Afghanistan

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2013 Ministerial Corrections

[Dr Fox]

To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how much has been spent by his Department on cases brought by public interest lawyers against the Government on behalf of Afghan nationals.

[Official Report, 14 January 2013, Vol. 556, c. 591W.]

Letter of correction from Andrew Robathan:

An error has been identified in the written answer given to the right hon. Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) on 14 January 2013.

The full answer given was as follows:

[Mr Robathan]

The total cost to date of cases brought by Public Interest Lawyers Ltd on behalf of Afghan nationals (including cases brought on behalf of UK nationals relating to the interests of Afghan nationals) is approximately £1,451,000, excluding the cost of Ministry of Defence (MOD) staff time.

In addition, the MOD has incurred costs of around £683,000 on cases brought on behalf of Afghan nationals by other firms including Leigh Day and Co.

The correct answer should have been:

[Mr Robathan]

The total cost to date of cases brought by Public Interest Lawyers Ltd on behalf of Afghan nationals (including cases brought on behalf of UK nationals relating to the interests of Afghan nationals) is approximately £1,451,000, excluding the cost of Ministry of Defence (MOD) staff time.

In addition, the MOD has incurred costs of around £483,000 on cases brought on behalf of Afghan nationals by other firms including Leigh Day and Co.

Unmanned Air Vehicles

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Thursday 24th January 2013 Ministerial Corrections

[Mr Robathan]

The Hermes 450 Unmanned Aerial Vehicle is not flown in the UK nor have there been any crashes in the UK.

Since 2007 there have been 11 Hermes 450 crashes in Afghanistan.

An end-to-end review for army unmanned aerial systems training has recently been conducted which reported at the end of September 2012. As a result, several changes have already been made to unmanned aerial systems training to increase airmanship standards in a number of areas, with further improvements to follow.

The correct answer should have been:

[Mr Robathan]

The Hermes 450 Unmanned Aerial Vehicle is not flown in the UK nor have there been any crashes in the UK.

Since 2007 there have been eight Hermes 450 crashes in Afghanistan.

An end-to-end review for army unmanned aerial systems training has recently been conducted which reported at the end of September 2012. As a result, several changes have already been made to unmanned aerial systems training to increase airmanship standards in a number of areas, with further improvements to follow.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Monday 14th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

1. What recent assessment he has made of the readiness of British forces based in the Falkland Islands; and if he will make a statement.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

My right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary is, as we speak, en route to Australia with the Foreign Secretary to attend the Australia and UK ministerial talks, and sends his apologies both to you, Mr Speaker, and to the House.

Before I answer the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant) I am sure that he and the whole House would like to join me in paying tribute to Sapper Richard Walker, who was killed in Afghanistan last Monday. Sapper Walker was, by all accounts, an impressive young soldier. The loss felt by his colleagues, friends and family is unimaginable and a reminder of the difficult and dangerous job that our brave armed forces do every day. I was in Afghanistan last week and saw for myself the real progress that is being made in helping the Afghans take responsibility for their own security, which in turn protects us here at home. We honour Sapper Walker’s sacrifice and send our heartfelt condolences to his family.

Turning to the question, the Ministry of Defence keeps force levels in the south Atlantic under constant review to ensure that we retain appropriate levels of defensive capabilities. We retain the ability to reinforce the Falkland Islands should the need arise.

[Michael Fabricant]

My right hon. Friend will know that there is increased sabre-rattling from President Cristina Kirchner and that on 11 March there will be a referendum in the Falklands regarding their future status. Does he think and is he confident that our present armed forces on the Falkland Islands can defend the islands, and are we capable of quick reinforcement should that be necessary?

[Mr Robathan]

We all hope and, indeed, expect that the referendum will reinforce the relationship between Britain and the Falkland Islands. This is, of course, a Falkland Islands Government initiative. On the ability to defend the Falklands, we have—this is all in the public domain—four Typhoon aircraft, a company of soldiers, a south Atlantic guard ship and, of course, submarines, but we do not comment on where they are to be found. I am confident that we can defend the islands and we also have Mount Pleasant airfield for immediate reinforcement by air.

[Mr David Crausby (Bolton North East) (Lab)]

In the event that the Argentines should illegally occupy the Falkland Islands again, what assistance does the Minister expect from French military forces in expelling any invaders? Has he had any discussions with his European counterparts with regard to their assistance this time around?

[Mr Robathan]

First, I think it highly unlikely that the Argentines will invade the Falkland Islands, not least because I understand that there is a clause in Argentina’s constitution that specifically excludes invading the Falkland Islands or taking them by force. I have not had any discussions with the French on this matter and nor do I think has my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

Further to that point, does my right hon. Friend agree that the Argentine armed forces are pretty much incapable of invading the Falkland Islands? Their submarines have been underwater for only six hours each this year and most of their aircraft are grounded through lack of spares and lack of training.

[Mr Robathan]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. Indeed, since the days of General Galtieri, there has been a definite separation between the civilian Government and the armed forces. Certainly, it does not appear—although one should not be complacent—that their armed forces are well equipped at the moment.

[Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con)]

2. What recent discussions he has had with European Defence Ministers on the security situation in Mali.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

The UK has been heavily involved in discussions on Mali, both in multilateral institutions and bilaterally for many months. Over the weekend, we responded swiftly to a request from the French for logistical assistance by making available two C-17 transport aircraft. The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness (Mark Simmonds), who has responsibility for Africa, will make a statement to the House on the situation in Mali later this afternoon.

[Mel Stride]

I met recently with my constituent, Caroline Hart, who, through the Joliba Trust, has done a great deal to alleviate suffering in Mali. One of her and her colleagues’ main concerns on the ground in that country is the widespread abuse of human rights on all sides of the conflict. Will my right hon. Friend please set out the steps that the Government are taking to ensure that human rights are at the centre of what we do as we engage in that conflict?

[Mr Robathan]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. Mali is not a country that is renowned for good human rights. The rebel forces, who appear to be Islamist and linked to al-Qaeda, are likely to carry out even worse abuses than anything that has been seen before. We are supporting our French allies in Mali, in support of United Nations Security Council resolution 2087. I know that everybody at the United Nations will be concerned about human rights, as is everybody in this Government.

[Mr Jim Murphy (East Renfrewshire) (Lab)]

The Opposition share in the tribute offered by the Minister to Sapper Walker and his family at this dreadful time, following his loss in Afghanistan.

The situation in Mali is grave, with al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb controlling huge swathes of the country. Unchecked, that could become a real threat to the UK and to others. That is why we support the action that is being taken. However, can the Minister spell out the full list of military capabilities that have been offered to the French, and will he rule out the deployment of additional UK military assets in response to the Mali crisis?

[Mr Robathan]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his condolences to Sapper Walker’s family and for his support for our action in supporting the French. We gave the C-17 aircraft in response to a request from the French for support. They have not asked for any further assets, nor have we offered them. At the moment, we have no plans to deploy any ground forces to Mali.

[Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)]

I support with enthusiasm this well-timed illustration of European co-operation and hope that it is the harbinger of things to come. May I ask my right hon. Friend a number of questions about the military aspects?

[Sir Menzies Campbell]

Who will have command and control of the aircraft? Without going into details, will adequate and proper intelligence be provided? Since the French do not operate C-17s, is it the intention to deploy ground crew in support of the aircraft?

[Mr Robathan]

Buy one, get three free. First, I agree entirely with the right hon. and learned Gentleman about European co-operation. This matter gives the lie to those who say that we do not co-operate with our European allies and friends. I am getting lost thinking about what questions he asked. On whether we have adequate intelligence, the French have intelligence. We are sending our C-17s only into remote Bamako, the capital. We are sending C-17s because they are an asset that the French cannot replicate, so they have to charter such aircraft. I cannot remember what the third question was. [Hon. Members: “Ground crew.”] I do not believe that we are putting in a substantial ground crew, but I am sure that some people will be on the ground briefly. This deployment has a limited time scale of one week, although that could increase.

[Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)]

3. What discussions his Department has had with other Government Departments on supporting the armed forces covenant.

--- Later in debate ---

[George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con)]

5. What recent progress he has made on improving the interoperability of UK and French expeditionary forces.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

Following the 2010 Lancaster House treaties and operations in Libya, interoperability with France continues to improve—indeed, I have further examples of co-operation with our French allies. Two weeks ago, a Royal Navy helicopter operating from a French frigate as a part of Operation Atalanta played a significant role in the arrest of 12 Somali pirates. As I said, last weekend at the request of President Hollande we agreed to provide two RAF C-17s to support the deployment of French troops and equipment to Mali. We are working successfully to establish the combined joint expeditionary force—CJEF—which is planned to reach full operating capability in 2016. In the longer term we are taking forward a comprehensive portfolio of co-operation on equipment and capabilities that will provide both nations with the capabilities to meet the needs of our expeditionary forces including, for instance, unmanned aerial vehicles and missiles known as complex weapons.

[George Eustice]

In the light of events in recent days in Mali and British logistical support for the French operation there, will the Minister say a little more about what is being done to improve co-operation specifically on the sharing and deployment of military equipment?

[Mr Robathan]

On the deployment of military equipment, we are using the C-17s to deploy French military equipment. On joint working, we are particularly looking at Watchkeeper—an unmanned aerial vehicle—and future combat air systems, which are looking at very complex issues. We are also, of course, working together on the A400M.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

In October 2010 the Prime Minister said that switching to the F-35C would increase operability with the French carrier. Given that the French do not have the right weapons, that their pilots would not be trained on the F-35, and that the F-35 could not land or take off on the Charles de Gaulle, what exactly did the Prime Minister mean?

[Mr Robathan]

Switching variant does not make any difference to whether or not the aircraft could land on the Charles de Gaulle. We are co-operating with the Charles de Gaulle and we do not see the two aircraft carriers as being interoperable; we see them as separate but linked assets, and we certainly support the French. Indeed, during Exercise Corsican Lion, the Secretary of State, the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Mr Dunne) and I had lunch on the Charles de Gaulle, and very good it was too. I assure hon. Members that we discussed equipment, interoperability and other matters.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

6. What support he has received from major employers for the proposals set out in his Reserves Green Paper.

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[Karl MᶜCartney (Lincoln) (Con)]

7. What recent discussions he has had with his international security assistance force partners on the draw-down of combat troops from Afghanistan.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

The timing and number of troop draw-down is a matter for individual countries, in discussion with the international security assistance force. However, we have regular and routine discussions with a number of our NATO and ISAF allies on a range of issues, including force levels in Afghanistan. With our allies, we remain committed to the strategy and time scales agreed at the NATO Lisbon summit in 2010. We also stand firmly by our commitments made at the Chicago summit in May, and we will continue to support the Afghan national security forces long after 2014 when our combat mission ends. As the ANSF continue to grow in capability and capacity, and increasingly take the security lead throughout Afghanistan, it is right that ISAF nations gradually draw down their force levels.

[Karl MᶜCartney]

Can the Minister elaborate on the Department’s definition of combat troops? Perhaps more importantly, could he elucidate for the House the definition of non-combat troops—and will this change after 2014?

[Mr Robathan]

My hon. Friend asks a very good question. I was in Afghanistan last week. We envisage the primary role of British forces after 2014 to be assisting, mentoring and teaching at the Afghan national officer academy in Qargha outside Kabul. Beyond that, after 2014, we do not envisage any combat troops being involved in what one might describe as face-to-face operations with the enemy; we see them—if at all—in a mentoring capacity only.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

As the President of the United States and President Karzai met last week and were reported to have discussed accelerating the process of the withdrawal of troops, will the Government consider following the policies of the Netherlands and Canada and bring our troops home earlier?

[Mr Robathan]

We work in close co-operation with the Americans and other ISAF allies, and we have a sensible trajectory to withdraw all our combat troops by the end of next year. We are already not involved in the face-to-face operations in which we were involved two years’ ago, and we are witnessing a thankful reduction in our casualties. We do not intend to bring our troops out early. We think that that would be a great disadvantage to peace in Afghanistan.

[Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD)]

May I ask my right hon. Friend about the process of packing up and getting our kit out of Afghanistan and bringing it home? How long will that take? When will it begin and finish? How many troops will be tied up in that logistical task rather than the combat task? How much kit are we going to leave behind?

[Mr Speaker]

That was three or four questions. I shall indulge the former Minister—he is a knighted one, I note—but I know that the Minister will provide a pithy reply.

[Mr Robathan]

That is the second time today that I have been asked more than one question from the Liberal Democrat Benches. My hon. Friend is right to say that the withdrawal of our large amount of equipment in Afghanistan is a big issue. We are in negotiations with the Pakistanis and hope that we will be able to bring a great deal more back through the Pakistan land route than we are currently capable of doing. We expect to bring almost all our equipment out, although some may be gifted to the Afghans when we leave.

[Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

Does the Minister recall that the Secretary of State recently revealed to the House that there was a possibility that the Americans might take over Camp Bastion? Can he update the House on this matter, given that without the maintenance of one or more regional strategic bases, our interests in the area may well unravel after 2014?

[Mr Robathan]

My hon. Friend asks a good and searching question. Camp Bastion has had a great deal of investment. Notwithstanding the recent attack, it is a sensible place to have a base as it easily defensible, and we are in negotiations with the Americans and the Afghans on its future. I have no answer to give my hon. Friend at the moment, but I will keep him updated and, when there is a definite answer, I will write to him and let him know.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

10. What recent assessment he has made of the security situation in the middle east; and if he will make a statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

The Secretary of State’s first priority is and will remain the success of the operation in Afghanistan. Beyond that, his priority is to deliver the military tasks for which the MOD has a mandate. The MOD is also engaged in a major project of transformation to bring about the behavioural change that is needed to maintain a balanced budget, and to deliver equipment programmes so that our armed forces can be confident of being properly equipped and trained. With the benefit of a balanced budget on which to build, we now need to focus on the future and, in particular, on building the trust and confidence of the people who make up defence.

[Mel Stride]

My right hon. Friend will be aware of the concern expressed in the recent Defence Committee report on cyber-security in defence. I know that cyber-security is a very sensitive matter, but what can the Minister do to assure the public that we are well and truly on top of it?

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[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

T8. Last week, 1.2 million people lost their entitlement to all or part of their child benefit. Can the Minister say how many people in the armed forces are affected by that change? Will he assure us that every single member of the armed forces has been notified that they would lose all or part of their child benefit?

[Mr Robathan]

I think we all regret any reduction in benefits. In the same way that members of the armed forces, such as myself—or my wife, more accurately—are losing child benefit, so we will all lose child benefit if we are paid the relevant amount. I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman should imagine that members of the armed forces are so ignorant of what is happening in the world that they need to be specially told. They are sensible people who can stand on their own feet and they do not need to be patronised by him.

[Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)]

Will Ministers join me in paying tribute to the service provided by the defence attachés across the world and to the very important contribution they make to defence diplomacy? Do Ministers agree that defence attachés also have a vital role to play in conflict prevention? Will the Minister make a short report to the House on how that work impinges on their other duties?

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[John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)]

Further to the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes), is the Minister aware that there is a strong public perception that we are seeing a serious escalation in Britain’s role in Syria? Will he assure the House that we will not see any British troops in front-line roles in that country at any point?

[Mr Robathan]

We would need a legal basis to intervene in Syria. The humanitarian situation there is appalling, but we would need a legal basis and a clear opposition with whom to work. At the moment, there is no clarity, although we have recognised the National Coalition. We are waiting to see how the international diplomatic and political efforts work as we would rather see a political and diplomatic solution than a military one.

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[Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD)]

T9. Ministers will be aware of the great potential of Norfolk’s RAF Marham as a base for the joint strike fighter. Will they update the House on the timetable on which basing decisions will be made?

[Mr Robathan]

I will. As, regrettably, the decisions on the basing review have been delayed because of the autumn statement, we very much hope to announce the basing review soon and I shall make sure that the hon. Gentleman knows what the results are.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

Medical analysis shows us that reservists are more susceptible than regulars to post-deployment mental health problems and post-traumatic stress disorder. What improvements are being made specifically to post-deployment care for reservists?

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[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

If the UK Government are to meet the costs of the C-17s for the Mali operation, will the Minister identify which Government Department will meet those costs?

[Mr Robathan]

I am afraid I cannot answer that question. Omniscient though I may be, I do not know the answer, but I will write to the hon. Gentleman and let him know.

[Peter Luff (Mid Worcestershire) (Con)]

For the third time of asking at three successive Defence questions, may I ask the Minister when we can expect the publication of the very important but long-delayed audited defence equipment plan?

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[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

May I thank the Minister for agreeing to meet me and the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) to discuss the future of the Kirton in Lindsey base? Does he agree that where communities have had long-standing historic relationships with the military in their area, it is crucial that the Ministry of Defence has proper discussions about the future?

[Mr Robathan]

We are very keen to maintain good links between the armed forces and communities. I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman and I look forward to meeting him shortly, when I hope we can come to a sensible agreement on the matter.

[Mr Speaker]

Last but not least, I call Stephen Gilbert.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Monday 26th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)]

9. What his policy is on combat immunity; and if he will make a statement.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

Combat immunity is an important legal principle that the MOD is committed to defend. The courts have consistently held that a soldier involved in combat or under an immediate threat should be able to focus on the task of fighting. Constant assessment of personal liability on the battlefield could lead to paralysis across the chain of command and result in military failure and increased loss of life through operational inefficiency. Imposing a duty of care in those circumstances is not appropriate and would reduce operational effectiveness. However, there is a recognised mechanism to compensate for injury or death under existing statutory schemes.

[Joan Walley]

Does the Minister agree, though, that the MOD’s decision not to make a further appeal against the ruling of the Court of Appeal in the case of the late Corporal Stephen Allbutt—I pay tribute to his widow’s courage—is a landmark in respect of combat immunity? Given that the clear consequences of that ruling are that the MOD owes a duty of care properly to equip its troops when they go into battle, does the Minister agree that an urgent review of procurement and training—never mind statutory schemes—is needed in the interests of the safety and morale of our armed forces?

[Mr Robathan]

You will understand, Mr Speaker, that it would be inappropriate for me to comment on any ongoing legal procedures. The hon. Lady should realise, however, that we are absolutely committed to defending the position of combat immunity. It would be very worrying if soldiers, sailors and airmen in battle were concerned about looking over their shoulders the whole time for fear of legal challenge. Of course we wish people to be properly trained and properly equipped; we are determined that that should happen and we believe that they are so.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

What legal advice is provided to battlefield commanders to make sure that they fully appreciate their obligations?

[Mr Robathan]

All battlefield commanders of whatever rank are given appropriate training and advice on the legal position, from the Geneva convention onwards, and on training with equipment and the like.

[Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)]

10. What recent progress there has been on security transition in Afghanistan.

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[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

13. Whether he has met the commander of 12th Mechanized Brigade following its return from Afghanistan.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence met the commander of 12th Mechanized Brigade, Brigadier Doug Chalmers, during his last visit to Afghanistan in September. On 23 October, the Secretary of State and I were pleased to meet the commander in Parliament when he briefed both Houses and all parties on the brigade’s deployment on Operation Herrick 16.

[Mr Gray]

I hope that the Minister for the Armed Forces, other Ministers and all Members of the House are aware that some 20 minutes from now, there will be another opportunity to meet Brigadier Doug Chalmers and the 120 soldiers of 12th Mechanized Brigade as they march, led by the band of the Grenadier Guards, through the gates of Parliament and down to the north door of Westminster Hall. As we welcome them, I hope that hon. Members will remember not only those who have not come home with the brigade, but those who have come home with life-changing injuries and the families who support our soldiers, sailors and airmen as they go off to operations in Afghanistan.

[Mr Robathan]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for setting up the march-ins at Parliament. They are a valuable and tangible sign of the respect that we owe our armed forces when they go to war on our behalf. He has done a great deal to organise them. I share his sentiments about those who have not returned, the families of the bereaved and those who have come back with life-threatening illnesses. I shall be at the march-in at some stage this afternoon or this evening, and the Secretary of State hopes to be there as well.

[Mr Speaker]

I shall be here, but I hope that the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) will pass on my respect and appreciation, which I would have preferred to convey in person.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

I echo the Minister’s comments on the massive contribution of 12th Mechanized Brigade.

I recognise what the Secretary of State has just said about the importance of the message that we send to the Taliban and the Afghan army, but what message will be sent by the reduction in the size of the Afghan army in respect of the security of Afghanistan?

[Mr Robathan]

The total size of the Afghan national security forces is approaching 352,000. It is for Afghanistan to make decisions for the future. We continue to support the democratically elected Government of Afghanistan, as do the Opposition.

[Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab)]

14. What plans he has for the future of Defence Equipment and Support; and if he will make a statement.

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[Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)]

T5. Following recent international cyber-security incidents such as the Flame and Shamoon viruses, what recent steps have been taken to secure MOD systems and critical national infrastructure?

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

My hon. Friend will understand that I would not wish to go too deep into security systems. What I can say is that we take the threat of cyber-attack very seriously. That applies both to the commercial world and the public sector in the UK, including defence. We are pursuing this issue with other organs of Government and we are also ensuring that we have niche capabilities within defence that can assist us in protecting against cyber-attack.

[Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)]

T4. Does the Secretary of State agree that he should make an assessment of the contribution made by UK armed forces and related MOD contracts to Scotland’s economy? I am a member of the Scottish Affairs Committee and our inquiry, although not yet complete, would seem to suggest that the contribution is immense and the implications of separation would be devastating. Do any of the Ministers agree that the loss of jobs and investment is simply too high a price to pay if the MOD and UK armed forces leave Scotland?

[Mr Robathan]

The hon. Gentleman will not be surprised to know that all MOD Ministers agree with what he said—not just “any” of them. Furthermore, probably all Members in the Chamber at present would agree with him.

Defence

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Monday 26th November 2012 Ministerial Corrections

[Jeremy Corbyn]

To ask the Secretary of State for Defence which countries have hosted a British Military Advisory Training Team since 2007; and in each such case on what dates and at what costs.

[Official Report, 25 October 2012, Vol. 551, c. 982-85W.]

Letter of correction from Andrew Robathan:

An error has been identified in the written answer given to the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) on 25 October 2012.

The full answer given was as follows:

[Mr Robathan]

[holding answer 22 October 2012]: British Military Advisory Training Teams are small military teams based permanently within the country where they are delivering military training and advice. The following table also shows other permanent small military teams that have delivered similar effect since 2007.

[Mr Robathan]

[holding answer 22 October 2012]: British Military Advisory Training Teams are small military teams based permanently within the country where they are delivering military training and advice. The following table also shows other permanent small military teams that have delivered similar effect since 2007.

Reserves (Call-Out Order) (Afghanistan)

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Friday 9th November 2012 Written Statements

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

With the expiry of the call-out order made on 11 November 2011, a new order has been made under section 54 of the Reserve Forces Act 1996 to enable reservists to continue to be called out into service to support operations in Afghanistan. The new order is effective until 10 November 2013. Reservists continue to make a valuable contribution to operations in that country and over 2,000 have been called out over the last year. Over 530 reservists are currently deployed in Afghanistan.

Reserves (Call-Out Order) (Global Security Objectives)

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Friday 9th November 2012 Written Statements

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

With the expiry of the call-out order made on 8 November 2011, a new call-out order has been made under section 56 of the Reserve Forces Act 1996 to enable reservists to continue to be called out into permanent service to support our wider efforts to counter the threat from international terrorism and piracy, and to assist our maritime security objectives. The order takes effect from 8 November 2012 and ceases to have effect on 7 November 2013. Some 75 members of the reserve forces were called out under this order last year and their continued support is greatly appreciated and valued.

Combat Troop Withdrawal (Afghanistan)

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Wednesday 7th November 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

It is a pleasure to serve under you, Mr Crausby. I think this is the first time you have chaired a debate in which I have taken part. May I begin by being the first Minister to congratulate President Obama on his re-election? I recall that his first campaign slogan, four years ago, was “hope”, which is of significance in our debate today. Of course, his re-election is hugely significant for the whole international security assistance force policy in Afghanistan.

I gently say to the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn), who has raised this important and emotive debate, that he will never find me, or almost any former soldier, glorifying war. I can promise him that those who have seen warfare do not wish to repeat it.

I begin by echoing the sentiments of those who have already spoken by paying tribute to the brave men and women of our armed forces. They operate in Afghanistan, the most demanding of environments, and every day they demonstrate immense personal courage. Since the operations in Afghanistan began in 2001, we have sadly seen 437 service personnel make the ultimate sacrifice, and this week, more than ever, we should remember them. Their loss is keenly felt, and on behalf of everyone in this Chamber I extend our sympathies to their family and friends.

In the face of such sacrifice by our troops, we should be in no doubt about the importance of the mission. We are in Afghanistan for one overriding reason: to protect our own national security by helping the Afghans take control of their own. Afghanistan is currently the main focus of the Ministry of Defence, and our strategy is designed to enable the country effectively to manage its own security and prevent its territory from ever again becoming a safe haven for international terrorism.

At the Kabul conference in July 2010, President Karzai stated his ambition that the Afghan national security forces would have full security responsibility across Afghanistan by the end of 2014. That is an Afghan objective, which we fully support in NATO. It is being delivered through the strategy of phased transition of security responsibility from ISAF to the ANSF, which was agreed at the NATO summit in Lisbon in 2010. The strategy allows ISAF gradually and responsibly to draw down its forces as it completes its mission by the end of December 2014.

The process of transition to the Afghans is now well advanced and on track to complete by the end of 2014. A trained force of more than 335,000, the ANSF is taking an ever-increasing role in its own domestic security. The ANSF will soon have lead responsibility in areas that are home to three quarters of the population, including all 34 provincial capitals and the three districts that make up Task Force Helmand. That is a clear demonstration that the Afghans are well on track to managing their own security.

[Paul Flynn]

I have heard this speech 1,000 times. The Minister took notes during the debate, so will he answer anything that was raised? Will he tell us precisely what the threat to our constituents is from the Taliban in Afghanistan?

[Mr Robathan]

I am coming to that.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Just out of interest, how long do the Government and the MOD expect the Karzai regime to stay in place once western troops are removed?

[Mr Robathan]

I am afraid that is something on which neither I nor any other Minister will speculate. Of course, as we understand it President Karzai will be standing down next year before the presidential elections.

In the first six months of this year, the ANSF led 80% of conventional operations in Afghanistan. ANSF troops are deploying in formed units, carrying out their own operations and planning complex security arrangements. They are also carrying out 85% of their own training, and in the areas covered by all three tranches of transition there has been a year-to-date decrease of enemy-initiated attacks.

As transition progresses, the campaign shifts from an ISAF-led counter-insurgency mission to an Afghan one. For ISAF, this means that the mission is gradually evolving from one primarily focused on combat to one based on the concepts of training, advising and assisting. The security force assistance model is the mechanism that oversees this process. It has been implemented this year and will be fully operational by mid-2013, when we expect the final Afghan districts to enter the transition process. That will mark a point of huge significance, when the Afghans will be in the security lead across the country.

[Paul Flynn]

Could the Minister perhaps try to learn the concept of “debate”, whereby we give arguments and he answers them? Can he desert his civil service script for a moment and answer the points that were made in the debate?

[Mr Robathan]

I think the hon. Gentleman will find that I will get every point that he has made on the record answered.

The security force assistance model has a progressively lighter relationship with the ANSF, it will be generally smaller and it will enable greater flexibility, allowing troop-contributing nations such as the UK gradually to draw down their force levels, and that is the subject we are debating today.

In Helmand, the ANSF now provides security with confidence and real ability in the densely populated areas of Lashkar Gah and Nad-e Ali. ISAF has physically moved out of those areas, withdrawing combat troops and handing over our bases as we move to the fringes. Since April, we have been able to reduce the number of UK bases in Helmand from 80 to 39 as the Afghans assume day-to-day responsibility.

In the third district of Nahr-e Saraj, the Afghans are now firmly in the lead in Gereshk town and along the strategically important highway 1. Our taskforce in Helmand now consists of two distinct parts: an adviser network, and a manoeuvre element that still operates in a combat role, where necessary, to disrupt the insurgency. This has provided the ANSF with the time and space to develop its own capabilities and build local national confidence. It has seized that opportunity and the results really are there for all to see, and I echo what the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) said in that regard.

Recent independent polling has shown that 58% of Helmandis now see the ANSF as the main provider of their security. I heard what the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) said about distrust of the ANSF; I think that is changing. We only need to look at the growth of the market towns, the thriving bazaars and the volume of traffic on the roads—they are clear evidence of the success of the local economy and indeed of the security situation. The efforts of our armed forces and the whole of the Afghan Government have meant that there are now almost 6 million children in school, which is up from 1 million in 2001. Of those children, 38% are girls, which is up from almost none in 2001.

Democracy is taking hold—perhaps not perfectly—and voters can look forward to choosing their own future, rather than having it dictated to them by the very worst of authoritarian regimes. The security gains made by our armed forces have transformed the future of Afghanistan. Our commitment to support Afghanistan is not solely military and it will endure beyond the cessation of our combat operations.

Helmand remains a difficult and challenging environment, and the insurgency is a constant threat. There is absolutely no room for complacency but there is a tangible record of improvement, driven by the UK troops that have been deployed in Helmand since 2006. If I might turn to our armed forces, they can be rightly proud of their achievement.

The reality on the ground is that Afghan forces are increasingly taking the lead. That is the progress that allows us gradually to reduce our force levels and to withdraw our combat troops by the end of 2014, and the Prime Minister has been very clear about that since he was elected in 2010. There will not be a cliff-edge reduction of our troops in 2014, which means that our force levels will be constantly kept under review and reduced.

The Defence Secretary set out in April that UK forces will draw down by 500 to 9,000 by the end of this year. We expect to make gradual further reductions to our force levels next year, but no further decisions have yet been made as to the exact numbers. Any further decisions will be taken by the National Security Council and will take into account military advice, the pace of transition and conditions on the ground, but we are firmly committed to the strategy and time scales agreed at Lisbon, and to the ISAF principle of “In together, out together.” As NATO’s Secretary-General set out earlier this year, the decisions made at Lisbon

“will remain the bedrock of our strategy”.

However, that does not signal the end of our support for Afghanistan and its people. At the Chicago summit and the Tokyo conference, the international community committed to give long-term support to the Afghans as they shape their country over the “transformation decade”. NATO will establish a new, non-combat mission in Afghanistan, in which this country will play its part. In addition to our funding commitments, the UK will continue to support the development of the ANSF in our role as the lead coalition partner at the new Afghan national army officer academy. Although Afghanistan will continue to face many complex challenges, taken as a package this support will help to underpin Afghanistan’s future and security.

To those people, like the hon. Member for Newport West, who say, “Why don’t you bring our troops home?”, I say, “We are bringing them home—they are coming home”, but we are not going to cut and run. We will come out with the task completed and with British troops holding their heads high, because we are leaving behind us well-trained Afghan forces to defend their country and to protect our security.

The campaign in Afghanistan has not been without significant cost and we will face difficult days ahead. It is appropriate that we hold this debate during the week of national remembrance. On Sunday, I am sure that we will all be paying tribute to those who have made the ultimate sacrifice in service to their country. In total, 437 servicemen and women have been killed in Afghanistan, bringing pain to their families and friends. Who has not shed a tear for the young men and women who have fallen in the service of our country? Who has not been moved by those who have been injured but who have displayed extraordinary determination—such as was seen at the Paralympics—to rebuild their lives?

The Government were not in power when the mission in Afghanistan began, but we have a responsibility to see it through. The UK’s national security has been safeguarded by the sacrifices and efforts of British troops in Afghanistan. We will not undermine that by abandoning Afghanistan before the task is complete.

[Paul Flynn]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Robathan]

I am just drawing to a close.

We seek to leave behind a stable Afghanistan, which is able to manage its own security effectively. As we look ahead to Remembrance Sunday, it is fitting that all of us here pay tribute to those who have served our country in the most difficult of circumstances. We should honour those who continue to serve, protecting our national interests at home and abroad—day by day, night by night—as we stand here. We remember them and their efforts.

I personally remember soldiers of mine—friends—who were killed in the Falklands, in Northern Ireland and in the Gulf. I have written letters to widows and comforted families, and it is a pretty ghastly thing to have to do. I say to all people here in Westminster Hall today that about 200 yards away, in St Margaret’s church, there is an exhibition of war paintings by Arabella Dorman. One especially powerful painting is entitled “I am strong”, and it commemorates a young man—Sean Reeve—who was killed four years ago in Afghanistan. Typically courageously, he went out on duty just as he was about to go home to England, having volunteered for an extra patrol, and he was then killed. I met his mother last night. Ministers in this House—in this Government and in the last Government—are not immune to the emotions that these things bring. We do not send people to die lightly. We understand the anguish of the bereaved and their real pain. I am sure that all of us here have met the families of those who serve, and the families of those who have fallen. It is fitting that we salute their efforts, which were made on our behalf.

Let me reassure all those who have spoken today, and all those in this House, that this Government intend to finish what the previous Government started. We will bring our troops home, knowing that we will leave behind an Afghanistan that is a better Afghanistan with a brighter future.

[Mr David Crausby (in the Chair)]

Order.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Monday 22nd October 2012 Commons Chamber

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

5. Whether his Department has undertaken any preparations for the removal of the nuclear fleet from HMNB Clyde in the event of Scottish independence.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

The UK Government are confident that the people of Scotland will choose to remain part of the United Kingdom, and we are not making plans for Scottish independence. We therefore have no plan for the strategic nuclear deterrent to be relocated from its current home at Her Majesty’s Naval Base Clyde.

[David Mowat]

The Minister will be aware that last week the Scottish National party decided that an independent Scotland would join NATO, availing itself of the nuclear umbrella. It then voted to evict the UK deterrent from the Clyde. Replicating that facility would cost millions and take many years. Is that a coherent policy or a hypocritical rant?

[Mr Robathan]

I have to say that that question is best addressed to the SNP, but unfortunately no SNP Members are here to answer it at the moment. It is almost incredible that a country might wish to join NATO but then say that NATO’s assets and armaments would not be allowed to be stationed in that country or pass through it.

[Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)]

The Minister has noted that there is no SNP presence in the House today. The hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) said, “Who dares wins,” but SNP Members do not dare turn up to engage in the debate.

Does the Minister agree that it smacks of a contradiction for the SNP to say that it wants to join an international alliance and promote co-operation with NATO, and at the very same time say that it wants to leave a Union that best serves the defence of Scotland?

[Mr Robathan]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, because I entirely agree. That is an interesting dilemma that members of the SNP will have to sort out among themselves.

[Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)]

We should not be too hard on SNP Members. I am sure that pressing engagements in their constituencies have prevented them from attending Defence questions.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that we can share respect for those who are opposed to nuclear weapons in principle, but that we can share only incomprehension at those who say they are opposed to nuclear weapons in principle and then want to join an alliance that is based on nuclear deterrence?

[Mr Robathan]

I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, and I do agree with him. If I may, I shall quote from The Guardian—not always my favourite reading. It stated this morning:

“After losing Friday’s vote, rebels inside the party now want him”—

the First Minister—

“to prove that NATO would allow a non-nuclear Scotland to join the alliance.”

That is a very good point.

[Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)]

The hon. Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) is exactly right. What we witnessed at the SNP conference at the end of last week was double standards—the shelter of the NATO umbrella, but the removal of Trident.

Has the Minister heard that the Scottish Government are establishing a defence department or section? What formal approaches have Ministers had from the Scottish Government, or from that dedicated department, about the removal of the nuclear fleet from an independent Scotland? The SNP talks about that a lot, but have there been any approaches?

[Mr Robathan]

This is an unusual outbreak of consensus throughout the Chamber, and I welcome what the hon. Gentleman says. I believe that the Scottish Government have a Minister for Veteran Affairs, who shares the hon. Gentleman’s surname, but if I am honest I am not quite sure what he does. We have had no contact from the Scottish Government about a department of defence. We remain committed to the United Kingdom, and I am glad to say that there is agreement pretty much throughout the Chamber on the need to continue the UK.

[Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his well deserved promotion. Will we continue with the UK’s Trident ballistic missile nuclear deterrent irrespective of the outcome of the Scottish vote?

[Mr Robathan]

I thank my hon. Friend for his congratulations. Current Government policy is to continue with the continuous at-sea nuclear deterrent based on Trident. Should the Scots vote for independence—God forbid!—we would need to review the situation, but the continuous at-sea nuclear deterrent remains our policy, and I see that proceeding into the future.

[Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)]

I echo the sentiment that we should not be too hard on SNP Members who are not in the Chamber—after all, we want to keep them in this place. Is the Minister aware of any discussions that SNP Ministers have held about their plans to remove the deterrent with either the United States or other NATO members?

[Mr Robathan]

There have been no discussions with the UK Government or, as far as I am aware, with any other NATO member. As I said earlier, I think it incredible that NATO would accept in the alliance a country that would not allow the various weapons used by NATO to be stationed in or pass through it.

[Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)]

6. What the timetable is for the production of the Type 26 combat ship.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

8. How much his Department expects to spend on advertising in 2012-13.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

Nearly all advertising expenditure by the Ministry of Defence is to attract and recruit the best personnel for the armed forces. In the current financial year, the MOD has to date had approval from the Cabinet Office efficiency and reform group to spend £12 million on recruitment marketing operations to fund general service recruitment activities. A further £18 million was approved for specific recruitment marketing campaigns to address pinch points. The efficiency and reform group is due to decide soon whether to grant a further request for £250,000 for marketing operations and just under £3 million for pinch point campaigns. Further requests may arise during the course of the year. Like all Departments, the MOD seeks to minimise the cost of advertising. Spending has, for example, been reduced from nearly £60 million in 2009-10.

[Mr Bone]

I thank the Minister for that full response. It does seem a little strange that we are spending money on advertising for the Army at the same time as we are making members of the armed forces redundant. On the surface, it looks strange: would the Minister comment?

[Mr Robathan]

I know that my hon. Friend has a personal interest in the armed forces as his son is a Chinook pilot who is still flying—I pay tribute to him. His son could probably explain that one needs a constant flow of recruits into the armed forces as otherwise one ends up with an age gap. That has happened in the past—I recall it happening in the 1970s, under the Labour Government of Wilson-Callaghan—so one must continue to recruit; otherwise one ends up with a great gap in skills and ages that is very difficult to fill. A constant age structure is needed throughout the armed forces.

[Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)]

9. What plans he has for the future involvement of UK troops in the mentoring and training of the Afghan National Security Forces.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

T4. What progress is being made on moving bases from Germany to the United Kingdom, and to Stafford?

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

My hon. Friend might know that the 1st Armoured Division’s signal regiment, based at Herford, and the 16th Signal Regiment, based at Elmpt, will move to Beacon barracks in Stafford in the second half of 2015. A competition is under way between four bidders to develop the main site, and we hope to let a contract for that development in the summer of next year.

[Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

T2. There is a degree of confusion over what happened in last Thursday’s debate, so may I ask the Secretary of State to confirm that the Minister for the Armed Forces approached the Speaker’s Chair about the conduct of Fusiliers in the Public Gallery?

[Mr Robathan]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for letting me set the record straight. I have the greatest respect for ex-service personnel, including the Fusiliers who were in the Chamber last week. By the way, I do not think that the hon. Lady was in the Chamber that day, so she does not speak with great effect, does she? Furthermore, I believe that anybody should be allowed to watch our proceedings from the Gallery, because that is an important part of our democratic process. May I finally say that what she alleges is entirely untrue?

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

T5. I shall be pleased to be wearing the Queen’s Jubilee medal for service to the police on Remembrance Sunday this year, but that service pales into insignificance compared with the service given by the Arctic convoy veterans. Should not the Government recognise—or allow the Russian Government to recognise—their heroic role in defeating national socialism?

[Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)]

T6. Last Thursday, the House voted to oppose the disbandment of the 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. Will the Government now have the humility to accept that Commons decision?

[Mr Robathan]

May I say that we had an excellent debate? I have to say that I found myself in a minority of one when it came to speeches defending the Government’s position. We had an excellent debate and we listened carefully to what was said, but I do not think that, at the moment, it is the House’s intention for a vote in such a debate to be binding upon the Government.

[Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)]

T7. Does my right hon. Friend agree that support across society for the work of our brave servicemen and women in keeping our country safe is ever more widely recognised? Will he welcome the support of businesses for the new defence discount scheme and encourage more businesses to get involved in it?

2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Thursday 18th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Glindon]

Both those points strengthen the case for maintaining the 2RRF.

I have been proud to support the local campaign, which has received the kind support of the Newcastle Journal and the Evening Chronicle, which has been fantastic in helping to publicise the fight across our region. The veterans and the Fusiliers have played a massive role in promoting the campaign, and have organised two public events in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, which I have been honoured to attend.

It was at one of these events that the real impact of the Government’s decision hit home. I noticed among the honoured veterans and members of the public a young man standing particularly proud during the minute’s silence, in a way that no other civilian around him did. After the ceremony, as the crowds chattered and photographs were taken, I managed to speak to this young man. He told me that he had been a Fusilier, but that more than a year ago had had an accident and had to leave.

Fortunately, the young man has fully recovered, but he has not been able to find any work since leaving the Army. Shamefully, employers do not always seem keen to employ ex-soldiers. He told me that he would be eligible to re-apply to rejoin the Army in November, and that it was his greatest wish to resume his Army career in the 2nd Battalion. My heart went out to the young man and to all the other young people who, like generations before them, have wanted to serve their country in the military but who now have little prospect of ever being able to serve as full-time soldiers.

Former members of the Territorial Army are sceptical about the Secretary of State’s plans to replace full-time soldiers with an expanded reserve force. They gave me the example of the 6th Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, which had been a well-recruited and fully equipped, operational, NATO-role battalion, and which was recognised as one of the best in the country. The battalion was disbanded and became the Tyne-Tees Regiment in 1999, but it lost all its support weapons, which meant that associated skills were lost too. It now exists as the 5th Rifle Battalion, with only three companies and no support weapons. There is a severe shortage of officers and senior non-commissioned officers, and a lack of funding has meant no training and led to the deskilling of the battalion.

The fear is that disbanding regular units that are not immediately replaced by a reserve capacity creates a wide capacity gap—indeed, a gap in our entire national security. The campaign is clear in its aims. The 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers has no trouble recruiting in London, Manchester, Birmingham or the north-east, as has been said. It is currently at full strength. The regiments that the Government are choosing to save have to recruit largely from foreign and Commonwealth troops. Our Government have said they are committed to British jobs for British people. Clearly in this instance they are not. The campaigners and supporters of the motion know that this is not a fair decision.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

I should point out that the recruitment of foreign and Commonwealth troops took off under the last Government. There was a deliberate policy to recruit up to, I think, 10%. I should say that those troops do a very good job, most of them, and I pay tribute to them, but I do not think the hon. Lady should accuse us of in some way being illogical in this regard.

[Mrs Glindon]

I do not think I mentioned the Minister being “illogical”. The point is that those battalions are poorly recruited and have to go abroad, when in 2RRF we have the strength of the Army being made up from people who are local, as is the regimental tradition.Moreover, I would point out to the Minister that there has been criticism of the decision from top-ranking figures, who state that the abolition of the 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers will not stand up to public scrutiny.

I stated at the beginning of my speech that the motion is not against the brave Scottish soldiers, which is true. However, in the north-east there is a fear that the referendum on Scottish independence will see the Government favouring Scotland over the north-east, in order to keep Scotland in the Union. I do not want to see Scotland leave the UK, nor do I want to see my region pay any economic or social price to ensure that we maintain the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom must be fair and honest to all its people, in all its regions. However, if Scotland becomes independent, it is possible that such a small country will not be able to sustain five battalions, nor will the remaining UK be able to be properly served by the 25 remaining battalions.

In summary, the feelings of everyone who supports the motion are expressed in the words of Major Chester Potts:

“‘Quo Fata Vocant’ (Whither the Fates call) is the regimental motto of the Royal Northumberland Fusiliers. Wherever the fates have called we have been there and shed our blood in the defence of the country. We have fought the nation’s enemies for nearly 350 years now. We never expected our greatest enemy, and architect of our demise would be our own Government.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

I will not, because of the time limit.

The conclusions of any review should also take into account the long-term strategic objectives that will be in the interests of this country, but neither Army 2020 nor the strategic defence and security review did so. The SDSR was rendered out of date within weeks of being written by events in Libya, with equipment that had been scrapped weeks before being brought back into service. Army 2020 has got rid not only of some of the British Army’s best battalions, but of some of the bravest and most dedicated members of the armed forces. The Minister must explain what his criteria are, and how he is going to maintain the necessary skills, even though many have already been lost.

We are told that the numbers have to be cut, but I want to concentrate on the way in which that is being done. There was confusion this summer as the Government let the process linger on, allowing rumours and uncertainty to continue, mainly to save the Prime Minister the embarrassment of making this announcement before Armed Forces day. There have also been substantial cuts in the numbers of our armed forces personnel. Let us remember that, when in opposition in the last few years before the general election, the Conservatives were calling for a larger Army and a larger Navy with more personnel. They have achieved exactly the opposite since they have been in power. They are saying one thing and doing another. [Interruption.] I will come to the question of budgets in a minute, if the hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) will just hold his water.

These decisions are resulting in the Government having a credibility deficit on defence matters, not only with the public but with our armed forces. It is no wonder that there is confusion. The planning assumptions in the SDSR were based on an Army whose manpower was 95,000. Will the Minister tell us whether those assumptions are still being achieved, now that the number has been reduced to 82,000? Will he also be precise about the time scale for the build-up of the reserves? It has already been pointed out that there could be a capability gap in that area. I pay tribute to the members of our reserve forces. It is not surprising to discover from the continuous attitude survey of the armed forces that morale is at an all-time low.

The hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay talked about the criteria that had been applied when making the decisions. Serious questions need to be asked about how and why they were made.

[Mr Robathan]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Jones]

No, I will not. I would if I could get extra time—[Interruption.] No, I could not. I have already taken two interventions; those are the rules.

We are told that the units that were having the greatest recruitment difficulties would be abolished. The 3rd Battalion the Yorkshire Regiment was only six short of its full establishment, and the 2nd Battalion the Royal Fusiliers was only eight short. However, other battalions with much less favourable recruitment records were maintained. It is no wonder that the honorary colonel of the 2nd Battalion the Royal Fusiliers said that the decision to axe his battalion would not “best serve” the armed forces and

“cannot be presented as the best or most sensible military option.”

It has been pleasing to see the turn-out today outside Parliament, and I know the strength of feeling that exists in the north-east of England. My hon. Friend the Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) has already mentioned the tremendous campaign being run by the Newcastle Journal and the Evening Chronicle. We are seeing the ad hoc nature of decision making in whole areas of defence. The fact that Ministers have announced further reductions, over and above the numbers proposed in the SDSR, shows the short-sightedness of their proposals. We said when the SDSR was produced that it was not a blueprint for our strategic future so much as a Treasury-led defence review.

I have already paid tribute to our reservists. The Secretary of State has said that the proposal to back-fill the Army with reservists presents a risk. The fact that the only announcement he has made so far is that he is going to change the name of the Territorial Army leaves questions unanswered. There has been no clarification on training, or on whether employment law needs to be changed, as is quite likely if people are to be released from their employment to serve in the armed forces. So there are still a lot of loose ends, and there will be a capability gap if we are not careful. It is quite clear that Government policy is about deficit reduction and not about what is in the best interest of this country’s defence.

I will touch on the thorny issue of budgets, because we are told that the cuts are justified because of the big, bad Labour Government who left the Ministry of Defence with a £38 billion black hole. From this Dispatch Box, I have repeatedly asked the Government to explain this. The Public Accounts Committee has asked them to explain it, too, but to date nothing is forthcoming. I will be happy to hear, when the Minister replies to the debate—

[Mr Robathan]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Jones]

No, I will not.

[Mr Robathan]

Why not?

[Mr Jones]

Because I do not have the time. I shall wait with anticipation for the first ever breakdown of this figure. As I was saying, this has been the justification for the cuts that we have seen. It is quite clear what has to be done: if we are to take these cuts, the Government must set the record straight and be honest not only with the British public but with our brave servicemen and women.

Historic battalions are being axed for short-term savings without any coherent strategy for our armed forces. We have no confidence that the abolition of battalions, such as the 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers is either in the best interests of the country or is being done on a fair basis. Until Ministers fully explain the criteria behind Army 2020 that justify the abolition of these regiments; until they clarify the reforms to the reserves and the rebasing of forces in Germany on which we still await explanation; and until they are more honest about the state of MOD budget—simply coming here to say that the budget is unbalanced is not good enough—it will be difficult for the Government to have any credibility on defence. More importantly, the people who are quite rightly campaigning against this decision will think that decisions have been taken in an ad hoc way, without taking into consideration the interests of either the 2nd Battalion or of this country’s defence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con)]

I had the privilege to serve, albeit briefly, with 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. As a Lancastrian I am well aware of the high regard in which the regiment is held by the local community, which is reflected in its successful levels of recruitment. I fully support the campaign of my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) and I will not detain the House by repeating the points that he skilfully made in highlighting the many flaws in the Government’s case. I want to address not the criteria, which my hon. Friend tackled, but the wider decision-making rationale that underpins the Government’s measure and that was at the heart of the intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth), who is a distinguished former Ministry of Defence Minister, when he sought to justify why this cut is being made.

First, if a measure such as this is to be positioned on the grounds of cost savings, the first thing one might expect is clarity on how much is being saved. However, when I asked the House of Commons Library that question this morning, answer came there none—it could not tell me. A rough estimate might put the figure at £25 million a year, but the least we might expect from the Minister’s closing remarks is some certainty, if the measure is being justified on cost grounds, as to how much is being saved.

Secondly, the MOD suggests that this cut, which is out of step with the criteria applied to other battalions, is needed to address the defence overspend; but the saving is puny in the context of overall MOD spending, when one considers the reputational impact, the history and the esteem of the front-line service that is being cut.

Let me put this in context and draw the House’s attention to some recent National Audit Office reports. Last year the MOD increased its defence inventory at the same time as it was cutting the size of its armed forces, so we are buying more kit for fewer troops, even though we already had, for example, 10 years’ supply of overalls. We have 54 years’ worth of equipment for Nimrod, even though the plane has already been scrapped. The sums of money being wasted are not insignificant. The MOD spent £2.4 billion on non-explosive inventory, even though it already had five years’ worth of such items in stock—we spent £2.4 billion buying things when we already had five years’ worth of supplies. We are now trying to get rid of some—£1.4 billion-worth—of the stock that we bought by mistake. It is costing £277 million a year just to store the stock that we do not want, and which we should never have bought. That puts the saving that is being made by the decision on 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers in context.

My second question to the Minister is therefore why, when the National Audit Office report in June—the very time when this cut was being proposed—could identify savings of that order, officials in the Department could not do more to avoid the necessity of cutting this battalion.

[Mr Robathan]

My hon. Friend is making a good point about overstocking. We are bearing down on that enormously. He will understand that, not having been in government between 1997 and 2010, we did not order most of this kit. We are selling off the kit so that we have to spend less money on storage, and we are spending less money on unnecessary kit; but he will also understand that the armed forces need good equipment, especially given the ongoing situation in Afghanistan.

[Stephen Barclay]

I am willing to recognise the big strides that the Government have taken in making those savings. However, we are spending vast sums of money on kit of which we have five years of supplies. The Minister says that this is about equipping our troops better, but we are not addressing that point by buying a higher specification of kit if we are buying things that we do not need. That was one of the key findings of the National Audit Office report.

If Ministers are not convinced that more could be done on logistics and supplies, perhaps I could put this saving of about £25 million in the wider context of our defence procurement. Again, I am willing to acknowledge the huge strides that have been taken by Ministers to get to grips with procurement. However, the 15 largest defence projects have overspent their initial budgets by £6 billion. The saving from this cut is a fraction of 1% of that, although we cannot know exactly how much it is because we have not had the figure. It is a tiny amount, and yet it is hitting the front line—our fighting units.

The case that I put to colleagues today is that surely more could be done, notwithstanding the efforts that are being made, to increase the scale, intensity and speed of implementation of the savings in logistics, supply and procurement. This decision does not provide value for money. It is too modest, it uses flawed criteria and the scope of delivering savings elsewhere means that it would be a mistake for the Government to go ahead with it. That is reflected in the comments from Members from all parts of the House today.

I have never voted against my Government, but I support my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) and will do so if the motion is put to a vote. I hope that Ministers will listen to the strength of the arguments, look at the findings of the National Audit Office and deliver the required savings from other areas of the defence budget.

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[Mr Ellwood]

We did not call for a larger armed forces at the election itself. It was our intention. It is where we would like to go. When we made these announcements, we were not expecting Labour to have ruined the Treasury numbers, as it did.

As has been repeated again and again, Labour made a mess of something else. I refer to the madness of its procurement strategy, which wasted billions of pounds in overruns. The worst of it was delaying the carrier build by one year, which cost £1 billion alone. Given that the capitation cost of a brigade is £100 million, let us think how many battalions we could have saved. To take an operational perspective, for years our troops in Afghanistan were forced to use Snatch Land Rovers, but suddenly the last Government woke up to the fact that they were not adequate and there was a flurry of buying off the shelf. The Cougar, the Mastiff, the Ridgback—all these vehicles were purchased off the shelf, wasting huge sums of money, while our armed forces suffered on the front line. All those funding issues had a knock-on effect on the decisions we are debating today and the decisions for the future, not only on battalion and brigades, but on the order of battle.

I am an infanteer—I served in the Royal Green Jackets, another regiment that disappeared under the last Government—but I am also a national politician. We are all national politicians, and we must consider the capability of our entire armed forces—the demand to save ships; the demand to save planes, such as the Harrier, which has been debated by this House many times; the demand to save intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance capability; and, of course, the demand to save regiments, not least my own. As we have heard, the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers has an amazingly proud history, dating back to James II —I am sorry that the Father of the House is not here to confirm that—and it has had an impact not just in its own area, but right across Britain as a whole. When the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers was formed, it was given the most up-to-date weapon of the day, the fusil, which gave it its name, and in the first world war it had a total of 196 battalions in operation. How different the picture is today.

We have heard some powerful arguments, and I look forward to hearing what the Minister says in response to the support we have heard for the Fusiliers. However, I would also say to him—I hope he listens carefully to this proposal—that if it is the Government’s intention to reconfigure the balance of our armed forces between regular forces and the Territorial Army more towards the Australian and American models and to increase the size of Territorial Army units, and if it is also the Minister’s intention to decide to disband the 2nd Battalion, the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, then why not allow this fine battalion to configure immediately into a Territorial Army unit? I absolutely accept that that is not an ideal solution, but it would prevent that footprint in history and the contribution made by this amazing battalion from disappearing in their entirety.

[Mr Robathan]

My hon. Friend will know that the Territorial review is continuing. We have had the review and we are now looking at the details, but I assure him that we will look carefully at that proposal as we expand the Territorial Army, or the reserve.

[Mr Ellwood]

I am grateful to the Minister. I appreciate that that is not the solution that many hon. Members, on both sides of the House, are looking for, but if it is the Government’s intention to reduce the size of our battalions, my proposal would seem to be one way of maintaining the future prosperity and history of this wonderful regiment.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

We have heard some very heartfelt, passionate and emotional contributions today. I do not criticise hon. Members for that emotion in any way; indeed, I have a great deal of sympathy for many of the points that have been raised.

I would like first to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) on securing this debate, which has allowed so many people to contribute and make their points, which is very important in this House of Commons. I welcome this opportunity to explain the situation. We have come to these decisions, as has the Army, after a great deal of consideration and analysis. The British Army and the regiments concerned are now looking to get on with the difficult task of implementing the decisions, which, frankly, have not been palatable.

In May 2010, when we entered government, we faced a dire financial situation. A £38 billion black hole, possibly a great deal more—

[Mr Kevan Jones]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Robathan]

Of course I will give way, although I must point out that the hon. Gentleman had the opportunity to give way to me and would not do so, even though he had been told, on a piece of paper that I saw being slipped to him, that he could take as many interventions as he wanted.

[Mr Jones]

That is not what I said at all. It is interesting to hear what the Minister is saying. He talks about the £38 billion, which he has never explained before at the Dispatch Box, and he is now telling the House that the figure could be bigger. How much bigger?

[Mr Robathan]

The hon. Gentleman did not explain at all; he just said that he would not take any interventions. I can see the piece of paper there. Perhaps he would like to read what it says—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I can probably help the Minister on this. The hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) was under the impression that he was time-limited, which of course was not the case. That was not down to any information that he had at the time; it was while he was speaking that he believed he was time-limited. The Minister will have a slightly longer time. Perhaps we can sort this out across the Dispatch Box.

[Mr Robathan]

Of course, Madam Deputy Speaker.

The hon. Gentleman knows that the previous Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), left a note saying that there was no money, and there is no money. We are working on producing a detailed analysis of the money, which will be made available to the Defence Committee at some stage. I am not quite sure where we have got to on that.

[Mr Jones]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Robathan]

Not for a third time. He would not give way even once. Can we crack on?

We have to deal with that hole in the budget, and the hole in the defence budget, if we want to put the defence of this nation on a sound and sustainable footing—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) chunters away, but we cannot spend money that we do not have.

[Mr Jones]

You don’t even know how much money you’ve got.

[Mr Robathan]

As hon. Members will know from statements made by the Secretary of State for Defence—

[Mr Jones]

You’re making it up.

[Mr Robathan]

Have you finished?

As hon. Members will know from statements made by the Secretary of State for Defence, the Ministry of Defence is now—for the first time I can remember—living within its means, and we can plan for the future with a much greater degree of certainty than was previously the case.

[Mr Jones]

I find what the Minister is saying completely remarkable. He has just told us that he cannot explain the £38 billion. He has also told us that the figure could be bigger, and he is now saying that the defence budget is in balance. If he did not know how big the hole was in the first place, how the hell can he now claim that the budget is in balance? That is complete, incoherent nonsense.

[Mr Robathan]

I do not think that this debate should be argued on party political grounds—

[Mr Jones]

You started it.

[Mr Robathan]

I regret very much the attitude of the hon. Gentleman. Others will look at the debate and decide whether he started it, or whether we did. Frankly, it is pathetic and childish to argue in such a way.

[Graham Stringer]

I sympathise with the Minister; as an ex-military person, he must be in an uncomfortable and lonely position. However, rather than having a debate about the nation’s finances, which would be more appropriate at another time, will he respond to the points that have been made on both sides of the House? What is his argument against the fact that the decision to get rid of the battalion was made on political grounds, and not on military grounds? That is the substantial point of the debate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Robathan]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. As it happens, I have a great regard for him, and I do not wish this to be a party political debate. I wish to talk about the future of the 2nd Battalion, the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, which has a very proud history.

We are now living within our means, and we have a fully funded equipment programme and affordable armed forces. Reaching that position has required us to make hard, painful choices, which have included reducing the size of the regular Army. I have always said—I have heard it repeated two or three times in this debate—that the first duty of Government is the defence of the realm. Our mission endures, and it is to protect our country and its values and interests abroad and at home. To do this, we must meet the complex range of threats and challenges in a rapidly changing world. We must adapt to stay ahead and ensure that our people have what they need in order to do what we ask of them.

[Mr Baron]

I am pleased that the debate is returning to the substance of the motion about the 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. The Minister said that detailed analysis was undertaken to come to the basic decision to axe 2RRF. Will he explain the basis of that analysis, as the Secretary of State’s answers to written parliamentary questions make it very clear that other battalions had far worse recruitment and retention figures than the 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers? On what basis, then, was this analysis undertaken?

[Mr Robathan]

If I may, I will cover my hon. Friend’s points as they were made in his speech. My responses are written down here, and it is better that I give him a detailed analysis rather than provide one off the top of my head.

While our armed forces might be smaller than before, they will still be able to reach across the world and operate across the full range of capabilities. We are reducing the size of the regular armed forces, but we are increasing the reserves, including an integrated element of the total land force of 120,000, with an extra £1.8 billion of investment in reserves, training and equipment.

The Army has been both pragmatic and imaginative in responding to this very real challenge. The blueprint was decided upon by the Army and announced by the Defence Secretary on 5 July. This project we call Army 2020. For the first time, this provides a pathway to a fully integrated Army of regular and reserve forces that will be configured for high-end conflict, rapid reaction, UK engagement and upstream conflict prevention.

[Stephen Barclay]

Will my right hon. Friend address the point that the value of the defence inventory is currently £40.3 billion? Just this June, the National Audit Office said:

“the Department is spending money on unnecessary levels of stock, which could be spent elsewhere in government.”

We are talking about such a modest sum of money; can it not be found elsewhere?

[Mr Robathan]

I have to confess to my hon. Friend that I do not deal with procurement measures. We have a defence reform project going on, which I think he will find addresses his point. I will ensure that he receives a letter from the Minister for Defence Equipment, Support and Technology, setting out a proper response.

I think it would be better if we stuck with the 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, because that is what people have come to speak about. Today, we have heard arguments about the withdrawal of 2RRF from the Army’s order of battle. Neither my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State nor I take any pleasure in the removal of any unit from the Army. I can assure hon. Members that we did not come into politics to reduce our armed forces. There is not a battalion or regiment in the current order of battle that does not have a proud history and significant battle honours. If, however, we are to create an affordable and balanced Army offering serious military capability into the future, a small number of those proud units and battalions will have to be withdrawn from the line.

My hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay has been made aware of the reasons behind the Army Board’s decisions—and they were Army Board decisions, endorsed by Ministers. I would like to take this opportunity to reiterate these reasons for the benefit of the House.

[Mr Baron]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Robathan]

I am about to answer my hon. Friend’s questions; he might like to intervene again later.

In redesigning the future Army, it was decided that five fewer regular infantry battalions were required than are currently in the order of battle. In deciding which of the current 36 battalions to withdraw, the Army—I repeat, the Army—applied a number of criteria. The first was to maintain a regimental system that was largely regionally aligned. The second was to ensure the sustainability of regiments according to the projected regional supply of recruits in the 2020 time frame. The third was to ensure proportionality of outcome across the infantry, with no cap badge deletions and with no regiment losing more than one battalion.

Another key criterion, which Members who have served in the Army will understand, was to balance the whole infantry structure to maintain a variety of roles and parity of opportunity of experience for officers and soldiers. It was also important to take account of previous decisions on mergers and deletions, as well as historical manning performance. Finally, the Army wanted those who are currently serving to see this as fair and equitable. After all, it is those who are serving now, and those who are seeking to join the Army, who will make the change happen.

Those criteria were determined by the Chief of the General Staff and by General Carter, who has led the Army 2020 review. After a period of consultation with Ministers, they constructed an objective, fair and transparent process that included the criteria, applying the military logic to which my hon. Friend referred.

[Mr Baron]

I appreciate the Minister’s generosity in giving way. Let me make it clear for the record that I know him well enough to be aware that he takes no pleasure in announcing these cuts. I do not doubt that at all: it is not what we are questioning. However, if there have to be cuts—and I personally think that the Government’s priorities are wrong; I think that such cuts should be made outside the MOD budget—they should be based on military logic, not on political calculation that is designed to save more poorly recruited Scottish battalions north of the border.

In answers given to me by the Secretary of State and in answers to written parliamentary questions, it has been confirmed—confirmed in writing by the Secretary of State—that the five least sustainable battalions will be two from the Royal Regiment of Scotland, one from the Yorkshire Regiment, one from the Mercian Regiment and one from the Royal Welsh Regiment. That is military logic, as applied in a letter to me from the Secretary of State.

[Mr Robathan]

As I have said, one of the criteria was that no regiment should lose more than one battalion. I shall explain shortly why the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers came into the frame.

[Dan Byles]

The Minister is an old military hand himself, so he will know the phrase “situating the estimate”. Let me explain for the benefit of those who are not military that it means setting the parameters deliberately in order to achieve the desired outcome. Does the Minister not recognise that there is a great deal of concern among Members in all parts of the House who believe that that is what has happened in this instance?

[Mr Robathan]

I do recall the phrase, and that is not what has happened.

Let me now explain in some detail how the application of the criteria that I listed earlier led us to the outcome announced on 5 July. Some of this may sound a little dry, but it is important for the House to understand the care that was taken in reaching these decisions.

Drawing on demographic data for the age cohort across the United Kingdom from which infantry recruits are drawn—the 15-to-29 age group, according to the way in which the Office for National Statistics segments the population—and taking account of historical trends in terms of the percentage of that cohort who were likely to join the Army, an assessment was made of which regiments were likely to be the least sustainable in the future in their current configuration. That work also included a comparison of each regiment’s historical outflow so that the likely recruiting requirement could be determined. On that basis, the Army’s analysis showed that the regiments likely to be the least sustainable in future were the Royal Regiment of Scotland, the Yorkshire Regiment, the Mercian Regiment, and the Royal Welsh Regiment. It was therefore decided to move one battalion from each of those regiments.

After the removal of the four battalions, and given the criterion that there should be no cap badge deletions and no regiment should lose more than one battalion, the method of predicting future sustainability, and therefore which battalion should be added to the four whose future had already been decided, became less statistically discerning. To put it another way, it was impossible to distinguish between a number of regiments on the basis of the future sustainability criterion alone.

[Sir Alan Beith]

In his letter to me, the Minister used those figures and there was a prediction that the Royal Regiment of Scotland would be one and three quarter battalions short on sustainability in the future. When we compare the risk to operability of that level of difficulty with the predictions for the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, do we not find that the military logic is overpowering?

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[Mr Robathan]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a very good point. However, in these difficult decisions, certain criteria were applied, one of which was that there should be only one battalion taken away from each regiment. That is what, I fear, trumped the good point that he makes.

[Patrick Mercer]

I am conscious that the Minister finds this an exceedingly painful process, but can he explain something? We were told a few years ago that it was deeply undesirable for regiments to continue as one-battalion organisations, for reasons relating to the career structures and all sorts of military logic, which I did not necessarily agree with. How was it that just a few years ago new regiments were invented and curious names were developed, yet now, a short time later, all of that is being stood on its head?

[Mr Robathan]

I do not think that I made that point, because I was not the person involved at the time. Since my hon. Friend’s time in the armed forces, and mine, people have moved a great deal more between divisions and between larger regiments. Where we are talking about a one-battalion regiment in a division, people cross over between the regiments in the division. That is certainly happening much more than it used to.

Determining the fifth battalion to be withdrawn required the application of criteria that went wider than demographics. Remembering the imperative of having no regiment losing more than one battalion, the Army discounted those regiments that were already losing a battalion, such as the Royal Scots, and those which were single-battalion regiments. That meant that the choice came down to a battalion from the Princess of Wales’s Royal Regiment, the Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment, the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, the Royal Anglian Regiment or The Rifles—the Parachute Regiment was excluded on the grounds of its specific role. Taking account of the need to maintain equity of opportunity across the infantry divisions, the Army decided—I stress that it was the Army that decided this—that it should be the Queen’s Division that lost a battalion. That was because it had six battalions whereas other divisions would be left with only four or five. Taking account of historical manning performance—since the previous reorganisation of the infantry, in 2007, the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers has had average undermanning of 13.3%—and the fact that the Fusiliers is a regiment with two battalions, it was considered the most appropriate from within the Queen’s Division from which to withdraw a battalion.

I would like to pay tribute to the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. It has a proud history and it will continue as a regiment with a proud history. It has served in every major campaign since 1674, up to and including Afghanistan. I have visited the regimental museum and the headquarters in the Tower of London with my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay—in fact, I went back only last month. I know the history of this proud regiment.

As some in this Chamber may know, in Northern Ireland Second Lieutenant Winthrop devised a clever way of finding hidden caches. I remember being taught this in Northern Ireland, and it allowed us to find hidden IRA weapons. He was a Fusilier, and that is someone more recently who influenced military thinking. I served with the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers in the first Gulf war, and my mother’s uncle was killed in 1916 while serving in the Fusiliers. I mention that because we all hugely respect the past and present members of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. I fully understand that this decision came as a great disappointment to those serving with the regiment and those, such as my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay, with connections to it.

[Mr Baron]

I welcome the Minister’s warm words, but I suggest to him that we do not just want warm words—we want action. Clearly he is basing his whole argument on the idea that regimental losses should be limited to one battalion. That is exceptionally questionable, and it is a complete about-turn on the thinking of the reorganisation that took place only six years ago, when four cap badges and six battalions were amalgamated into larger regiments. Can he not understand that it is far more disruptive for a two-battalion regiment—a well-recruited one—to lose one battalion than it is for a five-battalion regiment that has trouble sustaining two battalions, as has been admitted by the MOD, to maintain those two battalions? Can he not see the logic here? Can he not see why the MOD’s limitation of one battalion loss per regiment is so illogical?

[Mr Robathan]

My hon. Friend is an intelligent person, but I have made the point several times that the Army decided that it wanted to withdraw only one battalion from each regiment, and that is why this decision was reached.

I know that the decision is a great disappointment to many people, but it was simply not possible to save every unit, given the financial situation in which we found ourselves. I hope that what I have explained is a fair, transparent and equitable process, which produced the right outcome, in difficult circumstances, for the Army. The MOD has now placed in the Library of the House the detailed data the Army used in reaching its decision on which battalions to remove from the order of battle.

I think I have dealt with the question of Scotland. We did not take another battalion out of the Royal Scots, because that would have been to the detriment of the criterion that only one battalion should be taken from each regiment. My hon. Friend and others have suggested that the decisions were not taken on wholly military grounds and that a degree of political influence was brought to bear that has resulted in English regiments “losing out”—their words—to the Royal Regiment of Scotland, but the advice from the Chief of the General Staff and his Army 2020 team was clear: the effect on the regimental structure and the wider community of losing more than one battalion would magnify the impact of any change and thus impact on the subsequent healing process. I hope that that advice and the rest of the objective criteria the Army applied to the review will put minds at rest. As the Government have made clear on a number of occasions, we are making no plans on the basis of an independent Scotland, as we firmly believe—a belief that I know is shared on both sides of the House—that the majority of Scottish people will continue to support the Union in any referendum.

Cap badges and uniforms are important, but hon. Members should realise that they evolve and change over the years, and indeed have done so during our lifetimes. I have worn many different cap badges and I believe that people adapt very quickly and are proud of the regiments and the units in which they serve. I assure all hon. Members here today that we are aware of the justifiably fierce pride and loyalty felt by local communities to their locally recruited battalions, wherever that might be across the UK.

I come back to the real reason behind the reductions, which is the fiscal mess we inherited in 2010. The process has been painful for the Government. I reiterate: no Defence Minister came into government to reduce our armed forces. However, balancing the black hole inherited from the previous Government required difficult decisions to reach our current more balanced and affordable position. The Army—and it is the Army—has played an intelligent and constructive part in the exercise and has had to make some very tough decisions, but it is never possible to make such significant changes without causing some pain somewhere. The plan that has been announced, while difficult for some to accept, offers a balanced and fair way to maintain a robust regimental system into the future.

I reiterate that the Fusiliers—the proud Royal Regiment of Fusiliers—will go on as a regiment. We are not abolishing the Fusiliers, as some seem to have implied. I know that the Army as a whole understands that and is now getting on with implementing the new structures in the positive and pragmatic way that anybody who knows the Army would expect. My sincere hope is that hon. Members, and in particular my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay, who instigated this debate, can now allow the Army to do so.