Oral Answers to Questions

David Lidington Excerpts

Tuesday 30th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)]

8. What assessment he has made of the political consequences in the middle east of the exploration for oil and gas off the coast of Cyprus.

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

The discovery of oil and gas resources has the potential to bring greater prosperity and energy security to the region. We hope that all countries in the region will work to overcome their differences to develop those resources in a mutually beneficial way.

[Jim Sheridan]

I thank the Minister for that response. He will be aware that Cyprus has moved on from olive oil to crude oil, and there are genuine concerns among all Cypriot people that the illegal occupying forces in the north may wish to assist the exploration of that oil against the best wishes of the Cypriot people. If that were to happen, what options would be open to the UK Government, given that we are a governing power and we do have a significant military presence on the island?

[Mr Lidington]

We have repeatedly stated publicly our acceptance that the Republic of Cyprus has sovereign rights to exploit its mineral reserves within its exclusive economic zone. We think that the prospect of the greater prosperity that would flow from the successful exploitation of hydrocarbon resources in the eastern Mediterranean is one of many reasons why it is in the interests of Cyprus—all communities in Cyprus—of Turkey and of Greece to reach a settlement to the maritime disputes in that region and a final settlement to the Cyprus question, too.

[Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)]

Given the stalling of the political search for a solution to the Cyprus problem, does not this exciting prospect of the exploration of hydrocarbon reserves highlight both that Britain has an important role as a guarantor power in ensuring that these are resources for the whole island of Cyprus, and that reunification of the island is an economic necessity for Cyprus and the greater region?

[Mr Lidington]

It is certainly important that these resources are seen as being developed for the benefit of all communities in Cyprus, not just for one section of the population there. Any settlement that endures in Cyprus has to have the wholehearted consent of both the Greek and Turkish Cypriot communities. That is why, although we want to support the work towards a settlement, it is right that that process towards—we hope—a final settlement has to be Cypriot-led.

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

9. What recent representations he has made on behalf of Shaker Aamer; and if he will make a statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)]

Will the Foreign Secretary confirm that the EU annual budget and multi-annual framework increased at least a dozen times while Labour was in power but that to accuse that Government of being responsible for all those complex and EU-wide budget increases would be as simplistic and opportunistic as the attack made by the right hon. Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls) on this Government yesterday?

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

I think that we have to judge the previous Government on the basis of what they actually did while in office. The fact remains that they took decisions that conceded the loss of a quarter of the United Kingdom’s hard-won rebate and left us with a current financial framework for the EU that was £13 billion over what they said in office would be the maximum they would accept. They let our country down, and they let it down badly.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

What contact has the Foreign Secretary had with the Government of Turkey concerning the ongoing hunger strikes of Kurdish political prisoners and the demand for the release of Ocalan so that there can be negotiations on a future for the Kurdish people in Turkey whereby their language and their culture will be fully recognised in accordance with the recommendations of the Council of Europe?

[Mr Lidington]

We always try to make it clear in our conversations with the Turkish Government at both ministerial and official level that it is important that Turkey continues to make progress towards political reform and full implementation of the rule of law measures that we all want to see. I hope that the discussions between the Turkish political parties on a new constitution take us several steps forward. I would be happy to talk to the hon. Gentleman further about the particular case that he has described.

[Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend update the House on developments in Somalia?

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

What assessment has been made of the monitoring report by the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe on the outcome of the Ukrainian parliamentary elections?

[Mr Lidington]

We have had a preliminary report from the observers that indicates a number of shortcomings. We hope that in the remaining stages of the electoral process, in any appeals that follow, and, crucially, in how the Ukrainian Government conduct themselves after the elections, we will not see the wholesale democratic backsliding that we fear and that would set back Ukraine’s relationship with Europe.

[Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)]

Many emerging economies such as China are showing significant interest in investing in energy projects off the East Anglian coast. Will the Minister outline his plans, working with other Departments, to maximise these trade opportunities to create jobs?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

In Azerbaijan there is continuing arbitrary detention, torture and trumped-up charges against human rights defenders, journalists and now even YouTube uploaders. What active interest is the Government taking in relation to a number of recent and current cases in the courts?

[Mr Lidington]

We raise both general concerns and individual cases in the regular conversations between our ambassador and the Azeri authorities. I also do so myself when I have what are quite frequent conversations with the Azeri Foreign Minister.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

European Communities Act 1972 (Repeal) Bill

David Lidington Excerpts

Friday 26th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

My hon. Friend the Member for Clacton (Mr Carswell) has always been a champion of greater direct democracy in this House. In choosing to introduce a Bill that was selected in the way he described, he has demonstrated to the House that he is fully prepared to practise what he preaches.

As the debate has shown, the Bill, which has considerable technical deficiencies, is in effect being used as a proxy for a debate about the principle of whether the United Kingdom should be in the European Union. The challenge to my hon. Friend is that our continued membership for 40 years derives not from some mythical conspiracy of civil servants in King Charles street—by the way, they come from a much more diverse range of social and educational backgrounds these days than the caricature he presented to the House—but from a hard-headed, calculated and pragmatic decision by successive Governments, and successive leaders of the Conservative party, that despite the acknowledged flaws and drawbacks of the European Union as it has existed and as it exists today, our membership of it is to the national advantage. It is to the advantage of the British people because of what it gives us through trade, market access, the attraction of foreign direct investment, and increased diplomatic leverage over foreign and security policies.

My hon. Friend the Member for Clacton posed what I think is a false choice between increasing our trade with the emerging markets of Asia and Latin America and maintaining the lion’s share of our trade that remains with the European Union. Although I think that future growth will indeed, as he says, come largely from those emerging markets, the bulk of our trade and inward investment will continue to come from Europe.

Foreign Affairs/Development Foreign Affairs/General Affairs Councils

David Lidington Excerpts

Friday 26th October 2012 Written Statements

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary attended the Foreign Affairs Council (FAC) in Luxembourg on 15 October. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Development attended the Development FAC held later the same day. I attended the General Affairs Council (GAC), also in Luxembourg, on 16 October.

Foreign Affairs Council (FAC)

The meeting was chaired by the High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Baroness Ashton of Upholland. A provisional report of the meeting and all conclusions adopted can be found at:

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_data/docs/pressdata/EN/foraff/132896.pdf

Mali

Ministers agreed conclusions that called on the Malian Government of National Unity to adopt a road map towards the restoration of constitutional order and a united Mali. Progress on this would allow the gradual resumption of EU development co-operation. Recognising the urgent need to improve the security situation, the Council agreed to proceed with planning for a military CSDP mission to help restructure and train the Malian army and asked the High Representative and the Commission to explore what additional support to give to regional partners, particularly ECOWAS. The High Representative set out three pillars for EU action in Mali: support to the political process; support to internal political negotiations; and support to ensure a credible threat of force if other efforts failed. Ministers welcomed the adoption on 12 October of United Nations Security Council Resolution 2071 pointing to the excellent co-ordination between New York and Brussels, and agreed that the EU should play an active role in resolving the Malian crisis. The EU action needed to follow African, and in particular Malian, ownership and be based on a further UNSCR.

The Foreign Secretary highlighted the urgency of the crisis and informed the Council of the appointment of Stephen O’Brien MP as the UK special envoy for the Sahel as a sign of the importance the UK attached to the region. The Foreign Secretary expressed full support for the need to begin urgent planning for a CSDP mission, and stressed that it was vital not to lose sight of needs elsewhere, particularly in Somalia, and that the EU needed to support progress in both parts of the continent, backed up by financial support.

Southern Neighbourhood

Ministers reviewed developments in Syria and in Egypt.

Ministers agreed conclusions on Syria condemning the violence, urging all donors to increase humanitarian aid, and agreeing EU support to Syrian civil society and work with international partners on planning for Syria post-transition. The FAC agreed a further round of EU sanctions, designating new Syrian Government Ministers, designating new entities and extending the flight ban to cover all Syria Arab Airline passenger flights to the EU.

The Foreign Secretary said in a statement after the meeting:

“I welcome the EU’s decision today to adopt a 19th round of sanctions against the Syrian regime, to provide support to civil society inside Syria and to work with the international community to plan for a post-Assad Syria. The landmark agreement to work with civil society will help build essential capacity to enable a peaceful transition.

It is utterly unacceptable that the regime continues to attack its own people with brutality and without remorse. This latest package of sanctions, which strikes at the heart of the regime, targets senior members of the Assad government and entities with links to the regime’s chemical and biological weapons programme. These new sanctions give a clear warning to those close to the regime that if they back Assad and commit acts of violence and torture against civilians, the international community will hold them accountable.

As the conflict escalates, it is ordinary Syrians who suffer: women and children are the victims of sexual abuse by the regime and its militia; over 300,000 refugees have been forced to flee to neighbouring countries to seek sanctuary; and over 2.5 million people are in need of urgent assistance.

Our objective remains an end to the violence and a transition to a more democratic and stable Syria through a political solution. We urge all members of the international community to implement similar sanctions to choke off the resources the Assad regime needs to continue the killing and to continue to threaten regional stability. No country should shut its eyes to the horrors we are witnessing. History and the Syrian people will judge them harshly if they do.”

On Egypt, Ministers looked ahead to the EU-Egypt taskforce, on November 13-14. The Foreign Secretary welcomed the importance placed on the taskforce, and stressed that this was an opportunity for Egypt to address its political reforms, and that further support should be matched to progress on agreed reforms.

Middle East Peace Process

Baroness Ashton briefed Ministers following the United Nations General Assembly high-level segment. During the subsequent exchange, Ministers discussed President Abbas’ intention to put forward a UN General Assembly resolution on Palestinian status, and considered what the EU could do to enhance the prospects for negotiations in 2013.

The High Representative informed Ministers that she would shortly be travelling to Israel, the Occupied Palestinian Territories, Jordan and Lebanon.

Iran

Ministers agreed a comprehensive package of additional sanctions against Iran, with UK proposals providing the backbone. The package significantly increases the pressure on Iran to negotiate seriously on the nuclear issue. It includes measures on Iran’s finance, trade, energy and transport sectors, for example:

a financial cut-off: banning all financial links with Iran, unless explicitly authorised; the full designation of the Central Bank of Iran; and further restrictions on the supply of export credit;

trade bans in several key sectors including energy, naval equipment, metals and graphite as well as software used by industries controlled by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps; and

a gas embargo, sanctions on all the key Iranian energy companies and ministries as well as further measures to prevent circumvention of the oil embargo agreed in January.

We also pushed to include clear exemptions for humanitarian transactions, such as payments for medicines and foodstuffs.

Ministers also agreed conclusions which condemned Iran’s continued production of enriched uranium and expansion of its enrichment capacity, set out the new sanctions package, stressed the need for Iran to engage seriously with negotiations and reiterated the EU's commitment to the dual-track approach of pressure and engagement.

Following the meeting the Foreign Secretary said:

“The EU has today increased the pressure on Iran through another substantial package of sanctions. These are a direct response to Iran’s continued refusal to take concrete steps to address our concerns about its nuclear programme.

Despite six UN Security Council Resolutions calling for Iran to cease enrichment-related activities and offer reassurance to the world, and repeated International Atomic Energy Agency reports highlighting questions that Iran has yet to answer, Iran continues to chose the wrong path. It is enriching uranium on a scale that has no plausible civilian justification and increasing its enrichment capacity at a heavily-protected site that it originally sought to keep secret.

The EU’s message today is clear: Iran should not underestimate our resolve. The choices being made by Iran’s leaders are already having a profound impact.

Today we have taken steps to prohibit financial transactions with Iranian banks, to intensify restrictions in the energy sector and to limit some areas of trade, in order to choke off revenue that Iran is using for its nuclear programme, prevent it from accessing materials for the programme, and prevent it from circumventing existing sanctions.

We will continue to do all we can to increase the peaceful pressure on Iran to change course and to return to talks ready to reach a negotiated solution by addressing the world’s concerns. We want a negotiated solution, but Iran must show that it is willing to address our concerns”.

EU-China Summit

The High Representative briefed Ministers on the EU-China summit held on 20 September, in view of the discussion expected at the European Council of 18-19 October on relations with strategic partners. She stated that it had been a good opportunity to continue to build the relationship, and underlined the importance of the EU having a co-ordinated approach.

Eastern Neighbourhood

Ministers agreed conclusions on Belarus, recording the rollover for one year of the existing sanctions regime (without adding any new listings on this occasion), noting the missed opportunity of the 23 September parliamentary elections, and restating the elements of the EU’s policy towards Belarus. The conclusions again call on Belarus to respect diplomatic privileges and immunities, reflecting the regime’s de facto closure of the Swedish embassy in Minsk.

Ministers agreed conclusions on Georgia, congratulating the Georgian people on the significant democratic step represented by the 1 October parliamentary elections, recognising and setting out the EU’s offer to Georgia to help support that political transition and ensure that it continues to be a peaceful and constitutional one.

Other business

Ministers agreed without discussion a number of others measures, including:

Authorisation for the Commission to open negotiations for a framework agreement with Kosovo concerning its participation in EU programmes and adopted negotiating directives.

Conclusions on the Common Security and Defence Policy (CSDP) operation EUFOR Althea, which

“confirm the EU’s readiness to continue at this stage an executive military role to support Bosnia and Herzegovina’s efforts to maintain the safe and secure environment, under a renewed UN mandate”.

Adoption of revised guidelines on the criteria for selection procedures in UN system organisations, the EU co-ordination of applications, and support for third country candidates.

Implementation of changes to the UN sanctions regime against Eritrea in EU law.

Following changes decided in the UN Security Council, amendments to the restrictive measures in view of the situation in Somalia.

Adoption of the EU position for the sixth meeting of the Association Council with Lebanon, due to take place on 17 October in Brussels.

Development Foreign Affairs Council

Commissioners Piebalgs (Development) and Georgieva (Humanitarian) attended the meeting chaired by Baroness Ashton.

Summary

The Secretary of State for International Development represented the UK and held a set of introductory bilateral meetings with EU counterparts and the Commission. The Secretary of State called for further reforms of EU aid, including to focus resources on the poorest and to deliver better results. An extensive debate in the Council on the post-2015 development landscape confirmed that member states were eager to shape the international debate and promote a coherent EU approach, though divergences of view remain. The UK continues to support a coherent EU position, but warned of pre-empting the UNSG’s high-level panel.

Preparing for the post-MDGs/2015 framework and Rio+20 follow-up

Baroness Ashton underlined the importance of this process which would determine the global goals that nations would sign up to for the period beyond 2015. The EU wishes to be actively engaged and develop a unified approach. The Commission (Piebalgs) noted that there were still three years to go to meet the current millennium development goals (MDGs) and that efforts should be made to achieve these. The EU believes it has a natural role in helping design a successor framework, drawing on its extensive development experience and global development leadership. A Commission communication, due early 2013, would set out a proposed EU common position; this would be discussed by Ministers at the February Development informal with a view to reaching conclusions at the May Development Council. The Commission would arrange joint events in 2013 with the African Union and with Africa Caribbean Pacific (ACP) group countries to inform the EU approach. Piebalgs also said that although he was on the UNSG’s high-level panel (HLP) in a personal capacity he wanted to reflect views of EU Development Ministers. EU Ministers voiced support for the need for a coherent approach to bring together the post-2015 development framework and the follow-up to Rio+20.

The Secretary of State underlined the importance of listening carefully to the views of developing countries and emerging economy partners in preparing the new framework, as the Prime Minister had made clear in his role as co-chair of the HLP. The UK was clear that whatever followed the MDGs should retain a strong poverty focus. Coherence between the post-2015 and sustainable development goals (SDGs) processes was key but we should not develop a fixed EU position before the HLP and SDG processes have had time to make some progress. The Secretary of State also took the opportunity to call on the Commission to push forward with its reform of EU aid to improve the poverty and results focus.

Commission Communication on Transition Societies

Baroness Ashton introduced the new communication which presented a number of options for how to support a broad range of transition processes. The Commission (Piebalgs) elaborated by explaining that the communication was about harnessing the EU and member states transition experience and put it to good use in development programming, recognising that EU support should always be driven by partner countries’ requirements and avoid a “one size fits all” approach. The EU Council presidency (Cyprus) will shortly table a set of draft Council conclusions which will be subject to detailed debate prior to adoption later in the year.

Commission Communication on Resilience

The Commission (Georgieva) introduced the new communication which called for the EU to place efforts to build resilience at heart of its development work. Investment in resilience was noted as good value, as larger costs were avoided later. The communication set out how the EU could better anticipate crises, invest in prevention and enhance response capabilities; all of which were informed by lessons learned Supporting Horn of Africa Resilience (SHARE) and l’Alliance Globale pour l’Initiative Réslience Sahel (AGIR). The UK (Cunliffe) supported the Commission’s work on resilience, calling for greater focus on effective resilience efforts internationally.

Adoption of Council Conclusions

The Council adopted conclusions on: Europe’s engagement with civil society in external relations; social protection in European Union development co-operation; financing for development; and the annual report 2012 on the EU’s development and external assistance policies in 2011.

General Affairs Council (GAC)



The GAC was chaired by the Cypriot EU presidency, Mr Andreas Mavroyiannis, Deputy Minister for European Affairs. A provisional report of the meeting can be found at:

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/ueDocs/cms_Data/docs/pressData/EN/genaff/132908.pdf

Multiannual Financial Framework informal breakfast

Before the plenary session of the General Affairs Council (GAC) the Cypriot EU presidency hosted an informal breakfast meeting to discuss the multiannual financial framework (MFF). This meeting included representatives from the European Parliament and the Cabinet of the President of the European Council. The Cypriot EU presidency circulated a non-paper in advance of the meeting, which focused on “Better Spending” proposals, macro-economic conditionality and flexibility. I have placed a copy in the Libraries of both Houses.

As well as defending the UK rebate, I spoke on behalf of the “Likeminded” group of member states and made six points. I re-emphasised the need for the MFF to reflect the tough consolidation efforts that are being made by member states at home; for the sake of transparency, all areas of spending should be brought on budget; there needs to be substantial reductions to administrative costs; the effectiveness and value for money of all EU budget spending must be improved—cohesion policy in particular should be designed to contribute more to growth in the EU’s poorest regions; the Reste à Liquider (RAL) issue of unspent commitments must be addressed in the next MFF to ensure predictability and stability in the levels of payments for all member states; and the “Reverse Safety Net” and “Payments Guarantee” need to be included in the negotiating box in part to address the issue of RAL and also to deliver the necessary savings required in cohesion funding from the Commission’s proposals.

Cohesion Policy

The presidency sought a partial general approach on elements of the package of cohesion regulations. They presented seven blocks to be agreed: territorial development, information and communication, financial aspects not covered by the MFF, elements of European territorial co-operation, indicators, management and control, and country-specific recommendations in strategic programming.

The Ministers of the GAC, including myself, were broadly content with the package. I supported on the basis that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, but noted that we would have preferred to see more “results” and “outcome” common indicators across the funds. I also highlighted the disproportionate administrative burden that the Commission’s additionality proposals would create for some member states, including the UK. Additionality is where member states are required to maintain levels of national spending to ensure that EU funds do not displace member state spending.

All member states agreed to the partial general approach, but Italy asked for a statement to be added to the minutes on their behalf. This will maintain their reserve overall on the financial aspects not covered by the MFF block and was due to their concerns about the additionality proposals in their current form.

October and November European Councils

During the plenary session, and over a lunch which included European Council President Herman van Rompuy, there was discussion on the European Council which took place on the 18 and 19 October. The main thrust of this meeting was on banking union and economic policy, including the presentation of the interim report on economic and monetary union from the four Presidents, European Council President Herman van Rompuy, European Commission President José Manuel Barroso, European Central Bank President Mario Draghi and Eurogroup President Jean-Claude Juncker. There was also discussion of strategic partners, focusing on EU/China relations, and of foreign policy, specifically Syria and Iran.

I reaffirmed the UK’s concerns that the banking union proposals must respect the integrity of the single market, especially decision-making arrangements in the European Banking Authority. I also called for more ambition on trade, specifically with the US. We should also be looking to open negotiations with Japan before the end of the year.

The Prime Minister and Leader of the House of Lords provided further details of the events at the October European Council itself in statements made on Monday 22 October.

The Cypriot presidency formally introduced the annotated agenda for the November European Council which will focus exclusively on the multiannual financial framework.

Follow-up on other European Councils

At the last meeting of the General Affairs Council (GAC) on 24 September I argued that there should be a stronger role for the GAC in following up on the implementation of European Council conclusions. In response, the Cypriot EU presidency presented a report on the ongoing work requested at previous European Council meetings.

This useful presentation highlighted areas where faster progress was required, such as the “two-pack” of economic measures; the need to maintain momentum on the Single Supervisory Rule Book; and parts of the Single Market Act I and II, where the Commission aim to deliver all key legislative proposals by spring 2013.

Any other business: Informal Ministerial Conference on the Integrated Maritime Policy

The presidency updated the Council on the 8 October Limassol conference. This conference discussed the economic, environmental and social challenges affecting all sectors of the marine and maritime economy and emphasised the importance of the maritime economy to jobs and growth (“Blue Growth”).

I will continue to update Parliament on future Foreign Affairs Councils, Development Foreign Affairs Councils, and General Affairs Councils.

Cross-border Travel (Spain/Gibraltar)

David Lidington Excerpts

Monday 15th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Jim Dobbin (Heywood and Middleton) (Lab/Co-op)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs to make a statement about the deteriorating situation of cross-border travel between Spain and Gibraltar.

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

On Tuesday 9 October and again between Friday 12 October and Sunday 14 October, significant delays occurred at the border between Gibraltar and Spain. Travellers have been delayed by between 45 minutes and six hours as a result of more rigorous checks introduced by the Spanish Guardia Civil on vehicles leaving Gibraltar. I should say to the House that as of this afternoon, the information that I have suggests that there is a less than 20-minute wait for cars and 10-minute wait for bikes at the border.

Spain has justified the more rigorous checks as being related to anti-tobacco smuggling operations. Tobacco smuggling does occur between Gibraltar and Spain: however, the Spanish authorities have not yet provided the Government of Gibraltar with evidence to explain why, in this case, increased checks were required.

There have been delays at the border many times in the past, most recently in May 2012, and this current disruption comes at a time when tensions between Gibraltar and Spain have increased because of a dispute over Spanish fishing rights in British Gibraltar territorial waters. The view of many in Gibraltar is that the delays are an attempt to increase pressure on Gibraltar to resolve that fishing dispute. Gibraltar’s Chief Minister, Fabian Picardo, has been critical of the delays, and the criticism of Spanish action has been shared by the ASCTEG, the association of Spanish workers who commute daily into Gibraltar.

Disruption to border flows has a direct impact on the prosperity and well-being of communities on both sides of the border, in particular the 7,000 mostly Spanish people who travel every day from Spain to Gibraltar and back for work. The Government’s position is that these delays are unacceptable and have no place at a border between EU partners.

We raised this issue over this weekend at a very high level with the Spanish Government. We will also be protesting formally to the local Guardia Civil. We will continue to monitor the situation closely and take whatever action is appropriate to support the free movement of people between Gibraltar and Spain.

[Jim Dobbin]

I thank the Minister for his reply. Can he justify why the Spanish ambassador has not yet been summoned to the Foreign Office to explain why the border closures and incursions into Gibraltar waters are taking place? The entire policy by the Spanish is unacceptable. This is an EU border, not a third-world war zone. It is akin to the French closing the Spanish border through Andorra. The Spanish need to accept that the Gibraltar people have decided through self-determination to remain with Britain.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Lidington]

We have not called in the Spanish ambassador because, as I said in my earlier remarks, this was raised directly with the Spanish Government at a significantly higher level.

[Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con)]

Although the House will appreciate that the Minister is doing all that he can in negotiations with the Spanish Government, will he agree with most Members of the House that the situation in Gibraltar is simply unacceptable? While people in Madrid may give assurances that the Spanish Government are acting in a way that is acceptable to the UK Government, what actually happens day to day is that the Guardia Civil under local management in Algeciras and La Línea do whatever they wish, not only on the border but in making incursions by sea into British Gibraltar territorial waters whenever they wish to do so and in a way that is deliberately designed to make life difficult for the people and Government of Gibraltar. If the Minister can assure the House that he understands that and will make it clear to the Government of Spain, we will be happy.

[Mr Lidington]

Where there is a genuine case for increased checks at the border because of an acknowledged need to combat smuggling or other criminal activity, that might be fair. In such a case, however, we would expect the Spanish authorities to be open with the Government of Gibraltar about those circumstances, but that has not been the case hitherto in this instance.

So far as maritime incursions are concerned, we are absolutely confident of the United Kingdom’s sovereignty over British Gibraltar territorial waters, which is why the Royal Navy challenges Guardia Civil and other Spanish state vessels whenever they make unlawful maritime incursions into British Gibraltar territorial waters. We back that up through formal diplomatic protests to the Spanish Government about all unlawful incursions. Those challenges and protests make it clear that such incursions are an unacceptable violation of British sovereignty.

[Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Middleton (Jim Dobbin) on securing this important urgent question. The Opposition continue to support the self-determination of the Gibraltan people and their right to remain under British sovereignty, as we did in government, so I welcome the Minister’s answer on that. We also welcome the fact that Chief Minister Fabian Picardo, who is in London today, has been in touch with the Government and that discussions have taken place between the Minister for Europe and the Gibraltan Chief Minister.

I agree that the delays of up to five or six hours at the border between Spain and Gibraltar are simply unacceptable, and I welcome the Minister’s discussions with the Gibraltan Chief Minister. I echo his observation that this is also of deep concern to the thousands of Spanish workers who cross the border every day to work in Gibraltar. What more can the Government do to ensure that these delays do not happen again, and that the reasons given in this and other instances by the Spanish Government are properly investigated and that evidence is produced for what many think are just excuses? Finally, what discussions has the Minister had with the Spanish Government about their decision to abandon the trilateral forum, and what pressure is he and the Foreign Secretary exerting on the Spanish Government to return to it?

[Mr Lidington]

I agree with the hon. Lady that the border delays end up penalising Spanish workers as much as the people of Gibraltar. The delays get in the way of sensible economic relations between Gibraltar and the neighbouring regions of Spain, and therefore interrupt what ought to be a mutually beneficial economic relationship. They harm jobs and hopes of prosperity. We shall continue to raise with the Spanish authorities at every appropriate level cases where we think that the border delays that have been imposed have not been adequately justified. The Government of Gibraltar regularly co-operate with Spain in tackling tobacco smuggling and other forms of criminal activity. That is the sort of sensible, constructive co-operation we want.

The British Government very much regret that the current Spanish Government refuse to take part in further meetings of the trilateral, which we believe well serves both Gibraltar and Spain, as well as the United Kingdom. We would like some kind of equivalent collaborative system established, but so far Spain has refused to return to the trilateral. I am grateful for what the hon. Lady said about her support for British sovereignty over Gibraltar and respecting the rights of its people. I particularly welcome her remarks, if they mark a break with the proposals for shared sovereignty and the betrayal of the people of Gibraltar that the Labour party supported when in office.

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

We are grateful to Ministers for their robust view on this matter. There is a strong view in Gibraltar that since the Government changed in Madrid there has been a much less obvious willingness to collaborate with the Government of Gibraltar, as well as incursions into our waters and regular blockages of the border. Will Ministers put it on the agenda for the next meeting with Madrid that the way for a civilised Government in Spain to behave, if they want to make a joint effort on the border, is to warn Gibraltar, do it together and stop this uncivilised and tribal attitude from a country that wants to be regarded as a full and civilised member of the EU?

[Mr Lidington]

My right hon. Friend makes a very good point about the beneficial effect of practical co-operation between the Governments of Spain and Gibraltar, a subject that is frequently on the agenda in discussions between the British and Spanish sides. It is fair to say that although the new Spanish Government have introduced a policy towards the trilateral which we have found unwelcome—they know that that is our attitude towards their policy—the Prime Minister of Spain has also made it clear publicly that he does not want the argument about Gibraltar to get in the way of a fruitful bilateral relationship between Spain and the United Kingdom. I hope very much that we can get back to the sort of practical, local co-operation that my right hon. Friend referred to and wants to see in future.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

On Friday—the day that the EU was awarded the Nobel peace prize—there was a five-hour queue on the Gibraltar-Spain border, which is an EU border. Will the Minister call in the Spanish ambassador each and every day that there is a delay of five hours on the border between Gibraltar and Spain, and will he keep the ambassador waiting for five hours?

[Mr Lidington]

What I can say to the hon. Gentleman is that wherever we have evidence that border delays are being imposed without good reason, we will take that up with the Spanish authorities at the appropriate level. That may sometimes be at the local, operational level; it may sometimes, as in the most recent case, need to be at a senior level, with the Spanish Government in Madrid.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

I welcome the strong statement by the Minister today and the equally strong statement from the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) on the Opposition Front Bench about Gibraltar’s sovereignty. The Minister will know that tobacco smuggling regularly occurs—and to a much greater extent than between Gibraltar and Spain—across the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland—

[Ian Paisley]

North and south. Yet despite that, there have never been such delays or such an overreaction by the services in Northern Ireland in relation to our trade and the impact on our trade. I hope that the Minister will send the strongest possible signal and, indeed, that he will ask our Prime Minister to represent fairly the people of Gibraltar to the Spanish Prime Minister and tell him to get his hands off this Rock. It’s not going their way.

[Mr Lidington]

The UK Government, from the Prime Minister down, could not have been clearer to our friends and partners in Spain that although we want a good bilateral relationship with them, we will not, and we shall never, agree to any transfer of sovereignty over Gibraltar unless that were the wish of the people of Gibraltar, nor would we enter into any process of sovereignty talks and negotiations unless the people of Gibraltar were content with that.

[Mr MacShane]

I wish the Minister well. I negotiated the trilateral agreement, and for a few years we had a bit of peace and quiet. I am sorry that it is all going wrong for him; Gibraltar is a nightmare for anybody in his job. However, the House does not help the Minister or the people of Gibraltar with patronising remarks about civilised behaviour and the rest of it. We need to cool things down. The queues are unacceptable, but jaw-jaw is better than queue-queue. I wish the Minister well as he tries to get this back under control.

[Mr Lidington]

I am always willing to welcome good wishes, particularly in my job, even if they are from the right hon. Gentleman. However, I would disagree with him profoundly in one respect: when he described Gibraltar as a “nightmare”. I do not think Gibraltar is a nightmare; I think Gibraltar is a thriving and now pretty prosperous community, with an entrepreneurial people who want good relations with their neighbours across the border in Spain, but who also want their democratic rights respected and their wish to remain British respected too.

European Stability Mechanism and German Constitutional Court Ruling

David Lidington Excerpts

Friday 14th September 2012 Written Statements

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

On 12 September the German constitutional court announced its decision not to grant temporary injunctions relating to the proposed ratification in Germany of the European stability mechanism (ESM) treaty, the fiscal compact and the decision amending article 136 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union (TFEU). We welcome the court’s decision which will allow the German Government to proceed with its ratification of the ESM treaty and the article 136 amendment decision.

The court added caveats to its decision: first that the Bundestag must be fully involved in the relevant decisions and give formal approval to use of the ESM; secondly that there should be a ceiling for German liability of €190 million and that this cannot be increased without the Bundestag’s approval; and thirdly that the requirement of professional secrecy imposed on the members of the ESM should not prevent the Bundestag from being kept fully informed on ESM decision-making processes.

During the Committee stage of the EU (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill I referenced the anticipated 12 September German constitutional court decision, stating that it related only to whether the ESM treaty and the fiscal compact are compatible with the German constitution—10 September 2012, Official Report, column 63—to clarify this, the ruling was in relation to six separate cases brought before the constitutional court. These cases were directed primarily against the ESM, which, it was contended, would among other things jeopardise the constitutionally guaranteed right of the Bundestag to control the budget and the use of taxpayers’ money, and would turn a stability union into a transfer union. They also dealt with the fiscal compact and, in two of the cases, the decision amending article 136 TFEU to which the constitutional court gave the go-ahead to ratification without conditions.

The Government’s position on the ESM remains. The ESM alone will not solve the eurozone crisis, but will play an important role, providing the eurozone with a permanent financial assistance mechanism to assist eurozone member states in financial difficulty. And financial stability in the eurozone is crucial to our own economic recovery in the UK.

European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [Lords]

David Lidington Excerpts

Monday 10th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

Clause 1 sets out the purpose of the Bill and why legislation is required. It is required by section 3 of the European Union Act 2011, under which primary legislation must be passed to confirm parliamentary approval of certain European Council decisions. The provisions of section 3 relate to Council decisions made under article 48(6) of the treaty on European Union, and the reason for that provision in the Act was that such decisions allow for the revision of European Union treaties. The procedure under article 48(6) is known as the simplified revision procedure. In taking through the 2011 Act, the Government enhanced the role of Parliament in the approval of any such revision of the European Union treaties. The Bill marks the first use of those new provisions.

The purpose of the Bill, as set out in subsection (2), is to approve the

“European Council decision of 25 March 2011 amending Article 136 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union”.

That decision seeks to add a new paragraph to article 136, which recognises that EU member states whose currency is the euro—I stress that the proposed new paragraph applies only to eurozone members—may establish a financial stability mechanism. In other words, it confirms that the eurozone member states can set up a permanent stability mechanism to support fellow eurozone members that are in financial difficulty.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

The former Financial Secretary to the Treasury, the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr Hoban), stated in evidence to the European Scrutiny Committee that

“we do not believe that it is legally necessary for the Article 136 change to be made before the ESM comes into force. It is desirable, but I do not think that it is necessary.”

Have the Government changed their position since that statement, or was the Financial Secretary wrong?

[Mr Lidington]

It has been our position since the proposal was first made in autumn 2010 that such an amendment of article 136 would give eurozone member states firmer constitutional and legal certainty than if they simply proceeded to establish the permanent stability mechanism without recourse to such a treaty amendment.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

I congratulate the Minister on surviving the reshuffle. He is well on his way to being the longest serving Minister for Europe for some time.

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[Keith Vaz]

Certainly since my right hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane) held the post.

I should have had this point clarified on Second Reading. Will the Minister confirm that none of the funds that we are talking about will in any way affect the ability of the European Union to support new member countries such as Croatia? Will he clarify that this matter is completely separate from and has nothing to do with enlargement?

[Mr Lidington]

Yes, I give the right hon. Gentleman that firm assurance. This is nothing to do with enlargement. In effect, the treaty amendment provides a bridging clause between the existing European Union treaties and the separate intergovernmental European stability mechanism treaty that is being reached by the 17 members of the eurozone. It is that intergovernmental treaty that will set out in detail how the stability mechanism for the eurozone will operate.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

I welcome the Minister back to the Dispatch Box. He has been helpful on occasions—[Laughter]—on rare occasions.

What I do not understand—this goes to the heart of the matter—is why, if there is an intergovernmental treaty that has nothing to do with the European Union, that we have had nothing to do with and that the Prime Minister wants nothing to do with, we have to be part of amending the EU treaties. We have been told that it has nothing to do with the EU.

[Mr Lidington]

First, I thank my hon. Friend for being so kind as to say that I am helpful to him on certain rare occasions. I am delighted to be able to return the compliment to him in similar measure.

The answer to my hon. Friend is that the proposal to amend article 136 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union would change one of the treaties of the European Union. As I am sure he realises, any amendment to the treaty on European Union or the treaty on the functioning of the European Union requires the unanimous agreement of the member states of the European Union through the national ratification process of each member state. The rule that everybody has to ratify treaty changes according to their respective constitutional arrangements still applies even if a change to the treaties excludes one or more countries. Theoretically, there could be an amendment to the European treaties that applied to only one country. That is not too fanciful a hypothesis, because there are protocols to the treaties that apply to only one or two member states, but each none the less has to be approved and ratified by all 27 existing European Union member states. We are simply following proper constitutional and legal procedure.

[Wayne David]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Lidington]

I will let the hon. Gentleman come in again, but then I want to make some progress.

[Wayne David]

The Minister is very kind. I am pleased that he has been reappointed. It is good to have a sensible Europe Minister—relatively sensible, anyhow—in place.

May I go back to the point about when the Government established their position? I notice that the former Financial Secretary gave his evidence to the European Scrutiny Committee relatively recently, in March. Is the Minister for Europe right or was the former Financial Secretary right?

[Mr Lidington]

I simply refer the hon. Gentleman to what I said in response to his earlier intervention. The amendment to article 136 will provide our friends and partners who are members of the eurozone with the additional certainty that they have sought ever since the proposal for a treaty change was first made in the autumn of 2010. He is searching for plots and mysteries where none exists. Over the past two and a half years, in every conversation that I have had with my opposite numbers from the eurozone member states, they have been anxious to find out what position the British Government were taking on the treaty amendment and keen that we should be committed to ratifying it, having agreed to it last year.

[Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con)]

I, too, am pleased to see my right hon. Friend still in his post. There are undoubtedly Euro-plots, but this is not one of them. As a member of the European Scrutiny Committee, I understood the former Financial Secretary to be talking about the European Union’s view of the legal position, not the British Government’s view. It was the EU’s view that the change was required. It was not the British Government’s responsibility. I think the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) is a little confused about that.

[Mr Lidington]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that clarification.

Clause 1(3) fulfils the requirements of the European Union Act 2011 relating to the referendum lock. It demonstrates compliance with the condition in that Act that exempts the approval of certain European Council decisions from the requirement to hold a referendum. Section 3(1) provides that a Minister may not confirm the approval of a decision made under article 48(6) of the treaty on European Union unless three requirements have been met: first, that a statement has been laid under section 5 of the Act; secondly, that the decision has been approved by Act of Parliament; and thirdly, that the referendum condition, the exemption condition or the significance condition has been met.

The 2011 Act provides that a decision under article 48(6) is not subject to a referendum if its provisions apply only to member states other than the United Kingdom, and that is the case here. The decision amending article 136 applies only to member states whose currency is the euro, and therefore not to the United Kingdom. It therefore falls within the exemption provided for in section 4(4)(b) of the Act. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary laid a statement before Parliament under section 5 on 13 October 2011 stating that in his opinion the decision amending article 136 fell within the exemption in section 4(4)(b) and therefore did not attract a referendum. To comply fully with the exemption condition, the Bill includes the provision in clause 1(3) stating that the decision does not fall within section 4 of the 2011 Act. I commend the clause to the Committee.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

I stand briefly to question my right hon. Friend the Minister—I, too, welcome him back to his post—on whether he believes that the European stability mechanism risks prolonging the agony of the eurozone crisis. Although we are not members of the ESM, is it drawing us in yet further and adversely affecting us as a result? The eurozone crisis was caused by excessive debt—that is well established; it was Governments borrowing beyond their means. Being built on debt, we all accept that we cannot borrow our way out of this problem and crisis, yet numerous summits have basically moved debt around the system and between banks or Governments and, quite rightly, the markets are getting tired of that.

I suggest to the Minister that the best solution to the problem is economic growth, and to grow our way out of the problem for the sake of all eurozone countries and the EU as a whole. Where are the measures to encourage greater competitiveness? Where are the supply-side reforms? They are simply not there. I therefore put it to the Minister that he should consider whether the ESM prolongs the agony and delays the inevitable, and whether our interests, as such, are being adversely affected by the position we are taking on this treaty change.

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[Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure, as ever, to debate with the Europe Minister.

As my right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor and I explained on Second Reading, we are in favour of the Bill and clause 1 specifically, which provides for article 136 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union to be amended to allow the eurozone to set up a bail-out fund—to be financed and operated by the eurozone—to support eurozone countries when they need it.

The permanent bail-out fund, whose establishment was agreed by EU leaders at the European Council in March 2011, will replace the two existing temporary funds. The Opposition have concerns on conditionality, which I will go into in some detail later, but we believe that the ESM will enhance the stability of the eurozone if it is used appropriately. Given that our economy is so closely connected to eurozone economies through both trade and the exposure of our banks, we believe it is in the UK’s national interest that the fund is allowed to be set up.

[Mr Lidington]

I rise to respond briefly to the points that have been made. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) for her support for clause 1 and I shall respond to the points to which the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane) alluded when we debate amendment 1.

I should tell the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) that the purpose of the ESM is not to provide an addition to structural and cohesion funds or any of the spending instruments to help with any problem, including Frontex, which rightly concerns him. The ESM is a way of providing a firewall or bail-out facility for a eurozone economy that might run into serious economic problems and have difficulty financing itself.

The direct answer to the right hon. Gentleman on the UK opinion is that we are not a member of the euro and have no intention of joining it, and therefore would not qualify for membership of the ESM. However, there are plenty of ways in which British Ministers and officials, both bilaterally with our fellow member states and at EU gatherings, can make constructive and informed suggestions and have good ideas. It is important that we acknowledge that the eurozone countries are potentially putting their taxpayers’ money on the line in the stability mechanism. Therefore, any suggestions that we might choose to make in future need to take account of that very important truth.

My hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) will forgive me if I do not follow him by giving a detailed analysis of the origins of the eurozone crisis. There are a number of different reasons behind it. In some countries, the problem is public sector debt, but in other stricken countries, the banking system is at the root of the difficulties.

However, I should take my hon. Friend up on his point about economic growth. He was right that the Bill is not the answer to Europe’s economic problems. I have said repeatedly—and, much more importantly, my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister, the Chancellor and the Foreign Secretary have said repeatedly—that the salvation for Europe must lie in its restoring competitiveness and economic growth, and above all in its becoming competitive in a world in which economic power and influence is shifting dramatically to Asia and Latin America. The inventiveness of European nations can stand them in good stead, but we need the right policies at both national and European level to restore competitiveness. I ask my hon. Friend to take note of the European Council commitments made in the March and May summits which, in terms, called for the further development of the single market, and in particular the creation of a single market for the digital economy, and for deregulation measures.

Last year, the Government achieved something of a breakthrough—a new precedent was set—in the European agreement to spare micro-businesses from future European regulations. We are taking that campaign forward with like-minded member states to get Europe collectively to address the burden and complexity of regulation imposed on businesses large and small at an EU level, just as we are committed to reducing the costs and complexity to business of regulation here in the UK.

--- Later in debate ---

[Emma Reynolds]

When EU leaders agreed to set up the permanent bail-out fund, the ESM, the intention was to introduce it earlier this year. Regrettably, the original date has been delayed owing to the constitutional issues mentioned by the hon. Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison), such as the court cases going on in Ireland and Germany. I agree with him to the extent that he raised some important issues about the EFSF and the EFSM on which I look forward to the Minister’s response. However, while it is important that those constitutional issues are ironed out, they should not in themselves delay the UK’s ratification of the treaty change. As the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) suggested, if each member state were to delay their ratification in order to wait for the ratification of the next member state, we would have a mass stalemate. Ultimately, that would produce an inertia that perhaps the supporters of the amendment would like to produce—but I will not make any judgment on that. I do not want to intrude on the private grief of Conservative Back Benchers and the Minister, but there seems to be a contradiction between saying on the one hand that the Government got a good deal while on the other arguing for a delay. I am sure that the Minister will tackle that.

On the ESM and more widely, it is regrettable that there have been several delays and that there has been a lack of political leadership and inertia and inaction at a European level which has served to deepen the eurozone crisis. As my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) set out, we believe that the stability of the eurozone is in the UK’s national interest and that the ESM will, if used appropriately, contribute to that stability. Any further delay, such as that proposed by the amendment, would act manifestly against that stability and our national interest. It is complacent to suggest that we should not ratify the Bill, so we oppose the amendment.

[Mr Lidington]

The purpose of the amendment, which was moved with characteristic courtesy and understanding of the issues by my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison), is to delay the coming into force of the Bill until the constitutional requirements of all EU member states have been complied with and all related legal challenges have been disposed of. I am grateful to him for saying that this a probing amendment, intended to examine various issues connected with the Bill, and that he does not intend to press it to a Division. I am happy to accept that his points are significant and worthy of debate.

It is the Government’s view that to accept the amendment and the consequent delay in the ratification of the change to article 136 would harm the interests of the United Kingdom. It would also not achieve the purpose lying behind the amendment. I will respond in detail to the points that my hon. Friend and others have made.

As my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and I both stated on Second Reading, the decision to amend article 136 is in the interests of the United Kingdom. It benefits the UK in two ways. First, the Prime Minister has secured agreement that once the decision enters into force and the ESM is established, no further commitments will be made under the European financial stabilisation mechanism, which is the mechanism under which the United Kingdom has contingent liability.

Secondly, the Bill and the creation of the ESM serve the interests of the United Kingdom because they will provide euro area member states with a permanent financial assistance mechanism to assist in their quest for stability. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has talked frequently about the need for the eurozone countries to put in place an effective and credible firewall. The creation of the ESM is a significant step by the eurozone countries in the direction that my right hon. Friend and this Government have been advocating. We therefore believe that it is in the interests of this country that this treaty change is ratified and the ESM set up as soon as possible.

[Mr Love]

Does the Minister also accept that it is to the benefit of this country that we seem to have a better, more partnership-type relationship with the rest of Europe, and that passing the Bill will assist in that process?

[Mr Lidington]

I think that is true. As I said in an intervention, I am by no means an uncritical admirer of everything that the European Union does or of every aspect of how it is constructed, but whatever the aspirations of any individual Member of this House with regard to the United Kingdom’s relationship with our nearest neighbours and most significant trading partners—the other members of the EU—we are more likely to achieve our national objectives if we conduct ourselves in a way that involves a grown-up appreciation that those other countries also have legitimate interests. If we ask them, rightly, to take account of our interests, it matters that, where we can, we respond sympathetically when they identify vital interests of their own as being at stake.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Clappison]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his careful answers to my questions. I am grateful to him for giving the figures confirming that the majority of the contingent liabilities that could have been allocated under the EFSM have indeed been allocated, and that we already have a significant liability. However, I do not think he has quite answered one of my questions—he may be coming to it. If the ESM is not ratified, or until it is ratified, could we be liable for new liabilities entered into under the EFSM out of the remaining unallocated portion? If so, would that come about as a result of qualified majority voting or would it require unanimity?

[Mr Lidington]

The legal position is that yes, that is possible, and it would be by qualified majority voting. That flows from the decision taken on the final day of the last Government’s time in office. It may be some reassurance to my hon. Friend, though, if I say that the EFSM has tended not to feature in the discussions over the past year. The discussion has been very much about the EFSF, which can draw on a much larger sum and can therefore command much more credibility with the markets.

I say to those of my hon. Friends, and Opposition Members, who have been extremely critical of the European Union, that I have found that there is an understanding in other member states, whether among Heads of Government, Finance Ministers or Europe Ministers, that the EFSM is a sensitive and delicate subject for the United Kingdom and particularly for the House. I do not get the impression that our European Union colleagues want to push us into a corner for the sake of it. What they hope for, and reasonably so, is our co-operation, not in sacrificing our vital interests but in helping them solve the existential financial and economic crisis that the single currency area faces.

[Mr Baron]

My right hon. Friend rightly referred to the fact that the ESM is much larger than its predecessor. Will he therefore address the questions that I put to him about the weakness of the fundamental design of the ESM? By agreeing to it, we are signing up to a system that has many flaws. Does he recognise those flaws, and if not, why not?

[Mr Lidington]

I think my hon. Friend is trying to draw me into writing my own blueprint for a permanent European stability mechanism. I will not be tempted on this occasion, because it would be pretty extraordinary if British Ministers were to start laying down the law in public about the design and scope of a mechanism to which we have chosen not to be a party and into which we do not propose to put a penny of our taxpayers’ money. We should not give such lectures to countries that have decided to put their taxpayers’ money on the line, because they will have to deal with any political reaction among their own electorates. As a democratic House, we need in this instance to respect the sovereign, democratic decisions of the eurozone member states.

[Mr Love]

rose—

[Wayne David]

rose—

[Mr Lidington]

I want to make progress.

There would be an irony to accepting the amendment. I will not use the type of language used by the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane), but it would be a bit odd if we passed an amendment that constrained the freedom of the House of Commons to ratify a treaty that the Government had agreed to. It would have the consequence of allowing the German constitutional court, the European Court of Justice or other courts to determine when our legislation, which we judge to be definitely in the interests of the UK, should come into force. I do not think that delaying this legislation would serve any purpose or help our national interests, and it may do some harm. I therefore hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere will be willing to withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Clappison]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. The point I was making is that in many respects we cannot, because they are above and beyond the control of our electorate. That has always been the problem with the European Union. Some in Europe sought to impose their project without bothering to take account of the views of the electorate. That problem lies at the heart of the matters we are discussing today and is one of the reasons we are afflicted by the eurozone. It is time people began to listen and reflect on what electorates have to say and on the lamentable economic consequences of the euro. However, as I indicated I would, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Lidington]

Clause 2 simply declares that the Bill extends to the whole of the United Kingdom and will come into force on the day on which it is passed, and gives its title.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

New Clause 1

Impact of the European Stability Mechanism on the UK

‘The Chancellor of the Exchequer shall make a report to Parliament within one year of the Act coming into force and annually thereafter setting out an assessment of the impact of the European Stability Mechanism on the risks to the interests and obligations of the United Kingdom from eurozone instability.’.—(Emma Reynolds.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Emma Reynolds]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

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[Geraint Davies]

The hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) has just given us a diatribe in support of laissez-faire economics and casting Britain adrift, and the idea that whatever happens in terms of the ESM will not have any impact on British trade and jobs, which it clearly will.

Like you, Mr Benton, I am a member of the Council of Europe, and we both take very seriously the issue of Europe and our economic, political and social relationships with it. The Welsh Affairs Committee recently visited Brussels to talk to Commissioners, MEPs and others about the prospects for Europe. As we all know, the big debate there, as here, is to do with the challenge of finding the right balance between encouraging growth and making cuts in order to get us back on track. There are very different views in Europe—as there are, of course, across the Committee—about the need to get growth on track, rather than to crush it through excessive austerity measures. The setting up of the ESM will be critical, as will the terms of reference and the details of how it operates.

As to the ESM providing targeted support for Greece and others, the latest debate in Europe is about the interest rate to be applied and the period over which it will be repaid. Those are the two crucial issues for Greece, alongside the question of where the money will be targeted. Instead of being directed towards paying down existing debt, if the money were targeted on solar forests in Greece to provide energy to sell to Europe, on a railway network that supported a more effective tourist industry or on providing universal broadband for Greece to link up to the world, that would provide tools for growth rather than a hammer to hit across the heads of the worst-affected Greek people.

The way in which the ESM operates, its terms of reference, how it impacts on ailing countries and their sovereign debt and its relationship with our country all have major implications for our national interest. I am amazed that those on the other side of the debate—they say they are eurosceptics, but perhaps they should be members of the UK Independence party—deny that there are any implications for our national and economic interests and the jobs of local people in having these proposed reports, and in ensuring they are not merely produced annually, but updated more often.

There is a big difference between what happened in the 1930s, when France, one of the possible locomotives of growth, did not take the opportunity to provide it and instead allowed soaring unemployment in Germany—the rest is history—and what happened in 2008, when we faced a potential depression and Obama and Brown put in place a fiscal stimulus to keep growth going. Recently, we been facing the prospect of a new winter of austerity, but people have at last woken up, and it has now been recognised that the ESM and the fiscal stimulus are about getting Europe back on track, and thereby also securing our own positive future and destiny.

I therefore make no apology for supporting these two modest new clauses, and I hope they will enjoy support across the Committee.

[Mr Lidington]

New clause 1 would require the Government to report annually to Parliament on the impact of the ESM on the UK economy. As the Committee will no doubt be aware by now, the Chancellor already reports regularly to Parliament on Britain’s economic performance through the Budget and the autumn statement. In addition, the Government regularly publish details on our financial relationships with the International Monetary Fund and the European Union and on our bilateral loan to Ireland. As my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) so brilliantly pointed out, placing an additional reporting burden on the UK Government in respect of information that will largely be in the public domain has no apparent gains and serves no purpose.

The other new clause proposes that the Government report on the impact of the ESM on the economic performance of the EU. I hope that Members would agree that it would not be appropriate for the UK to produce reports on the economic policy and performance of our European neighbours. I can guess what the reaction would be in this place if we were to hear about a debate in the Bundestag or the Greek Parliament about the economic policy of the UK; I can envisage the angry points of order, the protests to Mr Speaker, the early-day motions and the requests to invoke Standing Order No. 20.

The new clause is not needed. The Chancellor has regularly updated the House throughout this crisis, including on developments in the euro-area assistance programmes and on negotiations over the ESM. Furthermore, the Opposition have overlooked the fact that the Commission already annually produces a report on the borrowing and lending activities of the EU, including under the different financial assistance mechanisms. The Government, under the normal scrutiny system, produce an explanatory memorandum for Parliament that summarises the report. That is sent to the European Scrutiny Committee, which, as with any such memorandum, has the option to refer the report for debate. It is also within the remit of the Treasury Committee to launch an inquiry into it, or for the Backbench Business Committee to schedule a debate.

These new clauses would create an unnecessary and burdensome obligation, with no clear benefit. As my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) said, they would merely serve to tie up civil service resources in order to report on a mechanism that the UK is not even a part of, and has no intention whatever of joining.

An analogy with the Schengen agreement can be drawn. We are not a part of that, and the Government do not publish an annual report on it to Parliament. Of course, however, Home Office and Justice Ministers will answer questions and hold themselves to account if there are any important developments in that agreement that affect this country. In the event of there being any justice and home affairs measures into which the UK Government might choose to opt, the normal scrutiny system would apply, with the possibility of debates being held either in the ESC or on the Floor of the House.

The Bill is concerned only with approval of the decision amending article 136 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union, and not with the ESM. These new clauses are therefore wide of the mark. In fact, the only reason I can conceive of as to why Parliament might wish to accept such a reporting requirement is if we were planning to be part of the ESM, which, of course, would in turn mean we were planning to be part of the euro. The logic of the Opposition new clauses is that they still have in mind that prospect for this country.

Of course, as we know, the weasel words have already been employed. In this Bill’s Second Reading a week ago, the shadow Foreign Secretary, the right hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander), was challenged as to the prospect of the UK entering the euro, and he said there was no immediate prospect of that happening. We know, too, that when the Leader of the Opposition was pressed on this same matter, he said that whether or not the United Kingdom were to join the euro would be a matter of how long he were to remain as Prime Minister.

Not only did we hear from my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset a clear and devastating exposition of why the Opposition new clauses are completely otiose, but we can see in the Opposition’s decision to bring such new clauses before the Committee this evening some hint of the policy yearning which dare not speak its name: they still cherish that lingering dream of taking this country into the euro one day. The Committee should have nothing whatever to do with these new clauses, and we should reject them.

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Although the ECB policy has been adopted, there remains the prospect that it cannot be implemented without stringent austerity conditions because of the tie-in to the operation of the ESM. It is therefore imperative that the ESM remains under close scrutiny by our Government and by Members of this House and the other place. With more than 50% of our export trade going to the wider European Union, we are affected significantly by decisions taken on the ESM. For that reason, we believe that a routine annual process for monitoring developments in the EU economy is of great importance. We believe that new clause 3 would allow that to happen.

[Mr Lidington]

New clause 3 would require the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make a report to Parliament, within a year of the Act coming into force and annually thereafter, setting out an assessment of the impact of the ESM on the EU’s economic performance. To some extent that touches on issues similar to those we addressed when debating the Opposition’s previous two new clauses.

My argument to the Committee is that the requirement the Opposition are seeking to impose on the Government is simply unnecessary and otiose. The ESM treaty—the intergovernmental treaty among the 17 eurozone member states—requires the publication of annual accounts, so we fully expect information on the financial assistance that will be provided by the ESM to be made publicly available. That would be done in the same way that information on the use of the EFSF and its financial assistance programmes is currently made available on a public website. Furthermore, every EU member state is already required, as part of the assessment known as the European semester, to submit annually to the Commission a report on its own economic plans and performance. Therefore, the information that the Opposition are seeking will be in the public domain anyway.

We seem once again to have a proposal that would create an unnecessary reporting obligation and use civil service time in the UK on a mechanism of which the UK is not part. Parliament, through its Select Committees, the scrutiny system and the powers of the Backbench Business Committee, will continue to have plenty of opportunity to require Ministers to come to the House to be held to account for Europe’s economic performance and the United Kingdom’s place in shaping the EU’s economic policies. We do not need the new clause to give Parliament those powers. I hope that the Opposition, on reflection, will choose to withdraw the motion.

[Emma Reynolds]

The objective of new clause 3, as I have set out, is for the Government to monitor closely and assess the impact of the European stability mechanism on the wider economy of the European Union. Our economy is closely connected to the other 26 economies of the EU, with regard to both trade and, crucially, our banking sector. Our banks are heavily exposed to developments in the financial sectors of the other member states. It is therefore important that the Government allow the House to scrutinise the impact of the ESM, as well as their own decisions on the level of influence they choose to have on these discussions, even though we are not a member of the eurozone. It is not our policy that we should join the euro, just to clarify that for the Minister once more. Even though that remains the case, as a big member state in the European Union we should have a significant voice in all its developments, including the conditionality imposed on eurozone member states that seek support from the European stability mechanism.

Such matters may not be our primary responsibility as a non-eurozone member state, but we would nevertheless like the Government to be less isolated and to have more influence on the discussions about conditionality, because, as I set out earlier, we have reservations about the harsh austerity that is being imposed on Greece and other member states and that will probably be attached to support from this fund as well as previous mechanisms. It is for that reason that we tabled new clause 3. We believe that it is important that the Chancellor of the Exchequer monitors these developments closely and gives this House the opportunity to comment on and debate them.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Lidington]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

I want to begin, as is customary, by thanking those right hon. and hon. Members who have taken part in debates on the Bill. Even though it contained just two clauses, many Members have raised a number of interesting and controversial points about the context and impact of the European Council decision that the Bill seeks to approve. I am delighted that the Bill stimulated such parliamentary interest. It is difficult to single out any one Member—I apologise to any whom I do not mention—but I want to place on record my thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) and the European Scrutiny Committee. The whole House has benefited from his knowledge and his long held and principled approach to these matters. Although the Government do not always take the same view as he and his fellow Committee members on every point that they raise, the Committee has fulfilled its role commendably.

On the Opposition Front Bench, the right hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander) and the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) clearly articulated the Opposition’s position on a number of matters and indicated their support for the Bill, for which I am grateful.

My hon. Friends the Members for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice), for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), for Stroud (Neil Carmichael), for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison), for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless), for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) and for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) have all played a part in debates on the Bill. I value the intelligence and thoughtfulness that they have brought to those debates. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), who ably represented his party and powerfully made the case for the Bill from a perspective slightly different from that of some of my party colleagues.

I turn to Opposition Members. I thank the hon. Members for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann), for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) and for Caerphilly (Wayne David). I also thank the hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins), without whom no debate on these matters could be complete. I also put on the record my gratitude for the outstanding work done by officials, at both the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Treasury, in putting together this legislation.

As was set out on Second Reading, the purpose of the Bill is simple and straightforward. It provides solely for the parliamentary approval of an amendment to article 136 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union. That proposed treaty amendment makes it clear that eurozone member states may establish a financial assistance mechanism—the European stability mechanism, or ESM. In other words, it says that the eurozone can support fellow eurozone members in financial difficulty without contravening their obligations under the EU treaties.

Although article 136 applies only to member states whose currency is the euro, and therefore not to the United Kingdom, it is in our interests to ratify the European Council decision to amend it for two reasons. The first is that the ESM will play an important role, providing the eurozone with a permanent financial assistance mechanism to assist eurozone member states in financial difficulty. It will help eurozone countries work towards stability. Stability in the eurozone is crucial to our own stability in the UK. Although I accept all the points made in our debates about the measure not being a panacea and the European Union needing to do many things to make itself much more competitive and to stimulate economic growth in today’s rapidly changing global economy, the Government believe that the measure is one significant step towards helping stability in the eurozone, which will assist the United Kingdom’s economy.

Secondly, the passage of the treaty amendment will bring a direct benefit to the United Kingdom and our national interest. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister secured an important agreement alongside the treaty amendment. In future, the UK will not be liable through the EU budget for any future eurozone bail-outs under the EU budget once the ESM comes into force.

The treaty amendment was considered by Parliament before the Prime Minister agreed to the treaty amendment decision back in March 2011; at that time, we handled the decision under the provisions of the previous legislation, the European Union (Amendment) Act 2008. At the time, I committed to bring the decision before the House a second time, under the more stringent parliamentary scrutiny of what was then the European Union Bill and is now the European Union Act 2011.

The Bill has been introduced to gain parliamentary approval to enable the UK to complete its ratification process for the treaty amendment through primary legislation, which enables Members of both Houses to debate in detail the implications of the treaty amendment in a way that was not possible under the 2008 legislation, which made provision only for a time-limited debate on a motion before each House.

The treaty amendment is due to enter into force on 1 January 2013, subject to ratification by all member states. Parliament’s approval of the Bill will take us one step closer to ensuring that that happens. It is important that we do not put any artificial obstacles in the way of that happening.

Members have examined and challenged both the brief content of the Bill and the wider impact of agreeing to the treaty amendment decision, as was our intention when we introduced the European Union Act 2011. Although we have heard a broad range of views on the rights and wrongs of the eurozone, on the EU and on the UK’s place in Europe, one thing that has found general agreement on both sides of the House is that approving this Bill makes sense. Agreeing to the treaty amendment is in our best interests because it will extinguish our future exposure to liabilities under the European financial stability mechanism. For those reasons, I hope that the House will give the Bill a Third Reading this evening.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Lidington Excerpts

Tuesday 4th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

4. What recent assessment he has made of the situation in the Eurozone; and if he will make a statement.

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

It is in the interests of the United Kingdom and the global economy for the eurozone countries to take action to restore public finances, strengthen the banking system and improve competitiveness.

[Harriett Baldwin]

Fortunately, under this Government the United Kingdom will never be part of the eurozone, but the economic crisis is nevertheless having a dampening effect on UK economic growth. What strategy is the Foreign Office adopting to persuade the eurozone leaders to stop kicking the can down the road and find some solutions that will help the UK economy?

[Mr Lidington]

We are certainly continuing to support the efforts that eurozone Governments are taking to make their currency zone more stable and sustainable than it is at present, but we are also continuing to emphasise at every EU meeting that Europe’s competitiveness depends in the end on deepening the single market, improving free trade with the rest of the world, and cutting red tape and regulatory burdens on business.

[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

I am one of those who happen to believe that the eurozone is not long for this world. Is the Foreign Office looking seriously at what Europe might look like after the eurozone, and is it not possible that international relations within Europe will be improved once the tensions of the eurozone are gone?

[Mr Lidington]

We make all sorts of contingency plans for all sorts of contingencies, as the hon. Gentleman would expect, but I say this to him: while I believe the United Kingdom is much better off outside the eurozone, those 17 countries have taken democratic sovereign-national decisions to form this currency union, and we who support national independence and the right of nations to determine their own futures should respect those decisions.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Is it not the role of Government to say what would be best for the whole of Europe, and is not what would be best for the whole of Europe an orderly break-up of the euro?

[Mr Lidington]

The best thing for the future of Europe would be for Europe to start to get to grips with the shift in global economic power to Asia and Latin America that is taking place as we speak, and to focus on making it easier for European businesses to compete through enlarging and deepening the single market, through encouraging free trade with other parts of the world and through cutting the red tape that holds European businesses back compared with those in Asia and south America.

[Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)]

I remind Government Members that it was the previous Labour Government who kept this country out of the euro. There has been recent speculation in the German press that the German Chancellor will push for a new treaty to create closer fiscal and political union in the eurozone. What is the position of the Government on this proposal, and what discussions have the Minister and his colleagues had with their German counterparts about this proposal?

[Mr Lidington]

There are all sorts of exciting media reports, but there are no proposals for treaty change on the table at present. I simply remind the hon. Lady, however, that while the Government parties have supported giving the British people the final say over any proposal from any Government to join the euro, her party leader has said that securing the objective of Britain joining the euro will require only his remaining as Prime Minister for long enough.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

5. What recent assessment he has made of the potential threat to stability in the middle east of Iran’s nuclear programme.

European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [Lords]

David Lidington Excerpts

Monday 3rd September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Cash]

My hon. Friend and others have pursued that relentlessly and still have no real answers. The truth of the matter is that a number of things were done at or around that time that many people now rather regret—let us put it that way. The fact that the EFSM is now described as “not needed” is disingenuous because people know perfectly well that it was illegal. That is not just my opinion—I make this comment to the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood)—but the one reached by members of the European Scrutiny Committee as a whole in the light of what we heard.

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

May I make a plea to my hon. Friend and to my hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless)? It is one thing to criticise Ministers or Government policy on the European Union, but will they please not direct criticism directly at named officials, who serve Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrat Ministers loyally and to the best of their ability in the impartial tradition of the British civil service?

[Mr Cash]

I am delighted that my right hon. Friend makes that point and I endorse it as a general principle, but instances occur periodically that require a certain amount of investigation and analysis. I did not entirely endorse the remarks made by my hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless) in as many words, but I agree with him—and with others—that, at the time in question, decisions were taken that people now regret. I am glad that we have moved on from article 122 to the present European stability mechanism.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

I start by thanking all right hon. and hon. Members who have taken part in the debate. To the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) I say that I will be happy to send her a copy of an article that I published in The Sun on Sunday earlier this year, which set out in good, plain English the case that I have consistently made for a constructive, critical and engaged approach by the United Kingdom in the European Union.

As several hon. Members have said—especially my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg)—it is important to note that we are debating this initiative to change the European Union treaties in the context of a debate on primary legislation. In an earlier intervention, my hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless) questioned whether the European Union Act 2011 had made any difference. He was correct to state that in the case of treaty changes that were agreed before 2008, treaty amendments could be approved here only through primary legislation, but in 2008 the law was changed. At the same time as the Lisbon treaty was being taken through by the then Government, they provided in section 6(1)(a) of the European Union (Amendment) Act 2008 that all that would be needed henceforward to approve the use of the simplified revision procedure would be for each House of Parliament to approve a Government motion without amendment.

As my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset pointed out with characteristic acuity, there is a considerable difference between the kind of detailed examination and debate that takes place on the Floor of the House during the various stages of proceedings on primary legislation and the brief 90-minute or two-hour debate on a motion tabled under the provisions of the 2008 legislation. I would hope that my right hon. and hon. Friends, whatever our differences on one or two other matters to do with the EU, would acknowledge that the 2011 Act has made an important and significant difference in restoring the central role of Parliament and, in particular, the Chamber of the House of Commons, as the place where things as important and significant as European treaty amendments can be considered in full. The disgrace is that the 2008 legislation sought to take those powers away from Parliament in the first place.

Before moving to the content of the Bill, I want briefly to respond to some of the points made by hon. Members during the debate. I turn first, of course, to my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash). The hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East said that she had returned from the summer break feeling invigorated and ready for the European fray once again. I have descended from the mountains of Snowdonia full of enthusiasm and relish to debate with my hon. Friend once again. I agreed with a fair measure of his analysis, and I think that most of those who contributed to this debate, from whatever party, agreed that the euro was created without sufficient thought being given to ensuring the stability of the single currency area, given that there was not the degree of fiscal, economic and political integration normally expected in a currency area.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stone warned in stark terms that the current eurozone crisis contained not only profound economic risks but significant—he would probably say dangerous—political challenges, and he has been consistent in arguing those points. I am one of those survivors on the Government Benches who has vivid memories of his contributions at 5 o’clock in the morning during proceedings on the Maastricht legislation in 1992-93. I agree that the crisis facing the euro presents the eurozone countries with important political as well as economic challenges. If it is agreed to centralise or co-ordinate decisions on some of the fundamentals of economic policy, it also has to be decided how those decisions, which are so important to the citizens of the countries concerned, are to be made democratically accountable. There is, then, a political, as well as an economic challenge, for our friends and neighbours in the eurozone.

It would be foolish, however, for British politicians to assume that the leaders and voters in other EU member states will necessarily respond to those political challenges in the same way as the UK electorate might be expected to do. Each European country has its own historical experience and economic and geographical particularities to take into account.

Let me take, for example, the conversations I had with members of the Governments of the three Baltic republics during my visits there. One of the things that they were keen to make clear to me was that although they certainly valued and cherished their hard won independence—the reclamation of their freedom—they also saw the integration of the European Union not as a threat, but as a way to entrench their European and democratic identity, so that never again could they be pulled back towards an eastern alignment or towards Russian influence, which they still feared, for understandable historical reasons.

Let us take Germany, which is a very different case. Where I parted company with my hon. Friend the Member for Stone was when he spoke of Germany. I do not think it was his intention, but some of the phrases he used came across in such a way as to present Germany as somehow having sinister intentions towards the rest of Europe. However, whenever one speaks to German politicians, from whichever political party they come, what one finds striking is that they see support for European integration as a means of providing reassurance to their neighbours that Germany is not going to go off on some nationalist course again; that France, the Netherlands and other countries that were occupied by Germany in the mid-20th century would see Germany’s commitment to European institutions and European methods of governance as a reassurance to them, not a threat.

[Mr Cash]

If I may make just a short observation about my right hon. Friend’s remarks, it is, fundamentally, that in my judgment Germany is very concerned about government by rule, whereas we in the United Kingdom are much more concerned about government by consent. The fundamental problem is one of democracy, as illustrated by the fact that about 99% of the Bundestag agreed to all the arrangements, yet we know from opinion polls what percentage of the German people take a different view. It is that dichotomy which causes concern, and there are other factors in relation to Angela Merkel’s agenda.

[Mr Lidington]

I do not want to get drawn into a detailed debate about a comparative political analysis between the British and German approaches. Let me say briefly to my hon. Friend, first, that when Germany looks at her history, she has good reasons for looking to firm rules and strong institutions, such as the constitutional court. Secondly, it is not completely unknown for the House of Commons to vote by a large majority in favour of something that every opinion poll tells it the majority of the British public opposes, so I do not think we should get too hung up on there being some vast difference in democratic interpretation between the two nations.

[Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

Can my right hon. Friend explain to me and the House what exactly senior Ministers mean when they talk about the remorseless logic of fiscal integration? Do they mean that it will lead inevitably to political integration, and if they do, is it no longer the case that we regard the emergence of a single power on the continent of Europe as fundamentally not in the UK’s national interest?

[Mr Lidington]

What it means is that we accept that, as Conservative politicians have argued since the euro was created, for a single currency zone to operate successfully over a number of different national economies there would need to be a measure of fiscal and economic integration, so that those economic differences can be managed successfully and in a stable fashion in that currency union. It is for the countries of the eurozone to work out exactly which economic and political measures will be right for their particular circumstances.

[George Eustice]

The Minister makes an important point about the remorseless logic. Does he not agree that one of the big problems with the way in which the European Union has developed is that it tends to introduce half-baked ideas, knowing full well that it will have to come back, several years down the line, with further measures that will mean further integration? Does he agree that we need to break that logic in some way and do what people really want, rather than creating a crisis that fuels more integration, which nobody wants?

[Mr Lidington]

Ultimately, it has to be for the electorate in each country to decide on the extent to which they want to take part in integration. My experience over the past two years of talking to Government leaders and other politicians in the other 26 countries, as well as following—as far as one can—the movement of opinion among the public in those countries, tells me that there is a greater level of support or toleration for Europe’s political and economic integration than there tends to be in the UK. I am generalising, of course, and there are significant differences among the 26 countries, but the historical experience of the United Kingdom in the 20th century differs from that of much of continental Europe, which helps to explain the difference in political attitudes towards European integration.

Various hon. Friends have raised a number of points during the debate, to which I wish to respond. My hon. Friends the Members for Stone and for Rochester and Strood both asked why the measure that we are debating today should be exempt from the requirement in the European Union Act 2011 for a referendum. The Act requires a referendum to be held when European Union treaties are changed in such a way as to create a transfer of competence or power from the United Kingdom to the European Union. The plain fact is that, as my hon. Friends the Members for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) and for North East Somerset pointed out, this measure does not transfer any such power or competence from this country to the institutions of the European Union. It does not even apply to the United Kingdom.

The amendment that we are debating is an amendment to article 136 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union, which is the first article under chapter 4 of that treaty. That chapter is entitled “Provisions specific to Member States whose currency is the euro”. So, in that important legal treaty sense, this measure does not apply to the United Kingdom, although our ratification is needed to bring it into effect. Because it does not apply to us and does not transfer power or competence, there is no requirement for a referendum.

[Mr Cash]

rose—

[Mark Reckless]

rose—

[Mr Lidington]

My two hon. Friends have made other related comments, to which I would like to reply first. If they then wish to intervene on me, I will give way.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stone and the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane) said that the referendum pledge in the 2011 Act was meaningless because my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary could, in effect, decide on a whim whether a referendum was needed or not. They made reference to the requirement in the Act for the Secretary of State to make and publish a decision on whether a referendum was required. Those fears are wide of the mark, however. The Secretary of State is not permitted to act on a whim; he has to act in accordance with the law, and it is the 2011 Act that sets out in some detail precisely when a referendum is required. In making the statement to Parliament, the Secretary of State must say whether the referendum is or is not required under the terms of the Act.

My hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Strood, in asking why no referendum was required in this case, pointed to what he saw as a contradiction in the Government’s approach. I need to divide my response to him into two parts. Paragraph 3 of the recitals or preamble to the decision of 25 March 2011 formally recalls the previous decision by the European Council that article 122(2) would no longer be needed and “should not be used”. The text of the decision comes after paragraph 6 of the recitals and is introduced by the words “has adopted this decision:”. The text of the amendment to the treaties is what is being ratified by this Bill. So the 2011 Act bites on the amendment to the treaties, which is the narrow addition to article 136 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union. This measure would attract a referendum if it included one or more of the elements listed in sections 4(1) to 4(3) of the 2011 Act. Those subsections, which provide quite a long list, define what we mean by a transfer of competence or powers. This treaty amendment does not include any of those elements that require a referendum, so we do not require a referendum in this case.

[Mr Cash]

I appreciate that my right hon. Friend is in a labyrinth and that it will take more than the minotaur to get him out of it. The problem is that, as the Bill’s explanatory notes clearly state, the exemption condition, which is what we are talking about,

“is met if the Act”—

the Bill, as enacted—

“providing for the approval of the decision states that the decision does not fall within section 4 of the Act.”

The bottom line is that the Government’s ultimate defence that they have got the process right is that under the Act the very decision that is taken is endorsed by Parliament when it passes the Bill; it is not about whether or not the provisions have been complied with. Clause 1(3) states that the

“decision does not fall within section 4 of the European Union Act 2011”.

In other words, we are being told, “Do not argue with me Back Benchers, because in this Act, when it goes through, that is final.” That is the bottom line of this provision.

[Mr Lidington]

That part of the Bill is included because it is a requirement of the 2011 Act that we bring this to Parliament to ask it to ratify formally the Government’s judgment as to whether or not a referendum is required. However, that judgment by the Government—that opinion embodied in the statement by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary—followed a very careful analysis of the treaty amendment in the light of the provisions of the 2011 Act. Obviously I regret bitterly that I have clearly been unsuccessful in playing the role of Ariadne to guide my hon. Friend out of a labyrinth, but I somewhat suspect that he is not that keen to extract himself from it. The one thing he has not challenged me on is whether the treaty amendment contains any of the transfers of power or competence to the European Union from the United Kingdom specified in sections 4(1) to 4(3) of the 2011 Act. I am sure that we will have the delightful opportunity of pursuing those points further in Committee.

[Mark Reckless]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Lidington]

I will give way once more, but I do not want to pre-empt our discussions in Committee.

[Mark Reckless]

My concern is that in the statement provided to the House under section 5, the ministerial team has relied on section 4(4)(b), which states that a referendum will not happen when a treaty or article 48(6) decision applies only to member states other than the United Kingdom. The whole debate has relied on recitals from within that article 48(6) decision, saying that the provision gets us out of article 122 and that we will not have to contribute to further bail-outs. Surely the Government cannot have it both ways.

[Mr Lidington]

My hon. Friend is eliding two things. We have before us and are seeking to ratify through this Bill a treaty amendment. It relates to article 136, which applies only to those countries whose currency is the euro. Therefore, by definition, unless the United Kingdom were to join the euro, which would in itself require a referendum under the 2011 Act, it cannot apply to us. Alongside that treaty amendment, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister successfully, and after a lot of hard work, negotiated agreement from all Heads of State and Government in the European Union that when the ESM comes into force, any future liabilities of the United Kingdom to bail out eurozone countries under the EFSM will be extinguished. That is a very significant gain for the British national interest and I hope that on reflection my hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Strood will recognise it as such.

As I have said, in return for agreeing this treaty amendment, the Prime Minister secured agreement at the European Council that once the ESM is set up, article 122(2) of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union should no longer be used to safeguard the stability of the euro area as a whole. Our liability for future euro area financial assistance programmes under the EU budget will be removed and that is directly in the UK’s national interest. As my hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice) said, this gain for our interests should be considered as proportionate to the scope of the treaty change that we are considering, which is narrow and specific in what it seeks to achieve. We should also not ignore the fact that the ESM will provide the euro area with a permanent financial assistance mechanism to assist euro area member states in financial difficulty. We all share the enormous concern over the ongoing crisis in the eurozone and the chilling effect that it is having on our economy.

A stable eurozone is in the interests of the United Kingdom. We rely on those 17 countries for more than 40% of our trade, but that is only part of the picture. Confidence and stability in the eurozone are in our national interests and the resolution of the debt crisis in the eurozone would be the biggest single boost to business confidence that could happen in the British economy. That is precisely why the eurozone countries say that they need the ESM and why it is important to ensure, through all 27 member states ratifying the treaty amendment, that there is no room for doubt about that amendment’s and therefore the ESM’s compatibility with the European Union treaties.

We are not in the euro and the United Kingdom will not take part in the ESM, but it would harm our interests to stand in the way of the eurozone’s efforts to set it up and help sort out this crisis, a point made very strongly by my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud. No one is under any illusion that the European stability mechanism will be some silver bullet that will solve the eurozone’s problems overnight, but it is a step in the right direction.

When the right hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander), the shadow Foreign Secretary, spoke, he treated us to a lecture about the alleged failures of the Government’s economic policy. No Minister would stand at the Dispatch Box and say anything other than that the United Kingdom’s economic problems are deep seated and that they have been aggravated by the crisis in the eurozone, but what surprised me—perhaps I am insufficiently cynical—was the fact that there was not one word of regret from the right hon. Gentleman, let alone a morsel of contrition, for the contribution made by his Government to the economic woes from which the United Kingdom now suffers.

Some European comparisons are really quite interesting in this context. A number of hon. Members commented on the fact that some European Union countries have been more successful in recent years than the United Kingdom or the majority of EU member states have been, but it is telling to consider the contrast. Germany was paying down its debts when the Labour party was piling up the deficit here and maxing out the United Kingdom’s credit card. In the 10 years from 1997, Germany had annual growth in industrial production of 3% or more a year, while average growth in the United Kingdom over that period struggled to get above 0.2% annually. In the first decade of the 21st century, Germany maintained its share of world exports while the United Kingdom’s share almost halved thanks to the disastrous economic stewardship of the right hon. Gentleman and the Labour party.

The European Union, including the United Kingdom, needs a relentless focus on competitiveness and growth through deepening the European single market; building a single market in the digital economy, energy and services; cutting the costs of European regulation on businesses, especially small enterprises; and agreeing more free trade deals with Canada, Singapore, Japan, the United States of America and other regions of the world.

The legislation before us is one step forward, but it is only part of the strategy for renewing economic growth and competitiveness in the United Kingdom and in Europe as a whole. The Government will continue to pursue that strategy with vigour, energy and determination.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time.

European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [Lords] (Programme)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),

That the following provisions shall apply to the European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [Lords]:

Committal

1. The Bill shall be committed to a Committee of the whole House.

Proceedings in Committee, on Consideration and Third Reading

2. Proceedings in Committee, any proceedings on Consideration and proceedings on Third Reading shall be taken in two days in accordance with the following provisions of this Order.

3. Proceedings in Committee and any proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the second day.

4. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on that day.

Programming committee

5. Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings in Committee of the whole House, to any proceedings on consideration or to proceedings on Third Reading.

Other proceedings

6. Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings on consideration of any message from the Lords) may be programmed.—(James Duddridge.)

Question agreed to.

Court of Justice of the European Union

David Lidington Excerpts

Thursday 12th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

I beg to move,

That this House takes note of the draft Regulation 2011/0901A(COD) of the European Parliament and of the Council (amending the Protocol on the Statute of the Court of Justice of the European Union and Annex 1 thereto) and draft Regulation 2011/0902(COD) (relating to temporary Judges of the European Union Civil Service Tribunal) and, in accordance with section 10 of the European Union Act 2011, approves Her Majesty’s Government’s intention to support the adoption of draft Regulations 2011/0901A(COD) and 2011/0902(COD) of the European Parliament and of the Council.

The debate covers two draft regulations that reform the Court of Justice of the European Union with the aim of improving its efficiency. The European Scrutiny Committee has described the two regulations as

“a modest but useful package of reforms”,

and the Government endorse that verdict.

This is also the first time that the House has had the opportunity to debate such draft regulations under the new provisions of section 10(1)(d) and 10(1)(e) of the European Union Act 2011. Section 10 covers a small number of articles in the European Union treaties, and its provisions require each House of Parliament to approve a motion on the draft measure concerned before the Government are able, on behalf of the United Kingdom, to vote in support of the measure in Brussels.

As hon. Members on both sides will know, the role of the European Court of Justice is to ensure that European Union law is observed. It is a key role, and it is only right and proper that Parliament should oversee the Government’s approach to any reforms to that important European institution.

[Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that implicit in what he says is the rule of European Union law, but is he also aware that the European Scrutiny Committee, in its report on the recent fiscal compact, made it clear that it did not regard European Union law as having been fulfilled, and that the Government themselves still retain their own position of reserving their views on the legality of the compact? What are the Government doing about that?

[Mr Lidington]

I know, not least from my own 90-minute evidence session in front of my hon. Friend’s Committee, how strongly he and other members of the Committee feel about that subject. However, it would be moving beyond the terms of this afternoon’s debate if I responded in detail about the Government’s approach to fiscal union and their decision to reserve their position on the use of the institutions for the implementation of the fiscal compact. Ministers have corresponded about that with the Committee and I am sure that there will be other opportunities for us to go into that matter.

[Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con)]

Does that not go to the root of the matter? We are told that the regulation is justified by the growth in the work load of the European Court of Justice. Assuming that there has been no change in the litigiousness of members of the European Union, and taking into account EU expansion as well, should we not be given pause for thought that it is the increasing jurisdiction of the ECJ over member countries that lies behind the issue? It is highly material that we should look at the prospective growth of that jurisdiction through the expansion to which my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) referred.

[Mr Lidington]

It is true that every time the competence of the European institutions is enlarged through treaty amendments, the potential case load of the European Court of Justice is also enlarged. However, as I shall come to demonstrate, the reason for these particular reforms is largely to do with an increase in the case load as a result of litigation by private parties, particularly on single market matters. The case load that the reforms are intended to address certainly does not arise out of the negotiation of the fiscal compact by 25 member states last year.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

rose—

[Mr Lidington]

I will give way to my hon. Friend, and then I shall make progress.

[Mr Nuttall]

My right hon. Friend makes a good point in saying that the ECJ’s increasing work load is often owing to disputes between private organisations. In the past, those disputes would often have been resolved here in London, as a result of contracts providing for the determination to be under English law. Therefore is not the work of European judges replacing the work of British judges?

[Mr Lidington]

Under successive Governments, the United Kingdom has supported the principle that we should be part of a single European market with a set of common regulations and legal provisions, because Conservative and Labour Governments alike, and now the coalition Government, have taken the view, backed by British industry for the overwhelming part, that that is to the economic advantage of British businesses—both manufacturers and service providers—the United Kingdom economy and the prosperity of our people.

Let us look at the justification for the package of measures before us. The House of Lords European Union Committee set out in its report of March 2011 how the work load of the Court had increased substantially in recent years. Between 2007 and 2011, new cases at the European Court of Justice increased by 18%. In paragraph 44 of its report, the Committee noted that

“We believe that the expansion of the CJ’s jurisdiction into the Area of Freedom, Security and Justice introduced by the Lisbon Treaty, coupled with the increase of EU membership to 27 States, will have an impact on the CJ’s ability to manage its workload. We predict another crisis of workload soon.”

What has also happened is that the number of cases going to the ECJ on appeal has increased significantly in recent years. For example, in 2008 just seven cases relating to competition law went on appeal to the ECJ; in 2011, the total had risen to 52 such cases. Given the Court’s key role as the arbiter of the single market and the advantage that the United Kingdom’s business community derives from the single market, dealing with the problem of delays and the overload of the Court is in the United Kingdom’s national interest.

[Mr Clappison]

rose—

[Mr Lidington]

I will give way once more and then I will move on to the details of the reforms.

[Mr Clappison]

My right hon. Friend has been generous in giving way. He made the same point—that the Court was of benefit to British businesses because of the enforcement of the single market—in the memorandum supplied to the European Scrutiny Committee. However, in my researches I have not been able to find any such case involving a British company, although there may be such cases.

Will my right hon. Friend write to me giving chapter and verse of cases involving British companies that have involved the European Court of Justice and the single market? There is the suspicion that the European Court of Justice, as with many other things to do with the European Union, is using the single market as a justification for its intrusion into decision making in areas that have nothing to do with the single market.

[Mr Lidington]

I will happily write to my hon. Friend, but I point out to him that just because a case does not involve a British company as one of the parties does not mean that the case is insignificant to British business interests. There might well be a case involving parties from other member states the outcome of which made a considerable difference to the opportunities available to United Kingdom companies.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

The Minister is making a powerful case that the interests of UK business are best served when we have an efficient and properly resourced system of law. There is also the fact that many of the judgments have been delayed, which is to the great detriment of British interests as far as business is concerned.

[Mr Lidington]

We can debate, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison) does so robustly, whether the European Court of Justice should enjoy such widespread jurisdiction. However, what we are talking about is how we should address the problems in the system as it currently exists under treaty—the backlogs and delays, both at first instance and appeal. A system of courts in which justice is denied simply because the system is unable to cope with its work load is not in anybody’s interests.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

Will the Minister give way on that very point?

[Mr Lidington]

Of course I will give way to my hon. Friend, although I will be anxious to make progress thereafter.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

My right hon. Friend is exceptionally generous, as usual. However, I am not entirely sure that his last point is right. It could be in people’s interests for the Court to be bunged up. If one takes the view that the European Court of Justice is increasingly extending its powers into areas where it ought not interfere, anything that stops it doing that is all to the good.

[Mr Lidington]

A court of law and legal system should serve the interests of parties to that legal system. I go back to the old English adage that justice delayed is justice denied; my hon. Friend will be familiar with that and no doubt champion it as a matter of principle. I would argue that that principle should apply on a European level as well as on a United Kingdom or English level.

The reforms that we are discussing involve, first, the creation of a vice-president to assist the president of the Court in their role of managing litigation and overseeing the business of the Court. The vice-president will be appointed from among existing judges; an additional judge will not be required.

Secondly, there is to be an increase in the number of judges sitting in the Grand Chamber of the European Court of Justice, which generally handles the most sensitive cases. That is to allow broader participation by ECJ judges in general in Grand Chamber cases. It should increase the wider expertise of the Court and ensure greater consistency in how cases are handled. Thirdly, the reforms propose a reduction in the number of presidents of five-judge chambers who have to sit in the Grand Chamber at the same time. That will allow the chamber presidents more time to administer their separate chambers, each of which handles a substantial case load that should, as a consequence of this reform, be enabled to progress more quickly.

The reforms also include the power to appoint up to three temporary judges to the civil service tribunal, which is the employment tribunal for European Union officials. The problem with the tribunal at the moment is that it has only seven judges, which means that if even one judge is absent for a lengthy period, perhaps because of illness, cases can be delayed. Appointing temporary judges will prevent those delays from occurring. The temporary judges will be appointed from a panel of former judges of the European Court and will be paid only for the days that they actually work; they will not be on a long-term retainer or salary.

Finally, there is a key reform to the lower court, the General Court, which has a substantial backlog of cases. As is proposed for the ECJ—the upper tier—a vice-president will be created for the General Court, again from among the existing judges, to assist the president in managing litigation.

The Government have been active in negotiating the details of these reforms, and I am glad to say that because of our efforts two potential reforms about which we had concerns that we explained to the European Scrutiny Committee have now been removed. One of those was the proposal to remove the 10-day so-called period of grace granted to litigants to submit pleadings to the ECJ over and above the standard deadline period. We and other member states argued that removing the period of grace would harm our ability to submit pleadings and damage our national interest. We have protected the period of grace and ensured that not only the Government but, importantly, British businesses that may be party to ECJ cases have the maximum possible time to submit pleadings to the Court.

The other potential reform was the addition of 12 judges at the General Court. The Council has concluded that that reform requires further consideration and should be reserved for a later date. The rationale for the proposal was, again, the substantial backlog of cases—currently more than 1,300—at the General Court. It was also, in our view, very important that the reform was got right. We wanted to ensure that the arrangements for appointing any new judges are fit for purpose and that any increase in the number of judges should be consistent with the requirement for minimal spending in the current economic climate. We argued that any increase in the number of judges should go hand in hand with a programme of efficiency savings in the ECJ’s budget. The removal of the reform from the package at this stage is in line with our interests, but we may return to it at a future date.

[Roger Williams]

Was there a suggestion that specialist chambers be set up to deal with particular issues? Has the case for that not yet been made?

[Mr Lidington]

The idea of specialist chambers is indeed another proposal that came up in the course of negotiations.

All member states have now accepted that there will need to be further consideration of what could be done further to improve the efficiency of the Court in the longer term. A new group has been set up among officials representing the 27 member states to discuss and recommend potential reforms and, in particular, to address the backlog at the General Court. The group’s remit will include an examination of the potential increase in the number of judges and the way in which such judges might be appointed. I can assure Members that the Government will be an active participant in the group, and we shall argue that any reforms should be based soundly on concrete evidence. We will also finalise our policy on the appointment of any additional judges in the context of the broader discussion about the search for efficiency and reduced spending in the ECJ and in European Union institutions as a whole. It goes without saying that the Government will ensure that the House and, in particular, the Chairman and members of the European Scrutiny Committee, are kept briefed on developments.

At present, the reforms on the table are modest, but they support the Government’s objectives of trying to increase the efficiency of the European Court of Justice and pave the way for more significant reforms to the General Court at a later stage. On that basis, I commend the motion to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Lidington]

I thank the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) and my hon. Friends the Members for Stone (Mr Cash) and for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) for their contributions. Let me seek to respond briefly to the various points and questions that have been raised. I will try to divide my response into four parts.

Let me deal first with costs, which my hon. Friend the Member for Stone spoke of. The measures in the two draft regulations will be accommodated within the European Court of Justice’s existing budget. The additional costs will be no more than de minimis. As I said earlier, the two vice-presidents will be existing judges; no additional individuals will be appointed to those posts. The extra judges who will be available to provide sickness cover in the civil service tribunal will be paid only for the days when they are required to be on duty and sitting.

My next point relates to powers. It is obviously tempting to go beyond the terms of the motion and the draft regulations and have a more general debate about the powers of the European Court of Justice. My hon. Friends the Members for Stone and for North East Somerset spoke with passion about their concerns over the way in which the powers of the ECJ and the scope of the Court’s jurisdiction had been enlarged over recent decades. The trouble is that such a debate would take us on to broader questions about the development of the European Union that do not fall within the scope of the motion.

I suggest to my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset that there are certain remedies that he might propose. For example, other hon. Friends advocate changes to the treaties of the European Union, and such changes could seek to impose the kind of constraints that he has in mind. I do not mind saying clearly that, as far as I am concerned, we would all benefit, nationally and in every part of the European Union, from less legislation. We would benefit if there were no culture in institutions, either national or European, to seek a remedy for any ill or injustice through additional laws and regulations, rather than seeking an effective non-legislative remedy.

I say to my hon. Friend that it would not be right to question the quality of the individuals who serve in the European Court of Justice. As he will know, the treaty and the rules of appointment require that they should be men or women who have served, or who are capable of serving, in senior judicial roles in their member states. Certainly, the men or women who might be nominated as the United Kingdom’s judges at the European Court of Justice are required to have achieved a very high reputation indeed in the judicial and legal professions in this country even to be considered, let alone nominated. Whether we agree or disagree—as individuals or as Governments—with particular judgments of the ECJ, the judges are people of high professional standing.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I would question the judges’ probity on one thing in particular: their ruling that their own pay should be increased, which was fundamentally improper.

[Mr Lidington]

My hon. Friend has made his point clearly for the record.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stone asked about the risk of further efforts to enhance the powers and the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. He referred in particular to the possibility of the introduction of a right to petition the Court and take cases there. I can assure him that, notwithstanding what learned professors might say, no such proposal is on the table at the moment. No such proposal forms part of the regulations before us. The subject has not crossed my desk and it is not a matter of live discussion among Governments at present.

My hon. Friend also asked about the timing of the debate and expressed concern at what he believed to be an absence of time for the European Scrutiny Committee to consider this matter. I would challenge him on that. Looking back at the record, I see that we provided explanatory memorandums to that Committee at various times during the course of the negotiations: first, on 28 April 2011, then on 24 June 2011, 30 September 2011 and 20 April this year. I wrote to him last week to advise him of the latest developments and to request that the Committee clear these measures from scrutiny.

As for the most recent developments, we are working against the decision by the Cypriot presidency to table these measures for discussion and decision at a Council meeting in the very near future. My concern in writing to my hon. Friend as I did was to ensure that his Committee was aware of the need for urgency if the Committee and Parliament were to have the opportunity to express their views and, in the case of Parliament, to take a decision about the UK’s approach to these regulations ahead of that Council meeting.

The final point on which I was questioned—

[Mr Cash]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Lidington]

All right, I will, but then I will move on.

[Mr Cash]

My hon. Friend should not show his impatience; that is not a wise thing to show to the Chairman of the European Scrutiny Committee. I think that his demeanour should be a little more relaxed.

Let me say simply that I have put a number of questions to the Minister and I can see that he is not going to answer them, so I should be grateful if he wrote to me when he has had a chance to look at the transcript of the debate. As it happens—I do not say this with any stricture—he was talking to the Whip on duty when I asked him the questions that had been formulated carefully by our advisers. I should be grateful if he replied to me in writing, as he is clearly not going to respond at the moment.

[Mr Lidington]

I can assure my hon. Friend that, when it comes to dealing with him, my patience is infinite. I will certainly check the record and I will write to him if there are any points on which we have not given him an adequate answer. I ask him to look at what I have said about the nugatory costs of the measures, because questions on that matter formed a considerable part of the series of questions that he put to me during his speech.

The hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East asked about the Government’s attitude towards the proposal to appoint additional judges to the General Court. My answer is that we do not rule this out. We can see why this is being advocated as a means of reducing the significant backlog of cases at the General Court, but before we agree to an increase in the number of judges, with the additional costs that that would undoubtedly entail, we certainly want to be absolutely clear that every possible efficiency measure had been taken to reduce the General Court’s spending and to improve its productivity. We view this question—and the possible costs arising out of an increased number of judges—as one that needs to be addressed in the broader framework of the financial pressures on the EU and its member states and in the context of the negotiations over annual EU budgets and the multi-annual financial framework.

Another point in reply to the hon. Lady is that, in addition to our concern about costs, we would want to be satisfied with the judges concerned if additional judges were indeed appointed. The United Kingdom—England and Wales in particular, where a common law system applies—will be concerned as a country to make sure that judges with a knowledge of common law systems are properly represented when cases are considered by the European Court of Justice.

I have tried to respond to the points raised in the debate, and I hope that the House will now agree to the motion.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House takes note of the draft Regulation 2011/0901A(COD) of the European Parliament and of the Council (amending the Protocol on the Statute of the Court of Justice of the European Union and Annex 1 thereto) and draft Regulation 2011/0902(COD) (relating to temporary Judges of the European Union Civil Service Tribunal) and, in accordance with section 10 of the European Union Act 2011, approves Her Majesty’s Government’s intention to support the adoption of draft Regulations 2011/0901A(COD) and 2011/0902(COD) of the European Parliament and of the Council.

EU Charter of Fundamental Human Rights

David Lidington Excerpts

Thursday 12th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

I beg to move,

That this House takes note of European Union Documents No. 18635/11, relating to the Joint Communication to the European Parliament and the Council on Human rights and democracy at the heart of EU external action-towards a more effective approach, together with an unnumbered Explanatory Memorandum dated 7 June 2012, submitted by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, relating to a draft Council Decision appointing the European Union Special Representative for Human Rights, and the EU Action Plan on Human Rights and Democracy, and No. 8905/12 and Addenda 1 and 2, a Commission Report to the European Parliament and the Council, the European Economic and Social Committee and the Committee of the Regions on the Application of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights; notes the Commission document on the Progress on Equality Between Women and Men in 2011; endorses the Government’s intention to support the draft Decision on the EU Special Representative for Human Rights; and welcomes the Government’s work to provide for enhanced Member State oversight of the Special Representative’s activities in Articles 10 and 11 of the draft mandate.

The motion deals with a number of European Union documents. As the House will appreciate, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is responsible for those documents dealing with the EU’s human rights strategy and the proposed appointment of a human rights special representative. The Ministry of Justice is responsible for other documents included in the bundle, and I acknowledge the presence of the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), in that connection.

Two years ago, almost to the day, the House debated the creation of the European External Action Service, an institution set up by the Lisbon treaty. The Government took the view that, whatever opinions the two parties in the coalition had about the creation of the EAS, now that it existed as the creation of the Lisbon treaty, we wanted the new institutional arrangement to complement our own strong commitment to an active British foreign policy and to use the EAS to help to deliver the diplomatic objectives of the United Kingdom. Our judgment is that the EU’s new human rights strategy is an example of how the EAS can be used to complement and amplify the UK’s own human rights policy.

This afternoon, I want to address some of the concerns expressed by the European Scrutiny Committee and others about the implications of the measures before us. I have singled out three matters in particular.

[Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right to address the concerns of the Scrutiny Committee, but does he accept that there is some concern in the Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly, particularly about how the two jurisdictions of the special representative and the human rights commissioner of the Council of Europe will overlap and interweave, whether this will be duplication or a takeover, and whether it all makes sense?

[Mr Lidington]

I completely understand my hon. Friend’s point. I said that I wanted to address the concerns expressed by the European Scrutiny Committee and others.

The three issues I have in mind are: first, the need to maintain the rights of member states to determine their foreign policies and to avoid any scope for competence creep towards the EU institutions; secondly, concerns about the balance of responsibilities between the EU institutions themselves and, in particular, the role of the European Parliament; and thirdly—this goes straight to my hon. Friend’s point—the relationship between the EU special representative on human rights and the work of the Council of Europe, particularly its human rights commissioner.

Let me deal first with the question of competence and the rights of member states to determine their foreign policy. Democratic freedoms, universal human rights and respect for the rule of law are at the heart of British diplomacy and policy. I believe that the new EU human rights strategy and in particular the EU special representative on human rights will help us to deliver our national foreign policy objectives better through the EU, by providing a strong and visible face for its external action on human rights.

The EU’s external human rights policy flows from the common defence and security policy, which will provide the operating framework for the special representative. Declaration 13, annexed to the treaties, provides confirmation that the CFSP does

“not affect the responsibilities of the Member States… for the formulation and conduct of their foreign policy”.

Therefore, the new human rights package will not affect our ability to formulate and conduct our own national foreign policy. Furthermore, decisions at European level on CFSP require unanimous approval by the Council, with agreement by every member state. No EU position on external human rights policy or any other aspect of common foreign and security policy can be agreed without the approval of the British Minister or other representative in the room, and of course the same right of veto applies to every other member state. There is no suggestion in these documents or elsewhere that there should be any change to those arrangements.

The Government’s view remains firmly that the EU must act only where it has the competence to do so under the European Union treaties. We will remain vigilant against any threat of competence creep through the actions of the External Action Service. It is essential that the EAS continues to complement and support, not replace, national diplomatic services. That is why, for example, we have been so resolute on the principle that the EAS should have no front-line role in consular services, which would go beyond the supporting role for member states provided for in the treaties.

So far the EAS has delivered best when it has worked closely with member states and capitalised on the resources of member states and EU institutions. I will quickly highlight what I think are a number of genuine achievements from the past year where the EAS has worked well and, in doing so, has helped to deliver important British foreign policy objectives. First, there was the review of the European neighbourhood policy, which has produced an ambitious framework for the EU’s approach to the emerging democracies of north Africa and the middle east. That is now starting to have a practical impact through structures such as the EU-Tunisia taskforce.

Secondly, the EAS and Baroness Ashton personally have worked closely with the E3 plus 3 to engage Iran over its nuclear programme, and the EU recently agreed to the most far-reaching sanctions ever imposed on any other country, working in that case closely and efficiently with the Governments of the individual member states. Thirdly, the sanctions already in place against the Syrian regime—16 rounds already agreed—are still under consideration and may be strengthened further.

The proposed EU special representative will allow us to deliver more such examples of successful EU external action. The role is granted in article 33 of the treaty on European Union, which provides:

“The Council may, on a proposal from the High Representative …appoint a special representative with a mandate in relation to particular policy issues.”

The way in which the mandate is implemented will be critical, and I am glad that the European Scrutiny Committee noted the United Kingdom’s successful efforts to secure an additional layer of member state oversight of the special representative’s activities, in order to guard against any unwelcome or unwarranted expansion of their responsibilities. Article 11 of the mandate provides that

“the EUSR shall work in coordination with the Member states.”

Article 10 requires that he or she

“shall also report to the competent Council working parties”,

and article 4 states that the Council’s

“Political and Security Committee shall maintain a privileged link with the EUSR”.

The last provision is common to all EUSR mandates. In practice, that “privileged link” means that the special representative will be able to communicate directly with the Council, bringing together the representatives of the 27 member states, rather than having to go through the High Representative or through other structures. The mandate also ensures that the Political and Security Committee will

“provide the EU special representative with strategic guidance and political direction.”

Given those safeguards, I am confident that the United Kingdom is well placed to play a leading part in giving that direction and guidance to the EUSR and in holding the special representative to account for his or her actions.

The appointment of a special representative will in no way affect the United Kingdom’s ability to speak, as now, on its own behalf in international organisations, including the Human Rights Council of the United Nations. As is the case now, the European Union may speak on our behalf only if there is a shared position to which the United Kingdom has signed up, and which requires unanimity. On the basis of those safeguards, I seek the House’s approval for the establishment of the role.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

Having attended many meetings of the UN Human Rights Council, I was consistently disappointed when the member state representative said nothing and left it all to the EU representative. I am pleased that increasingly the UK representative speaks independently, particularly about the death penalty, but can the Minister assure the House that we will continue to have an independent voice at the UN Human Rights Council and will resort to the EU representative to speak on our behalf only in a case of absolute unanimity?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Lidington]

I can give the hon. Gentleman two assurances. We are members of the UN Human Rights Council in our own right. When there is no unanimously agreed common foreign and security policy position, the United Kingdom’s representative will speak on behalf of the United Kingdom Government’s position. When there is a unanimously agreed CFSP position, normally that will be represented by the European Union’s representative, but member states do speak—particularly if the occasion is sufficiently important—in support of the EU representative’s view, giving extra weight to the views expressed on behalf of all 27 members. It is best left to judge on a case-by-case basis exactly what tactic will be the most effective in delivering the outcome we want, but I take to heart the hon. Gentleman’s point about wanting to hear the vigorous expression of British policy objectives, whether on our own or in support of a unanimously agreed EU position.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

I am extremely grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way in a second debate this afternoon.

If there is not a unanimously agreed position, can the EU representative speak at all, or do they have to remain silent?

[Mr Lidington]

If there is no unanimously agreed position, there is no locus for the EU representative to speak at all; they have a right to express a view only when there is an agreed European Union position. As hon. Members on both sides will probably recall, there have been occasions when, regrettably, European Union member states have split two or three different ways on a particular issue before the Human Rights Council.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

Does that apply to the noble Baroness Ashton as well? Can she speak on foreign policy matters only with the consent of the British Government?

[Mr Lidington]

Baroness Ashton is an office holder, in accordance with the treaties, as both vice-president of the Commission and High Representative of the European Union. She can speak out on foreign policy issues in that capacity; what she cannot legitimately do is express a view purporting to be the commonly agreed policy of the European Union, and therefore on behalf of all 27 member states, unless the decision to adopt a common position has been taken by those member states.

In practice, what happens is that a common foreign and security policy position is adopted. An incident may then occur—another outrage in Syria, for example. Nobody quarrels with the idea that Baroness Ashton would comment on that, just as my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary would; the test is whether the statements are in line with the foreign policy position that has been unanimously agreed. In my experience, Baroness Ashton has observed very well the requirements of the treaty and the importance of unanimity for a commonly agreed position.

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

Is the Minister aware of the widespread concern among Members of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe? We already have a perfectly good commissioner for human rights. Given that the Government’s rhetoric is all about avoiding competence creep by the EU and that we already have a perfectly good person doing a perfectly good job on behalf of nation states throughout Europe, we cannot understand why we are going along with the measure. The Minister has to reassure us further that in no way will it go against British national policy.

[Mr Lidington]

I have explained why the measure does not cut across British national policy, but I will come in greater detail to the relationship between the EU special representative and the Council of Europe.

I turn to the action plan. The European Scrutiny Committee noted that it is a comprehensive text and suggested that it constitutes a departure from the approach outlined in the previous joint communication. The High Representative has described human rights as

“a silver thread that runs through everything that we do in external relations.”

That is very much how the Government see human rights, too. In 2010, early in the Government’s life, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary said that

“values are part of our national DNA and will be woven deeply into the decision-making processes of our foreign policy at every stage.”

The action plan is comprehensive, because integrating a human rights perspective across all areas of the EU’s external action is the best way to ensure that the European Union maximises its influence on these issues.

We did not just agree to the action plan on the nod. We conducted a line-by-line assessment of the items, and we are content that what is proposed is in line with our policy objectives and does not pose a risk of competence creep. In addition, the Council has formally agreed that the action plan will fully respect the existing division of competencies. Although it is a comprehensive document, it both builds on the original joint communication and has been examined closely by the Government on precisely the question of competence that concerns my hon. Friend.

[Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

rose—

[Mr Lidington]

I will give way, but I am very conscious that a lot of hon. Members wish to speak.

[Mr Cash]

It is also true that the Minister is at the Dispatch Box and has a responsibility to answer these questions. There are four pages under the headings of outcome, action, timing and responsibility. Is he seriously suggesting that in every single respect, given the general nature of all these things and the fact that the legal consequences will ultimately end up in some court or other, he is right in making such a general assertion?

[Mr Lidington]

Yes, of course the action plan is expressed in general terms, because the intention is that those general principles should be applied to the European Union’s human rights activity across the range of EU dossiers and areas of external policy action.

On the common foreign and security policy—CFSP—the freedom of the EU special representative or the High Representative to express a view and develop a policy on behalf of the EU collectively will depend on whether a CFSP position has been unanimously agreed for a particular country, region or crisis. The action plan describes in general terms how the EU and its High Representative and special representative should determine their priorities for action, but we cannot sit down in July 2012 and write down in detail which countries and crises will be involved and in what manner such work should be undertaken. Foreign Ministers in the Foreign Affairs Council and national representatives in the Political and Security Committee will consider these matters case by case.

The European Parliament saw a role for itself on the CFSP following the Lisbon treaty, and we were equally clear that the CFSP would remain intergovernmental. The High Representative has made a gesture to the Parliament in a non-binding declaration on political accountability, which says that she will seek the views—nothing more than that—of the European Parliament on CFSP matters. As one would expect, the European Parliament has taken a keen interest in the new human rights package. In accordance with article 36 of the treaty on the European Union, the mandate for the special representative provides that he or she

“may be involved in briefing the European Parliament.”

However, such briefings may take place only in a committee or sub-committee configuration and never in plenary debates, in which only the High Representative may participate. This reflects the arrangement, which we firmly support and uphold, that on issues pertaining to the CFSP the High Representative may be replaced in plenary only by a Minister of a member state.

I want to move on to the possible overlap with the Council of Europe, which concerns several Members. I start by acknowledging the important work that right hon. and hon. Members in all parts of the House play as Members of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe. I recall the very pleasurable visits that I made to the Parliamentary Assembly during the United Kingdom’s six-month presidency of the Council of Europe. It is clearly important that there be effective, mutually trusting co-ordination between the Council of Europe, particularly its human rights commissioner, and the EU’s new special representative on human rights. That is reflected in the wording of the mandate, which I will describe shortly.

I note that the two roles have distinct responsibilities. The Council of Europe’s human rights commissioner is mandated to promote awareness of and respect for human rights within the member states of the Council of Europe. The EU special representative’s role is different; it is to promote human rights globally as part of the EU’s unanimously agreed CFSP. Both office holders will be involved in work on promoting respect for human rights in states of the Council of Europe that are not EU member states. To avoid any risk of unhelpful overlap and duplication, article 11(3) of the EUSR’s mandate expressly requires him or her to

“liaise and seek complementarity and synergies with other international and regional actors”.

To turn that jargon into English, it means that the special representative should maintain a regular dialogue with the commissioner to avoid duplication. The secretariat of the Council of Europe has expressed no concern to us about the creation of this role. Indeed, subject to proper co-ordination, it welcomes an increased focus on human rights within the EU’s external action.

During the UK’s presidency, I discussed with Secretary-General Jagland the relationship between the Council of Europe and the European Union. I was pleased to learn from him and other senior officials in the Council of Europe that, over the past year or so, there had been a distinct improvement in the quality of liaison and co-operation between the two organisations. There was a feeling, certainly among the secretariat, that there was no longer the pressure from the EU that there had been for its institutions to take over the work of the Council of Europe; rather, efforts were being made on both sides to agree the areas where each was likely to be the most effective actor.

[Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)]

That may be the view of officials at the Council of Europe, but it is certainly not the view of the members of the Parliamentary Assembly. In a debate at the last part-session, members from all political parties and from right across the 47 member states expressed grave concern about the duplication and the additional cost involved in this project. Why are we spending money on this project in an age of austerity?

[Mr Lidington]

The budget for the special representative and his or her office and team has to be found from within the existing budget of the External Action Service. It will therefore have to be found at the expense of other potential items of expenditure. I have no doubt that some people will argue that, given the creation of the role, a bigger budget is needed, as with any EU special representative role, but we do not accept that. We continually resist calls for increases in annual and multi-annual budgets and seek to bear down on the costs of, and to secure better value for money in, individual special representatives’ missions and common security and defence missions more generally. I do not want my hon. Friend to think that this will lead to a vast new bill.

[Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)]

Some members of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe have a different view from the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope). Some of us hope that the fundamental focus of the Council of Europe on human rights might reinfect the body politic of the European Union and add human rights to some of the agreed trade policies that have ignored human rights.

[Mr Lidington]

The hon. Gentleman has made his point for the record.

[Oliver Heald]

My concern is that the Council of Europe includes large and important countries such as Russia and Turkey. At the moment, those countries seem to be taking a constructive approach to the implementation of court judgments, criticisms and so on. There seems to be an improving picture. The Russians recently gave evidence to the committee on legal affairs and human rights about what they are doing. There is a great difference between being criticised and having a constructive approach within an organisation that one is part of and having another organisation that one is not part of shouting from the sidelines. Does my right hon. Friend understand that the 27 lecturing the others is not going to work and that we must avoid it?

[Mr Lidington]

If this is going to work to the benefit of the EU and its member states, it is important that it does not turn into the EU lecturing other countries, as my hon. Friend describes it. However, let us consider the situation in countries that are in the Council of Europe and not the EU. I repeat that a great deal is going on in EU relations with countries beyond Europe that are important but do not touch on the Council of Europe’s responsibilities.

For instance, let us take Ukraine. The problems of human rights there are quite properly being dealt with through Council of Europe mechanisms. In particular, individuals can take specific grievances about alleged abuses of human rights to the European Court of Human Rights and have them tested by judges. However, the European Union has important relationships with Ukraine in its own right. Ukraine is part of the EU’s eastern partnership and has been negotiating with the EU an association agreement and a deepened comprehensive free trade agreement, which include clauses on human rights and political reform.

The special representative for human rights can add value by giving extra coherence and force to aspects of specifically EU external policy that touch upon human rights matters. It is important that the two organisations respect each other’s important and complementary roles. I would be concerned if I thought that the EU had an appetite to take over what the Council of Europe was properly doing, but all I can say is that that is not what I am hearing from senior officials at the Council of Europe or from the High Representative and her senior team.

I turn briefly to the other documents in the bundle, although they are not the direct responsibility of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. The first is the Commission’s 2011 report on the application of the European Union charter of fundamental rights. The European Scrutiny Committee questioned whether the annual report served as a tool effectively and systematically to monitor the implementation of the charter and how the effective implementation of the charter by member states would be measured in future.

It is important to note that the report is not an enforcement tool. It sets out a number of mechanisms that the EU institutions are developing to review EU legislation as it is drafted, to ensure that the rights and principles listed in the charter are respected. Although the charter is primarily directed at EU institutions and at member states only when they are implementing European law, the Government will consider any Commission proposal on how the actions of member states in that area might also be assessed.

The final text before us is the Commission’s report on progress on equality between women and men. This is the first time that the document has been included with the report on the application of the charter, and the Government consider that the two reports sit well together. The Government believe that the UK has a good story to tell on gender equality. Our priority is to support women in employment, whether through the provision of quality, affordable child care or by providing mentors for aspiring business women. The Commission’s report rightly reflects the fact that progress is being made but warns us against being at all complacent about gender equality.

In working with our EU partners on human rights issues, our objective throughout is to ensure that the EU institutions act to advance the prosperity, security and values of the UK by complementing and supplementing, not replacing, the work of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and other arms of the UK Government. We consider that a new EU special representative for human rights will help us deliver our national diplomatic objectives through the EU by providing a strong, visible face for European external action on human rights. I therefore seek the House’s approval for the establishment of that role and commend the motion to the House.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Lidington]

May I first thank all hon. Members who have contributed to the debate? I say to the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty) that the action plan clearly sets out the fact that part of the special representative’s role will be to act as an advocate for human rights concerns with both the Council, representing the member states, and the EU institutions because, as he will know, the Commission in particular will have a leading role in trade negotiations, for example. The purpose of the framework, with the strategy, the action plan and the special representative, is to ensure that human rights concerns cannot be overlooked or dismissed in any area of the EU’s external activity.

The hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) asked about Hungary. Our general approach to the Hungarian legal changes has been to support the European Commission in its approach to the Hungarian Government. As she acknowledged, the Hungarian Government altered their proposed media law after conversations with the Commission, and the same was true of their proposed changes to the governance of the Hungarian central bank, which were later amended. I have had a number of conversations about these issues with my Hungarian opposite number over the past 18 months. I will write to the hon. Lady with a little more detail on the matters she raised.

The hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) asked about the scope of the action plan and the special representative’s role. Article 20 of the action plan relates to gender-based violence, article 14 deals with action against human trafficking, and article 9 covers trade agreements, so these generic issues are within scope. The particular issue of migration that he talked about can be covered in the action plan’s reference to the EU’s development instruments. My one word of caution is that this particular set of documents comes within the framework of the common foreign and security policy, whereas some of the questions he asked are really about the treatment by EU member states of migrant and minority populations within their own borders, and that is outwith the scope of the special representative, whose responsibilities pertain to the EU’s external policy only. It is probably best if I do not talk about the Russian cases he mentioned, because I have not read the judgments or been able to take a considered view on them. His point about human rights defenders was well made. Again, standing up for human rights defenders is listed explicitly as one of the items in the action programme.

I will write to my hon. Friend the Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) on some of the detailed points she made, particularly those about the death penalty. As she said, the two issues that concern her—women’s rights and freedom of religion—form an important part of the action plan and will be within the scope of the special representative’s work. With regard to the arms trade treaty, the United Kingdom remains firmly of the view that we want an ATT that contains strong human rights and international humanitarian law provisions, and that is what British Ministers and officials will be pressing for in the forthcoming round of negotiations.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) raised the serious question of how we get the balance right between an acceptance that people everywhere are entitled to respect, dignity and what we would term human rights and the right of electors in a democracy to express their will and have it carried into effect by those whom they choose to govern them. That takes us a long way beyond the scope of the motion before us, but they are very important and profound questions with which countries throughout the world are grappling, and we accept that in the national sphere there should be constraints, legislative or constitutional, on the untrammelled freedom of a majority to act, which may be temporary, when that action might unfairly or unreasonably damage the interests of minorities.

The debate to which my hon. Friend was contributing was about the extent to which that principle should be adopted internationally, too, and I would just say this with regard to the EU. The EU is not just an economic club; it has always been a club for democracies. Spain could not get in until it established democracy, and the EU accession process is the most important driver of democratic, political and rule of law reform in eastern and central Europe today. I ask that the House support the motion before us.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House takes note of European Union Documents No. 18635/11, relating to the Joint Communication to the European Parliament and the Council on Human rights and democracy at the heart of EU external action-towards a more effective approach, together with an unnumbered Explanatory Memorandum dated 7 June 2012, submitted by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, relating to a draft Council Decision appointing the European Union Special Representative for Human Rights, and the EU Action Plan on Human Rights and Democracy, and No. 8905/12 and Addenda 1 and 2, a Commission Report to the European Parliament and the Council, the European Economic and Social Committee and the Committee of the Regions on the Application of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights; notes the Commission document on the Progress on Equality Between Women and Men in 2011; endorses the Government’s intention to support the draft Decision on the EU Special Representative for Human Rights; and welcomes the Government’s work to provide for enhanced Member State oversight of the Special Representative’s activities in Articles 10 and 11 of the draft mandate.