Live Debate: Lords Chamber

Lords Chamber

Monday 19th January 2026

(began 1 hour, 45 minutes ago)

14:37

Introduction(s): Lord Docherty of Milngavie; Lord Pitt-Wilson

Charles III, Charles III, by Charles III, by the Charles III, by the Grace Charles III, by the Grace of Charles III, by the Grace of God Charles III, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and of her other realms and territories. King, head of the Commonwealth, defender of the Faith to all Lords, spiritual and temporal, and all other subjects whatsoever to whom these presents shall come. Greeting. Know ye that we of our especial grace, certain knowledge, and mere motion, in pursuance of the Life Peerages Act 1958, and of all other powers, in that behalf us enabling do by these presents advance, create, and prefer our trusty and well-beloved Joseph Paul Docherty to the state degree, style, dignity, title and honour of Baron Docherty of MoJ of Alexandria in our County of Dunbartonshire, and for us, our heirs and successors do appoint, give and grant unto him the said name, state, degree, style, dignity, title and honour of Baron Docherty of MoJ to have and to hold onto him for his life willing and by these presents granting for us our heirs and successors, that he may have, hold and possess a seat, place, and voice in the parliaments and public assemblies and councils of us, our heirs and successors within our United Kingdom, amongst the Barons, and also that he may enjoy and use all the rights, privileges, Preeminences, immunities and advantages to the degree of a Baron duly and of right belonging, which Barons of our United Kingdom have heretofore used and enjoyed, for, as they do at present, use and enjoy.

In witness whereof we have caused these our letters to be made patent witness ourself at Westminster in the forenoon of the 12th day of January, in the fourth year of our reign, by warrant under the King's sign-manual.

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I. Joseph Lord Docherty of Milngavie, do swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors

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Charles

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Charles III, Charles III, by Charles III, by the Charles III, by the grace Charles III, by the grace of Charles III, by the grace of God of the United Kingdom, of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and of our other realms and territories. King, head of the Commonwealth, King, head of the Commonwealth, defender of the Faith to all Lords, spiritual and temporal, and all other subjects whatsoever to whom these presents shall come. Greeting. Know ye that we of our special grace, certain knowledge, and mere motion, in pursuance of the Life Peerages Act 1958, and of all other powers, in that behalf us enabling do by these presents advance, create, and prefer our trusty and well-beloved David James Pitt-Watson to the state degree, style, dignity, title and honour of Baron Pitt-Watson of Kirkland, of Glencairn, in our county of Dumfriesshire.

And for us, our heirs and successors do appoint, give and grant unto him the said name, state, degree, style, dignity, title and honour of Baron Pitt-Watson to have and to hold unto him for his life willing, and by these presents granting for us our heirs and successors, that he may have, hold, and possess a seat, place, and voice in the parliaments and public assemblies and councils of us, our heirs and successors within our United Kingdom, amongst the Barons, and also that he may enjoy and use all the rights, privileges, Preeminences, immunities and advantages to the degree of a Baron duly and of right belonging, which Barons of our United Kingdom have heretofore used and enjoyed, for, as they do at present, use and enjoy.

In witness whereof we have caused these our letters to be made patent witness ourself at Westminster in the forenoon of the 15th day of January, in the fourth year of our reign, by warrant under the King's sign-manual.

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I. David Lord Pitt-Watson, do solemnly, sincerely, and truly declare and affirm that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to

14:48

Oral questions: Publishing the Equality and Human Rights Commission’s code of practice on single-sex spaces

First First Oral First Oral Question First Oral Question Baroness Ludford on behalf of Lord Strasburger.

14:48

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Minister for Women and Equalities) (Labour)

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Half of my noble friend Lord Strasburger, and at his request I beg leave to ask the question, standing in his name on the Order Paper. My Lords, the code of practice for services, public practice for services, public Functions and associations, provides guidance on all protected characteristics, not solely sex and gender reassignment. The government is considering the draft updated code and, if the decision is taken to approve it, the Secretary of State will lay it before Parliament. Parliament will then have a 40 day period to consider the draft code.

It is important that the correct process for considering the code is followed, to ensure that the Secretary of State can make an informed decision. My Lords, the

14:49

Baroness Ludford (Liberal Democrat)

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Education Secretary, the Minister supposedly for women, has run out of road with her procrastination, excuses and flannelling the object of ridicule. Organisations are of ridicule. Organisations are using government refusal to lay the guidance as a pretext to stick with the Stonewall law. That has been the Stonewall law. That has been wrong for a decade. This means women encountering situations which compromise their safety, privacy compromise their safety, privacy and dignity in changing rooms, toilets and leisure centres because these are not guaranteed to be single sex.

Why is the government continuing to fail women and defy

14:50

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Minister for Women and Equalities) (Labour)

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the rule of law? My Lords, the Secretary of State for education Secretary of State for education and the current Minister for women has a proud and lifelong record of representing women. She also understands that in order to be understands that in order to be able to do that, we need a code of practice that is both clear and practice that is both clear and legally defensible. And I would have thought anybody with women's best interests at heart would agree with that.

My Lords, proportionality is actually, I'm

14:50

Baroness Thornton (Labour)

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sure a whole House would recognise is central to the Equality Act. But of course it will be difficult to of course it will be difficult to apply. Can my noble friend, the Minister, assure the House that the government promotes a consistent government promotes a consistent and lawful understanding of proportionality across policy areas, proportionality across policy areas, particularly where rights appear to be in tension while ensuring decisions remain fair, evidence decisions remain fair, evidence based and respectful? Well, I am sure both in terms of the interpretation of law and the

14:51

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Minister for Women and Equalities) (Labour)

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sometimes difficult ways in which law is applied, that is an law is applied, that is an important principle. The For Women Scotland judgement in clarifying Scotland judgement in clarifying the UN definition of sex within the Equality Act was clear. But of Equality Act was clear. But of course it is important that that is applied in a way that has both applied in a way that has both legal clarity and also respects the rights and dignity of all those

14:51

Baroness Hunt of Bethnal Green (Crossbench)

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involved. My Lord, my Lords, my Lords, my Lords, on a number of occasions in this House outlined how how the how your carefully considering the draft code and following proper process. Could the following proper process. Could the Minister clarify how the government understands the balance between the Commissioner's Commission's independence, the independence of independence, the independence of EHRC and the Minister's statutory role in approving and laying a code before Parliament? Because I think before Parliament? Because I think there is some confusion.

Well, it

14:52

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Minister for Women and Equalities) (Labour)

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is for the independent Commission, as they've done, to determine, to as they've done, to determine, to consult on and to put forward the code to the Minister. The full code, following the most recent judgement was received on the 3rd of was received on the 3rd of September by the Department. It's then important that that is then important that that is properly reviewed, and there are various elements that also have to take place, as I've outlined previously, for example, consultation, for example, with the devolved administrations.

And then it is the minister's responsibility if if satisfied with that code, to then lay it before the House under the process set out in the Equality Act.

14:53

Baroness Cash (Conservative)

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It would be very helpful to the House, having had a number of questions on this matter now, if the Noble Minister would finally provide a timetable to indicate when we may have this laid before Parliament here.

14:53

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Minister for Women and Equalities) (Labour)

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Well, I think I've been pretty clear on every time, every time that I've answered. Well, I mean, that I've answered. Well, I mean, people might not like the answer, but the point here is, in terms of the consideration about ensuring that what is laid before Parliament is legally defensible will enable those who need the protection of this code and of the Equality Act to receive it, without us being bogged down in lengthy legal proceedings. I think that's a pretty sensible thing for any government to be spending a bit of time on getting right.

14:54

Lord Paddick (Non-affiliated)

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My Lords, I declare an interest. >> My Lords, I declare an interest. I'm paid to advise the Metropolitan Police on culture and leadership. As I reflect on having joined the As I reflect on having joined the Metropolitan Police as a constable 50 years ago in 1976, I tell people I joined when I was seven. One of the things that undermines public confidence in laws and those that enforce them is when rules and regulations, however legally sound and well-intentioned, are not enforceable in practice.

How sure is the government that the EAC code of practice is actually workable?

14:54

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Minister for Women and Equalities) (Labour)

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Well, workability is one important criteria. So is a certainty that the code fulfils the legal requirements and the clarity that has now been brought into the law by the For Women Scotland judgement. But the noble Lord is right that, of course, what can be very clear in law may be more complex in terms of its application in every single circumstance, and it's important that that's clear through the process of the code.

14:55

Baroness Chakrabarti (Labour)

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I'm very grateful to my noble friend, the Minister, for her very clear answers so far. Does she agree with me that whilst the agree with me that whilst the Supreme Court is definitive on the meaning of the Equality Act, it was silent as to other continuing obligations, for example, to trans people under the Human Rights Act and navigating coterminous legal obligations is one of the complex challenges of the guidance that has to be got right.

14:55

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Minister for Women and Equalities) (Labour)

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Well, my noble friend is is right that of course it is important. And it is the basis of important. And it is the basis of the Equality Act to recognise the rights of all those with protected characteristics within it. I have to say, I think that the what was helpful in the Supreme Court's judgement was the absolute clarification that trans people's rights remain protected within the Equality Act 2010. We've been clear that the laws to protect trans people from discrimination and harassment will remain in place, and that trans people will still be protected on the basis of gender reassignment, which is a protected characteristic written into the Equality Act.

And work is already underway to fulfil our commitment to advance the rights and protections afforded to LGBT+ people. And that includes delivering a trans inclusive ban on conversion practices, working with the Home Office to deliver our commitment to equalise all existing strands of hate crime, and working with the Department of Health and Social Care to improve services for trans people.

14:56

Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-affiliated)

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Does the noble Lady have any >> Does the noble Lady have any advice for women such as Miranda Newsome, who, assuming the Supreme Court had settled the matter, challenged the biological male in the female only changing room at a council run leisure centre in Southwark, received a torrent of abuse from the man. Yet it was she who was punished and barred from the gym. Can the noble Lady, the Minister, assure the House? After the victory of the Darlington nurses, the government is urgently instructing NHS bodies to bring their policy fully into compliance with the law.

Otherwise it's complicit with unlawful behaviour of service providers.

14:57

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Minister for Women and Equalities) (Labour)

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Well, the government has been clear that the judgement provides clarity around the definition of sex within the Quality Act and I hope that and we have been clear that therefore all providers should be following that, taking specialist legal advice where necessary and ensuring that with respect for everybody's rights and dignity, we can make progress through this in a way that respects the law, but also ensures that everybody is able to have the rights and protections that the Equality Act so importantly laid out in 2010.

14:58

Baroness Stedman-Scott (Conservative)

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In the wake of Sandy versus Fife NHS and Darlington nurses, versus County Durham and Darlington NHS decisions, all of whom are in the gallery. Does the Minister accept that there is also an urgent need for all NHS trusts to update their policies in the light of the Supreme Court ruling? Has the government sought this? And, as my noble friend Baroness Cash so well put out, so well, what timetable has the government set up for compliance? How much longer do we have to wait? And with all respect to the house, if my grandmother was saying this, she would say that Nelson would get his eye back before this happens.

14:59

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Minister for Women and Equalities) (Labour)

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Yeah. >> Well, as I've already been clear today, and previously, when responding to to this, it is important that all bodies, public important that all bodies, public and private, consider the clarity of the For Women Scotland Supreme Court judgement and review their policies in line with that. That goes for the NHS. It goes for other organisations as well. But I would just emphasise that, of course, the very nature of the fact that some people have have found it necessary to have to revert to legal cases in order to get their rights, is precisely the reason why we need to make sure that the interpretation of the most recent judgement is clear, and not going to mean people having to take their rights through the courts in order to have them realised in the future.

And it's in order to ensure that that is more likely to be the case, that the government is taking the time necessary to get this right.

15:00

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

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Second, Oral Question Lord >> Second, Oral Question Lord Spellar Lords, I beg leave to ask the question, standing in my name on the Order Paper.

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on the Order Paper. My Lords, individual inquiries report their own costs. The Covid inquiry, for example, has spent inquiry, for example, has spent approximately £31 million in its first two quarters of the 2526 financial year, whereas the Post Office Horizon inquiry reports spending of approximately £26 million in the 2425 financial year. The Cabinet Office also published Covid 19 inquiry legal responses of £25 million for the 2425 financial year. My Lords, public inquiries remain vital for investigating serious concerns, shedding light on injustices and spurring change, as well as getting answers for victims and their loved ones.

15:00

Lord Spellar (Labour)

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I thank the Minister for the for >> I thank the Minister for the for the response, but can I say that the public will be slightly concerned that the government concerned that the government doesn't seem to have an aggregate figure for the costs of inquiry of inquiries, let alone the cost for their own legal expenses, and also the cost of civil of civil service time. And at the time of cash being immensely tight, it would be a very good idea to tighten this up.

Would it not be much better for future inquiries to set a statutory, sorry, a fixed limit on how long they will take and also a fixed budget which they can't go beyond?

15:01

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

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My noble friend raises some >> My noble friend raises some interesting points. What I would. I think it may be helpful for him to be aware of two developments that be aware of two developments that this government has done in recent months, the first of which is that the changes to the ministerial code have made it clear that since October last year, any government department that wishes to bring forward a public inquiry has to bring forward a business case to a Cabinet Office Minister before the request goes to the Prime Minister, so that we can ensure that best practice is achieved.

And we have also updated the Practitioners Handbook as guidance for sponsor teams and inquiry staff on the set up and operation of inquiries. The results of which will be published shortly.

15:02

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Conservative)

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Lord Stockwood the I hesitate to go too far back in the past, but in go too far back in the past, but in the case of the inquiry following the disaster of Piper Alpha and also the Dunblane inquiry, which I commissioned, the key to that was appointing a judge with experience and having terms of reference that were clear and precise. And in that way one can get an inquiry which produced important results and which was conducted in time and well within reasonable expenditure.

15:02

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

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The Noble Order makes a >> The Noble Order makes a genuinely important point about remembering that this is about value for money as well. But I want to remind all noble Lords that this is truly about getting answers for people who have been victims or potentially horrendous and heartbreaking experiences, and reminding people rebuilding trust in the state. He's absolutely right that making sure that we have learnt best practice is key. What I would say, however gently, to your Lordships' House, is also ensuring, though, that we implement the recommendations from each inquiry to make sure that these aren't books that sit on shelves, which has historically happened in some cases.

15:03

Baroness Manningham-Buller (Crossbench)

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Across crossbench. >> Across crossbench. >> I wonder. >> If the noble Lady, the Minister, could tell us how many public inquiries are on at the moment, and inquiries are on at the moment, and picking up the point that Lord Spellar made. This isn't just the cost of the judges, it's the amount of public servants who have to be removed from current work to service the inquiries.

15:03

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

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Yeah, yeah. The responsibilities on everybody to truly participate, to provide the evidence is key. To answer her specific question, there are currently 21 public inquiries on the statute book, five and 16 of which are active, 12 are statutory and eight of which have been initiated by this government.

15:04

Lord Wallace of Saltaire (Liberal Democrat)

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Danger. It seems to me that >> Danger. It seems to me that public inquiries end up like royal commissions of old, taking minutes and years and losing public confidence. Is there not a case now for looking at the way public inquiries are handled, and how far one can make sure that at least some of them are faster in the way they conclude, so that we don't wait several years before they conclude. And as well as looking at the question of overall cost and time spent.

15:04

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

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I absolutely agree. I think we've seen whether it was infected blood, whether it was the horizon scandal that people had to wait years before we even got to the years before we even got to the point of a public inquiry and genuinely want answers. And for the government, the opportunity for all of us to help rebuild trust in the institutions which should matter to people at a time when our when there are significant threats to our democracy, it's incredibly important that people have trust in them.

So expediting this is key. One of the things that we have also done is brought forward the dashboard, where people can see what recommendations have been made by some of these public inquiries to make sure that they're being recommended, that their recommendations are also being implemented. There is a balance here, not just from ensuring that people can have their day, can make sure that their issues are being heard, but that not only are we listening to them, but we're acting on the recommendations of these inquiries.

My Lords, some of.

15:05

Baroness Finn (Conservative)

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The most serious matters considered by public inquiries inevitably touched on the actions inevitably touched on the actions or knowledge of the intelligence and security agencies. Can the noble Baroness, the Minister, explain how the government ensures that bodies such as MI5, MI6 and GCHQ are able to participate fully and properly in public inquiries by providing relevant evidence and assistance, while also preserving their essential national security duties and statutory statutory obligations. In particular, how does the government ensure that national security considerations do not unduly limit an inquiry's ability to establish the facts or command public confidence in its conclusions?

15:06

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

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The noble Lady will be very aware of the pre-existing processes that are in place, both through the public interest immunity certificates that exist, but also the fact that in statute, chairs of committees can be can see intelligence reports that allow them to work to ensure that nothing is being hidden, but also that the key findings are made with regards to the PII certificates, there are mechanism for Ministers to seek to withhold highly sensitive material from disclosure in court proceedings, and they can be used in relation to statutory inquiries.

I think fundamental to this, my Lords, is we need to make sure we get the balance right between exposing the between ensuring that everybody is duly held to account while at the same time protecting those people that strive every day to keep us safe.

15:07

Lord Brennan of Canton (Labour)

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My Lords, in relation to the my noble Friend Minister's remarks earlier on about the implementation of the recommendations of public inquiries, many of us would have liked to have seen the Leveson two recommendations implemented. But can I commend the government for the work it's been doing on the Hillsborough law, which of course, derives directly from the sorts of outcomes of these public inquiries. But ask the Minister if she can update the House on the latest position with regard to the security services and the Hillsborough law.

15:07

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

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I think I thank my noble friend for that question. My Lords, there for that question. My Lords, there is a statement happening in the other place this afternoon which will update, but I'd like to reassure your Lordships House that this government is completely committed to the Public Office Accountability Bill. There are obviously ongoing discussions with key stakeholders, not least the families and my friend in the. My hon. Friend in the other place will report this afternoon on next steps.

15:08

Baroness D'Souza (Crossbench)

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The Post Office Inquiry. been a member of the Public Inquiries Committee. My Lords, no one doubts the value of these committees, but a common concern of all committees, which has been noted here is the degree to which governments are prepared to implement the recommendations in our Committee. One of the key recommendations was the setting up of a new independent Committee of Parliament to have oversight of public inquiries, as well as monitoring publication of government responses on implementation.

Can the noble Lady, the Minister, say if progress has been made on this.

15:08

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

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I thank the noble Lady for her >> I thank the noble Lady for her work that she has done in this space. It was an excellent report and is feeding in to government. and is feeding in to government. Thinking about next steps. The noble Lady may be aware that the committee in the other place is currently got a call for evidence. I'd urge all noble members to contribute about how we should do this, but obviously how we scrutinise the government is a matter for Parliament.

Having said that, we do appreciate that more scrutiny is required.

15:09

Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom (Conservative)

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My Lords. >> Public inquiries have had a bad rap recently, and that's partly because of the eye watering sums of money spent by the Post Office on money spent by the Post Office on their legal fees and the Post Office inquiry. But the Post Office inquiry has been, so far as I can tell, doing a really good job. There's one problem. I wonder whether the noble Lady the Minister might consider, and that is that public inquiries can be used as an excuse for organisations such as the Solicitors Regulation Authority not to take action until the public inquiry reports.

I understand why that is, but what can we do about that?

15:10

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

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I think obviously the noble Lord >> I think obviously the noble Lord has been an incredible campaigner for those people who have been for those people who have been subject to the appalling, IT disasters within the Post Office. With regards to his specific point, it is a genuinely important point and we've seen it throughout several of the inquiries that have happened and the why and the impact that people feel that some of the inquiries have been pushing, some of the other actions, pushing the can down the road, I think is a genuine thing that we need to reflect on.

And I will speak to him and I will speak to Ministers in the Cabinet Office and come back to him.

15:10

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

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Oral Question the Lord Bishop of Newcastle. Newcastle. >> My Lords, I beg leave to ask the question. Standing in my name on the Order Paper.

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the Order Paper. Tackling abuse in teenage relationships and preventing abuse before it happens is a priority for the government. The Violence the government. The Violence Against Women and Girls Strategy, recently published, commits to ensuring all children learn about healthy relationships and consent in school, provides a helpline for young people concerned about their own behaviour to provide support and guidance, and delivers interventions for young people which challenge and change harmful attitudes and behaviours.

15:11

The Lord Bishop of Newcastle (Bishops)

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I thank the noble Lord, the Minister, for his answer. I wonder Minister, for his answer. I wonder if the noble Lord would be able to give an update on government's response to calls to lower the age, the statutory age at which individuals can be seen as victims of domestic abuse, otherwise known as Holly's Law, named after the Northumberland teenager Holly Newton, who was murdered by her ex-partner.

15:11

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

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I'm very much aware of the >> I'm very much aware of the position of the murder of Holly Newton, and my thoughts are with Newton, and my thoughts are with Holly's family and friends. As the right reverend Prelate may know, the Home Office is undertaking a scoping review into the legal framework of domestic abuse to ensure it captures the experience of adolescents, particularly. This includes the very point that Right reverend has mentioned, which is reviewing the Age Limit in Domestic Abuse Act of 2021, and that review will conclude during the course of this year, and I'll be able to report back in due course.

15:12

Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen (Non-affiliated)

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My Lords. There is always, quite >> My Lords. There is always, quite rightly, multi-agency involvement in these distressing cases, but can in these distressing cases, but can be a problem when victims fall through the cracks. When a joined up approach fails. And how can we be assured that this is being improved? I think this is a difficult problem for my noble friend the Minister to answer, but but I think it's an important one to be aired because we see over and over again how there is problems with a joined up approach, with one agency talking to another agency, and I wonder if he might have some views on that.

15:13

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

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I'm grateful all agencies have a responsibility to provide safeguarding for young people, and therefore the cooperation between therefore the cooperation between the agencies. And by that I mean both schools, social services and indeed potentially the police are extremely important. What we're trying to do in the violence against women and girls strategy is to look at how we can better do that. And I would refer the noble Lady to that document because there are potential steps in there that we're seeking to achieve, but it solution.

15:13

Baroness Brinton (Liberal Democrat)

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My Lord. Is it not that in. Lady. The action plan proposes increasing the number of family help lead protection practitioners, that is, a senior social worker. But children's services teams across the country are severely stretched. Now, can the Minister say how many more children's social workers will be needed to deliver family support? And will the government guarantee that funding for it will be ring fenced inside local authorities?

15:14

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

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Well, the noble Lady will know I can't give her a figure today on can't give her a figure today on that. There is a you know, there's a violence against women and girls strategy. We put an extra £20 million into that strategy to deal with the particular issues that are the focus of this question. There is a need, going back to the earlier point made by the noble Lady, to have coordination between local authorities, education and in some cases even now, the devolved administrations.

So I can't give you a definitive answer, but I will take the point back to my right hon. Friend Jess Phillips, the Minister with direct responsibilities, and ensure that she gets an answer.

15:14

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster (Labour)

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My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that one of the issues to be solved by the points issues to be solved by the points that have already been raised is information sharing, information sharing between the police, social workers and teachers, and also that we could make better use, for example, of school nurses and educational psychologists in getting support to vulnerable young people at risk. Could his department really drill down on this, find out what the best practice is, and then share it with others so we can all learn from it?

15:15

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

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It's a very good point made by my noble friend, and she will know that the Home Office has invested £13.1 million to fund and launch a new National Centre for violence against Women and Girls and Public Protection to improve the response, particularly in relation to child sexual abuse. That goes to the heart of the point that both the noble Lady and my noble friend have mentioned about coordination, and I think it's important that we try to resolve this. The strategy was published just before Christmas.

It's a ten year strategy. There's a lot of stuff in that, but the objective is one that my noble friend has pointed to and one that we share.

15:15

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (Crossbench)

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My Lords, will. >> The government undertake to work with our Lord Rooker the organisation? Because a problem very often for children with skin very often for children with skin of colour, girls with skin of colour is that bruises don't show, and therefore people who may encounter these girls with early signs of abuse which then escalates, are do not easily have the triggers in order to open the conversation and allow the girls to express that they are at risk.

15:16

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

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I think that's a very good point, >> I think that's a very good point, if I may say so. From the noble Lady again, one of the areas that the violence against women and girls strategy is looking at is how we can improve training for professionals who come into contact with people who may be involved in that type of abuse. And the point that she made mentioned, particularly relating to people of colour is extremely important. I'll take that away.

15:16

Lord Sandhurst (Conservative)

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My Lords. A Guardian article last week said that in reference to last week said that in reference to the sentencing bill that the victims commissioner feared that and I quote, plans to radically change sentencing, could leave victims of domestic abuse in danger. My question is the victims commissioner wrong?

15:17

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

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The victims commissioner has a statutory duty to comment upon issues that she wishes or he wishes, whichever individual at any particular time wanted to say the Post-holder can say they've made representations with regard to the sentencing Bill. This House has completed its proceedings on the sentencing Bill, and the Minister for justice, the noble Lord Timpson, has reflected upon the comments that were made by the victims commissioner at that time. I think that is a point that is self-evident, but one which I don't wish to comment on further.

15:17

Lord Meston (Crossbench)

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My Lords, it's a particularly sad feature of domestic violence sad feature of domestic violence cases that adults are doing what was done to them as children, and indeed their own children are in turn exposed to similar violence and come to see it as normal and acceptable. This difficult problem is recognised in the government's strategy, but can the Minister indicate what more specifically they hope to do to address these violence? These cycles of intergenerational violence? Well.

15:18

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

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One of the key areas that we're trying to undertake is to ensure that we put in place through the that we put in place through the education system, strengthening of relationship education, strengthening of personal relationship education, and strengthening of respect for particularly for young girls. And that is a very difficult job because there is a massive social media as well, which has an exact opposite approach to the type of things that we should wish to see within the education system. So we're also trying to look at through the Online Safety Act, what we need to do with online harm, because the world has moved on even in the last 10 to 15 years, and will continue to do so.

But it's a very important point, and it's one that the government is very much appraised of, trying to find some resolution to.

15:19

Lord Watts (Labour)

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Minister is quite correct to say >> Minister is quite correct to say that social media has much more impact than government policy in this area, but is he confident that this area, but is he confident that the regulator that has continued to fail to do anything about this is going to be up for the job that they have now with the changes in the policy direction that they will go and do the job that they're supposed to do to protect the public.

15:19

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

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Well, the Ofcom for which the >> Well, the Ofcom for which the regulator is the appropriate body are determined to ensure that with are determined to ensure that with the existing legislation on the Online Safety Act that is implemented and that social media companies in particular are held to account for their performance on that, but again, on relation to the violence against women and girls strategy and indeed other matters such as fraud. Within my own direct remit, we are attempting to look at whether we need to give additional powers and support to the to Ofcom to ensure that they perform those tasks properly.

15:19

The Lord Bishop of Manchester (Bishops)

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My Lords. >> Was a judge. >> Asking about domestic violence, it seemed we've strayed slightly off the subject. I wonder, I wonder off the subject. I wonder, I wonder if. The Minister would agree with me that the most harm comes to children is actually is within the home, and that we hear an awful lot about about social media, about other forms of harm. But actually where children are most at risk, it's usually from a relative or a close friend of the family.

15:20

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

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It is, again, the question itself was very often phrased in itself was very often phrased in relation to teenage and teenage violence, but it's actually extremely important that the that parental responsibility also is is managed effectively. And in the violence against women and girls strategy. That is certainly recognised. And I hope the right reverend Prelate will be able to support us in that ten year period to try and reduce that.

15:20

Lord Hintze (Conservative)

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Spend. >> Spend. >> Spend, spend. My Lords.

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I'm not sure. But thank you. Thank you, my Lords. How does this how does this relate to FGM?

15:21

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

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Well. mutilation is outlawed. The government are taking steps through the Home Office, particularly to both give advice and support and to look at issues to do with individuals and and sentencing as well. And there's a whole programme to deal with female genital mutilation, including both spotting the signs of abuse. And particularly we've taken steps recently at the border to ensure that checks are made on individuals who may be going in or out of the country for the purposes of being impacted by female genital mutilation.

It's an abhorrent practice, one that we'll continue to crack down on.

15:21

Lord Vallance of Balham, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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Fourth Oral Question Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist. >> I leave to ask the question, standing in my name on the Order

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Paper. The government will publish very soon the advanced nuclear framework, soon the advanced nuclear framework, setting a pathway for privately led advanced nuclear projects. The framework framework will introduce an assessment process identifying credible projects that are potentially deliverable within the UK. We would welcome a proposal regarding deployment of a Japanese HDR, Japanese LED or alongside UK partner and UK NNL is open to proposals from any country, including Japan. Any developer can approach UK NNL to discuss support.

15:22

Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Conservative)

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I thank the noble Lord, the Minister, for that encouraging answer and welcome him and all peers to Nuclear in Parliament Week. My happy space. The Minister will know that ogres are classed as Amr technology, and the UK is on track to be the first country outside Russia to produce Halo, the base fuel for Amr. The mosque between NNL and JAEA, signed in 2023, is, I think he'll agree to modest. Would the noble Lord, the Minister, agree that it would be highly desirable, both in terms of securing the UK supply chain and employment, to accelerate the commercial development of Japanese technology in the UK? And in this regard, would he perhaps undertake to engage with his Japanese counterpart to provide the necessary commitment to progress this technology?

15:23

Lord Vallance of Balham, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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We have two mosques with Japan one one, as the noble Lady rightly one one, as the noble Lady rightly said, was signed in 23, a second on her own and fuel on 2024. And we have regular meetings with our Japanese counterparts. Japan has been long held as an important collaborator for us in nuclear. The last of those meetings was held. It was the 14th such meeting was held on the 3rd of December last year, and we will continue with regular interactions with the Japanese, who we certainly view as extremely important partners, particularly in this area.

15:23

Viscount Hanworth (Labour)

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My Lords are. >> My Lords are. >> Much vaunted. Nuclear revival is based on the deployment of based on the deployment of pressurised light water reactors, and these are grossly inefficient in their use of uranium fuels, which will be in short supply within a decade. They will need to be replaced by safer and more efficient reactors, such as thorium reactors and fast neutron reactors that breed their own fuels. However, within the last 12 months, we've seen the departure from the UK or the closure of the projects that were aimed at developing such reactors.

And my question to the Minister is whether there is any remaining prospect of developing advanced reactors in the UK, or will we be dependent in future on foreign technologies based on technologies pioneered in the UK? Well, my noble friend is right that there are many different technologies coming along and one

15:24

Lord Vallance of Balham, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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of the reasons that we put the advanced nuclear framework together is to make it possible for all of those technologies to have a pathway through to production in the UK. And I think this is an important moment when private sector leadership of nuclear is real, and it can happen because of real, and it can happen because of the new designs, and we welcome all of the different technologies as part of that framework, which, as I say, will be published shortly.

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say, will be published shortly. My Lords, perhaps in contrast to my noble friend, I should just

15:25

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Labour)

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congratulate the government on the decision to final investment decision on Sizewell C and the SMR decision on Sizewell C and the SMR programme by Rolls-Royce at welfare. So, my Lords, this is a foundation for a fantastic new nuclear for a fantastic new nuclear industry in the UK. But would he agree that in welcoming private sector investment, we do need to sector investment, we do need to look at siting policy and making it more flexible? As the recent

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taskforce recommended? Well, I think my noble friend

15:25

Lord Vallance of Balham, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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should partially congratulate himself for the first part of his question because he was very involved in making that happen, and involved in making that happen, and I join him in congratulating him. It is it is, of course, the case that we have have a very that we have have a very significant nuclear programme with Smrs coming along and the Fingleton Review and a series of other processes, including Ian seven, which was laid on the 18th of December, make planning and other aspects much easier and the siting is very important.

There is a siting review going on at the moment by GB n that will read out in autumn, looking at potential sites for future gigawatt production as well.

15:26

Earl Russell (Liberal Democrat)

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My my Lord. >> My my Lord. >> Can I ask the Minister to outline how the continued outline how the continued cooperation excuse me with Japan on Htgr reactors will contribute to achieving the government's net zero ambitions, improving our long term energy security and in particular, providing a reliable, low carbon heat and power source to decarbonise industrial sectors that are otherwise particularly hard to abate, like steel making and hydrogen production. And what assessment will be made of the cost effectiveness of alternative types of technology?

15:26

Lord Vallance of Balham, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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Yes. >> Yes. >> I think the the point that's been raised about the heat production of the Hdgs is very production of the Hdgs is very important. This is not just about the electricity, it's about the heat and what can be done with the heat. It's why we're very keen to encourage advanced modular reactors in the UK. There's also an opportunity to make them much smaller, to site them in different places, which will free up the link directly to industrial purposes.

And the advanced nuclear framework lays this out very clearly and encourages private sector and others to join in in putting forward new technologies.

15:27

Lord Moynihan (Conservative)

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My Lords, given that the Minister has mentioned new technologies and is is he aware that the Japanese high temperature gas cooled reactors operating at 950 degrees? And he mentioned the importance of heat, produces hydrogen at scale and at reasonable cost? And would not it be beneficial to cooperate further with Japan Atomic Energy Agency on multi-purpose nuclear heat applications, especially hydrogen production, using its high temperature engineering test, the low cost production of energy should be our overall objective in policy.

15:28

Lord Vallance of Balham, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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We've had two collaborations with the Japanese over the last couple of years, one around and one around coated coated fuels, and one that's ongoing now on robotics as well. And the point that's made about the heat production, again is crucial. And the Japanese, through the collaboration that we've had with them through UK NNL, have got the demonstrator ready to go in 2028 specifically focussed on hydrogen, and we will keep very close contact with them over that, because that production of hydrogen, green hydrogen through nuclear is a very interesting opportunity.

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The government have done. A good. Sir can update the House on the plans to replace Russia in. The.

15:29

The Earl of Kinnoull (Crossbench)

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>> The. >> Nuclear fuel supply chain, given it has a very dominant place there

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at the moment. Well, we have a committed ban on

15:29

Lord Vallance of Balham, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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>> Well, we have a committed ban on using any import from Russian nuclear fuel by 2028. I can say that as of now, there's no direct that as of now, there's no direct use of Russian fuels. By 2028, indirect will be eliminated as well. By that I mean fuel that's processed elsewhere that may have originated in Russia. We've also invested 300 million in making sure that we have our own fuel production, particularly high assay, low enriched uranium, which is going to be particularly important.

And that is a very major step forward in terms of becoming self-sufficient in some of this fuel.

15:29

Lord Naseby (Conservative)

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Some of the government have considerably good job in this area in the limited time they've been there. There is a problem in that. I'm not sure that the general public understand and are still worried about the development of nuclear on variety of areas. Is are the the government able to reassure us that they will look at that hard so that they can we can at least begin to reduce the extensive time of consultation, which is holding back a fair number of developments.

15:30

Lord Vallance of Balham, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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I do think that the public opinion is changing, and it's changed quite a lot in the last few years, but the noble Lord is right. There remains a lot of obstacles to moving fast in this space. That's why the Fingleton review is so important. With its 47 recommendations. We will be responding fully to that within the three month time period, i.e. by the end of February, and will propose to drive that forward as fast as we can for exactly the reasons that he's raised.

My Lord, the government.

15:30

Lord Spellar (Labour)

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The government, the government's >> The government, the government's development, my Lords, the government. >> The Labour benches.

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The Labour benches. I call my Lords the government's impetus on the nuclear programme is extremely welcome. But will it not extremely welcome. But will it not be much even better for the nations and regions of this country and for our important manufacturing industry? If our world leading position was being reinforced by doing the maximum amount of engineering work for the construction of these projects here in the UK.

15:31

Lord Vallance of Balham, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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Yeah. answer is that as we move towards contract completion with Rolls-Royce for the small modular reactors, we will want to ensure that 70% of the supply chain, both on site and off site, is through British construction.

15:31

Lord Trefgarne (Conservative)

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He's not selling the work done by the two agencies. Something to the question of a highly sensitive nature. Is it properly protected?

15:31

Lord Vallance of Balham, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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So I missed the middle is what >> So I missed the middle is what properly protected the fuel? >> No. The information.

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The information. Yes. Well, I think I think there is a big focus on security of information across the nuclear space, including, of course, cyber security, making sure that we retain the intellectual property and the know how. That's

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so crucial for the safety of this technology. My Lords, that concludes our

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My Lords, that concludes our questions for today. This is an opportunity for any members wish to Private Private notice Private notice question Private notice question on Greenland. Diplomatic efforts and tariff impact Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon.

15:33

Private Notice Question: Greenland: diplomatic efforts and tariff impact on UK economy

My Lords, I beg today to ask a question which I've given private notice. The question is as follows. To ask His Majesty's Government in light of recent developments in light of recent developments in relation to Greenland, what assessment they have made of the impact of proposed US trade tariffs on the UK economy, and what diplomatic efforts they are making to ensure the sovereign rights of nations to their territories.

15:33

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Conservative)

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I'm grateful to the noble Lord, and it's always good to hear him

15:34

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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speak on these issues. And as the Prime Minister stated this morning, the use of tariffs against allies the use of tariffs against allies is completely wrong. It's not the right way to resolve differences right way to resolve differences within an alliance. Any decision about the future status of Greenland belongs to the people of Greenland and the Kingdom of Greenland and the Kingdom of Denmark alone. The Prime Minister spoke to both President Trump and Prime Minister Frederiksen

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Prime Minister Frederiksen yesterday, as well as other key partners. My Lords, may I first welcome

15:34

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Conservative)

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and fully align myself. And indeed, I think I speak for most, if not all, in your Lordships House, that all, in your Lordships House, that we're at one with the government's position on that. I welcome the recent statements by all political leaders in this respect. However, leaders in this respect. However, if I press the Minister further, firstly, on the actual tariffs themselves, what are the themselves, what are the implications of that 10%, particularly with the negotiations on the existing agreement that has on the existing agreement that has been made for exports such as car manufacturing, 17.4% of our exports go to the to the US.

They need to have long term planning. What assessments have been made in that respect and what briefing has been given to them? And secondly, bearing in mind that the president of the United States is going to be in Europe at Davos, surely now is the time for the British government to convene an emergency meeting of the NATO alliance to address the issues of long term security of the alliance, and, importantly, not just the sovereign rights of Greenlanders and the sovereign rights of Denmark, but for other territories around the world.

15:35

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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Well, as noble Lords would >> Well, as noble Lords would imagine we are speaking in. This is happening in real time, but constantly with our friends and constantly with our friends and allies and partners in NATO and beyond, and any meetings that are needed to be convened, I'm sure will will happen. As far as the impact of these tariffs would be, they would be extremely damaging, not least to our car industry, to aerospace, life sciences, to steel. And it's not something that we wish to see happen.

And we do hope that this proposal can be averted.

15:36

Lord Purvis of Tweed (Liberal Democrat)

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It's obvious to everyone, I now feel that the US president is feel that the US president is unserious person, but whose actions have very serious consequences. The threat from the US to not only a very close ally in the European Union, but a NATO partner, and then to punish us for standing with them is utterly reprehensible. The PM, as the Minister said, the actions are completely wrong, but the government refuses to raise a formal complaint to the WTO, whose rules these are trashing.

He said that they're completely wrong because their economic coercion, but has refused to put in place protective anti coercion measures. What is the point of saying something is completely wrong when you do completely nothing as a result of it?

15:36

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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Yeah, yeah. >> Well I think it's called diplomacy. And our aim is to de-escalate the situation and not to take measures which would to take measures which would inevitably cause this to escalate and get more damaging for our manufacturers and for people's jobs and livelihoods in the United Kingdom. Yeah.

15:37

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Conservative)

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Remind the House of my interest. Can I congratulate the government on the line that they're taking? If the US were to ask nicely, then they could actually have all the military bases, all the military personnel that they would wish for. They chose to withdraw the personnel after the Cold War. My understanding is that China has negotiated contracts to extract the minerals in Greenland. So if the US was to barge in in an aggressive way, what do you think? What does the noble Lady, the Minister think would happen to the Chinese rights to mine, which have already been negotiated?

15:37

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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Well, I do appreciate the noble Lady takes a strong personal Lady takes a strong personal interest. Reasons that I understand in what happens in Denmark and also in Greenland. I don't think it helps anybody to speculate about what we would do if certain things were to happen. But can I also respond by saying, as I should have done in my initial remarks, just to thank the Leader of the Opposition, Kemi Badenoch, for the support that she has given to the government in regards to the position that we've taken this morning.

15:38

Baroness Hoey (Non-affiliated)

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The Prime Minister has said that Greenlanders must have a say in Greenlanders must have a say in what's happening and I fully, fully accept that. Why then tell us what's the difference between not allowing the Chagossians to have any say at all in us buying selling the Chagos Islands off and paying for that pleasure of sending it to Mauritius.

15:38

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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As I think we examined at length through the progress of the bill, through the progress of the bill, the right to self-determination isn't something that you can claim for yourself. It is something that can be legally determined. And when this question was tested before every court, which is considered it so far, including here in the UK, the Chagossians, and we can all have our own personal feelings and emotions and reaction to this, I know I do, but the legal situation is that you do not have the right of self-determination as regards to the Chagos Archipelago, but that the Greenlanders, the Greenlanders, do, and we respect their right to self-determination.

What happens to Greenland is a question for them and for the Kingdom of Denmark.

15:39

Lord Callanan (Conservative)

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My Lords, I will resist the >> My Lords, I will resist the temptation to pursue that last question. The noble Lady will be relieved to know the Prime Minister is right, to tell President Trump is right, to tell President Trump on this occasion that he is wrong. Imposing tariffs for pursuing the collective security of NATO and supporting the absolute right of self-determination for the people of Greenland is madness. It is also the case that many members of Congress, on both sides of the aisle, also think that Trump is wrong on this.

So can the noble Lady tell the House what steps we are taking to utilise our considerable diplomatic presence in Washington to utilise and build on that support, in helping to persuade Trump to back down?

15:40

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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Well, we do talk with relevant >> Well, we do talk with relevant partners as appropriate, but the main conversations that have happened between the United Kingdom happened between the United Kingdom and the United States have taken place between our Prime Minister and President Trump, and most recently, yesterday. There may have been more contact since then that I'm not aware of, but I think that is the right level at which to address such a serious situation.

15:40

Lord West of Spithead (Labour)

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Well, I've never been one to underplay a threat, but does my noble friend the Minister not agree noble friend the Minister not agree that there seems to be no intelligence assessments whatsoever to say there is an immediate threat to the mainland of the land of Greenland? And it is extraordinary that things are being done at this pace, and we need to take a deep breath, look at the intelligence assessments and assess what the real threat and the real situation is before doing anything.

15:41

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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I think the noble Lord is encouraging us to be calm and to encouraging us to be calm and to respond thoughtfully but clearly. And luckily, that is the approach that our Prime Minister is taking.

15:41

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (Green Party)

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My Lords, there's a. >> Very notable. >> Difference in tone between the response of many of our European allies and Sir Keir Starmer to the allies and Sir Keir Starmer to the actions and words of President Trump. Does the noble Lady, the Minister, think that the softly, softly approach of the United Kingdom is having a positive impact, or is indeed it inviting further aggressive actions and words?

15:41

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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Well, actually watched the Prime >> Well, actually watched the Prime Minister's statement this morning, and I wouldn't describe it at all as softly, softly. I think it was as softly, softly. I think it was very clear what the United Kingdom stands for and what we think of this proposal. And the Prime Minister stood there, publicly laid that out for people to make their own assessment of where they think we are. So I think that the right thing to do is to carry on in that vein.

That served us well up until now. And I think that our Prime Minister does have a good relationship. And the respect of President Trump much to many people. Surprised, I might add. Nevertheless, that is where we are. And I think he is, you know, he's someone I know quite well. And I would say that he's actually quite well suited to this kind of diplomacy.

15:42

Lord Fox (Liberal Democrat)

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Lord Sewell to hear the. very reassuring, I'm sure, my Lords, but would you not agree that to back up that diplomacy, bringing forward a credible plan as to how we're going to meet our spending obligations in defence, to meet our NATO obligations would be very sensible, and publishing the defence industrial plan now would be a very good way of backing up that diplomacy.

15:43

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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Well, I mean, it's Monday and these announcements, announcements these announcements, announcements are made at the weekend. So I think there will be further announcements made. The defence Defence Industrial Strategy I agree investment strategy is, I agree, incredibly important, but I think it needs to be published when it's ready and that we shouldn't be rushed into doing things before that.

15:43

The Lord Bishop of Manchester (Bishops)

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Yeah. already who spoke about the importance of diplomacy in this, but yet I think there's a danger that diplomacy takes place at a very high level over the heads of the Greenlanders themselves. It was only a few days ago in this chamber that my right reverend friend, the Lord Bishop of Chester, who unfortunately is not able to be with us just yet, this this afternoon, asked particularly about could we strengthen our diplomatic ties in nuke itself with the Greenlanders directly? Because I think that would give a lot of moral support.

It would also mean that the Britain, Britain's government would have a much better understanding of what the Greenlanders themselves are thinking, rather than what other people are telling them to think.

15:43

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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I do agree that this does need >> I do agree that this does need to have the Greenlanders at the heart of it, and I'm pleased that many Ministers have met with their many Ministers have met with their counterparts in Greenland, and not just in response to recent events, but this is a long standing arrangement that we have. But I think he makes a really strong point that diplomacy should never happen somewhere else. And I think what's been proved over with recent events is that geopolitics isn't something that happens out there, away from here.

It has a direct impact on people's jobs and their livelihoods, on our manufacturing industry. In almost every element of of life in the United Kingdom. And that's why this is being taken quite so seriously by the government.

15:44

The Earl of Kinnoull (Crossbench)

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I crossbench, crossbench. >> I crossbench, crossbench. >> Much of. >> What has been said so. Far is of the respectful and firm way in the respectful and firm way in which the intergovernmental dimension of the relationship is reacting to this news. Tomorrow. Of

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course, we have the opportunity for some of the interparliamentary dimension to. React because we had the visit

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React because we had the visit of Mr. Mike Johnson, whose speaker of the US House of Representatives and I wondered if the Minister and I wondered if the Minister would feel it's helpful if we do as parliamentarians, reflect the same

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parliamentarians, reflect the same respectful and firm tone on this issue in interparliamentary dimension as well. Yeah. Well.

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Well. I wouldn't dream of advising noble Lords or my good friends at the other end of the building on what they should and shouldn't say what they should and shouldn't say to, to to visiting to a visiting speaker from the United States. But I do think that he makes a good I do think that he makes a good point there about having clarity in the position, which I think is widely held, if not unanimously widely held, if not unanimously held, at least within this chamber.

As regards Greenland.

15:45

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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Lords.

15:45

Baroness Goldie (Conservative)

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Is there to. friend Lord armoured. It offensive and strong alliance such as NATO is requires in addition to resource two vital components unity of purpose amongst the members and cohesion. A seamless cohesion amongst the members. The recent pronouncements by President Trump has frankly thrown a bucket of sand into the engine room. So may I ask the Minister to discuss with our colleagues in Ministry of Defence convening an urgent meeting of NATO, if only to reassert what all of us believe NATO to exist for and to underpin that.

You know, while one member may have an aberrant view, the rest of us are totally united in why we need NATO, why we want NATO, and why we support NATO.

15:46

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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Can I just start by completely agreeing with her in what she says agreeing with her in what she says about unity of purpose? And that's why the Prime Minister made the statement that he did this morning. When it comes to what meetings to hold, who should convene them when that should happen, I will leave that to others to determine. But she can rest assured that, of

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course, I am speaking regularly with colleagues in the Mod about this and other issues. My Lord Stockwood.

15:47

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-affiliated)

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>> My Lord Stockwood. >> The noble Lady, the Minister. >> Assist the House. >> In informing. >> Us which.

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Eight wars President Trump has ended. I'm afraid I'm not responsible

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I'm afraid I'm not responsible for interpreting statements of anybody other than myself.

15:47

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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>> Prime Minister confirm that under the 1951 agreement between the US, Denmark and Greenland, the United States has very considerable existing powers to establish existing powers to establish military bases in Greenland. Has the Prime Minister emphasised this point to the president?

15:47

Lord Pannick (Crossbench)

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There are many ways that the current situation and the concerns that United States has could be resolved, and what matters is that they are done collegiately, they are done collegiately, diplomatically, and they're done in a way that is respectful of the a way that is respectful of the alliance that we are all part of. And so we are hopeful that that is what can come about.

15:47

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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A lot.

15:48

Lord Scriven (Liberal Democrat)

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Of diplomacy, as the noble Lady, the Minister said, if that is the foremost approach of the government in, in, in, in continuing the line of my noble friend Lord Purvis, could I ask, when will the WTO be brought in to that diplomacy? And has the government already reached out to the WTO about these particular tariffs?

15:48

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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I think I mean, my response is the same, essentially, in that we the same, essentially, in that we will take decisions about who to involve, what measures to use, which institutions to involve at a point, at every, every stage, the test of what we do and when and who

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