P&O Ferries

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I want to talk about business culture, the culture of an organisation that takes action like this, the culture that led the management of P&O to turn these people out of their jobs with no notice because they could, or thought they could—Zoomed out of work after years, decades, of service to that company. There was no empathy or self-awareness in this action, and there was no understanding that it was wrong. The fact that the management was unwilling or unable to see this speaks volumes about the culture of P&O and that of its owner, DP World.

But how about closer to home? It is clear that government officials were warned about this act of corporate brutality, so can the Minister confirm to your Lordships’ House who knew in advance? Can she tell your Lordships why this knowledge rang no alarm bells? That it was apparently waved through also reveals the culture of this Government: they had time. If the Government allow this sort of behaviour to go unchecked, what sort of precedent does it set or reinforce? Will others, yet more in the shipping industry, argue that they are compelled to follow suit in order to remain competitive?

Speaking on the BBC’s “Today” programme on Friday 18 March, the spokesperson for the UK Chamber of Shipping, Peter Aylott, said at the end of an interview that he was content and very confident that P&O had acted properly. Does the Minister agree with the trade body?

Despite their knowing in advance, since the announcement, the Secretary of State and other Ministers have wrung their hands, as the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, pointed out. These displays of remorse are mere crocodile tears unless the Government actually do something. Ideally, the Government should cause P&O to think again. They should use their leverage on the parent company to make it make its company change its mind.

Assuming that that is not possible, here are a few ideas for the Minister and the Government. First, can the Minister say here and now that the Government will make sure that not one penny of the settlement to which these employees are entitled is withheld by P&O using legalistic threats and wrangles? Secondly, has the Minister spoken to the Pensions Regulator and can she assure your Lordships’ House that the pension fund it safe and will not need to be topped up by the Government or under the pension guarantee support scheme? Can she confirm that the huge amount of money P&O owes to the rating pension scheme is still on the hook and it will still pay it?

Thirdly, can the Minister undertake to ensure that every one of the new employees, if this has to go ahead, is reviewed for their qualifications? I fear that unqualified people will take these jobs, and that is a safety issue. P&O Ferries has obligations under the International Safety Management Code, which requires each vessel to have a safety management system. That system is then audited by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, which produces a document of compliance. Can the Minister explain how on earth P&O can still comply with that vital safety certification if it has made a 100% change of crew?

Then there is the role of the corporate owner of P&O in the UK economy. Please will the Minister undertake to give a list of all the public contracts that are held by DP World, and can she explain how, on the one hand, her Secretary of State can say what he did about P&O and, on the other, those contracts can possibly be retained by its parent company?

Finally, there are freeports. DP World is at the forefront here. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Rishi Sunak, personally opened the DP World-backed Thames Freeport. Speaking at the commercial launch, at the Saudi Arabian owned Savoy Hotel in London, the Chancellor said he was “thrilled” by DP World’s involvement. His level of thrill will no doubt have been doubled by the fact that DP World Southampton has also been awarded freeport status for the Solent Freeport. There is an inherent danger with freeports. They hold huge potential to be hotbeds of tax evasion and money laundering. For that reason, it is vital that organisations leading such ventures have an impeccable moral compass. After the events of last week, we now know that DP World presides over a culture that fails to understand the moral implications of its actions. It has a wonky moral compass. Is that really the sort of company that we want running our freeports?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Rosser and Lord, Lord Fox—the latter standing in for the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, so well today—for their comments on this very regrettable and mishandled situation. The Government do not support the behaviour of P&O Ferries—clearly at the behest of its owner, DP World. It was an appalling situation for those workers to be in, and it will have had a devastating impact on the corporate reputation of P&O Ferries and DP World. I should like to point out that this is P&O Ferries, not P&O Cruises, which is owned under a different structure and has nothing to do with the ferries. I would not want this regrettable incident to bear too heavily—indeed, at all—on the cruises.

I will turn to the points raised by the noble Lords, Lord Rosser and Lord Fox, in due course, but I will first clearly set out that the Government are exploring all options to hold P&O Ferries and DP World to account. The circumstances are still unfolding. At this point, we need to get a clear understanding of what they are, what rights the seafarers have and what they are being offered by their very recent employer. It is also worth remembering that P&O Ferries still employs well over a thousand people—possibly up to nearly 2,000. We need to make sure that we understand what may happen to them and what P&O Ferries intends for them.

The world of employment law on international routes is hugely complicated. In many circumstances, the jurisdiction of the flag state applies on board vessels on international routes. Occasionally, that can also be a coastal state or the state under which the contract of employment was signed. We believe that was Jersey for some of these workers, but there is an awful lot of information to be found out about the circumstances surrounding the contracts and employment of these individuals. We are working very closely with officials in the department to press P&O Ferries and its owner, DP World, for the information we need to fully get to grips with some of the issues we want to proceed with. As mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, we are looking very carefully at our contracts with P&O Ferries and DP World. We will immediately review them all.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, mentioned furlough. It was, and remains right, that those employers received furlough. It is paid to the employee. It would be absolutely wrong to assume that P&O Ferries would have benefited from furlough, and those workers certainly had their jobs protected for longer because they got it. I still believe that providing furlough was the right thing to do in those circumstances. However, we will very closely consider the relationship of the UK Government with both organisations and put P&O Ferries and DP World on notice that their relationship with Her Majesty’s Government has now changed.

We have instructed all parts of government to do whatever they can to support the workers who have been impacted. Obviously, we are in touch with DWP, which will work with local employers. I am incredibly heartened by some of the messages we have had from local employers across the country looking for these highly skilled individuals and wanting to get them on board.

We have instructed the Maritime and Coastguard Agency to inspect all P&O vessels, including operational drills, to ensure that all new crews rushed through are safe to go to sea. They will not go to sea unless they have passed all those inspections. We have asked the Insolvency Service to look at the notification requirements and the specifics of the case, to consider whether action is appropriate. P&O has assured the maritime Minister that what it did was correct and legal. We are checking that that is the case and will seek further confirmation. There is a requirement to notify the BEIS Secretary of State if a redundancy notice is intended for more than 100 people. Again, we need to check which legislative framework that applies under.

We are calling on P&O Ferries to reconsider its actions, pause changes and start a meaningful dialogue with seafarers. The Transport Secretary has written to the company with an offer to facilitate discussions. There is quite a long way to go, but I share the anger expressed by both Front-Benchers about the manner in which this was carried out. We—the global we, as in my department and officials—were made aware on the afternoon of 16 March, the day before, which might have been a Wednesday, that this was happening. A very factual note was prepared—I often get factual notes telling me what is happening.

I think the noble Lord, Lord Fox, said it was waved through. Nothing was waved through. There was never a decision to be taken and Ministers were not aware of the note until matters became more urgent on the Thursday morning. It is the case that we are working very closely to understand exactly what has gone on here.

I want to point out at this stage because there has been much outrage—and I am outraged and think noble Lords should all be outraged—that the redundancies announced last week were actually much smaller than the redundancies announced in 2020 and in 2021. I missed the noble Lord’s outrage at that time. I am sure he probably felt it, but it did not appear. Why now and not the previous time? It is because it was done so badly and in such a poor fashion that it is outrageous that any company worth its salt would feel that it is okay to treat human beings in this way.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, referred to possible breaches in the law, and that is exactly what we are focusing on: which law might there have been breaches of and how are we going to address it? I have mentioned that the law is substantially different on international routes. We work on an international basis within the International Labour Organization’s Maritime Labour Convention, which sets out the minimum standards on some key employment and working conditions policy, but I absolutely accept that there is more to be done. This is an international workforce. It works globally. It works onboard. It is something that the UK Government can only influence internationally.

I will take the noble Lord’s point about the nationality-based pay differential. He noted that the regulations are due for review. I concede that the review has not been completed. The delay will have been due to Covid and other pressing needs on the legislative programme, but I will write to him with further details of what that review will be.

The noble Lord, Lord Fox, asked whether I felt that P&O acted properly. Clearly, I feel that it did not. There is an awful lot of work to be done. I do not know whether it will ever be able to rebuild its reputation because I fear that many people will vote with their feet. He also mentioned something important about the pensions. There is a deficit in the pension scheme and P&O will still be accountable for that deficit.

He asked whether the MCA will be reviewing the qualifications and the systems. As I have said, there will be a—how can I put this?—very thorough review by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency to make sure that these vessels are fit to go to sea. He mentioned a 100% change of crews. Again, I am not sure that there is a 100% change of crews. It could well be that certain crew members have been changed because, of course, P&O Ferries still employs well over 1,000—possibly up to 2,000—people.

I will check Hansard and go through any other points but, for the time being, I will move on to other questions.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend accept that there is outrage across the House at these developments? The shock wave is such that no one quite understands what the implications are for other companies if they seek to do the same. Can my noble friend explain what the position is under the retained EU law that we have spent hours, days and weeks on since we left the European Union? I understand that means if a company wishes to act in this way, there has to be a statutory period of consultation. Why does that not apply in this case? Is it deemed to be an international route now because we are a third country? The difference in 2020 was that we were part of the European Union. Is that a clear understanding of the situation?

The only other point I would like to raise is: what is the ability of Her Majesty’s Government now to requisition such ships as owned by P&O if we encounter a time of hostility? Are we still able to requisition its services as we were in the past when it was owned under a British flag?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will have to write to the noble Baroness about requisitioning. I believe that these vessels all fly under the flag of Cyprus and have done for some time. I am afraid that I am not an expert in requisitioning, but the law surrounding the employment of these seafarers is very complicated. There may be various jurisdictions under which they fall, but in previous times when redundancies have happened—and I mentioned earlier redundancies in 2020 and 2021—there was consultation and notification. So it is not right that this time P&O felt that it could get away scot free by not at least having the conversation. We recognise that sometimes negotiations do not work out and employers may have to make difficult decisions about making people redundant, but it must be worth at least having that conversation.

[The Archbishop of Canterbury]

My Lords, it seems that there is a lack of clarity about what is going to happen. I need to declare an interest, as Dover falls within the diocese that I serve, and economic effects in Dover affect the finances of the diocese of Canterbury. There seems to be a lack of clarity in what the Government are saying. First, we need to be assured not just that letters will be written to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, useful as they will be, but that there will be a further Statement to your Lordships’ House setting out the results of the inquiries that the Government are making legally. Can the Minister assure us that that will be done, and at what point?

Secondly, there certainly seems to be a possibility of very sharp cuts in wages paid to the crews of these ships. Can we be assured that they will fall no further than the national minimum wage in this country? If the law does not permit that, can the law be changed?

Thirdly, in the United States, questions of security and national interest ensure that United States ships on crucial routes are flagged in the United States and crewed by United States citizens. Will be the Government undertake to look at the security implications of crucial short crossings across the channel being crewed by those from all over the world rather than those who are committed to the interests of this country?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank the most reverend Primate for his concern and intervention in this really important topic. We will return to the House and make further Statements. I know that colleagues from BEIS will look at the employment law elements of this issue, and I believe that there is a Question in your Lordships’ House tomorrow, should he wish to press this further.

On the wages of the crew, there are various media reports flying around—again, we do not have confirmation as to what will happen about the wages there. If they are operating on domestic routes within territorial waters, such as from Larne to Cairnryan, they will receive at least the national minimum wage. It is the case—if there is possibly a silver lining for some of those people who may well be losing their jobs—that they will receive six months’ pay plus 2.5 weeks for each year of service. So I am very much hoping that for those people we will be able to fire up the DWP services and work with local employers, and they will also have what is well above a statutory settlement as a result of their redundancy.

The most reverend Primate asked about the security of really important routes, and I recognise that and will take it back to the Maritime Minister and ask him to consider it.

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

My Lords, the great port city of Larne has suffered a devastating blow by the outrageous actions of P&O, with around 50 Northern Ireland workers losing their jobs, many of whom were long-serving seafarers with families to feed. Meanwhile, the Road Haulage Association has said that Northern Ireland hauliers are now operating at around 50% capacity, with food supplies particularly badly affected. With services on this route not expected to resume for at least a week, will the Minister outline what direct action the Government are taking to safeguard the needs and well-being of the people of Northern Ireland who are already dealing with a never-ending supply problem related to the disastrous post-Brexit protocol?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Of course, the Government are watching the services and their capacity levels very closely at the moment. Our assessment is that there is sufficient capacity with other operators. For example, at the short straits, Eurotunnel combined with the other operators will provide sufficient capacity. Obviously, we are monitoring this on an hourly basis and working very closely with operators to see how they can put on extra ships to ensure that freight and passengers are able to move appropriately.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords, as a former trade union negotiator, albeit in my past life and in the airline industry, there were times when we had to negotiate under the most difficult circumstances, particularly concerning downsizing or cost savings. Schemes such as early retirement, voluntary severance and, often, flexible contracts were ways to resolve this issue. Fortunately, we never had to dismiss an employee. Notwithstanding the appalling behaviour of P&O, as has been clearly echoed by Members across this Chamber, could the Minister tell me how long the negotiations took between the trade unions and P&O regarding these redundancies? Were the paid-up members of the trade unions aware of the consequences of an agreement not being reached between the trade unions and P&O? If the Minister does not have this information to hand at present, could she look into this matter with some urgency? In my opinion, while the trade unions are clearly not responsible for these job losses, they were a huge influence in the negotiations which took place.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I can say to my noble friend that we do not believe that there was consultation with the unions, which is one of the big problems here. We have asked for urgent information as to how many conversations there have been. It is our impression, at this current time, that there have not been any conversations. If there were none, that may well be unlawful. That would be up to the employees to challenge via a tribunal. It will also depend on where the jurisdiction for the contract of employment actually lands. My noble friend is quite right that we need to dig into this in an urgent way to ensure that unions are not locked out of these circumstances in the future.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the Minister, in responding to Front Bench questions, rightly said that this action will have a devastating impact on the reputations of P&O Ferries and DP World. The Minister further said that any company worth their salt “would not behave in this way”. The Minister said that the relationship between the Government and DP World has now changed. With that in mind, building on the questions of the noble Lord, Lord Fox, given the fact that freeports are by definition places of, if not lawlessness, certainly reduced legal protection for workers in terms of taxation and so on, how can the Government leave freeports with that kind of structure in the hands of a company which, in the Minister’s own words, has a devastated reputation?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not entirely sure I agree with the noble Baroness that freeports are areas of lawlessness. The point that I am trying to get across is that we are not sure that laws have been broken. Do I feel that, ethically, things have been done that should not have been done? Absolutely. But we do not know that laws have been broken. When it comes to the situation concerning freeports, which the Government wholly support, we are working urgently to establish the facts of what happened. There is a lot of speculation and comment in the media; we need to establish the facts and whether laws have been broken. We will then consider how this might affect any involvement of DP World in British freeports.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I agree with the Minister when she says that it is not okay to treat human beings like this, and that we will be holding DP World to account. DP World is not a public listed company but a fully owned company of the Dubai Government. Has any Minister picked up the phone to Sheikh Mohammed or any of the Dubai authorities to say that it is unacceptable to treat workers like this in our country? How will we be holding the Dubai Government to account, since they own DP World?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

That is an excellent question to which I do not have the answer, but I will write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, on the issue of whether any laws were broken, it is very clear that there needs to be some kind of law to prevent this kind of despicable mass firing and rehiring of hundreds of workers in the way that P&O has acted. Since employment law is a devolved matter, certainly in the case of Northern Ireland, will she undertake on behalf of the Government to liaise with the devolved Governments about any changes that are being thought about? Further to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, can she assure me that the Government have looked at the specific issue of supplies coming from Great Britain to Northern Ireland? We depend an awful lot on our air and sea connectivity. Given the problems of the protocol, can she tell us that the specific channel between Larne and Cairnryan has been examined by the Government?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I can reiterate that all of the routes previously operated by P&O Ferries and currently temporarily suspended are being reviewed by the Government; we are assessing and ensuring that capacity is available. The noble Lord talks about an incredibly difficult and complicated area; of course we will have conversations with the Northern Ireland Executive and, indeed, all devolved Administrations about how we can ensure decent standards for those seafarers who work on the international routes.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, this template must be deeply worrying for the Government. Post Brexit, we were going to be a high-wage, high-skilled economy; now we discover that there may well be a massive loophole in this ambition, through which companies like DP World and P&O Ferries that are motivated to do so can drive a coach and horses. If they can complicate their contracts in ways that are not covered by our law, they can dismiss people by not giving them appropriate notice, or any notice in this case, and not consulting with unions as they would otherwise be required to do, and then replace them with low-paid, apparently unskilled or lower-skilled workers on very temporary contracts where they have no continuity of work. The Government must be very worried if they have discovered this, so what are they going to do to make sure that nobody else can drive a coach and horses of this size through the protection of workers, particularly high-skilled and high-paid workers?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I do not feel that this is a systemic problem for the British economy. These are unique circumstances; they apply to the maritime sector where, of course, there is a very global workforce, particularly on the international routes. When you operate in non-territorial waters, the different jurisdictions that can apply are many and varied, as I said earlier, depending on the flag of the vessel and various other factors. So I do not see the issue that the noble Lord is painting as a widespread systemic factor across the economy, but it is something that we will need to be well aware of for maritime purposes. It is the ambition of this Government to build our skills in maritime as a world-leading maritime nation; indeed, our document Maritime 2050 set out how we were going to augment British skills to get them onto British-flagged vessels.

[Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)]

My Lords, I apologise for missing the beginning of the Statement; I hope that the Minister will still allow me to ask my question. I want to push her on freeports. DP World has the second and third-largest ports in the country; two of them are already designated as freeports. Can the Minister assure us that those who are employed in a freeport will have to be paid at least the minimum wage, in England as well as in Scotland?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I do not have any information on the employment status of workers in freeports but, if I can find out any information, I will certainly write to the noble Baroness.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to pursue the issue of pensions, which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, and highlight the question to the Minister: to what extent are the pension arrangements that apply to these workers under threat? Is the company doing this because it is encountering commercial difficulties? Is the covenant to which most company pension schemes rely therefore under any sort of threat? The fact that the pension arrangements are continuing is not sufficient comfort.

It is also important to understand that two pension arrangements are involved here: the P&O scheme and whatever other arrangements that provide pensions for the unfortunate workers who have lost their jobs, and the Merchant Navy Ratings Pension Fund, which is a separate arrangement in which I assume many of those who have been fired have deferred benefits. Because of the way that scheme has operated in the past, P&O potentially owes it a lot of money. There was an implication that pensions are not a problem but the issue bears further investigation and reassurance, both to the House and to the workers involved.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I would be pleased to take that issue away and ensure that we have looked into it in great detail. My understanding is that the employees’ pensions are protected. We are aware of the pension deficit in the Merchant Navy Ratings Pension Fund; P&O Ferries will need to pay what it owes.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, presumably it is the gift of the Government to award these licences for P&O to operate to various destinations. Will the Government look carefully at the possibility of rescinding those licences, or, when they come up for renewal, at all possibilities of other carriers being used to replace P&O, so that, in other words, its future in this country, and that of DP World, is finished?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

In these circumstances, we have to think carefully about taking steps such as those outlined by the noble Viscount. I am not aware that we would impose licence conditions as stringent as the ones he potentially proposes. As I said, I am conscious of the fact that well over 1,000 people still work for P&O Ferries. I would very much like them to have a successful career, hopefully with an organisation that takes a step back and learns its lessons, and then reapproaches the market with the sort of costumer-facing and employee-facing attitude that this Government want to see.

Motor Vehicles (Compulsory Insurance) Bill

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 18th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Robathan for bringing forward this Bill, which, as he noted, has already had a successful passage through the other place, and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for his considered and thoughtful contribution. There is not much more that could be said about the Bill, but I am here as the Government and so I will put our view on record.

This is an important issue, and the Government have been clear since 2014 that they do not agree with the European Court of Justice’s ruling in the Vnuk case. That is why the Government support the Bill. The Vnuk decision created an unnecessary extension of motor insurance to private land, as well as to a potentially greater range of vehicles that could include everything from motorsports to agricultural and light vehicles. The excessive liabilities that this would place on the insurance industry and the potential increases to motorist’s insurance premiums are simply unacceptable and unnecessary. These liabilities and potential increases are not trivial. As noble Lords have pointed out, the Government expect that it could cost the industry about £2 billion a year.

Furthermore, if Vnuk had been implemented in full, it would have had a catastrophic impact on the motorsports industry. Drivers would have been likely to be required to purchase motor insurance to compensate injury caused to other drivers, stewards and spectators. Motorsports in the UK are safe and highly regulated. Employers’ liability and public liability already provide a high level of protection. Adding a motor insurance requirement would have brought little benefit at a very high cost—some £458 million per year—had Vnuk been implemented.

Stakeholders have consistently informed us that this would have been prohibitively expensive for the sector, effectively making most of the sector unviable. The sector turns over almost £3 billion annually and generates full-time employment for around 38,000 people and part-time work for a further 100,000 people.

This is why we announced in February 2021 that we will remove the effects of Vnuk from GB law. We said that this would include removing the associated financial liability imposed on the Motor Insurers’ Bureau via the decision in the England and Wales Court of Appeal case of Lewis v Tindale.

I should note that colleagues in Northern Ireland are also progressing legislation in this area, and the Motor Vehicles (Compulsory Insurance) Bill completed its legislative passage in the Assembly earlier in March and is expected to become law by May this year.

There are other positive elements to the Bill. It will ensure that there is consistency across GB and, if the Northern Ireland Bill becomes law, which looks extremely likely, across the UK, which would be very welcome. It also heads off potentially enormous enforcement complications. Had we implemented Vnuk, the police would potentially have been required to monitor newly in scope vehicles never intended to go anywhere other than someone’s garden. The difficulty in gaining access to sites of collisions on private land may have led to the need for additional police powers and could also have had the practical effect of lowering the enforcement rate of uninsured vehicles and encouraging crime.

Implementing Vnuk would have meant that a huge range of newly in scope vehicles would suddenly have been required to be registered on the DVLA database, with license plates required—imagine having to register and stick a license plate on your ride-on lawnmower.

Turning to the questions from the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, I will write to him with further details because I sense that I probably do not have full answers to his questions, and they are very good ones. When we were a member of the EU, the Government continued to work on implementing the binding Vnuk judgment, which would have required very complex changes to our law. While the Government have always been clear about our dislike of Vnuk because of its significant negative impact, we have been equally clear that we had a legal obligation to change the law to reflect Vnuk, and we took a number of steps to respect those obligations. This included a consultation in 2016, which analysed the implications of the ruling and explored policy options. In parallel, we negotiated with the EU over what form the binding Vnuk judgment would take in its translation into the 2009 EU motor insurance directive. As soon as the transition period ended, the Government moved quickly to address this issue, but the pandemic and other challenges have combined to impose unique pressures on the Government, and resources have needed to be deployed accordingly. That is why I am so pleased that this Bill is likely to get the support of your Lordships’ House today.

On the second area that the noble Lord raised, I am afraid I will have to go back to Hansard and read his question about the £50 and whether it applies to the previous EU law or the current proposed EU law. I will write to him with more details.

On the phrase “real reduction”—rather than any reduction—of course, in any of these circumstances there will always be very small considerations. You could say, “Ah, but what about this and what about that?” That is why the Government are very pleased that we can look at those circumstances, now that we are outside the EU. We will keep our regulations relating to insurance under review, because we are always looking to improve the protection of victims and to improve safety, and will consider what else we might do should any gaps become clear. But it is the case that the Vnuk judgment resulted in an overbearing requirement for insurance in areas and on vehicles that it should not have.

The Bill does not have retrospective effect, and it will come into force two months following Royal Assent. All the provisions in the Bill will comprehensively remove the effect of Vnuk and Lewis from GB law. For these reasons, the Government support the Bill and welcome the great progress that it has made to date.

Payments to Train Operating Companies

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 15th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Snape]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what estimate they have made of the impact on train services of a 10 per cent reduction in payments from the Department for Transport to train operating companies.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the department has no plans to reduce payments to train operating companies by 10% and has not assessed the impact such a reduction would have on train services. As noble Lords would expect, we have asked operators to provide credible, efficient and sustainable business plans which will deliver reliable and resilient train services that adapt to passengers’ evolving needs and drive value for taxpayers.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister accept that the twin attacks of a 3.8% increase in rail fares, the highest in almost a decade, together with any reduction in subsidies—I would still like to know exactly how much the Government are prepared to put forward towards our rail industry in the next financial year—will lead to reduced numbers of passengers travelling by train and more congestion and pollution on our roads? Surely that is not the way forward as regards the Government’s carbon reduction targets.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are very focused on making sure that the services we provide for passengers meet their needs. Ridership at the current time is around just under two-thirds of what it was pre-pandemic. There may have been substantial and enduring change, so we are working with the train operating companies, asking them to look very carefully at timetables, remove duplications where possible and look for savings and efficiencies. At the end of the day, we need to provide services that meet passengers’ needs, and they need to be punctual and reliable.

[Lord Austin of Dudley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, if the Government are not cutting subsidies for the train operating companies, can the Minister tell me why services on the west coast main line have deteriorated so badly over the past year or so? Trains are often cancelled, frequently overcrowded and often late. I never thought I would be saying, “Bring back Branson”, but services under Avanti appear to be markedly worse than they were previously. What are the Government going to do to improve the situation?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

In the broader scope of things, Great British Railways will be developing the whole industry strategic plan; the call for evidence for that has now closed. We are also asking each train operating company to produce annual business plans, which will streamline the passenger offer, make sure demand is actually met and in balance with the supply, remove duplication, as I said, and ensure that operations are as efficient as possible.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

It is clear that government demand in savings running into many millions of pounds will result in cuts in Network Rail’s maintenance budget. We have already seen what a casual approach to Network Rail and the use of outside contractors can lead to in the light of previous accidents at Ladbroke Grove and Potters Bar, and a recent report into the train crash at Stonehaven in 2020 found that a drainage system wrongly built by Carillion, which subsequently went bust, and left unchecked by Network Rail led to the crash. The Rail Accident Investigation Bureau said that the tragedy was

“a reminder how potentially dangerous Britain’s volatile weather can be.”

How did the Government come to the conclusion that now is an appropriate time to make major cuts in maintenance roles on our railways, and will they now reconsider their decision in the interests of safety, which should be the paramount consideration, rather than financial considerations?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Safety is, of course, the priority for everybody who works in the railways, and the tragedy at Stonehaven is deeply regrettable. The Government have no intention of diminishing the work we do on safety and maintenance—it is extremely important—but we must look for efficiencies within the system, because we have seen this significant reduction in demand, we must make sure that we protect the taxpayers’ investment, and that is what we are doing.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, as other noble Lords have mentioned, the 3.8% increase in rail fares simply adds to the financial pressure on families at this difficult time. Does the Minister accept that, now that the Government have ended the franchise system, with revenue from fares going straight to the Treasury, it is entirely in the Government’s hands what policy they choose to use in future to attract passengers back on to the railways? Does she accept that, for environmental reasons, it is essential that lower fares are used to attract passengers?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Of course we would like to keep fares as low as possible, but we also need to support crucial investment and pave the way for financial sustainability for the system as a whole. When we took the decision on regulated fares, we looked at inflation and chose to peg it to July’s RPI, which resulted in an increase of 3.8%. Of course, it could have been much higher had we used an RPI from a later month. We also delayed the introduction of the increase by two months, which was particularly beneficial for those buying annual season tickets. There are other ways we can encourage people back to the trains, and we are doing as much as we can, working with the train operators. For example, the Book with Confidence intervention was extended to 31 March. That allows customers to rebook their tickets if they are unable to travel, without administration fees.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Non-Afl)]

Can the Minister draw our attention to any statistical evidence for the notion, which is counterintuitive, that a vicious circle is not developing here between cutting services and raising fares?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I do not accept that at all. It is right that we ensure that our services meet the needs of passengers and are punctual and reliable, and that the contribution from the national taxpayer is appropriate. There will be areas of duplication and areas where efficiencies can be found. The Williams-Shapps Plan for Rail states that in five years’ time, savings of about £1.5 billion should be available after simplification and efficiencies. Those are the things we are trying to drive out of the system. We want passenger services to be as good as we can possibly make them because we really would like people to travel on our railways.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend have a view on the level of unionisation on the railways and what are the consequences of it for the cost of staff and pay?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend makes a very important point. All noble Lords will have seen that there is a level of unrest among the unions that represent those working on the railways. Sometimes I feel that their behaviour might be potentially counterproductive in the long term. For example, we have strikes at the moment on the London Underground where, because of the pay deal that was reached a couple of years ago, the staff will be getting a pay increase of 8%.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

Can the Minister explain how raising fares and cutting subsidies to the train operating companies contributes to one of the key aims of levelling up, which is to improve public transport? I ask her to think about Yorkshire especially in this context.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I am always thinking about Yorkshire. The noble Baroness raises an important point. There is an amount of money that will be going into the system, which will be used to service what is at the moment a lower number of passengers. That is where we must get the balance right. We must work with industry to support it on the initiatives and boost demand, also ensuring that the services are there when they are needed. The increase of 3.8%, compared with what inflation is currently, is not significant, given that we could have had a more significant increase had we used an RPI from a later month.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I press the Minister a little more on the question asked by my noble friend Lord Rosser about Network Rail’s costs. I understand from many in the industry that Network Rail has been told to cut its costs by 40% in the coming year. That seems an enormous amount, compared with what it is doing at the moment and the need for safety. Can she confirm whether that is true or completely wrong?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I do not have that figure with me, but I will certainly write to the noble Lord with further details around Network Rail’s expectations for the coming years.

[Lord Walney (CB)]

Does the reduction in passengers, which the Minister says may well be structural, not further endanger the investment case for HS2?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I do not think that is the case. Obviously there are various scenarios which we consider when we look at HS2. It is a very long-term strategic system. It connects many of our major cities across the country and, provided that we get local transport integrated with that investment with HS2, it will be successful.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

There was an article in the paper this morning about closing many ticket offices. Is this likely to happen? If so, is that a better service for the passengers on our rail network?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Ticketing and fare reform is a key part of what we hope to do with Great British Railways. The leadership there will help with the mass of complicated fares which currently exist. We will be supplementing that with £360 million of investment in fares, ticketing and retailing. We will deliver contactless pay-as-you-go in 700 stations in urban areas across the country, including 400 stations in the north, and we will provide digital ticketing across the network and upgrade ticket vending machines. Obviously we will have to look at the number of ticket offices available, but we will also ensure that people get the level of customer support that they need.

Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) (Amendment) Regulations 2022

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 14th March 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 24 January be approved.

Relevant document: 29th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Considered in Grand Committee on 9 March.

Motion agreed.

Electric Vehicles: Charging Points

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 14th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to increase the number of charging points for electric vehicles.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government and industry have supported the installation of over 29,500 publicly available charging devices, including over 5,400 rapid devices. The Government have also supported the installation of over 300,000 charge points in homes and businesses and have announced over £1.3 billion to further accelerate the rollout of charging infrastructure.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that information. However, do the Government accept that if the target of switching to electric cars is to be met, at least two things must happen? When an electrically powered car driver goes any long distance, he or she is nervous that they cannot charge to come back. Even more importantly, even in areas where there are plenty of charging points, they are nearly always taken up by cars that are not charging. That is a complaint from electric car drivers. The charging points are there in parts of London, but they cannot get to them because other people are using them as parking spaces. Can we do something about that?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I recognise the point raised by the noble Lord; there has been some media coverage about that recently and we are looking at what we can do. However, people are never more than 25 miles away from a rapid charger on the strategic road network, which is particularly good for long distance journeys. The Government have done an enormous amount of consultation over the past year on how we can mandate for new standards and for reliability, ensure that consumers can access support if they have trouble charging, make it easier for consumers to find the right charging point and its availability by publishing open data, and ensure that the costs are published as well, so that consumers can compare the costs of different chargers.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, as we might be working late, I decided to drive in today. The first three public EV chargers were broken. I finally found a free and available fourth. Does the Minister understand that many people who have bought EV cars are now starting to regret it, and can she step away from this market-driven approach to rolling out infrastructure which at present is random, unreliable, and desperately inadequate?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I cannot agree that it is unreliable and desperately inadequate. We cannot control from Whitehall where EV chargers are—that would be utterly mad. We must work with the local delivery partners—the local authorities—and the private sector. At the end of the day, it will be the private sector which puts these charges in place. It will not be Whitehall, so we must ensure that the local authorities have the skills to figure out where their communities need their chargers. We are particularly concerned about those who do not have access to off-street parking, and we will be asking local authorities to focus on those people.

[Baroness Bull (CB)]

My Lords, as a Westminster resident I enjoy access to a fast-growing network of relatively inexpensive and efficient chargers fitted into existing lamp-posts, in a partnership between the city council and ubitricity. How many towns and cities benefit from this very practical approach? What can the Government do to incentivise these partnerships between local authorities and commercial providers?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right: there are some excellent interventions. That is why we must upskill the local authorities and increase their knowledge of what is going on. The Department for Transport has funded the Energy Saving Trust. It runs a local government support programme and provides free impartial advice. There are webinars on best practice, particularly in rural areas, and we are about to publish the EV infrastructure guide, a technical guide which will cover the sorts of things which the noble Baroness talks about. It will enable local authorities to find the right solution for their area.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, how many charging points are to be found within the Palace of Westminster and available to noble Lords and noble Baronesses?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Sadly there are not enough. I understand that there are some available in the car park for another place. As I have said previously, it is not for the Government to install charging points in the Palace of Westminster, although I encourage the authorities to do so.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

My Lords, about a third of households have no access to off-street parking or a personal garage and miss out on lower costs from charging cars using cheaper overnight electricity. While 76% of the richest households have access to off-street parking, the same is true for only just over half of the poorest fifth of households. Put another way, only 51% of private renters, 38% of housing association tenants, and 26% of local authority renters, have access to off-street parking, compared with 81% of homeowners. What do the Government intend to do, and by when, to address this charging divide which works against the less well off, and to reduce the disparity in prices across the charging network? We have heard a glowing picture from the Government just now about what is happening. They say that they have spent a lot of money. It seems to have been a lot of money that has created a charging divide, and from what the Minister has said, it is largely the fault of local authorities. I think that it is the fault of the Government.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have already taken action—

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

What is it?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

One moment; the EV home-charge scheme, which the noble Lord will know was previously focused on single-unit owner-occupied households, is now being closed to those households and is focusing entirely on those people who are in rented or leasehold accommodation, specifically without their own designated parking. We are switching that very important source of funding to ensure that those who do not have the luxury of off-street parking and home ownership can get a charger.

[Lord Flight (Con)]

My Lords, can the Minister please confirm that users of the new charging points will be paying for the electricity they consume? I was surprised to learn from one London borough that initially, the electricity was provided free when they installed charging points.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I would have thought that the users would be paying for the electricity that they consume, but if people want to offer electricity for free, they are perfectly at liberty to do so.

[Lord Walney (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister recognise that the reliability of the charging points, particularly on the motorway network, is a real problem? Has she had a chance to consider the idea that I put forward a couple of months back about increasing the penalties on providers, so that they are properly punished and incentivised to provide a decent service to EV motorists?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

This links into the measures that we announced in December 2021, when we said we were looking at a mandate for new standards for reliability. Obviously, if there are new standards for reliability, there will have to be penalties if companies do not meet those standards.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, the increasing number of charging points for electric vehicles and the demand for heating homes through heat pumps will add quite a lot of extra demand on the national grid, which is currently ill equipped to meet it. What urgent attention is being paid to managing demand—for example, by increasing insulation in homes and perhaps by reducing speed limits?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, we recognise that there will be an increased demand on energy infrastructure, both overall and particularly during peak periods. We are confident that the existing operators will be able to meet that demand, but of course we are working with the sector to ensure that it is efficient and sustainable. One of the things we are doing, for example, is looking at V2X technology, which is when you export energy from a vehicle back into the grid when it is not being used. Indeed, we have invested £30 million of funding in V2G projects—from the vehicle to the grid—and that is one of the ways in which we will ensure that our energy networks can cope.

[Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)]

My Lords, the aforementioned electricity lamp post system is of course excellent when there is not another car parked there that is not charging. The reason it is excellent is that every model of car can use the lamp post. Are the Government considering legislation such that there is complete compatibility in the charging stations, so that every model of car can use every charging station, which is not the case at the moment?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government take the issue of interoperability of charging points very seriously. We are seeing the market moving towards a smaller number of varying charges, and we will consider how we take that forward.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, I am just old enough, as the House was reminded earlier, to remember us being told by my Government what a great idea it was to move to diesel. My question to the Minister is about electricity consumption. Given the commitment to all-electric cars by the middle of the 2030s, plus cryptocurrency, plus the exponential growth of smart technology, plus 5G—I could go on but I will not—can the Minister assure us that a very solid impact assessment has been made of the aggregate demand of these technological developments on the requirement for electricity generation in 15 years’ time? Can she tell us where it is going to come from?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Unfortunately, the noble Lord’s question goes a little bit beyond my brief today, and indeed beyond my department. However, I will be very happy to speak to my colleagues in BEIS, who have responsibility for energy demand in the future, and ask them to write to him to set out exactly how the forecasts are being made and how they will be met.

Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) (Amendment) Regulations 2022

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 9th March 2022 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) (Amendment) Regulations 2022.

Relevant document: 29th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move that these regulations be considered. This instrument amends legislation governing the goods vehicle operator licensing regimes in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The changes must be implemented, as they are commitments included in the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement, or TCA, which come into effect during 2022. The changes contained in this SI reflect new requirements for transporting goods to, through or within Europe. These changes will also come into force for EU member states by May 2022. They ensure continued and reciprocal access for goods transport between the UK and the EU.

The primary objective of this instrument is the extension of the goods vehicle operator licensing regime to include some light goods vehicles, or LGVs, such as vans or pickup trucks. The vehicles involved weigh between 2.5 and 3.5 tonnes in maximum laden weight, either alone or as combined weight when used with a trailer, and operate internationally for hire or reward. These regulations also introduce minor changes to the wider goods vehicle operator licensing regime, affecting operators of heavy goods vehicles, or HGVs.

There are three principal areas of change within the instrument. First, these regulations will potentially bring an estimated 21,000 LGVs, spread across 4,200 operators, into the scope of the operator licensing regime. From 21 May 2022, if these vehicles are used to transport goods to, through or within the EU, including Ireland, they will need to be listed on an operator licence. However, to be clear, these changes do not affect vehicles used domestically. Furthermore, they will affect only commercial hire or reward goods transport and not, for example, moving equipment or materials used by an individual or organisation in the ordinary course of business internationally using a van.

Secondly, these regulations will create a distinction in the existing operator licensing regime between a heavy goods vehicle operator licence and a light goods vehicle operator licence. To avoid imposing a disproportionate burden, we have chosen to extend to LGVs only those aspects of the HGV regime required by the TCA. However, taking this approach has meant that the instrument is long—perhaps longer than might be expected

Thirdly, the regulations will introduce changes relating to the role of a transport manager, which is a requirement of operator licensing. This will be required for the new LGV operator licences. To reduce this immediate burden, we are allowing a temporary exemption from the requirement to hold a transport manager certificate of professional competence for those who can show that they had been managing light goods vehicle fleets continuously for 10 years in the period up to 20 August 2020, as specified in the TCA. For those who qualify, the application service is already open and is intended to close in May 2024.

Once granted, these “acquired rights” will be valid for up to three years, expiring on 20 May 2025. The exemption is time-limited to ensure that standards of professionalism within the industry are maintained, while also allowing a transition period to enable qualifications to be undertaken. The limits applicable to external transport managers for HGVs, namely a maximum of 50 vehicles between up to four operators, will also apply to LGVs. Transport managers must also reside in the jurisdiction, UK or EU, where the fleet they are managing is based, as per the TCA. There is a transitionary provision ensuring that those who live and work in different jurisdictions can continue in their current jobs.

At this point, I draw the Committee’s attention to an error in these regulations, leading to a disconnection between the policy intention and the legislation as laid. While the instrument is correct in so far as it is legally effective, it goes beyond the policy intentions. The SI was intended to apply only to the operation of goods vehicles, but one provision inadvertently also applies to the operation of passenger vehicles. In doing so, it disrupts the Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981, making the regulation of the industry more complex. As a result, we laid a second, correcting instrument using the draft negative procedure on 25 February. This is of course subject to the views of the sifting committees and, while I hope it will not be necessary, the correcting instrument may need to be debated if it is decided that the affirmative procedure should be followed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, as ever, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for their contributions to this DfT SI. Once again, I express my regret that an error has occurred; as the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, pointed out, the department is very aware of recent errors. This SI was drafted long before the reform programme within the department was under way, and I shall do my absolute best to ensure that errors do not happen again in future.

I shall briefly cover some of the questions raised. My noble friend Lady McIntosh wanted reassurance that the flows of traffic would be maintained. Indeed, this is precisely what we are doing here—making sure that measures in the EU are reciprocated in the UK, so that there is a level playing field and international traffic can continue as we would expect.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, made quite a significant point about this being linked to the TCA, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said that it was the minimum required—doing what was set out in the TCA. The noble Lord asked whether we felt obliged to do only what is in the TCA. At this moment in time, to be honest, that is absolutely right. Standing here as a Transport Minister, I would not want to put this additional burden on the domestic industry knowing what is going on in the logistics sector, so we are in a situation whereby we are doing what we are required to do in the TCA to maintain the flow of international traffic. I am not considering extending this domestically; I do not think that the logistics sector needs it right now.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, said that some of the organisations which responded to the consultation wanted it. Some of them did indeed: a handful. I also note that there are 4,200 operators which operate internationally and of course many tens of thousands more which operate just domestically. I am not entirely sure that that is a representative sample of people who would want this sort of regulation extended domestically at what is a challenging time for our nation.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, mentioned Northern Ireland. She is right that operators in Northern Ireland will need to be licensed. We have had many conversations with Ministers and their officials in the Department for Infrastructure in Northern Ireland and they have an entire communications strategy setting out how to make sure that their operators are fully aware of the requirement. However, the major courier companies in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland tend to have separate distribution networks within each particular area. Therefore, parcels tend to be moved in bulk through the land border and then more localised distribution networks are used. But it is the case that anybody going across the border in Northern Ireland would need to have one of these new licences.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, then talked about it being a much more complex situation and could people cope, et cetera. I do not see that as an issue because these international journeys are happening already and transport managers already exist. What we are doing is potentially formalising the role of those transport managers that already exist in the system. What is our alternative here? We could have done nothing and that would have stopped all the international journeys, which I am fairly sure no noble Lord would want to see happening.

I think we have reached the right balance here. I accept that transport managers who have many years of experience will now need to take their certificate of professional competence. That will be a cost, probably, to their business. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked how much it costs. It depends on the sort of training one does: it can be online, materials or face to face. For an HGV transport manager, it goes up to about £1,300. We would have thought for LGVs it would be lower than that but, of course, this is an industry that will grow and develop as these transport manager qualifications come on stream. It is something that we will keep an eye on, but it is a one-off cost to train somebody in some skills to get a licence. It will be a burden on business, but not an insurmountable one, I think. The lack of qualified or potentially qualified people is not something that has been particularly raised by industry. I think the cost is a greater concern because people see that there is a cost of having the licences.

The noble Baroness asked how we are going to communicate with the industry. I have quite a lot of information about that because we have done a lot. We started communicating about this to make sure that we hit both the large and the smaller operators back in August last year. We have had advertising campaigns on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and government channels—DVSA Direct has been doing industry updates—and obviously GOV.UK has set out exactly what is required. We employed a commercial agency and worked with partners such as Biffa, John Hudson Trailers and DAF Trucks and Moto, Roadchef and Welcome Break motorway services. I think they know. We have done everything we possibly can to make sure that people who operate LGVs internationally know that they will need a transport manager if they have a single journey or more.

Traffic commissioners are already well versed in the provision of licences, the maintenance of the fit and proper test, and taking to tribunal or equivalent those people who do not meet the fit and proper test. I am content that they are appropriately resourced to ensure not only that the licences can be issued in a timely fashion but that the licensees are fit and proper and are held to account if they are not. However, should it not be the case that licences are issued in time, we are looking at providing interim licences at a cost of £68, which will tide over whatever bow wave of applications comes through. I believe we have the right arrangements in place, but I would not want any operator to be held up because it does not have a licence, whether an interim licence or a full licence.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, mentioned environmental issues and of course we take them seriously, but we will look at them on their merits and at the right time. As I said, they will probably not be at the top of my inbox right now, but we are considering all manner of environmental interventions on vehicle standards. There will be more on that in due course.

One reason why there is no urgency to extend these regulations to LGVs domestically is that from an economic perspective it would not be brilliant, but another is because HGVs need a firm operating licensing system because the vehicles are far more dangerous. They have strict maintenance regimes. It is essential that those vehicles are in tip-top condition and are kept by fit and proper people. The LGV system is slightly lighter-touch in that, for example, the level of financial standing an operator must have is less than for HGVs. The system is slightly different from that for HGVs.

This is my last point, I promise. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, said something about the SI not being in force and asked how many applications we have had so far. If he does not mind, I shall go back to Hansard to try to understand the point a bit better and will write. In the meantime, I commend these regulations to the Committee.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

One of the environmental aspects that are being disapplied by these regulations is the requirement to have an appropriate place to park vehicles. The Government have made great play in recent months of the importance of having good facilities for lorry drivers. Does the same argument not apply to the drivers of these vehicles, who might be part of the same workforce? Is this not cutting across the Government’s declared policy on improving conditions for drivers?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Baroness is covering a point that I deleted from my briefing, sadly, because I did not think it would come up, and therefore it is not at the top of my mind. There are two issues here. One is where the vehicles are parked overnight in storage by the operator and the other is where they are parked when they are on the road and making journeys. I will write to the noble Baroness with more details on that because unfortunately I do not have them to hand.

Motion agreed.

Bus Improvement Plans

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 8th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the adequacy of the funding available for Bus Improvement Plans.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, our national bus strategy asks that all English local transport authorities outside London publish bus service improvement plans—BSIPs—setting out local visions for the step change in bus service that is needed, driven by what passengers and would-be passengers want. At the Budget, we announced £1.2 billion of new dedicated funding for BSIPs, part of over £3 billion of new spend on buses over this Parliament.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, of course, the amount of money already announced is welcome, but there is a yawning gap before we get to the £3 billion the Government announced. Applications for funding from local authorities have so far, I believe, totalled £7 billion. Is that more or less the correct figure? If it is, can she tell us exactly how the money was allocated for the first tranche of funding and what criteria it was based on, and reassure us that the process was fully objective? Can she also tell us when the money will be announced for the rest of the promised funding? As it is International Women’s Day, I bring the House’s attention to the fact that women are overly and disproportionately dependent on bus travel. It is very important that the Government support public transport at this time.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am trying to piece that all together. I think that what the noble Baroness refers to as the first wave is perhaps the places we mentioned in the levelling up White Paper. Those were just indications of the places we believed had strong enough BSIPs to merit investment allocation; further places for investment are still under consideration. We have been working very hard on reviewing and understanding the plans we have received. I have to be honest: some are absolutely excellent, and others need a bit of work. We are now approaching the stage where the Minister will make the spending decision, and we anticipate that the places announced in the levelling up White Paper will be included, as will many other places.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, this Question is fundamental to the levelling up agenda. In certain areas of the north-east, for example, buses are so infrequent that they fail to meet the needs of the public and are therefore not used. This compares poorly with, say, London, where public buses are very frequent and obviously very well used. Does the Minister therefore agree with me that the provision of a more frequent bus service will increase usage by meeting the needs of the public and thereby increase revenue and mitigate the costs?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

How could I disagree with that? That is absolutely right, but there are lots of factors in terms of increasing frequency, and part of that involves local authorities putting in bus priority measures so that buses can make it through congested areas. The noble Lord mentioned the levelling up White Paper and the importance of buses in that regard. I have to agree. We did say that by 2030, local public transport connectivity across the country will be significantly closer to the standards of London. We mean that, and this is a good step along the way.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend update the House on the position of concessionary fares for buses, and will she join with me in saying how important they are to rural life, enabling people to go about their everyday activities such as shopping, visiting hospitals and attending doctors’ appointments?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I absolutely agree with my noble friend, and there is an awful lot that we will work together on with the local authorities, versus what they have in their BSIPs, to encourage those who do have concessionary passes to come back to bus, because we miss them terribly. Regarding concessionary payments, we published concessionary travel recovery guidance—late last year, I think, but definitely pre-omicron—that looked at how we are going to get concessionary fares matched up to passholders. At the moment, there is a discrepancy because we are paying concessionary amounts out in full. We are looking at that again to make sure it takes omicron into account, but I agree with my noble friend that concessionary passholders are welcome back to bus any day.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

Last week I asked for confirmation that

“none of the emergency support or recovery grants for buses has been taken out of the £3 billion for buses and bus services by 2025 announced under the Bus Back Better strategy, and that all the emergency support and recovery grants are in addition to that £3 billion”.

The reply was:

“The Government have committed to spend £3 billion over the course of this Parliament, so I suggest to the noble Lord that, when we get to the end of this Parliament, we do a totting up.”—[Official Report, 1/3/22; col. 681.]


For the benefit of the less academically gifted, like me, did that answer mean that all the emergency support and recovery grants are or are not in addition to the £3 billion under the Bus Back Better strategy—or is that a question to which the Secretary of State also has no idea of the answer?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, we committed to £3 billion of new spend over the course of this Parliament, and that is what we will deliver. In addition, the noble Lord will recall that my noble friend Lord McLoughlin asked a question about other parts of funding within the system. There will be a letter in the Library, which I will also share with noble Lords who have spoken in today’s debate, setting out exactly all the different funding streams available for buses. They are significant. Some are very long standing, some came from Covid and others will be part of the funding from BSIPs and CRSTSs, et cetera.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, noble Lords have asked about how the Government are to allocate resources to the different regions. Given that this seems to be done in some mysterious way that bears no resemblance to need or the levelling-up agenda, can the Minister say exactly how allocations will be made under this funding?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Yes, I can. There will be probably three different tranches of funding. Some areas—those that produced the best BSIPs, matching all the stated outcomes set out in the national bus strategy—will get transformation funding. A second tranche of local authorities will go into the improvement category, whereby they are on their way to preparing the sort of BSIPs that take into account all the outcomes from the NBS. Other areas will probably need more support, in terms of capability and capacity, so that they can fully understand how buses can meet the needs of their communities. We understand that no place must be left behind. We hope to provide support to areas where the BSIPs are not fully developed but where there is huge potential to do so.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, can we have a straight answer to this question? How much have local transport authorities asked for under the Government’s bus service improvement plans? Is the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, right that only £1.2 billion is available for these plans? Are we once again to put up with the Prime Minister’s sloganising? “Bus Back Better” bears no resemblance to reality if the figures the noble Baroness gave are accurate.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, we asked the local transport authorities to be ambitious and, goodness gracious, they were. That is absolutely right. Indeed, I am not sure I have ever done a competition in the Department for Transport that has not been significantly oversubscribed. In aligning the amount of money we have, we have to really look at how that money will be used and whether it meets the requirements in the national bus strategy. I will mention no names at all but, for example, one local authority bid to build a new road from the bus funding. That does not necessarily strike me as exactly what we need out of the bus funding. My officials are making sure that the areas we fund with taxpayers’ funding get the best bang for our buck.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Is not all this bidding for money a bit demeaning for local authorities? Would it not be much better to give them powers over all transport in their areas to get on with the job, and give them the money to do it?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

To a certain extent, that is the direction of travel we are moving in— particularly for the large urban areas. For example, Manchester, Liverpool and West Yorkshire—the combined authorities—receive pots of funding that they can use in a very integrated way to establish their integrated transport networks. CRSTSs, which are part of the money we are giving to places such as Manchester, match up with funding from BSIPs, so there is a lot of interrelationship between the different pots of funding. I take the noble Lord’s point, but we have to balance that with making sure we get really good value for money for the taxpayer.

Taxis and Private Hire Vehicles (Safeguarding and Road Safety) Bill

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 4th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I too thank my noble friend Lord Borwick for bringing forward this Bill, which the Government wholeheartedly support. I am also so grateful for the support expressed for the Bill by my noble friend Lord Holmes, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam. I think we would all pay tribute to my honourable friend Peter Gibson, the Member for Darlington, for successfully steering the Bill through from the other place to your Lordships’ House.

My noble friend Lord Borwick, with his incredible experience in the area of taxis—I was not aware of quite how much he had done for accessibility and am grateful to my noble friend Lord Holmes for reminding us of that—has very ably set out the purpose of this fairly narrow Bill. As I said, the Government support it and are very keen to see its provisions in place as soon as possible. But I am standing here as the Government and, although we support the Bill, I would like to address a few things in the wider taxi and PHV space.

My noble friend Lord Holmes talked about taxis and PHVs as public transport and, to an extent, the Government agree. We see them as an integral part of the wider transport network. Any good local authority will think incredibly carefully about how these vital services are able to reach people and then drop them off at their destinations, particularly those who are disabled and others who may be vulnerable. Taxis and PHVs are licensed and enforced by over 270 different authorities. Many agree that that is too many and may lead to inconsistencies and a greater risk of failure.

In the levelling-up White Paper which we published on 2 February, we announced that we would explore transferring the responsibility for licensing taxis and PHVs to upper-tier and combined authorities in England. One benefit of reducing the number of licensing authorities from around 276 to just over 80 could be increased consistency in licensing standards. A second would be that licensing would be in the hands of the same authorities that draft local transport plans; I think that makes perfect sense and look forward to progressing those proposals. In the context of such large numbers of licensing authorities, the Government are very focused on consistency in licensing and enforcement and raising standards, particularly with regard to safeguarding across the sector.

In 2017, we commissioned the task and finish group on taxi and private hire vehicle licensing to consider the adequacy and efficiency of the legislation and guidance and to make recommendations to address the priority issues. The Government responded to that report in 2019. We committed to legislate when parliamentary time permits to set national minimum standards in licensing, introduce national enforcement powers and establish a national licensing database to include all driver, vehicle and operator licensing information. That remains our intention.

In the meantime, however, the Government have published the Statutory Taxi and Private Hire Vehicle Standards, which clearly set out what licensing authorities should do to safeguard children and adults. I have written to licensing authorities many times since the publication of the statutory standards to emphasise their importance and ensure that authorities are moving quickly to improve their safeguarding policies. One aspect of the statutory standards strongly recommends the use of information-sharing tools in licensing, specifically the national register of refusals and revocations, also known as NR3. Uptake and use of NR3 has been good and has been growing—I get literally monthly updates, so I can see what is happening—but it is not yet universal. That is why this Bill will help us to make sure that the usage of that or an equivalent database is mandatory. Essentially, the Bill mandates the existing direction of travel to improve safeguarding.

The next step for the department is to update the best practice guidance, and there will be a consultation on that shortly. It will cover licensing, enforcement and accessibility, including a strong recommendation that every driver be required to complete disability awareness training. We recognise that taxis and PHVs are a vital mode of transport for many people with disabilities, and I was appalled to hear about the experience of the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, at her local station. She asked a specific question about the interrelationship between refusing to take a disabled passenger and this Bill. I will write to her on that and other matters that have been raised, because I am looking at the time and I know that I am well over.

Finally, on my noble friend Lord Holmes’ point about taxi access on certain roads, it is true that I am the Minister for TfL and, indeed, the Minister for every highway authority in the country. Local highway authorities are responsible for determining how road space is allocated, and of course they must be responsive to local communities. I encourage anyone who has an issue with what a local highway authority is doing to get in touch with them.

To close, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Borwick. I look forward to the passage of this Bill, and I hope that it can pass into legislation as soon as possible.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I know we are short of time, but I have a brief question for the Minister before she sits down. Regarding authorities for streets such as Tottenham Court Road and other areas that refuse taxis, thus making them inaccessible for disabled people, does she agree that that is a prima facie breach of equalities legislation and their public sector equality duty? I am happy if she wants to write on that subject.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am very grateful to my noble friend for giving me the opportunity to write to him on that.

Bus Services: Covid-19 Emergency Funding

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 1st March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Berkeley, and at his request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I am pleased to confirm that a final tranche of recovery funding for local transport providers, totalling over £150 million over six months, was announced earlier today. This builds on previous funding packages and will support transport operators and local authorities responsible for bus and light rail systems to transition their networks and adapt to new travel patterns as we build back better from the pandemic.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, would the Minister accept that that has rather ruined what would have been a coruscating supplementary on my part? Can I ask her whether she should congratulate my noble friend Lord Berkeley on his perception in tabling this Question in the first place, and can I tell her that this is the first time in nearly half a century that I have received such a positive response from any Minister in any Government? Perhaps I may ask her to be specific as far as the West Midlands is concerned. Can she offer some comfort to the West Midlands Combined Authority, which estimates a deficit of £50 million in its transport budget for the next financial year?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am always grateful to receive a Question from the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, but today it was a particularly good one. We will be working with all the local transport authorities as they not only put in place their best service improvement plans, but also make best use of this funding. We have service levels running at approximately 90% while current patronage is approximately 77% and within that there are some quite significant regional variations. For example, we know that in the West Midlands people use buses more than elsewhere. Particularly with the Commonwealth Games coming up, we are very cognisant that we need to keep local transport running.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on today’s announcement and the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. Buses matter a great deal, especially to the elderly and to poorer travellers. Does my noble friend agree that we could do more with technology by drawing on best practice and smartphone ticketing to link buses and coaches to each other as well as to railway stations, trams and city centres, thereby improving value for money and making public transport more competitive?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend raises a very important point which is at the front of the mind of the department: how do we make the best use of technology? It is not necessarily for the Government to step in and develop the technology themselves. However, there are different ways that we see various app providers being able to integrate with multiple transport modes. What we can do is provide them with the data they need for their apps. This is why, a couple of years ago, we launched the bus open data service which puts information out there in an open fashion concerning, for example, routes, live locations of buses, and fares and ticketing systems—the latter can sometimes be very complicated. We hope to simplify that, and we think that the apps can help.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, today’s announcement is welcome. However, it would have been even more welcome a few weeks ago because the bus industry desperately needs to be able to plan ahead. Does the Minister accept that the industry faces a perfect storm of declining passenger numbers, rising costs and driver shortages? Uncertainty over government funding was an unnecessary additional factor in that. The industry says that it needs over £600 million in order to recover from the Covid situation before we look at the Bus Back Better plans. Does the Minister recognise that this figure is needed?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

No, I do not. I have not heard the £600 million figure—that is a fair amount. However, I have had numerous conversations with the industry over the months and years during which I have been in post. Some may call it lobbying, and it is very welcome. We have good conversations, and we understand what the challenges are. About 18 months ago I received many questions in your Lordships’ House about how we were going to take into account changes in travel demand as we come out of the pandemic. That is exactly what we must do now. Not every area is going to be the same; there will be changes to patterns of travel. This money will help us to make this transition to what a new future looks like for the bus network.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my interests in the register as chairman of Transport for the North. I welcome the announcement which my noble friend has made today. Will she also give some thought to bringing together all the different kinds of grants made to the bus industry—be it from her department or from the department for levelling up—to show the Government’s commitment to the industry, while also saying that we must move forward with best practice? We are already seeing that in many different cities across the country.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is quite right. It is extraordinary how many different streams of funding go into the whole bus network system. This can be to the operators directly, or to local authorities—some of which comes from the Department for Transport and some from the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities. I will respond to my noble friend with a letter which draws this all together. It is a substantial sum of money. Combined with some of the money we are putting into the infrastructure of major urban centres—for example, CRSTS—there is a lot of money going into buses, and we need to ensure that we make the best use of it.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

Will the Minister confirm that none of the emergency support or recovery grants for buses has been taken out of the £3 billion for buses and bus services by 2025 announced under the Bus Back Better strategy, and that all the emergency support and recovery grants are in addition to that £3 billion?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government have committed to spend £3 billion over the course of this Parliament, so I suggest to the noble Lord that, when we get to the end of this Parliament, we do a totting up.

[Lord Beith (LD)]

My Lords, are any funds for buses and trams on Tyneside being withheld until authorities north and south of the river agree to form a single authority?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Yes, there is the question of that; the Government are not withholding the CRSTS funding per se, but we need the governance arrangements to be put into place, such that we are able to distribute that funding to them. We believe that discussions are continuing well.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

I am not sure of the latest figures, but it used to be that something like 70% of the funding for buses came from the public purse. Is it not time that we regulated the buses again to make sure that the taxpayer gets value for money?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

To a certain extent, I think that is what we are doing, but perhaps not in the way that the noble Lord would expect. The requirement that we set out in the national bus strategy is that every single local transport authority has to have an enhanced partnership, which brings together the right people—the bus operators and local authorities. Managing it from Whitehall is definitely not going to work, but managing it from a local authority level, where local authorities can provide local services for local people in collaboration with bus operators, is what we are hoping to see. We know that the enhanced partnerships will be available in the early part of this year.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

Will the Minister give us an estimate of when the majority of buses, particularly in city centres, will be decarbonised, running on hydrogen or electricity, so we can get away from these toxic fumes from large quantities of buses in city centres?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord. The Government are absolutely committed to pump-priming the zero-emission bus sector. We have £525 million in the kitty to deliver new zero-emission buses. The noble Lord will have seen that the order for Coventry has gone in for 130 buses, and we have announced £71 million for five other areas, for 335 buses, and the orders will go in very soon. But what is the point of all this money—and it is an astonishing amount of money? It is such that we develop the market so that the economics mean that for a bus operator it makes sense to choose a zero-emission bus in future, because it is cheaper and more reliable and provides the level of service that we would expect.

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

Do the Government believe that they have got value for money from the very large grants to Transport for London, given the utter chaos today, which has been met with something of a shrug? Buses are unable to move because of many unnecessary cycle lanes, London is generally in a very poor state—and no one appears to care.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, this Government really do care about what is happening in London. I think that the strike today is unnecessary; it is self-defeating and will damage the job prospects of those who currently are working in what is, in general terms, an excellent transport system. The most recent deal that we did with Transport for London set out very clearly our expectations of the Mayor of London, given his oversight of TfL, to bring forward its modernisation programme, which totals £730 million, but also to look for further savings of around £400 million. That is a lot of money. How was Transport for London allowed to build up such fat?

E-scooters

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 8th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to introduce a comprehensive policy to deal with the dangers and benefits of e-scooters.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the Department for Transport is considering options for how best to regulate e-scooters and crack down on their illegal use. New measures being considered will be designed to create a much clearer, fit-for-purpose and fully enforceable regime for e-scooters and other micro-mobility devices. This will include robust technical standards and new rules for private and rental e-scooters.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, e-scooters have become a menace and the Government are being too slow either to ban or, as we have heard, regulate them. They are dangerous in design, using up valuable rare metals in battery manufacture, and cause growing numbers of accidents among riders, pedestrians and the disabled, and arising from scooter-induced fires. The defence of the present situation is focused on the relatively small number of regulated trial rentals, not the hundreds of thousands in private ownership with very limited legal use. Can my noble friend the Minister advise the House what early action she proposes to remedy this situation? We need to try harder.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The policy is still under development and I am grateful to my noble friend for highlighting her concerns for our consideration as we develop it going forward. It is very important that we develop a safe, proportionate and flexible regulatory regime. To do that, we need the data from the various trials which are going ahead, the future of transport regulatory call for evidence, ongoing conversations with stakeholders and more research. I reassure my noble friend that we are making progress. I recognise that there is more to be done.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

The Minister describes a very complicated and confusing situation. Is she able to explain to the House where e-scooters can be legally used in England and where they cannot? Will she pass on that information to the police?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Yes, I can explain that. It is illegal to use a private e-scooter on all public land. It is certainly illegal to use one on the pavement or the road. Trials have been set up around the country to develop evidence for future regulatory reform, and, within those trial areas, it is allowable to ride an e-scooter on a road or cycle path. We are working very closely with the police on enforcement; for example, the National Police Chiefs’ Council is developing a national strategy for tackling the illegal use of e-scooters. My officials are working very closely with it on that.

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

My Lords, there is a growing problem with e-scooters being ridden in Northern Ireland illegally and erratically. They are permitted to be driven only on private land. A freedom of information request from the Belfast Telegraph revealed that the PSNI does not hold statistics on the number of fines or cautions issued. However, there is a perception that few, if any, offenders have been prosecuted. Does the Minister agree that addressing this potentially lethal threat to personal safety should be more of a priority for police forces across the United Kingdom, including in Northern Ireland?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord is most likely right that the PSNI does not hold data. Indeed, it is the case that police forces in England do not currently hold data relating specifically to offences by riders of e-scooters because they fall under the category of motor vehicles, and that data is therefore within that. At the moment the Home Office has no plans to introduce a requirement for forces to collect information, but, as the noble Lord set out, it is absolutely key that local police forces develop good action plans for enforcement, following the guidance that will be coming out from the National Police Chiefs’ Council.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, last year, there were 931 casualties of e-scooter accidents— 200 of those were non-riders—and there were three fatalities, yet there is absolutely no reference to e-scooters in the new Highway Code. Does this make the Government derelict in their duty to protect both riders and those who inadvertently cross their path? Does the Minister realise that, by tarrying so long on this, the Government are not leading but lagging behind the rest of the world?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not sure I agree that the Government are “tarrying so long”. It is really important that we get the correct balance between the enormous benefits that e-scooters can bring and safety on our roads. The noble Baroness is right to highlight some very serious safety concerns that have arisen. We are gathering the data, and we appreciate data that is coming into the department from all sorts of places and that we can subsequently analyse. But, as I said, e-scooters are not currently allowed on the roads, except in trial areas. It could become impossible to get a good legislative framework together, so, for the time being, within the trials, the e-scooter riders must comply with the rules, obviously, and take part in the training offered.

[Lord Sandhurst (Con)]

My Lords, this matter is now urgent. What deadline has the Minister set her department for producing a report? We cannot go on with uninsured riders, very often moving around drugs and so on, or otherwise just knocking down pedestrians. Can we have a deadline, please?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My department is currently considering how best to capture and publish the information that we are gathering from the trials. We hope to make progress on potential new primary powers. I cannot give my noble friend a deadline, but suffice it to say, at this stage, that we have a large team working on all the different elements to enable us to bring forward a legislative framework.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, having witnessed the increased use of e-scooters in London recently, I am irrevocably drawn to the conclusion that this is a catastrophe waiting to happen. I have witnessed almost every rule of the road being breached, including reckless and careless driving, excessive speed, lights being jumped, riding on footpaths and use without lights. Can the Minister advise the House of the number of e-scooter accidents and prosecutions that have taken place in London since e-scooters have been legalised and why was the opportunity missed to offer advice and guidance in the redraft of the Highway Code?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I might swerve the Highway Code question because I think I have gone as far as I can in the answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, but I will slightly push back on what the noble Lord is saying because it is a bit concerning. A number of people have bought these scooters and obviously we want them in due course to be able to ride them safely. We will not be able to do that for all e-scooters or, indeed, for all riders but it is clear to me that people see them as an attractive alternative mode of transport. The key here is to legislate accordingly and that is what we are very much focused on. The noble Lord asked about safety stats. I can say that for the year to June 2021, the Metropolitan Police recorded 496 incidents of injury with e-scooters versus 25,666 where it was any vehicle.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

The Minister mentioned earlier that she could not give any data for police enforcement of offences. But, as my noble friend Lady Randerson said, Department for Transport statistics for the year to June 2021, collected from police forces, show that there were nearly 900 accidents, with three people killed and 253 seriously injured. If her department can get accident statistics from the police, why can it not get statistics on enforcement and offences? Is it because her department is not encouraging the police to do any enforcement?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

No. Enforcement is going on: offenders are being fined and penalties are being given out. The reality is that the Home Office does not collect the data by the specific vehicle type that is an e-scooter.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, first, well over a million private scooters are estimated to have been purchased. Will my noble friend comment on the fiction that they are being ridden only on private land? Secondly, does she think that at point of sale, when purchases are being made, there is clarity and unambiguity that e-scooters are illegal except in trial areas or on private land rather than the reality of the chaos and catastrophe they are causing up and down the country?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The department is acutely aware of the issue of the number of private e-scooters that are potentially being ridden on public land at this moment. That is why working as quickly as possible to develop a legislative framework, which will be set out in primary legislation, in order for them to be ridden legally. However, we are also reassured that the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 stipulate that traders must give sufficient information to consumers; they must not mislead. Ministers from my department have written to retailers many times and the last written reminder of their obligations was in December 2021.