Oral Answers to Questions
David Mundell Excerpts(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
1. What recent discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues and Ministers in the Scottish Executive on funding for higher education institutions in Scotland.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues on matters related to higher education in Scotland. Funding for higher education in Scotland is largely a devolved matter, and my hon. Friend may be aware that the Scottish Government concluded the consultation on its Green Paper on the future of higher education funding on 1 March.
Mr Hollobone
In our United Kingdom, is it right that students from England studying in Scotland can be discriminated against in favour of students from Scotland or from other countries in the European Union?
David Mundell
My hon. Friend will know, as I have stated, that higher education is devolved, and it is for the Scottish Government to decide how to determine the funding of students from both Scotland and England. The fact that £75 million is being spent funding students from the European Union in Scotland will be the subject of considerable discussion at the forthcoming Scottish Parliament elections.
Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)
Not long ago, the Secretary of State unwittingly told The Daily Telegraph that
“tuition fees are the biggest, ugliest, most horrific thing”,
and that breaking his word on the issue is
“the worst crime a politician can commit”.
Does the Minister agree with him?
David Mundell
I agree with Sir Andrew Cubie, who commented on the Scottish Government’s proposals on higher education, and said that their response was “too late” and that they had had the opportunity to lead the way on higher education in the United Kingdom, but chose to follow.
Angus Robertson
The Minister chose not to answer the question. Returning to the comments of the Secretary of State, at the same time, he said that accepting tuition fees of £9,000 was a “car crash” and “a train wreck”. Will the Minister confirm that, because the issue is devolved, Scotland does not have to follow the hare-brained policy of the Liberal Democrats and Conservatives in government in England by introducing a car crash of a policy in Scotland?
David Mundell
My concern for students in Scotland stems from the failure of the Scottish National party Government to address the issue of higher education funding in Scotland. As the hon. Gentleman will know, a funding gap of up to £260 million in higher education in Scotland has been identified as a result of the SNP’s governance. By my definition, that is a car crash.
Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)
The aspect of the reform of higher education funding in England that I most applaud is the fact that, for the first time, part-time students will receive the same treatment as full-time students. Will my right hon. Friend do all he can to persuade the Scottish Government to do all they can to support part-time students in Scotland?
David Mundell
My hon. Friend identifies a positive and progressive aspect of the Government’s higher education policy as it applies to England, and it is a policy that deserves to be introduced in Scotland.
Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
2. What recent discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the implementation of a fuel duty derogation for rural areas.
John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)
3. How many small businesses in Scotland (a) applied for and (b) received research and development tax credits in the latest period for which figures are available?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
In the financial year 2008-09, figures for the United Kingdom show that there were 350 claims for research and development tax credits from small and medium-sized businesses, and that the total amount of relief awarded was £15 million. Figures for Scotland are not currently held centrally.
John Robertson
Well, there we are: once again, a question not answered. The right hon. Gentleman probably does not even know that there is no R and D specialist unit in Scotland to help small businesses get tax credits—but there is one in Wales and six in England. Does he think that that is fair?
David Mundell
What I am aware of is that Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs R and D tax and credits unit held a workshop in Glasgow on 9 February, and it was well attended by businesses from the Glasgow area.
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
Do the Government intend to abolish the intellectual property restrictions on R and D tax credits, which would make it much easier for companies in Scotland in the biotechnology and micro-electronics industries to benefit?
David Mundell
The Government do indeed intend to abolish that restriction, and I believe that it will have the benefits that my hon. Friend outlines.
Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)
10. When he last met anti-poverty campaigners in Scotland to discuss the potential effect in Scotland of the measures in the Welfare Reform Bill.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
The Secretary of State for Scotland and I are in regular contact with ministerial colleagues in the Department for Work and Pensions. We also meet regularly organisations in Scotland with an interest in welfare and combating poverty.
Michael Connarty
That was not an answer to the question that I asked. I cite two cases to the Under-Secretary: a family with a son born with fragile X syndrome and autism and another family with an absolutely outstanding young teacher who suffered a massive stroke. Both of them now require 24-hour residential care. Their lives will be damaged irreparably if the Government go ahead with the withdrawal of benefits for people in residential care—benefits that give them a quality of life that makes residential care not a prison sentence. Will the Secretary of State and the Scotland Office campaign with the people of Scotland against this proposal by the Government to withdraw benefits from people in residential care?
David Mundell
The hon. Gentleman will be aware that there was a debate this morning in Westminster Hall on that specific issue. The Government have indicated that they are listening to the concerns. The fundamental issue with disability living allowance is that it is not fit for purpose and needs change. The Government are taking those changes forward.
Mrs McGuire
I have been contacted by Mr Ron Skinner, MBE, who is a non-executive director of Order of Malta Dial-a-Journey Ltd, which operates in my constituency. He expressed grave concern about the impact of the removal of mobility allowance from those in residential care. What specific discussions has the Minister had with his opposite numbers in the Department for Work and Pensions on this issue, which is causing great concern for those in residential care?
David Mundell
Yesterday, I met the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling) and Lord Freud, the Minister in the House of Lords who is responsible for welfare reform, to discuss the implications of welfare reform for Scotland. The right hon. Lady raises one such issue. As was said in Westminster Hall this morning, DLA as it currently exists is not fit for purpose. It is applied randomly across care homes, not just in Scotland but across the United Kingdom, and it needs to be reformed.
Fiona O'Donnell
Like you, Mr Speaker, I am feeling in a generous mood, so I will give the Under-Secretary of State a third chance to redeem himself. The Prime Minister’s excuse for removing the mobility component was that it addressed an anomaly between those in hospital and those in residential care. Will the Under-Secretary of State at least acknowledge that residential care homes are based on a social model, and not a medical model?
David Mundell
I certainly acknowledge that residential care homes are social rather than medical institutions primarily. However, as the hon. Lady will know, having been present at this morning’s debate in Westminster Hall, many care homes operate the mobility aspect of disability living allowance differently. The basis on which it is applied to a person in a home in Scotland and what it is applied for is dependent on which home they are in. I am sure she will agree that that is not acceptable.
Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that many families in Scotland are suffering economically and socially because of the disastrous policies not only of 13 years of Labour Government, but of four years of Scottish National party Government in Scotland? Will he undertake to work with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to ensure that people in Scotland who are in real need, especially those with disabilities, benefit under his Government’s policies?
David Mundell
I agree with my Friend’s analysis. Like many people in Scotland, I recognise that the Welfare Reform Bill provides a once-in-a-generation opportunity to radically overhaul the benefits and welfare system.
Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)
Can the Minister indicate to the House how many low-paid Scots will be lifted out of income tax, and how many families in Scotland will benefit from the reform to tax credits that has been announced?
Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
The changes announced last week to social fund crisis loans will cut the level and availability of loans for essential items such as beds and cookers. Does the Minister agree that that will push vulnerable people on lower incomes towards high-cost lending and into the arms of loan sharks, exacerbating problems that Scotland already has?
David Mundell
I do not agree with the hon. Lady’s analysis. I am surprised to hear again from the Scottish National party that it does not welcome the devolution of elements of the social fund to the Scottish Parliament.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
9. What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills on the operation of the green investment bank in Scotland.
Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)
11. What discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the effect on the economy in Scotland of the increase in the standard rate of value added tax.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
The Secretary of State and I have regular discussions with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on a range of issues. The VAT rise is a tough but necessary step towards Britain’s economic recovery.
Margaret Curran
Is the Minister aware of the sense of outrage throughout Scotland that on this Government’s watch, the increase in VAT means that low and middle-income families now pay a higher rate of tax on purchases and earnings than the banks are to pay on their profits? How can that possibly be fair, and why do the Government continue to insist that those with the least should pay the most?
David Mundell
I am aware of the sense of outrage, not just in Scotland but throughout the UK, at the state of the economy that the last Labour Government left us with, which has required such measures to be taken.
Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)
Does the Minister not accept that the recent increase in VAT, particularly on fuel such as petrol and diesel, is having a more dramatic effect on the economy in rural areas? Does he not think that his Government should address that?
David Mundell
The hon. Lady would be much more credible on that point if she had spoken out against her Government’s rises in duty. The issue of fuel prices in rural areas is serious, and it is already clear that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has heard the concerns.
Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)
12. What discussions he has had with the Deputy Prime Minister on the establishment of a commission to examine the West Lothian Question.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
The Secretary of State and I have regular discussions with the Deputy Prime Minister on various issues, including those concerning the constitution. The Government remain committed to establishing a commission this year to consider the West Lothian question.
Harriett Baldwin
The Deputy Prime Minister told us that the commission would be established by the end of 2010, then the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), told us that it would be established in the new year. Does the Minister know on what date in 2011 the commission will be established?
David Mundell
I am not able to give my hon. Friend an exact date, but as she will know, it is a commitment of the coalition Government to proceed with the commission, and I am sure announcements will be made shortly.
John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con)
13. What recent discussions he has had with the First Minister on support for private sector employment in Scotland.
Scotland Bill
David Mundell Excerpts(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Pete Wishart
I have no dispute whatever with the hon. Lady about that; of course the count should take place as soon as possible—[Interruption.] If she will allow me, I must point out that we are debating clause 1. She needs to check what we are discussing just now.
We have made progress, but it is unfortunate that we are unable to debate certain amendments that could have been tabled on the back of what was proposed by the parliamentary Bill Committee in the Scottish Parliament. We are at a different stage in the process. The legislative consent motion has not been passed, yet we are here today scrutinising the Bill in detail in Committee without having access to that important work.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
May I seek clarification from the hon. Gentleman? Why are he and his colleagues tabling amendments that do not appear in the Scottish Parliament’s legislative consent motion Committee? For example, they are tabling an amendment proposing to devolve the matter of especially dangerous airguns to the Scottish Parliament, even though that was not the unanimous view of the Committee. If he respects the view of the Committee, why is he tabling such amendments?
The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I know that the Minister is eager to debate airguns, but perhaps he could wait until we get to the relevant clause? Meanwhile, I am sure that Mr Wishart was going to stick to clause 1 and this group of amendments.
Pete Wishart
I am grateful to you, Ms Primarolo. That is exactly what I was going to do. May I just say to the Minister, however, that we will introduce and propose our own amendments? His problem as a Minister, and the problem for all the Calman commission parties, is that they have no opportunity to table their own amendments relating to the recommendations of the Scottish parliamentary Bill Committee. There has been no opportunity to do that because we got the Bill Committee’s report only on Friday morning.
David Mundell
I do not want to exceed my role, but the hon. Gentleman will be aware that it will be possible to discuss any further amendments arising from the Scottish Parliament’s consideration of the Committee’s report on Report in this House.
Pete Wishart
I accept that, and I said that the failings identified were not just those of the then Labour Scotland Office, although it was in charge of the process and the buck stopped there. Ron Gould identified a number of issues in his report. One of the key things that he identified was fragmentation and a disparity in responsibilities between this House and the Scottish Parliament. He made the strong suggestion that all responsibilities and arrangements for Scottish Parliament elections should be in one place, under one jurisdiction, and he gave the strongest possible hint that that should be the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish Parliament considered the Gould report back in January 2008. Its Members were unanimously of the view that all electoral administration, including competence for elections, should be in one place, and they made it clear that that place should be the Scottish Parliament.
David Mundell
Will the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that as one of Ron Gould’s recommendations was that there should be no overnight counts, perhaps he was not right about everything?
Mr Davidson
We have to ask ourselves a fairly simple question about when the count is held: for whose convenience are elections run? There is a view, very strongly held, that elections are run for the convenience of returning officers. I do not take that view; I tend to think that people generally want elections run for their convenience. A tradition has developed over a long period, whereby those who do not follow an election overnight wake up in the morning and hear the result, and I see no good reason why we should not make that stipulation. Of course professionals and those who are competent at, and have experience in, running elections should have a say in how polls are carried out, but they should not be the tail that wags the dog.
That is one of the issues, however, because if we have an election management board, with the role of the Electoral Commission being brought into question, it must be under democratic control; it must not be self-employed and able to set its own rules according to its own convenience, because its view of what is best will often be determined by self-interest.
I understand, however, that the Government are about to announce a change in the rules about the announcement of by-elections, so that when the Government, particularly the minority governing party, have a successful result along the lines of that in Barnsley, it will be announced some two days after hell freezes over. That does not seem to be an appropriate outcome. Not only did the junior partner in the coalition—this cuts coalition—come sixth; it has been suggested that it came sixth only because the Scottish National party was not standing, and that support for the SNP in Barnsley would have been far greater than that for the Liberals. I can understand that.
I was interested to see that the UK Independence party—basically the British National party with suits—beat the Conservatives, which again tells us something significant. People do find that quite exciting and stimulating. I want to ensure, however, that the Government’s position is that two ballots should not be conducted at the same time, because, unless the Government change their mind, the Scottish Parliament elections and the AV referendum will be held on the same day. I hope that we can secure the commitment that they will be counted separately, because most of us want to see the Liberals get a kicking twice, and it would greatly spoil our enjoyment if the results came out at the same time. People in Scotland want to be able to say no to separation, no to cuts, no to the coalition and no to AV, and they need the announcements to be clearly separated.
Finally on the issue of delay, I am old enough to have read about John F. Kennedy’s presidential election. The result turned on Illinois, and in Illinois the result turned on Chicago. Chicago, despite being an urban area, was about the last area to announce its vote, because the Democrats held the results back until they found out how many votes they needed to win that state and, hence, the American presidential election. Thankfully, we have always been free of any such suggestion in this country, but it will be considered a possibility if there is any undue delay. It is therefore important to proceed with the count as quickly as possible.
I would like to remind people of the excitement that they, too, felt when they heard the result of the Barnsley by-election. I do not know whether I have mentioned this, but the junior partner in the coalition did not come anywhere close; in fact, it was sixth. I do not have the figures with me, but I suspect that it was only the votes of a couple of households, and the fact that the SNP did not stand, that stopped it coming 10th out of nine candidates.
David Mundell
I welcome you to the Chair, Mr Evans. It is always a pleasure to follow the Chairman of the Scottish Affairs Committee. I thank the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) for his good advice, which, as he said, he garnered during his sentence at the Scotland Office.
While Ms Primarolo was in the Chair, Mr Evans, I tried to seek some guidance on the SNP position in respect of this Bill, because, as those of us who were present during its Second Reading will know, the SNP declared it to be unacceptable. However, I am afraid that that clarity was not forthcoming.
Pete Wishart
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is not only the case that the SNP found the Bill in its current, unamended form to be unacceptable, but that the Scottish Parliament’s Bill Committee made many recommendations that have significantly improved it?
David Mundell
The hon. Gentleman mentions the Bill Committee. I sought from him, and again he refused to answer, clarification on whether he would accept that Committee’s report, and whatever the vote of the Scottish Parliament is, rather than pursuing amendments that even his colleagues on the Committee did not pursue.
Pete Wishart
The right hon. Gentleman’s colleague, the Secretary of State of State for Scotland, has said to me and to this House that he is not of a mind to accept all the recommendations from the Scottish Parliament’s Bill Committee. How can we make up our minds if he does not tell us what is and is not going to be accepted?
David Mundell
The Secretary of State made it clear in his written ministerial statement that the Government will give serious consideration to all the amendments and issues raised in the Bill Committee because we respect the work of that Committee and the work of the Scottish Parliament; we do not pick and choose to meet our own political ends.
Mr MacNeil
Is the right hon. Gentleman accepting or steamrollering the will of the Scottish Parliament’s Bill Committee?
David Mundell
The Government are looking forward to the debate in the Scottish Parliament later this week when it will consider the legislative consent motion coming forward from the Bill Committee. It will be very interesting to see how the SNP votes in that debate.
Clause 1 transfers to Scottish Ministers certain Executive functions relating to the administration of Scottish Parliament elections that are currently the responsibility of the Secretary of State. Members will wish to note that the Bill Committee in the Scottish Parliament accepted this provision in its report on the Bill. However, as has been mentioned, the report also asked for consideration of a number of related issues such as the procedure for filling any regional seat vacancy during the life of a Parliament, the rules relating to disqualification, and reciprocal consultation. I wish to reaffirm that the written statement from the Secretary of State makes clear our commitment carefully to consider those recommendations, including those relating to this clause. The Scottish Parliament will vote on the Bill on Thursday, and we await the outcome of that vote.
The clause will enable Scottish Ministers to make general provision by order for the conduct and administration of elections to Holyrood, subject only to some necessary constraints. This power includes making provision about supply or otherwise dealing with the electoral register, the combination of Scottish Parliament elections with other elections falling within the legislative competence of the Parliament, and limitation of candidates’ election expenses. However, some elements of the powers will remain the function of the Secretary of State—that is, the franchise and the power to combine Scottish Parliament elections with other reserved elections. That will ensure that issues of constitutional importance continue to be dealt with by the UK Parliament. The Scotland Bill Committee in the Scottish Parliament recognised and accepted the continued reservation of those matters.
Amendment 10, as the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West said, would require Scottish Ministers’ first conduct order under the new powers to include provision requiring returning officers to start the count at Scottish Parliament elections within four hours of the close of the poll, or to publish a statement explaining why they were unable to do so. It is important to clarify at this point that the amendment would not apply to the 2011 Scottish Parliament elections.
I recognise the strength of feeling on this issue, which has been set out eloquently by the right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire), the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty) and my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing). The drama and excitement of election night and the wish to know the election result as soon as possible are vital parts of our political heritage. I want returning officers to listen to what has been said in this debate. As hon. Members who represent Scottish constituencies know, Mary Pitcaithly, the chairman of the Electoral Management Board for Scotland, will be available to Scottish MPs to discuss the arrangements for the forthcoming Scottish elections at a meeting at the Scotland Office later this week. I am sure that the point about overnight counts will again be forcefully made.
In a recent response to the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West, I suggested that he and his colleagues should lobby for overnight counts. I had noticed that the counts in Conservative-led council areas such as Dumfries and Galloway, Scottish Borders and South Ayrshire were scheduled to be overnight counts, and that Labour predominated in the council areas that were on the list of counts scheduled to happen the following day. I therefore thought that he might be able to bring more influence to bear than I in those areas.
Cathy Jamieson
I hear what the Minister is saying, but does he not agree that the best way to ensure that overnight counts take place is to pass the amendment and put it in the Bill, rather than simply exhorting to people and leaving the discretion to them?
David Mundell
The hon. Lady cannot have heard me say that the amendment would not apply to the 2011 election. I am surprised that she, of all people, takes the view that when we are devolving powers to the Scottish Parliament on this matter, we should curtail them. Once the powers have been devolved, it will be perfectly possible for the Scottish Parliament to take account of the representations that have been made from certain quarters, where there is clearly an equally strong feeling about overnight counts. Passing this amendment would be contrary to the spirit of devolving responsibility for these matters to the Scottish Parliament. I certainly hope that we will not see support from the Scottish National party for such curtailment of a newly devolved power.
Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)
Does the Minister agree, given the strength of feeling that has been clearly shown across the Committee this afternoon, that this matter should be left to a free vote for Government Members? This point elicits a great deal of excitement and passion among Members, so it would be appropriate to deal with it on the basis of Members’ own judgment, rather than on a party political basis.
David Mundell
From the hon. Lady’s experience of the Scotland Office, she will know that this is a debate not about the merit of overnight counts, but about whether the Scottish Parliament, in gaining new powers over the administration of elections, should have those powers constrained in respect of an election that is likely to take place in 2016.
Mr Davidson
Does the Minister believe that it is right that elected Members of Parliament should have to lobby an unelected bureaucrat about the way in which the elections should be conducted? I appreciate that the change in the rule will not apply to this year’s elections, but it is unfortunate that we have got ourselves into a position whereby the best that the Minister can suggest is that we go along and lobby a bureaucrat, no matter how worthy.
David Mundell
The hon. Gentleman will recognise that since it was first suggested that few overnight counts would take place in Scotland for the election of 5 May, the number has grown significantly, partly because of the expression of public opinion. Today’s debate and some of the eloquent contributions that we have heard will further reinforce that. Passing the amendment this evening will not move the matter forward because it will have no impact on the count.
Mrs McGuire
Would not it be a clear declaration of intent by the House to the returning officers that we expect them, even in the absence of a legal instruction that they must do it, to hold an overnight count for elections to the Parliament of Scotland?
David Mundell
I trust the Parliament of Scotland to set its own rules for the elections in 2015 or 2016. That is why the Government support devolving the power.
Mrs McGuire
I fear that the Minister may have missed my point. I recognise his legal and technical argument that the matter will be the Scottish Parliament’s responsibility in 2016, but surely some seven or eight weeks away from the potential for counts to be postponed until the next day, we should send out a message from this House that we expect an overnight count.
David Mundell
The right hon. Lady’s comments, those of my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest and others will have sent that clear message to returning officers.
John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
The point at issue is whether the Scottish Parliament should have the right to make those decisions. The Bill grants those powers. The second question is how we get what we all want: an overnight count at the forthcoming election. Does the Minister have any power under other primary or secondary legislation that he could use to make that happen so that we do not send a message, but just make it happen?
David Mundell
I note the hon. Gentleman’s comments, but I believe that we can all play a role in ensuring that it happens through the force of our argument. Again, I invite colleagues to join me and others at the meeting with the chairman of the Interim Electoral Management Board.
Stewart Hosie
The Minister is doing a stoical job in trying to defend the indefensible, but the right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) is right. Notwithstanding the fact that we want everything devolved, not just the administration, the clearest signal that we are backing public opinion in wanting an overnight count would be voting for amendment 10 and allowing the Scottish Government to make the decisions thereafter.
David Mundell
I do not know why I should be surprised at the SNP’s voting against more powers for the Scottish Parliament in an attempt at gesture politics, in which its specialises.
The SNP referred to new clause 5, on which we will vote on the third day of Committee proceedings. That would give the Scottish Parliament full legislative competence for the Scottish Parliament elections. That goes far wider than the Calman commission’s recommendation to devolve only the administration of elections. The Government gave careful consideration to the extent of the powers to be devolved on the evidence provided to the commission, and we believe that the proposals in the Bill strike the right balance. Devolving elements of responsibility for the administration earlier, as was outlined earlier, is consistent with the Calman commission’s principle—
Pete Wishart
What extra value does the Scotland Office bring to elections in Scotland?
David Mundell
This will not be the first time during the Committee’s discussions that I refer to the fact that the SNP declined to take part in the deliberations of the Calman commission, and indeed set up its own national conversation. Many issues on which SNP Members now claim outrage could have been fully debated if they had raised them at that time. The Bill is based on the recommendations of the commission.
Stewart Hosie
The Minister says that the SNP declined to take part in Calman. He will, I am sure, want to confirm for the record that the Government refused to accept all the Calman recommendations, and that the Bill does not go even as far as Calman suggested it should.
David Mundell
Given the hon. Gentleman’s thorough research into all matters on which he speaks, I am sure he has read in detail the Command Paper that accompanied the publication of the Bill, in which the Government set out their response to each and every Calman recommendation, and how, whether in legislation or otherwise, those are being taken forward.
Government amendment 29 to clause 3 is technical and ensures that when Scottish Ministers make orders about the administration of Scottish Parliament elections, they can include the type of technical supplementary provision set out in section 113 of the Scotland Act 1998. For example, Ministers could make different provisions for different purposes or make consequential or savings provisions. The amendment also ensures that any criminal penalties imposed in such an order are subject to the appropriate limits. It gives Scottish Ministers the same supplementary powers and constraints as currently apply to the Secretary of State when he makes provision on the administration of Scottish Parliament elections.
I commend clause 1 to the House and urge the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) to withdraw his amendment.
Tom Greatrex
We have had an interesting start to the Committee. The Minister will have heard the concern of Members of both sides of the House at the possibility that overnight counts will not happen. In all candour, it is not good enough for him to stand at the Dispatch Box and suggest that we go and lobby Mary Pitcaithly on Thursday on the matter. We have the opportunity now to set a position that the Minister voted for in relation to elections to this House, which is a perfectly responsible position.
The Minister would do well to listen to the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing). I apologise to her, because I was unaware that the wording of amendment 10 is borrowed from her. I hope she feels emboldened enough to vote for it. I have heard her argue against the Government on other occasions, but she has felt unable to follow through and vote against them. I hope she has the confidence to do so today.
This issue is at the heart of electoral administration. As I said, at every set of elections, electoral administrators say, “We don’t want overnight counts. We can’t do it for reason A, B, C, D, E or F.” The proof is not in what Ron Gould says, but in what we all witnessed in May last year. If we set a position, the electoral administrators can get on with it. Let us make that clear for the Scottish Parliament elections as well as for other elections.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Tom Greatrex
The Secretary of State, who is no longer in his place, might well be thinking about how long he might be able to continue as Secretary of State, and what my hon. Friend says could well be one of the reasons for that stance. If we are in a position in which an extraordinary general election has to take place, new clause 7 would provide the opportunity to deal with it in a way that is appropriate for both the Scottish and the UK Parliaments and would save us from having to conduct both elections in the same year. It deals with the problem of confusing the issues of the two different elections and should help us to avoid the problems experienced in 2007, when having two electoral systems for different Parliaments at different elections caused some confusion. It is our responsibility to do what we can to ensure that people are made aware of how their elections work and to make those elections as straightforward as possible. That is the intention behind amendment 11 and the accompanying new clause 7, which deals with extraordinary circumstances.
David Mundell
This clause amends the Representation of the People Act 1985 to provide that when a Scottish parliamentary general election and a parliamentary general election or a Scottish parliamentary general election and a European parliamentary general election are to be conducted on the same date, they should automatically be taken together. It will also allow for the polls to be combined if the returning officers so agree where polls for related areas are taken on the same day—as, for example, with a Scottish Parliament by-election and a parliamentary general election.
Amendment 11, as proposed by the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex), would remove the mandatory requirement that where the polls at a Scottish Parliament general election and a UK Parliament general election fall on the same day, the administrative arrangements must be taken together. The amendment would not stop the polls taking place on the same day, however, and it leaves returning officers with the discretion to combine the polls if they think fit to do so. Alternatively, if they are not combined, various processes such as the issue of poll cards and postal votes or voting at polling stations would have to be run side by side.
As it stands, the clause will allow poll cards, postal voting materials and polling stations to be shared. It effectively streamlines the process of organising and running the two polls on the same day, avoiding potential duplication of functions where polls held on the same day would otherwise be run in parallel and it enables overall costs to be reduced. If two polls fall on the same day, for whatever reason, electoral administrators agree that combining them is the best option. It makes it simpler for the returning officer to administer and, more importantly, makes it easier for voters to cast their votes at both polls. If the intention behind the amendment is to stop the polls taking place when both elections fall on the same day, it does not work. If the intention is to make it easier for the voter, that, too, I would suggest, does not work.
Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)
I would like to offer some anecdotal evidence from my constituency at the general election. That poll coincided with a local government poll. The arrangements were that postal ballot papers for the local election were sent out earlier than those for the general election. A number of electors expressed their confusion and asked why they had only one ballot paper when they were expecting two. The imperative of combining the two elections in one is incredibly important.
David Mundell
I thank my hon. Friend for his valuable insight based on his personal experience.
In addition, if the intention of new clause 7 is to avoid the poll at a scheduled Scottish Parliament election from falling on or close to the date of the poll for an early parliamentary general election held under clause 2 of the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill, it does not work.
Mr Frank Doran (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
I appreciate that the clause will not apply to the next Scottish election, but there are difficulties in Aberdeen where we have the forthcoming vote on AV and a vote on the Scottish parliamentary elections, which require two ballot papers. Sadly, one of the Liberal Democrat councillors died recently, as a result of which a by-election is also likely to be held on 5 May. The electorate in Aberdeen are thus looking at four separate polling formulae under different systems. The Minister used the word “streamline” earlier, so will he help me by explaining how we are going to streamline the elections in those sorts of circumstances?
David Mundell
The arrangements for the conduct of the Scottish Parliament election and the AV referendum allow for a council by-election to be held on the same day. As I understand it, that by-election will take place on the basis of one form of the alternative vote system.
David Mundell
On the specific case that the hon. Gentleman mentions, representations can be made to the returning officer, because the polls are not required to take place on the same day. The by-election poll does not have to take place on 5 May; it is a decision for the returning officer. That by-election poll should also take place in a separate polling station, although possibly within the same building.
Mr Doran
As I understand the current law on local government by-elections, the election must be held within three months of the death or resignation of the councillor—except when there is also a UK parliamentary or Scottish parliamentary election. In this particular case, except at extraordinary expense, the returning officer does not have much option.
David Mundell
I think the returning officer has some option, but the hon. Gentleman raises an important and relevant point about the multiple electoral systems operated in Scotland. I had just mentioned that Scottish council by-elections, which are another example of polls that could be held on the same day as the AV referendum, take place under a form of the alternative vote rather than the single transferable vote.
Jim McGovern
Is it not the case that we are effectively putting a price on democracy by saying that it is simply cheaper to have all the polls on the same day?
David Mundell
I do not believe that is an accurate summation of the position. The clause allows for the combining of polls and the amendment suggests that they should not be combined. However, I do not accept that the amendment is successful in that regard.
If new clause 7 is designed to avoid having a poll at a scheduled Scottish Parliament election following on or close to the date of the poll for an early parliamentary election held under clause 2 of the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill, it does not work, as I have said. By its very nature, an early parliamentary general election held under clause 2 will take place at short notice following either a motion of the House that there should be such an election, or at the end of the 14-day period after a motion of no confidence.
In the unlikely event that a Prime Minister were to decide on a campaign period of at least six weeks before the date of poll at the early parliamentary general election, which would be the minimum to ensure that the Scottish Parliament had not already dissolved, the parties taking part in the Scottish parliamentary general election would have already gone to significant expense in preparing campaign literature and making other arrangements, as would returning officers. All that would be wasted if the Scottish Parliament then decided to change the date of poll. Returning officers might also have started the nomination processes and, depending on timing, might have already entered into contracts for printing and accommodation, the costs of which would, again, be wasted.
Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)
Surely the logical conclusion of the Minister’s argument is that we should have four-year rather than five-year fixed-term Parliaments. Would that not be an easier way in which to solve the problem?
David Mundell
As the hon. Lady will know, what she suggests was debated extensively in the Chamber during the passage of the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill, and the House delivered its view then. As she will also know, last Thursday the Scottish Parliament voted unanimously to ask the United Kingdom Government to move the date of the Scottish parliamentary election in 2015 to avoid a clash with the United Kingdom general election. The motion stated that the Scottish Parliament
“notes the potential clash of UK and Scottish general election dates in 2015; invites the UK Government to set the next Scottish general election after 5 May 2011 for Thursday 5 May 2016, and looks forward to UK Government consultation on a legislative provision that would set apart UK and Scottish general election dates on a permanent basis.”
I am sure that Opposition Members welcome the fact that the coalition Government have consulted the Scottish Parliament fully on the matter, because it was raised in a number of debates.
Tom Greatrex
Surely the Minister accepts that the Scottish Parliament felt the need to come up with that motion only because of the potential provisions of the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill. If the Bill had provided for a four-year fixed term, there would be no problem. The Government still have an opportunity to revisit that possibility, and I hope that they will take it.
David Mundell
The issue of the length of a fixed-term Parliament was well argued during the passage of the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill, and the fixed term that Parliament has determined is five years. The Government have therefore embarked on an active discussion of the matter with the Scottish Parliament.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
My maths is not always fantastic, but I suspect that in 2020 we shall encounter exactly the same problem, because the Westminster Parliament will last from 2015 until 2020, and the Scottish Parliament will last from 2016 to 2020. Are the Government considering a permanent extension of the Scottish Parliament’s term to five years?
David Mundell
As the hon. Gentleman will know, a number of possibilities have been suggested, and the Government have said that after the Scottish parliamentary election, there will be a consultation on them. Some Members of the Scottish Parliament have said that they would like it to serve a five-year term, and that view will obviously be considered.
Tom Greatrex
I thank the Minister for giving way to me again. He is being characteristically generous. Surely he accepts that there would be no need for so much consultation and juggling with all the possible ways of dealing with the problem if a four-year fixed term were proposed for this Parliament as well as the Scottish Parliament. He has an opportunity to make that case to his colleagues in Government, so that the issue can be dealt with when the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill returns to this House. Will he take the opportunity to make sure that that point is made?
David Mundell
I see no purpose in a rerun of the debate on the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill. The views expressed by the hon. Gentleman have been expressed by others, but they have not prevailed in votes in the House. The Government have set out what I consider to be the strong arguments for a five-year term for this Parliament. Because of the complicated devolution settlement in the United Kingdom, which has its own nuances—I welcome them, because they accommodate the different needs of different parts of the United Kingdom—consequential changes would inevitably be required. We have discussed the changes required in the timing of the Scottish parliamentary election and the best way of resolving the issue in a mature way through a dialogue with the presiding officer and party leaders in the Scottish Parliament.
Mrs McGuire
Does the Minister not accept that in trying to extend the life of this Parliament to a term that bears no relationship to any other element of our electoral process, the Government have created a series of problems not just for themselves but for other parts of the democratic process? The result has been a number of ill-considered consequences to which the Minister and the Government attempt to apply Elastoplast every time they encounter them. This is a very expensive way of providing a lifeboat for the coalition Government to take them through to 2015.
David Mundell
I would take what the right hon. Lady says a good deal more seriously had the last Labour Government not extended their own life to virtually the last minute of a five-year term. That opened up the possibility of another five-year term for this Parliament, leading to a coincidence of elections with the Scottish Parliament elections in 2015 that would have taken place in an unstructured and unthought-out way. The Bill has dealt with the possible repercussions.
Mrs McGuire
Will the Minister reflect on the facts? There have been two five-year Parliaments since 1992, one under the former Conservative Prime Minister John Major and the other under a Labour Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown). The Minister’s argument has no credibility. He and the Government have created a series of consequences by trying to introduce a five-year fixed term for the current Parliament. Everyone else is being forced to alter the ways in which they operate in order to suit the coalition Government.
David Mundell
I am afraid that that is merely a smokescreen for the fact that there could have been a coincidence between the Scottish parliamentary and Westminster elections in any event, and that arrangements would have had to be made to deal with it.
Thomas Docherty
The Minister said earlier that the Government had given some consideration to the idea of moving the Scottish parliamentary elections to 2021. He will be aware that the next local government elections are scheduled for 2021. It may interest Members to know that several years ago, in the Scottish Parliament, a certain David Mundell introduced a Bill to decouple the Scottish Parliament from the local government elections. Perhaps the Minister will tell us what his position on the issue is now.
David Mundell
My maths is better than the hon. Gentleman’s. I knew that already, and I knew that these were exactly the sort of matters on which discussion and dialogue were needed. It is much better for that discussion and dialogue to take place in a structured way than for it to take place on the ad hoc basis that would have been required if there had been a coincidence of elections on the basis of the arrangements that existed before the introduction of the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill. That Bill allows these matters to be addressed, and discussion and dialogue to take place. I believe that the mature way in which that dialogue with the Scottish Parliament has taken place reflects well on the coalition Government.
Ann McKechin
Does not this debate show that a draft Fixed-term Parliaments Bill, which would have allowed consultation to take place between all the relevant bodies affected by the legislation in advance of it being brought to this House, would have been the most sensible way forward?
David Mundell
Once Parliament had determined the nature of the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill, the appropriate thing to do was to enter into the mature and sensible dialogue that we have had with the Scottish Parliament. I am sure that, like me, the hon. Lady will welcome the fact that the motion in the Scottish Parliament was passed unanimously. The Government will take forward the wish of the Scottish Parliament to ensure that the next Scottish Parliament election after this one will take place on 5 May 2016, on the basis that voters going to the polls on 5 May 2011 will know that they will be electing their MSPs to serve for five years.
I do not feel that the amendment would achieve the objectives that it sets out to achieve. It could lead to a lot of wasted expenditure for candidates, parties and returning officers, and I accordingly commend clause 2 to the Committee and urge the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West to withdraw his amendment.
Tom Greatrex
We have had an interesting debate on these issues. I would just note again that, if there had been a proposal for a four-year fixed-term Parliament, none of this would have been a problem. That would probably have been a more sensible route to take, and it is still open to the Government to deal with that matter again in the weeks to come. In the light of what the Minister has said, we will withdraw the amendment at this stage and perhaps reflect on the matter again on Report. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 3
Supplementary and transitional provision about elections
Amendment made: 29, page 3, line 11, at end insert—
‘( ) In section 113 of the 1998 Act (subordinate legislation: scope of powers) for subsection (1) substitute—
“(1) References in this section to a power are—
(a) to an open power,
(b) to any other power to make subordinate legislation conferred by this Act which is exercisable by Her Majesty in Council or by a Minister of the Crown, and
(c) except in subsection (9), to the power of the Scottish Ministers to make an order under section 12,
and include a power as extended by this section.”’.—(David Mundell.)
Clause 3, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 4 and 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 6
Bills: statements as to legislative competence
Tom Greatrex
We have had the opportunity to discuss a number of amendments with interested parties, including the Law Society of Scotland. This amendment relates to the statements of legislative competence that are made in the Scottish Parliament. The Minister will be aware that, before introducing a Bill in the Scottish Parliament, it is the responsibility of Ministers there to issue a statement of legislative competence. It is also the responsibility of the Presiding Officer to make a similar declaration. The amendment deals with a situation in which amendments are tabled to such Bills, either by Ministers or by Members, including to private Bills. For example, the Bill on the Forth road crossing is a private Bill. Many Members’ Bills are also dealt with in the Scottish Parliament.
It is important that, when the Scottish Parliament deals with legislation, it is aware that it is competent so to do. It is also important that the measures that come before it are appropriate. That has not always been the case for amendments, however. Our proposal also deals with Government amendments. A number of Bills, particularly technical Bills, have had a whole series of Government amendments tabled for which no declaration of competence has been made. It has therefore fallen to the Law Officers to consider those issues, post-stage 3 and before Royal Assent. Our proposal would enable that problem to be rectified, and would introduce a degree of consistency to the arrangements. This would bring confidence and competence to the work of the Scottish Parliament when legislative matters were brought before it.
David Mundell
As the law stands, only those members of the Scottish Government in charge of a Bill have to make a statement on its legislative competence when introducing a Bill in the Scottish Parliament. Clause 6, which amends section 31 of the Scotland Act 1998, will ensure that anyone who introduces a Bill in the Scottish Parliament is confident that it is within the Parliament’s legislative competence and prepared to make a statement to that effect.
The Scottish Parliament’s Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee supports the amendment, agreeing with the Calman commission that a statement would provide a helpful and public indication that the legislative competence of the Bill had been carefully considered by those introducing it. The Scottish Parliament endorsed the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee’s report on 29 September 2010.
Amendment 12 would require that the Member promoting the Bill must make a statement, when or before every amendment to a Bill is lodged in the Scottish Parliament, that, in his opinion, the Bill, if amended in accordance with the amendment, will be within the legislative competence of the Parliament. That would make the Scottish parliamentary system overly bureaucratic and complex and it is, in my view, unnecessary. Should there be any concerns about the legislative competence of a Bill passed by the Scottish Parliament, which might have been substantially amended during its passage, UK and Scottish Law Officers may refer questions of competency to the Supreme Court for decision under section 33 of the Scotland Act 1998.
The Calman commission also considered the argument that the Presiding Officer should state his reasons when making a positive statement about the legislative competence of a Bill—that is, a statement that the Bill is, in his view, within competence. This was rejected on the basis that it can be relatively easy to give reasons for thinking that a Bill is outside competence, which the Standing Orders currently require the Presiding Officer to do, but more difficult to give reasons why it is within competence. The commission’s other main doubt was that exposing to public view any grey areas in relation to competence could provide ammunition to those who were politically opposed to the Bill, either during its passage or later, by providing the basis for a legal challenge. As the Calman commission reported, it would remain open to the Presiding Officer to add reasons to any positive statement about the legislative competence of the Bill, but concluded that it was unlikely that he would do so. On that basis, I urge the hon. Gentleman not to press his amendment to a Division and to support clause 6.
Tom Greatrex
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment, although we reserve the right to revisit the matter on Report.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 7
Partial suspension of Acts subject to scrutiny by Supreme Court
David Mundell
We have heard some unusual contributions from the Scottish National party, in this and other debates, but declaring amendments that the Advocate-General has published on his website to be secret is one of the more extreme. Indeed, I understand that there was an exchange in the Scottish Parliament last week during which, while protesting about the secrecy of the amendments, the First Minister had to concede that he had seen them.
I would agree with the hon. Gentleman that we are debating important issues, in that they relate to the laws and judicial system of Scotland, and that is why, in relation to proposed amendments to section 57(2) of the 1998 Act, the Government have adopted a consultative approach. He will be aware that the Advocate-General set up an advisory group to look into the issue. That group came back with certain views, which led to the formation of the clauses concerned, which are now the subject of further discussion and debate. They are not being moved in Committee in this House and are not part of our consideration of clause 7, and they are not referred to by amendments 13, 14 or 15, standing in the name of the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex).
Pete Wishart
The Scottish Parliament’s Bill Committee has expressed great concern, because it cannot make any judgment on those secret amendments in its legislative consent motion. If those amendments are not to be introduced in Committee in this place, when will they be introduced? When will we, as elected Members, have the opportunity to debate and discuss them? What is the process for introducing those amendments? [Interruption.]
David Mundell
The hon. Member for Midlothian (Mr Hamilton) tempts me to answer that it is a secret, but it is not. Rather, it is part of the full legislative scrutiny of the Bill. As I suggested earlier, and as the Secretary of State’s written ministerial statement suggested, we take the issues raised by the Committee, and the specific issues raised in relation to the clause, very seriously.
Cathy Jamieson
It might be helpful for those who are not au fait with all the technicalities if the Minister confirms that these specific clauses are not dealt with in the legislative consent motion that will be debated in the Scottish Parliament on Thursday, and that a further LCM will be required.
David Mundell
That is a helpful intervention, because the LCM that will come before the Scottish Parliament this week relates to the Bill as published, and as scrutinised by that Parliament’s Committee—and also by this House. The LCM the Committee promotes suggests that if there are significant changes to the Bill—and, of course, the proposed amendments to section 57(2) of the 1998 Act would be significant—there would be another legislative consent process with the Scottish Parliament. The Government are clear in that regard. Also, as I understand it, the Scottish Government do not support the LCM promoted by the Committee.
Pete Wishart
When and where is the Minister going to introduce these measures, if, indeed, he is going to introduce them?
David Mundell
As I have suggested—as have the “secret” ministerial statement the Secretary of State made last week, the “secret” LCM Committee report, and the “secret” clauses that are on the website—the coalition Government are engaged in consultation and dialogue on these clauses. Indeed, so generous are we in that regard, that we will even take on board in our considerations the points the hon. Gentleman makes on these matters, but these amendments are not being moved at this stage. There is a further very significant point, which I would have thought would have satisfied the hon. Gentleman given the respect he has for the Scottish Parliament and its views: a further LCM would be required from the Scottish Parliament if significant amendments were being made in relation to section 57(2).
Stewart Hosie
Given the time scales, will it in fact be the next Scottish Parliament after the election in May that will have to consider a further LCM, were one to be requested if such amendments were going to be considered?
David Mundell
The hon. Gentleman is very astute: yes, there will be a Scottish Parliament election on 5 May, and, yes, the current Parliament will be dissolved on 22 March. It is therefore very likely that there will be another Scottish Parliament in place, but this coalition Government respect that Parliament and whatever Government emerge of whatever political colour, and we will engage in a constructive dialogue with whoever is in power in Holyrood.
On the Opposition amendments, currently entire Bills of the Scottish Parliament can be delayed, possibly for months, should just a single provision be referred to the Supreme Court to determine whether it is within legislative competence. Clause 7 of this Bill will amend the 1998 Act, not in the nefarious way the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) suggests, but in a positive way, to prevent unnecessary delays to Bills where the majority of provisions are considered to be within the competence of the Scottish Parliament. The affected Bill would be submitted for Royal Assent by the Presiding Officer, while the disputed provisions would not come into force until the Supreme Court had reached a decision and Scottish Ministers had made the appropriate commencement order. The UK Government believe this is the most appropriate and sensible method of helping to ensure that the work of the Scottish Parliament runs as smoothly as possible. Members will wish to note that the Scotland Bill Committee in the Scottish Parliament accepted this provision, but asks for consideration to be made of the legislative procedure used. We will review that recommendation carefully.
The amendments would require the Law Officer making the limited reference, in addition to the Presiding Officer, to publish notice of the reference in the Edinburgh Gazette and also in the London Gazette and Belfast Gazette. Clause 7 already requires the Presiding Officer to publish notice of a reference in the Edinburgh Gazette and in such other ways as he considers appropriate. It does not prevent the Presiding Officer from publishing notices in the London Gazette or Belfast Gazette, or in any other paper or on any website, or in any other way he should wish—even secret ones.
Thomas Docherty
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can satisfy a curiosity of mine. What is the Edinburgh Gazette, and where may one attain a copy of it?
David Mundell
The Edinburgh Gazette is one of the few newspapers in Scotland in which the hon. Gentleman does not appear. It is a formal publication in which formal Government, local authority and other governmental notices appear. I understand that it can be subscribed to, although it is not regularly available in most newsagents in Scotland. There is also a person with the title of the Queen’s Printer for Scotland, who may also publish notice of the reference in such ways as they consider appropriate.
Pete Wishart
Is it not possible that the Queen’s Printer may be abolished under the Public Bodies Bill? What would happen then?
David Mundell
I will look into the hon. Gentleman’s specific query and write to him on it.
A requirement on the Law Officer to publish the notice of the reference would lead to three different people being responsible for publishing the same notices, and could be considered overly complicated and unnecessary. I therefore urge the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) to withdraw the amendments and to agree to clause 7. I hope I have been able to ease the concerns of the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire in respect of possible future amendments to section 57(2) by confirming that the Advocate-General has set up an expert group to look into the issue, and that the group came forward with proposals that were put into the public domain and shared with the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament Bill Committee. They are still under consideration, which is why they are not being introduced into this House; we accept that these are important issues on which there should be full discussion, but that discussion is not yet at a sufficiently advanced stage for it to be appropriate to introduce amendments. On that basis, I commend clause 7 as it stands to the House.
Tom Greatrex
I am disappointed in some of the Minister’s responses. I am aware that there is no preclusion on publication in the London Gazette or Belfast Gazette, but, in the interest of transparency, it would be a step forward if the publication were extended, particularly given the issues under consideration. He also rightly said that this means that at least two people have responsibility and perhaps we may consider a further amendment subsequently to deal with that point.
Pete Wishart
I accept that, but it is our strong view that all firearms legislation should be devolved to the Scottish Parliament because it would enable us to ensure that we could deal with all the issues relating to firearms.
David Mundell
It would be helpful if the hon. Gentleman defined who “our” is. As he knows, the Scottish Government have tabled their own draft legislative consent motion in the Scottish Parliament, in which they agree with the clause and do not suggest that there should be any further devolution of powers in relation to air weapons.
Pete Wishart
As I said at the start of my remarks, we welcome the clause. It is a real transfer of power—one of the few transfers of powers in the Bill. Of course we support the clause. I have argued consistently that our intention is to improve and strengthen the Bill to deal with some important issues. If our amendment is accepted, we have an opportunity to deal not only with air weapons, but with firearms in their totality. Surely that is a better situation to be in than having responsibility for just one aspect.
Pete Wishart
I know that I will get the same sort of question again, but I will give way to the Minister.
David Mundell
I do not want to be picky, but in the LCM that the Scottish Government have lodged, they suggest a significant number of amendments to the Bill and state their views on re-reservation and so on, but they are clear that they support the clause as it stands.
Michael Connarty
I wish that we could expunge from the memories of the people of Scotland, particularly central Scotland, the fact that a licensed gun owner used guns that were then allowed to create the carnage at Dunblane. It is not wrong to say that by regulating and banning the possession of handguns we did something very positive. There are times when controls are needed. In the United States of America, people can buy what are basically machine guns over the counter; we cannot, thank goodness. This obviously has a lot to do with the person who misuses the weapon, but it is also about its availability in the first place.
I hope that whatever regime is introduced in Scotland will be strict. A regular firearm user who is a hunter recently came to see me about relicensing and could show me that they had a strongroom that was totally secure, which meant that access to their guns would be very difficult for anyone. Their licence was approved by the local police, and it was a very thorough operation. I do not know whether that operation could be replicated for airguns, but that would stop a lot of the illicit possession. It is much easier for the local community around the area to know that someone is misusing such a gun if they possess it without a licence, in a similar way as applies to the possession of ordinary guns. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun agrees with that.
I hope that the Minister is listening to the support for these small amendments, which are useful and helpful. With apologies to those who aspire to have this in Scotland because we are Scottish, there are some serious types of airguns that should be licensed universally on an all-UK basis. That will not undermine the ability of our communities to know that people who have unlicensed airguns can be immediately notified to the police to have those firearms removed.
David Mundell
I welcome you to the Chair, Mr Benton.
I can assure the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty) that nothing that the Government put forward this evening is in any way determined by the fact that these proceedings are televised. I hope that we are bringing forward a reasoned response to important issues that have been raised in the debate on these amendments.
I wanted, during this discussion, to clarify the SNP’s position, and I am sure that the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) will understand why. I think that the logical explanation is that we now have devolution in the SNP, with a London SNP that is proposing an amendment to clause 11 and an Edinburgh SNP that is in agreement with it as it stands. In those circumstances, I find it extremely odd that the hon. Gentleman suggested that he was going to push this matter to a Division. He will have seen the Scottish Parliament’s Scotland Bill Committee report, which, in paragraphs 142 to 144, confirms that it was a unanimous view of that Committee that clause 11 should be supported. It states:
“We note that this excludes those air rifles, air guns or air pistols which are of a type declared by rules made by the Secretary of State under section 53 of the 1968 Act to be ‘specially dangerous’. These particular weapons are already banned and we see no reason why this would change.”
The Committee went on unanimously to recommend support for clause 11.
Dr Whiteford
I have here a copy of the Scotland Bill Committee report, which came out last week. If the right hon. Gentleman looks at paragraph 142 and the footnote attached to it, he will see that in fact there was a division on that point and the view was not unanimous at all.
David Mundell
The hon. Lady will also be aware of the text of the LCM to be put forward by the Scottish Government. Her Scottish Parliament colleague, Fiona Hyslop, kindly sent it to me, listing several clauses to which the Scottish Government want changes made. Clause 11 is clearly stated not to be one of them.
Dr Whiteford
May I once again draw the Minister’s attention to paragraph 142 and footnote 28, which clearly show that two members of the Committee, Brian Adam and Tricia Marwick, caused a split on the issue? Will he acknowledge that for the record?
David Mundell
I acknowledge for the record that the vote took place, but I also point out to the hon. Lady annex A, where the minority views on the issues on which her colleagues felt particularly strongly are set out, clearly stating their disagreement.
Stewart Hosie
This is not good enough. The Minister said that the Bill Committee was unanimous, but the footnote makes it clear that it was not—there was a division and a split vote. Will he now take the opportunity to correct what he said so that the Committee is not inadvertently misled by his earlier remarks?
David Mundell
I certainly would not want the Committee to be misled by anything that I said. I referred to the paragraphs in the Scotland Bill Committee report, where it is clear that the Committee formed the view that it did. It is also clear that the Scottish Government have come forward with an LCM that supports this clause as it stands.
Clause 11 devolves a power to the Scottish Parliament in relation to the regulation of air weapons. This would enable the Scottish Parliament to legislate, if it wished, to create a separate regulatory regime for air weapons in Scotland. Members will wish to note that, as I said, the Bill Committee in the Scottish Parliament accepted the provision, and we wait to see the outcome of the debate on its LCM and the LCM proposed by the Scottish Government.
After careful consideration, the Calman commission concluded that firearms law should not be devolved in full. It is generally acknowledged that the UK already has some of the toughest firearm controls in the world and that the current unified regime represents the best way of tackling the problems that exist in relation to armed crime. The commission did recommend devolving power over a specific category—air weapons. The Government agree with this recommendation. Air weapons are the type of guns most often involved in firearms offences, and given the nature of their misuse most frequently to cause criminal damage, as we have heard, they are best controlled at the level closest to those affected. Reference was made to the specifics of the recent incident in Auchinleck, which demonstrated and reaffirmed the continuing concern in Scotland about the use of air weapons.
Cathy Jamieson
Given the Minister’s comments, will he make it clear for the record that if the clause goes through and the Bill is passed, a future Scottish Parliament could, if it wished, ban air weapons completely?
David Mundell
The hon. Lady makes an important point that also relates to the concerns of my hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown). In fact, passing the clause will not in itself ban air weapons of the category defined in Scotland. That is a point that I want to make to my hon. Friend.
Cathy Jamieson
I appreciate that, but the point I was trying to get at, although perhaps I did not make myself clear enough, was whether, if the Bill is passed, the Scottish Parliament could enact a complete ban on air weapons if it chose to do so.
David Mundell
The Scottish Parliament will be able to enact a complete ban on air weapons that fall within the definition. The important point for colleagues such as my hon. Friend is that those who do not agree with that course of action will be able to argue their case in the Scottish Parliament. The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) set out a strong case on the basis of her considerable experience, respected views and strong beliefs. I felt that my hon. Friend also set out a strong view, although Opposition Members and indeed Members of my party in the Scottish Parliament might not subscribe to it. It is important that people who hold such views move the argument on to the Scottish Parliament if the clause is agreed to, because that is the appropriate place for the debate to take place.
Michael Connarty
Will the Minister clarify the other point that he made? If I understood him correctly, he said that the air weapons that are not covered by the Bill, which the SNP is trying to amend so that they have power over such weapons, are already banned. The only thing that could be done differently would be to unban them. The SNP is therefore asking for the power to unban weapons that are banned. Is that correct?
David Mundell
The hon. Gentleman makes a useful intervention. The division that took place in the Scotland Bill Committee in the Scottish Parliament, to which we have referred, was on exactly that point.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
Does my hon. Friend agree that it would make a nonsense of all firearms laws if the Scottish Parliament banned air weapons completely, because people would still have legitimate licences for serious firearms, while airguns would be banned? Does he agree that that would be a complete anomaly?
David Mundell
I do not accept that it is inevitable that the clause or the Bill will lead to an anomalous situation. As I have said, it is for those who advocate a ban to make their case and for those who believe that it would be a retrograde step to make theirs.
As the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun said of her time as Justice Minister—I am sure this is also the case with the current Justice Minister—the Scottish Government need to have a close working relationship with the Home Office and the Home Secretary to ensure that there is a coherent interlinking of the measures determined here and in Scotland, just as with any devolved matter. I assure the right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) that there have been discussions on all aspects of the Bill with the relevant Departments. The Secretary of State for Scotland has met the Home Secretary. We are clear that the clause will provide the Scottish Parliament with the powers it needs to deal with air weapons, as proposed by the Calman commission.
Mrs McGuire
Will there be a clear definition of what exactly is understood by “air weapons”? It is not the discussions that are important, but the definition and the clarity of the legislation.
David Mundell
I will come on to that later in my remarks. We are satisfied that the definition, as set out in this legislation, is appropriate to deal with the issues raised by the Calman commission.
Cathy Jamieson
Given my concern about BB guns, will the Minister answer the question that I posed about whether he has had any discussions with the Home Office on that matter? Is there a way to ensure that the Scottish Parliament can deal with that problem?
David Mundell
The hon. Lady has just under three weeks to raise that issue in the Scottish Parliament in her capacity as a Member of that Parliament. On a UK basis, I am happy to undertake to raise with the Home Secretary the concerns that she has set out this evening.
Stewart Hosie
That answer was interesting. Presumably it means that BB weapons, such as those that have been described, are not covered by the legislation, in terms of being devolved to the Scottish Parliament. Will the Minister confirm that that is the case?
David Mundell
My understanding is that the Scottish Parliament would at this stage be able to take forward its own proposals in relation to a gun or implement of that type. As I understand it, we are not at the stage of having a definition for the weapon in relation to the incident, but there are implements of that nature for which the Scottish Parliament already has the power to make provision, as the hon. Gentleman knows.
Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)
Will the Minister confirm that BB guns are covered by the 1968 Act?
David Mundell
There are definitions in the 1968 Act of certain weapons. A BB gun is not defined as a type of gun in that regard. It would be within the remit of the Scottish Parliament to make provisions in that regard as part of its ongoing responsibilities.
The clause will allow the Scottish Parliament the freedom to design its own controls over air weapons, while allowing the UK Government to retain a consistent regulatory framework across the UK for the most dangerous weapons. That will send the clear signal that the UK does not tolerate deadly weapons. As I have said, it is important to note that we are considering not what law on air weapons should apply in Scotland, but who should be responsible for taking that decision. The clause will not automatically create a separate regime in Scotland, but it will give the Scottish Parliament responsibility for that decision. Any consideration of an alternative regime will require the Scottish Government, the Scottish Parliament and other stakeholders to listen to all the views represented in Scotland and, crucially, to work through any cross-border issues that arise.
Amendment 39 would ensure that the 1968 Act continues to apply until the Scottish Parliament puts a new regulatory regime in place.
The Temporary Chair (Mr Joe Benton)
Order. I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but the background noise is getting too high and it is difficult to hear. I want to hear the Minister.
David Mundell
Thank you, Mr Benton.
I assure my hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds that the control of air weapons in Scotland will not fall into a state of limbo. By devolving power, we are not disapplying the present regime, but simply allowing the Scottish Parliament to change the laws that currently apply to air weapons, should it so wish. Until such a time, the existing rules will apply. I therefore suggest to my hon. Friend that his amendment is unnecessary.
Amendment 17 would prevent the Scottish Parliament from putting any controls on air weapons intended for use in recognised international sporting competitions. The Government recognise the legitimacy and responsibility of those who take part in safe and undoubtedly well-regulated use of air weapons for target shooting purposes. We fully accept that individuals engaged in such activity are highly unlikely to misuse their weapons.
I also understand concerns that devolved powers could be used in such a way as to prevent such competitions from taking place in Scotland and that that would affect disciplines in the Commonwealth games. Although I understand that the air pistols and air rifles used at that high level of competition are relatively expensive and built to high specification for their grip and accuracy, it would be difficult in practice to distinguish those intended for such use from other high-spec weapons that are used in lesser competitions or for hunting small game or for vermin control.
The Calman commission took the view, and the coalition Government agree, that there is a case for air weapons being controlled at the most local level. We must accept that the natural result of devolution is that separate rules may apply in different areas of the UK. Apart from the question of principle, it would be confusing and potentially difficult to split air weapons into different categories when there is no clear difference in muscle energy between a gun used for competition shooting at an international level and one used for lesser competitions or other sporting purposes.
Amendment 38 would restrict the power of the Scottish Parliament to air pistols and air rifles with a muzzle energy below 6 foot/lbs. That means that any air rifle that has a muzzle energy between 6 and 12 foot/lbs would not be subject to any new controls that the Scottish Parliament tried to introduce, but remain subject to the Firearms Act 1968. Most modern air rifles fall within that range. Anything above what is already declared to be “specially dangerous” by rules made by the Secretary of State under section 53 of the 1968 Act becomes subject to the requirement to hold and abide by a firearms certificate under section 1 and will not be devolved. It is right to retain a common framework across Great Britain for the most lethal weapons. As I have already said, I see no reason to try to split responsibility for the lower powered air weapons that we are devolving in the Bill. Calman did not recommend that, and it is wrong that the Scottish Parliament should not be able to exercise control over the majority of air rifles in use today.
Amendment 3 would omit the words in the exception to the reservation, which provides for the Home Secretary to retain powers for declaring air weapons “specially dangerous”. Those are subject to stricter controls because they need to be tackled on a consistent basis throughout the United Kingdom. The effect of declaring an air weapon “specially dangerous” is that it becomes subject to the requirement to hold and abide by a firearms certificate under section 1 of the 1968 Act. Currently, air pistols that generate a muzzle energy in excess of 6 foot/lbs and other air weapons that generate a muzzle energy in excess of 12 foot/lbs are declared to be specially dangerous for those purposes.
In essence, air weapons that are the subject of such rules or orders are classified as firearms under section 1 or prohibited weapons under section 5. Since the regulation of such firearms and prohibited weapons will remain reserved, as recommended by Calman, it follows that the power to decide what is a section 1 firearm or a prohibited weapon should also remain reserved.
Amendment 18 would address cross-border issues, which several hon. Members raised. We should remind ourselves that the Bill is simply devolving the power to regulate air weapons—not setting out the framework for regulation itself. Any discussions about future operational challenges are therefore largely hypothetical at this stage. How far any alternative regime will differ from that which applies in England and Wales has yet to be determined. As I said, I encourage my hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds to try to ensure that the debate that he set out this evening moves to the Scottish Parliament, if it is to consider those matters. Of course I accept that there could well be differences in its approach to controls, but that is a natural consequence of devolution.
The Scottish Government will, of course, need to consider carefully how any new controls in Scotland will dovetail with the law in England and Wales, Europe and the rest of the world. I am sure that they will consult widely if they choose to change the law. If the Scottish Government introduced licensing for air weapons, they would need to consider what form of temporary licence a visitor from outside Scotland needed on or before entry. Any such temporary licence could not be checked if the visitor’s first port of call was England or Wales, so the Scottish Government would need to think about how they might enforce such a requirement.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
Will my right hon. Friend address the point that I made before he concludes? What will happen to those people who currently have air weapons that are perfectly legal but would become illegal if the Scottish Parliament changed the rules? Would they be compensated?
David Mundell
It would be entirely for the Scottish Parliament to determine what regime it introduced if it created a restriction. It would not be a matter for the coalition Government. There was no suggestion of compensation from this Parliament or Government.
I recognise the strength of feeling of hon. Members of all parties on the issue. As I said, there are important implementation matters to be considered, alongside awareness raising and education to ensure that those who currently hold and use air weapons lawfully are not unwittingly affected. However, I would argue that these are questions for the Scottish Parliament. Today, we are considering whether to support the recommendation of the Calman commission, which the Government have included in the Bill and has the support of the Scottish Parliament Committee. I therefore urge hon. Members not to press their amendments to a vote.
Tom Greatrex
I am disappointed with some of the content of the Minister’s response. In respect of amendment 17, I understand that the Scottish Parliament and the SNP—whether the Edinburgh SNP or the London SNP—is included in a cross-party understanding of what is required to ensure that the Commonwealth games are properly protected. I am sure that that will endure.
I am more confident about that than on the Minister’s comments on amendment 18. The amendment is intended to be helpful to the UK Government, which has a responsibility to ensure cohesion, so that things do not slip through the net.
I was concerned with the Minister’s hesitation on BB guns in response to my hon. Friends the Members for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) and for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell). They highlighted the point on definitions that I tried to make at Home Office questions earlier. I hope that he will reflect properly on that prior to Report, particularly in the light of the points made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire).
I am conscious that a number of hon. Members are in the Chamber and I am sure they have other things to get on with this evening. I hope the Minister reflects on my proposals. If he is unable to change his mind, we may return to them on Report. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment proposed: 3, page 7, line 27, leave out from ‘1968’ to end of line 34.—(Pete Wishart.)
Question put, That the amendment be made.
The Temporary Chair (Mr Joe Benton)
That is not really a point of order to which the Chair can respond, but I will allow the Minister to clarify the position.
Stewart Hosie
Further to that point of order, Mr Benton. The Minister has generously offered to e-mail those secret amendments to the Front-Bench spokesman of the Labour party. I take it that he will want to communicate with the whole Committee, so placing the amendments in the Library would be more helpful.
David Mundell
I am happy to accede to that request, Mr Benton.
Clause 12
Insolvency
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Tom Greatrex
I support clause 12, but I have a couple of questions about its implications. As the Committee will be aware, this clause and attendant issues were the subject of detailed scrutiny by the Calman commission. It was corporate insolvency practitioners who pressed the case on that commission for introducing such a clause, which effectively re-reserves some aspects of corporate insolvency work.
The Scottish National party has responded with a blanket, knee-jerk reaction against the proposal, because it does not believe that powers should be re-reserved. The Labour party takes a different view. The Calman commission examined the range of powers as a whole, and determined which, in Scotland’s best interests, should be devolved and which should continue to be reserved. As we all know, it concluded that there should be some changes, but not too many. We accept that recommendation, and also the comments of the LCM Committee, but the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations—from which Members will no doubt have received a briefing—has expressed concern about the implications for registered social landlords. Housing policy is, of course, devolved.
I am aware that, as no registered social landlords have been affected yet, the position is theoretical. However, on 25 February the Secretary of State told the convenor of the LCM Committee that the Government did not intend to cause any difficulty relating to housing policy, that they would consider introducing section 104 orders when that was necessary and appropriate, and that discussions were taking place between the Scotland Office and the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations. May I ask the Minister to confirm his intentions, so that we can ensure that the federation’s concern is not used unduly as an excuse to oppose the clause merely because it re-reserves a power, and that it is being dealt with?
Michael Connarty
Allow me to recommend that optimism to the hon. Lady, who is new to the House. That optimism, which I have carried with me for 18 years, might stand her in good stead if she survives as long as I have in this place. They do say—I am quoting Gramsci, the socialist—that pessimism of the intellect should breed optimism of the will. She will certainly require that again and again if she sits on the SNP Benches in this place, I can tell her that.
I am deeply involved in fighting a case involving a bad insolvency in my constituency. In a sense, I have had to step over a line that I have drawn for myself since devolution, where I have had to say, “This is not a matter for me: I have a remit as a UK parliamentarian and my colleagues”—Members of the Scottish Parliament—“have a remit devolved to them.” I try to keep the two apart quite strictly. I try to encourage devolved organisations to write not to me but to my MSP colleagues, and to engage them properly in the process. I was involved in the scrutiny of bankruptcy in Scotland legislation here in Westminster between ’92 and ’97, and knew quite a lot about that. I therefore find the current environment frustrating, as many companies are facing serious challenges because of economic conditions and are having to go through the insolvency process.
Although the case I took on involves what is currently a devolved matter, I knew that re-reservation was being reconsidered, so my conscience was somewhat assuaged. The reality is that the insolvency process is not very pleasant. It is never pleasant for people to be bankrupted or to have their goods and chattels sold by a bankruptcy administrator who seems to be their friend until the moment when they sign the form, and who then turns out to be their enemy. In the case I am currently involved in, there is a house for sale. The insolvency administrator has allowed it to be vandalised, so quite a lot of the financial benefit to the creditors has been lost, and seems to be ignoring any offer from anyone to buy the property.
This issue should be a responsibility across all the Chambers, and I think it makes sense for the same rules to apply in Scotland as in the rest of the UK. The Bill’s provisions would bring them into line. We should all realise that it does not matter which side of the border people are living on or trading in, and that they must be dealt with properly by the insolvency laws and its practitioners. I have serious reservations about the way they are currently regulated. I look forward to this being returned to being a reserved matter so that I can fully engage in it.
David Mundell
Clause 12 implements the Calman commission recommendation that the UK Insolvency Service should be made responsible for laying down rules to be applied by insolvency practitioners on both sides of the border. The commission was persuaded by evidence from stakeholders, including the Law Society of Scotland and the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland, that a consistent approach to winding up would bring significant benefits to insolvency practitioners, creditors and others dealing with insolvent companies in both England and Wales and in Scotland. Many windings up involve groups of companies that operate on both sides of the border, and it will be more efficient in terms of both time and money if the same winding-up rules are applied to each insolvent company in the group, except where Scottish common law dictates otherwise.
As a result of the proposals, the reorganisation of groups of companies will be more efficient and lead to increased returns for creditors and shareholders. Group reorganisations may involve subsidiaries being wound up, and a common approach to winding-up rules would help reduce the cost and complexity of group restructuring where constituent companies operate in both Scotland and in England and Wales. In its evidence to the Calman commission, the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland, which regulates most of the insolvency operators working in Scotland, highlighted the benefit of consistent rules in promoting a more stable environment for corporate recovery and turnaround.
Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)
I am interested in what the Minister says about having the same rules across an economic single market. By that logic, is he arguing that this should be not a UK competence, but a European competence across the single market in which we all live?
David Mundell
I understand where the hon. Gentleman is coming from, and his party’s position in relation to matters European, which, as I understand it, would have Scotland as a member of the euro, which I steadfastly disagree with.
The Law Society of Scotland reported in its evidence to the commission that, because of the increased number of insolvencies of groups of companies, practitioners have for a number of years been having difficulties where parts of the group are subject to the English rules and part to the Scottish rules. The Calman commission was persuaded that a consistent approach should be taken to winding up rules, and the UK Government agree. The commission recognised that its first option for implementing its recommendation—UK legislation followed by a legislative consent motion—might not be achievable, so it suggested primary legislation amending the devolution settlement as an alternative means of securing the desired effect. The first option would not fully and effectively transfer legislative and Executive competence in this area, and that could result in continuing divergences in the rules. That would frustrate the objective expressed by the Calman commission, which is why we are adopting the second of the commission’s options and re-reserving the winding up of business associations in its entirety.
Schedule 2 is introduced by clause 12. Having just one Parliament responsible for the rules relating to winding up in Scotland will aid flexibility and responsiveness, and address problems that have been reported by insolvency office holders when the law changed in one jurisdiction but not the other. In fact, we are seizing the opportunity that the Bill provides to deliver for Scotland the benefits of modernisation changes, some of which have been in place in England and Wales—and for the existing reserved insolvency procedures in Scotland—for nearly two years. These changes lift administrative burdens by allowing insolvency office holders to make full use of advances in information technology made over the past quarter of a century to communicate with creditors, thus reducing the costs—for the benefit of creditors.
The changes were made to reserved insolvency procedures in Scotland in 2009 and 2010 by a combination of legislative reform orders and subordinate legislation, but because of the division of responsibility for rules between the UK and Scottish Parliaments the changes could not at that time be extended to windings up taking place in Scotland. That is an example of some of the unnecessary and confusing divergences that have developed between the two jurisdictions about which the Calman commission expressed concern. We are taking steps to address that concern and thereby ensure that creditors of windings up taking place in Scotland are able to enjoy similar benefits to those provided for creditors of windings up in England and Wales.
I wish to deal specifically with the points raised about registered social landlords. In that context, I fully agreed with the appraisal of the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty) of the contribution of the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford). I accept that she has legitimate concerns, which she raised in the Scottish Affairs Committee. As part of my appearance before that Committee, I undertook to meet representatives of the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations. I am pleased to report to this Committee, as I have done to the Scottish Affairs Committee, that that meeting has taken place and we were able to have a full discussion about these concerns.
The first and most important point is that no change to the Housing (Scotland) Act 2010 will be brought about by these measures. They will not change the provisions of that Act or the regime and regulator that were put in place; they will not change the insolvency processes envisaged by that Act. Part of the concern appeared to be about what happened if the insolvency procedures put in place by that Act did not work and had to be changed, and whether this House would be as responsive in dealing with those concerns as the Scottish Parliament. I know that the hon. Lady has a fundamental view about the balance between the former and the latter. However the experience of not just this Government, but the previous one, when the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) was in the Scotland Office and the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) was aiding her, suggests that the UK Government have demonstrated a willingness to support the legislative intentions of the Scottish Parliament. The Insolvency Service is held in particular regard for the measures it has brought forward to modernise insolvency practice in areas for which it has responsibility in Scotland and, indeed, in England and Wales. I am pleased to report that the Insolvency Service will meet the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations at the beginning of April to discuss any specific ongoing concerns that might still exist.
Dr Whiteford
Will the Minister clarify exactly which issues remain outstanding with the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations that necessitate a further meeting?
David Mundell
Following our meeting with the federation, I wrote extensively on the specific points that I had raised. My interpretation concerned whether Westminster would be as responsive as the Scottish Parliament if new issues arose. It is extremely important to take on board that this is about new issues and not about the adequacy of the Housing (Scotland) Act 2010. That Act is in place, as are the arrangements for insolvency. The issue is whether, if the arrangements that have been put in place did not work and other arrangements had to be brought in, that could be done expeditiously in the House of Commons, and I believe it could. Indeed, one Opposition Member is the former distinguished Communities Minister of the Scottish Parliament and I cannot imagine that she would allow the Government to sit idly by while there were requests for changes to insolvency procedures in respect of registered social landlords in Scotland. That issue is not a basis for continuing concern, but we are committed to the dialogue involving the Insolvency Service and the federation.
It is important to re-emphasise the point that the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk confirmed—that the Scottish Parliament’s current powers in relation to RSLs are not whole powers regarding RSL insolvency. They relate only to the winding up and only where it concerns a moratorium on the disposal and management of property held by an RSL, so the Scottish Parliament is not currently able to make provision for all aspects of the law on RSLs. The view of the Calman commission was that the ability to make provision in this area was fragmented and should be returned to Westminster to deal with that fragmentation. Clearly, there are Members who could never agree with the return of powers to Westminster, however sensible that might be, but I hope that on this occasion they will accept that the measure will benefit Scottish business and will not be detrimental to the RSL sector. On that basis, I hope that the Committee will not divide on clause 12.
Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. I think we both know that this is not quite a part of the clause 13 stand part debate. If what the hon. Gentleman is saying is not part of that, I call the Minister.
David Mundell
Thank you, Mr Hoyle, and welcome to this debate, which I can see you are already enjoying.
I did not intend to speak for long. I was looking forward to the erudite contribution of the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) on why Antarctica should be the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament, and how after 12 years of devolution, Antarctica has been discovered to be an important matter for which the Scottish Parliament must have responsibility.
Pete Wishart
I am also disappointed about Antarctica. However, is the Minister pleased that Antarctica will now join time and outer space in schedule 5 of the Scotland Act?
David Mundell
I think that schedule 5 of the Scotland Act is the appropriate place for Antarctica.
The Chairman
Order. We are dealing with health professions. We have not quite got to Antarctica yet, so I think we will ignore that part.
David Mundell
I accept your ruling, Mr Hoyle, although it is sometimes important to point out to Opposition members that for the first eight years of the Scottish Parliament there was a Liberal Democrat-Labour coalition.
Mr MacNeil
I would love to know why the Minister thinks that London rather than Edinburgh should have responsibility for whatever portion of Antarctica we are talking about. Is he ashamed of Scotland? Why should it be London? Why should Scotland not have that power? What is he ashamed of?
The Chairman
Order. We are discussing health. We are not discussing Antarctica.
David Mundell
We have learned tonight that London SNP has control over Edinburgh SNP, because it is the Westminster SNP Members who determine the response to the Scotland Bill, and not their colleagues in the Scottish Parliament, who have a completely different point of view on a number of these measures.
The Scotland Act 1998 provides that the regulation of certain health professions is a subject matter reserved to the Westminster Parliament. Clause 13 implements the Calman recommendation to reserve the regulation of all health professions, not just those specified in the Scotland Act. The clause re-reserves the regulation of health professions, and I can confirm that the Scottish Parliament’s Scotland Bill Committee has stated that it is not opposed to the re-reservation of powers to the UK Parliament. The Scottish Parliament will vote on the Scotland Bill on Thursday, and we await the outcome of that vote, as I have said previously. Further, devolution is not a one-way street, and the Scotland Bill, like Calman, is about delivering a balanced package that works for the people of Scotland, as the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) said. The Scotland Bill does just that: it updates the Scotland Act with a two-way transfer of powers.
Since Royal Assent of the Scotland Act, the regulation of any health professions not regulated by the legislation listed in section G2 of schedule 5 has been a matter that falls within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. The Westminster Parliament was, therefore, unable to introduce legislation to regulate such professions without such legislation also being approved by resolution of the Scottish Parliament. Although the Scottish Parliament has had the power to introduce for Scotland separate legislation in respect of the regulation of these health professions and any other health professions not included within section G2, it has chosen not to do so and instead has approved the use of the existing, reserved machinery orders made under section 60 of the Health Act 1999 to regulate new groups of health care professionals.
The Calman commission criticised this mixed economy and considered that the current situation was unnecessarily time-consuming and cumbersome owing to the need to obtain agreement from the Scottish Parliament. The commission also pointed out that the current mixed economy presented risks in terms of consistency that could lead to the fragmentation of standards across the UK and threaten the mobility of practitioners across all four countries, which is a point that Members have raised. The Government agree that there are risks with the current situation. The Calman commission also noted that the current processes gave the Scottish Parliament some influence over the regulation of reserved professions—for instance, where there are orders and regulations relating to the regulation of professions that cover both devolved and reserved matters. The commission also took the view that there should be a common approach to the regulation of the health professions.
The Government have accepted the arguments made by the Calman commission, so the clause re-reserves the regulation of all health care professions currently regulated by legislation. It also has the practical effect of reserving to the Westminster Parliament the subject matter of the regulation of any new health professions in the future.
Notwithstanding the reservation that the clause will deliver, the UK Government will continue to agree policy in relation to the regulation of the health professions with the Scottish Government. The UK Government, through the Department of Health in England, will continue to engage closely with officials in the Scottish Government—and, for that matter, with the Administrations in Northern Ireland and Wales—to develop future policy proposals concerning the regulation of health care professionals. This will ensure that the views of the Scottish people will be taken into consideration as we go forwards, but in a manner that will deliver a consistent approach to regulation that works for the whole of the UK.
Mr MacNeil
If in future a certain type of health profession develops that exists only in Scotland, is the Minister saying that regulation of it should be done in London?
David Mundell
The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) was challenged to identify health professions that could exist only in Scotland—and failed to do so. The regulation will be dealt with in accordance with schedule 5. When we have had some identification of a health profession that could exist only in Scotland, we will be able to look at what the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues have to say about it.
Mr MacNeil
It would be good practice in shaping and making law to prepare for any eventuality. I put a particular type of eventuality to the Minister, but he has not provided an answer. If there is a certain type of medical profession that exists only in Scotland, what will happen?
David Mundell
I am afraid that that represents the level of debate on re-reservation that we have witnessed tonight. The SNP’s opposition to re-reservation is based entirely on dogma and political viewpoints rather than on the interests of the people of Scotland. The Calman commission looked very closely at these issues and considered that the balance lay with re-reserving the powers. The Government support that re-reservation and nothing we have heard in this debate or the previous one—or, I suspect, that we would have heard if we had had a debate on Antarctica—would convince any Member who looked at these matters either objectively or with the interests of the people of Scotland at heart to support the SNP position. I hope that SNP Members will withdraw their frivolous opposition so that the Committee will not have to divide on the issue.
Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Scotland Bill
David Mundell Excerpts(13 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Pete Wishart
Why was independence excluded in the setting up the Calman commission? Why could we not have included everything? Had we done so, everyone would have taken part and put forward their own proposals to move Scotland forward. But, with their legendary cunning, the oh-so-clever Unionists said, “How do we trap the Nats when it comes to looking at how devolution continues?” They resorted to type, as they did on the constitutional commission. These cunning Unionists sitting around the table said, “What we’ll do is exclude independence from any discussion about the future of Scotland,” and that is what they did.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
May I ask the hon. Gentleman what happened to his party’s cunning plan: the referendum on independence?
Pete Wishart
The right hon. Gentleman asks a fair question, and he will find out the response in May, when a Conservative-led Government attempt to secure and save their seats in Scotland. Then we will have a debate about full powers for the Scottish Parliament and then we will see the result in his constituency and area.
I shall try to get back to what I was discussing. Believe it or not, I was still talking about areas of agreement, although I was moving on to areas of disagreement. As I said, the Bill contains modest ambition for Scotland but it also contains a range of very dangerous tax plans that could significantly hurt the Scottish economy and short-change the Scottish people. As we have seen in today’s exchanges, the tax plans are the most hotly contested, keenly debated and contentious part of these proposals. As I have said to the Secretary of State, by way of figures that he keenly and hotly disputes, this approach would have cost the Scottish people some £8 billion since the establishment of Scottish devolution in 1999. I heard him on the radio saying, “It would only have been £700 million”, but what we are starting with is devolving a series of measures—
Pete Wishart
I want to make some progress.
Airguns blight so many communities in Scotland, but it is perplexing that we shall get devolution on all airguns except the most dangerous ones. I am sure that the less dangerous ones also have an impact on communities, but surely, by definition, the most dangerous ones must cause most of the damage. Similarly, we are going to get devolution on speed limits.
Pete Wishart
I am going to try to make a bit of progress, even though it is the Minister’s good self who wishes to intervene.
Thank goodness we are getting devolution on speed limits, because we have long argued for that. Some of my colleagues in the Scottish Parliament have campaigned hard for it. However, we find that we are not going to get control over freight, heavy goods vehicles or anything that is towing a caravan. The most perplexing thing of all—you will like this one, Madam Deputy Speaker—is that the regulation of activities in Antarctica are to be reserved to this House. Just in case anyone was in any doubt, Antarctica is now listed as being reserved to the Westminster Parliament. Colonies of penguins are already pulling down the saltire and hoisting the Union Jack in joyous celebration of that fact. Thank goodness for the Scotland Bill letting us know that fact about Antarctica!
David Mowat
What I propose is that the allocation be done on a needs basis that is fair to the constituents whom I represent as well as to hers.
David Mundell
I very much respect what my hon. Friend says. He took part in a Westminster Hall debate on the issue, and I am sure the Chancellor and other colleagues are listening to him. We need to be clear, though, about whether he is arguing for a needs-based assessment across the whole UK. The hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar) drew attention to the fact that there are significant differentials within England. The difference between the highest and lowest per capita public spending in England is £2,537, which is much greater than the difference between the Scottish and English average. We need to be clear about whether my hon. Friend and those who make the same argument want a change in spending within England, or just between the constituent parts of the UK.
David Mowat
The difference that we are really talking about today is the one between the constituent parts of the UK, but I have no difficulty with also applying that to the constituent parts of England. As I said, a needs-based formula is fair.
If my constituency of Warrington South, which has areas of great deprivation and some better-off areas, were in Scotland, the average constituent would receive £900 more. That is not fair—I get a considerable postbag about it. Today’s debate is not on the Barnett formula, but unless we address the matter at some point, it will become a tension in the Union from the other direction. We need to be cognisant of that, and we need to be careful.
Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)
It is a genuine pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson), who said a number of things with which I agree entirely. Twice she said that this should not be a dry, academic exercise, the first time stating that it was not about the powers, but the policies that they are used for.
On the Bill’s proposals for enhanced financial powers, with which we agree, I wish to set out in a little detail precisely what we would do with them and why we back them. I would also like to clear up a slight misunderstanding: we will absolutely not stand in the way of the Bill. The SNP will never stand in the way of additional powers coming to Scotland. The reason for the reasoned amendment, and for the amendments that we will table in Committee and beyond, is our desire to strengthen the Bill by ironing out some of the flaws and making it better. That is what we should all be doing. Notwithstanding the fact that we are only 100 days away from the Scottish election, at heart we all want the Bill to be as good as it can be.
David Mundell
I am afraid that I do not understand the logic of the hon. Gentleman’s argument, because his so-called reasoned amendment suggests that the Bill is “unacceptable”. The logic of his argument is that if he does not succeed in making the amendment—and he must accept that he is unlikely to do so—he will be unable to support the Bill in an unamended form.
Stewart Hosie
It is rather obvious that we are seeking to make the Bill better. In its current form it will not work, and I will explain why in a moment. I do not believe that it will meet even the honourable objectives that the Government have set out.
David Mundell
I think that the House deserves some clarification from the hon. Gentleman. If the amendment that he is promoting does not prevail and the Bill progresses in essentially the same form, perhaps with only some minor amendments, is he saying that his party will not accept it?
Stewart Hosie
I now see what the Minister is asking. I have every confidence that, when we coalesce in Committee, the common sense of Members from all parties will lead to a number of successful amendments that will improve the Bill, perhaps by addressing the weaknesses in the financial powers, for example, to which the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun alluded. We will wait until the subsequent stages before deciding on the Bill, which might have been changed substantially by then.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
I begin by thanking all right hon. and hon. Members for their contributions to the debate. I shall try to deal with the detail raised in individual contributions as time allows.
Today’s debate is a testament to the significance of the Scotland Bill for the future of Scotland and the United Kingdom. Although the opening of the Scottish Parliament in 1999 was quite rightly greeted with much fanfare—I was pleased to play my part in that day, along with the hon. Members for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) and for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran)—there was, as has been said, a recognition at that time of the view, which was personified by the then First Minister, Donald Dewar, that devolution was a process rather than an event.
Equally, it must be recognised that this Bill is part of a process within that process of devolution. It is part of the Calman process. The Calman process is one that I have been involved in from the very beginning. It began back in 2007, when I joined the then Scottish Secretary, now Lord Browne of Ladyton and the Government deputy Chief Whip, and the three parties’ leaders at Holyrood, Wendy Alexander, Annabel Goldie and Nicol Stephen—I pay tribute to them, as did the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain)—in seeking to establish an independent review of Scottish devolution, 10 years on. I want to put on record the Government’s thanks not just to them, but to the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) and all those who worked with him, to Iain Gray MSP and Tavish Scott MSP, who joined us over subsequent months in the cross-party steering group to lay the groundwork on how to implement the recommendations that emerged from the review.
It gives me great personal satisfaction to be part of a new coalition Government who are seeing Calman through. I know that the Opposition remain behind the process, too, and I was pleased to learn that on his visit to the Scottish Parliament on 30 June last year, the current Labour leader said that
“we also recognise the need for Scotland to have an ability to vary its tax rates on the basis of the Calman commission proposals.”
I am glad there is at least one thing on the blank sheet of paper.
I welcome the considered remarks of the hon. Members for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) and for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex). It was clear not just from their remarks but from many Back-Bench contributions from both sides of the House that this Bill will indeed receive due scrutiny in this House. Any suggestion to the contrary would be quite wrong.
Let me pick up on one or two of the points about taxation that the hon. Member for Glasgow North raised. I emphasise particularly that the Government, the Scottish Government and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs are working together through the high-level implementation group and other forums to ensure that the tax system works in a way that minimises administration for business and makes it is as easy as possible for Scottish taxpayers to operate.
Our clear view is that the system that allows people resident in Scotland for tax purposes to have a distinct Scottish tax code will deal with many of the issues that have been reported. For example, the notion that everyone in Scotland will be required to fill in an income tax return when they do not do so currently is without foundation. I am sure that we will be able to return to these issues when we get into detailed examination of the Bill and debate the precise definition of “a Scottish taxpayer”. I am sure that hon. Gentlemen and, indeed, my hon. Friends, will come forward with the many and varied occupations that could provide a basis for challenging the definition of being resident in Scotland. I was not expecting to hear a reference to stage hypnotists today, but this shows the variety of issues in respect of which we can debate whether they should be devolved or not.
David Mundell
Of course, Antarctica is another issue—it became of interest to the Scottish National party only when it discovered that it might no longer be devolved. As became clear in the debate, SNP policy on it is not exactly clear.
The Calman process provides a great example of different political parties working together in the national interest, and I am sure that Opposition Members will in due course come to see the coalition Government in a similar light. If the Bill benefits from being cross-party, it also benefits from being cross-Parliament. I have no doubt that the Bill, and support for it, will be enhanced through being tested by the unique tricameral scrutiny to which it is subject—in this House, in the other place and in the Scottish Parliament.
I was extremely disappointed by the way in which Scottish National party Members derided the Scottish Parliament process of scrutiny, about which the hon. Member for Glasgow East spoke eloquently, and which is accepted as one of the great assets of the Scottish Parliament. As ever with the Scottish National party, however, the issue is not the level of scrutiny but whether the scrutineers agree with it.
Stewart Hosie
The Minister is wrong: there was no criticism of the process of Scottish Parliament committee scrutiny, which is a model, an exemplar, a fantastic system. The difficulty was the shameful way in which certain witnesses and potential witnesses were treated. I am happy to defend them against the committee involved, which treated some of them appallingly.
David Mundell
Anybody who reads the transcripts will realise that it was the way in which the evidence was given, and its quality, that was the issue in the sessions concerned. I look forward to the evidence of Scotland’s Finance Secretary when he is recalled to that committee. Given some of the comments of the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), we will not take too many lessons from his party on respect within the context of a debate.
The commission’s initial task was to review
“the provisions of the Scotland Act 1998 in the light of experience and to recommend any changes to the present constitutional arrangements that would enable the Scottish Parliament to serve the people of Scotland better, that would improve the financial accountability of the Scottish Parliament and that would continue to secure the position of Scotland within the United Kingdom.”
As we have heard today, there is an overwhelming consensus in the House and in Scotland that the Bill lives up to that vision. It builds on the success of the first 11 years of the Scottish Parliament, and addresses Holyrood’s one critical flaw: the lack of revenue-raising power to match its spending power.
On the amendment, I defer to the House and the Speaker, who selected it, but I am not sure how to respond. It clearly states that the Bill, in its present form, is unacceptable, yet when Scottish National party Members are asked whether they support the Bill, and whether they will support it if it emerges from the parliamentary process in broadly the same terms, they are unable to give an answer. I am afraid that the amendment strikes me as no more than a stunt—an opportunity to say, “We opposed it,” while agreeing with it. It is absolutely ludicrous that a party, which has some worthy people in it—the worthiness of the views of many members of the SNP has been acknowledged—should come to the House and say, when additional powers for the Scottish Parliament are proposed, “No, we don’t want them. Because we can’t have our own way, we’re not going to support the Bill.”
Stewart Hosie
The Minister has not listened to the debate. We made it extremely clear that we will not stand in the way of any powers being devolved to Scotland. As the Bill stands, however, it has huge flaws and needs to be improved. That is a rather sensible thing to say, one would have thought, on Second Reading.
David Mundell
In that regard, the hon. Gentleman’s comments are as incoherent as his comments in relation to the financial provisions. The SNP stands against the Bill, and will divide the House on the basis that the Bill is unacceptable. If the motion is carried, that, as Mr Deputy Speaker has indicated, would be the basis on which the Bill went forward. The position set out by the SNP is incoherent not just financially but constitutionally.
Let me now deal with some other, more sensible contributions. We heard from a number of old hands—old in terms of the devolution process, although not, of course, in terms of years. We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing), who described her experience of the scrutiny of the original Scotland Act. We also heard from the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe), who is no longer in the Chamber, but who is a great supporter of devolution whenever the opportunity arises.
The right hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce), who has campaigned on these issues for a long time and with some success, made a thoughtful speech. I can inform him that the United Kingdom Government as a whole will review charity law, and that, as we have made clear in the Command Paper, we felt that it would be better to enact the spirit of the Calman recommendations once that review had been completed in the rest of the UK.
A number of Members raised the question of changes in the income tax threshold. The Command Paper makes it clear that the Government would proceed on the basis of no detriment, and that any such changes would be accommodated in the block grant settlement.
I congratulate the hon. Member for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell) on the fact that she is celebrating her birthday, although I am slightly concerned that she should enjoy doing so in combat with some members of the SNP. During the course of the debate, I realised that there was an obvious gift for her: the book by my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart). As he revealed that he had a large number of copies, not only the hon. Lady but most of her constituents would be able to receive one.
My hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson) made some important points about cross-border relations. As both the Secretary of State and I are well aware, people living in the border regions have long been able to cope with the differences on either side of the border. For instance, the well-established difference in the licensing laws that used to prevail did not cause any particular difficulties. The existing devolution settlement does not cause any difficulties, and the revised settlement will not cause any either.
The hon. Member for Livingston (Graeme Morrice) made the important point that strengthening devolution does not undermine the United Kingdom, but strengthens it. As well as giving us a précis of his book, my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South raised significant points about, for instance, pension plan payments. I can reassure him that the high-level implementation group involving HMRC is examining those issues at this moment.
My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) intervened on my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South on the subject of the Barnett formula, and was subsequently involved in a discussion of the subject. I accept that concern has been expressed about the system of devolution funding, but tackling the deficit is the Government’s top priority, and any changes would await stabilisation of the public finances. The current funding arrangements—in essence, the Barnett formula—are set out in an administrative agreement rather than in statute, but the financing mechanism in the Bill would apply equally well to another way of calculating the block grant. The Bill does not fix the Barnett formula in stone for the future. It neither rules in nor rules out reform of the Barnett formula in the future; indeed, it is designed to be flexible in relation to alternative approaches to funding.
The right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire), a seasoned campaigner on these issues, made a number of important points. I can reassure her that the Government are not devolving taxation in relation to savings and unearned income, so most of the things about which she expressed concern will not come to pass. The hon. Member for Glasgow North West (John Robertson), who is no longer in his place, has always been a staunch supporter of the nuclear industry, and he is to be commended for that. However, he will be aware that, after due consideration, the Calman commission concluded that there should be no change to the arrangements for new nuclear power stations in Scotland.
The hon. Member for Glasgow North East made an interesting point about a Scottish office for budget responsibility, and I look forward to hearing more about that in the next stage of the debate. As I have said on previous occasions, I very much welcome the hon. Members for Glasgow East and for Kilmarnock and Loudoun to this House, because they bring a great depth of experience of the Scottish Parliament and of being in government in Scotland—in coalition with the Liberal Democrats, of course. I reassure the hon. Member for Glasgow East, in her absence, that the Government are committed to the Bill’s proposals on airguns and that I listened to the powerful case she made in that regard. Finally, I did welcome the contribution of the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle). However, although she is one of the younger Members of this House, it appeared that she was somewhat stuck in the 1980s.
My final remarks are for those people who have opposed this process, who have sat on the sidelines every time they have had an opportunity to contribute to this process and who are only able to come forward at the last minute with carping complaints. What I say to them is—
David Mundell
I have no time to give way.
I ask those people to reflect, in the few minutes left, on the fact that if they support this process and if their party supports more powers for the Scottish Parliament, they should not press their amendment to a Division. Interestingly, we heard a lot of quotes about academics who support the Calman process but, as Scottish Members will have noted, certain academics were very absent from today’s debate.
I want to finish on a specific financial point. It is absolutely essential that we scotch the idea of an £8 billion deflationary bias that been mentioned repeatedly but has no factual basis. There is no deflationary bias about the financing mechanism that is at the heart of the Scotland Bill. The Scottish Government’s assertions are based on a period when public spending rose faster than tax receipts—the very activity that resulted in record levels of borrowing and debt. That is unsustainable, and it is simply incorrect to infer that the result from that period equates to a deflationary bias. If implemented now, the means of financing would in fact benefit Scotland during the fiscal consolidation. I urge hon. Members to support the Bill.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Oral Answers to Questions
David Mundell Excerpts(13 years, 10 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
May I associate myself with the Secretary of State’s comments on Phil Gallie? Phil was a true, great Conservative in Scotland.
I have regular discussions with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on a range of issues. The VAT rise is a tough but necessary step towards Britain’s economic recovery. Income tax and national insurance increases would have had a more damaging impact on poorer people in our society.
Gordon Banks
Almost half the respondents to a recent survey by the Federation of Small Businesses said that they would increase prices because of the VAT rise, and 45% of those respondents said that the rise would decrease turnover and have an obvious impact in hindering job creation and growth. How can the Secretary of State and the Minister continue to sell out the people of Scotland and support this abysmal tax rise?
David Mundell
How can the hon. Gentleman continue to fail to take responsibility for his Government’s record, which took our country to the brink of bankruptcy and required the VAT rise to fill the black hole? If anyone is responsible for the issues that Scottish business currently faces, it is his Government.
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
4. What assessment he has made of recent trends in business confidence in Scotland.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
5. What assessment he has made of the likely effect on universities in Scotland of the increase in the maximum fees chargeable by universities in England.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
Education is devolved, and the hon. Gentleman will be aware that the Scottish Government are currently consulting on the future of higher education in Scotland. The UK Government are developing a White Paper on higher education in England that will fully consider the effect of their proposals on higher education in the devolved Administrations.
Pete Wishart
I am grateful to the Minister for that answer, although it was not quite an answer to my question. He will know, as I do, that the tripling of university fees in England will bring nothing but pain and misery to Scottish universities and Scottish students, whether in funding or support for students, or through the intolerable pressure on the Scottish Government to respond. What does he have to say to the university students who will suffer so much because of the appalling decision made by his party and the Scottish Liberals?
David Mundell
Higher education in Scotland is devolved. The UK Government are taking account of the impact of their policies in Scotland, but I tend to agree with Sir Andrew Cubie when he said that the Scottish Government were behind the curve in responding to the Browne report and bringing forward their own proposals. They are followers, not leaders. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. There is a constant hubbub in the Chamber. People outside must think that it is extremely discourteous.
Mr Charles Kennedy (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (LD)
The Minister should be aware that what is not devolved are decisions on research funding—decisions that are arrived at here in Westminster and which will have an impact, not least for those Russell group universities in Scotland. Will he give us an undertaking that he will ensure that the Secretary of State for Scotland stays closely in touch with Mike Russell’s all-party working group at Holyrood, so that whatever the political composition after May, we get an outcome for Scottish universities that does not replicate the errors of policy judgment that have sadly been arrived at here?
David Mundell
I am happy to give my right hon. Friend an undertaking about the Scotland Office liaising with the relevant Scottish Parliament committee, and also to assure him that the Scotland Office works closely with Universities Scotland on all issues affecting universities in Scotland.
Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)
10. What recent discussions he has had with the Driving Standards Agency on its operations in Scotland.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
I have had no such discussions with the agency. However, the hon. Gentleman will know from the Westminster Hall debate that he secured on the proposed closure of Arbroath and Forfar driving test centres that the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning) has agreed to look further into the arrangements surrounding driving test centre closures.
Mr Weir
The Minister is obviously aware that local driving test centres in rural areas such as Angus are being closed without any consultation whatever, with services moved to multi-purpose test centres. Does he accept that this is an unacceptable way for a Government agency to act? Will he press the Secretary of State for Transport, who I notice is sitting two along from him on the Front Bench, to impose a moratorium on closures until, at the very least, there is adequate consultation with local communities before the removal of such important services?
David Mundell
I commend the hon. Gentleman for his diligence in pursuing this issue, as he also did in his Westminster Hall debate. He knows that the Transport Minister took away the issues that he raised in that debate and agreed to look into them.
Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD)
11. What assessment he has made of the effects of the outcomes of the recent state visit to Edinburgh and London of the vice-premier of the People’s Republic of China on the renewable and low-carbon energy industries in Scotland.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
13. What recent representations he has received on the boundaries between devolved and reserved policy matters; and if he will make a statement.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
The Commission on Scottish Devolution was established to look into this issue, and we are taking forward recommendations of the commission in the Scotland Bill.
Miss McIntosh
Will my right hon. Friend take the opportunity to revisit the boundaries between reserved and devolved areas in farming matters? Does he believe that we in England could benefit from the way in which the common agricultural policy has been applied in Scotland?
David Mundell
The Calman commission looked at these issues across the full spectrum and determined that there was no need to make any changes in respect of agriculture, other than in certain aspects of animal health funding. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. The House must come to order. I want to hear Mr Robert Halfon.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
14. What recent representations he has received from the Scottish Executive on the financial accountability of the Scottish Parliament.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
The most recent such representations related specifically to the financial provisions of the Scotland Bill, received around the time of its introduction on 30 November 2010. Since May last year, Scotland Office Ministers have not received any representations from Scottish Ministers describing the detail or the estimated economic impact of any alternative proposals to deliver financial accountability to the Scottish Parliament.
Robert Halfon
On average, the Government spend about £7,000 a year per person in England, but they spend about £8,500 per person in Scotland. What comfort can the Minister give to my hard-pressed taxpayers in Harlow that their money is being spent wisely?
David Mundell
The Government understand that concerns have been expressed about the Barnett formula, but their priority is the stabilisation of the public finances. That is our priority for this Parliament.
Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
While the VAT rise was swift, we are still waiting for the rural fuel derogation in the islands. In my constituency, fuel costs £1.45 a litre, but I have information that, in the tiny Faroe Islands, the price is 94p a litre for diesel and £1.10 for petrol. The islands control their own fuel taxation. Should not Scotland, with 5 million people, have at least the powers of an island group of 48,000?
David Mundell
I would have thought that the hon. Gentleman would be pleased that we finally have a Government who are taking forward the issue of fuel prices in remote and rural areas and who are looking to hold a pilot in constituencies such as his to establish how exactly it would operate in practice.
Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con)
15. What the outcome was of the recent visit to Scotland of the vice-premier of the People’s Republic of China; and if he will make a statement.
Oral Answers to Questions
David Mundell Excerpts(13 years, 11 months ago)
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Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
5. What recent discussions he has had with the UK Border Agency on the welfare of asylum seekers in Scotland.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
The Secretary of State and I are in regular contact with the Home Office on matters relating to asylum seekers. I understand that the UK Border Agency is working closely with support organisations in Glasgow to ensure that there is minimum disruption to those affected by the termination of UKBA’s housing contract with Glasgow city council.
Anas Sarwar
I thank the Minister for that answer. Does he think it acceptable that no detailed discussions were held between UKBA and either Ypeople or the Angel Group ahead of the decision to scrap the contract with Glasgow city council, even though they will be made to take responsibility for more than 1,000 asylum seekers in the city? Will he agree to meet representatives of all those involved in the dispute, so that he can make an informed contribution to the Immigration Minister?
David Mundell
I will certainly be happy to meet the hon. Gentleman and other people who have an interest in this matter. I know that he has already had the opportunity to meet UKBA, and I think that he will share with me the positive view that although the people involved will no longer have a contract with Glasgow city council and will instead have one with another provider, many of them will stay in the same properties and that will minimise disruption.
Pete Wishart
Does the Minister even start to understand and appreciate the outrage that exists in Scotland about the treatment of asylum seekers? This is not just about the Glasgow situation, appalling though that is; it is also about the detention of children and the operation of the section 4 card. Will he get down to the UKBA to explain that we look at these issues very differently in Scotland and we expect the UKBA to act accordingly?
David Mundell
I do recognise that there are concerns in Scotland about how the matter in Glasgow was handled, and the Immigration Minister accepts that the correspondence with those affected could have been much better handled. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will welcome, as I do, the inquiry that the Scottish Affairs Committee is conducting into relations in Scotland with UKBA.
Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
I welcome the Minister’s acceptance that the correspondence could have been handled better on the cancellation of the Glasgow contract, because as a result of letters sent out by UKBA, vulnerable people, including many families, were left in a state of extreme anxiety about where they would be living. Can he reassure us that lessons will be learned from this, so that such mistakes are not repeated in future?
David Mundell
Indeed, I can give the hon. Lady that assurance. As soon as these issues came to light, the Secretary of State for Scotland was in contact with the Immigration Minister. There is a recognition that the correspondence was inappropriate, and a number of measures have been taken. For example, everyone affected will have at least 14 days’ notice if they have to move. Progress has been made. The initial letter was regrettable, but the situation will be better in future.
David Cairns (Inverclyde) (Lab)
3. What recent discussions he has had with the (a) Secretary of State for Health and (b) Scottish Executive on strategies to reduce the incidence of HIV in the UK.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
I am in contact with the Secretary of State for Health and the Scottish Government on a range of matters. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Government published their public health White Paper yesterday. As that is taken forward, close attention will be paid to the lessons that can be learned from the Scottish Government HIV action plan.
David Cairns
I am grateful to the Minister for that answer. On world AIDS day, it is worth reminding ourselves of the rather obvious fact that viruses such as HIV do not respect borders. Will he reassure me that as the Government seek to draw up their sexual health and HIV strategy they will work closely with all the devolved Administrations to ensure a coherent and joined-up approach? That is the only way that we will slow the spread of the virus, which has already claimed far too many lives.
David Mundell
It is indeed appropriate that the hon. Gentleman has asked his question on world AIDS day. He is to be commended for his work as chairman of the all-party group on HIV and AIDS and for his work on the “Halve It” campaign. The Secretary of State will shortly meet the Minister for Public Health in Scotland, Shona Robison, and I shall ensure that this matter is on the agenda.
Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking to discuss with the Scottish Government the findings from the eight pilot projects that the Department of Health is running to extend HIV testing in primary care hospitals and community centres?
David Mundell
I am happy to give that undertaking. As the hon. Member for Inverclyde (David Cairns) intimated, HIV and AIDS know no borders and the rest of the United Kingdom can learn from what has happened in Scotland, just as Scotland can learn from what is happening elsewhere in the United Kingdom.
Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con)
7. What assessment he has made of the lessons learned from the 2010 Delhi Commonwealth games which could inform his Department’s contribution to the 2014 Glasgow Commonwealth games.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
The Commonwealth Games Federation is currently leading a formal review of the Delhi games. The Scottish Government and Glasgow 2014 games partners are participating in that review, and will be seeking to identify the key messages to inform planning for the 2014 games. The Scotland Office will do whatever we can to contribute to a successful games in 2014.
Greg Hands
The Minister will know that one of Delhi’s troubles was in attracting the top athletes. What will the UK Government do to ensure that the best from across the Commonwealth come to Glasgow in 2014?
David Mundell
As the hon. Gentleman will appreciate, most of the responsibilities in respect of the 2014 Commonwealth games are devolved and rest with the organising committee. I have already met the leader of Glasgow city council and assured him that the UK Government will do everything that we can to support a successful games.
Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
8. What recent discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on measures to promote economic growth in Scotland.
Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
9. What recent discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the effect on average household outgoings in Scotland of raising the rate of value added tax to 20%.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
The VAT rise is part of the Government’s credible plan to tackle the largest deficit in peacetime history. Difficult decisions are necessary, but as a consequence we will get our country back on a sustainable economic footing, to the benefit of everyone.
Pamela Nash
Does the Minister not agree that the rise in VAT—the most regressive tax, by his party leader’s own admission—will hit the poorest in our society hardest, particularly in Scotland, where incomes are lower and jobs continue to be lost?
David Mundell
What I acknowledge is that the Labour Government left us with a deficit £12 billion larger than they had told us, and that if we do not tackle that deficit everyone in Scotland will be worse off. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. This sort of noise is very discourteous. I want to hear Fiona O’Donnell.
Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
The voluntary sector in Scotland plays a vital role in supporting some of our most vulnerable families. The increase in VAT will cost Scotland’s voluntary sector dearly. What is the Minister actually doing to support that sector, so that it can deliver his vision of a big society?
David Mundell
This Government are committed to supporting the voluntary sector in Scotland and elsewhere in the UK, but the hon. Lady should tell people in that sector and elsewhere in Scotland that the rise in VAT is a consequence of her party’s Government’s overspending.
Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)
10. What discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on commissioning a Ministry of Defence hospital unit in Scotland.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
Although there are currently no plans to extend the existing network of Ministry of Defence hospital units, I can assure the hon. Lady that the Government recognise the importance of maintaining world-class medical services for our armed forces in the UK.
Katy Clark
Despite the increase in the number of injured coming back, we have no MOD hospital unit in Scotland. Organisations such as the Royal British Legion Scotland believe that there should be one. Will he meet the Royal British Legion Scotland, myself and any interested colleagues to discuss the matter?
David Mundell
Indeed, I am happy to meet the hon. Lady and any colleagues. It is important to say, though, that many military personnel are treated extremely well in non-military hospitals in Scotland, where they are closer to their friends and family.
Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op)
11. What recent assessment he has made of trends in the level of employment in Scotland; and if he will make a statement.
Constitutional Law
David Mundell Excerpts(14 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
I beg to move,
That the draft Scottish Parliament (Elections etc.) Order 2010, which was laid before this House on 25 October, be approved.
The order consolidates the rules for the conduct of the Scottish Parliament elections and ensures that the accepted recommendations from the Gould report, and a subsequent inquiry by the Scottish Affairs Committee, will apply for the May 2011 election. The draft order has been available to electoral administrators and political parties since it was laid in Parliament on 25 October—more than six months ahead of the 2011 election. Indeed, an earlier version of the draft order was circulated to electoral administrators in April and to political parties in June.
Many Members will remember that more than 180,000 votes were lost due to rejected ballot papers in the 2007 Scottish Parliament and local government elections. That is totally unacceptable in a modern democracy, and there was widespread public outrage at the time. Indeed, I instigated a debate on the subject in the House in May 2007.
Ron Gould was commissioned by the Electoral Commission to review the 2007 Scottish elections, and concluded that six main factors had contributed to confusion, and so to the level of rejected papers. First, there were many problems with the design of the ballot papers. Secondly, a new proportional voting system for local government elections was introduced, and voters were confused by using two electoral systems on the same day. Thirdly, there had been poor co-ordination of the publicity campaigns of the Electoral Commission, the Scottish Government and others. Fourthly, there were problems caused by electronic counting. Fifthly, there had been fragmented and late legislation on the matter and a lack of involvement in the legislative process by electoral administrators. Sixthly, there was a lack of co-ordination within the electoral community and a fragmented approach to planning.
There is no doubt that public confidence needed to be repaired after the problems in 2007, and I believe that a successfully administered UK general election in Scotland earlier this year will have gone some way to doing that. However, I am pleased to say that the Scotland Office has continued the work started by the previous Administration of implementing the Gould recommendations, and the subsequent recommendations of the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs, that the Government accepted at the time.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
The Minister mentioned that he raised the matter some time ago, after the last Scottish Parliament election. He might also recall that in 2004, a Member of the Scottish Parliament for the South of Scotland region argued very coherently that we should decouple elections. Does he agree with himself that that is the best way forward?
David Mundell
I regret that, at that time, the Labour party did not accept the coherence of my argument. It was, of course, the Labour-led Scottish Executive who insisted that the Scottish local government elections and the Scottish Parliament election went ahead together.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
In the light of the Minister’s comments and the criticisms that there have been of the 2007 election, why is now not the moment to rethink the fact that there will be two different types of election next year, and potentially in 2015 as well? That could be avoided entirely by the Government changing their mind.
David Mundell
As the hon. Lady will know, having contributed to other debates, that issue has been debated in the House during the consideration of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill and the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill. However, I will address it later in my remarks.
Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)
I appreciate that the Minister has changed his mind—he is perfectly entitled to do that—but he prays in aid Mr Gould. From memory, I am sure that Mr Gould’s recommendation was that there should never be two elections of different sorts on the same day. The order rather seems to run counter to that core recommendation.
David Mundell
I think the hon. Gentleman’s memory betrays him. If he had been paying particular attention to the helpful contribution of the Scottish Affairs Committee on the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill in September, he would have seen that Mr Gould had said:
“The marking of yes or no on a referendum ballot is much easier to understand and carry out than the requirements of marking an STV ballot”—
a ballot under the single transferable vote. He also said:
“I do not believe that the same factors which led to voter confusion and the large number of rejected ballots at the last Scottish Parliamentary and Municipal elections would arise if both the Parliamentary Election and the Referendum were held on the same date.”
Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Will the right hon. Gentleman welcome, as I do, the partial acceptance of the thrust of the Scottish National party and Plaid Cymru’s new clause 4 of the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill, which will allay the fears of the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) about the 2015 election occurring on the same day as a UK general election?
David Mundell
I will, and I was pleased to read his contribution to the debate on the Bill on the day he refers to, as well as the contribution of the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who also welcomed the consultation that the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), is undertaking in relation to the 2015 elections and the subsequent elections, every 20 years at which there might be a clash of dates.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Does the right hon. Gentleman concede that while there may be a general election and a Scottish election on the same day, the decoupling of the Scottish election and local elections, as a result of the Gould report, means that the local elections will be out of kilter and that it is not inconceivable that a general election under an alternative vote system could be held on the same day as a local council election under the single transferable vote?
David Mundell
Clearly, it is not inconceivable that such a thing might happen. However, in accordance with the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill, that scenario is unlikely. A helpful contribution that the hon. Gentleman, his Front-Bench colleagues and his other hon. Friends could make is that following next year’s elections to the Scottish Parliament, they could take forward a proposal to repeal STV as a voting system for local government elections in Scotland. That was a proposal that the Labour party adhered to without even asking the people of Scotland to participate in a referendum.
John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)
I am all for helping out the right hon. Gentleman. It is not often that he and I agree with each other, but has he talked to his coalition partners about such a change in policy?
David Mundell
As the hon. Gentleman knows, this is a coalition in the Westminster Parliament, and the arrangement in that coalition was that there should be a referendum on AV as the United Kingdom voting system. I wish that his colleagues in the Scottish Parliament had perhaps pressed more strongly in their own coalition negotiations for a referendum to be the requirement for the introduction of STV for local government in Scotland.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for so generously giving way. If he is so keen on the Scottish Parliament making strong representations, what account is he taking of the strong recommendation from the Scottish Parliament that the referendum and the election should not take place on the same day?
David Mundell
The hon. Lady will be pleased to know that I read in detail the debate that took place in the Scottish Parliament on this subject. The hon. Member for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran) was able to bring to that debate her reflections on her time in Westminster. I am sure that even she would recognise that during the course of that debate, nothing was said that had not already been said in this Parliament in the debate on the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill. No new argument was made by that day’s coalition of Labour and Scottish National party Members.
Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)
I rise to respond to the provocation by the right hon. Gentleman. Does he not agree that in that debate last week, we saw a remarkable agreement between the Scottish Labour party and the Scottish National party—that is something that we do not often get—which indicates the strength of feeling in Scotland against the Government’s proposals?
David Mundell
I do not accept that at all. I have read the transcript. As the hon. Lady knows, the arguments that have been made previously in this Parliament were simply rehearsed; some were made without using the available information. I noted that she and others did not point out Ron Gould’s contribution to the Scottish Affairs Committee, which I quoted earlier. He said explicitly that it would be possible for the referendum and the Scottish Parliament elections to go ahead on the same day.
Michael Connarty
I am grateful to the Minister. He is smirking all over his face, but does he not realise that people are watching this? He is saying that he does not care that the people of Scotland, most of whom did not vote for his party—that is why he is the lone Conservative Scotland Member—or the Scottish Parliament, which is elected by the people of Scotland, have been ignored. He is representing the contemptuous behaviour of this Government at that Dispatch Box.
David Mundell
That is a ridiculous suggestion. The Government will listen to the Scottish Parliament. Had the debate there revealed any new or different argument that was not reflected in the debate in the House, we would have considered it, but nothing new was said. Indeed, as I pointed out previously, less information was available from that debate than was available from the debate in this House. In addition, I have not heard the hon. Gentleman advocate the UK Parliament giving up its right to determine the UK voting system and dates for elections to the Scottish Parliament.
Mr MacNeil
To rewind, the hon. Member for Glasgow North West (John Robertson) said that he did not often agree with the Minister. Will the Minister extend the olive branch further and say that he and the Labour party prefer Tory cuts to Scottish independence?
David Mundell
The people of Scotland prefer being part of the UK to Scottish independence, but we are not debating that this evening; we are debating the Scottish Parliament (Elections etc.) Order 2010.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
There is only a handful of Lib Dems in the Chamber tonight, but where is the Secretary of State for Scotland? What important, pressing issue means that he did not want to come here to take part in this vital debate?
David Mundell
The Secretary of State had confidence that I would be in a position to make the case for the order. The hon. Gentleman had the opportunity last week to ask where the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland was when the equivalent Northern Ireland order was debated, and he will likewise have a similar opportunity to ask where the Secretary of State for Wales is when the equivalent Wales order is debated next week.
On the Gould recommendation for a six-month cut-off for changes in the law that governs the conduct of elections, we have ensured that the electoral administrators and political parties are well versed in the changes to the legislation well in advance of May 2011. Indeed, I discussed the order this week with Mary Pitcaithly, the new chair of the Electoral Management Board for Scotland, and I have arranged a further meeting with her and representatives of the board on 21 December.
The targeted 5 November working date for making the order would be challenging for whichever party won the recent general election. However, the projected date for making the order is considerably earlier than the equivalent order before the last Scottish Parliament election, which was made less than two months before the date of the poll.
Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Will the Minister tell the House—or put the information in the Library—how many people have contacted him who support this particular proposal?
David Mundell
I presume that the hon. Gentleman is referring to the Scottish Parliament (Elections etc.) Order 2010. I was not aware that there was a dispute over the order, which will regulate next year’s elections. The provisions of the order have been widely consulted on—by the Electoral Commission, the Scotland Office and the Scottish Affairs Committee—and they have received support even from the Labour party in the form of the EMB representation.
David Mundell
The public had confidence that the political parties in Scotland and the professionals who serve on the EMB were taking forward measures that had agreement across the political spectrum. However, if the hon. Gentleman has any specific concerns about the content of the order, which is essentially the same as the one promoted by his Government, I would be delighted to address them.
The order applies the recommendations of Gould and the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs, which were accepted by the previous Government, to next year’s election. It is a large order, and I want to focus on the main changes since 2007.
Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)
I am a member of the Scottish Affairs Committee, as the Minister is aware, and I cannot remember us saying that we recommended that the referendum and the Scottish elections should take place on the same day. I am quite sure that the Committee would have been against that. Notwithstanding that, on the subject of the alternative vote, is he prepared to say how he personally might vote?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I know that the Minister was tempted by that question, but perhaps we could stick to the draft order before us.
Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)
Perhaps we can reframe the question. With 60 seconds on the doorstep to speak to a voter in your constituency, will you talk to them about the AV referendum, or will you press the case for your party in Scotland?
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. It is not me who will be doing that. I would be grateful if hon. Members addressed their remarks to the Minister, not to me.
David Mundell
I will take your advice and stick to the discussion of the order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like to refer hon. Members—I am sure that they will be interested in this—to a correction slip that was associated with the draft order. It makes a number of typographical corrections to the draft instrument, which will become part of the final order for printing if the draft is approved by Parliament.
David Mundell
No, I want to make some progress. I also want to leave time for the many Members from Scotland to make their contributions to the debate.
I want to comment on the four points about the draft order that were raised by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. First, article 2 of the order defines the term “European parliamentary election” without that term being used in the text of the order. Secondly, rule 20(3)(a) in schedule 2 includes among the minor errors that returning officers can correct in nomination papers
“errors as to a person’s electoral number”.
However, unlike the nomination papers for election to this House, the nomination papers for Scottish parliamentary elections do not contain proposers’ electoral numbers, thus rendering the reference unnecessary. Both those errors, while regrettable, have no effect on the operation of the order. My officials will ensure that returning officers are aware that the reference to electoral numbers can safely be ignored and that the unnecessary provisions will be removed at the first suitable opportunity to amend the order.
Thirdly, the Committee also highlighted article 3(1), which deals with the disregarding of late alterations to the register of electors, and, fourthly, article 4(5), which deals with the effect of alterations to the register where there has been an appeal against a registration officer’s decision. Those provisions have been set out in a substantially similar form in previous versions of the order since 2002, and so far as I know, they have not prejudiced voters or the effective administrations of previous elections. On reviewing those articles in light of the Committee’s comments, we are of the view that there is an overlap with the provisions of the Representation of the People Act 1983 that renders those provisions unnecessary. Those points were not raised until after the draft order had been considered by the Electoral Commission and had been laid. We propose proceeding with the order in its current form, and we will revisit those provisions once we have the benefit of consulting with the Electoral Commission and other interested parties. As the equivalent provisions in previous orders have apparently not caused difficulty for voters or electoral administrators at previous elections, we do not anticipate any difficulty with those provisions as drafted.
Mr Frank Roy
Is not the fact that there are so many mistakes that have to be rectified evidence that the order is being pushed through the House far too early?
David Mundell
I do not think that it is evidence of that at all. The hon. Gentleman will know from his long service in government that from time to time there will inevitably be small errors in such large documents, and particularly ones that have been carried over from documents and orders passed by the previous Administration.
Moving on to the substance of the order, we have consolidated legislation on the conduct of Scottish Parliament elections so that the majority of rules governing them are now in one document, making them easier for electoral administrators and political parties to use.
The order sets out that for the 2011 elections we will return to a manual count of ballot papers for both the Scottish Parliament constituency and regional elections.
Fiona O'Donnell
Will the right hon. Gentleman give his view on the count taking place that night? Would it be the count for one, two or three ballots? Does he foresee a problem if the counts are split, and the postal ballots are returned together in one envelope?
David Mundell
The hon. Lady makes a valid point about postal votes and how they will be dealt with, and we will speak to the Electoral Management Board about that. It is already clear that counts for the Scottish Parliament constituency and regional elections will take place ahead of any count for the alternative vote referendum.
Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)
One problem with joint elections is that some papers are inevitably put in the wrong ballot box. Will not all the ballot boxes have to be opened on the night for all the elections so that the papers can be sorted out before a count can take place?
David Mundell
Indeed, the verification count will be done first, and it will be exactly the same as in 1999 and 2003, when local government elections were held on the same day as the Scottish Parliament elections.
Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)
I hope that I can be helpful. In the general election in May this year, my count was combined with that for another election. There was no problem at all in verifying the boxes first, and the odd stray ballot paper was easily allocated to the correct count. I hope that that example helps to allay any fears that Opposition Members may have.
Michael Connarty
The Minister said that he did not envisage a time when local government elections, Scottish Government elections and even an election to this place would coincide, but if there is a sequence of five years and four years, that situation will eventually occur. Given the chaos that occurred when two elections were combined in Scotland, what provision has been made in the order to avoid such a clash, or will there be a count system lasting three or four days?
David Mundell
This is a stand-alone order, which regulates the conduct of Scottish Parliament elections.
Mr Frank Roy
We have heard that some ballot papers could go into the wrong ballot boxes. Is the Minister saying that all ballot boxes will be opened to be verified, regardless of the election?
David Mundell
The hon. Gentleman is a very experienced election campaigner, and he knows that in 1999 and 2003, when the Scottish Parliament and local government elections were held on the same day, that is exactly what happened. Whatever safeguards we put in place, it is not impossible for a member of the public to put the wrong ballot paper into the wrong ballot box.
Ian Murray
I want to probe the Minister on that point. If someone voting in the AV referendum has to go to a different polling station to vote in the Scottish Parliament elections, how will the Minister ensure that their votes are verified properly?
David Mundell
I am confident, as is the Electoral Management Board, that that process can be dealt with, but I will raise that specific issue of different polling places—the hon. Gentleman has raised it before—when I meet Mary Pitcaithly, and I will respond to him directly on that.
David Cairns (Inverclyde) (Lab)
The Minister is praying in aid the expertise of the Electoral Management Board of Scotland. Does he recall that it comprises the very people who told us before the general election that if we proceeded with an overnight count, it would add two to three hours to the length of the count because of the need to check the identifiers on postal ballots? I said at the time that that was outrageous scaremongering to put us off having an overnight count and that they had not a shred of evidence. It turns out that I was right and they were wrong. Will the Minister deal with the Electoral Management Board with a degree caution, because up to now its advice has been spectacularly rubbish?
David Mundell
The hon. Gentleman is better placed than many others to know exactly how these organisations operate. He will also know that Ron Gould, on whom so many Members place such emphasis, also recommended that overnight counts should be done away with. That was one of the proposals that the hon. Gentleman’s Government quite rightly rejected.
David Mundell
I have not placed the same emphasis on Mr Ron Gould as the hon. Gentleman’s colleague, Miss Nicola Sturgeon, who questioned Mr Gould’s competence because he had the audacity to challenge the wording “Alex Salmond for First Minister” on the ballot paper as it might have confused the electors. Miss Sturgeon thought that that was a ridiculous proposition.
Mr MacNeil
I simply repeat my question: has the Minister ever placed much emphasis on Mr Ron Gould?
David Mundell
Mr Ron Gould provided an authoritative report that is reflected in the order and in the subsequent Scottish Affairs Select Committee inquiry, but not everything that he said at the time was taken forward. As I said to the former Minister, the hon. Member for Inverclyde (David Cairns), the previous Government’s choice of proposals not to be taken forward was quite right.
Cathy Jamieson
I want to ask the Minister for absolute clarity on this. He has cited the Scottish Affairs Select Committee a number of times. Does he accept that Ron Gould did not tell the Committee that it was a good thing to hold the two elections on the same day? He said it would be possible to do it, but he did not endorse it.
David Mundell
I think that I have quoted Mr Gould in full, and I think he is quite clear—
Tom Greatrex
Perhaps the Minister could read out the sentence before the quote from Ron Gould that he has already read out so that the House can appreciate the full point that Ron Gould was making.
David Mundell
If I had been able to complete my response to the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson), I would have acknowledged that Mr Ron Gould’s preference was for separate elections. It was also his preference that there should be no overnight counts at elections because of the opportunity for mistakes to be made. He said:
“The marking of yes or no on a referendum ballot is much easier to understand and carry out than the requirements of marking an STV ballot.”
He also said:
“I do not believe that the same factors which led to voter confusion and the large number of rejected ballots at the last Scottish Parliamentary and Municipal elections would arise if both the…Parliamentary Election and the Referendum were held on the same date”.
Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)
What assessment has the Minister made of the possibility of confusion arising from some people being able to vote in the Scottish Parliament elections next year but not being entitled to vote in the referendum?
David Mundell
I am confident that that issue will be addressed by the electoral authorities. There are different electoral franchises, and the electoral registers make it clear who is on which franchise. I cannot guarantee that no one will be disappointed after turning up to vote in an election and finding that they are not entitled to do so, but their status and their entitlement to vote will be determined not by their confusion but by the legal position in relation to the franchise.
Mark Lazarowicz
I understand that, but at some polling stations in my constituency, up to 10% of the electorate could be entitled to vote in the Scottish parliamentary election but not in the AV referendum. Does that not create the potential for confusion not only for those voters but for the people working in the polling stations and for every other elector as well?
David Mundell
The hon. Gentleman’s comments will no doubt have been heard by the Electoral Commission and those who are going to produce the information material about the elections to be held next May that will be delivered to every household in Scotland.
Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)
To be helpful to the Minister, I would like to point out that in London we had the mayoral elections as well as the European elections, which have very different electorates. If the Minister—
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. I am sure that the Minister is very grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s help, but let us stick to Scotland.
David Mundell
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I shall continue with my summary of the order’s impact.
There will be separate ballot papers for the constituency and regional votes. Registered party names must be used on ballot papers, and the design of the ballot paper follows the principles set out in the Electoral Commission’s publication “Making your mark: Good practice for designing voter materials: guidance for government policy-makers”. There will be a longer timetable for running the election, increased from 21 to 28 days, and to accommodate the administrative demands of increased postal voting there will be a longer period between close of nominations and the date of election from 16 days before the poll to 23 days.
The deadline for registering to vote by post and the earliest time that postal votes can be issued is still 11 days before the poll. This longer period between the close of nominations and the date of the election helps to accommodate the increased demand to vote by post. Once all names of all candidates are known, ballot papers can be printed without any delays and sent out immediately after the deadline for registering for a postal vote has passed. For consistency, we have brought the control of donations to candidates and limits on candidates expenses into line with the principles set out in the Westminster rules.
Apart from the consolidation of the 2008 and 2009 amendments to the 2007 order, the main new changes that have been made are as follows. Article 5(2) has been amended to reflect the provisions of sections 18A and 18B of the Representation of the People Act 1983, which set out the requirements for the review of polling districts and places. Article 36 applies to candidates at Scottish parliamentary elections—other than party list candidates—the regime for control of donations to candidates that applies to parliamentary elections by virtue of section 71A of the Representation of the People Act 1983.
Article 43 limits the expenses that may be incurred by or on behalf of candidates—other than party list candidates—in the pre-candidacy or long campaign period before a Scottish parliamentary general election. This reflects the position that applies to parliamentary general elections by virtue of section 76ZA of the Representation of the People Act 1983.
Article 47 incorporates the revised requirements for candidates’ returns for election expenses contained in section 81 of the Representation of the People Act 1983. Article 74 now reflects the requirements of section 110 of the Representation of the People Act 1983 in relation to the information that has to appear on election publications.
Article 88 increases the minimum period between the Dissolution of the Scottish Parliament and the day of poll from 21 to 28 days. This reflects the increase in the overall timetable for Scottish Parliament elections recommended in the Gould report. I am sure that the Opposition Front-Bench team will note the impact of the royal wedding bank holiday on the date of Dissolution of the Scottish Parliament ahead of the Scottish elections. This reflects the increase in the overall timetable for Scottish Parliament elections that was recommended in the Gould report.
Paragraphs 1(3) and 2(5) of schedule 1 have been amended to allow electoral registration officers to supply returning officers and other persons or organisations with a consolidated version of the register that takes account of any alterations, as opposed to having to provide a copy of the original register and individual copies of the notices of alteration.
Rule 1 of schedule 2 provides the timetable for elections. There is no longer to be a separate timetable for by-elections. Indeed, it may be of interest to hon. Ladies who are still members of the Scottish Parliament that the date has passed for which a Scottish Parliament by-election can be held ahead of the Scottish Parliament elections.
Rule 20 of schedule 2 allows for minor errors on nomination forms to be corrected by either the constituency or regional returning officer. Rule 48(3)(b) of schedule 2 has been amended to allow grandparents or grandchildren to assist a person with disabilities to vote at a polling station. Rule 49(7) of schedule 2 now requires the voter to sign the tendered votes list, which is in line with rule 40(3) of the parliamentary election rules. Rules 69 to 71 of schedule 2 and paragraph 30 of Schedule 4 have been amended to reflect the transfer of responsibility for the storage of election documents from sheriff clerks to constituency returning officers.
Rules 72 to 78 of schedule 2 have been updated to reflect the provisions relating to the death of a candidate during the election period which were introduced by section 24 of the Electoral Administration Act 2006. Rule 79 of schedule 2 has been amended to specify what information on Members should be entered in the Scottish Parliament’s returns book, and to restrict the availability of the returns book for public inspection to the life of the Parliament or to such later time as the Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament may direct.
Paragraph 10 of schedule 3 has been amended to include a requirement for electoral registration officers to inform a proxy that they have been appointed, and to inform that proxy of the length of their appointment. Paragraphs 16 to 21 of schedule 3 provide for limited access to, and the supply of copies of, absent voting records—such as the postal voters list—for candidates, political parties and elected representatives, as well as public inspection of those records under supervision. That reflects the United Kingdom position under the Representation of the People (Scotland) Regulations 2001.
Paragraph 5(5) of schedule 4 has been amended to allow the returning officer to determine which of a candidate’s proposed agents are to be appointed for the purpose of attending the postal voting proceedings if the list submitted by the candidate contains more names than have been authorised by the returning officer.
I think the House will acknowledge that we have already had a full discussion of the impact of holding AV referendum on the same day as the Scottish parliamentary elections. Opposition Members may wish to make further contributions in the time that remains. However, given that the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) raised the issue of the clash of elections in 2015, which arises in the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill, I want to say a bit more about that.
The Government recognise the concerns raised about the coincidence of elections, and we are consulting the Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament, the Scottish Government and the parties in Scotland. Specifically, we are consulting on whether provision should be made in the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill enabling the Scottish Parliament to resolve, with a two-thirds majority, to delay its election by up to six months to avoid a coincidence with the elections to the House of Commons. That would supplement the existing powers in the Scotland Act which allow the Parliament to dissolve early.
Ian Murray
I am pleased that discussions are taking place with various bodies about the elections in 2015. Is the Minister now conceding that it would be unwise for two elections to be held on the same day?
David Mundell
I am recognising that the coincidence of the Scottish Parliament and Westminster elections in 2015 is a significant and legitimate concern. That is why we are consulting on it.
The proposal for the new power would be consistent with existing provisions in the Scotland Act on extraordinary elections. It would also allow a decision to be taken should it be decided at a later date that elections should not be combined.
The forthcoming Scotland Bill will signal the Government’s commitment to implementing the proposals of the Calman commission on Scottish devolution, including the recommendation to devolve responsibility for the administration of elections. The Bill will be introduced in the House soon, but clearly it will not have received Royal Assent by May 2011.
Finally, I should point out that not all the Gould recommendations were for the UK Government to act on; some were for the Scottish Government, the Electoral Commission or electoral administrators to implement.
I hope that the House has been reassured that the draft order will take the necessary steps to ensure successful elections to the Scottish Parliament in May 2011, and I commend it to the House.
Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
I have been slightly distracted by a decoy from the Government Whips, but we in the Hebrides can forgive such decoy activities from Orkney and Shetland.
I am no lawyer—perhaps a reasonable crofter, but certainly no lawyer—but as it stands we feel that there are serious issues with the order. As the SNP’s lawyer put it:
“This order is a perfect example, of how NOT to write legislation.”
We have found no fewer than 27 individual problems with the drafting of the order. Some have been reported to the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, which has accepted four of them. I shall not, for the benefit of the House, go through all 27 today. However, I shall give an overview of what has happened over the past months in relation to our Scottish elections.
Let me start by reiterating the fact that our Scottish elections should not be run from Westminster. Our elections are a unique part of Scottish democracy and, frankly, the way in which the legislation for our elections has been treated is nothing less than shocking. It gives me some delight—and perhaps a bit of schadenfreude—to think that the referendum that was going to eclipse our elections has now been eclipsed by a certain royal wedding. We wish them good luck and thank them for the bank holiday that is coming our way.
David Mundell
May I seek the hon. Gentleman’s clarification on which referendum he means? I had understood that there was to be a referendum in Scotland, instigated by the Scottish Government, that was to eclipse all other electoral activity in Scotland.
Mr MacNeil
The SNP would have treated the Scottish people with more courtesy than the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats, who have treated them with disdain by parking their tanks on the lawn of the date of the Scottish election—the first Thursday in May in 2011, a date that had been scheduled for many years.
This Government have ignored the strongest point of the Gould report into the 2007 Scottish election, which stated that, among other things, there should be a six-month period between the statutory instrument coming into force and polling day. We are already within the six-month period for the Scottish parliamentary elections and are thereby in violation of the strongest recommendation in the report. Why do we need six months? The report states:
“Throughout this report, we have pointed to problems that have arisen because the passing of electoral legislation has been unduly delayed. To avoid these problems, we would recommend a practice found in the electoral laws in other countries. These laws provide that electoral legislation cannot be applied to any election held within six months of the new provision coming into force.”
Even without the report, that is surely common sense. We have international practice and the Government are indeed fond of citing international examples. It is beyond me how they can fail to note that other countries use the six-month electoral law. When electoral legislation is rushed through at the last minute it is the voters who suffer.
I want to discuss the new ballot papers, which do not adhere to Electoral Commission recommendations and have not been properly user-tested. Forms J and K on the order do not exactly correspond to the form on page 20 of the Electoral Commission report, “Making your mark”, which was directed at Government policy makers. The Scotland Office says that it has used that information in drafting the forms in the statutory instrument, but the form on page 20 of the report is plainly far superior to what the Government have offered. Specifically, I am concerned about the spacing of the lines separating candidates and parties, which do not extend over the page. Also, the spacing of the words and emblems are not closely matched to the box. Those points might seem trivial, but if only 5% of voters make an error we have a serious problem, as we discovered in 2007.
The average voter is, perhaps, too busy with shopping, picking up the kids and the stresses of work to make absolutely sure that they are complying with what the Government intended. People are not going to have rulers ready to discern which line applies to which candidate and party. Surely, it is the job of this place, for now, to make such things as easy as possible for the voter and to remove potential bear traps.
David Mundell
I will respond to as many points related to the order as I can in the time available to me, but if some matters are not covered, I undertake to write to the Members in question. To allow the fullest possible debate, I thought it right to take a large number of interventions because the order and the other matters raised are important to people in Scotland.
I accept the sincerity of the comments of the hon. Member for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran), but I do not accept that it shows disdain for the Scottish Parliament not to agree with a conclusion that it reaches in a debate. I respect its right to have that debate, although frankly I am extremely surprised that it took three months for it to take place if the issue was of such a pressing nature for the public in Scotland. Some valuable contributions were made in it, but they reflected contributions made when the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill was debated in this House. Nothing new was added to lead the Government to any view other than that we should hold the referendum on 5 May. Of course, we commit to working with the Scottish Government, Scottish political parties and the Scottish Parliament to ensure that the election and referendum on that day are a success.
Margaret Curran
May I ask why the Minister did not consult the Scottish Parliament about the proposal? Does he regard that as a breach of the respect agenda?
David Mundell
I do not accept that it was a breach of the mutual respect agenda that this Government are pursuing. It was right that a provision of such significance be brought to this House first. As soon as it had been announced to this House, the Scotland Office was in contact with the Scottish Government and parties in the Scottish Parliament, and it has maintained that dialogue.
As I indicated earlier, we accept that the coincidence of the 2015 elections is a significant issue to consider. That is why, earlier in the summer, the Secretary of State wrote to parties and authorities in Scotland to acknowledge that fact, and why the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), indicated that there would be a consultation on the matter. I look forward to hearing the views of the Scottish Labour party and the other parties in the Scottish Parliament as part of that consultation. We are committed to our agenda of mutual respect, and that is highlighted no better than in the Bill that we will shortly bring forward to enhance greatly the powers and responsibilities of the Scottish Parliament.
The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) made a number of points about the cost of the count. We have been quite clear that the additional costs of the referendum will be met by the UK Government.
We are short of time. The regulations that are contained in the order will allow additional time for consideration of postal voting issues. I have confidence that the Royal Mail in Scotland will be able to cope with all the issues that have been raised.
The hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) raised a number of points, but I share the view of the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) that it was not clear where they were heading. I do not know whether we were being criticised for being too rushed or for being too slow.
The hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) showed that he had learned shamelessness from the master, the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy), in suggesting that his party would have brought forward this order quicker. It is not the case; we have kept to as tight a timetable as we can and we have kept the rationale of the previous Government. Many of the issues he raised related to the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, which is currently being dealt with in another place, and, to an extent, to the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill.
The other evening I heard his other mentor, the noble Lord McAvoy, making a passionate speech, highlighting many of the same issues. He raised some specific points, which I will respond to in writing.
Question put.
The Deputy Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of the Question being challenged, the Division was deferred until Wednesday 1 December (Standing Order No.41A).
Summertime (Scotland)
David Mundell Excerpts(14 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
I commend the hon. Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris) for Glasgow South on securing tonight’s Adjournment debate. Perhaps his much lamented retirement from blogging has left his nights, light or dark, free for more exciting and productive activities such as this debate. However, given the lateness of the hour, he can be confident that Scotland’s nocturnal cyber-nats will be following our every word.
I respect the hon. Gentleman’s views and his support for the introduction of what is generally known as double summertime, which would see the United Kingdom using central European time. He is right to say that not everybody in Scotland is against such a change, but he should acknowledge that most are against it, as the Secretary of State for Scotland has made clear to colleagues in the Government. It is for those supporting change to make and win their case across the UK, including in Scotland and Northern Ireland, and that has not happened.
David Mundell
The Scotland Office has carried out consultation on the Bill, both formal and informal, which supports the view that the majority of Scots do not support the measure at this time.
Mr Harris
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way a second time, given how long I took over my comments. He said that a majority of Scots do not support the change, but he is now talking about consultation and qualitative research. If he is to maintain that a majority of Scots oppose the change, he has to come to the Dispatch Box with evidence of quantitative research by a polling organisation and the Scotland Office. Does he have that information?
David Mundell
Quite the contrary. The hon. Gentleman and those who support the campaign have to win the argument with the public in Scotland, with the body politic and with civic society.
Mr Don Foster (Bath) (LD)
Just to clear up the issue, will the Minister agree to place in the Library all the information to which he has referred, which enabled him to make the claims that he has just made?
David Mundell
As the hon. Gentleman will understand, it is not possible to set out that information in the way that he seeks. What is possible is for those who support the change, such as the hon. Member for Glasgow South, to make their case and win the argument with the people of Scotland. He was very careful not to say that he was speaking on behalf of people in Scotland, because he knows that there is not majority support for the change in Scotland at this time. Rather than argue about polling evidence, which all of us in the body of Scottish politics know is amazingly unreliable, he should concentrate on winning the argument in Scotland if it is what he truly believes.
Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD)
I appreciate that the debate is about how Scotland feels, but does the Minister accept that there is a spurious argument that the only objections to the policy are from Scotland? In reality, they will come from all over the UK. I have just checked, and found out that if we had the policy in place, sunrise tomorrow in London would be at 8.24 am, and on Christmas eve it would be at 8.50 am. May I suggest that even Londoners would find that objectionable?
David Mundell
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. Indeed, the objections are not just from Scotland.
My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has set out clearly the position of the Government as a whole, including the Scotland Office: no change can be made without the consensus of the whole United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland as well as Scotland. There can be no specific policy in relation to Scotland, because consensus across the UK is the key factor. Let me make it clear that, as the hon. Member for Glasgow South alluded to, the Government are unequivocally opposed to any differentiated time zone for Scotland.
Mr Bradshaw
Why has the Prime Minister—like the leader of the Liberal Democrats, I am afraid—changed his position on that issue since the general election? He said quite clearly before the election, including to tourism representatives in the south-west, that he favoured the change. Indeed, the hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood), then the shadow Tourism Minister, explicitly said that he favoured the move. Is this just another broken promise by the coalition?
David Mundell
I certainly accept that the former shadow Tourism Minister is a powerful advocate of the case, but what the Prime Minister said then, and what he says now, is that we welcome an informed debate in all parts of the UK. As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor might say, on this issue we are all in it together or not at all.
Mr Ellwood
I am aware that my hon. Friend has been following this issue carefully, but I would ask that his Department show some leadership and a little bit more interest, rather than just saying, “Oh, it’s for the others to make the case.” There is definite interest in the matter, because Scotland and the entire country can benefit. It is time that the Scotland Office considered the matter in detail and carried out an overt study, rather than one that they are not willing to publish, and then supported a three-year experiment. There would be a massive benefit to Britain, including Scotland, and I hope that the Department will embrace that rather than have a laissez-faire attitude.
David Mundell
I do not accept that it is a laissez-faire attitude to reflect opinion in Scotland within Government. We should welcome the debate and challenge those people who feel strongly about the matter to go out and win that debate in Scotland. It is quite clear that they have not yet done so. I agree that this has to be a factual debate and that it does not have to be an emotional one. Even if we move to double summertime, it will not mean that the United Kingdom has any more daylight hours.
Rebecca Harris (Castle Point) (Con)
Is the Minister aware that the last three opinion polls conducted in Scotland show that a majority of the Scottish public are in favour? I can give him that evidence tomorrow morning.
David Mundell
I have that evidence, but as my hon. Friend will know, the answer is determined by the question, and many people will say “yes” when they are asked whether they like lighter evenings, but they do not necessarily take on board the full consequences of all the issues in the survey. Although I accept and acknowledge that opinion may be changing in Scotland, I do not believe that the majority of people in Scotland support this change.
Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil
Might it not be an idea for those parliamentarians who are passionate advocates of change to resign and force a by-election on this very issue and test the opinion themselves?
David Mundell
That is another interesting suggestion. I was going to agree with the hon. Gentleman’s point about the change in wintertime and the fact that the change in October is so much closer to the shortest day than the change in the spring, and that is a live issue that people mentioned to me when I was in the Western Isles 10 days ago. We must also recognise that for people living in the Western Isles and the most northerly parts of Scotland, such a change would have a significant impact on their lives in winter when daylight would not come before 10 am, and that cannot be just glibly set aside.
Mr Foster
Given that the Minister is very keen for there to be more accurate data on this information and on having an informed debate, will he make it clear that he and his Department will support the Bill’s getting a Second Reading, so that that further research and informed debate can take place?
David Mundell
That will be a matter for the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills during the course of the debate, which is to be held on 3 December. I hope that all those Members with an active interest in this matter will ensure that the debate explores all the issues that cannot be explored in the short time that we have available this evening, and that those people who promote the view will continue to gather the evidence that they believe will support their conviction that the benefits of lighter evenings would outweigh the costs of darker mornings. Judging by his contribution, that is the sort of informed debate that the hon. Member for Glasgow South wants to move to, and we would welcome that in this Parliament and in the Scottish Parliament.
Secondly, a consensus within Scotland will need to be built, to convince the body politic, Civic Scotland and the Scottish public to support them. The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) might tell me to the contrary, but I was unaware that the Scottish Labour party in the Scottish Parliament supported such a measure and had promoted it by speaking actively in its favour. I might have been wrong in that regard.
The hon. Member for Glasgow South highlighted the important issue of road safety and made some telling points. Thankfully, the UK already has one of the best road safety records in Europe, but the UK and Scottish Governments recognise that we can always do more. The introduction of central European time is not a panacea in that regard. Road safety experts acknowledge that other initiatives could have a greater impact. Indeed, even proponents of change acknowledge that the change may result in more road injuries in Scotland during the morning peak.
Mr Ellwood
I have a lot of respect for my hon. Friend personally and professionally, but I question some of his facts, because according to the statistics that I have seen, road deaths fell in Scotland during the 1968 to 1971 experiment. The statistics and analysis suggest that if the experiment were repeated, road deaths would fall again. I do not know where he gets his data from, but he needs to share them with us if we are to have a full and frank debate.
David Mundell
I recognise the passion with which my hon. Friend speaks, but his contributions have not necessarily been made from an objective viewpoint in relation to Scotland. The Government want and welcome an informed debate. As has been clearly stated, hon. Members will have the chance to debate this issue on 3 December on Second Reading of the Daylight Saving Bill, which is a private Member’s Bill sponsored by my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris). They need no encouragement from me to take that opportunity.
Oral Answers to Questions
David Mundell Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
1. What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills on the future provision of services currently provided by Consumer Focus Scotland.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
The Government carried out a review of the landscape of consumer protection bodies and will publish a consultation early next year with proposals to streamline and transfer the functions of Consumer Focus Scotland to Citizens Advice Scotland.
Cathy Jamieson
I thank the Minister for his answer. I know that he will be aware of the significant work done by Consumer Focus Scotland and indeed of the very worthy work of citizens rights bureaux in Scotland in upholding citizens’ rights. A report published today highlights one trend of serious concern: the number of people approaching citizens advice bureaux regarding employment support allowance has almost doubled in the last 12 months. In the light of the damaging cuts to the welfare budget announced last week and the significant additional pressures it will put on citizens advice bureaux, what discussions have the Minister and Secretary of State had directly with Citizens Advice Scotland regarding the transfer of these functions?
David Mundell
The Scotland Office has been in dialogue with Citizens Advice Scotland—and, indeed, with the Scottish Government—about the services it currently provides and those it will provide if the functions from Consumer Focus Scotland are transferred to it. The hon. Lady makes an important point about the provision of advice, not just about the benefit she mentioned, but about all benefits.
Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)
2. What recent discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on trends in levels of employment in Ayrshire; and if he will make a statement.
Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con)
4. What discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport on the likely effects in Scotland of the implementation of the Government’s proposals for local television networks.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
Both my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have met broadcasters to discuss a range of issues. We also have regular exchanges on broadcasting with ministerial colleagues.
David Cairns
Given the inevitable adverse implications for the BBC’s programme-making budget of the massive real-terms cut in the licence fee, is it not more important than ever for us to encourage television production from all sources in Scotland? Can the Minister update me on the progress of the plan initiated by the last Government to grant qualifying independent producer status to STV?
David Mundell
I am aware of the hon. Gentleman’s interest and expertise in broadcasting in Scotland. In answer to his question, I can tell him that an announcement will be made shortly.
Greg Hands
Local television is popular, and will make a real difference to communities in Scotland. The Minister will be aware that even the Scottish Government’s own Scottish Broadcasting Commission has concluded that television should remain a reserved matter. Will the Minister undertake to work with his DCMS colleagues to ensure that any framework resulting from the Shott review takes account of Scotland’s specific needs?
David Mundell
I agree with my hon. Friend. It was interesting to note that both the broadcasting commission established by the SNP Government and the Calman commission concluded that broadcasting should remain reserved. Nicholas Shott has visited Scotland, and has met various interested parties in the broadcasting sector there. I am sure that Scotland’s particular needs will be taken into account when his final report is issued later this year.
Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
The television channel BBC Alba manages to be both local and national, but its funds are already parsimonious, and it is able to broadcast for only part of the day. May we have a assurance from the Government that its funding—already cut to the marrow—will be defended, and that the process of putting it on to Freeview, which has been delayed still further, will be sorted out soon?
David Mundell
The hon. Gentleman will be pleased to learn that I shall visit the offices of BBC Alba during a visit to the Western Isles on 5 November. The Freeview issue is clearly one for the BBC Trust, but I understand that it has not yet made a decision.
John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
5. What discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on expenditure on port infrastructure in Scotland for the development of marine renewable energy projects; and if he will make a statement.
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
6. what discussions he has had with the Department for Work and Pensions on the implementation in Scotland of proposals to establish a universal credit.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
The Secretary of State and I have been in contact with Ministers from the Department for Work and Pensions about a number of aspects of welfare reform in relation to Scotland.
John Glen
I thank my right hon. Friend to that reply. Many areas of Scotland, notably Glasgow, have suffered from the previous Government’s shameful failure to reform welfare over the past 13 years. Does he agree that, far from fearing the universal credit and the work programme, those areas, particularly Glasgow, will benefit because it will pay to be in work and there will be more help into employment for those who need it?
David Mundell
I do agree with my hon. Friend. Our programme is designed to support those who are in the most need but also to ensure that work always pays.
Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)
On the question of work, or the lack of it, the Minister will have doubtless seen the national publicity around Irvine, because of the demise of the development corporation, created by a previous Conservative Administration. Does he believe that it is now time to bring back the Irvine development corporation?
David Mundell
The hon. Gentleman is always a strong advocate for interests in his constituency, but he will know that responsibility for that particular one rests with the Scottish Government.
Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD)
The Minister will be aware that the pilot scheme for getting people off incapacity benefit and into work is under way in Aberdeen, and it will be a desirable outcome if people can be freed from benefit. May I share with him the experience of a constituent who came to see me this week? He said that he had just successfully got DLA, incapacity benefit and carer’s allowance, but it required three separate applications and two medical examinations, which involved two separate doctors being sent from Glasgow to carry out the examinations. Is that not an example of how incompetently inefficient the system currently is?
David Mundell
Yes. The right hon. Gentleman is correct to highlight the inefficiencies of the current system, which is why the coalition Government are committed to the reform of the welfare system. It is an issue that I will draw to the attention of the Minister at the Department for Work and Pensions who will visit Scotland tomorrow.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
7. if he will discuss with the Deputy Prime Minister the merits of enabling UK-resident Scots living outside Scotland to vote in any future referendums on the relationship between the UK Government and the Scottish Executive.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
The Government have no plans for a referendum on the relationship between Scotland and the rest the United Kingdom and, as far as I know, neither do the Scottish Government. The franchise for a referendum is normally provided for in the legislation setting the referendum question and rules.
David Mundell
I am sure that, like me, the hon. Gentleman will do everything he can to campaign to retain Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom, and I see no immediate prospect of any such referendum.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
I am an enthusiastic campaigner for British people living abroad obtaining the vote in all elections after they have lived abroad for 25 years. Can my right hon. Friend explain what the Labour Government spent the previous 13 years doing and why they did not implement this policy before the general election?
Mr Speaker
Order. May I suggest that the Minister’s reply should be focused exclusively—and, I hope, briefly—on the policy of the Government rather than on that of the official Opposition?
Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)
8. What discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the implications of the mechanisms for calculating the effects of the comprehensive spending review year on year in Scotland.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
9. What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills on the implications for cross-border students of the Government’s proposals for higher education funding.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills announced the publication of Lord Browne’s report on higher education and student finance on 12 October 2010. The Government plan to publish a White Paper outlining detailed proposals in the winter.
Sheila Gilmore
There are obviously considerable consequences for Scotland in any proposals to reduce the teaching grant because of the proposals on loans. What discussions have taken place about the possibility of large numbers of English students wishing to study in Scotland, to the detriment of Scottish students?
David Mundell
The hon. Lady raises an important point. Her question is one of those posed by Lord Browne’s report, and it will need to be addressed through debate and consultation. We intend to publish a White Paper in the winter leading, subject to parliamentary time, to a higher education Bill in autumn 2011.
Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)
10. What discussions he has had with the Deputy Prime Minister on whether to hold elections to the Scottish Parliament on the same day as the proposed UK general election in 2015.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
The Government have made it clear that they will work with all the devolved Administrations and legislatures to consider the issues raised by the coincidence of elections in 2015.
Mark Menzies
Does the Minister agree that when we get to the 2015 elections the new equal-sized boundaries will ensure a far fairer result than those held under the current set-up?
David Mundell
Yes, I agree with my hon. Friend, and I am sure that he will welcome, as I do, the protection of important constituencies in Scotland such as Orkney and Shetland, and the Western Isles.
Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)
I recognise that the Minister has read the Gould report. Is he now saying that he disagrees with its central finding that two ballots on different issues in different systems should not be held on the same date?
David Mundell
I agree with Ron Gould’s submission to the Scottish Affairs Committee, in which he said that although he would prefer the referendum on AV and the Scottish elections to be held on different days, he saw no reason why they should not be held on the same day and did not anticipate that causing the same confusion that arose in 2007.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
11. What recent discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on the relationship between the UK Government and the Scottish Executive under the devolution settlement.
Mr Frank Doran (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
12. When he last had discussions with representatives of the oil and gas industries on the future of that industry in Aberdeen.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
Both my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I meet frequently representatives of the oil and gas industry. The UK Government recognise the ongoing needs of the industry and its commitment to the future of the UK continental shelf.
Mr Doran
I am sorry for that, Mr Speaker, but it is what happens when we do not expect to be called.
The Secretary of State will be well aware that the oil and gas industry is a global one and that its European headquarters is in my constituency. He will also be aware of the serious problem of skills shortages, and of the fact that the industry depends on the skilled people it can bring in from other countries and on exporting our knowledge. What is he doing to assist with the removal of the cap, which is seriously damaging the oil and gas industry and other industries in this country?
David Mundell
Oil & Gas UK has submitted replies to both consultations run by the Home Office and the Migration Advisory Committee. The consultation responses are now being considered and early outcomes are expected before the end of December. Lin Homer, the UK Border Agency chief executive, met representatives of the oil and gas sector on 9 September.
Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
I remind the House of my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests as a shareholder of Shell. May I reinforce to the Minister the concerns in that global industry now that it is so much into the export market? Not only is there the problem of work permits and getting people into this country, but, because of the way we treat people coming to this country, it is more difficult to get skilled people into other countries where we have an export market.
David Mundell
I take the hon. Gentleman’s points on board. He will recognise that the potential of the industry has been recognised again this morning with a statement to the House about the potential award of 144 seaward production licences in the 26th oil and gas licensing round.
Oral Answers to Questions
David Mundell Excerpts(14 years, 4 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
3. What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on the effects on levels of employment in Scotland of ending the future jobs fund.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
All existing future jobs fund commitments will be honoured, and there are still places available. Next year, we will bring forward our Work programme, which will introduce better targeted and more effective support for young people and the unemployed.
Ian Murray
Until the recent worldwide economic downturn, youth unemployment in my constituency was all but eradicated. The future jobs fund created 11,000 jobs, and was projected to create another 20,000. What strategy does the Under-Secretary have on youth unemployment, or are the Government just hoping for a visit from the fairy job mother?
David Mundell
The future jobs fund creates temporary, short-term posts, and the grants do not include any incentives to move people into permanent jobs. Our investment will move young people into sustainable employment, rather than creating temporary changes to unemployment.
Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD)
Will the Minister advise the House of the cost of each permanent job provided by the future jobs fund?
David Mundell
It is clear that the future jobs fund was not an effective use of resources. It was aimed at making temporary changes to unemployment figures, rather than moving people into sustainable, permanent jobs.
Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)
4. What recent assessment he has made of the recommendations of the final report of the Commission on Scottish Devolution.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
6. Whether he has had discussions with the Deputy Prime Minister on the West Lothian question.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
My hon. Friend will be aware that the coalition agreement specifically commits this Government to establishing a commission to look at the West Lothian question. We will bring forward proposals in the autumn.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
The biggest threat to the United Kingdom comes not from Scotland but from the resentment that people in England feel at the current constitutional settlement. My right hon. Friend and I both stood on a manifesto promise that we would stop Scottish MPs voting on matters in this House that related only to England. When will that happen?
David Mundell
As I said in my answer, a commission is to be established. This coalition Government, unlike the previous Government, are determined to deal with the issue.
Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)
Can the Under-Secretary justify to his constituents the fact that he will not take part in such debates and such votes when he knows only too well that his constituents depend on health service provision in Cumbria and further education support from Cumbria? Is it not right that he takes an interest in what is happening this side of the border?
David Mundell
I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I will be taking an interest in the resolution of the West Lothian question. The hon. Gentleman agreed with Lord Derry Irving when he said that the only answer to the West Lothian question was not to ask it.
Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con)
7. What recent discussions he has had with the First Minister on the relationship between the Government and the Scottish Executive under the devolution settlement.
Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)
8. What discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on tax relief for the computer games industry in Scotland; and if he will make a statement.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
My right hon. Friend is meeting the hon. Gentleman and representatives from the industry next week to discuss how best to stimulate further growth and expansion in this important sector.
Jim McGovern
We are actually meeting tomorrow, not next week. How can the Government justify a £110 million tax break for the film industry, but not allow a £50 million tax break for Dundee and the games industry?
David Mundell
I am glad that the Government are dealing with the issues that the hon. Gentleman raises with even more urgency. As he knows, the major package of reforms to business taxation in the Budget is designed to make the UK the most competitive tax regime in the G20 and that will substantially help the video games industry.
Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op)
9. What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on the effects on Scotland of ending the future jobs fund.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
I refer the hon. Lady to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray).
Gemma Doyle
I am disappointed that yet again the Minister has failed to address the substance of this question. I have listened to his colleagues rubbishing these jobs, calling them artificial and unsustainable. Frankly, I am not surprised that a Cabinet packed with millionaires who went to exclusive private schools and elitist universities cannot see the need for such a scheme and how valuable it is to have paid employment on the CVs of these young unemployed people. Will he press his colleagues to re-examine the decision to scrap the future jobs fund?
David Mundell
When I had the opportunity to visit the Clydebank jobcentre in the hon. Lady’s constituency, I found that the people there—who are on the front line in helping the unemployed into work—welcomed the Government’s measures to replace the myriad schemes introduced by the previous Government with a single Work programme.
Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)
10. What recent discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the effect on households in Scotland of the proposed increase in the rate of value added tax.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
The VAT rise is part of a fair and progressive Budget. Difficult decisions are necessary to tackle the record deficit that this Government have inherited, but the richest will pay more than the poorest.
Mrs McGuire
Given that every independent analysis says that VAT rises are not progressive but regressive, did the Minister examine the impact of the rise on any aspect of Scottish industry and, in particular, the tourism industry in my constituency, which is a large employer and very relevant to household incomes? Did the Government look at the impact of the increase in VAT on anything?
David Mundell
The right hon. Lady makes a good point about the tourism industry and she will know that many jobs in that industry are low paid. The decision to raise the income tax personal allowance for under-65s by £1,000 in 2011-12 will benefit 2 million basic rate income tax payers in Scotland, including many working in the tourism industry.
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
11. What recent discussions he has had with CBI Scotland on the state of the Scottish economy.
Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)
12. What discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues and the Scottish Executive on upgrading the A1 in Scotland.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
The provision of road transport in Scotland is a devolved matter. Transport Scotland is responsible for the management and maintenance of the trunk road network in Scotland, including the A1.
Guy Opperman
For 13 years we have had an A1 that is largely single-laned, holding back economic development in south-east Scotland and Northumberland. Will its upgrade be considered in the comprehensive spending review?
David Mundell
I advise my hon. Friend that the Scottish Government have no proposals for any major schemes on the A1 trunk road in Scotland, but I will speak to colleagues in the Department for Transport about the need to liaise on cross-border routes. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. There are far too many private conversations taking place in the Chamber, and the decibel level is far too high. I wish to hear the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty).
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
14. What recent devolution issues the Advocate-General has considered.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
Since 1 May, the Advocate-General and his predecessor have received 716 minutes notifying them of devolution issues. In the same period, the Advocate-General has continued monitoring 41 devolution cases, has been represented in court in three, and is currently involved as intervenor in two cases.
Miss McIntosh
Will the Minister share with the House whether or not the Advocate-General has given a view on the timing of a referendum on independence, as proposed by the Scottish Government?
David Mundell
As far as I am aware, the Scottish Government appear to have abandoned their proposal for a referendum on independence, especially after 80% of voters in Scotland at the recent general election voted for parties that support the Union.
Oral Answers to Questions
David Mundell Excerpts(14 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab)
2. What assessment he has made of the likely effect on economic growth in Scotland of the programme of expenditure reduction announced on 24 May 2010.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
Dealing with the deficit and continuing to ensure the economic recovery is the most urgent issue we face. We must tackle the deficit to restore confidence in our economy and support the recovery.
Mr Hamilton
Next week the Under-Secretary and his Liberal colleagues will be making massive cuts throughout the United Kingdom. When he has his first meeting with the First Minister of Scotland, could he explain why, when the Scottish Government have got a substantial increase in the amount of money they are receiving this year, they are overseeing thousands of cuts throughout Scotland? Will he do what I think he will do, which is to roll over whenever the First Minister wants him to?
David Mundell
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his, as usual, spirited question. I am sure he will be in agreement with the Scottish Parliament Finance Committee, which called on the Scottish Government to show far greater leadership by discussing in more open and realistic terms the impact that the cuts will have and the options that are available to deal with those cuts.
Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
I warmly welcome the Minister to his new post.
It is really important for economic growth in remote and rural areas to ensure that businesses, particularly small businesses, in such areas have access to broadband. What will the Government be doing to ensure that broadband is rolled out to the whole country, including remote and rural parts of Scotland?
David Mundell
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his warm welcome. He will already know that the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport has set out his clear objective of turning Britain into a digital economy. The hon. Gentleman specified with clarity the needs of rural areas, for which the Secretary of State and I will continue to fight within Government.
Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op)
I congratulate the new Ministers on taking office. However, I draw to the House’s attention the fact that they are huddled together in one section of the country; I hope that they will, at times, travel out to look at other parts of the country, including my own constituency.
What actions have been taken so far to ensure that any expenditure reduction does not result in a cut or a delay in the aircraft carriers upon which so much of the economy of the west of Scotland, and Scotland as a whole, depends?
David Mundell
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his elevation to the chairmanship of the Scottish Affairs Committee, on which I was pleased to serve with him. I am sure that he will bring his own distinct style to the Committee’s proceedings.
As the hon. Gentleman will know, this Government’s position on the aircraft carriers is, despite attempts to suggest otherwise, no different from that of the previous Government. There is to be a strategic defence review. The nuclear deterrent is excluded from that review, and it would be wrong to prejudge the review in any other way, other than to say that sea-borne defence is obviously very important to this country.
Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)
3. What recent discussions he has had with the First Minister on implementation of the recommendations of the final report of the Commission on Scottish Devolution.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
All Members of this House share the sense of shock and disbelief at the tragic events that unfolded in Cumbria on 2 June. The hon. Gentleman must have felt this more than most given his close personal associations with Whitehaven, and I personally offer my condolences to him and to the families that have been so cruelly affected.
In Prime Minister’s questions on 3 June, the Prime Minister confirmed that the Association of Chief Police Officers would be supporting a peer review, to be conducted by national police experts, on firearms licensing, the police firearms response and firearms tactics. Firearms legislation is a reserved matter. As the Home Secretary told the House in her statement on 3 June, we will await the police report before we embark on and lead a debate about the gun laws across Great Britain.
Mr Speaker
Order. We must now speed up. Some of these answers are simply too long and it will not do.
Thomas Docherty
I thank the Minister for his kind words and welcome him to his new post. The House may wish to note the support given by Scottish police forces to the Cumbria constabulary in the immediate aftermath of the incident. Will he agree to meet a cross-party delegation from Scotland once ACPO and its counterparts in England and Wales have made their submission to the Home Office, so that we can convey the very strong feelings of the people of Scotland about firearms legislation?
David Mundell
We are all proud of the efforts of officers from the Dumfries and Galloway police force and others in Scotland after the events in Cumbria. I will meet the hon. Gentleman’s delegation.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
Perhaps I should declare an interest as the holder of a shotgun licence, for sporting purposes only.
If any question were to arise of separate legislation for Scotland, would the Minister undertake to consider the difference between the sufficiency of existing legislation and the extent to which it is properly enforced? Further, in view of the geographical position of his constituency and that of his colleagues, will he take account of the considerable cross-border traffic in sporting activities involving firearms?
David Mundell
I shall most certainly take into account the issues that the right hon. and learned Gentleman has raised. He will, however, be aware that the Calman commission has recommended that the regulation of air guns be transferred to the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament, and the Government are committed to doing that in the Bill that we will bring forward in the autumn.
Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)
6. What steps he plans to take to ensure a stable economic environment for businesses in Scotland.
Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)
8. What recent discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on the support available for manufacturing in Scotland.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has made it a priority to speak to a number of key individuals in the business sector in Scotland to get an update on the main issues affecting them.
Jim Sheridan
The Minister will be aware of the Dyson report commissioned by the Conservative party in March. It contained many important ideas, such as building esteem for science, engineering, and research and development, and investing in high-tech start-ups. It also highlighted the importance of projects such as those for nuclear and offshore wind power, and, from a Scottish perspective, high-speed rail. Will the coalition Government be implementing any of those proposals, and if so, when?
David Mundell
The hon. Gentleman was a strong supporter of Lord Myners and will know therefore that the latter said:
“The Government cannot create jobs. The Government can create an environment that is conducive to the creation of jobs”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 8 June 2010; Vol. 719, c. 625.]
That is the priority of this coalition Government.
Mr Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con)
9. What recent discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on Scotland’s future energy needs.
Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)
10. What recent discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on measures to reduce the level of economic inactivity in Scotland.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
The Government have already announced their plans for a radical reform of the welfare-to-work system and the implementation of the programme, which among other things will tackle the issue of economic inactivity.
Andrew Rosindell
The Minister will have noted the comments of Lord Myners, who said that it was wrong for the previous Government to create jobs themselves, rather than creating the conditions for business to create those jobs. Will he encourage the Scottish trade unions to take the same attitude?
David Mundell
I am sure that trade unions in Scotland will share the Chancellor’s view that we are all in this together.
Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)
May I, too, welcome the Secretary of State to his new post? I am sure he is aware that his predecessor in the previous Government visited my constituency on a number of occasions to see at first hand the importance of the computer games industry in Dundee. The former Chancellor gave a commitment in his Budget to tax breaks for that industry. Can the Minister guarantee that the Government of whom he is now a member will honour that commitment?
Mr Speaker
Order. If the Minister could hear that, he has very good hearing. May I make an appeal to the House? I know that it is in a state of eager anticipation of Prime Minister’s questions, but it is very unfair to the Member on his or her feet, and to the Minister. Let us have a bit of order. That is what the public expect.
David Mundell
Like the Secretary of State, I do not want to pre-empt next week’s Budget, but I am sure that the Chancellor will have heard the hon. Gentleman’s representations.