Vehicles: Purchase Price and Running Costs

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 24th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, while the upfront purchase price for electric vehicles remains higher than for their petrol or diesel equivalents, in many cases these vehicles are cheaper to own and run. Generous tax incentives are in place, which, alongside fuel and maintenance savings, reduce the total cost of ownership.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the Fair Charge report highlighted the discrepancies in VAT for private and public EV charging. As energy prices rise, the discrepancy becomes even greater in real terms. There is a realistic danger that EVs will be seen as too expensive, although the Government, of course, get a greater income from tax as energy prices have risen. I realise it is difficult for the Minister to know what government policy is likely to be later this week, but will she undertake urgently to press whoever happens to be running the Treasury to reduce VAT on public charge points to 5%, in order to encourage EV take-up among all sections of society?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am very happy to outline what government policy is. As the noble Baroness will know, and as is always the case when taxes are referred to, all taxes are kept under review. It should be stressed that the reduced VAT on domestic supply reduces bills for households by £5 billion a year. Most people do not charge their electric vehicles exclusively at public charge points. However, I accept that that discrepancy exists and, as I said, we keep taxes under review.

[Lord Patel (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister believe that the UK strategy on battery production is still viable, particularly given the recent media reports related to Britishvolt and the decision to move the production of electric Minis to China from Oxford? Does that show a loss of confidence in the strategy?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I do not think it is a loss of confidence in the strategy. The Government’s intention is that the UK remains at the forefront of EV manufacture, innovation and batteries; that is why we have the Faraday fund and the automotive transformation fund. All these elements are really important, but I accept that some companies will come into the market, and some will leave. There will be some flux, but at the moment, we are not concerned.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, that sounds like a very laissez-faire attitude. What discussions have the Government had with BMW about this very unfortunate decision?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As far as I am aware, the Department for Transport has not had any discussions with BMW about this very unfortunate decision. However, I will inquire with colleagues in BEIS as to whether they have. But, as I say, there are always changes within any particular manufacturing sector. None of us wants the Mini to be produced in China and it may well be that other models come back to the UK.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as an owner of an electric Mini and a diesel car. The electric Mini is one of the best cars I have ever had. It costs nothing to run because I charge it from sunlight from my solar panels. What on earth are the Government doing by allowing this icon of British industry to be changed and moved to China?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Of course, a lot of the design and innovation that went into the Mini did come from the UK, but the Government are clearly not going to get involved in some decisions by private companies as to where they do their manufacturing. However, we can provide support to companies to make sure that they do manufacture in the UK and that is why we have the automotive transformation fund.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, can the Minister reassure the House that the end-life of EV batteries will not be landfill? Also, can she update the House on government support for research into the remanufacturing of EV batteries?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

It is really important that we understand what happens to batteries throughout their lives. It is the case though that there are 20 million EVs on the world’s roads already and there is no evidence to suggest that their lifespans are any different from those of a petrol or a diesel vehicle. We expect that many EV batteries will have a guarantee of about eight years, or 100,000 miles. As for the end of their lifespan, it is very important that we focus on recycling. Of course, the Government are focused on that, and I will write to the noble Baroness with more information.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

Is now not a good time for His Majesty’s Government to have a whole look? We have the strategy of 2030 ahead of us, when petrol cars are supposed to disappear, but at this point in time we have a situation where electric cars are hugely expensive; they are not available at a competitive price for ordinary families. Ordinary families living in tower blocks in my former constituency cannot recharge those cars, so is it not time that we had a look at the whole strategy openly and took a little time about it to ensure that we have a policy that is workable in the future, taking into consideration the point added by my noble friend on the Bench below?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The price of electric vehicles has fallen dramatically over recent years, and that was helped by the Government providing quite significant grants in the early years to ensure that the prices were lower. There are now 24 models that cost less than £32,000 new—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

If I may finish—because I too would not buy a new car for £32,000—the second-hand market, in my view, is the key to getting widescale acceptance from, and affordable vehicles to, the consuming public. The second-hand market is getting stronger. The biggest suppliers to it are the fleets, and we are working with them to ensure that their models get to the second-hand market.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, the transition to electric vehicles is vital to the survival of our society as we know it; the impact of climate change is even worse in many other countries. The report sets out some sensible recommendations to help on the way. Which, if any, of the three or two-plus-two recommendations does the Minister reject, and why?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am afraid that I am not familiar with the recommendations in the report.

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

My Lords, do the Government have a strategy to deal with financial incentives being given by the Chinese Government to entice British firms to move to China, and if so, what is it?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will have to refer to the relevant department, but it is of course the case that the UK Government also provide support to various companies to invest in the UK and to create jobs here. All countries will have their own strategies, but I will write to the noble Baroness with more information.

[Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)]

Will my noble friend agree to speak to her colleagues at Defra about the huge shortage of electric charging points on our inland waterways? There is a disproportionate amount of diesel and petrol boats, particularly on the Thames, which are heavily polluting—I declare an interest as an owner of an electric boat—but the reason that there are not more electric boats is simply the paucity of charging stations.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend raises a very important point. The Government are very focused on the decarbonisation of the maritime sector, whether that be inland or on sea, so I will certainly speak to Defra, but I will also write to my noble friend, because I think that there is more that I can say on inland waterways.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, is it not even more important to get people to stop using their cars as much as possible, whether they are electric, diesel or petrol, and go on the train? Is not that even more difficult, as I found this morning, when the 8.30 am and the 9.30 am trains from Edinburgh were cancelled because there were no staff available? The noble Baroness, Lady Ramsay, and the noble Lord, Lord Maxton, are stuck on a train. They were turfed off at Preston and had to catch another train. That is not reliable. What is the Minister doing to get reliability in our long-distance trains?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I absolutely agree with the noble Lord. There are some circumstances on our trains where the service is not very good at all. We are working very closely with some of those providers that are not providing the level of service that we want, because the Government’s goal is to provide choice. If people want to be able to use the trains, we have to have trains that actually work. We are very focused on that, and I am sure that the noble Lord will have seen comments from the Secretary of State for Transport regarding how we feel about the services being offered.

Merchant Shipping (High Speed Craft) Regulations 2022

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 17th October 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 4 and 7 July be approved.

Considered in Grand Committee on 11 October.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move the two Motions standing in my name on the Order Paper en bloc.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, should the noble Lord not have sought the leave of the House when taking two together?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, indeed, the noble Baroness—not the noble Lord—should have done. With the leave of the House, I beg to move that the two Motions standing in my name on the Order Paper be considered en bloc.

Motions agreed.

Seafarers’ Wages Bill [HL]

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 12th October 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, the amendments in this group relate to the territorial scope of the Bill and the vessels to which this legislation applies. Seafarers across the board deserve proper compensation for their work and I welcome the opportunity to consider whether the Bill, in its present form, achieves this. To this end, I hope the Minister will clarify that all workers on the vessels listed in these amendments are already covered. When we landlubbers think of seafarers, we often picture those who directly control vessels, but the definition is incredibly wide and covers everyone from cleaners to the administrative staff on board. I hope the Minister comments on the Government’s approach to supporting better wages and conditions for all seafarers.

Amendment 5 in my name is a probing amendment and it is key. It seeks information from the Minister on the state of negotiations, particularly those with France and the Republic of Ireland, on the corridor concept. This Bill, which we support, is one small step towards addressing the issue of seafarers’ terms and conditions.

I respect what my noble friend Lord Berkeley just said but, at the end of the day, if these international conventions have achieved utopia for seamen, I would hate to see hell. Wages seem incredibly, unacceptably low in an international world. Perhaps that is not so true in the wider world, but they seem unacceptably low in Europe. I hope the Government put all possible energy into negotiations with other European states to establish these corridors. It sets a precedent for the worldwide consideration that seafarers deserve a better deal than they are getting.

Amendment 23 would prevent the refusal of harbour access where doing so would break international maritime law. In any situation in which harbour access is refused, in framing the appropriate guidance, a Government must have considered the safety and environmental implications of refusal. It moves to the general view that we must work on the international agreements in parallel and seek to ensure, as does the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, that the various conventions not only exist but are universally and even-handedly implemented.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the careful consideration of this Bill by all noble Lords. I reiterate what I have already said to noble Lords in private sessions: the Government are listening to concerns and will endeavour to answer in full all the questions raised by your Lordships today. I suspect that some will certainly be in writing, and I may well try to develop on some on some of the things I am able to say today so that we have full information as we head towards Report.

I sense that there are slightly differing views around the Committee, where some people want this to go much further and others are very cautious. Of course, both of those views potentially risk the Bill itself. I therefore just want to make sure that everybody has as much information as I can get out, particularly around the Government’s intent with the Bill and why it is drafted as it is. Noble Lords will have heard the previous Secretary of State speak about the nine-point plan many times, which was in response to the P&O decision that was made back in March. We recognise that this Bill is narrow in scope and potentially also in effect, as we cannot legislate outside UK territorial waters. It is none the less an important part of the nine-point plan that this sits hand in glove with the other work that we are doing to improve the welfare of seafarers to make sure that their terms and conditions are as good as they can be.

The amendments in this first group cover territorial scope and international law and I will try to address them in turn. Amendment 1 from the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, seeks to probe the application of the Bill in various circumstances. I completely accept the way that he introduced this and that he had intended some separate amendments that were deemed to be out of scope. It is worth making sure that the different groups of seafarers who he identified in his amendment are indeed covered. To look at it in more detail, on proposed new subsection (1A)(a), seafarers working or ordinarily working in the UK, including UK internal or territorial waters if the vessel is not exercising a right to innocent passage, are already entitled to the national minimum wage. That stems from Section 1(2)(b) of the National Minimum Wage Act 1998 and Article 2 of the National Minimum Wage (Offshore Employment) Order 1999. That change is therefore unnecessary, and I think the noble Lord would agree.

On proposed new subsection (1A)(b), voyages to or from the Crown dependencies would already be in scope of this Bill under the service definition in Clause 1. Of course, I recognise at this point that the UK Government can legislate only in the waters of the UK; therefore, it would be a similar circumstance as one would have, for example, with a journey to France.

On proposed new subsection (1A)(c), under Article 2 of the National Minimum Wage (Offshore Employment) Order 1999, a worker working or ordinarily working in connection with the exploration of the seabed or subsoil or the exploitation of natural resources in the UK sector of the continental shelf is treated as if they are working, or ordinarily work, in the UK. Those workers are therefore already entitled to the national minimum wage, so, again subject to the caveat about UK territorial waters, those workers are covered—ditto those who are working on services to offshore renewable energy installations. Again, I note that some of those may be far away from UK territorial waters. I hope that that reassures the noble Lord.

I note the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, that it is not only the people who are in control of the ship. When I think about this, I do not think about the people in control of the ship but of all the other people on board, who do the really important day-to-day tasks that are sometimes forgotten. I accept that this is about making sure that we cover everybody on board, and I am satisfied that we do.

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[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, this is a useful set of amendments to clarify some of the points. I hope that the Minister will either be able to provide that clarification or, if she wants to worry about the syntax of her reply, supply it in a careful letter.

I have two amendments in this group. Amendment 10 seeks to replace 120 with 52 in Clause 3(3), so I sit alongside my noble friend Lord Berkeley and the noble Baroness, Lady Scott. My noble friend made a persuasive case for 50, as opposed to 52, and I will need considerable persuasion not to press this point on Report, unless the Minister is able to create a very powerful argument that there would be unintended consequences from that.

Amendment 36 seeks, in essence, to stop the effects of the Bill being, in a sense, destroyed by repeated regulations. Surely the Bill’s minimum requirements are in the primary legislation, and the adjustments to them should really be only upwards, not reducing the requirements.

I also join the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, in her concern about the DPRRC’s concerns. In my day, if it produced a recommendation, we used to shake in our boots and recognise that some deal or other had to be made with it because of the authority it carried. Once again, I hope the Government will recognise the authority and wisdom of that committee and accede to its suggestions.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I am again grateful to noble Lords for sharing their thoughts on this group of amendments. The thrust of the amendments in this group is very much around probing the scope of the Bill in terms of the services and ships to which it applies. As the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, noted, I will write. I do not think he was implying that my oral replies are not carefully thought through—maybe he was—but the letter will be perfect. Noble Lords should await further information in the letter, but I will try to cover as many points as I can.

I look at this borderline, grey-area conversation that noble Lords are having, and at the back of my mind I keep thinking, “What sort of an operator are you if you will go to a different port in order to drop your frequency down to be just under or over any particular target so that you don’t have to pay your seafarers the national minimum wage equivalent in UK waters?”

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

P&O?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Well, because of that we will come on to why it is so important that the Bill refers to services rather than ships; otherwise, quite frankly, you could do that, and all sorts of very interesting things. I will try to go through some of the amendments and think carefully about how we make sure that we reassure operators and trade associations about what a service is. Indeed, there is a question about what a harbour is. The good thing is that we have a definition of a harbour, in the Harbours Act 1964 and the Harbours Act (Northern Ireland) 1970. That is what a harbour is, so I will put that one to bed.

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[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

I just want to comment on the Minister’s last statement, which was very helpful. I think she needs to recognise that the maritime industry has probably got very good PR, but some of what goes on on the ships is highly dubious. I have been honorary president of the United Kingdom Maritime Pilots’ Association for about 25 years—heaven knows why so long, it is very nice of them—and I hear stories about what pilots find when they get on the ships. It is not just that the pilot ladder might break, which sadly does happen occasionally, but that there is a language problem within the ships, or that the master sometimes cannot control the crew and that they will do anything to save tuppence ha’penny. So, I appreciate what she is saying, and in a normal business, she is probably right, but in this sector, it may not be the ferry or the short-haul freight services, but we have to recognise that every penny seems to count and usually it is very bad for some of the crew.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Of course, the noble Lord has much more experience aboard such vessels than me, and I will take his word about some of the conditions on ships. Indeed, we heard during Covid how what happened on ships was very distressing for some people and extremely disappointing. I take all of that on board but I go back to: I cannot fix the entire world today but what I can fix is what is before the Committee in terms of the scope of this Bill.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, mentioned specific types of services, such as coasters—which apparently take English clay around the coast, et cetera—and cruise ships. This is why it is so important to do this based on the service and its frequency rather than what it is actually providing. Coasters might be caught but if they are doing only domestic work they will be caught anyway because they are in UK waters and they are caught if it is port to port within the UK, but if they are doing a run frequently—say three times a week across to France—they will be caught, and I do not see why they should not be. I have no problem with that. Let us catch them. The people working on such vessels most likely have close ties to the UK and those vessels clearly have close ties to the UK because they dock here so frequently, so it does not matter where the ship is flagged or where the employment contract is. It is the fact that it spends a lot of its time in UK waters and enters UK ports on a very frequent basis. This frequency is important.

I note that two noble Lords have tabled amendments to go down to 52 occasions from 120. We looked at this very carefully during the consultation. My current view—and of course we are going to go away and consider this—is that 52 would catch too many vessels that we did not intend to catch and would be overreach in terms of the current settlement with the international shipping community. Again, we might be entering the sort of territory where the unintended consequences would be quite significant. I go back to the fact that this is a narrow Bill, it has a narrow scope, it does a very specific thing, and I would like it to do that specific thing on services which dock here 120 times a year.

Amendments 7 and 8 refer to this issue of “a harbour”, “the harbour” or “harbours”. We have established what “a harbour” is—so that is done—and we are very clear that the service is to a particular harbour. It is not to “a harbour” within the UK because Calais-Dover is not the same as a service running from Calais to any other harbour. The route is specified. It is the same route, not using the same ships, high frequency to a specific harbour. We think that is quite clear.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, asked for a definition of “close ties”. I do not think I will ever be able to get to that but we have been able to define what a “service” is. Those services have close ties. It is descriptive language to define what these services are, but it is merely that. It is not something that will be legally defined and taken forward.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

Do I understand, then, that the Government are unable or unwilling to define “close ties”?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are very willing to define what these services are and, by implication, those have close ties to the UK. I can probably come up with lots of other clever descriptors to define these sorts of services. A large container ship stopping at the UK once a month does not have close ties to the UK; it is an international container ship, shipping around wheat or whatever it might be shipping. We can think of some other language, but once we have nailed what the service is, where it goes, how frequently it goes and which ships it utilises, then we have defined it. That is it, we are done. That is the definition that works legally because it has hard boundaries and can be fairly well defined, I think.

I absolutely appreciate that Amendment 27 is a probing amendment. We intend to provide guidance to harbour authorities, and that guidance will be consulted on. We can define what the service is but we need to help harbour authorities to fully understand those definitions. We will consult with the industry to make sure that there is absolute clarity. I would not say that the guidance should be put on a statutory footing; that is not entirely necessary in this particular case.

I turn finally to Amendment 37. I have of course seen the DPRRC report. It was published only a few days ago so I beg your Lordships’ leave just to say that, at this stage, we are considering what is in it. We are taking it very seriously; I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, that we take all DPRRC reports very seriously. We will publish our response to it before Report so noble Lords will have the opportunity to peruse that. I have no doubt that we will be able to have further conversations about that.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

Will the Minister be answering on Amendment 36?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I absolutely shall cover Amendment 36. My apologies, I slightly went off-beam so I thought I had already covered it.

Regarding Amendment 36, the clause as drafted does not allow a Government to amend or reduce the overall extent of services in scope of the Bill. It provides only that regulations may make different provisions for different cases, including for different descriptions of service to which the Bill applies or non-qualifying seafarers. This power cannot be used to amend the Bill and is not intended to be used to alter the scope of the Bill. I slightly thought that I would need to come back to this particular issue to make sure that noble Lords are in agreement as to what we are trying to achieve here. I will give that further consideration.

[Baroness Scott of Needham Market (LD)]

I am grateful to noble Lords for their comments and to the Minister for hers. This set of amendments really comes down to the practicalities of statutory harbour authorities trying to manage this legislation, which, we have to recognise, is taking them into a completely new area of endeavour. They are comfortable with environmental and shipping things but we need to remember that this is new. Uncertainty at this stage about fundamentals, such as ships and services and what close ties are, is quite concerning. I hope that the Minister will ensure as a matter of urgency that the conversations that ought to take place with the harbour authorities will take place fairly soon so that we can clear up some of these issues and put them in a position where they feel a little more comfortable with what they are being asked to do.

With that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

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[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I will speak on the two amendments in my name in this group, but I commend the other amendments to the Minister’s study, because it is important to achieve clarity on some of these issues.

On Amendment 25, my original involvement with these sorts of issues was in an analogous industry—transport—where I was a shop steward and subsequently an industrial relations manager. In the crew situation, issues with roster patterns and pensions are every bit as important as wages. The way that rosters are handled in particular can have a serious impact on remuneration and a massive impact on quality of life. It is important that there is a proper impact report on these issues, ideally within 90 days.

This leads on to Amendment 26, because this and other issues would be much enhanced if we could develop a proper relationship with the trade unions. The importance of this from the point of view of the trade union movement is exemplified by an appeal—for want of a better term—to the International Labour Organization from the general secretary of Nautilus; the general secretary of the RMT, Mick Lynch; the general secretary of the TUC, Frances O’Grady; the acting general secretary of the European Transport Workers’ Federation; the general secretary of the International Transport Workers’ Federation; and the general secretary of the International Trade Union Confederation. I read those out to emphasise that this is a heavy coalition of the trade union movement. Their appeal is set out in a document that I hope the Minister has seen, which centres on what happened at P&O. It helps one to understand how broad detailing and managing the employment conditions of crew is and how important it is to get a hold of this to make sure that crews are properly looked after, both in their remuneration and conditions of work. I therefore commend Amendment 26 to the Minister.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, this third group of amendments is broadly concerned with the relationship of this Bill to the domestic national minimum wage. The noble Lord, Lord Hendy, has already decided that Amendment 3 is not necessary; I agree with him so, if noble Lords agree, I shall just move on.

Amendment 13, also in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, relates to the calculation of the national minimum wage equivalence and deductions. We have been clear that this will be covered by regulation and is not for the Bill. This also allows us a little more flexibility decades hence, should changes need to be made. Nevertheless, Section 2(5)(c) of the National Minimum Wage Act 1998 does not prohibit deductions from pay of costs for providing seafarers’ accommodation, food or water, but simply provides for regulations on the matter. We will very much be matching up.

Regulations under the Bill will need to be consistent with the provisions within the Maritime Labour Convention, or MLC, whereby requiring seafarers to meet the cost of food and water is expressly forbidden. We therefore do not need to amend the Bill to account for this. Perhaps the noble Lord might remind the RMT about that, if it feels that seafarers out there are being charged for those things. That is clearly and expressly forbidden.

Regarding deductions for accommodation, under the National Minimum Wage Regulations 2015, employers on domestic services are permitted to apply a reduction of up to £8.70 per day in respect of the provision of living accommodation, without that affecting the assessment of the worker’s pay for national minimum wage purposes. The MLC does not make express provision for reduction for accommodation, and shipping industry practice is not to charge seafarers for accommodation. It is not our intention that operators should be encouraged to make such reductions for accommodation to reduce their overall wage fee, so we will be considering this in the regulations in due course.

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[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I have a couple of amendments in this group. The first is Amendment 12, which would create a minimum fine of £1 million. Whether that is the right figure, I am not sure, but the real concern is about the size of the owners; I believe that P&O’s owners have made $721 million in the past six months. There is a real risk that, if businesses of this size take an almost doctrinal opposition to the measure—the P&O debacle showed such a doctrinal opposition to reasonable conditions on board ships—a fine that is not substantial becomes just a cost of business. That would be regrettable; I am sure that it is not the Government’s intention but I would value some feedback from the Minister. How does one assure oneself that the fines are sufficiently large to impinge on the decision-making of these companies? There is a concern that good companies do the right thing anyway. The trouble is that we have a very real example in the recent past of one of these companies not doing the right thing; that is what provoked this legislation.

The second area concerns naming the inspector or inspectors. I tabled my amendment here to draw out how the world will know that this is happening. Organisations that have either a principal inspector or someone like that as a named individual are so much clearer as to who will be held to account for appropriate levels of activity. As a minimum, I hope that the Minister will be able to give me a feel for how quickly inspectors will be appointed and how many of them there will be, as well as assure us that there is adequate inspection capability. We know that this whole issue of minimum wage enforcement is pretty difficult in a land situation; at sea, it will be much more difficult to get the details to know whether an offence or the wrong charge has been committed.

With that, I come to the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, regarding the Secretary of State having the authority to determine the tariff, which will really be a fine. I think that harbour authorities are about harbours. I can see why they perhaps must be drawn in at one level but when it comes to becoming a policeman, in essence, that is what the state should be doing. I agree with the general thrust that this should be the Secretary of State’s responsibility.

Finally, I hope that the Government will give careful consideration to the amendments addressing the DPRRC’s concerns.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, this fourth and final group of amendments is concerned broadly with incentives, enforcement and compliance. There is a wide range of amendments herein. It has been helpful to have this discussion today.

I will start with Amendment 4, with which the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, seeks to make requesting a national minimum wage equivalent declaration a duty rather than a power that can be used with some discretion. The payment of national minimum wage equivalent would be a condition of port entry and so should be a matter for the harbour authority to decide. Furthermore, by making this a “may” rather than a “must”, we are allowing for flexibility in circumstances where there might be overlapping harbour authorities, for example where a vessel transits through one harbour authority’s area of jurisdiction to call at a port within another harbour authority area of jurisdiction. There may be other circumstances that noble Lords can think of where it is not necessary that this declaration is shared every single time. It should be noted that the Bill provides the Secretary of State with the power to direct harbour authorities to request a declaration, so there are necessary safeguards against harbour authorities not discharging this function properly.

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[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

The noble Baroness promised to write letters. Will it be a common letter to all of us?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Yes. I tend to do one letter addressed to all noble Lords present. A copy will be placed in the Library. It will be lengthy, but it will be set out by topic and cover, with as much detail as I can, things that I have not been able to cover today and any additional information that would be helpful to noble Lords.

[Lord Hendy (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in the debate, and to the noble Baroness for her explanation and response to the points raised in this group of amendments. I am very grateful in particular that she will look again at the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s recommendations. I should have said earlier that I am a member of that committee.

I wonder whether, having heard the almost unanimous view expressed this afternoon about the effective delegation of authority to harbour authorities, the Government would be prepared to look at that a little further. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Stockton to Darlington Railway Anniversary

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 11th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and refer to my railway interests as declared in the register.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, railways are a product of Britain’s rich history of engineering innovation and the 200-year anniversary is a nationally important moment to mark and to celebrate. The DfT will work with DCMS, other government departments and the whole industry to make this event very special for workers and passengers.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome that splendid Answer. What response will the Government give to the submission from Sir Peter Hendy, on behalf of industry, local and national museums, the supply chain, Heritage Railway and education, for government funds to ensure that there will be a memorable series of events in 2025, including the recreation of the opening day journey of Locomotion No. 1 and the creation of a walking and cycling route along the 26 miles of the original line as a permanent legacy?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for highlighting some of the tremendous things that we can achieve to celebrate this 200-year anniversary. I am also aware that Sir Peter Hendy is out there with his begging bowl and working his magic. I am sure he is doing exactly what we want him to do, which is bringing together all the interested parties to work with government. This is a huge opportunity to not only celebrate the heritage of our railway network but promote the wider, modern system across the country.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, if we are to celebrate the 200th anniversary properly, do we not need ticket offices up and down the country? Although only 12% of tickets may be sold there at the moment, nevertheless, is my noble friend not aware that a ticket office does far more than sell tickets? They give advice, not least to parents who are going on holiday or with children, and are of course very important to the tourism industry.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend has sort of answered the question for me. I completely agree that railway staff do far more than sell just tickets, which is why in some circumstances they need to be out and about helping people where they need the help, rather than sitting in a glass box. My noble friend is right that one in eight tickets are currently sold by a ticket office. We know that passenger needs have changed and most people nowadays use the digital system, but we recognise that, in some areas, people want the option to buy a ticket at a ticket office. No final decisions have been taken. We are listening, but we must recognise that passenger needs have changed.

[Lord Wrigglesworth (LD)]

My Lords, having been born in Stockton—a little after 1825—and like my noble friend Lord Rodgers having represented Stockton in the other place for quite a number of years, I have a keen interest, as he has, in the success of these celebrations. I am therefore delighted to hear what the Minister has to say about the support that is being given to all the organisations already involved in preparing for them. However, would not the best and most appropriate way to recognise the wonderful achievements of railways since 1825 be to support the proposals of Northern Powerhouse Rail to upgrade and massively improve connections between the east and the west of the country and thereby achieve the levelling up and economic growth that the Government seek to achieve?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord will have seen the recent comments from the Prime Minister about Northern Powerhouse Rail. The Department for Transport has taken those comments very seriously indeed and is now doing an enormous amount of work.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

As we celebrate our heritage railways and the tremendous achievements of British engineering across the world, does the Minister also acknowledge the importance of the heritage railway sector? There are more than 100 heritage railways in the country and 400 stations, attracting millions of visitors each year. Can I be assured that the Government recognise the importance of this sector to the local economies in which the railways operate and the special needs of the sector, not least in relation to the supply of coal? I should declare an interest as honorary president of the Telford Steam Railway.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for reminding us of the coal issue. We will have it at the top of our minds because it is absolutely critical. Heritage railways are a key part of local tourism. They attract people not only locally but internationally. We absolutely recognise the importance of the heritage rail sector; alongside DCMS, DfT works closely to make sure that it is properly promoted.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, the National Railway Museum in York was founded in the year we celebrated the 150th anniversary of the Stockton to Darlington railway. Since 2008, it has included the excellent Locomotion museum at Shildon, which formed a key part of County Durham’s bid to be the UK City of Culture for 2025. As the Government consider the recommendations from Sir Peter Hendy and others, will my noble friend ensure that this museum is supported to play its full role in the celebrations of the 200th anniversary of this great gift to the world from the north-east of England?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his question. I pay tribute to his outstanding service as DCMS Minister—he therefore knows an awful lot about the topic of heritage rail. He is right that we are not going to have a full celebration without making sure that all of our railway museums are fully engaged in the process. I completely agree with him that we absolutely need to ensure that railway museums across the country, including the fantastic National Railway Museum in York, are involved in the celebrations.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I am afraid that I agree with the Minister—it is a bad habit these days. That day in 1825 was an historic one. It gave the United Kingdom first-mover advantage in this extremely important industry. It is one of the most important dates in the whole development of the Industrial Revolution, from which we as a society still benefit. I am delighted that the Minister supports the celebration of it. Will she allow in her answer that that support may involve some financial support?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will allow that it may involve some financial support.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I hope I can persuade the Minister to go further than that gentle reply. It appears that the Government funded the Unboxed festival—something visited by only around 250,000 people and designated a “festival of Brexit” by Jacob Rees-Mogg—to the tune of £126 million. I think that the festival we are talking about today will be a lot more popular and resonate a great deal more with the public. So can the Minister give us a clearer indication of the size of the Government’s intended financial support?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Unfortunately, I am unable to give a clearer indication of the size of any government financial support, principally because the plans are still in development. We know that Sir Peter Hendy is working some up, but of course there will be other plans coming through from DCMS and DfT. As those plans come together, of course the Government will consider financial support.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

The Minister has articulated very clearly how important the whole heritage scene is, particularly in the railway endeavour. Can I ask her—in her hat as Transport Minister—who is responsible for heritage and historic ships, which are crucially important for our coastal communities?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The interesting thing is that heritage railways actually fall under DCMS. The noble Lord asked me about heritage ships. I am afraid I do not know, so I will write.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as chairman of Transport for the North. In working on transport infrastructure and investment, would my noble friend care to take us to 2025, when we will see the completion of the £100 million currently being invested in Darlington railway station. Would she like to pay tribute at this point to Ben Houchen, who managed to bring this project forward and is seeing a significant investment in Darlington railway station now?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I completely agree with my noble friend that this Government have been reopening abandoned routes, electrifying lines, investing in high-tech, refurbishing stations and building new tracks and trains, such as the Elizabeth line. That is what we intend to continue to do.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, would the Minister like to celebrate 2025 by telling us that we will have Royal Assent for the Great British railway legislation that we are still waiting for? It started as the Williams plan. It then became the Williams/Shapps plan, and presumably now it is going to be the Williams/Trevelyan plan. Might it ever be the Williams/Vere plan if we wait long enough?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I do not know—perhaps in my dreams. The Secretary of State is clear that the Government’s commitment to modernising rail and transforming the industry remains. We will of course legislate when parliamentary time allows.

Motor Fuel (Composition and Content) (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2022

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 11th October 2022 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Motor Fuel (Composition and Content) (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2022.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, these regulations relate to the introduction of E10 petrol in Northern Ireland. Regulations relating to the introduction of E10 petrol in Great Britain were considered and agreed to by your Lordships’ House in 2021, and I should note that this introduction has been successful, with no significant concerns raised.

E10 petrol contains up to 10% of renewable ethanol, double the amount blended into E5 petrol. Increasing the renewable ethanol content in standard grade petrol across the UK can reduce annual carbon dioxide emissions by 750,000 tonnes a year, helping us to meet our ambitious climate targets. The regulations’ purpose is to introduce E10 as standard petrol in Northern Ireland, while ensuring that the current E5 grade remains available for those who need it. This will bring petrol grades in Northern Ireland in line with those in Great Britain, where E10 was introduced in September 2021. We have completed the notification procedures required under the Northern Ireland protocol, meaning that an introduction in Northern Ireland is now possible.

E10 allows us to cut carbon emissions from cars, motorbikes and other petrol-powered equipment in use on our roads today. This is done by simply increasing the amount of renewable fuel blended into standard petrol. It is one of very few measures available to us which has an immediate impact. E10 is a proven fuel that has been successfully introduced in Great Britain and many nations around the world to deliver carbon savings. Following the introduction of E10 in Great Britain last year, these regulations ensure that consumers are provided with a consistent petrol grade across the UK. It is worth noting that the Republic of Ireland intends to introduce E10 in January 2023.

The UK has a valuable bioethanol industry, which has already benefited from the increased demand created by the introduction of E10 in Great Britain. Following our policy announcement to introduce E10 across the UK, one large facility operator announced that it would recommence production. The domestic bioethanol industry supports high-skilled jobs and improves our energy independence, delivering on a range of government priorities such as growth and energy security.

These production facilities also play an important role in their local economy, employing hundreds of skilled workers directly and supporting thousands of jobs in the wider community. That community includes the agricultural sector, with locally grown, low-grade feed wheat used to produce ethanol. Furthermore, valuable co-products of bioethanol, such as high-protein animal feed and stored carbon dioxide used by the food industry, reduce our reliance on imports, thus increasing our domestic resilience. It is vital to support these industries as we grow our economy and progress towards net zero by 2050.

Introducing E10 is part of a wider set of measures to encourage renewable fuels. Overall, renewable fuel blending is incentivised through the renewable transport fuel obligation, or RTFO, obligating larger fuel suppliers to supply renewable fuels. However, the RTFO does not prescribe how to meet low-carbon fuel supply targets, nor does it require specific fuel blends; it is market driven. It is therefore necessary to introduce the obligation to supply specific fuel blends to remove market barriers. This has been proven to be successful by the introduction of first E5 and then E10 petrol in the UK, as well as B7 diesel.

We have opted for introduction in Northern Ireland in November, as fuel suppliers and retailers have made it clear that an introduction at the same time as or shortly after the change from summer to winter fuel specification is the most efficient way to introduce E10 into the fuel system.

Over 95% of petrol-powered vehicles on the road are compatible with E10 petrol, and this figure is increasing all the time. All new cars manufactured since 2011 are compatible with E10 petrol, and most cars and motorcycles manufactured since the late 1990s are also approved by manufacturers to use E10. However, some older vehicles are not cleared to use E10. That is why this instrument includes provisions to keep the current E5 petrol, which contains up to 5% ethanol, available in high-octane “super” grade.

The same set of derogations and exceptions that apply to the supply of E5 and E10 in Great Britain in case of supply issues or infrastructure constraints will apply in Northern Ireland as well. This means that very small filling stations will be exempt from having to sell E10. Additionally, if supplying petrol with the required minimum ethanol content is not feasible for short periods of time, say due to factors such as technical or supply issues, the Secretary of State for Transport can grant refineries or blending facilities temporary derogations to ensure that fuel supply is not interrupted.

We have launched a comprehensive communications campaign involving local radio, roadside posters, social media and information at forecourts. This informs motorists in Northern Ireland of the changes that will be made to petrol this autumn—subject, of course, to the approval of this instrument—and directs vehicle owners to GOV.UK, where there is an online compatibility checker so that people can see whether their car is compatible.

In proposing this statutory instrument, my department has carefully considered a balance of interests, as we did when we introduced E10 petrol in Great Britain. I beg to move.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her excellent introduction. Obviously, we welcome this statutory instrument. However, I want to use this opportunity to register my concern at the continued lack of an Executive in Northern Ireland. That is an issue that goes well beyond this. The lack of the Executive serves the people of Northern Ireland very badly indeed, condemning them to the slow lane on so many important issues. There is an example in this SI of how they are disadvantaged.

Paragraph 12.6 of the Explanatory Memorandum makes clear that the “added complexity” of supplying 95 octane E5 grade fuel to Northern Ireland while the rest of the UK has moved on to E10 grade has, not surprisingly, meant additional costs to producers. It goes on to make it clear that producers have had to provide

“separate production processes and storage.”

Paragraph 12.3 says that the costs of this have

“already been passed on to motorists in Northern Ireland”,

even though they have not been enjoying the advantages of it. They are paying the price without getting the benefits. Happily, however, this SI brings Northern Ireland in line with the rest of the UK. Presumably the SI includes any useful lessons learned from the Great Britain implementation. Maybe the Minister could tell us whether any specific issues have been incorporated as a result of this.

I have a few questions. The Minister has answered the first one; I was going to refer to the tight timescale. I see that the Government have anticipated that and have launched their information and awareness-raising campaign. There are older vehicles that are incompatible, of course, and there will continue to be supplies of the old grade of fuel for this reason. Classic cars might be the main reason for that, but petrol is not used just for cars. Indeed, the SI refers to its use for equipment. I declare an interest as the owner of what might politely be described as a classic petrol lawnmower. Does the public information campaign cover equipment in general—not just lawnmowers but other equipment—and not just cars? Putting the wrong petrol in can be quite disastrous.

These regulations impose requirements on petrol filling stations to supply certain types of fuel. They impose additional responsibilities on those filling stations, so I use this opportunity to ask the Minister whether the Government will give urgent consideration to requiring them also to provide electric vehicle charging points. They are beginning to do so on certain rare occasions in Great Britain. The faster this happens, the greater we can all reap the environmental advantages of electric vehicles. EVs now encompass 16% of the new car market. Petrol stations are losing their market relatively fast and need to adapt. I think an imposition—with a timescale, of course—would be very useful in ensuring that we make the transition as soon as possible.

Paragraph 7.12 refers to fuel terminals still

“unable to blend … ethanol into their petrol”

and gives them at least two years’ exemption. I am concerned that these still exist. We have known for a long time that this change was coming, so I thought providers would have adapted by now. Can the Minister tell us what percentage of terminals this applies to? Is it just one or two? I notice that apparently there are none identified in Northern Ireland. Are we talking about a big section of the market in the UK, or just one or two outliers?

Finally, the documentation states that most petrol sold in Northern Ireland—which itself represents 3.5% of the total UK market—comes from suppliers who also supply the rest of the UK. I assume that some of the petrol sold in Northern Ireland comes over the border from the Republic, and I would be interested to know what percentage. Are the rules and regulations that now apply in the Republic identical to those being imposed on Northern Ireland, or is there some variation at some point? Obviously, this would have implications in terms of the protocol as well as a practical implication for motorists. Having put forward those questions, I am very pleased to see this measure before us.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing this SI, which of course we will support. However, having done a little research on this issue, I have ended up with a few questions. First, I think she said that the situation in Northern Ireland and mainland UK will be precisely the same after 1 November. It seems to me that we have E10 and E5, and 97 and 95. As I understand it, in Northern Ireland all the E5 will be 97 and all the E10 will be 95. I should know this from when I fill up my car, but is that the situation in the UK today?

The second area I am interested in, from doing research on that glorious but occasionally seductively dangerous Google, is that there have been questions about whether there is a fuel consumption penalty. Indeed, looking it up on GOV.UK, there is an acknowledgement that there is. The government website suggests that it is 1% or 2%; some motoring magazines have suggested it is rather higher. It would not require much of an increase in overall fuel consumption to arguably negate the advantages of ethanol in the fuel.

If one is unfortunate enough to own one of the 5% of cars which, I think, are not E10 compatible—or perhaps fortunate because they are some of the nicest cars around—it seems that one would have to go to E5 97. My general experience is that 97 is substantially more expensive than E10 95, so it seems to be something of a penalty. Indeed, it might lead some people to use E10 even though they know their vehicle is incompatible. Can the Minister give us some feel for the impact on the engine of consuming incompatible fuel E10 95 instead of the E5 97 that should be used?

GOV.UK explained—it is set out in the EM—that carbon dioxide emissions are reduced by this process. I would be grateful if the Minister could explain the mechanisms by which that is achieved. I have to say that until today I thought petrol was petrol, but when I got on to Google I discovered that it is a gigantic mixture of all sorts of things, and that it varies according to the time of year, and so on. However, it is a hydrocarbon—that is, it takes its energy from releasing hydrogen and carbon from the molecules and creating water and CO₂. That must be as true for ethanol because its chemical formula contains only carbon, hydrogen and oxygen, and, as far as I can tell, all the components of petrol contain carbon, hydrogen and oxygen. I therefore find it difficult to see how the emissions from the vehicle would be different. I can see that there is a difference between fuel which comes from various processing of vegetable matter, which of course captures the CO₂ in its creation and then it goes through a cycle in order to be able to go into a car.

I also discovered with my friend Google that there are worries about some issues such as condensation, and potentially water in fuel as result of that, and about the possibility of degradation of hoses and seals. I wonder to what extent in this introduction those concerns have been taken account of. Otherwise, this is a wonderful idea and I beg to support it.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, for their consideration of the statutory instrument today. I am pleased that they are both able to support it, and they had some very good questions, definitely one of which I had to go and look up after I spoke to the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, this morning; I am very pleased to have an answer but I will leave it to the end, as it is my piece de resistance.

I turn first to the questions asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, although this also applies to some of the issues the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, raised. We have had this fuel in Great Britain now since September 2021 so, if there were any significant concerns, they would have been raised. We are not aware of any. I recognise that some motoring magazines might raise certain questions, but certainly there is no evidence at the moment that there is a significant problem with the introduction. The noble Baroness asked whether we had learned anything from the introduction in Great Britain. One of the key things that we learned was to make sure that we made the introduction when the specification of the fuel changes from summer to winter, so that you get the throughput at the same time as you are trying to flush through the winter grade, in this case, into Northern Ireland. In broad terms, therefore, as regards this introduction, where there are any risks they have been mitigated or we are aware of them, and otherwise I expect a very smooth introduction.

Of course, it is true that this SI was delayed a little by the sad death of Her Majesty the Queen; that is why the communications campaign in Northern Ireland has already started. The noble Baroness spoke about classic cars and indeed classic lawnmowers. We are aware that a number of items of equipment will need to continue to use E5. E5 will remain available, and we will make sure that the communications include guidance for owners to check their manufacturer’s instructions to see whether E5 is suitable. In the vast majority of cases, they can just use E10 and then E5 if it is available. Light aircraft should also be able to continue to use E5. Again, as with the introduction in Great Britain, although we noted it and it was a potential issue, it has not turned out to be the case.

The noble Baroness mentioned EV charging points and I look forward, now that I am back in my role, to speaking with her further about them. I note that we have a new Minister for the Future of Transport, whom I was speaking to only today. I am not saying that the last Minister was slacking at all, but the new Minister has come at it with great new vigour to look through all our plans, to make sure that the funding is going to the places which need it most. We have to fund areas where there is a market failure because there is a significant private sector there that is willing to invest, and we need to make sure that we target those areas—for example, rural areas—where the value-for-money case for the private sector might not be so good, but we absolutely need to get those EV chargers there.

On the percentage of terminals that cannot blend, I can say that bat the moment there are two terminals, which represent less than 5% of total UK petrol production. I am afraid that the point about the percentage of petrol from the Republic is a step too far, but I will write if we have that information. When the Republic introduces E10 in January, that will be consistent across the island of Ireland and within the whole of the UK. There will be consistency for the vast majority of people who are driving compatible cars.

I am afraid that the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, slightly lost me with his first point about Northern Ireland and the mainland and 95 and 97. I will go back to read it again to make sure that we can respond properly and that we have fully understood his concern about the supply of 95, 97, E5 and E10. He is right to note that there is a penalty in terms of miles per gallon when using blended bioethanol. We think it supplies about 1.7% less energy. As we noted when we did the last SIs, it is probably about the same as driving with the air conditioning on or driving with slightly flat tyres. It is not a game-changing decrease in the energy supplied from the petrol. That impact was of course included in the impact assessment on whether it was a good idea to do this at all. The impact on the consumer is fairly marginal.

I turn to the costs for those who have an incompatible vehicle. As the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, mentioned, some classic cars cannot run on E10 and would need to continue to use E5, which will continue to be available. I recognise that it might be a little more expensive than the E10 prices one would hope to see. For those who are unwilling to pay for super grade petrol, there are very good second-hand alternatives on the market. Unfortunately, that will probably be the option that they have to pursue.

As for what happens if you put the wrong grade in, whether E10 or E5, if you do it infrequently it is unlikely to damage your vehicle at all. It is not like when you put diesel in your petrol car or vice versa—then you really are in trouble. Your car will be fine and you can just go back to using the right one. Should you put the wrong one in on occasion, it is not going to be too much of a problem.

Then we come to carbon calculations. When I spoke to the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, this morning, he got me thinking. Of course, he is absolutely right. I had to get my head around this. It is true that when you put bioethanol into petrol, it is combusted and it produces carbon dioxide. However, the point is that the carbon dioxide in that bioethanol is from the short-term carbon cycle. It is from the air and you could probably calculate how many months it has been gone. It is from the air, it goes into feedstuffs, it goes into the vehicle, it comes out of the tailpipe and it returns to the air again. Because it is from the short-term cycle, it is basically a case of taking it out temporarily and putting it back. Using bioethanol is stopping us using that percentage of fossil fuel-based petrol, which comes from stored carbon and is what we do not want to add to the atmosphere. That was a great learning point for me and I am grateful to the noble Lord for raising it. I am going to do a bit more digging to make sure we fully understand that. We know that this is not carbon dioxide free at the tailpipe, but it is a short-term cycle rather than the long-term release of greenhouse gases, which is absolutely what we are trying to reduce in this country. On that basis, I commend the regulations to the Committee.

Motion agreed.

Merchant Shipping (High Speed Craft) Regulations 2022

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 11th October 2022 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Merchant Shipping (High Speed Craft) Regulations 2022.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, these draft regulations relate to the safety of high-speed craft, which are generally all rapid passenger craft but can be cargo craft. They primarily operate domestically in UK waters, although some operate between the UK and the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands and France.

High-speed craft are defined in the International Maritime Organization’s International Code of Safety for High-Speed Craft, SOLAS chapter X. They include some twin-hulled vessels, hydrofoils and air-cushioned vessels such as hovercraft. Examples include the Isle of Wight hovercraft and the Thames Clippers. The definition of a high-speed craft set out in the international documents relates not only to its speed but to its displacement.

These regulations will be made under the safety powers conferred by the Merchant Shipping Act 1995. However, they are subject to the enhanced scrutiny procedures under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, as they will revoke the Merchant Shipping (High Speed Craft) Regulations 2004, which were made under Section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972. That is a long way of explaining why these have an affirmative attachment to them; in and of themselves, they are fairly straightforward and mostly technical. They do not implement any EU obligations.

As I have noted, these high-speed craft regulations replace those from 2004 to implement the most up-to-date requirements of chapter X of the annexe to the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea 1974, known as SOLAS, affecting high-speed craft. Chapter X gives effect to the high-speed craft codes of 1994 and 2000, which contain the requirements applying to high-speed craft. As their name suggests, these codes were first agreed internationally by the International Maritime Organization in 1994 and 2000, but they have been updated, most recently in 2020.

What do these regulations do? They further improve the safety standard for high-speed craft and will enable the UK to enforce these requirements against UK high-speed craft, wherever they may be in the world, and non-UK high-speed craft when in UK waters. This provides a level playing field for industry. These amendments bring UK legislation up to date and in line with internationally agreed requirements.

The updated requirements of SOLAS chapter X, which these regulations seek to implement, introduce both a new requirement for crew drills on entry to and rescue from enclosed spaces, such as machinery spaces, to be conducted every two months, and the recording of those drills alongside other similar recordings currently kept for fire drills and other life-saving appliance drills. These updated requirements came into force internationally on 1 January 2015.

In addition, the regulations implement two further changes to the codes. First, they introduce updates to the requirements for life-saving appliances relating to rescue boats and life rafts. Secondly, they abolish the current monopoly on satellite service provision to ships, opening the market to any provider meeting the required standards. Both these measures came into force internationally on 1 January 2020.

While many other nations adopt such resolutions into their domestic law immediately, our dualist legal system can lead to delays and a backlog has occurred. We intend to avoid such delays in future by using ambulatory references in our regulations. Indeed, we are using ambulatory references in these regulations to put matters agreed at the IMO into our domestic law.

On the UK flag we have about 30 high-speed craft to which these new regulations apply. There are no foreign-flag high-speed craft operating in UK waters. The 1994 code applies to older vessels and the 2000 code to vessels built or substantially modified in or after 2002.

I believe that is about as much as I can say about these regulations. I have one more thought: they also make amendments to the Merchant Shipping (Fees) Regulations 2018. That is purely to enable fees to be charged for the inspection, survey and certification of these high-speed craft by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency. On that note, I beg to move.

[Lord Greenway (CB)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for describing these regulations. As she said, under chapter X of the IMO’s SOLAS convention the high-speed craft codes are regularly updated to incorporate advances in safety technology. That is the reason for these regulations.

The changes the Minister outlined are acceptable to the UK shipping industry, as evidenced by the response to the consultation process. The addition of the ambulatory reference provision to keep UK law aligned with IMO obligations is also welcome. As she said, we hope it will speed up the process as this is just another of those maritime SIs that we should have discussed some time ago.

I understand that many of the changes proposed have already been adopted by UK owners, especially by those trading internationally, because it is in their own interests to do so. I believe that some of them would like to have more advance warning of what new changes are being discussed at the IMO so that they have an idea of what might come through the pipeline.

As the Minister said, these high-speed craft come in many shapes and sizes. I have been slightly mystified as to what the size parameters are, because the only thing I have found relates to cubic metres, and I cannot relate cubic metres to a vessel. She mentioned Thames Clippers, so it obviously comes down to a relatively small craft. An upper limit does not really apply, because these craft do not get to enormous sizes.

Another area for high-speed craft, and one that is rapidly increasing, is in the offshore service sector. I looked this up to see what was going on, and I understand that there is already a High-Speed Offshore Service Craft Code. Presumably, those sorts of craft are not included in these regulations. If the Minister and her advisers could help me with a parameter for these regulations, in relation to the vessels they cover, I would be most grateful.

In the offshore sector there is enormously interesting development going on, with the latest things being all-electric craft that fly on foils. Seen from ahead, you wonder how on earth they manage to go about their business, when the ship is high out of the water and there is just a single foil going down into the water. These are exciting prospects and ones that I hope will lead to great commercial success in future. In the mean- time, I welcome the regulations.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, we are looking at the high-speed craft regulations—the high-speed craft code. I assume—I may be corrected—that the code is de facto in two parts. There is presumably a part of the code which relates to construction—I noticed the reference to stability—and clearly there is a part which relates to operation. That is a classic division in international transport; it happens in aviation, and essentially, the international code for the construction of aeroplanes is obeyed more or less by every country to the same standard, which makes life very straightforward. There is a code about operation but clearly, that tends also to be influenced by the domestic philosophies of the airlines and operators concerned. Is my assumption that the code divides into two accurate?

Secondly, to what vessels or craft does the code apply? I discovered the formula—I cannot remember whether it is in the Explanatory Memorandum, the regulations or on Google, but wherever it is, how I would apply it did not entirely leap to my mind. However, as I understand it, it relates to volume and it then manipulates that volume to create a speed, which defines whether a craft is high-speed. If it goes faster than that, it is a high-speed craft, and if it goes slower than that, it is not. However, it means that the image of what a high-speed craft is is not self-evident. I understand that the “Queen Mary 2”, for instance, can achieve 30 knots—it normally goes around the world at about 20 or 22 knots. That sounds quite fast, but I believe it is not a high-speed craft. Equally, smaller vessels—the Minister mentioned smaller vessels which operate domestically—which clearly do not do 30 knots are categorised as high-speed craft.

My next question is on whether we have any in the UK; the noble Baroness has already told us that we do. If my conceptual division is right, clearly, this code would apply to how they are operated. I presume it applies to how they are manufactured. The question then is: do we manufacture any of these vessels in the UK? My sense from my Google exploration is that we do not, although I may have misread that. Are we comfortable that the philosophy behind the code has been applied in the original construction of these vessels?

Finally, the code is different. It says in paragraph 7.3 of the EM—and in the code, which I have looked at only very superficially:

“The HSC Codes take more of a risk-based approach than many maritime standards, which tend to be more prescriptive.”


Indeed, it is the history of transport that most specifications originate from simply building the particular transport facility, be it a train, a boat or an aeroplane, seeing how many of them crash, and from each crash you learn something new and put that in a regulation. You end up with a large amount of prescriptive things, and if you do it enough, you get pretty close to the optimum. Indeed, the high performance of aviation recently has shown that this approach works—sadly, with the notable exception of the 737 Max; it took two horrific accidents for Boeing to take its responsibilities seriously.

The interesting point is that taking a risk-based approach to safety, as opposed to a learning-based approach that creates the prescriptive codes, requires a different philosophical approach by the safety regulators. If the Minister agrees with my division between these two approaches, can she say whether the people who now enforce that code in the UK are equipped and educated to move from the prescriptive way of going about these things, which in a sense is quite challenging but really straightforward—it passes the prescriptive feature: it has the right number of this and that and will break or not break at this level, and so on—into the more judgmental or risk-based way and to apply the code in that flexible way? Have they exercised that sort of discretion in a way that can give us confidence? The problem with the risk-based approach is that until you get a mature group of regulators, it is possible for people to make poor judgments under such a code.

I have no further questions. We will support this code being incorporated, of course. While I deplore the delays, I will forgive the Minister because we have gone on about that enough.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in today’s short debate, especially the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, for his insight as a relative expert in this area. I will start by trying to help all noble Lords with the definition of a high-speed craft; they may or may not need calculators. A high-speed craft is one

“capable of a maximum speed in metres per second”

equal to or exceeding 3.7 times the one-sixth power of

“the volume of displacement corresponding to the design waterline”

in metres cubed,

“excluding craft the hull of which is supported completely clear above the water surface in non displacement mode by aerodynamic forces generated by ground effect”.

I hope that is helpful.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

I did read that definition, so I am not surprised by it. I really want to know what are typical high-speed crafts and what are not. Am I right that the “Queen Mary 2” is not a high-speed craft but that some smaller craft that do 30 knots are designated as high-speed craft?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will see whether I can get further written clarification of that. My understanding is that a craft knows that it is a high-speed craft, is certified to be such and then falls under these regulations. Clearly, there is a balance between the speed and the displacement. We might come up with a nice little picture of the displacement and the speed, saying whether it is high speed. That might be quite interesting for all noble Lords, as we are unlikely to talk about high-speed craft again any time soon. Let us see how we do.

The other thing I want to cover at the outset is the impact of the delays, as mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. I think the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, said it best; I believe he said that many of these changes are already adopted. During analysis, the UK’s high-speed craft were found to already comply with all the elements of these regulations, which transpose these international safety requirements for high-speed craft from chapter X into domestic law.

There are the two different codes, as noted by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, talked about being drunk at sea and a list of other things. Essentially, everything within those codes comes over to domestic law. I got a little confused at this point, so I will go back to Hansard and check that I have properly covered that issue, which I know was raised by both Front-Benchers.

On the delay in bringing them into domestic law, I hope I have been able to reassure noble Lords that all the UK craft were already doing it. The main benefit of the regulations today is the fact that we will be able to enforce them against foreign and UK craft if they are not. The MCA will certainly do that. The delay for enclosed spaces, et cetera—I am sorry; I cannot read my writing—was seven years; that came into force in 2015. On life-saving appliances and the deregulation of satellite services, there was a two-year delay. But as I say, the requirements were already in place and we are not aware of any incidents relating to vessels that did not put these requirements into place.

The noble Lord, Lord Greenway, asked about high-speed offshore service craft. Indeed, he is absolutely right: there is a completely different set of regulations, which I was going to mention in my opening remarks. I then decided that it would confuse all noble Lords because we would be talking about entirely different vessels which do very important things. I completely appreciate that there is huge innovation going on in that area with electrics and the foils—you only have to look at the America’s Cup vessels to see that they fly. They do not sail anymore; they just fly. It is amazing. But, yes, we are not talking about those vessels, or indeed offshore service craft, today.

I will take the point about advance warning of future changes back to the department to make sure that we have good stakeholder engagement before future changes, either international or domestic, are foisted upon the industry. We want stakeholders to be prepared, and it is obviously really important that we get their feedback as well.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked whether we manufacture in the UK. Yes, we do—we manufacture hovercraft, and we also have a number of high-speed craft in development. I suspect that these might relate to some of the more innovative maritime things coming through, some of which are very exciting. Obviously, those craft will take account of these regulations, as would any vessel imported into this country before it can be certified.

Turning to the issue of a risk-based approach, I understand where the noble Lord is coming from. However, the high-speed craft codes of 1994 and 2000 have always taken a risk-based approach, so there is no change in mindset among the regulators here in putting a risk-based approach into place. Unless I have misunderstood the issue he raised, we believe that the MCA already operates in that way.

I have one last comment on our favourite topic: the maritime backlog. I recognise that this is one more brick in the wall, which is very good. This is one of the 13 outstanding statutory instruments, and I am sure noble Lords will join me again later this year as we debate some more. We are making progress. As I always say, I apologise, but we hope to get everything done by the end of 2023, which is what we committed to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee.

Motion agreed.

Avanti West Coast

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 7th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the Statement is as follows:

“The current west coast partnership franchise agreement is due to expire on 16 October 2022. As with all contract awards, the Government will act in accordance with the Railways Act Section 26(1) franchising policy statement, and a decision has yet to be taken by the Secretary of State. Given the market and the commercially sensitive nature of the outcome, further information cannot be provided at this time.

Like all operators, Avanti has used a degree of rest-day working to operate its timetable. In essence, this means that drivers have been volunteering to work additional shifts over and above their contracted hours. The industry arrangement has been in place for numerous years, to the benefit of the drivers, the operators and, of course, the passengers. Avanti has a live rest-day working agreement that remains in place with the ASLEF union, which represents about 95% of its drivers.

However, on 30 July 2022, Avanti experienced an unprecedented, immediate and near total cessation of drivers volunteering to work passenger trains on their rest days. This left Avanti unable to resource its timetable and, in the immediate term, resulted in significant short-notice cancellations. Avanti has reduced its timetable in response to the withdrawal of rest-day working. Reducing the timetable provided better certainty and reliability for passengers as it reduced the number of short-notice cancellations.

The department continues to work closely with Avanti to monitor performance, while Avanti continues to review demand data and the position regarding train crew availability to inform options to reliably increase services. An increase in services between Manchester and London remains a priority and Avanti will continue to look for opportunities to support passengers and businesses along the route.”

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, listening to the Answer, I am even more puzzled that the Department for Transport has awarded Avanti a £4 million bonus for operational performance, customer satisfaction and acting as a good and efficient operator.

When this issue was last raised, on 4 July, the Minister conceded that Avanti’s management of the west coast main line was terrible. Since then, ticket sales have been suspended, timetables have been cut, and now only 53% of trains are arriving on time. I am sure she can hear the frustration of the travelling public. Can she explain why the Government are not doing something immediately to end this shambles and outrage on one of our country’s major lines?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I absolutely agree that there is considerable passenger outrage, and rightly so, but this is not an issue that can be solved quickly. It is a twofold problem. On the first level, there is a backlog of training due to Covid. Training simply had to stop during that time. To train a train driver takes two years, and rightly so, because it is a safety-critical environment; we need to make sure that our train drivers drive our trains safely. However, that means that there is a backlog in training which will take a while to resolve. With the slightly reduced number of services, that could be coped with. As I said in the Answer, this problem stems from the unprecedented, immediate and near-total cessation of drivers volunteering for rest-day working. Do I think that operators should need to rely on rest-day working? No, I do not. We should run a modern, seven-day railway, and I hope that the unions will agree.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, only last week, funding for Transport for London was made dependent on it continuing to work to introduce driverless trains, so the Government are clearly content to make funding dependent on action. What conditions were imposed on Avanti and other train operators in relation to maintaining frequency of services? Is Avanti in contravention of that agreement? As the Government’s response makes clear, reliance on rest-day working is the norm across all operators. Clearly, this is no longer viable.

The Government are now directly in charge of all this. Let us hope that the new Secretary of State will agree to meet the unions and get involved, because the Government are directly responsible. Can the Minister tell us what initiatives and targets the Government are setting to ensure that all train operators recruit and train more drivers? In particular, what are they doing to increase the percentage of female drivers? Across the rail industry, the number of women train drivers is still far too low. There is absolutely no reason why a woman cannot drive a train.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My goodness, on that last point, I completely agree with the noble Baroness, although I have had a go in a simulator and was not very good at it.

I agree that recruitment of train drivers is essential. The average age of a train driver is 51. The average retirement age of a train driver is 59. We must get some youngsters and a more diverse group of people into driving trains, because that is the future of a modern railway service that operates purely and solely for the benefit of passengers and freight, which we are very much focused on.

Turning to how we hold the train operating companies to account, I am sure that all noble Lords will have read the ERMAs, which are published. In those agreements are the criteria that we set out for the train operating companies to meet various standards in order for them to receive any performance fees. The noble Lord mentioned a performance fee of some £4 million. That relates to a period donkey’s years ago, way before the period that we are talking about. For example, in the period from September 2020 to March 2021, Avanti received no fee at all for customer experience.

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, since I was elected in Penrith in 1983, I calculate I have done the Penrith-London journey, to and fro, at least 2,600 times? Is she aware that I thought British Rail was atrocious, Virgin was a magnificent breath of fresh air and Avanti, I can honestly say, is 10 times worse than British Rail on a bad day? It has cut the trains in half. You cannot book until a few days in advance, and then it is at an exorbitant price with no cheap tickets. When you do book, your seats are double-booked, because bookings are cancelled overnight. Food is often not served. The only thing that works well is disabled assistance, the “cripple buggy” and the people in Penrith who help me out. That works remarkably well. So, now that my right honourable friend the incompetent Mr Grant Shapps has gone, will she ask my right honourable friend Anne-Marie Trevelyan to remove this franchise immediately and give it back to Virgin, which ran a ruddy good railway line?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Well, I am pleased that my noble friend is pleased with the disabled service, which has received a huge amount of investment and insight recently. It is critical that our trains are accessible to everybody, and being able to onboard and offboard a train is a key element to making them accessible. I hear what he says about the service to Penrith, of which he is a frequent user. We all want it to be better, but we have to play on the pitch we have got. In this situation, if there are not enough train drivers to drive the trains, we cannot have the services. We are holding Avanti to account in looking at its plans to recruit more train drivers, and of course we are looking at its performance. No decision has been taken about whether Avanti has a role to play in the future of Britain’s railways. That will be taken by the new Secretary of State. All options remain on the table and evidence is being gathered as we speak.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a regular user of the Avanti service from Holyhead to Euston—or at least I used to be. There is now only one through train a day, leaving Holyhead at about six o’clock in the morning. The reason given, as the Minister said, is the shortage of drivers. It is clearly not possible for Avanti to solve that problem, because it has gone on for month after month, so what are the Government going to do about it?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I absolutely hear the noble Lord’s concerns about north Wales. I understand it has been particularly hit by the reduction in services by Avanti. In looking at where Avanti came from and is going, we should remember that it had the contract for only 16 weeks before Covid turned up. It started with a timetable of four trains an hour. It got up to seven and was heading towards eight, and then we hit this slight buffer. In this situation, we are keen to restore proper services to north Wales. There are also things we need to do at Chester and the Manchester-London route is an absolute priority to make sure that people can travel. We are looking at all of these in collaboration with Avanti but, as I have said, without train drivers willing to drive the trains, as they were previously, we are slightly shackled.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I hear what the Minister says about the lack of train drivers. Clearly, that is a problem. I travel on the same service as the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra; I get on a stop earlier at Carlisle. Can I ask the noble Baroness, when she is talking to the Secretary of State about this contract, to point out that lack of train drivers does not cause lack of catering? Lack of train drivers does not cause passengers to be locked into Oxenholme station because a train has got there so late and nobody was told to leave the doors open, so people have to climb over fences. Lack of train drivers does not mean seats are double-booked. It was absolute chaos on Monday. Lack of drivers does not mean that staff have no information to give passengers, who do not know what on earth is going on and who are lucky if they can find a member of staff. Why is the Glasgow train always late getting into Carlisle? It is not even very far, once you have a train driver. By the time you get to London, delay repay is the norm. Will the Minister take these concerns back? This is not about just train strikes and train drivers.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am as horrified as the noble Baroness is at the stories she recounts about the services that are currently being offered to her part of the north of England. It is unacceptable. We are working very hard, and officials and Ministers speak to Avanti, as they do with all train operating companies, to discuss its performance. We are looking at this. I have heard everything the noble Baroness said and I reassure her that I will take it back to the department.

House adjourned at 7.50 pm.

Seafarers’ Wages Bill [HL]

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the Bill be now read a second time.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, earlier this year, P&O Ferries shamefully sacked almost 800 members of its workforce, without notice and without consultation. At that time, the Transport Secretary responded with a nine-point plan, aiming to prevent companies from benefiting further from such underhand and unacceptable moves. This legislation is part of our response. It is important to stress that this is but one part of the plan, which covers much wider aspects of seafarer welfare that do not require legislation.

This Bill delivers on the Secretary of State’s commitment to deliver on the first point of the nine-point plan: changing the law so that seafarers with close ties to the UK are paid at least an equivalent to the UK national minimum wage while they are in UK waters. Quite simply, it is unacceptable for companies such as P&O Ferries to lay off hard-working employees, with no notice and no consultation, only to replace them with less costly workers. This legislation will remove the incentive for other operators to follow suit and ensure that all seafarers will receive the equivalent of the national minimum wage in UK waters, preventing a race to the bottom that would damage this vital industry.

Under the existing national minimum wage legislation, not all seafarers who regularly call at UK ports are currently entitled to the UK national minimum wage. It cannot be right that seafarers who frequently work in the UK are not entitled to the same remuneration as other workers simply because they work on an international, rather than a domestic, service. In every practical sense, the seafarers who work on routes such as Dover to Calais are working in the UK, and they should not face exploitation by unscrupulous employers who seek to use this gap in the law to avoid paying fair wages.

The purpose of the Bill is to right this wrong. It will do this by making access to UK ports conditional on operators of frequent services providing evidence that the seafarers on board are paid a rate equivalent to the UK national minimum wage for time spent in UK waters. This will bring hundreds of millions of pounds of extra pay to thousands of seafarers over the next 10 years.

It is important to note that this legislation does not amend the National Minimum Wage Act. It instead refers to “national minimum wage equivalence”. I should point out that the Bill has been the subject of a public consultation, where we invited views on both its scope and the proposed compliance process. We have taken enormous care to consider the consultees’ views and have taken these into account in designing the new legislation.

The legislation will apply to services calling at UK ports at least once every 72 hours, on average, throughout the year. This equates to 120 times a year. The operators of such services will be required to provide a declaration to the relevant harbour authority that they are paying their seafarers no less than a rate equivalent to the national minimum wage. This rate will be calculated according to regulations made using powers in the Bill.

This scope definition has been carefully designed to ensure that it includes those seafarers who have close ties to the UK. We listened to those in the industry who told us that inclusions or exclusions based on service type would create market distortion and ambiguity. Fishing and leisure or recreation vessels are therefore the only specific exclusions retained on the face of the Bill. Our analysis shows that this definition captures, for example, the vast majority of ferries on the short straits, without including services such as deep sea container services or cruises. These less frequent services remain out of scope as those seafarers cannot be said to have as close a link to the UK. This definition has been formulated to account for the complexity of categorising vessel and service types, and to ensure that those seafarers with the closest ties to the UK are captured. We will continue to engage with industry throughout the passage of the Bill, and through consultation on the subsequent secondary legislation and guidance.

Ports are our main contact point with these vessels. In order to keep focused on this domestic link, the legislation will make access to ports ultimately conditional on compliance with its requirements. Harbour authorities will be empowered to request declarations from operators within scope that confirm they will pay their seafarers a rate equivalent to the national minimum wage. If they do not comply with the requirement, harbour authorities will be empowered to levy a surcharge against those operators, or they may be directed to do so by the Secretary of State. The purpose of the surcharge is to ensure that not paying the national minimum wage equivalent is not a financially viable option for the operator.

We intend to consult on regulations and guidance on the framework within which the level of the surcharge will be calculated and the exercise of the harbour authorities’ powers in due course. The harbour authority may retain such money as may be raised in this way for the discharge of its functions or for the provision of shore-based seafarer welfare facilities. We are clear that this will not be a profit-making exercise.

On non-payment of a surcharge, the harbour authority will be empowered to deny access to the port, either of its own volition or by direction from the Secretary of State. We intend these powers to provide sufficient deterrent to ensure compliance by operators. We have engaged extensively with the ports industry on this role, and while we accept that this will be an extra administrative burden on ports, we are satisfied that it is proportionate and effective, particularly taking into account the resources and capabilities of the ports and their existing transactional relationship with visiting vessels.

I am clear that this is not an enforcement role for the harbour authority. Beyond accepting declarations, they will not be responsible for checking that operators are complying with the requirement to pay national minimum wage equivalence. This enforcement role will be fulfilled by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, or MCA, which will undertake inspections and investigations. It will also be empowered to prosecute operators who are found to be operating inconsistently with a declaration or who do not comply with investigations. Those found guilty of an offence will be liable to a fine on summary conviction.

As I stated earlier, this Bill is only one part of the Government’s nine-point plan to improve seafarer welfare. We are clear that this legislation will not solve all the issues brought to light by P&O Ferries’ actions, but it is an important step, and it is the right one to take given the parliamentary time available. The Bill is inevitably of limited application as we cannot legislate outside UK jurisdiction and therefore cannot make provision for time spent outside UK waters. This is why we are discussing bilateral minimum wage corridors with other countries to encourage the payment of fair wages on the entire route. As part of the plan, the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy will bring forward a new statutory code on so-called fire and rehire when parliamentary time allows. The Department for Transport is also taking steps to encourage more ships to operate under the UK flag, and to improve the long-term working conditions of seafarers beyond pay protection. So, although this legislation is concerned only with wages, the Government remain focused on the whole gamut of seafarer welfare and taking non-legislative steps to make much-needed improvements. This legislation is vital as part of our efforts to ensure that hard-working seafarers, who play a critical role in our economy, can no longer be mistreated or exploited by unscrupulous employers.

In closing, I also recognise that some noble Lords may have a slightly more nuanced reason for participating in today’s proceedings: a hugely experienced and deeply committed parliamentarian and public servant will be making his valedictory speech. I know that this House, and so many people beyond it, hold my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern in the highest esteem, and we are incredibly grateful for his many years of service to our country. I am looking forward to contributions from noble Lords on the retirement of my noble and learned friend and, of course, to their wise words on the Bill before your Lordships’ House today. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, the Bill is clearly not the star of the show today. We have heard so many wonderfully warm words, and I was touched by so many of them, not only from my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay but from all noble Lords who paid him tribute. But I must at least try to get the House back to focus on the Bill, and that is what I intend to do.

I am very grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions and, as ever, I feel a letter coming on. We will try to get it out as soon as we can. I do not know that it will be before recess, but perhaps by the end of next week. I will try valiantly to answer as many of the questions raised as possible. I know that we will be heading into Committee on the Bill on, I think, 5 September, so it will be upon us before we know it. Thinking about it over the recess might be a very wise idea.

I cannot agree with the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, that the Bill is too narrow. We must balance that with the statement of the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, who said, “Oh, the Government are always reaching for legislation”. That is what we are trying not to do in this case; we are reaching for this legislation because it is necessary and fills a gap, but many of the other things we will be delivering in our nine-point plan do not need legislation, so we will not put them in legislation. Noble Lords know that we are overwhelmed with legislation; do not even get me on to secondary legislation, which we must also make sure is completely fit for purpose so that we do not end up overregulating and having too many debates on things that, frankly, do not need legislating. I am content with the scope of the Bill and the extent to which it applies.

There is always that very interesting balance in maritime between the Government being very focused on domestic priorities, for the protection of domestic workers operating with very close ties to the UK, and what is an extremely international market for maritime but which is governed by international laws, conventions, agreements, all sorts of things that make up the maritime ecosystem. We are very clear that we do not want to be upsetting that ecosystem and we are content that this Bill does not do that. We are also very clear when it comes to, for example, access to ports in an emergency or for the welfare of the people on board, a vessel would never be barred from entering a port in such circumstances. Therefore, I am content that this reaches that appropriate balance between the domestic priorities and the broader maritime framework, which is set mostly internationally.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked why there was no longer a harbours Bill. There was a name change. It is nothing more significant than that. I was expecting something called a “harbours something-or-other”, but there was a name change and, lo and behold, we are calling it something which much better reflects the intention, since our target is the seafarers, not the harbours. We are all after the people, and therefore it was quite right that we changed the name.

I think that I have covered the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Mountevans, as well. I take his point, and he is hugely experienced regarding our international reputation. As we have set out in our nine-point plan, we will be working with international partners. We will not be putting this in the Bill because it is not within our gift to deliver it. That does not mean that we will not work extremely hard; at the moment we are engaging with eight European countries on seafarers protections and welfare more generally, and to explore the creation of the minimum wage equivalent corridors. I do not say that this will necessarily be easy, but there are many like-minded seafaring nations which would want to see certain agreements being reached. Discussions are currently at an early stage, but we are pursuing them as a matter of priority.

A number of noble Lords mentioned the conflict that might exist between ports’ commercial interests and their statutory duties. We are clear that we must be cognizant of that but also, because the Secretary of State has the power to issue directions, it is the case that in the event of any doubt that those two things were not being performed correctly, I am afraid that the MCA and probably the Secretary of State would have things to say. However, I must reiterate that when it comes to the ports, we do not really want them to do very much at all. By the time that we have passed the secondary legislation for the declarations, the declarations will be standard, they will have been consulted on, and we will have discussed them with the various stakeholders, so it will be a very transactional relationship. They have a transactional relationship with visiting vessels already, so it is just one more cog in that particular transactional relationship.

Therefore, the ports will not be performing any sort of enforcement function at all. I note the comments from my noble friend Lord Balfe but, as I said, we are quite clear on what we want the ports to do. I look forward to talking through the secondary legislation when we discuss the process in more detail. If we get the secondary legislation right, if the process is really effective, then the role of ports will be minimised.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, asked about the term “non-qualifying seafarers”. This is going to get a little complicated, because we are trying to capture non-qualifying seafarers; they do not qualify for the national minimum wage and we want to make them qualify for the equivalent, which we are setting up. We want all workers on vessels with close links to the UK to be covered. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, that we are focused on improving the rights of seafarers, both in the UK and by working with international structures.

The noble Lord, Lord Mann, mentioned some quite broad elements around workers’ rights and pay and conditions. The Bill seeks to amend the law in a limited and specific way. I will come back to this again and again in Committee: it is about workers with close ties to the UK, in UK waters. That is our focus in getting the Bill through Parliament. He mentioned a Bermuda judgment on pensions, but he is testing my knowledge so I will have to write on that matter.

I sense that we may have some discussions in Committee on the question of services as well. We considered all sorts of different frequency definitions, various types of vessel and the sorts of services they offer. It all got bogged down very quickly and could have ended up causing significant distortions to the market, as people try to change what their vessel does to fit into a different category. We do not want that; we are after simplicity here. We really are.

We decided on 120 days, which is equivalent to once every 72 hours, because we felt it was the right balance between workers on board having a close tie to the UK—I will come back to that a lot—and capturing as many of the vessels that we want to capture. We have analysed past data, which suggest that a large majority of ferry services would be captured in this scope. DfT statistics suggest that, had the policy been in effect in 2019, approximately 98% of passenger ferry voyages would have been captured and 70% of non-passenger ferry voyages carrying freight would have been in scope. Very few bulk, container and other such services would have fallen in scope—for example, for 1999, 7% of fully cellular container voyages to and from UK ports and a tiny proportion of the dry/liquid bulk services would have been in scope. I think we have the right balance.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, mentioned cruises. If it is a UK cruise that stays in UK waters, it will be paying the minimum wage, because that is already in the regulations. However, if the cruise ship is going far away, it will not be covered, because it does not have close ties to the UK, is not back and forth or visiting our shores very frequently. That is the distinction we have made.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

I am very grateful for the noble Baroness’s comments. She spoke about ships that do not have close ties to the UK, but we are talking about workers on those ships and whether they have close ties. It would be helpful if she could define that now or in writing.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Is it not really about the service? We cannot legislate for UK workers working in international waters or in any country in the world. That is what we must balance here. If we wanted to include cruises, we would have to include every vessel that pops into UK waters. The administration of that would blow up; it is not going to work. We will debate this in Committee, but I think we have reached the right balance. I do not know that noble Lords will be able to convince me that we have not, but I am willing to let them try.

I turn briefly to enforcement, which is a really important point. This is where the MCA will step up to enforce the system as a whole. We expect the cost of enforcement to be about £359,000 over 10 years. That is a relatively small amount in the context of the work of the MCA, because it can be done alongside its many other inspections.

The framework around the surcharges will be set out in secondary legislation. The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, was concerned about the ports setting the surcharge, but they will not. If a port for whatever reason had a ship approach and thought, “That’s a friendly ship; we’re not going to charge it a surcharge”, the Secretary of State could direct it to charge the surcharge. That gets round the issue where you might have a port and a ferry service operated by the same operator. The Secretary of State’s beady eye will be there to make sure that it does as it should.

I will come to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, about minimum fines. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, raised a point about a port being an enforcement authority; it definitely is not going to be. The noble Baroness, Lady Scott, asked about criminal charges. It will be for the ship operator, which is standard for maritime, to suffer any penalties relating to the Bill.

I am going to finish off with my favourite topic—secondary legislation. I think someone said “good”; I am not sure who it was. I am really offended, but I am going to talk about secondary legislation just so we can suffer a little longer. This is important because I have noted that Grand Committee is on 15 September, and we will not have full draft regulations by then. I am sort of thinking that this is probably not the worst idea in the world. We will have detailed policy notes, but as we go through Committee and debate the sorts of things we are proposing to put into secondary legislation, I think having detailed policy notes will be sufficient to aid our thinking, and issues may certainly come up in the discussion that we may want to reflect in the regulations or perhaps draft the regulations in a slightly different way.

I believe I have covered some of the questions asked by noble Lords today.

Bill read a second time and committed to a Grand Committee.

Merchant Shipping (Additional Safety Measures for Bulk Carriers) Regulations 2022

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 21 June be approved.

Considered in Grand Committee on 19 July.

Motion agreed.

Airports and Airlines: Staff

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 19th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that (1) airports, and (2) airlines, in the United Kingdom have enough staff to ensure that British holidaymakers do not have their holidays cancelled or delayed this summer.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, on 30 June, the Secretary of State announced 22 measures which the Government are currently taking to support the aviation industry to help recruit and train staff, ensure the delivery of a realistic summer schedule, minimise disruption and support passengers when delays and cancellations are unavoidable. The Government recognise that these issues are primarily for industry to solve, but this series of targeted measures will support its efforts.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I wonder if the Minister saw last night’s “Panorama”—not that I instigated its being shown before my Question or its being about this issue. A list of things is responsible: Covid, staff shortages, security, air traffic control, baggage handling, check-in staff, passport control, even Brexit. A lot of people in this country are planning to have holidays but are worried about the insecurity and uncertainty. Just on my way in, I was talking to a Member of this House who said that he and his family want to go on holiday, “if we can get away”. Surely we can do better than that.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I did not manage to see the “Panorama” programme last night, but I saw some highlights today and I recognise some of the issues that the noble Lord pointed out. As I said in my Answer, this is for the private sector to resolve. However, we have been working with the aviation industry on this for months to make sure that we are giving it all the support we can, so that it can offer consumers the sorts of timetable that can actually be delivered.

[Lord Londesborough (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the Heathrow monopoly is in the hands of owners who put the interests of shareholders far ahead of customers? Dividends of £4 billion have been drawn out in the last 10 years and the airport has been saddled with £16 billion of debt. Now it wants the regulator to approve hikes in passenger charges of well over 50%, in the midst of the most abject and abysmal service.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I reject the noble Lord’s comment that London Heathrow has a monopoly. There are eight slot-restricted airports in England and many other airports beyond that. I simply say to airlines: if you do not like Heathrow, go elsewhere.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that airline staff flying into the EU now need their travel documents to be stamped? I am sure she is, but is she aware that staff are reporting a potential crunch coming down the track in August, as their documents will be full of stamps and will therefore have to be renewed, with consequent delays? What are the Government doing to expedite that?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for raising that. I am not aware of that issue, so will take it back to the department.

[Lord Geddes (Con)]

Apropos the previous question, does my noble friend agree, as was my recent experience, that flying from and to Bournemouth international airport is perfectly wonderful? It works like clockwork.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I have heard my noble friend wax lyrical about the wonders of Bournemouth Airport, and there are many other airports like that around the country. I encourage everybody to look at those smaller airports; you often might get a better service.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness often says, as she said today, that this is for the private sector. Heathrow is ultimately a monopoly licensed by the state. There is not lots of competition out there; everything that is capable of managing significant international traffic is full. The Government are responsible for Heathrow’s performance. They are responsible for the common good; that is what Governments are for. They seem to agree with me: as of 12 July, the strategic risk group has met five times, the summer resilience group four times, and the ministerial border group four times. According to its chief executive, Heathrow is improving. This shows that the Government have intervened and had a benign effect. I congratulate them, but why did they not intervene sooner and save passengers from the misery they have suffered?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am incredibly happy to accept the congratulations of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. We have worked with the aviation sector incredibly hard to try to minimise the disruption that happened at half-term as we go into the summer period. He asked why it took so long, but we have been working on this for months. For example, we changed the law so that training could start before certain checks had been completed. We laid that statutory instrument on 29 April. Statutory instruments do not just appear in order to be laid; they are the subject of weeks of work. We have been working very closely with the sector, and the Civil Service has been working extremely closely and very hard on all these measures. As he said, they are having an impact.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, while there are pandemic-related staff shortages across the whole of Europe, is a large part of the problem in the UK not Brexit-related, as evidenced by the piece in the Times last week by the head of Menzies Aviation? He added his voice to that of the head of easyJet, which has had to turn down thousands of job applications from EU workers. The Minister says she is not responsible for the free market, but the Government are responsible for Brexit.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

A cursory glance at the aviation industry around the world will show that this problem is not specific to the UK. The US has had significant problems, as have Ireland, the Netherlands and France. The last time I looked, those three countries were members of the European Union.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

My noble friend is aware of the delays as a result of the need to look at security clearance for staff. This is particularly so with large numbers of new staff being required to fill these vacancies. That security clearance check is important, but those delays could be speeded up immensely.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I reassure my noble friend that the Government cracked this problem many months ago and there are no delays within UK security vetting. Accreditation checks are currently taking five days; counterterrorism checks are taking 10 days. These are much better than they were pre pandemic.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I am lucky enough to be having a holiday in mid-Switzerland in a couple of weeks. In under a day, I can go from Switzerland back to my home in west Cornwall by train. Does the Minister agree with me that part of the answer to this might be to look for less carbon-intensive forms of transport?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As the noble Lord may know, the Government published our Jet Zero Strategy today. We are absolutely focused on decarbonising the aviation sector, but we recognise that high-speed rail is also very attractive.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my entry in the register of interests. Would it not help passengers to fly if the Government could manage to sort out the renewal of passports? Also, would it not help if the Government were able to get the airports and airlines to work together, instead of criticising each other, given that check-in and baggage handling are handled by the airlines but the remainder of the journey through the airport is the responsibility of the airport itself?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, is completely right. When we and the CAA wrote to the industry at the beginning of June, we said that we wanted each airport to set up airport partner working groups, which would bring together the airport itself, the airlines, the ground handlers, Border Force and air traffic control. We are conscious that ground handling is an important part of the movement of passengers and their luggage through airports, so we will conduct a review of the sector to look at its quality and efficiency and at whether there are any opportunities for change.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, is it not the case that we need six free pages to accommodate stamps when travelling within the European Union, for example, if that passport needs to be stamped to enter the country? What can be done to discourage or even stop airlines from taking bookings on already overbooked flights? It creates additional, questionable revenues on seats that are known not to be available, before placing additional misery on those affected.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government have been absolutely clear with the aviation sector: we do not want short-notice cancellations or overbooked flights. We have done everything that it has asked us to do with the slots hand-back, the legislation for which went through your Lordships’ House recently, as noble Lords may have seen. In return, having done everything the aviation sector would like, we do not want passengers being treated in the way in which the noble Viscount explained.