Defence: Expenditure

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Tuesday 11th June 2019 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Robathan]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Foreign Secretary’s speech at the Lord Mayor’s Banquet on 13 May represented a change in their policy on defence expenditure.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have committed to meet our NATO pledge to spend at least 2% of GDP on defence every year of this Parliament. We are one of only a small number of NATO countries to spend 2% of GDP on defence. We have the largest military budget in Europe and are the second-largest spender in NATO, behind the United States.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, that is a somewhat disappointing response from my noble friend. I will not blame him; I will blame the people who wrote it. The Foreign Secretary is in a position to see the threats and dangers that face world peace in general and the interests of this country in particular. When he called for a decisive, significant increase in defence expenditure, possibly doubling defence expenditure up to 4% according to the Guardian, which I do not often quote, many in this Chamber would have been very pleased. The relatively new Defence Secretary supports his leadership bid. The previous Defence Secretary pleaded for more defence spending. Will my noble friend please go back to the Government and to whomsoever becomes the next Prime Minister to say that many in this Chamber and across the country who show an interest in defence desperately want to see increased defence expenditure?

Army: Divisional Manoeuvre and Deployment Training

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Tuesday 8th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the press coverage on this has been somewhat overdramatised. A person can be medically downgraded for a whole variety of reasons, most of which are minor and temporary and do not prevent them fulfilling their core duties. A good example would be a sports injury. Medically non-deployable, another category of personnel, can include more serious circumstances but also includes pregnancy, which—my brief says—is a self-limiting condition.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, is there not one issue underlying both this Question and that from the noble Lord, Lord West? There are insufficient funds in the defence budget, and if we wish to live up to our international obligations and our aspirations, and to defend this country and our interests abroad in the way we say we do, we may need to spend more on defence.

[Earl Howe]

My noble friend makes an extremely important point, and we in the Ministry of Defence are always very conscious of the point he has stressed. But it is also important for all three armed services to look at the resources they have to see how they can use them even more effectively. The SDSR in 2015 and the modernising defence programme recognise the changed threat that faces us, and as a result the Army will be able to generate a more capable war-fighting division, at higher readiness, as part of the Joint Force 2025 programme.

Veterans Strategy

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Thursday 15th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I am very pleased to speak in this debate. I will take up where my noble friend Lord Attlee left off about the pursuit of former servicemen who may have committed, or are alleged to have committed, some crimes in the past. The veterans strategy does not address that. It should be in the veterans strategy because, frankly, it is a disgrace that historic allegations which have been investigated in the past are now being dragged out. This is what I intend to look at. I intend to look briefly at Northern Ireland, Iraq and Afghanistan.

I should say that I served in Northern Ireland, where I did a couple of long tours. I never did anything very exciting, although many of my friends did, and I suspect that many of them now fear being reinvestigated. I also served in the first Gulf War, and then worked in the Ministry of Defence and the Northern Ireland Office in the coalition Government. I shall look at government responsibility, parliamentary responsibility, the issue of equivalence, and the passage of time.

Responsibility for sending young men, and now, indeed, young women, to war rests with the Government —the state, if you like—and this Parliament, so we are all to a certain extent responsible. I was involved in voting occasionally on the Iraq war and on the war in Afghanistan. Parliament sends young men to defend British interests as we perceive them to be abroad or, indeed, in Northern Ireland. Those young men and women should expect our support. Who do we send? I will speak from my experience, which is that we send young, scared soldiers who may not have been out of this country before—who may not have been out of England before when they are sent to Northern Ireland—with lethal weapons to places where others are trying to kill them. They are not overpaid lawyers like those who now pursue them around the courts, and they are not policemen. They are not trained as policemen, and they do not necessarily understand all the niceties of the law.

That brings me on to equivalence. These young men—I speak particularly about Northern Ireland—faced terrorists who were trying to kill them. On the one hand, you had public servants doing their duty as requested by Parliament and the Government and trying to do the right thing, and on the other hand, you had terrorists in Northern Ireland acting illegally against our state. There is no equivalence, and the idea that equivalence should be considered is quite wrong.

In Northern Ireland I saw young, scared, jumpy men being shot at and trying to do the right thing. They did not always get it right. Did they behave badly or illegally? Well, sometimes people did. I shall name three cases, the first from Northern Ireland: the Fermanagh pitchfork murders, which the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Houghton, may know about, where people behaved atrociously and murdered a couple of farmers with pitchforks. I am glad to say that those people who murdered, who obviously behaved very illegally, finally went to jail for life. Secondly, the case of Baha Musa in Iraq is well known. The soldiers there behaved atrociously, and indeed several of them went to detention and jail. The third is the very sad case in Afghanistan of Sergeant Blackman, who actually said, and was recorded saying, “This is against the Geneva convention”. There was a big campaign about it. The truth is that he broke the Geneva convention and knew he was doing so, and he went to jail. It seems to me that that is the right way for these things to be handled.

However, do people make mistakes? If you send these young men with rifles on to the streets of wherever it may be, Northern Ireland or Basra, they will make mistakes. They are scared for their lives. I will bring up one case that is currently in front of the courts. Dennis Hutchings is alleged to have shot a young man called John Pat Cunningham in 1974. The man he shot, Cunningham, was alleged to have had a mental age of six or seven; he was challenged on several occasions and ran, and they shot him. Obviously that was a mistake. They did not intend to kill this young man with a mental age of seven. In fact, I believe I may have been the Minister who apologised to the family from the Ministry of Defence for this mistake—for it was a mistake. However, to return to equivalence, there is no equivalence between public servants who make mistakes and terrorists who murder civilians. In Northern Ireland, 9/10ths of murders took place because of terrorists and 1/10th of the deaths took place because of security force work.

On the question of the passage of time—I refer again to Northern Ireland, which perhaps I know most about—there is currently a coroner’s inquest into the Ballymurphy killings, which is referred to by many as the Ballymurphy massacre, of August 1971. As it happens, I know Ballymurphy quite well, having walked round and round it for four months. In 1971 I was at university. To me, the General Strike and Hitler’s putsch in Munich were old history. That is what we are doing now; we are looking down back at 1971 and saying, “What happened then?” Guess what: half the people who were there are dead, particularly the defence witnesses. The Army of course has records but there are no records of whatever happens from the other side. In my own view—I am lucky to be covered by privilege in Parliament—I suspect that the soldiers in Ballymurphy were not fully in control, and I suspect some of the people killed there should most certainly not have been shot, in the same way that those of us who remember the Saville inquiry into Bloody Sunday knew in 1972 that the Parachute Regiment in Londonderry at the time was actually not properly under control. However, what are we to do about this? My own preference on these things is for a statute of limitations, but I am not going to put forward too many views because I want the Minister to think about it.

I turn to the current situation and where things are going at the moment. Relatively recently, in Iraq and indeed in Afghanistan, the British Government were supporting—if one can believe it—the investigations of money-chasing lawyers running around these fields. Phil Shiner, who has now been struck off the solicitors register, and his own company, Public Interest Lawyers, got over £2 million of legal fees paid by the British taxpayer, by us. There is Leigh Day, where the lead solicitor was in fact found to have behaved badly but is now back on the register because he appealed successfully so I will not deal with that. Other people have also been chasing around, trying to find young people in Iraq and Afghanistan who know that compensation is on offer if they can make a case stick against the British Army. We are talking about fighting a war in these places. We are allowing our decency and our liberal democracy to be used against us. Of course soldiers should not misbehave, but at the same time they should not be pursued.

I return to the subject of Northern Ireland. I have talked about the pursuit of public servants. If we look back to 1973, the dogs on the streets will tell you that Gerry Adams, who has always denied being a member of the IRA, was in charge of the IRA in west Belfast. He was arrested about five years ago over the murder of Jean McConville. That is a very tragic story—if noble Lords want to know about it I can tell them, but I do not have time now—of a Protestant woman, the widow of a Catholic in the Divis flats, who tried to help a dying soldier. She was taken away, in front of her 10 children, and murdered, but Gerry Adams will not be prosecuted. We have the case of John Downie, who was given a letter by the Blair Government saying that he would not be prosecuted. Apparently he has now been arrested and charged in the Republic with the murder of two other people. By the way, I knew one of the people in the Hyde Park bombing; Denis Daly was murdered in 1982. However, Downie got off, whereas soldiers are still being pursued for allegations of crimes that took place further away.

I will raise one case from Iraq that I was tangentially involved in. The case of Trooper Williams reflects incredibly badly on the Army establishment, the Ministry of Defence and indeed our society. Trooper Williams, aged 18, discovered along with a patrol a barrow-load of mortar bombs being pushed through, I believe, Basra. They did not shoot; they chased the man pushing that barrow-load of mortar bombs—I think it is reasonable to say that he was going about nefarious activities—into a compound where he got into a struggle with another soldier, and Williams, aged 18, shot the man. He was taken before his commanding officer, the case was considered and, on legal advice, dismissed by the commanding officer. I quote from the letter which I have from the adjutant-general at the time, which said, “We must reopen this case because it would become a cause célèbre for single-issue pressure groups”.

I think that the British Army and the Government should be supporting their own people as far as they might, not looking out for single-issue pressure groups. As it happens, this case, for which Williams spent a year in open arrest, in custody, before going to the High Court, was dismissed by the judge on the first day.

I say to my noble friend, knowing that he knows that a lot of people will agree with me, that the situation is a mess. The Government and Parliament, which send young men and women to war, need to support their public servants, so we need to sort out the situation. Of course those who commit crimes should be punished, but we should not allow this unreasonable pursuit that has taken place 47 years later. That should be in the veterans strategy.

Afghanistan Update

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Wednesday 11th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

The noble Baroness makes an excellent point. I can tell her that the UK is supporting the Afghan people by helping to provide them with greater access to healthcare, education, safe drinking water and many things that a few years ago they were unable to enjoy. But it is also about building a better basis for the Afghan economy to function: helping to create jobs, boosting economic development, and, importantly, tackling corruption, which I am afraid has been endemic in many parts of the country. To that end, the UK has pledged to spend up to £750 million in aid to Afghanistan between 2016 and 2020, depending on security conditions and Afghan government performance.

As I understand it, our Armed Forces are not directly involved in that civilian type of work, although they could be called on if needed, as indeed could personnel from any of the NATO allies—but on the whole our focus is on enabling the Afghan agencies themselves to undertake that work with financial support.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I think that I visited Afghanistan five times while at the Ministry of Defence, and every time I went there I was sure that things were getting better. The House should remember that we first assisted in getting rid of the Taliban Government in Kabul in 2001, nearly 17 years ago, yet it does not appear that the Taliban is defeated in any way. There is a vexed history between Britain and Afghanistan which, as people will know, dates back to the first Afghan war and the appalling slaughter and retreat from Kabul of 1842. Will the Minister take back to his Secretary of State and indeed to the Government as a whole that we must work towards getting an Afghan Government taking control? I fear that this is just another step along the road that has not achieved very much in the last 17 years.

[Earl Howe]

I very much respect my noble friend’s views on this, but I do not share his pessimism. The NATO-led ISAF combat mission was completed at the end of 2014, as noble Lords are aware. The Afghan National Defense and Security Forces are now taking the lead in the security of Afghanistan, and I believe that they have repeatedly proved that they are capable of carrying out their responsibilities. President Ghani himself has said that he believes that we have now turned an important corner. The momentum is definitely with the ANDSF and, as the Statement said, the Taliban cannot now win militarily. However, I acknowledge my noble friend’s point to the extent that significant challenges still exist in Afghanistan; we cannot get away from that. That is why the international community remains committed to the future of Afghanistan, and why NATO is clear that it is vital to continue to train, advise and assist Afghanistan’s forces through the means that I have referred to.

UK Territorial Seas: Incidents

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Thursday 14th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I take the noble Lord’s points and suggestions fully on board. I have come equipped with a list of the assets and vessels that are available for deployment today, and I can inform noble Lords about them if they are of further interest. The noble Lord makes a very important point about the funding of the JMOCC. In a purely technical sense, it is fully funded, but only for the current financial year. However, he should be in no doubt that all contributing departments are committed to it and to the work that it does. Even in its short life since October last year, it has very much proved its worth in terms of co-ordination.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I too thank my noble friend the Minister for the briefing that he gave yesterday, which I found very helpful. Although I agree with a great deal that the noble Lord, Lord West, said—I think that we need to be very clear about this—it seems that this is work in progress. This is a relatively new organisation which is developing as we go forward, so will my noble friend keep the House updated on what is happening? I think that many of us share the noble Lord’s concerns.

[Earl Howe]

I am grateful to my noble friend and I can readily give him that assurance. In addition to the platforms and assets required for maritime security, which is of course an important priority, the key to effective maritime security operations is that they should be, first, intelligence led, secondly, risk assessed on the basis of that intelligence and, thirdly, well co-ordinated. There is no doubt in my mind that, since the creation of the National Maritime Information Centre—which the noble Lord, Lord West, was instrumental in setting up—and the JMOCC, we have seen a step change in efficiency in the delivery of these operations.

Armed Forces: Investment

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Monday 22nd January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the Government always wish their decisions to have maximum transparency but national security considerations may override that.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend, for whom I have very great respect, talks about raising defence spending by 0.5% above inflation but the fall in the value of sterling has negated this completely. In addition, the situation has changed so much, particularly with regard to Russia, but we could also mention North Korea, Daesh and whomsoever one wishes. The situation has changed so completely that a lot of people in this House, the other place and indeed the country are hugely concerned about defence.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I am fully aware of that fact.

National Security Capability Review

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Monday 15th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the capability review has indeed been fiscally neutral in its approach, but we are addressing the challenges we face—I would not disagree with the three factors the noble Lord articulated—by ensuring that the policy and plans that support the implementation of the national security strategy are as joined-up, effective and efficient as possible. That may mean that we enhance the resources that are channelled towards certain capabilities and, as the noble Lord might expect from that, that we reduce the resources we are currently devoting to other capabilities.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I am prepared to give this review a welcome but if, as the Minister said, many of the threats are getting greater, we need to look at enhancing the amount of money we spend on defence. If the threats are greater, our defences must be greater as well.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, from many of our debates on this topic I am well aware of the feeling of the House—that many noble Lords believe we should be spending more on defence. However, that is not currently the reality we are working with in the context of this review. As I say, we have a budget. We want to ensure that we are spending it intelligently in the context of the threats we face, and of our overall foreign policy.

Royal Marines

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Tuesday 28th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I start by declaring an interest—or, some may think, a dark secret—in that I spent three years in the Royal Marines as a university cadet. I left, or resigned, as I came down from university. I subsequently joined the Army but I retain a great respect for the Royal Marines, about whom we have heard a great deal from the local Lord, Lord Burnett. It may be of interest to the House to know that I left the Royal Marines quite a long time after the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown—at least, I think it is of interest.

I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Burnett, on calling the debate and on expounding the position of the maritime forces, specifically the Royal Marines. Perforce I will not take up too much of the House’s time, but I ask these questions of the House and indeed the Government: what are our ambitions in defence? Do we wish to be able to defend our trading interests? Do we wish to be able to defend our overseas territories or indeed to help them in humanitarian operations, as we have just heard, or do we want to retreat behind the Channel? Do we wish to remain a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council? Do we wish to be regarded as a serious player in NATO? Do we wish to punch above our weight? This is the nation of Drake, Raleigh, Nelson, Jellicoe and Fisher. Do we want to be a serious player in maritime and world affairs?

If, as is rumoured, we were to scrap our maritime landing capability, what signal would that send to an expansionist and aggressive Russia, which daily is testing our maritime defences with submarines? I was listening this morning, as were one or two other Members of the House, to Rear Admiral Bob Tarrant, who stood down last month as Chief of Naval Operations. He expanded on the increase in the bellicosity of Russia and explained that the number of incidents involving Russian submarines has shot up.

What signal would such a move send to Iran, which can currently dominate the Straits of Hormuz coming out of the Persian Gulf and is supporting the Houthi rebels in Yemen, probably for the reason that it wishes to dominate the sea passages into the Red Sea and up to Suez? What signal would it send to our allies, our friends in NATO and especially to the USA? What sort of nation do we want to be?

The last Secretary of State designated this the Year of the Navy but we read that the national security capability review is likely to cut the Navy, particularly maritime landing craft, yet further. It is not just the naval service, the Royal Navy and the Royal Marines, but defence and the Armed Forces as a whole. We have to spend more or abandon our ambitions—it is quite straightforward.

I know Mark Sedwill, the National Security Adviser. Noble Lords may not know that, like me, he was a Royal Marine, also, I think, as a university cadet, and then he went on to—dare I say “better” things?—certainly greater things at the Foreign Office. He has been traduced by the press because he is concentrating on cybersecurity. Cybersecurity is hugely important, and I suggest that he is not to blame for having to make this a priority.

My point is that well-equipped people will always remain crucial in terms of defence; they are the big stick that we need to carry.

We must increase our defence spending. Enough, if I may say so, of this trotted out comment of 2% of GDP. Two per cent of GDP would not have included the deterrent cost until six years ago. Two per cent of GDP spent on defence includes my pension but, fit, able and aggressive as I may be, I think it unlikely that I shall be called back to the colours.

We need to spend up to our ambitions, and to a Conservative Government who I support, I say that we need to get our spending priorities right, or retreat as a nation into mediocrity in world affairs. The nation will rightly hold us culpable if we fail to defend it. I have often parroted and now hear Ministers parrot the old adage that the first duty of government is the defence of the realm. I say to my Government: please live up to that pious ambition, aspiration and adage; let us all see it.

Armed Forces Act (Continuation) Order 2017

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Tuesday 21st March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Earl. He brings nautical experience to our discussions but I bring rather more of an Army bias. He is also a relative newcomer to this House. As a relative new boy myself, I note that your Lordships’ House has taken a bit of a kicking recently in the press but, having sat through most of this debate, I have been extraordinarily impressed by some of the excellent speeches, which have been interesting, well-informed and informative. It is of course invidious to mention names but I shall mention in particular the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, who I thought spoke particularly well. I am glad to see that the Secretary of State and indeed the chairman of the Select Committee from the House of Commons are both here listening. I hope that I can live up to that high standard, though I rather doubt it.

I shall make two points. The first relates to the standing of the Armed Forces, which was partially covered by the noble Earl. The second is about the current international situation, which was mentioned in the Motion, and our preparedness for it.

It is a cliché to say—quite rightly—that our Armed Forces are highly regarded. When I was working in the MoD, they were probably more highly regarded than they ever had been in my lifetime, largely because of Afghanistan, Iraq and the tragedies there. To digress, a friend of mine in the United States army told me that, after Vietnam, he flew back into Los Angeles airport and, as he walked out in uniform, he was spat at. I am glad to say that we have never got to that stage here and I hope we never do. In the same vein, about a dozen years ago, when there were elections to the US Senate, it was said that there was no elected senator with a child who had served or was serving in the armed forces. Of course, there were people such as McCain who had served themselves. In contrast, on the Benches here and in the other place, there are people who not only have themselves served in the Armed Forces but who continue to have connections through children and relations who serve. This means that we are closer, in many ways, to our Armed Forces than is the case in some other places. I am glad to say that it remains a respected career and attracts a high quality of both officers and men. It remains a profession of which to be proud. Parents can be proud if their children join the Armed Forces.

[Lord Hunt of Chesterton]

And women, indeed.

[Lord Robathan]

The noble Lord is, of course, an academic. It used to be “mankind” but now, apparently, one has to say “personkind”. When my son rang up and announced that he was thinking of joining the Armed Forces, his mother said, “Over my dead body”. She has changed her mind now, I am glad to say. It is not by chance that we have respected professionals in the Armed Forces. When I served, there used to be something called KAPE—keeping the Army in the public eye. This is very important. Unfortunately, with the reduction in the Armed Forces over a number of years, we have seen, for instance, good barracks being sold. I recall Chelsea. Hounslow, also in London, is on the market as, I understand, is Woolwich. Nobody quite knows what is going on with Hyde Park barracks. The point is that if you consign your Armed Forces personnel to the back of an industrial estate, the respect they are afforded is less. Messes have been contracted out. What used to be regarded as a home, particularly for officers, is no longer seen as such. Pay and conditions have continuously been eroded over many years.

We have heard about morale. Morale is a bit amorphous. If you listen to some people, it is always low. I used to think that if soldiers were not complaining about something, they probably were not happy. To put it mildly, recruitment and retention are not good at the moment. We have an Army that is not recruited to its 82,000 target. I urge the Government to look at this whole situation. It is not about people pitying poor soldiers who have seen awful things in Afghanistan and Iraq, as we sometimes hear. They do not want pity; they want to be respected. It is not about politically correct issues and diversity, nor about bad conditions in which people live, although these too are important. It is about feeling valued and respected by the society one serves. It is about being challenged by adventure and excitement, seeing a future career and lifestyle that can offer a decent life for oneself and one’s family, and doing a worthwhile job. This means the Government seeing the value of some things rather than just looking at the cost.

My second point, which has been covered much more in this debate, is our response to the current international situation. I was particularly impressed by the tour de force from the Minister about the strategic threats we face, which was backed up by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup. I know that my noble friend the Minister is in a rather difficult position, but we all value his support for defence. I was part of the SDSR 2010, together with my noble friend Lord Astor and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup. The noble Lord, Lord Touhig, is absolutely right. It was driven by costs. Some people tried to deny it at the time, but it was about cutting costs. I say to the three Labour Ministers who have spoken so far today, that the situation we inherited in 2010 across the public finances was dire. There is no question about that, nor any point in arguing about it. Not only was it dire but, in defence, there were unfunded procurement programmes going forward which we estimated at some £30 billion to £60 billion. It was an estimate, since nobody could tell us what the funding was because it was so chaotic.

The last, coalition Government, and Philip Hammond in particular—for whom I worked—brought defence spending under proper control. They should be congratulated on that and on the SDSR as well. They had the assistance of the Liberal Democrats. I see the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, in his place. He was also there with me. SDSR 2015 is a step in the right direction but we need to go a lot further. Other people have said so too.

My noble friend Lord Jopling, who is not now in his place, talked about Russia. I will not cover other strategic threats but let us home in on that. Nobody has been held to account for the murder of Litvinenko 10 years ago—not a mile from here—nor for the downing of a civilian airliner over Ukraine by Russian missiles. The Baltic states have a joke: “Visit Russia, before Russia visits you”. They are worried, and with good reason. The other threat, closely linked to Russia, is from cyberattacks. We have heard about whatever happened during the US election. We have heard about Montenegro. These attacks are non-stop, asymmetric and will grow.

I say to my noble friends on the Front Bench that the situation has changed. When I joined the Army in 1974, we had a complement of 150,000 or so. Some 55,000 were in West Germany, with tanks, missiles, tactical nuclear weapons and aircraft facing the East. We spent about 5% of our GDP on defence throughout the 1980s. Now it is around 2%. I will not dwell on how this is accounted for. We have only a vestige of the BAOR left. We do not expect invasion forces crossing the Elbe or the Rhine, but we should expect asymmetric warfare, as it is called, be it by “little green men” such as we saw in Crimea and the Ukraine, or by undermining the Baltic states by winding up their Russian minorities. We should remember that the Baltic states are guaranteed by Article 5 and an attack on one is an attack on all.

As a country, we need a bigger stick, as does NATO. Much has been heard about how NATO’s spending should rise; of course it should. We need to up our spending as well. I pay tribute to the Government—although it might not seem like it—and especially to current Defence Ministers. I know what they think, but we need to go further. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had rather a bad week last week, but I believe he understands the need to spend more on defence.

We need to educate our public, our politicians and government Ministers that defence is the first duty of government. There is always the danger that old men—and there are quite a few in this place—look back through rose-tinted spectacles at the good old days. We need a balance and to understand history. We could draw analogies with the 1930s, to which the noble Lords, Lord Hannay and Lord King, have referred. There is some validity in this—disarmament, isolationism, aggression and invasion of small parts of countries, such as the Sudetenland. I urge my Government to up defence spending so that the Armed Forces feel valued; so it becomes an attractive career for young men—and women; and, most of all, to ensure that British interests are safe in this deteriorating world situation. The first duty of government has always been the defence of the realm. We all need to remember that.

HMS “Queen Elizabeth”

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Thursday 2nd March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the initial operating capability for carrier strike, which is scheduled for no later than December 2020, will consist of one carrier, one squadron of Lightnings and Crowsnest. As the noble Lord will know, the carriers will operate as part of a maritime task group which will be tailored to meet the required task, so the precise number and mix of vessels deployed will have to depend on the operational circumstances of the time. We will be able to draw from a range of modern and highly capable vessels to support the carriers, such as the Type 45 destroyers, Type 23 frigates, Astute class submarines and, in the longer term, Type 26 frigates.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, given that the Royal Navy is fully deployed on standing tasks, can the Minister explain from where these extra ships will come to form a carrier task force, should HMS “Queen Elizabeth” be deployed?

[Earl Howe]

We have many of these ships at the moment. We have the Type 45 destroyers and the Type 23 frigates; the Astute class submarines are coming off the production line, so we will have those; and as I say, in the longer term we will have the Type 26 frigates. The plan is to cut steel for the first one this year.