Airports and Airlines: Staff

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 19th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that (1) airports, and (2) airlines, in the United Kingdom have enough staff to ensure that British holidaymakers do not have their holidays cancelled or delayed this summer.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, on 30 June, the Secretary of State announced 22 measures which the Government are currently taking to support the aviation industry to help recruit and train staff, ensure the delivery of a realistic summer schedule, minimise disruption and support passengers when delays and cancellations are unavoidable. The Government recognise that these issues are primarily for industry to solve, but this series of targeted measures will support its efforts.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I wonder if the Minister saw last night’s “Panorama”—not that I instigated its being shown before my Question or its being about this issue. A list of things is responsible: Covid, staff shortages, security, air traffic control, baggage handling, check-in staff, passport control, even Brexit. A lot of people in this country are planning to have holidays but are worried about the insecurity and uncertainty. Just on my way in, I was talking to a Member of this House who said that he and his family want to go on holiday, “if we can get away”. Surely we can do better than that.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I did not manage to see the “Panorama” programme last night, but I saw some highlights today and I recognise some of the issues that the noble Lord pointed out. As I said in my Answer, this is for the private sector to resolve. However, we have been working with the aviation industry on this for months to make sure that we are giving it all the support we can, so that it can offer consumers the sorts of timetable that can actually be delivered.

[Lord Londesborough (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the Heathrow monopoly is in the hands of owners who put the interests of shareholders far ahead of customers? Dividends of £4 billion have been drawn out in the last 10 years and the airport has been saddled with £16 billion of debt. Now it wants the regulator to approve hikes in passenger charges of well over 50%, in the midst of the most abject and abysmal service.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I reject the noble Lord’s comment that London Heathrow has a monopoly. There are eight slot-restricted airports in England and many other airports beyond that. I simply say to airlines: if you do not like Heathrow, go elsewhere.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that airline staff flying into the EU now need their travel documents to be stamped? I am sure she is, but is she aware that staff are reporting a potential crunch coming down the track in August, as their documents will be full of stamps and will therefore have to be renewed, with consequent delays? What are the Government doing to expedite that?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for raising that. I am not aware of that issue, so will take it back to the department.

[Lord Geddes (Con)]

Apropos the previous question, does my noble friend agree, as was my recent experience, that flying from and to Bournemouth international airport is perfectly wonderful? It works like clockwork.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I have heard my noble friend wax lyrical about the wonders of Bournemouth Airport, and there are many other airports like that around the country. I encourage everybody to look at those smaller airports; you often might get a better service.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness often says, as she said today, that this is for the private sector. Heathrow is ultimately a monopoly licensed by the state. There is not lots of competition out there; everything that is capable of managing significant international traffic is full. The Government are responsible for Heathrow’s performance. They are responsible for the common good; that is what Governments are for. They seem to agree with me: as of 12 July, the strategic risk group has met five times, the summer resilience group four times, and the ministerial border group four times. According to its chief executive, Heathrow is improving. This shows that the Government have intervened and had a benign effect. I congratulate them, but why did they not intervene sooner and save passengers from the misery they have suffered?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am incredibly happy to accept the congratulations of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. We have worked with the aviation sector incredibly hard to try to minimise the disruption that happened at half-term as we go into the summer period. He asked why it took so long, but we have been working on this for months. For example, we changed the law so that training could start before certain checks had been completed. We laid that statutory instrument on 29 April. Statutory instruments do not just appear in order to be laid; they are the subject of weeks of work. We have been working very closely with the sector, and the Civil Service has been working extremely closely and very hard on all these measures. As he said, they are having an impact.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, while there are pandemic-related staff shortages across the whole of Europe, is a large part of the problem in the UK not Brexit-related, as evidenced by the piece in the Times last week by the head of Menzies Aviation? He added his voice to that of the head of easyJet, which has had to turn down thousands of job applications from EU workers. The Minister says she is not responsible for the free market, but the Government are responsible for Brexit.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

A cursory glance at the aviation industry around the world will show that this problem is not specific to the UK. The US has had significant problems, as have Ireland, the Netherlands and France. The last time I looked, those three countries were members of the European Union.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

My noble friend is aware of the delays as a result of the need to look at security clearance for staff. This is particularly so with large numbers of new staff being required to fill these vacancies. That security clearance check is important, but those delays could be speeded up immensely.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I reassure my noble friend that the Government cracked this problem many months ago and there are no delays within UK security vetting. Accreditation checks are currently taking five days; counterterrorism checks are taking 10 days. These are much better than they were pre pandemic.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I am lucky enough to be having a holiday in mid-Switzerland in a couple of weeks. In under a day, I can go from Switzerland back to my home in west Cornwall by train. Does the Minister agree with me that part of the answer to this might be to look for less carbon-intensive forms of transport?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As the noble Lord may know, the Government published our Jet Zero Strategy today. We are absolutely focused on decarbonising the aviation sector, but we recognise that high-speed rail is also very attractive.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my entry in the register of interests. Would it not help passengers to fly if the Government could manage to sort out the renewal of passports? Also, would it not help if the Government were able to get the airports and airlines to work together, instead of criticising each other, given that check-in and baggage handling are handled by the airlines but the remainder of the journey through the airport is the responsibility of the airport itself?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, is completely right. When we and the CAA wrote to the industry at the beginning of June, we said that we wanted each airport to set up airport partner working groups, which would bring together the airport itself, the airlines, the ground handlers, Border Force and air traffic control. We are conscious that ground handling is an important part of the movement of passengers and their luggage through airports, so we will conduct a review of the sector to look at its quality and efficiency and at whether there are any opportunities for change.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, is it not the case that we need six free pages to accommodate stamps when travelling within the European Union, for example, if that passport needs to be stamped to enter the country? What can be done to discourage or even stop airlines from taking bookings on already overbooked flights? It creates additional, questionable revenues on seats that are known not to be available, before placing additional misery on those affected.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government have been absolutely clear with the aviation sector: we do not want short-notice cancellations or overbooked flights. We have done everything that it has asked us to do with the slots hand-back, the legislation for which went through your Lordships’ House recently, as noble Lords may have seen. In return, having done everything the aviation sector would like, we do not want passengers being treated in the way in which the noble Viscount explained.

Airports Slot Allocation (Alleviation of Usage Requirements) (No. 2) Regulations 2022

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 19th July 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 21 June be approved.

Relevant document: 6th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Considered in Grand Committee on 14 July.

Motion agreed.

Airports Slot Allocation (Alleviation of Usage Requirements) (No. 2) Regulations 2022

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Thursday 14th July 2022 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Airports Slot Allocation (Alleviation of Usage Requirements) (No. 2) Regulations 2022.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, these draft regulations will be made under the powers conferred by the Air Traffic Management and Unmanned Aircraft Act 2021, or ATMUA. Taking the opportunity of our departure from the European Union, ATMUA created a more flexible set of powers for Ministers to implement slot alleviation measures. We are now able to adapt our approach to best support the UK’s own specific circumstances.

We will all have seen the disruption that holidaymakers and other passengers have faced at some of the UK’s airports, particularly over the recent Easter and half-term breaks. There have been unacceptable queues, delays and short-notice cancellations of flights. The persistent impact of the Covid-19 pandemic has presented challenges for the aviation sector as it recovers, and there have been difficulties ramping up operations to meet the high levels of demand. Airlines, airports and the myriad other businesses that support aviation operations have struggled to recruit and train enough staff. Many other airports around the world are struggling with similar challenges. There have also been delays due to European air traffic control restrictions, strike action and airspace closures. This has resulted in short-notice cancellations of flights and considerable disruption for passengers.

The Government are doing everything in their power to support the aviation industry and ensure that passengers can fly with confidence over the summer. On 30 June, the Government set out a 22-point plan to support the aviation industry to avoid further disruption so that all travellers can get away over the summer period. One of the key elements of this package is the slot amnesty to which these regulations relate. It offers carriers more flexibility to plan and deliver reliable schedules and it introduced a two-week window, which closed on 9 July, during which airlines were able to offer back 30% of their remaining slots for the summer season. This is a one-off measure to allow airlines to plan a realistically deliverable schedule for the summer, and in particular to reduce the risk of short-notice cancellations and delays. Critical to this will be the sector itself ensuring that it develops robust schedules that it is confident it can deliver.

Ordinarily, airlines must operate slots 80% of the time to retain the right to the same slots the following year; this is known as the 80:20 rule. When the pandemic initially struck, the 80:20 rule was fully waived to avoid environmentally damaging and financially costly flights. Following the UK’s departure from the EU and the passage of ATMUA, we were able to introduce a more tailored alleviation of slot rules in response to the pandemic as the situation developed. For summer 2022, our focus is on encouraging recovery following the success of the vaccine rollout, the removal of travel restrictions and the generally positive demand outlook for aviation. After consultation with the industry and consideration of the evidence, we determined that a 70:30 ratio was an appropriate usage requirement for the summer period. This includes an extended justified non-use provision, which helps carriers when they are operating in markets that are still restricted due to the pandemic.

However, in light of the severe recent disruption at UK airports, caused by the persistent impact of Covid and a tight labour market, we consider that further alleviation measures are justified for the current season, which runs until 29 October. On 21 June, we therefore published this statutory instrument, which set out our plan to offer carriers the two-week window when they can hand back up to 30% of their remaining slots per airport for the current season. This is a critical measure to allow airlines and airports to take stock of what they can realistically deliver. This has been our message to the airlines and airports, and the entire aviation sector; they must be able to provide the certainty of a deliverable schedule. There is no point in continually announcing short-notice cancellations when they suddenly realise that they do not have the staff to fly a planned flight.

This proposal was developed following a short consultation with airports and airlines and there was strong support for it, with the great majority of both airlines and airports supporting it.

The draft instrument covers England, Scotland and Wales. Aerodromes in Northern Ireland are a devolved matter, but in any event, there are no slot co-ordinated airports in Northern Ireland, so the Northern Ireland Executive agreed that it was not necessary for the powers to extend there.

One other issue is worth highlighting. If an airline does hand back one of its slots, it can only be one that would be flown at least 14 days after it was handed back. This will mean that we do not end up with lots of short-notice cancellations within that fortnight. Orderly communications with consumers will be essential. We also expect airports to maintain their communications with consumers to advise them on what they need to do in order to ease their passage through the airport.

This is a simple statutory instrument that does just the one thing. I look forward to hearing comments from noble Lords and I beg to move.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for bringing forward the regulations before us, which I broadly support and welcome. I have a number of questions relating directly to the instrument and to the current situation. I understand that when a passenger buys an airline ticket, the simple measure of paying airport tax shows the airport and the airlines the number of people travelling on that particular day—so I am confused about why the numbers travelling seem to come as a complete surprise. I declare an interest: when I met and married my husband, he was an airline man and worked for a number of years with Delta Air Lines, Singapore Airlines and BOAC. As part of his responsibilities he was also director of Gatwick Handling.

Is one of the problems that airports and airlines are not themselves responsible for the ground handling operations, so that there is no joined-up operation from the moment that a passenger arrives at the airport and checks in their luggage? One word of advice, having married someone in the airline business, is to travel with hand luggage only so that, if you are offloaded, leaving the aircraft is a much simpler exercise. But I understand that for families and people going away for a long period that is not possible.

Do the Government have any plans to review the fact that ground handling operators are separate companies that are perhaps one step removed from the companies that passengers are paying for their services? I know that the airlines, airports and the Government are saying that they are doing all they possibly can to ensure a better experience than what we have been seeing since the May bank holidays earlier this year, but there still seem to be issues. How long does it take to train and give security clearance in particular to those working airside? I accept that we must take that extremely seriously, because that is where we are most vulnerable to a breach of security.

I welcome this amnesty. I offer a word of sympathy to the airlines and airports, which have probably been the hardest hit, alongside the hospitality and retail sectors. People were laid off. Willie Walsh said this week that, at the height of Covid, during the lockdown, only 2% of flights were operating. They had to grasp that situation and, given their ongoing overhead costs, save money as best they could, and obviously a lot of people who were in those positions have found work elsewhere.

Heathrow has asked for a moratorium on ticket sales for departures before 12 September. I pay tribute here to Simon Calder of the Independent, an expert in this field who does an enormous amount of work and is very helpful in advising passengers. He said that, after that announcement was made, when he tried to buy tickets—possibly yesterday—he found that a number of airlines were still selling tickets for before the magic date of 12 September. If that is the case, what comeback will there be? Those passengers may or may not read the newspapers and may or may not be aware of the issue. I have a further question on the impact of the amnesty. I want to establish whether, if an airline cedes a slot, it will recover the slot on the due date and there will be no economic loss to it.

I am one of the lucky passengers. I travelled during the May half-term. Although Ryanair may not be everyone’s favourite airline, I understand that it has the best figures for the fewest cancellations and the reliability and promptness of its flights. That week alone, it was estimated that between 2% and 4% of total flights were cancelled within a week of departure, compared with the normal rate of around 1%. Some 200,000 consumers were impacted by short-notice cancellations, as we are told in paragraph 7.4 of the Explanatory Note. It is not acceptable that 2.3 million passengers have been affected by delayed flights—approximately 43% of passengers arriving at or departing from UK airports. Given the importance of airports to the local economy in which they are based and to the national economy, that is obviously unacceptable.

Finally, paragraph 7.5 says that there will be 14 days’ notice when slots are ceded and that airlines are required to notify passengers of the cancellation of each flight at least 14 days before the date of the flight. Can my noble friend tell us what will happen if the airline fails to honour that commitment? It clearly is not happening. Anecdotally, a member of my family was caught up in this when they were actually in a taxi going to Heathrow airport. Having had a British Airways flight cancelled, she was then reallocated an EasyJet flight. When she was an hour from the airport, she was informed that that flight also was cancelled. So what redress will there be and what compensation will be given?

This is a deeply unfortunate situation in a major part of the economy, which is trying to do its level best to emerge as best it can from Covid times. I would like to think that one solution might be to consider ground handling operations being more hands-on with those closest to them. However, I hope my noble friend will give me the reassurance I am seeking for those passengers who have had less than 14 days’ notice, and, importantly, tell me how the airlines are required to inform passengers of a cancellation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, since it seems fashionable, I declare an interest as a British Airways pensioner after a 20-year career in BOAC—that is how old I am—and BA.

The chaos at airports in recent weeks is indicative of a Government who have lost their grip. In recent days, Heathrow has asked airlines to stop selling summer tickets, data has shown that one in every 14 flights from Gatwick was cancelled last month and the chief executive of Menzies, which provides check-in and baggage services, has laid the blame squarely at the feet of Ministers. But this issue has not crept up overnight. The Government have had months to resolve it, yet—unbelievably—I am told the Transport Secretary did not hold a single meeting with aviation bosses during Easter or the jubilee weekend, despite the chaos at airports across the country. The only reason the Government are now bringing forward this instrument and facilitating the mass cancellation of flights is that they have been slow to act. By introducing these regulations, Ministers are conceding that airlines are not able to meet the pre-Covid demand that is now returning. Ministers cannot escape their responsibility.

I always try to make my interventions in debates such as this fairly small because the impact one has is somewhat limited, but at the end of the day this is an important event and a national disgrace. One way or another, the airline industry has failed to operate. The Government have offered the view that their 22 points published on 30 June would solve the problems. I decided to examine the 22 points to see what the Government have promised to do and whether they have done it.

Points 9 to 14 are about supporting passengers. This is desirable, but it is not what we want. Passengers do not want support; they want to fly on time, and that is what we must concentrate on. Points 15 to 22 are about recruitment and retention. Once again, they are worthy but too late to make much impact this summer, so I go back to points 1 to 8.

Point 1 sets out “expectations”, but does not actually say who is supposed to do what. Point 2 is these regulations. As I read the 22 points, it is the only one that requires any legislative action.

Point 3 says:

“We have strengthened industry-government working, by establishing a new weekly Strategic Risk Group, chaired by ministers and attended by airline, airport and ground handler CEOs to ensure they are prepared for summer and can meet the schedules.”


“Weekly” presumably means that there have been at least two meetings. Can the Minister affirm whether that is true? Crucially, did the chief executive officers actually turn up? Most importantly, what did the meetings achieve? What new initiatives or co-ordination that was lacking were achieved?

Point 4 is about establishing

“a weekly Summer Resilience Group with airline, airport and ground handler operational directors to help them work through their pinch-points in the aviation system as they emerge and work collaboratively on solutions.”

Again, how often has this group met? Was it attended by the operational directors of each of the appropriate companies? What did it decide and what points were overcome?

Point 5 says:

“We have established a joint Home Office and DfT Ministerial Border Group to identify and prepare for high levels of demand at the UK border.”


I was somewhat surprised by this, because I rather assumed that was the sort of thing Ministers would do routinely. Nevertheless, it is promised. Has this border group actually had any outcome?

Point 6 says:

“We have worked with the major airlines and airports to get weekly updates and assurances to government that they can run their schedule of summer flights.”


Have the airlines met that demand? Are the Government getting weekly updates? What picture do those weekly updates present? Is the information that is submitted published in any public domain material?

Point 7 says:

“We are working with international partners, neighbouring countries and EUROCONTROL, to ensure that disruption is minimised through coordinated planning and cooperation across airspace boundaries.”


My recollection is that that is what these organisations do all the time. I find it difficult to see how that will have any impact.

Point 8 refers to a discussion of the ground handling market.

Although we will not oppose the instrument, on the grounds that we want the Government to bring forward a wider message for the efficient use of new slots, I hope the Minister can use this debate as an opportunity to bring forward a real strategy to solve this crisis.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions to today’s debate. I hope to get through as many of the questions as I possibly can. I think I can do them all, but if not, as ever, I will pop a letter in the post and try to provide a bit more information.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering raised the airport tax with me beforehand and we discussed it. The airline knows when someone books a ticket, so it knows that it has people who are about to fly, but many people book tickets many months ahead. I suppose that the airline thinks that it will be able to meet those obligations many months ahead, and then it turns out that it cannot. That is where short-notice cancellations come in. We know that there is a significant amount of data in the sector; obviously a lot of it is commercially sensitive, but we are fortunate in that it is shared with the department in certain circumstances so that we can scrutinise what is going on.

I was interested in my noble friend’s intervention about ground handling and operations. That was one of the things we pointed out specifically in our letter to the industry with the CAA, which we sent at the beginning of June. We were absolutely clear with the sector that we need a realistic schedule. This is one of the things that today’s regulations will help to provide. People need certainty.

The second point that we put in that letter was that we wanted all airports to have airport partner working groups. This was particularly to address the issue that my noble friend identified: to make sure that airports are not caught short by a lack of staff in ground- handling operations that they did not know about. We asked them to do that; we also asked them to focus, again, on passengers with reduced mobility, as there have been some dreadful stories of people being left on aircraft. But in all that, there should be no compromise on safety and security. Of course, we also said that all passengers must be informed of their rights and compensated where appropriate.

HS2: Speed Restrictions

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 13th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to avoid significant settlements, and consequent speed restrictions, on the route of the HS2 rail line in the area above the Cheshire salt mines north of Crewe.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, HS2 Ltd has undertaken ground investigations to increase the understanding of geological risks associated with settlement. This work supplements examination of information from the British Geological Survey, historic boreholes, salt extraction operators and action groups. This information has informed the current design.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for that helpful Answer. She will be aware that underneath the area where the line goes north of Crewe, there are caverns that are 200 metres high, and only 25% of the salt is remaining and the rest has been extracted. It has been settling for 100 years and probably will continue to settle for that length of time. What is HS2 going to do to ensure that the line remains straight and level, which is necessary for high-speed rail work?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Of course, HS2 is well aware of what has happened underneath the Cheshire Basin, and I noted in my previous Answer that groundworks have been undertaken. I am pleased to reassure the noble Lord that that is not the end of it. Plenty more work still needs to be done. A full programme of ground investigations across the entire route will happen between 2023 and late 2025. HS2 is confident that the line can be built on this route at an appropriate cost.

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

My Lords, what has this ridiculous project cost to date? Is its construction continuing on time and on budget? Have they yet found a way of getting in and out of Euston station?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

A further update on the HS2 project will be laid before your Lordships’ House in October.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, I draw the House’s attention to my interest as chairman of Transport for the North. Is it not the case that the Bill will have detailed consideration in Committee, which it is about to enter in the other place? This is the biggest increase in rail capacity in our country’s recent history, and the simple fact is that it will do more to increase capacity on our rail network than any other project currently being looked at by the Government.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is absolutely right. The Bill for this leg of the HS2 project had its Second Reading in the other place on 20 June. As noble Lords may recall from the phase 2a Bill, which was before your Lordships’ House recently, it now goes into a very detailed process of petitioning, which is really important as it allows local people to raise detailed concerns about the project. Obviously, it is key that we keep as many stakeholders as content as possible.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

The noble Lord, Lord Jones, will make a virtual contribution.

[Lord Jones of Cheltenham (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I know from serving on an HS2 Select Committee how vital it is for the track to meet the highest standard, particularly in challenging areas like the Cheshire salt mines, to prevent perturbation of the timetable. With today’s announcement of railway speed limits because of concerns about the effect of hot weather on current tracks, is the Minister satisfied that the high-quality steel being used for HS2 will cope with the likelihood that climate change will lead to more regular and more extreme hot spells?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Of course, these are all considerations when we consider how the railway is to be designed and subsequently constructed. It is the case that where changes are necessary, HS2 is willing to look at them. For example, the 2016 route refinement consultation shifted the route slightly to take into account the salt mines in the Cheshire Basin. When issues come before us, we are able to make appropriate changes.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, the way things are going down the other end, these salt mines might prove useful. On the substance of question, the noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin, is right: this is a project to increase capacity; it is not just about speed. All the Government’s stop-go on this project has bedevilled it. It is about time they rushed ahead with it, got back to its original concept and had it going all the way up to Scotland.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

It is the case that we have to get this project right. It has to be delivered within a reasonable cost, and it must actually be deliverable. As I have said previously, the Government are always willing to look at better solutions for Scotland. For example, the union connectivity review concluded that the Golborne link would not resolve all the capacity constraints on the west coast main line, Crewe to Preston, and would therefore not provide the benefits to Scotland. We are taking that away, and we are working on more options such that we can keep Scotland really well connected.

[Lord Inglewood (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as chair of the Cumbria Local Enterprise Partnership. The Minister mentioned the Golborne link and threw doubt on its effectiveness. However, is it not the case that if we are to improve links to the north-west and beyond to Scotland, the Golborne link provides a very substantial improvement? As such, it is not going to assist levelling up in those areas if it is not part of the overall final scheme.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Sir Peter Hendy in his union connectivity review slightly begged to differ, and suggested that there are alternatives that would make for better journeys to Scotland. Nothing is off the table; that may mean new high-speed lines or improvements to existing infrastructure. Of course, any of the options brought forward would have to compare favourably with the Golborne link as originally planned.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, the spiralling cost of the Great Western electrification programme is a perfect case study of the importance of transparency between government and industry to ensure industry’s preparedness to deliver complex infrastructure projects. Yet that link, the rail network enhancements pipeline, remains unpublished. Given that, how can we expect HS2 to be delivered on time and on budget when maintaining transparency with the rail industry is not a priority for this Government?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord has managed to combine many elements into one thing. I can reassure him that the RNEP document will be published shortly, which will reassure him about the Government’s commitment to investing in our railways.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, in November, the Government decided to terminate the eastern leg of HS2 in the Midlands rather than at Leeds, as originally promised. When they were criticised for abandoning their policy on the grounds that it would affect levelling up, the Government promised £100 million to look at alternative ways to run HS2 trains to Leeds. However, eight months on, absolutely nothing has happened in terms of even scoping this study. Is this yet another broken promise from this Government to the people of northern England?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Not at all. Work is of course well under way within the department as to how best to use the £100 million that we have set out to look at the options on the route to Leeds and to finally make some progress on a mass transit system for Leeds. However, one of the key things about the Government’s decision for our plans for high-speed rail in the future is to make sure that we get as close to city centres as possible. In the older plans, it was far too often the case that the train never got anywhere close to the city centre but now places such as Derby and Nottingham will benefit.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, the report of the Economic Affairs Committee of this House on HS2 predicted that the net result would be that it would run over budget and we would lose the necessary expenditure for east-west improvement of rail services in the north, which has come to pass. Given that the business case was based on the premise that there would be a need for more business travel and given that, as the Civil Service has shown, many people are now working from home, should the business case now be reviewed?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I reassure my noble friend that if there are changes to the budget or to the schedule, that will be put before Parliament in the six-monthly review. I slightly take issue about there being a lack of east-west investment from the Government. The £96 billion that we are investing in the integrated rail plan is a significant amount for east-west connectivity.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, is the Minister as weary as I must admit I feel from time to time of endless questions about the difficulties and problems associated with building a railway? Some 180 years ago, the Victorians managed to put bridges over estuaries, tunnels through hills and build railways over marshland, and heaven knows whatever else, and we seem to be incapable of proceeding because we are worried about salt mines in Crewe.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I cannot recall 180 years ago, but it sounds idyllic. It is absolutely right that the Government should receive the correct amount of scrutiny, this is an enormous amount of taxpayers’ money, and we want the line built as soon as possible.

Legislative Reform (Provision of Information etc. Relating to Disabilities) Order 2022

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 12th July 2022 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Legislative Reform (Provision of Information etc. Relating to Disabilities) Order 2022.

Relevant document: 3rd Report from the Regulatory Reform Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, this is a short but important order that amends Section 94 of the Road Traffic Act 1988. It will allow a wider group of healthcare professionals to provide the important medical information that the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency needs to assess whether someone can meet the appropriate health standards for driving. This will reduce a burden that currently rests only with doctors.

This change will directly support the Department of Health and Social Care’s agenda to reduce bureaucracy in general practice. The Government recognise that we should be using the skills and expertise of other healthcare professionals, where appropriate. This in turn frees up time for doctors to focus on patient care.

The measure meets the tests set out in the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006 and has been approved by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee of your Lordships’ House, and the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee in the other place, as being appropriate for a legislative reform order with the affirmative procedure.

I will give a bit of background. The DVLA is responsible for deciding whether a driving licence holder or applicant meets the appropriate health standards for driving in Great Britain. The DVLA does this by assessing information about the individual’s health against medical criteria. This order does not change the DVLA’s responsibility for making driver licensing decisions.

All drivers and licence applicants have a legal obligation to notify the DVLA of a medical condition that may affect safe driving. In some cases, the DVLA can make a decision with the information provided by the driver. However, in many cases, additional information is required. By far the largest source of medical information is gathered from questionnaires that are completed by doctors from information held on the driver’s medical records. This service is provided outside NHS contracts; it is private work for which the DVLA pays doctors a standard fee.

Currently, the Road Traffic Act requires a driver to authorise a doctor who has previously given medical advice to them to provide information to the DVLA. In practical terms, this means that the DVLA can accept medical questionnaires only from a doctor. This is an unnecessary burden in this day and age, because not only doctors but many other qualified healthcare professionals are able to provide this information. Between 2016 and 2021, an average of 267,080 questionnaires were completed each year by doctors. It is estimated that each questionnaire takes 20 minutes, so I am sure noble Lords can appreciate that a substantial amount of time is taken up by those tasks.

I turn to the content of the order before your Lordships today. The current law was made in 1988 and does not really reflect current clinical practices. Often healthcare professionals other than a doctor may be primarily responsible for managing certain medical conditions. The term “registered healthcare professional” is used to describe a range of clinicians, including doctors and nurses. Changing the wording of the legislation from “registered medical practitioner” to “registered healthcare professional” will ensure that information can be provided directly by the most appropriate person.

The DVLA will take a phased approach and will initially ask for details of the driver’s doctor. The DVLA will write to the driver’s doctor, who will be able to pass the questionnaire to another healthcare professional for completion if they wish to do so. However, this change means that longer term, when a driver knows that their care is provided mainly by another healthcare professional, the driver will be able to authorise that healthcare professional to provide the information required by the DVLA. This will allow questionnaires to be sent directly to other healthcare professionals and will remove the need to include a doctor in the administration of the questionnaire. Before the DVLA begins to send questionnaires directly to other healthcare professionals, the department will write to the BEIS Committee with a review of the new process. This will provide reassurance to the committee that there are sufficient safeguards in place.

We have heard some concerns that healthcare professionals other than doctors may not have the knowledge to complete the DVLA’s medical questionnaires, but we are content that that is not the case. The DVLA recognises that a person’s medical history can be complex, but in many cases healthcare professionals other than doctors will be more than capable of providing the information needed. It is important to recognise that in this day and age many healthcare professionals are specialist practitioners—for example, diabetes nurse practitioners. Although some may feel that the GP’s overview of health is important, it should be noted that the DVLA’s questionnaire is about a specific medical condition and not about the person’s general health. It is about one condition and whether that may affect their driving. If that person has several conditions, there will be several questionnaires that will investigate whether that person is able to continue driving. The request is for the information, and then the DVLA makes that decision.

The order also removes the necessity for the person authorised to have personally given medical advice to the driver. This will address situations where the named doctor no longer has access to the information required, because the advice and attention was from many years ago, or the doctor has retired or moved to a different practice. We will amend the law to remove that requirement.

The DVLA consulted on this proposal. There were 411 responses to the consultation from the public, medical and healthcare professionals, and road safety groups. Almost 82% of those 411 people or groups who responded agreed with the proposal.

The aim of this measure is to update an outdated piece of legislation that does not reflect the way modern healthcare works today. We also see that it relieves a burden on doctors, which is why we have been able to use the legislative reform order route. Those doctors will be able to spend more time on patient care.

As I have noted, the measure will allow the most appropriate healthcare professional to provide the information, but I reiterate that it remains up to the DVLA and its doctors and medical experts, who will review that information, to make a decision about a driving licence application. I beg to move.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

I thank the Minister for her very clear explanation. This seems a sensible streamlining of the legislation in accordance with the modernisation of clinical practice. It is welcome, because there are stories of drivers having to wait for excessively long periods for GPs to give their signature and hence their permission. That delay is undoubtedly largely because of the grave and worsening shortage of GPs in Britain. It is therefore really important that we use them in the most effective way.

I was pleased to see that the widespread response to the public consultation was overwhelmingly positive, and that the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee agreed that the appropriate processes had been followed. However, I have two short questions for the Minister. First, what checks are there to ensure there are no abuses of this system? What will be done to review it? Whenever you introduce a new system, you need to look at it in the light of experience in case there is a weakness. Some respondents were concerned not just about abuse of the system but about the level of qualification of some of those healthcare professionals. That might be totally unjustified, but it is important that the review takes place.

Secondly, the DLVA is UK-wide, but healthcare is devolved. There are different approaches to the use of certain healthcare professionals across the nations of Britain. There are some areas where GPs are relied on more than in others, and the breadth of healthcare professionals used is greater in some nations. What consultation was there with the devolved Administrations about this to ensure that the legislation matches their approach to the use of a broader spectrum of healthcare professionals in the system?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to both the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, for their brief consideration of today’s order. Again, I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, about the lack of a telephone number. My officials behind me have heard that, and I reassure him, and any noble Lord, that if ever they have any question about any legislation that I am doing, my door is always open and I will find an official who can answer their questions, big or small. However, obviously, it is not ideal not to have a telephone number in there, and we will do it in future.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, talked about speed. Part of what we are trying to do here is to increase the amount of capacity within the healthcare system to allow the reports to come back more quickly. That will allow for quicker decisions for people who are waiting and hoping to get their driving licence back. Also, when a decision is made that, unfortunately, a driving licence needs to be revoked, that will also be done more quickly—so there is a road safety benefit element as well.

The noble Baroness picked up on the fact that this will be a phased introduction. In the first phase, things will still always go through the doctor before they go to any other healthcare professional. We will then ensure that we are not seeing any abuses and that the system is working well, and we will of course speak to doctors’ representatives—the British Medical Association and the Royal College of General Practitioners, the RCGP—to see how they feel it is going. We are not in a huge rush to move through the first phase, because the doctor is probably able to deal quite quickly with the decision, “Should I pass it on or do it myself?” So we will still be saving time, but I agree that we must make sure that this is working and that there are no gaps whatever in the system. When we are content that that is the case, we will write to the BEIS Committee, and I will be happy to share that with noble Lords so that they see the results of the review and the rationale behind us moving to a further phase—if indeed that is what we decide to do at that point.

The noble Baroness also mentioned that this statutory instrument is UK-wide—it is actually GB-wide, because Northern Ireland has a different licensing system—and that healthcare is devolved. I absolutely agree, and to a certain extent, this order links to however healthcare is organised in the devolved Administrations, because they can decide for themselves how they get the information back to the DVLA. Of course, we consulted with the devolved Administrations before we finalised the policy and there was broad support from them for the aim of removing a burden on the doctors by amending this law. We informed the devolved Administrations about the full public consultation, and we received supportive responses from officials, so I do not see any concern at this time that the devolved Administrations will find this difficult in any way.

There was a de minimis impact assessment, because it has very little impact on business per se. The businesses that it impacts are GPs’ surgeries, but they can choose whether they decide to put this into place. We think that a little familiarisation will need to be undertaken within GPs’ surgeries, but then it is up to them as to how they organise their business internally. The fees remain the same, so they will judge—certainly it remains a de minimis impact.

On engagement and consultation, we had some quite significant conversations with the British Medical Association and the Royal College of General Practitioners to put their minds at rest that in no way were we trying to force doctors to do anything at all. This is an optional proposal for them. They fully understood that we would never turn round and say, “No; we don’t want information from doctors any more”. We absolutely do—we want information from the right person, and that is absolutely behind what we are seeing here. DVLA officials have met with representatives from the BMA and the RCGP, and we will continue to have discussions with them as this rolls out.

Some people have raised a lack of skills and training. As I said in my opening remarks, we are content that the sorts of people who will be doing this are very skilled—in many circumstances we trust them with our lives, or at the very least with our health. There will be a definition of “healthcare professional”; so not just anybody who happens to work in a GP’s office will be able to do this. Anybody who does it will have to be, for example, a member of the General Optical Council, the General Osteopathic Council, or the Health and Care Professions Council; so they have to have professional membership. The other thing that the DVLA is very willing to do with regard to improving their skills and knowledge of this is to help develop the training. Often the training is provided by these professional organisations; the DVLA already works with some professional organisations to develop training, and although I do not believe that it would be particularly substantial, the DVLA stands ready to support them as they develop that.

I believe that I have answered all the questions, and if not, I will very happily write. No, I have not—I have just found the professional indemnity question from the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. This is a matter for the individual professional to discuss with the organisation that they work for, such as the GP practice or the NHS trust or board—or they may wish to seek advice from their professional organisation, for example the Nursing and Midwifery Council, for guidance on matters of indemnity cover. There is probably no one size fits all, therefore there will be lots of different ways to cover the professional indemnity. However, I point out, as I did in my opening remarks, that the DVLA remains responsible for the actual decision; the person is purely providing the information and the DVLA has its own panels of doctors and medical experts who then decide whether a licence should be revoked.

Motion agreed.

M56 Motorway (Junctions 6 to 7) (Variable Speed Limits) Regulations 2022

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 11th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in today’s debate. I am also fairly grateful to still be here; I have enjoyed being the Roads Minister for the past three years, and I know a fair amount about smart motorways, so I shall try to answer as many questions as have been raised, but of course I will happily write with more detail because I suspect that I will not be able to get through everything.

This is an opportunity to remind noble Lords of the commitments we have made in our response to the Transport Select Committee report. Noble Lords will recall that the second anniversary progress report was published earlier this year, in March 2022, and set out the progress we are making on the action plan we set out in 2020 on smart motorways. That was when issues about their safety first came to the fore and were picked up by the media. The Secretary of State and I did an awful lot of work on that to ensure that smart motorways are not only as safe as they possibly can be but feel as safe as they possibly can.

They are the type of road that gets the greatest amount of scrutiny in our country. I also note that this country has very safe roads relative to pretty much any other country in the world. Interestingly enough, smart motorways are the safest roads we have in the country with regard to the killed and seriously injured figures.

We are talking about roads that are already very safe—compare them to the average rural road and you will see that they are far safer, as we must always recognise. However, the Government remain determined to continue to make people safe, and feel safe, on these roads. That is why we agreed to the Transport Committee’s report and all the recommendations therein. This included an agreement to pause the rollout of all future all-lane running motorway schemes until five years’ worth of safety and economic data are available for those schemes that opened before 2020. In our response, we also clarified that we would continue with those roads that were more than 50% complete.

Why, many years ago now, did we start the smart motorways scheme programme? We need greater capacity on our roads, as was noted by my noble friend Lady Foster, and smart motorways offer a way to get that. We get improved reliability, reduced journey times and smoother traffic flows, which is key for safety. Much of this does not appear in the safety stats for these roads, but we also shift traffic from less-safe roads, because capacity on the road increases, so some people using less-safe roads will necessarily move to these roads. They require much less land take, so they have a lower environmental impact, including on biodiversity. They cost 50% to 60% of the amount that would be spent on a traditional widening scheme—significantly less of a call on the taxpayer—and they can be done more quickly.

The M56 is no different. It was included in the June 2013 spending review, which seems like a very long time ago, and it was confirmed in the first road investment strategy in 2015. The main construction works on the scheme began in November 2020 and, as noble Lords have pointed out, it is due to open later this year. It is well over 80% complete.

The M56 scheme is four miles long and has four emergency areas. Here we get to the problem that we had in the Explanatory Memorandum, and I can only apologise that the wording in the Explanatory Memorandum is incorrect. The spacing of 2.5 km, or 1.6 miles, refers to the maximum spacing between places to stop in an emergency. That was the design standard when this scheme was designed. In reality, there is an emergency area every 1.7 km, or 1.07 miles, on average, on this stretch. It was built and designed to the design standard in place at the time, which I think all noble Lords would expect, and actually has emergency area spacing of far less. We may well go on to include further emergency areas on the M56, but this will be considered as part of the emergency area retrofit programme, which will be available later this year.

As with all smart motorway schemes opening now, this scheme will open with stopped vehicle detection. This is radar-based technology, further elements of which I shall come to later. Essentially, it looks at the road and sees where vehicles have stopped and then provides an alert to the regional operating centre, and various things then happen as a result of that.

Let us think about the smart motorway safety data. It is important to bear in mind that the latest data we have available is for 2020, so the data available is from before any of the interventions that the Government set out in the smart motorway action plan, back in 2020, were put in place or had any impact. This data is from before the Government intervened, as we have now committed.

A conventional motorway has 1.45 killed and seriously injured per 100 million vehicle miles. I encourage noble Lords to keep that in their heads. An all-lane running motorway has 1.38, so 0.07 fewer. It is safer when it comes to killed and seriously injured. That is before the widescale rollout of stopped vehicle technology, before the commitment to retrofit emergency areas, before the signage improvements we have committed to and put in place, before the recent communications campaign which told everybody to go left, before the upgrade to the HADECS cameras for Red X enforcement, and before all of the 18 measures which the Government said they would do in 2020. I am fairly convinced that those 18 measures will improve safety further.

On the basis of the 2020 data, an all-lane running motorway is already safer than a conventional motorway when it comes to killed and seriously injured. For all these people who say, “Put back the hard shoulder; let’s go back to conventional”, I do not know on what evidence that would be remotely the right thing to do. If the evidence changes, of course we should look at it again, but I cannot see at this moment—and after how much scrutiny?—that the evidence exists to even contemplate ripping out these motorways, removing capacity, putting some of those people on less-safe roads and, for the people who stay on the motorway, making them slightly less safe. I cannot see it myself.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

Can the Minister explain why all this evidence was not contained in the Explanatory Memorandum, which she personally approved?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I will happily explain that. All the evidence I just outlined was in the progress report—as I said, there was an enormous amount of scrutiny. If I had my time again, would I have put all that evidence in the Explanatory Memorandum? No, because Explanatory Memorandums cannot possibly include every bit of evidence on which the Government have made a policy decision. This M56 variable speed limit SI is very standard—I cannot even begin to tell your Lordships how many we have done. However, I wish I had included a paragraph with links to all the different reports we have already done into smart motorways. There is a balance between providing sufficient information and links and ending up with an Explanatory Memorandum that becomes unwieldy. We could provide those links though.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My recollection, though I may have got it wrong, is that the standard for Explanatory Memorandums requires them to be easily understood by a person with no previous knowledge. The arguments that she has revealed to us, which may or may not be persuasive, are not available to people with no previous knowledge.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That is exactly why, as I set out, we will update the Explanatory Memorandum. Am I going to regurgitate everything in the progress report, the response to the Transport Select Committee, the progress report from last year, and the original 2020 action plan and stocktake? No, because it would become a document of several hundred pages. We must be selective, but I think we can include links to other reports to explain it to people.

However, let us be absolutely clear that all this SI does is allow a variable mandatory speed limit to be put in place. Will that have any impact on road safety for that stretch? No, it will not. In allowing a mandatory speed limit to come in, it will probably make it safer. If the Government are then required to do an entire Explanatory Memorandum about the much broader policy, we will end up with some very lengthy Explanatory Memorandums.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

The Minister has illustrated that it can be done in a reasonably concise way. She just went through all the arguments—I cannot say that I am convinced because I cannot see them all together on a piece of paper—but the length of her speech is not that long compared with the paucity of information in the Explanatory Memorandum.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I could speak about smart motorways for ever—and I have not finished yet. I will happily set out in a letter to the House exactly where all these links are—I am sure the noble Lord knows where they all are—and summarise all the data that is out there at the moment, and make sure that a copy is placed in the Library. I am sure that it will be incredibly helpful.

I want to move on from the focus on safety data. The Transport Select Committee agreed with the Government that reinstating the hard shoulder and going back to a conventional motorway was not in the best interests of either our economy or the safety of the people using our motorways, and we were pleased that it reached that conclusion.

On the schemes that we are not pausing, the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, noted that six schemes will continue because they are more than 50% complete. We feel that the disruption and challenges to road safety that leaving traffic management in place for any significant period of time would cause—because roadworks can be quite unsafe—make it not a viable option. Of course, with roadworks in place, many drivers would also use less-safe roads than the motorway. We therefore took the decision to continue with those schemes that are more than 50% complete. However, we did say that stopped vehicle detection will be in place for all the smart motorways that we are opening, and that is indeed the case. I did not mention cost in that, but the cost of reverting a motorway back to where it was before is fairly significant.

I want to cover a couple of points on which noble Lords have asked for clarity. I think that I have set out the Explanatory Memorandum issue. Again, I apologise that the original memorandum was incorrect. We put in various safeguards to ensure that people not connected to the Explanatory Memorandum read it. Clearly, even in those circumstances, it did not pass the sniff test, so we are going to get better—we really are.

The topic of more frequent emergency areas is an interesting one. As noble Lords will know, the spacing between emergency areas has come down. In 2011, it was 1.5 miles; in 2017, it was a mile; in 2020, with the new one, it was 0.75 miles, and obviously there are maximums in there as well. Does that necessarily mean that roads built to a more recent design specification are more dangerous than those built to the previous specification? The jury is still out; it is really interesting. One thing we said in the stocktake that we would do is put 10 more emergency areas on the M25. That was done, and they have been in place for well over a year now. The data from them on how many live lane stops there were and the impact on safety is being collated at the moment, but I expect it to be inconclusive. Go figure—but one has to look at the evidence.

The noble Baroness is signalling that I should get on with it. I agree—let us get on with it.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, made a couple of points. The AA responds on smart motorways—of course it does. No recovery operator is allowed on a smart motorway while it is live but they can go to the emergency areas. Traffic officers are responsible for lanes when they are still live; ditto on a conventional motorway. The AA will come to your rescue if you end up in an emergency area or indeed on a hard shoulder.

High Speed Rail (Crewe–Manchester) Bill

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 6th July 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

1. That if—

(a) a High Speed Rail (Crewe–Manchester) Bill is first brought to this House from the House of Commons in this Session of Parliament (“the current session”), and

(b) the proceedings on the Bill in this House are not completed in the current session, further proceedings on the Bill shall be suspended from the day on which the current session ends until the next Session of Parliament (“Session 2023–24”).

2. That if, where paragraph 1 applies, a bill in the same terms as those in which the High Speed Rail (Crewe–Manchester) Bill stood when it was brought to this House in the current session is brought from the House of Commons in Session 2023–24—

(a) the proceedings on the bill in Session 2023–24 shall be pro forma in regard to every stage through which the bill has passed in the current session;

(b) the Standing Orders of the House applicable to the bill, so far as complied with or dispensed with in the current Session or in the previous Session of Parliament (“Session 2021–22”), shall be deemed to have been complied with or (as the case may be) dispensed with in Session 2023–24;

(c) any resolution relating to the Habitats Regulations that is passed by the House in the current session in relation to the Bill shall be deemed to have been passed by the House in Session 2023–24; and

(d) if there is outstanding any petition deposited against the bill in accordance with an order of the House—

(i) any such petition shall be taken to be deposited against the bill in Session 2023–24 and shall stand referred to any select committee on the bill in that Session; and

(ii) any minutes of evidence taken before a select committee on the bill in the current session shall stand referred to any select committee on the bill in Session 2023–24.

3. That if proceedings on the Bill are resumed in accordance with paragraph 2 but are not completed before the end of Session 2023–24, further proceedings on the Bill shall be suspended from the day on which that Session ends until the first Session of the next Parliament (“Session 2024–25”).

4. That if, where paragraph 3 applies, a bill in the same terms as those in which the High Speed Rail (Crewe–Manchester) Bill stood when it was brought to this House in the session 2023–24 is brought from the House of Commons in Session 2024–25—

(a) the proceedings on the bill in Session 2024–25 shall be pro forma in regard to every stage through which the bill has passed in Session 2023–24 or in the current session;

(b) the Standing Orders of the House applicable to the bill, so far as complied with or dispensed with in Session 2023–24 or in the current Session or in Session 2021–22, shall be deemed to have been complied with or (as the case may be) dispensed with in Session 2024–25;

(c) any resolution relating to the Habitats Regulations that is passed by the House in Session 2023–24 or in the current session in relation to the Bill shall be deemed to have been passed by the House in Session 2024–25; and

(d) if there is outstanding any petition deposited against the bill in accordance with an order of the House—

(i) any such petition shall be taken to be deposited against the bill in Session 2024–25 and shall stand referred to any select committee on the bill in that Session; and

(ii) any minutes of evidence taken before a select committee on the bill in Session 2023–24 or in the current session shall stand referred to any select committee on the bill in Session 2024–25.

5. That if a High Speed Rail (Crewe–Manchester) Bill is first brought to this House from the House of Commons in Session 2023–24 the Standing Orders of the House applicable to the bill, so far as complied with or dispensed with in the current session or in Session 2021–22, shall be deemed to have been complied with or (as the case may be) dispensed with in Session 2023–24.

6. That if—

(a) a High Speed Rail (Crewe–Manchester) Bill is first brought to this House from the House of Commons in Session 2023–24, and

(b) the proceedings on the Bill in this House are not completed in Session 2023–24, further proceedings on the Bill shall be suspended from the day on which Session 2023–24 ends until Session 2024–25.

7. That if, where paragraph 6 applies, a bill in the same terms as those in which the High Speed Rail (Crewe–Manchester) Bill stood when it was brought to this House in Session 2023–24 is brought from the House of Commons in Session 2024–25—

(a) the proceedings on the bill in Session 2024–25 shall be pro forma in regard to every stage through which the bill has passed in Session 2023–24;

(b) the Standing Orders of the House applicable to the bill, so far as complied with or dispensed with in Session 2023–24 or in the current session or in Session 2021–22, shall be deemed to have been complied with or (as the case may be) dispensed with in Session 2024–25;

(c) any resolution relating to the Habitats Regulations that is passed by the House in Session 2023–24 in relation to the Bill shall be deemed to have been passed by the House in Session 2024–25; and

(d) if there is outstanding any petition deposited against the bill in accordance with an order of the House—

(i) any such petition shall be taken to be deposited against the bill in Session 2024–25 and shall stand referred to any select committee on the bill in that Session; and

(ii) any minutes of evidence taken before a select committee on the bill in Session 2023–24 shall stand referred to any select committee on the bill in Session 2024–25.

8. In paragraphs 1, 3 and 6 above, references to further proceedings do not include proceedings under Standing Order 83A(8) (deposit of supplementary environmental information).

9. In paragraphs 2, 4 and 7 above, references to the Habitats Regulations are to the Conservation of Habitats and Species Regulations 2017.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

The House will know that this is a standard carry-over Motion, and it is welcome, but I question the timing. This Bill has only recently had its Second Reading in the House of Commons and will probably take another year or so in Select Committee there, so why today? I ask the Minister: is it something that is normal at this stage in a Bill process, or are the Government preparing for an early election and making sure that everything is ready in case there is one?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

I reassure the noble Lord that this a very standard process. The date is today because it is convenient for it to be today. It is a very regular procedure, as he has stated. So, if I were him, I would not read too much into it.

Motion agreed.

West Coast Main Line

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 4th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Snape]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the recent performance of the rail services on the West Coast Main Line provided by Avanti Trains.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, train operating companies’ performances are independently assessed against their contracts periodically across set criteria. An evaluation is under way and therefore it would be inappropriate for me to comment at this time. Once the evaluation is complete, results will be published.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

Does the Minister recollect our exchange on 27 April, when she said that this company had the lowest possible passenger satisfaction, scoring only one out of five? Will she accept from me that since then the performance has been even worse? The company is now at the bottom of the intercity league so far as delays and cancellations are concerned. As the company’s contract expires in October, what plans do the Government have to renew it or to find an alternative, bearing in mind that anyone running the west coast main line from October qualifies to run HS2 in the future? Will we really hand over Britain’s flagship railway to a company that is 70% controlled by the Italian Government and that has made a complete mess of the trains that it is responsible for running at present?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I do indeed recall an almost identical Question on 27 April. It is a pleasure to be answering it again. Avanti West Coast achieved one out of three, not one of five, which I agree is still terrible—it was at the bottom—but the Government hold it and all other train operators to account via the contracts. Avanti West Coast is still on an ERMA and, as the noble Lord pointed out, we are looking at potentially moving it and allied organisations on to a national rail contract within the third tranche of the national rail contracts. Will it definitely happen in October? That is not certain at all. We will look at its performance. We will think about the other options that we might consider in terms of incorporating HS2, for example, and being the shadow operator of HS2. Nothing is certain at this stage.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, there are reports that Avanti West Coast has withdrawn the 0745 Stoke-on-Trent to Manchester Piccadilly service, a vital commuter service. It has been withdrawn until September, apparently due to staff shortages. This is clearly not acceptable, as it was done without any notice. What are the obligations for train operating companies to give due notice and to undertake public consultation prior to withdrawing train services that they are contractually committed to provide? There is an issue here in relation to season ticket holders. Will they be given full refunds? What penalties will Avanti West Coast suffer if it has not obeyed the rules that are attached to its obligations?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for the warning about the 0745 Stoke-on-Trent to Manchester but, as she pointed out, the removal of that service is temporary. It will be reinstated. Noble Lords will be aware that there has been a significant uptick in the number of cases of Covid recently, leading to short-term staff unavailability. That has had a knock-on impact on training for new staff coming in to support these services. Avanti West Coast is working very hard to minimise the impact on passengers. All cancellations are regrettable. Often these circumstances are quite fast-moving, and changes are temporary, so traditional consultation does not usually happen. However, usually the train operating companies will work with the local markets and with key stakeholders to understand any impact.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, Great British Railways is coming into effect in, I am sure the Minister hopes, a couple of years. She will be directly responsible for all the trains that are on time and late, as well as for the infrastructure. Does she relish that? If not, who will she blame?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I hope that it will not be me personally, as I am not the Rail Minister, though it will be the Government. However, Great British Railways will be a body set up specifically for all those things that the noble Lord has pointed out, which will be to the benefit of passengers and freight since it will bring everything under one overarching umbrella. Will the Secretary of State and any Rail Minister at that time micromanage the network? Absolutely not. However, there will be one guiding mind. That is our ambition for Great British Railways.

[Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)]

My Lords, I fear the Minister will never be able to see the virtues of Stockport, which is a vibrant community and is business- friendly. On Saturday, eight trains to Manchester were cancelled; on Friday, two; and on Thursday, one. The 2.40 was cancelled at short notice today as well. Every time a train is cancelled, hundreds of real people are disadvantaged. Is the Minister certain that there is not a sensible alternative to handing over HS2 to Avanti, as the noble Lord, Lord Snape, spoke about? You would not put Herod in charge of an orphanage, would you?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, Avanti West Coast is not the only train operating company currently facing difficulties, which are principally due to the uptick in Covid, as I suggested. There is a downward trend in the public performance measure and the moving annual average across all train operating companies, but it is expected that this will be proactively mitigated. The DfT will actively manage this process through the schedule 7.1 sections in the franchise agreements to make sure that we hold people to account, get the performance data, and understand why things went wrong and what we can do to fix them. Our goal is to deliver for passengers and for freight.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, given the awful service on the west coast and on other railways, and given that fares in the United Kingdom are so much greater than on the continent, including in Italy—which owns a big percentage of the west coast firm—will the Minister not agree with my noble friend Lord Berkeley about moving back to Great British Railways and that the unbelievably complex privatisation of the railways in Britain has been a total disaster? There are some guilty men opposite who should admit it.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I cannot agree with the noble Lord at all. Bringing the private sector into the railways probably rescued them. The number of passengers has gone up enormously since the private sector was involved. There have been problems more recently, principally owing to the Covid pandemic, but the Government will keep the private sector involved in our railways. These national rail contracts will become passenger service contracts, and the noble Lord is most welcome to respond to the consultation on them.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, there seems to be consensus that Avanti is one of the worst train operators in the country, and that is against a very low bar. Can we turn to the other side of the contract? Since 2010, the cost of a season ticket on the west coast main line between Coventry and London Euston has risen 49%, from £7,096 to £10,546. This represents an increase of almost £300 a year. What steps are the Government taking to address increasing rail fares on the west coast main line?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are very conscious of increases in rail fares across the entire network, which is why we used the July RPI figure to increase the regulated fares this time around. We could have used the later figure and it would have been higher, but we deliberately decided to use a lower figure. How we will take subsequent rises forward is still under consideration. We recognise the impact that the cost of living challenge is having and will bear this in mind as we think about future price rises.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, does the noble Baroness appreciate the negative effect that performance on the west coast line is having on potential industrial and economic development in north Wales? Undermining rail connectivity between north Wales and other industrial centres in England means that the convenience of being located there is now very difficult to sell to incoming industrialists. Are the Government satisfied with that result from their policy?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are not satisfied with the current performance of the train operating companies, and we are doing all we can to work with them and get through this difficult phase of the current Covid uptick and improving timetables. The timetables have been improved, not only by increasing the number of trains coming in on the west coast main line, but by ensuring that future timetables are flexible and respond to demands such that, if people choose to invest in north Wales—I encourage them to do so—they would have appropriate rail services.

Airports: Delays

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Thursday 30th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, Ministers have been very clear that the current situation is unacceptable and that passengers must be properly compensated where applicable. We are working closely with industry as it resolves the current issues and today the Transport Security announced a set of 22 measures that this Government are taking to support the aviation industry.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend. Responsibility for the chaos rests primarily with the airports, which are not providing the necessary support services, and with the airlines, which cannot provide the flights that people have paid for. To improve the industry’s response, a fortnight ago my noble friend set up a strategic risk group to meet weekly. Can she tell the House what fresh solutions that group is working on to minimise disruption to holiday travel; in particular, is it looking at lifting the restrictions on night flights?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is absolutely right. The strategic risk group is now well under way. It meets weekly at the highest level. It is a CEO-level meeting with the Aviation Minister. It is working on all of the mitigations to the risks as they become higher up the priority list and therefore more urgent. The 22 measures are some of the things that have resulted from the strategic risk group and, indeed, from other conversations that are happening, particularly on the operational side of matters. On night flights, the Government are well aware that there is always a balance between the aviation travelling public and the communities that live and work near airports. The current rules extend to October 2025 and the Government have no plans to change them.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not about time that the airlines stopped selling tickets that they cannot deliver? Should they not reduce the number of sales until they are absolutely certain that they, the airports, their colleagues and the immigration centre have enough resources?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

That is exactly what the Government have said to the aviation sector. The Government and the CAA wrote to the sector, both the airports and airlines, to set out the expectations for both over the summer period. The first of those is that summer schedules must be reviewed to make sure that they are deliverable. To that end, the Government are changing the regulations with regard to slots, to introduce a slot amnesty for a part of the summer.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, is it not time that the Government took some action on behalf of the airline passengers? If we take the levelling-up strategy, for example, how can it be right that British Airways charges more than £500 for an economy return fare from Glasgow or Edinburgh if it is booked a week in advance? The travelling public are treated very badly by the airlines. In the past, my noble friend has rejected Written Questions from me suggesting that the Government should intervene, which I am sympathetic to, but this is just simply out of hand. The public are being taken for fools.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I maintain my position on intervening in the price of flights, but we are absolutely intervening in terms of the standards of care that passengers receive from the aviation sector. Again, as I mentioned, in the letter that we have recently written to the industry, one thing that we made very clear was that passengers must be informed promptly of their consumer rights. Obviously, passengers should take those up with the airline itself and then with the CAA if it is not acceptably resolved with the airline.

[Lord Woodley (Lab)]

My Lords, as we know, the recent airport delays are undoubtedly a direct result of opportunistic employers such as BA slashing jobs, pay and conditions during the pandemic. Now, unfortunately, we can all see that the chickens are indeed all coming home to roost, with many airlines too slow to rehire and refusing to restore wages that were stolen from staff under the cover of Covid. However, I am pleased to tell the House that, thanks to my union Unite, members working for CAE cabin crew have now secured an 18% pay rise—yes, 18%—and £1,200 summer bonus. Does the Minister agree that BA should follow suit and reverse its 10% pandemic cut for everyone, not just for management as is currently the case?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I am sure the noble Lord will not be surprised to learn, the Government will not get involved in the pay and conditions discussions within the aviation sector, as it is a private industry.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend share my frustration that, on every passenger ticket that is purchased, an airport passenger tax is taken? The number of passengers who are travelling should not come as a bolt from the blue, either to the airports or the airlines. What action is the CAA taking in this regard?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not entirely sure that I follow my noble friend’s question. We are taking all sorts of actions, as set out in the 22 measures that the Government announced today. That is from working with the ground handlers, where there is an issue with people getting their suitcases, to working with the airports to ensure they are able to cope with the number of flights arriving, and the airlines to ensure that their service is as good as possible and that they can meet their schedules, not cancel flights at short notice.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, do the 20-plus measures that the Minister referred to include additional staff for the Border Force, to make sure that it always has the capacity to deal with the additional security requirements that the Minister referred to in her Written Answers to me, which require the staff to take additional measures and time? Will there always be efficiency and sufficiency of staff for the Border Force?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Yes, I can absolutely reassure the noble Baroness that we have established a joint Home Office and DfT ministerial border group to identify and prepare for the high levels of demand at the UK border. Over the course of the half-term, the Border Force deployed extensive plans to ensure that it was able to meet demand, and the e-gates have been upgraded to make them more effective.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, last time we discussed this issue, I commented on the need for the department to get involved early. In fact, it seems that the department accepted my advice but did not get round to it until mid-June. Intervention in aviation is crucial because of the complex interaction. Can the Minister advise us, first, on how we will get to know about these 22 measures and perhaps write to me, listing them and putting a copy in the House? Can she also explain how a fast-moving industry that traditionally has to plan day by day can really make an impact with a weekly meeting?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Yes, I agree with the noble Lord that it is a very complex ecosystem, not just within our own borders but internationally. Issues outside our borders can have quite a significant knock-on impact. The 22 measures that I have already mentioned today will be published as a WMS today, but if there is not enough detail then I will happily write to him with the full detail on what they are. The noble Lord mentioned the Government not getting involved. When he looks at the 22 measures, he will see that there are things that have been in train for a very long time, so the Government have been working on this over a significant time. The Government do not intend to get involved in the day-to-day operations of the airports; these weekly meetings are very much about taking a medium-term view of emerging risks.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of the increasing use of fast track by airports, which demands a fee to get through the airport in a reasonable time? Does she not agree that the airports have a duty to do that for every passenger, not just for those who pay an extra fee?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I absolutely agree that every passenger should get a good service at an airport and be able to get through security within reasonable time. I know that the airports are beefing up their staffing. The Government have done an enormous amount in this area as well: we have ensured that UK security vetting now has no delays; we have also changed the regulations to ensure that training for these new security staff can start while background checks are ongoing.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, the chief executive of easyJet has said that one problem it is suffering is that:

“The pool of people is smaller, it’s just maths. We have had to turn down a huge number of EU nationals because of Brexit. Pre-pandemic we would have turned down 2-2.5% because of nationality issues. Now it’s 35-40%.”


How does the 22-step plan that the Government have produced deal with these kinds of staffing shortages?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The 22 measures include a number of interventions that we can make to sort the staffing shortages. Obviously, I have mentioned the changes to the security regulations. We are working alongside the industry—ultimately this is its issue, which it must deal with—but we have been very content to support it in terms of working with the general aviation sector to encourage communication about careers in it. The Aviation Skills Recruitment Platform has already been launched and we are working with students with the Talentview Aviation platform; indeed, we have 21 aviation ambassadors. There are all sorts of things that the Government are doing, but I remind the House that this is an issue that the industry must solve.

Rail Dispute: Michael Ford QC

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 29th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the legal opinion from Michael Ford QC on the legal powers of the Secretary of State for Transport in respect of the rail dispute.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, we have noted the advice from Michael Ford QC. Train operators are required to agree how they manage industrial relations risk, including risks from industrial action, through their contracts with the department. Before incurring costs such as pay increases or changes to terms and conditions, the Secretary of State needs to be satisfied that these are affordable and in the long-term interests of the taxpayer, and take steps to protect the public purse.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for that reply, as she clearly accepts the legal advice obtained by the Trades Union Congress on this point. However, it gives the lie to statements made by successive Ministers—including her noble friend in the answers he just gave. Where there is responsibility, the Government dodge it; where there is law, they tend to ignore it and mislead the public and Parliament. What is the concern of the Government in this dispute other than petty party-political manoeuvring? When will they take serious action? What is their strategy for resolving this in the interests of rail users and, ultimately, the country? So far, we have seen no sign of that, despite the clear legal obligations and responsibilities placed on the Transport Secretary.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

There were many questions there, to which I will try to respond. The real prize in all this, for both rail passengers and rail freight, is long-term transformation to a modern and efficient seven-day railway, where services align with demand and adapt to current patterns of travelling and rail freight, from the perspectives of both location and time. The Government absolutely want the employers to be able to reach an agreement with the RMT. We are clear that it is for the industry to conduct the day-to-day negotiations with the RMT in this dispute. Under the Labour Government of some time ago, there were strikes by both firefighters and postal workers; they took exactly the same approach and asked the employers to negotiate with the unions.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, can the Minister tell us who owns Network Rail?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government, and therefore the taxpayer.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, will now contribute remotely.

[Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]]

My Lords, over 30,000 passenger-facing rail staff have completed the disability training required by the Office of Rail and Road. As a wheelchair user, travelling by rail is noticeably safer as a result of the excellent assistance train staff provide. The Government want to allow the use of agency workers in place of striking station and train staff. If agency staff have not completed the regulator’s required safety assistance training, would that breach the public sector equality duty? Would disabled passengers be safe in such circumstances?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I can reassure the noble Baroness; there seems to be some misconception that the Government plan to recruit lots of agency staff who have no training whatever for the task they are being asked to perform. That will not be the case at all. We have very safe and increasingly accessible railways, and we will continue to do so. If we ask any staff to do anything beyond their normal role, they will of course receive the appropriate training.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for pre-empting some of my questions by agreeing with Michael Ford QC. In his opinion, he says:

“Train operators are not free to agree terms and conditions with their employees without the involvement of the SoS.”


However, being a bit apprehensive about lawyers—because all too often you just get another lawyer—I went to the essence of the powers, which is found in the national rail contracts. I looked at the one with South Western Railway. On page 38 of its 522 pages, in paragraph 5.2 of chapter 2.2—the section on industrial action—it states:

“The Operator and the Secretary of State shall use reasonable endeavours to agree how the relevant Industrial Action shall be handled, bearing in mind the Dispute Handling Policy, provided however that the Operator’s handling of such Industrial Action will be subject always to the Secretary of State’s direction”.


This is not a limp-handed agreement, but a very powerful one. Before I researched it, I did not know that the department essentially indemnifies the losses to train operating companies during industrial disputes. The way it enforces this agreement is by withdrawing such support. Does the noble Baroness agree that the Secretary of State can, and indeed must, involve himself in this dispute? Given that he has absolute discretion over the terms of the dispute, this is a dispute between the Secretary of State and the rail unions. Should he not embrace that responsibility and sort it out?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

That is an awful lot of questions about who meets who, and why. Let me explain exactly why the current negotiations are set out in the way that they are. The RMT asked that negotiations be conducted at a national level. The Rail Delivery Group has the mandate to conduct the negotiations. The talks are therefore at the Rail Industry Recovery Group level. The industry has bent over backwards to negotiate in a way that the RMT demands, and will continue to do so. The industry is offering daily talks and Ministers receive daily updates.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that, during the last Labour Government, there were disputes with the rail unions, and former Labour Secretaries of State did not negotiate directly and very much left negotiations to Railtrack, and then Network Rail?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I was not immediately aware of that, but it highlights what I have said also about the firefighters and the postal workers. It is normal for the employer to negotiate with the union. The Government should not be sitting at the table, and the RMT boss does not want us there.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, without signals, the trains cannot run, and it takes over a year to train a signaller. Does the Minister accept that it is therefore an empty threat, and one designed to raise the temperature of the situation, when the Government say they are going to legislate to allow agency workers to take over railway jobs? It will not allow the railways to run unless there are signallers available.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I have already said, there would be no question of the Government or the industry putting anybody who was not fully trained into a role at short notice. It is simply not going to happen.

On the question of signalling, noble Lords may have noticed that the Government have just announced at £1 billion investment in digital signalling for the east coast main line—I just wanted to highlight some positive news.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

The Minister said that the dispute is between the trade union and the employers, and it is nothing whatever to do with the Government. In answer to my noble friend Lord Foulkes, who asked who owns Railtrack, which is a party to the dispute, she said that it is the Government who own Railtrack. I just wonder how she sorts that one out.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I did not say what the noble Lord has just said I said. I said that the negotiations are between the employer and the union. I set out very clearly how and at what level those negotiations are taking place nationally. On the one hand, there are a set of negotiations with the Rail Delivery Group, which represents the train operating companies, and there are also negotiations going on with Network Rail, particularly around the reforms to transform—the important reforms that we need in order to have the modern and efficient railway that our country deserves.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

Thank you. My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that these rail disputes are less about terms and conditions, and more about party politics?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The truth of the matter is that the negotiations that are happening, and have been offered daily, are about many different things. Sometimes things get narrowly conflated, or get very heated, but at the heart of all this is the fact that we must get a modern and efficient railway. The Government have that at the front of their mind and give the mandate to the employers—that is absolutely clear—and I hope that this will be resolved as soon as possible.