Constitutional Law

David Mundell Excerpts

Tuesday 15th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

We have had a full and wide-ranging debate. I never doubted that we could fill six and a half hours with contributions from across the Chamber, representing parties across the political spectrum and, importantly, constituencies across the United Kingdom.

At Scotland Office questions, I said that I am never surprised by the actions of the Scottish National party, but I must admit that I was surprised that SNP Members left their Benches empty for a significant part of today’s debate, and did not listen to the contributions and views of others, even if they did not agree with them. The hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) started the debate well for the SNP with what could almost be described as a statesmanlike contribution. However, the SNP must recognise that the tone and behaviour of the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) and the somewhat erratic behaviour of the Member representing the Western Isles lead people to have concerns about how the SNP majority in the Scottish Parliament will take the matter forward.

The order that we are debating today is of the utmost constitutional significance. The right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Mr Kennedy) set exactly the right tone in his contribution on the context of the debate and the political history of Scotland that has led us to this point. The order paves the way for a legal, fair and decisive referendum that will determine Scotland’s future: whether we will be a Scotland that affirms its commitment to this, our United Kingdom, or whether we will be a Scotland that chooses to leave the greatest political, economic and social union that has ever existed. I make no apology for putting my point of view strongly and passionately in this debate, and it is clear that others will also do so. Although we are discussing process today—the legal mechanism to provide the Scottish Parliament with the power to bring forward a referendum Bill—that process will result in the most important decision that people in Scotland will ever be asked to take. Separation will not be for Christmas 2014, but for ever. That is why the process has been debated so comprehensively, not just in this House but between the Governments in the run-up to the Edinburgh agreement, and will continue to be debated by parties in the Scottish Parliament.

To answer an intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), and to refute directly some of the comments of the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire, Members of this Parliament will still have a role in that debate and will be entitled to contribute to it. The issues can still be debated in this House of Commons and the other place. Our electorate in Scotland would expect nothing else.

The order ensures that the referendum will be legal, and that is why we are delivering the section 30 order. I am pleased that the Scottish Government now recognise the importance of doing that. The referendum must be fair—and it must be seen to be fair, as many Members have said. At the end of the process, no side can be allowed to cry foul—a point that the Chairman of the Scottish Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) made in his usual colourful way. The debate must be conducted on a basis of well established principles, which have applied to referendums held across the United Kingdom, by successive UK Governments, and which both the Scottish Government and the UK Government put their names to when they signed the Edinburgh agreement last October. The process must produce a decisive result.

Businesses up and down Scotland tell me that they want to get the issue resolved once and for all. They want to get on with concentrating on rebuilding Scotland's economy, to focus on jobs, housing, and people’s real concerns. The Government want that too, but we accept that following the May 2011 election for the Scottish Parliament, the question of independence cannot be ignored. We must address the issue, and we must answer the question: do we want to stay in the United Kingdom or do we want to leave it for ever?

The order will ensure that the referendum can take place. As the Secretary of State said in his opening remarks, it will ensure that the referendum contains a single question about independence, and that there will be no second question or second referendum to cloud the issue or prevent a clear result. It will ensure that the referendum can be held no later than the end of 2014, and it will ensure that important aspects of normal referendum law that would otherwise be outside the Scottish Parliament’s competence can be included in the referendum Bill, such as the rules governing campaign broadcasts and mail shots. It will also make the Scottish Government and Parliament responsible for setting the detailed rules and regulations governing the referendum. That is an important responsibility, and, as more than one Member has observed, one to which the world will pay close attention. The Deputy First Minister said that the highest international standards would apply to the referendum, and we shall all be holding her to account.

The right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), who has already played and, I believe, will continue to play an important and increasingly decisive role in the forthcoming campaign, pointed out that the Scottish Government would have to respond to the advice of the Electoral Commission on the wording of the question and the setting of the various spending limits for the referendum campaign. I look forward to hearing the Scottish Government’s rationale for the spending limits that they have devised. Apart from the argument that people do not like money to be spent during elections, I have heard no rationale that challenges the established limits set by the Electoral Commission. It is important that we, and all who will participate in the referendum, understand the reasons for the proposed financial limits.

If the Scottish Government choose not to accept the Electoral Commission’s advice, they will have to justify their decision. As a number of Members have pointed out, the UK Government’s position is clear: they have never failed to accept Electoral Commission advice on a referendum question. The Scottish Government will also have to specify the franchise for the referendum, and if they choose to extend it to 16 and 17-year-olds, they will have to answer the important questions about data protection and access to the register for information relating to minors to which my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) referred. In turn, it will be for the Scottish Parliament to scrutinise the Scottish Government’s legislation. It will have to examine all the proposals carefully.

Members have expressed concern about the current operation of the Scottish Parliament. Like the hon. Members for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) and for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran), I was once a Member of the Scottish Parliament. At that time, when Labour was in a coalition with the Liberal Democrats and had a majority in the Parliament, it was always members of the Scottish National party who feared that their views might not be given due weight because there was a majority Government. I expect them to behave now as they behaved then in speaking up for minority views and ensuring that they are heard in the Scottish Parliament. I want them to make us confident that the Bill will be debated in a way that takes account of the views of all the people of Scotland. However, I myself am confident that my colleagues, Opposition Members and our Liberal Democrat coalition partners will be able to hold the SNP Government to account as the Bill is debated, in order to ensure that the referendum is legal, fair and decisive.

The memorandum of agreement signed by the Prime Minister, the First Minister, the Secretary of State and the Deputy First Minister on 15 October was an important first step. That was an important moment not just because of the agreement that had been reached, but because of the very public commitment given by Scotland’s two Governments to ensure that the referendum would meet the very highest standards, and that party politics and passions on both sides of the debate would not intervene in the establishment of a legitimate and fair process. It will be for both sides to stand by and live up to the agreement, and the UK Government give that commitment unreservedly.

There are clearly strong feelings in the House about 16 and 17-year-olds having a vote. As has been said, there will be a debate in Backbench Business Committee time next week, when Members will be able to discuss the topic in more depth. I believe any decision by the Scottish Government to allow 16 and 17-year-olds to vote will not achieve a partisan objective, as I am confident that when the votes are counted we will see that support for remaining an integral part of our United Kingdom comes from young and old alike.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

Does the Minister share my pleasure in the latest poll result, which included 16 and 17-year-olds and showed that the Better Together campaign currently has a 20-point lead?

[David Mundell]

I was very pleased to see that, but I am not complacent and all of us who support Scotland’s remaining part of the United Kingdom must get out and about in Scotland, under the leadership of the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West, and make sure we get our message to all parts of Scotland.

The hon. Lady made a point about 16 and 17-year-old sons and daughters of servicemen. The hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Pamela Nash) and others stressed the need to allow our servicemen and women and their partners to vote, and there are procedures in place for that, but there are no procedures for their 16 and 17-year-old children. The Scottish Government must address that matter.

There has been much consideration of the Electoral Commission, and all Members who spoke about it—apart, perhaps, from those on the Scottish National party Benches—made it clear that they would accept the views of the Electoral Commission, even if it did not adopt their party’s position on the referendum question and funding. We should all welcome the fact that under this agreement the Electoral Commission will play a role, because only a few months ago the Scottish Government did not wish the Electoral Commission to play any part in the referendum, and wished instead to set up their own electoral commission.

To those who asked what would happen if the Scottish Government did not follow the advice of the Electoral Commission, I say this: the people of Scotland will not take kindly to being played for a fool. Public trust is a precious commodity and, as the First Minister discovered following his recent comments on the EU, it can be quickly lost. I say to Alex Salmond, “Ignore the advice of the Electoral Commission at your peril.”

We have not heard about process alone in this debate. We have also heard about why this order matters. It matters because people want to get on with the real debate. Not only politicians, but ordinary people in Scotland, and each and every one of us who will be asked to cast a vote, want to hear about the real issues.

It is perfectly legitimate for the UK Government to set out Scotland’s current position within our United Kingdom in a series of papers, which we will do this year. The hon. Member representing the Western Isles tells us we will have 15 papers from the Scottish Government. We look forward to that, but I hope they shed more light than anything we have heard from them so far.

The agreement reached between the UK and Scottish Governments will ensure that a referendum on Scottish independence can take place. The section 30 order we have debated today ensures that there will be a single-question referendum on independence before the end of 2014. The memorandum of understanding ensures that the referendum will be based on the principles set out for referendums held across the UK. Together, the order and the memorandum mean that we can have a referendum that is legal, fair and decisive. I believe we are better together in the United Kingdom than we would ever be apart, and I commend the order to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Modification of Schedule 5) Order 2013, which was laid before this House on 22 October 2012, be approved.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Mundell Excerpts

Wednesday 9th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

2. What effect cancelling the fuel duty rise planned for January 2013 will have on motorists in Scotland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

Cancelling the fuel duty rise planned for January will help owners of the 2.7 million motor vehicles in Scotland, saving a typical driver £40 a year and a haulier £1,200 a year.

[Bob Blackman]

Does my right hon. Friend not agree that cancelling Labour’s planned tax increases on fuel will save the average Scottish motorist more than £600 during the life of the coalition Government?

[David Mundell]

I agree that the deferral of Labour’s planned duty rise in April this year will mean that fuel will be 13p a litre cheaper than it would have been under a Labour Government.

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

I welcome the Government’s listening to our call to stop the rise. However, what discussion has the Minister had with the Scottish Government about what assistance can be given to small independent petrol retailers, particularly in rural areas, to ensure that people living in those areas, and not just those who live in urban areas, are able to take advantage of decent pricing?

[David Mundell]

The hon. Lady makes an important point. At the end of this month I will meet fuel distributors and MPs from rural areas, and she is very welcome to join that meeting to discuss fuel prices and fuel distribution in rural areas.

[Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)]

I am delighted that the Government have cancelled Labour’s fuel duty escalator and cut fuel duty by 1p on the mainland and 6p on the islands. Will the Minister support the call to lobby the European Union to extend the island fuel duty discount to remote parts of the mainland such as mainland Argyll?

[David Mundell]

Indeed. My hon. Friend will have noted that in the mid-term review the coalition Government have undertaken to examine the possibility of extending the 5p reduction to areas of the mainland that are similar to island communities.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

The cut in fuel duty through the rural fuel derogation has been very welcome in my constituency. I remember asking Labour to do that when in power, and it refused. When will it be extended to Skye, Lochaber, Argyll and Wester Ross—areas through which my constituents pass on the way home and on the way back to the mainland?

[David Mundell]

As I said in my answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), in the mid-term review the coalition Government have undertaken to examine exactly that possibility.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

The Government have done their bit in cutting fuel duty at the pumps. Will my right hon. Friend lobby the oil companies to take on their responsibility in this respect, because when international oil prices fall, prices still remain high at the pumps?

[David Mundell]

Indeed. I am sure that my hon. Friend welcomes the fact that there is an Office of Fair Trading inquiry into fuel prices, and we very much look forward to seeing the outcome of that in January.

[Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)]

Has the Minister looked into whether these reductions, or lack of increases, have been passed on to motorists in Scotland? Is he aware that in Kennington road in London one can buy petrol at 129.9p? Besides the fact that there is a 5p differential between the price in London and the price in my constituency, it is now more expensive to buy petrol next to Grangemouth, where petrol is produced for Scotland, than in the Kennington road in London. Is the Minister doing anything to make sure that motorists are not being ripped off by those selling the fuel?

[David Mundell]

The price of fuel at different petrol stations in different communities has been a matter of long-term concern, and that is why the OFT is conducting an inquiry into it. In my previous answer, I indicated that the results of that inquiry will be available in January, and they will make very interesting reading.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

3. What discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues and Ministers in the Scottish Government on the continued use of sterling in an independent Scotland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)]

9. How many people in Scotland will be affected by the Government’s plan to limit the uprating of in-work benefits to 1%.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

Yesterday the Department for Work and Pensions published an impact assessment for the Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill, which states that about 30% of all households will be affected by the measures contained in the Bill.

[Gregg McClymont]

I thank the Minister for that answer. Even after changes to tax allowances, a single-earner household with children in my constituency will be £534 a year worse off by April 2015. With that priority in mind, does the Minister still believe that the Government should go ahead with their priority of a £2,000 a week tax cut for millionaires?

[David Mundell]

What I believe is that the Government should continue to work to sort out the mess in the economy that the hon. Gentleman’s Labour Government left behind. The measures announced yesterday will save £5 billion and he and his colleagues have not given any answers as to where they would find such savings if they did not implement those changes.

[Ann McKechin]

One in five working families in Scotland who rely on tax credits will see a cut in their real income as a result of these changes. Many of them rely on low-paid, temporary and part-time jobs when, in fact, they want permanent, full-time jobs. What steps will the Minister take in 2013 to tackle the scourge of under-employment in Scotland?

[David Mundell]

The Secretary of State will work with the Scottish Government and stakeholders in Scotland to set up an employability forum, which will look at the two Governments and all interested parties in Scotland working together to ensure that we get more people into full-time employment.

[Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con)]

14. Does the Minister agree that, for better or worse, the Scottish economy is part of the UK economy, and that the economy of our whole country will not improve unless and until we bring public spending under control?

[David Mundell]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. The benefits issue is an example of where, simply to curry favour with the electorate, the SNP Scottish Government are making promises that they could not possibly keep in an independent Scotland.

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

Will the Minister tell the House how many members of the armed forces in Scotland will see their incomes cut as a result of last night’s vote?

[David Mundell]

Last night’s vote was about ensuring that we have a sustainable welfare system. The hon. Lady’s answer on all these issues is more borrowing, more spending and more debt. She cannot say how she would fund the rises in benefit for which she voted.

[Margaret Curran]

What a disappointing answer. The answer is 4,000 members of the armed forces. There might be a Liberal Democrat leading the Scotland Office, but Scots can see that this Government are just the same old Tories. In 2010, the Department told us that it had

“absolutely no desire to see people losing their jobs or being in worse circumstances than they were in before”.

Will the Minister explain why the Government are failing the test that they set themselves?

[David Mundell]

What the people of Scotland know is that it is the same old Labour: there is no apology for the mess that it left the economy in and its only proposal is more spending, more borrowing and more debt.

[Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)]

Question 5, Mr Speaker.

[Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)]

It will come as no surprise to the Minister to learn that I opposed the cap on in-work benefits last night because it will hammer thousands of families in Scotland who are trying to bring up children while working hard in low-paid jobs. However, does he share my surprise that some senior MPs, including members of the last Labour Government, who left his Government with an almighty mess in the public finances, did not even turn up to vote last night?

[David Mundell]

Nothing that SNP Members say or do surprises me. The SNP’s position is totally hypocritical. The Scottish Government are asking nurses and NHS workers to take a 1% pay rise, yet they want benefits to rise by more than that.

[Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)]

5. How many people in Scotland have used food banks in the last 12 months.

[Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab)]

12. How many people in Scotland have used food banks in the last six months.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

Jobcentre Plus operates a food bank referral service. However, the Government do not hold information on the number of people seeking assistance from food banks.

[Mr Donohoe]

We are in 2013 and not 1813, are we not? The need for food banks this year in Scotland is an abominable reflection on society. There is even a food bank in Prestwick, which is one of the most salubrious parts of my constituency. According to the Trussell Trust, 15% of the people who use that food bank are in employment. What an indictment that is of the Government.

[David Mundell]

Although I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern about the use of food banks and the fact that there are vulnerable people in crisis situations, I do not accept the pretence that food banks have come into existence since this Government came to power. That is simply not true. There were food banks under Labour; it is simply that they were not advertised in jobcentres.

[Lindsay Roy]

What message does the Minister have for the increasing number of people in my constituency who are being forced to go to food banks to feed their families? What will he do to alleviate that situation?

[David Mundell]

I acknowledge the hon. Gentleman’s concern because he instigated a useful Westminster Hall debate on this matter. The Government will continue to do all that we can to help and support the vulnerable in his constituency and elsewhere.

[Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab)]

Two years ago, the Secretary of State said about the Government’s plans that

“the horrible truth is that across the country everyone is going to have to make a contribution”.

The horrible truth of life in Scotland under his Government, however, is that a food bank in my constituency has experienced a father walking a 15-mile round trip for a bag of food to feed his family. Is that an appropriate contribution while the Government give a £2,000 a week tax cut to millionaires?

[David Mundell]

I have already indicated that the Government are always concerned about those who need to use food banks in any circumstances, but I will not take any lectures from the hon. Gentleman and the Labour party on millionaires when they want to give them child benefit.

[Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)]

6. What recent discussions his Department has had on the provision of superfast broadband in Scotland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

The UK Government have allocated a £100 million investment for rural broadband projects in Scotland. It is the responsibility of the Scottish Government to deliver on that. Scotland Office officials keep in close and regular contact with Broadband Delivery UK and Department for Culture, Media and Sport colleagues overseeing the roll-out of all broadband projects in the UK.

[Pauline Latham]

In the Minister’s discussions with Scottish Government Ministers, have they told him what progress they are making towards implementing superfast broadband access?

[David Mundell]

It is clear that people throughout Scotland want broadband access implemented as soon as possible, particularly in rural areas. We will work closely with the Scottish Government to ensure that they deliver on the undertakings that they have given on the £100 million that they have received.

[Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)]

Although I recognise the important role that the Scottish Government play in the provision of broadband in rural areas—[Interruption.] I thought those cheers were for me. The Minister is fully aware that in areas such as his and mine, small and medium-sized enterprises depend upon good connectivity. What is his Department doing to ensure that the Scottish Government are delivering?

[David Mundell]

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we will hold the Scottish Government to account for that investment. Although the UK Government have funded investment in the cities—in Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Perth—we want the Scottish Government to deliver for Dumfries and Galloway and equivalent rural areas throughout Scotland. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I appeal for a bit of order. There are now far too many very noisy private conversations taking place. Let us hear Sir Malcolm Bruce.

[Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD)]

I thank the UK Government for the support they have given to Aberdeen city’s bid under the small cities broadband fund, and for their contribution along with the Scottish Government, the city of Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire to the expansion of broadband. May I urge the Minister to recognise that although we want superfast broadband in the cities, we also need access in rural areas at sufficient speeds to enable businesses to flourish rather than forcing people to migrate to cities?

[David Mundell]

I can advise the right hon. Gentleman that I have met Aberdeenshire council to discuss exactly that issue. Although superfast broadband is welcome in Aberdeen, we want it rolled out into Aberdeenshire as well.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

The use of superfast broadband is of course one effective way to promote the identity of our country. Will the Minister welcome to Parliament today the Ulster-Scots Agency? It is promoting the links between Ulster and Scotland, of which the Secretary of State is a wonderful example as a born Ulsterman who is now serving Scotland. Will the Minister use superfast broadband to continue to promote our wonderful culture and shared Ulster and Unionist heritage?

[David Mundell]

The Secretary of State is a wonderful example of many things, and the answer is yes. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. There is now far too much noise. I am sure the House will want to hear Mr Karl MᶜCartney.

Food Banks (Scotland)

David Mundell Excerpts

Wednesday 19th December 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Mr Betts. I congratulate the hon. Member for Glenrothes (Lindsay Roy) on securing this debate, and I thank all Members who have taken part. I have listened to some positive things being said not just about food banks but about other voluntary and community organisations operating across Scotland and in individual constituencies.

I put on record my thanks to the many organisations that provide food banks and other services, and especially to their volunteers. Many such organisations, if not most, are set up by charities and churches, which have a valuable role to play in supporting the most vulnerable in their local communities. We should feel thankful for the work that they do to provide support in sometimes desperate situations. As some Members have acknowledged—including the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson), who gave a thoughtful speech, as ever—such organisations have been doing that work for a considerable time.

Although I will address the issue of the increase in the use of food banks, we should not suggest that the work of such organisations, or the need to help and support the most vulnerable in our society, began recently. The issue is ongoing and serious, and it must be constantly challenged and worked on. Many Members gave many indications of that in their contributions, including examples such as unexpected bills, whatever their source, for those on low incomes.

Much of what we have heard recently about food banks has been through the findings of the Trussell Trust, a network of food banks providing services throughout Scotland and the UK. The Department for Work and Pensions, through Jobcentre Plus, has worked with the Trussell Trust to establish a food bank referral service, a simple signposting process to help claimants who say that they are in financial difficulty find alternative sources of assistance. People will not be referred where assistance and support is available directly from Jobcentre Plus.

What Opposition Members did not tell us is that when they were in Government, Labour refused to allow food banks to advertise by putting leaflets in jobcentres. This Government have allowed them to, and jobcentre advisers now also tell people about food banks. Some of the expansion, although not all, is due to the fact that people now know about the existence of food banks who did not know before we told them. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions told Parliament in September:

“When we came to office, I was told by the Department that despite the constant requests from a variety of people who provide food banks, in particular the Trussell Trust, to put their leaflets in jobcentres to advertise what they were doing, the last Government said no, because they did not want the embarrassment of their involvement. We immediately allowed them to do so, which is one reason for the increase in the number of people seeking food banks.”—[Official Report, 10 September 2012; Vol. 550, c. 13.]

[Fiona O'Donnell]

It is unbelievable: the Minister almost seems to be congratulating himself on the scale of growth of food banks. That and payday lending are the only areas in which this Government are delivering any growth.

[David Mundell]

I am afraid that I am not going to take any lessons from the hon. Lady, who had the temerity to quote “The Grapes of Wrath” in this Chamber but takes absolutely no responsibility for bringing this country to the brink of bankruptcy and creating the backdrop for the situation in which people now find themselves in so much difficulty. The Labour spokesman for Scotland, the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain), was as lucid as the shadow Chancellor in setting out exactly how Labour would deal with the issues. It comes back to the same things: more borrowing, more spending and more debt. That is exactly what got us into this difficulty and why we are in such difficult times.

[Lindsay Roy]

Can the Minister tell us what lessons he has learned from this debate?

[David Mundell]

The principal lesson that I have learned is that Labour has learned nothing from its time in office and has nothing to suggest other than soundbites. Of course it is a serious problem that people in Scotland have insufficient income for food. I take it as a very serious problem, but I do not believe that there is some miracle solution. Opposition Members suggest the return of a Labour Government, but they would simply pursue the same policies that brought us to the situation that we are in.

In the limited time available, I will deal with one or two of the specific points raised. All Members with individual constituents facing difficulties with the DWP or other parts of Government, such as the constituent mentioned by the hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown), should refer them to Ministers in this Government, or to me and the Secretary of State. We are happy to take forward those proposals. I am sure that the hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway and others were not suggesting that there should be no system of sanctions for those who do not operate within DWP rules and guidelines.

The hon. Member for East Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell) mentioned benefit delays. That is an issue of concern, but from April 2013, DWP will replace the current interim payments—crisis loan alignment payments, for those who cannot wait until their benefit is due—with an improved system of short-term benefit and universal credit advances. Those advances of benefit, unlike the current social fund, will not be budget-capped. We heard, as we did in last week’s debate, about the transfer of the social fund to the Scottish Government. We highlighted in that debate that the funds being transferred to the Scottish Government are not ring-fenced. I take it from what the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) said about the Scottish Government’s approach that those funds might be ring-fenced when the Scottish Government receive them, and I certainly hope that they will work with local authorities to bring decision making on the social fund closer to the people who need it most.

Contrary to what we sometimes hear in debates like this, there is good news. Some 300,000 people in Scotland will be better off under the transfer to universal credit, and 3,100 fewer people are claiming jobseeker’s allowance than a year ago. That does not hide the fact that there are serious difficulties and that these are hard times. Particularly at this time of year, all our thoughts should be with the people who are suffering in these hard times. As I did at the outset of my remarks, I commend all the charitable and voluntary organisations that work closely with people in the most vulnerable situations to support them not just at this time of year but throughout the year. This is an important debate, and I again congratulate the hon. Member for Glenrothes on securing it. On that basis, I conclude my remarks.

Unemployment in Scotland

David Mundell Excerpts

Wednesday 5th December 2012 Westminster Hall

[Gemma Doyle]

As the hon. Gentleman has just come into the Chamber, I will make a wee bit of progress.

The UK Government did have a plan to help people back into jobs, but the Work programme is not working. In the great fanfare around its launch, we were promised a revolution in getting people back to work that would transform the way people were supported, reducing the benefits bill and getting people into jobs, while ensuring value for money for the taxpayer. What a joke—instead it has been a comprehensive failure. The 3.8% success rate in Scotland—I am looking at the success rate over 14 months—falls some way behind the Government’s minimum target. The success rate in West Dunbartonshire is 1.7%, which means that less than two of every 100 people on the programme get a job. That is a shocking statistic.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

I welcome the opportunity to debate the Work programme, but it is important that we do so on a factual basis. The hon. Lady is referring to outcomes in relation to the report on the Work programme, but that is not the same as people moving into work or off benefits. Therefore, if we are to have a debate about unemployment, that is what we should be discussing and not outcomes in terms of the Work programme report.

[Gemma Doyle]

We could have a debate about what outcomes mean, but for my constituents and people in Scotland, they mean getting a job and getting into work.

What is just as shocking is the Government’s estimate that if the Work programme did not even exist, five in every 100 people would be getting a job. In an astonishing act of irony, it is the first back-to-work programme where people are more likely to get a job if they are not on it.

--- Later in debate ---

[David Mundell]

On that point, the hon. Lady may be aware that the Secretary of State has announced that there will be a Scottish Employability Forum, which will bring together the Scottish Secretary, the Scottish Government represented by John Swinney, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities represented by Councillor Harry McGuigan from North Lanarkshire council and a range of other stakeholders. That forum will address exactly the issues highlighted by her and the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle). It will ensure that the two Governments and local government, which was mentioned by the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire, actually work together; local government has an extremely important role. I therefore believe that there is significant progress.

[Cathy Jamieson]

I welcome what the Minister says. However, to pick up the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for West Dunbartonshire, for many people currently out of work, the issue is not employability, because they are employable and are desperate to be employed; the simple problem is that the jobs are not there.

To return to the figures, with some 366 people chasing every vacancy in East Ayrshire, one person gets the job, while the other 365 are employable, want to work and are desperate to get that start. They are desperate either to get their foot in the door by having a first job or to return to work to support their family. That has to be considered, and the question is how firms can be encouraged to take people on and to expand. There is still more that both the Scottish Government and the UK Government could do, and they should look to build on the successful companies that exist and, wherever possible, to maintain and save jobs. In that context, I hope that the Minister will offer his support for ways of helping to retain the jobs currently under threat in my constituency.

I have probably taken up my fair share of time. I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate. I again make the plea that both Governments should recognise that this issue is about people’s real-life situations; it is not a political football to be battered back and forth.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. You are certainly the Member of Parliament my constituents most often ask me about, and I am sure they will be delighted to learn that you have chaired the debate today.

I congratulate the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle) on securing this important debate. Based on what has been said I feel that there might be little that we agree on, but I do agree on the importance of having a debate such as this here at Westminster, to focus on issues that are the responsibility of the UK Government, and also on the importance of Members from Scotland holding the Government to account for their policies and actions in Scotland.

I find it disappointing that the Scottish National party has not sought to contribute to this debate, other than through a few random interventions. I do not want to be in the position that the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) spoke about, of blaming the other Government—the Government in Scotland—for everything that is going wrong, which would be to adopt the reality of Alex Salmond’s “plan McB”: to claim credit for everything that is good and to blame the Westminster Government for everything that is bad.

Opposition Members, other than the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun, to be fair, chose to use their contributions to blame both Governments for everything that is happening. As usual—I had no expectation otherwise—they took no responsibility whatever for the catastrophic state in which they left the UK economy when they left office in 2010. Indeed, we may hear once and for all an apology from the shadow Chancellor today for the state of the economy at that time, which would be good.

[Mr Russell Brown]

I recognise that the Minister and his colleagues are very good at talking about the mess that they were left, but will he share with the Chamber what the black hole was? What was that debt? If we remove from that debt what was provided to support the banks and the UK economy, how big really was that black hole?

[David Mundell]

There was a black hole because, for a significant period of time, the previous Government were spending more than they brought in. That is the reality, and the hon. Gentleman cannot pretend otherwise. Today we have heard various versions of the plan Labour now has to turn the economy around, but the core of that plan remains more spending, more borrowing and more debt—exactly the same prescription that brought the country to its current state.

[Graeme Morrice]

Is it not the case that the current Government are borrowing far in excess of what they are spending? Indeed, based on their original projections, they are borrowing substantially more than they anticipated.

[Nadine Dorries (in the Chair)]

Order. We are getting into a debate on the economy, rather than on unemployment in Scotland. Can we keep to the subject of the debate?

[David Mundell]

Indeed. I will leave the economy to my colleague the Chancellor, who will no doubt respond to the exact issue raised by the hon. Member for Livingston (Graeme Morrice).

Some important points have been raised, and hon. Members have taken the opportunity to highlight what is being done in their local authority areas. We have to recognise what an important role local government plays in taking forward the jobs agenda.

I am pleased to confirm the work of the Scottish Employability Forum. Although the title includes the word “employability,” the forum actually focuses on all employment issues, because as the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) made clear in an intervention, things are not working as well as they could be for the Scottish Government in their partnerships with both local government and the UK Government. In fact, people in the Work programme in Scotland are being refused training, which is a great concern to us all.

[Cathy Jamieson]

I thank the Minister for confirming that the Scottish Employability Forum will consider all aspects of employment. Will he give us further information on any specific actions that that forum will take? When will the forum report, and when will it make recommendations on its outcomes?

[David Mundell]

The forum will meet for the first time early in the new year, and its prime focus will be to co-ordinate the different interests and to ensure that there is a seamless programme of support for people looking for work, thereby ensuring that they are neither passed around nor a victim of conflicting agendas. The forum has an important role to play, because it is quite clear that we have to bring together more close working.

I am concerned about a couple of issues that were raised.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

Will the Minister give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[David Mundell]

No, I want to deal with the issue of Jillian McGovern and address the concerns raised by the hon. Member for Dundee West (Jim McGovern) about the Department for Work and Pensions. I would be pleased to hear more about what did not happen in that regard, because I have a high regard for the DWP’s work in Scotland. Every single day in Scotland, the DWP deals with an average of 1,500 new job vacancies; conducts some 7,000 jobcentre adviser interviews; receives more than 82,000 searches for Jobcentre Plus job vacancies; and helps an average of more than 1,000 people move into work. The DWP is playing an important role, and if any Member has examples of that not working for their constituents, we want to know about them.

I have asked for a report on why Dundee city council appears at the very bottom of the report on the Work programme, and it is important to understand that, but I want to try to dispel two myths. The shadow Minister sought to perpetuate the myth that, somehow, the youth unemployment issues are a direct result of this Government’s policies. Youth unemployment is a serious issue about which we should all be concerned. As the right hon. Member for South Shields (David Miliband) has said, youth unemployment started to become a problem in this country in 2004; it is not a product of the current Government. We all have to do more to work with employers to encourage them to take on young people.

[Jim McGovern]

Will the Minister give way?

[David Mundell]

No, I want to conclude this point, because it is very important. Youth unemployment is a scourge, and we all have a part to play in dealing with it. There is a serious attitudinal problem among employers about taking on young people. They think that if they take on a young person—this is particularly the case with small and medium-sized businesses—that will create hassle and difficulty for them. We have to feed back to them that taking on a young person is a positive thing. We have to encourage employers to take a more positive attitude to bringing young people into work.

[Gemma Doyle]

I am conscious that the Minister does not have much time, but I am desperately worried that we are not getting to grips with the issues that have been raised this morning. He has been challenged directly about no Scotland Office Minister being involved in any of the key Cabinet Committees on the economy and welfare reform. Will he respond to that point? Will he give a commitment that he will make representations that a Scotland Office Minister should be involved in those Cabinet Committees?

[David Mundell]

The hon. Lady’s colleague, the shadow Secretary of State, has already written to the Secretary of State on those issues, and the shadow Secretary of State was given a full reply, which I am sure she will share with the hon. Lady.

I want to use my remaining time to respond to the issues raised about the Work programme. There has been a misrepresentation of it, which I hope is not deliberate—I am sure it is not just for the purposes of the template press releases that have been put out by the Labour party across Scotland. It is simply too early to judge whether the Work programme is succeeding against its objectives, because it is a two-year programme that has been running for just about a year.

“Outcomes” is a defined term in the report on the Work programme, and it means that a work provider has been paid for someone being in work for six months. It does not mean that those are the only people who have gone into work through the Work programme. In fact, the bulk of the people who are in the process are still on the programme, because they have not been able to complete the six-month period. There has been an attempt to distort the figures to decry the Work programme, and I would be disappointed if any Member present took any pleasure in the idea that the Work programme could somehow be described as a failure. It cannot, because it is not a failure. The figures are not available to make the sort of judgment that Opposition Members leapt to today.

Scotland and the Union

David Mundell Excerpts

Thursday 29th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

I beg to move an amendment, leave out from ‘engineering’ to end and add

‘and recognises that special relationships also endure with Australia, Canada, India, New Zealand, Pakistan, South Africa and other members of the Commonwealth as well as the Republic of Ireland and the United States; and believes that this will also be the case with Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom after the 2014 independence referendum.’.

I reassure the hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) that he can call himself Scottish, British or even Milton Keynesian—it is really up to him. This debate is all about identity and what we want to call ourselves.

I thank the many hon. Members who have passed on their regards and concerns for my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie). I reassure the House that he is back home and making a full recovery. I fully expect him to be back in his place very soon, talking about the Laffer curve and endogenous growth theory as only he can.

Another person who is missing is the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown). We were all expecting his presence today and to hear his words of wisdom on Scotland and the Union, but he is not here. He is a bit like Brigadoon: one gets a glimpse of him only once a year.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) on the motion. It is a good motion. I take exception only with the last two lines of it, as she knows. There is so much more that she could have added, such as the contribution that Scots have made to the Union and the United Kingdom. She missed out the enlightenment, for goodness’ sake, which is an important way in which the Scots contributed to the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom and the Union have also given much to Scotland. The Scots have helped to build and have shared the great institutions of the UK and the Union. We have fantastic cultural relationships and we have had great times. All of that is part of a social union and that will go nowhere. We will continue to be British after the independence referendum and when we secure our independence.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

I am surprised to hear what the hon. Gentleman is saying, because he previously told this House that

“as Scotland moves forward to become a normal independent nation, all vestiges of Britishness will go.”

He went on to say:

“I have never felt British in my life. I do not even know what Britishness is.”—[Official Report, 12 November 2008; Vol. 482, c. 306-307WH.]

[Pete Wishart]

I expected that response. In fact, it said on Twitter that that intervention would be made.

I say to the Minister that, as we examine our relationship with the rest of the United Kingdom, we discover some of these fantastic ties. I accept that there will be vestiges of Britishness. That is a personal interest of mine. We are British. I live in Perth in the north of the island called Great Britain. It is called that because it is the largest of the British isles. I am British as much as somebody from Stockholm or Copenhagen is Scandinavian. That is the reality of geography and it cannot be denied. Hon. Members may want to take forward their obsession with separation by building a channel between Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom. That is the only way they could stop us being British.

I accept that being British is about more than just geography. Of course there is something cultural about Britishness. However, Britishness is an invention. It was a necessary social construct to unite all the nations of the United Kingdom. That is why it is so hard to define and describe. We have heard some great and excruciating attempts to define Britishness. Who could forget the attempt of the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath, when he talked about

“British jobs for British workers”?

I remember the attempt by Michael Portillo, when he described Britishness as anti-fanaticism. However, Britishness is more than that. It is the combination of the 300 years that we have shared and endured across these islands. It is about everything from the industrial revolution to how we stood together in the wars; the Queen has been mentioned, and, of course, there are great pop and rock bands.

I was particularly disappointed with the views of the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) who tried to scaremonger on the issue of culture. He said that British music would be no longer “our” music but “their” music—whoever “they” are. I played in a band for 15 years. I replaced an English keyboard player and the lead singer of my band is Canadian. To suggest that something as free-spirited as music can be confined to borders or frontiers is absurd and ridiculous. The right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West should be ashamed of trying to scaremonger about culture.

One good definition of Britishness—as has been mentioned fleetingly—was the opening ceremony of the Olympic games, which got close to describing and defining Britishness. Danny Boyle did a fantastic job with his cultural tour de force. The big irony, however, is that part of that fantastic presentation placed a strong emphasis on the country’s social ethos, and particularly on the NHS, which the Westminster Tories are currently disestablishing through privatisation. Already, part of that glimpse of Britishness disappears with that very statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

May I begin by passing my best wishes and those of the Secretary of State to the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie)? We wish him a speedy recovery. That is the only matter on which there is likely to be agreement with the SNP this afternoon.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) on securing the debate. She is a proud Scot, as is my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart). I entirely repudiate the sentiment implicit in the comments of the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), that somehow only supporters of the nationalist cause can care about Scotland, be proud of Scotland, or make the case for Scotland. That is absolutely not the case.

[Pete Wishart]

I never made any such claim; everybody here is a proud Scot, and I said no such thing. The SNP has managed to get just one 10-minute speech in a three-hour debate. We have heard one side of the case—[Interruption.] We should have more time. [Interruption.] Even now I am being shouted down. Surely in this debate the SNP should have got more time than we have been allowed today.

[David Mundell]

I am not an expert on procedure, but I understand this debate is being curtailed because the SNP is going to force two Divisions. That is simply a stunt, and those of us who are involved in Scottish politics are very familiar with the SNP preferring to pull stunts than talk about the issues of the day.

I particularly want to thank the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) for his excellent speech. It is heartening to hear Members from other parts of the United Kingdom state how much importance they place on Scotland remaining in the UK. As he said, the whole of the United Kingdom would be the poorer if Scotland left.

In 2014, people in Scotland will face their most important political decision in 300 years. A vote for independence in the referendum of that year is not just for Christmas 2014; it is for life. As the motion states:

“Scotland has always made, and continues to make, a significant contribution to the UK over the 305 years of the Union”.

The Government believe that Scotland is stronger within the United Kingdom, which Scotland helped to shape, as the hon. Member for Glasgow North West (John Robertson) said, but we also recognise that the biggest constitutional question of all needs to be settled once and for all. That is why Scotland’s two Governments worked together constructively to reach an agreement on the referendum process. Regardless of the result, that constructive relationship will of course continue as we move forward. That does not mean that in the unlikely event of a yes vote, the remaining UK would facilitate Scotland’s every wish, any more than an independent Scotland would unquestioningly facilitate the wishes of the remaining UK. Inevitably—although some have sought to deny it today—there would be two separate countries and therefore two sets of interests, sometimes mutual, sometimes at odds, as is currently the case with our closest international allies and as will always be the case between separate, sovereign states.

The SNP likes to talk about partnership and about neighbours working together. These days, it even likes to talk about us all being British, even though the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire told us previously he did not know what Britishness was and had never felt British in his life. You couldn’t make it up, but the SNP does. As the hon. Member for Glasgow North West highlighted, the SNP amendment even pretends that it can wrench Scotland out of the UK and nothing will have changed. Do not be fooled: working together is what the United Kingdom is all about, but the SNP wants to break it up. Partnership is what the United Kingdom is all about, but the SNP wants to rip it up. If Scotland votes for independence in 2014, it will leave the United Kingdom—leave all that we have achieved together over the past 300 years and all that we will continue to achieve by remaining together.

[Gregg McClymont]

The credibility of the First Minister has been a central issue in this debate. What does the Minister make of Justice Leveson’s finding on the First Minister’s attempt to lobby on behalf of Sky and the possibility that that might have rendered the Government’s decision on the Sky issue unlawful?

[David Mundell]

I do not find that surprising. On several recent occasions the First Minister has been brought before the Scottish Parliament to explain things he has said that have been found to be untrue.

By putting together the various aspects of the debate—the economics, the international influence question, the fact that we Scots helped to make this United Kingdom —we get a compelling case for Scotland remaining in the UK, and many Members have made that case today. The UK Government are looking forward to making the positive case for Scotland within the United Kingdom. Today we have shown why twice as many Scots want to remain in the UK than support independence. They are people who know the difference between patriotism and nationalism; people who know, as the hon. Member for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran) said, that the saltire is a symbol of our nation, not of nationalism; people who know that being Scottish and British is not a contradiction but is the best of both worlds, whereas the SNP wants to take our Britishness away from us; people who know that Scotland helps put the “Great” into Great Britain and make our Kingdom united—

[Mark Lazarowicz]

rose—

[David Mundell]

People such as the hon. Gentleman, who I am sure will contribute positively to the debate.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

Yesterday I had the privilege to attend the launch of the green investment bank in Edinburgh. It is supported by all parties, including the SNP, and it is a wonderful example of the UK working together. It is the UK green investment bank, and it is hard to see how it could have been headquartered in Edinburgh if Edinburgh had been in a separate state.

--- Later in debate ---

[David Mundell]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point about the positive benefits that flow to Scotland from remaining part of the UK, and about the positive benefits the UK gets from Scotland’s expertise in financial services, which was one of the key reasons that led to the green investment bank being headquartered in Edinburgh.

This has been a heated debate, as such debates always are, for the topic is very important to the people of Scotland and the people of the rest of the United Kingdom. I believe that people, including me, who know in their bones that we are better together will deliver the result Scotland and the United Kingdom want in the referendum in 2014. We do not fear the debate to come; we welcome it—and we would have liked this afternoon’s debate to have been a little longer, rather than its being curtailed by having two meaningless votes.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Mundell Excerpts

Wednesday 21st November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab)]

1. What assessment he has made of the potential effects on jobs in Scotland of Scottish independence.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

The UK Government firmly believe that Scotland is, and always will be, better off in the UK. The UK Government are undertaking a programme of analysis to evaluate how Scotland contributes to, and benefits from, being part of the UK.

[Lindsay Roy]

I thank the Minister for that answer. Will he explain why there is so much concern among those working in the defence and supply chain industries in Scotland over the future of their jobs?

[David Mundell]

I can advise the hon. Gentleman that, as of April, there were 15,880 regular armed forces and Ministry of Defence civilian personnel based in Scotland, and an additional 40,000 people employed in defence-related industries in around 800 companies. Not one of those people could guarantee their job under an independent Scotland.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

The SNP’s commitment to a nuclear-free Scotland will presumably mean the end of Trident, the end of the Vanguard submarines that carry it and the end of Rosyth. Am I right in thinking that that affects something like 6,500 jobs in Scotland? Does the Minister think that these jobs would be replicated elsewhere, or would those people simply lose their jobs, thanks to an SNP Government?

[David Mundell]

I can advise my hon. Friend that by 2020, there will be 8,000 jobs based at Faslane, following the recent announcement by the Secretary of State for Defence of an additional 1,500 jobs. There is absolutely no certainty about what would happen to anybody employed in the Ministry of Defence or the defence industries in Scotland under an independent Scotland.

[Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)]

The list of recent investment and job announcements in Scotland has been quite remarkable, particularly in the renewables sector. The Minister will know there were £2.3 billion-worth of completed projects to July this year, and that there is a future pipeline of £9.4 billion with many thousands of jobs attached. Each of those investment decisions has been taken in the sure and certain knowledge that the referendum is coming and independence is likely. Why does the Minister think that these investment decisions continue to be made, and why is nobody listening to his scare stories?

[David Mundell]

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman’s analysis. These investments are taking place despite the uncertainty, not because of it. I tend to agree with the chief executive of Aggreko, who said yesterday in giving evidence to a parliamentary Committee that the supposed benefits of independence were “small and tenuous” and unlikely to arise, while the dangers were “large and serious”.

[Stewart Hosie]

The Minister mentions uncertainty, but the only uncertainty we have seen is the massive increase made in the North sea supplementary charge with no discussion with the sector, and the uncertainty for employees now that this Government are making it easier to sack people. Is it not the case, as Douglas Sawers of Ceridian said when he made a significant investment earlier this year, that in the event of independence, the Scottish Government’s approach will be to make Scotland more, not less, competitive? Is that not the truth? Instead of scare stories, we are going to move to independence with a Government who will make Scotland more, not less, competitive?

[David Mundell]

When the people of Scotland make a decision on independence in the referendum, they must be sure that that decision is a long-term one. Independence is not for Christmas 2014. If the hon. Gentleman looked at the Institute for Fiscal Studies report, he would see that it says that an independent Scotland would face much harder decisions than the rest of the UK in the longer term.

[Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)]

13. The Minister will be aware that 30,000 Scots are employed by UK Government agencies to work as civil servants in Scotland, including in the Department for International Development, which has 450 staff members in East Kilbride. What would happen to those jobs if Scotland voted for independence, and has there been any clarity on that from the SNP?

[David Mundell]

There has been no discussion between the SNP, or indeed the Scottish Government, and the UK Government about the future of defence-based jobs, civil service jobs or any other jobs in Scotland. The people in those jobs would face, as would everybody else, great uncertainty if Scotland were to become independent.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

2. What role the Electoral Commission will play in the referendum on Scottish independence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)]

6. What recent assessment he has made of the benefits to Scotland of the UK’s membership of NATO; and if he will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

Scotland is stronger in defence terms as part of the United Kingdom within NATO. NATO is the bedrock of our national security, and the UK is one of its largest contributors. There is no guarantee that an independent Scotland would gain automatic membership.

[Mark Pritchard]

What discussions has my right hon. Friend held with the Scottish Government on their dialogue with NATO, given that so many within that Government are anti-nuclear and NATO is a pro-nuclear alliance?

[David Mundell]

It is not clear whether the Scottish Government have had any dialogue with NATO about prospective membership and it is quite clear that membership could not be guaranteed. As the NATO Secretary-General said, the

“door does not open…just because you stand in front of it.”

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

Rosyth dockyard in my constituency works for the Ministry of Defence and the Royal Navy. Will the Minister clarify whether, if Scotland were a separate country, regardless of its NATO membership, Rosyth dockyard would get work from the Royal Navy?

[David Mundell]

Many UK defence contractors benefit from contracts that are exempt from EU procurement rules for national security reasons, meaning that they have to be placed or competed for within the United Kingdom. Many such contracts have been awarded in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency and there is no guarantee that they would be awarded in an independent Scotland.

[Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)]

Does my right hon. Friend accept that there is an inherent contradiction in saying that one thinks that nuclear weapons are an obscenity while at the same time wishing to join an alliance based on both conventional and nuclear deterrence? Are not those two positions wholly irreconcilable?

[David Mundell]

I absolutely agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman. Some honourable former members of the Scottish National party, such as MSPs Jean Urquhart and Mr Finnie, agree with him and they could not reconcile their positions. Many SNP MSPs continue to sit in government in Scotland, however, despite being unable to reconcile those two positions.

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

7. What recent assessment he has made of the economy in Scotland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)]

8. What steps the Government are taking to widen access to superfast broadband in Scotland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

The UK Government are committed to delivering the best superfast broadband network in Europe by 2015. As part of that, the Scottish Government were allocated more than £100 million to support broadband improvements. It is now the responsibility of the Scottish Government to deliver on this investment by the UK Government.

[Mr Reid]

I am pleased that the Government have allocated more than £100 million to Scotland for rural high-speed broadband. Will the Minister do all he can to encourage the Scottish Government and Highlands and Islands Enterprise to get a move on and use that money to bring high-speed broadband to the rural parts of Argyll and Bute as soon as possible?

[David Mundell]

I most certainly will encourage the Scottish Government and all other agencies to get on with deploying rural broadband. My constituents are as concerned about it as the hon. Gentleman’s.

[Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)]

I am very concerned, as everyone is, about all of Scotland getting superfast broadband. Is the Minister aware that BT is going to use fibre optics in West Lothian, and has just announced that it is going to roll out copper wire into Bo’ness and parts of my constituency? Copper wire is last century’s technology. Will he intervene and talk to BT about rolling out fibre optics to all parts of Scotland, so that superfast broadband is a reality for everyone?

[David Mundell]

I am happy to arrange a meeting involving myself, the hon. Gentleman and BT to discuss that issue.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

In what appears to be a break with the constant scaremongering in this session, may I ask the Minister whether he agrees that broadband coverage percentages should be based on local authority area rather than national area?

[David Mundell]

What I think is that the Scottish Government, having been given £100 million by the UK Government to roll out broadband, should get on with it in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency and elsewhere.

The Prime Minister was asked—

Referendum (Scotland)

David Mundell Excerpts

Monday 15th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

I want to make a statement about the referendum on independence for Scotland. The House will appreciate that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland is unable to deliver the statement because he attended the meeting between the Prime Minister and the First Minister in Edinburgh to secure agreement on an independence referendum for Scotland.

In January this year, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland delivered to the House a statement about the referendum. At that time, we acknowledged the Scottish National Party’s victory in the May 2012 Scottish parliamentary election and its manifesto pledge to hold an independence referendum. The Government also made clear their view that the Scottish Parliament did not have the legal power to legislate for an independence referendum. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made an offer that the UK Government would bring forward an order to give the Scottish Parliament that legal power.

Since January, the UK and Scottish Governments have held consultations, there has been considerable public debate, and numerous discussions between Ministers have taken place. Many of those discussions took place between me and Bruce Crawford MSP, the Minister for Parliamentary Business and Government Strategy in the Scottish Government, and I acknowledge his contribution to today’s agreement. Following 10 months of deliberation and four weeks of direct negotiations between the Scottish Government’s Deputy First Minister and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, I am pleased to report to the House that today in Edinburgh the Prime Minister and the First Minister have made an agreement that will allow a legal, fair and decisive referendum to take place.

This is a significant agreement. The two Governments have agreed that there should be a referendum. We have agreed that the referendum will consist of a single question. It will offer a choice between remaining within the United Kingdom and independence. We have agreed that it must be held before the end of 2014. The referendum will be based on the normal legal framework for UK referendums, with oversight from the Electoral Commission. That includes the key issues of how the referendum question will be determined, and how the rules governing spending and campaigning will be established.

Following today’s agreement, the Government will bring forward an Order in Council under section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998. I have today placed a copy of the agreement and the draft order in the Library of the House. The agreement and draft order are also available to Members from the Vote Office. The order will be laid before Parliament on 22 October and will be debated by both Houses of this Parliament and by the Scottish Parliament. All Members of this House will have the opportunity to consider and vote on the order. If both Parliaments approve the order, and after it is approved by Her Majesty in Council, the Scottish Parliament will have the legal competence to legislate for the referendum. We hope that the order will be passed by February 2013. Once that has happened, the Scottish Government will introduce a referendum Bill, setting out the wording of the question, the date of the referendum and the rules for the campaign for the Scottish Parliament to consider.

As part of today’s agreement, the two Governments have agreed that the rules for the referendum will be based on the rules set out in the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000. Those rules were used successfully in the two referendums that took place last year. The two Governments have also confirmed that the Electoral Commission will review the proposed referendum question and that its report will be laid before the Scottish Parliament. That is the same process as applies to other UK referendums. Interested parties will be able to submit their views on the question to the Electoral Commission in the usual way. The Scottish Government will then respond to the Electoral Commission’s report.

Both Governments agree on the need for maximum transparency in this process and for a level playing field. Therefore, as part of today’s agreement, the Scottish Government will consult the two campaign organisations that have been established for their views before proposing spending limits for the referendum campaign to the Scottish Parliament. The Electoral Commission will also provide the Scottish Government with advice on the appropriate spending limits for the two campaigns in the referendum, as has happened in previous referendums, such as the 2011 referendum in Wales on further powers for the Welsh Assembly. In that referendum, the Electoral Commission recommended that the spending limit for designated campaign organisations should be set by reference to the expenditure limits that apply to elections to the relevant legislature. In its response to both Governments’ consultation documents, the Electoral Commission provided its view that that model remains appropriate for the Scottish independence referendum.

Both Governments agree that all those who were entitled to vote in the Scottish Parliament elections in May 2011 should be able to vote in the referendum. As with all referendums held in any part of the UK, it will be the legislation that establishes the referendum that sets the franchise. It will therefore be for the Scottish Parliament to define the franchise in the referendum Bill, as would be the case for any other referendum—or indeed election—on matters within its devolved competence.

Although both Governments agree that the basis of the franchise will be that for the Scottish Parliament elections, the Scottish Government have proposed to extend the franchise to allow 16 and 17-year-olds to vote. It will be for them to make the case for that change and to deal with the technical issues that may arise. There is, of course, a range of opinions in this House about changes to the voting age. However, having agreed the principle that the Scottish Parliament should have the legal power to legislate for the referendum—that it should be a referendum “made in Scotland”—the Government accept that it should be for the Scottish Parliament to determine the franchise. I fully expect that the Scottish Government’s proposals will be debated robustly in the Scottish Parliament. Any decision taken by the Scottish Parliament for the referendum will not affect the voting age for parliamentary and local government elections anywhere in the United Kingdom.

Today’s agreement is important, as will be the consideration of the agreement and the order by this House. However, I would also like us to reflect on what will come after. Now that the Governments have agreed the process for the referendum, it is vital that we get on with the debate about the most important political decision that people in Scotland will ever take. The UK Government have started to prepare the analysis and evidence for which people in Scotland are calling. Over the next year, the Government will publish thorough, evidence-based information that will set out the key issues in the independence debate. That analysis will be comprehensive, robust and open to external scrutiny. I fully expect it to show that Scotland is better off within the United Kingdom and that the rest of the United Kingdom is better with Scotland in it.

The Government believe passionately in the United Kingdom. We will work tirelessly over the next two years to show the Scottish people and everyone else in this country that together we are stronger, that together we can overcome the challenges confronting us, and that together we can build a better future for Scotland as an integral part of the United Kingdom. The debates ahead will no doubt be long, challenging and, at times, heated. However, I fervently believe that, with the support of colleagues across the House, across Scotland and across the whole of the United Kingdom, in the autumn of 2014, fellow Scots will join me in choosing to stay as part of the United Kingdom. We are indeed better together. I commend this statement to the House.

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for providing me in advance with a copy of the statement.

This is, without doubt, an historic day for Scotland and the Scottish people. Now is the time for the debate on Scotland’s future to move out of the corridors of power and on to the streets of Scotland. I join the Minister in welcoming the fact that an agreement has been reached. It brings all Scots, me included, one step closer to deciding the future of our country.

The Opposition welcome the fact that the deal has been reached, but will seek guarantees that both parties will adhere to the agreement in spirit and in practice. We also have a number of questions to raise. Our position has always been that the referendum must be fair, legal and decisive. We welcome the fact that there will be a legal referendum with a single question and a regulatory role for the Electoral Commission.

Labour has always been, and will continue to be, the party of devolution. Labour brought devolution to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and we will continue to make the case for our devolution settlement to develop and evolve. We are, and have always been, a party of constitutional renewal, and we know that the best interests of our people are served by binding together, not breaking apart. In the debate about our future over the next two years, we will therefore promote devolution within the Union against those who seek to bring it to an end.

The agreement sets out a framework for how we will move forward to the referendum, but I would welcome clarity on a number of a points, which I hope the Minister will address. First, the Electoral Commission should clearly play a significant role in the process, particularly with regard to the referendum question and the funding of campaigns. Can he assure the House that the memorandum of agreement ensures that the Scottish Government must comply with, not turn their back on, the Electoral Commission’s advice? If they do turn their back on that advice, or seek to do so, what action will be taken? Given that no other Government have ever done that, it would be exceptionally damaging to the conduct and process of the referendum.

Secondly, the terms of the agreement leave significant ambiguity regarding the funding of each campaign and the opportunity for financing or related activity by interested third parties. Does the agreement ensure that the limits set by the Electoral Commission will be binding? Will organisations such as trade unions and businesses be able to participate in the referendum in a way comparable to that in which they participated in the Welsh and alternative vote referendums? Does the Minister agree that it is troubling that even before the agreement was signed stating that the Electoral Commission would have a regulatory role, the First Minister’s aides were briefing the press that they would be willing to ignore the Electoral Commission?

Finally, we must ensure that there is adequate scrutiny of the agreement and the subsequent process in this House. Will the Minister therefore explain what opportunity there will be to debate the detail of the section 30 order on the Floor of the House? Will he assure me that either he or the Secretary of State will provide regular updates to the House as the process continues over the next two years?

[David Mundell]

I welcome the hon. Lady’s welcome for the agreement and her contribution to the debate that has led to it. It is important that the agreement sets out a clear role for the Electoral Commission in relation to both the question and the funding of the campaigns. It is difficult to envisage circumstances in which the Scottish Government would want to ignore the Electoral Commission’s recommendations. As she said, no Government have ever done so, and there would be not just a procedural problem but a significant political price to pay for any party that sought to do so.

We should never underestimate the Scottish people. It is wrong to suggest that they could somehow be duped into supporting independence by any form of chicanery or trickery that might come from either side of the debate. They are much too sensible for that, and I have every confidence that when the referendum comes, whatever the form of the question and however the campaign has been funded, they will make the right decision.

[Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)]

As an Anglo-Scot, like my right hon. Friend the Minister and the Prime Minister, I believe passionately in the Union and believe that the campaign to remove Scotland must fail.

The Electoral Commission’s involvement is much to be commended, and I commend my right hon. Friend for what he said about it. However, the proposal to extend the franchise to 16-year-olds, who cannot lawfully buy alcohol, drive a motor car or be called to fight on the front line, but who will now be invited to opine on one of the greatest constitutional issues of our time, is surely a nonsense that will create a dangerous precedent.

[David Mundell]

I can assure my hon. Friend that it will not create a precedent. The franchise for parliamentary and local government elections throughout the United Kingdom will be determined by opinions in this House. At the moment, the Government have no proposals to change the voting age, and I do not believe there is a majority in the House to do so.

I say to my hon. Friend and others who share his views that they must now take their arguments to Scotland and the Scottish Parliament, so that the Scottish Government can be held to account when they bring forward their proposals. This is a moment for the Scottish Parliament to demonstrate its own robust ability to scrutinise legislation. When it identifies complexities with enfranchising 16 and 17-year-olds, of which there are many, it can hold the Scottish Government to account and argue against the proposal.

[Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)]

I thank the Minister for his statement, although he will forgive me if I do not welcome the final two or three paragraphs. However, I thank him for very early sight of it.

This decision is historic, and I agree with the Minister that it is the most important that we will ever take. It also has the potential to be exciting and transformative for Scotland when the Scottish people vote yes. I very much welcome the 2014 timeline, which was of course the Scottish Government’s favoured position, and the extension of the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds—also a Scottish Government position.

Does the Minister agree that the most exciting part of this is that, as he said, the Scottish Parliament will be the final determiner of the question? It has the only mandate of any Parliament in the UK to set a question on independence for Scotland.

[David Mundell]

I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman did not tell us that the Scottish National party wanted only one question, as well.

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman, because his question reveals his party’s obsession with process. What is important, ultimately, is not who legislates on the referendum but the decision that the people of Scotland take. They will have the opportunity to end the uncertainty and vote to remain part of the United Kingdom.

[Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)]

May I offer my unqualified endorsement of the statement made so eloquently, if I may say so, by my right hon. Friend?

Does my right hon. Friend hope, like me, that the shadow boxing will now come to an end, along with the Scottish National party’s uncharacteristic reticence, demonstrated again this afternoon, to tell the people of Scotland precisely what its proposals for independence are? May I offer him a crumb or two of comfort? If he will forgive a second sporting metaphor, the Scottish Liberal Democrats will be first off their marks on Wednesday, when we publish our proposals for home rule for Scotland within the United Kingdom.

[Hon. Members]

When?

[David Mundell]

I had understood that the Liberals brought forward proposals for home rule for Scotland 100 years ago, but I am sure that we look forward to the right hon. and learned Gentleman’s contribution to the debate. He has made a distinguished contribution to the discussion of Scotland’s constitutional future over the years. I think the people of Scotland will indeed be pleased that we can move on from a debate and discussion that have been purely about process to ones on the real issues. The Prime Minister and those campaigning in the Better Together organisation have committed to setting out a positive vision for the United Kingdom, with Scotland playing a part in it. It is incumbent on those arguing for independence for Scotland finally to answer the questions and set out what independence would really mean.

[Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)]

The last time the Electoral Commission considered whether 16 and 17-year-olds should vote, it found that 78% of the British public, including the Scots, were against the change. Whatever opinion Members and the public may hold on the issue, why does not the Minister acknowledge that the question of the franchise, for referendums as well as for elections, is plainly a matter reserved by law to the United Kingdom Parliament, not to any devolved Administration? Given the questions that my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran) asked about the need for further scrutiny in the House, how will the House be able to have a prior vote on whether there can be votes at 16 or 17 in any type of poll across the whole Union?

[David Mundell]

I assure the right hon. Gentleman that previous legislation setting out referendums has set the franchise, and that the procedure will be no different in the Scottish Parliament setting out the terms of this referendum and the franchise. All Members of the House will have an opportunity to vote on the section 30 order that will pass powers for holding the referendum to the Scottish Parliament, and the opportunity for a robust debate. All those who are concerned about 16 and 17-year-olds being give the vote in Scotland should make that argument now, and demonstrate the complexities and difficulties of the proposals brought forward by the SNP.

[Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)]

Who in the Government speaks for England on these matters, and when will English MPs be able to settle English issues without outside help in this Parliament?

[David Mundell]

As I am sure my right hon. Friend is aware, the Government have established a commission that is looking at the so-called West Lothian question and will deal with the issue he raises about the governance of England within a range of devolved settlements for the other nations of the United Kingdom.

[Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)]

Has anyone the responsibility—if so, who?—of ensuring that when this debate is reported over two years, people in Scotland can expect impartiality, particularly in broadcasting? That has not always been the case.

[David Mundell]

I am aware from contributions to debates about television in Scotland that people feel strongly about bias in some elements of the media. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that the normal rules he would expect to apply within an election period will apply during the referendum process.

[Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con)]

Does the Minister appreciate that although most Members of this House have grave reservations about the peculiarities of the proposed franchise, there is also wide agreement that the most important thing about the compromise reached by the Prime Minister is for there to be one decisive question on the ballot paper? The future of Scotland as part of the United Kingdom—to the benefit of everyone in every part of the United Kingdom—should be decided once and for all.

[David Mundell]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. Throughout these discussions, the Government’s position has been that there should be a single question—in or out of the United Kingdom—and that in the course of that debate, independence and devolution should not be conflated.

[Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)]

I welcome the Minister’s statement. On the coming debate, and particularly the scope of the Electoral Commission, we have seen in the First Minister’s press conference and televised statements from his Ministers, that they are already rowing back from the role of the Electoral Commission. Let us not be naive about the role of the Scottish Parliament. We are talking about a man who thinks he is Scotland and speaks for everyone in Scotland. What processes will ensure that the recommendations of the Electoral Commission are put into force?

[David Mundell]

I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman that Mr Salmond does not speak for Scotland, no matter how much he seeks to hold himself out as doing so. I do not, however, agree that Mr Salmond or the Scottish Parliament can blithely ignore the recommendations of the Electoral Commission. The commission’s recommendations have never previously been ignored by a Government, and it would be a serious political matter were that to happen. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman, and others on his side of the House, would waste no time in drawing that to the attention of the Scottish people.

[Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD)]

I welcome the Minister’s statement. The exchanges we have already heard demonstrate that Members of this House and the Scottish Parliament have a responsibility to ensure that the outcome of the referendum commands the full confidence of the people of Scotland, and that involves responsibility on both sides. Does the Minister agree that all parts of the United Kingdom have a distinctive contribution to make, that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and that we would all be diminished were we to break up this 300-year Union?

[David Mundell]

I absolutely agree with my right hon. Friend that we are better together and that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and that will be a significant part of the debate as we proceed. I expect people from all parts of the United Kingdom—not just within Scotland although the campaign will be led by Scots within Scotland—to make the case for the continuance of the United Kingdom.

[Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)]

Although there are obviously differing views about extending the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds, I hope the Minister will agree that, as this matter proceeds, it is important that young people in Scotland are treated with respect and not cynically. What assurances does he have that those 16 and 17-year-olds will be equally as able to register as any other adult, and to vote in this important poll that will determine their future?

[David Mundell]

As the hon. Lady knows, that is one of the significant complexities that the Scottish Government will face if they bring forward their proposals to allow 16 and 17-year-olds to vote. If they use the current electoral register, they will essentially allow only those who are16 years and 10 months old to vote. If they wish all 16 and 17-year-olds to vote, they will have to create their own register, and that carries with it significant complexities.

[Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)]

May I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Minister, as well as the Prime Minister, on reaching this agreement with the First Minister in Scotland? Does the Minister agree that we are far better together as the United Kingdom, and that it is now time to determine the real debate in full and look at the dubious suggestions from the SNP about defence, EU membership and currency?

[David Mundell]

My hon. Friend does the SNP extra credit by suggesting that its members have views on the issues she has set out. In recent weeks and months it has become apparent that despite campaigning for independence over many years—indeed decades—the SNP has no clear idea what an independent Scotland would look like. Now that the process issues are out of the way, it will be incumbent on the SNP to come forward with specific proposals for what an independent Scotland would look like.

[Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)]

Will the Minister ensure that Scottish members of the armed forces and their families who find themselves based outwith Scotland during the referendum will be entitled to vote?

[David Mundell]

Scottish members of the armed forces and their families will be entitled to vote under the normal rules that apply to members of the armed forces.

[Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)]

I wholeheartedly concur with comments made by the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw). By yoking together two issues, we are causing ourselves a huge difficulty. Some of us may feel that voting for a section 30 order means that we are endorsing the vote for 16 to 17-year-olds. Should we ever vote on a referendum about the EU, for example, it would be impossible to imagine that we could deny the vote to 16 and 17-year-olds in the UK. We must insist that 16 and 17-year-olds either have the vote wholeheartedly, or—as I believe—that they should not have the vote on this major constitutional issue.

[David Mundell]

I am afraid I cannot agree with how my hon. Friend has brought those two issues together. The UK Parliament will determine the franchise for any referendum determined by it; the Scottish Parliament will determine the franchise for a referendum devolved to it. The Scottish Parliament already has the power to set the age for any election for which it has devolved responsibility, and has used it for health board and crofting commission elections. The precedent for 16 and 17-year-olds voting has been set.

[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

As a supporter of votes at 16, I welcome the Scottish Parliament extending the franchise to 16-year-olds. Far from seeing that as a dangerous precedent, why will the Government not seize the opportunity to consult, debate and vote on widening the franchise to 16-year-olds in all UK elections, including referendums and local and national elections?

[David Mundell]

In simple terms, the Government will not do that because we do not support 16 and 17-year-olds voting in such elections.

[Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)]

I welcome the agreement, which gives us a single, legally based question that can settle the future for Scotland once and for all. However, will the Minister reinforce the message that any Parliament or Government that chooses to ignore the advice of the Electoral Commission will be judged by the public for what it has done?

[David Mundell]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. I have absolute faith that the people of Scotland will not be duped by chicanery or trickery by the Scottish Government or anybody else in making this most important decision on the future of Scotland. If any Member of Parliament believes that any party in the referendum is guilty of such a charge, it is their job to hold it to account in debate, whether in the UK Parliament or the Scottish Parliament. We can be confident, because I can see no reason why the Scottish Government, whatever their spin doctors say, would ignore the Electoral Commission’s recommendations, given that no other Government have done so before.

[Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab)]

I welcome the Minister’s statement. In fetching forward a detailed analysis of what the proposal means for the people of Scotland and England, will the Government commit themselves to an analysis of the volumes of radioactive materials from Scotland that are stored in England? How much it will cost to remove them to Scotland, where in Scotland will they be buried, and who will be responsible for them in the long term? He will be aware that foreign waste cannot be disposed of in Britain.

[David Mundell]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point, but it is for those proposing change to say how they would deal with it. The Government do not wish to break up Britain or want a change to the existing arrangements for the storage of nuclear waste. Those who want to break up Britain must set out clearly how that would be done and what it would cost.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

Sadly, I am not 16 or 17—I am a little bit older—but as an Anglo-Scot, I feel slightly disfranchised, because the decision on my father’s homeland will be made without me having one bit of say in the matter. I request, please, that we, the Scots of the dispersion, have a say in what happens to our ancient homeland.

[David Mundell]

I am sure my hon. Friend will have the opportunity to have a say—he can go to Scotland and set forth his passionate views on Scotland remaining in the UK. The issue he raises has been raised legitimately by many Scots in other parts of the UK, who ask why they should not have a vote. The Government’s position has always been that those in the part of the UK that wishes to leave the UK should have a say in determining whether it leaves or not. That is in accordance with international protocol on the separation of nations and was also the franchise that determined devolution to Scotland in 1997.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

Today has been an utterly fantastic day. The Edinburgh agreement is the next stage in our nation’s story. I cannot wait to get out and put a compelling and positive case for my nation’s independence. The Minister says he wants a real choice and different visions. In November next year, the Scottish Government will release a full and comprehensive prospectus on what an independent Scotland will look like. The no parties agree on so much now—on anti-universality, means-testing and an austerity programme—but when will they get together and let us know what the no proposition for the referendum will be?

[David Mundell]

For one moment, I thought the hon. Gentleman said the Scottish Government would announce their proposals this November, but in fact he said that they will do so in November next year. For a party that has campaigned for decades for independence, the fact that you have no proposals on the table on what an independent Scotland would look like reflects the lack of thought you have given to the issue. That is unbecoming of you and unworthy of the people of Scotland.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. As far as I am aware, I have done nothing unbecoming or unworthy, but it is true that I have given no particular thought to this matter, and that I have no proposals to make on it.

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that home rule for Scotland is available now within the Union, as it is for any part of this country, as a result of a range of Government measures, most notably the Localism Act 2011?

[David Mundell]

First, may I say that I have always found you most becoming, Mr Speaker? I apologise for suggesting otherwise.

My hon. Friend makes an important point. Very significant additional powers are about to come to Scotland and the Scottish Parliament through the Scotland Act 2012, which will involve the most significant transfer of financial powers since the Acts of Union 300 years ago. The Scottish Government and Parliament focus should be on the implementation of those powers to the benefit of the people of Scotland.

[Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op)]

No sooner was the ink on the agreement than Scottish Government Ministers were out dismissing the role of the Electoral Commission in the process. May I urge the Minister against complacency? Anyone involved in Scottish politics knows it is perfectly plausible that President Alex will ignore the Electoral Commission and set his own biased question. Will the Minister therefore look very carefully at the issue of the question?

[David Mundell]

The Scottish Government will propose the wording of a question in its referendum Bill. It will then be open to anyone, including the leaders of other political parties in Scotland, who have engaged in an extensive exercise, to allow the Electoral Commission to conduct the sort of scrutiny it has conducted in the past in relation to, for example, the alternative vote UK referendum. I remain confident that the people of Scotland will not simply be duped into breaking Britain up because of trickery or other such behaviour by any party in the debate. It is for anybody who suspects such behaviour or who is dissatisfied with a Scottish Parliament rejection of the Electoral Commission report, which I still consider unlikely, to make that case within the political arena.

[David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)]

I welcome a fair referendum and share my right hon. Friend’s view that the continuation of the Union is an important priority. Does he agree that the Union should continue on a basis that is fair to all the parties involved in it?

[David Mundell]

I absolutely agree, but I think that the first and overriding consideration is to resolve whether Scotland wishes to remain part of the United Kingdom and put that issue to bed. No doubt in future years there will continue to be a debate about the governance of the whole of the United Kingdom, in which we in this Parliament and those in the Scottish Parliament will be able to play a part.

[Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)]

Harking back to the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) and the Minister’s answer, surely the UK Government would bear some responsibility if the Scottish Parliament and Government want all 16 and 17-year-olds to have the vote? It frankly is not good enough for the Minister just to say that it is a complex issue. He should be looking at ways of encouraging the registration of all of those 16-year-olds so that we have registration not by voluntary activity but in the same way as every other voter is registered.

[David Mundell]

I would encourage everyone to register for this most important vote. The point that I made to the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) is that the Scottish Government will have two options: to use the existing register on which those people who are to be 18 within the electoral cycle covered by that register may vote, or to create a new register. Whichever option the Scottish Parliament chooses, we will urge all those eligible to vote to register to do so.

[Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)]

I congratulate the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State and the Minister on reaching this important agreement. Before people come to vote in the referendum, it is important that they know what they are voting for. When the SNP eventually, in another 13 months, gets round to working out its proposals for an independent Scotland, will the Government put the proposals to independent scrutiny so that people can vote knowing what the proposals would mean?

[David Mundell]

As I indicated in my statement, the Government are already objectively carrying out extensive analysis that will clearly set out the benefits of the United Kingdom, and of Scotland playing a part in it. The people of Scotland will be able to contrast that with the lack of clarity and of any substantive proposals, and the uncertainty, coming from the SNP.

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

I welcome the statement, but may I press the Minister yet again on what mechanism is in place for this House to have a view if the Scottish Government do not take the advice of the Electoral Commission—as they have already indicated will be the case?

[David Mundell]

The opportunity for Members in relation to the issue as a whole will be in the debate on the Order, and all hon. Members will have a vote on it. If the Electoral Commission’s proposals were to be rejected—and there has been no formal statement from the Scottish Government to that effect—the Scottish Government would have to be held to account for that by the people of Scotland, by politicians in this House and by the hon. Gentleman’s counterparts in the Scottish Parliament. I have faith in the people of Scotland. If they see the Scottish Government flagrantly rejecting proposals from the Electoral Commission, or any suggestion of trickery in the question, they will not look well on the perpetrators.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

We seem to have used the piecemeal extension of the franchise as part of a negotiating process. What concerns me is that 16-year-olds will vote on the sovereignty of their country, but six months later they will be unable to vote in council elections. How can that be right or coherent?

[David Mundell]

The Government do not support the extension of the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds, and indeed our Conservative colleagues will argue against that proposal when it comes before the Scottish Parliament. It will be for the Scottish Government to make the case for 16 and 17-year-olds voting in the referendum. That debate needs now to go to Scotland, to the people of Scotland and parliamentarians in the Scottish Parliament, so that there can be a full and proper debate. I remain hopeful that the Scottish Parliament will fully scrutinise any such proposals and, if they are defective, reject them.

[Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)]

The suffragettes did not campaign for the vote on a one-off basis or for a particular part of the United Kingdom. This proposal does a disservice to young people throughout the United Kingdom. Is it not irresponsible of the Government to pass responsibility for the franchise on, when they are clearly aware of major technical difficulties? Should not these be sorted out at a UK level? What would the costs be to the Scottish taxpayer if a separate register were set up?

--- Later in debate ---

[David Mundell]

The hon. Lady’s final question is one for the Scottish Government and to be asked within the Scottish Parliament. Her colleagues there must hold the Scottish Government to account in relation to any proposals that they make on this referendum. I happen to agree with her that it is not right that there should be different franchises for different elections, but that is a point to be made in the debate in Scotland.

[John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con)]

Will the Minister confirm that the Electoral Commission will be involved in the setting of the date of the referendum? For example, I would not like to see it held during the autumn school holidays in Scotland.

[David Mundell]

The decision on the date for the referendum will be one for the Scottish Parliament.

[Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)]

The Minister has made it clear today that it would be unacceptable for the Scottish Government to ignore the advice of the Electoral Commission on the wording of the question. Why then are there no clear consequences for this eventuality in the agreement?

[David Mundell]

We are following exactly the same process and procedures that were followed in relation to the alternative vote referendum that took place across the United Kingdom, in which the Electoral Commission reported to this Parliament, which then decided whether it would follow that advice.

[Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)]

The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) said that he could not wait to get out there and debate this issue. Of course, SNP Members have waited and waited. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Minister and the Prime Minister on the patience and quiet diplomacy that has flushed these people out. Now they can wriggle on the franchise, they can wriggle on the question, and they can even wriggle on the date they hold it, but the Scottish people will finally have a chance to examine their arguments and put them where they belong—in the bin—when they reject this outrageous attempt to split up this country.

[David Mundell]

I thank my hon. Friend for that robust contribution. He is right. The people of Scotland will see through the lack of detailed policy from the Scottish National party on what an independent Scotland would be like. As I have said in response to other questions, they will also see through any trickery or chicanery attempted in the setting of the question, the franchise or the spending limits.

[Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)]

On the question of 16 and 17-year-olds, if—as is possible—not every single person of that age gets the opportunity to vote, there could be a legal challenge against that decision. What would happen to the referendum in those circumstances?

[David Mundell]

I am sure that the Scottish Government will want to ensure that whatever proposals they make to allow 16 and 17-year-olds to vote in the referendum are legally watertight.

[Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

This is indeed a welcome settling of process issues, and it is very welcome that we can now move back to the real debate. As has already been said, next year marks 100 years since the passing of the Second Reading of the Home Rule Bill in this very place. We on these Benches have been honing our alternative for 100 years: will the Minister join me in urging the other Unionist and independence parties to do the same?

[David Mundell]

I respect the long record of the Liberal Democrats and their predecessors in pursuing these issues, and no doubt, as we approach the 2015 general election, they will set out a range of proposals for the people of Scotland. It is important now, however, that we settle the question of whether Scotland remains part of the United Kingdom or becomes a separate nation state, and we can achieve that with a single-question referendum.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Minister referred to a legal, fair and decisive referendum. From what we have heard today, it might well be legal, but does he not accept that the question of fairness and, therefore, of decisiveness rests on the question? His inability this evening to explain what the consequences would be if the Scottish Government decided, as they indicated today they might, to ignore the advice of the Electoral Commission leaves the whole process in question.

[David Mundell]

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. The consequences for the Scottish Government of ignoring the Electoral Commission with the people of Scotland would be significant, and would diminish their argument in the process. I have confidence in the ability of the people of Scotland to see through it.

[Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)]

My daughter, Erin, turned 18 last week, so she will definitely have the vote—and she has already assured me that she will vote to remain in the United Kingdom, because she knows that we are better together. I remind the Minister that the SNP had the opportunity to extend the franchise in the 2012 local government elections, but chose not to do so. Is the Government’s confidence in ceding this territory in the negotiations based on the fact that it will be impossible to implement in the time scale envisaged?

[David Mundell]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s daughter’s support for Scotland remaining part of the United Kingdom. She reflects the views of many 16, 17 and, indeed, 18-year-olds, as demonstrated by the polls in Scotland. As the process continues, it will be important that we take forward the issues and debates in the Scottish Parliament and that the people of Scotland are engaged.

[Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I welcome the fact that an agreement has been reached and that I will have the opportunity finally to vote against separation, but why do we have to wait so long? Why the delay, why the dither? Is it not because the coalition Ministers on the one hand and the SNP on the other have been meeting in secret and not taking account of the views of the vast majority of the Scottish people? Our consultation here at Westminster said that we wanted the referendum to be soon, and the Scottish Government’s consultation said—well, we do not know what it said, because they have not published it. The deal has been reached before the consultation has been published. What scrutiny will there be of the detail of the arrangement? For example, will tax exiles have the right to vote? Are we going to have foreign money coming in? Will there be an opportunity to amend not the broad sweep but the detail of these proposals? And what sanctions will there be if somebody breaks an agreement that was reached in good faith?

[Mr Speaker]

The Chairman of the Scottish Affairs Committee has posed at least four questions, but I know that the ingenuity of the Minister will enable him to reply with a single response.

[David Mundell]

I expect that both I and the Secretary of State will appear before the hon. Gentleman’s Committee to answer those questions in detail.

[John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)]

I have great faith in the Scottish people and in 16 and 17-year-olds—we underestimate them at our peril—but I have absolutely no faith in this coalition or the Executive north of the border. These 16 and 17-year-olds will be allowed to vote on Scottish separation, yet, six or seven months later, they will not be allowed to vote in a general election. How would the Minister vote if he was one of these 16 or 17-year-olds? Answer that!

[David Mundell]

First, I refer the hon. Gentleman to polling in Scotland, which indicates that 16 and 17-year-olds do not support independence, and secondly I urge him to take his argument to Scotland—to the Scottish Parliament and his MSP colleagues there—to make that robust case.

[Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)]

The Minister has heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin), my right hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) and my hon. Friends the Members for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe) and for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne) about the issue of some 16 and 17-year-olds being disfranchised as a result of not being on the register. I am positive that, during the discussions that he and his colleagues have had, someone somewhere might have raised the issue of a legal challenge. Does he have any idea how much of a delay there might be, if there is a legal challenge?

[David Mundell]

First, my experience of the Labour party in Dumfries and Galloway is that it is very good at getting people on to the electoral register—and I am sure it will be so again in getting 16 and 17-year-olds registered. The Scottish Government will have to come forward with legally watertight proposals; otherwise, they will be subject to challenge. As we have heard, they could conduct the referendum on the basis of so-called attainers, by which is meant people who will turn 18 within the cycle of the electoral register. It is clear that that could be done legally, but the downside, from the Scottish Government’s point of view, is that not all 16 and 17-year-olds would be able to vote as not all of them would be on the register, because of that age limitation. The other option for them is to create their own register. But were they to do that they would have to be sure that it was legally watertight.

[Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)]

Trust is good, but verification is always much better, so will the Minister not accept that the only way to ensure that the Electoral Commission’s recommendations will be complied with is to bring the referendum question back to the House for a vote?

[David Mundell]

I do not agree with the hon. Lady’s proposition. The Government’s position approaching the discussions on the agreement was that the referendum should be made in Scotland and that the necessary powers should be devolved to the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish Government would encounter significant political difficulties, were they to become the first Government in the history of the UK to ignore the views of the Electoral Commission.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

Why would it not be possible for the voter registration form in 2013 to ask for the details of anyone who would be over 16 on the date of the referendum? Is that too obvious, or is it a simple solution?

[David Mundell]

That power has not been devolved to the Scottish Parliament in terms of the order agreed today.

[Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)]

One of the complexities regarding 16 and 17-year-olds concerns young people not put on the register owing to child protection issues. If the Government think that the question or any other aspect of the referendum is unfair, will they take action?

[David Mundell]

The hon. Lady’s colleagues in the Scottish Parliament will have the opportunity to highlight that point, and of course if any proposals are not in accordance with the legislative framework for other issues, they cannot stand.

[Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)]

Given the responses to at least three of my hon. Friends’ questions about the question, it would appear that the measures outlined in the memorandum of understanding lead the UK Government to believe that a fair and clear question will be presented to the people of Scotland, but obviously some of us on the Opposition Benches have our doubts. If a dubious question is put, will it be open to legal challenge?

--- Later in debate ---

[David Mundell]

Clearly, all Acts of the Scottish Parliament can be subjected to legal challenge. It is quite clear, however, that were the Scottish Government to reject the views of the Electoral Commission concerning the question—the latter having carried out the thorough scrutiny it has done for previous referendum questions—they would pay a high political price, and the hon. Gentleman and others, in this House and the Scottish Parliament, would waste no time in pointing that out to the Scottish people.

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

I wish briefly to return to the issue of the franchise. In the detailed discussions that have taken place, was any account taken of the experience in Scotland of the health board elections in relation to under-18s? Does the Minister agree that it is incumbent on the Scottish Government to say exactly what the franchise would be—whether it would include all 16 and 17-year-olds or be done on the basis of the current electoral register?

[David Mundell]

I absolutely agree with the hon. Lady: it is now incumbent on the Scottish Government to come forward with their proposals. It is also incumbent on those who have a view on the matter to take the debate to Scotland and the Scottish Parliament. I hope that this issue will show the Scottish Parliament at its best, scrutinising in great detail the proposals that are brought forward and giving a fair and objective assessment of them.

[Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab)]

The Electoral Commission is a respected United Kingdom institution. The difficulty is that the Scottish National party does not have a great track record of respecting UK institutions—we think most recently of the attempt to brand our Olympic athletes as “Scolympians”, which I am delighted to say failed dismally. Can the Minister give an example of where the Scottish Government have respected a fully UK institution?

[David Mundell]

The Scottish Government respect UK institutions in their day-to-day working with the UK Government. They do not always want to acknowledge that publicly, but on a day-to-day basis the Scottish and UK Governments work closely on many aspects of devolved and reserved issues. However, the hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point. When the First Minister of Scotland tried to designate part of Team GB as “Scolympians”, he was laughed at by the people of Scotland. If he tries in any way to gerrymander the referendum, the people of Scotland will see through it. I trust them to do that.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Mundell Excerpts

Wednesday 12th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

14. When he last met the Scottish Government’s Agriculture Minister to discuss the common agricultural policy; and if he will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have frequent discussions with ministerial colleagues on common agricultural policy reform. I last met UK and Scottish agriculture Ministers during the royal highland show.

[Neil Carmichael]

With the difficulties in the harvest this year, rising commodity prices and an interest in increasing productivity and production in the world of agriculture, will those talks focus on the need to recalibrate the common agricultural policy towards our production and food costs and prices?

[David Mundell]

We are in agreement with the Scottish Government that the common agricultural policy and, indeed, policies pursued by both Governments, should seek to maximise food production in Scotland.

[Miss McIntosh]

Will the Minister assure us that he will be heavily involved in reforms to the common agricultural policy and that, once agreed, they will apply equally to Scotland, England and all parts of the UK, particularly with regard to cross-compliance measures?

[David Mundell]

The Government have shown by their actions that they are committed to involving not just the Scottish Government, but all the devolved Administrations in developing the UK position on the CAP reform negotiations, and that will continue to be our position.

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

I am sure that everyone in the House will agree that the current negotiations in Europe may have a significant impact on food prices, especially at a time when Scottish families are under such pressure from rising food prices. Precisely what correspondence or meetings have the Minister and Secretary of State had with other ministerial colleagues to discuss this issue facing Scottish families?

[David Mundell]

The Secretary of State and I have had a range of meetings with colleagues across Government and in the Scottish Government to address not just the CAP reforms, but issues such as the cost of living and the economic policies being pursued in Scotland. As the hon. Lady well knows, our view is that the Scottish and UK Governments should be working together on economic matters in Scotland. We would much rather that that was also the view of the Scottish Government, rather than their incessant focus on constitutional matters.

[Margaret Curran]

I thank the Minister for that interesting answer. Yesterday, in response to a question of mine, the Secretary of State seemed to have no grasp of the impact of rising food prices in Scotland. Last week, Save the Children launched its first appeal to fund its work in Scotland, revealing that a quarter of parents have less than £30 a week to spend on food, and Citizens Advice Scotland tells us that applications for support for food and other basics has doubled. We all know, just as the Minister has indicated, that that is a result of the choices that he and his Cabinet colleagues have made. Are he and the Secretary of State proud that food banks are fast becoming the hallmark of his Government in Scotland?

[David Mundell]

The hon. Lady was not present at this week’s reception at Dover house, where many of the leading stakeholders on child poverty, including Save the Children, were in attendance and there was a significant discussion about the issue. She can be assured that both the Secretary of State and I take these issues very seriously.

[Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)]

The so-called greening measures proposed for the new CAP have caused consternation throughout the farming community. In a recent National Farmers Union survey, almost three quarters of those surveyed thought that they would have an adverse environmental impact; half thought that they would harm biodiversity; and all of them thought that it would cause financial problems for their business. What is the Minister doing to make sure that those measures do not form part of the new CAP?

[David Mundell]

The Government are aware of those concerns, not just in Scotland, but throughout the rest of the United Kingdom, and the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), has reported to that effect. The Government will seek to do all they can to minimise the impact of such greening measures, if they are adopted.

[Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)]

4. What assessment he has made of the effect on the Scottish economy of the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic games.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con)]

7. What assessment his Department has made of the introduction of a 50p per unit fixed minimum alcohol price in Scotland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

Alcohol abuse harms individuals, families and communities throughout the United Kingdom. Clearly, a range of responses is required to address the problem, and the Government continue to engage with the Scottish Government on the issue of minimum unit pricing.

[John Stevenson]

Given that this policy has the potential to affect my constituency of Carlisle, what measures are the Government taking to introduce proposals for minimum alcohol pricing in England and Wales?

[David Mundell]

The Government continue to consider the position in the rest of the United Kingdom, and before any proposals are introduced in England and Wales, there will be an extensive consultation.

[Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op)]

12. Sadly, one of the problems that can arise from alcohol misuse concerns people getting into trouble in Scotland’s coastal waters. Is the Minister aware that there will be a delay of 15 months between the closure of the Clyde coastguard and the maritime operations centre being up and running? Is he as concerned as I am about the safety implications of that?

[David Mundell]

As the hon. Lady will know, although there are changes to the management arrangements of coastguard operation centres, the same local volunteers, lifeboats and helicopters will remain in the coastal waters of Scotland. There will be no change, and it is wrong to suggest otherwise.

[Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)]

8. How many publicly funded projects in Scotland have been undertaken by firms which engage in blacklisting against trade union members.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

Information on this is not held centrally. Regulations were introduced in 2010 to outlaw trade union blacklisting in the UK. We welcome the Scottish Affairs Committee’s inquiry into blacklisting in employment, and encourage all hon. Members and interested parties to feed their views into the inquiry.

[Jim Sheridan]

I thank the Minister for his response. I, too, commend the Scottish Affairs Committee’s inquiry. If there is tangible evidence that Government contracts are being awarded to companies that are engaging in blacklisting trade unionists, will those contracts be reviewed?

[David Mundell]

The hon. Gentleman is a strong campaigner on this issue. As I said in my original answer, I suggest he put that view to the Scottish Affairs Committee so it can form part of its report. We will certainly take its report very seriously.

[John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)]

Talk is cheap, but what would the Minister actually do? He must know that blacklistings are happening today. What will his Government do if we identify people who are doing it? What will he do?

[David Mundell]

In the first instance, the 2010 regulations provide a route for individuals who believe they have been blacklisted. As I said in my previous answer, the evidence sessions being held by the Scottish Affairs Committee are a good way of reviewing how those regulations and other laws are working in that regard. We will take its report very seriously.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

9. What recent estimate he has made of public expenditure per head of population in Scotland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)]

11. What involvement his Department had with the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic games; and if he will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

I refer my hon. Friend to the answer the Secretary of State gave to a previous question.

[Mark Menzies]

Does my right hon. Friend not agree that after a summer of sporting success, the last thing that the people of this country want is to see Team GB torn apart?

[David Mundell]

I could not agree more. The success of Team GB at both the Olympics and the Paralympics has been celebrated as much in Scotland as in any other part of the United Kingdom.

[Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does the Minister agree that one of the great successes of the Olympic games was the role played by London’s Mayor? I wonder what will happen to him in the future. Does the Minister also agree that when we come to the games in Glasgow, it is essential that they are run by the city of Glasgow and that we do not have nationalist politicians trying to muscle in?

[David Mundell]

The hon. Gentleman will know that the Mayor of London is a great supporter of Scotland and the Commonwealth games, and of ensuring that the legacy from the Olympics is carried into the Commonwealth games in Glasgow.

The Prime Minister was asked—

Scottish Separation

David Mundell Excerpts

Tuesday 10th July 2012 Westminster Hall

[Graeme Morrice]

I note the hon. Gentleman’s intervention. I am surprised that, although for its entire existence the raison d’être of the Scottish National party has been independence, it wants to get sidelined on the issue of devo-max or devo-plus, without the questions being defined.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, if the SNP truly wanted to get to the meat of the debate on separation, it would press ahead, agree the process—the referendum, the single question—and get on with it? Alex Salmond and the SNP are prevaricating over process.

[Graeme Morrice]

I could not agree more. I will certainly develop that theme as I progress in my contribution.

Sadly, the other predictable aspect of the campaign so far is the level of vitriol already displayed by the so-called cyber-nats—small-minded people who seem to glory in spewing forth hatred about their opponents on every available website and online forum. The contributions of these people, who often hide behind online anonymity, only serves to harm the debate on Scotland’s future, not to mention our nation’s reputation as a welcoming and tolerant place. Although I am willing to accept that some of these extreme nationalists have nothing officially to do with the SNP or the yes campaign, it would be refreshing if more senior SNP figures condemned and disowned their extremist bile. Any interventions?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)]

I am happy to have the opportunity to speak in today’s debate, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Livingston (Graeme Morrice) on bringing such an important issue before the House of Commons.

Before we embark on what the future of Scotland might look like, it is important to reflect on the past. If we do not understand our history, including economic history, we are in danger of becoming victims of it, and there is no way round the fact that over the past 30 years, successive Westminster Governments have let the Scottish economy languish. Our economic growth has lagged well behind that of our neighbours and competitors in the UK, Europe and further afield.

In the three decades before the current financial crisis, growth in Scotland averaged only 2.1%, against 2.7% in other comparable small EU countries, and across the G7 countries. That chronic underperformance has had adverse consequences for generations of people in Scotland, and we must ask ourselves why it has happened. Unless we think that there is something inherently inferior about Scotland or Scottish people, or some inherent weakness in the Scottish economy, we must conclude that such underperformance is a direct consequence of poor political and economic policy decision making, and a systematic failure to address the weaknesses and maximise the strengths of the Scottish economy.

[David Mundell]

I am interested to hear what the hon. Lady has to say about policy making and political judgments. Does she still support the Scottish Government’s previous position of joining the arc of prosperity with Iceland and Ireland?

[Dr Whiteford]

The Minister makes an interesting point, and it is important to look at the performance of small nations in the vicinity of Scotland. My constituency in the north-east of Scotland is close to Norway, which I think has outperformed every country in Europe over the past three decades. We should also look at the impact of the recession and at how smaller countries such as Austria, Denmark and Sweden have been more resilient and managed to experience a less deep economic crisis. Even countries such as Iceland that went so far down during the economic crisis have bounced back with much greater dexterity than the UK economy—[Interruption.] The Minister is smiling, but he should be hanging his head in shame at the economic recession that this country is slowly trying to scramble out of. That is a shameful record for a country that has the potential to be prosperous.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Whiteford]

The geographical reality with which we are dealing is that much of our renewable energy potential is located on and off the coast of Scotland. We have 10% of wave energy potential, 25% of tidal energy potential and 25% of offshore wind resources. That is a huge legacy across Europe, and we have to make the most of it. At a time when climate change puts pressures on all our energy supplies and when we absolutely have to reduce carbon emissions, that kind of investment has to happen. We must not discriminate against people in the more outlying parts of these islands because that is where such energy can and must be produced.

We absolutely need to capitalise on that opportunity to create jobs and build on our existing research strengths in our world-class universities, which are consistently being assessed as among the top in the world. In the area of science, engineering and technology, relative to our GDP, Scotland is currently No. 1 in the world for research. We also have a worldwide reputation for excellence in medicine and life sciences. We are doing very well at attracting multinational businesses to Scotland, as well as in relation to a growing number of indigenous companies.

[David Mundell]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Dr Whiteford]

I would like to give way to the Minister, but I am not going to because I am conscious that other people want to contribute.

We also have real international competitive advantages and excellence in key sectors such as food and drink—another area that is very important to my constituency—and, despite difficult times for the banking sector, we have a strong and broadly-based financial services industry, where there has recently been some welcome diversification and investment. I see that as a solid foundation for Scotland economically and there is no reason why, with those opportunities, we cannot succeed. Scotland has the assets and the fiscal balances and, with the ability to make independent policy decisions, we would have the tools to grow our economy.

Another myth that has been touched on today is that we would want to abandon sterling. I want to make it absolutely clear that no one is proposing dispensing with sterling. Retaining the pound is in the interests of Scotland, the rest of the UK and the currency itself. A free flow of goods, services, labour and capital is in everyone’s interest, and a sterling zone will provide businesses both in Scotland and in the rest of the UK with the certainty and stability for trade, investment and growth.

There is no doubt that monetary policy underpins price and macro-economic stability, but it is a blunt tool for tackling Scotland’s other economic challenges. It will not address youth unemployment; it will not directly lead to investment in infrastructure or promote innovation; it will not boost skills, target overseas investment or promote investment in key sectors; and, to come back to the point I made at the start, it will not integrate our tax, health, education and benefit systems to maximise economic opportunity and tackle inequality. That is why I believe we need to be independent and to have real policy-making powers in Scotland.

[David Mundell]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Dr Whiteford]

I will not, thank you.

Frankly, the Scottish Parliament would do a better job of welfare reform than the UK Government, who seem intent on vilifying people who do not have a lot of money. Instead, we could develop a more workable system. The Scottish Parliament is already doing a better job on health, and we are not going down the road towards privatisation. In addition, we are doing a better job on education, and we are not charging students £9,000 a year to complete their studies in higher education. The current levers open to the Scottish Parliament do not go nearly far enough to realise our economic potential.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

As always, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I congratulate the hon. Member for Livingston (Graeme Morrice) on securing this debate on the economic consequences of Scottish separation, and on his detailed and positive case for why Scotland would be better off remaining part of the United Kingdom. I also want to thank all hon. Members who took part in the debate, including the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) who set out the positive Unionist case and talked about the support for Scotland staying within the United Kingdom that comes from other parts of the United Kingdom.

The hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) identified the increasingly perplexing issue of the separatists arguing on the one hand that everything would be different in a new Scotland, and, on the other, that everything would be the same—if we are in any way worried about any particular aspect of separation.

The hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar) gave his usual erudite exposition of the issues, and was commendably brief. The nub of the matter is that we must get on with the debate about whether or not Scotland should remain a part of the United Kingdom, and about what would be better for Scotland.

The hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) made a persuasive case for Scotland remaining part of the United Kingdom. I will not repeat his points; suffice it to say that—other than his criticism of the Government—I agreed with everything he said.

The contribution of the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) was brave because she mentioned independence—something that, as I understand it, is not encouraged nowadays in the Scottish National party. Then both she and the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) went on to say that they supported a single-question referendum. I am glad that they said that here in this debate.

[Mr Weir]

I cannot understand both Unionist parties’ obsession with that issue. The SNP has made it clear that it is in favour of a single question. It is for others to put forward an argument for a second question.

[David Mundell]

The hon. Gentleman must convey that message to Mr Salmond. If Mr Salmond is in agreement with members of the Scottish National party, he has the opportunity to proceed now with a single-question referendum. It is he who is prevaricating on the issue of the referendum, and not this Government, who have offered to facilitate the SNP manifesto commitment to a single-question independence referendum.

[Mr Weir]

The Minister is missing the point completely. The referendum is for the Scottish people. There has been a consultation, of which we are awaiting the results, as to whether or not there is demand for a second question. It is about not the First Minister driving that demand but whether there is demand from the Scottish people.

[David Mundell]

I tend to agree with the editorial of the Daily Record, which often, in my experience, reflects the views of the Scottish people. It has described Mr Salmond’s current tactics as a

“desperate-looking ploy that has left Salmond isolated and open to public ridicule.”

That is the case. Although separation is the Scottish Government’s policy and not ours, we have made it clear that, as a Government, we are prepared to facilitate a legal, fair and decisive referendum to settle this issue.

[Michael Connarty]

Is not Mr Salmond feart of having a single-question referendum?

[David Mundell]

I am sure that many people will make that analysis. The UK Government referendum consultation showed a strong majority in favour of a single question and robust reasons why that should be the case. Seventy-five per cent of respondents agreed with the UK Government that a single question would ensure a decisive outcome. The support for a single question is clear and growing, and today’s Scottish papers—if the SNP takes any notice of them—confirm that.

All three pro-UK parties have made it clear that they support a single-question referendum. Even the SNP officially support a single question. Both campaigns in Scotland are in favour of a single question. Margo MacDonald and the Greens have now joined the call for a single question on independence. The coalition Government are offering the Scottish Government the opportunity to deliver a legal referendum by giving them the legal power that they do not currently hold. We are offering to deliver the SNP’s manifesto commitment.

The SNP won a majority at the 2011 Scottish Parliament election on the basis of a manifesto commitment to an independence referendum, not to further devolution, and it is on that single question that it can claim to have a mandate. Independence is of course the founding principle of the SNP; this is its big chance to hold the referendum that it has pledged to hold in successive manifestos. If the SNP now does a U-turn and demands a second question on the ballot paper, it will be an up-front admission of defeat and an acknowledgement that the First Minister believes that he cannot win a single-question referendum on separation.

[Tom Greatrex]

The hon. Member for Angus probably let the cat out of the bag when he talked about the Scottish Government’s and SNP’s consultation. When the results of that are analysed, does the Minister think it would be interesting and useful to see how many contributions asking for a second question came after the May local government elections, and how many came from SNP councillors and SNP members on a standard format?

[David Mundell]

That will indeed be an interesting analysis. It is quite clear that the SNP and the First Minister are prevaricating on the question of the referendum. We have been calling for talks with the First Minister to be resumed so that Scotland’s two Governments can work together to deliver a legal, fair and decisive referendum. We need to get the referendum process agreed as soon as possible, so that we can get on to the real debate about Scotland’s future and whether Scotland should remain part of the UK.

[Anas Sarwar]

Did any SNP parliamentarians, or the SNP itself, put in a submission to the UK Government’s consultation, and if so, did they ask for one question or two?

[David Mundell]

The SNP did make a submission to the UK Government consultation and we welcomed it. As SNP members have stated, the SNP’s position is to have a single-question referendum. The Daily Record editorial today said:

“Salmond should stop playing games and start campaigning on the issues if he still believes he has a chance of realising his lifelong dream of independence. We need a proper decision as soon as possible. Then Scotland’s leaders can get back to more pressing matters”,

such as the economy, employment and education. That is the UK Government’s position.

In stark contrast with the Scottish Government, we are committed to getting the referendum process agreed and to getting on with the real debate. We have announced a programme of work that will set out in the period leading up to the referendum the benefits of remaining part of the United Kingdom. I am convinced, as are many Members here, that we will convince the people of Scotland that we are better together as part of the United Kingdom.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Mundell Excerpts

Wednesday 20th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

2. What discussions he has had on the effect of the Scottish Government’s modern apprenticeship scheme on employment in Scotland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

I am in regular contact with the Scottish Government on a range of issues. Later this week, the British-Irish Council is due to discuss the effectiveness of programmes and policies to support youth employment in Members’ respective Administrations.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

In the Scottish Parliament last week, the Labour spokesperson on youth unemployment, Kezia Dugdale MSP, uncovered figures showing that of the 25,000 modern apprenticeships that the Scottish Government claim to have set up, more than 10,000 involved people who were already in work. Does the Minister agree that the Scottish Government should spend public money on creating additional jobs, and not just on rebadging jobs?

[David Mundell]

I share the hon. Lady’s concerns about how the Scottish Government seek to present facts. The facts of their responsibilities on employment matters are clear, and they have had £22 million of additional money in relation to youth contract consequentials. I should like them to focus on how they spend that money rather than on their obsession with the constitution.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con)]

Is the Minister aware that almost every economic analysis shows beyond doubt that employment prospects in Scotland would be significantly reduced if Scotland were separate from the UK?

[David Mundell]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend, who I am sure will welcome with me the fact that employment in Scotland increased by 18,000 in the last period.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

I am sure that, like me, the Minister has witnessed the Labour party’s ridiculous and scurrilous campaign against what is undoubtedly one of the most successful modern apprenticeship schemes in Scotland. Seemingly, Labour Members’ complaint is against rules that they introduced themselves. Should the Minister not instead congratulate the Scottish Government on almost doubling the number of modern apprenticeships in the past year and on the extra £72 million of investment?

[David Mundell]

I noticed that the hon. Gentleman did not mention the word “independence”, so he is obviously on message. On unemployment in Scotland, including youth unemployment, the UK and Scottish Governments should work together.

[Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)]

3. What steps he is taking to expand employment opportunities in Scotland.

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[Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con)]

4. What recent discussions representatives of his Department have had with representatives of the Scottish agricultural industry.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

I meet regularly with representatives of the Scottish agricultural industry, including the National Farmers Union of Scotland and individual producers. I look forward to further direct engagement tomorrow, when I attend the royal highland show.

[Amber Rudd]

Does the Minister agree that those in the Scottish agricultural sector are better off with Scotland remaining part of the UK?

[David Mundell]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. An independent Scotland would shrink our home market of 60 million consumers to a mere 5 million overnight. Farmers would be reliant on exporting their produce. Some 64% of Scottish beef was sold to the rest of the UK, as the first point of delivery, in 2011.

[Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)]

Perhaps the Minister could try answering a question about something that is actually the responsibility of the UK Government. Is he aware of the huge concern in the Scottish agricultural and horticultural sectors about the future of the seasonal agricultural workers scheme, which is due to expire next year? Has he made representations to the Home Office for the continuation of the scheme?

[David Mundell]

I note the hon. Gentleman’s concerns and I would be happy to meet him to discuss them further.

[Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)]

6. What recent discussions he has had with the Scottish Government on youth unemployment.

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[Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)]

7. What steps he is taking to reduce energy prices in Scotland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

The Government are committed to ensuring that consumers get the best deal for their energy usage, and have put in place measures to help to reduce household energy bills. In May, I held a summit in Rutherglen, bringing together the big six energy suppliers, Scottish consumer groups and the regulator, Ofgem, to examine ways of addressing this issue.

[Mr Clarke]

Over the past eight years, average energy prices have increased by 140% per household, while the increase in average income for households has been a mere 20%. What are the Government doing to respond to people’s worries—especially those of low-income families, elderly people and people with disabilities—and to deal with this onslaught on vulnerable people?

[David Mundell]

The Government are continuing the cold weather and winter fuel payments, and bringing forward the green deal. We are also working with voluntary organisations across Scotland to help them to support the most vulnerable people, so that they can access all the fuel-related benefits that are available to them.

[Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)]

Many islanders are telling me that the 5p fuel duty discount is not being passed on to the motorist. Will the Minister ask Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and the Office of Fair Trading to investigate this matter? They must ensure that this discount is passed on to the motorist in its entirety.

[David Mundell]

I am concerned to hear what the hon. Gentleman is saying, and I would be happy to meet him and other concerned island MPs to discuss the matter.

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

8. What steps he is taking to reform central Government funding for the devolved Government in Scotland.

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[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

The UK Government have worked hard to influence the content of the “General Approach” at the Fisheries Council. It would deliver positive benefits for Scotland’s fisheries and those who depend on them, and I welcome its commitment to manage fish stocks sustainably, to move towards more regionalised fisheries management and to ensure that discards are eliminated.

[Dr Whiteford]

I also welcome the progress that was made in Luxembourg last week, but does the Minister think that this would be an appropriate juncture in the process at which to introduce more transparency into fisheries management in the form of the UK Government making public the individuals and companies that hold fish quota here?

[David Mundell]

I agree with the hon. Lady that it is important for the UK Government and the Scottish Government to work well together, and the recent Fisheries Council is a good example of them doing that for the benefit of Scotland’s fishermen.

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) is absolutely right: we need a register of active fishermen—[Interruption.]

[Miss McIntosh]

—and fisheries. [Laughter.] The hon. Lady is absolutely right that, without a register, we do not know who are active fishermen in Scotland and who are slipper skippers.

[David Mundell]

Ministers both here in the UK Government and in the Scottish Government will have heard the comments of my hon. Friend, who is a respected contributor on such matters.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

11. What plans he has to mark the bicentenary of Dr David Livingstone’s birth in March 2013.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

I have met representatives of the Scotland-Malawi partnership to discuss the best way for the UK Government to mark this bicentenary. The Scotland Office will hold a commemorative event at Dover house. My officials will work with other interested parties to ensure that this anniversary is celebrated across the UK.

[Tom Greatrex]

I thank the Minister for his reply. Will he join me in supporting my invitation to the President of Malawi, Joyce Banda, to visit the UK during the bicentenary and as part of that visit to come to Blantyre, Lanarkshire, in my constituency?

[David Mundell]

I commend the hon. Gentleman for the role he has played in promoting the David Livingstone bicentenary, which has great resonance in his constituency. Yes, the Scotland Office will work with him and others to encourage the President of Malawi to come to Scotland.