Better Regulation

David Lidington Excerpts

Monday 8th February 2016 General Committees

[Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Vaz. I have two brief, pragmatic questions.

The document sets out ways in which consultation can be improved and cites the 12-week rule as the appropriate framework. That mirrors the Cabinet Office guidance on consultation, to which the Government—certainly, in my experience—rarely conform in practice despite requiring others, such as local government, to adhere to it. Is it possible for the document to be more closely aligned to our Cabinet Office guidance? The Cabinet Office guidance is really good. It specifies not only that there is a 12-week timescale, but that it should not span times when it is more difficult to engage with the public such as the six to eight weeks of the summer holidays or, at least, the month of August when the Government go into standby mode.

My second question is about feedback. The one thing that really irritates people about consultation is when they go to the trouble of giving their views, but receive little or no feedback. Are there any plans to ask the EU to look at that in the document—I did not see any—to ensure that feedback is built into the consultation process?

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

I am glad that the hon. Lady drew attention to the 12-week rule. Of course, that also ties in with what is in the draft reform texts from President Tusk apropos the suggested red card for national Parliaments. President Tusk is talking about having a 12-week period during which reasoned opinions can be tabled, rather than the eight-week deadline that is set out at the moment. That is a real benefit to national Parliaments. I have a lot of sympathy with what the hon. Lady says on both counts. One has to have a caveat in terms of the ability of EU institutions to act urgently when there is urgent need, perhaps most obviously on issues to do with plant or animal health and the need to act swiftly to prevent the spread of disease.

I sympathise with the hon. Lady’s wish that we try to align European arrangements more closely to Cabinet Office guidance, but the reality is, of course, that at EU level we are dealing with 28 different Governments and 28 different Parliaments, each of which has its own arrangements for domestic legislative processes and, indeed, for parliamentary recesses and holidays. For example, in parts of Europe, including Scotland, the summer holiday starts towards the end of June, and there are other places where people break a lot later. It is similar at Christmas and new year, when the duration of the holiday depends on whether western or Orthodox Christianity is the mainstream in a particular country. Although we have probably got a decent distance, I accept that there is further to go, but we must bear in mind such complicating factors.

[Pat Glass]

And on feedback?

[Mr Lidington]

On feedback, the text of the interinstitutional agreement contains a certain amount that goes in the direction that the hon. Lady suggests, particularly annex 1 to the agreement and the new arrangements for consultations in the preparation and drawing-up of delegated Acts—in other words, EU secondary legislation, the equivalent of statutory instruments here.

One of the benefits of the interinstitutional agreement that we now have is that there is a commitment to involve member states’ experts much more closely in the preparation of draft delegated Acts and in a timely manner. There is a specific requirement for the Commission to say openly, at the end of any meeting of member state experts, what conclusions it has drawn, how it will take those experts’ views into consideration and how it intends to proceed. Those conclusions will be recorded in the minutes of the meeting. There is a permissive provision in the rules for broader groups of stakeholders to be involved in the preparation and drawing-up of delegated Acts, so there are some measures in the text that take us very much in the direction that the hon. Lady suggests.

More generally, in terms of its better regulation proposals, the Commission has chosen to make more information available at an earlier stage. Stakeholders’ comments will therefore be more relevant and helpful because they will have access to the documents—the road maps and the inception impact assessments—that will give more detail about the policy initiative in question. Clearly, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating, but the proposals amount to a very useful step forward from the previous position.

[The Chair]

As no more Members wish to ask questions, we will proceed to the debate on the motion.

Motion made, and Question proposed,

That the Committee takes note of European Union Documents No. 9079/15 and Addenda 1 and 2, Commission Communication: Better regulation for better results-An EU agenda and No. 9121/15 and addendum 1, Commission Communication: Proposal for an Interinstitutional Agreement on Better Regulation (IIA); welcomes the Commission’s intention to use these documents to refresh and take forward its work on better regulation; supports the negotiations on the Interinstitutional Agreement that started in June this year, aimed at setting out the commitments of the European Parliament, the Council and Commission concerning better regulation, interinstitutional relations and the legislative process; and welcomes the Commission’s report on the working of the comitology committees in 2014, which enables the Government to assess critically the effectiveness of these committees.—(Anna Soubry.)

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Lidington]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her contribution.

We have before us a welcome step forward. One has to look at the various things that are happening in the EU in smarter regulation to see that we are shifting the course of the super-tanker, albeit not as fast as I would perhaps wish. Whether Governments are from centre-right or centre-left political families, Europe is waking up to the existential nature of the crisis of economic competitiveness that faces it. We all know that unemployment in many parts of Europe, particularly youth unemployment, is far too high. We know, too, that Europe is struggling with sluggish growth rates. That is all happening at the same time as European economies are contending with the challenge of global competition and digital technology, which is starting to shake up our professional and white collar occupations in the way that automation did factory-floor working a generation ago.

In the light of those multiple economic challenges, the blunt truth is that unless Europe can raise its game, and dramatically, in terms of economic competitiveness, the next generation of Europeans will be able to afford neither the standard of living, nor the social protection, nor the public services that our children and our grandchildren will expect and that Europeans today, from whichever country they come, take for granted. If that were to come to pass, it would breed social and political tensions that would make the rise of extremist movements such as Jobbik and the Front National seem relatively mild.

That is a massive challenge, and what we are debating today is important because it is one element—I put it no more strongly than that—in addressing that profound economic challenge. It sits alongside other efforts to promote smarter, less burdensome regulation on business, alongside the drive to negotiate free trade deals between Europe and other countries and regions of the world, and alongside efforts to deepen the single market to make it as good a single market in services and digital as it already is in goods. Since the Juncker Commission came to office, we have so far seen an 80% reduction in new legislative and regulatory initiatives coming out of the Commission, compared with the last year of the Barroso Commission. We have also seen a large number of the measures that the Prime Minister’s business taskforce called for a couple of years ago translated into action at European level.

In the documents we are debating this afternoon, we see an effort to turn that mentality into something that is embodied within both the corporate culture and the systemic working of the European institutions. We have, in one set of documents, the Commission’s better regulation agenda, which is a declaration by the Commission that in future it will act in this particular deregulatory way. We have an interinstitutional agreement that takes us further than where we are at present towards greater transparency and greater involvement of national Parliaments, and a commitment to improve the general quality and comprehensibility of regulations made at European Union level.

At the same time, we have the renegotiation that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is leading and the draft texts from President Tusk that were published last week. Those texts provide, among other things, four specific targets for the reduction of regulation—something that has never been accepted previously. They provide too for a mechanism for the retrospective review of EU law and regulation and for the Commission, in doing that work, to seek the views of both the Council representing national Governments and of individual national Parliaments. If that approach is, indeed, reflected in a final negotiated settlement, I hope national Parliaments will seize the opportunity in practice to create a kind of green card mechanism whereby national Parliaments work together to promote particular objectives in terms of smarter, less burdensome and less complex European regulation.

While the measures are not a panacea—I would never claim that they are—they are significant moves that take Europe in the right direction, towards being more competitive, less burdensome on business and better at creating the jobs that our young people desperately want and need. We should therefore welcome those initiatives.

Question put and agreed to.

Parliamentary Sovereignty and EU Renegotiations

David Lidington Excerpts

Thursday 4th February 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

The hon. Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass) said that this had been a long debate. I confess that for me it passed in a twinkling of an eye. As the hon. Lady gains in experience of these occasions, I think she will find that this was quite a brief encounter with some of the arguments about this country’s place in Europe.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) on obtaining the debate. I shall move straight to addressing the central arguments that he described in his speech. He is right that parliamentary sovereignty lies at the heart of how the United Kingdom thinks about its constitutional arrangements, and it is true that Parliament remains sovereign today. As I think he himself said in his speech, there is only one reason why European law has effect in the United Kingdom at all, and that is because Parliament has determined that that should be so and has enacted laws which give European law legal effect here.

To avoid any misunderstanding about the fact that any authority that EU law has in Britain derives from Parliament itself, we wrote into the European Union Act 2011, in section 18, that the principle was clear—that European law has direct effect in the United Kingdom only because of Acts of Parliament. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said yesterday, if there is more we can do to make that principle clear, we would be keen to do that. It is open to Parliament, too, to pass laws to rescind the European Communities Act 1972 to end Britain’s membership of the European Union. If that were not the case, if ultimate sovereignty did not continue to lie here, there would be little purpose in our having this national debate about a referendum on British membership.

My hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) is right that standing alone in 1940 should continue to be a source of pride and inspiration to everybody in this country from whichever political family they happen to come, but let us not forget that that was never a situation that this country or Winston Churchill sought. It was one forced upon us by defeat, and only a few days or weeks before Churchill’s speech about fighting on alone, he had gone to France and offered France a political union with the United Kingdom in order to try to maintain the struggle against Nazism. If we look back at our great history, we can see how leaders such as Marlborough, Pitt, Wellington, Castlereagh and Disraeli sought to advance the interests of the United Kingdom and the British people through building coalitions of allies and of support among other nations on the European continent.

[Sir William Cash]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Lidington]

My hon. Friend will forgive me—I have very limited time. Many colleagues have spoken and I want to respond on behalf of the Government.

As a number of hon. Members said, there is concern about the question of ever closer union—about Britain being drawn against its will into a closer political European Union. There are a number of clear safeguards against that. As the hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) pointed out, we remain opted out of such things as the single currency. We can decide for ourselves whether to participate in individual justice and human rights measures. There are issues such as taxation and foreign and security policy where the national right of veto continues.

We wrote into the European Union Act 2011 a requirement that a referendum of the British people would be needed before this or any future Government could sign up to treaty changes that transferred new competencies and powers from this country to Brussels—to the European institutions. That referendum lock also applies to any measure that moves the power to take decisions at European level from unanimity, with the national veto, to majority voting.

What the draft documents from President Tusk this week explicitly recognise is that there should be different levels of integration for different member states, and that the language and the preamble to the treaty about ever closer union does not compel all member states to aim for a common destination. The fact that this is a draft declaration by the European Council is significant, because the treaty itself says that it is for the European Council to set the strategic political direction of the EU as a whole.

We need to recognise in this House that there are other European countries for whom the objective of ever closer union may be welcome and in line with their national interests. Ministers from the Baltic states have said to me, “When you’ve been through our experience of being fought over by Soviet communism and Nazism, when you’ve lost a quarter of your population to those tyrannies and to warfare, when you’ve lived under Soviet rule for half a century, and then you get back your independence and your democracy, you grab any bit of European integration that’s going because you want that appalling and tragic history not to repeat itself.” We should respect their wish for closer political union, in return for their respecting our clear wish to remain outside such a process.

My hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay asked whether we would reinvent the EU today. I say to him and to the House very plainly that if we were starting from scratch, I would not start with the treaty of Lisbon, but we are where we are. The debate both in this place and in the country, when assessing the results of the Prime Minister’s renegotiation and the wider issues at stake, should be about whether the interests of the British people whom we represent—their security, their prosperity, their hopes and ambitions for their children—are better served by remaining in the European Union, which I hope will be successfully reformed, but which will still not be perfect, or by leaving and attempting from the outside, de novo, to secure some kind of new arrangement with that bloc of countries. That is the context within which we should consider the specific issues that have been raised in this debate.

I will take trade as an example, because a number of hon. Members have mentioned it. Outside the European Union, we would have the theoretical freedom to negotiate free trade agreements on our own behalf. However, it is not just a matter of speculation, but what leading trading nations say to us, that they are much more ready to negotiate trade deals with a European market of 500 million people, with all the leverage that gives us as a player in that single market, than to negotiate with even a large European country on its own.

[Mr Jenkin]

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

[Mr Lidington]

No; I apologise to my hon. Friend, but time is very limited.

The reality is that the World Trade Organisation and other international organisations are largely directed by blocs of countries and very large nations such as China and the United States. I believe that the interests of the British people are better served not simply by having a separate flag and name plate on the table, but by playing a leading role in shaping the position of the world’s biggest and wealthiest trading bloc, using its leverage to advance our national interests and winning new opportunities for businesses and consumers in this country.

I am disappointed by the pessimism of some hon. Members. Look at what we have achieved through positive British action at the European level. It was Margaret Thatcher who built the single European market that has made possible, for example, affordable aviation for ordinary British families in every part of this country. It was Margaret Thatcher, John Major and Labour Prime Ministers who made possible the entrenchment of democracy, the rule of law and human rights in central European countries where those things were crushed for most of the 20th century. We did that through support for the enlargement project. The work that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is leading to strengthen co-operative European work against terrorism and organised crime is doing more to aid our security and defend the safety of the British people than we would be able to achieve through unilateral action.

I want us to be in a reformed European Union and in the single market, playing a leading role in creating a safer and more prosperous Britain and a safer and more prosperous Europe. We should be in the things that matter to us and that benefit us, but out of ever closer political union—out of the euro, the European army and Schengen. There is a real prize available to us. That is why I am supporting so enthusiastically the work that my Prime Minister and this country’s Prime Minister is doing to secure that future for the United Kingdom in a successful and reformed European Union.

[Mr Speaker]

The hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) must certainly have a couple of minutes in which to wind up the debate.

UK’s Relationship with the EU

David Lidington Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the proposal for discussion of the United Kingdom’s relationship with the European Union, to be published later today by the President of the European Council, Donald Tusk.

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

At about 11.35 this morning, the President of the European Council, Mr Donald Tusk, published a set of draft texts about the United Kingdom’s renegotiation. He has now sent those to all European Union Governments for them to consider ahead of the February European Council. This is a complex and detailed set of documents, which right hon. and hon. Members will, understandably, wish to read and study in detail. With that in mind, and subject to your agreement, Mr Speaker, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will offer an oral statement tomorrow, following Prime Minister’s questions, to allow Members of the House to question him, having first had a chance to digest the detail of the papers that have been issued within the last hour.

The Government have been clear that the European Union needs to be reformed if it is to meet the challenges of the 21st century. The British people have very reasonable concerns about the UK’s membership of the European Union, and the Prime Minister is determined to address those. He believes that the reforms that Britain is seeking will benefit not just Britain, but the European Union as a whole. Therefore, our approach in Government has been one of reform, renegotiation and then a referendum. We are working together with other countries to discuss and agree reforms, many of which will benefit the entire European Union, before holding a referendum to ensure that the British people have the final and decisive say about our membership.

The House will recall that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made a statement after the December meeting of the European Council. At that meeting, leaders agreed to work together to find mutually satisfactory solutions in all the four areas at the European Council meeting on 18 and 19 February. My right hon. Friend’s meetings in Brussels on 29 January, and his dinner with President Tusk on 31 January, were steps in that negotiation process.

We are in the middle of a live negotiation and are now entering a particularly crucial phase. The Government have been clear throughout that they cannot provide a running commentary on the renegotiations. However, I am able to say that much progress has been made in recent days, and it appears that a deal is within sight. The publication of the texts by President Tusk this morning is another step in that process, but I would stress to the House that there is still a lot of work to be done.

If the texts tabled today are agreed by all member states, they will deliver significant reforms in each of the four areas of greatest concern to the British people: economic governance, competitiveness, sovereignty and immigration. On sovereignty, the texts show significant advances towards securing a United Kingdom carve-out from ever closer union.

On the relations between euro “ins” and “outs”, the documents offer steps towards significant safeguards for countries outside the eurozone as euro members integrate further. On competitiveness, we are seeing a greater commitment by the entire Union to completing the single market for trade and cutting job-destroying regulations on business.

On free movement, there are important ideas in President Tusk’s drafts on reducing the pull factor of our welfare system and on action to address the abuse of freedom of movement of persons.

We believe that real progress has been made, but I would stress that there is more work still to be done and more detail to be nailed down before we are able to say that a satisfactory deal has been secured.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

First, Mr Speaker, may I thank you for allowing this urgent question to be placed before the House today?

It is rather strange that the Prime Minister is not here and that only two of his Cabinet colleagues appear to be in attendance. The Prime Minister—I should be pleased about this, I suppose—seems to think that he should be in Chippenham, paying homage to the town where I was born, making a speech about negotiations with the European Union, rather than first, as is his duty, reporting to this House, to which he is accountable as Prime Minister.

The Minister says that the Prime Minister does not wish to give a running commentary on the negotiations, but that is exactly what he is doing. He has gone to a selected audience in Chippenham this morning to give a commentary on the negotiations but cannot come here to report to this House. He is trumpeting the sovereignty of national Parliaments as part of the renegotiations, but does not seem to respect the sovereignty of this Parliament in coming here today to make the statement he should have done. Also conspicuous by his absence is the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Where is he this morning? He is across the road making a speech there, but cannot come here to this House—to this Parliament.

Additionally, it appears that journalists were given a very heavy briefing and copies of the document earlier this morning, if not yesterday. No Member of this House received it before them; they were given the briefing. Once again: no process of coming to Parliament, and every process about engagement with the media rather than this House.

If the Prime Minister has an unbreakable commitment in Chippenham—it is a wonderful town and I hope he enjoys his visit there—he could get back to London in about an hour by train and give a statement here later on today. Why cannot he do that?

The truth of the matter is that this whole process conducted by the Prime Minister is not about engaging with Parliament and not about engaging with the necessary questioning by MPs—it is about managing the problems within the Conservative party. I believe, Mr Speaker, that this indicates a lack of respect for the democratic process and this House. I hope that the Minister will be able to assure us that the Prime Minister will come here tomorrow, will take questions, and will in future come to this House first rather than going to selected audiences to say what people want to hear.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Lidington]

What my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is seeking through these negotiations is to secure a better deal for the United Kingdom in Europe and to secure agreement to measures that will make the whole of Europe better at creating jobs, growth and prosperity than it has been in recent years. The British people will then be given their say over our future in Europe, which they were denied for 13 years while the right hon. Gentleman’s party was in government, despite three different treaties being enacted in those years which transferred further powers from this House to the institutions of the European Union.

It has always been my right hon. Friend’s intention to make a statement, subject to permission, after Prime Minister’s questions tomorrow. The timing of the release of the documents was in the hands of the President of the European Council. The draft text of those documents has been changing over the weekend, and as recently as yesterday. Clearly, until President Tusk published, we could not come to the House to answer questions on them.

I have been at debates and in evidence sessions before Select Committees when I have listened to complaints from Members from all parts the House that they were being given insufficient time to look at the detail before they had the opportunity to question Ministers about it, so the Prime Minister’s approach has been deliberately to give that opportunity to right hon. and hon. Members and then make himself available to answer questions. The fact that the right hon. Gentleman focused entirely on the choreography of this morning and asked not one question on the substance makes that point for me.

[Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con)]

My constituency office has been able to obtain a copy of a letter sent by President Donald Tusk to Members of the European Parliament, which the Leader of the Opposition does not seem to have been able to obtain. It sets out the broad description that my right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe has just given.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the encouraging progress on issues such as Britain’s possible opt-out in future from ever closer union, the relationship between eurozone members and non-eurozone members, and the ability of national Parliaments to veto proposals from the Commission to member states, are crucial questions that have a big bearing on Britain’s future changed relationship with the European Union? Does he accept that the big issue of how far the British tax and benefits system should be enabled to discriminate against foreigners working alongside British workers in this country—no doubt other member states would be entitled to discriminate against British workers working there—needs to be settled on a satisfactory basis, and then we can get back to the big issue of Britain’s full relationship with the Union and the role Britain wants to play in the modern world?

[Mr Lidington]

My right hon. and learned Friend is right to say that the issues addressed in the drafts and which are a response to the four issues raised by the Prime Minister in his letter to President Tusk last December do tackle the very important issues that challenge every country in Europe and which are of the greatest concern to the British people. The one area where I would differ from my right hon. and learned Friend is that in the eyes of the people whom we are sent here to represent, the question of the abuse of free movement and access to our welfare systems is a very important one, and it is right that that is part of the renegotiations.

[Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)]

We in the Scottish National party support remaining within the European Union and look forward to making the positive case for the EU. Yes, it is about the largest single market in the world. Yes, it is about being able to make and influence laws that affect us, but crucially, it is also about a social Europe with rights and freedoms for citizens and for workers. These questions are much, much bigger than the missed opportunities for genuine EU reform that the Prime Minister has been pursuing. He has palpably not delivered anything near Tory promises of treaty reform.

The big questions about remaining in the EU are far bigger than his negotiations and they need full consideration by the electorate. However, we know that there are important elections in May to the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh National Assembly and the Northern Ireland Assembly, and for the London Mayor and the London Assembly. It cannot be right for these elections and a referendum campaign to clash with a June polling day on remaining in the EU or Brexit. Will the Government now take the opportunity to confirm that they will respect the electorates in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and London by not announcing a June referendum date? Will the Government confirm that there are still no safeguards in place which would stop Scotland being taken out of the European Union against the will of the Scottish electorate?

[Mr Lidington]

As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the referendum Bill was amended in this House to make it impossible for the referendum to be held on the same day as the elections in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and English local authorities. His right hon. Friend and foreign affairs spokesman, the Member for Gordon (Alex Salmond), has been pressing in this House recently for a six-week quarantine period between the Scottish election date and a referendum being held. Clearly, we take seriously the right hon. Gentleman’s views as the SNP’s official spokesman on foreign affairs, but no decision has been taken about a referendum date, not least because we do not yet have a deal and we will not know whether we do have one until, at the earliest, the February European Council. At the end of the day, it will be a decision for the House, because the referendum date will be set by statutory instrument subject to affirmative resolution.

[Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

Of course, for all his fulminations, the Leader of the Opposition voted against the Maastricht treaty. Having said that, how can the Minister justify this pint-sized package as a fundamental change in the relationship between the United Kingdom and the European Union, with real democracy for this Parliament, which represents the voters to whom he has himself just referred? Given that there is no treaty change on offer, what guarantee can my right hon. Friend give that, before the votes are cast in the referendum, this package will be not only legally binding but irreversible, which a decision by Heads of State, as proposed by Mr Tusk in the letter to which my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) has referred, cannot possibly achieve?

[Mr Lidington]

As I am sure my hon. Friend will be the first to accept, the central document in the set issued by President Tusk today is a draft international law decision by the Heads of State and Government meeting at the European Council. That, if it is agreed, will be binding in international law and it could be revoked or amended only with the agreement of all signatories, including the Government of the United Kingdom, so it is, indeed, legally binding. When my hon. Friend has had the chance to explore the documents in more detail, I hope he will accept that, although people have for years said that we could not get a carve-out from ever-closer union, a mechanism for addressing the issue of access to in-work benefits or safeguards for non-euro countries as the eurozone integrates, significant steps towards achieving those objectives are all in the documents. Just as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister defeated expectations in securing a cut to the EU’s budget, I believe he will defeat some of the more pessimistic expectations of one or two of my hon. Friends.

[Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)]

May I, through the Minister, wish the British negotiating team very well in what he has rightly pointed out is an ongoing negotiation? Does he agree that the great challenges that Britain faces, whether from international terrorism, the refugee crisis, climate change or tax avoidance, can be tackled only by us working with our close neighbours, not relegating ourselves to a position of impotent isolation?

[Mr Lidington]

As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has consistently said, continued full membership of a reformed European Union is a win-win for the people of the United Kingdom, because when Europe works together effectively, it can, indeed, do more for the citizens of all countries than any one country acting on its own.

[Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con)]

In what areas of policy are the Government seeking exemption for the UK from the jurisdiction of the European Court, because without such exemption we cannot be free from the concept of ever-closer union?

[Mr Lidington]

The documents do point to areas where very clear exemptions would be made. Clearly, the Court is there to ensure that the treaties are observed by all member states and by the institutions, but if the drafts we have received today are agreed by everybody, and if they take the form of international law decisions and European Council declarations, they will have not just political but legal significance, which the Court will take into account when it frames its response to any particular case brought to it.

[Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)]

When we first negotiated the concept of a red card back in 2003—it is hardly a new concept—one of the stumbling blocks was the mechanism by which national Parliaments would come together to form a collective opinion in order for it to be effective. Is the Minister now saying that he will advocate the creation of a new European institution to allow that to happen? If not, how does he think national Parliaments will co-ordinate without the presence of Members of the European Parliament?

[Mr Lidington]

I do not think that needs the creation of a new European institution. I think that national Parliaments—perhaps this would also involve the strengthening of the COSAC secretariat—need to get more adept at the habit of working closely together so that, as a matter of routine, they co-ordinate in a similar way to how Foreign Ministers across Europe co-ordinate, week by week, on foreign policy issues.

[Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con)]

While noting Mr Tusk’s language about the United Kingdom, in the light of its

“special situation under the Treaties,”

not being committed to “further political integration” in the European Union, does not the Minister agree that, if we are going to stay in the EU, we need to commit to making its institutions work better, which means addressing the democratic deficit?

[Mr Lidington]

Yes, I agree. That is why we tabled proposals to strengthen the role of national Parliaments as part of the system of checks and balances within the European Union. The drafts include a red card measure, which has never existed before and which many people told us was impossible.

[Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)]

The Prime Minister’s commitment to the sovereignty of this Parliament does not seem to stretch to actually being in Parliament on the day this question is being raised. I welcome the publication of the draft proposals, but, given that Britain’s membership of the European Union is about our continued economic prosperity, about whether we are going to protect our security in these troubled times and about whether we are an outward-looking or insular country, is it not bizarre that the Prime Minister claims that this massive decision is down to such narrow and arbitrary demands? However, if he is successful in getting those demands met, will he politely ignore the calls from UKIP and the SNP to delay the referendum beyond the summer, given that that would further destabilise our economy?

[Mr Lidington]

The Prime Minister has rightly focused on those proposed reforms that will make the greatest difference to increased prosperity and job creation in Europe, and that also address the chief concerns of the British people about the current terms of membership. As I said a little while ago, the date of the referendum is ultimately in the hands of Parliament, because it is Parliament that must approve the regulations to set that date.

[Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

This in-at-all-costs deal looks and smells funny. It might be superficially shiny on the outside, but poke it and it is soft in the middle. Will my right hon. Friend admit to the House that he has been reduced to polishing poo?

[Mr Lidington]

No, and I rather suspect that, whatever kind of statement or response to a question that I or any of my colleagues delivered from the Dispatch Box, my hon. Friend was polishing that particular question many days ago.

[Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)]

It is important to remember that the question on the ballot paper in the referendum will be the basic question of whether to leave or remain—with all that entails for jobs, trade and Britain’s place in the world—not the specific contents of this renegotiation, the terms of which could never satisfy the desperate-to-be-disappointed Members on the Conservative Benches.

On the specifics and the substance, the document released by the President of the European Council states that

“conditions may be imposed in relation to certain benefits to ensure that there is a real and effective degree of connection between the person concerned and the labour market of the host Member State.”

What exactly does that mean, and does the Minister agree that the vast majority of people who come here from elsewhere come to work hard, pay their taxes and make a positive contribution to our country?

[Mr Lidington]

I completely agree with the right hon. Gentleman’s last comment. It is very important that, when we talk about the public’s understandable concerns about levels of migration into this country, we do not get drawn into stigmatising those individuals, wherever they come from in the world, who are working hard, abiding by the law and doing their very best as residents in the United Kingdom.

As I said earlier, the texts received today are drafts. We do not yet know the response of the other 27 Governments, so we will have to see at the end of the negotiation what the final deal—if there is a deal—may be. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that, when the referendum comes, people will be voting not only on the package that the Prime Minister has negotiated, but on the broad issues of the pros and cons of membership, over which hon. Members on both sides of the House have argued and disagreed in good faith over many years.

[Damian Green (Ashford) (Con)]

Speaking as a member of the European Scrutiny Committee, I welcome the proposal for a red card system that would give groups of national Parliaments the capacity to turn down Commission proposals. Does my right hon. Friend agree that those, on both sides of the European debate, who have called for many years for Parliaments to have more power to address the democratic deficit should particularly welcome that aspect of the proposals?

[Mr Lidington]

My right hon. Friend is spot on in his remarks.

[Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab)]

Labour Members are united in our desire to remain in a reformed European Union. Does the Minister agree that, were we to leave, we would put British jobs, investment, prosperity and security at risk? Does he also agree that, were we to leave and remain in the single market, we would still have to pay into the EU budget and accept the free of movement of people, but we would lose our ability to negotiate over the sorts of things that are on the table from the European Council President today?

[Mr Lidington]

I have to tell the hon. Lady that, in my experience of debates in the House and the European Scrutiny Committee, I have found members of her party who differ from her on the question of EU membership, as well as those who share her views. She makes an important point. Norway and Switzerland show us that it is not possible to have all the things we like about EU membership—free trade and open markets—but none of the things that we might rather do without. Those are among the issues that the British people will have to weigh up when they make their choice.

[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

May I helpfully read a comment from the paper that the Government have distributed to Conservative Back Benchers, which states that

“this package could mark the high water-mark of EU integration for the UK”?

I remind my right hon. Friend that that is exactly what the then Conservative Government said about the Maastricht treaty. We did not believe them then, and we do not believe him now.

[Mr Lidington]

My hon. Friend has been consistent, at least, in his opposition to British membership of the European Union for many years, regardless of the terms that Ministers suggested for such membership. I believe that he is wrong, because the kinds of institutional and legal changes proposed in these texts indicate a very different approach to the European Union—an approach that is much more grown up and accepting of the diversity of the Union today than ever before.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

On several occasions so far, the Minister has referred to the process being ongoing. He has talked about taking another step and said that we have not reached the end yet, that the negotiations continue and that there is hard work to be done. Can he outline the areas in which Her Majesty’s Government are pressing for more? Are they asking for any more, or is this it as far as the British Government are concerned, and we are just waiting for others to respond?

[Mr Lidington]

The scope for the renegotiation was set out in the Prime Minister’s letter to President Tusk last December, and the document that we have today is a working set of negotiating texts. When the right hon. Gentleman examines them in detail, he will see that various passages are square bracketed, where there is an indication that no agreement has yet been reached. There is work still to be done on those areas.

[Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

May I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and our negotiators for the tireless work that they have done in trying to go forward and create a reformed EU? Does the Minister agree that the issues that we are talking about—sovereignty, whether we have to have ever-closer union, competitiveness for our trade and protection for vast sectors such as the City of London—are major ones? The detail is vital, and I commend him for working so hard on it. We want effective agreements and effective mechanisms, and I think the work is going well.

[Mr Lidington]

I am grateful to my hon. and learned Friend for his comments. I agree with him about the importance of securing these improvements for the British people, and about the benefits to the British people that can be obtained through a successful renegotiation.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

Those of us who believe that Britain’s future is better in Europe still want an ongoing process of reform beyond the referendum to tackle the democratic deficit. If democracy is a genuine priority for the Government, will the Minister join me in calling for more powers for the European Parliament, the Members of which are elected directly and proportionally, to ensure that the most democratic institution in the EU gets greater powers over the Commission, the Council and the European Central Bank?

[Mr Lidington]

The European Parliament plays an important role in European legislation, and I have met MEPs from pretty well all political families who take their responsibilities as legislators seriously. If the European Parliament were the answer to the democratic deficit, however, we would not see the depth of public discontent with, and mistrust of, European institutions that we see in many different member states. One of the problems, which can be measured in the low turnouts in European Parliament elections in pretty well every member state, is that people do not see the European Parliament as accountable or close to their concerns.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)]

May I ask my right hon. Friend whether the draft texts incorporate the precise and clear manifesto promises on which Conservative MPs were elected last May to restrict the payment of in-work benefits and child benefit to foreigners? Yes or no?

[Mr Lidington]

We will have to see what deal emerges, if we get a deal at the February European Council. I think my hon. Friend would acknowledge that manifestos tend to be written in rather less technical language than do legal texts from the European Union. If he wants the language of any deal to effect changes in how the law is applied and how institutions work, we have to use technical language to describe those changes. I believe that the content and outcome of those reforms will, if we are successful, be significant, in line with what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has sought.

[Ms Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh (Ochil and South Perthshire) (SNP)]

What plans does the Minister have to meet the Scottish Government to discuss the proposals in advance of any discussion of a final deal at the EU summit at the end of the month?

[Mr Lidington]

I have already sent copies of the Tusk drafts to all three of the devolved Governments. I did so immediately after they were released in Brussels this morning. I am making myself available for an early conversation with the relevant Ministers in the Scottish Government, and in the Welsh and Northern Ireland Governments, and I am perfectly willing to discuss with them the possibility of a face-to-face meeting as well.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

The Prime Minister and others who are campaigning for Britain to remain in the European Union have been trumpeting the myth that Britain’s security is dependent on our continued membership of the European Union. However, the handout circulated by the Government Whips Office to Conservative Members just before this urgent question states that the Tusk texts apparently clarify

“that national security is the responsibility of member states, and that the EU has no business in getting involved in this most basic of national issues.”

Who is correct, the Prime Minister or the Government Whips Office?

[Mr Lidington]

My hon. Friend is reading in contradictions where no such contradiction exists. The treaties are clear that, as a matter of policy and legal competence, national security remains the responsibility of national Governments in the member states. The Prime Minister, the Home Secretary and the Foreign Secretary have frequently spoken about how, through effective co-operation within Europe on selected justice and home affairs measures, and through effective co-operation in counter-terrorist work and foreign policy work to deal with organised crime, terrorism and people trafficking elsewhere in the world, we can amplify the efforts that we make on our own and do better at securing objectives that matter to the British people than we could if we acted on our own.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

The deal laid out by Mr Tusk is a good deal better than many Conservative Members may have expected. It will not make a difference to me—I will support Britain staying within the EU—and I suppose it will not make any difference to many Members sitting behind the Minister, as they would not countenance Britain staying in the EU under any circumstances. Ultimately, however, I hope that the deal, however it is arrived at, will be enough to persuade people who were undecided to come on board and back the campaign to remain within the EU, and to put Britain’s jobs and best interests first.

[Mr Lidington]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he has said. I do not want to jump fences ahead of the European Council later in February. We are not yet at the stage when we can say that a deal has been achieved. If a deal is achieved, then I think we can deliver the win-win outcome for the British people that the Prime Minister has been seeking.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

We are going to hear an awful lot about the proposed red card scheme in the coming weeks, but given that the so-called yellow card system, which required only one third of national Parliaments to agree, has only ever been used twice and only once successfully, how likely does my right hon. Friend think it is that the proposed red card system, which requires a much higher threshold of 55% of national Parliaments to agree, will ever be used? Is it not the case that the only way for this country to regain control of its own affairs is to vote to leave?

[Mr Lidington]

The red card, if one is finally agreed, would, for one thing, be quite an effective deterrent against measures being brought forward that the institutions thought did not command democratic support in the Parliaments of member states. One of the lessons national Parliaments should draw from the experience of the yellow card system so far is that they could be more energetic than they have been in bringing forward reasoned opinions under that procedure. I would be delighted if the House of Commons matched the record of the Swedish Parliament or the Polish Parliament in bringing forward reasoned opinions and deploying the yellow card.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does the Minister agree that the central issue is that if, whether we are in or out, we want lasting influence over the social, environmental and economic future of Europe, we need to stay in? This candyfloss negotiation—it is not possible to ratify it legally in a treaty, but it is welcome—may be sweet to taste, but appears much bigger than it in fact is and will not have a lasting impact unless we stay in the Union to see it through.

[Mr Lidington]

I really do not think that the hon. Gentleman should be so dismissive of issues that the Prime Minister has put on the table and which matter a great deal to the people whom both he and I represent in this House. There are very significant advantages to our national interest in remaining part of a reformed European Union, but opinions in the House have differed on the subject, quite honourably and openly, for many years and it is right that the people have the final say.

[Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

I am not convinced by my right hon. Friend’s explanation of the Prime Minister’s delay, which is that we need to study the document, because although it is characteristically long on words, it is short on substance. May I draw his attention to page 15, where it notes that the emergency brake in relation to immigration will operate on a proposal from the Commission, and to the draft legislation relating to the euro outs, which says that, if there is opposition to the Council adopting something by qualified majority, the Council shall discuss the issue? Well, that is an enormous difference from what we currently have. I just wonder whether the next 24 hours will allow Downing Street the opportunity to try to make bricks without straw.

[Mr Lidington]

As I have said, this is an ongoing negotiation and we have not reached agreement on all aspects of what is in the Tusk drafts. I would just point out to my hon. Friend that the document also includes a very clear statement by the European Commission that it believes the conditions already exist in the United Kingdom for the emergency brake on welfare access to be triggered.

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

Whatever welcome progress the Prime Minister makes on important parts of this negotiation, will the Minister make it absolutely clear to the House and the country that this is about fundamental issues that go beyond the negotiation, not least our co-operation on such matters as tackling cross-border crime and terrorism? Fundamentally, the referendum will be a choice about whether we are stronger, safer and better off inside or outside the European Union.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Lidington]

That puts it very well. That is the choice that the British people will have to make. I am confident that the campaigns on both sides of the argument will strive to express their views along the lines that the hon. Gentleman suggests.

[Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)]

The big question that is going to be asked in relation to the referendum is about our right to self-determination. People tell me that they like the rules to be made by this Parliament, based on policies decided by this Government. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the brake will be operational only at the will of the Commission, not at the will of this Parliament, and that the red card system will operate only with the permission of 19 other countries, not at the behest of this Parliament?

[Mr Lidington]

There would be a danger in having a unilateral red card for every single national Parliament. I can remember when the EU institutions forced France to lift its ban on the import of British beef. A unilateral power of veto would have enabled the Assemblée Nationale to continue the ban, irrespective of the scientific evidence.

My hon. Friend makes a fair point about people wanting to feel that we make our own rules, but the experience of countries that are not in the European Union, such as Norway and Switzerland, is that they have to implement the EU’s rules in order to access its markets, but do not have any say or vote in making those rules. That is part of the assessment that the public will have to make.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

Will the Minister explain why it is acceptable for the media to have sight of the draft EU plan before this House? Does that not yet again show this Government’s contempt for our democracy, and where their priorities lie?

[Mr Lidington]

I have no idea what individual journalists saw or think they saw. What I know is that the documents were only published by President Tusk at about 11.35 this morning. As soon as that happened, I gave instructions to send copies to the Library of the House, the Vote Office, the Chairs of the Commons and Lords scrutiny Committees and the Chair of the House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee.

[Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)]

I fully understand my right hon. Friend’s desire not to engage in a running commentary on the progress of the negotiations, but will he say whether he has yet received any indication of how well the proposals on freedom of movement have been received in Warsaw, Sofia and Bucharest?

[Mr Lidington]

At Head of Government level, as well as at both official and ministerial level, we have had conversations for several months with Governments in central Europe about our entire agenda, and particularly about this issue, which, as we have always acknowledged, is a very sensitive one for them. Those conversations have been constructive. We now have to wait to see their response to the documents that the President of the European Council has published today.

[Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)]

Ten weeks before the date of the referendum, the Government will be required to publish information including their opinion on the outcome of the negotiations. If they go for 23 June, that information will hit the doorsteps three weeks before elections that are vital to almost 20 million people on these islands and will quite possibly arrive at the same time as people’s postal ballot papers. Will the Minister give an absolute undertaking that that would be unacceptable and that it will not happen?

[Mr Lidington]

We are certainly aware of our statutory obligations. As I have said, no decision has been taken by the Government about the date of the referendum and no decision can be brought to Parliament for approval until a deal has been secured.

[Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is the details that have been negotiated, and not the emotions, that should determine the analysis of what the Prime Minister has done? Will my right hon. Friend confirm that under paragraph 5 of the economic governance section, the institutions of the EU will be sovereign over the eurozone, which will be a powerful tool for the economic future of this country?

[Mr Lidington]

It is in the interests of the United Kingdom that our partners and friends who have committed themselves to the single currency should be able to ensure that the currency union is stable and that it creates the conditions for economic growth and higher employment. That will benefit us, so we will not stand in the way of their integration if that is what they wish for. However, we want to ensure that any such eurozone integration does not take place at a financial or political cost to countries like ours that have decided to stay out of the currency union. The principles that are set out in the Tusk drafts today take us a long way towards securing that objective.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

It is not good co-ordination when Members of the European Parliament, the devolved Administrations and others have had sight of this deal before Members of this House have done so and been able to discuss it thoroughly. On the specifics, the Minister implied in his main response to the urgent question that the deal would include removing unnecessary burdens on business. For me, that is code for reducing workers’ rights. Will he say whether part of the discussion has been about watering down the social chapter or workers’ rights?

[Mr Lidington]

The hon. Gentleman might not have heard what I said a few moments ago, but as soon as the documents were released in Brussels, I instructed that copies be sent straight away to the Vote Office, the Library of the House and the Chairs of the Committees of this House that are most directly involved in the scrutiny of European matters.

On the hon. Gentleman’s second point, there is no contradiction here in supporting good and effective rights for employees at work. Few have been more committed to parental leave arrangements than my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. The Government have a very good track record on those matters. I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is very out of touch if he thinks that significant reductions could not be made to the complexity and the burden that are placed on businesses, particularly small and medium-sized enterprises, by regulation at both the national and European levels. I am disappointed that he does not recognise that and support our objective.

[Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

Can the Minister explain why Iceland can have a two-way agreement with China, while the UK does not?

[Mr Lidington]

I think that if my hon. Friend looks at the detail of the Iceland-China agreement, he will see that it provides more political opportunities for China to develop the relationship with Iceland, rather than any opportunities for Iceland to sell goods or services on the Chinese market. When negotiating trade access with a country of 1.3 billion or 1.4 billion people, we get more leverage as part of a market of 500 million people than as a single country of 65 million. That is the message we get from global trading partners such as China and the United States.

[Tom Elliott (Fermanagh and South Tyrone) (UUP)]

Will the Minister confirm whether there are any proposals in the current negotiations to change the relationship between the United Kingdom courts and the European Court of Human Rights?

[Mr Lidington]

The straight answer is no, because the European Court of Human Rights is not part of the European Union. My right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor is working on proposals to deliver the Conservative manifesto commitment to a British Bill of Rights. I am sure that he will make an announcement in due course.

[Nick Herbert (Arundel and South Downs) (Con)]

Is it not significant that the proposals to give us a legally binding exemption from ever closer union and to protect the UK from deeper integration within the eurozone that might discriminate against us would, if implemented, give us the best of both worlds? We would be outside the eurozone but able to access the single market, and we would retain the advantages of being outside Schengen, such as maintaining our borders, but still have access to the world’s largest market of 500 million people. Would it not be unwise of us to throw away those unique advantages for an alternative that is unknown and risky?

[Mr Lidington]

I agree completely with my right hon. Friend.

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

Does the Minister recognise that if and when a referendum happens on the basis of a deal that is still to be concluded, many of us will see the debate as being about the bigger issues, challenges and reasons, which point to staying in the EU, rather than about the issues in this package, which many of his hon. Friends are determined to belittle as something between a figment and a fig leaf?

[Mr Lidington]

What is in the renegotiated package, assuming that we achieve it, will be an important element in the referendum debate, but it will not be the sole element. There are broader issues too. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that those are matters that both the major campaign groups will want to focus on.

[Ben Howlett (Bath) (Con)]

While the House digests the full details of the letter from the President of the European Council, 6.8 million 18 to 25-year-olds in the UK will be asking what impact this letter will have on them. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact of the renegotiation on young people? After all, it is their future that will be affected the most.

[Mr Lidington]

One of the biggest challenges facing young people these days is the uncertainty about how to get a rewarding job and career in European countries, many of which have appallingly high levels of youth unemployment, although thankfully not the United Kingdom. Career patterns will inevitably be disrupted by global competition and the impact of digital technology. The commitments to deepening the single market, particularly in digital and services; to forging new trade links with other countries in the world; and to cutting regulatory costs, which will benefit small businesses and self-employed people in particular, seem to me to send a powerful message to young people that we are all committing ourselves to securing greater prosperity and greater opportunity for them.

[Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab)]

It is abundantly clear that I am not the only Member who is, to put it mildly, miffed that the Prime Minister can afford the time to give a running commentary to the media, but not to Members of this House. On the specifics, I do not believe that the Minister answered the question posed by my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne), so perhaps he can be a bit clearer now. At any point, have the Government tried to negotiate away or water down British workers’ rights?

[Mr Lidington]

We have always said that we support decent rights for workers. Indeed, we have upheld them in policy both under the coalition Government and since the 2015 election. Nobody is talking about sending little children to sweep chimneys these days. The commitment in the drafts to cut the regulatory costs on business to spur job creation and economic growth is perfectly compatible with decent rights at work for men and women.

[Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)]

I confirm that my constituents in Lancashire are in no way “miffed” by the fantastic progress that has been made in these negotiations. If Britain votes to remain in the European Union, what role will the referendum lock that was passed in the last Parliament continue to play in protecting our national interest?

[Mr Lidington]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. The referendum lock embodied in the European Union Act 2011 remains in force, and it will mean that on a range of important issues, new powers cannot be transferred to the European Union from this country without a referendum in the United Kingdom. There will be a referendum lock on any future treaty change under any Government who try to transfer additional powers from Westminster to the European Union.

[Stephen Gethins (North East Fife) (SNP)]

Does the Minister agree with me and Members from every party in the House—including the Conservative party—that a June referendum would be disrespectful, and that a quick referendum would create a missed opportunity for a full, comprehensive debate on the UK’s membership of the EU, and the best way to keep us in the European Union?

[Mr Lidington]

I always take seriously the need for fairness for people in all parts of the United Kingdom when it comes to setting the referendum date. As I said earlier, we listened closely and took on board the comments made by the Scottish National party’s official foreign affairs spokesman, who said that there should be a six-week interval between the Scottish elections and any referendum. No decision has yet been, or can be, taken, at least pending the February European Council. Only then can we decide what date to nominate, and what statutory instrument to bring forward to the House.

[Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)]

When I introduced the European Union Free Movement Directive 2004 (Disapplication) ten-minute rule Bill in October 2012, I hoped that it would culminate in a debate that would lead to fundamental reform and renegotiation, based on parliamentary sovereignty and control of our own borders. On that basis—I believed that the Prime Minister thought that, too—I have kept my counsel, but what the Minister has offered today on free movement is “important ideas” from Mr Tusk. Surely the Minister can understand the sense of a missed opportunity, regret and disappointment at this suboptimal draft agreement.

[Mr Lidington]

I hope that when my hon. Friend has the chance to look at the text in greater detail, he will see that—if agreed—it will mark a significant change in the direction in which he wished to go. Clearly, it will need the agreement of 27 other Heads of Government at the European Council, and I cannot stand here and take that for granted. He should also bear in mind the fact that the precedents of Norway and Switzerland suggest that part of the price of access to the European market and free trade has been an acceptance of the principle of free movement of workers.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree that some of our most foundational environmental legislation lies in the EU habitats and birds directives, the clean air directive and the water framework directive? Those things can only, and must, be agreed at supranational level. What would happen if we were to leave the EU and try to renegotiate such foundational environmental legislation ab initio?

[Mr Lidington]

The hon. Gentleman makes a reasonable point, but when dealing with environmental legislation, it is important that the principles of proportionality and subsidiarity are rigorously applied. Sometimes it is right to agree on an environmental objective at European level, but to leave a considerable amount of flexibility for individual member states with different circumstances as to how precisely those objectives should be reached.

[Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend join me in welcoming the clear commitment by the EU to tackle issues of competitiveness, including a clear set of targets to reduce the burden of regulation on businesses?

[Mr Lidington]

I completely agree with my hon. Friend, and if we can get agreement from the other 27 states on that explicit target for burden reduction, that will be a first for the European Union.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

We have still had no assurance that Scotland will not be forced to leave the European Union against its will. If a majority in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland who wish to stay in the EU outvote a narrow majority in England to leave it, will the Minister and his musketeers on the Back Benches accept that result?

[Mr Lidington]

I am in no doubt about my position and that of the Prime Minister: we will accept the verdict of the people of the United Kingdom as a whole, and we will regard that as binding.

[James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is something completely absurd about the Leader of the Opposition using his entire remarks to criticise the absence of a Prime Minister to deliver a statement on a renegotiation that will lead to a referendum, none of which would have taken place had there been a Labour Government?

[Mr Lidington]

I think it was a pity that the questions from the Opposition Dispatch Box were about today’s process rather than about the substance of European matters, but the Opposition will have another chance tomorrow.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

I thoroughly welcome the news that under the Conservative Government no children will be sent up chimneys.

Why, after delivering a speech to a group including journalists, was the Prime Minister answering questions from the British Broadcasting Corporation on this very subject at 13.20 Greenwich mean time? Was that not a running commentary?

[Mr Lidington]

The Prime Minister wanted to ensure that Members of Parliament got the opportunity to consider the detail of the document before they questioned him about it. Had he simply come to the Chamber within an hour of the technical documents being published, there would have been all sorts of protests that he had not given people sufficient time. I fear that the hon. Gentleman is trying to have it both ways.

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

Will the Minister join me in welcoming the parts of the letter that talk about safeguarding our rights and those of other non-euro nations in terms of further integration in the euro area? Does he agree that it has been interesting to hear comments about not listening from people who did not want to listen to the British people about this issue, and from those who seem keen on holding a referendum on one Union but not on any others?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Lidington]

I agree with my hon. Friend, and agreement on a sensible design for European co-operation that respects the right of those in the currency union to integrate further, but which equally safeguards the single market—including in financial services—and the interests of euro-outs, is an important step forward. I hope that we can nail that down at the February European Council.

[Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)]

Will the Minister say whether the Prime Minister’s negotiations have progressed to the point where it is clear what the impact of Brexit would be on the 2 million UK citizens who live in the EU, and the 2 million EU citizens who live in the UK?

[Mr Lidington]

The fate of British citizens currently living and working in other EU countries under freedom of movement should certainly be taken into account during the forthcoming referendum campaign. The straight answer to the right hon. Gentleman’s question is that it all depends on what “out” actually means. In my experience, there are a number of different ideas about what kind of relationship outside the EU it might be possible for the United Kingdom to negotiate.

[Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con)]

I know there are a couple of weeks left to tidy up the details of the letter sent by the President of the European Council, but I find one passage, which the Minister has touched on, a tiny bit concerning. It states that we will refrain from measures that could jeopardise the attainment of the objectives of economic and monetary union for our European partners. In the past that debate has been about levels of corporation tax and other taxes set in the European Union, as well as a whole host of other economic factors. Will the Minister ensure that that part of the agreement is tidied up and defined tightly before we move forward?

[Mr Lidington]

There is certainly still work to be done on the element of the text dealing with the relationship between euro-ins and euro-outs, as well as on other aspects of the text. On my hon. Friend’s initial comment, while we hope it is possible to get a deal in February, the Prime Minister’s position remains that the substance of any agreement will determine the timing of the referendum. If it were to take longer than February to get the right deal, then so be it.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

How can the Minister continue to argue that the proposals meet the Prime Minister’s promise that he wishes to restore sovereignty to this Parliament, when, to exercise a veto over laws we do not like or to put a brake on benefits to immigrants, we will still have to go cap in hand to other European Parliaments or the European Commission? Does he not see that this is the kind of deal that even Del Boy would have been embarrassed to be associated with?

[Mr Lidington]

The hon. Gentleman has always been, quite openly, an opponent of British membership of the European Union. If the United Kingdom were to have a unilateral veto on everything, that would have to be the case for every other member state as well. We would certainly find some of the trading and single market measures that bring huge benefit to the people of Northern Ireland at risk from a veto by a more protectionist-minded Government elsewhere in Europe.

[Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Common Foreign and Security Policy

David Lidington Excerpts

Monday 1st February 2016 General Committees

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Wilson. As my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset said, all EU member states have committed to a common foreign and security policy for the European Union. As part of that, the common security and defence policy aims to strengthen the EU’s external ability to act through the development of civilian and military capabilities in conflict prevention and crisis management. Every year, the High Representative of the European Union for foreign affairs and security policy sends a report on CFSP to the European Parliament. At 300 pages, the report from July 2015 covers all CFSP and CSDP activity for the year 2014 and provides an overview of countries’ activities. It also includes such information as when the High Representative appeared before the European Parliament and lists the statements and declarations she made during the previous year.

The report highlights the need to forge a long-term strategy for the EU’s external action. Europe’s security matters to the UK. The threats that we face do not stop at our borders. It is important and in our national interest to work together with our European partners and other allies—primarily NATO on defence, but also the EU when it makes sense in security matters—to better tackle our evolving security challenges. The EU, like NATO and the UN Security Council, is an international organisation that this country can use its membership of to get things done in the world to the advantage of the people whom we represent. Successful, effective EU action can help to protect our country and can play a complementary role to NATO in providing security.

However, it is not about competing with NATO. NATO is and will remain the cornerstone of the UK’s defence and security, but the EU can support UK foreign policy through a comprehensive deployment of military, civilian, diplomatic and development policies—the so-called comprehensive approach. The approach offers the UK a toolkit from which to project stability in both Europe’s immediate neighbourhood and globally. In today’s uncertain world, strong alliances and partnerships are more important than ever before. In almost every aspect of our national security and prosperity, we must work with others, not because we cannot work alone if we must, but because the threats and opportunities are global and our own action will be more effective when working in partnership with likeminded countries.

To give some examples, we worked effectively alongside other EU partners to secure the historic Iran nuclear deal. We leveraged significant EU funding to tackle the threat of Ebola in west Africa. The successful EU missions in Bosnia and Herzegovina and in the Horn of Africa, in both of which the UK played a leading role, have directly contributed to this country’s national policy objectives. EU sanctions on Russia have been an important element of our response to the illegal annexation of Crimea. Our EU partners and EU institutions also share our aims of countering the threat from Daesh and pushing back on radicalisation, trafficking and proliferation in the middle east and Africa.

European nations should work together when it makes sense to develop the critical capabilities needed to tackle current and future security threats. We want the EU to complement NATO’s existing efforts in this area. We also want to help build a more competitive and innovative defence manufacturing and service sector across the EU and to open up European defence markets to British exporters. By improving the workings of the defence market, reducing bureaucracy, supporting small and medium-sized enterprises, and stimulating research, development and collaboration, we will deliver better value for money, cutting edge capabilities, high-end skills, and jobs and growth for the UK economy. We will continue to search constantly for ways to improve CSDP’s effectiveness. Our focus is on the real-world impact of policy initiatives, not institutional navel-gazing and rearranging the structures of European external work.

As I said, the Government have been clear that NATO remains the bedrock of our national defence. It is the strongest and most effective military alliance in the world, and we are committed to working with NATO allies to strengthen collective defence. In September 2014, the UK hosted the NATO summit in Wales. We set in motion new initiatives to take this forward and secured an unprecedented commitment from 28 EU Heads of State and Government and all NATO allies to halt the decline in defence expenditure. The UK has made clear our commitment to achieving NATO’s 2% target, ensuring that we remain NATO’s strongest military power in Europe. We will strongly encourage other allies to meet that commitment.

NATO-EU co-operation remains a high priority for the UK. Some good work has been done, but we need to work harder to drive the agenda forward. In a number of areas—in particular on cyber, countering hybrid warfare and developing security capacity in other states—greater co-operation between NATO and the EU will help us to deal with modern security threats. NATO and the EU already work together in places such as Afghanistan, tackling piracy in the Horn of Africa, and building stability in the western Balkans. We continue to send our armed forces and specialist civilian expertise to EU missions, where it makes sense for our own foreign policy goals and national interest.

We recognise that the world has moved on since 2003 and that a revised EU global strategy is needed. We think that this should form a basis for greater institutional coherence within the EU, particularly between the Commission and the EEAS, where there remains significant room for improvement. On timing, we currently expect the publication by the High Representative some time towards the end of the Dutch presidency, but at the moment that is still very much an exercise by the High Representative. It is not a question of the member state Governments sitting round and hammering out a text; we await her conclusions.

The Strategic Defence and Security Review states:

“A secure and prosperous Europe is essential for a secure and prosperous UK.”

Playing such a central and active a role on the world stage as we do, the UK is in a strong position to influence EU common action. The European External Action Service is already working on many of the priorities set out in the SDSR and can complement UK bilateral work. As the SDSR describes, the EU has a range of capabilities including sanctions, military and civilian missions, and security and development support programmes worldwide. Recent examples include sanctions imposed on Russia and the work that EU partners are co-operating on to counter the terrorist threat posed by Daesh in Syria, Iraq and indeed, through returning foreign fighters, in our own European member states.

The EU “Regional Strategy for Syria and Iraq as well as the Daesh threat” was finalised in March 2015. The strategy is supported by a €1 billion fund. It is an important EU strategy that reinforces the UK’s bilateral approach in the region. Linked to that is the significant contribution by the EU to the London Syria conference this week, where the EU is likely to pledge financial assistance over two years to help refugees in the surrounding area.

The EU has been supporting a range of counter-terrorism efforts in Tunisia focusing in particular on the need to enhance protective security and crisis response, and to strengthen borders, aviation security and strategic communications. It is at EU level too that we will contribute to delivering an EU-Turkey facility of more than €l billion in support of Turkey’s work to support refugees in need and to manage the very large flows of people from Syria.

I must acknowledge that the way in which the report was handled, for security reasons, was not perfect, and I put on record again my apologies to the Committee for that oversight. We have taken steps, including additional scrutiny training within my Department, to make sure that everybody, even when they are new to a job, is alive to their responsibilities. Because the report was published on 14 July last year, even had it been deposited as early as it should have been, perhaps on 16 July, it would not have been possible for the newly reconstituted Committee to meet to consider it before the Foreign Affairs Council on 20 July.

I turn now to the defence action plan, about which my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset asked. The plan is due to be completed and published by December 2016, but we have some indications that the timing might slip and we might be looking at a date in 2017 for the final version. We expect a first draft sometime this summer—I cannot be more specific at the moment.

I remain happy to talk to the European Scrutiny Committee about ways in which we can improve the handling of CSFP documents in the light of its report of a couple of years ago, but I have always said that that discussion must also explore ways of streamlining a certain amount of less important EU documentary business so that my Department is able to provide, without completely breaking its back, the additional documents for which my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset and his colleagues on the Committee have been calling.

[The Chair]

We now have until 5.34 pm for questions to the Minister. May I remind members of the Committee that questions should be brief? It is open to a member, subject to my discretion, to ask related supplementary questions.

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[Pat Glass]

The question is: is it right that the document is about being proactive, about building capacity across the member states? The European Scrutiny Committee believes that the Government do not have sufficient scrutiny arrangements in place, and the Minister has said that the arrangements have been less than perfect, so it would be helpful if he could set out what the future scrutiny arrangements would be.

[Mr Lidington]

I will try to reply to those points. The purpose of the common foreign and security policy is set out primarily in article 21 of the treaty on the European Union. I will not recite it in full—it is lengthy—but it is basically about developing external action in a way that promotes European values and the fundamental interests of security, independence and integrity, and consolidates and supports democracy, the rule of law, human rights and the principles of international law in external action. The article goes on to list other criteria too.

NATO is to some extent reactive, in that it is the ultimate guarantor of collective security for allies. I do not want to get drawn too far into this question, but I think it is fair to say that at the Wales summit and again at the Warsaw summit later this year, we are trying to ensure that NATO is less reactive and is, for example, focusing very much on questions of resilience and how to have effective deterrents and response plans in place against hybrid attack, not just conventional military attack.

EU external action has particular value added in two ways. First, of course, not every EU member state is a member of NATO, so countries such as Sweden and Finland are able to contribute to EU missions, including military missions, when they would not be able to do so as part of a NATO mission. For example, the Austrians have deployed forces as part of an EU mission in the western Balkans, whereas they could not participate in a NATO mission. Secondly, EU work can provide civilian expertise in things such as training of military personnel; training of police and security forces; border work, including the training of border forces; and missions to try to improve the governance of neighbouring or more distant countries.

The roles should be complementary. One could argue, for example, that the cyber threat to military communications and military capability should be dealt with at NATO level, but we know there is a cyber threat to key IT systems for energy distribution and even for retail distribution in a modern economy. It is much more difficult to say that those fall naturally into NATO’s remit, but effective co-operation and complementarity between NATO and the EU, if done well, can add up to a very effective security response.

On the question of scrutiny, with every CFSP document we check whether the document in question falls within the terms of the scrutiny reserve resolution. If it does, it goes to the Committee anyway for scrutiny. The challenge from the Committee—it is one I understand—is that some quite significant policy documents on EU foreign policy, including some described as action plans in the past, do not fall within the current terms of reference of the scrutiny reserve resolution. The volume of such documents is so large that I would be reluctant to agree to submit all of them for scrutiny, so it comes down to a matter of my judgment as to which I send to the Committee.

I remain open to trying to agree with the Committee a set of criteria that would enable it to have oversight of the documents that it particularly wishes to see and that are genuinely important. I would, in return, want to have a serious discussion about the fact that some documents—not necessarily CFSP documents—go to the Committee at the moment that frankly need not go through the formal scrutiny process and could be dealt with in a more streamlined fashion.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I have three groups of questions. The first is on the scrutiny issue. I draw the Minister’s attention to page 331 of the documents. The criticism on scrutiny in this case is perhaps as much of the European Union as of the Minister: it took six and a half months to prepare the report on 2014, which made proper scrutiny by this House extremely difficult. It seems improper of the European Union to be so slow in producing documents that they cannot be scrutinised properly by national Parliaments, leading to a scrutiny waiver. What can the Minister do to improve that?

In response to the Minister’s suggestion of some negotiation between the Committee and his office as to what is sent for scrutiny, may I say that if the Government were a little more up to date with the debates that had been requested, including one now outstanding for more than two years, there might be more good will between those who wish to scrutinise and those who are scrutineered?

[Mr Lidington]

On the point about the slowness with which the EU sometimes produces documents, I am sympathetic to my hon. Friend’s comments. As he will know, I have exchanged correspondence with both the present and previous High Representatives about that, reminding them of the importance of our parliamentary scrutiny processes and the need for documents to be produced in good time wherever possible. In this particular case, it is fair to say that there was quite a complex negotiation at the level of ambassadorial representatives in Brussels, so it would be wrong of me to say this was all down to the External Action Service of Mrs Mogherini.

However, my hon. Friend’s general point is well made, although I would add that there are ways in which the House of Commons could improve its own scrutiny arrangements. It was probably unavoidable that for more than three months there was no House of Commons scrutiny arrangement in place, because from the moment of Dissolution, the scrutiny structure here fell away and did not operate again until almost the end of July 2015. That is not the fault of my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset and his fellow Committee members—it is a side effect of our constitutional arrangements, but the EU machine continued to turn out documents during that time. It will not surprise my hon. Friend to learn that my personal view is that scrutiny Committees ought to have some arrangement for monitoring documents and sifting them during recesses, because that would help the process.

My hon. Friend referred to the backlog from the previous Parliament. As he will know, we are making efforts to try to clear that as rapidly as possible. There is always a difficult balance to be struck in the allocation of time, both in Committee and on the Floor of the House, but the usual channels are well aware of the concerns of my hon. Friend and his colleagues and are endeavouring to clear the backlog as soon as possible.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

As a supplementary, I cannot let the Minister get away with the suggestion that the delay in reconstituting the European Scrutiny Committee was the fault of anybody other than Her Majesty’s Government. The Whips Office determines when these things happen, so I am surprised that he uses that as a defence. I remind him that these areas are subject to unanimity and if documents are produced late, the Government are in a strong position to refuse them and to say that they must wait for scrutiny by the House. It is not a matter covered by qualified majority voting. Moving on to page 337 of the Council’s conclusions, my first very simple question requires a yes or no answer. Am I right in thinking that these conclusions are conclusions accepted by Her Majesty’s Government?

[Mr Lidington]

Let me deal with the first point. My hon. Friend is clearly right that to some extent the timing of the setting up of any Committee is in the Government’s hands, although I think that what happened in this case was that once Parliament had met, elected a Speaker and heard the Queen’s Speech, it moved on to make provision for the election of Select Committees. Quite a few Members in all parts of the House wished to stand for membership of departmental Select Committees. Because the European Scrutiny Committee is not elected in the same way, it was felt fair to wait until the outcome of those elections to Select Committees were known before we moved on to selecting members of the ESC.

It is true that because CFSP decisions require unanimity, we can block things. We have to decide, when making a decision to block something, especially if the question is one where we actually support the policy, whether blocking on scrutiny grounds is going to cause a harm to our national diplomatic interest that outweighs the offence of not awaiting the correct scrutiny procedures. However, more than once in my time as Minister, I have simply refused to agree to something, which has meant a delay in implementing a number of quite significant EU measures. In this case, we were talking about the latest annual report in a series of annual reports. This has no policy impact—it simply reports what had happened during 2014. I will be straight with my hon. Friend: in those circumstances, and knowing that the Committee only had its first meeting on 21 July, the day after the Foreign Affairs Council, and that it was not likely to meet again until after the summer recess, I decided that it would not be in the United Kingdom’s interests to block the publication of an annual report, when, as we have shown, it would be perfectly possible to have a debate at a future time. No policy has been authorised as a consequence of that decision, because the report was purely retrospective.

I confess that in response to my hon. Friend’s second question, I am slightly at a loss because the copy of the report that I have does not go up to page 337, but only goes up to page 301. There were no conclusions to the report.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I was moving on to page 337 of the package, which relates to the Council’s conclusions on the common security and defence policy, following the Foreign Affairs Council of 18 May. I just wanted to check that those conclusions were agreed by Her Majesty’s Government.

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[Mr Lidington]

I will check the reference, and, if I may, I will try to respond to that in my winding-up remarks at the end of the debate.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am grateful. Perhaps the Minister may be able to find inspiration while I am asking the next question. If the Government did agree to those conclusions, I would bring to his attention paragraph 1 of the conclusions of the Council. As I understand it, Council conclusions are normally agreed by all members of the Council, so it would be odd, unless there was a specific reservation, if the Government had not agreed paragraph 1. It states:

“This calls for a stronger Europe, with a stronger and more effective Common Security and Defence Policy”.

I thought that it was the policy of Her Majesty’s Government to repatriate powers from the European Union, whereas the Foreign Affairs Council on 18 May 2015, in the opening paragraph of its conclusion, calls for more powers for the European Union. If the Government agreed to that, can the Minister explain why they did so?

[Mr Lidington]

The straight answer is that yes, we did agree to any conclusions that require unanimity and, if I may say so, I think that the slip that my hon. Friend is making is to equate support for

“a stronger and more effective Common Security and Defence Policy”

with support for a stronger role for EU institutions in constraining and directing the activities of member states. What we are talking about here are security and defence policies agreed in common, unanimously, by the free decision of 28 national Governments working together, because we have seen in cases such as the Iran nuclear programme, or action in the western Balkans, that we are able to achieve more if we are working together than if even one or two of the big member states try to act on their own.

I would argue that we should be confident and ambitious about the influence that the United Kingdom can and does have on the shaping and framing of those policies. We are one of a handful of EU member states that have a history of global engagement and a worldwide diplomatic network, which is delivering the 0.7% UN target on international development. In terms of the trust fund of Turkey, for example, that enables us to put our money and our commitment on the table, and lead the actions of others at European level.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am grateful for the further opportunity to discuss this. The Minister thinks that I have misconstrued the conclusions, but paragraph 2 of the Council conclusions goes on to say that the EU and member states

“are assuming increased responsibilities to act as a security provider”.

When it refers to the EU, that must refer to the institutions of the European Union and must refer back to the second sentence of paragraph 1. It is giving more power to the European Union institutions; it says it in the document.

[Mr Lidington]

But in this context, that is the European Union institutions acting on the basis of a unanimously agreed decision by the Governments of the member states meeting in the Council. If there is not unanimity, there is no EU foreign policy position and, therefore, no EU action.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The Minister wishes to use words in a way that does not bear the normal meaning of them. Perhaps he will be able to help me in the usage of some words by the writers of the document, where the words do not have any normal meaning. Could he explain paragraph 4 of the document and tell us what the following means?

“The aim is to increase synergies in the EU response to priority horizontal issues”.

What are priority horizontal issues?

[Mr Lidington]

I have some sympathy with my hon. Friend’s dislike of what I sometimes refer to as diplo-babble. I have to confess that one finds this in national policy documents, I dread to say, as well as in European ones from time to time. I think he is being slightly unfair because he is quoting that phrase out of the context in which it is set. The context is the Council committing itself

“to further strengthen the links between external and internal security.”

The next sentence goes on to define priority horizontal issues

“such as terrorism, organised crime, foreign fighters, smuggling and trafficking in human beings, irregular migration, hybrid threats, border management, energy security and cyber security”.

The meaning behind that convoluted bit of jargon is that EU countries working together need to do more to co-ordinate. To take one example, that means co-ordinating the work that we do to strengthen our domestic arrangements to tackle terrorism with the external work that we do through diplomatic and other means.

I believe it is right, for example, that European countries, working through EU justice and home affairs provisions, should provide a system whereby we all have access to records of passenger names of people travelling within the EU or from EU airports to other flights. There is a natural synergy between that and working with countries, such as Turkey, that are used as transit routes by terrorists and organised criminals; just as there is a synergy with EU work to improve governance, public order and the rule of law in the countries of the western Balkans, which are very much prey to organised crime in all its forms, and which need and value external support from elsewhere in Europe to buttress their attempts to build the rule of law in their countries.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am grateful to the Minister for his translation of diplo-babble, but there are more examples, such as

“hybrid strategies and operations by state and non-state actors”.

I wonder who is doing the acting.

Paragraph 8 reports:

“Therefore, defence issues should also be considered in coherence”—

for the benefit of Hansard, I make clear that that is two words, “in” and “coherence”, rather than “incoherence”, although one might think the alternative is better—

“with other relevant EU policies and sectors, and vice versa”.

This is an extraordinarily unclear document, except when it is clear and the Government say that it is not.

In the context of my first question on the document, I will bring the Minister to paragraph 16. Could he explain what is meant by the following?

“The establishment of a EU facility linking closer peace, security and development in the framework of one or more existing EU instruments; and a dedicated instrument to this effect, in view of the mid-term review of the multiannual financial framework 2014-2020”.

Does that mean more powers to EU institutions?

[Mr Lidington]

No, it does not, is the straight answer. Because I do not have direct ministerial responsibility for Africa, I offer to write to my hon. Friend with further details once I have talked to the Minister for Africa. However, my reading of this section of paragraph 16 is that it is saying that an EU facility should be established to try to drive forward internal peace, security and development in African countries. It seems that those three objectives fit naturally together. An African country that is more secure is likely to be able to offer greater economic opportunities to its people, more economic growth and more employment, which in turn will reduce the attractiveness of crime, terrorism and so on.

The following line, which refers to the

“mid-term review of the multiannual financial framework”,

is saying that this new facility could be set up within the context of the mid-term review, meaning that funds that are currently spent in one particular way could be reallocated through the creation of the new programme. I can give my hon. Friend and the Committee a firm assurance that the unanimity lock remains on the ceilings that were negotiated by the Prime Minister in 2013. The mid-term review may come up with interesting ideas about how to reorganise expenditure programmes, but unless the Government changed their mind, which they have no intention of doing, those seven-year MFF ceilings remain in place.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that answer. If he does write to me, might he look at the opening part of paragraph 16? In that context, does

“the Joint Communication on ‘Capacity building in support of security and development – Enabling partners to prevent and manage crises’”

refer to the development of EU competence, of which I would always urge him to be cautious?

Paragraph 17j states that the Council

“Welcomes the clarification and understanding achieved regarding the possible use of Article 44 TEU”.

Will he explain what that possible use is? Although the document welcomes the clarification, it does not explain it.

[Mr Lidington]

It is part of the Lisbon treaty and permits the Council to entrust the conduct of a CSDP mission to a willing group of member states smaller than the entire EU membership, allowing those without an interest in the mission to give it their political blessing without actually having to participate. Under article 44, a coalition of the willing could therefore take on a mission under the EU banner with the support of EU infrastructure and spending programmes. Italy and a number of southern member states are particularly keen on that at the moment because they are talking about a further CSDP mission in the Mediterranean.

The article has the potential to be useful because it would provide a way to reflect the reality that it is inevitable in a diverse EU membership that member states have different levels of interest in particular crises. It will be no shock to the Committee if I say that Malta is concerned about what is happening in Libya and that Lithuania is concerned about the situation vis-à-vis Russia and Ukraine. Article 44 will add value only if it has some different rules that allow for greater flexibility of action. By definition, the article is likely to be used when not all member states want to be fully engaged in a mission and therefore use of the article should not come with an automatic expectation of common funding from member states that have chosen not to participate. Those who want to take part should pay for it.

We can delegate a mission to a particular group of member states, but we are very reluctant to support the idea of delegating responsibility for that mission’s conduct, even if it is being conducted by only a minority of willing member states. In any use of article 44, we would want to insist that standards of planning, organisation, governance and spending oversight in the conduct of a mission remained just as high if it took place under article 44 as it would for any other EU mission.

[Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con)]

The Minister’s responses have raised a question in my mind about what the Government’s policy actually is; I hope he does not mind if I ask him about that in the context of this motion. Is the Government’s policy with regard to the EU to withdraw powers wherever possible in line with the doctrine of subsidiarity? Is it never to remit any further powers to the European Union? Is it to contemplate remitting powers to institutions of the EU where policy, and in particular, British policy goals are served by such a remission of power? Or is it to remit such powers if—and only if—such remission is purely temporary? I would be very grateful if the Minister clarified the policy.

[Mr Lidington]

To a large extent, one would need to look at the detail of the subject area being addressed. On my hon. Friend’s first question, it is certainly the Government’s position that in all areas of EU activity, the cardinal principle ought to be “Europe where necessary, national where possible”, and that action should be taken at a European level where we believe that will give genuine value added. We therefore want to see subsidiarity applied rigorously in areas of activity that fall within EU competence under the treaties.

When it comes to new powers, as my hon. Friend will know, we set out very significant checks in the European Union Act 2011 in the form of requirements for parliamentary agreement, primary legislation and in many cases, a referendum in this country before this or any future British Government could agree to the transfer of additional competences to the EU by way of treaty amendment or a new treaty.

I think there is certainly deep scepticism on the Government’s part towards the idea that EU competences need to be expanded. The Lisbon treaty already gives very significant competences to the EU. It is dangerous in politics ever to say “never”, and we do not know what the world will look like in five, 10 or 25 years’ time, but I think it is good that we have those checks in place on the statute book to ensure that if any future Government were tempted to agree to an expansion of EU competences, they could do so only with the full support of Parliament, and in most cases, of the British public in a referendum.

When it comes to the additional exercise of powers within an existing competence—for example, with the proposal for a new justice and home affairs measure—we will, in that particular case, make a judgment, based on our assessment of the national interest, as to whether it is in our interest to participate or not participate in that measure. Where the matter falls within the EU’s treaty competence already and where we do not have the opt-out—for example, single-market matters—part of our negotiating approach would be to press for the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality to be observed fully.

Motion made, and Question proposed,

That the Committee takes note of European Union Document No. 11083/15, Main aspects and basic choices of the CFSP (part II, point E, paragraph 25 of the Interinstitutional Agreement of 2 December 2013)—2014: Draft Annual Report from the High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy to the European Parliament; and welcomes the constructive coordination between EU Member States and Institutions to achieve a range of positive foreign policy outcomes.— (Mr Lidington.)

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[Mr Lidington]

I am grateful to both the hon. Member for North West Durham and my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset for their contributions. The hon. Lady was right that the document we are debating contains no new policy. It is purely a retrospective report on what happened or what was done during 2014. I say to my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset that I do not claim—and never have claimed—that everything about the EU is perfect, certainly not the way it does external policy. I probably know that better than any other member of the Committee after the last five and three quarter years. However, as I said earlier, I believe that in today’s world the reality is that, in order to protect our own citizens and advance the interests of our country, we need to work with others.

I remember my noble Friend Lord Hague saying to me after one extremely long Foreign Affairs Council when he was Foreign Secretary that, while it was utterly frustrating and infuriating to try to get 28 different countries all to sign up to a common package of sanctions against a third country, the effort was worth while, because, when that could be achieved, it was more effective than Britain acting on its own or even than Britain, France and Germany acting together. It closed down so many actual or potential loopholes for sanctions busting, and there was a greater political and economic effect on the country being targeted than if only a small group of the willing had taken action.

The safeguards that we have with regard to the exercise of the EU’s foreign and security policy responsibilities are, first, that it is laid down in the treaties that, for a foreign policy position to be adopted, all member states have to be in agreement. Every country, including the United Kingdom, has a veto. Not only that, but the European Court cannot second-guess policy positions. It has a limited right to look at the implementation of unanimously agreed decisions, for example on sanctions. An individual who is subject to EU sanctions can go to the European Court and argue that the sanction was imposed improperly or on the basis of false evidence, or for whatever other reason. However, the Court cannot intervene in the making of a foreign policy position.

In addition, the European Union Act 2011 provides explicitly for a referendum to be held in this country were any future British Government to be tempted to agree to move from unanimity towards majority voting for common foreign and security policy or common security and defence policy.

I also say to my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset that yes, we do need to be vigilant about attempts to stretch the envelope over competence. For example, since 2010 I have instructed my officials to be very active in resisting what we believe to be unwarranted attempts by the Commission to supplant the role of member states or the rotating presidency in representing the EU position in international organisations. That is a battle that I am sure will continue.

Also, when considering vetoing a particular measure, or at least delaying agreement to it—what my hon. Friend asks me to do more frequently—I consider what the impact of such a veto or delay would be. Sometimes, when the final unclassified version of a document has regrettably, for whatever reason, been produced late in the process by Brussels, I am faced with the decision of whether to override scrutiny in order to allow agreement, or to do as he asks and block agreement pending scrutiny. Sometimes that might mean deciding whether to put at risk the continuation of an EU peacekeeping or training mission in a country where the operation of that mission is important to the United Kingdom’s interests.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

Of course I accept that there are urgent occasions, particularly in relation to sanctions, when it is right to override scrutiny, because giving us time to scrutinise sanctions would also give the person who is supposed to be caught by them time to change his affairs. This document, however, was a report on what happened in 2014, so it was in no sense urgent that it be agreed in July; it could easily have waited until proper scrutiny had taken place. It seems to me, therefore, that the urgency argument really does not apply in this case.

[Mr Lidington]

In this case, as I described earlier, had we blocked agreement on 20 July, it would have been in the knowledge that we could not return to it until scrutiny processes had been completed, which would have taken us well into the autumn, given that Parliament sat for only two weeks in September, and I think the Committee met only once in those two weeks. A debate could probably not have taken place until the second half of October at the earliest.

We had, as we always have, many political objectives at stake during a Foreign Affairs Council meeting. The Foreign Secretary and I took the view that to hold up agreement on this would simply be an unwelcome use of negotiating capital that we wanted to keep for substantive foreign policy issues where getting others to agree to the British position was challenging but important for our diplomatic interests. My hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset is perfectly entitled to say that we misjudged that and that we should have been more rigorous in defending parliamentary scrutiny, but that was the way in which my right hon. Friend and I approached it.

In conclusion, it remains the case, in my view, that we can achieve important objectives of this country by working co-operatively with our nearest neighbours and partners. Furthermore, the diplomatic weight that the United Kingdom brings to the European table is significant. We can and do have a major influence on shaping what later become common European policies. In that sense, we can use the European arrangements to amplify our own diplomatic reach and punching power. Indeed, people from the United States often tell British officials and Ministers that they want us to get involved in bringing other Europeans to the table. In fact, the Prime Minister was very active in ensuring that the United States and European Union positions on Russia sanctions have been very closely aligned throughout the Ukraine crisis.

Although these institutional arrangements are not perfect—I am not going to claim that we will win every single battle—I believe that we can use our power and influence effectively to shape European policy positions in a way that brings tangible benefits to the security and prosperity of the people of the United Kingdom. On that basis, I commend the Government’s motion to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Foreign Affairs Council and General Affairs Council

David Lidington Excerpts

Wednesday 27th January 2016 Written Statements

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs attended the Foreign Affairs Council and I attended the General Affairs Council on 18 January. The Foreign Affairs Council was chaired by the High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Federica Mogherini, and the General Affairs Council was chaired by the Dutch presidency. The meetings were held in Brussels.

Foreign Affairs Council

A provisional report of the meeting and conclusions adopted can be found at: http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/meetings/fac/2016/01/18/.

In her introductory remarks Ms Mogherini welcomed the progress that had been made on implementation of the Iranian nuclear deal and updated Ministers on the political situation in Venezuela. During the morning sessions, Ministers discussed Syria—including the London conference—and Iraq. The Jordanian Foreign Minister joined Ministers for lunch. The afternoon concluded with discussions on Ukraine and the middle east peace process.

Syria and recent developments in the region

Ms Mogherini updated Ministers on the political process in Syria, highlighting recent tensions between Saudi Arabia and Iran. The Foreign Secretary welcomed the Riyadh conference of the Syrian opposition, and underlined the need for confidence-building measures in parallel with the UN-led talks. All member states welcomed the political progress made in the final months of 2015 but cautioned that the process was fragile. Ministers also discussed preparations for the Syria conference taking place in London on 4 February. The conference has three main objectives: to increase available funding to the most affected countries, to address the long-term economic needs of refugees in the region, and increase the protection of civilians. The Foreign Secretary underlined the need to do more for the vulnerable and displaced inside Syria and the millions of Syrian refugees in neighbouring countries.

Iraq

Ministers exchanged views on Iraq following the adoption of conclusions at the December 2015 Foreign Affairs Council. Ms Mogherini focused on how the EU could support the domestic reform agenda and national reconciliation. The Foreign Secretary noted the recent military successes against Daesh in Sinjar and Ramadi, which had relieved some of the pressure on the Iraqi Government.

Lunch with Jordanian Foreign Minister

Over lunch, Ministers exchanged views with the Jordanian Foreign Minister, Mr Nasser Judeh, on foreign policy challenges in the region. They looked ahead to the London Syria conference. Ms Mogherini expressed support to Jordan in the fight against Daesh and counter radicalisation.

Ukraine

Ms. Mogherini opened the discussion by underlining progress made by the Government of Ukraine on their reform programme under very difficult circumstances. She stressed the need for the EU and member states to continue to support Ukraine. Ministers exchanged views on how this could best be achieved.

Middle east peace process Council conclusions

Following discussion, the Council approved conclusions on the middle east peace process. Ministers agreed without discussion a number of measures:

The Council adopted conclusions on Libya.

The Council adopted a regulation concerning restrictive measures in view of the situation in Libya.

The Council adopted the EU priorities for co-operation with the Council of Europe in 2016-2017.

The Council set a financial reference amount of EUR 14 850 000 to cover the expenditure related to the EU’s CSDP mission in Mali (EUCAP) Sahel Mali between 15 January 2016 and 14 January 2017.

The Council adopted a decision supporting the biological and toxin weapons convention (BTWC).

The Council concluded that all the conditions have been met for EUNAVFOR MED Operation Sophia to implement on the High Seas UN Security Council Resolution 2240.

General Affairs Council

The General Affairs Council (GAC) on 18 January 2016 focused on the presidency work programme and preparation of the European Council on 18 and 19 February 2016.

A provisional report of the meeting and conclusions adopted can be found at:

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/meetings/gac/2016/01/18/.

Presidency Work programme

The Dutch presidency commenced on 1 January. The Dutch Foreign Minister, Bert Koenders, set out the presidency’s programme and priorities for the current semester, and referred to his letter on improving the role of the GAC highlighting three priorities: open and inclusive dialogue at the multiannual financial framework high-level conference on 28 January; continued work on rule of law; and implementation of the inter-institutional agreement, transparency and better governance.

The Dutch programme is based on the presidency Trio programme, developed jointly with Slovakia and Malta, but focuses on four main themes: jobs and growth; labour mobility; the eurozone; and a union of freedom, justice and security.

I welcomed the presidency’s priorities, particularly those based on supporting job creation and economic growth. I also highlighted the importance of continuity of Trio programmes and looked forward to working with Estonia and Bulgaria—the UK’s Trio partners—and the current Trio to deliver real results on competitiveness, the internal market, investment, and entrenching the EU’s position at the heart of global trade.

Preparation of the February European Council

The GAC prepared the agenda for the 18 and 19 February European Council, which the Prime Minister will attend. The draft February European Council agenda covers: the UK’s EU renegotiation; migration, and economic issues.

On the UK’s EU renegotiation, I reiterated the Prime Minister’s message that what mattered more than the timing of a deal was getting the substance right.

On migration, I highlighted the UK’s role in efforts to tackle the migration crisis through chairing the upcoming Syria conference in London; chairing the Khartoum process; supporting the action plans from the Valletta and Turkey summits; supporting the Turkey Refugee Fund; and providing technical assistance to EU agencies.

[HCWS495]

Action Plan on Human Rights and Democracy

David Lidington Excerpts

Monday 25th January 2016 General Committees

[The Chair]

I call the Minister to make an opening statement. I remind the Committee that interventions are not allowed during the statement.

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

It is always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell.

The European Scrutiny Committee has described the EU action plan as “legally and politically important”, and I agree. I want to address why and how this area of EU external policy is of vital interest to the United Kingdom and our national interest and why EU action in this area can enhance our ability to tackle the real foreign policy problems confronting us.

In its five chapters and 34 actions, the action plan sets out practical steps to be taken primarily by the European External Action Service, the European Commission, the European Council and member states to implement the EU’s commitment to promote and protect human rights and democratic values. As Members will have seen, the clear intention behind the action plan is to describe a set of overarching principles and high-level actions that should inform European Union activity when it comes to particular issues or particular third countries with which the EU is dealing. To avoid any misunderstanding, I stress that we are talking about the European Union’s relationship with third countries and not about EU member states and their own human rights legislation.

The range of challenges addressed in the action plan is enormous and consistent with the principle that human rights are universal and indivisible. Many of the issues set out in the action plan align closely with interests that the Government have identified as United Kingdom priorities, such as women’s rights and the prevention of sexual violence; freedom of religion or belief; freedom of expression; combating torture; abolition of the death penalty; strengthening electoral processes; and ensuring that civil society organisations can operate free from threats or intimation.

Tackling those issues is an everyday task for our national diplomatic network. Sometimes we will want a national profile on a human rights problem. Our recently relaunched Magna Carta fund for human rights and democracy aims to show that the UK is at the forefront of the argument that human rights represent a key part of the rules-based international system and that we match our political commitment with a practical response to real world problems. Internationally, however, winning the argument is about building consensus—for example, by putting the Prime Minister’s “golden thread” of democracy and good governance at the heart of the United Nations’ sustainable development goals. In multilateral discussions of that kind, the EU action plan is an essential point of reference for the international community. It is one of those documents to which countries around the world turn.

When 28 member states together speak out against violations and abuses of human rights, other countries around the world and other international gatherings take note. Important examples include recent statements on executions in Saudi Arabia which made clear the EU’s strong opposition to the use of the death penalty in all circumstances, called on the Saudi authorities to promote reconciliation between the different communities in the kingdom, and called on all to show restraint and responsibility. Another example is the EU’s statements on Azerbaijan in the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe. Those statements expressed concern about the continued deterioration of the human rights situation there, and because they were EU statements on behalf of all 28 member states, they had more impact than a set of statements by individual countries would have had. In Turkey, the EU has condemned attempts to restrict press freedom and internet access and content. Freedom of expression is explicitly set out in the Lisbon treaty as a requirement for any country that aspires to join the EU. We welcome the work that the EU is doing to support reforms in Turkey through its pre-accession funding programmes.

The EU Special Representative for Human Rights, Stavros Lambrinidis, has done much to enhance the visibility of EU human rights policy. As members of the Committee will be aware, the FCO recently deposited an explanatory memorandum on the proposed budget for the EU special representative, on which we had negotiated rigorously to secure an acceptable outcome. Mr Lambrinidis has engaged extensively with countries that face serious human rights challenges and with countries that are influential partners in the United Nations and other multilateral organisations. In 2015, he led EU delegations in human rights dialogues with Brazil, Burma, Mexico, and the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, as well as the EU’s first meeting with Cuba on human rights. His visits to other countries included China, where he expressed the EU’s concerns on a range of issues, as well as our readiness to continue working with China to promote adherence to international human rights obligations. The UK’s own dialogue with China on human rights informed the European Union’s agreed approach—a clear example of how the EU action plan can add value to our own human rights work.

The EU’s engagement is not confined to high-level dialogues and consultations, of which there were 37 in 2014. In many countries, European Union delegations and the embassies of member states work closely together to support the victims of abuses and violations, and individuals under pressure from the authorities and from non-state actors. EU co-ordination through joint case lists ensures consistent messaging, and co-ordination in trial monitoring highlights international interest in individual cases. Although our own diplomatic network endeavours to attend criminal trials of human rights activists, co-ordination within the EU helps to ensure that our views are always represented even if our diplomats cannot be there in person, and it provides additional diplomatic weight.

In addition, in countries where intervention comes with a cost to individual bilateral relationships, being part of an EU bloc lessens the bilateral risk to all individual EU members. In the Occupied Palestinian Territories, the EU organises visits for member states to sites of concern, such as the Cremisan valley and the site of the Duma arson attack. Such visits help draw attention to EU concerns about illegal settlement construction, demolitions and settler violence. The EU also co-ordinates engagement with countries on particular human rights issues. For example, it has systematically raised freedom of religion or belief with many partners at different levels of political dialogue, including in human rights dialogues and consultations. At the United Nations, being part of the EU increases the UK’s lobbying power on matters such as our call for a global moratorium on the death penalty, on which there will be a vote in December this year.

The EU also enables us to benefit from the key principle of burden sharing. At the United Nations, for example, Belgium currently leads within the EU in negotiations on a sensitive resolution on counter-terrorism and human rights. Burden sharing also enables us to support EU partners who have specialised in specific areas. For example, some EU member states are able to provide enhanced practical support to human rights defenders because their domestic legislation allows them greater flexibility on matters such as visas.

In addition to global advocacy and dialogue, an important part of the action plan is the funding of programmes by the EU’s external financial instruments, notably the European instrument for democracy and human rights, which had a budget of €181 million in 2015. The new EU human rights defenders mechanism, announced in December, provides practical support such as physical protection, legal and medical support, and trial and prison monitoring, as well as support for early warning of risks and training on risk prevention. This aligns well with the UK’s pledge to challenge threats to civil society, which is part of our campaign for re-election to the United Nations Human Rights Council for the period 2017 to 2019.

As my hon. Friend the Member for South Derbyshire said, an ambitious action plan and large-scale programmes require close monitoring and evaluation. Last year’s report by the European Court of Auditors on EU support for the fight against torture and the abolition of the death penalty provided a broadly positive assessment; however, the report also included some recommendations, the first of which was the need to target resources better. It is therefore important that we continue to engage closely with the EU funding process across all areas of the action plan, to ensure that spending is effective and aligned with UK’s objectives.

I welcome the fact that this action plan will be subjected to a mid-term review in 2017, which will coincide with the mid-term review of the external financing instruments. That will give us the chance to make sure that the lessons from the European Court of Auditors’ reports and other scrutiny exercises have been learned and applied. Integrating a human rights perspective across the EU’s external action is the best way to ensure that the EU maximises its influences on such issues and considers human rights alongside other aspects of external policy. That is after all what we do at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. In that sense, the action plan complements and amplifies the human rights work that we in the UK already undertake on a national basis.

[The Chair]

We now have until 5.36 pm for questions to the Minister. I remind Members that questions should be brief. It is open to a Member, subject to the discretion of the Chair, to ask related supplementary questions.

[Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)]

As this is my first outing in one of the European Committees, Mr Rosindell, I hope that the Minister will handle me gently.

I understand that the action plan is about third countries and not our internal EU partners. None of us would have any problems in principle with the action plan, which the Minister described as a document of principles, high-level actions and practical steps. That is where I had a problem when reading through the document, because I think that I got more about what the practical steps are and what is going on from the Minister in a 10-minute speech than I did from two hours of reading that document. When I look at an action plan, I expect high-level actions, milestones, timescales, costs and some numbers detailing how many and by when. I did not see any such reference in this document. When I was a director of education, I had three banned words from action plans—ongoing, developing and progressing, because they mean nothing. In terms of timescales, 75% to 80% of the document before the Committee is ongoing. I had a problem with that.

The Minister referred to the Court of Auditors, so I am assuming that underneath this high-level document are other documents that will tell me exactly how many, by when, who is responsible and the costs, as well as where we are, where we want to get to and how we will get there. I think fellow Committee members were also looking for those answers. Is there a series of documents beneath this high-level document that will give me those specific, practical answers?

We are working with two different drafts, and my first question relates to objective no. 4 of the table in my version of the new action plan. I appreciate that it relates to third parties and not to our EU partners, but it does feel a little like, “Do as I say, not as I do.” Objective 4.b refers to the need to

“Monitor at bilateral and multilateral level the compliance by partner countries of their international obligations in terms of access to justice and fair trial, including legal aid”.

How does that sit with our Government’s recent action to cut back access to justice and legal aid?

My second question is about item no. 12, “Cultivating an environment of non-discrimination.” Objective 12.a is to:

“Develop an ‘EU Handbook on Anti-discrimination’ in third countries, outlining tools for anti-discrimination measures”.

Well, that is going to do it for the Ugandan anti-homosexual laws—that is going to make it happen. I was expecting something more than just a handbook. Who is going to do this? The EEAS, the Commission and the Council. It is a handbook, so surely they have some idea who is going to put it together.

My last point concerns no. 25, “Counter-terrorism”, which deals with

“how to prevent radicalisation and extremist violence among young people in third countries…in the field.”

I am curious about how that will relate to our Prevent strategy.

Those are my three observations. Overall, I think that the strategy is moving in the right direction, but I have concerns about who will monitor it, how it will be monitored and how we will judge whether it is effective and gives value for money. It will be difficult to judge whether the strategy is successful if we have no idea where we started, where we intend to be or what the milestones are along the way. Presumably, those things are in the low-level documents that the Minister is going to tell me about now.

[Mr Lidington]

I welcome the hon. Member for North West Durham to her new responsibilities. We miss her predecessor, but during her time in the House she has shown herself to be interested in and committed to European issues. I am sure that we will debate European matters across the Committee and across the Chamber on many enjoyable occasions. I will try to answer her questions briefly.

As I said in my opening comments, the plan is deliberately intended as a high-level statement of objectives and principles that should inform the whole range of external policy activity that the EU and its institutions undertake. Other documents, most obviously the annual reports on the EU’s human rights work, are worth looking at. The External Action Service will report on missions to particular countries and it will sometimes report to the European Parliament on the EU’s interaction with a specific third country. In those reports, hon. Members will see human rights issues being raised in accordance with the principles set out in the action plan. There are quite a lot of different documents, such as the EU’s human rights guidelines and a recently adopted EU framework policy on transitional justice, which add up to a more complete picture.

On the question of who will monitor this work, the EU institutions and the representatives of member states in Brussels—the permanent representations—have an important role in trying to ensure best value for money at all times. The European Court of Auditors plays a crucial role in monitoring that, as it does every other aspect of EU expenditure.

When I visited the Court of Auditors late last year, I was told that I was the first British Minister they could remember ever visiting the place, which I thought was rather a pity. What impressed me was that the Court of Auditors had a very clear objective to shift its focus from measuring inputs into particular programmes to looking at outcomes and focusing much more on whether the declared objectives of a particular EU programme have been achieved, rather than on how much money might be going into something and whether it had been spent on this particular line rather than that particular line.

I mentioned in my opening comments the European instrument for democracy and human rights as one of the external funding instruments. Precisely because human rights work is meant to be mainstreamed in everything the EU does in terms of its foreign policy, it is not possible to abstract a dedicated budget for human rights work alone. For example, what the EU does in relation to Saudi Arabia or Iran will include a human rights element, but it will include other things as well. The pre-accession funding programmes that are available to Turkey and to western Balkans countries that are moving towards membership, and some of the partnership funds to some of the eastern European countries from the former Soviet Union, will also have a human rights element as we try to encourage those countries to build functioning democracies and entrench the rule of law and human rights in their political culture.

I turn briefly to the three specific items that the hon. Lady raised. In fairness, even with the recent restrictions on legal aid, the United Kingdom’s legal aid system remains one of the most generous anywhere in Europe or the democratic world. What the EU is trying to focus on here is the fact that there are too many countries in which it is impossible for defendants to have access to an independent lawyer at all, and where everything that we take for granted in terms of such statutes as the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 or the rules of procedure in court are simply not available in the way that we would understand them. As part of the consular casework that I have dealt with, I have had British citizens, through their families, complaining that they have sometimes not had any opportunity to understand the charges being brought against them in court. That is the sort of issue that this policy is designed to address.

When it comes to anti-discrimination work, the reality is that such work has to proceed through persuasion, good practice and peer group pressure within international organisations. If, for example, we look at the way in which the United Kingdom Government first drove forward preventing sexual violence from being used as a weapon of war, placed that on the international agenda and then used our membership of the EU and of the UN to get other countries to take this issue up and make it a priority, that demonstrates one particular way in which this approach can work. We certainly see the EU’s action plan as complementing our own bilateral efforts to increase women’s political participation around the world, from the middle east to north Africa to work with indigenous groups in Latin America.

On the question of counter-terrorism, again we see the EU action plan work complementing what we seek to do under Prevent and other United Kingdom programmes. There are many countries around the world that face a genuine threat from terrorism but that also do not observe the standards in terms of human rights and due process that we would expect from our own police and judicial systems, so part of what we do bilaterally and part of what we do through EU activity is to have a dialogue with those countries and discuss how it is possible to combine effective action against terrorism with respect for the rule of law and for human rights. That is an issue that Members from all parties in the House have raised in the context of Colombia in debates in this House. It is an issue that we raise in our dialogue with Russian authorities, who face a genuine terrorist threat in the north Caucasus but who tackle it in a somewhat different way from how we might tackle terrorism here.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

I apologise for being late to the Committee, Mr Rosindell. The Minister is well up on how the EU works; I know that he is an expert on all this, so it is good to hear him today. If I have missed this point, please tell me. I am interested, as was our European Scrutiny Committee, in whether he really feels that this scheme is absolutely the right way to spend the money that will be spent on it. Is he confident that that money will be well spent? That is one important issue. Secondly, within all the bodies in the various parts of the European Union that have drawn up the action plan, who actually makes the final decision that a certain amount of money will be spent on a certain part of the overall strategy?

[Mr Lidington]

To take the second question first, that will depend in part on which spending programme we are talking about, because the decision-making procedures may vary a bit accordingly. The senior-level people in the EEAS and the Commission would have responsibility in the first place for drawing up proposals and allocating funding from the budget agreed by member states under the various headings of the European Union annual budget and multi-annual financial framework. Those positions by the institutions are subject to oversight by the European Union Political and Security Committee ambassadors in Brussels, and ultimately by Ministers in the Foreign Affairs Council and the European Council.

Decisions on foreign policy are taken by unanimity, as the hon. Lady knows, so every member state has a veto, but what would happen is that a paper might be brought forward by the High Representative on foreign policy that would describe the European Union’s external actions in relation to a third country, let us say for the sake of example Pakistan. There would probably be a human rights element to that, and there would be an indication of the spending that would be involved to fund the programme. Then the member states could agree or disagree. There would be a process of negotiation, and then the final plan would be signed off.

Clearly, subsequent monitoring and auditing will be important. To answer the hon. Lady’s first question, I am always looking for ways to extract better value for money; that applies as much to UK domestic spending as to EU spending. It is a duty on any Minister in any Government. There are always improvements that can be made. Often, when I have had to deal with auditors’ reports on some of the common security and defence policy missions, I have said that we need to bring pressure to bear to deal with the shortcomings revealed by the auditor’s report. I think that the European Court of Auditors, at its best, acts in the same way as the National Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee here. That is the principle—we should always be looking for ways to improve matters—but by and large, I think that this area of EU activity amplifies the human rights work that the UK would be trying to do bilaterally.

[Heather Wheeler]

If we are almost drawing to a close, I ask the Minister again whether, having given us all those answers, he is not as convinced as the European Scrutiny Committee that the measures ought to have a debate in the full Chamber, as there are so many areas in it of great interest across the House.

[Mr Lidington]

If my hon. Friend looks at the track record of the current Government and their predecessor coalition Government, she will see that many more debates on documents referred by the European Scrutiny Committee have been held on the Floor of the House than was the case under predecessor Governments. It is always a difficult balance for the Government to strike in terms of the allocation of parliamentary time and we feel that we are granting a fair share of the Committee’s requests for debates on the Floor of the House. I can remember a previous Chair of the European Scrutiny Committee saying to me that he could remember being told informally by the Whips in the life of a previous Government that he could have two Floor debates a year and that he should decide which two he wanted out of the many documents that came through his Committee. We have had a lot more than two.

Any Member of the House of Commons is entitled to attend and speak at the European Committees. I take my hon. Friend’s point that a lot of Members, one would think, might be interested in human rights questions, especially given the number of lobbying campaigns to which we are all subjected by different pressure groups on behalf of human rights defenders of various countries, but our colleagues do not turn up in those numbers. The opportunity is there for hon. Members to take part if they wish to avail themselves of it.

[Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con)]

I would like to press my right hon. Friend on one issue. The debate is obviously not just about human rights but strays into the whole area of EU competence. I would like to concentrate on value for money. I am clear from what he said about who determines how much money the EU wants and the mechanism by which the money is allocated. Would he say a little bit more about the audit trail? Exactly how is the money audited, by whom and when, to ensure that we, in this House, are able to trace where our taxpayers’ money has gone, what it has been used for and whether we might have been able to use it better ourselves were we not encumbered by this excessive bureaucratic EU cost?

[Mr Lidington]

Of course we will account, as the second biggest net contributor to the EU, for roughly 15% pro rata of spending on every EU programme. The judgment that the Government have to make—and that all voters will have to make at the forthcoming referendum—is, among other things, whether it is better and more greatly to our advantage in national terms to have some activities carried out collectively at a European level, rather than trying to do that bilaterally. A related question is whether, in the event of the United Kingdom leaving the EU, we would get all of that contribution back or whether, as with Norway and Switzerland, a considerable proportion would still need to be paid to the EU budget in the course of a subsequent relationship.

I am never satisfied with value for money. From the various Court of Auditors reports that I have looked at, more could and should be done at the EU level. I do not think that the EU institutions have adopted the culture that has been forced on this country and on many other EU member states of having to cut the coat to fit the cloth and having to engage in some painful reprioritisation as a consequence of dealing with limited resources.

The procedural reality is that the funds are subject to EU internal audit processes, which are monitored by the EU Court of Auditors. It is up to the Court of Auditors, as with the National Audit Office here, to decide where it wants to focus its attention. The mid-term review of the action plan to assess progress will take place next year. That will give us the opportunity to look more deeply into whether we have secured the value for money and the outcomes that we seek from this expenditure.

My own view is that it does provide a net benefit for the United Kingdom when we are able to speak not just as one country, or even perhaps with France and Germany as three significant European countries, but when we are able to work effectively as a bloc of 28. The reality is that, precisely because of the United Kingdom’s diplomatic weight and strength and because we have a global diplomatic network and a global reach to our diplomacy, we, like France, are able to exercise a disproportionate influence upon how EU-level foreign policy positions, including on human rights, are developed. In that sense, we get benefit where we are prepared to be active and where we fight hard to try to ensure that our priorities and objectives are taken up as European priorities and objectives. It is not perfect—I completely accept that—and my right hon. Friend is absolutely correct to warn of the need to be vigilant about competence because there is always a risk of the envelope being pushed by the Brussels institutions, but on balance I think we gain from the amplification of national diplomacy by effective EU action.

[The Chair]

If no other Member wishes to contribute to the questioning of the Minister, we will now proceed to the motion itself.

Motion made, and Question put,

That the Committee takes note of unnumbered European Union Document, EU Action Plan on Human Rights and Democracy.—(Mr Lidington.)

Foreign Affairs and General Affairs Councils

David Lidington Excerpts

Thursday 14th January 2016 Written Statements

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs will attend the Foreign Affairs Council on 18 January and I will attend the General Affairs Council on 18 January. The Foreign Affairs Council will be chaired by the High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Federica Mogherini, and the General Affairs Council will be chaired by the Dutch presidency. The meetings will be held in Brussels.



Foreign Affairs Council

The expected agenda for the Foreign Affairs Council will include Syria, Iraq and Ukraine. The Jordanian Foreign Minister will attend lunch where discussion will focus on Syria, Iraq, Daesh.

Syria

Ministers will exchange views on the International Syria Support Group meeting in December and the adoption of UN Security Council resolution 2254, as well as the prospects for the talks between the Syrian parties in early 2016 and the situation on the ground.

Iraq

Following the FAC conclusions on Iraq agreed at the December FAC, Ministers will have an opportunity for an in-depth discussion of the political and security situation in Iraq. This will come at an important time, given the recent capture of the town of Ramadi from Daesh. We expect the discussion to focus on what more the EU and member states can do to support long-term security, stability and prosperity in Iraq. We will also use the opportunity to look forward to the review of the EU ISIL/Syria/lraq strategy to be completed in March.

Jordan

Ministers will be joined for lunch by the Foreign Minister of Jordan, Mr Nasser Judeh. Jordan is a key ally in the fight against Daesh, and is host to over 630,000 refugees from the Syria crisis. At the upcoming Syria donor conference the UK aims to secure increased international support to Jordan’s long-term economic resilience and stability. Ministers will discuss measures that the EU can take and the full range of regional issues.

Ukraine

Ministers are expected to exchange views on Ukraine’s reform programme and agree a set of priorities that will direct the work of the EU’s support group to Ukraine. We also expect Ministers to discuss what further support the EU can give Ukraine for the implementation of its reform programme, including on strategic communications.

General Affairs Council

The General Affairs Council (GAC) on 18 January is expected to focus on the presidency work programme and preparation of the European Council on 18 and 19 February 2016.

Presidency Work programme

The Dutch presidency commenced on 1 January. The Dutch Foreign Minister, Albert Koenders, will set out the presidency’s programme and priorities for the current semester. The programme is based on the presidency trio programme, developed jointly with Slovakia and Malta, but will focus on four main themes: jobs and growth; labour mobility; the Eurozone; and a Union of freedom, justice and security.

Preparation of the February European Council

The GAC will prepare the agenda for the 18 and 19 February European Council, which the Prime Minister will attend. The draft February European Council agenda covers: the UK’s EU renegotiation, migration, and economic issues.

[HCWS468]

Oral Answers to Questions

David Lidington Excerpts

Tuesday 12th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)]

5. What recent assessment he has made of the political situation in Ukraine and the prospects for full implementation of the Minsk agreements.

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

Ukraine is facing multiple challenges, both over domestic reform and the security situation in the east. We believe that the full implementation of the Minsk agreement remains the best chance of achieving a peaceful solution in Donbass, and we will continue to press all parties, especially Russia, to do more to meet those commitments.

[Jason McCartney]

I celebrated Ukrainian Christmas with Huddersfield and Colne Valley’s Ukrainian community over the weekend. We enjoyed holubchi, varenyky and borscht. Understandably, the community is very concerned about the situation in Ukraine. Will the Minister continue to do everything he can to implement the ceasefire, the withdrawal of heavy weapons and the return of democracy to Ukraine?

[Mr Lidington]

The need for the implementation of the ceasefire and the withdrawal of weapons were among the issues on which I pressed the Russian authorities in my meetings with First Deputy Foreign Minister Titov in Moscow just before Christmas 2015. I reiterated in my meeting yesterday with the Mayor of Lviv, Mr Sadovy, the United Kingdom’s commitment to the independent sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine.

[Conor McGinn (St Helens North) (Lab)]

Under the Minsk agreement, the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe is charged with monitoring ceasefire arrangements and weapons withdrawal. When did the Minister last meet the OSCE on this issue, and what is his assessment of its most recent report?

[Mr Lidington]

I last discussed those points directly with Michael Link, the director of the OSCE Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights, at the OSCE ministerial meeting in mid-December. The OSCE is doing a heroic job, with its monitors sometimes under direct personal threat from the continued fighting in the Donbass. It does not yet have access, to which it is entitled, to the whole of the Donbass, and we continue to press the Russians to use their influence over the separatists to allow the OSCE to carry out its mission fully.

[Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that, in any discussions the Government have with Russia in relation to Syria, Ukraine will not be used as a bargaining chip and our desire to see Russia and its arms out of Ukraine will remain undiminished?

[Mr Lidington]

I can give my hon. Friend an unqualified assurance on that point. We will continue to talk to Russia about Syria and other matters, but we are absolutely clear that there is no trade-off between any agreement over Syria and our resolute support for Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity.

[Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)]

rose—

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

I am grateful to you, Mr Speaker. As my right hon. Friend knows, corruption is a major problem in Ukraine, and one that is continuing to undermine the economic recovery of that country. What efforts are the British Government making to impress on the Ukrainian Government that they must end the practice of corruption if they want our continued support?

[Mr Lidington]

My hon. Friend puts his finger on one of the central challenges facing the Ukrainian Government and political parties in carrying out domestic reform. I do not think the House should underestimate how challenging that is in a country where corruption has been endemic for so long. We are doing what we can—not just through words, but with United Kingdom technical assistance—to enable the Ukrainians to move towards fighting corruption and establishing genuinely independent and impartial judicial and legal systems. The first projects under the good governance fund, which the Prime Minister announced last March, are now up and running in Ukraine.

Foreign Affairs Council and General Affairs Council: 14 and 15 December 2015

David Lidington Excerpts

Tuesday 5th January 2016 Written Statements

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs attended the Foreign Affairs Council on 14 December. The Foreign Affairs Council was chaired by the High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Federica Mogherini. I attended the General Affairs Council, which was chaired by the Luxembourg presidency. The meetings were held in Brussels.

Foreign Affairs Council

A provisional report of the meeting and conclusions adopted can be found at:

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/meetings/fac/2015/12/14/

In her introductory remarks the HRVP shared her assessment of Bosnia and Herzegovina following the first Stabilisation and Accession Council of 11 December. Ministers also heard an assessment of the situation in Burundi by the HRVP and the Belgium Minister of Foreign Affairs. The HRVP also touched on the successful outcome of the COP 21 conference in Paris and plans to schedule a discussion on climate diplomacy at a Foreign Affairs Council in the new year.

Eastern Partners

Ministers had an exchange on political developments in the eastern partner countries, with HRVP and Commissioner Hahn outlining the challenges regarding the eastern partners. There was a general consensus behind the principle of developing differentiated approaches in line with the review of the European neighbourhood policy. A discussion is likely on Ukraine at the January Foreign Affairs Council.

Counter-terrorism

Ministers reaffirmed the relevance of the February Council conclusions in shaping EU external counter-terrorism action. HRVP made clear that the EU’s policy framework was valid and the focus must be on prioritisation and implementation. The Foreign Secretary underlined that national security was the responsibility of member states, but actions should be co-ordinated to maximise effectiveness.

Informal lunch with Turkish Foreign Minister

Ministers had an informal exchange of views with the Turkish Foreign Minister focusing on regional issues and counter-terrorism co-operation. A high-level dialogue meeting, with the participation of the HRVP and the Commission, will be held in Ankara in January 2016.

Libya

Ministers heard a briefing by the UN SRSG Kobler on the Libyan political dialogue and the outcomes of the Rome conference. Ministers reconfirmed their support to the UN-led process, including the formation of a Government of national accord in Libya and pledging economic and security support to help stabilise the country.

Ministers agreed without discussion a number of measures:

The Council adopted conclusions on the European neighbourhood policy.

The Council adopted conclusions on Iraq.

The Council adopted conclusions on the special report entitled “EU support for the fight against torture and the abolition of the death penalty”.

The Council adopted conclusions on the 2015 annual report on the EU’s development and external assistance policies and their implementation in 2014.

The Council adopted conclusions on the special report entitled “The ACP Investment Facility: does it provide added value?”

The Council set a new financial reference amount of €43.65 million to cover expenditure related to the EU police mission in Afghanistan (EUPOL Afghanistan) from 1 January 2016 to 31 December 2016.

The Council decided to lodge an appeal against the judgement of the EU General Court annulling Council decision 2012/497/EU on the conclusion of an agreement between the EU and Morocco concerning reciprocal liberalisation measures on agricultural products, in so far as it applies to the territory of western Sahara.

General Affairs Council

A provisional report of the meeting and conclusions adopted can be found at: http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/meetings/gac/2015/12/15/

The General Affairs Council (GAC) on 15 December focused on: the inter-institutional agreement on better regulation; the 18-month programme of the Council; preparation of draft conclusions for the European Council on 17 and 18 December 2015; the enlargement and stabilisation and association process; and the European semester.

Inter-institutional agreement on better regulation (IIA)

The GAC discussed the preliminary agreed text of the inter-institutional agreement on better regulation, circulated by the Luxembourg presidency on 8 December. I welcomed the focus on impact assessments, SMEs and the “Think Small First” principle, and the consultation of national experts on delegated acts. I registered that the UK was not in a position to endorse the political agreement, due to our outstanding parliamentary scrutiny on the dossier.

18-month programme of the Council

The GAC endorsed the 18-month programme of the Council for the period from 1 January 2016 to 30 June 2017, drawn up by the Dutch, Slovak and Maltese EU presidencies.

Preparation of the December European Council

The GAC prepared the agenda for the 17 December European Council, which the Prime Minister attended. The December European Council discussed migration, the fight against terrorism, economic and monetary union, the internal market, energy union and the UK’s EU renegotiation. The European Council also considered external relations issues, including Syria and Libya.

At the GAC, I emphasised that the Prime Minister was looking forward to a substantial discussion on the UK’s EU renegotiation at the December European Council.

Enlargement and stabilisation and association process

The UK continues to be a strong supporter of conditions-based EU enlargement, which has helped bring peace, prosperity and stability across the continent of Europe. We continue to support the future EU membership of all of the western Balkans and Turkey, provided EU aspirant countries meet all the requirements of membership before accession.

I broadly welcomed the enlargement conclusions and congratulated Commissioner Hahn for his engagement in the region. I made clear that I would have liked to have seen in the conclusions a stronger commitment for the EU institutions to do more on strategic communications in the western Balkans.

I expressed my concerns about the 10 December decision by the Republika Srpska (RS) Government to suspend co-operation with the state-level judicial and law enforcement authorities in Bosnia and Herzegovina (BiH). I set out that political obstacles needed to be removed, including threats of unconstitutional referendums, which challenged the Dayton agreement and its core structures. I also expressed concern about the ongoing political situation in Kosovo and highlighted the importance of Kosovo having a clearer EU perspective.

2016 European semester annual growth review

The Commission presented the 2016 annual growth survey (AGS) to the GAC which focuses on the key themes in President Junker’s investment plan. The Commission proposed to pursue an integrated approach to economic and social policy in 2016, centred around three pillars: boosting investment, pursuing structural reforms to modernise European economies and pursuing fiscal responsibility. The UK supports the Commission’s headline priorities for promoting jobs and growth.

[HCWS446]

EU Membership (UK Renegotiation)

David Lidington Excerpts

Tuesday 5th January 2016 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Percy, and I hope that this is but the first of a number of such occasions.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) on securing the debate. As he said in his opening remarks, he is a long-standing, open and honourable opponent of Britain’s membership of the European Union, and I know he will not take it with any sense of offence if I say that I would have been flabbergasted had there been any conceivable renegotiation by this or any other Prime Minister that would have come near to being satisfactory enough for him to support continued EU membership. My hon. Friend set out his case as I would have expected—lucidly and with conviction—and I want to spend most of my speech addressing some of his points.

As I suspect Members had anticipated, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will make an oral statement this afternoon on the outcome of the December European Council, and the House will understand that I will not pre-empt what he may say in that statement and in his answers to subsequent questions.

My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) expressed some scepticism about the current negotiation, claiming that everything had been agreed and it was all just a matter of choreography. His view of the choreography seems to have the same generosity of spirit as Craig Revel Horwood shows when assessing the skill of “Strictly Come Dancing” competitors. If only my hon. Friend had been with me at European ministerial meetings! I will even lend him a badge with the blue flag and the gold stars on it if that will aid his passage into the Justus Lipsius building.

I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley would recognise that the arguments of our right hon. Friend the Prime Minister are not being met with an unreserved welcome from our partners. They have made it clear that they wish the United Kingdom to stay in the European Union, and that the European Union itself is stronger for this country’s membership. At the December European Council, Heads of Government raised objections and difficulties in respect of all four areas of policy. In the eyes of our partners, the Prime Minister is pursuing an ambitious and far-reaching set of reforms that challenge a number of the ways in which the European Union has been accustomed to doing its business and thinking about its vocation.

My hon. Friend the Member for Kettering mentioned a number of concerns about which I hope to give him a measure of reassurance. He talked about the Five Presidents report. The report is explicitly and chiefly about the future of the eurozone, and there is a challenge for those of our partners who have decided to commit themselves to that currency union. We can take a view as to whether they were wise to do so, but it was their sovereign decision. It seems logical that a commitment to a single monetary policy, a single interest rate and a banking union has broad implications for the future conduct of fiscal and economic policy, and our colleagues in the eurozone may therefore wish to consider some of the ideas coming out of the report, such as a eurozone treasury function and a single eurozone—not EU—seat on bodies such as the International Monetary Fund. Such decisions would not bind, or create obligations for, the United Kingdom, and if the Five Presidents report were to lead to a new European Union treaty, that would require the unanimous agreement of member states and be subject to primary legislation in the UK. Were any such treaty to include measures that transferred additional competences from the United Kingdom to the European Union, it would also be subject, under the terms of the European Union Act 2011, to a self-standing referendum in this country. I would hope, therefore, that my hon. Friend could take some reassurance on that point.

My hon. Friend also mentioned Greece, and I can tell the House that the UK has, and has had, no liability in respect of Greece, either through the European stability mechanism or the European financial stability facility—EFSM—which are both euro-only. Greece has paid back its bridging loan through the EFSM, but the UK had, in any case, ensured that we would face no liability in the event of Greece defaulting on that obligation. Greece has IMF loans, to which we contribute our usual share, and our IMF liability would continue whether we were inside or outside the European Union.

My hon. Friend also mentioned Turkish accession, which is something that both Conservative and Labour Governments over the years have supported as a strategic objective. Although we are nowhere near such accession at the moment, it would require the unanimous agreement of member states and a treaty, subject to primary legislation here. The Prime Minister has said that he is not prepared to agree to any new accessions to the European Union without reform of the transitional arrangements for migration from new countries, to put them on a much more effective and objective basis than the time limit of five or seven years after which all restrictions fall away.

It is hard to argue both that the EU will be inimical to our interests, resistant to what we want to do and jealous of our freedom of national action and that, in the event of a British exit, it would agree to sign up to our continuing to enjoy all the things we like about EU membership without any of the things that might matter to other countries but which we find irksome. Whatever the outcome of the renegotiation, that will be something that people will have to weigh up. My hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) said that it will not be the end of the world if we leave the EU, and I agree, but the judgment that the British people will ultimately have to make is whether it is in the interests of the country’s prosperity, national security and worldwide diplomatic influence to be inside or outside the organisation.

When we consider trade, for example, we have to judge the likelihood of getting a free trade agreement outside the EU. In 2014, we sent roughly 44% of our exports to the EU27 but received only about 10% of that bloc’s exports. We would not be in as powerful a leverage position in the hypothetical circumstances as is sometimes argued, nor have Norway and Switzerland found that they can simply have all the benefits of access to the European single market without the obligation to apply EU laws—as the effect of that single market—and to contribute to the European Union’s budget.

I look forward, therefore, to the Prime Minister’s being successful in his renegotiation, to his getting a deal that makes Europe more democratic, prosperous, trade-minded and flexible than it is today, and to campaigning in his support when the referendum comes.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered renegotiation of UK membership of the EU.