Westminster Hall

Wednesday 10th January 2024 Westminster Hall

Wednesday 10 January 2024

[Dame Caroline Dinenage in the Chair]

Musculoskeletal Conditions and Employment

Wednesday 10th January 2024 Westminster Hall

09:30

[Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered musculoskeletal conditions and employment.

It is a pleasure to serve under you chairmanship, Dame Caroline. Musculoskeletal conditions can be devastating for those affected. They can cause pain, reduce mobility, diminish self-confidence and lead to isolation. They can also lead to extended periods of absence from work and, in some cases, people giving up work altogether. Instead of enjoying a productive working life, people can find themselves unemployed and impoverished. In addition to the terrible human cost, MSK conditions bring substantial costs to the state in the form of social security and NHS spending.

Conditions include osteoporosis, rheumatoid arthritis, traumatic fractures, osteoarthritis, rheumatic rheumatoid arthritis, traumatic fractures and a range of conditions that cause pain in the lower back, the neck and parts of the arms and legs. The workplace can be a source of such conditions through injuries sustained from one-off accidents or through poorly managed working practices that lead to conditions developing over time.

The Health and Safety Executive has noted that MSK conditions can be caused by a number of things, including, but not limited to: lifting heavy loads, working with handheld power tools, long-distance driving or driving over rough ground, working with display screen equipment, and repetitive work that sees an individual using the same hand or arm action over a period of time. HSE statistics show that the industries with the most reported incidents of musculoskeletal disorders are agriculture, construction, health and social care, and transport and logistics.

It is clearly important to ensure that healthy working practices are the norm and that mitigations are put in place where such movements are required. That might include ensuring that there are sufficient breaks from routine activities. The Health and Safety Executive has reported that 35.2 million days were lost due to work-related ill health in Great Britain in 2022-23. MSK disorders accounted for 6.6 million of those lost days and was the second highest cause after stress, depression or anxiety. Research from the charity Versus Arthritis suggests that over 20 million people—around a third of the UK population—live with an MSK condition. For current UK employees, the figure is one in 10.

Of course, we have to remember that a lot of people have to give up work precisely because they have an MSK condition. According to the Government's statistics, the employment rate for people who have an MSK condition and are classified as disabled was 57.5% in 2022-23. In contrast, the employment rate for the whole population was much higher at 75.7%. Versus Arthritis estimates that the cost of working days lost due to osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis, which are just two of the many types of MSK conditions, was £2.5 billion in 2017, and that that figure will rise to £3.43 billion by 2030. In 2022, the Government’s Office for Health Improvement and Disparities stated that musculoskeletal conditions represent the third largest area of NHS spend, costing around £5 billion a year. The report cited a 2016 study based on 2012-13 costs, and so is not recent. It would be helpful if the Government could revisit this and provide a more up-to-date figure.

The scale of the problem demands a clear and focused response from the Government. In short, the Government should come forward with a cross-departmental MSK strategy. That strategy must set out how the Government will seek to promote good MSK health, reduce the risk of accidents and practices in the workplace that lead to or exacerbate MSK conditions and ensure that support is there for people who need it through positive workplace practices and, where appropriate, the use of equipment, devices and assistive technologies. They should also invest far more in the provision of leisure centres and swimming pools, particularly in deprived areas, so that people can manage and improve their health, and should increase investment in research into MSK conditions. Ministers should consult with stakeholders including clinicians, health and safety experts, trade union health and safety representatives, employers and employees when coming up with this strategy.

Those who are in work need the right support so that they can remain in work, and those who are looking for work need to know of the support that is available to help them get back into employment. Modern design and technology can improve working conditions for people with some MSK conditions, yet people can often feel awkward asking for such adjustments.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I commend the hon. Member for Wirral West (Margaret Greenwood) for bringing this important issue forward for us to consider. I apologise to you, Dame Caroline, and to the hon. Lady because, unfortunately, I cannot be here for the debate because I have to attend a Northern Ireland Affairs Committee session. I will just make this point: in Northern Ireland, we have almost half a million sufferers of MSK. That equates to a quarter of the population. Does the hon. Lady agree that we need to enable working people to continue working by providing support and help? I think she does, and I believe that the Minister will as well. The Government must offer support to small businesses to ensure that they know how to make a reasonable adjustment to allow someone who wants to work to do so, rather than having to take sick leave, which they do not want to do.

[Margaret Greenwood]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Support is needed particularly for small businesses who may struggle to understand and source what is required to support people, and to have the confidence to do so and the understanding that it is a positive investment in their workforce. He makes a really important point. I am also very glad that he cited the scale of the issue in Northern Ireland. One in four is incredibly high, so we need a focused response as a matter of urgency, and I thank him for that point.

There should be absolutely no stigma around having an MSK condition, nor for asking for help in relation to it. For example, in an office environment, it should be common practice that employees are made to feel comfortable in speaking up if they face issues, and that adjustments and equipment such as sit-stand desks, voice recognition software, a vertical mouse, split keyboards and other ergonomic computer equipment are made available to people if that would support their MSK health.

The strategy to which I have referred should be launched alongside a large public awareness campaign so that everyone can be involved and benefit. The Access to Work scheme provides important support for people who are disabled or have a health condition that impacts on their ability to get work or stay in work, but it seems that not nearly enough people know about it.

There has been much evidence to suggest that many people who could benefit from the scheme do not know that it exists. Indeed, I have heard it referred to as the Government’s best-kept secret. In 2021-22, only around one in eight—just over 4500 people—who received support from Access to Work had an MSK condition. The Work and Pensions Committee has highlighted that the application process can be complex and difficult for people to navigate. We therefore need a much greater effort from the Government to raise awareness of the scheme and the benefits that it can bring.

For example, the Government could make it a legal requirement for all employers to inform new and existing employees about Access to Work and to provide a point of contact for any employee who thinks they might benefit from it. This would highlight and promote the scheme, and it would give the opportunity for expertise to be developed within workplaces to support MSK health.

The Government must also give thought to the fact that over 7 million adults in England have very poor literacy skills. It is vital that information about the scheme is presented in a way that is easy for them to understand. Last year, the Government published their “Transforming Support” White Paper, which, among other things, pledged to pilot a new Access to Work enhanced package for people who need more support than the existing scheme can provide. How does the Minister envisage that that will benefit those with MSK conditions specifically? The White Paper also spoke of Access to Work developing an innovative digital service. Will the Minister guarantee that changes will be mindful of the fact that so many adults struggle with literacy and digital skills?

It is disappointing that the Government are failing to administer the Access to Work scheme promptly. In a response to a written question from my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Vicky Foxcroft), who will respond on behalf of the Opposition this morning, the responding Minister said that 21,780 applications were outstanding on 5 September last year. That is 21,780 people waiting to receive support for their health condition. It is completely unacceptable. I ask the Minister to update the House on the current state of affairs.

The last Labour party manifesto committed to help disabled people who want to work by bringing back specialist employment advisers and introducing a Government-backed reasonable adjustments passport scheme to help people move between jobs more easily. In their White Paper, the Government said:

“Access to Work is supporting a series of Adjustment Passport trials. The Adjustment Passport will provide a living document of the disabled person’s workplace adjustments, general working requirements and signposts adjustment support at every stage of the journey into work.”

Will the Minister give more information on these trials and how they are going? Can she say what actions her Department has taken to ensure that the passports are user-friendly for people who have problems with literacy?

The Government can promote MSK health and prevent issues from arising through specific campaigns developed with the expertise of health professionals and occupational therapists. They can also legislate for good working practices. It is important that the Government lead on creating positive workplace cultures around promoting MSK health, but for this to be most effective, they need to look at the issue from the employee’s perspective. Under the Equality Act 2010, employers must make “reasonable adjustments” to workplaces, working practices and policies or procedures, to remove or reduce any disadvantages faced by workers that are related to their disabilities. However, it can be difficult for people to raise concerns in the workplace, especially if their job is insecure. People on zero-hours contracts are a particular risk in this regard.

One of the key sectors in which MSK has an impact is transport and logistics, and we know that many delivery drivers are on zero-hour contracts. Health and care is another key sector affected; again, many in the care sector are on zero-hour contracts. Clearly, then, banning zero-hour contracts, as Labour would do, is important not just to ensure that people know that they have stable work and a reliable income, but to prevent a race to the bottom in health and safety at work. The Health and Safety Executive is responsible for inspecting organisations and enforcing statutory duties in relation to health and safety law. The HSE can investigate businesses and has the power to bring enforcement proceedings, including prosecutions, in cases of serious failures. Its work is incredibly important, yet the HSE’s funding has been savagely cut since 2010.

Analysis last year from the Prospect trade union found that Government funding for the HSE decreased by 45% in cash terms between 2010 and 2019, from £228 million to £126 million. Funding increased to £185 million in 2022, but this still represents a huge decrease from 2010 levels. Prospect’s research also highlighted staff cuts of 35% across the HSE since 2010, while the number of inspectors has fallen by 18%. These cuts are an attack on the health and safety of all of us, and I call on the Government to review the needs of the HSE and restore funding to at least 2010 levels. We cannot allow the Government’s obsession with austerity to damage our health and safety.

The Government could also promote MSK health and prevent issues from arising by supporting the “Better Bones” campaign, which is led by the Royal Osteoporosis Society and the Sunday Express and backed by many organisations, including the Federation of Small Businesses, Parkinson’s UK, Coeliac UK and a number of unions and royal colleges. Some 50% of women and 20% of men over the age of 50 will have a fracture caused by osteoporosis—staggering rates. A third of those who have a fracture and have osteoporosis will have to leave their jobs.

Fracture liaison services can do invaluable work in identifying whether people have osteoporosis. However, only 51% of NHS trusts in England have them. As a result, many people will break bones and go to A&E, and will be seen without their underlying osteoporosis being diagnosed and treated. That leaves a massive risk that they will suffer further, more serious fractures in the future. As a result of this postcode lottery, around 90,000 people a year are missing out on important diagnosis for a condition for which they could otherwise receive medication that would reduce their risk of further fractures.

The “Better Bones” campaign is calling for access for all over-50s to fracture liaison services with dedicated bone specialists, £30 million a year of extra investment to make fracture liaison services universal in England, Wales and Scotland, and the appointment of a fractures tsar for each British nation. It was therefore extremely disappointing that there was no extra funding in the autumn statement for fracture liaison clinics, despite the Minister in the Lords saying in September:

“We are proposing to announce, in the forthcoming Autumn Statement, a package of prioritised measures to expand the provision of fracture liaison services and improve their current quality. NHS England is also setting up a fracture liaison service expert steering group”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 14 September 2023; Vol. 832, c. GC241.]

That is especially disappointing from a Government who claim that they want to try to help people over 50 to get back into work. It is disappointing too that, in July, the then Secretary of State for Health and Social Care said that the Government planned to spend more than £8 billion from 2022-23 to 2024-25 to support elective recovery, with NHS England prioritising fracture liaison services in its elective recovery plan. However, in the end, fracture liaison services were not even mentioned in the elective recovery plan.

The Government must address the shortcomings in fracture liaison services, which would contribute to helping over-50s back into work, and I ask the Minister to press this point with ministerial colleagues. As the Federation of Small Businesses said of the “Better Bones” campaign, it

“is more than a health initiative—it’s a matter of economic vitality. We need to address the increased numbers of those who have left the workplace as employees, self-employed or small business owners themselves due to sickness. This campaign is one of those steps.”

The Government can support workers with MSK conditions, too, by ensuring flexible working from day one, as a Labour Government would do. We also need to see action from Government on people’s general health and MSK conditions through investment in the health and wellbeing of all communities.

Versus Arthritis argues that being overweight or obese increases the risk of developing arthritis conditions such as osteoarthritis and gout. It also points out that swimming is a good exercise for people with musculoskeletal conditions, such as arthritis or back pain. The water helps to support the weight of the body, which reduces strain on painful joints. The Government should also promote MSK health by ensuring people can access facilities such as swimming pools and leisure centres.

Sadly, central Government cuts to local government since 2010 have resulted in many pools and leisure centres closing across the country, including in my own constituency of Wirral West. During the campaign to save the Woodchurch Leisure Centre and swimming pool, I remember people telling me how they used the pool to cope with arthritis. The loss of this facility has been devastating for many people trying to manage MSK conditions in my constituency and it is doubtless the same for people across the country.

Government strategy must look at the impact of austerity policies on sport and leisure facilities and at the impact that this has on the health of the population. Musculoskeletal issues cause serious problems for millions of people and can have a devastating impact on an individual’s working life. The high prevalence of such conditions warrants a high-profile, cross-departmental policy intervention. I to pay tribute to all those who work so hard to promote safe and healthy working environments, including the HSE professionals, occupational therapists and of course hard-working trade union health and safety reps who do such invaluable work in identifying workplace issues and campaigning for greater safety for working people.

The Government must bring forward a cross-departmental MSK strategy with clear goals to improve prevention and to support those with MSK conditions. Failure to do so will only lead to continuing costs to people’s health and happiness and continuing costs to the Exchequer for NHS and social security spending. The benefits of taking action on MSK are clear to all, and I call on the Government to do just that.

09:47

[Tom Randall (Gedling) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dame Caroline. I congratulate the hon. Member for Wirral West (Margaret Greenwood) for bringing this very important subject to the House. This is a timely debate and, as she outlined in her speech, getting various parts of the population into work and getting people back into work are popular with the Government at the moment, but they are important on their own terms as well. She properly outlined the human cost that these conditions cause in her speech. Via the charity Versus Arthritis, which does so much good work in this field, one of my Gedling constituents commented on her condition:

“Living with arthritis changes you and turns your world upside down.”

I know that that will be the experience of many people.

Although the human cost is very important—and perhaps the most important factor—it is worth focusing on the economic cost, given that the focus of this debate is employment. It is also worth looking at some of the steps that the Government are taking to try to mitigate this. Conditions such as arthritis in the popular imagination are perhaps still thought of as being something that affects pensioners. That is the popular image, but we know, and we should know, that it is far more widespread than that. More than 10 million people in the UK—one in six of our constituents—have arthritis; that is one in six of our constituents with pain or fatigue and with restricted mobility. People with arthritis are 20% less likely to be in work than people without arthritis and 12% of sickness absence in the NHS between September 2021 and August 2022 was due to back problems and other MSK conditions, which illustrates how widespread this is.

I declare an interest as the co-chair of the all-party parliamentary group for axial spondyloarthritis, but the charity that supports people in that space, the National Axial Spondyloarthritis Society, estimates that a patient aged 26, who has waited eight and a half years for an axial spondyloarthritis diagnosis is likely to lose around £187,000 in their life, the majority of which derives from a loss of productivity due to reduced employment. The average patient incurs costs of around £61,000 in out-of-pocket expenses while waiting for a diagnosis, including the cost of medication, travelling to appointments and private healthcare appointments such as visits to chiropractors. The scale of this issue is quite staggering. According to the Office for National Statistics, 23.3 million working days were lost in 2021 due to musculoskeletal conditions. The cost of working days lost due to osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis was estimated at £2.58 billion in 2017, rising to £3.43 billion by 2030. There is a definite need to address this with some urgency.

In that light, I welcome the announcement in the last Budget of over £400 million in funding for employment support and resources within MSK and mental health services, with £100 million specifically to support people with MSK conditions. That funding includes tailored employment support within MSK and mental health services in England, including expanding the well-established and successful individual placement and support scheme and scaling up MSK hubs in the community. The experiences of people with arthritis and MSK conditions must be at the heart of that extension and the development of new services, to ensure that the Government create efficient resources that meet the needs of people with MSK conditions. I understand that the IPS scheme is already well established for people with mental health problems and they are usually referred to it from within the healthcare system. Having that support on offer and available to people with arthritis and MSK conditions could mean that they find suitable work that does not have a negative impact on their MSK health.

The Government have said that they will ensure digital resources such as apps for the management of mental health and MSK conditions are readily available so that more people can easily access the right support for them. I hope that that will include employment support. While the Budget leans towards a digital first approach, as everything does these days, I hope that the combination of apps and tailored employment support within a community will allow people to access support in a variety of ways and choose the method that suits them.

I also welcome the recent announcement that employment advisers will be introduced into MSK pathways to support people with MSK conditions back into work. People with arthritis and MSK conditions need equitable access to employment support programmes.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

On the issue of employment support, does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is important that advisers and people in that position understand some of the lesser-known conditions? For example, I have had some experience of syringomyelia of the spinal cord. Knowledge and experience of such conditions at an early stage can help considerably to keep people in work or get them back into work if they have been off.

[Tom Randall]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. We need to be smart. We can talk about MSK as an umbrella term, but within that there are lots of different conditions with different symptoms that affect people differently. That is where we need to be smart. Some people will have conditions that enable them to work on some days, while flare-ups on another day might prevent them from doing so. A one-size-fits-all approach is probably less likely to work. If we are serious about getting people back into work, which we should be, we need to be creative about that and try to recognise, as the hon. Gentleman said, the broad range and spectrum of conditions and how they affect different people. That is a difficult task, but it is something we should certainly aim for.

Programmes such as Access to Work may not, on the surface, appear relevant to many people with arthritis who might not consider themselves to have a disability, but they need to have access to such programmes. Following the hon. Gentleman’s comments, the potential impact of arthritis and MSK conditions on people’s ability to work and their experiences of work can be misunderstood, particularly when the severity of conditions fluctuates unpredictably over time. I hope that, as he said, employment advisers are skilled and confident in supporting people with arthritis and MSK conditions, and that they receive the training they need to know how they affect people’s experiences of employment.

Perhaps the most important thing we need is a change of mindset. Over recent decades, we have revolutionised the way in which we approach wheelchair users and talk about mental health in the workplace: we are more positive about and accommodating of various things. We have been open, embraced that and made the necessary adaptations to bring people into the workplace, but we have not quite got there with musculoskeletal conditions, arthritis and other things. The Government and employers should create flexible workplaces so that people can participate in society. That change of mind—that forward thinking—will be good not only for society and the Exchequer but, most importantly, for the people involved. Instead of being at home in pain, they will be out in employment, which will be fulfilling and good for them. That is what we should be aiming for. It will perhaps be a long process, as it is about changing minds, but we should commit ourselves to it today.

09:56

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

I want to continue in the same spirit as the hon. Member for Gedling (Tom Randall). It is entertaining and sometimes enjoyable to have debates in which we just kick the Government and other political parties, but Westminster Hall debates are often a way to share information about our own experience of policy development and our constituents with the hope that the noise we make is listened to by the Minister and their advisers. We often find that there are shared issues that we can all learn from.

As the hon. Gentleman said, in the past there was almost a stigma around MSK conditions. Back pain was seen as an easy excuse to pull a sickie, when actually it is incredibly significant for individuals’ lives and, as the hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Margaret Greenwood) said, for the economy overall. I congratulate my hon. Friend on putting this issue on the agenda.

I want to go through the experience of my constituency and set out what has led me to the debate. At Heathrow airport, which is in my constituency, there was almost an epidemic of back injuries among baggage handlers. Some Members may recall, when they went through the airport over the years, that there were different campaigns about the weight of the baggage. Although mechanisation was introduced, the work nevertheless involves physical exercise, so we had an epidemic of people who were going sick as a result of back pain. We went through all those allegations of people fraudulently going sick, but when we did the investigations, working with the employer and the trade unions, we discovered the scale of the back injuries over almost a generation, along with the consequences.

The lesson we learned is that, through joint campaigning with the employer, the trade unions and local health bodies, we were able to introduce practices that minimised the damage that was being done to these individual workers, even though the problem continues. For large employers, it is easier. The epidemic of back injuries in my constituency at the moment is among smaller employers, whose actions are often on the margins of legality and they fail to take reasonable care of their employees.

Through airport campaigns, which involved Unite, GMB, the Public and Commercial Services Union and other unions coming together, we found that we needed engagement with the HSE at the earliest stage. We need guidance in place that can be applied so that the employers recognise their responsibilities and the trade unions representing their members can enforce the guidance through negotiation and, if necessary, through various forms of industrial action if individual employers are not adhering to those guidelines.

This is not in any way an attack on the Government or anything like that, but I want to flag up the resourcing of HSE, which my hon. Friend raised. There is an issue here that has to be addressed. I know that individual Ministers have to fight their corner with the Treasury for resources in their patch. Whenever the Minister goes into budget negotiations for her field again, she will have cross-party support for securing additional resources for the HSE. The current denial of those resources means that inspection and intervention processes are not working as effectively as they should to prevent actions that put people’s livelihoods in danger as a result of back injuries. One problem is that small companies are infrequently inspected these days, which means that incidents are arising where companies are ignoring basic guidelines set out by the HSE.

With regard to incidence, my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West has set out the scale of the problems. I want to congratulate Versus Arthritis, which works so hard. We are all drawing on the briefing we received from the organisation.

[Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab)]

My right hon. Friend, who is a near neighbour of mine as a Heathrow MP, is making a powerful case. He mentioned Versus Arthritis, of which my constituent, Julian Worricker —as a media person, you will know him, Dame Caroline —is a champion, as am I. My right hon. Friend talked about big or large employers. Some of their advice is well intentioned, such as the information on diet for people with arthritis, saying they should have oily fish, omega 5, extra virgin olive oil and all this healthy stuff. In a cost of living crisis, that may be difficult for people to buy when it is so much cheaper to get Iceland stuff for 99p or whatever it is, with loads of fat in it. Does my right hon. Friend agree with me?

[John McDonnell]

I am glad my hon. Friend has raised that matter in advance of my raising it. Poverty almost certainly relates to that, as it does to work practices, particularly with regard to hours of work. Fatigue then leaves people open to making mistakes at work, particularly around handling goods, heavy lifting and not following practices because they are just so tired. In addition, my hon. Friend’s point about diet is fundamental. A number of constituents have seen me and said, “This is the advice from my local doctor or whoever about what I should be eating, but I literally can’t afford it,” or they do not have the support they need to enable them to go on a path of healthier living and a healthier diet.

Versus Arthritis also made the point that for many of our constituents with these injuries, in the winter conditions, the cold affects them. There is nothing in the financial support that we give people that reflects or effectively deals with the incidence of cold. From the briefing we have all received, for my constituency the figure is 15,000 people. In other words, one in six people in my constituency have some form of condition. They are in pain, they experience fatigue and at times have restricted mobility. That is an epidemic by any calculation, and it has an impact on the economy overall. However, for many of the constituents I have met, it is also savaging their quality of life and, as a result, some of us have a sense of urgency about the need for action.

I have to raise the issue of waiting times for diagnosis and treatment, which has become a real problem. In my area, the numbers waiting more than a year for operations and interventions are better than some: the national average is 6%, whereas in my area it is 3%. We are performing better than the national average, but even 3%, which is a couple of hundred people waiting more than a year in my area, is a significant number. Hon. Members will know that when we meet those people, they are waiting in real pain and I am finding that the mental health consequences are significant too. People are desperate to support their families and they feel guilty that they are not doing so. At the same time, they are frustrated because they literally do not know what to do in that waiting period. I come to the points the hon. Member for Gedling made with regard to support and access to work. I cannot agree with him more about the significance of this. While I welcome the additional funding that has come from Government, we have found in the past—this relates to the work capability assessment, which I will come on to—a lack of expertise in assessment and advice. Exactly as the hon. Gentleman said, there is a range of conditions and, in many instances, very specific advice is needed—even at first assessment. We have to bring relevant expertise into the pathways at every stage and be capable of drawing on that, otherwise we just get things wrong. If the wrong advice is given, that adds to the pressure and stress on the individual.

The issue with the work capability assessment, which we have been dealing with since its inception, is—to be frank—the brutality of it. The regime has now become even harsher. We have been in debates here on a number of occasions, and we have even heard of suicides taking place as a result of the work capability assessment implementation. That relates to the lack of expertise in the assessment. Harsh conditions are placed on people who cannot meet those conditions, and as a result they lose their benefits. In addition to losing their benefits, there is a feeling of guilt and ostracisation in the community itself, and a stigma attached.

It is important that the Minister sits down with the Public and Commercial Services Union, which represents the civil servants administering these benefits. They are saying to us that their caseloads have increased dramatically, and that as a result they do not feel they have sufficient staff to deal with individual cases effectively. The pressure that many of their members are under is unacceptable, and the problem of being able to deal with their caseload properly has become insurmountable.

My final point is about the strategy for the future. The key thing that comes out of discussion with virtually every organisation we meet, whether it is Versus Arthritis or the Royal Osteoporosis Society, is the importance of engagement with the sufferers themselves and their representatives. It is similar to the disability principle, “Nothing about us without us.” Engagement with MSK sufferers is absolutely key to developing the future strategy. I also put in a plea for engagement with the trade unions representing many of the workers who have been involved in back injury cases and in prevention work. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) made a point about small businesses. The Federation of Small Businesses has really been helpful on a whole range of these issues, not only about how it can advise its members on best practice, but also reporting back on what it feels are impediments to getting people back into work, and the support needed for small businesses to make reasonable adjustments for people suffering from these conditions.

There is a desperate need to move forward. I welcome what additional money there is, but it will not be used effectively unless there is proper engagement with all concerned with the experience that we have had over the last generation. In my constituency, I am hoping that we can overcome the issues of access to proper advice and to health treatment, and do much more on the preventive side, because many of my constituents are disabled for life as a result of past practices.

10:09

[Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dame Caroline. I warmly congratulate the hon. Member for Wirral West (Margaret Greenwood) on securing this really important debate. I am grateful to Versus Arthritis and to the British Society for Rheumatology for their very helpful briefings. I listened with great interest to the right hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), and I absolutely agree with him that Westminster Hall is more conducive to sharing ideas, rather than just having a go at the Government. However, as the SNP spokesperson, I always have to give the Scottish perspective on things in this place, so I will do a fair bit of that this morning—not for too long, I hasten to add.

We have heard of the number of working days lost because of musculoskeletal conditions, which I will now refer to as MSK conditions, for everyone’s sake—especially those from Hansard who are here. It is really important that the Government change attitudes to people with disabilities such as MSK conditions. We have to support those people, improve their access to work and help them stay in work.

Let us look at what we tried to do in Scotland, and some of the issues that we are really concerned about. We in the SNP are deeply concerned about the changes to work capability assessments, which will lead to disabled people and those with long-term health conditions being put at risk of sanctions. We know that sanctions do not work—we have the evidence—and we really feel that they are not the way forward. More support for people who have been unemployed for a long time is welcome, but sanctions should not form part of that. We do not support mandatory work placements, either.

People with MSK, arthritis and similar conditions often have to give up work because they cannot continue, and they cannot live on statutory sick pay if they have to take short-term absences from work. If the Government are serious about closing the disability employment gap, they have to start providing statutory sick pay that treats workers with dignity. It is ridiculous that recipients get only £109.40 a week; that is wholly inadequate, and is among the lowest amounts in Europe. The Government should look at increasing SSP in line with a real living wage. We also want the Government to provide guidance to employers on reasonable adjustments, and to create statutory timescales for their implementation. We are all agreed that we want people to be able to work, but we need to give them the right support.

The right hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington and others have talked about how difficult things are for people with long-term conditions, especially MSK conditions. They need to dig deep into their household budget to be able to eat properly and keep warm—that is currently a huge problem. The SNP has asked many times for a social energy tariff, and I requested a debate on that in this very place. We need measures to help people return to work properly, when they can and want to.

It is absolutely ridiculous that there has still been no mention of work practices, nor any movement since the Taylor review was first published. We keep hearing promises from the Government, but action is not happening. The SNP’s vision is for Scotland to be a fair work nation by 2025, where fair work drives success, wellbeing and prosperity for individuals, business organisations and the whole of society. That means that we have to look at the drivers of workplace inequality and ensure that everyone is supported to enter into work and progress. That is making a difference: in Scotland people are happy, and want to sign up to the fair work scheme. I know that everyone here wants things to become better. We really need to improve things, but in Scotland we cannot do that on our own, because workers’ rights remain firmly in the hands of Westminster.

We need to look at this issue. The Smith commission tried to look at it, but we were outvoted by Labour and the Tory Government at the time. In Scotland, we want—indeed, we need—the right to set our own agenda for fair work practices. It is really important that people with MSK conditions are able to participate in work fully and do not spend months and months waiting for access to work. Also, when they have to take time off work, they should receive proper statutory sick pay. Then they can go back into the workplace and can continue to contribute to society.

I thank everyone here. We have covered a wide range of issues, and I will listen carefully to the Opposition spokesperson, and especially to the Minister who responds to this very important debate.

10:15

[Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure, Dame Caroline, to serve under your chairship, and I am grateful for the opportunity to respond to this debate on behalf of the shadow work and pensions team.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Margaret Greenwood) on securing this debate. She is absolutely right to say that the Government must have a cross-departmental strategy to address this issue, and must ensure that the Health and Safety Executive is properly funded to ensure that all of us are safe in the workplace. They do that alongside trade unions. Many important points have been made in the debate and I hope that the Minister will respond to them in detail.

I apologise to my right hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), because I must make a little criticism of the Government and nudge them at this point. The Minister will already be aware of my thoughts about the Prime Minister’s decision to downgrade her role as the Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work. I assure her that I will do all I can to get her and her role repromoted to where they should be. It is so important that we do that.

The number of people who are economically inactive because of long-term sickness has risen to over 2.5 million, which is an increase of more than 400,000 since the start of the pandemic, and the figure is now higher than ever. That has a huge impact on our economy, as well as on individuals’ health, wellbeing and ability to support themselves and their families.

The increase in the number of people off work because of long-term sickness since the pandemic is costing the country an extra £15.7 billion a year. Along with mental health conditions, musculoskeletal conditions—or MSK conditions, as I will refer to them, to make sure that I do not pronounce “musculoskeletal” incorrectly—are one of the main reasons for long-term sickness. They affect one in five of the people defined as being economically inactive.

As my right hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington said so eloquently and respectfully, we need proper resourcing of the HSE. That is really important in terms of cross-departmental working. Also, the HSE is a very powerful example of employers, trade unions and others working together. He cited the example of baggage handling workers. I was personally involved with such work myself before I was an MP, when I was working for Unite the union. There was a really strong campaign for those workers, and it really made a difference for them.

Over 20 million people in the UK, or almost a third of the population, have an MSK condition. However, with NHS waiting lists at a near-record high, people are waiting months for trauma treatment or orthopaedic treatment. As many people have already said, according to Versus Arthritis, over 1 million people are waiting for such treatment, many of them having to put their life on hold while they wait. In 2021 alone, arthritis and other MSK conditions resulted in the loss of 23.3 million working days.

Last month, I asked the Minister several written questions on what steps her Department is taking to help people with MSK conditions to re-enter the workforce. First, I would like to place on record my concern about the fact that the Department has made no estimate of the number of people awaiting treatment. That prompts the question of whether it really has a grip on the extent of the problem. In her response, the Minister outlined the package of measures set out in the spring Budget and the autumn statement to tackle the leading health-related causes of economic inactivity, including MSK conditions. Those measures include introducing employment advisers into MSK services, developing and scaling up MSK community hubs, and making the best use of digital health technologies, alongside various pilots and commitments to exploring new ways of providing timely support and improving occupational health problems. That is not ambitious. It is simply more pilots, and more exploring what to do, from a Government who have been in power for over 13 years. Furthermore, will the Government be open and transparent, and publish the details of those pilots? I have asked for this information in many written parliamentary questions, and sadly they are not forthcoming.

I would like to touch on two initiatives, the first of which is Access to Work. The Minister already knows some of my thoughts on this, but I will reiterate them. Her predecessor, the hon. Member for Corby (Tom Pursglove), when asked numerous times, continued to assure me that the Department for Work and Pensions has increased the number of staff working to clear the Access to Work backlog, but it does not appear to be going down. In November 2022, the backlog was 25,281, but a year later, it was 24,339. I think we will all agree that there is not much sign of progress.

Secondly, the much-criticised Disability Confident scheme is also in need of urgent reform. Recent analysis by Disability@Work shows that even employers who have achieved level 3—the highest level—are no more likely to employ disabled people than those who have not signed up to the scheme. It also shows that disabled people working for Disability Confident employers do not report better experiences than those working for employers who are not members of the scheme. The Minister’s predecessor admitted to the Work and Pensions Committee in the summer that it was time for a root-and-branch review of Disability Confident, so I am interested to know what progress has been made. I also want to add my voice to calls for an update on when the major conditions strategy will be published.

I end as others have, by paying tribute to the organisations that support people with MSK conditions—many are here today and without them many people would be struggling even more than they already are. I reiterate what my right hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington said. Government must engage with those affected by these conditions. After all, these people are the experts by experience.

10:23

[The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work (Mims Davies)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Dame Caroline, and I thank the hon. Member for Wirral West (Margaret Greenwood) for introducing today’s debate in a constructive, positive and very interesting way. As the Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work, it is an honour early on in my tenure to talk about the Government’s commitment to enabling people with musculoskeletal conditions to start work, stay in work, and importantly succeed in work, which is what today’s debate is about, and it was an honour to hear from Members on all those matters. As the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows) said, the spirit and context of the debate is extremely important. I thank the hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Vicky Foxcroft). We have always had a very constructive and positive relationship. I look forward to working with her on her challenges to us, and all her asks across Government; I note all of these. As hon. Members might note, I have a lot of material here. Whether I can get to all of it we will see, but I hope to share the Government’s ambition for this society as one where disabled people and those with health conditions can fulfil their potential when it comes to employment, and one where they have the fair rights and access that we all want for them.

My mum lived with osteoporosis and rheumatoid arthritis, and she worked with disabled adults; my dad lived with a head injury for more than 25 years under the Court of Protection, and I am a coeliac, so despite the height of my role, I want to reassure those in the Gallery and those listening to the debate that my convening power is no less and my commitment is no less, but I understand the asks from the hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford—and on her advocacy for my promotion, one could ask for nothing else.

The joint Department for Work and Pensions and Department of Health and Social Care work and health directorate was set up in 2015 to recognise the extremely strong links between work and health and the importance for health of good work, which has been highlighted today. I pay tribute to those doing the “Better Bones” campaign. As the Minister who was predominantly responsible for the HSE for a number of years, I assure the right hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) that I have paid close attention to the issue, and I hope that the HSE’s representatives will come to Parliament shortly to give us all an update on their work. The responsibility sits with my noble Friend Lord Younger now, but I will be working very strongly with him.

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling (Tom Randall) and others on the subjects of prevention, tackling stigma and keenly engaging with those who understand this matter. Supporting and empowering those with MSK conditions is very important to me—I hope I have outlined why—both in this new role and in my capacity as a local MP. In fact, in that capacity, I invited my ministerial predecessor, who is now the Minister for Legal Migration and the Border, my hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Tom Pursglove)— I pay tribute to his work and his commitment on this subject—to visit VIM Health. This gives me an opportunity to mention Tom from VIM Health and all his team, all his patients and the work done in this specialist neurological rehabilitation centre and MSK therapy service, which I have seen. My hon. Friend and I agreed that it was incredibly inspiring to see how innovative technologies can make healthcare more accessible, enjoyable and transformative. This gym helps with rehab, and also makes accessible exercise, and other things that many of us take for granted. We talked about the pools, and I will come on to that later.

I am looking forward to meeting representatives of Versus Arthritis later this month; I met them at the party conference. Like others, I extend my thanks to third sector organisations for the important work that they do, and the knowledge that they impart to us in Westminster, to raise awareness and to support people living with MSK conditions, helping them to fulfil their potential in the workplace. As we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling, this is about a change of mindset. Work is so much more than a pay packet. It increases people’s wellbeing; it increases their network and their confidence. At times when their health is perhaps failing or fluctuating, nothing is more important than having confidence, a network and support, and that very much comes from work.

[Margaret Greenwood]

I appreciate the tone that the Minister is taking in the debate. On that point about mindset, would she look at perhaps requiring employers to inform new employees about Access to Work when they start, to make it quite a routine thing, and so that people know about it and can have an up-front conversation about all areas of their health, but particularly MSK health? I ask because from the point of view of the person who is suffering, it can be extremely difficult to raise an issue that they know will cause bother for their manager, perhaps cost them money and so on.

[Mims Davies]

I thank the hon. Lady for that point. In fact, in preparing for this debate and seeking to understand the issue further, this was something that we discussed and I was interested in. Gatwick is not far away from my constituency, and many constituents work there, and some of them work in passenger assist, getting people on and off planes. Being able to talk to employers confidently and comfortably is really important.

When someone’s health changes, it is often a bolt from the blue. How do they manage that with their employer? That is something that I am very focused on, and it covers the Access to Work programme and the Disability Confident scheme.

I will come on to Disability Confident, but we need to move this from being a nice thing on a website to a reality for people working in whatever sector and with all employers. We have taken that approach with menopause and the debilitating impact that it can have for women of all ages, including in the workplace. All of this, in the round, is very important when it comes to staying in work and thriving in work, which is what we ultimately want for everybody.

For context, around a third of the UK population—over 20 million people—live with an MSK condition. As we said, we do not want people to feel that leaving employment is the only option, and the Government absolutely recognise that good work is generally good for health, as we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling and the hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford. MSK interventions to improve workforce participation were key when it comes to the £400 million health package in the 2023 spring Budget.

Let me go through some what the Government are doing. We are introducing employment advisers within MSK services to support people with conditions to thrive in work, help them to have those conversations and, above all, assist with engaging with employers. We are developing and scaling up MSK hubs in the community. Building on existing local practice, hubs will offer people with MSK conditions access to physical activity interventions in leisure centre or community settings—as we have heard—and we will explore how to embed vocational advice too. We will also be making the most of digital health technologies to support people with MSK conditions to better manage those symptoms and remain in work, and that will include digital therapeutics.

The reality is we are all living longer, and long-term sickness is a common reason for economic inactivity among the working-age population. Therefore, the Government rightly have an ambitious programme to support disabled people and those with health conditions, including MSK, to start, stay and succeed in work. That includes variety of interventions, which we have heard about today: Disability Confident, the Access to Work grants, the Work and Health Programme, and a digital information service for employers in relation this. Employers knowing how to manage and to have those conversations equally with employees will make a real difference, and of course there are also our own disability employment advisers in DWP. I will be engaging directly with all groups and stakeholders to make sure this works, and I will be putting myself, as I always do, in the place of our claimants and of those people that that need help.

[Margaret Greenwood]

I thank the Minister for giving way; she is being very generous.

On helping people to engage in activities that will improve their health, the closure of swimming pools is really serious. In my constituency, we have lost the swimming pool in the Woodchurch estate. I met users there—we were fighting against the closure—and they were clear that they were using the pool to deal with two things: mental health issues and arthritis. That particular estate has a higher-than-average level of deprivation, a higher-than-average level of disability, and more older people living there. For them, the closure has been catastrophic. I recognise that that is not the Minister’s Department, but will she talk with ministerial colleagues and look again at the provision of sport and leisure facilities, particularly in areas of deprivation, so that those people can improve their own health?

[Mims Davies]

I thank the hon. Lady for reiterating that point for her constituents. These hubs in the community will deliver both that physical activity and those interventions. I understand her point, and I know that support for pools has come to councils from the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport. What the hon. Member has said is very specific, and I will take that away in the cross-Government work that I am doing. I think, as well, that it is a lesson for many of our local authorities to think very carefully about the decisions they make and how they affect the whole community. It is vital that people understand that the wider impact might involve losing more than just swimming lessons—and that is not easy in itself. The hon. Member has rightly put that on the record for her constituents.

Employment advice and NHS talking therapies will be included in our interventions, along with individual placement and support in primary care and increasing work coach time in jobcentres. The hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw spoke about making sure that we listen to and engage with people, and do it in the right way, and I wholeheartedly agree with that individual approach.

All these investments are part of a much wider agenda to tackle inactivity due to long-term sickness. We also announced our Back to Work plan in the autumn statement. It includes doubling the number of universal support employment programme places; increasing occupational health take-up in businesses, including SMEs, which is absolutely key; testing new ways of providing individuals receiving a fit note with timely access to their key support; and supporting people with health-related barriers to work through the 15 WorkWell pilot areas that we are working on. WorkWell is accepting applications for funding from local areas across England, with pilot areas due to be announced in April and more details in the autumn. I will be working with the Minister for Employment, my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds (Jo Churchill) on this matter.

[Vicky Foxcroft]

I thank the Minister for giving way. She has pointed to a number of Government pilots and I know there are other pilots. In my contribution, I asked whether the Government would be transparent and publish data on those pilots. Does the Minister want to put on the record whether the Government would be willing to do that?

[Mims Davies]

I thank the hon. Lady for that ask. This is still being worked out. I am conscious that one of my predecessors in DWP warned about having “more pilots than easyJet” and about making sure that they work and are right. Once we have more details, I am sure we will be in a position to share them with her, so I will come back to her on that matter. It is early in my tenure, and I want to get to grips with this. When I am in a position to share, of course I will do so.

We have talked about the impact of poor MSK health on individuals and employers. We know that over 20% of employees and self-employed people have an MSK condition and that it is a leading cause of working days being lost through sickness and absence, accounting for over 23 million lost working days. My hon. Friend the Member for Gedling spelt that out strongly. Tackling these disparities and managing these conditions are absolutely key.

When it comes to women, the older population and certain ethnic groups, understanding the prevalence and the impact of the condition and doing more on prevention are key in terms of managing and supporting people. A predominant symptom is pain, which limits people’s mobility and dexterity. Living with pain is awful, managing it is incredibly stark, and it is very difficult for people to fully participate in society, so we need to make sure that people have a healthier home and working life.

We know that osteoporosis, which causes fragility and leads to fractures, disproportionately affects women. The Government’s women’s health strategy is key to understanding specific actions to improve women’s experiences and outcomes in relation to osteoporosis. I look forward to meeting Dame Lesley Regan, our women’s health ambassador, on this matter as soon as our diaries allow. I know she is very focused on this, and we will raise the profile of those issues. I have been very engaged with her in my work on menopause and employment action, and I will continue to do that.

I have talked about supporting employers and workplaces as key enablers for disabled people with health conditions to remain in work, so let me briefly cover prevention. Adults in employment spend a large proportion of their time in work. How we are engaged with in our jobs and workplaces has a massive impact on our health. Therefore, in 2022, the Government and the Society of Occupational Medicine published the MSK health toolkit for employers and further education institutions, which encourages employers to support adolescents and young adults with MSK conditions. We have also produced the MSK toolkit for employers, which has been developed in partnership with Business in the Community and provides practical information for employers of all sizes to address MSK conditions in the workplace for the working age population. We need to look at the adjustments and support there.

I thank Thriiver in my constituency, which is a brilliant group of people who deliver around £4 million to £5 million of support through the Access to Work scheme. They gave me a stark insight into what they feel should be done, which I fed back to my predecessor. We know that the grant scheme plays a key role in enabling people. The point about literacy and digital skills has been noted. I also note that the Chairman is looking at me, so I will conclude.

There are a few matters that I might write to Members about. I think we have all agreed that poor MSK health has a significant impact. The delays to Access to Work are improving—we have been forensic on that. People need support from employers, from Government, the wider economy and the NHS. We will continue to focus on good jobs to help everybody thrive and have fulfilling lives, with the benefit of health and wellbeing behind them. That is the best route out of poverty.

10:41

[Margaret Greenwood]

I thank everybody who has taken part in this important debate for their points. I also thank the many organisations, some of whom I have already referenced, that have been in touch with me in advance of today’s debate to offer briefings and expertise. I run the risk of missing someone out, so I will say that those organisations include but are not limited to the Society of Occupational Medicine, MSK Aware, On the Mend, the Royal Osteoporosis Society, the Chartered Institute of Ergonomics, Orthopaedic Research UK, Versus Arthritis, the British Society for Rheumatology, and ukactive.

I also want to thank the individuals who have been in touch with me to share their experiences, as well as staff at the House of Commons Library. I again pay tribute to the vital role played by trade unions in the workplace when it comes to matters of health and safety and improving working practices. Millions of people across the UK suffer with musculoskeletal problems, which profoundly impact not only their health and wellbeing, but their ability to acquire and stay in work. We need concerted Government action to improve prevention and support.

Given the scale of the problem, a comprehensive cross-departmental MSK strategy is desperately needed. There is a wealth of expertise in the public sector and the organisations that I have cited. I urge the Government to consult them and, crucially, the people with lived experience of MSK conditions. I reiterate that the Government need to address the issues with the administration of Access to Work. They need to oversee an increase in the numbers of people with MSK conditions getting support through Access to Work, significantly increase funding for the Health and Safety Executive and come forward with funding for fracture liaison clinics, as called for by the “Better Bones” campaign, to help the over-50s who suffer fractures due to osteoporosis.

I hope that the Minister will take on board everything that has been said. She said that she will write to respond to some of the questions, which I very much appreciate. We need to see vastly improved MSK health and improvements in how people are able to participate in the workplace.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered musculoskeletal conditions and employment.

10:43

Sitting suspended.

Tidal Range Energy Generation

Wednesday 10th January 2024 Westminster Hall

11:00

[Dame Caroline Dinenage (in the Chair)]

I am going to call Mick Whitley to move the motion, and then I will call the Minister to respond. There will not be an opportunity for the Member in charge to wind up, because that is the convention for 30-minute debates. There will be no other speeches, but I am sure Mick will take interventions if Members ask him nicely.

[Mick Whitley (Birkenhead) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered tidal range energy generation.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dame Caroline.

The UK, more than any other country in the world, is uniquely positioned to harness the power of its tides. Ten per cent of the world’s tidal resources, and half of Europe’s, are found in Britain. Already well-developed plans for tidal range projects across the west coast promise to mobilise and deliver 10 GW of net zero energy, with the potential for 10 GW of additional capacity—enough to meet approximately 12% of the UK’s electricity needs over the coming decades, when, as a result of our efforts to decarbonise transport, heating and industry, demand for electricity is set to more than double.

While I want to approach this debate constructively, the Government’s ambition in supporting the development of new tidal range projects has been sorely lacking. Tidal range technology was excluded entirely from the Energy Act 2023, and the one reference made to tidal power in the 2022 energy security strategy—a commitment to “aggressively explore” the possibilities of tidal power—has not been delivered on. Although we see encouraging steps in the right direction, including moving towards the inclusion of tidal in the national policy statements on energy and the publication of guidance on tidal range on 18 December last year, much more still needs to be done.

In his correspondence with me dated 26 October, the Minister for Energy Security and Net Zero, the right hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Graham Stuart), stated that

“the government remains open to considering well-developed proposals for harnessing tidal range energy”,

but that

“any such proposal would need to demonstrate strong evidence of value for money in the context of other low carbon technologies.”

The issue of value for money has long been cited as the main obstacle to unlocking the potential of the UK’s vast tidal resources. Indeed, when the then Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy declined in 2018 to provide the proposed tidal lagoon project on Swansea bay with the price stabilisation mechanism that was needed to guarantee investor certainty, it was on the grounds that the levelised cost of energy was higher than that of low-carbon alternatives, including new nuclear.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I support the hon. Gentleman in bringing forward this issue, which is really important for my constituency of Strangford. He has given the example of Swansea. Strangford lough has obvious potential for a tidal stream, which is why there was a trial there in 2008 with SeaGen. I was a Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly at the time. It was a successful pilot scheme but did not seem to go any further. As energy prices have risen, the possibility of a new scheme is even more likely. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the devolved Administrations have a role to play in developing tidal stream and tidal range, which the Government should utilise so that we can all play our part in tidal energy?

[Mick Whitley]

Yes, I do. There are more examples of tidal energy to come. If the Government take cognisance of the points being made in today’s debate, hopefully some progress can be made.

The former Secretary of State’s decision was met with incredulity by many figures in the industry, coming as it did only 18 months after Charles Hendry’s independent review found that tidal lagoons could

“play a cost effective role in the UK’s energy mix”

and constituted

“an important and exciting new industry for the United Kingdom.”

In retrospect, and particularly in the light of the conclusions of the study undertaken at the University of Birmingham in 2022, which found that the Swansea tidal lagoon would have returned profits to the low-carbon contract company, the Government’s decision not to provide support for the Swansea bay project seems to have been seriously misjudged. It has deprived us of a credible pathfinder project of the kind advocated by Charles Hendry’s review.

However, I have not called this debate simply to revisit debates from a long time before either the Minister or I had entered Parliament. Today is not about looking backwards; it is about facing the future, and asking what we can do to guarantee our energy security in a time of growing geopolitical uncertainty and climate breakdown, and the role tidal range generation has to play in that process. In that vein, I ask the Minister and his colleagues to recognise that the fundamental question of value for money needs revisiting.

Principally, that means adopting a whole-systems approach when assessing cost-effectiveness. The levelised cost of energy can be a useful tool, but it can also be a blunt instrument when it comes to gauging the comparative costs of renewable and low-carbon energy sources that fails to take into consideration the additional costs of solar and wind generation caused by grid transmission constraints, rebalancing and storage.

It also fails to account for the fact that, uniquely for a renewable, tidal energy is a timetabled predictable resource, giving it an important role to play when seasonal factors interrupt supply from solar and wind. In my previous engagements on this issue, I have made the case that when a whole-systems analysis is made, the costs of tidal power are comparable to offshore wind and new nuclear.

I am sure the Minister will take great interest in the research currently being carried out by Jacobs for the British Hydropower Association, soon to be published, which confirms that analysis.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mick Whitley]

I will give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Margaret Greenwood) first and then my right hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell).

[Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate, his important work on this matter and his tireless work for the people of Birkenhead. I am sure he will agree that we have an obligation to future generations, and that we urgently need to put in place the infrastructure to power a fossil fuel-free future. Delay is unacceptable and we urgently need to see Government action.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

I know that my hon. Friend does not want to look backwards, but I do. My first meeting on the barrage across the Mersey was in 2015. If Government had implemented it then, it would be operational now. The trajectory was always going to be that alternative fuel sources would be cheaper than reliance on rising oil prices. It is obvious that that will also be the future trajectory. That is why there is a sense of urgency about this now.

[Mick Whitley]

I thank my two colleagues for their interventions; I totally agree with their contributions. I hope that after today we will see more movements in tidal power. I do not want the Minister to believe that I am under any illusions about the up-front costs of tidal range generation. They are undoubtedly significant, but these are ultra-long lifecycle assets, which will continue to provide clean, green power for more than a century.

As a case in point, 2024 marks the 58th anniversary of the world’s first tidal power station becoming operation on the Rance river in Brittany. Today, it is less than half way through its estimated lifespan of 120 years, and continues to supply green and affordable energy. As the Chair of the Environmental Audit Committee said in 2021, when he urged the Business Secretary to seize the potential of our tides:

“Once these costs are paid off, the energy generated from range projects would be very low in cost and would be delivered over a longer time horizon than (for instance) energy generated from wind installations, which require repeated renewal.”

[Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way and for his excellent speech. He is right to say that, although the up-front costs of developing tidal schemes can be expensive, the lifetime costs per year are absolutely not. We are in an election year and there is a tendency for us to think short term; we are rebuked for the fact that we need to look long term. If we build the tidal scheme we want to see across Morecambe bay and Duddon estuary, that will mean 7.8 TW of energy, 7,300 construction jobs and 7,400 long-term jobs. That is great for the economy and great for the environment. All we need is a Government that can act for the long term.

[Mick Whitley]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. He makes a great point. As I have said, right down the west coast there is a need for tidal power, which I hope we can generate. I know it is an election year, but this matter is cross-party and not about being adversarial.

Last year, the Government passed legislation to ensure financial support for new nuclear power aimed at achieving what Ministers have described as a nuclear renaissance. As with tidal range projects, the capital costs of nuclear power plants are considerable, but the Government have nevertheless recognised them as necessary to securing a vital domestic supply of low-carbon energy. We will of course need to consider the optimum financing arrangements for new tidal range projects. In fact, establishing a sustainable financial mechanism was one of the key objectives of the amendments that I tabled to the Energy Bill in September last year, which would have established the tidal range assessment grant to fund an independent, evidence-led study into tidal range generation. Although the contract for difference scheme may be adapted to support the development of smaller tidal range projects, it is clearly not suitable for supporting the development of larger gigawatt-scale projects.

As I said when I last raised tidal range generation in the House, the Government need to be working with the industry to look seriously at the merits of employing a regulated asset-based model for funding tidal range, just as they did last year with new nuclear. There is considerable enthusiasm in industry to develop our tidal range capacities, but investor confidence remains low, largely because of a widespread—and I am afraid, for the time being, legitimate—concern that developers will not have the Government support.

Ministers have said that they want to continue a dialogue with the hydropower industry but if we are going to rescue the 10 GW of tidal range capacity currently stranded in development, the developers need assurances that they will have a proactive partner in Government. The British Hydropower Association has established just some steps that the Government could take to build investor confidence and create a favourable policy context for tidal range. Those include establishing a Government-industry partnership similar to the one established for offshore wind in 2012, which has had such success, the inclusion of tidal range as an explicit technology within the UK energy strategy and national policy statements, and building on the work that was undertaken through the tidal lagoon challenge. We also need Ministers to develop a road map for tidal range, which the EAC recommended in 2021. It called on the Government to set out a stated ambition for the sector in gigawatts of generating capacity, alongside an industry strategy for the sector that would ensure that the supply chain was onshore in the UK in order to support British businesses.

I have spoken so far about tidal range generation only in general terms, but now want to consider the specific proposals put forward by Metro Mayor Steve Rotheram and his colleagues in the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority for the Mersey tidal power project. I understand that the Minister of State for Energy Security and Net Zero, the right hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness met the team behind the Mersey tidal power project as recently as last autumn, so I hope that the substance of the proposals are familiar to the Minister representing the Government in this debate.

The project represents an unparalleled opportunity for our region. It has the potential to provide a predictable domestic green energy supply to a million homes on Merseyside and to create thousands of new jobs, including in my constituency of Birkenhead, while supporting hundreds of UK companies across the supply chain. If delivered successfully, the Mersey tidal power project would undoubtedly be transformative for our region, but its impact would also be felt nationwide, helping to bring us closer to achieving our legally binding targets to reach net zero carbon emissions by 2050.

The Mersey is a relatively short estuary with shallow waters, and this geography makes the area the ideal location for a commercial pilot project of the kind that industry figures believe is essential to accelerating progress in this sector. By assigning the Mersey tidal power project pilot status, the Government could begin to resolve issues around regulation, planning restrictions and environmental impact before turning their attention to larger gigawatt-scale schemes such the Morecambe tidal barrage, of which I know the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) is an enthusiastic champion.

Here again, though, we need to see the Government working as an active collaborator with the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority as well as industry. The Metro Mayor has, in particular, been keen to stress the importance of central Government making available the kind of funding and support that was provided to hydrogen and carbon capture and storage technologies, and of central and local governments developing a common approach towards the Crown Estate and Duchy of Lancaster so that the necessary seabed leases can be secured without prohibitively high entry costs.

When confronted by the war in Ukraine, the crisis in the middle east and the existential threat of climate breakdown, the question of how we secure our energy independence has never been so important. It is time for us to reckon seriously with how we can exploit our natural geography to secure a clean, green, and domestic energy supply for generations to come. It is time for us to harness the power of our tides.

11:15

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Andrew Bowie)]

It is an absolute pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning, Dame Caroline. It is also a pleasure to be here to discuss such an important topic, so I congratulate the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mick Whitley) on securing today’s important debate. He has a considerable track record of championing this particular sector—and indeed his constituency, of course—so I welcome his calling this debate.

As was mentioned, the invasion of Ukraine and the subsequent rise in global energy prices demonstrated the importance of securing domestic home-grown energy sources. As we saw at COP28 in the UAE, for the first time, there is a global consensus on the need to move away from fossil fuels. Therefore, I, and indeed the Government, share with the right hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) and the hon. Member for Wirral West (Margaret Greenwood) the sense of the urgency that is required here and of the necessity to move quickly.

We are very proud that the UK is already a global leader in the field of climate change, and we must continue to find and develop more ways to extract naturally occurring energy through renewables. We have already cut emissions further and faster than any other major economy since 1990, we were the first country in the G7 to halve our emissions, and we have boosted our share of renewables from just 7% in 2010 to almost 50% today. That keeps us on track for our legally binding net zero 2050 target and for a fully decarbonised power sector by 2035.

To deliver these targets and provide long-term energy security, we must consider all of the tools available to us, and tidal range—the reason we are here today—provides yet another domestic energy source to our growing list of renewables. It also shows promise as a large-scale, fully predictable and non-weather-dependent source of power. Tidal range, as everybody in this room knows, could yield energy-system benefits by balancing the grid against variable renewable sources such as wind and solar. Additionally, with sites of suitability being close to centres of high demand, such as Liverpool, tidal range could circumvent the need for extensive grid connections.

The UK has the second-highest tidal range in the entire world, and that is why, in the British energy security strategy, we committed to aggressively explore its potential, building on the research already conducted, such as in the place referred to by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) earlier. Therefore, officials in the Department are doing just that—aggressively exploring the options for tidal range in the future—by working with the sector to model the potential energy-system benefits of tidal range and establish an evidence base to build upon.

Officials in the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero will continue to engage closely with the sector throughout this process and will communicate their findings, when appropriate, to the sector and indeed to Members of this House. We have already consulted with the sector and published a dedicated page for tidal range on gov.uk, and, just yesterday, I had a meeting on how we might improve even that offer through the Government portal. As a nation surrounded by water, we will continue to work with the sector, and with Members interested, to explore and take advantage of the opportunities presented by tidal range to provide clean and secure renewable energy.

I thank the hon. Member for Birkenhead for bringing this important, pertinent and timely debate to this Chamber today, and I look forward to working with him and others, and the sector, as we seek to improve and build upon the success of tidal range moving forward.

Question put and agreed to.

11:19

Sitting suspended.

Afghanistan: UK Government Policy

Wednesday 10th January 2024 Westminster Hall

[Dr Rupa Huq in the Chair]

[Relevant documents: First Report of the Foreign Affairs Committee of Session 2022–23, Missing in action: UK leadership and the withdrawal from Afghanistan, HC 169 incorporating HC 685; Oral evidence taken before the Foreign Affairs Committee on 17 October 2023, on follow-up to the Afghanistan inquiry, HC 1888; and Correspondence with the Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs, relating to the follow-up session to the Afghanistan inquiry, reported to the House on 19 December 2023.]

14:30

[Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered Government policy on Afghanistan.

It is a real pleasure to be opening this debate on the important subject of Afghanistan. I am grateful to see the Minister, whom I know is familiar with the country, having visited there many times, as well as the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Catherine West). I have much to cover, so to ensure that others have time to contribute, I make it clear that I will not take any interventions, because doing so would delay my speech.

After dominating our headlines for decades, Afghanistan is now the forgotten country and rarely features in our news or, indeed, parliamentary debates, and a population of 40 million people, not least women and girls, understandably feel abandoned. As I found out on my visit last summer, Afghanistan remains a very raw subject.

I spent some time at the British cemetery in Kabul, which was established in the 19th century to honour some of the dead from the previous British incursions into Afghanistan—the battle between the Oxus and Indus rivers, and the “great game” between Russia and Britain. In that cemetery, there are a dozen or so plaques marking the names, in date order, of the 455 UK personnel—including 54 from my regiment, the Rifles—who lost their lives in the latest war. Our thoughts and prayers are with their families and the hundreds who returned with life-changing injuries. Whatever the operational outcome, we must never neglect our duty of care to our brave veterans.

The war in Afghanistan was bruising for NATO—the most formidable military alliance the world has ever seen—as an entity. At its peak, it had 150,000 troops in the country. They departed demoralised, with many asking the question: what is the purpose of NATO? In August 2021, when Parliament was recalled so that the Government could announce our withdrawal, I said that this signalled the high-tide mark of post-world war two western liberalism. Two decades of state building in Afghanistan cost the United Kingdom £20 billion. It cost the US, which lost over 2,400 lives, $2.3 trillion. As our adversaries, who do not share our values, have observed, we have collectively lost the appetite to stay the course and defend the international rules-based order. The war brought an abrupt end to the post-cold war thinking that the west can impose its values anywhere in the world.

There has been no official UK inquiry about the lessons that might be learned, such as how we squandered the incredible umbrella of security created by our brave service personnel through the absence of a co-ordinated strategy to rebuild, and through total mission creep and strategic contagion. A western boilerplate governance structure completely ignored the complex tribal power bases and, indeed, the lessons of Afghanistan’s history, not least Britain’s previous efforts to run the country in the past. Corruption became endemic in Kabul. Lord Peter Ricketts, the former national security adviser, summed it up in his book, “Hard Choices”, where he says:

“We became the problem, not the solution.”

In July 2019, President Trump gave a nine-month deadline to remove all US forces, simply to boost his presidential election prospects. He then struck a unilateral deal with the Taliban that excluded the Kabul Government, with no built-in human rights guarantees for women and children. However, it did see the release of 5,000 prisoners, including many terrorists. Afghanistan’s fate was sealed, resulting in the nation being handed back to the very insurgents we went into the country to defeat.

Just months after NATO’s article 5-approved invasion of Afghanistan, which followed the 9/11 al-Qaeda attacks, an international conference took place in Bonn, in Germany, in December 2001, to consider the future security and governance of Afghanistan. The Taliban requested attendance, but Donald Rumsfeld, the US Defence Secretary at the time, told them to go away, saying that the losers do not get to sit at the table. Of course the Taliban did go away, across the border with Pakistan to rearm, regroup and return to fight another day.

I have visited Afghanistan about a dozen times since 2005. I sat in the same swivel chair in the large conference briefing room in Camp Bastion, I have been shown PowerPoint slides on how the Taliban were being defeated, and General Petraeus famously said of Iraq that it is not enough to defeat the enemy; we must enable the local. However, I am afraid that I saw very little evidence of that on any of my visits. I saw very little of enabling programmes or indeed of a strategy to develop workable local governance, and win over hearts and minds.

When President Karzai had to approve a new school headteacher in Lashkargah, and when an enormous turbine delivered by 16 Air Assault Brigade in 2008 to the Kajaki dam to generate game-changing electricity for communities remains in its bubble-wrap for a decade beside the dam, we know that something has seriously gone wrong in our post-conflict reconstruction planning and indeed in the efforts to win over hearts and minds.

The irony is that Helmand is the breadbasket of Afghanistan and beyond thanks to two decades of US investment just after world war two, when the same company that built the Hoover dam created the massive irrigation systems around the mighty Helmand river, which to this day continue to help to grow the crops that feed the nation. That is how to win hearts and minds. However, for 20 years there was no Paddy Ashdown character to co-ordinate efforts.

If we step into the shoes of the Afghan people today, we find that they are war-weary. They have endured four decades of conflict and instability. We have to go back to President Daoud’s time in the 1970s to find a time when it could be said that the country was relatively stable. Today, there is an eery calm, as another phase in Afghanistan’s history plays out.

As I found out, security is different now, but that is thanks to the Taliban’s daily attacks having ceased. Satellite images confirm that Afghanistan’s opium trade is significantly down, but that is because the Taliban’s black market to fund their insurgency has gone, and farmers are able to grow other crops, rather than opium, and take them to market without fear of running into the Taliban’s improvised explosive devices.

Whether from the people of Afghanistan or indeed from the Afghan diaspora here in the UK—the Pashtuns, the Hazaras, the Uzbeks and the Tajiks, many of whom I have engaged with—there is no clarion call for regime change. That prompts a very difficult question: if the Afghan people are not calling for regime change, should we continue to punish them because the Taliban are in charge?

There are no easy options here, but the challenges that this fragile country now faces remain immense, and the Taliban know it. First, there is the economy. It was mostly US funding that propped up three quarters of Ashraf Ghani’s budget, in order to keep the country going. That funding has now gone. Varying estimates suggest that Afghanistan now has about two years before its economy collapses. In 2019, the UN estimated that around 6 million Afghans were considered to be in need of humanitarian aid. Today, that figure is estimated to have risen to 28 million. Meanwhile, China is eyeing up Afghanistan’s rich mineral resources and could easily turn the country into a vassal state.

Secondly, there is the demise of human rights. The brave demonstrations on the streets of Kabul by women who sought to retain their basic freedoms to work and study are dispersed by gunshots. Only a few days ago, that happened again in Kabul. It is just one example of how the Taliban are rowing back on the initial assurances given to women and girls when they gained power. The latest example is denying schooling to 11-year-olds, preventing 11-year-old girls from going to school, and preventing women from working in certain trades. Such diktats offer understandable, absolutist grounds to rule out having any truck with the Taliban until these conditions are removed.

Finally, there is the renewed threat of terrorism. As Afghanistan becomes ever more unstable, terrorism is once again allowed to incubate—most worryingly in the form of ISIS-K, which is increasingly active in the country. Senator Lindsey Graham warned in 2019:

“If we abandon Afghanistan out of frustration and weariness, we pave the way for another 9/11.”

Alex Younger, the former head of MI6, recently warned of the uptick in radicalisation that we are now seeing and that could impact the UK, saying that it is “unparalleled”.

This all leads to the difficult question: if our current strategy of condemning from afar is having no effect and if Afghanistan is on a worrying trajectory where international aid could be so pivotal, is it time to better understand what is happening in the country and within the regime that is leading to the increase in restrictions? I say that because the Taliban, as I discovered, are far from one cohesive identity. There are clearly tensions within the regime that was once united with the principal goal of violence against the Kabul Government and NATO. No doubt it remains an ultra-conservative movement with the most ruthless interpretation of sharia law in the world, but there are differences of view between Kandahar, where the reclusive leader Akhundzada is based, and Kabul, where the practical realities of holding the country together are grappled with.

The hard-line political messaging is abrupt and, rightly, internationally condemned. An example involves women denied university and school education. “How does any woman have access to a female doctor?” I asked, and how can women continue to work in Ministries, at the airport and with non-governmental organisations, including the United Nations, as I witnessed? The response was that licences are quietly issued, allowing those women to continue to work in such necessary professions.

Saad Mohseni, an Afghan media entrepreneur, set up TV and radio companies across Afghanistan a few years ago, when NATO was there. They all continue to operate today and now broadcast a range of educational programmes for children. Many urban areas now have access to the internet, and Zoom lessons are commonplace for all manner of subjects and all ages.

Let us be clear: this is so sub-optimal. It is, though, tolerated by the Taliban who are running the Ministries in Kabul, quietly maintaining some of the gains that have been secured over the last 20 years. But ironically the Taliban leaders in Kabul, understanding the rules on schooling, send their girls to school in Dubai. Clearly, the duality between Kandahar and Kabul is unsustainable in the longer term. One side or the other will eventually need to give. Are we really going to watch from afar this latest phase in Afghanistan’s history play out, or is there a more cognitive, proactive approach of engagement and influence?

In his excellent book “The Return of the Taliban”, Hassan Abbas, a professor at the National Defence University in Washington, suggests that about 40% of the Taliban are signed up to the full religious ideology. But for the majority of people in Afghanistan, it is either the military and fighting lure that encourages them to support it, or simply a social one—a bond extended through family and tribal loyalty. Many of the rank and file receive little religious training. They do not understand the sharia law obligations; they simply join the Taliban because that is what happens in Afghanistan. When a force looks like it is going to win, everybody then sees the changing winds and joins sides with it.

The older generation, many of whom held leadership roles back in the late 1990s and were content to be globally isolated, now lean upon the younger, Kabul-based, more tech-savvy generation to run the state Ministries. Those Ministries have changed little in function since 2021, but they know that their stability comes only with greater international engagement. That is why Kabul is growing ties with Doha, the Emirates, Turkey, Russia, China and so forth. Afghanistan certainly has changed from what it was in the ’90s. It is a more populous, more complex country, with complex needs and a desperate request for international support.

I dared to suggest this summer, and I repeat it today, that given the dangers that are looming, we re-evaluate our strategy. We should answer the plea of Roza Otunbayeva, the UN head in Afghanistan, and engage. She stressed in her formal report to the United Nations General Assembly in September last year that engagement does not mean endorsement, nor any form of recognition. The Taliban in Kabul recognise that there is $9 billion of frozen assets. That could easily be used to provide conditionalities in improving rights for women and girls if we used it more cognitively.

Other respected voices are also coming to the same position. Thomas West, the US special envoy in Afghanistan, says that we should engage. By the way, the United States has given $2 billion since 2021 compared with our £100 million a year. Richard Bennett, the UN special rapporteur for Afghanistan; Ms Fawzia Koofi, the former Deputy Speaker of the Afghan Parliament; the UK’s former ambassador, Laurie Bristow; General David Petraeus; Rory Stewart; General Sir David Richards; General Sir Nick Carter; and distinguished journalists Christina Lamb and Kathy Gannon all have extensive experience and understanding of Afghanistan. They are all saying, “Let’s engage.”

[Mark Logan (Bolton North East) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

[Mr Ellwood]

I will not, if my hon. Friend does not mind, because I want to finish, but I look forward to his contribution.

As I mentioned, most tellingly, it is the Afghan people who desperately need our help and want us to engage. Let me end by speaking about the value of education. My brother was a teacher and educationalist. It was his death—he was killed in the 2002 Bali bombing by an al-Qaeda affiliate—that prompted me to visit Afghanistan so many times, to understand what we were doing to counter terrorism. My brother spoke passionately about the importance of teaching people how to think, and the dangers of simply being told what to think.

The UN head Roza Otunbayeva has raised just $0.5 billion of the $4.5 billion that she needs to honour the humanitarian programmes on the ground. Education restrictions on 11-year-old girls are a concern of course, but her bigger worry is that half of all children under the age of 11—boys and girls—are getting no education whatsoever. The schools and buildings did not exist, and do not exist, to teach them. That means that unless the international community helps soon, half of the next generation of Afghans will be open prey for radicalisation —the next generation of extremists—as they are lured into a false belief that their violence will be rewarded with a fast track to paradise.

It is Charlie Wilson all over again, abandoning a country that turns into an incubator for terrorism. We should not make that same mistake again. As the saying goes, we may have lost interest in Afghanistan, but Afghanistan has not lost interest in us. We now have a duty to develop a strategy of engagement that moves from our current position of punishing the Afghan population for the Taliban’s takeover. Our approach to Afghanistan at the moment is not just incoherent but ineffectual. Our financial support is down to just £100 million, as I said. An economic, humanitarian or terrorism crisis is looming. Afghanistan’s threat is not just to the country itself but to the region and beyond. Let’s make sure Afghanistan and its people are not forgotten. It is time to engage. It is time to reopen our embassy.

My experience this summer was bruising. It made me reflect on this place, on Parliament, and more specifically on the conduct of Parliament. On a good day, we match that accolade of being the mother of all Parliaments. We have pioneered that important democratic journey across the centuries that is now emulated across the globe. Yet on a bad day, we are an exemplar of how shallow, discourteous and intolerant we can be of each other. Politics has always been a contact sport—I understand that—but by and large it remains civil, respectful and professional. Parliamentarians should be encouraged to show political curiosity and passion for an issue, cause or interest, and yes, advance or even challenge current thinking and dare to look four or five chess moves ahead and ask, “What if?” However, if we lose the art of disagreeing or offer latitude when a colleague miscommunicates a serious message, as I did this summer, and it is replaced by a “Gotcha!” culture deliberately encouraging a media storm, that is indeed a sad day for Parliament.

Political curiosity is what this place should be about. It should be encouraged and respected, otherwise MPs simply will not stick their heads above the parapet. That cannot be good for democracy and will certainly not inspire the best in our nation—the next generation—to consider following in our footsteps. We need to keep the bar high. Thank you, Dr Huq. Once again, I am grateful to have the opportunity to debate this important issue today. I will listen with interest to colleagues and to the Government’s response.

[Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)]

Order. Please stand if you want to speak, and we will then work out how long everyone has.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)]

I start by calling Wendy Chamberlain.

14:51

[Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to be here this afternoon, Dr Huq. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) on securing the debate. Like him, I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say as it has been some time since we have had an update on his Department’s policies on Afghanistan. I am aware that the newly appointed Foreign Secretary responded to some questions in the other place at the start of December, but considering the dire situation we know the Afghan people continue to face, I hope the Minister can provide something more concrete in his responses this afternoon. I am sure that he will.

As one of the co-chairs of the all-party parliamentary group on Afghan women and girls, I often link in with networks of Afghan women both here and living in their country, including in preparation for today’s debate. Shortly before today’s debate, I spoke to one who will be listening in to hear what the Minister has to say. In fact, I know that they will all be listening with interest, anxious to hear about an action plan. The reality is that women in Afghanistan are living in what can best be described as gender apartheid. Over the past two and a half years, there have been discussions and meetings at different international levels and with different partners, but nothing has improved. Indeed, I would argue that it has got worse.

As the right hon. Member for Bournemouth East said, it is a privilege to be a Member of this place and to serve our constituents. I know that it is a rare and special opportunity to have this occupation. However, I do not often stop in awe at my mere ability to have a job, that I went to university or that my daughter recently completed her secondary education; that I have been able to travel from my home in Fife down to London this week unaccompanied by my husband or father; that when I served in the police, we were not arresting people for having the wrong type of clothing or belief or even for visiting public places; and that when we brought people into custody they did not routinely experience torture and sexual abuse. Sadly, that is life for so many women in Afghanistan, with the obvious exception that there are no women in the police either.

Girls are banned from education after primary school. That is fundamentally wrong and I know that the Government—in fact, all of us here—agree with that. Yet the question is, what are we going to do about it? How will we put pressure on the Taliban to get girls back into classrooms? Again, the right hon. Member for Bournemouth East pointed out that we know the hypocrisy of senior Taliban members, who send their own daughters to be educated overseas. With the growth of segregated madrassahs, how will we ensure that all students, but especially girls, get access to sufficient secular education?

The continued restrictions on women working are not just a serious abuse of their human rights but a financial disaster, particularly for female-headed households, in the context of an economic and humanitarian catastrophe. There are continued reports of women being arrested and imprisoned without charge, from both formal channels such as the recent UN Secretary-General’s report and the networks I hear from through the APPG. One explanation the Taliban have given for that is that mass arrests are clearing beggars from the streets. Even if that is true, we know that groups of women are being forced to beg because of the dire financial situation they find themselves in, having been excluded from the labour market.

There has been a total crackdown on protests and dissent, and it is clear that a number of arrests are purely politically motivated. It is notable that the Taliban’s own statistics show the prison population in Afghanistan to be well on its way to doubling in size since they took power. Sadly, that is again somewhat inevitable given that it is illegal to shop, work, beg, go to the park, speak an opinion or engage in any way in civil society. I was told in the run-up to this debate that last week women were arrested simply for wearing the wrong type of hijab.

I do not want the Minister just to say that this is obviously wrong—and I am absolutely sure he will not—because we all know it is. I want him to use his time to set out how the Government plan to put pressure on the Taliban. The right hon. Member for Bournemouth East said we should be engaging but, at the very least, what minimum standards should we ask to have met before engagement takes place in the backest of back rooms? I do not see anything that suggests that there is a desire to change. I hope the Minister will confirm that there will be a continued, and hopefully elevated, aid package to the region, but how can aid be used to incentivise those basic standards?

I opposed the merger of the Department for International Development and the Foreign Office, and indeed secured an urgent question on the issue back in 2020, but its stated purpose when it took place was that the UK’s presence on the international stage would be more effective when both foreign and international development policy worked together. I hope the Minister can demonstrate that they are and prove the initial doubts wrong.

For some Afghans, however, it is not possible to stay in their home country, such is the risk of persecution. Some two and a half years since the fall of Kabul, people are still hiding in fear of their lives in an unsafe third country, waiting to be told they can travel to safety. I welcome the restarting of flights from Pakistan in the light of the threat of expulsions from that country, but it feels like the threat of expulsions was what got things moving again.

Why is it that, after all this time, applications still do not seem to be being progressed? Barely a week goes by without MPs receiving emails begging us to take up the cases of people who feel abandoned by the British Government. They are not our constituents, and without a scheme like Homes for Ukraine, which provides a local link, there is simply very little that we can do. Most recently, I received one yesterday, as I am sure many other Members did, from a young person who said they acted as an interpreter to the British Army. Why are they still waiting, and what are the Government doing to speed things up?

My concern, and that of many, is that the Afghan relocations and assistance policy has purposefully or inadvertently minimised the number of people able to seek safety by limiting automatic eligibility to those who were directly contracted by the British Government or armed forces. The use of local contacts or contracts is not uncommon, and just because the Government might want to say, “Well, they didn’t directly work for us, so we deem them not to be at risk,” that does not mean that the Taliban will not see such an individual as somebody who assisted us and seek reprisals. I am also told—I hope the Minister takes this away and passes it on to his colleagues—that the process to apply for assistance under ARAP’s case-by-case consideration is complicated and opaque, and narrow in who it covers. A review of its effectiveness and, at the very least, how it is communicated, would be very welcome.

I want briefly to touch on two more resettlement issues before concluding. First, will the Minister provide an update on when the second phase of the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme pathway 3 will open? Without a meaningful timeframe, the scheme has in practice stopped. If that is the case, the Government should be honest about that to the House.

The second issue is the campaign of the Linda Norgrove Foundation to bring over a group of female medical students to finish their studies in Scotland. I have spoken to the foundation, and I am sure other Members have too. Securing visas that will allow those students to enter the country but crucially, given their financial circumstances, pay home student fees is the final hurdle to getting those women over to Scotland. That is not just the right thing to do to send a signal about how serious we are about girls’ right to education; it is also deeply practical. The UN’s most recent report warned of a medical brain drain out of Afghanistan. If we think long-term, we only win by helping to equip future generations of doctors, particularly female doctors.

Finally, I turn back to the APPG on Afghan women and girls. It was set up a little over a year ago to help lift the voices of women being silenced at home and too often left out of the conversations about them elsewhere. Government policy about Afghan women has to include Afghan women, and it must include a range of Afghan women from all regions and tribes. I have had the privilege of meeting some of those women, and I am grateful to them for giving up their time to me. What can the Minister say about committing to an inclusive political process in which the Government use the expertise available to them here and their influence at an international level to make sure Afghan women are included in high-level negotiations? That must go beyond round tables where they have input; it must be more collaborative than that.

We are here to consider the Government’s policy on Afghanistan, but I want them to think instead about their policy in relation to the people of Afghanistan—to women, children, the LGBTQ community and the Afghans who worked for British or NATO forces or in the former Government. Too often, Foreign Affairs is abstract—the time and energy involved is a zero-sum game with new crises taking away official focus, as the people of Afghanistan know too well—but the gender apartheid, the gross human rights abuses and the humanitarian and economic disaster faced by the Afghan people are not abstract. I urge the Government to put that at the centre of their response.

15:01

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

I shall put forward a few random and hopefully connected thoughts that have occurred to me in the course of the contributions we have heard so far. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) on securing the debate, and I commiserate with him on the fact that he paid a high political price in losing the chairmanship of the Defence Committee, which I know he valued greatly, as a result of speaking out on this subject.

I can go part of the way with my right hon. Friend in support of his thesis about engagement, by saying this: no matter how much we detest a particular regime, a time always comes when, if in reality it has established full control over a country, it gets international recognition. That was true for the Bolsheviks, for example: Britain intervened in the Russian civil war in an attempt to prevent the Bolsheviks from establishing communist control in what became the USSR, but we failed, and, after a few years, that regime had eventually to be recognised. Where I find it hard to go further with my right hon Friend is in the belief that we can somehow manipulate the system to make significant improvements or avert significant threats from an Afghanistan run by the militant Taliban, even if he detects—rightly, I am sure—significant factions within the Taliban spectrum, such as it is.

As too many past speeches will attest, I came to the conclusion over a decade ago that the whole concept of the west trying to engage in nation building from the ground up in countries such as Afghanistan was largely futile, because—and I quote my right hon. Friend, who referred to this country’s democratic journey across the centuries—it often takes centuries for democracy to evolve in a society.

We have no reason per se to feel superiority over countries that we regard as undemocratic today, because we had so much longer than they have had so far to evolve the institutions, values and tolerances in which we have reason to be proud. The fact is that, if we were to go back 400 or 500 years into the history of our own country, we would find religious fanaticism that is not all that dissimilar to what pertains in countries that are subject to what has today been termed radical political Islam. If we then frame the proposition that some completely different society, seeking to impose their more modern values on the England of 500 years ago, could have managed to inculcate those values into a society with a belief that God Almighty was telling them to do one thing and to disregard all alternatives as infidel structures that must be destroyed, we can see that it is pretty unrealistic to think that societies could be transformed with that degree of rapidity.

I have therefore felt, and argued for over a decade, that what we needed with a country such as Afghanistan was not an approach whereby we would be able rapidly to bring it into the modern world, but that we should be able to contain the threats that it posed to us—for a very long period, if necessary—until, by its own evolution, it came to develop the sorts of values that would result in those threats ceasing to exist. That option has now been taken away from us by President Biden’s catastrophic decision to abandon everything and effectively betray all the people in Afghanistan who had put their trust in the NATO countries that had tried, over-ambitiously, to develop Afghan society.

What I feel very strongly, which came out so well in the remarks that the hon. Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain) made about Afghan women, is that we may have pursued an unrealistic and utopian policy towards Afghanistan, but, in doing that, we created obligations to those Afghans who sought to travel along the route with us. We must not abandon them.

When I hear about the idea of our having a strategy towards the country, I think of our options as extremely limited. The strategy that we ought to have had is one of containment, whereby we would make it perfectly clear that we had intervened militarily once and would not get sucked in, but that, if there were to be any sign of further terrorist activity aimed at us or our allies, we would not hesitate to intervene militarily again. In that case, we would again make it clear that we would not get sucked in, but would continually keep the threat of counter-action available while avoiding seeking to transform the society in a way that was wholly impractical.

[Richard Foord (Tiverton and Honiton) (LD)]

I am very grateful to the right hon. Member for giving way. He is talking about a situation in which a terrorist threat may emerge in the future. At the height of the UK’s presence in Afghanistan, the Prime Minister of the UK talked about Afghanistan and Pakistan in the same breath and had an AfPak strategy. That was because there was a fear of Islamist intent coming together with the weapons of mass destruction capability in Pakistan. Does the right hon. Member think that those threats have completely dissipated, or would he still regard the federally administered tribal areas and the North West Frontier Province as a threat?

[Sir Julian Lewis]

I absolutely am concerned about the attitude of Pakistan and about the potential for Pakistani nuclear weapons to one day pass under the control of more radical elements than are currently running that country. What should particularly worry us—this is what I think David Cameron had in mind when, as Prime Minister, he talked about Pakistan facing both ways on the question of radical Islam—is the fact that there has been a wish in Pakistan Government circles to see the triumph of the Taliban. The reasons for that are probably more related to Pakistan’s relations with countries such as India, and have too little regard to the other effects that bringing in a regime such as the Taliban’s might have on the stability and security of the international system and the rules-based international order—about which we hear so much although we often wonder whether it exists.

I share the continuing concern of the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Richard Foord). I am far from satisfied that we are in a secure situation. On the contrary, I feel that the withdrawal and abandonment of Afghanistan have given a huge boost to those who say that the western system of society is degenerate and enfeebled, and will surely fail in the face of a radical Islamic alternative.

What do we do about this now? What I think we can do can be summed up in the following way. We will, indeed, have to recognise that the Taliban are in control. Therefore, just as we have a sort of relationship, however adversarial, with obnoxious and hostile regimes in other countries, so we will have to do that with the Taliban. We must not fool ourselves that having a relationship with them will result in any real reduction in the threat that they and their of way life poses, particularly when they have adherents within our own societies. We saw for many years how much damage people who owed a form of allegiance to the Soviet Union could cause, through their fifth columnists in democratic societies. There is an equivalent danger from radical political Islam, too.

Let us by all means face reality, but let us reassert that we know that this combination of politics, regime and religious extremist ideology is a total threat to us. We will do everything in our power to protect ourselves. Any aid and support that we give to the Afghan Government, as we will eventually have to call it, must be contingent on something in return at every stage. That will probably be in relation to the saving of groups, whether they be women’s groups or former military personnel to whom we owe obligations. That is the saving of people whose lives were changed by our intervention, and who have a right to look to us to help to protect them against the ghastliness of the regime that has sadly re-emerged and taken control of their country.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)]

Order. If we keep within seven minutes, there will be enough time for the three Front Benchers and for Tobias Ellwood to conclude.

15:13

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I was just going to ask you about that, Dr Huq, but you have beaten me to it, so thank you. The hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) and I will share the time between us.

I say a special thank you to the right hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood). He is a gallant colleague and friend of many of us. Along with others here, I always honour him sincerely and honestly for his service in uniform. It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Sir Julian Lewis). His concluding comments sum up exactly how I feel.

We have to call the Taliban what it is: an evil organisation. The hon. Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain) outlined the case for women and children and what is happening to them in Afghanistan because of the Taliban. If we are to have any influence in Afghanistan, our economic aid—or grant aid, or whatever it might be—has to be conditional on things happening. If I were to take one thing from this debate, it would be that, so I thank the right hon. Member for New Forest East for saying that.

I believe I am well known as a supporter of our armed forces and the war effort in Afghanistan. I have been a strong advocate for those we left behind. I want to make a plea for one person. The Minister will perhaps have an idea of what I am referencing when I mention those left behind who worked with our soldiers and our Government and who have not been able to access a visa to come over here—namely, one of my constituents who served in Afghanistan, who worked alongside a gentleman who we have not been able to get out of Pakistan. We are still awaiting the appeal. This man’s only crime was being a contractor and working with the British Army and administration. He and his family have been under threat since the withdrawal took place. Any strategy or discussion about Afghanistan must recognise and rectify the failings of our previous dealings with them.

There is a reason why I say that in my introduction, because I also want to make a comment as chair of the all-party parliamentary group for international freedom of religion or belief, as Members know well. To return to the point that the right hon. Member for New Forest East referred to, if we are to help, it should be conditional on human rights, so that people can worship their God in whatever way they wish. I am a Christian, but I speak up for others—hon. Members know that. From a human rights perspective, it is clear that things are not as we would like to see them. Any discussion of Afghanistan and the role played by our Government and our nation must have the good of the ordinary people of that country at heart.

Open Doors is an organisation that I support. I appreciate the information that it shares. It tells the story of what it is like to be a Christian woman in Afghanistan. It is difficult to read. The hon. Member for North East Fife referred to how difficult it is for women. For a Christian woman it is even more difficult because of what they believe. I want to quote this lady—her name has been changed because that is the best thing to do. Open Doors states:

“Even prior to the Taliban’s seizure of power in August 2021, living as Christian carried enormous risk, particularly for converts. But the militant group’s takeover has made conditions even more dangerous for our Afghan family, forcing them to flee the country or go deeper underground. One person who knows all too well the dangers of following Jesus in Afghanistan is Gulshan.”

Her name has been changed to Gulshan.

“Relatives of hers have been killed for their faith, whilst her Christian neighbours have disappeared.”

She has no idea where they are. She does not even know if they are still alive.

“She hopes and prays they are safe somewhere.”

I hope so as well.

“‘It is our great desire to join with our brothers and sisters and worship God together, but now this is not possible,’ says Gulshan. ‘We can only meet our pastor in the dead of night, so no one can identify him or us.’ She and her family also face the threat of starvation, due to food shortages in the country.”

I think that is the issue that the right hon. Member for Bournemouth East was trying to hit on. But we have to make the aid that we give conditional, so that we can try to change things by subtle means.

Open Doors goes on:

“Despite everything she is risking, Gulshan knows that she is following a faithful God. ‘Our faith is in Christ, and will remain so until our last breath. Dear God, help us to find a straight and smooth path in our lives.’”

I and others in this Chamber are great believers in prayer, and we know that those prayers can make a difference. We understand that. Also, God gives us as MPs in this House a physical role to play, and part of that physical role is what we do to energise change. That is where I am coming from.

I am mindful of your direction, Dr Huq, so I will conclude by returning to the gentleman I mentioned in my introduction, Mohammad—I will only give his first name because I do not want to disadvantage him or his security in any way. Mohammad has been abandoned by us—that is the best way to describe it—after helping British forces for years. Our policy must be with women such as Golshan, a Christian woman. It must be with the woman that the hon. Member for North East Fife referred to. It must be with the young girls who are not receiving any education, healthcare or opportunities. They should not be brought up until they are nine or 10 and then abandoned. Our policy must be for the young girls who are not receiving an education. It must be for the young men who have been trained to fight before being trained in a trade, or even to read and write.

Our policy must focus on how we can work with the envoys from all our allied countries to bring about change. We all agree that we need change; it is how we achieve that change. The right hon. Member for New Forest East captured my thoughts very well. If it is true that the new Taliban regime is different, then this will be easily tested. The facts are there. I believe there is no evidential base at the moment; we just need to look at the treatment of women and girls, and at how the nation is being rebuilt and not torn down. If that is happening—we do not see any evidence of that, by the way—then I would urge Government to do what is internationally acceptable to help them achieve this. Just think of all those today who we will never meet in this world, but who need us to be their voice in this place.

15:20

[Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP)]

I am glad that the right hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) has secured this afternoon’s debate, because it has given us all the opportunity to raise our concerns about the ongoing situation in Afghanistan. He mentioned his comments of last year. I do not doubt that he has reflected carefully upon that, but I want him to know that many of my constituents and Afghan friends in Glasgow were deeply hurt by the comments he made. They felt that it was very hurtful and upsetting, particularly from somebody in a position of power, such as he held at that time. They felt that very deeply indeed, and wished me to pass that on, now that I have the opportunity.

[Richard Foord]

I wonder whether the hon. Lady agrees with what the right hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) said about the importance of political curiosity, and sometimes saying things that might not be the convention.

[Alison Thewliss]

I do, and I understand where that comes from. I also understand that we can say or do things that we later come to reflect and change our mind on and regret. In politics, we should be allowed to say we have made a mistake or changed our mind. There should be space for that, but I had comments at the time from my constituents about this, and they felt it very deeply indeed. It is important that the views of my constituents and friends are reflected in this place.

I also want to use this opportunity to talk about the paucity of response from the Home Office. I appreciate that the Minister here is not a Home Office Minister, but I still have constituents coming to me every single week who are experiencing severe delays and difficulties with family reunion visas, for example because their family member has moved out of Afghanistan and is in Pakistan or Iran or somewhere else and is waiting for the paperwork to be completed. They are extremely disturbed and upset when they come to see me because of the inexcusable delays these people face in coming to safety and being reunited with, often, the only family they have left. The ARAP and the Afghan citizens resettlement schemes are failing to do what the Government had asked them to do. That is very much reflected in the many Afghans coming over in small boats, because they see no other alternative to get to the UK. The schemes that they were promised would help to get them to safety have failed repeatedly to do so.

A constituent of mine, Mr d’Angelo, has repeatedly raised the case of somebody he worked with in Afghanistan who has been trying to get over on the schemes now for the best part of two years. I wrote to the Veterans Minister, the right hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Johnny Mercer), a month ago, and I have yet to receive even an acknowledgement of that letter. This is somebody who is fearful for their own survival in Afghanistan. I urge the Minister to put more pressure on ARAP and on ACRS to ensure that people who need that safety can get here.

I remind Members that the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees says that the UK has taken only 0.2% of the total of Afghan refugees. More than 6 million fled Afghanistan, but only 0.2% have actually made it here to the UK, so there is certainly a lot more that we could and should be doing. Those left behind include those who worked for the British Council as teachers, those who worked in the armed forces for the Triples, and those who provided various services to British forces in Afghanistan. I spoke to scores of constituents at the fall of Afghanistan—people whose family members had done something as simple as supply goods and services to the British armed forces. The Taliban saw no distinction between somebody who served in an active frontline role and somebody who supplied plates. All those people were tarnished by their association with the British forces. There is an awful lot more that could and should be done to ensure that those people who put their faith and trust in us see it returned.

Like the hon. Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain), I will briefly mention the 20 female Afghan medical students whom the Linda Norgrove Foundation wishes to bring to safety in Scotland. There is no excuse for them still to be waiting. The foundation was told that these women would be entitled to resettlement under ACRS in January last year. It has been waiting a full year. It was told that the women would be brought to the UK in August, but they are still waiting now, so I ask the Minister to get personally involved in this case. The women should be allowed to come to Scotland to complete their important studies and become the medical professionals they wish to be, because it is not something that will ever be possible for them in Afghanistan in the short or even medium term. They will be welcome, and we have the places. All they need is permission from the Government to come and start their studies, so I urge the Minister to make some progress on that.

Finally, will the Minister provide us with an update on the prospects for people who are stuck in Pakistan and whom the Pakistani Government wish to remove and send back to Afghanistan? Many of the folk who have been in touch with me are waiting for the British Government to process the paperwork. I have had cases where the visa centre in Islamabad had processed all but one of a family’s applications and the family did not want to leave that one member behind. I do not know whether that was deliberate or due to incompetence, or what it was that went wrong with the paperwork, but I am aware of so many cases where people are stuck waiting in Pakistan for the Government to have the processed paperwork, so that they can come to safety. It serves nobody well that they are still waiting, two years after the fall of Afghanistan.

[Jim Shannon]

Given the situation with the Post Office/Horizon scandal, we all recognise that if there is a willingness, there is a way of making it happen. I endorse what the hon. Lady has said, and I referred earlier to the example of my constituent. He is living in Pakistan with his wife and four children. I met him in Pakistan in February last year, when I was there on an APPG visit, and I understand his worries and the threat he is under. I know what my constituent has done for our United Kingdom and the British Army, and the hon. Lady is so right. Honest to goodness, if we can address the Post Office/Horizon scandal, we can bring Afghans to safety in this country.

[Alison Thewliss]

We absolutely can. The Homes for Ukraine scheme shows what can be done in a pinch when there is an emergency, but nothing has been done to the same extent for the people of Afghanistan.

For many people, there is not a simple route to come to safety in the UK. I have people who find that the very strict criteria for family reunion do not allow them to come. They have been told that they are not eligible for ARAP and ACRS, and their family members in Glasgow live in constant fear about what will happen to them. They do not know. Will the Minister explore with the Home Office routes for people who have family links and support networks? They do not need to rely on public services, because they are well provided for by their families. How can they be brought to safety, so that we can fulfil our duty to families who have relatives in Scotland?

15:18

[Brendan O’Hara (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Dr Huq. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) on securing the debate and on the thoughtful and considered way that he opened it, posing many challenging questions for us all. I thank the hon. Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain), the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Sir Julian Lewis), the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) for their contributions.

Until the return of the Taliban in 2021, the core objective of UK policy on Afghanistan was to promote stability by building a viable Afghan state in which everyone, regardless of gender, religion or ethnicity, could build a life. As the right hon. Member for Bournemouth East said, the policy was to win the hearts and minds of the Afghan people. However, despite tens of billions of pounds in international aid being poured in—much of it from the UK—Afghanistan is in a state of near collapse following the withdrawal of international financial support, the imposition of sanctions and the freezing of state assets.

The right hon. Member for New Forest East was absolutely right to say that the obscenely rapid withdrawal in 2021 betrayed so many people who had put their trust in us. That has left Afghanistan on the precipice of a dire humanitarian crisis, with high infant and maternal mortality, vulnerability to climate change, food insecurity, widespread corruption and drug production all remaining significant problems. Indeed, 90% of Afghanistan’s population is living in extreme poverty, so it is absolutely essential that the United Kingdom recognises its historical responsibility to the people of Afghanistan, and that we try to get as much aid as possible into the country, and to those who need it most.

I listened carefully to the right hon. Gentleman’s argument that engagement does not mean endorsement, but remain unconvinced that a return to normalcy is desirable at this stage, given the conflict in the regime in Afghanistan between Kabul and the power brokers in Kandahar, and I wonder just how much aid, support, recognition or legitimacy we would give to that regime. The question is: how can we provide aid and support without legitimising and assisting financially a brutal, theocratic regime that oppresses women, religious and ethnic minorities, and indeed anyone who veers from their very narrow and blinkered view of the world?

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central and the hon. Member for Strangford for saying that we also have to protect and assist as much as we can those Afghans who fled to neighbouring countries, particularly Pakistan, in 2021, and now face the terrifying prospect of being deported back, and to facing a very dangerous and uncertain future. Of course, as I think every Member has said, we have a moral responsibility to those brave Afghans who, prior to 2021, were trained by and worked with British forces—including interpreters, who, as the hon. Member for Strangford said, now live in fear of Taliban reprisals.

Along with every other right-minded person, we in the SNP are unequivocal that the Taliban’s treatment of women and girls is absolutely unforgivable. As other Members, including the hon. Member for North East Fife, have said, since the return of the Taliban to power in Afghanistan, so much of the progress made in the previous 20 years has been eroded, and the pledges that were made, particularly around education, have been reversed or abandoned.

Two years on from seizing power, the Taliban have banned women from going to parks, gyms and public bathing houses; they have stopped women pursuing education beyond the sixth grade; and women are all but prohibited from working, other than in health and education. The Taliban even issued a decree banning women from working in national and international non-governmental organisations, and then they extended that ban to cover women working for the UN’s agencies, which is already having an impact on the delivery of aid. It makes it harder to assess the needs of women and girls, and increases safeguarding risks. We fully and absolutely support the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office in its condemnation of that ban and in its assessment that the decision puts at risk millions of Afghans who depend on humanitarian assistance for their survival.

Indeed, the treatment of women and girls in Afghanistan has been rightly described as gender apartheid by the UN. Last year, in a joint report to the Human Rights Council, the situation in Afghanistan for women and girls was described as being the worst in the world. The report said:

“While the backlash against women’s and girls’ rights has unfolded in different countries and regions in recent years, nowhere else in the world has there been an attack as widespread, systematic and all-encompassing on the rights of women and girls as in Afghanistan.”

We must never lose sight of that fact.

I commend the work of Baroness Helena Kennedy of the International Bar Association’s human rights institute. At the start of this week, on 8 January, with the support of women from both Houses of Parliament, it launched a gender apartheid inquiry, which will look at the situation of women and girls in Afghanistan and Iran. It will consider how those regimes’ discriminatory and misogynistic policies, and their harsh enforcement methods, constitute the most appalling gender persecution.

It is not just gender-based persecution that is the hallmark of the Taliban; the persecution of ethnic and religious minorities, particularly Hazaras, has also defined the Taliban’s time in power. Once again, I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Strangford for his unstinting work in supporting freedom of religion or belief around the world.

In late 2020, I was proud to be part of the cross-party group of MPs and peers who worked on a report that highlighted the atrocities suffered by the Hazara community in Afghanistan and Pakistan. In the first half of 2022 alone, those atrocities led to hundreds of members of that community being killed, and even more injured, as a result of targeted attacks, including the bombing of Hazara schools, places of worship and other centres. In September 2022, a suicide attack claimed the lives of 50 girls and young women belonging to the Hazara community. Sadly, attacks on Hazaras continue unabated, and although the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office is in possession of the report that we published, it is yet to respond. I am grateful to Lord Alton for reminding the Department of that just last week.

We have to face facts: over decades, a string of badly formed policy decisions made with short-sighted and politically questionable objectives has proven very costly, both financially, and, tragically, in terms of lives lost. The UK Government are in a position to put some of that right, and to make amends to those who have suffered most from their policies. As the right hon. Member for New Forest East, the hon. Member for Strangford, and my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central said, the UK Government cannot and must not abandon Afghans fleeing this crisis, nor leave them to the mercy of the Taliban. There must be a commitment to helping all those Afghan nationals who risked their lives to assist the United Kingdom. Getting those people and their families resettled in the UK must be a priority and a matter of urgency for this Government.

We have to show determination to support in any way we can women and girls who face the violent, discriminatory policies of the Taliban. We must pledge to assist those protecting refugees in Pakistan, and we must show the beleaguered Hazara community, and other minority groups in Afghanistan, that they have not been forgotten or abandoned.

This has been an incredibly useful debate, and it has been very challenging. I do not agree with the conclusions of the right hon. Member for Bournemouth East, but I welcome the opportunity to listen to him, and to have put into context what was condensed into a 45-second news clip way back in the summer. It has been a useful exercise for us all. I thank him for securing the debate, and every hon. Member who has taken part in it.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)]

Order. I think there will be a vote any second, so we will suspend for 15 minutes.

15:37

Sitting suspended for a Division in the House.

15:49

On resuming—

[Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab)]

It is always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Huq. I thank the right hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) for securing the debate, and for the tone and words he used. The minimum requirement for Members of Parliament is to care, and that was very much summed up in his words. We all enjoyed the story about his brother and the impact of his legacy, after he lost him tragically in the Bali bombings. The legacy of a teacher is always crucial, particularly in foreign policy, so I thank him very much for that.

Since the fall of Kabul to the Taliban in that heartbreaking summer of 2021, the House has not often debated a more general Government position on Afghanistan, so this debate is timely, necessary and very welcome. We all remember the optics as Kabul fell: a sunburnt right hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Dominic Raab) lying on a sunbed in Corfu, and an absent senior member of Foreign Office staff. I do not think any of us will forget that sense of a dereliction of duty. It is certainly not something that could be levelled at the right hon. Member for Bournemouth East who brought forward this debate but, sadly, that is how I remember that period of time. The most critical Foreign Affairs Committee report I have ever read examined the way in which the Foreign Office failed to support the basic functions of a Government at that crucial time. I would suggest it as recommended reading to anybody interested in this area.

As Labour’s shadow Asia Minister, I pay tribute to the 457 British servicemen and women who made the ultimate sacrifice during our engagement in Afghanistan, and the countless others who remain mentally or physically scarred by their service. Labour is, and always will be, in eternal debt to and have admiration for our armed forces and the work they do in the most challenging circumstances. War has untold consequences, and the war in Afghanistan—a 20-year, multinational engagement —is among the conflicts with the most profound effect on our armed forces, veterans and society that Britain has known for decades.

Many people still say that the effort failed when the Taliban retook Kabul that summer, and that has been reflected in today’s debate. However, although that simple statement is true in many respects, I believe it does a disservice to the work of our armed forces, civil servants, development personnel, allies and, indeed, Afghans themselves, who so clearly came together to transform Afghanistan during the 20 years of NATO involvement. The Afghanistan that the Taliban took control of in 2021 was a world away from the Afghanistan before the western forces first liberated it from their control. Two generations of children had access to education, the country developed its business and an emerging economy—although many of us accept that not enough was done on the economy to ensure a lasting legacy—and women enjoyed many of the same rights and opportunities as their male friends and family members.

Despite the change in Government, much of that legacy is still alive. Afghans are more educated, more connected and more attuned to the world around them than the Taliban allowed them to be in the 1990s, and some Taliban wish them to be now. We should hold on to and celebrate that legacy, but we must also take stock of the Afghanistan of 2024, which is not the Afghanistan of 2021. Women’s rights have been essentially eliminated, the economy is in a dire situation, malnutrition and famine are the reality for millions, and all notions of a Taliban 2.0 have been proven false as human and civil rights are not even considered by the power brokers in Kandahar. We cannot simply pretend that this is the way it should be.

No British, western or neighbouring country should forgive the Taliban’s treatment of the Afghan people, and particularly, as the hon. Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain) said, women and girls. If we do that, the collective legacy we left behind—that more hopeful Afghanistan that many worked hard to create and that I firmly believe exists there, certainly if the emails I receive from Afghan people are to be believed—and that spirit and resilience will continue, but we must come up with a strategy now to deal with that country of 40 million people that has been all but shut off from the world, barring occasional references to the humanitarian crisis unfolding. The question is emotive and controversial for obvious and deeply held reasons, but we owe it to Afghans to have this conversation.

In June 2022, the shadow Foreign Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), became the first senior British politician to visit Afghanistan since the return of the Taliban. He demanded that the UK set out a comprehensive strategy for re-engaging with Afghanistan to help support the people who have been left behind. Despite his demands, very little appears to have changed, so will the Minister outline what conditions he believes are the basic minimum for us to re-engage? Do they include the freedom of religion or belief, which has been mentioned, and basics around human rights safeguarding and the treatment of women? What basics should be upheld in advance of a genuine restart of the UK mission there? Will the Minister please outline that long-term thinking?

I urge the Minister to use this opportunity to outline what further humanitarian response the UK will provide to the people of Afghanistan. As has been said, £100 million is a very small amount compared with what was spent previously, and is much less than what is desperately needed. I also urge the Minister to outline what the Government are doing to support at-risk Afghans who face deportation from Pakistan to Afghanistan. Will he say a bit about the cross-departmental work that the FCDO, the Ministry of Defence and the Home Office—an interesting threesome—are doing for the applicants we have heard about today via their MPs, including the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss), and for my constituents who are stuck on the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan? It was only when Pakistan decided to start deporting people to Afghanistan that the international community restarted the process of applications. I understand that the British Council is aware of 100 outstanding applicants. Will the Minister tell us what is happening about that on the domestic front?

Many thousands of former members of the armed forces, civil servants and civil society activists that the UK supported remain in danger, and we have been woefully slow in supporting them. I firmly believe that no one in this House supports a full recognition of the Taliban, but there is space for a pragmatic, measured and reasonable middle ground to ensure we are there for the people of Afghanistan. Cutting them off for evermore is not what thousands of British, allied and Afghan forces fought and died for.

I will conclude with a couple of points that came out of the debate. First, I mentioned the domestic element, so will the Minister say a bit about the threat of radicalisation? Does he feel that it is still as serious as it was, particularly given the lack of stability in Pakistan? Secondly, what budgetary implications might his strategy have? As I said, the £100 million does not seem to be as much as may be required. If he were to do this, what would he have to cut to put in place more funding? Does he agree that the BBC World Service is really well placed to provide educational programmes such as BBC Bitesize, which was so effective during the pandemic and which, with our language experts at the BBC World Service, could put in place some wonderful programmes for women stuck at home who are not able even to go out and do a basic bureaucratic task without having to be accompanied by their brother or husband? What is his assessment of the current picture of corruption? Would more money simply be at risk from corruption?

Finally, I thank the right hon. Member for Bournemouth East for securing this debate, for caring, and for giving us a lesson on the dangers of group-think.

16:01

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Mr Andrew Mitchell)]

It is a tremendous pleasure to serve under your benign sway today, Dr Huq, for the first time, I think. I am extremely grateful to my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) for securing this debate and demonstrating to the House the extent of his knowledge and understanding of Afghanistan.

Afghanistan remains a priority for the Government and is of enduring importance to UK interests in the region and far beyond. We want to see a sustainable peace and stability in Afghanistan, and we remain committed to a leading role in the humanitarian response. I will seek to address all the points made in what has been an extraordinarily good debate with many knowledgeable and experienced contributions. My noble Friend the Minister for South Asia would have been delighted to take part in this debate, but as he resides in the other place, it is my pleasure to respond on behalf of the Government.

As I said, my right hon. and gallant Friend spoke with experience and knowledge. He made it very clear that the Taliban is not a monolithic movement, and I will come back to that point. He spoke with great eloquence about the sacrifice made by those who served, including members of his regiment, and we remember their suffering and that of the families and loved ones of those who took part and paid the ultimate price in the service of our country—a point that the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Catherine West) and others picked up and that we will all want to echo. He spoke with wisdom about the work of Lord Ricketts, with whom I served on the National Security Council when I was Secretary of State for International Development something of a decade ago when these matters were very much more acute and sharp than they are today. He spoke about the engagement and means of progress of the Government and the Foreign Office, and I will reflect very much on what he said about that.

My right hon. Friend drew a firm difference between the rulers of Afghanistan and the people of Afghanistan, as did the hon. Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain), and spoke about the importance of education as a significant bulwark against terrorism. He also spoke about the ups and downs of political life. He, I and others in this debate have known both, and I thought he spoke with great wisdom on that point.

The hon. Member for North East Fife spoke about the gender apartheid. She is entirely right to make that point. She spoke about the merger and said she hoped that development and foreign policy were marching in step in Afghanistan. She will have seen the words of the Foreign Secretary, Lord Cameron, yesterday to the Foreign Affairs Committee and noted his and my determination to achieve that effective result.

My right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Sir Julian Lewis), who chairs the Intelligence and Security Committee, spoke with his usual wisdom and asked me about the resettlement schemes, as did the hon. Member for North East Fife. I want to make something clear about the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme, to which I think my right hon. Friend referred; he asked me whether this was effectively closed. He will understand that it is a Home Office scheme, but I am advised that although stage 1 is closed and in the first year the Government considered for resettlement only eligible at-risk British Council contractors, GardaWorld contractors and Chevening alumni, stage 2 will be broader but is not yet open. My right hon. Friend also mentioned the many difficulties for ordinary Afghans as a result of the nature of Taliban rule.

My hon. Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) advised us of the experiences from within his constituency of those serving in Afghanistan and made, as he often does, an eloquent and highly effective plea on behalf of Christians, who are suffering so much in the way that he described. I will specifically refer his comments to my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce), who, as he will know, is the Prime Minister’s envoy on these matters.

The hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) spoke about the importance of those who are seeking to study in Scotland, and I will refer what she has said to the Home Office. On the subject of Pakistan and deportations, which she and others raised—

[Wendy Chamberlain]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Mitchell]

Will the hon. Lady just hang on a moment? Since September 2023, we have committed £18.5 million to the International Organisation for Migration in Afghanistan to support vulnerable undocumented people returning from Pakistan and Iran. We are monitoring the situation in Afghanistan, including the humanitarian and human rights implications, and we note the Taliban’s creation of a refugee commission to aid the resettlement of people returning. The Pakistan Government have given verbal assurances that Afghans under UK settlement schemes will remain safe while they await relocation to the UK. Letters have been distributed to every eligible family, I am advised, to ensure that the authorities are aware that those individuals are under our protection. Eligible families are advised to take sensible precautions and made aware of how to respond if approached by the police.

The hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Brendan O’Hara) set out the appalling basis on which women are being treated and the effect of the ban on their own humanitarian situation as well as the wider situation, and paid a tribute to the work of Baroness Helena Kennedy, to which I would like to add the work that is carried out by Lady Fiona Hodgson.

If I may, I will come to the points made by the Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green, before I return to the substantive points I want to make. I thank her for her words about our servicemen and women. She raised with me the particular issue of malnutrition. I draw her attention to the work of the global food security summit, which took place at the end of November and where I announced an additional £10 million to this year’s spending in that respect. The humanitarian spend next year will rise by nearly 50% to £151 million. Of course, in addition to our bilateral spend, we work through the agencies that are engaged with Afghanistan. She also spoke about the BBC World Service, and I completely agree with her about its effectiveness. The Foreign Office and the Government remain very strong supporters of the BBC World Service, for the reason she set out.

If I may return to the—

[Wendy Chamberlain]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Mitchell]

I will give way, but may I make some progress first, in case I run out of time? I want just to say a word or two about the current situation. No one should be in any doubt that since the Taliban seized control of Afghanistan in August 2021, the country has faced a catastrophic humanitarian crisis. Despite continuing international efforts, of which Britain is a part, 36% of the population are expected to experience crisis or emergency levels of food insecurity this winter. Since 2021, the Taliban’s increasingly repressive policies have had a devastating impact on women and girls. They can no longer support their families through work or fulfil their potential through study. They are no longer free even to walk to the park. Limitations on women’s rights to education, work and freedom of expression have taken a terrible toll on the hopes and dreams of millions of Afghans. As was set out eloquently during this debate, women’s suicide rates have surged. Alison Davidian, the country representative for UN Women, characterised Afghanistan as being

“in the midst of a mental health crisis precipitated by a women’s rights crisis”.

Rights have been rolled back elsewhere, too: minority groups such as the Hazara people face discrimination and attacks.

The position of the United Kingdom is that the UN security resolutions have consistently set out the basic expectations of the Taliban. These include preserving the rights of women and minorities and ensuring that Afghanistan will no longer be used as a base for terrorist activities. Our senior officials speak regularly to the Taliban, including to secure the release of four British national detainees last October. Officials also visit Kabul when the situation permits, including a visit last month from the British chargé d’affaires to Kabul, where he met a wide range of senior Taliban figures. Regardless of the complexities of the relationship, the UK Government have helped to lead the way in securing the Afghan people. In respect of the right hon. Gentleman’s plea about the embassy, we will note what he has said and keep that very much under review.

On the subject of aid, since 2021 we have disbursed more than £600 million in aid for Afghanistan, and we remain one of the most generous donors to the humanitarian response. Our aim is that at least 50% of people reached by UK aid will be women and girls, and we have supported 125,000 Afghan children, two thirds of whom are girls, to access education in the last year. On the subject of human rights, the Taliban’s repressive actions have been rightly condemned by the international community. The UK Government closely monitor the human rights situation in Afghanistan, and we work with international partners to press the Taliban to respect the rights of all Afghans in the face of attacks and discrimination. Afghan women and minority groups continue to demonstrate incredible perseverance, fortitude and courage. My noble friend Lord Ahmad regularly meets Afghan activists and provides a platform for women to speak out, advocate for their full inclusion in society and promote their rights to access essential services.

We are now at an important moment internationally. The UN special co-ordinator presented his independent assessment of Afghanistan to the Security Council in November. Following this, the Security Council adopted resolution 2721 on 29 December, taking positive note of the report recommendations and requesting the Secretary-General to appoint a new UN special envoy for Afghanistan.

I recognise that my right hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East visited Afghanistan last year and made a strong plea for re-engaging with the Taliban. Our intention since August 2021, as I mentioned, has been to re-establish a diplomatic presence in Kabul when the security and political situation allows. We do not believe that is the case at the moment, but officials continue to visit and will keep this under close review. We are clear that we must have a pragmatic dialogue with the Taliban. However, that does not amount to recognition. We are some way off moving to recognise the Taliban, and we need to keep the pressure on them to change their approach. That does not stop us from having an impact on the ground and directly helping the people of Afghanistan in a pragmatic way.

In conclusion, I would once again like to thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East very much for securing this debate. I look forward to engaging further on this issue with Members across the House. Afghanistan remains a pressing priority concern for this Government and we will continue to play a leading role in catalysing international aid efforts.

[Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)]

I call Tobias Ellwood to conclude. Hard stop when the clock says 4.15 pm.

17:18

[Mr Ellwood]

As in, in 20 seconds?

[Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)]

Yes. Go for it.

[Mr Ellwood]

Twenty seconds from now?

[Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)]

Yes.

[Mr Ellwood]

Thank you, but this is an injustice. I cannot do justice to such an important subject—my time is up already. I am saddened. This is an important subject. Perhaps I can now raise a point of order, Dr Huq?

[Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)]

Okay.

[Mr Ellwood]

On a point of order, Dr Huq. Please, some latitude. The next debate is here. I am sure they will not mind another minute—

[Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)]

Order. The Clerk is saying that I am compelled to stop you. Sorry about that.

Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)).

Dementia Services in Ukraine

Wednesday 10th January 2024 Westminster Hall

16:15

[Sir Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the potential merits of UK support for dementia services in Ukraine.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Dr Huq, and it is a great pleasure to see the Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell), in his place. We have had many positive dealings over many years in this place.

I appreciate that the subject I am raising might be considered somewhat hybrid. When we think of Ukraine we think of military support in the war against Putin’s illegal invasion, and how proud we should all be of the UK support for that just war. When we think of dementia services, we cannot help being aware of how much farther and faster we need to travel in our own country to better help those affected by dementia, and their families, to see more research conducted into causes and likely cures, and to raise awareness and turbo-charge early diagnosis.

I hope that by the end of my remarks the Minister will agree that, on the contrary, the project being put before him is timely, is of great relevance to the people of Ukraine right now, and resonates squarely with the values and principles of the United Kingdom, in the amazing work we do all over the world, through our international development. The Minister will know that I have written twice to his Department about this proposal, but I believe it is worthy of further detailed consideration by his Department and by the House.

The objectives for the project that I am unpacking for the House today are to implement training and support programmes for health and social care professionals throughout Ukraine, to better support and assist people living with dementia, their families and communities. Why am I raising this issue? I am raising this on behalf of a skilled and dedicated team of people rooted in my local community, who feel strongly that they would like to share their expertise with people in Ukraine. That compassion and concern has led them to put together a coherent plan of action for the next three years.

That impressive team includes, but is not limited to, Ian Sherriff, the Academic Partnership Lead for Dementia at the University of Plymouth. Ian was part of the core team set up by Lord Cameron, when he was Prime Minister, to take forward the work of combating dementia in the United Kingdom under the coalition Government.

The team also includes Professor Sube Banerjee, Professor of Dementia at the University of Plymouth; Professor Rupert Jones, Professor of Health Research at Plymouth Marjon University; David Fitzgerald, a broadcaster and media consultant in Plymouth; Dr Rupert Noad, consultant neuropsychologist at Derriford Hospital, Plymouth; Katrin Seeher, department of mental health and substance use at the World Health Organisation; and Dr Tarun Dua, also from the department of mental health and substance use at the WHO.

I could also mention others around the world who are linked into this team, who see the need for a project such as this in Ukraine right now. Needless to say, I am delighted to support this project, as is a person we can describe only as a national treasure, namely Angela Rippon, who is a proud Plymouth person and fully behind this project. That is the team behind the project. I am sure the Minister can see that there is an abundance of relevant expertise running through it.

It is critical not to impose any perceived help from the outside, but to partner with appropriate people in Ukraine. The Minister will be pleased to know that there has been extensive consultation with health officials and Ministers in Ukraine, who are very keen for this project to take place. In particular, the UK team is guided at every stage by Nezabutni, a charitable foundation dedicated to supporting people with dementia and their relatives in Ukraine. Its director, Irina Shevchenko, has recently sent me a statement summarising the situation on the ground, and I quote:

“Since February 24 2022 a wholescale Russian military invasion started in Ukraine. During the first month of war more than 4 thousand houses were destroyed, 6.5 million Ukrainians left their homes. A lot of villages in Ukraine are on the edge of a humanitarian catastrophe without water, heat and electricity. The general state of people with dementia has worsened considerably. This has been caused by the constant noise of the airstrikes and necessity to hide in bomb shelters or other safe places, which is extremely difficult or impossible for people with dementia. The biggest challenges they are facing include: the evacuation of people with dementia from the most dangerous territories and finding a new place for them to live; the lack of medication and medical supplies; the difficulty for people living with dementia and their relatives to flee from their country; the lack of awareness surrounding dementia is a big problem—people don’t feel comfortable disclosing their condition to people around them, which can often make things worse; since the war started 90% of pharmacies have closed and it is essential that people with dementia continue to have access to their medication.”

I end the quote there, and that gives the Minister a feel for the situation on the ground for dementia sufferers and their families.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I commend the hon. Member for South West Devon (Sir Gary Streeter) for obtaining this debate. I understand that one in 70 people across the world have dementia and Alzheimer’s. Alzheimer’s Disease International has stated:

“People with a so-called ‘hidden’ disability like dementia can be left behind in receiving humanitarian assistance and protection if those responding do not ‘see’ their condition.”

Does the hon. Gentleman agree it is imperative that relief workers on the ground are trained in recognising those suffering with the effects of dementia to make their transition to safety as simple as possible?

[Sir Gary Streeter]

The hon. Member makes a very strong point in support of my case that the Government could perhaps support the project we are talking about today and make a real difference to people on ground. I am conscious of time, but once I have finished my formal speech I will read some current testimonies from families of dementia sufferers in Ukraine, to further underline the reasons to bring forward this proposal.

Dementia care in Ukraine before the war lacked strategy, trained professionals, infrastructure and support for people with dementia and their carers. Russian attacks have attacked fundamental services, including power, water, hospitals and so on, so the situation for many people with dementia in Ukraine is now dire. Many older people have refused to leave their homes; meanwhile many women have left with their families, leaving a lack of carers. Specific data on the number of people living with dementia, their location and their needs is lacking. The urgent need now is to build systems and structures to support people living with dementia and their families in both urban and rural Ukraine.

There is no available capacity for dementia sufferers within the Ukrainian healthcare system and there also exists no national programme to advise or support the families and carers of those affected. Nezabutni engaged in a consultation with the Ukrainian Government on this issue in 2021. Although the need has been recognised, perhaps understandably, there has been no progress on the proposal from either the Ministry of Health or the Ministry of Social Policy in Ukraine since that consultation.

It is likely that hundreds of thousands of dementia sufferers in Ukraine are impacted by the insecurity and the bombing to a greater extent than their non-afflicted peers. They are unable to access formal medical support through Government medical services. The proposal that the team would like to put in place is a programme to be delivered in three phases. Phase 1 is to carry out groundwork in-country, which will take approximately four months. Phase 2 is to set up and pilot the work programme and is roughly one year in length. Phase 3 is the main programme delivery, which will take two years.

The project will engage with key stakeholders in Ukraine identified by the team, including clinical, academic, charity and Government expertise in health, social care and support. There will also be engagement with international partners, including the WHO, Alzheimer’s Europe, Alzheimer’s Australia and Alzheimer’s USA.

During phase 1, it is envisaged that a UK team of dementia specialists will visit Ukraine, hopefully during 2024, to meet the stakeholders; to review the existing systems and structures; to ensure that its training and support programmes are embedded in Ukrainian practice and culture; to review existing data on diagnosing dementia and care and support; to carry out rapid needs assessment on key training and support priorities; to agree the organisational structure for the programmes to come; and then to report the agreed plans for the subsequent phases.

Phase 2 envisages the setting up and piloting of work programmes. It involves establishing a national training and support co-ordination team, hosted by Nezabutni, to manage the training and support programme, to undertake the in-country needs assessment and priority setting and to agree and document key deliverables. It would also establish a dementia training and support unit, which would agree the delivery systems for the programme, including digital systems, plan a programme of training and awareness courses, and plan and pilot the roll-out in urban and rural settings.

However, the project would then move on to the all-important delivery phase, which would see dementia training and support rolled out across the country, using both digital and traditional efforts—in particular, training doctors, nurses, health workers, social services and care workers in updated dementia awareness and knowledge. It would involve the development of a range of courses for people living with dementia and their carers, alongside raising general awareness and support. Finally, there would be a period of monitoring and evaluating the training outcomes and the time, cost and quality of the training. I know the Minister is keen that anything supported by the Government should be properly evaluated, and that is very much part of our thinking.

What would this excellent work cost? The answer is very little for the likely benefits returned. It is estimated that phase 1 would cost around £150,000, which would include the work undertaken by the Ukrainian charity and its staff and the cost of the visit by three members of the UK team, who are likely to be Ian Sheriff, Professor Rupert Jones and a project manager, to carry out all the stakeholder engagement described previously. For phase 2, the estimated cost is £250,000. For phase 3, the cost would be determined during phase 2.

My simple request to the Minister today is for his Department to be willing to fund the cost of phase 1 to enable this project to get off the ground, whereupon funding applications to others will be made. Of course, we would be delighted if the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office would like to engage more fully with the project throughout its length. The cost would be small change compared with the sums we are spending on munitions for Ukraine, and the project would make a massive difference to many lives. It needs the sort of funding that might come from a departmental underspend, or possibly from an under-utilised budget for the mission in Kyiv or elsewhere. The Minister is looking askance at me, but he and I know that these things sometimes get discovered.

I hope the Minister will confirm that his Department is willing to discuss our proposal with members of the UK team to see whether a way forward can be found. The project embraces the best principles of active citizenship, which the Foreign Secretary might describe as “big society”—dedicated professionals having the compassion and drive to use their expertise to benefit people in a troubled part of the world who are less well off, and to put together a coherent, professional plan that will make a real difference. All they need is a little help from the Government to get things up and running.

I will conclude by reading just three of a number of testimonies sent to me by family members of those with dementia in Ukraine. They speak for themselves. Yulia, who lives in Kyiv, says:

“We live in the Solomianski district of Kyiv, which was severely affected by shelling on January 2. We reside in a nine-storey building on the top floor. Our house shook, probably due to falling debris, even though we don’t live near the building where the debris fell. At the first sounds of explosions, we went into the corridor. Mom was with us. Luckily, she doesn’t fully comprehend what’s happening and doesn’t resist when we all gather in the corridor or even in the vestibule.

But over the years of full-scale war, her condition has worsened, and aggression has emerged. She might start shouting at me that the enemies are about to come. In the last such episode, she grabbed a slipper, threatened me, and demanded that I also must shout because the enemies were coming. I don’t know how to handle such situations. During the last outburst, we called an ambulance, and she was administered a sedative.”

Olga, who is also in Kyiv, says:

“As loud as the past few days have been, we haven’t heard anything like it before. Unfortunately, or fortunately, my mom doesn’t understand what’s happening. It’s impossible to take her to a shelter because she doesn’t want to sit; she constantly walks, tries to go outside somewhere, either puts on a pile of clothes or undresses. So, alarms and explosions don’t affect her, but we are hostages because we can neither take her with us nor leave her alone.”

Finally, Natalia, who is also in Kyiv, says:

“We live in the city centre. We didn’t hear the shelling of Kyiv on December 29, 2022, but it was very loud on January 2. My mum and I woke up from the explosion. She no longer understands what’s happening around her; she doesn’t react. Initially, during the full-scale war, she responded and was afraid, but then her condition deteriorated sharply, so now my mom lives in her own world. I can’t even get her to the corridor during an alarm, to a supposedly safer place. She doesn’t want to. I used to lead her out. I tried, but she would return and lie down on her bed.

I realise that it is important for me to stay calm during the shelling. If I get nervous, my mom senses it and gets anxious too. So, during alarms, I do nothing. I stay calm with her, and pray.”

[Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)]

The debate’s new finishing time is now quarter to 5, and the hon. Member has no right of response because it is a 30-minute wonder. I call the Minister, Andrew Mitchell, for the second debate in a row.

16:30

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Mr Andrew Mitchell)]

May I say at once, Dr Huq, that it is a great privilege, for only the second time in our joint parliamentary careers, to appear before you today? I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for South West Devon (Sir Gary Streeter) for securing this debate, and for his tireless work in supporting the development of dementia-friendly communities. We must ensure that reform and recovery efforts in Ukraine meet the needs and priorities of the entire population, including vulnerable and marginalised groups. My hon. Friend has set out, with great eloquence, a plea in support of one of them.

The Minister for Europe, my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Leo Docherty), would have been delighted to take part in this debate, but I am afraid that he is currently in Uzbekistan on ministerial business. It is therefore my pleasure to respond on behalf of the Government.

The impact of Russia’s illegal and unprovoked invasion has been devastating for the Ukrainian people. Families, children, and elderly and disabled people are forced to make ends meet while sheltering from Russian missiles. My hon. Friend the Member for South West Devon set out in graphic terms what that means for some families.

We know that the disruption caused by the war poses significant risks to social, political and economic stability in Ukraine, and that the insecurity across the frontlines has made it extremely difficult for humanitarian organisations to establish a sustained presence and support those who need it most. The war has severely impacted livelihoods and income, placing huge strains on Ukraine’s social safety net system. The poverty rate increased from 5.5% in 2021 to 24.1% in 2022, thereby increasing the demand for social assistance.

At least a quarter of Ukraine’s population was over the age of 60 before the Russian invasion. As a result, Ukraine has the largest percentage of older people affected by a conflict in the world. About 80% of single older Ukrainians—[Interruption.]

[Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)]

Order.

16:32

Sitting suspended for Divisions in the House.

17:11

On resuming—

[Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)]

We were rudely interrupted by all these blooming Divisions today. Minister, the new, completely hard stop for this debate is 5.20 pm on the clock in this Chamber, so there are nine minutes left.

[Mr Mitchell]

As I was saying, Dr Huq, before we were interrupted by Divisions elsewhere in the House, about 80% of single older Ukrainians live below the poverty line and many of them are reliant on their pension as their sole income. Older people, particularly those living with health conditions such as dementia, struggle to evacuate and face barriers in accessing health services and social support.

In the Foreign Office’s disability inclusion and rights strategy, we have committed to a “life course approach”, striving to protect the rights of all people at all stages of their lives. We must recognise that older people and people with disabilities are experts in their own lives, and their full, active and meaningful participation in decision making is critical for a recovery that meets their needs.

I turn to British action in this respect. To date, we have pledged almost £5 billion in non-military support to Ukraine, which includes funding for humanitarian aid, social protection, and disability inclusion and rehabilitation services. In 2022, we established a civil society grant fund to support organisations, including those helping vulnerable and marginalised groups.

In June last year, along with Ukraine, we co-hosted the Ukraine Recovery Conference in London. Not only did that raise more than $60 billion in international support for Ukraine’s immediate reconstruction and long-term recovery, but our advocacy supported the Government of Ukraine to create a civil society dialogue platform for gender and inclusive reform. I had the honour of attending and speaking at that conference.

Through our multi-donor Perekhid initiative, we are working with Ukraine’s Ministry of Social Policy and UNICEF to strengthen Ukraine’s social protection systems and services. On 23 November last year, our ambassador in Ukraine spoke at a HelpAge International event on age-inclusive reform and recovery, where the Deputy Minister of Ukraine’s Ministry of Social Policy joined him on the panel. In his contribution, our ambassador was clear that the war has hit older people the hardest and that they must play a crucial role in Ukraine’s recovery. Britain supports the inclusive policies and programmes that meet older people’s needs. We must give them a voice and recognise their role in rebuilding their lives and communities, and my hon. Friend the Member for South West Devon made very clear the priority that we all expect to be attached to that.

We are also funding the World Health Organisation, which will partner with HelpAge International to conduct an updated national survey analysing the barriers and risks to older people in Ukraine in relation to healthcare. The WHO aims to provide humanitarian services to older people in the most affected oblasts of Ukraine, including support for their basic needs and case management of older people to access health and social services.

During his visit to Washington last month, the Foreign Secretary announced further programme allocations, including about £8 million for humanitarian activities focusing on the needs of the most vulnerable in Ukraine, such as older people and people with disabilities. We will continue to support the Government in Ukraine in pursuing recovery, reconstruction and modernisation that puts people at its heart.

Our diplomatic response has been comprehensive. We have helped to build a united international coalition against Russia’s invasion and in support of Ukraine. Russia remains internationally isolated, having lost 18 international elections in 2022 and 2023. The United Nations General Assembly vote in February last year demonstrated that the international community is overwhelmingly united behind Ukraine, with nearly three quarters of the entire membership voting for Russia’s immediate withdrawal and an end to the war. We have also worked with allies to strengthen NATO, expedite membership for Finland and Sweden and provide long-term NATO assistance for Ukraine. Without that activity, none of the things that my hon. Friend the Member for South West Devon spoke about would be possible.

To conclude, reform and recovery efforts in Ukraine must be inclusive and take into account the needs of the ageing population. We will continue to work with our allies to ensure that Ukraine gets the support that it needs to win this war, secure a lasting peace and build back better. We commend the bravery and resilience of the Ukrainian people in the face of Russian aggression, and we remain united across the House in our desire for them to prevail.

To my hon. Friend and his eloquent request for support for a very good cause, I pledge the interest of and help from officials in the Foreign Office to advance that cause. I cannot promise him, as he suggested, that there might be some pot of money available, but I can promise him that he and I share the same desire to drive forward this agenda, and we will do everything we can to help him in that respect. I remain confident that this will continue, and Ukraine can always count on the UK to stand by it.

Question put and agreed to.

Free School Meals: Children with SEND

Wednesday 10th January 2024 Westminster Hall

17:18

[Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered access to free school meals for children with special educational needs and disabilities.

It is an honour to serve under your chairship, Dr Huq, and thank you to all of the hon. Members for supporting the debate today. I am pleased to be leading this debate on fair access to free school meals for disabled children and those with special educational needs, to ensure that their voices are heard in this House.

I thank my constituent Irene Dow, because it was after meeting Irene and hearing about her experience as a parent and the shocking unfairness in the current system that I applied for the debate. In the Gallery with her are staff and campaigners from the charity for families with disabled children, Contact. Their incredibly powerful research and campaigning has been fundamental to the debate, and the support they have given to families has been absolutely invaluable.

It was a privilege today to meet campaigner and parent Natalie Hay, who is here with her son. She started campaigning on this issue after realising that many disabled children were eligible for free school meals but were unable to access them. I commend her for her interview today on Sky, for many reasons. I place on record the importance of the work that Irene, Natalie, Contact and many other campaigners do, and I pay tribute to everything they have done to put this injustice on the political agenda. They should not have had to fight this hard and for so long, and I sincerely hope that the Minister will be able to give us assurances that the Government will act swiftly in response. We saw, at Prime Minister’s questions today, how fast the Government can act to respond to an injustice, if the political will is there.

The key issue I wish to raise is that thousands of children with special educational needs and disabilities are missing out on the free school meals that they are eligible for due to their disability or sensory needs. That is despite the law being clear that most should be offered an alternative, such as a supermarket voucher. Children with conditions such as diabetes, epilepsy and autism are subsequently missing out on the equivalent of £570 a year of financial help. That is causing many families to fall into debt and means that they need to turn to food banks, which is completely unacceptable and totally unnecessary. Contact calculates that more 164,000 disabled children are unable to access their free school meals.

[Tahir Ali (Birmingham, Hall Green) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that food bank numbers are at a record high? Children are going to school hungry, and this is often the only hot meal that they will have. On top of that, if children with sensory needs or disabilities are missing out on their entitlements, the Government and statutory organisations need to do a lot more to make sure that no child misses out on those.

[Ian Byrne]

I totally agree. Contact calculates that more than 164,000 disabled children are unable to access their free school meals despite meeting the Government’s eligibility requirements. That is truly shocking. Access to food is a basic human right, and campaigning for universal free school meals is one of the five key asks of the “Right to Food” campaign. While we wait for that, we must ensure that the current system is fair and equal and that it delivers, in practice, what it claims to deliver. Disabled children and their families are already more likely to be living in poverty due to the difficulties of juggling care and work. Research shows that they have also been disproportionately affected by cost of living pressures and the pandemic.

[Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech on this very important subject. Does he agree that it is utterly unacceptable that 60% of the disabled children who are eligible for free school meals cannot eat school meals due to health conditions, dietary requirements or sensory processing difficulties? Schools must make reasonable adjustments to ensure that disabled children can access the free lunches that they are entitled to, and the Department for Education must step up and support schools to do that.

[Ian Byrne]

Absolutely, and I will cover that in my speech. Contact has found that 85% of families missing out on their free school meals entitlement reported that this has hugely increased pressure on their weekly budgets. Last year, I met my constituent Irene, along with a representative of the charity Contact, and they talked to me about why so many disabled children are missing out on free school meals and what can be done about it.

My constituent’s son, aged 15, is severely autistic and has avoidant/restrictive food intake disorder. Since the age of six, he has been at special school. He cannot eat the school food, because of his highly restricted diet. He mostly eats bread, butter and sometimes a bit of cheese and ham. For him, it is about the sight and texture of the food as well as the taste. That means that his mum has always made and paid for his packed lunches, even though he has been eligible for free school meals throughout his school life, which has been over a decade.

As Natalie highlighted in her interview this morning, it was only during lockdown that many families received their free school meals in the form of supermarket vouchers. The vouchers were cut off after schools reopened, and children were once again wrongly denied the free school meals to which they are entitled. We know that support can be given, so that is inexcusable.

[Apsana Begum (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)]

I represent a constituency with one of the highest rates of child poverty in the entire country, and we know only too well that the current situation is compounded by the SEND funding crisis. Does my hon. Friend agree that a simple solution to the problem would be to update the Government’s FSM guidance to make it clear that schools must make reasonable adjustments, such as ensuring that supermarket vouchers can be made available, and to write to all schools to make sure that they communicate that more widely?

[Ian Byrne]

I thank my hon. Friend for that point, with which I absolutely agree and which I will cover later in my questions to the Minister.

We know that support can be given. It is therefore absolutely inexcusable that I am standing before the Minister today to tell him that 164,000 children are not receiving their free school meals. Research carried out by Contact in March 2023 with 1,500 families found that there are different reasons why disabled children cannot access their free school lunch. That includes 60% who cannot eat school meals due to their health condition, dietary requirements or sensory processing difficulties, 22% who are off school because of a long-term medical condition or illness, and 18% who are not in school because they have an education package provided by the council or are waiting for a suitable school place. Many parents are incorrectly being refused food vouchers as a reasonable adjustment; others are being asked to travel miles to pick up a food parcel that does not include food that their child can eat. Families should not have to face that battle.

[Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. I pay tribute to his tireless work in campaigning on issues related to hunger; he is exemplary in that regard.

Today’s debate is particularly timely because yesterday it was announced that primary school children in London would receive free lunches for another year. Will my hon. Friend join me in commending that action on behalf of the authority in London and in saying that surely we can follow that across England? Does he agree that it is important that allowance be made for disabled children in receiving their school meals if they are unable to access the meals that other children are receiving

[Ian Byrne]

I totally agree. Sadiq Khan and his team in London deserve a huge amount of credit for extending the scheme to the second year. Hopefully that can be replicated soon across the country.

Section 512 of the Education Act 1996 places a duty on maintained schools, academies and free schools to provide free school meals to pupils of all ages who meet the criteria. The meals must be provided to all eligible pupils, either on the school premises or at any other place where education is being provided. That could take, for example, the form of a voucher. Schools also have a duty under section 20 of the Equality Act 2010 to make a reasonable adjustment to the way in which free school lunches are delivered if the standard way of delivering them puts a disabled pupil at a substantial disadvantage compared with other pupils. However, many schools are unaware of their responsibilities, as the Government’s free school meal guidance is silent on a school’s duty to make reasonable adjustments and fails to make reference to the Equality Act altogether. That means that even when parents ask for alternative provision, schools are not complying with equalities law. Parents are therefore put in a difficult position in which they are in conflict with the school and then face a battle to challenge the refusal.

I call on the Government to take responsibility, update the free school meals guidance, and provide any additional resource and support needed to schools and local authorities to make this happen immediately. It must be made clear that schools and councils need to provide an alternative—ideally a supermarket voucher—to disabled children who cannot access a free school meal in the regular way. I believe that if the Government addressed the issue and established supermarket vouchers as an alternative to free school meals and an acceptable reasonable adjustment, it would give a workable solution to a situation that so many people find themselves in, as we saw during lockdown.

Last month, the Government conceded that free school meals should be provided to eligible children who are unable to attend school due to their special educational needs and have the package of support often referred to as EOTAS—education otherwise than at school. The Secretary of State for Education has said that it may be a breach of article 14 of the European convention on human rights if children receiving state education other than at school are not provided with meals; the Government are therefore preparing guidance for local authorities, which is expected in March 2024, to ensure that local authorities provide access to a meal for those with EOTAS. That really is welcome: it means that almost 2,000 disabled children across England who have been missing out on a free school meal may now get funding for a free lunch from their local council.

I will finish by asking the Minister five questions. First, will he ask his Department to update the free schools meals guidance to make clear to schools, governing bodies and councils that eligible disabled children can be offered a free school meal in the form of a voucher? Secondly, will he update the free school meals guidance so that it clearly references the Equality Act and the duty to make reasonable adjustments? Thirdly, will he write to all schools about the duty to make reasonable adjustments to the way in which free school lunches are provided so that disabled children do not miss out, and will his Department support schools to ensure the provision of appropriate food at school for children with special educational needs and disabilities that caters to their individual needs? Fourthly, will he use this opportunity to confirm to the House his intentions to produce new guidance on free school meals for children with education otherwise than at school, and to set out timescales for that guidance and how his Department will work with parents to co-produce it? Finally, many parents of disabled children have raised the issue that they are unable to access the Government’s breakfast and holiday schemes. Will he commit to meeting campaigners from Contact and addressing this immediately?

We are living in a country where millions of children are suffering from hunger. Our fight for their right to food will continue. The Minister can make a huge difference right now to the lives of over 164,000 children in this country, without any change in legislation. This is such a simple fix. I and so many struggling families hope that he will do the right thing today.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)]

Order. I remind hon. Members to stand if they want to make a speech, so that we can calculate how much time everyone gets.

17:30

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Huq. I congratulate the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Ian Byrne) on securing this debate and on the way in which he opened it. I also thank Stefanie Curran of Punk Against Poverty, which is based in Torbay, for supplying information to help me in preparing my remarks.

The provision of free school meals is not only a way of supporting families, but a way of ensuring that children are ready to learn and engage with their lessons. It has been good to see this provision supplemented in recent years by the holiday activities and food programme. I have been very pleased to see the excellent work being done to provide the programme in Torbay—especially the work undertaken by the Love Enterprise community interest company in Paignton, which is working to support children aged 11 to 16 over the Christmas holidays. I take on board the point well made by the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby about the need to think about how that provision can be well accessed.

The law is clear: section 512 of the Education Act 1996 places a duty on maintained schools, academies and free schools to provide free school meals to pupils of all ages who meet the criteria. These meals must be provided to all eligible pupils

“either on the school premises or at any place other than the school premises where education is being provided”.

Schools also have a duty under section 20 of the Equality Act 2010 to make reasonable adjustments to the way in which free school meals are delivered if the standard way of delivering them puts a disabled pupil at a substantial disadvantage compared with other pupils. However, it is clear from initial feedback that many schools may be unaware of their responsibilities. The Government’s guidance is silent on how to support disabled children in accessing a free meal if they are unable to access it in the regular way, and it does not mention a school’s duty to make reasonable adjustments.

As has been mentioned, in March last year the charity Contact surveyed 1,500 families with disabled children eligible for free school meals. It found that 60% of disabled children could not eat their free lunch because of their health condition, dietary requirements or sensory processing difficulties that made the lunch room off limits; 22% were off school because of a long-term medical condition or illness; 18% were not in school as they had an education package provided by the council, an EOTAS, or were waiting for a suitable school place; and 6% were attending a school without a canteen. Overall, it was estimated that a third of eligible disabled children cannot access the free school meal to which they are entitled, for reasons relating to their condition or disability. As a result, more than 164,000 disabled children are missing out on up to £570-worth of food each year, despite the law stating that reasonable adjustments must be made.

It is also worth noting some of the feedback I received while preparing for this debate. Even where a suitable meal provision is available in a way that can be accessed, the issue persists that children are sometimes offered a very limited choice. One parent who contacted me highlighted how her son ended up getting a jacket potato every day. Yes, it met his dietary needs, and yes, it was nutritious, but being offered the same meal every day was unlikely to provide a varied diet or encourage him to take up the school meal on offer.

We know that meeting dietary needs is not unique to school-age children. We have seen many options develop in recent years to support those with complex dietary needs. There is a range of home delivery services that we can all find on our phones, and there are options to provide vouchers that allow products to be bought from suppliers that are better able to supply something specialist.

I am conscious of time, and I am looking forward to colleagues’ contributions and the Minister’s response. There are some specific points that I would be interested to hear the Minister to cover. First, when he updates the free school meals guidance, will he make sure that it makes clear reference to the duty to make reasonable adjustments? Will he write to all schools to remind them of their duty to make these adjustments? Will he ensure that when the Government publish their new free school meals guidance, it is co-produced with affected families? What options will he encourage schools to consider in order to ensure that a nutritious free school meal that meets the dietary needs of disabled children is available? That does not mean just providing the same meal every day.

I welcome the chance to have highlighted this important issue. I hope the Minister will set out what difference can be made to ensure that those who have disabilities do not miss out on the opportunity of the hot free school meal to which they are legally entitled.

17:35

[Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Dr Huq. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Ian Byrne) on securing this important debate, which shines a light on the need to ensure that free school meals are made accessible to all children, including those with special educational needs and disabilities.

Just this week, there was fantastic news for all of us working to end child hunger: the London Mayor, Sadiq Khan, announced that he will extend his programme of free school meals for all primary school kids in London for another year. This follows the huge success of his programme so far, which since September has provided 17 million healthy, warm, nutritious meals to nearly 300,000 primary school children across London schools, boosting their health, wellbeing and attainment and supporting their families. But as today’s debate highlights, having free school meals for all must go beyond making sure that all children are eligible. It means scrutinising the delivery of free school meals and making sure that all children, including those with disabilities, can access them fully. That includes children like Jordan.

Jordan is five years old. He has hydrocephalus, cerebral palsy and epilepsy. Due to his disability, he struggles to eat solid food. In the past, this has meant that he could not put on weight, because it was taking him more calories to digest food than he could absorb from it. Fortunately, since Jordan was two, he has benefited from a blended diet fed through a gastrostomy button. This has helped him significantly, allowing him to put on weight and to grow. He can finally access the nutrition he needs, but Jordan’s school cannot cater for the blended diet that has benefited him significantly so far. That means that he misses out on the free school lunch he is entitled to, so his family have to send in blended food for him to make sure that he does not go hungry.

Jordan is not alone: 60% of disabled children who are eligible for free school lunches cannot access them because of their disabilities. Many children with conditions such as autism or avoidant restrictive food intake disorder are unable to eat the food provided by their school. This is an injustice. It leaves disabled kids cruelly excluded and leaves their families without much-needed support. I have long been an advocate for free school meals for all. With 4 million children living in poverty, including more than a third of children in Coventry South, there are horror stories of kids crying because they are hungry or being forced to steal food for their lunch.

We know that free school meals can be transformational. That is backed up by research that consistently shows that free school meals improve children’s health, concentration, attainment and behaviour. They are a lifeline for families, too, saving them hundreds of pounds each year, reducing stress and saving parents’ time, but it is a gross injustice to give free school meals to some children while those with disabilities are left without.

Research shows that families with disabled children would need a pay rise of £10,000 a year to cover the additional costs they incur. It is these children who need free healthy lunches the most, particularly as the cost of living crisis continues to bite, so it is vital that the Government act to address this cruel inconsistency. That means supporting schools to adjust lunches to meet the needs of disabled kids. It also means offering food vouchers as an alternative, so that where schools cannot provide food suitable for disabled children or where children are not in school because of their disabilities, families are provided with financial support to feed their children.

I want to live in a world where no child goes hungry and no families are left struggling to put food on the table for their kids. That is why I have been campaigning alongside many colleagues for over a year for free school meals for all primary school children. Today’s debate highlights the need not just to widen the entitlement to free school meals, but to make sure that there is more flexibility in their delivery. No child should be missing out just because of their disability, so let us extend free school meals to all children. Let us end the injustice that sees kids like Jordan missing out. Let us ensure that every primary school child across the UK has access to a free, healthy lunch, each and every day.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)]

Order. The Front Benchers will start at 6.02 pm, which leaves us with a speaking limit of three minutes for each Back Bencher.

17:39

[Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Huq. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Ian Byrne) for securing this important debate.

The reason I want to speak is very simple, and I will be brief. My constituent Emma Knops contacted me because her children suffer from coeliac disease, are dairy and soy-intolerant and have sensory processing difficulties. The issue here seems to me an incredibly straightforward one: the law says one thing and the guidance says another. The Government have a choice: they can change the law or they can change the guidance. It seems to me that there is no desire to change the law; they must therefore change the guidance.

17:40

[Sarah Dyke (Somerton and Frome) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Dr Huq. I thank the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Ian Byrne) for securing this debate.

Mainstream and special schools across Somerset are stretched beyond sense and practicality. Local education practitioners and local authorities are at the top of their class in delivering tailored care, but 13 years of Tory government have left them without the pens and paper they need to get on with the job.

We need to start with clear Government guidance. The free school meals guidance from February 2023 does not even include the term “SEND”. It has no specific guidance for SEND children and pretends that children on free school meals have a homogeneous identity, devoid of nuance or feeling. It is unfit for purpose. This speaks to a wider failing in Government guidance that sees disability as an optional add-on to legislation, not an integral part of it. We need to envelop children with special needs and disabilities, throughout all educational guidance.

I receive frequent representations from neurodivergent constituents who, after contact with Government services, have felt stigmatised and patronised. Often there is not a deliberate bias, but I ask that the Government consider providing education and training resources, delivered digitally and at low cost and based on the very latest clinical information.

The Liberal Democrats have already called for continuous, high-quality professional development for all teachers. It would be delivered in schools by mental health practitioners with ringfenced funding, and would prioritise early intervention and effective communication. Unfortunately, my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) is unwell and is not able to speak today, but I urge hon. Members to fully support her Bill on the issue.

SEND children are much more likely to be suspended or excluded. The suspension rate for England’s 2022-23 autumn term was four times higher for SEND pupils with an EHCP. The permanent exclusion rate was six times higher for SEND pupils without an EHCP. Parents and special guardians are left without the food support to which they are legally entitled. Food parcels rarely meet the minimum standard required, so special schools such as Critchill School in Frome need help to bridge the SEND funding gap. I have many more constituents who would thrive in these schools, where they would be understood and supported, but who cannot get in because there are simply no places.

We need to see nutritional needs included as standard on every EHCP. That includes sensory issues with certain foods; possible nutrition issues due to selective eating behaviours; and refusal to eat, or to eat in public. At the moment, schools cannot opt out and they cannot suck it up. As eating disorders campaigner Sophie Maclean told me, “Tough love just doesn’t work.”

17:43

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is indeed a pleasure to be called in this debate, Dr Huq. I first thank the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Ian Byrne) for leading today’s debate on this issue. He often brings debates to Westminster Hall and I am always very pleased to come along and support him. They are always real issues in my constituency; this certainly is. I understand that the Minister has no responsibility for Northern Ireland, and I do not ask him to answer on the Northern Irish perspective, but I wish to add that perspective to this debate, and to support the hon. Gentleman.

The hon. Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster) referred to a person who had the same meal every day. My goodness! Where is the nutrition? Where is the variety? How do they grow and what do they eat? Everyone is probably very much aware that you are what you eat. We often talk about the importance of children in our local schools having a healthy, balanced diet that not only aids their learning but stimulates their brain. It is no secret that parents who have children suffering with disabilities or with special educational needs often require specialist diets for them.

In Northern Ireland, NI Direct has confirmed that if a child has a statement of special educational needs and is designated as having a special diet, they quality for free school meals; we have a system in place. Some 64,500 pupils in Northern Ireland have some form of SEN, and some 22,000 of those have a statement of SEN. Poverty rates in Northern Ireland have skyrocketed over the last year, which is why I am here to support the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation has concluded that 110,000 children across Northern Ireland are living in poverty. The overall poverty rate is highest among children; clearly. free school meals for pupils could help address that.

I believe that what I am describing in Northern Ireland is replicated here on the mainland; the hon. Gentleman said that in his introduction. Poverty can lead to all sorts of other issues for young children in school, including obesity and dental decay. We had a debate in the Chamber just yesterday on NHS dentistry; dentistry, the food we eat and children at school are all part of the same theme. Schools play a large part in helping young people develop both physically and mentally, and in the UK, food insecurity is mostly due to households’ inability to afford nutritious food.

To conclude, every child in school has a right to a healthy, balanced and nutritious lunch. As for those with special educational needs or certain disabilities, we must always take their choices into account. Offering a free school meal takes so much pressure off parents. Parents out there who think their children may be eligible for free school meals but are not sure should get in touch with their local representative—those who are in this debate today. I urge the Minister to ensure that the same opportunities are offered across the United Kingdom, and that we do all we can to support those in food poverty.

17:46

[Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Huq. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Ian Byrne) for securing this important debate, and for his work on the “Right to Food” campaign, which I fully support. This debate is quite personal to me. I really empathise with the campaigners and parents here today. For 27 years I was a carer to my daughter, Maria, who had severe disabilities, so I know from my own experience the pressures that are put on families.

My hon. Friend, other Members here and I were elected on a manifesto that pledged to poverty-proof schools. Free breakfast clubs and universal free school meals were at the heart of that. I am proud to still champion those policies, because the fact that so many children in Britain go hungry every day is shameful. Food insecurity can utterly blight children’s immediate and future life. It can trigger mental health problems, damage a child’s physical health and lead to obesity or restricted growth. It affects children’s school attendance as well as their ability to learn. Just ask any teacher, and they will say that a hungry child cannot concentrate in class. I cannot forget the BBC report in 2018, in which a headteacher described their hungry pupils as having “grey skin” due to malnutrition.

Six years on and after the pandemic, food insecurity still blights Britain’s children. Something has gone terribly wrong in our country. A society that cares for its children does not let them go hungry, but tragically, that is what successive Conservative Governments have done. In my constituency, over 19% of children living in and attending schools in County Durham have an SEN or EHCP, but only 9.4% of them are eligible for free school meals. As we have heard, the situation is harder for children with disabilities, with 33% of them missing out on free school meals provision. That is more than 164,000, or one third, of eligible disabled pupils missing out on their free school meals, which amounts to £570-worth of food each year.

The solutions are obvious, as my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby, outlined: update the free school meals guidance, and make it clear that schools can provide an alternative for disabled children, such as supermarket vouchers. Brighton and Hove City Council has introduced such a scheme, so will the Secretary of State pledge to do so here today? That would be a start in repairing our society’s safety net, which has been so badly damaged by the last 14 years of austerity.

17:50

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is an honour to follow all the previous speakers. I will follow on from that mention of Brighton and Hove.

Brighton and Hove is slightly, but not hugely, above the national average for young people and children who have special educational needs, and for young people with EHCPs. We are not an outrider in that sense, but we do notice more and more children not attending school, not because their parents are keeping them at home—that is another issue entirely—but because the schools are unable to provide the special educational needs support that those children need. My view is that this issue is caused by two things. The first is the disastrous austerity policies that have led to our schools suffering and unable to support pupils. Secondly—this is more controversial—I personally believe that we have had a 20-year incorrect educational project, which believes in integration only, and not that separate special schools are sometimes best for many young people.

No matter what additional support is provided, I am afraid that a pupil with sensory needs will not always manage to work in a large secondary school where there are thousands of children running around, and they can sink. However, if they are at a special school that can provide for their needs in an alternative location with sensory adaptations, usually off site, they can flourish. These schools used to be commonly provided by the mainstream—by local authorities, at a reasonable price for the authority. Then, when the children leave the school or move into mainstream school, if that moment comes, they are a big fish in a small pond, rather than a small fish with lots of sharks. I am afraid that we have shut down many of those local authority schools, and local authorities cannot afford to place pupils in special schools, so a lot of children have been put into education otherwise than at school, and are therefore not provided with free school meals.

Only yesterday, the Minister wrote to me to say:

“Regarding students receiving…EOTAS, the department’s position is that pupils must be registered with a state-funded school in order to be eligible”,

and that the Department does not plan to change that. Well, that seems different from today’s briefing from the Department, so of course there is confusion. Brighton and Hove has decided that we will skip past this confusion and mandate free school meals for all those children. They are not there because of parent choice; they have been placed there by the authority, because the authority cannot find suitable accommodation. They must be given vouchers, and the Minister should update the guidance to ensure that that happens.

17:53

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure, as ever, to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Huq. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Ian Byrne) for securing this very timely debate. I declare an interest: I and my four brothers were on free school meals for most of our school time, so I have lots of experience of what comes with free school meals.

The Government need to listen. I have met the Minister a number of times—and you know what? I have always found him very helpful and prepared to listen; he has not changed his mind on many things, mind, but he has always been courteous. Hopefully on this occasion he will listen to what the SEND families have to say, because the track record on this issue is pretty poor.

I am a firm believer in universal free school meals for all primary and secondary school students—something that a lot of people agree with. Other people disagree with it because of various spurious arguments about universality. As one of my hon. Friends said, the Mayor of London, various London boroughs, and the devolved Governments in Wales and Scotland have shown that universal free school meals can be delivered, so I found it very distressing to learn from the charity Contact that 164,000 disabled children are missing out on £570-worth of food each year because of the failure to abide by a clear requirement under the Education Act 1996. The disregard of the duty to make reasonable adjustments for disabled children through the issuing of supermarket vouchers to ensure compliance with the Equality Act 2010 is equally disturbing.

I hope the Minister listens to what is being said in the debate. What could be more important in this day and age than feeding kids with special educational needs and disabilities? We need to look after people, and I plead with the Minister to listen to what is being said. All we are saying is that we should feed the children who are most in need.

17:56

[Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Dr Huq. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Ian Byrne) on securing this important debate on an issue that affects some of the most vulnerable children who have special educational needs and disabilities, and who live in very low-income households, making them eligible for free school meals.

I am grateful to the charity Contact and to Irene and Natalie, who are in the Gallery, for the work that they have done to bring to public attention the issue of children with special educational needs and disabilities who are eligible for free school meals but unable to access them, and for all their advocacy on behalf of families with disabled children. I also thank all hon. and right hon. Members who have participated in the debate. We have heard from MPs who represent constituencies right across the country, including the hon. Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster), the right hon. Member for North East Somerset (Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg), my hon. Friends the Members for City of Durham (Mary Kelly Foy) and for Brighton, Kemptown (Lloyd Russell-Moyle), the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Sarah Dyke), and my hon. Friends the Members for Coventry South (Zarah Sultana) and for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery), and from colleagues who made interventions—

[Jim Shannon]

And Strangford!

[Helen Hayes]

Of course. It would not be a Westminster Hall debate if we had not heard from the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), and I apologise profusely for that omission.

We have heard about the impact that the failure to implement Government legislation is having on families across the country. The law places a duty on maintained schools, academies and free schools to provide free school meals to pupils of all ages who meet specific criteria. Schools also have a duty under the Equality Act to make reasonable adjustments to the way that free school lunches are delivered, if the standard way of delivering them would put a disabled pupil at a substantial disadvantage compared with other pupils. These duties are not reflected in the current guidance for schools.

There is also a gap in the legislation in relation to independent schools. Many children with special educational needs and disabilities attend specialist independent schools, with funding from local authorities, under their education, health and care plans, but there is no duty on those schools to provide free school meals. That is one of the many examples of the ways in which children with special educational needs and disabilities are simply not a priority for the Government.

The system of support on which children with SEND and their families rely is beyond breaking point. The Government delayed their SEND review three times, and much of the SEND and alternative provision improvement plan will not come into effect until 2025, six years after the review was announced. During that time, 300,000 children with SEND will have left secondary school, having spent the entirety of their school education under an increasingly failing system of SEND support. This issue should be an urgent priority for the Government. The system is failing children and their families, and it is an increasingly prominent factor in the number of councils issuing section 114 notices and effectively declaring bankruptcy because they can no longer balance their budget.

The Childhood Trust has found that families of children with SEND are disproportionately affected by the cost of living crisis, and they are more likely to live in poverty than families of children without SEND needs. Our children need and deserve so much better. Labour will introduce free breakfast clubs in every primary school to ensure that no child has to start the school day hungry. We will work to make mainstream schools inclusive for children with special educational needs and disabilities, including by supporting teachers to gain the skills and knowledge they need to teach children with SEND. We will limit the number of branded items that schools can specify in the school uniform to put money back in parents’ pockets, and we will work tirelessly to end the unacceptable level of child poverty, which has been growing so shamefully on this Government’s watch.

The Tory cost of living crisis is making life hard for far too many families, and it means that in the short term, access to entitlements, such as free school meals for children who are eligible, is more important than ever, and there is no excuse for the current failure. I hope the Minister will set out the steps he will take to ensure that children with SEND who are eligible for free school meals can access them, and that schools and other education settings are properly supported to meet their duties under both the Education Act and the Equality Act.

18:01

[The Minister for Schools (Damian Hinds)]

What a pleasure it is to serve with you in the Chair, Dr Huq, I think for the first time. I congratulate the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Ian Byrne) on securing this debate on an important matter, as demonstrated by the over-subscription of this debate this afternoon. For their contributions, I thank the hon. Members for Coventry South (Zarah Sultana), for Somerton and Frome (Sarah Dyke), for Strangford (Jim Shannon), of course, for City of Durham (Mary Kelly Foy), for Brighton, Kemptown (Lloyd Russell-Moyle) and for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery). My hon. Friend the Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster) gave a compelling speech, and my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg) made a compelling and pithy point in his speech.

We all agree about the importance of ensuring that all children in school are given the best opportunities to thrive, and the Government are determined to ensure that every child, regardless of background or circumstances, can get the very best start in life. Today, we discuss those who have a special educational need or disability, and colleagues have raised several striking case studies of individual children and their circumstances from their constituency case load or, in some cases, from their personal family experience.

We support, of course, the provision of nutritious food in schools so that pupils develop healthy eating habits and can concentrate and learn, and free school meal provision is important to that being achieved in schools. This Government have extended eligibility for free school meals more than any other. We spend over £1 billion a year delivering free lunches to the greatest ever proportion of school children—over a third. That one in three compares with the one in six who were receiving a free school meal in 2010. That change came despite employment being up by millions, unemployment being down by a million, 600,000 fewer children being in workless households, and the proportion of those in work on low pay coming down substantially since the introduction of the national living wage in 20215-16.

Free school meal provision includes 2 million pupils who are eligible for benefits-related free school meals and a further 90,000 disadvantaged students in further education who receive a free meal at lunch time. In addition, a further 1.3 million infants in reception and years 1 and 2 receive a free meal under the universal infant free school meal policy, which we introduced in 2014. That helps to improve children's education and boost their health, and it saves parents about £480 a year. We have also introduced extensive protections, which have been in effect since 2018, to ensure that while universal credit is being fully rolled out, any family eligible for free school meals transitioning to universal credit from the legacy benefits will retain their entitlement to free school meals, even if they move above the income threshold.

Pupils are eligible for benefits-related free school meals if they or their parents are in receipt of one of the eligible benefits and have submitted a request for meals. As colleagues will know, schools have a duty to provide nutritious, free meals to pupils who are registered with a state-funded school and meet the eligibility criteria for free school meals. The provision should be made for eligible pupils either on the school premises or at any other place where education of those pupils is being provided.

There are, of course, many pupils with special educational needs and disability status that meet the eligibility criteria necessary for free meals. The latest published statistics show that 41.1% of pupils with an education, health and care plan—known commonly as an EHCP—and 37.5% of pupils who are on what is known as SEND support were eligible for free school meals provision in 2023. Similarly, many children with disabilities but not special educational needs will be eligible, and those rates are higher than the overall proportion of pupils eligible for free school meals in England.

The standard food offering provided by schools will, of course, be suitable to the needs of many of these children. However, some pupils with additional needs may require special food provision or arrangements. Let me be very clear: all schools have duties under the Equality Act 2010 towards individual disabled children and young people, and they must make reasonable adjustments to prevent them being put at a substantial disadvantage. That means that a school cannot treat a pupil unfairly as a consequence of their disability.

For the provision of school meals, that could lead to schools making reasonable adjustments to ensure that eligible pupils could still access their entitlement. For example, a school could let a pupil with sensory-processing issues go into the dinner hall before other pupils, or it could appropriately tailor the meal choices to the pupil’s particular needs. Schools do, of course, do those things and are best able to understand the individual children and the circumstances of their school.

We have published non-statutory guidance for schools to advise them generally on their duties to make reasonable adjustments for disabled pupils and to support them in doing so. I would also note that, while schools are not obliged to make such adjustments for pupils who are not disabled, many do work with pupils and their families to accommodate a variety of needs. Working with pupils to make adjustments to help them access food can, of course, as a couple of colleagues have alluded to, also help to improve attendance and behaviour. Further to that, we encourage schools to work with parents and pupils to ensure that their food provision adequately meets a diverse range of needs, so that it can be enjoyed and benefited from by all.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for giving way. My involvement in this is partly informed by constituents writing to me, but also as the aunt of a child whose neurodiversity means that she has a severely restricted diet, which is basically beige things and chocolate. I know that my sister has had huge problems in trying to ensure that she gets the right support at school, but I wanted to ask specifically about the Food Standards Agency. As I understand it, the FSA has been carrying out a review into schools’ compliance with the national school food standards, because there is very little information on the extent to which schools do comply with those standards. Does the Minister also see a role for the FSA in looking at whether schools meet that criteria and are actually meeting the needs of SEND pupils in terms of dietary needs?

[Damian Hinds]

Obviously the quality of school food is critical, and regulations cover not only free school meals, in the sense of lunches, but all food that is available during the school day—for example, in breakfast clubs that schools provide and even in tuck shops. I may get inspiration, but I think the standards cover up to 6 pm in the evening for things going on during the school day.

When one talks about compliance with regulations, one has to think differently about what is done at a system level and for individual children. Candidly, I do not think that it is realistic to say that you could have a regulatory agency that was looking at every individual case of individual children and their requirements in that particular school, but it is important that we have those standards. If the hon. Lady would like, I would be very happy, of course, to follow up with her separately.

That, in fact, brings me on to the point that I have in front of me, which is that, where parents do have specific concerns that a school’s legal obligations regarding their child are not being met, those should be raised with the school in the first instance, and subsequently, as necessary, with the academy trust or local authority.

[Helen Hayes]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I am simply making the point that the absence of any reference in the guidance to the legislation results in a situation of conflict—

[Damian Hinds]

I ask the hon. Lady only to be patient. That was a central point made by the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby and clearly I need to come on to it. To be straightforward and clear, we will update our free school meals guidance to make reference to the reasonable adjustments duty that is already set out in non-statutory guidance published by the Department elsewhere, in order to heighten awareness about reasonable adjustments, in particular as it relates to meal provision among schools, local authorities and families to support local solutions. That should give parents clarity and something to point schools to when discussing their child’s needs.

Where pupils have a medical condition that impacts their access to food, section 100 of the Children and Families Act 2014 places a legal duty on schools to make arrangements to support pupils with their medical condition. The accompanying statutory guidance from 2015 included in the document “Supporting pupils at school with medical conditions” sets out that governing bodies must have regard to that guidance when carrying out the duty.

The guidance makes it clear that schools should ensure that they are aware of any pupils with medical conditions and that they have policies and processes in place so that those conditions can be well managed. The guidance is also clear that that includes how the processes will be implemented and the potential role of individual healthcare plans in supporting pupils. The guidance is clear that any individual plans should include consideration of

“access to food and drink where this is used to manage their condition”

and any “dietary requirements”.

Members also asked whether supermarket vouchers could be provided in lieu of meals. The requirements for free school meals are clear, such that eligible children should receive their free meal either on the school premises or at any other place where education is being provided. In some circumstances, it may be appropriate to provide supermarket vouchers to parents in lieu of meals. Equally, in other cases, it may be more appropriate for other arrangements to be made, such as food parcels.

The exact nature of alternative arrangements will of course depend on individual circumstances and should be determined case by case. It is rightly up to schools to decide how the provision should be made. We believe that they are best placed to understand individual circumstances, their families and their children, and to tailor their food provision accordingly. Ultimately, the best and most nutritious option is typically for children and young people to receive a hot and freshly cooked meal at school. That is what our policy supports, while allowing for alternative arrangements such as food parcels and vouchers to be put in place where necessary.

It is a condition of free school meal eligibility that children are registered with a state-funded school. Eligible pupils, including those with special educational needs and disabilities, are entitled to receive free meals. Some children are not able to attend a school setting on a long-term basis or sometimes at all, owing to their complex needs. It is right that the Government’s high-level policy and funding framework leaves flexibility for local responses to the complex needs of individual children.

The Department allocates high-needs funding to local authorities to support the education and learning of children with special educational needs and disabilities, and local authorities have wide discretion over the use of that funding. We strongly encourage parents of children with complex food needs to be in touch with their school or local authority to discuss the support available to them.

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

Will the Minister give way?

[Damian Hinds]

I will ask the hon. Gentleman to forgive me, because I want to ensure that I get through and cover the points. If I end up with more than a minute or two at the end, I will try to come back to him, if that is all right.

[Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)]

Order. We also need to allow two minutes for Ian Byrne to conclude.

[Damian Hinds]

Which makes it slightly less likely, but let us see how we get on.

I am aware that concerns have been raised in relation to food provision for the particular group of children we discussed earlier: those with complex needs who are educated otherwise than at school, commonly known—perhaps this is the point that the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown was about to raise—by the acronym EOTAS. Section 61 of the Children and Families Act 2014 allows for local authorities to make special educational provision for those children outside of a school setting. The latest published school statistics show that as of January 2023, there are about 8,000 children and young people receiving EOTAS.

Of course, not all those children and young people would qualify for free school meals under the benefits-related criteria. We fund local authorities to support those children, and decisions about exactly what is included in individual EOTAS packages rightly fall to them. We therefore advise parents of children receiving EOTAS to speak with the local authority if they have concerns. I note the concerns that have been raised today about food provision for children receiving EOTAS under section 61, and I can confirm that my Department will review our published free school meals guidance on that point. That will be available in the spring. We will of course work closely with stakeholders, including parents, to develop the guidance.

Free meal provision to eligible pupils with SEND is only a small part of the overall package of support rightly provided in recognition of the additional challenges faced by those children. To illustrate that, funding for mainstream schools and high-needs funding for children and young people with complex needs will be more than £1.8 billion higher next year compared with this financial year, and total schools funding will be £59.6 billion—the highest ever in real terms per pupil. Within that, high-needs funding will be more than £10.5 billion in 2024-25, which is an increase of more than 60% from 2019-20. That funding will help local authorities and schools with the increasing costs of supporting children and young people with SEND.

I realise that I am short of time, so I will conclude because I think the main points that the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby would want me to come back to are the questions that he set out, and I can reassure him on those points. On his specific question about the holidays and activities fund programme and breakfast programme, I ask him to give me more information so that I can respond more fully in writing. I hope that on his main questions about not creating new guidance, because it already exists, but clarifying and communicating the guidance to schools on reasonable adjustments for children with disabilities and to local authorities about reflecting the need for food to be considered in packages for EOTAS, he will take some reassurance from what I have said. It remains only for me to congratulate and thank again the hon. Gentleman and all Members who have taken part in the debate.

[Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)]

With a hard stop when the clock says 6.19 pm, I call Ian Byrne.

18:16

[Ian Byrne]

I thank the Minister and everybody else for speaking in the debate. As was mentioned, it was over-subscribed, which will be a comfort to all the campaigners and to Contact itself. I thank the Minister for his response and for agreeing to update the current free school meals guidance so that it will avoid any confusion and make quite clear the duties of schools to make reasonable adjustments under the Equality Act. I thank him for his comments, and I will be keeping his feet to the fire. I will write to him about the HAF, and our beady eyes will be watching the progress of the commitments that have been made. We will be in constant contact over the issue. I thank very much everybody who has contributed.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered access to free school meals for children with special educational needs and disabilities.

18:18

Sitting adjourned.