-operation between local authorities or in collaborations between Departments, we are yet far enough advanced to ensure that waste policy ties to what the Minister has very sensibly set out today.

[Jesse Norman]

I take my right hon. Friend’s point, which has landed well with my officials. It is a two-dimensional problem: there is the question of whether Departments are co-operating and the question of how they interact with local authorities. I thank him for that. My officials have taken it on board and we will actively pursue it.

These regulations begin the implementation of a 15-year strategy for renewable transport fuels, which is designed to support investment in sustainable advanced fuels for automotive, aviation, road freight and other sectors; to maximise the industrial opportunities to be gained for the UK; to maintain public confidence in the value of renewable fuels; to provide certainty to UK producers and to the farms that supply them that their existing installed plant capacity for biofuels from crops will be fully utilised; and to continue to support the transformation of wastes into fuel where that gives the greatest economic and environmental benefits. That is no small challenge.

So far, UK suppliers have responded to the challenge by supplying renewable fuels that have increasingly higher greenhouse gas reduction benefits and are sustainable. My Department is confident that suppliers will also respond to the opportunities presented by these regulations.

We recognise that policy in this area is not without controversy and that the gestation period for these regulations has been long, as the shadow Minister mentioned. The proposed changes are not a surprise to industry—how could they be after such a period of time?—and there is broad agreement about the direction that these regulations will set, which emerged from extensive consultation. The debate has been very useful and I thank hon. Members for their contributions.

Question put and agreed to.

High Speed Rail (West Midlands - Crewe) Bill

John Hayes Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons & Allocation of time motion: House of Commons & Carry-over motion: House of Commons & Money resolution: House of Commons & 2nd reading & Allocation of time motion & Carry-over motion & Money resolution
Tuesday 30th January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Rachel Maclean]

My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. We can all encourage employers to be role models and women to speak out. Businesses that value such careers should pay people decent salaries so that they do not all go off to work in the City. That is what this country needs. We need a dynamic economy that works for everyone.

[Mr John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con)]

I was until recently the Minister for the Year of Engineering, and I looked at the possibility of establishing an advisory group to examine exactly the issue my hon. Friend describes: how groups that are under-represented in engineering can get a foothold and, beyond that, a greater share of the opportunities. I wonder whether the current Minister will take that up and perhaps establish such a group, which would be in the spirit of what my hon. Friend suggests.

[Rachel Maclean]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his work. He is a champion of women not only in engineering, but in all other spheres, and I hope that the Minister will take up that suggestion.

Redditch’s small businesses are hoping to take advantage of some of the contracts that are being awarded through HS2, both now and in the future. For example, Arrowvale Electronics makes world-leading equipment and hopes to benefit from the boost that an HS2 contract would provide. I know how hard it is for small businesses to tender for large-scale Government contracts, so I urge the Minister to say what she is doing to ensure that they can get a slice of the pie and benefit the diverse economy that we all want.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Jones]

My hon. Friend makes a very interesting point. It was reasonably hard to see that from the project in development, but the teams I met working in the colleges were absolutely clear that they will be drawing on as much talent as possible, which will obviously mean bringing more women into engineering. We have a huge shortfall in the number of engineers in the UK. Historically, we have failed to draw on as wide a talent base as possible. The more we talk about the matter in this place, the more we follow it through within communities, and the more we offer a series of careers that can deliver high-quality jobs that solve community problems, the more women we will attract into the industry.

[Mr John Hayes]

Cutting-edge strategic decisions always bring with them a certain degree of contention, which is why Governments in democratic polities too rarely make such decisions. They also bring with them opportunity. One thinks of Crossrail. At the beginning, there were doubters, but Crossrail has, without doubt, led to the development of skills of the kind my hon. Friend described, the creation of opportunities, and the seeding of jobs, which have led to us being world beating. The same thing can happen in respect of HS2.

[Andrew Jones]

My right hon. Friend makes an interesting point. I entirely agree with him. For those who have not yet had the opportunity to go to see Crossrail, the opportunity may well occur again as Crossrail has been taking people down to have a look at its sites. What Crossrail has achieved is fantastic. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Redditch will shortly be able to visit one of the HS2 colleges, where she will see just the difference that the project has made.

Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill

John Hayes Excerpts

3rd reading: House of Commons & Programme motion: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Monday 29th January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Jesse Norman]

My right hon. Friend will be aware that one of the purposes of a smart grid is precisely to allow people to recharge their car at the most cost-effective time. I recently had the opportunity to drive a Tesla, and it is extraordinary how the car is continually updated with patches that can reduce its impact on the atmosphere and improve other aspects of driving in a very green way.

[Mr John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con)]

As my hon. Friend knows, the new clause was tabled at my behest, having been prompted by my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset (Sir Oliver Letwin) in Committee. Ruskin said

“when we build, let us think that we build for ever.”

What we build in respect of electric charging points is vital. The Minister will be familiar with the RAC Foundation’s analysis in “Ultra-Low-Emission Vehicle Infrastructure—What Can Be Done”, which shows that, although the number of charging points is growing reasonably quickly, the number of rapid charging points is growing much more slowly. Is it not vital that, in his work to build this infrastructure so that it is fit for purpose, account should be taken of the need for more rapid charging points?

--- Later in debate ---

[Karl Turner]

I very much agree with the hon. Gentleman. There were many suggestions in Committee that we call the charging points Hayes hooks. The former Minister, the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings, was keen for schools and colleges to get involved in some sort of national competition on the design.

[Mr John Hayes]

As I have been mentioned by name, I feel obliged to intervene to thank the hon. Gentleman for his earlier complimentary remarks and to say that I know that the competition is indeed envisaged. One of the last acts that I commissioned in the Department was to sort out the detail of who would judge what and when. I am sure that the Minister will want to enlighten the House on the progress that has been made, what day the competition will begin, when it will end and what the criteria will be.

[Karl Turner]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention. In Committee, we discussed making the charging points as recognisable as telephone boxes. That is essential. I hope that the Minister has taken on board what was said in Committee and appreciates the work that the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings did on the Bill.

It would be eminently sensible for the Government to promote a national network of sustainable charging points for private vehicles. We welcomed the announcement in the Budget of £200 million of public money to be invested in charging infrastructure. Of course, that matched Labour’s manifesto commitment to invest £200 million to support ultra-low emission vehicles.

This Bill was an opportunity to set out a long-term plan for building the infrastructure needed to encourage the uptake of automated and electric vehicles, and it is a little disappointing that it has failed to do so fully. The Bill could have been a major step forward in taking high-emitting vehicles off our roads. We know that air pollution is linked to the premature deaths of around 50,000 people in the UK each year. That is a staggering number and the Government need to do an awful lot more to address that.

Electric and alternatively-fuelled vehicles are key to reducing air pollution and meeting the UK’s climate change objectives. In Committee, the then Minister said:

“It is very important that we monitor closely how charge points are rolled out. We have spoken about workplaces, local authorities, service stations and so on and so forth, but we need to get a clear view about where the concentrations of charge points are and what needs to be done to fill in any gaps that emerge.”––[Official Report, Automated and Electric Vehicles Public Bill Committee, 14 November 2017; c. 186.]

--- Later in debate ---

[Helen Goodman]

That is very interesting. I think local authorities have not taken up that offer in the way people hoped because there are no resources for the upkeep of the charging points.

On Second Reading, I asked whether planning permission for new housing developments should require charging points. I am disappointed that that has not been mentioned by the Minister or in any of the new clauses or amendments. I also sent a rather long letter to the Department, to the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes) who was handling the Bill extremely well. I am also disappointed that I have not had a reply to my letter, as the then Minister told me that he was going to discuss the planning issues with the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government. It is no good Ministers relying on people charging their car at home, because to do so, people must have off-street parking. A third of this country lives in terraced housing or flats without off-street parking, which is why we need charge points along residential roads everywhere.

[Mr Hayes]

I do not want to anticipate my long and fascinating speech except to say that I did initiate discussions and I am confident that my successor will perpetuate them.

[Helen Goodman]

Good. I am very pleased to hear from the right hon. Gentleman, and I look forward to a positive response from the Minister on this issue of planning permission.

To some extent, new clause 3 covers my next point, which is that we need one system not just for paying when we go to the charge point, but for interconnections. When trying to charge up a car at a public point, it is incredibly annoying for a person to find that they have the wrong kind of plug. It is as absurd as if we had an electricity system in which some houses have three-point plugs, some five point plugs, and others two-point plugs. We have gone way beyond that. Although we want to encourage the private sector—when it comes to manufacturing the cars and the great work that Nissan and Toyota do, we are all in favour of it—the infrastructure for charging is a natural monopoly. It is obvious that the Government should be taking control of it. I am also slightly concerned that there has been systematic mis-selling and over-inflation on the range of electric cars.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hayes]

I want to contribute briefly to this debate. I have enjoyed the scrutiny of the Bill over what seems most of my recent life. I have spent more time speaking about automated electric vehicles than I care to count, having shared that endeavour with a number of hon. Members in the Chamber.

The amendments introduced by the Minister are a direct consequence of the scrutiny that we enjoyed in Committee. That Committee, like its predecessor—the Committee that considered the Vehicle Technology and Aviation Bill, which also considered these matters—was conducted in a positive, constructive, collaborative and wholesome way and I believe that the Bill can genuinely be said to have been improved as a result of the endeavours from Members from all parts of the House.

The infrastructure for electric vehicles is one of the critical elements of their gaining wider acceptance. It is not the only one, but it is salient. As has already been said, that requires us to think broadly about how and where people will want to charge. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden) made the very good point that most people will want to do that as close to their home as is conveniently possible and on-street charging is vital. The work with the local authorities, which has been recommended from a number of places in the Chamber, is critical to achieving that. The planning system also needs to recognise it, in respect of new developments. I go further and say that the Government have already taken steps and can take more on local authorities that are laggards—if I can put it that way—about putting into place the necessary measures to bring about on-street charging.

[Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

[Mr Hayes]

I happily give way to my former Parliamentary Private Secretary.

[Neil Parish]

I pay tribute to the great job that my right hon. Friend did as Transport Minister and in his many other ministerial roles.

It is very much the charging points—their accessibility and the ability to charge vehicles quite quickly—that will really encourage people to have electric vehicles. At the moment, only about 1% or 2% of vehicles are electric. We really need the infrastructure if we want that figure to be 25% or 30%. Until we get the infrastructure right, we will not necessarily get everybody to sign up to having an electric car. We have to be absolutely certain to get the infrastructure right.

[Mr Hayes]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who has been not only a student, but a mentor to me as my PPS and as my great friend. He is right, as he often is on this subject. It is right that we build an infrastructure that is accessible. It also needs to be affordable and recognisable. The arguments that have prevailed so far have focused on those points—that the infrastructure must be easily recognised by anyone who wants to charge their vehicle.

[Michelle Donelan]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that another aspect that could hold back the industry is the skills shortage in the science, technology, engineering and maths sector? That is why schemes such as the Year of Engineering are so vital to companies in my constituency and in Wiltshire, such as Dyson and AB Dynamics, which are leaders in the sector.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hayes]

Yes. When we speak of infrastructure, we often think of physical infrastructure. But it is also a matter of human infrastructure, and skills are critical to the success of this industry. I recommend to my hon. Friend the report by the Institute of the Motor Industry that addresses exactly those points. It highlights the accreditation system that it has put in place and recognises that, so far, only a small proportion of the technicians and people who service cars more widely have achieved the necessary competences to work on electric vehicles—of course, autonomous vehicles are yet to come. It will be vital that that understanding and those competences are widely spread. If I might make a point particularly on that, I am anxious that they are not simply owned by large corporate companies. We do not want to see the disappearance of local garages and start-up businesses. The spread of the ability of those who can repair and service these new types of vehicles needs to be sufficient not only to seed those competences in the way I have described, but to make them available to people in rural areas as well as in urban centres. My hon. Friend is absolutely right to draw attention to that human aspect of this technological challenge.

As well as the charge points being recognisable—and I am delighted that the shadow Minister has confirmed that they are going to bear my name, which I expect the Minister will also confirm—I am delighted that there is a determination to ensure that there is some consistency about the charge points. One needs to be able to drive down a road in an electric vehicle and immediately recognise a charging point, as we recognise a telephone box, a pillar box and many other things. And it should be beautiful, by the way.

[Stephen Kerr]

I agree with my right hon. Friend about the importance of recognisability and that a charging point should be a thing of beauty that adds to the landscape of our towns, cities and rural areas. There has again been mention in the Chamber tonight of the competition for a beautiful design that the Government will sponsor. Will my right hon. Friend—and, perhaps, the Minister—comment on whether the design competition will be for a UK design, rather than just an England, or England and Wales, design?

[Mr Hayes]

Well, that would certainly be my wish. It will be for the Minister to confirm or otherwise whether that is the official position. I no longer speak in official terms, but happily endorse the view of my hon. Friend that we should have a UK-wide design and competition. When Gilbert Scott designed the red telephone box, of course he recognised that it was a functional item, as it remains. But he was also determined to make it something of elegance and style—something that, in the words of my hon. Friend, added to the built environment. And so it should be with these charging points.

The third important element of charging points, as well as their accessibility and recognisability, is their affordability. It is absolutely right that we should have a single means by which people can pay. It is preposterous that people might arrive at a charge point, ready to charge their vehicle—perhaps even desperate to do so, if the remarks of the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) hold true—and then find that the means by which they have to pay does not fit their expectation and that they need some card or prepayment system. We need to ensure that all charge points conform to a single means of payment, or at least a number of means of payment that suit every circumstance. What we cannot have is different charge points with different technologies, different modes of payment, and a different look and feel. That would be preposterous and I know that the Government will not want anything preposterous to happen.

[Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way; he is being very generous with his time. As he got the Bill to its current state, did he consider that perhaps we have started the whole basis of the electrification of cars and batteries at the wrong point? The trouble is we are beyond this point already, as we have a Tesla-style battery, a Lexus-style battery and batteries by other manufacturers. Would it not have been more sensible and better if the current network of petrol stations had been places where we could simply change the battery? That could have been done in an instant, or within a minute or two, rather than waiting for this long charge system. I am concerned that the manufacturers have started us off on the wrong basis. Perhaps it is not too late to get us back on track.

[Mr Hayes]

Innovation and change often initially result in a multiplicity of systems. One thinks of the industry that I was once in—the IT industry. It took some while before MS-DOS, and subsequently Windows, emerged. Of course, there are still Apple computers with a different system altogether, but at the birth of the personal computer, all kinds of technologies co-existed. It was a while before standards became certain, adapted and adopted, widely recognised and used. I suspect that the same applies in this area of innovation and change. As the technology beds down, I expect that there will be greater consistency, but the Government must play their part too.

Although I am sure that the market will normalise around a set of standards, the Government can—by what they do both legislatively and in terms of the kind of incentives I mentioned earlier that might be provided to those who are developing charge points such as local authorities—help that process along the way and that will build consumer confidence. Recognisability, affordability and accessibility are critical if people are going to buy electric cars without the uncertainty that the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland described to us. She was a bold early adopter who entered the marketplace with a degree of optimism and hope. I hope that her hope has not been too tarnished by subsequent experience because the trailblazing spirit that she personifies is important if we are to get the momentum we want for this change in the way we drive and what we drive.

I welcome these amendments. As I said at the outset, they reflect sensible scrutiny of important legislation, although of course there is more to be done. In establishing this national infrastructure, I am confident that the same spirit of conciliation, collaboration and co-operation that has characterised our considerations so far will continue.

I begin the end of my remarks where I started—with Ruskin. Ruskin said:

“The training which makes men happiest in themselves also makes them most serviceable to others.”

Further to the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Chippenham (Michelle Donelan), the change that I recommend will not work unless we have people ready to make it work. That requires skills and training that is serviceable to others. It requires building a human infrastructure fit to do the job to make the physical infrastructure as effective as it can be. I know that there will be more consideration of that during the rest of this debate.

In the short time that I have been on the Back Benches, I have learned that one of the virtues is that one does not have to stay for the whole of a debate. To stay longer, in any case, might attract more plaudits, and even I would begin to become embarrassed. In the interests of the whole House, not just my own, I am now going to end this brief contribution, sit a moment longer and then proceed to my dinner, safe in the knowledge that I pass the baton to others still more capable of continuing the debate in the spirit in which it began.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

I call Matt Warman.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Western]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his invitation, and I would certainly be delighted to take him up on it. That is one for the future.

[Mr John Hayes]

I have no desire to prolong the hon. Gentleman’s speech unduly, as the Financial Secretary to the Treasury is waiting for his dinner. However, on the hon. Gentleman’s point about buses and local support for electric vehicles, he will know that the Government have done a great deal to support the provision of low emission vehicles by bus companies. Indeed, workplace charging has also been supported strongly by the Government. Does he agree that perhaps we need just to broadcast that more, so that more people know they can benefit from the support that is available? The Government have done their bit, and I am extremely grateful for the great work that my officials did on that in my time. Does he think it is about more publicity?

[Matt Western]

It is. It is about motivating and encouraging change through consumers.

I would like to move on finally to electric bikes and mobility vehicles. That might seem like a less glamorous or glossy sector of the market, but we have some terrific bike manufacturers in this country. We have Pashley and Moulton, and Brompton here in London. Brompton’s first e-bike is about to roll off the production line. However, our sales of electric bikes are way behind those of other countries. We are something like seventh in Europe, with 5% of its total sales, way behind Austria, Italy, France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany. Germany has 36% of the total sales for Europe.

In 2016, the city of Munich started a subsidy scheme for electro-mobility that includes electric bikes. The subsidy for the purchase price is granted to private companies and non-profit organisations, with a contribution of, say, €500 for electric bikes or €1,000 for electric cargo bikes. In Sweden, there is a 25% Government subsidy for all e-bikes until 2020, which has led to a 50% surge in electric bike adoption in the country. It has been hugely successful in the past 12 months, and that shows what leadership can do to change consumer behaviour, which the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings referred to. The same thing applies to commercial vehicle fleets, whether they be for haulage or local delivery.

I urge the Government to adopt new clause 3, which is simple and straightforward. It puts forward a framework to identify all the vehicle sectors that need to be considered, so that we ensure that they are very much in the front of our minds.

UK Flight Ban: Sharm El Sheikh

John Hayes Excerpts

Wednesday 13th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Transport Legislation and Maritime (Mr John Hayes)]

My hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Mr Lord) and the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) have a long-standing interest in Egypt, and I acknowledge their interest and their concern about this matter. I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate and welcome the opportunity to say more about flights to Sharm El Sheikh.

Hon. Members will know that in addition to being appointed three times as Minister of State in the Department for Transport, I am also a former Security Minister. This is therefore a subject close to my heart, and a matter of profound importance. The security and safety of our citizens is perhaps our most significant duty of all as a Parliament and as a Government. To that end, I know that my hon. Friend and all those who have contributed to the debate would not expect any Government of any persuasion to do anything that in any way compromised the safety and security of UK citizens, whether here in our country or travelling abroad.

The House will know that, on 31 October 2015, following its departure from Sharm El Sheikh international airport to St Petersburg, Metrojet flight 9268 disintegrated above Northern Sinai. As a result, a total of 224 passengers and crew of various nationalities were killed. Following that event, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office returned UK nationals and changed its travel advice. It advised against all but essential travel by air to or from that location. That had the effect of airlines halting all direct air services between the UK and Sharm El Sheikh airport. Flights to the UK from other Egyptian airports, including Cairo, Luxor, Marsa Alam and Hurghada, were unaffected.

Two years on, that advice remains in place, although the Government keep travel advice under constant review. For example, we recently updated the travel advice in Tunisia following the Sousse attack in 2015 and the changed security situation there, albeit in very different circumstances. Daesh claimed responsibility for the Metrojet attack, and the Egyptian and Russian Governments announced that the aircraft was brought down by an act of terrorism, as President Sisi stated in February 2016. The Egyptian authorities’ investigation has not come to any firm conclusion regarding the exact events that preceded the attack, and no perpetrator has been caught.

Both my hon. Friend the Member for Woking and the right hon. Member for East Ham made the point that other countries have taken different decisions about resuming flights, which is true. Most flights to Sharm El Sheikh before the Metrojet crash were from the UK or Russia, however, and it is of course for each country to decide what security requirements they need to protect their citizens—it is not for me to comment on that—but the UK is working closely with the Egyptian Government to assess security at Egyptian airports. I can also say that the UK works with a number of other Governments to look at certain security situations, particularly where there are a large number of UK travellers, and I will say a bit more about the detail of that in the course of my remaining remarks.

Our experts on the ground in Egypt have been working closely with the Egyptian authorities since the Metrojet crash, and it has been acknowledged that the level of security at the airport has improved from where it was before—the right hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend both made that point. However, there is a wider range of security-related reasons, which the House would not expect me to go into in detail here, why we do not yet feel that we should resume flights.

The terrorism typified by this incident blights both Egypt and the United Kingdom, and the recent mosque attack in North Sinai serves as the latest reminder of the deplorable depths to which terrorist groups are willing to stoop in Egypt. The Prime Minister recently expressed her condolences to President Sisi over that attack, as well as her solidarity and support in the face of such a common threat. Egypt has long played a crucial role in fighting terrorism, and we stand resolutely by Egypt in that fight.

Let me be absolutely clear that this Government’s top priority will always be to maintain the safety of British nationals and those flying into the UK, based on all the information we have available to us. The House will know that aviation remains a target for terrorist groups and that the threat is constantly evolving. We must respond accordingly to ensure that the protection of the public against those who would do us harm is as certain as possible. I emphasise that that is about both detection equipment at airports, which is changing and improving all the time, and the protocols in place at airports—training, management and how equipment is deployed. All those things have a profound effect on the safety of an airport, and we are working in all those areas with countries across the world to ensure that they can be their best and do their best.

[Stephen Timms]

The Minister is absolutely right that being vigilant about the wellbeing of UK citizens is the both his first duty and that of the Government. Is he able to shed any light on why the assessment being made by the UK Government is different from the ones being made by other Governments including, it now seems, the Russian Government?

[Mr Hayes]

I made the point briefly a moment ago that the principle source of tourism to Sharm El Sheikh before the crash came from Russia and the United Kingdom. Indeed, it is the United Kingdom and Russia that are yet to resume flights. As I said before, it is not appropriate for me to go into the details of the precise security situation, and the House would not want me to. It is fair to say that, although we acknowledge that significant improvements have been made and we have been working on the ground with the Egyptian authorities, the prevailing situation in Egypt, illustrated a moment ago by reference to the recent atrocity, is difficult. It is clear to us that airports remain a target for terrorists.

Having said that, let me be equally clear that the Government wish to see the resumption of flights to the resort as soon as it is safe to do so. We understand the economic impact—the point has been made forcefully and persuasively by the contributors to the debate—of the absence of flights on the Egyptian economy, and we know that tourism is important to Egypt. Egypt, as I have already said, is an important partner in the fight against terrorism.

In the meantime, UK visitors continue to enjoy the abundant attractions on offer at other resorts and sites throughout Egypt, and I am delighted that more than 226,000 British tourists visited Egypt between January and September 2017, a 31% increase on the same period last year. UK tourists have been worth more than $220 million to the Egyptian economy so far this year, so people are travelling to Egypt in greater numbers. The shock and fear that people understandably felt deterred them from travelling to anywhere in Egypt, and we are pleased that people are returning.

We work closely and productively with the Egyptian authorities. My officials are working with their counterparts on the ground to share their expertise in establishing effective security arrangements, and there has been good progress in improving security at Sharm El Sheikh airport and other Egyptian airports that fly to the UK. My officials have visited and advised all those airports on a regular basis over the past two years. The Government are committed to supporting the Egyptian Government to improve aviation security. We have a common fight against terrorism, and it is therefore our common aim to improve aviation security.

My Department’s global work on aviation security is an important part of the Government’s wider counter-terrorism strategy to keep our citizens safe wherever they are in the world. As we have worked with the Egyptian authorities, we are working with authorities in a number of other places in the areas that I have briefly outlined. It is not only about the provision of good equipment; many other improvements can be made to secure an airport.

With more British experts working side by side with host nations in the most vulnerable locations because we more than doubled our spending on aviation security in the spending review, we can reasonably say that we have delivered on our commitment in the strategic defence and security review.

The Prime Minister led the way last year in pushing for the adoption of the first ever United Nations Security Council resolution on aviation security, which has recently been developed into a global aviation security plan that the Government are strongly supporting. My Department’s enlarged global network of aviation security experts works in partnership with many host states to strengthen the global aviation security system by identifying vulnerabilities in aviation security regimes and developing options to mitigate each vulnerability in order to deliver improvements and maintain quality assurance. This drives up both capacity and capability. As I said earlier, it is not enough just to build capacity; we have to build capability.

[Stephen Timms]

I understand that Russia announced this week that it is lifting its ban on civilian flights. Is there any other airport in the world to which the UK uniquely bans flights? That appears to be the position with Sharm El Sheikh.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hayes]

Russia has not resumed flights, either, so the situation is not quite unique. We have not uniquely continued to maintain the ban on flights. The truth is that each case has to be considered on its particular circumstances and merits. Airport security is complex, for the reasons I have mentioned. We analyse the security situation at airports in a wide range of countries and deploy resource to those countries. We advise and deploy expertise in those places. The circumstances in each of them are different, although there are common themes, of course. It would be too simplistic to say that a formula can simply be rolled out, regardless of the prevailing local circumstances. The threats of course vary from place to place as well, so the context is also the threat, not just the circumstances of the airport itself.

My Department’s capacity development programme aims to deliver long-term sustainable change that will improve airport security, resulting in high-quality security screening. We will continue to work closely with the Egyptian Government on aviation security in Egypt. Our ongoing work includes providing training for Egyptian airport security staff, as well as other advice and support. My Department has also provided additional explosive trace detection capabilities to the Egyptian Government for use by carriers flying to the UK. We have Department for Transport aviation security experts based in Egypt, reflecting the Government’s commitment to supporting the provision of good security there. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport recently met his Egyptian counterpart to discuss aviation security, and high levels of engagement between our two nations continue.

The Government are very grateful to the Egyptian Government for their full co-operation and the impressive efforts they have made to improve aviation security. The UK values its important relationship with Egypt and its commitment to building on our co-operation in supporting the development of Egyptian aviation security. I am sure the House will understand that it is long-standing Government policy not to comment on, or publish, details on security matters. I am therefore limited on what I can say to a greater degree than that, but I look forward to the return of flights to Sharm El Sheikh once the Government can be sure it is safe. I can assure the House that the Government are working hard to facilitate that outcome, which I know we all want to see.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

John Hayes Excerpts

Thursday 30th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab)]

16. If he will ban the use of tyres more than 10 years old on public service vehicles.

[The Minister for Transport Legislation and Maritime (Mr John Hayes)]

The Department for Transport consulted the European tyre manufacturing industry association and its clear advice was that beyond the age of a tyre, its use and maintenance are significant factors in the ageing process.

[Mr Cunningham]

Surveys show that 27% of drivers do not check or maintain their tyres. What is the Minister doing to raise public awareness about this?

[Mr Hayes]

We are acting on exactly that matter. The Department has introduced measures to manage the use of tyres aged 10 years or more on the steering axles of buses and coaches. Written copies of our guidance have been delivered to every single bus and coach operator in Great Britain. The guidance reflects best practice and supplements separate advice on the use of older tyres.

[Maria Eagle]

My Tyres (Buses and Coaches) Bill, which was published this week, is down on the Order Paper for a Second Reading tomorrow. Can the Minister confirm that he and his party will not seek to oppose the legislation?

[Mr Hayes]

The hon. Lady has particular knowledge of this matter. I know that one of her constituents died in an accident relating to a tyre. The hon. Lady came to see the previous Secretary of State, and I know that she has seen the roads Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) about the matter. She is right to take it seriously.

Although I am not going to comment on the question that the hon. Lady asked me—you would not expect me to, Mr Speaker—I will say this to her, and I hope that she will respect how seriously I take the matter. We have issued the new guidance, but I think there is a need for more research, and I am prepared today to commit my Department to engaging in further research with the experts in the industry and others to establish exactly the effect of tyres’ age on safety and security. The safe and secure passage of people is our first priority, and we will do all that is necessary to secure it.

[Mims Davies (Eastleigh) (Con)]

The Tyred campaign was highlighted to me at party conference. As someone who formerly worked in road safety, what I found out was shocking to me, particularly because many of our children travel to school in coaches. I am delighted to hear from the Minister that the Department is undertaking to do more work on the matter. Many visitors to our constituencies come by coach, so can we commit to taking real action to ensure that no more people die in this way?

[Mr Hayes]

Absolutely; I understand the point that my hon. Friend makes, and the tragedy that I mentioned in my previous answer involved a young person. My hon. Friend is right that public safety is an absolute priority, so the Department has liaised closely with the British tyre industry to develop a comprehensive guide to good practice. The guide gave a clear recommendation that older tyres should simply not be used on the front axle. As I have said, I want to do more and go further, which is why I will look at the matter in even greater detail.

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

4. What steps he is taking to maintain the operation of national road infrastructure during the construction of High Speed 2.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alex Burghart (Brentwood and Ongar) (Con)]

8. What steps he is taking to reduce the number of potholes.

[The Minister for Transport Legislation and Maritime (Mr John Hayes)]

The Government are providing local highway authorities in England, outside London, £296 million between 2016 and 2021. That includes an extra £46 million that was announced in the autumn Budget last week. I am sure that local authorities right across the country will welcome their share of funding and put it to good use.

[Alex Burghart]

We have heard some thoughtful remarks about tyre quality on both sides of the House this morning, and road quality is the flip side of that coin. Many of my constituents suffer from pothole-marked roads. In our Conservative manifesto this year we committed to improve the quality of roads and fill potholes. Will my right hon. Friend tell my constituents that we remain committed to that?

[Mr Hayes]

Potholes are a menace; they are a drain on the economy and damage hard-working family cars. That is why the funding that the Government are providing local authorities in England outside London from the pothole action fund is enough to fix nearly 6 million potholes—or, even better, to stop them from forming in the first place. People deserve to see smooth and safe roads as they look back in Ongar.

[Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)]

In 2006, the annual local road maintenance study estimated that it would take nine years to repair every pothole on our local roads. Fourteen years have now passed. How long does the Minister think it acceptable for motorists and cyclists to wait to see the necessary investment coming from the Government to repair potholes on our local roads?

[Mr Hayes]

It is always a mistake for someone to prepare their question before they have heard the previous answer, and if the hon. Gentleman had heard the previous answer he would have asked a different question. Notwithstanding that—[Interruption.] I do not mean to be unkind to the hon. Gentleman; he is right to raise the issue. Potholes are a nightmare, and we have made that absolutely clear. That is why we are putting the money in place to deal with them. There is always more that we can do, and I will take his question as a spur to do still more.

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

Although the A180 suffers from its fair share of potholes, the bigger problem for road users and residents in Healing and Stallingborough is the concrete surface. I urge the Minister to have discussions with Highways England to see how a phased programme to replace the concrete surface could be introduced.

[Mr Hayes]

This is not the first time that my hon. Friend, with typical assiduity and diligence, has raised the issue of that concrete surface—indeed, he has raised it with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. I am inclined to visit my hon. Friend and drive on that road with him to see for myself exactly what is happening. Having done so, I will certainly look again at all we can do to improve that surface and other road surfaces, as the Secretary of State has committed to do. My hon. Friend is right: road surfaces make a difference, and they deserve our close attention. They will certainly get mine.

[Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Con)]

9. What assessment he has made of the role of private sector investment in improving rail services for passengers.

--- Later in debate ---

[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

10. If he will make it his policy to use electronic motorway signage to encourage drivers to have their eyes tested.

[The Minister for Transport Legislation and Maritime (Mr John Hayes)]

Highways England is responsible for operating motorways and major A roads in England. It uses electronic variable message signs primarily to advise drivers of immediate safety issues and to provide journey information for road users. The country has a very good safety record, but improvements can always be made, and drivers can do their bit by regularly ensuring that their eyes are tested and that they are fit to drive.

[David Linden]

I wish you and all hon. Members a very happy St Andrew’s day, Mr Speaker.

Last week, which was road safety week, we had the pleasure of hosting Vision Express and the charity Brake at the House. They explained to Members how important it is to have their eyes tested, which 1.5 million car users have not done. Will the Minister follow the example of the Scottish Government, who ran an electronic motor signage pilot last week, to ensure that road conditions are safer?

[Mr Hayes]

We could do something very practical: we could get the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency to remind drivers of the importance of good eyesight in the letter that it sends to them when their licences are renewed. We will certainly be doing that. As for the issue of road signage, too much signage poses a risk: evidence from Highways England, which consulted road users, suggests that the more of it there is, the less notice people take of it. We need to be careful about just how much signage we put on our roads, and to concentrate on the vital messages that are central to safety and good advice.

[Dan Carden (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)]

11. What recent assessment he has made of trends in rail passenger usage.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for Transport Legislation and Maritime (Mr John Hayes)]

The British road safety statement, published in December 2015, sets out the Government’s priorities for action, including measures to help vulnerable groups to stay safe on roads, extra money to crack down on drug-affected drivers, and tougher penalties for using mobile phones while driving.

[Sir Henry Bellingham]

Is the Minister of State aware that the King’s Lynn guide dogs forum is campaigning hard to highlight the impact of selfish pavement parking on blind and visually impaired people? It also recently took me on a blindfolded walk through the centre of King’s Lynn, which brought home to me the scale of this problem, and I highly recommend that the Minister of State and Secretary of State do such a blindfolded walk with the guide dogs organisations in their constituencies.

[Mr Hayes]

I went on such a walk a few weeks ago in Spalding town centre, and I recommend it to hon. Members; I know many will have done it. It gives an entirely different insight into the struggle that people have getting around town centres when others have inconsiderately parked and there are many obstacles in their way. It also gives a real understanding of how wonderful our guide dogs are. It is important that the Government do their bit. Of course the charitable sector does an immense amount, too. I certainly take my hon. Friend’s remarks seriously. We will look closely at what more can be done, but he can be absolutely certain that I and my colleagues in the Department will be champions of the interests of people who are visually impaired and use guide dogs.

[Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab)]

The Minister will know that one of the biggest obstacles to the take-up of cycling is people’s fears about safety. Has he done an assessment of whether the necessary resources are in place to implement the cycling, walking and investment strategy, and if he has, could he publish it?

[Mr Hayes]

As the hon. Gentleman implies, we do have such a strategy. He is also right that cyclists need the same kind of attention that I mentioned in my previous answer. They can be put into hazardous circumstances by a range of different obstacles that they encounter as they go about their business. The Government are strongly committed to cycling, as I think he knows, but he is right that we must look closely at the hazards cyclists face, and that will be included in the strategy.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)]

14. What progress has been made on the A417 Air Balloon roundabout missing link upgrade.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (SNP)]

18. What recent discussions he has had with the Scottish Government on the uptake of electric vehicles.

[The Minister for Transport Legislation and Maritime (Mr John Hayes)]

I have ongoing discussions with the Scottish Government, as well as all the devolved Administrations, about the uptake of electric vehicles, and the Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill—which I recommend very strongly to the hon. Gentleman—is progressing through Parliament. There is also strong engagement at an official level through the Office for Low Emission Vehicles with all devolved Administrations.

[Stuart C. McDonald]

I thank the Minister for that answer. The Scottish Government aim to establish one of the most comprehensive charging networks in Europe, so we welcome the announcement of £400 million for electric charge points as part of the industrial strategy, but can the Minister confirm what the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy said on the industrial strategy on Monday: that that £400 million will be allocated on a localised needs-based approach and not just one based on population?

[Mr Hayes]

That is a good point. This was considered closely in Committee, and, as the hon. Gentleman will know, the provisions of the Bill allow for the development of more charge points, supported by the announcement of £300 million in the autumn Budget—£200 million for infrastructure and £100 million for the plug-in car grant. However, he is right to suggest that we need to be mindful of the effect in rural areas. I do not want us to end up with certain areas covered by good infrastructure but it being absent elsewhere. I said in Committee, and I repeat here in the House, that we will look at further measures to ensure the even spread of the infrastructure.

[Paul Masterton (East Renfrewshire) (Con)]

More and more people in East Renfrewshire are looking to purchase electric vehicles, but they are put off by the lack of charging points. What steps will the Minister take to ensure that charging point infrastructure is consistent right across the UK?

[Mr Hayes]

There are a number of ways in which we can do that. I have spoken about major retailers, and there are provisions relating to them in the Bill. That will tend to mean that charge points are clustered around major arterial routes, but the good news is that I am working closely with colleagues to make sure that local authorities ensure that there are on-street charging points. I am open to other suggestions about how we might ensure that charge points are spread across the country, and I invite such suggestions from Members right across the House as the Bill makes its progress through Parliament.

[Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP)]

20. What recent discussions he has had with (a) the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency and (b) the Public and Commercial Services union on new components of the driving test to be introduced on 4 December 2017.

[The Minister for Transport Legislation and Maritime (Mr John Hayes)]

Me again! It is almost too much of a good thing, isn’t it? But you can never have too much; you know that, Mr Speaker.

The Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency has agreed proposals to reform the practical car driving test in April. It has maintained a dialogue with the Public and Commercial Services union about the components of the new driving test throughout the development of the proposals between 2015 and the present day.

[Martyn Day]

What plans does the Minister have to meet the workers and unions in the DVSA before 4 December, when more than 2,000 staff will be taking strike action over concerns about the new test? What assurance can he give me that the safety issues in question will be addressed before the test is rolled out?

[Mr Hayes]

Proust said that a

“powerful idea communicates some of its strength to him who challenges it”,

and I hope that the power of my idea will have some resonance with the hon. Gentleman. The truth is that these changes are supported by the driver training and road safety representatives who helped us to develop and trial them. More than 4,500 learner drivers and 860 driving instructors took part in research at 32 locations across Britain. At no stage has anyone said that the changes will not be beneficial, not least among those who took part in that process. We need to press on with the changes, because they will clearly be beneficial, and I hope that the power of that argument has been communicated to the hon. Gentleman.

[Craig Tracey (North Warwickshire) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)]

T5. What assurances can Ministers give to help taxi drivers who buy the new electric taxi before the vehicle excise duty change comes into force?

[The Minister for Transport Legislation and Maritime (Mr John Hayes)]

My hon. Friend is right that that matters to taxi drivers. A legal change is required to allow the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency to identify electric taxis as separate from cars and vans in order to apply the exemption. I wrote to the Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury—I emphasise for the record that he is my former PPS—on 25 October, and I am meeting him on 12 December to discuss exactly the issue my hon. Friend raises.

[Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)]

T2. Train services in Manchester and the north are poor, but prices keep going up and up. A constituent sent me a photo showing delays on all but one of 18 trains between 8 am and 9 am from Levenshulme in my constituency. Appallingly, the stations does not have disabled access either. Will the Minister take steps to improve the situation so that my constituents can get to work?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

T7. The central forecast of the Office for National Statistics is that the population will hit 70 million by 2029—just 12 years’ time—which is up by 5 million from today and represents an increase of 8%. What is the Department’s estimate of growth in the number of vehicles over that same 12-year period? Given that our superb roads Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman), is enthusiastic about the design of our road network, how will his enthusiasm help to meet that challenge?

[Mr John Hayes]

There are three things I can say immediately: the record road investment programme will help; the development of vehicle technology will change the use of cars—we talk about autonomous vehicles in many ways, but one effect they may have is to change our sense of car ownership by encouraging more sharing of cars; and, as my hon. Friend rightly says, we need to think about transport infrastructure in connection with other development, such as economic development, housing development, et cetera. The question he asks is so profound that it cannot be answered in a few moments here, so I invite him to the Department to sit down with officials and have a serious discussion about this important matter.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

T4. In July a three-year-old boy experienced a life-threatening allergic reaction on a plane when fellow passengers started eating the nuts they had been served. Thankfully he survived, but I know from personal experience how terrifying it is to go into anaphylactic shock, and the last place a person would want that to happen is 30,000 feet in the air when they are hours from formal medical attention. Will the Secretary of State agree to meet me and a group of campaigners to explore solutions that would enable the 2% of the population who have a nut allergy to fly with confidence?

--- Later in debate ---

[Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP)]

Yesterday, I met people from nextbike, who run an excellent cycle hire scheme in Glasgow, which I often use to get to my surgeries. Does the Minister have any plans to regulate public cycle hire schemes, so that the public can be assured of their safety?

[Mr John Hayes]

Public hire schemes are an important part of extending provision and making cycling more widely available. As the hon. Lady will know, different schemes apply in different localities. Clearly, I am always happy to have discussions with her about this, but there are no imminent plans to make the changes that she describes.

[Amanda Milling (Cannock Chase) (Con)]

Residents and businesses in Rugeley face real issues as a result of HGV fly parking. Will the Minister update the House on any measures that are being taken to improve and increase HGV parking facilities?

[Mr Hayes]

This scheme is a subject very dear to my heart, and my hon. Friend has raised it previously in the House. She is absolutely right that the inappropriate parking of HGVs is a menace. We are trialling a “clamp first” policy in Kent. The preponderance of people who park most irresponsibly are not drivers from the United Kingdom; it is therefore difficult for local authorities to pursue them in the way that one would expect. We will look at the results of that trial and we will go further. I am determined to stop the irresponsible parking of HGVs, which causes such nuisance.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does the Secretary of State feel any guilt about the fact that many of my constituents and many people in this country thought during the referendum campaign that people like him were promising that more money would be spent on transport infrastructure and the NHS because we would save so much money from leaving the EU? Yesterday’s announcement of a £50 billion debt that we have to pay to the EU was a shocking revelation. What is he going to do about it?

[Kirstene Hair (Angus) (Con)]

Montrose port is vital to Angus’s local economy, and good transport links to and from the port are essential for it to flourish further. Will the Secretary of State tell me what communications he has had with Network Rail since his visit to Montrose, regarding progress on negotiations to open a direct link to Montrose port?

[Mr John Hayes]

I have exciting news for my hon. Friend because, as she may not know, I have initiated a full connectivity study. It is absolutely right that as we invest in our ports we look at the rail and road links to them, too. The study will be published early next year.

Drones Update

John Hayes Excerpts

Monday 27th November 2017 Written Statements

[The Minister for Transport Legislation and Maritime (Mr John Hayes)]

My noble Friend, the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Transport (Baroness Sugg) has made the following statement.

Today I am setting out new measures the Government are taking to ensure the UK remains at the forefront of the exciting and fast-growing drones market, while putting the correct legislative framework in place to guarantee it is also safe and secure.

As the Government’s industrial strategy sets out, we have the potential to cement our status as the leading location where technology companies want to build their businesses, where scientists and engineers drive innovation and where investors want to invest. Drones are an important part of this emerging industry.

Our police, fire and search and rescue services all now regularly use drones in emergency situations to help save lives. Drones are also being used to inspect and maintain key national transport infrastructure—reducing the risk of accidents and driving industry productivity and efficiency.

UK drone companies are exporting their services across the world, showcasing Britain as a leader in innovative services and generating productivity and growth across a range of sectors.

The potential for expansion is significant, but this is an advancing and developing industry which faces a number of challenges. If we are to realise the full potential of this new technology, we must also maintain our world class aviation safety record and address certain safety and privacy concerns.

In response to our consultation on drones, we committed to a review of the current powers available to law enforcement agencies. My Department has been working with the police, the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice. This review has highlighted some gaps, reflective of how aviation technology is being used in such a broad and varied way across many industries and by the public.

This can pose extra challenges for the police when investigating and prosecuting crimes, and when carrying out their duties to protect safety and security more generally.

As such, we will look to include in our draft Bill new police powers where drone users would need to produce registration documents on request, ground a drone safely in certain circumstances and the ability to seize and retain a drone’s components if there is reasonable suspicion of it having been involved in an offence.

The consultation response also set out our intention to explore the concept of mandating the use of safety and airspace awareness apps. The draft Bill will build the regulatory framework to ensure these apps meet required standards and issue correct information.

These kinds of apps give drone users easy access to the data they need to determine if a flight can be safely and legally made. Apps can also make it possible for drone users to make their flights visible to other airspace users, making drone use more accountable and transparent.

As well as safety issues, apps can help avoid compromising the security of surrounding organisations or industries such as national infrastructure, Government and military sites. The app’s information can also advise on any particularly sensitive local sites, such as schools and residential areas, to respect the privacy of others.

Alongside the publication of the draft Bill next spring, we will create the powers necessary for registration and leisure pilot testing through amendments to the Air Navigation Order (ANO), and we are developing the technical systems and educational materials that will be needed to implement these.

The Government are also reviewing the potential restriction of all drones flying above 400ft, as well as the use of drones within the proximity of an airport. Subject to the outcome of this review, we will also look to include these measures in the ANO amendment in spring 2018.

Finally, I want to update Parliament on progress with Project Chatham. This is the data project we announced in our consultation response to improve geo-fencing—when drones can be restricted from entering into ‘no-fly zones’ using the drone’s inbuilt GPS to find its location and prevent it from continuing if it approaches a restricted zone.

A group comprising departmental experts, the Civil Aviation Authority, and NATS (the national air traffic service provider), has been set up and is progressing well. To implement geo-fencing effectively this group is looking at how we release information on the UK’s airspace restrictions in a format that manufacturers and tech developers can easily use.

We are working to have a sample set of data ready for wider engagement with stakeholders by spring 2018. When fully developed, the data will help drone users fly safely in accordance with the rules.

Our approach will keep Britain at the forefront of the global market, while delivering a flexible framework for a safe, secure and successful drones industry.

[HCWS269]

Draft Community Drivers’ Hours Offences (Enforcement) regulations 2017

John Hayes Excerpts

Monday 27th November 2017 General Committees

[The Minister for Transport Legislation and Maritime (Mr John Hayes)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Community Drivers’ Hours Offences (Enforcement) Regulations 2017.

I shall say just a few words about these important but I think uncontroversial draft regulations. They are being made to enhance the powers of enforcement agencies in respect of the rules on drivers’ hours. For the benefit of Members who may not be aware of the drivers’ hours rules, I shall make a few introductory remarks.

The rules are central to keeping our roads safe; they set maximum driving times and minimum break and rest times for most commercial drivers of lorries and buses. For example, the rules mean that after four and a half hours a driver must take a 45-minute break, and daily driving time is normally limited to nine hours. The consequence of drivers working when fatigued can of course be catastrophic, so while we can be pleased to note that the number of road accidents involving buses and lorries has been reducing over time, we should never be complacent.

The rules are enforced by the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency and the police with targeted roadside checks and by visiting operators’ premises. Most breaches of the rules are identified swiftly and dealt with efficiently by means of fixed financial penalties. More serious breaches are referred to traffic commissioners or lead to prosecution. The draft regulations will extend the use of fixed penalties to a wider range of infringements of drivers’ hours—in essence, that is what they do. The regulations are based on well-established practice, widely acknowledged to be the right thing, and take that a little further.

The tachograph, the device that is used to check compliance with the rules, has an historical memory but “on the record” or so-called historical drivers’ hours offences can be sanctioned at present only through court prosecution. To use a shorthand, the draft regulations will establish a mechanism by which those historical offences can be dealt with in the same way that contemporary or current offences are dealt with now.

The problem with the existing arrangements is that they are time-consuming, bureaucratic and costly for the enforcement agencies and for the operator and driver involved. Particular difficulty is created in respect of non-UK drivers, so probably the biggest consequence of this change is for them. Now, when non-UK drivers are issued with a court summons, regrettably they do not always regard it as seriously as they might. Drivers who are issued a court summons but are off to some distant land probably will not take notice of it. At the moment, the only practical, but rarely used, means of dealing with that is to arrest the drivers and to hold them in police custody. Generally, therefore, they are just given a warning.

The draft regulations will enable the enforcement agency to issue a fixed penalty for infringement of drivers’ hours and that will apply to any offence that has taken place in the 28 days preceding the check I described. In essence, the regulations will help to level the playing field for UK and non-UK offenders. They will also bring the UK into line with several other European countries that already issue on-the-spot penalties for historical drivers’ hours offences. The enforcement agencies will be saved time and money by their being given the option of taking fewer cases to court.

The new powers will not be used indiscriminately. The DVSA intends to issue fixed penalties when the case might previously have been taken to court, not every time a minor historical offence is identified. There is already a reasonable degree of discretion in this exercise. If someone is repeatedly abusing the system in a minor way, or more seriously, typically the DVSA will take a view, but it exercises a reasonable degree of discretion.

We undertook a formal consultation on the changes, but I will not tire the Committee, or indeed you, Mr Pritchard—who, by the way, it is a delight to serve under—by going through it in exhaustive detail. However, I have the consultation with me and it is available to any Member who wants to look at it more closely and carefully. It received broad support from respondents, including the trade associations. No one really wants this important restriction on what drivers may do, which is of course in their interests, to be abused routinely. Everyone wants the mechanisms to avoid that to be fit for purpose. By filling the gap that I have described, the draft regulations will make the method, means—

[Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Hayes]

I will give way very briefly, although I was about to come to my exciting conclusion.

[Sir Oliver Heald]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way. One point that the trade bodies made was that they would not want an offence that occurred before a driver joined their operator company to be scored against the operator’s score compliance risk, because that could affect the operator’s licence. Was it possible to find a solution to that concern?

[Mr Hayes]

That is the point I just made—I referred to the consultation a few moments ago. The consultation document makes it clear that, although the point made about current and historical offences is true, operators are sufficiently persuaded by the discretion that I described to be confident that the draft regulations will be applied proportionately. They are not designed to catch people out; they are designed to do the right thing. I think that my right hon. and learned Friend knows that the representative bodies have warmly welcomed these changes on the basis of the exercise of that kind of discretion, which is already well established in their experience and in the mind of the Committee, I am sure.

Without further ado, because I know people will want to deal with this matter thoroughly but efficiently, I simply say that I think the draft regulations are entirely reasonable and deserve the support of the whole Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hayes]

That is a good and reasonable point, as I would expect from the hon. Gentleman, who is always measured and reasoned in his critique of all that the Government do, as I learned to my great benefit during the time we spent together recently discussing the Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill—not in your presence, Mr Pritchard, but before one of your fellow members of the Panel of Chairs.

The hon. Gentleman is right that we do not seek what he described as an over-zealous interpretation of the new powers. He is absolutely right to raise that point and I hope that he might be persuaded if I were to write to him to make the point that, although the new powers clearly are welcome, in line with the consultation responses, it is important that the discretion that he implies, and that my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North East Hertfordshire mentioned a few moments ago, continues to be used in the way the hon. Gentleman suggested. Although I would not delay implementation, I certainly would want to ensure that implementation was sensitive to the change. It is important that everyone gets used to the new changes. They are relatively small and within a system that is very well established, so I do not want to exaggerate their significance. It is right that we should ensure that everyone is on side and I will certainly write accordingly.

Question put and agreed to.

Durham Tees Valley Airport

John Hayes Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd November 2017 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Transport Legislation and Maritime (Mr John Hayes)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth, and to reply to this important debate. I congratulate the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) on securing it.

The hon. Gentleman’s enthusiasm for Tees Valley airport and the region as a whole is noted and is worthy. It is an enthusiasm shared, as he said, by the Mayor, who has been a great champion of the economic interests of Tees Valley and in particular of the airport. I will speak more about that in a moment, but I pay great tribute to the Mayor and to his work in that respect. I know that he will work with colleagues, as the hon. Gentleman suggested, of all political persuasions. Such matters extend well beyond a party political divide; they are about doing our best by the local people and continuing to support the local economy.

My own interest in Tees Valley, although I do not come from or represent that part of the world, I suppose began when I was in a previous ministerial job.

[Phil Wilson]

The airport is known as Durham Tees Valley.

[Mr Hayes]

Yes, I know; that was not lost on me. As I said, my own interest in Tees Valley began when I was in an earlier ministerial role and met some of the employers that the hon. Gentleman speaks about, in order to discuss their needs; I think I was the Minister responsible for skills at the time. I am well aware of the contribution that that part of our country makes to the economy as a whole, as well as to the locality. I understand the dynamism present there and the connections to other places and other countries—the international aspect that he reprised in his speech. Of course, central to all that are good communications and good infrastructure, the ability of both people and goods to travel to and from that place.

The hon. Gentleman is right to say that in that context the decline in services at Durham Tees Valley airport in recent years is a matter of regret. There is no doubt about that, as he said. I have the opportunity, therefore, to respond on the Government’s behalf to the wider points that the hon. Gentleman made about regional airports, because he mentioned that the issue is not wholly about Durham Tees Valley airport but about regional airports and their relationship to our aviation strategy. I want to say a few words about that at the outset and come back to the specifics that he mentioned.

[Alex Cunningham]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Hayes]

I will; I am about to begin my exciting account of our views on regional airports, but perhaps the hon. Gentleman will contribute to that.

[Alex Cunningham]

I am most certainly looking forward to that. Does the Minister agree that Heathrow, with all its ambitions for the third runway, could actually help regional airports, particularly Durham Tees Valley, by saying now that it will ensure that we have slots from Durham Tees Valley into Heathrow?

[Mr Hayes]

Yes; connectivity matters and I will speak about that in a moment. The hon. Gentleman made his point forcefully and put it on the record, which I am sure he wanted to do.

My view is clear: airports across the UK, including those in north-east England, make a vital contribution to the growth of regional local economies, as well as providing convenient means by which passengers can travel to other locations in the United Kingdom and other airports, as the hon. Gentleman suggests. They encourage investment, potential for trade and, as he and others have said, valuable local jobs, a base for the development of skills—many skills related to aviation are provided in those local airports—and they provide a means by which we can balance our economy. They can allow the growth of localities that are distant from south-east England but are none the less vital to our economic wellbeing, so they play many roles.

We have 40 commercial airports across the country, which ensure that 80% of the UK’s population are within 90 minutes of at least two airports. The UK has direct flights to over 370 destinations in more than 100 countries across the world. Those connections—this is the point that the hon. Gentleman made emphatically—provide huge benefits for the cities and regions of the airports that they serve. The hon. Gentleman will know, because he is interested in the subject, that the Government continue to recognise that importance. A priority for the aviation strategy that we are developing will be to ensure that the aviation sector continues to provide and improve connectivity across the regions and nations of the UK.

The hon. Gentleman will also know that this summer we published a call for evidence on the development of that strategy. We sought views on those very issues and we want to develop a strategy that takes full account of the role of airports across the country. Of course, it is true that there are major international airports in our kingdom, but they are not all that matters. The other airports matter, too—for all the reasons that the hon. Member for Sedgefield gave, and that I have amplified. We received a large number of responses to the call for evidence, which we are currently analysing, and we will consult further on the issues raised—including how to encourage connectivity—for exactly the reasons that have been argued. It is very important that an aviation strategy thinks strategically about the effect of connectivity not only to local economies but to our economy more broadly.

In those terms, I welcome this debate as a further contribution to that consideration. I invite hon. Members in Westminster Hall and others, more widely across the House, to contribute to that consultative process. It is really important that we base what we do on the understanding by different Members across the House of the effect of connectivity—particularly access to airports—in their localities and their regions. I recognise and value that.

Tees Valley airport, as the hon. Gentleman said, has enjoyed a level of investment, notwithstanding the challenges that it faces. Only this month, as he knows, a £250,000 terminal improvement programme was completed. That followed the announcement of the new services by Loganair, which will run weekly flights between Durham Tees Valley and Aberdeen, as well as non-stop flights six days a week linking Durham Tees Valley with Norwich. I am pleased to note that the airport’s public initiative, flying for the future, which highlights the airport’s key role in the Tees Valley area, shares some of the ambitions that the hon. Gentleman set out.

There is an interesting history of the particularity of the arrangements prevailing in respect of the governance of Tees Valley airport—Durham Tees Valley airport: I do not want to undersell Durham, as Durham is etched on my heart, as the hon. Gentleman probably knows. The airport was sold by the local authorities, for £500,000 I think, back in 2003 if my memory serves me right. The five local authorities concerned are still represented on the board, are they not? I suppose that they must be as distressed by the loss being made annually as anyone else, given that they are board members and share some responsibility for the airport’s governance—although they are minority shareholders, in the way that he described.

At the end of the day, what is currently happening at Durham Tees Valley airport clearly is not working. The airport is making a loss and it is not fulfilling some of the potential that the hon. Gentleman wishes for it—as does the whole Chamber, I guess. The Mayor has been in discussions with the current owners, Peel Airports. In the end, it is a commercial matter. Being mindful of the debate, I took the trouble to ring the Mayor yesterday to take his view on the issue and to ask what he felt was the Government’s role in it. He made it very clear, as I anticipated that he might, that it is not a matter for the Government, but very much a local matter, and it has to be settled locally. The Government have no competence in it. Of course, it is right to assume that they take an active interest in it, because it relates to the development of the strategy that I have described. As we care about regional airports, we would be bound to have an interest in it, but it is not for us to give power to local people to make decisions and then for me to impose what I think on local people. That would be quite wrong and no one in Westminster Hall today would want me to do that.

[Alex Cunningham]

Perhaps the Minister has answered my question before I have posed it. The local authority owns about 12% of the airport, but in the Minister’s discussions with the Mayor, did he offer the Mayor any advice on his grand plan to buy the airport, at the cost of tens of millions of pounds? Assuming—judging by his speech a few seconds ago—that the Minister did not offer him advice, what advice would he offer him now?

[Mr Hayes]

I am not sure that it would be appropriate for me to advise the Mayor on a local commercial matter. He did not seek my advice and I think that it would have been impertinent of me to offer it. I recognise that the Mayor has already made an outstanding contribution to the life, health and wellbeing of local people in Tees Valley, and I have every confidence that he will continue to do so. Indeed, we have already said that the airport matters—that is the essence of this debate. It is great that both local Members of Parliament, regardless of political party, and the Mayor are united, not only in their determination to do right by local people, but in their clear view that the airport is critical to local wellbeing.

[Dr Paul Williams]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Hayes]

I do not normally take interventions from Members who are not dressed properly, but on this occasion—because I am feeling particularly generous—although the hon. Gentleman clearly is sartorially challenged, I will hear from him.

[Dr Williams]

I thank the Minister for his generous comments. Does he therefore agree that it is time, as the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) suggested, to draw a line under the idea that anyone will buy back Durham Tees Valley airport, and that we should all work together with the Mayor to get behind Peel’s plan for the future?

[Mr Hayes]

It would be vital that any deal done worked for all parties. I am sure the Mayor is very conscious of that—clearly, that has to be the case. In the discussions that he is having with the owners, with the Tees Valley Combined Authority and with other interested parties, I have no doubt that the interests of the locality will be at his heart; they always have been and I guess that they always will be. The Government are determined to ensure that regional airports thrive, and Durham Tees Valley has to be very high on that list because, as I have said, I am a great admirer of the local people and the local economy, and I know that we made the right decision on their behalf in that cause.

Question put and agreed to.

Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill (Seventh sitting)

John Hayes Excerpts

Committee Debate: 7th sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 16th November 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

The new clause, which stands in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford, is self-explanatory, so I will not talk at great length about it. We agree that in future automated vehicles have the potential to improve personal transport arrangements, as well as air quality—which is crucial, given the dire state of the environment and its impact on health—and to provide many other benefits mentioned by Committee members and witnesses during our evidence sessions.

The Bill could lead to a transport revolution. I know from debates in Committee and private discussions with the Minister and his officials that the Government are keen to ensure that that is the reality arising from the Bill. Answering the question of how automated vehicles can be insured, however, is essential. I welcome the Government setting out how to do that, but it is important to consider how the measures will work in practice and not just as legislation. It is also important for the Government to ensure that regulations work as intended, monitoring unexpected impacts—which there always are—before attitudes and practices become entrenched and before automated vehicles become common on our roads.

The list in the new clause is not exhaustive, but given the focus on part 1 of the Bill, it makes sense to review, report on and seriously consider not only the impacts listed but any disagreements about liability. I will not press for a vote on the new clause, but this will be a fast-moving area and primary legislation is not necessarily the way forward. We may well have to revisit this overall area as and when advances in the technology take place, and we will have to look at how they affect the way vehicles are insured.

It is important for the Minister to give an assurance today that he will keep Parliament informed about the effectiveness and impact of the legislation to ensure that we keep it as up to date as possible, given the new technologies in this area.

[The Minister for Transport Legislation and Maritime (Mr John Hayes)]

The shadow Minister once again does credit to the Committee by insisting that these matters should be carefully considered not just now but as they develop. He is right that this is a developing technology, and the whole Committee recognises the Government’s attempt to do sufficient, but not too much—that is to say, sufficient to create the certainty that will allow the development of the insurance framework, but not so much that we constrain those developments. It is right, of course, that we continue to bring these matters to the attention of the House, which is essentially what the new clause would do. He argues rightly that we need to ensure that the purpose of the legislation is being fulfilled. It is as simple as that.

I risk repeating myself—I know that many rather enjoy the repetition of my arguments; I am not one of them—but I drew the Committee’s attention to the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015, which specifically makes provision to review secondary legislation in which the requisite provisions are made. It confers that duty on Ministers. There is some advantage to be gained from that. None the less, I have made it clear during the course of our consideration that I am not in any way ill disposed to other means by which we can continue to consider these matters. It is important that we recognise that, in a rapidly changing field, further consideration may be efficacious. On that basis, I hope the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East will withdraw his new clause.

Talking of sufficiency, I do not feel that that is quite sufficient an argument. I want to talk a little bit about how we envisage the system working, which might offer further reassurance to the hon. Gentleman and other Committee members. The international standards by which these vehicles will be approved for safe sale and use are still being considered, as I said previously, by the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe, in which the UK plays a leading role. Those standards will form the basis of the type approval process. That means that nothing will be sold or used on our roads that does not meet those standards, and it is vital that standards are agreed internationally, for obvious reasons: the nature of the automotive industry and of the vehicles’ use means that it must be done in that way.

The Government take the view that it is not appropriate at this early stage to set criteria that are too precise or to constrain the identification process until we know what those standards are. We certainly need to maintain sufficient flexibility to ensure that all vehicles relevant to the clause can quickly be identified and included on the list that the Secretary of State is missioned to draw up in clause 1.

[Sir Oliver Letwin (West Dorset) (Con)]

rose—

[Mr Hayes]

I see my right hon. Friend indicating that he wants to intervene. I know that whatever he says will add value to our consideration, so I happily give way.

[Sir Oliver Letwin]

Can my right hon. Friend confirm that, as he says in the first of the three letters he has helpfully written to the Committee, it will be high on the Government’s agenda that the type approval process will be used as the means for ensuring the cyber-security of the vehicles, in addition to their safety? Can he also confirm that he is confident that the international negotiations will result in a type approval system that covers security as well as safety?

[Mr Hayes]

Yes. That was debated at some length when we last met. My right hon. Friend is right that because of the character of the software we use to make these vehicles work, data and cyber-security become ever more significant. My letter addresses this, as he helpfully reminded the Committee, but I can confirm that the discussions we are having have at their heart all the considerations to which he has drawn the Committee’s attention.

We will continue to engage with the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency and other stakeholders to ensure that the system works effectively once in place. In addition, we have produced a detailed impact assessment that looks at potential direct economic impacts on the insurance industry. Hon. Members will remember that we rehearsed the effect that this will have on insurance premiums and the industry as a whole in oral evidence. The industry is already preparing for those effects, because it knows that the shape and character of the insurance industry will alter as a result of all this. Indeed, one of the UK’s major insurers has stated that it expects insurance premiums to become cheaper because automated vehicles will be safer. That view was echoed by the Bank of England, which reported in March this year that the safety benefits from automated vehicles could see insurance premiums become more than 20% cheaper by 2040.

As part of this regulatory programme, we will continue to work with the industry to ensure that, as the new insurance framework is implemented, we still meet our intended policy objectives. I therefore hope I have made it clear that we entirely agree with the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East that these matters need to be considered now and in the future, and I have no doubt that there will be a need for the House to be involved in that process. With those assurances, I hope the hon. Gentleman might see fit to withdraw the new clause.

[Karl Turner]

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 12

Review of impact of Part 2

“(1) The Secretary of State must, within 12 months of this Act receiving Royal Assent, lay a report before Parliament setting out the impact of regulations made under Part 2 on—

(a) the number and location of charge points in the United Kingdom,

(b) the resulting uptake of electric vehicles in the United Kingdom, and

(c) the manufacturing of electric vehicles in the United Kingdom.

(2) Before exercising their duties under subsection (1), the Secretary of State must consult the Scottish Government, the Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Executive and have regard to their views.”—(Alan Brown.)

This new clause would require the Government to produce a report examining the uptake and manufacturing of electric vehicles in the United Kingdom.

Brought up, and read the First time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hayes]

It is our concern that these things should be dealt with in the way the hon. Gentleman describes. I have regular dialogue with the Scottish Government, the Welsh Administration and other parts of the kingdom on transport matters and will continue to do so. We get on well, and I think we share a common view that these things should be crafted in a way that works for the whole of the United Kingdom. We make it our habit to involve all relevant bodies in these considerations. The hon. Gentleman can be absolutely certain that that will continue, and I am happy to put it on the record that that dialogue will form an important part of how we see these measures coming into force.

I see the objective of his new clause, and he makes a perfectly understandable case, but I think he will have determined from working with me in Committee in the past that I always try to find means by which we can build bridges across the House—particularly in those areas where, frankly, it is very hard to make party politics. Any Government, of almost any colour, would introduce legislation such as this. It is a necessity. It is vital, relevant and, one might even say, demanded. Those in the industry, such as those engaged in research and development, whom we have all mentioned, know that the Government need to work in collaboration with them to make it all happen in the interests of the common good. I hope that with that firm, strong assurance, the hon. Gentleman will see fit to withdraw the new clause.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alan Brown]

I welcome that intervention. It is a valid point; we need to look at the wider considerations. Buses and other vehicles are the biggest polluters in terms of NOx, so it is certainly an important consideration. As I said, I will be happy to hear the Minister’s response; I hope that it will encapsulate these issues as well.

[Mr Hayes]

In 2013, as the whole Committee, including the hon. Gentleman, will know, the Government published “Driving the Future Today”, which set out the path to achieving zero-emissions vehicles. It was Yeats, my favourite poet, who said that

“Happiness is neither virtue nor pleasure nor this thing or that, but simply growth. We are happy when we are growing.”

The growth of new kinds of vehicles has been almost unremitting since that publication. The facts speak for themselves. There are around 10 times more ultra low emission vehicles registered in the UK than in 2013, so although the aims of the strategy published then remain the same, the hon. Gentleman is right that we need a new one. I have thought about it since I read his new clause and since hearing the arguments made from both sides of the Committee. We shall publish a new strategy that will include all vehicles. The hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington is right: we have had private discussions about this and he has made representations to me. We will start work on it now, because I do not want to delay—I am casting an eye only at the politicians in the room, by the way. Shall we say that we will have it completed and published by March? That would be well within the time in which the Bill is being considered. On that basis, I hope the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun will withdraw his new clause.

[Alan Brown]

As the Minister says, the facts speak for themselves. I certainly welcome that review and that forward direction. I would also be grateful if he wrote to the Committee to confirm the timescale and the terms of reference.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hayes]

indicated assent.

[Alan Brown]

On that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 14

Report on impact of electric vehicle charging points on energy consumption

“(1) The Secretary of State must, within 12 months of this Act receiving Royal Assent, lay a report before Parliament on the impact of charging points on—

(a) energy consumption,

(b) grid management, and

(c) grid storage capacity.

(2) Before exercising their duties under subsection (1), the Secretary of State must consult the Scottish Government, the Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Executive and have regard to their views.

(3) As well as consulting those in subsection (2) the Secretary of State must consult with—

(a) the National Grid, and

(b) any other such persons as the Secretary of State considers appropriate.”—(Alan Brown.)

This new clause would require the Government to consult with devolved administrations and produce a report on the impact of energy consumption as a result of increased number of electric vehicles in the UK.

Brought up, and read the First time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hayes]

It is indicative of the generosity that typifies your stewardship of this Committee, Sir Edward, that you have allowed us to speak about the new clause, arguably tangentially but not in a way that is not helpful to our consideration. I will return to the argument of the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun in a second, but the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset are reminiscent of the conversations that he and I had many years ago when I was the Minister responsible for energy and when we unsuccessfully attempted jointly to address these matters.

My right hon. Friend is right to say that it is important that the Bill creates the necessary means by which powers could be taken, should they become necessary, to deal with the flow of information in the way he described. He will know well, having studied the Bill in detail, that although clause 11 and clause 11(2) in particular suggest that the Secretary of State can indeed take powers that he considers necessary, those powers are defined as being

“likely to be useful to users or potential users”

of a charge point. Moreover, there is nothing in clause 12 that specifically addresses the argument that my right hon. Friend just made.

In the light of that I am minded to consider a minor technical Government amendment, which either adds a further Roman numeral to the list or amends one there already, to be certain that the Secretary of State taking the powers detailed in the Bill could do so for the purpose that my right hon. Friend set out. I hope that will be sufficient to persuade him not to become rebellious and, even if the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun, who I am about to try to satisfy, withdraws his new clause, bring something potentially destructive to bear, thereby changing the whole atmosphere of this extraordinarily convivial Committee.

I think the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun is right again, if I may say so. It is certainly true that the strategy that I described, which we will bring in with vigour and rigour, with diligence and alacrity, should include the manufacture or use of electric vehicles. That is a given. It needs furthermore to relate that to the Government’s environmental objectives, which I spoke about earlier—our desire to create a low emission vehicle environment that is helpful to our broader air quality plans. However, he is also right that consideration of the matters brought up by his new clause must be part of that broad sweep or strategic approach. So, again, he does us a service by highlighting that.

I will take that point away and I hope that by the time we get to the next stage of our consideration of the Bill I will be able to say a little more about the characteristics of the strategy. On that basis, I hope that my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset and the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun will feel that I am going not the extra foot or yard but the extra mile to ensure that their wishes are granted.

[Alan Brown]

It is often asserted that the SNP is never satisfied in this place, but I am certainly satisfied with the Minister’s remarks and with that direction of travel, so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the new clause.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 15

Liability of insurers etc where accident is caused by automated vehicles in convoy

“(1) That the Secretary of State must set out in regulations liability for insurers and other parties where an accident is caused by automated vehicles driving themselves in convoy.

(2) These regulations must make provision for—

(a) a definition of automated vehicles driving themselves in convoy,

(b) determining liability of insurers and automated vehicle owners in cases where—

(i) the automated vehicles travelling in convoy are insured, including where the vehicles may be insured by different companies;

(ii) one or more of the automated vehicles driving in convoy are not insured.

(c) resolving liability disputes where automated vehicles are driving in convoy,

(d) ensuring any compensation received by the injured party in such accidents is not delayed by liability disputes.

(3) Where a statutory instrument contains the first regulations made under this section, the instrument may not be made unless a draft of it has been laid before Parliament and approved by resolution of the House.

(4) A statutory instrument containing regulation under this section that is not the first such regulation made under this section, is subject to an annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.”—(Clive Efford.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hayes]

Given that it is not our intention for platooning to be self-driving at this stage—the trials I am about to describe do not include autonomous vehicles—it seems that in allowing us to have this brief debate, Sir Edward, your generosity knows very few bounds indeed. None the less, it is a helpful debate.

As the hon. Member for Eltham knows, we started platooning trials in August. We are adopting a highly consultative approach, and the trials are ongoing. The hon. Gentleman is right that we will need to consider a range of issues not necessarily directly related to the Bill but not unconnected from it, one of which might be the gradual addition of autonomous vehicles into the platooning mode, as it were—that way of driving.

There are potential benefits to platooning, particularly for the movement of goods nationally, which is why we are trialling it. I accept that the insurance issues will need to be considered very carefully for reasons set out by the hon. Gentleman and my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset. As a result of this very useful though short debate, I will be happy to ensure that we include in the consultation discussions with the insurance industry in anticipation of the addition of autonomous vehicles into the platooning field. It will, of course, already be considering the insurance issues relating to non-autonomous vehicles that are platooning. That is implicitly part of what that consultation is about. I am happy to commit to including autonomous vehicles in that.

I obviously cannot comment on individual cases; it would be quite wrong to do so. It is right to say that as an insurance framework develops from the Bill it must be sufficient to take into account the arguments made in the new clause. I will certainly ensure that that message is transmitted not only from this Committee but from the Government. On that basis, I hope the hon. Member for Eltham will withdraw the new clause.

[Clive Efford]

The Minister is in an extremely generous mood this morning. I am reassured by his comments that he will take these matters on board and consult on them in the future. There are some important issues here, but I am satisfied by what he has said, so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 16

Sharing of data to resolve liability disputes

“(1) Where an accident occurs under sections 2, 3 or 4, the insurer and other interested parties have the right to acquire data from the automated vehicle for the purpose of determining the extent of liability.

(2) The Secretary of State must set out in regulations a system for handling and sharing data generated in respect of accidents involving automated vehicles.

(3) These regulations must make provision for—

(a) the format and content of the data recorded by automated vehicles,

(b) identifying who is responsible for data collection,

(c) identifying which interested parties have the right to acquire data from the automated vehicle,

(d) how such data may be acquired by the insurer and other interested parties, and

(e) any limitation that should be placed on how that data can be shared or used.

(4) Prior to making regulations under this section, the Secretary of State must consult with such persons as the Secretary of State considers appropriate.

(5) Where a statutory instrument contains the first regulations made under this section, the instrument may not be made unless a draft of it has been laid before Parliament and approved by a resolution of each House.

(6) A statutory instrument containing regulations under this section, that is not the first such instrument made under this section, is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.”—(Karl Turner.)

This new clause would ensure that insurers and other interested parties have access to automated vehicle data for the purpose of resolving disputes on the extent of liability where an accident has occurred. This clause would give the Secretary of State power to make regulations on how such data should be handled and shared.

Brought up, and read the First time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Karl Turner]

Yes. The right hon. Gentleman makes a valid point. As a lawyer, I am always reluctant to make lawyers redundant, but that is clearly a potential outcome.

New clause 16 will give insurers and other interested parties access to that information. It will require the Secretary of State to consult with the appropriate persons and then to put in place regulations for the handling and sharing of such data. [Interruption.] The Minister is nodding along nicely to my remarks and I look forward to his response.

[Mr Hayes]

With you in the Chair, Sir Edward, I feel I am surrounded by lawyers.

The hon. Gentleman is right that data collection will be vital as the technology develops. Furthermore, he is right that this is a potentially challenging area because of the sensitivity of some of that data. I would go still further and say that there is a balance to be struck between the desirable collection of data to establish what might have occurred in the event of an accident and the privacy of drivers. That balance will need to be struck with great care and must be struck internationally, because people drive across borders. I have spoken repeatedly about the development of international standards, mainly in relation to the type approval process. Those international discussions should and will include the parallel issues of data storage and data collection. As I have made clear, we are engaged in those discussions, and we will certainly want to highlight the issues raised in the new clause as those standards develop.

The debate about what data, beyond who or what was in control of the vehicle, needs to be collected has begun but still needs to conclude. That debate will include engagement about who needs to access that data, and on what basis and for what purpose they will be allowed to access it. That will need to be clearly established to avoid the eventuality—which the hon. Gentleman, given his previous professional circumstances, teasingly offered us—of countless legal cases, no doubt with countless legal fees.

[Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab)]

I share the Minister’s concerns about this point. As a non-lawyer, I must admit that my knowledge of the legal aspects is somewhat limited. However, I represent a constituency with large IT businesses, and I urge him to consider the IT industry’s views about the management of big data. There is an ongoing debate in the industry about the various international conventions and rules that govern data. Will he and his officials consult the industry and take on board its concerns about the impact of Brexit and, indeed, our ongoing relationship with the United States on the management of that data? A number of those businesses operate in the European Union, the US and the UK, and I hope that they continue to do so.

[Mr Hayes]

I regard Brexit as the prospect of a dream coming true. It is a subject of great joy and delight to me. However, I do not want to open up—

[The Chair]

This was going to be the only Committee where we did not mention Brexit. Let us get back to the point.

[Mr Hayes]

I should not have done so; I allowed the debate to run away with me. Notwithstanding that, there are challenges associated with Brexit, and the hon. Member for Reading East makes the perfectly fair point that we need to take that into account.

[Sir Greg Knight]

rose—

[Mr Hayes]

I was about to reach my enthralling conclusion, but I happily give way briefly to my right hon. Friend.

[Sir Greg Knight]

Does the Minister agree that, without international agreement about how it is stored, the data will be in as many forms as there are car manufacturers? That would mean that only the manufacturers themselves were able to decipher it. There is a strong argument for seeking international agreement on this matter.

[Mr Hayes]

My right hon. Friend is right; he makes a sound point. That is precisely why I said in response to the shadow Minister that we need cross-border international agreement.

By the way, the hon. Member for Reading East is right, too, about the need to ensure that industry—not just the automotive industry, but the IT industry—is engaged. As he knows, my background is in the IT industry, and it is important that we take advantage of all available expertise in judging why, but also how, we manage data. The “why” is about the balance I described earlier, and the “how” is about the mechanisms for achieving that balance.

I end with this statement, which I hope is sufficiently reassuring. I assure hon. Members that the UK Government and others around the world are investing heavily in automated and connected technologies that will assist in providing evidence of what minimum event data recording and sharing requirements might be needed and wanted. We will work on an international basis to decide what can be done, what should be done and how it will be done. Given that assurance, I hope that the shadow Minister withdraws the new clause.

[Karl Turner]

I am happy to do so. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 17

Accident resulting from unauthorised inspection, repair or maintenance of automated vehicle

“(1) An insurance policy in respect of an automated vehicle may exclude or limit the insurer’s liability under section 2(1) for damage suffered by an insured person arising from an accident occurring as a direct result of unauthorised inspection, repair or maintenance of the automated vehicle, made by the insured person, or with the insured person’s knowledge, that are prohibited under the policy.

(2) But as regards liability for damage suffered by an insured person who is not the holder of the policy, subsection (1) applies only in relation to unauthorised inspection, repair or maintenance of the automated vehicle which, at the time of the accident, the person knows are prohibited under the policy.

(3) Subsection (4) applies where an amount is paid by an insurer under section 2(1) in respect of damage suffered, as a result of an accident, by someone who is not insured under the policy in question.

(4) If the accident occurred as a direct result of unauthorised inspection, repair or maintenance of the automated vehicle, made by the insured person, or with the insured person’s knowledge, that are prohibited under the policy, the amount paid by the insurer is recoverable from that person to the extent provided for by the policy.

(5) But as regards recovery from an insured person who is not the holder of the policy, subsection (4) applies only in relation to unauthorised inspection, repair or maintenance of the automated vehicle which, at the time of the accident, the person knew were prohibited under the policy.

(6) For the purposes of this section the Secretary of State must by regulations establish a scheme for authorised inspection, repair and maintenance of automated vehicles by licensed and accredited technicians.

(7) The scheme must include details of—

(a) which professional body will operate the licensing and accreditation of technicians,

(b) how the licensing and accreditation scheme will operate,

(c) a minimum level of training for technicians working on listed automated vehicles, and

(d) how a list of accredited individuals will be prepared and kept up-to-date.

(8) Prior to making regulations under this section, the Secretary of State must consult with such persons as the Secretary of State considers appropriate.

(9) Where a statutory instrument contains the first regulations made under this section, the instrument may not be made unless a draft of it has been laid before Parliament and approved by a resolution of each House.

(10) A statutory instrument containing regulations under this section, that is not the first such instrument made under this section, is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.”—(Karl Turner.)

This new clause would ensure that insurers should not have to bear liability to the insured person for accidents caused by the vehicle being inspected, repaired or maintained by unauthorised technicians in breach of the insurance policy. This would apply subject to various conditions regarding the level of knowledge of the insured person or policyholder about the insurance policy requirements. This clause would give the Secretary of State power to make regulations on a scheme for authorised inspection, repair and maintenance of automated vehicles by licensed and accredited technicians.

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Karl Turner]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

The new clause, which stands in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford, would protect the insurer against accidents caused by vehicles having been repaired by unauthorised technicians. It would also require the Government to establish a scheme for authorised inspection. The automotive industry already relies on hundreds of thousands of individuals in roles to support, work on and maintain vehicles. As the technology develops, so too must the skills of those working on them.

We are aware of existing skills gaps in the industry. The Minister and I have had discussions about this very issue. I think the Government have got a really good intention to skill up people in this area, but as the technology develops, skills gaps seem to be worsening. The Bill does not address the worsening skill gap. If we do not start planning now, we will be left with a huge hole in the support structures for the new vehicles. That is why the Opposition believe, as do a number of stakeholders, that the Government should introduce an accreditation scheme for technicians to work on future vehicles. I think the Minister previously said publicly that he may do just that.

If the Government are not proactive, the UK will not be able to support growth in the new technologies. Will the Minister therefore consider introducing an accreditation scheme for technicians, not only to address the skills shortage but to provide a wider set of protections for insurers against unauthorised repairers and unauthorised maintenance of these vehicles, as set out in the new clause?

[Mr Hayes]

It is a paradox that, as we become more ambitious in respect of future transport, we simultaneously create a greater and greater problem in respect of the skills necessary to deliver those ambitions. With the road investment strategy, which I began, and with our rail investment strategy, High Speed 2, Crossrail and all the other developments, the need for transport skills is growing at a pace that is hard to satisfy. We have analysed that thoroughly. Indeed, I think we can fairly say that the Department for Transport is a leader in terms of mapping those future needs and identifying the space between where we are now and where we need to be. Encouraging more and more people to gain those skills will be critical and could be the “make or break” of the technology. Investing in infrastructure means investing in people as well as in things.

If that is a paradox, it is a pseudodox that the only means of gaining fulfilment comes through academic accomplishment. Curious, is it not, that we should have convinced ourselves of that for so long. Frankly, I was never convinced, but many were. Of course, it is through the application of technical and vocational skills that many people find not only their ultimate fulfilment but the means by which our economy works. Encouraging more people to take the practical journey towards the achievement of such competencies is vital. That is why I am so passionate about apprenticeships and why, when I was apprenticeships Minister, I championed those practical skills.

It is perhaps through practical accomplishment—the combination of the work of one’s hands and one’s mind—that people are most likely to achieve the sublime. Most academic learning, at least up until master’s degree level, is derivative. Technical learning is creative at a much earlier stage. Perhaps a journey to the sublime is made more likely through what we do practically, technically and vocationally.

I agree with the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East. Furthermore, I agree that we need to codify and accredit such skills. The argument becomes, therefore, not about intent, but about method. It is probable that we are at too early a stage to be certain about what that kind of accreditation might look like. Nevertheless, I am happy to agree to have further discussions with the Institute of the Motor Industry and others to help the Government to understand the challenge of ensuring that vehicle maintenance and repair is carried out in a professional and safe manner for technicians and drivers.

May I add a relevant further point, Sir Edward, that does not directly relate to the proposed new clause? I hope your earlier generosity will not have ended.

[The Chair]

Well, lunch is approaching, so it is getting a bit frayed.

[Mr Hayes]

Your generosity declines the closer we get to food; I can understand that, Sir Edward.

There is a risk that smaller providers of services—the small garages and small businesses—will be disadvantaged if those skills are found only in the proprietary repair centres of major manufacturers. I am keen that that should not be the case, not only because it will make those small businesses less viable, but because it will mean that people will travel further to get their car serviced and repaired—the major centres will not be so evenly distributed—and that those acquiring the skills will have to travel much further to do so.

I hope we might be able to emulate the industries that the hon. Member for Reading East mentioned earlier and represents. In the IT sector, while there are a relatively small number of very large manufacturers, they work through a whole series of other smaller businesses that are accredited to work with them or for them. Perhaps that is the model we should look at to avoid the unfortunate eventuality that I have taken the liberty, with your indulgence, Sir Edward, of drawing to the Committee’s attention.

The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East and most of the House are well aware of my absolute commitment to and passion for skills. On that basis, I hope he will withdraw the amendment.

[Karl Turner]

I will happily do so. It is fair to say that the Minister has gone beyond what I had anticipated, so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 20

Consultation on the collection and use of data from electric vehicle charging points and smart charge points

‘The Secretary of State must consult with such persons as the Secretary of State considers appropriate on the collection and use of data from electric vehicle charging points and smart charge points. The consultation must address—

(a) who is responsible for collecting the data from electric vehicles and from any associated charging or network infrastructure used by such vehicles,

(b) how the data is shared between different parties, and

(c) any limitations on the use of such data.’— (Karl Turner.)

This new clause would require the Secretary of State to consult on the collection and use of data from electric vehicle charging points and smart charge points.

Brought up, and read the First time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hayes]

I can deal with this very quickly: I do agree and I will take those steps.

[Karl Turner]

On that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

[The Chair]

A very good note to end on.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

[Mr Hayes]

On a point of order, Sir Edward. As we conclude our work on the Bill, I want to offer my thanks, of course, to you, Sir Edward, and Mr Bailey for chairing the Committee, and to all members of the Committee. I think it is now a matter of fact that our considerations have been dutiful and considered and continued in the spirit of conviviality and good will in which they began.

Bernard Shaw said:

“We are made wise not by the recollection of our past, but by the responsibility for our future.”

But he was wrong about that. In truth, all we have known, been and done informs, inspires and enlivens all we can know, be and do. What we do in respect of the Bill must be informed by all that has passed and that we have learned from the past. This is a new technology, although many of the principles that we have discussed are time-honoured ones. We have spoken just today about skills. We have spoken about the balance between privacy and the useful exchange of information; where responsibility lies and who should take it; and the balance between Government and private individuals and private businesses. Those are not new or modern things, although the technology may be. They are things that should always drive and inspire the proper scrutiny of legislation and the proper business of Government, and this Committee has once again shown that.

I am delighted that the contributions from my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset have shown that even intellectuals add value. I am delighted, too, that my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire, with his recherché approach, has again made the case for all that is glorious about that which is vintage. His own vintage performances have delighted me and, I am sure, many others.

May I particularly thank the Opposition Members, as well as the Government Members, including members of the Select Committee on Transport, who know far more about these subjects than I do? I also thank my Parliamentary Private Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall, and of course my former PPS, my hon. Friend the Member for Pendle, who is now my Whip. I particularly thank Opposition Members. For it is very easy in opposition to criticise and carp. It is very easy in opposition to critique a Bill in a way that is designed to be unhelpful rather than helpful. That has not been the case in this Committee. Opposition Members have sought to contribute in a positive, constructive and thoughtful way. I know it is much easier to be a Government Minister than a shadow Minister, because I have done that job, too, so I am extremely grateful to the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East for the approach that he has adopted.

With those brief words—some will say all too brief—I thank everyone once again for making the Committee such a success.