Sentencing
Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts(13 years, 7 months ago)
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The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from “House” to the end of the Question and add:
“deplores the previous Government’s failure to tackle the national scandal of reoffending and its mismanagement of the justice system; notes that discounts for guilty pleas have been an established principle of common law for decades, and that they can speed up justice and spare victims and witnesses the ordeal of waiting and preparing to give evidence at trial; and welcomes the Government’s intention to overhaul sentencing to deliver more effective punishment for offenders and increased reparation for victims and to reform offenders to cut crime.”
I welcome the shadow Secretary of State’s coming to the Dispatch Box and moving the motion, which took me rather by surprise when it was tabled at the last minute last week. At one point, he gave a clear exposition of the opinions of the Leader of the Opposition on the encouragement that is given for an early guilty plea. No doubt we will discover at some stage how many days ago the Leader of the Opposition came to that conclusion, but I think it is rather more the right hon. Gentleman’s than his leader’s.
The shadow Secretary of State also, quite fairly sometimes when giving way to interventions, said that there were substantial parts of the proposed reforms with which he was in broad agreement with the Government, and he offered to work with my colleagues and me in that regard. However, he tried to get away from that by saying that he would support me if it were not for the reductions in public expenditure in my Department to which I am submitting. I regard it as being in the national interest to make reductions in public expenditure in most Departments. If the right hon. Gentleman believes that my Department should be totally exempt from any reductions in public expenditure at all, perhaps he would indicate in which other part of the public service he would volunteer reductions. With respect—I do not normally tender such advice—the weakness of the Labour party is that it does not have the first idea when it is going to stop denying the need for any reductions in public expenditure. There are some perfectly reasonable reductions to be made in the criminal justice system, but that is not the principle motive for reform. The principle motive is to make the criminal justice system better and to tackle some of the problems we have inherited, as my right hon. and hon. Friends have touched on.
Mr Clarke
The right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) was very generous in giving way and we all appreciated that, but there will be no Back-Bench speeches if I give way too frequently. I will give way in a second.
Let me get one thing out of the way first. I have always believed, along with every sensible person, that Britain needs a criminal justice system that is effective in properly punishing offenders for their wrongdoing and in protecting the public from further crime. When I took office as Justice Secretary it seemed to me perfectly obvious that that had to be the first priority for all my policies. That is self-obvious; it is a platitude. The Government’s policy, and my first duty, is to punish crime and have an effective system for protecting the public from further crime. The problem that I face, which causes the reforms, is the fact that I inherited a system that was not effective in protecting against offenders’ committing further crime or even in punishing offenders. So that is at the forefront of where we are going.
Without going over all the exchanges that we have just had, let me explain briefly what we have taken over, which causes the need for the proposed reform. Our prisons are pretty nasty, unpleasant places, far from the holiday camps they are sometimes made out to be. The people in most of them pass their days in a state of enforced idleness, quite a few of them making some tougher friends than they have had in the past, and not facing up to what they have done. That is not what I think of as a satisfactory and effective punishment. But a bigger scandal still is our system’s failure to protect the public from future crime committed by offenders after completion of their time inside. Reoffending rates in this country, as we have taken over the system now, are straightforwardly dreadful.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
The Secretary of State has made much of the fact that short-term prison sentences lead to higher rates of reoffending than longer-term prison sentences. Given that his proposals now are to give people a 50% discount on their original sentence, plus they will be let out 50% of the way through their time in prison, and given that short sentences do not work, as he says, why is he so determined to make long prison sentences into short prison sentences?
Mr Clarke
The point that I make is not the one that hair-splits the variations between different forms of sentence. All our reoffending rates are very bad. I have no intention of addressing the sentencing tariffs for any offence in this country. I have no proposals for reducing the overall powers of the courts to deal with any crime. What we are talking about is the difference between someone who pleads guilty, particularly at an early stage, and someone who makes the witnesses and the victims go through the crime. That is what I will address.
Ever since I published the proposals five months ago, although we have not faced any clear alternatives or views from the Opposition, I faced a debate about my apparent desire to let prisoners out and reduce the sentences. I have no such desire; nor do I use statistics to illustrate the need for that. What I am talking about—
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?
Mr Clarke
Let me continue briefly. I want to get on to the quite small proposal in our overall reforms that this debate and the publicity of the past few days have focused on. Let me explain what the reoffending problem is, because that is at the core of the Government’s policy and my proposals.
Within a year of leaving jail, half of Her Majesty’s guests will have been reconvicted of further offences. For adults released from short-term sentences the figure is 60%. For young offenders leaving custody it rises to three-quarters. The same people cycle around the system endlessly, costing endless suffering to victims and, for those released from short sentences alone, costing between £7 billion and £10 billion a year to society. That is the key part of the penal system that is not working. I offer this analysis because it throws into sharp relief the record of the Labour politicians who are now criticising bits of our proposed reforms. What I have just described is part of the legacy of the previous Government.
Mr Clarke
Let me finish describing the legacy of the previous Government, then we will move to the more constructive matter of my reforms and I will give way to my hon. Friend.
I have not forgotten, and I am sure the public have not forgotten either, what 13 years of Labour government was like in this field, despite the attempts of the right hon. Member for Tooting to skate over some of it. We had 13 years of eye-catching initiatives, schemes, meddling and prescription that made a complete Horlicks of the criminal justice system. We had more than 20 Criminal Justice Acts. Thousands of new criminal offences were created. Senior judges complained that
“Hell is a fair description of the problem of statutory interpretation”
when talking of this stream of legislation. We had a 39% increase in the number of prisoners in our jails—it was not planned and it was not policy—with the cost to taxpayers rising by two thirds in real terms.
And what for? That was meant to be the embodiment of the policy of being tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime—an attempt to give reality to an admittedly rather catchy slogan. What we got was a sentencing policy so chaotic and badly managed that, as my hon. Friends quite rightly keep emphasising, the previous Government had to let out early 80,000 criminals, who promptly went on to commit more than 1,000 crimes, including alleged murders and one rape. We had a system under which more than 1,000 foreign national offenders were released without being considered for deportation—the total number of foreign prisoners in our jails doubled during Labour’s period in office. We had a system under which offenders serving community sentences in practice usually completed only one or two days of unpaid work each week. Above all, as I keep emphasising, there was the national scandal throughout Labour’s period in office—not a new problem—that the exorbitantly high reoffending rates went completely ignored.
Why was that? A recent quote from the right hon. Member for Tooting is worth repeating, as he gave an extremely good description of what went wrong and what was driving Labour’s policy. Speaking to the Fabian Society about New Labour’s record on this subject just two months ago, he said that
“playing tough in order not to look soft made it harder to focus on what is effective”.
He gets a murmur of approval from the Conservative Back Benches, and certainly from those of us who had to witness the effect of that policy.
Let me move on to our proposed reforms, including the one to which the Opposition’s motion refers. What are the problems that we are now tackling and that our large package of reforms seeks to address? First, criminal trials are needlessly long, drawn out and expensive. The court experience is often deeply unpleasant and almost always uncomfortable for victims, witnesses, jurors and most people who have anything to do with it. As I have said, at least half of all crimes are committed by people who have already been through the criminal justice system. More than one in 10 adults in prison have never been in paid employment, almost a fifth of prisoners who have used heroin did so for the first time while in prison, and one in five appears to have mental health problems. If we wish to take this subject seriously and really want to protect society and the victims of crime, we must recognise that that is the context of today’s debate.
Fiona Mactaggart
I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for giving way at last. He is talking about practical studies on how to deal with prisoners with mental health problems, such as the work done by the Bradley review. I will go along with him on those issues, but I do not understand what studies he has done on the precise issue that we are debating today and on the effectiveness of early guilty pleas. It is clear that already two thirds of Crown court cases that result in a conviction involve people who have pleaded guilty. More than 10,000 of those cases in 2008-09 were at the door of the court but could easily have been dealt with in a magistrates court. Why is he not acting to ensure that those guilty pleas happen in a magistrates court, rather than having this widespread policy that will lead to violent criminals being let off?
Mr Clarke
On Lord Bradley’s report and the problem of mentally ill people in prison, it seems plain from the hon. Lady’s intervention that she agrees with me. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health and I are working on ways to divert people from prisons, in proper cases and with proper protection of the public, to places where they can be more sensibly and suitably treated. In that respect the hon. Lady and I are in total rapport.
What I am suggesting about the system of guilty pleas, and the reason I have described the unpleasantness of going to court for most people who unwillingly go there as victims and witnesses, is that although most cases wind up with guilty pleas, more should do so and far too many such pleas are made ages after the event and at the last possible moment. I shall explain in a moment how we are addressing that problem, because the long-standing system we have at the moment is not working well enough.
Mr Kenneth Clarke
Let me just take our proposal on early guilty pleas. Let me get into that. I am sorry to be unkind to my hon. Friend, but I have to bear in mind the people trying to be called, otherwise there will be no BackBenchers’ debate, and as someone who was until recently a Back Bencher for many years, I always used to find it irritating when we had a short Opposition day debate.
Mr Clarke
An advantage the hon. Gentleman will have one day.
From the proposals of the right hon. Member for Tooting, I cannot quite see any difference in principle between the two sides of the debate. It is, and always has been, a well recognised and fundamental practice in this country that those who lie their way through a trial and are ultimately found guilty should face a greater punishment than those who own up early, take responsibility for their crime and commit to making amends. That has taken place for at least the past 40 years. I suspect that anybody here who does enough research will find that, for the past century, people who fought it out and braved it out got a longer sentence than those who put their hands up early and pleaded guilty.
What is the purpose of that practice? The public are sometimes startled when they hear that that is the practice, though it always—always—has been in the courts of this country. The purpose is, as we have already stressed, because of the situation of victims and witnesses, above all. No one should underestimate the relief that is felt by anybody who is a victim of crime and has complained to the police about it when they are told that the offender is going to admit to it, and that they, the victim, are not going to be put through an ordeal in court. The witnesses feel equally relieved. It is far, far worse when someone fights on, because often the victim finds that on public evidence and in a court of law they are being accused of lying, of bad behaviour, of promiscuity or of whatever it is that the defendant is trying to run. That is why the justice system of this country has always included the practice. It also saves an awful lot of police time, an awful lot of Crown Prosecution Service costs and everything else.
Mr Clarke
I will give way on that point, but I just say finally that it is a pity practising lawyers have always referred to the practice as the guilty plea “discount”, because that is not actually the best way of explaining it to a sensible member of the public. I give way to my hon. Friend at last.
Dr Lewis
I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend for his generosity in giving way. He talks about what victims feel, and I always thought that victims felt very unhappy with the previous Government’s policy of letting many criminals out automatically halfway through their sentences. When in opposition we always used to talk about honesty in sentencing, so are we going to change that policy, or are people going to be let out automatically halfway through a sentence which has already been reduced by half as a result of the new measure under discussion?
Mr Clarke
Halfway through the sentence, people are released on licence, therefore they are liable to recall. If they reoffend, they are brought back; they are not free of their conviction for some time. We are going to address not just release on licence or supervision on licence, but what more can be done once people are out of immediate custody in order to increase the chances of their not reoffending. That is where we get into payment-by-results schemes, and that is why I already have a contract at Peterborough prison, which I inherited, and a new one at Doncaster prison, whereby we will pay more to providers who stop such people coming back when they leave prison. That is not for today, but it is a key part of our reforms, and I do not think that any Member opposes it.
Let me move on to what we are debating. We have the decades-long principle of offering for an early plea a reduction of up to one third on the sentence that a judge hands down. The previous Government made that clearer, because they calmly allowed the Sentencing Guidelines Council to spell out the one third, and it was actually made more binding on the courts in 2009. If anybody in the Opposition is against in principle the idea of what I say is unfortunately called a “discount” for a plea, why have they not mentioned it for the past 13 years? Why was the previous Government’s policy based on that principle and on the arguments that I have just raised? Why are we readdressing this?
Mr Clarke
Ah, here we are—somebody who supports the idea. The trouble is that if a discount is not given and the man gets to the court door and finds that there is not much coming off his sentence any more, he might as well instruct his lawyer to have a go and see whether the defence can shake the story. That is why no lawyer has ever objected to the discount for a guilty plea.
Emma Reynolds
The right hon. and learned Gentleman knows full well that there is a big difference between a 30% discount and a 50% discount. Will he turn his mind to the evidence that has been suggested by the Sentencing Council, which says that the 50% plea discount will not bring forward any more criminals to plead guilty? What does he say to that?
Mr Clarke
I do not agree with that. It is not evidence; there are a variety of opinions. However, it is a perfectly good question. We have got down to the fact—I can be precise—that the difference appears to be 17%. That is what we are arguing about. I do not think that anybody in this House has any principled difference whatever on the policy.
The present system is not working effectively, so we have gone out to consultation on proposals that might improve the encouragement offered to people to plead guilty earlier. In over 10,000 cases listed, the trial stops right at the courtroom door; judge, jury, victims, police officers, probation officers are all amassed for a full trial, and then at the last minute the person pleads guilty. Those long delays are wrong, not only because of the cost to the police and the waste of time of everybody attending for any purpose connected with the trial, but because victims and serious witnesses have to endure the uncertainty of it all as they prepare for the ordeal of reliving the trauma of what are sometimes very harrowing experiences.
I hope that the right hon. Member for Tooting will forgive me for saying that saving a bit of cost to the police, the Crown Prosecution Service, Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service and the public purse might be advantageous, although I know that it was not new Labour’s approach. If we could get more of those involved in these cases to plead guilty earlier, an awful lot of victims would feel that they have been better treated by the system.
Sadiq Khan
The right hon. and learned Gentleman has enthusiastically set out the case for why he believes an increase in the discount of up to 50% should be carried through. Does the Prime Minister agree with him?
Mr Clarke
This was an entirely collectively agreed policy on which we went out and consulted, so the answer is yes, of course. The Prime Minister runs a scrupulously collective Government, and I am an extremely loyal Minister much used to collective Government. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman has much experience of collective Government, but I commend the system to him—and to the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), who was of course fiercely embattled on one side in the previous Government.
We agreed that this was a reasonable proposition on which to consult because, as I said, the system that we inherited is not achieving the benefits that the previous Government presumably thought it might achieve when they set it up.
Sadiq Khan
I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for generously allowing me a second bite of the cherry. He has correctly said that the Prime Minister signed up to the consultation, which ended on 4 March this year. He talked about collective responsibility. Can he confirm that last Tuesday morning the Cabinet Committee signed off on this proposal?
Mr Clarke
Even in a collective Government, one does not analyse what happens in Cabinet Committees before coming to one’s final conclusions. I am not going to disclose the contents of the Cabinet Committee’s proceedings for at least 20 years. The right hon. Gentleman will not be surprised to know that we do go to Cabinet Committees, but we have not yet finished our consultation process. [Interruption.] He is persisting, so let me repeat what I asked earlier: how many days ago did he and the Leader of the Opposition decide that they were going to run with this? Was it by any chance connected with the slight flurry of excitement in the media at the end of last week? He and his party, and his Front-Bench team, have not had a policy on this or any other subject to do with criminal justice for the past nine months. Let him study the processes that this Government follow, and no doubt they will guide him if ever he is lucky enough to get into great office.
The current system does not get enough early pleas and is a complete waste of resources. The police, the Crown Prosecution Service and others in the legal system use up millions of hours preparing cases that never make it beyond the door of the courtroom. That has to be changed. The Director of Public Prosecutions, Keir Starmer, has called for
“a reorientation of our approach so that guilty plea cases can be dealt with as swiftly as possible, leaving us to devote our valuable time and resources to cases that really require them. That way we may just begin to tackle the delays that still bedevil criminal justice.”
We are still considering the responses to our Green Paper proposals to increase the maximum discount for the very earliest pleas to one half, and to then have a taper, to encourage the earliest plea and disincentivise the late plea. We received many calm and reasoned responses over many months. There was no loud opposition at all to the principle of the proposal until last week. The rush for this debate is slightly pathetic and slightly comic. I do not know where it came from. I have a feeling that the Leader of the Opposition, not yet having decided what he was for, was wandering the streets looking for a passing bandwagon and prodded the right hon. Member for Tooting into putting down a motion.
Some people are claiming that the proposal is simply to reduce the sentences available for criminals, and that is worrying some of my colleagues. As I began by emphasising, it is no part of our reforms to reduce sentences, the protection of the public or the punishment for serious crime. That is not what the Government or I are about. In response, I say very clearly that judges will continue to have discretion in setting the appropriate sentence in individual cases. I will not shorten the length of sentences available to them in any kind of criminal case. I do not think that the Opposition contest the principle, as has been emphasised. I do not understand the argument that they would be in favour of my reforms if they were not combined with saving public expenditure. That is not a compelling point. Reforms to the efficiency and effectiveness of the system are required.
Mr Clarke
I apologise to the hon. Gentleman, but I really should sit down soon.
Let me deal with what we are trying to reform and why. The former Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), said in the Daily Mail on Friday that I should
“order a wholesale review of how the court system works”.
He went on:
“my own jury experience left me staggered by the sheer waste of time and public money resulting from the chaos in our courts.”
Mr Clarke
After 13 years, they say it is the judges. It is actually that the system does not facilitate the disposal of cases in the best possible way in the interests of victims, the police, the taxpayer and, above all, justice itself.
I have found quotations from the former Lord Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), who unfortunately is not in his place. He is the one who placed a more onerous obligation on judges to follow the early guilty plea guideline. Perhaps he is not here because, like me, he cannot understand what on earth got into the head of the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) in thinking that this was a suitable subject for debate.
I remember the right hon. Member for Tooting declaring in this House that he welcomed plans for a clear sentencing framework. In December he thought that they were
“a perfectly sensible vision for a sentencing policy, entirely in keeping with the emphasis on punishment and reform that Labour followed in government”.—[Official Report, 7 December 2010; Vol. 520, c. 171.]
I pay tribute to him for being so helpful and constructive in response to our proposals. It is a pity that he has been bullied into picking out bits and distorting them in this debate. The principle of a more efficient system of justice is not wrong, and the principle of the early guilty plea is not wrong—I am afraid that it is the state of the Opposition that is really wrong. That is what has brought the debate to the House.
The former Prime Minister’s old speechwriter, Phil Collins, apparently said last Friday:
“Labour don’t have a particularly strong position on crime of any kind”.
Well, we will help them. We have a policy, and it is very clear. We will reform the criminal justice system to focus it on punishing offenders, protecting the public and tackling the scourge of reoffending. We intend to make prisons places of hard work, not enforced idleness. We will get prisoners off drugs, and drugs out of prisons. We will toughen up the current weak and failed system of community sentences, and we will introduce a radical payment-by-results approach that will introduce innovative public and private sector solutions focused on what really matters, which is breaking the devastating cycle of crime.
Philip Davies
My hon. Friend is clutching at straws. The Secretary of State made it clear that as a result of the proposal fewer people would be in prison. That is the whole purpose of the measure. My hon. Friend ought to reflect on the fact that this is an arbitrary proposal, because there is absolutely no evidence suggesting that more people will plead guilty as a result. If that does not happen, will the Secretary of State return to the House in a few months suggesting a three-quarters discount for pleading guilty in order to get a few more convictions? Where will it end? Why not scrap prison sentences altogether? This is a slippery slope. It is ludicrous and not based in evidence.
Most people think that punishment is not heavy enough. It has been estimated that between 2007 and 2009, criminals on probation have been responsible for 121 murders and 44 cases of manslaughter, along with 103 rapes and 80 kidnappings. In total, they were responsible for more than 1,000 serious violent or sexual offences in the two years from April 2006, while almost 400 more suspects are awaiting trial. Most people looking at these figures would conclude that too few, not too many, people were being sent to prison, and most would conclude that people are not being sent to prison for long enough, not that they should be let out even earlier.
As we have heard, a senior judge, Lord Justice Thomas, warned that as a result of these proposals, a rapist facing five years in prison could get off with a sentence halved to just 30 months by pleading guilty earlier. However, because of what the previous Government did, which the Secretary of State appears to support, that offender would then be released after only 15 months behind bars. Fifteen months for a five-year sentence! That is what is happening under a Conservative-led Government.
Mr Kenneth Clarke
The example given by my hon. Friend is fanciful, because the average sentence for rape is eight years. Sentences will vary but in the end the judge will decide what justice and the seriousness of the offence justify. Needless public alarm is caused because the public find it difficult to know what the sentences are. If it reassures my hon. Friend, however, I can say that I would regard someone being released from the prison part of their sentence after 15 months as quite inadequate in a case of rape.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts(13 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con)
2. If he will estimate the number of existing injunctions granted on the grounds of invasion of privacy.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
The Ministry of Justice currently holds some limited data on the numbers of injunctions applied for in the county courts, but they do not allow identification of anonymity injunctions. The Department’s chief statistician is currently considering how robust data on the number of anonymity injunctions issued by the courts might be collated in the future.
Mr Whittingdale
Is my right hon. and learned Friend concerned about the possibility that the large number of injunctions that appear to be being granted on a routine basis suggests that the courts are paying insufficient regard to section 12 of the Human Rights Act 1998, which was intended to protect press freedom? Given that, and given the huge speculation on the internet about the identities of those who have obtained injunctions, does he feel that the time is approaching when Parliament may need to revisit the issue?
Mr Clarke
I do not think any of us know whether the number is increasing. As far as I am aware, there have been two super-injunctions since the John Terry case, but the word “super-injunction” gets used very widely. I realise there is increasing concern, however. I personally have strong views on the secrecy of justice. We have a tradition of open justice in this country. Plainly, I believe in the freedom of the press and freedom of speech in this country, even when it is sometimes exercised provocatively, as it is supposed to be in a free country, but there are also areas where an individual is entitled to have their privacy protected. The time is certainly coming when the Government are going to have to look at this matter, although we will probably wait until we have had the report of the Master of the Rolls, who is looking rather more closely at the procedural aspects.
Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)
The Lord Chancellor is right to remind us that it is important that we get the balance right between freedom of speech and an individual’s right to privacy, but he will be aware of the public disquiet about the use of the anonymity injunction or super-injunction, both in terms of its abuse—or alleged abuse—and its circumvention, for example by the use of Twitter. As he has said, the current situation is not satisfactory, but the Master of the Rolls is simply looking at the process, rather than the substance. What does the Lord Chancellor intend to do about that, so as to provide leadership on this issue?
Mr Clarke
First, I agree that the Master of the Rolls is looking at process, and I am sure what he says will be very valuable. As I have said, we will wait until he reports back before starting to take a proper look at the issue, but I think the Government will now have to study it and decide whether there is a case for intervening. There will never be unanimity on all these judgments, precisely because it is so difficult to balance the competing parts of the convention on human rights and the competing interests involved. There have been cases where we have certainly needed to know—such as where people are disposing of waste material by dumping it off the coast of Africa. That is easy in one direction, but in the other, every time I watch a football team I do not think I necessarily need to know about the sex life of each of the players.
Sadiq Khan
As is often the case, I find myself agreeing to a large extent with what the Lord Chancellor says, but let me say this. Super-injunctions are not granted by European judges using European law; they are granted by British judges using British law, and Parliament has supremacy over that law and those judges. If clarity and guidance is required and suitable, and bearing in mind the fact that we have the draft Defamation Bill and the forthcoming justice Bill, why does he not just say that he will use those vehicles to provide clarity and guidance?
Mr Clarke
We will consider these matters, and it is probably right that Parliament passing a privacy Act might well be the best way of resolving the issue, but we need to get somewhat nearer a consensus and to know exactly how we are trying to strike the balance before something is submitted for the judgment of Parliament. We may well not have to wait until the end of a long, controversial process such as that, and instead find some other way of tackling the issue, but we are considering it and we will come back with proposals in due course. If there were debate on a privacy Bill, there would be an interesting range of opinions even in Parliament, but I have not met many people yet who seem to have the perfect answer as to how to get the balance right.
John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)
Some of these injunctions serve to prevent information from being passed to the police or other regulators. Does the Secretary of State believe the law should be changed so that regulators can always have information passed to them?
Mr Clarke
That is one of the arguments which the judge who decides whether to grant the injunction will no doubt have in mind. Whether it is reasonable and in the public interest for the injunction to be granted is what the judge is meant to try to establish. The question for us is how we can make that clearer and more defensible, and how we can know more about what is happening so that we are all satisfied that injunctions are granted only in cases where the right to privacy of the individual is, indeed, being interfered with unjustly, but I know of the hon. Gentleman’s interest in this topic, and we will bear his views in mind—
Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)
3. What reforms he is pursuing of the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
I will try not to talk this one out, Mr Speaker—although I will be tempted to do so.
Reform of the Court will be a key aim of the forthcoming UK chairmanship of the Council of Europe. We will be pressing in particular to reinforce the idea that the Court’s role is a subsidiary one, which means that states, not the Court, have primary responsibility for protecting convention rights.
Mr Bain
I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. In supporting reforms that cut the backlog of cases and reduce the delays that many people experience in the Strasbourg Court, does he agree with Amnesty International and 270 other non-governmental organisations which have founded a petition to campaign against the introduction of fees in the European Court of Human Rights, as they believe those could, in some cases, represent an insurmountable barrier to justice?
Mr Clarke
I certainly think that one of the things that needs to be tackled and can be tackled without too much difficulty is the thousands upon thousands of cases awaiting a hearing at the Court, many of which are completely outside the sphere of the convention and could be disposed of reasonably straightforwardly. The question of fees will have to be decided in due course by the Ministers of 47 member states of the Council of Europe, but there is not much evidence at the moment that people are feeling excluded from the jurisdiction by the threat of any imminent costs.
Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
There would be very little problem with the jurisdiction of the Strasbourg Court if we repealed the Human Rights Act 1998, withdrew from the convention and replaced it with a British Bill of Rights. Does the Secretary of State agree that it is about time that that happened?
Mr Clarke
If we repealed the Human Rights Act, which is one of the matters being looked at, we would just go back to having the convention applied directly by Strasbourg. The issue attracts a wide range of views, which is why we have set up a commission to consider them—[Interruption.] We have indeed set up the commission. It is composed of serious people who have expressed a very wide range of views in the past on the subject. They will strive to reach a consensus and it will be useful to get a properly informed and expert assessment of what the various options might result in. I am sure that the package of measures recommended by my hon. and learned Friend is one of the matters they will be considering in the course of their discussions.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
4. When he plans to bring forward proposals on the future of sentencing.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
8. What steps he is taking to promote work opportunities in prisons.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
We have made clear our intention to make prisons places of work and industry. In the Green Paper, “Breaking the Cycle”, published last December, we set out our proposals to break the destructive cycle of crime. That included proposals for prison work. Our response to the consultation on the Green Paper will be published soon.
Tony Baldry
Can my right hon. and learned Friend kindly tell me how many more work and training opportunities there are in prisons today than there were this time last year?
Mr Clarke
No, I cannot. [Interruption.] The system requires considerable transformation. We intend to introduce as widely as possible a system in which it is normal for prisoners to have a working day doing proper work, getting into work habits and acquiring skills. We have some—comparatively few—outstanding examples of workshops run by outside companies and we are attracting wide interest from companies in how we can do that. Prison Industries will have to be addressed and we will probably have to put it on a different and more commercial footing. We are looking for work that can properly be done in prison without jeopardising legitimate small businesses outside. A moment ago I was accused of rushing everything. The great thing about such reforms, which will transform the prison system, is that there is no point in delivering straight away experiments that have not been thought through. I intend to change the atmosphere of prisons very substantially once we have got down to practical ways of doing so.
Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)
The introduction of work-based regimes more widely will be warmly welcomed by people who know about rehabilitation, but victims are concerned about reparation. Will the Secretary of State make sure that any wages earned as part of a work-based regime go directly to benefit victims or the communities that have been victims of crime?
Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con)
I welcome my right hon. and learned Friend’s response on increasing work opportunities in prison, but will that extend to more education and training in prison?
Mr Clarke
A great deal of education and training is delivered in prisons now, but it needs to be improved; it is patchy. We are not losing our focus on making sure that the basic problems of literacy and numeracy are tackled, let alone other further education delivered, and we hope to make sure that the contracts for provision of education and training services are of universally good quality.
Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)
My right hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) has a ten-minute rule Bill which would make it mandatory for those sentenced to two years or more to undertake a relevant offender management programme before being considered for early release. Do the Government intend to take those proposals forward?
Mr Clarke
We sentence people to prison terms as reparation for the wrong that they have done to their victims and society, and when they have completed their sentence we release them. Under existing rules they may be released from prison halfway through the named sentence, but they are on licence thereafter, subject to recall, and that has to be made meaningful. I do not want to add to the number of people in prison who are serving beyond any sentence that they have had imposed upon them for the crime that they committed, but who are waiting to go through some loophole which shows that they qualify for release, not least because it is very difficult to organise true opportunities for prisoners to be able to satisfy such requirements.
Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)
10. What steps his Department is taking to involve the charity sector in prison-based initiatives.
Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
I shall begin with a topical statement. On 26 April, I attended a Council of Europe ministerial conference in Turkey on the future of the European Court of Human Rights. I was clear that the Court must focus on truly important cases and have proper regard to the judgment of national Parliaments and courts. I met a number of Ministers from other member states and senior figures from the Council of Europe and the Court who were receptive to this view.
Mr Raab
In a recent and novel ruling, a man convicted of robbery defeated a deportation order on human rights grounds because he had a girlfriend—a relationship that the court described as that of a courting couple and no more. Will my right hon. and learned Friend consider amending the Human Rights Act 1998 and the human rights clause in the UK Borders Act 2007 to prevent this kind of judicial legislation under article 8 of the European convention?
Mr Clarke
I have not seen that case, but I agree that it sounds like a rather sweeping interpretation of the right to family life, which is what the European convention confirms. If my hon. Friend will let me have the details, I will inquire into the case to see how it reached such a startling conclusion. It is possible that the report that he read, in whichever newspaper he read it, did not bear a very close resemblance to what actually occurred.
Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)
The Lord Chancellor has announced plans—this was raised by the previous Lord Chancellor—to reduce by half the sentence for an offender if he or she pleads guilty. In a remarkably flippant response, his junior Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt), asked us to pause and reflect on the thoughts and views of a victim of rape. It is not only Labour MPs who think this is nonsense, nor only judges or victims groups: the Lord Chancellor’s own Commissioner for Victims and Witnesses says that it is bonkers. Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman reconsider?
Mr Clarke
We are going to give the outcome of our consultation shortly, but I think that that proposal is likely to survive. The fact is that we have always had a reduced tariff for early guilty pleas in this country. It always startles the public when they discover that this has underlined our sentencing policy for many years. It is true that we are thinking of putting up the reduction to a half. It makes an enormous difference to costs, police time and the involvement of unnecessary preparations for trial if everybody leaves guilty pleas to the last possible moment. As my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary rightly said, victims and witnesses are put through an ordeal if they are preparing for a trial where they expect to be accused of lying because the man has not been induced to plead at an early enough stage. Those are the considerations that lay behind this proposal.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
T2. Last month, I visited Kirklees restorative justice team, who, in Kirklees alone, need to keep only two offenders out of prison for a year to cover the whole of their budget. However, does the Minister agree that probably one of the most impressive elements of restorative justice is the immeasurable improvement in victims’ perceptions?
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
T3. The Secretary of State will be well aware of the tragic loss of five young lives on the secure prison estate in recent months. Will he outline what work he and his officials are undertaking to look into those tragic deaths, and what measures he intends to put in place to prevent future occurrences?
Mr Kenneth Clarke
We have had an unfortunate instance, but we will obviously investigate each of those tragic cases. Unfortunately, there are always extremely vulnerable people in young offender institutions, and steps have to be taken to protect them against self-harm. I have no reason to believe that anything has changed significantly that connects these deaths. I assure the hon. Gentleman that each and every one of them will be carefully considered to see whether anything went wrong or whether something can be improved.
Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con)
T4. Does the Secretary of State share my concern and that of my constituents that prisoners are not spending their time inside constructively? Will any future Bill address that issue by ensuring that prisoners spend more time at work than in their cells?
Mr Kenneth Clarke
As I explained earlier, I feel that concern strongly. The matter does not so much require legislation as sensible organisation, change in the structure of Prison Industries, and more leeway for governors to arrange work when there is a sensible opportunity to do so. A significant change in the culture of parts of the Prison Service would add to the good work that goes on at the moment, which is quite rare and is scattered across the prison estate. I agree with my hon. Friend that that is an important aim.
Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab)
T6. Earlier this month, the foetal anti-convulsant litigation against Sanofi Aventis was discontinued after six years’ preparation. The claimants and their families have been denied their day in court because legal aid funding was withdrawn at the last moment. Will the Minister say what funding arrangements will be available for multi-party actions in future so that such families are not denied access to justice?
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
Will the Justice Secretary take this opportunity to update the House on his policy on the office of chief coroner?
Mr Kenneth Clarke
We are considering our policy in the light of the debate and the result in the House of Lords. I have been discussing the matter with various interest groups, various Members of another place, and one or two Members of this House. Some of the lobbyists attribute to the chief coroner powers to tackle all kinds of failings in the system that the legislation never gave him or her. We could deliver some of the substantial changes that need to be made to the coroner system rather more quickly by distributing the functions elsewhere, rather than by creating unnecessarily a whole new office. I am considering the arguments. We ought to concentrate on what outcomes we are trying to produce, rather than argue about structures and new institutions.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
Has the Secretary of State read the research commissioned by Lord Ashcroft and conducted by Populus called “Crime, Punishment & The People—Public opinion and the criminal justice debate”? If he has read the report, which I commend to him, will he confirm that its findings, which will make sobering reading for him, will be part of the proposals on sentencing?
Mr Clarke
I shall look at the report to see whether it is the source of my hon. Friend’s views on the subject of crime and punishment, which he frequently gives, and then I will try to find some counter-reading to recommend to him. I will try to study it if I get the chance.
The purpose of sentencing in this country is to punish offenders effectively and proportionately for what they have done. The purpose that I intend to add to that more clearly is to try to reduce the number who simply offend again and come back into the system. If we cut reoffending, it will mean fewer crimes and fewer victims, and we will make a positive contribution instead of recycling the same old people through the same old not very well functioning system.
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
Will the Secretary of State take a look at the case of Shrien Dewani, a British citizen who faces extradition to South Africa? He has shown me convincing evidence that he will not face a fair trial there. Can we reconsider extraditing that citizen?
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
T10. The Home Secretary recently announced her intention for police to do 80% of charging. I can see how that is to the benefit of the police, but has the Justice Secretary had any discussions about how we can ensure that it is not to the disbenefit of justice?
Mr Kenneth Clarke
That too is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, and the question should be addressed to the Home Office first.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
Legal aid to take family cases to court will in future be available only when domestic violence is an issue. Otherwise, couples will be expected to go to mediation. However, mediation may not be appropriate where there is a high degree of conflict, even when domestic violence is absent. What consideration is the Minister giving to how such cases will work after legal aid is removed?
Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)
Prisoners who reoffend cost the UK economy £10 billion a year. Is not the real solution for the Secretary of State to continue his excellent record as a public service reformer by incentivising private companies to rehabilitate prisoners and letting them earn a profit when they cut reoffending rates?
Mr Clarke
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who has worked with me on public service reform in the past. I am glad he shares our objective because, as he says, it saves the economy substantial amounts and reduces the number of victims and further crimes if a higher proportion of those who finish their sentence do not go on to reoffend and get convicted again. The approach that we are adopting to improving the reoffending reduction programmes, which is to pay by results and make it quite clear that charitable and ethical investors can get a return on their capital if they succeed in delivering that objective, is a valuable and innovative way of trying to achieve real results rather than strive needlessly.
Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)
Mr Dean, a constituent of mine, is still waiting after three years for full payment of a compensation award from a persistent offender. What action are the Government taking, and what action will they take, against persistent non-payment of compensation awards by persistent offenders?
Prison Service Pay Review Body
Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts(13 years, 7 months ago)
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The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
I am pleased to announce that the Prime Minister has appointed Dr Peter Knight as Chair of the Prison Service Pay Review Body for three years commencing March 2011, and that I have appointed Vilma Patterson and Trevor Spires as members of the Prison Service Pay Review Body, also for three years, commencing March 2011. The appointments have been conducted in accordance with the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments code of practice on appointments to public bodies.
Judicial Appointments
Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts(13 years, 7 months ago)
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The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
I am today announcing that the criteria for appointing judges who, on appointment, will be authorised to chair restricted patients cases in the mental health jurisdiction in the health, education and social care chamber of the first-tier tribunal will be amended to better reflect the needs of the jurisdiction.
Restricted patients cases involve individuals who are detained in hospital by virtue of a restriction order imposed by the Crown court, or by virtue of being transferred from prison by direction of the Secretary of State. The convention has been that retired circuit judges or recorder QC judges who chair the cases must refrain from chairing cases once five years post retirement has passed. The convention was designed to provide assurance that an experienced member of the judiciary would be involved in decisions on whether to direct the discharge of a patient and the concept of experience was predicated entirely on current experience of criminal sentencing.
The existing criteria no longer provide the most appropriate basis for determining competency for hearing restricted patient cases. While experience of criminal sentencing remains central, I recognise that restricting eligibility to recorder silks for appointment to the tribunal for the purpose of chairing restricted patient cases excludes non-silk recorders with heavyweight crime experience or substantial relevant experience in such areas as restricted patients cases or the Parole Board. I also recognise that requiring retired circuit judges or recorders to refrain from sitting after five years on the panel, in the absence of other factors to suggest they are not suitable, removes individuals with significant and continuing experience of working in this specialist jurisdiction. Deployment of available judges is a matter for the senior president of tribunals.
The changes will increase the pool from which potential chairing judges are drawn, and will retain the services of experienced judges.
Prisons Competition
Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts(13 years, 9 months ago)
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The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I should like to make a statement.
The House will be aware that in 2009 my predecessor announced a competition for the management of five prisons: Her Majesty’s prisons at Birmingham, Buckley Hall in Rochdale, Doncaster and Wellingborough, and the new prison, currently called Featherstone 2, near Wolverhampton, which is due to open in 2012. I am now able to announce the results of that competition process.
Let me remind the House that these prisons were selected by the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) for a variety of reasons. Birmingham and Wellingborough are currently managed by the public sector and were chosen after being identified by the National Offender Management Service as performing poorly. Buckley Hall and Doncaster are establishments that have been previously competed for and their contract is due for renewal. Buckley Hall is currently managed by the public sector and Doncaster is currently managed by Serco.
During the preparations for the bid it became apparent that competition could not produce improvements at HMP Wellingborough without significant capital investment to secure its long-term viability. In the current financial climate, this is clearly not a tenable proposition, so I took the decision to remove it from the competition process. HMP Wellingborough will continue to be managed by the public sector, and will need to deliver approximately 10% efficiency savings, in line with other public sector prisons, over the next four years.
I am now able to announce the results of the four remaining prison competitions. HMP Birmingham will be run by G4S plc. HMP Buckley Hall will be run by HM Prison Service. HMP Doncaster will be run by Serco Group plc. Featherstone 2 will be run by G4S plc. The new contracts will be effective from October 2011 for the prisons at Birmingham, Buckley Hall and Doncaster, and from April 2012 for Featherstone 2. I would like to put on record my thanks to all the bidders for contributing to what has been a challenging contest, which will secure significant quality improvements and savings at all the establishments involved.
The Government are committed to delivering reform in our public services. This process shows that competition can deliver innovation, efficiency and better value for money for the taxpayer, but also that it can do so without compromising standards. Before the bids were evaluated for anything else, they needed to demonstrate their fundamental ability to provide safe and secure custodial services. I can confirm that over the spending review period the new contracts will deliver savings of over £21 million for the three existing prisons. In the same period, the new Featherstone 2 prison will be delivered at £31 million less than the costs originally approved by the previous Government. Cumulative savings over the lifetime of the contracts for the three existing prisons are a very impressive £216 million.
But public protection is not just about how we manage prisons in order to punish people. It is also about how we achieve genuine and long-lasting reductions in crime by cutting reoffending. I am therefore particularly pleased to be able to announce that, for the first time, the contract award for HMP Doncaster will include an element of payment by results in reducing reoffending. Payment by results is central to our rehabilitation reform plans, because it means that we can concentrate on paying for what works to reduce reoffending. The current system funds services, but not outcomes. Providers of services face few consequences if what they offer does not succeed in cutting reoffending, and little reward if they do succeed in cutting reoffending. Payment by results looks to change this by rewarding performance against the outcomes specified in a contract. In the Green Paper I outlined plans to develop this policy further and commission at least six new pilots for payment by results. The contract for HMP Doncaster is an important first step towards fulfilling this commitment.
The new contract price for HMP Doncaster will in itself deliver significant annual savings. In addition, however, the introduction of payment by results means that 10% of the contract price will be payable only if the operator reduces the reconviction rates of offenders a year after they are discharged from the prison by five percentage points. If they achieve this, the contract will, of course, have significantly reduced crime, and for a cost of at least £1 million below what we currently pay. I regard this as a win-win approach. It translates to savings for the taxpayer, lower reoffending rates and a return for the service provider that improves their performance.
I know that Members on both sides of the House recognise the benefits of effective competition—at least I hope they still do. Today’s announcement shows it has a significant role to play in delivering value for money, better outcomes and broader reform. I encourage providers from any sector to rise to the challenge. The public are entitled to expect safety and security and better results to go hand in hand with efficiency and innovation. I commend this statement to the House.
Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)
I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of today’s statement, and I welcome its tenor and how he delivered it. He will be aware that our policy was and is based on what works, rather than dogma. During our time in government, nine new private sector prisons were provided and three new establishments had been opened and run by the public sector, and I recognise that they have played a successful role in our prison system. It is right that we began the market testing that he is reporting on today.
I wish to ask the Justice Secretary a number of questions arising from his statement. First, he refers to the fact that during the bid preparations it became apparent that competition could not produce improvements at HMP Wellingborough without significant capital investment, so may I ask him what plans he has for such investment at Wellingborough prison? How much will be invested, and over what period? Does he understand the frustration of hard-working prison officers and other staff working in public sector prisons that need capital investment when they are compared with prison officers and other staff in newly built or refurbished private prisons? Can he confirm that the decisions on the Birmingham and Doncaster prisons are no reflection on the hard work of prison officers and staff there?
May I echo the Justice Secretary’s comments about the importance of delivering efficiency, innovation and better value for money for the taxpayer without compromising standards? Indeed, he has referred to the £216 million that will be saved as a consequence of this process, which was begun by the Labour Government. Does he therefore accept that the savings he is now championing are actually the fruits of the previous Government’s attempts to improve the efficiency of the Prison Service? Can he confirm that he will reinvest that money in the Prison Service?
The Justice Secretary’s announcement on payment by results is interesting and welcome. He will be aware that we began piloting payment by results in Peterborough, where we were trying to reduce reoffending. However, that is a pilot scheme and we recognised that lessons would need to be learnt before any full roll-out. What lessons have already been learnt from the yet to be completed Peterborough pilot? Can he confirm that Doncaster is a pilot and he will wait to see the results before the approach is rolled out further? His statement referred to the criteria for payment by results. He will be aware that 20% of offenders reoffend within three months of leaving prison and that 43% do so within a year, so will he explain further the criteria by which he will judge “if the operator reduces the reconviction rates of offenders a year after they are discharged from the prison by five percentage points”?
Finally, I wish to ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman about the workers in the prisons that he listed. Staff at HMP Birmingham and HMP Doncaster will understandably be worried about their future in these uncertain times. Does he anticipate any redundancies as a result of his decision? Can he confirm to the House that public sector terms and conditions will be protected under Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations arrangements? In addition, he will doubtless have seen the newspaper reports of contingency planning by his Department to deal with any industrial action that might result from his announcement. We have read that troops have been put on alert. Will he confirm whether that is the case? May I ask what discussions he or his Prisons Minister have had with the Prison Officers Association and others who represent prison staff? Does he agree that it is crucial that he and/or his Prisons Minister should meet the appropriate representatives today and begin a dialogue to avoid the sort of speculation reported in the media from becoming a reality?
Mr Clarke
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, because I was interested to see whether the Labour party was in the position that I thought it was going to be in, and I am reassured by what he said. As he said, putting competition into the system in order to ensure the best standards at the lowest cost to the taxpayer is a continuous policy, and things have moved on an awful long way since I was Home Secretary 20 years ago, when privately managed prisons were a highly controversial subject. We got the first one under way at Wolds, but under Blairism the policy was taken a whole lot further, with all the private finance initiative prisons. As I readily acknowledge, the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) started this tendering process, which we have taken to what I believe to be this successful conclusion. It must be in the public interest and it must be right—I readily acknowledge what the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) just said—that we leave aside stale ideology and dogma, and instead look at what works and what produces the right solutions for the public.
We have problems with the building at HMP Wellingborough. It is not a terribly old building—as I recall, it is largely a 1960s construction—but we are under notice that something has to be done about it and it cannot just carry on as it is. The building is not going to be adequate for very much longer. We are considering what to do about HMP Wellingborough. Its staff are responding very well to the problems that they face, but I hope to be able to come back soon to announce what will happen at Wellingborough.
The contract for Birmingham prison is now going to G4S. I acknowledge that the staff at Birmingham have made considerable efforts and that they put in a good public sector bid as part of the tendering process, but the fact is that that process is objective and the private sector bid was just better, and somewhat less costly. On the right hon. Gentleman’s later comments, the National Offender Management Service will, of course, have high regard to the interests of the staff at Birmingham. A new prison is opening not far away, which may offer some opportunities, but we will give all the appropriate support and hope to avoid an unnecessary number of redundancies.
Payment by results was indeed initiated at Peterborough by the previous Government, and we strongly support that worthwhile experiment. The only political claim that I would make is that I believe the previous Government responded to the policies suggested by the then Conservative Opposition in advocating payment by results. We suffered the fate that often happens to Opposition parties—I hope that this will happen to the right hon. Gentleman, too—of putting forward good ideas which then get stolen by the Ministers in power. However, at least we are at one on this policy.
The Doncaster scheme is another pilot. For the first time, the prison operator is entering into having a payment by results element in the contract; the operator will get extra reward if it succeeds, but it will share the risk with the Government, and will lose if it does not succeed. Five percentage points is what has been negotiated—a somewhat impenetrable figure. It means five percentage points down from the current percentage, so an 8.3% reduction from the current reoffending rate would be required for the operator to be paid.
It is indeed true that we have undertaken contingency planning in case we get the wrong sort of reaction to today’s announcement, although of course we very much hope that we shall not, because industrial action will be no more in the interests of prison officers than it is in the interests of anyone else. Contingency planning for disorder in prisons has always been done, as it has to be. It has been done for as long as I can remember, although I think the previous Government suspended it when they reintroduced the criminal law making it illegal to strike in prisons. They carried out an experiment when they lifted the legal ban, but they had a very bad strike in 2007, and put it back again. We have been bringing the contingency planning up to date, but we very much hope that that is a mere precaution. In the interests of public order, we have to ensure that we are prepared in case anything goes wrong in a major prison, but we very much hope not to have to put any of this into effect. We have had discussions with the Prison Officers Association and we are open to further such discussions, and we hope to be able to answer its legitimate queries in any way that we can.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
The Secretary of State’s announcement will be widely welcomed in Wellingborough. Is he aware that the POA there and the management worked tirelessly together, doing so against the national union policy, to come up with a bid that has driven down the cost to £19,000 per prisoner and has reduced the number of prison officers from 147 to 101? Could either the Secretary of State or a member of his team visit Wellingborough prison to see the improvements?
Mr Clarke
I join my hon. Friend in congratulating the staff at Wellingborough, because they face a difficult situation, given the uncertainties caused by the unsuitable and deteriorating buildings in which they are operating. They certainly have succeeded, and my hon. Friend the Prisons Minister says that he can certainly take up the invitation to visit to see what they have achieved. I hope that the uncertainties will be resolved as soon as possible, but obviously it is difficult to find money for a large capital programme, which is what Wellingborough really needs.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
As the Prisons Minister at the time the decision was made to undertake the market testing, I can confirm that we not only undertook the market testing but encouraged public sector bids. Now that those public sector bids have failed in Birmingham, could the Justice Secretary tell the House what will happen to the assets of Birmingham and Doncaster prisons? What is the cost of the TUPE arrangements? Will it be borne by the private sector contractor? If there are redundancies, will it be the Ministry of Justice that bears them?
Mr Clarke
The right hon. Gentleman was indeed involved in the competition process, so he cannot start protesting—however mildly—about the outcome. I assume that he contemplated that either the private or the public sector bids would win, and that is what has happened. The public sector has the contract at Buckley Hall and the private sector has the contract at Birmingham and the other prisons. Serco was already the contractor at Doncaster. To show how ideology is fading, the irony is that Buckley Hall, when it opened, was a private sector prison, but it has been in the public sector and this renewal of the contract has been won by the public sector again. The law on TUPE remains in place, but we are consulting on the wider implications on transfers of ownership from the public to the private sector. The outcome of this competition should be the kind of thing that the right hon. Gentleman was perfectly happy to contemplate when he was party to the decision in 2009.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
I welcome the Lord Chancellor’s decision to build reducing reoffending into the Doncaster contract, but will he assure us that he recognises that that will require the provider to work closely with a range of other organisations, and that they too increasingly need to be incentivised to reduce the reoffending that creates more victims of crime?
Mr Clarke
My right hon. Friend is right. There are two major voluntary parties with which the provider at Doncaster proposes to be in contact, but their names escape me—one is called Catch22 and the other is something else—and there will be local voluntary and charity groups subcontracted below them. Serco will manage the prison and will be the principal contractor, but the delivery that it hopes to achieve will be effected by subcontractors. I have emphasised to those who have attended seminars on this subject that I hope that the operator will deal responsibly with the small local contractors. Serco is entitled to use its bargaining power when negotiating with the representatives of Government to get the best deal it can, but I hope that it will not overdo it when dealing with smaller voluntary and charitable bodies that are also entitled to expect to boost their funds if they deliver the results required.
Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab)
It is important to put on the record the fact that my constituents and staff at Buckley Hall prison in my constituency have been concerned about the process, but I am sure that they will appreciate the stability that should now be provided. The reason why I raise this matter is that, as the Secretary of State pointed out, there has been constant change at Buckley Hall prison, and I hope that this decision will provide some stability. May I have some assurance that the staff, who do an excellent job there, can now get on with that, and that there will be no redundancies at the prison?
Mr Clarke
I think I can give the assurances that the hon. Gentleman requires. As far as I am aware, the public sector bid did not contemplate any redundancies; I do not have that information at my fingertips, but I would be surprised if it did. The provider has won a contract, and it is now up to it to deliver that contract on the basis on which it was won; the provider cannot now backslide from what was offered. I do not think that that is likely to happen, and fortunately, the staff at Buckley Hall now have some welcome stability for the period of the contract.
Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)
I warmly welcome my right hon. and learned Friend’s statement, and I know that he and his ministerial colleagues have been to Peterborough. May I add my voice to the calls to consider the social impact project at Peterborough with a view to extending it across the private prison estate? It could have an impact on prisoner education and in reducing recidivism.
Mr Clarke
I entirely agree with my hon. Friend, and I was immensely encouraged by what I saw on my visit to Peterborough. I have discussed Peterborough widely elsewhere, and there was tremendous enthusiasm for the social impact bond that raised the ethical investment that has gone in to the project and for the determination to deliver it on the part of the St Giles Trust, which is the partner, the YMCA and the other people who are involved. We are finding this enthusiasm reflected elsewhere, and I hope—Peterborough being another private sector prison—that public sector prisons will get equally keenly involved. There are people in the public sector prison service who wish to contract on such a basis. I hope that payment by results will take off, and social impact bonds are one model for raising important capital to get them under way.
Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)
I welcome the inclusion of reoffending rates in the Doncaster contract. Can the Secretary of State assure the House that Serco will not be allowed to cherry-pick which offenders it takes at Doncaster, so that it will be possible to make meaningful comparisons between that establishment and other institutions?
Mr Clarke
I think I can. A cohort will be allocated rather than some carefully selected group, so a positive result will reflect some move in reoffending rates, with the consequent reduction in the number of further crimes and victims. I give credit to Serco, because when I went to Doncaster I broached the subject slightly tentatively there, because we were already in a competition process and Serco could just have proceeded perfectly ordinarily on the basis it had already agreed for the tenders with the previous Government. Yet Serco was positively enthusiastic, and I think it sees the pilot as a way of finding out whether it can enter into more such arrangements elsewhere in the criminal justice system.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
I too welcome the statement from my right hon. and learned Friend. Further to the previous question, in view of the fact that prisoners move around the prison estate, what proportion of a prisoner’s sentence must have been served at HMP Doncaster for that prisoner’s record to be taken into account in the statistics?
Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
The Secretary of State will be aware of the recent report on HMP Bronzefield, a privately run women’s prison. It found seven cases of self-harm per day, one woman who self-harmed 93 times in a month, and one woman who was kept in segregation for three years with very little human contact. Health care was shockingly poor, with no female GPs, and pharmacy services were tortuous and inconsistent. How on earth can it be for the public good to extend private sector prisons?
Mr Clarke
Her Majesty’s inspectorate of prisons does extremely valuable work and over the years has exposed things that can be praised or strongly criticised in both public and private sector prisons. If we look back over the years, we see that no rule and no measure can be produced that shows that either sector is overwhelmingly likely to produce praise while the other is overwhelmingly likely to produce criticism. We must look at the inspectorate’s reports, take them seriously and ensure that where there are serious problems they are addressed. In my opinion—with respect—it is extremely out of date to say that what is wrong in such a case is the fact that the prison is private, whereas when another prison is criticised it somehow does not matter so much because it is public. The whole point of contracting and competition is that one specifies the quality one wants and the right price for the taxpayer, and then the inspectorate system ensures that real failings are addressed—and at the same time, we sometimes have penalties in the contract if providers fail to deliver.
Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con)
I enormously welcome the statement by my right hon. and learned Friend. Given the cross-party support for what he has just announced, what plans does he have to continue the excellent policy of the previous Administration in market testing across the entire prison estate? Will payment by results contracts be extended across other prisons? Finally, will he consider agglomerating PBR contracts in prisons with probation trusts?
Mr Clarke
We are out to consultation at the moment on the Green Paper on sentencing in general and we floated in that the prospect, about which my hon. Friend rightly asks, of having a regular programme of competitive tendering throughout the prison system so that we can revisit quality and cost, in an organised way, gradually over the years. We have not finalised the form, but we will come back in due course once we have finished our consultations and responded, and we will answer his question about exactly what we want to do on that front. Probation trusts are equally involved, I hope, in the development of the payment by results policy. We are as anxious to see public sector bodies involved as private sector bodies. The best of the probation trusts seem to me, in my contact with them, to be quite enthusiastic about becoming involved in such a contracting process.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
The Secretary of State may consider that privatisation is no longer controversial within this House across certain parties, but it is deeply controversial among Prison Officers Association members. He should meet the POA as a matter of urgency, and should look well beyond TUPE for the protection of staff who are currently being made vulnerable by privatisation; otherwise I believe that there will be industrial conflict.
Mr Clarke
I have every respect for the hon. Gentleman’s opinions, in which he has always been consistent. He has always been an articulate advocate, and I almost welcome him as a voice from the past. I realise that the POA is rather stuck in its traditional attitudes towards this kind of thing, but I really hope that it will reflect on what is almost a universal view in this House that we are moving on to a proper, fair, competitive basis for deciding how best to run prisons and at what cost, without being so obsessed about whether they are private sector or the public sector. Of course, the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt) and I will continue our close contact with the POA. We have had to have contingency plans in case anyone is so foolish as to start industrial action—but it is illegal to take industrial action. The sensible thing for people to do is to look at the tendering process and, if they are in the public sector, decide how their prisons can achieve a better score in future. They have won one this time, but it is up to them to put in the best bids as we develop the policy.
Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)
I welcome the statement, and agree that there is consensus in the House about this. I see that three of the four contracts mentioned today are being awarded to the private sector. Could the Secretary of State please advise the House of the percentage of prisons in England and Wales that are currently run by the private sector?
Mr Clarke
The answer is 11%, and that is one of the many things that surprised me when I started in this office. When I was Home Secretary we introduced the first private prison, HMP Wolds, which was regarded as a flaming political issue—we had crossed the Rubicon and it was a dramatic change. One way in which Britain has modernised is that we have inherited a lot of private finance initiative-financed private prisons, and now we have this open tendering between the two sectors across the country.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
To underline his claim that prisons are well run, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman remind the House of the precise number of prisons that are free of the use of illegal drugs?
Mr Clarke
I would not like to guarantee that for any prison in the country. In far too many prisons drugs are, although more expensive, rather more readily available than in the outside world. That is a serious disgrace and I assure the hon. Gentleman that we are working very actively on our plans to begin with drug-free wings and then drug-free prisons. This issue has to be addressed, and people in the service are keen to do that. I hope to come back later this year—as soon as possible—with some announcement of progress on that front.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement. Can he confirm that armed forces personnel are being trained to be deployed to man prisons if the need arises?
Mr Clarke
Yes, and there always used to be military contingency plans, because Governments must have contingency plans for all kinds of disasters. Unfortunately, if people are so unwise as to take industrial action in prisons, the situation can rapidly become far worse than in a normal strike because we start getting disorder among the prisoners. We have updated those contingency plans, and the military are indeed involved, but I should make it clear that no one is contemplating a military takeover of any prison. The Prison Service and prison governors would still be in charge. None the less, it is only prudent to make sure that we have the military preparedness that could, but almost certainly would not, be required. It has not been required in living memory, because one begins by using management staff and other teams that have been drafted in. Only in extremis would one start using the military for perimeter guarding and that kind of thing.
Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)
Following on from the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), when the Secretary of State meets prison officers will he give them a guarantee regarding TUPE? He seemed a little vague at the beginning. Will he give an assurance that TUPE arrangements will apply not only in the present circumstances but in the whole period of this Parliament if there are any further changes?
Mr Clarke
TUPE is part of the law of the country, but the hon. Gentleman probably knows that there is currently a consultation about TUPE-related agreements that have previously been in existence in relation to transfers from the public sector to the private sector. I am not anticipating the outcome of that consultation, which is why I gave the answer I did.
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
Does the Secretary of State agree that localism is as important in the prison sector as anywhere else, and that there is a risk that if a very small number of very large conglomerates take over the running of all the private prisons, the voluntary sector, social enterprises and charities will be excluded from taking part in the exciting rehabilitation agenda that the Government are pursuing? How can he ensure that does not happen?
Mr Clarke
I agree that localism is extremely important in this field, and I think it will be preserved because of the process whereby major contractors subcontract to voluntary and charitable groups. The relevant voluntary and charitable groups are different from place to place, and some of them are quite local. The people who set up the arrangements in Peterborough dealt with a collection of voluntary and charitable bodies quite different from those dealt with by the people who negotiated the contract at Doncaster, because local services and local ideas for tackling reoffending are different. I very much hope that, as the hon. Gentleman says, we shall keep that quality of local enthusiasm and commitment when we rope voluntary, charitable and third sector people into tackling reoffending.
Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con)
Will the Secretary of State tell the House how many contracts awarded to private sector contractors have been terminated due to poor performance?
Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con)
I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend is aware that not only Featherstone 2 but Featherstone and Brinsford are in my constituency. The latter two are excellent prisons because of the dedication and commitment of their prison staff. Can he assure me that the same levels of training and support offered to the prison officers at those two prisons will be offered to the staff at Featherstone 2?
Mr Clarke
That is provided for in the contract and I very much hope it will be the case. Like my hon. Friend, I have great optimism about the future of Featherstone 2. It is very good that we have that kind of investment coming on stream so that we can help to modernise the service in all possible ways. The proper training and support of staff is a key part of delivering the contract properly.
Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)
I congratulate the Secretary of State on his statement, and I particularly welcome the savings to the taxpayer. Some would have argued in the past that they would lead to a lower- quality service, so can he tell us whether Her Majesty’s inspectorate of prisons has shown any differences in recent reports between the quality of private sector and public sector prisons?
Mr Clarke
As I have said, I do not think it is possible to draw general conclusions such as “private sector good, public sector bad”—or vice versa—in any area. The regime at the best private prisons is very good and is hard to match in the public sector, and the savings are very considerable and useful. Sections of the media are enjoying themselves by constantly accusing me of letting people out of prison, but as far as I am aware I have not let anyone out of prison. I rather prefer cutting the costs of running prisons to letting prisoners out, and we are cutting costs in an extremely sensible way that should raise quality and performance in the Prison Service.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
I strongly welcome the awarding of two of the prison contracts to Crawley-based G4S. Can the Secretary of State say how long the contracts are for, and what reviews of performance will take place throughout the contract and over which periods?
Mr Clarke
G4S has done very well in this particular round. It had some strong competitors, which will no doubt come back in future rounds when we arrange them. The contracts are for 14 years, but are reviewable after seven years so that performance can be checked at that stage. I wish G4S well in delivering the very strong bids that it put in.
Mr Speaker
I thank the Secretary of State and colleagues for their co-operation.
Bribery Act 2010
Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts(13 years, 9 months ago)
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The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
The Bribery Act 2010 is an important piece of legislation which seeks to tackle the scourge of bribery in international commerce.
Last year, as part of the preparation for implementation of the Act, we consulted on statutory guidance about procedures that commercial organisations can put in place to reduce their exposure to bribery and understand the Act. The guidance cannot of course change the substance of the Act, but the consultation did yield a large number of practical suggestions for its improvement, some of which I have taken up.
I am now confident that the guidance will prove a useful tool which will help prevent businesses from going to unnecessary lengths to comply with the law, and having consulted the Scottish Ministers, I am publishing it today under section 9 of the Act.
The guidance remains centred on six key principles and is intended to assist businesses of all sizes and in any sector or market. In particular it makes it clear that anti-bribery procedures should be proportionate to the risk of bribery and to the size and structure of an organisation. I am also publishing a much shorter guidance document which summarises the key principles of the guidance and which sets out essential messages about the Act. This is designed to be of assistance to smaller businesses in particular.
Both the section 9 guidance published as “The Bribery Act 2010 Guidance about procedures which relevant commercial organisations can put in place to prevent persons associated with them from bribing (section 9 of the Bribery Act 2010)” and the shorter guide published as “The Bribery Act 2010 Quick start guide” will be posted on the Ministry of Justice website today along with a Government response to the consultation. Copies will also be placed in the Libraries of both Houses.
In order to allow a period of three months for businesses to familiarise themselves with the guidance before the Act comes into force I intend to commence all the provisions of the Act that are not yet commenced on 1 July 2011.
The Government have also decided that a conviction of a commercial organisation under section 7 of the Act in respect of a failure to prevent bribery will attract discretionary rather than mandatory exclusion from public procurement under the UK’s implementation of the EU Procurement Directive (Directive 2004/18). The relevant regulations will be amended to reflect this.
The implementation of the Bribery Act 2010 will ensure that the United Kingdom is at the forefront of the battle against bribery, allowing the country to tackle corruption without being burdensome to legitimate business.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts(13 years, 9 months ago)
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Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab)
1. What plans he has for the future of the Land Registry; and if he will make a statement.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
The findings of the feasibility study of the options for greater private sector involvement in the delivery of Land Registry services have now been reported to Ministers. Given the registry’s importance in the housing market, we must give thorough consideration to those findings before making any decisions or announcements about its future direction.
Liz Kendall
The Land Registry provides a state guarantee of title for land ownership covering registered property worth more than £2.5 trillion across England and Wales. Can the Secretary of State confirm that previous reviews conducted by both Conservative and Labour Governments have found the registry’s public sector status to be crucial to the impartiality and integrity of its work? Will he agree to meet me to discuss the future of this vital service, which is a cornerstone of the housing market and the wider economy?
Mr Clarke
I agree that the registry’s state guarantee of title to land and property is essential, and that it must be retained in any arrangements that we make. Previous investigations of the registry have featured all the options that we are considering now, including the possibility of involving private sector partners—indeed, I have the original operational efficiency programme for 2008, which refers to private sector opportunities. We will, however, proceed with great care.
I know that the hon. Lady has a constituency interest because there is an important branch of the registry in Leicester. I, or one of my colleagues, will meet her in due course, once she has given us a little time to consider the findings of the feasibility study.
Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
I recently met local representatives of the Public and Commercial Services Union from the Nottingham branch of the Land Registry. Unsurprisingly, they expressed concern about not only their own futures but the future of the service. What discussions is the Secretary of State having with staff trade unions to ensure that their valuable expertise and experience are taken into account in shaping the future of the service?
Mr Clarke
We will certainly take account of all staff comments, and we hope to include the staff in our consultations. If there were any question of any change in the registry’s status, we would embark on a full and careful consultation before taking action. We are pursuing the same objectives as the last Government: guaranteeing title, improving efficiency, lowering costs, and taking advantage of the opportunities provided by the Land Registry system to offer further service to the public.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
2. What steps he is taking to increase educational opportunities in prisons.
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)
3. What the evidential basis is for his proposals on the future of universal jurisdiction.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
Requiring the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions before an arrest warrant can be issued does not affect in any way the principle of universal jurisdiction or the Government’s commitment to that principle in the future. The reason for making this change is that at present a warrant can be issued where there is no realistic prospect of a viable prosecution.
Yasmin Qureshi
As the Lord Chancellor will know, universal jurisdiction is an ancient civil right: it is the right of an individual citizen to take court action against somebody suspected of committing a war crime. In the last 10 years, only 10 such applications for arrest warrants have been made, and only two of them were successful. As the Lord Chancellor will be aware, these arrest warrants are issued by the chief district judge for the London petty sessional area. In light of the fact that only two of these applications have been successful, why are the Government considering abolishing this ancient principle?
Mr Clarke
It is not being abolished. First, universal jurisdiction is not as old as suggested, but we welcome the application for, and enforcement of, universal jurisdiction here just as much as the previous Government did. The trouble at present is that the test for issuing an arrest warrant is so low that it is possible for a warrant to be issued when there is not the faintest chance of any serious prosecution going ahead. While I understand the feelings behind some of the applications, there is no doubt that publicity is being sought rather more than a prosecution, and the likely targets are people such as Israeli or Sri Lankan politicians coming here whom dissident groups want to be arrested. The DPP can act promptly, and we will enforce the law when there is a genuine case for a prosecution. Indeed, one Afghan warlord has been successfully prosecuted in this country and is currently in prison.
Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
In the DPP’s evidence to the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Public Bill Committee, he said about assessing such applications:
“We have people who can work around the clock and we have enough trained people so that someone is always available.”––[Official Report, Police Reform and Social Responsibility Public Bill Committee, 20 January 2011; c. 126, Q241.]
Can the Lord Chancellor confirm that it will be possible for cases to be submitted in advance of a suspect travelling to the UK so that decisions can be made in time to act?
Mr Clarke
I will check with the DPP, but I am almost certain he will confirm that that is the case, because I have had assurances from his officials that they are ready to act very quickly. In a proper case, they should act quickly and a warrant should be issued, but at present the fact that warrants can be comparatively easily sought and occasionally obtained is deterring people from coming to this country who are politically controversial but probably not guilty of any war crime or crime against humanity. Indeed, over the years attempts have been made to arrest people such as Henry Kissinger.
Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)
The Foreign Secretary gave a very direct answer to my question last week on the same subject. He explained that the Government are changing the law in order to be able to talk to the Israeli politician Tzipi Livni. Does the Justice Secretary really think the request of one foreign Government is a good enough reason for changing the entire law in the UK?
Mr Clarke
The case of Tzipi Livni is a very good example of why the law needed to be changed. She was the leader of the opposition when an attempt was made to get an arrest warrant. It was believed she was in this country, but in fact she was not. However, she was a leading Israeli politician coming here for political purposes, and it is in the interests of our country that we have negotiations and discussions with a wide range of political representatives from many countries. If guilty of war crimes, they will be prosecuted, but we put people off coming here if they are liable to have publicity-conscious arrest warrants served on them.
Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)
4. What plans he has for the use of innovative community sentences as an alternative to custody; and if he will make a statement.
Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con)
9. Which organisations he has met to discuss the draft Defamation Bill.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
Prior to the publication of the draft Defamation Bill, my Department carried out informal consultations with a wide range of interested parties. Since the draft Bill was published on 15 March my right hon. Friend Lord McNally has held meetings with a number of these parties to discuss their initial reactions to the draft Bill, and further meetings will take place during the consultation period.
Jessica Lee
In explaining the difficulties of defamation litigation to my constituents in Erewash, does my right hon. and learned Friend agree with the President of the Supreme Court, Lord Phillips, who stated that when defamation cases can be so complex,
“jury trial simply invites expensive interlocutory battles”?
Mr Clarke
I agree with my hon. Friend and her quotation. Jury trial is rarely used in defamation cases, but it greatly adds to the length and the cost when used, so there is a wide consensus that it is not usually appropriate. It also cuts out the ability of the judge to settle a lot of preliminary points before going on to the full hearing, in a way that cuts down costs and speeds up justice for all parties. So far, there has been a favourable reaction to our proposals that in defamation cases there should be a presumption against jury trial. That has nothing whatever to do with the coalition Government’s commitment to the use of jury trial in criminal cases.
Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)
But does the Lord Chancellor accept that one organisation that he will not be able to meet is the organisation of the little man and the little woman, because it does not exist? They are the ones who most often face defamation and malicious or inaccurate comments and reports, as do even right hon. and hon. Members occasionally, difficult as that may be to believe. Do we not need a small claims court for libel cases which could quickly and expeditiously, at a low cost in damages and expenses, deliver remedial justice, apology and correction?
Mr Clarke
I think we need low-cost, quicker, simpler and more efficient procedures in most of the civil justice system. The statement that I hope to be allowed to make at half-past 3 will take that further in various ways. Defamation has never been eligible for legal aid, but anything that simplifies the process and gets more matters treated as preliminary questions will make it more accessible to the ordinary citizen when his reputation is unfairly tarnished.
Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab)
10. How many foreign national prisoners he expects to have repatriated in 2011.
Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op)
11. What discussions he has had with representatives of the Serious Fraud Office on his proposed guidance in respect of the Bribery Act 2010.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
The Serious Fraud Office has been fully involved in the preparation of the guidance under section 9 of the Act about commercial organisations preventing bribery, as indeed has the Crown Prosecution Service.
Mr Bailey
I thank the Secretary of State for his reply. He will be aware that the continued delay in the publication of the guidance is causing considerable confusion and concern within the business community. Can he give me assurances that the guidance will be consistent with that for other OECD countries and that it will be published and issued quickly?
Mr Clarke
I am as committed to the Act as anyone else. The UK should remain at the forefront of the fight against corruption and bribery internationally. The delay, as the hon. Gentleman calls it, has been the result of consultation to ensure that legitimate business is not faced with additional costs and burdens that are not necessary for the implementation of the Act. We will announce the results of our consultation and information on when we will implement the Act very shortly.
Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)
The United States has expressed concern about guidance watering down the Bribery Act. The OECD is concerned that Britain will be weak on corruption. Business is rightly worried about London’s reputation, as shown by the letter from investment fund managers in today’s Financial Times. Even the Ministry of Justice must be concerned, as it still has on its website an announcement that my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) is the anti-corruption champion. With the head of the Serious Fraud Office warning about weak guidance, will the Secretary of State now wake up to the seriousness of the issue and, with the eyes of the world on him, draw up robust guidance that protects Britain’s reputation and British business?
Mr Clarke
I have been in touch with the United States Attorney-General and with Angel Gurría, the secretary-general of the OECD, and reassured them that Britain’s commitment to the anti-corruption drive internationally is not remotely in doubt. I am happy to join the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), as his successor as a champion against corruption. We are introducing the Act in a way that will enable us to modernise the law and catch corruption without putting burdens and costs on legitimate businesses, which are easily frightened by some sections of the compliance industry into believing that millions of pounds need to be spent on complying with it and that perfectly ordinary hospitality has to be banned. It has other fears that we hope to be able to dispel.
Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con)
12. What progress he has made on reform of legislation on squatting.
Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
In recent years, the threat of costly libel actions has begun to stifle scientific and academic debate and impede investigative journalism. I have therefore published proposals for long-overdue reform of our defamation laws. The draft Defamation Bill will fulfil the coalition’s commitment to protect free speech and restore important civil liberties after a decade of neglect under the last Government. It will mean that anyone who makes a statement of fact or expresses an honest opinion can do so with confidence, but it will also restore a sense of proportion to the law, ensuring that people can defend themselves against untrue allegations and that a fair balance is struck between freedom of expression and the protection of reputation. I welcome hon. Members’ views on the draft Bill and on the wider issues raised in the consultation.
Mrs Hodgson
Yesterday in the other place, Members voted through an amendment to the Public Bodies Bill to remove the Youth Justice Board from the list of organisations to be scrapped. Will the Secretary of State confirm that he will accept that defeat? Will he also confirm that he endorses the excellent work of the Youth Justice Board and will no longer seek to abolish it?
Mr Clarke
Another place is taking a very long time to discuss this, quango by quango, and it is rescuing several of these bodies. There is an enthusiasm for outside public bodies in the upper House that I am not sure is totally shared here. We will of course carefully reflect on the debate and vote in another place on the future of the Youth Justice Board. Since it was created—it did a very good job at first—time has moved on; peers kept referring to circumstances that they remember before it was created. We now have youth offender teams who do not need the level of supervision that they are getting from the Youth Justice Board. However, I will see whether any of my former friends and colleagues, and current hon. and noble Members of the upper House, have persuaded me to reconsider the policy.
Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)
T3. The Minister may be aware that the Gaddafi house is a high-profile squatting incident in my constituency. Just this week, we have had two further squats. Will he meet me and my hon. Friends the Members for Hove (Mike Weatherley) and for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) to discuss this pressing issue?
Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)
The Justice Secretary is not afraid to speak his mind, and he has many fans on the Labour Benches as a result. Does he agree that there has been a great deal of confusion on the Government’s policy on the Human Rights Act 1998 and the Bill of Rights? Can he explain in plain, simple English whether his Government are in favour of abolishing, or in favour of keeping, the Human Rights Act, which brought into domestic law the European convention on human rights?
Mr Clarke
I would welcome vigorous attacks from the Opposition on any of my policies. The lack of such attacks might undermine my credibility with certain sections of the House and the outside world.
We have carried out the coalition commitment to set up a commission to investigate the case for a British Bill of Rights. Of course the Government accept the commitments and obligations under the European convention on human rights. The commission will look at the whole range of issues in this subject. Personally, I would like the debate to concentrate on what is more immediately attainable, which is sensible reform of the Court in Strasbourg. That is much overdue. I think that we could command a wide range of support from other member states of the Council of Europe on such reform. Perhaps we might decide on subsidiarity, and on the role of the Court vis-à-vis the Parliaments and courts of member states.
Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)
T4. Will my hon. Friend inform me of whether the principles of joint enterprise will remain after the sentencing review, as they were instrumental in bringing successful prosecutions against a number of people who were involved in the murder of the son of a constituent of mine?
Mr Clarke
I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern entirely. There are people who enter prison drug free and leave with a drug problem. Drugs are more expensive in prison, but sometimes they are more widely available than in the outside world. We are therefore taking steps urgently to introduce the first drug-free wings. Alongside our rehabilitation programmes, we hope to get people off drugs and thereby perhaps get them away from crime, rather than introducing people to drugs when they go to prison.
Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con)
T8. Given the great work that West Mercia probation trust does in Redditch with the payback scheme, which I know the Minister has also visited, will he reconsider the new form of payback contracts, which cover large parts of the country but not necessarily our local communities?
Mr David Crausby (Bolton North East) (Lab)
T7. How will the Secretary of State ensure that the tightening-up of no win, no fee arrangements will deliver lower insurance premiums, not higher insurance company profits?
Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con)
Given the misery that is caused by the drug trade, does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that all those who choose to play a part in drug distribution networks should face a custodial sentence, not least because those who play even what is termed a subordinate role are often indispensible to the making of large profits by drug barons higher up the chain?
Mr Clarke
I agree with my hon. Friend that any connection with the drugs trade should be dealt with by the courts with considerable severity. I invite him to have a look at the Sentencing Council guidelines put out today, which I think he will find are more balanced than some of the reports have suggested. They will actually increase the sentence for the more serious dealers and retain the right to imprison anybody involved.
Some of the comments that have been made have arisen because sometimes very low-level runners, often women, who are themselves drug abusers, are used as carriers by serious drug dealers. The judges and the Sentencing Council have addressed that point. They are consulting and we will consider our reaction, but the guidelines are produced by an independent body, and underlying them continues to be the principle of dealing severely with those responsible for the trade in illicit drugs, about which my hon. Friend and I agree.
Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)
A report last year from the Prison Reform Trust found that children with developmental disorders were being processed through the criminal justice system without their having much understanding of what was happening to them. As a consequence, they were more likely to have a custodial sentence imposed upon them than those who were more articulate and more able to defend themselves. Does the Secretary of State believe that that situation exists, and if so, how does he propose to remedy it?
Mr Clarke
I certainly agree that that is a very serious problem, and we intend to address it. I had a meeting yesterday evening with the Prison Reform Trust, the Women’s Institute and my right hon. Friend the Health Secretary. Our two Departments, together with the Courts Service, the police and the Crown Prosecution Service, hope to set up diversion route services for those who in fact require treatment for mental illness. Often, those people should be diverted out of the prison system and the criminal justice system altogether, both for their good and the good of society.
Prison is often not a suitable place in which to treat mental illness. I am told that no fewer than 3,000 prisoners appear to be in prison largely because that is the most convenient place to hold them while attempts are made to get them care and treatment for their condition.
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)
When the hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr Howarth) and I were in Dartmoor prison together, we noticed that the second most popular prisoner workshop produced excellent plaster garden gnomes. In view of the great and burgeoning success of the film “Gnomeo and Juliet”, will the Minister have a word with the governor of Dartmoor to see what advantage can be taken of that serendipitous circumstance?
Reforming Civil Justice
Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts(13 years, 9 months ago)
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The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I wish to make a statement. I have today laid before Parliament two documents—the Government’s response to our recent consultation on Lord Justice Jackson’s recommendations for reforming no win, no fee arrangements, and a fresh consultation document on proposals further to overhaul the civil justice system. Copies of both documents will be available in the Vote Office and on the Ministry of Justice website. I hope to bring forward legislation on the Jackson reforms as soon as parliamentary time allows.
To many people in this country, the prospect of legal action is an expensive, daunting nightmare. One of the worst features of our compensation culture is that our justice system has increasingly become closed to vast rafts of the ordinary public by legal costs out of all proportion to the dispute or the claim. The proposals that I am announcing today will, I hope, begin to restore proportion and confidence in our system of justice, for both claimants and defendants.
First, following careful consideration of the consultation responses, I have decided to reform no win, no fee arrangements to stop the perverse situation in which fear of excess costs sometimes forces defendants to settle, even when they know they are in the right.
I can therefore announce that the Government will seek legislation to return the no win, no fee system to the first principles on which it was set up. We plan to end the recoverability of success fees and insurance premiums that drive legal costs; to award claimants a 10% uplift in general damages where they have suffered loss; and to ensure that they take an interest in controlling the bills being run up on their behalf by expecting them to pay their own lawyers’ success fee. We will also bring forward our plans to encourage parties to make and accept reasonable offers, to protect the majority of personal injury claimants from paying a winning defendant’s costs, and to allow claimants to recover the cost of expert reports in clinical negligence cases.
I am also publishing a consultation paper that I believe paves the way for the more efficient and effective delivery of civil justice after 15 years of stagnation. The current system is slow, stressful and expensive, and change is long overdue. My aim is to help people to avoid court wherever possible, while reducing costs where that is unavoidable. We are proposing that small-value cases should automatically be referred to mediation so that many people are able to avoid the experience of court entirely; and that the maximum value for small claims be raised from £5,000 to £15,000 to enable more cases to be heard through the simple small claims process rather than a more costly, complicated trial.
We are also proposing: to increase the value below which claims cannot be brought in the High Court to £100,000 so that the county court jurisdiction is extended and the High Court is reserved for only genuinely complex or high-value cases; new measures that will improve the ability of courts to tackle those who evade payment of their debts even though they have the means to do so, while ensuring that those who cannot pay continue to be protected, for example by setting a minimum level of consumer debt at which property could be put at risk for non-payment; and the extension of a successful online system to cut waiting times and legal expenses in personal injury cases, as recommended by my noble Friend Lord Young of Graffham.
We have a duty to deliver a civil justice system that is more equitable, accessible and just. Resorting to the law need not be the long, drawn-out and expensive nightmare that so many people experience today, but could become a sensible and affordable way of resolving disputes in a proportionate manner. I believe these reforms, on which we are now consulting, will help to restore those fundamental values of proportion and fairness in our civil justice system, and I commend this statement to the House.
Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)
I thank the Secretary of State for his usual courtesies and advance sight of his statement, which, on face value, is difficult to disagree with. We accept that the issue of costs in civil proceedings is worth investigating, and did so in government. I note that my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) is in his place. Those suffering injury through the negligence of public and private bodies who cannot afford to fund actions privately must have recourse to the civil justice system. There is a fear, however, that these plans go so far in trying to keep down costs that some claimants with meritorious cases will find it difficult, if not impossible, to find a lawyer to take on their case.
I am afraid that the devil will be in the detail of today’s announcement. I have a number of questions for the Justice Secretary that I hope will tease out some of the detail. He referred to the Lord Justice Jackson report to justify his announcement. However, has he taken into account Lord Justice Jackson’s view that his proposals are a package and should not be subject to cherry-picking, and will he take into account Lord Justice Jackson’s desire to retain civil legal aid for criminal negligence and housing cases currently under threat from the Government?
The Justice Secretary proposes that claimants’ solicitors will be able to recover up to 25% of their costs from the damages that a claimant recovers. He will be aware that the increase in compensation from defendants to claimants will be only 10%, not 25%, and will apply only to general damages, not to total damages. Why should someone who has suffered the trauma of an injury at work be told that the money they have justly received as compensation will go to their lawyer?
Has the Justice Secretary had a chance to assess the road traffic accident portal scheme, which was introduced by the last Government to reduce costs? The scheme uses fixed fees and efficient processing to limit costs, and came into force in March last year. Does he accept that it has reduced costs by half in 75% of personal injury cases? Does he agree that expanding the scheme to personal injury claims would save costs?
The Government have said that one aim of the reform is to reduce the costs that defendants have to pay. Many defendants are insurance companies. In light of that, can the Justice Secretary say what reductions he expects in insurance premiums? Can he confirm whether an impact assessment has been conducted on how the changes affect access to justice, cost to defendants and reductions to insurance premiums? Is he concerned that, although there will be limitations on a claimant’s ability to bring a case and the costs incurred by their solicitors, there will be no such controls on a defendant in defending a case, raising concerns about the inequality between the two sides?
Finally, a fundamental principle of our justice system is proper access to justice. I agree with the previous Government, who agreed with senior judges such as the Lord Chief Justice, Lord Judge, as well as Lord Justice Jackson and others, that the costs of civil litigation were sometimes excessive. We would all like the costs of litigation to be reduced and alternatives to it found wherever possible, but the effect of the proposals could be to restrict access to justice, particularly for those who do not have their own means of funding. It will be on this key issue that we will hold the Government’s actions to account.
Mr Clarke
I welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s agreement with me on the importance of tackling cost. He has focused principally on the conclusions that I have announced today of the Government’s consideration of the consultation on Rupert Jackson’s proposals, which I accept were initiated by my predecessor, the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), under the previous Government. We are trying to get the cost of litigation down.
The right hon. Gentleman talks about access to claims. We are going back to no win, no fee arrangements of the kind that existed when they were first set up by my noble Friend Lord Mackay in the mid-1990s. It was the changes made at the turn of the century that led to the cost escalating to such an extraordinary extent. Among other things, in many cases the legal fees paid by a losing defendant now far exceed the damages paid to the claimant. Indeed, it can be an extremely profitable area of practice if people have some successes. We will keep no win, no fee on the basis of the kind of arrangements we used to have—the kind that are familiar in most jurisdictions. The arrangements that we are proposing to sweep away are unparalleled in any other country and are making litigation too expensive for those faced with it.
The right hon. Gentleman then asked about the cost that can be borne by the plaintiff out of his damages. As he quite rightly said, the 10% enhancement to the level of damages that can be awarded is designed to help plaintiffs and claimants, but it will be confined to general damages, otherwise the figure could be astronomical in some cases. However, the costs that can be recovered—the success fee or bonus paid to a solicitor who has won a case—will be limited to 25%, so they will be kept in proportion.
The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the road traffic accident portal scheme, which has certainly speeded up and helped many personal injury cases. We are indeed proposing to extend the scheme to other personal injury cases, as he suggested.
The right hon. Gentleman asked me what would happen to insurance premiums. The answer, of course, is in the hands of the insurance industry and the competitive market in which it works. We all think, “Oh well, it doesn’t matter: it’s only the insurance company that is paying colossal legal fees”—on top of damages—“in no win, no fee cases,” but that could be one explanation for why car insurance costs have leapt to such an extraordinary extent in this country. I hope to see insurance premiums come down.
Impact assessments were produced at an earlier stage, after Sir Rupert had received wide representations from all sides. We have taken quite a long time getting to this point, and we are pretty clear on what the impact will be. On balance, I think it will be highly desirable. [Interruption.] I cannot read my notes on the last question that the right hon. Gentleman asked.
Sadiq Khan
It was about cherry-picking, and clinical negligence and housing cases.
Mr Clarke
Yes, the right hon. Gentleman raised an important point about clinical negligence cases, which can be very expensive to start. We are therefore making an exception in regard to the non-recoverability of insurance premiums. We will allow the recoverability of such premiums when they are used to cover the cost of expert evidence in clinical negligence cases. We are, however, working with the NHS Litigation Authority with a view to getting the NHS and other defendants to co-operate with claimants to produce joint medical reports. That should narrow the dispute and cut the costs for all parties, making justice more easily attained.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
Given the Lord Chancellor’s characteristic willingness to take what in “Yes, Minister” would have been called “courageous decisions” about success fees, insurance fees, after-the-event insurance and the scope of the small claims courts, will he tell us what he thinks about referral fees and claims farming, which are probably major contributors to the compensation and litigation culture?
Mr Clarke
The Legal Services Board is looking into that whole area. My right hon. Friend Lord Young of Graffham has referred to this as well, and it is an important area that we should look at. We are all in favour of no win, no fee; it has been introduced and no one is ever going to get rid of it, but a rather extraordinary form of practice has now developed at the margins. Claims advisers advertise for people who have had an accident to bring a claim; we see their advertisements on the backs of buses. They pay people to give them their claim if it looks good, and they then sell the claim to a solicitor. Solicitors may then trade the claims between themselves, before bringing a no win, no fee action. If they are successful, they get very high costs and a kind of bonus, called a success fee, on top. That is what makes these actions so expensive. I understand why, in response to consultation, some people defended that system vigorously, but I believe that the whole thing needs examining from beginning to end. As Sir Rupert Jackson’s report made clear, this explains why the whole process has become so frighteningly expensive for so many litigants.
Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)
May I add to the broad welcome from my Front Bench for the decisions that the Secretary of State has announced today? I also add my thanks, as I am sure he does, for the extraordinary work of Sir Rupert Jackson, which underpins them. I should like to pick up on the point raised by the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith). Is the Secretary of State aware that, in my constituency and in many others across the north-west, car insurance premiums for decent, honest drivers with impeccable records have rocketed, despite the fact that the number of accidents and thefts from vehicles has gone down? That is because of the work of those parasitic claims management companies and because the insurance companies, who are complaining about the costs, are themselves guilty of selling on personal data, including the facts relating to a claim, to those companies, often without the agreement of the insured person. Does the Secretary of State agree that we need to close down those claims companies altogether? They are parasites milking the system. I apologise for coming late to this decision; I should have taken it when I was in his seat. Does he also agree that we should use data protection legislation to ban insurance companies from selling on personal data?
Mr Clarke
When I took over the right hon. Gentleman’s desk and chair about 11 months ago, one of the first things I picked up was the Jackson report, which he had commissioned. As he says, it was on his desk, but he had not had time to implement it. I was immediately attracted by its approach to cutting costs, so I am glad that he and I continue to agree on that. I am astonished to hear his description of insurance companies selling claims, although I have come across it. They do not all do it, but this just adds gloss to the strange way in which this has all developed. I am also struck by the huge cost of these practices for institutions such as the national health service, which, in a bad year, can spend about £400 million—little short of half a billion—on legal fees. In many areas of practice, the legal fees are the biggest bill for the defendant. They often exceed the amount of compensation paid to the claimant. The right hon. Gentleman was obviously anxious to reform the system, and I am anxious to do so as well. I am glad to have taken up the baton.
Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con)
Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee received considerable evidence that the massive increase in the cost of libel actions that can result from the use of conditional fee arrangements is having a seriously chilling effect on investigative journalism? Does he accept that the measures he has announced this afternoon are in some ways even more important for sustaining investigative journalism and scientific debate than the measures contained in his draft Defamation Bill?
Mr Clarke
I think that is right. This will have a big impact on defamation cases where people threaten the publisher of something they do not like with enormous costs if they want to defend the action. This is having, to use the jargon phrase, “a chilling effect” not only on scientific and academic work, but on proper investigative journalism. When we put the draft Defamation Bill together with what we are proposing to do in the light of Rupert Jackson’s proposals, the way in which we are setting up no win, no fee generally and the announcements I have made about the jurisdiction of the courts, I think we will make a significant impact on lowering the costs of all this litigation to the advantage of plaintiffs who have a legitimate grievance and of defendants. We are going to stop the whole thing being a high roller’s gamble, which is what it is at the moment, as to whether the other side dare face the risks of the huge costs being piled up the moment a claim is brought.
Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)
Whilst welcoming anything that will reduce the unnecessary costs to lawyers and others, will the Justice Secretary give a reasonable guarantee to constituents like my own, who are generally among the poorest people in Britain, that they will still be able to find legal assistance? The obvious problem with the 25% rule is that it might drive people below the threshold at which lawyers would be prepared to take the cases on. Will anything in the proposals deter people from obtaining proper expert evidence when that is necessary for them to fight their claim?
Mr Clarke
I think that people will think twice, as it were. At the moment, they are lured into making a claim by an advertisement on the back of a bus or in some local office. There are many people with perfectly legitimate personal injuries claims and the method I would wish them to pursue is to go to a solicitor who will consider the reasonable prospects of success and take it on on a no win, no fee basis—on the sort of terms that were always envisaged when we introduced the system into this country in the 1990s. People will have to think more carefully; there will be fewer purely speculative actions; and there will be fewer actions brought in the hope that the size of the legal costs is so great that the other side might be bullied into making an offer of settlement, regardless of their chance of success. I hope, however, that legitimate claims will prosper under a no win, no fee system, which is much closer to the lower-cost systems that other jurisdictions operate.
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)
Thanks to the blame culture that developed under the last Government, one school in my constituency deemed it necessary to concrete over a very shallow paddling pool, in case a child had an accident and the school were sued. Another school considered cutting down all its trees in case children were to fall out of them, injuring themselves so that the school might be sued. I hope today’s statement will be the start of a fresh approach to this compensation culture.
Mr Clarke
I feel strongly, as does my hon. Friend, that we have an unacceptable compensation culture in this country. Like him, I notice it in my daily life. I think that doctors, teachers, policemen and most professional people are constantly concerned about the possible risk of litigation when they do perfectly ordinary things in the course of their daily lives. I dare say that the kind of submissions coming to Ministers are, in comparison with when I first received them, now so full of concerns about judicial review, the Human Rights Act and other legal constraints on what can be done that we are getting further and further away from common sense whereby people can exercise their judgment and, of course, be accountable to the law when they are at risk of breaking it—but only when they are at risk of breaking sensible law and might face litigation at reasonable cost.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
I think that what the Lord Chancellor has said today has cross-party support. May I take him back to his comments about mediation? Is he suggesting that there should be mandatory mediation for very small claims? If he is, we have a problem with the number of qualified mediators. Will he look at this issue because it is all very well referring these cases, but we need the mediators to be able to deal with them?
Mr Clarke
We will make mediation an automatic part of the process if the result of the consultation supports such a move. Of course there will be cases that mediation will not resolve, and in those cases people will undoubtedly have the right to go to court. In the small claims courts we are already seeing a rapid extension of very successful mediation, often by means of telephone conference, which is resolving the smaller disputes.
As for the county court, following our extension of its jurisdiction, we will expect people to go along and be introduced to the prospect of mediation. We are consulting on the kind of people who will be required to conduct mediation sensibly, because, as the right hon. Gentleman says, a certain amount of skill and experience will be required for the process to produce the right results.
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
Has the Secretary of State had time to consider the possible implications for the overall number of county courts of the proposal to rationalise the county court by, for instance, allowing back-office functions to be combined?
Mr Clarke
We have just completed a consultation on our estate, and we have announced the closure of a number of courts. We aim to reduce back-office costs and the unnecessary expense that flows from different jurisdictions. Obviously we keep the proper usage of our estate under continuous review, but I do not expect the proposal to have any significant effect on the future of the courts that survived the consultation that we carried out a few months ago.
Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
I accept the need for rationalisation of the jurisdictions of the county courts and High Courts. I also accept that, ultimately, mediation will be a good thing. However, evidence from the Access To Justice Action Group provides numerous instances in which poor people will be excluded altogether following the change in the no win, no fee arrangements, and I am desperately worried about that. The evidence contains no special pleading. It is excellent evidence, and I ask the Ministry to re-examine it in due course. If something is not done, this will prove to be a benefit match for the insurance companies only.
Mr Clarke
We considered very carefully the large number of responses to the consultation document, many of which opposed changes based on Sir Rupert’s proposals. Most of them came from plaintiff solicitors, but I do not dismiss them on that ground, because I share with those solicitors an interest in proper access to justice. We considered whether modified no win, no fee arrangements could be justified in that context.
There are two questions to be asked: have we affected people’s access to justice, and have we affected the profitability of practices that engage in no win, no fee with a reasonable level of success? Most of the responses that we received dealt with much more complicated questions, but I believe that we have retained proper access to justice while lowering the costs—and therefore, unfortunately in some cases, the profit margins—to more reasonable levels.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
Some of us spend a large part of our professional lives trying to persuade litigants to accept reasonable offers. It is often difficult to explain to them what is a realistic quantum of damages in personal injury cases. Surely, with all the technology of the 21st century, it must be possible to devise a public website that could be updated with whatever decisions the Court of Appeal, the Supreme Court, the High Court and other courts have made in personal injury cases. That would provide a much more accessible and transparent explanation of the quantum in such cases at any given time, enabling litigants to assess the probability of a successful claim and the level of damages that they were likely to receive.
Mr Clarke
If my hon. Friend looks at our proposals, he will see that we intend to provide greater incentives for the settlement of cases. We also intend to impose cost penalties—beyond those that already exist—on those who either refuse good offers or do not meet the reasonable first demands of their opponents, but settlement is always preferable when it is possible.
I think I shall have to discuss with the judiciary the question of whether wider circulation could be given to recent awards of damages. However, I agree that in this day and age it ought to be possible to move on a little from the old days when gossip among members of the Bar about what they considered to be the current tariff for a particular injury was the best way of spreading knowledge about the direction in which the figures were moving. I will discuss my hon. Friend’s proposal with the Lord Chief Justice and others.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
The Secretary of State will know the situation facing families with household savings of less than £15,000, and that families with savings of over £16,000 are ineligible for benefits. Does he not think that raising the bar for access to justice through the small courts from £5,000 to £15,000 may be seen as rough justice for the many poorer families who might want a proper hearing for their case? It will have a massive impact on their household budget, and a much greater one than a larger amount for a richer family.
Mr Clarke
This has sometimes been looked at, hence it has been possible to raise these levels by quite large amounts as they have not kept in line with inflation for the last 15 years. What we are doing in respect of the small claims courts should be of assistance to people of low means, because the small claims courts have been quite successful as a reasonably informal, very low-cost way of resolving simple disputes or collecting straightforward debts which people cannot recover from those who owe them. It is right to extend that jurisdiction so that people are not faced with the daunting prospect of appearing before a judge in a formal court setting, and possibly having a lawyer on the other side and so forth, which comes at the next stage up, at county court.
Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)
On the small claims courts, it is interesting that we are increasing the limit from £5,000 to £15,000. Will personal injury cases now be included, and will the recovery of legal fees be precluded in all cases up to £15,000?
Mr Clarke
We are only consulting, so we are open to arguments about whether or not £15,000 is the right figure; we might put it up further, or we might be persuaded to take it down. I personally think that extending the small claims court jurisdiction is a very desirable thing to do, but it will not be extended to personal injury cases, because the small claims court is intended for quick and easy disposal of fairly straightforward cases. Too many personal injury cases would clog up the system which is meant to be quick and relatively informal and for straightforward disputes.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
Can the Justice Secretary assure the House that all the proposed changes will safeguard the innocent, protect the vulnerable and ensure that access to justice remains the cornerstone of our society?
Mr Clarke
Well, I hope I can answer yes to all those questions. We are talking about civil jurisdiction here; there is no criminal jurisdiction. I think civil justice should be quick, efficient and accessible to most members of society. As the hon. Gentleman will know, most ordinary people regard any question of being muddled up with litigation, or having to go to court, with mortal dread. Middle England—or middle Ireland—feels itself completely excluded from a civil justice system that exists for the very poor, the very rich or the big corporations. We are, I hope, moving in the direction of enabling the ordinary citizen to make some use of the civil justice system again, and without quite as much fear as most people have of it at the moment.
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
Although I think there will be a general welcome for the 10% uplift in general damages, which should help to cover the payment out of success fees by claimants, does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that in a small number of cases where special damages form the lion’s share of an award, there is still a live issue as to the potential erosion of the value of the damages awarded by the payment out of success fees to lawyers?
Mr Clarke
The cap of the success fee—which is a kind of bonus to a winning lawyer who has taken a no win, no fee case—will not be applied to special damages. As my hon. Friend rightly says, special damages can be enormous, such as in cases where the plaintiff has been disabled for life, and if the so-called success fee—the bonus—is taken as a percentage of that, it could be colossal, even though the size of the award might not reflect the complexity and difficulty of the case, but just the fact that the plaintiff was very severely injured. We are increasing damages by 10% of general damages, and we are capping the success fee that the plaintiff will have to meet at 25% of the general damages. Special damages will not be affected.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
Can the Secretary of State confirm that the online road traffic accident scheme will be expanded to cover employers’ liability, public liability and personal injury claims up to the value of £50,000?
Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con)
The tentacles of the compensation culture have wrapped themselves around British life for far too long, and I congratulate the Secretary of State on his proposals. Local authorities and public bodies face paying out more and more, so does he see his proposals as the first step towards a semblance of normality in this area?
Mr Clarke
I hope so. Let me make it clear that I am in favour of people who have suffered injury because of the fault or negligence of somebody else receiving proper compensation. In all those cases, people should have access to the courts and the right to have their case argued in the normal way, but what has happened is that this has become a widely publicised, rather commercial activity, which is having a considerable effect on the way in which many people lead their ordinary day-to-day lives. Let us go back to a sensible system of civil justice which does proper justice to both the claimants and the defendants, and get away from this rather extraordinary way we live at the moment, whereby huge sums can be made, mainly in legal costs rather than in damages, by bringing speculative claims against defendants who cannot afford to defend them.
Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
As those of us still practising can tell my right hon. and learned Friend, the costs associated with civil litigation are of just as much concern in higher value claims as they are in lower value claims, particularly to British businesses which need their rights adjudicated upon. In many jurisdictions, including some in the United States, mediation is compulsory in all civil cases. Will he consider ensuring that that is the position in England and Wales as well?
Mr Clarke
I will certainly consider that, and I am interested to hear about my hon. and learned Friend’s knowledge of the American experience. We are certainly seeking to extend mediation considerably, and we are consulting to see how far we can go in getting people to contemplate mediation before deciding which cases cannot be resolved that way and so have to go to ordinary litigation. I am glad that he welcomes that; we certainly wish to see a considerable extension of mediation and we will go as far as is sensible.
Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con)
I declare my interest as a family lawyer.
Constituents involved in these proceedings are often frustrated about the length of the court process. They can be involved for a long time only for the case to be settled at the door of the court. Will my right hon. and learned Friend set out the steps being taken to case-manage matters at the earliest opportunity?
Mr Clarke
The new portal process should significantly speed up a very high proportion of cases. We will certainly continue to address the real point that my hon. Friend makes as we go on to consult. Quite apart from the dread of the cost, the main experience members of the public have of the courts, be they criminal or civil, is the astonishing amount of time they are likely to waste in abortive visits during a slow-moving process. They will often have to attend the court building needlessly on occasions when the court is adjourned before they can get to be a party, a witness, a juror and so on. I therefore appreciate the spirit of my hon. Friend’s question and we are certainly seeking to address it in this consultation process.
Prisoner Escort and Custody Services
Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts(13 years, 9 months ago)
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The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
I am today announcing that the Government have awarded four new contracts for the prisoner escort and custody services to Geo Amey PECS Ltd ( a joint venture between the Geo Group Ltd and Amey UK plc) and Serco Ltd.
This follows a competitive tender conducted in accordance with Public Sector Procurement Directive (2004/8/EC). Geo Amey PECS Ltd and Serco Ltd have offered the best overall bids in terms of quality of service and cost relative to the other bids received and will take over the service from 29 August 2011 for an initial period of seven years.
The award of contracts to Geo Amey PECS Ltd and Serco Ltd enable the MOJ to release significant cost savings, reducing current costs by 20% on current spend.
The scope of services being delivered by Geo Amey PECS Ltd and Serco Ltd include all inter-prison transfers, the movement of prisoners with mental health problems, extradition and cross-border moves. It excludes all category A movements. The final specification incorporates a number of business changes, including improvements to facilitate the operations of the courts.
Draft Defamation Bill
Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts(13 years, 9 months ago)
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The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
The Government have today laid before Parliament a draft Bill on defamation for public consultation and pre-legislative scrutiny. This reflects the coalition commitment to review the law of libel to protect free speech.
There are real concerns that the threat of libel proceedings is being used to frustrate robust scientific and academic debate, and to impede responsible investigative journalism and the valuable work undertaken by non-governmental organisations. These concerns relate not only to cases which actually come before the courts, but also in relation to the chilling effect on freedom of expression that is created more widely by the threat of costly and protracted legal proceedings against defendants who may often have limited resources.
The proposals in the draft Bill and consultation paper aim to ensure that the right balance in the law is achieved, so that people who have been defamed are able to take action to protect their reputation where appropriate, but so that free speech is not unjustifiably impeded. We also want to look at ways of speeding court cases up, so as to cut the costs involved in defamation proceedings.
The draft Bill contains provisions on the following issues:
A new requirement that a statement must have caused or be likely to cause substantial harm in order for it to be defamatory;
A new statutory defence of responsible publication on matters of public interest;
A statutory defence of truth (replacing the current common law defence of justification);
A statutory defence of honest opinion (replacing the current common law defence of fair/honest comment);
Provisions updating and extending the circumstances in which the defences of absolute and qualified privilege are available;
Introduction of a single publication rule to prevent an action being brought in relation to publication of the same material by the same publisher after a one-year limitation period has passed;
Action to address libel tourism by ensuring a court will not accept jurisdiction unless satisfied that England and Wales is clearly the most appropriate place to bring an action against someone who is not domiciled in the UK or an EU member state;
Removal of the presumption in favour of jury trial, so that the judge would have a discretion to order jury trial where it is in the interests of justice.
Issues which have not been included in the draft Bill at this stage, but on which the consultation paper seeks views are:
Responsibility for publication on the internet. The paper seeks views on whether the law should be changed to give greater protection to secondary publishers such as internet service providers, discussion forums and (in an offline context) booksellers, or alternatively how the existing law should be updated and clarified;
A new court procedure to resolve key preliminary issues at as early a stage as possible, so that the length and cost of defamation proceedings can be substantially reduced;
Whether the summary disposal procedure should be retained, and if so whether improvements can usefully be made to it;
Whether the power of the court under the summary procedure to order publication of a summary of its judgment should be made more widely available in defamation proceedings;
Whether further action is needed beyond the proposals in the draft Bill and the introduction of a new court procedure to address issues relating to an inequality of arms in defamation proceedings, including whether any specific restrictions should be placed on the ability of corporations to bring a defamation action;
Whether the current provisions in case law restricting the ability of public authorities and bodies exercising public functions to bring defamation actions should be placed in statute and whether these restrictions should be extended to other bodies exercising public functions.
We believe that publication of a draft Bill for full public consultation and pre-legislative scrutiny will help us to achieve fully considered legislative proposals which focus on core issues of concern where legislation can make a real difference. After the consultation process is completed, we intend to introduce substantive legislation as soon as parliamentary time allows.