European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [Lords]

Geraint Davies Excerpts

Monday 10th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Wayne David]

My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. We would not be holding a debate for the sake of it, and we are not talking about transparency for the sake of it. We are trying to underline the importance of the ESM, which is being developed for the first time. It is imperative that we have an ongoing debate.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Is my hon. Friend aware that, only last week, members of the Welsh Affairs Committee were in Brussels to talk to MEPs and Commissioners about this important issue? Does he agree that that is symptomatic of the enormous appetite for discussion of these strategic issues that have a direct impact on the economic future of Britain?

[Wayne David]

I was not aware that the Welsh Affairs Committee had been in Brussels, but that underlines my point that this issue is absolutely central to the European Union at the moment. Debates in Select Committees should not be confined to the European Scrutiny Committee; other Committees should debate these matters as well. I have to say that I would not immediately have thought of the Welsh Affairs Committee as an appropriate vehicle for that, but I imagine that much of the discussion in Brussels focused on how Wales would be impacted by the developments in the European Union.

[Geraint Davies]

As my hon. Friend has questioned the legitimacy of the Welsh Affairs Committee in that regard, I should make him aware that the Committee has recently published an excellent report on inward investment and prosperity in Wales. A key part of that economic activity involves inward investment from and trade with Europe. That is why we adopted a nationally based view—in regard to the nation of Wales—as opposed to the departmental silo-based views. We have a crucial locus on this matter.

--- Later in debate ---

[Wayne David]

Yes, that is an important point, and the role of the ECB is central. Many of us would like to see it being more proactive far sooner than it has been in the past, but its more assertive role could be critical in the future.

Another concern is the circularity of having the facility guaranteed by the same group of countries that might draw on the fund. For example, we all know that Italy’s situation could become difficult, yet Italy is a country that is, at the same time, ensuring that resources are going into the fund that it might itself be required to draw on. That strange relationship and potential incompatibility at the heart of the ESM needs to be thought about carefully. What is important is what is being established here and now. Nevertheless, as situations develop, it becomes all the more important to review the circumstances.

The credit rating of the ESM is another issue. We all know that certain countries, including a number of eurozone countries, have been downgraded in the not-too-distant past. That includes France, which came as a big surprise to many people. The EFSF has been downgraded, too, and we must be sure that that does not develop further with respect to the ESM.

[Geraint Davies]

My hon. Friend and the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) have made the point that if some countries in a group are both taking and giving money at the same time, it amounts to a problem. What about a simple model of a credit union and a community, from which some people put money in and some take it out? What about a marketplace in which some countries put resources in so that other countries can consume their exports? Is that not part of a system for helping broader growth, which is not a problem at all?

[Wayne David]

My hon. Friend could well be right, and I hope that he is, but it is an issue that needs to be rationalised and thought through carefully. My feeling is that, at this stage of the ESM’s development, it has not been given serious thought. It may be necessary and desirable, but it must, as I say, be thought through carefully. It must not happen by accident, but by proper design. The fact that it is not in the design of the programme at the moment provides all the more reason to ensure that we have a proper review and some time for the objective to be explicitly stated.

My last point is about private sector involvement. It is assumed that we are talking about public money, which to a large extent we are, but there is also a role for private sector involvement, which will be done in accordance with good practice as established by the International Monetary Fund. That is welcome, but, again, it needs to be monitored carefully. If we need to enhance our programme or provide more stipulations, those things must be done.

--- Later in debate ---

[Geraint Davies]

The hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) has just given us a diatribe in support of laissez-faire economics and casting Britain adrift, and the idea that whatever happens in terms of the ESM will not have any impact on British trade and jobs, which it clearly will.

Like you, Mr Benton, I am a member of the Council of Europe, and we both take very seriously the issue of Europe and our economic, political and social relationships with it. The Welsh Affairs Committee recently visited Brussels to talk to Commissioners, MEPs and others about the prospects for Europe. As we all know, the big debate there, as here, is to do with the challenge of finding the right balance between encouraging growth and making cuts in order to get us back on track. There are very different views in Europe—as there are, of course, across the Committee—about the need to get growth on track, rather than to crush it through excessive austerity measures. The setting up of the ESM will be critical, as will the terms of reference and the details of how it operates.

As to the ESM providing targeted support for Greece and others, the latest debate in Europe is about the interest rate to be applied and the period over which it will be repaid. Those are the two crucial issues for Greece, alongside the question of where the money will be targeted. Instead of being directed towards paying down existing debt, if the money were targeted on solar forests in Greece to provide energy to sell to Europe, on a railway network that supported a more effective tourist industry or on providing universal broadband for Greece to link up to the world, that would provide tools for growth rather than a hammer to hit across the heads of the worst-affected Greek people.

The way in which the ESM operates, its terms of reference, how it impacts on ailing countries and their sovereign debt and its relationship with our country all have major implications for our national interest. I am amazed that those on the other side of the debate—they say they are eurosceptics, but perhaps they should be members of the UK Independence party—deny that there are any implications for our national and economic interests and the jobs of local people in having these proposed reports, and in ensuring they are not merely produced annually, but updated more often.

There is a big difference between what happened in the 1930s, when France, one of the possible locomotives of growth, did not take the opportunity to provide it and instead allowed soaring unemployment in Germany—the rest is history—and what happened in 2008, when we faced a potential depression and Obama and Brown put in place a fiscal stimulus to keep growth going. Recently, we been facing the prospect of a new winter of austerity, but people have at last woken up, and it has now been recognised that the ESM and the fiscal stimulus are about getting Europe back on track, and thereby also securing our own positive future and destiny.

I therefore make no apology for supporting these two modest new clauses, and I hope they will enjoy support across the Committee.

[Mr Lidington]

New clause 1 would require the Government to report annually to Parliament on the impact of the ESM on the UK economy. As the Committee will no doubt be aware by now, the Chancellor already reports regularly to Parliament on Britain’s economic performance through the Budget and the autumn statement. In addition, the Government regularly publish details on our financial relationships with the International Monetary Fund and the European Union and on our bilateral loan to Ireland. As my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) so brilliantly pointed out, placing an additional reporting burden on the UK Government in respect of information that will largely be in the public domain has no apparent gains and serves no purpose.

The other new clause proposes that the Government report on the impact of the ESM on the economic performance of the EU. I hope that Members would agree that it would not be appropriate for the UK to produce reports on the economic policy and performance of our European neighbours. I can guess what the reaction would be in this place if we were to hear about a debate in the Bundestag or the Greek Parliament about the economic policy of the UK; I can envisage the angry points of order, the protests to Mr Speaker, the early-day motions and the requests to invoke Standing Order No. 20.

The new clause is not needed. The Chancellor has regularly updated the House throughout this crisis, including on developments in the euro-area assistance programmes and on negotiations over the ESM. Furthermore, the Opposition have overlooked the fact that the Commission already annually produces a report on the borrowing and lending activities of the EU, including under the different financial assistance mechanisms. The Government, under the normal scrutiny system, produce an explanatory memorandum for Parliament that summarises the report. That is sent to the European Scrutiny Committee, which, as with any such memorandum, has the option to refer the report for debate. It is also within the remit of the Treasury Committee to launch an inquiry into it, or for the Backbench Business Committee to schedule a debate.

These new clauses would create an unnecessary and burdensome obligation, with no clear benefit. As my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) said, they would merely serve to tie up civil service resources in order to report on a mechanism that the UK is not even a part of, and has no intention whatever of joining.

An analogy with the Schengen agreement can be drawn. We are not a part of that, and the Government do not publish an annual report on it to Parliament. Of course, however, Home Office and Justice Ministers will answer questions and hold themselves to account if there are any important developments in that agreement that affect this country. In the event of there being any justice and home affairs measures into which the UK Government might choose to opt, the normal scrutiny system would apply, with the possibility of debates being held either in the ESC or on the Floor of the House.

The Bill is concerned only with approval of the decision amending article 136 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union, and not with the ESM. These new clauses are therefore wide of the mark. In fact, the only reason I can conceive of as to why Parliament might wish to accept such a reporting requirement is if we were planning to be part of the ESM, which, of course, would in turn mean we were planning to be part of the euro. The logic of the Opposition new clauses is that they still have in mind that prospect for this country.

Of course, as we know, the weasel words have already been employed. In this Bill’s Second Reading a week ago, the shadow Foreign Secretary, the right hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander), was challenged as to the prospect of the UK entering the euro, and he said there was no immediate prospect of that happening. We know, too, that when the Leader of the Opposition was pressed on this same matter, he said that whether or not the United Kingdom were to join the euro would be a matter of how long he were to remain as Prime Minister.

Not only did we hear from my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset a clear and devastating exposition of why the Opposition new clauses are completely otiose, but we can see in the Opposition’s decision to bring such new clauses before the Committee this evening some hint of the policy yearning which dare not speak its name: they still cherish that lingering dream of taking this country into the euro one day. The Committee should have nothing whatever to do with these new clauses, and we should reject them.