Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2021

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 6th December 2021 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 8 November be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 30 November.

Relevant document: 21st Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee.

Motion agreed.

Electric Vehicles (Smart Charge Points) Regulations 2021

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 6th December 2021 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 28 October be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 30 November.

Relevant document: 18th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

Amendment to the Motion

Moved by

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

We had a discussion on interoperability when we debated these regulations last Tuesday in Grand Committee. There were questions asked; the Government were asked to say in their response whether the wording in the Explanatory Memorandum—to which my noble friend Lord Berkeley has referred—in paragraph 7.6 constitutes in reality a requirement for all charging points to be interoperable. I expressed the personal view that it did not, but I asked for clarification on that point.

Later in the Explanatory Memorandum, the Government say that they have

“chosen not to mandate device-level requirements”

relating to demand-side response interoperability

“at this time … because the smart charging market remains nascent, and because delivering interoperability would require broader powers than those set out in”

the Automated and Electric Vehicle Act 2018. That comment was despite the fact that the Explanatory Memorandum states:

“The ability of consumers to freely switch energy supplier is a fundamental principle in the energy market”,


which makes it rather surprising that we seem to have this delay over interoperability.

The Government, in the Explanatory Memorandum, also went to say that they

“intend instead to consider how best to deliver interoperability as part of a second phase of legislation, by looking at placing wider requirements on the entities … which could deliver DSR through charge points. Government aims to consult on this second phase of policy measures in 2022.”

I suggested that that was a somewhat vague timescale that contained no target date for actually legislating. I asked the Government whether they could be more specific in their response. The noble Baroness the Minister was good enough to say—which I appreciated—that she could not give specific answers to these questions when we were debating this last Tuesday and that she would write to answer all questions that had been asked. Irrespective of what the Minister intends to say in response now, I hope that we shall still be getting that written reply to questions that were not responded to last Tuesday.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate, including the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for the opportunity to outline the Government’s position on interoperability. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, that the letter is coming his way; it will pick up all the points raised in in that debate and any raised from today’s debate—of course, today, I am focusing on interoperability, but I note comments made by other noble Lords on wider EV infrastructure. They will be aware that the EV infrastructure strategy will be published soon, which will set out the vision and action plan for charging infrastructure rollout, but I am aware that some more specific comments have been made.

There are many different types and forms of EV charge point interoperability, relating to both public and private charge points. Some forms of interoperability are already delivered by the market. For example, most private charge points sold in Great Britain are compatible with all EVs. Work is also under way within government to consider whether further action on interoperability is needed to deliver the best outcomes for consumers.

I turn first to private charge points. These regulations will embed further interoperability by mandating electricity supplier interoperability in law for the first time. This new requirement will ensure that consumers will retain the smart functionality of their charge point. The Government also considered including requirements for charge point operator interoperability in the regulations. This would have required all charge points to be compatible with any operator, but the Government’s view is that this type of interoperability would not be appropriate for such a nascent market. It would not materially affect the consumer experience and would be an unnecessary burden on the industry. Therefore, we are not bringing forward such requirements.

Further work is under way to consider other types of interoperability in the smart energy system, including for private EV charge points. This could include requirements to allow consumers to switch the provider of specific smart charging services. That is another type of interoperability, very similar to that enjoyed, for example, by smartphone users, who can change their mobile network provider without needing to purchase a new device. Crucially, consumers would be able to seek out new deals or better services, but that would not detriment the industry’s ability to innovate and develop new products and services. These are the sorts of things that the Secretary of State for Business aims to consult on in 2022. I have no more specific date today, but, as I said, I will write to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser.

Turning to public charge points, in 2017 we mandated that rapid charge points must have CCS connectors to ensure interoperable charging. There are now only two EV models available to buy in the UK with CHAdeMO sockets, and one of those providers has indicated that future models will provide CCS—96% of rapid chargers come with both connectors.

In addition, in February 2021 we consulted on proposals to ensure that UK charging networks offer seamless consumer experience, and considered a range of different types of interoperability. This includes proposals on payment interoperability, which would mandate a minimum payment method, such as contactless, and explores whether we should intervene to ensure interoperable payment apps. The government response to that consultation on public charge points will be published shortly, with regulations being laid next year.

EV charge point interoperability is a critical policy area for this Government. As I hope to have portrayed today, there is not just one type of interoperability; there are several, some of which the Government are very willing to get involved in; others we will leave to the market. We are committed in our smart charging government response to explore those forms of interoperability, and then we will lay regulations.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

I am very grateful to the Minister for that answer and for the comments of other noble Lords: the noble Baronesses, Lady Deech and Lady Randerson, and my noble friend Lord Rosser. Of course, I am aware that there are many different types of interoperability, but I recall, about 20 years ago, when I—probably like other noble Lords—was travelling around Europe on business, you had to have a bag of about 20 different plugs to plug in your phone, charge it and make the phone work. This will not work unless there is some reaction and force from consumers to have something that is simple and easy-to-use. I wish it well, and I look forward to what the Minister will send to us in the next few months but, on that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Drivers’ Hours and Tachographs (Temporary Exceptions) (No. 4) Regulations 2021

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 6th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate today, particularly the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, who has extensive knowledge of and expertise in this area. We are very grateful for his input. I will address the drivers’ hours issue first, as fully as I can, and then go on to discuss some of the other issues that have been raised.

Let me start by saying that we are absolutely committed to ensuring the welfare of drivers and protecting all road users, and we recognise that the long-standing drivers’ hours rules that are in place are critical to achieving these objectives. We have therefore deployed these relaxations with the utmost care. Safety is the key consideration, and there are four pillars to our thinking. First, safety must be considered with regard to the extent of the relaxations made. Secondly, we must protect drivers against any cumulative fatigue. Thirdly, it must be clear to the industry about when and how it should use these relaxations; we have published clear guidance on this. The last pillar is about the use of these relaxations.

First, on the extent of the relaxations, I apologise to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson: I thought she was talking about the current SI—not the one before last—when she said 11 hours, because it is now 10 hours, as I am sure she knows. I was shaking my head when she said 11 hours because I thought we were talking about the current relaxation, not the one that expired many months ago.

The drivers’ hours relaxations are very limited; I think noble Lords will agree on that. No requirements of the rules, whether it be breaks during the day, daily and weekly rest periods, or weekly and fortnightly driving limits, have been removed. The rules have been relaxed in a limited and controlled way.

I will not go into the details of the relaxations, because noble Lords have mentioned them, so I assume that they are aware of them. But, of course, these two relaxations are underpinned by the requirements of the Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005, which also limit drivers’ working hours to an average of 48 hours a week over a 17 to 26-week reference period. These regulations also limit drivers to a maximum of 60 hours in any given week, provided that the average is still 48 hours. These working time regulations provide the protection against cumulative fatigue, which is the second pillar we considered when putting the 2021 regulations into place.

The third pillar is the published guidance. We are absolutely clear about when and how these relaxations can be used. There has to be evidence of a detriment to the wider community, there must be a significant risk of a threat to human and/or animal welfare, and there must be confirmation from the haulier’s customers that these risks actually exist. Only then can the operator use the relaxation. Operators using the relaxation, or proposing to use it, must notify the department. The operator must also notify the department later on about whether it has used the relaxation or not. Of course, this assists with transparency, and we can check compliance.

Some noble Lords may feel that that is not enough and that perhaps we need more evidence of who is actually using these relaxations. As of July last year, there were 68,982 HGV operator licence holders in Great Britain, which rounds up to 69,000. In October, 141 operators submitted notification forms. So, that is 141 out of 69,000. Only 111 of those submitted forms to follow up with the department, and just 80—out of 69,000—actually used the relaxations. We are not hearing from industry that they are not using the relaxations because they are too complicated, or whatever. It is because the safeguards are in place and we have set those out in guidance, and we are absolutely clear on the circumstances in which these relaxations can be used. Therefore, I am content that they are being used in circumstances when it is really necessary to meet those criteria that we set out in guidance. So, let us face it, we are talking about very few drivers.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, was concerned about this impression that the Government want to worsen conditions. I am not getting that from the industry. I think it recognises this very limited use of drivers’ hours extensions. We have acted really carefully, again within the guidance, to make it clear that transport managers should make sure that risk assessments have been carried out if they plan to use these relaxations at all. They must monitor and review where the relaxations are used; it must also be done in agreement with the workforce.

I believe there are sufficient safeguards. I hear from HGV drivers quite a lot, and I am not hearing anybody, as yet, say to me that they are being forced to work extended hours owing to these relaxations. Maybe I will get a flurry of emails tomorrow—something tells me I probably will not.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked about the evidence of incidents. I think the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, was aghast that the Department for Transport does not have up-to-date, real-time information about incidents on the roads. That is because the data is collected by the police and not the department. The data from one year goes through a series of checks and is usually delivered annually from the police to the department midway through the following year. We are not hearing from the police that there is a flurry of serious incidents with HGV drivers. That is a good thing. None of us wants to see incidents on our roads, and I believe that the protections are in place to ensure that they do not happen.

We must come to the very important issue of enforcements and the oft-quoted figure of 27% in the SLSC report. I think it is terrible too; I cannot agree with your Lordships more. It would be an astonishingly bad figure if it were representative of the sector as a whole—which it is not. I had the privilege of visiting the DVSA on Friday. I chatted to a group of enforcement people, who showed me some of the really bad stuff that goes on out there: drivers’ hours, wheel nuts—we have some very strange configurations of wheel nuts—and all sorts of things which are really bad. I was shocked; I congratulated them on their work and encouraged them to continue with great vigour. Then they showed me their pièce de résistance, which they have had for about 18 months.

They have access to all the ANPR cameras in the country, and they basically track all trucks, which is very cool. As they track all the trucks, they look at which ones to target on the basis of the intelligence they have coming through and what has happened before. In that 27%, there has already been a great big screening of all the trucks wafting around British roads, and they are the ones that have been targeted by the intelligence coming out of the fantastic work the DVSA does—not only the intelligence it gets from industry but the operator compliance risk score, which I am sure noble Lords are well aware of. They can do it in real time; they can see a truck driving up the road, and if it has a little red flag by it, they can send a car out, stop it and enforce it.

The other issue to note, which is regrettable, is that overseas operators make up a large proportion of non-compliance on UK roads. That is very disappointing, and we will need to look at it more closely. Between 12 August and 31 October, the DVSA undertook 111 checks against operators that had notified the department of their intent to use the relaxations; 58 offences for drivers’ hours were identified, of which only 12 related to the relaxed rules—this is the important bit, which certainly goes back to what my noble friend Lord Attlee was saying—and none was sufficiently serious to warrant a fixed penalty. To be honest, if it is five minutes, it is probably not worthy of a fixed penalty.

I reassure my noble friend that the Government are aware that we do not want to victimise HGV drivers for very small infringements, and that it must be sufficiently serious to warrant a fixed penalty. That does not mean we want to give them an easy ride, but we understand that, sometimes, for a few minutes it might be impossible to stop, for whatever reason. In general, though, that enforcement record is pretty good.

I hope I have been able to convince noble Lords of the thinking behind these relaxations. The noble Lord asked whether we would extend them. That is not currently our intention, although of course we are looking at the data very carefully as we head through and past the Christmas period.

Now I can come on to some good news. I am sure that noble Lords will have spotted today that there is some good news coming out of the sector. My 32 different actions, which the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, is so fond of mentioning, are working, which is brilliant. Logistics UK, one of the large representative bodies, has come out today with a report showing that people are returning to the industry, if they had previously left. We also know from DVLA data that it is pumping through 4,200 applications a day—we have thrown an awful lot of resources at that.

We are looking at the lack of facilities, which is something that we take very seriously. We have completed the tender for a report reviewing parking and facilities countrywide. We have a £32.5 million pot of funding that we can use to encourage the private sector to improve facilities and set up new ones. I would like to share with noble Lords that I had a really good ministerial trip on Friday: I went to open the Ashford international truck stop and, my word, it is amazing. It sets a really high standard. I encourage all private companies and operators that have truck stops to go and look at Ashford because those in charge have done a lot of thinking about what drivers need. It is a class site, with 600 HGV parking spaces available. Now we have to think about how we either improve lots of existing sites or find places for new ones, because noble Lords will recognise that there are issues with planning.

I will finish with a couple of other issues. On medical examinations, we have set out plans to widen the pool of registered healthcare professionals who do DVLA medical questionnaires, which should help. We are also working with GPs to make sure that routine medicals are restarted.

We have launched a review to look at ways of streamlining driver CPC. My noble friend said that it would be easy to relax it—I wish it were. We cannot even suspend it, as it would take primary legislation to do so. However, we believe that ongoing professional training is a valid part of an HGV driver’s life so we are looking at reviewing how to make that better. Randomly saying that you must have 35 hours does not seem the best way of making sure that HGV drivers are up to speed with the regulations.

As I said on Friday, if we do not look after them then they will not look after us, so we need to look after them and the Government are doing that. We are working very closely with the industry. Hopefully, next year we will have a hugely impactful year of logistics. We will make sure that people understand that HGV driving is a good career that we want people to come into. The Government are doing everything that we can to improve the situation, but we recognise that, at the end of the day, this is a private sector and we must support this private sector in doing what it does best.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I am interested in the Minister’s visit to the DVSA and her comment that a large percentage of the drivers not obeying the rules work for foreign operators. Is that not rather at variance with the Government’s decision to relax the rules on cabotage for foreign operators? Is that not a risky decision?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

We must recognise that the vast majority of all haulage operators obey the rules. It is because we have such a good, targeted approach that we are able to target those that do not. A lot of work goes into connecting the dots between different vehicles belonging to the same operators.

Let us turn to cabotage, although I will probably write further on this subject. The cabotage extension is very limited, going from being able to do two journeys under cabotage to a period of two weeks. From what we understand, this is about a tiny percentage of haulage journeys. I will see if I can get any further figures for the noble Baroness. Again, I am not getting huge numbers of hauliers writing to me saying “This is terrible, they’re stealing our business.” Most hauliers have more business than they can possibly cope with. I will write with that information but I do not think you can necessarily relate the two. It is the case that the vast majority of haulage operators and drivers follow the rules.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

The noble Baroness made reference to the driver hours relaxation and gave some figures, for which I thank her very much. Is not the real explanation of why those figures are low that, in the consultation, the proposition was opposed by the Road Haulage Association as well as Unite the Union? Clearly they were not going to queue up to use it, because they did not agree with it anyway.

I notice as well that the noble Baroness said that the cabotage extension is limited, so that is two of the 28 items down here where the Minister herself has admitted that they have had a fairly limited impact. I suggest that it is not the Government’s 28 items—or indeed 32, if that is what it is now. The biggest one so far as far as road haulage drivers are concerned has been the increase in pay that has happened. I do not think that this featured too highly in the 28 courses of action to which the Government referred.

Finally, what is the significant proportion of drivers stopped in roadside checks who are breaching the drivers’ hours legislation? I gather that it is not the 27% that was quoted in one survey, so what is the figure? Why was it that the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee repeatedly asked the Department for Transport to provide evidence that would allay its concerns but the responses indicated that the department does not have information either way. Why did not the department provide any information then?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I could possibly give an entirely new speech on this but I would probably not be popular if I did—my Whip agrees with me.

The RHA wanted something entirely different—we know that. It always wanted us to open the floodgates and allow EU drivers to come in. Indeed, I am looking at the noble Lord and trying to remember whether any good ideas have come from the Benches opposite as to how we solve the HGV crisis. I believe Keir Starmer wanted to open the doors to 100,000 EU drivers—that was the Labour way of solving this crisis. We have taken a very different stance. As the noble Lord will know, no EU drivers are willing to come flooding in anyway, as I have said many times. We have set out a range of short, medium and long-term actions. Some are very substantial; for example, we removed the HGV levy. That saves hauliers lots of money, and from that money they can pay their staff more. We have also frozen VED. As I have said right from the outset, there is not one thing that will fix this; it is a whole succession of things. Some are short, medium and long term, some are big and others are little; that is why we have 32 actions. I am proud of those 32 actions and I believe that they are fixing the crisis.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. I am especially grateful to the Minister for explaining how limited the relaxation is to the drivers’ hours. It is very helpful for her to clear up the issue of the 27% infringement rate. I have always been very well aware that when the DVSA stops a commercial vehicle it is normally acting on intelligence, so it is not surprising that it finds a high rate of infringement both on drivers’ hours and vehicle condition. It does not go and stop a Tesco’s lorry, for instance.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, talked about the complexity of the drivers’ hours regulations. They are indeed very complex if you want to go right up to the limit. If you do not need to go right up to the limit, they are quite simple.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, talked about the lack of a strategic statement. The problem the Minister has with facilities is very wide-ranging, and the planning system is a very major obstacle to providing better facilities. I do not think £32 million will go very far; it will not be easy to change the planning system, and this is not even a matter for my noble friend’s department. However, I am extremely grateful for her responses and I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.

Electric Vehicles (Smart Charge Points) Regulations 2021

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 30th November 2021 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Electric Vehicles (Smart Charge Points) Regulations 2021.

Relevant document: 18th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, these draft regulations will be made under the powers provided by the Automated and Electric Vehicles Act 2018. They will mandate that most new private electric vehicle charge points sold in Great Britain be capable of smart charging and meet minimum device-level requirements. They will play an important role in helping us meet our transport decarbonisation targets.

As announced by the Prime Minister as part of the world-leading 10-point plan for a green industrial revolution, the Government are going further and faster to decarbonise transport by phasing out the sale of new petrol and diesel cars and vans by 2030, and, from 2035, all new cars and vans must be 100% zero emission at the tailpipe. Cars and vans represent one-fifth of UK domestic carbon dioxide emissions and accounted for 71% of domestic UK transport emissions in 2019. Ending the sale of new conventional petrol and diesel cars and vans is a key part of the answer to our long- term transport air quality and greenhouse gas emissions.

Electric vehicles present not only a huge opportunity to decarbonise transport but an important opportunity for consumers to contribute to the efficient management of electricity and to share the benefits of doing so. Smart charging will enable this. It enables consumers to shift their electric vehicle charging to times when electricity is cheaper and demand is low. It is a win-win, both reducing the need for costly network reinforcement and saving consumers money on their energy bills.

These regulations are essential to drive the uptake of this important technology and to enable the transition to electric vehicles while minimising cost to consumers. This instrument could deliver up to £1.1 billion of savings to the power system by 2050. Through it, the Government will deliver four key objectives for smart charging policy by driving consumer uptake, delivering consumer protections, helping ensure the stability of the electricity grid and supporting innovation.

The key provisions in the instrument are as follows. First, these regulations mandate that most domestic and workplace charge points sold in Great Britain will have the capability to smart charge, so that consumers can benefit from the savings this offers. Many home charge points already have smart functionality, so this instrument will work with the grain of the market and consumer behaviour to drive significant uptake of this technology and reduce the cost of the electric vehicle transition.

It is important to note that the instrument maintains consumer choice. It mandates that charge points must have the functionality to support smart charging, but consumers will still be in control of when they charge. They will continue to be able to choose the energy tariff that suits their needs and decide whether to subscribe to smart charging services. Some consumers may not engage with smart charging so, to encourage them to charge at times of low electricity demand, the instrument ensures that charge points are preset not to charge at peak times. However, and importantly, the instrument mandates that consumers must be informed and asked to confirm this setting during first use, and they must be able to edit it at any point in the future.

Secondly, these regulations establish new cybersecurity and grid protection requirements. The instrument embeds new and more robust cyber hygiene standards into smart charge points to help mitigate the risk that charge points are hacked and controlled to the detriment of individual consumers and the electricity system. It also requires a randomised delay function to prevent the synchronised switching on or off of large numbers of charge points—for example, in response to a drop in electricity prices. This will help ensure that smart charge points support the integration of electric vehicles into the electricity system and do not destabilise it.

Thirdly, the regulations set new requirements on how charge points monitor and record electricity consumption. This will help consumers to engage with their energy bills and usage, and ensure that a charge point is capable of supporting smart services. Many requirements, such as cybersecurity, electricity monitoring and the randomised delay function, align with standards developed with industry, mainly the British Standard for energy smart appliances, PAS 1878.

Finally, we are mandating that, in the event that a consumer switches their electricity supplier, their charge point must retain its smart functionality. This will ensure that consumers are not locked into a specific electricity supplier by their choice of charge point.

Noble Lords will note that the Government take an outcome-focused approach throughout the instrument and do not prescribe specific technical implementations. This approach will support ongoing innovation within the charge point market and help to maintain our position as world leaders in smart technology.

These regulations are essential to ensuring the successful uptake of smart charging technology to support the electricity grid and consumers in the transition to electric vehicles. I commend the regulations to the Committee.

[Earl Cathcart (Con)]

My Lords, I support these regulations. As my noble friend the Minister explained, they apply to charge points intended for use by vans and cars in a domestic or workplace setting. When will we get charge points at our workplace setting, the Palace of Westminster? It would be good for us to lead by example. I looked at electric cars a few months ago but, when fully charged, it might have got me here—just—but not home again, so I had to buy a hybrid car, which was a pity.

--- Later in debate ---

When will that interim process evaluation be undertaken? Will it be published? Apparently, there is also a statutory review clause, with the first report being published by the Secretary of State before five years are up from the date these regulations come into force, which, as I understand it, is at the end of June next year. The Automated and Electric Vehicles Act 2018 also requires the Secretary of State to prepare a report every 12 months. That is quite a few reports; at least, it appears to be quite a few. Who will actually produce these various reports? Will their work be co-ordinated or conducted in separate silos?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for her consideration and the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for his thoughts on the statutory instrument before the Committee. First, I apologise wholeheartedly for what was clearly an error in the IA, where it says, “Error! Bookmark not defined”. This should not happen; it will not happen again. It is deeply disappointing and I regret it enormously.

It is always good to be on the receiving end of some excellent questions from both noble Lords. I know now that I cannot possibly answer some of them, but I will write to answer all questions asked today.

We know that there could be a potentially significant impact on the grid. Current estimates are that, by 2030, EVs could account for approximately 10% of total electricity consumption, up from less than 1% today—so, well over 10 times where we are at the moment. This could increase the total energy demand by 2030 by 30 terawatt hours and by between 65 and 100 terawatt hours in 2050. So we know that there is a significant electricity requirement coming down the track. What this SI does, by introducing the smart charging concept and legislating for it, is enable the demand to be managed in a much better way.

Obviously, we need to ensure that electricity networks have sufficient capacity. This is the responsibility of the electricity network operators; they are incentivised to do so through the regulatory framework set out by Ofgem. However, let us be frank: if they need more capacity, it will end up being the citizen who somehow pays for it. Therefore, the extent to which we can manage demand is hugely beneficial. The noble Lord noted some of the savings that could be coming down the track.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, also asked about the impact of energy generation from non-renewable sources. I do not have those figures to hand but I will write to him. The Government have been quite successful in shifting our energy generation to renewable sources, which is a bonus and, indeed, a prerequisite of what we are trying to do to decarbonise our transport system.

We should be able to get some very significant benefits from smart charging by shifting demand. We estimate that we would need 60 gigawatts of flexible capacity to enable the net-zero electricity system. This could include more than 30 gigawatts of either short-term storage or appliances such as electric vehicles using energy in a smart way. So smart-charging EVs will likely play a very integral role in the future.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, mentioned consultation. I do not have the details about why people were unhappy, but it is the case that we have been working very closely with the industry and consumer groups as we have brought forward these regulations, so it does not surprise me at all that they have changed. We will continue to work with them as we continue to introduce regulations, particularly around interoperability.

Looking at the costs and benefits of these regulations, the noble Lord has pointed out that the range is wide, but I believe that we can safely say that this is a very beneficial piece of legislation. The impact on industry is a £130-million cost up to 2050; that is primarily related to product development costs to meet the requirements.

We are very much working with the grain with industry at the moment, so we expect that the cost of complying will vary depending on whether a manufacturer already offers smart devices or needs to upgrade non-smart models. However, given the rate of change, significant developments are expected to come down the track, allowing charge points to be produced on a far more economic basis.

Turning to the actual amenity and the people who will install these charge points in either their homes or their workplaces, I take the noble Baroness’s point about district nurses and different people with different shift patterns; they would need to understand this fully. Let me be absolutely clear: we are committed to educating consumers to make sure that they remain in control. As with anything, when you get a sophisticated piece of technology, you must read the instructions—unless you are a man—so she and I would clearly read the instructions and would know what to do. Of course we want to make it as easy as possible; there should be no barriers between setting up charge points exactly as they need to be set up, depending on your work or lifestyle. This is really important, and it is top of mind for us.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, asked about cybersecurity. Right now, charge points are subject to general product safety requirements, but government does not regulate the cybersecurity requirements. We are aware that some charge points have cybersecurity vulnerabilities, so these regulations will improve the standard of the security of private charge points to give confidence to consumers that their charge points follow current cybersecurity best practice. These requirements align with the best-practice requirements set out in a globally applicable cybersecurity standard and DCMS’s code of practice for “internet of things” devices. However, we also know that cybersecurity risks will continue to evolve; we will of course monitor them and think about how we can intervene in the longer term.

I turn briefly to the intervention from my noble friend Lord Cathcart. My department is in dialogue with the Palace of Westminster about access to charge points. I have written letters to the powers that be in the Palace about them. I am reassured that, apparently, they are coming, but of course this is not a government decision. I agree with my noble friend that we should set an example, and I will continue to press for charge points in the Palace of Westminster.

Moving on, assurance is essential for enforcement and consumer confidence. These regulations require that a statement of compliance and a technical file be available to explain how charge points meet these requirements. They must be provided to the enforcement authority and the consumer upon request. These requirements are intended to deliver appropriate assurance without imposing unnecessary or disproportionate burdens on businesses. The Government have appointed the Office for Product Safety & Standards as the enforcement authority, and will ensure that it has the funding to promote and ensure compliance with the regulations. The OPSS is an established regulator with significant expertise as a national product regulator. The legislation includes a range of proportionate enforcement tools to support effective compliance, including civil penalties.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, made an important point about public charging points and accessibility. We are absolutely committed to ensuring that we have an accessible electric vehicle charging network and that inclusively designed charge points are available for all consumers. Obviously, work continues: we are working closely with the national disability charity Motability to commission the British Standards Institution to develop accessibility standards for public EV charge points.

I turn briefly to what is included and excluded. The regulations exclude public charge points. Domestic and workplace charge points account for the highest proportion of EV charging by far, and smart charging works best in those settings due to their long plug-in times. You therefore get flexibility in making use of the smartness of the charging point. However, we are separately exploring the potential for smart charging at public charge points—particularly, for example, where vehicles might be parked on the street overnight.

We have excluded rapid charge points because this is about shifting demand and making sure that electricity can be drawn down at cheaper times and when there is less demand on the grid. Of course, as the noble Baroness pointed out regarding her friend in a van, if you use a rapid charge point then you need to be charged right there, right now. You cannot be messing around. Having smartness attached to rapid charge points has potentially limited benefits because what you really need to do at them is turn up, plug in and, after 15 minutes, go. Any smart additions probably would not add anything to that.

There are many next steps because there is lots to do in this area and the Government are very ambitious. Phase 1 refers to the regulations that we have discussed today to establish baseline device-level requirements for smart charge points; phase 2 will look beyond charge points themselves and be concerned primarily with placing security and interoperability requirements on the systems and entities that control charge points, as well as on other smart systems and devices. At that point, we will look much more broadly: beyond the devices in people’s homes and into the system itself. We will consult on some more proposals in due course in 2022.

Motion agreed.

Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2021

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 30th November 2021 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2021.

Relevant document: 21st Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, this instrument makes several important changes to the Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations Order 2007, which established a certificate trading scheme known as the renewable transport fuel obligation, or RTFO. This draft instrument would improve the RTFO scheme, ensuring that renewable fuels continue to play a key role in reducing emissions from road transport and, in the longer term, from transport modes with more limited decarbonisation options, such as aviation and maritime.

While the instrument relies on powers contained within the Energy Act 2004, parts of the 2007 order were previously amended by instruments made under Section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972. Accordingly, Schedule 8 to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 applies. The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s report of 25 November acknowledges that the committee has no specific comments on the instrument and notes that during the enhanced scrutiny process, and in response to industry comments, the instrument has been somewhat amended and improved. The instrument was also considered by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments on 17 November, and that committee identified no matters requiring report.

The RTFO scheme, changed by this instrument, promotes a market for renewable fuels used in transport. The scheme places obligations on larger suppliers of fossil fuel to ensure the supply of renewable fuels which reduce carbon emissions. These obligations are calculated as a percentage of the volume of fossil fuel supplied over a calendar year. They are met by acquiring certificates which are issued for the supply of sustainable renewable fuels. The trade of these certificates provides a revenue stream for suppliers of renewable fuels.

This instrument delivers several commitments made in our transport decarbonisation plan to upgrade the RTFO. It increases the main RTFO obligation level from 9.6% to 14.6% by 2032, continuing at that level in subsequent years, with 1.5% of this RTFO target increase being made in 2022, to maximise the carbon savings from the introduction of greener E10 petrol this September. The instrument also improves RTFO support for suppliers of renewable hydrogen by extending certificate eligibility to renewable hydrogen used in maritime vessels, and in fuel cell-powered rail and non-road vehicles. As targets for the supply of renewable vehicles increase and new end uses are included in the RTFO, the instrument strengthens the sustainability and greenhouse gas emissions savings criteria that renewable fuels must meet.

In addition, the instrument replaces references to various EU enactments with equivalent criteria. It replaces these references through changes made to the 2007 order itself, and by using technical guidance issued by the administrator. Technical guidance on sustainability reporting covers the values, formulas, and methodologies used to calculate carbon savings. To reflect changing international standards and evolving fuel production processes, and to ensure no obstacles to trade, the RTFO administrator proactively updates its technical guidance, a draft of which was published alongside this instrument.

Renewable fuels supplied under the RTFO scheme currently deliver about a third of all domestic transport carbon savings under current carbon budgets. They will also make an important contribution to future UK carbon budgets. I commend this instrument to the Committee.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

I thank the Minister for her introduction. This is a complex but very important order. The sixth carbon budget requires reductions in emissions of 78% by 2035, and low-carbon fuels supported via the RTFO have been an important part of that process for the last decade. This SI extends the renewable transport fuel incentive to suppliers of renewable hydrogen used in fuel cell rail and non-road transport, and to renewable non-biological fuels for the maritime industries. It also increases the RTFO obligation by 5% until 2032, and updates emissions criteria.

This is an affirmative instrument which comes into force on 1 January 2022 which, as the Explanatory Memorandum points out, is less than 21 days. Clearly, that is less than the traditional amount of time. Some error has occurred somewhere down the line because while this is important, it is not a piece of emergency legislation. Therefore, it is regrettable that there is not the usual time limit.

Something to welcome strongly is that Articles 13 and 14 of this order strengthen the sustainability criteria. That thread runs through all of this. Are biofuels really sustainable? Are they really being produced in a fully sustainable manner? When you get down to the fundamentals, any land that you are using to produce biofuels is land that you could use to grow crops for food and so on. I therefore strongly welcome, for example, the criteria that would prevent biodiverse woodland being degraded for biofuel production.

As I said, it is a very complex area, because renewable fuels and feedstock originate from across the world. It is possible—indeed probable—that producers would be eligible for multiple incentives, which the UK provides, but are incentives where the fuel and crops originate from. What steps are being taken and what steps will the Government take to ensure that this is not exploited such that there are multiple payouts on one batch of fuel, if I can put it that way?

These detailed plans and arrangements were clearly devised prior to COP 26. How have they been affected, if at all, by the results of those discussions? Where do we go next, Minister?

Paragraph 7.12 of the Explanatory Memorandum refers to the increase in 2020 in the buy-out price from 30p to 50p. Can the Minister tell us whether this has been effective in stimulating the market?

The part of this we will all have noticed was the increase from E5 to E10 in September for bioethanol in petrol. I recall that, when we discussed the regulations on that, there were some areas where there were exceptions, such as the coast of Scotland, I believe. Were those exceptions envisaged to be temporary, perhaps to let the more distant parts of the UK improve their access to the most modern fuels, or is it envisaged that they will be permanent for those areas?

It is important to note that, despite government targets to phase out the sale of new internal combustion engine vehicles, raise the main RTFO target and so on, there remains a fatal flaw in government policy. Emissions from transport are not declining. Cars and vehicles are becoming more efficient, but the emissions are not declining because of the increase in road traffic. That has been made worse because many people have rejected public transport as a result of their fear of Covid. The Government have a major task to get us back on to public transport. I notice that the bus strategy, which has excellent aims, has a huge funding gap; four local authorities have made bids which are equal to the total amount of money available, and there are over 70 local authorities which could bid for it. Clearly there is a funding gap there.

I do not want to dwell on private grief for the Government, but last week was not an easy week for them in the north of England because of the rail announcement. Even with electric vehicles, the Government have a mountain to climb to gain public confidence. I am pleased to see these improvements, but there is still a vast amount of work for the Government to do, and unfortunately some of it involves additional funding.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

I just want to raise a question with my noble friend, and it has been outlined. While I generally support the push for bio and alternative fuels, I cannot do so at any price given the whole food for fuel argument, particularly when food is needed to sustain populations. While it is quite easy for us in the United Kingdom, and probably those in some other countries, to look at how the programme is working and what we are doing, the same cannot be said for some third countries. For example, in Brazil and some other countries in the great continents of the world, we see great destruction of wildlife, fauna and flora. Can my noble friend explain the measures that our Government are taking to police this?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their interventions and contributions to this debate.

I start by addressing the concern of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, about the 21-day rule. There is an explanation in the Explanatory Memorandum —which I probably will not read out now, because it is written there—for why we felt it was right to not abide by this rule, but I will say that I am less than happy about it. I think I will make a new year’s resolution to have an SI debate in your Lordships’ House or Grand Committee without somebody pointing to a mistake in a document or the fact that we have not been able to comply with a rule when, quite frankly, we really should have been able to do so.

Noble Lords have gone a little beyond the SI into the Government’s broader policy on transport decarbonisation. I will write with a fuller answer on that, because there is a lot happening at the moment and it goes far beyond what is in front of your Lordships today.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, as ever, raised a very important point about the consultation and the responses from various people. As is always the case with a consultation, certain people will respond. We had 120 responses and the majority of those agreed with our proposals, including trade associations and fuel suppliers, which was great. But the Government have another responsibility: to make sure that it is fair on the general public—the people who have to buy the fuels. There was always going to be a balance between the cost that will potentially be added to the fuel at the pump versus how ambitious we would like to be. If the public had the deepest of pockets, we could be far more ambitious, but we always have to think about the cost.

I note the noble Lord’s suggestions, such as banning the sale of a second-hand internal combustion engine vehicle, but I think that would be really harsh on somebody for whom it may be the biggest asset they own in the world. I would find it very difficult to do that without an enormous amount of fair warning. We do accept that there is never a good time to add cost to fuel consumers’ bills, and this policy is expected to marginally increase fuel costs—but we believe that those costs are, on balance, manageable. We are looking at something like 0.5p per litre in 2022, rising to 1.6p per litre in 2032, which is a little over 1% of current petrol and diesel prices. But it is not nothing—it is not insignificant—so we do always have to think about the balance with these things.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, asked about the exceptions in the rollout of E10. Those were the days—those heady days when we were upstairs in the committee room talking about E10 implementation. I cannot remember whether those exceptions are permanent or temporary; I will certainly write on that, as I will on whether the increase of the buyout price to 50p has been successful. We will be able to look at that.

If I may, I will talk very briefly about sustainability, because it is absolutely critical that we do not ride a coach and horses through very good-quality agricultural land to produce these fuels. All biofuels supported under the RTFO need to comply with strict sustainability criteria. My noble friend has pointed out some of the challenges with certain countries in the world. There are protections for biodiversity and against land use changes such as deforestation. These regulations have improved the sustainability criteria, and I am very happy to write to the noble Baroness, and, indeed, to other noble Lords who contributed, to set out exactly where the changes have been made and the benefits that we expect to get from them.

I appreciate that there are a few unanswered questions, but I will be writing. I think we have reached the right balance by increasing by 5%; it will make a difference to our carbon emissions. We accept that there is more to be done in transport, but we are on that case and are doing as much as we can as quickly as we can.

Motion agreed.

Isles of Scilly: Ships

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether their award of £48 million from the Levelling Up Fund to the Council of the Isles of Scilly for the purchase of new ships requires the Council to demonstrate value for money by arranging competitive tenders for the (1) procurement, (2) construction, and (3) operation, of the ships.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the Council of the Isles of Scilly submitted a full application, which included an economic and a commercial case. The Department for Transport reviewed these documents through a detailed assessment process, including assessing the value-for-money of the application. The process is set out in the fund’s technical and explanatory notes. Officials from the DfT will be writing to the Council of the Isles of Scilly to set out further business-case requirements.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that response. However, she did not say whether the council would be required to go out to tender for the supply of the ships or operating the service. At the moment, the application is to give the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company—the monopoly supplier of services—a free gift of something like £48 million to operate a service, with no conditions. Does she think that is the normal way to conduct public sector financial business?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am pleased to be able to reassure the noble Lord that, of course, the current status of the bid is that it is in its very early stages. As I said, we will be writing to the sponsor setting out further requirements for the business case. By the time this comes for ministerial sign-off, we will have had not only an OBC but also an FBC, and it will be done with the five different businesses cases. That would be normal, according to the Treasury rules. It will be a very rigorous process, during which we will, of course, assess the commercial elements of the bid. The noble Lord should just follow the process carefully; the bid would appreciate his support and guidance in getting it through the government systems.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest in that I like ships. Notwithstanding what the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, says, I am delighted that a ship will be provided by some means for the Scilly Isles; it is very much needed. We are still awaiting the refreshed national shipbuilding strategy—we have been waiting rather a long time—but this will presumably be encompassed within that. Will the ship be built in the UK with UK steel? Appledore shipyard, for example, which is very close by, is ready to do the build; we have a lot of shipyards waiting for this work. Will the Government ensure that it meets the very highest standards as a green ship? In that context, we should make it the very best ferry in the world because there are opportunities for sales. Can we please not make a complete pot mess of this, as the Scottish Government have of the ferries that they have been trying to get?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I reassure the noble Lord that I like boats too.

[Noble Lords]

Ships!

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I said that on purpose. It is the case that there will be a proper and correct procurement process that goes alongside this money. It is a significant amount of money and, as it is so significant, the Government will be keeping a close eye on the procurement strategy.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister has still not confirmed that high environmental standards will be required. I would welcome her doing that. “Scillonian III” is 44 years old, so these replacements will be built for the long term; they must be of the highest environmental standards. Will those standards also be imposed on onshore infrastructure servicing not just these ships but the many small boats that use the Isles of Scilly?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Yes, the Government are keen to uphold the highest environmental standards. This is one of the attractive things about this bid. We will be funding the building of three vessels and harbour improvements. Part of the harbour improvements will involve improving the electricity supply, which will allow hybrid and electric vessels to use the harbour very effectively. Funding this bid aligns with the Government’s decarbonisation strategy and the Clean Maritime Plan.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

The Minister has referred to the bid. Will the new vessels under that bid mean that fewer crossings will be cancelled due to bad weather? Will they result in more crossings made, and throughout the whole year?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I certainly hope that both those things will be true. As the noble Lord will know, there is at the moment a very ageing vessel that chugs back and forth. It is very dirty, it keeps breaking down, the cost of maintenance is very high and it has to be taken out of service for maintenance to take place. It is also the case that, to fund that maintenance, passenger fares go up and demand therefore goes down. There is so much about this bid that is very attractive. We would hope that, out of all of this, we will see better services to the Isles of Scilly.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

Will there be a requirement in the contract to eliminate the use of fossil fuels?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I cannot comment on the detail of the contract; indeed, I am not entirely sure to which contract the noble Baroness is referring. We will be looking in the business case at the environmental credentials of the bid. These are very decarbonised vessels, and this is a huge step forward for maritime in the area. As I have said, however, the development of the OBC and the FBC will take a couple of years, so there will be many opportunities to discuss this further in the future.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Will the Minister ensure that the tendering is open, and not the kind of privileged access tendering that we have seen for protective equipment and clothing during the pandemic?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I have set out many times, the tendering will be part of the business case that will be put forward by the sponsor of this project. We will, of course, be looking in it for open tendering, because we understand, as well as I am sure noble Lords do, that competition is the best way to improve quality and reduce cost.

Integrated Rail Plan: North and Midlands

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 22nd November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I recall a particularly funny episode of “Yes Minister” in which the Prime Minister asked Jim Hacker to produce an integrated transport plan. It was called “The Bed of Nails”, and I was reminded of that episode over the weekend as I watched the Secretary of State valiantly trying and failing to sell this plan as a success for the north of England. It takes a lot of ingenuity to produce a plan that almost doubles the time it will take to get, for example, from Birmingham to York, and still call it an improvement on previous plans.

Despite the Secretary of State’s sleight of hand, the plan has not been well received. The Government have managed to unite the elected mayors of the north, the chambers of commerce in Yorkshire, Greater Manchester, Birmingham, east Lancashire, Doncaster, the east Midlands and even London, the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport, Conservative MPs for northern constituencies and the Conservative chair of the Transport Committee in opposing and criticising the Government’s plan.

Not surprisingly, one of the critics was Transport for the North, and for that it has been stripped of its powers, which seems a very strange approach to levelling up. I join the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, in asking the Minister to explain why control of the Northern Powerhouse Rail project will now lie solely with central government—what is it that makes Ministers so sure that they know better than the people of the north about what they need in relation to railways?

The most high-profile decision was, of course, to truncate HS2 by abandoning the eastern leg. Those cities that had expected to be directly linked to a new 21st-century rail line have developed investment plans predicated on that and expected an economic boost along those lines. They now have to start again following a massive no-confidence vote by the Government. As the noble Lord said, transport spend per head is scarcely more than one-third of the size that it is in London. In her answer to me last Thursday, the Minister admitted that abandoning HS2 and reducing the Northern Powerhouse Rail plans

“saves the taxpayer billions of pounds.”—[Official Report, 18/11/21; col. 407.]

I suggest to the Minister that this approach is totally unacceptable. What do the Government plan to do to redress the balance now that their levelling-up promises to the north of England lie in tatters?

HS2 was always as much about capacity as speed. The Government are going instead for a patchwork of schemes, with short stretches of electrification. Digital signalling, which has long been promised, and longer platforms for longer trains will create some extra capacity but it does not compare with what a whole new railway would do. The Government promised to electrify 13,000 kilometres of railway by 2050 and so far have done 2.2% of that. So we are 235 years behind schedule. I ask the Minister: after all the stretches referred to in the plan have been completed, what percentage will we be on?

Finally, one of the reasons for building a new line is that the upgrading of existing lines is enormously disruptive. As a veteran of 10 years of Great Western’s electrification, I can attest to that. What calculations have the Government made of the cost of disruption for the lines they propose to upgrade?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for their considered responses to the integrated rail plan. I too had the opportunity, over the weekend, to read the documents in detail and consider the sorts of questions I might face today. Actually, noble Lords have not disappointed so far in the issues that they have raised—and I accept that they feel very strongly about this.

Having read the documents and considered this more carefully, I think the integrated rail plan is an elegant solution. We had a very outdated plan, the old plan, which did not properly take into account some developments, particularly from the national transport bodies, notably Transport for the North and Northern Powerhouse Rail, and Midlands Engine Rail, Midlands Connect and the Midlands Rail Hub. None of them had a proper look-in in the plans. We saw that costs were rising and that the whole thing did not fit well together, so it was absolutely right for the Government to go back, look at the plans, set them all out and consider what we are actually trying to achieve. The goal is not to build new railways; it is just something that enables people to get from A to B more quickly, more frequently and at a cheaper cost. That is what we are trying to do.

How we choose to do that is a combination of stretches of new railway, as noble Lords know, and some upgrades to existing railways. That is a very elegant situation that comes at a lower cost to the taxpayer. I will not and see no reason to apologise for that at all. It also happens much more quickly than it would otherwise, so we need to take a step back. There are a lot of winners here. I would like to be living in Nottingham, quite frankly; people there are going to have a great time. Good old Derby will have direct access to HS2, which it was nowhere close to prior to this. Also, all the places along the Midlands main line will get electrification and have more reliable journeys now. They did not even get a look-in in the old plans.

We have taken a more considered approach to the system as a whole. I accept that life has changed slightly for Leeds, but Leeds is also benefiting from this. We have said that we will spend £100 million on looking at how to get HS2 to Leeds. We will look at whether the current station can absorb the additional capacity and we will finally start work on the West Yorkshire mass transit system. This is great news for Leeds, so I do not share the doom and gloom of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, about its economic future. Actually, having a train line that goes to Manchester is just one of the things that people in Leeds might want; they might also want to travel around their own city on a mass transit system. I think we have been able to help Leeds in this regard. The impact on economies will be set out in the business cases for all the different schemes, as we go forward.

On TfN and its change of role, this is not at all unusual within the Department for Transport. We have a good relationship with TfN and it has an important role in providing us with statutory advice. However, the Northern Powerhouse Rail programme will be in the Government’s major projects portfolio and it requires clear accountability to the Secretary of State. Therefore, the client will be the Department for Transport, but that does not cut out Transport for the North. It has a joint sponsorship role, and again it is important that it can offer advice and knows what is going on with the project. In terms of delivery, however, it must be accountable to the Secretary of State to make sure that we keep things moving as we need to.

There was a comment about the Government not being a fan of devolution, on which I beg to differ. The city region sustainable transport settlements have committed £5.7 billion to our major cities. That is truly transport devolution on a large scale.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, came up with a litany of delays that had happened previously. I do not disagree that sometimes large transport infrastructure projects suffer from delays. None of us involved in transport likes delays but sometimes they happen. However, I am not entirely sure why they would not then happen to elements of HS2. Given that the previous full “Y” going all the way up was not going to be delivered until the mid-2040s, my goodness, we could be looking to the mid-2060s before that was delivered then, had it been delayed. I am not sure that that is necessarily a reason for not liking the Government’s plans.

On the issue of disruption, all transport infrastructure projects are disruptive. We know that. However, the approach taken by this IRP will cause less disruption that previous plans would have. For example, the HS2 eastern leg in full would have caused significant disruption to the motorway network. It would have crossed it 13 times. I am the Roads Minister—that disruption would have been quite challenging. We know that enhancements to existing lines will ease bottlenecks and make rail services more reliable. We will work very closely with the rail industry to minimise disruption as the schemes are developed and delivered.

I turn now to the issue of digital signalling. If I may, I will write on this issue so I can provide the most up-to-date information that I have.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, asked what percentage will be electrified when this is all finished. In my brief I have the figure of 75%, which I want to check. It feels right—but you think, okay, we are going to go from quite a small percentage to 75%. We are going to be electrifying hundreds of miles of railway line, so this probably is right but, again, I will write to 100% confirm that number. This is a huge electrification programme, as I am sure the noble Baroness will understand.

Let us turn to money. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, mentioned it and so did the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. This is the sort of thing that I get a little bit confused by. We are in a strange parallel universe where it matters only how much you are spending rather than what you are spending it on. That strikes me as bizarre. People are saying to me “But you are not spending this money on this railway line,”. No, but we are providing more benefits to more people, more quickly for less money. Surely that is a good thing.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, that I believe that the leader of the Opposition has in mind to establish something called the value for money office, should he ever become Prime Minister. He may well think that that is a very good idea. But I say to the noble Lord that, if he had the Government’s integrated rail plan at £96 billion—providing some pretty good service uplifts and some good improvements in journey times—versus the previous outdated plans costing £185 billion, and if he were to give those to this new-fangled value for money office, I wonder which one it would choose.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I hope that we are able to prove the noble Lord, Lord Snape, wrong in that regard. Obviously, we have done a significant amount of work on this and we believe it can be done. In terms of the fact that we have previously been advocating for a different style of network, I do not see that is a particular issue. Sometimes when the facts change, you have to change what you are proposing. The issue here is: do we have endless amounts of money? No, we do not. Can we deliver very good improvements to service for just under half the amount of money? I think we can. The other thing is that we can use the money we are not spending for other vital investments, so it is not such that that money is suddenly disappearing.

The noble Lord talked about capacity, and this is a really important point: the capacity constraints on the west coast main line are far greater than on the east coast main line. We will be able to get capacity improvements on the east coast mainline. It is far more important that we improve capacity on the west coast main line, which is why we have developed the plans that we have.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, Bradford does not come out very well, or have any joy, from this. I was very unhappy with the way in which the Minister answered questions on Thursday; I thought she was condescending to the House, which was inappropriate. I am glad that she is now engaging with the reasoned arguments others are making.

There are a number of inaccuracies in this paper. It refers to “introducing” an electrified line from Leeds to Bradford—but I travel on an electrified line from Leeds to the north of Bradford most weekends. It also refers to “electrifying” the Leeds to York section. I happened to travel on that on Monday of last week and the gantries for the electric wires are already up—so I suspect that the investment for that has already been made and it is not new money. So I puzzle over the accuracy of some of what is being said.

I ask, however, about capacity across the Pennines, because clearly the biggest cost of the new line from Leeds to Manchester via Bradford would have been the tunnel through the Pennines. The capacity across the Pennines is extremely tight and, unless one doubles the Standedge tunnel, you are going to have a choke point on upgrading the line between Leeds and Manchester via Huddersfield. Do the Government intend to double the Standedge tunnel, or would they consider that?

A cost-benefit analysis of the Calder Valley and north-east Lancashire—the latter being one of the poorest areas in England—would show that a more northerly line between Leeds and Manchester would spread benefits economically in a way which upgrading the current line simply will not do.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Well, I am very happy to write to the noble Lord on the detail of his question, as I am not well versed on the tunnels et cetera in the area to which he referred. I apologise if he felt that I was condescending to the House on Thursday. It is, of course, always very funny to be asked lots of questions based on the media rather than the actual documents, which had not been published at that time—and of course the questions were about upgrading, and I could not answer them. Maybe the noble Baroness had read the documents, but I had not, so I could not answer.

Bradford will benefit from electrification of the line to Leeds, and improved journey times will mean that you can get from Bradford to Leeds in 12 minutes—that is quite some distance in 12 minutes. I wish I could get that far in London. So it will benefit, and I think that we will look at various other projects as well. Part of the whole issue we are looking is the core pipeline work, which is set out in the Integrated Rail Plan, but we will look at any other scheme and service that will offer further improvements. This is exactly what the National Infrastructure Commission suggested that we do. This is the Integrated Rail Plan, and this is the core pipeline of work and, if noble Lords have suggestions for other schemes that would be affordable, would further improve our ability to improve services, and would be deliverable, I would really appreciate it if noble Lords would forward them to us.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, is it not the case that the credibility of these proposals depends on long-term political consensus? We are not here until 2040 and 2060, sitting around this Chamber. Years ago, I did a couple of jobs for the World Bank on transport infrastructure investment, returns and so on. It is absolutely vital that you nail down the fact that it has got to have long-term political consensus. In this country we are not even trying to do that in terms of the Government opening the door to other people to try to agree on some proposals.

Does the Minister recognise what Hilary Benn said the other day, that the proposals put forward as a long-term plan—for nearly a hundred years, as the Victorians did—would have had

“Victorian railway engineers scratching their heads in disbelief”?—[Official Report, Commons, 18/11/21; col. 740.]

What will the Government do to ensure there is scope for getting together proposals—including some of these—systematically to achieve a long-term cross-party consensus? That is the only way that they will not fall flat on their face.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I hope that I have just outlined to the noble Lord that we will continue to look at schemes that we can put in place in addition to the core pipeline. The RNIP will be published in due course. I hope that will reassure noble Lords that there is a programme in place, and that we will take forward some of the commitments that we have already made. As I have said, I look forward to hearing suggestions from whichever side of the House.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

One of the problems that the Government face is about expectations, and the rise in expectations as far as transport is concerned. The Secretary of State made a number of important announcements last week, some of which have been called for. The problems of overruns in railways—I certainly had my fair share of them when I was Secretary of State—is common to the industry. I wish Network Rail well in its attempts to keep these under control. I come to the point that HS2, which will be 75% built as originally put forward, was always about capacity. It is very important that the question of capacity be properly addressed. I see from the plan published by the Secretary of State last week that the Government are still looking at options for HS2 to Leeds. The areas that have blight at the moment, because they are being considered as options for that, will continue to have that blight. I hope that the Government will come to conclusions on those options as quickly as possible. I wish my noble friend well, and I wish the Government well in ensuring that the public transport that we all want to see is actually delivered.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I appreciate the wise words of my noble friend. It is the case to a certain extent that some people’s expectations were not met by this plan but, as I have said, there are many things to commend it. I have already mentioned Nottingham and Derby, and there are so many other places that will benefit from this plan. This really is building back better but also with better value for money. I know that a number of noble Lords have questions around capacity. I will include in my letter to noble Lords how we intend to improve capacity in various ways on different parts of the railway; it is all set out in the plan but it might be helpful if I draw it all together for noble Lords. I will also perhaps arrange an open meeting with Minister Stephenson so that noble Lords can quiz him; he is the person who knows this back to front.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, in reaching the decision to end the HS2 track in the east Midlands rather than Leeds, and HS2 trains at Sheffield rather than Newcastle, what economic impact assessment was done by the Government of the effects on both Yorkshire and the north-east—given that private developer investment will inevitably follow the HS2 track due to the extra capacity that it will provide—or is it the case that no impact assessment on Yorkshire and the north-east has actually been done?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I explained previously, different places are getting different things. The impact from an economic perspective will therefore be varied. The integrated rail plan gives more certainty to people who want to invest in various places. Quite frankly, I were a business, I would still look very favourably on Leeds. It is about to have a mass transit system that no one has previously managed to give it.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, I was back in Yorkshire at the weekend, as I am sure everyone would expect. It is hard to convey the anger and sense of betrayal felt across the whole of the north, but particularly in the whole of Yorkshire. There are so many issues to discuss but, frankly, Leeds does not need to be told from down here exactly what is good for it. While a tram will be very welcome it does not in any way, shape or form compensate for the loss of connectivity or address the congestion of Leeds station, given the cancelling of the proposals that the plan put forward last week.

I was going to ask the Minister about the upgrading of the lines and the chaos it will cause. We all remember the timetabling chaos. If the work east of Marsden is not addressed with alternative routes, goodness knows what is going to happen to us. Throughout the document, which I read, there is reference to post-Covid changes of transport use—the fact that the tram will take away the need for investment in the station. Is the Minister aware that levels of passenger use going through Leeds station are already back to pre-Covid levels, and that at weekends it is actually above that level? Please, what are the plans doing to address the fact that if we do not get the investment we need, Leeds City station will fall over within the next four or five years?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I just reiterate that we have absolutely not ruled out getting HS2 to Leeds. It is part of the wider pipeline of work that we are considering; obviously, the station is critical to that as well; as is the mass transit. Among the key things that I need to reassure noble Lords of in this are the capacity and track improvements, along with the digital signalling and all the things that we hope to do on the east coast main line. As I said earlier, it is not as needful of extra capacity as the west coast main line. We believe that by making the improvements, we will see faster journey times to Leeds, Darlington, Newcastle and Edinburgh. We will also see those journey times reduce far sooner than we would have done with the old plans.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, I too live in Yorkshire and am proud to do so. I can confirm that there is an extraordinary sense of anger and betrayal as regards the plan for rail infrastructure in the county. I want to address the issue of rail freight, which has one page in the document—one page. There is a line in the document which says that the aim is to take road haulage off the M62 and transfer it to rail. I hope the Minister can answer on this, because within the plan there are no specific aims for the volume of haulage that it is intended to get off road and on to rail. There are no specific proposals for hubs and terminals where the exchange can take place. There is nothing about logistics, which are essential, and no specifics for rail infrastructure other than a possibility—I think that is the word in the plan—of a third track on the part of the trans-Pennine route from Huddersfield to Marsden. Of course, following Marsden is the Standedge tunnel, which has already been raised.

Can the Minister provide details as to how this modal shift from road to rail is going to occur, in what volume and to what timescale? While I am at it, she mentioned that £200 million has been allocated for mass transit in Leeds so I quickly ask her: since £100 million of that has already been allocated to a discussion about how to get HS2 to Leeds, and there is only £100 million for the Leeds transit, what will that buy?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The work on Leeds mass transit will be driven by West Yorkshire Combined Authority. It will be its plan, but we will support it on that and ensure that we can get the best possible outcome for the people of Leeds in terms of getting mass transit in place. As the noble Baroness knows, West Yorkshire Combined Authority received a very good settlement from the CRSTS. As that extends for only five years and this will need longer development than that, we commit to continue working with the authority on the mass transit system.

The noble Baroness mentioned rail freight. She is right that this does not leap out of the pages of the IRP, but it is not really supposed to. Rail freight is absolutely a feature of the Williams-Shapps rail review and the work we are doing there. As we put in place Great British Railways, we will focus on national co-ordination of rail freight, again looking for projects to make sure that this can happen as easily as possible.

As I have mentioned numerous times, this is not the end and there are other projects that could be added to this to improve it. We will introduce a new, rules-based track access regime with a statutory underpinning for freight and open-access operators. Essentially, we want to maximise the usage of a very extensive and expensive national asset. Rail freight is at the core of much of what we are doing on the railways, as well as many of our wider discussions on freight.

[Lord Walney (CB)]

My Lords, as has been said, reduced passenger numbers are mentioned at a number of points in the document as justification for some of the changes. Can the Minister confirm whether changed modelling in predictions of journeys has been part of that? If that has not been locked into the numbers, or if there is so much uncertainty over those numbers, does that not mean that there is a grave risk that even the reduced expansion which was announced last week could be further reduced if hybrid working creates more of a structured change in passenger flows than previously thought?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord raises a really important question. I have stood at this Dispatch Box and been asked many times how we will change capacity based on what has happened post Covid. We are confident that things will continue to change and that we will see greater usage. We are also quite sure that that usage may not look exactly the same as it did.

One of the biggest issues with the old plan was that it was not properly integrated with other local, regional and national transport networks. We think we can do that much better. Detailed modelling and up-to-date forecasting will happen whenever a business case goes through its various stages. I would not expect any wholesale changes, but this may lead us to think about what infill and other schemes we might consider in order to maximise our initial investment in the IRP. That might be something we should look at in light of future forecasts for demand.

Rail Infrastructure: North of England

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Thursday 18th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to improve rail infrastructure in the north of England.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, this Government will be investing more than £35 billion in rail over the spending review period, including rail enhancements and vital renewals to improve passenger journeys and connectivity across the country, focusing on the Midlands and the north to level up the economy. Furthermore, the Government have today published our independent rail plan, a £96 billion programme to transform services in the Midlands and the north.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, there has not been a major new rail line in the north of England since the Victorians. The Government promised to change that. Northern Powerhouse Rail was announced seven years ago, and the Government have re-announced it 60 times, but today’s announcement turns its back on that. Does the Minister accept that haphazard dollops of money—a scattergun approach to rail upgrades—will not create a transformation, and that cancelling the HS2 eastern leg is seen in cities such as Sheffield, York, Leeds and Bradford as nothing else than another broken promise?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I advise the noble Baroness to read the documents, which, when I left my office just now, had not actually been published. If she were to look at the integrated rail plan, she would see that it is comprehensive and very well thought through. It sets out exactly how the different pots of money will be used to create the sort of system that delivers for people in the north far sooner than other plans were going to. It also saves the taxpayer billions of pounds.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Haselhurst (Con)]

My Lords, I think I should say that I am very grateful for this further opportunity to speak. If, as it now appears, the Government are backing away from large-scale rail infrastructure projects in the north in favour of less-costly targeted schemes, does this allow other regions, such as the east of England, to dare to hope that the damage they have suffered from the Beeching cuts will be reversed sooner rather than later?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is not quite right to say that the Government are backing away from away from large-scale projects, as the IRP—when he is able to read it—will demonstrate to him. However, my noble friend is right that Network Rail has recently completed a study on the west Anglia main line and we are considering its findings. Network Rail is required to conduct similar studies for all parts of the network, and these provide helpful advice to government on potential investments for the future.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

Has the Minister seen the front-page banner headline in today’s Yorkshire Post? It says: “PM breaks his own rail pledge.” I want to ask a question about Leeds—and I gladly declare to the House what you might call a family connection. To be practical, can the Minister explain what impact today’s plans are going to have on a station such as Leeds where, as I understand it, HS2 would have had the effect of freeing up platforms for much-needed extra capacity? Without HS2, the existing platforms are going to have to cope with all existing and future demands.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, it is very difficult to have a sensible discussion on this topic on the basis of front pages of the media. It is impossible that the noble Viscount has been able have a look at the documents which, as we know are being published, possibly as we speak. However, I can assure him that we are well aware that Leeds is an incredibly important station. It is the fourth busiest in the country outside London. Passenger demand has increased by 30% over the last 10 years and the Government are committing to £100 million to look at the options for how to run HS2 services to Leeds, to build capacity and also to finally develop and deliver a mass transit system for Leeds.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

I have a little quiz for the Minister. I am sure she will be able to come up with the right answer, but here goes. Which city has half a million people, considerable deprivation, a train service that takes over 20 minutes at just over 30 miles an hour to go nine miles to take people to jobs and connect them to the rest of the country and where 74% of jobseekers give poor transport links as a major barrier to getting on in life? Having named the city—and I am sure the Minister will be able to—perhaps she will, since she is so excited about the integrated rail plan, be able to confirm that that city is going to have its brand- new railway station which will give it the connectivity it needs and deserves.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I have failed. I hear from behind me Halifax.

[Noble Lords]

Bradford!

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Bradford—ah, when the noble Baroness has been able to read the documents that are about to be published, she will see in there that we will be electrifying the route from Bradford to Leeds. The journey time will be hugely more reliable—it will take 12 minutes.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

The economy of the West Midlands, and Birmingham in particular, has been boosted by the construction and pending completion of the fast new rail service that is HS2. Despite what the Minister has been seeking to say, it appears that Leeds and the local West Yorkshire economy will now be denied the estimated full £54 billion of economic benefits of their HS2 link. Leeds, for example, will be a less attractive venue than it would have been for new and expanding businesses without its promised high-speed rail links. Northern Powerhouse Rail delivered in full was also set to deliver £22 billion for northern economies, including Bradford, by 2060, according to a report by Mott MacDonald. What is the Government’s estimate of the loss of projected economic benefits to Leeds and the West Yorkshire economy of the decision to backtrack on previous promises on the HS2 high-speed rail link to Leeds and on full delivery of Northern Powerhouse Rail? What is the loss of those economic benefits that were projected?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As the noble Lord will see when he gets to read the documents that are being published today, a huge number of projects are being brought together, and so many of those are around Leeds. It is the case that the core part of Northern Powerhouse Rail will be constructed, and that will provide those fast links through to Manchester. It is the case that there will be significant upgrades to the east coast main line and, of course, there will be electrification of the Midlands main line. Combining that with the construction of a mass transit system, I think, somehow, that Leeds is going to be all right.

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

My Lords, I look forward to reading today’s document, and I hope it is good news for the north and the Midlands. I appreciate that I am a lone voice on this matter but, given that HS2 has been the disaster that everybody thought it would be, is doing huge damage to the environment, is going to bring little benefit to anybody and is costing now, or is supposed to cost, £150 billion and counting, could the Government not consider—if they cannot scrap it, which I think they should, even though it has cost money already—pruning it back seriously as quickly as possible and using the money saved and the expertise gained to look after railways in the West Midlands and the north of England?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I suppose we are doing a small amount of what would make my noble friend happy. We have looked at the different options. I would be the first person to stand there and warmly welcome a brand-new, big, expensive, shiny rail system— I love them. However, sometimes they take many decades to build, and they can be very expensive, and sometimes they just fly by various communities. What we have done is look at the amount of money that we have, the options that we have and the opportunities that we have to join up many more of the communities that were being missed out by previous plans. I am sure when we come back to discuss the integrated rail plan, we can go into that in more detail.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

Can the Minister confirm that upgrading an existing Victorian railway as opposed to building a brand-new railway is not a pain-free option? It will lead inevitably to weekend closures, disruptions to services, replacement bus services and all the paraphernalia of building a railway while you are trying to run one at the same time. How long will this disruption continue? Can the Minister also please tell us why it takes us far longer to build high-speed railways in this country compared with all our competitor countries and longer even than it took the Victorians who built them with picks and shovels?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord is quite right to highlight the disruption caused by construction. It is the case, whether you are upgrading the east coast main line or, indeed, constructing a brand-new, HS2-type railway that there is disruption. We try to keep the disruption to the minimum. Obviously, when the RNEP is published and all of the programme is set out, we will be able to see how long each element of the plan is going to take and when the disruption will happen. Of course, the Government will try to minimise that as much as possible.

Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2021

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 9th November 2021 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2021.

Relevant document: 17th Report from the Secondary Legislation Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, first, I bring to your Lordships’ attention a matter relating to one of the SIs to be debated in Grand Committee today. It relates to the SI that covers the removal of the car and trailer driving test, which was due to come into force on 15 November and was debated in the other place yesterday. For procedural reasons, the SI will now be unable to be approved by the other place by 15 November, so we are exploring all options with the House authorities about bringing in an identical SI with an amended date in the future. I hope that noble Lords agree with me that it remains appropriate to debate the substance of these SIs, as planned, in Grand Committee today.

These two statutory instruments, along with the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulations 2021, which follows the negative procedure, are a package of measures designed to increase driving examiner availability and allocate this time to test heavy goods vehicle drivers, thereby helping to reduce the acute HGV driver shortage in this country. This is a global issue. It has affected the haulage industry for many years, but it has been further exacerbated by the coronavirus pandemic, which meant that driver testing had to be suspended for much of last year. During this time, the shortage increased further as new drivers could not join the industry to replace those leaving.

The shortage of HGV drivers affects the supply chains not only of fresh food but of fuel, medicines and medical equipment across Great Britain. We therefore need to tackle this matter with urgency, and these SIs are part of the 30 interventions that the Government are putting in place to tackle the shortage of drivers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

My Lords, most of my comments will be directed towards the (Amendment) (No.2) regulations and to the report of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which homed in particular on that order.

Under these regulations, the obligation is removed for some car drivers towing a trailer to have to take the additional test. As the Minister said, that is to free up capacity and enable more test appointments to be fitted in each month for heavy goods vehicle licences in a bid to address the current shortage of HGV drivers. No doubt the Minister in her response may wish to comment on the extent to which that shortage has been eased or the extent to which it continues.

The regulations also remove the requirement in relation to the staged access route to licence acquisition for heavy goods vehicle and bus licences, which will also free up driving examiner time and shorten the amount of time that it takes for a driver to become qualified to drive the largest heavy goods vehicles.

I understand that the category B towing test will not be abolished, because it is still needed by anyone wishing to drive a trailer in the EU. The regulations simply remove the obligation to take the test before towing in the UK, and will be reviewed after three years and then every five years after that, which frankly suggests that the Department for Transport see these changes to all intents and purposes as being permanent, rather than being a short-term measure to address the current heavy goods vehicle driver shortage—unless, of course, the Department for Transport envisages that shortage going on for years and years.

The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee has drawn the attention of the House to the regulations, not least in respect of the potential safety implications. There are, apparently, about 1,000 collision injury accidents or incidents involving trailers each year. It is not clear whether the Government do or do not expect that figure to be affected by the removal of the towing test. Frankly, at the moment, I do not think the Government even have a view, since the Department for Transport has indicated that a risk assessment on road safety will form part of the impact assessment, which is fine, apart from the fact that the impact assessment will not be cleared for publication until the end of this month at the earliest. I note what the Minister said at the beginning, and that the regulations were intended to come into effect this coming Monday.

The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee said:

“We view this as poor practice.”


It is right. Once again, the Department for Transport has been slow to react, caught out by a driver shortage that it did not address in time, despite it being in large measure of the Government’s own making, thanks to their own particular brand of hard Brexit. The committee commented:

“It is part of the purpose of an IA”—


an impact assessment—

“to provide information on what options, including non-legislative options, were considered and why they were not adopted. Because the IA has not been made available to the House alongside the instrument, we are unclear about why possible alternatives were rejected … From the date this instrument comes into effect, any car driver will be able to tow a trailer but DfT has provided no estimate of the additional numbers that that might attract or the likelihood of incidents that might follow.”

However, the department asserts:

“There is not currently any statistical evidence to suggest that competence and skills will worsen if drivers do not take a statutory test to tow a trailer … it is therefore difficult to identify how much the car trailer test … has made a difference since it was introduced in 1997 or that there is a causal link between road safety and the test.”


I do not know for how many years that has been the Department for Transport’s view—perhaps the Minister could respond to that point in the Government’s reply—but if the Government do not know whether there are any safety benefits to the statutory test to tow a trailer, and have not taken any steps over the past 11 years to find out, that does not appear to say much for their much-vaunted campaign to reduce bureaucracy and unnecessary red tape.

Safety was, however, a concern of a significant percentage of those responding to the consultation on the amendment to the regulations: a third of the 8,750-odd respondents expressed safety concerns. As I understand it—I am sure that I will be corrected if I am wrong—the DVSA advises that anyone intending to drive a car with a trailer for the first time should still first take training from a driving instructor. What steps are being taken to publicise this advice?

Moving on, is it not the reality that the Government hope that people affected by these regulations will, either individually or through their firms, still undertake the aspects of the required training that these regulations will remove? This was indicated frankly in the Minister’s response to the chair of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, in which there was a reference to the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency

“exploring industry-led accredited training that could offer a standardised non-statutory testing approach. The DVSA has received strong support for an accreditation training scheme which is also generating considerable interest from companies who tow as part of their business and we are progressing discussions urgently.”

That letter also stated:

“We know through DVSA’s stakeholder engagement, that there is a strong indication from professional business users that they will continue to undergo Category B+E training to ensure staff are safe and competent and that their corporate responsibilities are fulfilled.”


This certainly indicates that, as far as professional businesses are concerned, they regard the B+E training as necessary to ensure that staff are safe and competent. The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee concluded:

“The Department failed to provide any indication of the instrument’s wider effects when the instrument was laid and, in response to our follow-up questions, DfT was unable to explain what effect the removal of the BE licence will have on road safety.”


I conclude by simply asking whether the Government will in their response comment on the recommendations of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee in its report on the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2021. The first was,

“We recommend that the DfT should review the current complex arrangements for what car and van drivers are permitted to tow and, if needed, replace them with a simpler licensing system. That decision should be based on evidence rather than the current experimental approach”.


Secondly, it said that the department should

“provide an annual Written Statement setting out towing accident figures as a reassurance that it will be in a position to undertake remedial action swiftly if a problem emerges”

and, thirdly, that the Minister should provide “more specific details about” the “wider safety implications” of the instrument, since the House

“has insufficient information to enable proper assessment of the policy”.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank all noble Lords for their contributions today and for enabling this debate to go ahead in the circumstances. I am very grateful, and I have appreciated the input of all noble Lords. I have listened to their concerns and suggestions very carefully, and I will write, as there is a bit of extra detail that I will give.

Returning to the overall driver shortage, the Government have been aware of it since 2010, but the issue is that it so is multifaceted that it is very difficult to pin down. We estimate the size of the acute shortage to be around 39,000, but there are numbers out there of 70,000 and 100,000, so what is not being delivered if those drivers are not available? I have asked the sector many times. The reality is that the lack of those drivers is about sector resilience and ensuring that people who are in the sector are not feeling that their shifts are too long, or whatever. We believe that the acute shortage is around 39,000. I am not going play EU bingo with the various shortages in the other countries. Suffice it to say that there are shortages in other countries, and they are something we are all dealing with.

To briefly pick up on the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, about visas, I will check that, because we do not do late parliamentary questions. I think it is because it might have gone to Defra, and that will be the reason—not that it does late parliamentary questions, but there is the transfer, if you know what I mean.

There is an international shortage. We sort of know the size of the shortage, but I would love firmer data on it. It is incredibly difficult to assess a precise number in this fast-moving environment. It has got better. One of the things that I have been following very closely is the number of people asking for application forms from the DVLA to apply for an HGV provisional licence, which has gone up massively, as has the number of licences and provisional licences going out of the other end. Now we have to get those people into the training system and then into the testing system. Having sorted out DVLA and testing, I am now turning my attention to the bit in the middle, which is obviously a private sector affair, but we will be working with it so that it increases its capacity as much as possible.

I am so sorry to hear about my noble friend’s issue with his driving licence. I have some good news: my daughter passed her driving test a couple of days ago, and she received her licence like that. I am happy to take up any concerns noble Lords have about their treatment by the DVLA, but I am pleased to say that on HGV licences it is back to normal processing times. That also applies to buses.

On the road safety aspect of this, it is incredibly complicated and we are working at pace. I appreciate that we do not have an impact assessment that noble Lords can point to, so I will do what I can to assuage noble Lords’ concerns.

Again, there is a significant challenge with data here. People will often come up with anecdotes about how they saw a trailer doing X, Y, Z—I have seen cars and buses doing all sorts of dreadful things—but actual data is one of our big challenges. As the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, pointed out, in STATS19, 865 incidents involved a car or vehicle with a trailer, which is 0.45% of the total incidents in the entire year. That is a very small amount, but it does not matter; it still has to be considered.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend makes a good suggestion. I am responsible for National Highways, but it does not collect incident data; it all comes from the police. We will of course look at any data that we can get from various sources. This will be part of the work we do in the coming period because the other issue in all this is that incidents often happen because of poor trailer maintenance. That has nothing to do with the B+E test; it is caused by people driving around trailers that are not roadworthy. DVSA enforcement picks up vehicles that are not roadworthy all the time, and may prohibit them from being on the road, but again, that is not related to the B+E driving test. I am happy to have a meeting with my noble friend about the H licence.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, brought up the response to the consultation. The consultation closed on 7 September and we announced it on 10 September. We were able to do that so quickly because much of it came through electronically, and we were monitoring responses as we went. There is a short summary of our response on the web, but we will issue a fuller response in due course.

I am not entirely sure about the issue with us reducing the standard of bus driver trainers. If the noble Baroness writes to me, I will look into that more, because we have not changed the standards for trainers in the bus sector at all. Again, they have no delay in getting licences or tests; it is the bit in the middle. But many bus companies have good training departments, so I am pleased about that.

A number of noble Lords mentioned the impact assessment. We recognise that we need one and that it cannot be rushed because it requires an awful lot of analysis. We will try to publish it as soon as possible, once it has been through the Regulatory Policy Committee. Once again, I am happy to have a meeting with noble Lords once that is available.

On recognition overseas, my noble friend Lord Naseby asked about Northern Ireland, which is responsible for its own road regulations. It would therefore make its own decision about this. GB licences continue to be recognised in Northern Ireland. Drivers who travel abroad will be covered under international road traffic regulations. We are in discussions with other countries to make them aware of these changes and will report back if there are significant changes to this.

The accreditation scheme is one of the other factors we need to think about when it comes to road safety. When it is set up, it will be targeted at everybody who wants to tow a trailer of any weight when, previously, training was very much for people who needed it to pass the test or tow a heavier trailer. We will be looking at all people towing trailers, particularly the 16 million of us—I sense noble Lords are in the same bucket as me—who have grandfather rights: “I am going to tow a trailer. I have always been able to tow a trailer. I have just chosen not to, as I prefer larger articulated lorries when I am given the opportunity”. This is one of the other factors that we need to consider. It may well be that we will see a significant increase because all sorts of people will take up this accredited scheme because it is available and widely communicated. We will work with the industry and all sorts of people to make sure that people are aware of the scheme.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked about employers, who we know are very keen on this—but that is not unusual. Employers often provide a higher level of training for their workforce for all sorts of different reasons. It is not just the case that you pass your driving test and head into a haulage firm, for example, and that is it, your training is done. So, whether it be for a vehicle and a trailer or an articulated lorry, it is always the case that more training goes on, so I am not surprised to hear that that is what the industry will do.

I have rattled through most of what I wanted to say. I will definitely pick up Hansard to make sure that I have gone through all of the points, and I would be very happy to meet noble Lords in due course, perhaps to chat about this again, when the accreditation scheme is developed a bit further and when we have the impact assessment. We can look through all of the information we have at that time.

Motion agreed.

Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2021

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 9th November 2021 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2021.

Relevant document: 15th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee (special attention drawn to the instrument)

Motion agreed.