Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Robathan Excerpts(14 years, 5 months ago)
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Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
2. What estimate he has made of the number of armed forces personnel and their dependants who will be affected by proposed changes to the uprating of armed forces pensions; and if he will make a statement.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)
The change in the future uprating of public service pensions to the consumer prices index applies to all new pensions coming into payment, those pensions currently in payment and to the future uprating of deferred pension rights. CPI is deemed more appropriate than the retail prices index because the Bank of England uses it to measure inflation and it is an internationally standard measure. We understand the concerns that have been raised about this matter, but such is the scale of the economic problems that we inherited that no part of society—not even the armed forces—can be fully exempt from the need to find ways to reduce the budget deficit.
Mr Hanson
I thank the Minister for that answer. He will be aware that the change to CPI will mean a lower pension for those currently on one, which will be particularly difficult for service personnel who are retiring early because of grievous injuries caused in conflicts we are currently undertaking. Will he confirm to the House whether the change is intended to be temporary for the purposes of deficit reduction, or whether he intends to short-change our personnel on a permanent basis?
Mr Robathan
We most certainly do care about those whose pensions may be affected. In April 2010, RPI was less than CPI—it was actually negative—so RPI is not always better than CPI for pension uprating. The move is intended to be permanent because it will go forward for all public sector pensions and will be how public sector pensions will be determined in the future. If the Opposition wish to change that, perhaps they should announce now that they will change all public pensions back to RPI, should they ever—God forbid—be re-elected to office.
Mr Jim Murphy (East Renfrewshire) (Lab)
There is increasing anger about this policy, and that has now been joined and taken up brilliantly in a campaign by the Daily Mirror. Yet the Government will not say how much the move will save them; they will not admit that it could cost a young Afghan war widow £750,000 in payments; and they have not explained that although the deficit is temporary, this cut is permanent. I invite the right hon. Gentleman to offer a direct answer to a direct question: given that, as we now know, this is not about deficit reduction, has he consulted the armed forces families federations, and what have they told him about this permanent cut?
Mr Robathan
I shall be meeting the armed forces families federations in the very near future. However, I have been reading an article by the right hon. Gentleman in which he said that his pride in the armed forces was “lined with anger”—an interesting use of English! I was proud of the armed forces throughout the 18 years I served, and I, too, am angry—I am angry that we are faced with a financial situation that is damaging this country and our armed forces.
Richard Harrington (Watford) (Con)
3. What assessment he has made of Iran’s potential nuclear weapons capability; and if he will make a statement.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
5. What his policy is on the provision of benefits to veterans; and if he will make a statement.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)
Veterans who are injured as a result of their service before 6 April 2005 can apply for compensation in the form of a war pension. For those whose disablement affects their ability to work, additional provision may be made in the form of supplementary allowances, paid in addition to the war pension.
Mr Robathan
The hon. Gentleman ought to discuss that matter with his own Front-Bench team, as it was the last Government who appealed against the ruling in favour of the atomic war veterans—
Mr Robathan
Absolutely. As the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) will know, the courts have now decided in favour of the Government. I pay tribute to those who took part in the tests many years ago, but it was about 60-odd years ago and I am afraid that the courts have found that there is no causal link whatever between many of the disabilities and illnesses suffered and exposure to any radiation.
Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con)
Will the Minister expand a little on his reply in respect of the long-term help that veterans will receive. He has referred to the short-term help, but many of the injured veteran personnel in my Devizes constituency are concerned about where the support will be in 20 or 25 years’ time.
Mr Robathan
My hon. Friend raises a very important issue. Injured personnel have a high profile and the support of the country at the moment, but in 15, 20 or 30 years’ time, it might be rather different. We are putting in place a whole raft of initiatives. I pay tribute to the last Government, who put a lot of it together. We supported the personnel recovery centre, among others, and there will be such a centre in Tidworth. God willing, we look forward to opening it in the near future.
Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op)
The Deputy Prime Minister announced a “health for heroes” scheme for veterans in a newspaper article on 23 January. How much funding has the Ministry of Defence dedicated to this scheme?
Mr Robathan
This is not actually an MOD but a Department of Health measure. As I understand it, the whole mental health package is worth £400 million and it will be announced in April. Some part of it will go towards assistance with mental health problems among members of the armed forces. We already provide a great deal of support to those with mental health problems, not least through the “Fighting Fit” report of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison).
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
7. What his policy is on the use of individual and direct offset agreements in defence contracts.
Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab)
14. What assessment he has made of the effect on armed forces pensions of proposed changes to indexation arrangements for public sector pensions.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)
No robust assessment of the kind requested can be made as future movements of the retail price index and consumer price index are not known. To use the current 2010 rate as the basis for any forecast would give an unreliable representation of future payments in the long term as these rates will fluctuate over time.
Gregg McClymont
I thank the Minister for his answer, but does he not agree that most studies suggest that CPI produces a higher pension than RPI? Does that not count as a cut in military and service personnel pensions?
Mr Robathan
If I may gently prod the hon. Gentleman, he has it the wrong way round: RPI is more likely to produce a higher pension than CPI, which is not what he said. As I pointed out to the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), there was no upgrading of pensions at all in April 2010 because RPI was negative in 2009, and that is the way things are. It was a hard decision, but we believe that it is in the best interests of the country and of the armed forces as a whole.
Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)
15. What estimate his Department has made of the cost to the public purse of returning British troops from Germany (a) between 2010 and 2015 and (b) between 2015 and 2020; and if he will make a statement.
Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)
17. What recent discussions he has had on civilian personnel reductions in his Department.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)
I have regular discussions, as does my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, on civilian reductions. There is also an ongoing dialogue between officials and the recognised departmental trade unions over the implementation of the civilian reductions.
Luciana Berger
I thank the Minister for that response. Can he kindly outline which units in the Ministry of Defence he anticipates the 25,000 job losses announced in the strategic defence and security review will come from? If he cannot say now, can he outline when he will be able to end the uncertainty?
Mr Robathan
That is a perfectly reasonable question from the hon. Lady, but I am afraid I cannot say now. There are two things that I should say, however: first, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I are meeting the trades unions about those reductions late in February; and secondly, the permanent secretary to the MOD announced on Friday night—released, therefore, to most people this morning—the forthcoming launch of the voluntary early release scheme. I am sure that the full text will be in the Library.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)
T5. The Big Lottery Fund has recently extended the deadline for the excellent Heroes Return 2 scheme, administered from Newcastle, that provides funding to help veterans and their families take part in commemorative visits, either in the UK or abroad. Like many right hon. and hon. Members, I have been encouraging my constituents to take advantage of the scheme. Will the Minister outline what support he and his colleagues are providing to encourage uptake of that funding?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)
We certainly support the scheme, which I understand is largely run by the Royal British Legion, although I do not have the details at my fingertips. It is an excellent scheme. We support the national lottery, the Royal British Legion and the whole programme.
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
T7. Given the Government’s desire to improve armed forces accommodation and obtain greater value for money for the taxpayer, does the Minister accept that useful lessons can be learned from the Canadian Government’s example of outsourcing the management of armed forces housing, a policy that produced savings and improvements to accommodation facilities?
Mr Robathan
My hon. Friend is right. We are looking at every option as to how we can make housing for our troops more efficient. We shall certainly look at what my hon. Friend has mentioned as well; if he wants to make a submission, he is very welcome so to do.
Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)
The Ministry of Defence is aware that Moray is the most defence-dependent community in the UK and uniquely faces the threat of a double RAF base closure. Does the Secretary of State understand the damage that the delayed basing announcement is having on the economy of the north of Scotland? Why is there a delay in the announcement in the first place, given that the RAF made its basing recommendation at the end of last year?
Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab)
The Health Protection Agency has said that servicemen present during atomic bomb tests more than 50 years ago have since been plagued with cancers and rare medical conditions. Did the Minister see reports in the media yesterday that the MOD has ignored urgent calls for research into the health of nuclear test veterans, and will he agree to have the DNA of test veterans studied as a matter of urgency?
Mr Robathan
There have been many studies into the health of those who witnessed the explosions on Christmas Island, and they have concluded that those who witnessed the explosions have not suffered greater health problems than others. I stand by the clinical and legal position on that, as did the previous Government, whom the hon. Gentleman would presumably like to say he supports.
Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)
Has the Secretary of State assessed the state of rehabilitation services for members of the armed forces who have received trauma care, and who are living with complex, life-changing injuries? Will he accept representations from me on behalf of a constituent?
Mr Robathan
I would be happy to accept representations. The trauma care given by the medical services in the armed forces is excellent. There is a 25% chance of survival, whereas there is only a 6% chance of survival in the national health service. The Secretary of State for Health and I went to Birmingham 10 days ago for the opening of the new Surgical Reconstruction and Microbiology research centre at the Queen Elizabeth hospital. That is an excellent facility that leads the way in trauma care in this country.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
Given that the Department is currently holding a consultation on how to decommission nuclear submarines, will the Secretary of State give my constituents a cast-iron guarantee that not a single bolt will be taken out of those submarines until a waste route has been identified and, crucially, established?
Armed Forces Allowances
Lord Robathan Excerpts(14 years, 5 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)
As part of the strategic defence and security review, the Government announced that the amount spent by the Ministry of Defence (MOD) each year on personnel allowances would be reduced by over £300 million. Reductions to civil service allowances will necessarily be dealt with separately to those affecting the armed forces. I am now able to detail the changes to armed forces allowances, which will achieve a reduction in spend of some £250 million by financial year 2014-15.
A strong economy is a national security imperative, and the Government conducted the strategic defence and security review (SDSR) against the background of a dire fiscal situation, which requires difficult decisions on reducing public spending. Proper support to our service personnel is equally essential. An appropriate set of allowances is an important element of that support, and will remain so in the future. However, it cannot be immune from careful scrutiny to ensure that it remains appropriate. While reductions in this area will never be welcome, the package of changes which we are introducing has been developed in full consultation with the service chiefs of staff and represents the best balance between affordability and fairness.
Service personnel are entitled to appropriate notice of changes to allowances, and there will be a minimum of three months notice before any alterations which affect those currently serving take effect. In specific cases the notice will be longer (up to 12 months).
The changes affect the following allowances:
Incidental Expenses Allowance—This a contribution to minor expenditure incurred during temporary duty involving overnight absence; it is paid at a flat rate of £5 per day. In future this allowance will only be paid to personnel in hospital. All personnel will continue, as now, to be reimbursed for the actual costs of travel, food and accommodation.
Local Overseas Allowance—This allowance contributes towards the cost of living, when service personnel are required to serve overseas. We will be modernising the way in which the allowance operates by re-evaluating the items used to construct it, and by reducing the number of rank-based bands from 13 to three. In view of the significant impact of these changes on some service personnel and their families, they will be staged over two years.
Food and Incidentals Allowance—This is a contribution to the additional costs which are incurred by unmarried service personnel and those serving unaccompanied, if they do not have access to service accommodation or messes. In future the allowance will be based on more realistic assumptions and a reassessment of the extra costs incurred. As a result the allowance will reduce from £12.41 to £8.50 per day.
Living out Supplemented Rates of Local Overseas Allowance—This allowance achieves the same aims as food and incidentals allowance but for personnel based abroad. The allowance has been removed and replaced with food and incidentals allowance paid in local currency.
Home to Duty Travel—This assists service personnel with the cost of daily travel between their home and place of duty. At present, individuals are responsible for the first three miles of their journey. In future, this will increase to nine miles, even when they have no choice in the location of either home or duty premises. This change will be introduced over a period of three years to mitigate the affect on individuals.
Recruitment and Retention Allowance (London)—This allowance is designed to encourage personnel to serve in London. Since changes to this allowance would have the greatest impact on those on the lowest salaries, the allowance will be maintained for all those of the rank of corporal and below. For all others it will be removed. To allow adequate preparation for this change, it will not be introduced until 2012.
Disturbance Allowance—This flat-rate allowance was intended to compensate for the necessary additional expenses that arise when service personnel are required to move to take up new assignments. In practice, many significant costs associated with moving (removals, storage etc) are covered through other allowances. It is therefore appropriate to reduce the value of this allowance by 10%. For those with children, the additional elements previously paid will be reduced by 53%.
Daily Subsistence—This allowance reimburses actual allowable subsistence expenditure. We have reduced the maximum rate payable to £25 per day, in line with the rates paid by other Government Departments, and made similar percentage reductions in overseas rates.
Get You Home (Early Years)—This allowance is designed to enable junior members of the services to maintain links with close family as they adjust to service life by funding four journeys to the family home per year. In future it will be available only to those undergoing initial training and for all personnel under the age of 18.
Get You Home (Seagoers)—This allowance is designed to support retention of seagoing personnel by reducing the impact of routine separation. The current provision of 12 journeys to the individual’s place of residence will be reduced to 10.
Motor Mileage Allowance—There are three rates of motor mileage allowance currently in use. These will be unified to a single rate of 25p per mile, in line with the HMRC basic rate.
Commitment Bonus—Commitment bonuses are paid at specified career points, and reward completed service. Due to current service manning levels and the redundancy programme we announced in the SDSR we have decided to reduce the value of these bonuses by 50% for all new entrants, implemented with immediate effect.
Specialist Pay (Reserve Banding)—Specialist pay is paid to service personnel with specialist skills in order to help recruit and retain them. Reserve banding is used to facilitate a gradual reduction in specialist pay when individuals are in positions not requiring specialist skills. The period of gradual reduction has been changed from six years to three, and will cease after the recipient has spent three years out of specialist assignments. Additionally, we will remove specialist pay from those who give notice of resignation. We will not implement this change until 2012. Outwith these changes, we have asked the armed forces pay review body to review all specialist pay as part of its 2011 programme of work.
In addition to the changes described above, we have made alterations to a number of other smaller allowances, to simplify the allowance system and contribute to the reductions in our allowance expenditure.
Ex-servicemen: Radiation Exposure
Lord Robathan Excerpts(14 years, 5 months ago)
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Chris Evans
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what benchmarking assessment his Department has made of the provisions for nuclear test veteran compensation under the US Radiation Exposure Compensation Act.
[Official Report, 8 December 2010, Vol. 520, c. 281W.]
Letter of correction from Mr Andrew Robathan:
An error has been identified in the written answer given to the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) on 8 December 2010.
The full answer given was as follows:
Mr Robathan
No benchmarking has taken place.
In the United Kingdom evidence was provided in the National Radiological Protection Board (NRPB) reports of the three follow-up studies on the health of over 20,000 nuclear test participants and a matched group of military controls. For the United States atomic veterans no comparable large scale epidemiological US study was carried out.
The Ministry of Defence also provides pensions automatically to nuclear test veterans who have one of a list of 22 cancers presumed to be causally linked to service. For other cancers, claims may be accepted on the basis of calculated radiation exposure assessment. In the US, the Radiation Exposure Compensation Act (RECA) will pay a one time lump sum of 75,000 US dollars for cancers on their own list.
The correct answer should have been:
Mr Robathan
No benchmarking has taken place.
In the United Kingdom evidence was provided in the National Radiological Protection Board (NRPB) reports of the three follow-up studies on the health of over 20,000 nuclear test participants and a matched group of military controls. For the United States atomic veterans no comparable large scale epidemiological US study was carried out.
The US Department for Veterans Affairs provides pensions automatically to nuclear test veterans who have one of a list of 22 cancers presumed to be causally linked to service. For other cancers, claims may be accepted on the basis of calculated radiation exposure assessment. In the US, the Radiation Exposure Compensation Act (RECA) will pay a one time lump sum of 75,000 US dollars for cancers on their own list.
Armed Forces Bill
Lord Robathan Excerpts(14 years, 5 months ago)
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Mr Llwyd
I agree entirely with those comments, because we are all equal before the law. However, if taking that information helps to address what is a massive problem, it should be done. The probation service in Cheshire and north Wales is also doing that, and that is being led by ex-service people. No prejudice is intended at any stage.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)
The hon. Gentleman raises an extremely important topic, and one that should not be taken lightly. I wonder whether he has read the analysis in the Defence Analytical Services and Advice report of the number of former service personnel who are in prison. It suggests not that they are over-represented, but the contrary.
Mr Robathan
DASA’s initial finding was that the figure was about 3%, but after it analysed everybody in prison who had said that they were formerly in the armed forces, it came up with a figure of approximately 3.5% of the prison population who were ex-services. In contrast, more than 7% of the general population have been in the services.
Mr Llwyd
Yes, but if I remember rightly, the methodology of that particular report was somewhat questionable. [Interruption.] May I finish my point? The reservists were not included, nor were people under 18 or women who had served in the Army. I believe that one other category of people was excluded—there were four such categories.
Thomas Docherty
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman who, as ever, shows his fancy footwork, blaming both his Government and the previous Conservative Government. I must agree that his Government are not doing enough to support housing.
Opposition Members are deeply concerned that although the Ministry of Defence is happy to place new onuses on local authorities and the NHS, the one group of people that should not have statutory responsibilities according to the MOD is, funnily enough, the MOD. By that rather large omission, clause 2, which covers the charter, is in effect toothless. The organisation that, more than any other, has responsibility for the welfare of our service personnel, their families and our veterans is, of course, the MOD. When he replies to the debate later this evening, I hope that the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the right hon. Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan) will assure Labour Members that the MOD will re-examine that glaring omission.
The hon. Member for Corby (Ms Bagshawe) and others often accuse Labour Members of not coming up with funding solutions to meet such commitments. I will indulge her by providing a simple example of where we can find more than £100 million, which could be put into accommodation for service personnel. According to the MOD, we spend—before she jumps to her feet, I accept that the previous Government did not do enough to tackle this issue—£110 million on private school fees for the children of service personnel. Almost half that money—some 40%—goes to officers in the top ranks of lieutenant-colonel and above, who are effectively the top brass, while only 10% goes to the ranks of staff sergeant and below. It is, in effect, a subsidy for public schools.
Mr Robathan
I want to shoot this canard, fox or whatever you like. People in junior ranks, both officers and non-commissioned officers, tend to be younger. Guess what? They do not have children who want to go to such schools. In fact, there are private soldiers whose children go to private schools, and there are junior officers whose children go to private schools. They are not at home, and they need the continuity of education provided by that allowance.
Thomas Docherty
I thank the Minister for spelling out his position. This evening, I have tabled a written question to clarify how many of the service personnel who receive the £110 million subsidy—the schools get the money—are serving overseas. One of our concerns is that those officers are on not two or three-year furloughs overseas but six-month deployments. The MOD is, in effect, providing a ring-fenced sum of money for public schools, which is disappointing at a time when we are seeing job losses in both the armed forces themselves and in companies such as British Aerospace. When the MOD made cuts, it did not take a penny out of the continuity of education allowance, and that decision should be re-examined.
Thomas Docherty
I shall clear that up before giving way to the Minister: if the argument for spending £110 million a year on public schools is based on soldiers being posted for six months to Afghanistan before returning to Britain, it is not an acceptable use of public money.
Mr Robathan
As the hon. Gentleman may know, we are tightening up the rules on the continuity of education allowance. If he would like to come along to the MOD and meet them, I can introduce him to people who will tell him, as they tell me, that their children have changed schools as many as four times in five years, which is not good for continuity of education or for keeping good personnel in the armed forces.
Thomas Docherty
I am grateful to the Minister for his offer to meet me to discuss the matter outside the House, which I shall certainly take up. I will not labour the point for much longer, because other hon. Members want to speak. As we move to withdrawing troops from Germany in 2015—perhaps it will be slightly later, if the MOD does not get its timetable right—it is the right time to consider scrapping or phasing out the continuity of education allowance.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)
I am grateful to the many hon. Members who have participated in the debate. After hearing the rather fierce winding-up speech by the shadow Minister, I point out that two Labour Back Benchers participated in the debate and that substantially more Conservative Back Benchers took part, which shows how much interest there has been in the House.
Mr Robathan
If the right hon. Gentleman were any good at maths, he would work out that one Liberal means that at least five Labour Back Benchers should have participated.
Leaving that to one side and returning to the Bill, the Government are required to introduce an Armed Forces Bill every five years, because those Bills provide the legal basis for the armed forces and for their discipline. Five years ago, the Armed Forces Act 2006 established a single system of service law, which applies to all members of the armed forces wherever they are serving in the world. It was a significant piece of legislation. The Bill that we are considering today is much smaller, and much of it was implemented under the previous Government. We are, in fact, pursuing the policies that the previous Government introduced, so I was particularly saddened by the shadow Secretary of State’s extraordinary speech. [Interruption.] The term that applies to the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) is “chuntering”.
The covenant has engendered a great deal of discussion in the debate, and we are fulfilling the Prime Minister’s pledge to put the matter on a statutory basis in this Bill. Every year, there will be a report on the covenant, which the House may wish to discuss. Returning to the hon. Members who have spoken, my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Milton Keynes North (Mark Lancaster), who is an extremely sensible friend, made some interesting points. He asked about the air bridge, which we are working on. Because, like me, he has travelled on it and been delayed on it, he knows that part of the problem is the age of the aircraft. He asked whether we will add days lost on rest and recuperation to post-tour leave, which is now our policy and is happening already.
My hon. Friend gave his view, which comes from serving in the Territorial Army, on medals. He also mentioned reservists. I agree with him entirely that support for such servicemen who return from operational tours is difficult. I pay tribute to those whose day job is not serving in the armed forces but who go out on operational tours and do excellent work helping our regular armed forces, and I pay tribute to their families, too.
Turning to the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd)—[Interruption.] I think that I am more Welsh than the hon. Member for Rhondda.
Mr Robathan
If it is the case that the hon. Gentleman is, in fact, Welsh, contrary to all expectations and signs, of course I withdraw the remark.
The armed forces are under-represented in the prison population. I am sure that the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd did not mean to do this, but it is important that we do not patronise our soldiers, sailors and airmen, who are more law-abiding than most. Of course some of them go to prison, but we are talking about responsible adults, some of whom commit crimes. Interestingly, the chances of being in prison if one has been in the armed forces are considerably less than if one has not. Our armed forces members want to be treated as responsible adults and not as victims.
I thank my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison)—he is a doctor and he is very gallant—for his extremely important report “Fighting Fit”. He asked whether we should call the armed forces covenant the military covenant in the Bill and I shall look into that. There is a legal issue involved, but I can certainly say that the covenant report will not be a tick-box exercise.
The very Welsh hon. Member for Rhondda was particularly keen on armed forces members from Wales being able to serve in Wales, but my experience of young people—both those going into the armed forces and those going to university—is that they often want to get away from their home environment. I have not heard many complaints about this before and I think they might not wish to be close to home. In my period in the armed forces, a very long time ago, I spent a disproportionate amount of my time training in Wales—in the Brecon Beacons at Sennybridge, in Snowdonia and in other places. The hon. Gentleman was very disparaging about Sennybridge, but I rather liked it.
The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) referred to the system of having a Bill every five years as technical, but I disagree entirely. I notice that he read history, but I do not know whether he got his history degree.
Mr Robathan
There is a lot of that going on.
This is not a technical Bill: it is incredibly important. Those of us who know the history of the Bill of Rights 1689 know that it is incredibly important to have parliamentary authority for the armed forces. That remains as true today as it was more than 300 years ago; that is why we have a democracy. The hon. Gentleman then blamed the Government for the poor housing, which I thought slightly strange. He said that “the money was put in place for sorting out the housing,” but I think that might have been part of the £38 billion that we could not find when we came into office.
The hon. Gentleman then spent a long time showing his prejudice against private education, harking back to the good old days of class warfare. There was no logic involved—just prejudice.
Thomas Docherty
May I clarify that I have no prejudice against people choosing to spend their own money on private health care or private education? I just object, when there are severe budget cuts for the MOD, to £110 million of taxpayers’ money being spent subsidising other people’s private education.
Mr Robathan
As I explained, the reason for the continuity of education allowance is so that children do not have to change schools often. I have heard of changes more than four times in five years and I do not think that is very fair on those children or their families. With that sort of system, people would tend not to stay in the armed forces. Be they private soldiers or generals, they would say, “I am not staying in the armed forces; I am going to do something else.” That is the reason for the allowance. [Hon. Members: “Private soldiers?”] Yes, private soldiers do send their children to independent schools. [Interruption.] I cannot speak on this in detail, but I assure Opposition Members—who presided over the system, which we are tightening up dramatically—that nearly 50% of those who use the continuity of education allowance are not commissioned officers.
Mr Robathan
No, not again.
I am sorry that I was not in the Chamber when the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) made his speech. [Interruption.] That is what it says here. He particularly seeks the maximum involvement of armed forces charities in the work of the covenant and that is absolutely what we want.
My hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) talked about the heroism in the armed forces, recognised in Wootton Bassett in his constituency, and I think that we all agree on that. He welcomed our commitment to the armed forces covenant and the fact that our manifesto commitment will be kept, but he should watch how the issue develops, because I think that he will be more satisfied than I understand he appeared to be in his speech. The provision is not a “sad little clause”; it is an important step forward in fulfilling our obligations to the armed forces.
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti) for his service in Afghanistan. I was glad to hear that he welcomed clause 2 and was critical of the previous Government’s record on the covenant. It seems rather strange that we get criticised for all these things after seven or eight months, whereas I seem to remember that the previous Government were there for 13 years.
My hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher) asked us to go the extra mile for the armed forces. He is absolutely right. They are in a unique position, and we should and will go that extra mile; we are committed to doing so. He talked about service family accommodation. We are working on improving quality. I recently cut the turf on a new estate, the Canadian estate in Bulford. It was put on hold under the last Government, but we have started again. There is, of course, a big issue about cost. We are also working towards greater home ownership. My hon. Friend may know of the new employment model, which will mean that the Army will tend to be based more in the same place, rather than moving around the country.
I heard the plea that my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) made for Armed Forces day in Plymouth, and we will certainly consider that. I absolutely agree with his central point, which is that we must make the armed forces feel valued. I know that I am a bit older than some people on the Opposition Front Bench—
Mr Robathan
—all of the people on the Opposition Front Bench; I can remember the Labour Government of 1974 to 1979. The pay of the armed forces was reduced so much, and was so poor, that people left in their droves, and we ended up with something called the black hole of officers. So many officers of captain and major rank left that there was a huge black hole, which was quite good for promotion, but not much good for the armed forces.
My hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke), who is extremely proud of Dover and military life there—I got that message—mentioned electoral registration. We are working on ensuring that it is easier for service personnel to register only once, because the system has become extremely complicated under quite well-meaning measures of the previous Government.
The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle), gave her first speech from the Front Bench. I congratulate her and welcome her to the Front Bench. I also welcome the service personnel Command Paper; I think that the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), who is not here, was partly responsible for it. It is basically a good piece of work that we support, and we are going forward with many of the improvements that were suggested and started by the previous Government; I think that we can say that.
The hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire then, I am sorry to say, went on about the external reference group, which we value. We have no plans to get rid of it, or to not publish its reports. It will produce a report, which will be seen and will be transparent. I assume that it will become evidence to the report on the covenant that the Secretary of State will have to make to Parliament. As I explained to the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife, that is about the accountability of the Government to Parliament, on which I hope we all agree. This is a non-story, a non-issue; the process will be transparent and accountable. We will listen to the external reference group, and if it does not like what we have done, I would expect it to say so. Hew Strachan and I have regular meetings. I always counsel people not to believe everything that they read in the newspapers.
We will look at the idea of a veterans identity card, which the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire was lauding, but one of the issues that should be addressed is: who actually wants it? It is quite important that a little bit of market research is done on that, to start with. She asked whether I was having meetings with people on the Bomber Command memorial. I had a meeting just before the recess with the new chairman of the Bomber Command memorial. We had a very constructive meeting, and I am helping him on one particular issue that I do not want to get into now; difficulties had arisen over planning permission in the royal parks.
The hon. Lady attacked us regarding the covenant. We are introducing the covenant. The Labour Government did not do so. It is rather strange to hear us attacked in such a way for what we are doing on the covenant. It is work in progress, like the degree of the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife.
Mr Robathan
The hon. Gentleman does an awful lot of chuntering. I am surprised that anyone lets him in.
Finally, I turn to the speech from the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy), the shadow Secretary of State. Disappointing is the best word to describe it. He said that our attitude was heartless. He was a member of the previous Government under the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown). I point out to him that one cannot spend money that one has not got. The previous Government spent it like water. They destroyed our economy.
The right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire grins back at me. He highlighted the decision of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government to change the indexation of service pensions from RPI to CPI, so perhaps now he will stand up and pledge that should, God forbid, the Labour party be returned to government at the next election, it will return the indexation of armed forces pensions and perhaps all public service pensions from CPI to RPI.
Mr Murphy
The right hon. Gentleman tempts me to rise, and I encourage the Secretary of State to rise to defend his policy. The question is whether it is right to take away from war widows and those who were severely injured on the battlefield in Afghanistan pension entitlement that they had reasonably expected. Perhaps the Minister should focus less on what will be in our manifesto in two, three or four years, and more on his policy this very evening. He should try at least to do what the Secretary of State failed to do and defend his own policy.
Mr Robathan
After that extremely long intervention, I notice that the right hon. Gentleman did not answer the question. He says that we are taking money away from people. We are doing nothing of the kind. That is scaremongering. We are changing the indexation going forward, as he is well aware. We must address the huge debt left behind by the previous Government. [Interruption.]. Opposition Members are obviously in denial. That is what we have to do.
The Bill is important, as I have explained, because it is part of parliamentary control of the armed forces. It provides the legal basis for the armed forces to exist. Without it, there would be some rather interesting and difficult situations.
Mr Robathan
No, I think not.
There is an annual continuation order, which must be approved by both Houses every year. The Bill is the primary legislation, which we must have every five years, as most Members of the House know. I have a real interest in the safe passage of the Bill. Perhaps I should have declared that I am a recipient of an armed forces pension changing from RPI to CPI indexation. It will be a privilege to take the Bill through the House.
Finally, I pay tribute to all members of the armed forces who are even now serving on duty in Afghanistan in real danger on our behalf. I also pay tribute to the families and the communities who support them.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
armed forces bill (programme)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),
That the following provisions shall apply to the Armed Forces Bill:
Select Committee
1. The Bill shall be committed to a Select Committee.
2. The Select Committee shall report the Bill to the House on or before 10 March 2011.
Committee of the whole House, consideration and Third Reading
3. On report from the Select Committee the Bill shall be re-committed to a Committee of the whole House.
4. Proceedings in Committee of the whole House on re-committal, any proceedings on consideration and proceedings on Third Reading shall be completed at one day’s sitting.
5. Proceedings in Committee of the whole House and any proceedings on consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the day on which those proceedings are commenced.
6. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour after the commencement of those proceedings or at the moment of interruption on that day, whichever is the earlier.
7. Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings in Committee of the whole House and on consideration and Third Reading.
Other proceedings
8. Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments or on any further messages from the Lords) may be programmed.—(Angela Watkinson.)
Question agreed to.
armed forces bill (Money)
Queen’s recommendation signified.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52(1)(a)),
That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Armed Forces Bill, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable under any other Act out of money so provided.—(Angela Watkinson.)
Question agreed to.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE ARMED FORCES BILL
Ordered,
That the following provisions shall apply to the Select Committee on the Armed Forces Bill:
1. The Committee shall have 14 members, to be nominated by the Committee of Selection.
2. The Committee shall have power—
(a) to send for persons, papers and records, to sit notwithstanding any adjournment of the House, to adjourn from place to place and to report from day to day the minutes of evidence taken before it;
(b) to admit the public during the examination of witnesses and during consideration of the Bill (but not otherwise); and
(c) to appoint specialist advisers either to supply information not readily available or to elucidate matters of complexity relating to the provisions of the Bill. —(Angela Watkinson.)
Midlands Medical Accommodation Project - Phase 2
Lord Robathan Excerpts(14 years, 5 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)
The Midlands Medical Accommodation (MMA) project aims to create, by March 2014, a new community of excellence—clinical, research and training at the Defence Medical Services establishments of Whittington near Lichfield and in Birmingham, both located in the west midlands. The project will be delivered in three phases of incremental acquisition, of which increment 1 is complete. I am pleased to say that the funding for increment 2 is now in place, and a contract for the associated work has been awarded to Carillion plc, subject to conditions precedent.
Increment 1 has already delivered a modern headquarters office building in which the Surgeon General’s strategic headquarters and the headquarters of the Joint Medical Command are now collocated and fully operational;
Increment 2 will create a modern training centre. This will include new training facilities; a new learning centre; a new lecture theatre; new messes for officers and for warrant officers and senior non-commissioned officers; service living accommodation for officers (permanent staff) and a new junior ranks’ dining and leisure facility. These will replace the existing facilities at Keogh barracks which would require levels of investment that compare unfavourably with those of the project; and
Increment 3, running along side increment 2, will provide modern single living accommodation. This is part of the ongoing upgrade programme approved under project SLAM.
The MMA project will draw together the currently dispersed components of the Defence Medical Services. The foundation of a close geographic community around Lichfield and Birmingham will encourage long-term life and career choices, particularly about stability, housing and education. This community will become a central and enduring feature in the life of the Defence Medical Services. It will be a firm base from which to exploit and sustain progress in military medicine, and a community providing respite from the intense demands of operational service. The Midlands Medical Accommodation project lays the foundation of a cohesive community of excellence and fellowship that will meet, with confidence, the strategic imperative to deliver military health care.
Community Veterans Mental Health Pilots
Lord Robathan Excerpts(14 years, 6 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)
The Government are committed to providing effective, through-life, health services for our service and ex-service personnel.
As part of this commitment, the Department of Health and devolved Administrations, with support from the Ministry of Defence, have piloted a new mental health care service for former members of the armed forces in six national health service trusts across the UK. The final pilot, in Scotland, is due to be completed in April 2011.
Independent evaluation of the pilots by the University of Sheffield Centre for Psychological Services Research, which my Department commissioned, has been completed. I am announcing today the publication of their independent evaluation report.
The report identifies key components of successful services and makes a number of recommendations. The Department of Health will consider the report and examine how its recommendations fit with existing and planned enhancements to NHS veterans mental health services, including those recommended by the my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison).
A copy of the report will be placed in the Library of the House and also on the websites of the University of Sheffield and the Ministry of Defence.
Armed Forces Pensions
Lord Robathan Excerpts(14 years, 6 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)
I am pleased to announce that I will be amending the compensation and pension payments for individuals who die as a result of service while holding acting rank. Pension arrangements under armed forces pension scheme 05 already ensure that any acting rank held at the time of death is taken into account in the pension received by surviving dependants. However, under the armed forces pension scheme 75, in most cases, the acting rank needs to be held for at least a year for it to be recognised in the pension received by surviving dependants. This rule will now be amended to ensure that, in future, those who die as a result of service while holding acting rank will have this higher rank recognised in the pension paid to their dependants, regardless of the length of time the acting rank has been held.
For previous such cases since April 2005, a lump sum payment of £20,000 will be made through the armed forces compensation scheme to ensure the acting rank is recognised in the payments dependants have received.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Robathan Excerpts(14 years, 6 months ago)
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David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
2. What steps he is taking to ensure adequate care provision for former service personnel.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)
The Government are committed to ensuring that all our former service personnel receive the support they require from across the whole of government. We also remain committed to rebuilding the military covenant.
My officials are in regular discussion with the Department of Health, the Ministry of Justice, the Department for Communities and Local Government and the Department for Work and Pensions and others to ensure that former servicemen and women get the services they deserve.
David T. C. Davies
Has the Minister considered lobbying the Government to change the law so that ex-service personnel can be discriminated in favour of in job interviews? Does he agree that were we to add ex-service personnel to the list of people in our society who can be discriminated in favour of, it would be a true example of positive discrimination?
Mr Robathan
I would say to all potential employers that most ex-service personnel bring with them a resilience and hard-work ethos that they may not find in every civilian. I would also say that we have very good resettlement packages for people going out into the civilian world, and we will certainly lobby employers to take disabled and other ex-service personnel on to their books. However, positive discrimination is illegal, and I do not think we are aiming to change the statutes. It is also unlawful to discriminate against disabled people.
Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op)
The Minister has said in recent letters to Members that the Government have no plans to introduce a veterans card scheme, which many believe would assist in identifying veterans to ensure that they get the care they deserve. However, the report on the military covenant commissioned by the Government and published last week recommends implementing such a scheme. Will he now reconsider his view on this matter?
Mr Robathan
There is no point in commissioning a report without looking at it, and we are doing so closely—as the hon. Lady will know, we are already implementing one or two of its recommendations. The veterans card is a difficult one, because, as Labour Members in the last Administration will know, it is difficult to identify who has been in the armed forces over a period of perhaps 60 years, and to ensure that it is feasible. It is also difficult to identify what exactly would be the point of it. We should remember, for instance, that there is already a discount service for those people.
Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con)
3. What timetable he has set for the decommissioning of Harrier jets.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
7. If he will take steps to implement the recommendations of parliamentary Committees in the last Parliament and the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child to end the recruitment of under-18s into the armed forces.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)
The United Kingdom ratified the optional protocol on children in armed conflict in June 2003. The minimum age at which individuals may join the armed forces remains at 16 years, which broadly reflects the minimum statutory school leaving age. There are no plans to change this.
Mr Robathan
I recently took a passing-out parade at Bassingbourn, and I was struck by how happy all the young recruits under training appeared to be. We take our duty of care very seriously. It is a tough environment, but the recruits are well looked after, and most of the young people I met were desperate to join their units. We do not allow people under 18 to go to operational theatre as a matter of policy.
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
8. What assessment he has made of the value-for-money of the contract to build two new aircraft carriers for the Royal Navy.
Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)
17. What steps his Department is taking to raise the standard of service accommodation.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)
The Government place a high priority on the welfare of service personnel and their families and will therefore seek to improve accommodation where necessary. More than 95% of service family accommodation properties in the UK are currently at the top two standards, out of four, for condition.
Ian Lavery
The Minister will be aware that as a result of the sale of the Chelsea barracks in 2007, £959 million was raised. Can he confirm that that money will be ring-fenced for service accommodation and that any future investment during the comprehensive spending review period will be new, rather than previously allocated, investment?
Mr Robathan
There was a story in the News of the World which was not entirely correct. [Interruption.] It was not entirely correct. A great deal of money was raised from the sale of Chelsea barracks but that was some four years ago when I do not recall our being in power. Having checked on this we have discovered that although the money is not ring-fenced, because we do not believe it should be, we have spent the vast majority of it and we will spend well in excess of that amount. As a matter of interest, on Thursday I was fortuitously at Bulford, where I started the work on a new married quarters estate that will provide 260 state-of-the-art houses for our deserving personnel.
Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)
19. What effects the redundancies in the armed forces announced in the strategic defence and security review will have on standing commitments.
Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD)
T4. Will the Minister update me on the progress of the reserved forces review, mentioned in the SDSR, and confirm that there will be no cuts to 56 Signal Squadron? It is partly based in my constituency, and I personally had the good fortune to witness the skill and dedication of its members during the cold snap, when, if it had not been for them, I think my local hospital would have struggled to stay open.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)
I certainly pay tribute to the Signal Squadron and its work during the cold snap. The hon. Gentleman will understand that I cannot pre-empt the review, which only started less than two months ago, by saying whether there will be any changes to the squadron’s configuration. What I can say is that we very much value the commitment and contribution of the reserves both at home and, now, on operational deployments.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
We are constantly being told that the next Parliament after 2015 will have to take the final decision on replacing the Trident nuclear missile system. Exactly how much money, which would otherwise not need to be spent, will be spent between now and then in preparing for that decision?
Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
T7. My hon. Friend will be aware of the sacrifice of the thousands of men and women of Bomber Command during the second world war. That sacrifice has never been properly recognised by the award of a campaign medal. When will it be?
Mr Robathan
May I take this opportunity to pay tribute to those of Bomber Command and, indeed, to the whole of the Royal Air Force during the second world war? They fought to defend our freedom so successfully and we owe them an enormous amount.
A review into medals is taking place—indeed, there are meetings this week—and I am also having meetings about a Bomber Command memorial, which will go up opposite the Royal Air Force Club in St James’s park. It is a very fine memorial, and I look forward to it being erected and to paying proper tribute to Bomber Command, which I know some people feel has been slightly forgotten.
War Pensions: Uprating 2011
Lord Robathan Excerpts(14 years, 6 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)
The new rates of war pensions and allowances proposed from April 2011 are set out in the following tables. The annual uprating of war pensions and allowances for 2011 will take place from the week beginning 11 April 2011. Rates for 2011 are increasing by 3.1% in line with the Consumer Price Index as outlined in the Budget.
Rates | Rates | |
|---|---|---|
(Weekly rates unless otherwise shown) | 2010 | 2011 |
WAR PENSIONS | ||
Disablement Pension (100% rates) | ||
officer (£ per annum) | 8072.00 | 8323.00 |
other ranks (weekly amount) | 154.70 | 159.50 |
Age allowances payable from age 65 | ||
40%-50% | 10.40 | 10.70 |
over 50% but not over 70% | 15.90 | 16.40 |
over 70% but not over 90% | 22.65 | 23.35 |
over 90% | 31.80 | 32.80 |
Disablement gratuity (one-off payment) | ||
specified minor injury (min.) | 985.00 | 1016.00 |
specified minor injury (max.) | 7356.00 | 7584.00 |
1-5% gratuity | 2459.00 | 2535.00 |
6-14% gratuity | 5468.00 | 5638.00 |
15-19% gratuity | 9564.00 | 9860.00 |
SUPPLEMENTARY ALLOWANCES | ||
Unemployability allowance | ||
Personal | 95.60 | 98.55 |
Adult dependency increase | 53.10 | 54.75 |
Increase for first child | 12.35 | 12.75 |
increase for subsequent children | 14.50 | 14.95 |
Invalidity allowance | ||
higher rate | 18.95 | 19.55 |
middle rate | 12.20 | 12.60 |
lower rate | 6.10 | 6.30 |
Constant attendance allowance | ||
exceptional rate | 116.80 | 120.40 |
intermediate rate | 87.60 | 90.30 |
Full-day rate | 58.40 | 60.20 |
Part-day rate | 29.20 | 30.10 |
Comforts allowance | ||
higher rate | 25.10 | 25.90 |
lower rate | 12.55 | 12.95 |
Mobility supplement | 55.65 | 57.40 |
Allowance for lowered standard of occupation (maximum) | 58.32 | 60.12 |
Therapeutic earnings limit (annual rate) | 4836.00 | 4940.00 |
Exceptionally severe disablement allowance | 58.40 | 60.20 |
Severe disablement occupational allowance | 29.20 | 30.10 |
Clothing allowance (£ per annum) | 199.00 | 205.00 |
Education allowance (£ per annum) (max) | 120.00 | 120.00 |
WIDOW(ER)S BENEFITS | ||
Widow(er)s’-other ranks (basic with children) (weekly amount) | 117.30 | 120.95 |
Widow(er)-Officer (basic with children) (£ per annum) | 6239.00 | 6432.00 |
Childless widow(er)s’ u-40 (other ranks) (weekly amount | 28.10 | 28.97 |
Childless widow(er)s’ u-40 (Officer highest rate both wars) (£ per annum) | 2167.00 | 2234.00 |
Supplementary Pension | 78.48 | 80.91 |
Age allowance | ||
(a) age 65 to 69 | 13.40 | 13.80 |
(b) age 70 to 79 | 25.70 | 26.50 |
(c) age 80 and over | 38.10 | 39.30 |
Children’s allowance | ||
Increase for first child | 18.40 | 18.95 |
Increase for subsequent children | 20.60 | 21.25 |
Orphan’s pension | ||
Increase for first child | 21.00 | 21.65 |
Increase for subsequent children | 23.05 | 23.75 |
Unmarried dependant living as spouse (max) | 114.95 | 118.60 |
Rent allowance (maximum) | 44.25 | 45.60 |
Adult orphan’s pension (maximum) | 90.10 | 92.90 |
Defence Spending (Wales)
Lord Robathan Excerpts(14 years, 6 months ago)
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Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)
I am listening with surprise to the hon. Lady, because she seems to be saying that we should make defence decisions based on employment in south Wales, rather than on the needs of the armed forces and the nation. Is that right?
Mrs James
I cannot agree with the Minister. I am saying—I thought I had done so clearly—that there is a disparity, which would have been reduced if the Government had decided to go forward with the defence technical college. It is not rocket science; a decision to build the college would have provided more equality and fairness. It would not have endangered front-line services, but would certainly have helped our forces, who serve so valiantly in Afghanistan.
Simon Hart
The hon. Gentleman will be pleased that I am able to quote. The black hole of £38 billion in unfunded procurement commitments to which I referred is from an MOD brief, post-SDSR defence SB, from 19 October 2010. If that is good enough for the MOD, it is good enough for me. I am sorry that it is not good enough for him.
Mr Robathan
My hon. Friend is making a very powerful case. The figure is not fallacious; the MOD budget was projected to be overspent by £38 billion over the next 10 years.
Mr Robathan
It is not drivel. My hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) knows that the previous Labour Government were planning cuts across the board, throughout Government spending, of 20%. Hearing people defending such matters does not go down well.
Simon Hart
I thank the Minister for his intervention.
Let me turn briefly to St Athan. It is not my normal habit to come to the defence of my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns), but he is actually in the Vale of Glamorgan today, where he is working hard on behalf of his constituents.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)
This is the first Westminster Hall debate to which I have contributed in the past five years. It is a pleasure to be here and to be under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I congratulate the hon. Member for Swansea East (Mrs James) on securing the debate. She spoke about the effects that choices on defence spending can have on regions of the United Kingdom, and I hope to return to her words shortly.
There has been some suggestion that the Government are, in some way, anti-Welsh; that they have their daggers out for Wales. That is absolutely not the case. Let me give my own credentials. My great-grandfather and great-great-grandfather were doctors in Islwyn, in Risca. My grandfather was headmaster of Llandaff Cathedral school.
Mr Robathan
I am just saying that I am not Welsh- [Interruption.] Rather, I am not anti-Welsh. The name Robathan is Welsh. In fact, in Islwyn, there are many Robathans in the telephone book. I had a great-uncle in the Welsh Guards, and another great-uncle who was killed at Gallipoli.
Mr Robathan
The hon. Gentleman is always full of hot air. If he could listen for a bit, he will hear what I have to say about some of the comments that have been made. I also had a great-uncle in the Welch Regiment who was killed at Gallipoli. I would rather not be accused of being anti-Welsh. I can promise that I have spent more time on the Brecon Beacons in the driving rain and snow and in Sennybridge than most people in this Chamber, possibly with the exception of you, Mr Gray, and my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart). I have also climbed from Capel Curig adventure training camp. Those are all the military assets in Wales that I have used in my life. I would rather not hear the suggestion that we are anti-Welsh. This is the first Welsh debate in which I have taken part, because I am not representing Wales.
Let me pay tribute to all the civilians who work for the MOD and in defence projects in St Athan and elsewhere in Wales. I should also like to pay tribute to all the armed forces who are based in Wales or who are from Wales. Indeed, I support anyone who supports the defence of the United Kingdom from wherever they come.
I have been surprised by this debate because I have found it extraordinarily narrow and partisan [Interruption.] Did the hon. Gentleman say because it is Welsh? I find it astonishing. The hon. Member for Swansea East compared the desecration of war memorials in her constituency with the fact that we are not proceeding with the Metrix bid at St Athan. I can see no relationship there at all; I do not believe that her constituents or people outside will, either.
Hon. Members have spoken about the SDSR, but let me be quite clear about it. Across Government, we have faced the worst financial and economic crisis that anybody in this room has seen in their lifetime. [Interruption.] It is no good groaning. The hon. Member for Rhondda was a Minister in the previous Government and he knows that it is true.
We are currently borrowing £143 million a day. In terms of defence in Wales, that would buy, every week, three Type 45 destroyers. [Interruption.] Do they never go to Welsh ports? It is not fallacious, as the hon. Member for Rhondda said—[Interruption.] Gosh, he witters. It is not fallacious that the defence budget was overspent by £38 billion; it is true.
Let me turn briefly to some of the remarks that have been made. First, the hon. Member for Swansea East quite reasonably wants to hear about St Athan. One of the biggest decisions that the Ministry of Defence had to take was on the defence training rationalisation programme. We have heard at length about its cancellation. Put simply, that project, in the guise that it was in, was never going to be made affordable. Despite strenuous efforts by the Department—under both the previous and current Administrations—it became clear that the bidder, Metrix, was unable to deliver an affordable, commercially robust proposal within the prescribed period. On that basis, the Defence Secretary decided to terminate the project.
We continue to believe that individual technical training co-located on fewer sites, as my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (John Glen) mentioned, remains the best solution for the armed forces, but not necessarily for St Athan. The SDSR committed the Government to continuing to look at options from pre-training across the services.
Chris Bryant
This is a serious point. Many of us believe that bringing together all the forces for technical training is an important part of what was suggested in the past. It has worked extremely well at Shrivenham. Who would ever have thought that the Royal Navy would be prepared to leave Greenwich? It has, and it has worked. Is the Minister still saying that he wants to achieve purple training in, we hope, St Athan or elsewhere?
Mr Robathan
As the hon. Gentleman will understand, I have to be very careful not to commit myself to things that we are reviewing at the moment. None the less, we do see a need and a sensible way forward for more purple training on some issues. Some of that may take place in St Athan and some elsewhere.
I can assure hon. Members that St Athan is still being considered; a substantial amount of training continues at St Athan.
Geraint Davies
Will the Minister give us some indication of the time frame in which we will get clarity over whether there will be a joint establishment and where it will be? Will it be in a year, two years, three years, or does he just not know?
Mr Robathan
The review does not have an end date, but I expect it to be within the next few months.
I appreciate that the cancellation of the DTR was not something that the hon. Member for Swansea East or the people of south Wales wanted to hear. The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) pointed out the rocketing costs of the DTR in St Athan. He said that in two years they had gone up from £12 billion to £14 billion. He mentioned the job losses. He said that almost half the people who were employed by the MOD 13 years ago are now not employed. He also talked about the Red Dragon hangar. The previous Government decided to build that hangar. It cost £107 million and it was to accommodate the refurbishment of 48 Tornados and Harriers. The repairs and refurbishment were cancelled before the hangar was completed in 2004; it was a complete waste of money.
The hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) talked about the Metrix decision being made in the context of the SDSR. He is wrong. It was separate from the SDSR and not part of our overall view. He also talked about RAF Valley. I can reassure him that RAF Valley plays a very important role in pilot training—fast jet training. If there are changes, we will keep him informed. He is also welcome to write to me, and I will write to him if changes come up.
The hon. Gentleman talked about Texas. I have to say that the weather is generally better there than in Anglesey.
Albert Owen
Will the Minister tell us the position with regard to replacing Sea Kings with Sikorsky helicopters? The £7 billion contract is important.
Mr Robathan
I am afraid that I do not have the time, but I will write to the hon. Gentleman.
In conclusion, the previous Government let down the United Kingdom. They let down United Kingdom defence and they let down Wales. I was told today that Labour was standing up for defence. It has not been standing up for defence in Wales but for narrow partisan interests. Frankly, it is a scandal. We will not make defence decisions based on regional party political advantage, or on the advantage of the Principality; we will make a clear-headed assessment on what is best for our armed forces, the United Kingdom—including the Principality—and its defence.