Grand Committee
(10 years, 6 months ago)
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The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Colwyn) (Con)
My Lords, the usual warning: if there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committee will adjourn as soon as the Division Bells are rung and resume after 10 minutes.
Children and Families Bill
(10 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Northbourne
56: After Clause 11, insert the following new Clause—
“Children’s welfare: duties of parents
For the purposes of section 3(1) of the Children Act 1989, the duties of the parent to their child are—
(a) to safeguard and promote the child’s health, development and welfare;
(b) to provide in a manner appropriate to the age and development of the child—
(i) direction; and
(ii) guidance,
to the child;
(c) if the child is not living with the parent, to maintain personal relations and contact with the child on a regular basis,
but only in so far as compliance with this section if practicable and in the best interest of the child.”
Lord Northbourne (CB)
My Lords, having been swept away at the end of the previous session, I now have the opening say-so. Both my amendments to this important Bill are about the problems of dysfunctional families and disadvantaged children. Although this Bill suggests many important ways in which current practice could be improved—and I support many of the changes in the Bill—it does not address the possibility of reducing the number of dysfunctional families and disadvantaged children in our society. It fails to address prevention. Prevention could and, in my view, should be an important part of this Bill. My Amendments 56 and 57 explore just two of the many possible ways in which we could reduce the number of dysfunctional families and disadvantaged children in our society in the future.
Amendment 56 is about defining the duties of a parent. We all know, alas, that too many young people become parents without thinking about what their child will need of them or what parenting will involve for their own future life and lifestyle. We all know that in good schools PSHE and SRE teachers do their best to teach young people these things but they need more help than we are giving them. The relevant law on this is the Children Act 1989. As your Lordships will know, it says in Section 3(1):
“In this Act ‘parental responsibility’ means all the rights, duties, powers, responsibilities and authority which by law a parent of a child has in relation to the child and his property”.
That definition may be helpful for lawyers who understand and have access to the relevant case law. It gives no clear guidance to a child or a teacher.
We need a much clearer and more understandable statement of the law, setting out the sort of role that we expect parents to play. Such a statement should not be based on outdated moral values but on the needs of the child. Of course, those needs include not only food, warmth, shelter and consistent care but being able to feel safe and loved—the secure attachment to one or two specific adults which gives a child a sense of being valued and which builds their self-confidence for life.
They have such a statement in Finland, in France and, oddly enough, in Scotland. I have used a Scottish form of words in this amendment to define the duties of a parent. This is a probing amendment and I would welcome comments on whether the wording I have suggested is helpful. For example, it may be that the duty of fathers and of mothers should be considered separately; I am not at all sure about that.
It is important to remember that the duties referred to in the Children Act are only part of the responsibilities of a parent, which is what that Act defines. Only if we as a society can agree a reasonable statement of the duties of a parent will it be possible for us to pass on to our children the obligations that parenthood will bring for them. I beg to move.
Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, for tabling this amendment. I, of course, agree that parents should support and guide their children: it is the key relationship. Mothers and fathers have joint responsibility. Like the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, I agree that prevention is absolutely key to tackling dysfunction. His amendment takes note of supporting the child’s “health, development and welfare”. Like him, I suspect, I think that people are often not prepared for the responsibilities of parenthood and that we as a society have not taken this seriously, believing that parenthood comes naturally.
I am a great supporter of parenthood teaching in schools, clinics or wherever. Most young people become parents and often do not know much about the importance of child development, talking to children, setting boundaries and so on. Many parenthood classes are available for parents only once the child gets into trouble. Frankly, that is too late. Early intervention should start with parents but they are sometimes bewildered. Perhaps the Minister or somebody else knows how many parenthood schemes exist in this country to teach parents or future parents to be better parents, not when the child gets into trouble but as an education scheme for all parents. After all, not everybody has a super nanny, as in the television programme of that name, to iron out horrendous problems once the family has dug itself into a hole. Parents are often not well supported. I worry about austerity measures which hit poor families hardest and about child poverty policies, which may plunge even more parents into difficulty. It is a challenge to bring up children in any event; it must be extremely challenging to bring up children in poverty.
The Earl of Listowel (CB)
My Lords, I support Amendment 56 in the name of my noble friend Lord Northbourne, and regret that I failed to add my name to it. When I looked at the figures for the United States recently, I discovered that a third of boys, and two-thirds of black boys, were growing up without a father in the home, which is a pointer to where we might end up if we do not adopt my noble friend’s amendment. I have had the privilege of working with young people. I have worked with young people in hostels and boys have “adopted” me as their father. I have spoken with young men working in those hostels about what it was like for them to be brought up by their mothers on their own, and how guilty they felt about the burden they had put on them. The honourable Andrea Leadsom MP, who does such great work around early years provision, highlights the concern that when mothers bring children up on their own they risk feeling overwhelmed by that burden and withdraw their emotional support for their children.
I believe that this provision is already law in France and several other European countries. This is such an important issue that I hope the Minister will give a positive response. President Barack Obama grew up in a household without a father. Your Lordships may remember the speech he made as a senator in 2008.
He said:
“But if we are honest with ourselves, we’ll admit that … too many fathers … are … missing—missing from too many lives and too many homes. They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it. You and I know how true this is in the African-American community. We know that more than half of all black children live in single-parent households, a number that has doubled—doubled—since we were children. We know the statistics—that children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and 20 times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioural problems, or run away from home or become teenage parents themselves. And the foundations of our community are weaker because of it”.
That is the end of the quotation from his speech.
I hope that the Minister can give a very positive response to my noble friend’s amendment. Parents sticking together and sticking with their children is vital to the well-being of all our children. In my experience, children who do not have parents or carers who stick with them are unlikely to stick at friendships, at being husbands or wives or at jobs or difficult tasks themselves. I support my noble friend, and I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)
My Lords, I, too, support the principle behind the noble Lord’s amendment. In Section 3(1) of the Children Act 1989, “parental responsibility” means,
“all the rights, duties, powers, responsibilities and authority which by law a parent of a child has in relation to the child and his property”.
As has been said, one of the saddest things is that when parents separate, a substantial number of fathers walk out—very often for good reason—but in doing so they abandon their children. I regret that I have not checked the percentage but it is large, something like 60%. I believe that in the Children Act there should be something to remind the public that those rights, duties and responsibilities include that which the noble Lord has set out.
Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top (Lab)
My Lords, I support the overall aim of the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, that the Bill should address the importance of engaging people in what parenting means before they become parents. When I was Minister for Social Exclusion I had the enormous privilege to have a look at some of the evidence-based programmes around parenting. I recommend that Ministers have a look at a programme called Teens and Toddlers, which I encouraged local authorities to adopt. Young people identified by their teachers as probably vulnerable to becoming young parents were put on to this programme, which lasted for about 12 weeks. The youngsters thought that the programme was quite good because they got out of school for one day a week. In the morning they would care for a particular child in an early-years setting, week in and week out, so they got to know that child and discovered that the process was not as simple and straightforward as it might have been made out to be. They found that some children were really quite difficult, even at that very early age. I met two or three groups of young people who were engaged in the programme, as well as some who had done it some years before, and they said things like, “It was very clear that no one else spent any time with this child, so the child never looked at me for weeks”. They learnt an enormous amount. They learnt that children need feeding regularly, that they make a noise, and that they are expensive. After the session with the children in the early years setting, there would be group sessions with their peers and the tutors who were running the course. They would explore what it was all about. Many of them had never been parented; they had been parented by siblings. In particular, some of the young women involved had to look after their own young siblings.
I loved, enjoyed and was fascinated by the sessions. I met some of the young people who had been on the first course to be run in this country around eight years earlier, in the London Borough of Greenwich. Of the dozen young people who had been on that course, not a single one had become a parent. They all said, “We have learnt so much from doing the course and we knew that we had choices. We made the choice to be sensible and that we would not have a child early”. I remember one young black woman saying, “I will be 24 before I have a child because I want that child to succeed and I want a life as well”. She had learnt that from this programme, and it is exactly what the Government should be encouraging. Young people should learn about the seriousness of being a parent. Yes, it can be joyful, but it is expensive, it restricts what you can do, and it takes real knowledge and understanding of what you are doing to be a good parent. When we do not take that seriously, we are colluding with the issue of children being born into dysfunctional families. We know what can be done, so it is about time that we took the steps to ensure that things are done so that fewer children are born into families where the parents are simply not ready or capable at that point of parenting.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB)
My Lords, I am particularly glad that the debate on the probing amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Northbourne did not take place at the end of the Committee session last Wednesday. We are being allowed to take a much deeper look at this important area. Reducing the number of dysfunctional children needs a lot more attention paid to it. On prevention through early intervention, Frank Field and Graham Allen have said it all. Parental responsibilities are enormous, and children need to feel safe and loved, as my noble friend rightly emphasised.
A really good plus is that today families are beginning to share the bringing up of children. Fathers are often much more practically involved in their children’s upbringing. It used to be the case that mother would say, “You wait until your father gets home. He’ll deal with you”. Not any more. Fathers themselves gain great enjoyment from this sort of relationship, and that is very pleasing to see. Young people have to learn about what is needed to bring up today’s children. They have to know about the substantial dangers that children have to face as they grow up. There are new communications techniques and things that can be found on the internet. Also, with fellow children at school, there are things like sexting and sending pictures that no one would want to have shown around. This may be a probing amendment but, my goodness, it is important and should make us all think very carefully about how wide this subject is. I am sure that the Government are fully aware of the importance of this issue.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford (LD)
My Lords, in a personal capacity I very much support this amendment. I have been an officer to the Parents and Families Group for a long time. The noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, is chairman of the group. I fully agree with the remarks made by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, on the importance of family relationships on how children emerge. As the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said, it seems absurd that the only law we have in this country relates to property and not to responsibilities. In all conscience, we are keeping responsibilities on local authorities, on schools and on all kinds of people in this Bill. However, to some extent, those who have prime responsibility for bringing up children should be made to recognise that they have such responsibilities. As the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, said, the Scots have this law. It is a good law and there is a lot to be said for copying their example.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland (CB)
I may be a lone voice here but, much as I agree—who cannot agree?—with the essence of what the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, has said, I do not view legislation as the answer. I am sure that the Minister will say that we have a plethora of legislation. I have worked in this field and I could list it but I will not do so because it would take all the time in the world. The important message that we should take from the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, is how vital it is that we should do what the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, has been saying for so long. We still are not doing well in terms of PSHE and helping young people and children to understand as early as possible what it is to be a parent, to be part of a community and all that you have to do as a citizen. Teens and Toddlers is still going and the programmes through which young people learn at first hand about bringing up children are very important.
However, I believe we live with a myth that modern young men are all the same, which we need to face if we are to deal with some of these issues. The young men I deal with, and I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, deals with, who end up in prison or in serious difficulties certainly are not among those who see themselves as hands-on in childcare. They see themselves as at the football match, the pub or an alternative. Until we are able to get programmes that work directly with such young men, we will not make a difference to them while they are growing up. We should forget the myth that all young men are the same, particularly in understanding the wide range of cultures. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, mentioned young men from certain cultures. There are difficulties in many different groups and we have to be sensitive to all that.
I say to my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss that I do not think that there are many good reasons for men walking out on their families. They do it because they have not been helped to face up to those issues. However, the courts are getting tougher in ensuring that they face up to their responsibilities, which I am pleased about. I know that CAFCASS has been working for a considerable time on trying to make parents face up to what they will do to their children if they leave them.
Although my heart is with what the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, has said, we need to get on with the practical application and the proper support for good social work intervention that will make a difference, rather than have yet more legislation on the statute book.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
Perhaps I may say that I had no intention of saying that it was right for young men—or older men—to walk out on their families. They may be justified in walking out on their spouse or partner, but to leave the children behind, or not to look after them, is unacceptable.
The Earl of Listowel
May I, too, just say that while I agree that all my noble friend spoke of is vital if we are to change the culture, might not legislative change of the kind that he is proposing also be helpful? It may of minor assistance, but given that this is such a grave matter, might it not be worth pursuing?
Lord Ramsbotham (CB)
My Lords, both my heart and my head are with my noble friend Lord Northbourne on this. One of the attractions of his proposal that we should get this into law relates to the very people to whom my noble friend Lady Howarth referred. The proposed amendment would have a lateral benefit for people in custody. Some of them benefit from instruction in parenting, but many do not. If parents’ duties were more codified, it might enable better structure to be given to parenting instruction, which seems to be a crucial part not just of education in custody, but of education in school as well.
Baroness Benjamin (LD)
My Lords, I, too, support this amendment, and I want to make a case for qualified play therapists to be involved in this issue. Play therapists can play an important role with children and their parents, both in schools and in children’s centres, in breaking the cycle of continual problems within families, helping them fully to understand the importance of parenting and family bonding, and about relationships and responsibilities. Where play therapists have been allowed to carry out this type of work, there has been much success in keeping families living happily together. I know this because I am the patron of the British Association of Play Therapists, for which I declare an interest.
For many years I have spoken up about the need for parenting and relationships to be taught in schools. I have seen what this can do. I have even been into prisons, talking to men, in particular, about parenting and the importance of learning to live with their children, to love them and to bond with them. Many of them do not know how to do that and have never received the investment of time and effort in their lives that would make them understand the importance of this parenting and bonding. I hope that the Government will give this serious consideration and look favourably on the amendment.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally) (LD)
My Lords, as I have come to expect with this Bill, the amendments are thoroughly debated and raise some fundamental problems, which I promise to take on board as the Bill progresses.
My response gives me the opportunity to explain a number of measures aimed at promoting the positive involvement of both parents in their children’s lives. In many ways, I am sympathetic to the noble Lord’s intentions in tabling this amendment. When we come to make decisions on this Bill, we will all have to consider deeply whether some of the responsibilities that have been raised in this debate are most sensibly written into this legislation, or elsewhere, or addressed by other means. However, I certainly do not doubt that there is an issue—which the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, has rightly raised—about how we get the required level of parental responsibility. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, referred to the knock-on effects of the problems of single parents, particularly in families without fathers. The noble Baroness, Lady Massey, emphasised the importance of early intervention, while the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, lent her support to the idea that it is sensible to set out those responsibilities in the Bill.
Lord Northbourne
Yes, I shall be delighted. I think that it was 27 years ago that I found myself trying to persuade Cross-Bench Peers to let me have a debate on parenting. As I spoke, I gradually saw their eyes glazing over. None of them had the foggiest idea what I was talking about, so we have at least done better than that today. I am intensely grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in supporting the amendment.
I have one point to make to the Minister. I am not trying to lay this thing down in law as something to punish people for. I am trying to get a clear statement that can act as a guide. For instance, suppose that the Minister were standing up in front of a class of 20 teenage boys and said to them, “One of the things you’ve got to realise is that you mustn’t have sex without a condom”. The boys would say, “Why shouldn’t I? If I have a baby, what does it matter? It’s her job, isn’t it, to make sure that she doesn’t get pregnant?”. That is about the state of many young people’s understanding of this matter, and we should do something to support the teachers who are trying to put across a rather more sensible message. If possible, I suggest a meeting with the Minister and perhaps some of the other noble Lords who have contributed to see whether there is some way in which we can move this matter forward. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Northbourne
“Children’s welfare: family responsibilities (schools)
(1) The governors, sponsors and headteacher of every school which teaches pupils in keystage 3 must prepare and publish each year a full and clear statement of the policy and practice of the school in relation to preparing pupils for the opportunities, duties and responsibilities which they are likely to encounter in adult life including the duties and responsibilities of family formation and of raising children.
(2) Every statement must also publish the qualifications, learning and experiences of teachers who are involved in the delivery of this programme.
(3) This statement must be brought up to date annually.
(4) The Secretary of State may, from time to time, make regulations concerning matters which must be covered by the statement which must include “extra curricular activities”.”
Lord Northbourne
My Lords, in a child’s life there are two periods of rapid brain development. The first is during the first three years of life, while the second is around the time of puberty, in the early teens. That is scientific fact. If we want to reduce the number of dysfunctional families and disadvantaged children in our society, we must do more to prepare young people in their early teens for their future task of forming and bringing up a family. Many young people will learn these skills from their own family, of course, but sadly others will not be so lucky.
Statistics suggest that only 50% of children born today will be living with both parents by the time that they are 16. The statistics show that lone-parent households are 2.5 times more likely to be in poverty than couple families, and today in the UK there are over 3 million growing up in lone-parent families. I have one more statistic: in a recent report, the Centre for Social Justice found that 89% of people agreed that if we wanted to have any hope of mending what they called our “broken society”, family and parenting was where we had to start. The role of schools in developing personal, social and emotional skills must therefore remain very important for many young people today; I think we all agree on that. A great deal of this has been said already, so I shall try to skip through it.
Preparation for family formation and parenthood is not just about knowing the facts of life; it is about recognising that having a child is a serious responsibility; about learning to be the kind of person that you want to be to your child and that your child will need; and about requiring the interpersonal and emotional skills that your child will want in order to create a secure home and for the children to develop in a healthy manner. This is an important point: young people in puberty, or around that time, are keen to find out more about what it means to be an adult, what adult life is about and what the challenges and opportunities of adult life are. It creates an opportunity for schools to help them, because they are in school at that age. In doing so, of course, schools must work with parents. Schools can and often do have a huge influence on a child’s personal and social development, particularly the soft skills, which we seem to have forgotten in our education system but which are so important, both for family formation and for the workplace, and indeed in society as a whole.
Of course the best schools are already doing a wonderful job but, alas, many schools are not doing that job well. Recent Ofsted reports make grim reading. Far too many secondary schools are still treating personal and social development as an unimportant subject, and there is a chronic lack of well trained specialist PSHE and SRE teachers. The Government’s policy today is—rightly, I suspect—to give more freedom to schools to develop their own curriculums. Outside the core curriculum, the Government will not prescribe a school’s curriculum. This puts a lot more responsibility on the schools themselves to get it right. In an area of learning as sensitive and important as PSHE, it is essential that parents, Parliament and the wider public should be able to know what each school is doing, what their policies are and whether they are actively pursuing those policies.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees
I will put the question and then we will adjourn for 10 minutes. We will return at 4.27 pm.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees
I think that we will make a start. I had just put the question, the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, having moved his amendment.
Lord Northbourne
Although perhaps I did not make it clear when I was speaking, it is in a way obvious that my two amendments have pretty much the same objective. I took them separately because they have two completely different ways of approaching the problem, the second of which I believe is more exciting.
Baroness Massey of Darwen
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, for tabling this exciting amendment. Amendment 231 in my name asks all schools to ensure that children are educated and protected through school policies, pastoral care, linking with outside agencies and the curriculum. It goes wider than that in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, but is of a similar tone.
The reason for my amendment and, I think, for the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, is that pupils, teachers, parents and governors need clarity about what policy and practice is in a school. Otherwise, how can they be clear about what it is and how do they know how to operate? How do children know how to operate? For example, as regards behavioural policy in a primary school, pupils know how to behave because it is in the policy. Policy and practice should give clarity and security.
We have talked about the duties and responsibilities of raising children, and the importance of enabling young people, in an ideal situation, to learn about parenting long before they become parents, or perhaps later if they are in difficulties such as those that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, mentioned relating to the criminal justice system. I remember seeing a young man in jail being taught how to read to a four year-old with all the interaction that is necessary. It is never too late but it is preferable for that to happen earlier.
However, I take issue with the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, in two instances. First, education about social and emotional development and responsibilities should happen before and after key stage 3. For a start, it should come from parents to children but, when talking about schools, it should happen from a young age through to when the child leaves. Schools should develop a spiral of curriculum and pastoral care which matches the age and stage of a child’s development. It should not be just at a particular age, and I do not think that it is. The issue is about a child’s right to an education.
On the other issue, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, talked about the importance of teacher training. That is right but it is not always teachers who deliver personal, social and emotional education. I have seen many excellent school nurses giving sessions in the classroom to encourage pupils to think about issues around their own health. I have seen first-aiders talk about issues around helping others to be safe. I have even seen a teenage parent come into a class to talk about the experience of having a baby at a young age, which was a quite dramatic experience for the pupils concerned. Therefore, I say yes to all this about personal and social health education, and yes to policies and practice in schools being well advertised. However, I should like to look at just those two issues again with the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne.
Lord Ramsbotham
I, too, lend my support to the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, and will link what I am going to say to my comments on Amendment 56. I have a grandson at a secondary school in Gloucestershire and, like the noble Lord, I was fascinated to see the material with which he and his parents were provided. Frankly, it was all about today and not about tomorrow. Although the quality is fairly good, I am quite certain that it could be improved.
Clause 70, later in this Bill, refers to the fact that education, health and care plans are allegedly to be denied to those being held in detention. Last week I had a meeting with two Ministers in the Department for Education who told me what progress has been made. What is most promising is that young offender institutions are to be classed as mainstream schools as far as the provision of the Bill is concerned. In welcoming the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, that this guidance should be provided for schools, I should mention that young offender institutions should be included, absolutely for the reasons set out by the noble Baroness, Lady Massey. Above all, we must not exclude people in detention from learning to look after their children.
Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)
My Lords, I rise briefly to underline the important point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, and in so doing I should declare an interest as vice-president of the charity Relate. I am very supportive indeed of schools playing a full role in preparing children for all aspects of life, and those must include the importance of personal relationships, family relationships and parenting responsibilities. From my experience of running an organisation that helped to deliver relationship education in a large number of schools, as the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, said, it is not always teachers who do the teaching in the classroom. I know of many schools that ask experts in relationship matters to come in from outside because they are trained to do this work. I recall seeing a report from Ofsted which suggested that trained relationship practitioners are more confident and better able to deal with some aspects of relationship education, particularly the more intimate and sexual issues. If teachers have not had the appropriate training, teachers can feel a little less than confident about it. I wanted just to underline that important point.
Baroness Hughes of Stretford
My Lords, I, too, support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, and I congratulate him on such a novel and neat proposal. I will not delay the Committee because I suspect that we will have a very full debate on PSHE and the role that schools can play in developing these aspects of children’s well-being. Indeed, the noble Lord has himself already pointed that out. However, Amendment 57 fits closely with the concerns we have on this side about better preparing children and young people for the challenges of life, and about maximising their potential academic success through extracurricular activities to develop their confidence, self-esteem, leadership skills and so on. Those are actually two sides of the same coin.
So-called “soft skills”, which in my view is a rather derogatory term because we are talking about non-cognitive development here, are very important and have been shown to be extremely valuable not only to meet challenges better, but also to maximise their potential academically. Why else would some of our best fee-paying schools have extensive programmes of such activities? They have them because they are aiming to produce rounded individuals by developing these important aspects of character and resilience. It is a great pity that the Government have taken away much of the funding that schools had been provided with for extended activities, as well as reducing the emphasis being placed by the department and the current Secretary of State on these and other extracurricular work. As the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, said, Ofsted has highlighted the huge variation in provision, with much of it being of very poor quality.
The reason that this amendment is so novel and neat is that it is not prescriptive. It simply asks schools to discuss and debate these issues, and to review them every year. That will involve a conversation with parents and with the pupils themselves. They should then publish what they intend to provide. It will not cost schools any money to do that, but it will put this issue on the agenda and make it more transparent for parents and pupils alike. I am therefore very happy to support the amendment.
Baroness Benjamin
My Lords, I support this amendment. There is something close to my heart that the noble Lord also supports. Twenty years ago my production company tried to get a schools programme on parenting commissioned. I was told that could not happen because it was not part of the national curriculum. Thankfully it now is. Some schools are attempting to address this important issue. Parenting is not about sex education, but about teaching young people about life skills, relationships, respect for one another, responsibilities, basic money matters, social policies and solving domestic problems. That applies to everybody’s family life, no matter what their background is. All schools should promote parental responsibility and make it an essential part of delivering holistic education to all our children. That is why I support this amendment.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland
I rise very briefly to support this amendment, and to ask for it to be looked at in a broader context of social policy. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, talked of young men in prison. I want to give one example—something I heard last week—which relates to how young people can learn. I was told of a hostel for young women with their babies that was closed, probably for financial reasons. The young women and their babies were dispersed. Six of them were at university, and no consideration was given to this fact, to the support they received at the hostel or to what would happen to them in future. If we are thinking about how we can ensure that each generation gets the support they need, that story is a good example of how broader policy could make a difference.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, for the reasons already given, which I will not repeat, I, too, support this amendment.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, I was intending to support Amendment 57 when we spoke earlier on Amendment 56. However, it is clearly essential that governors, sponsors, head teachers—those responsible for what goes on in the school—are alert to what is set out here. The point I make about this—others have made it too —is that there are a lot of amendments dotted all over this paper referring to different aspects of what we are discussing, so we are going to come back to this again and again. The ear-bashing and encouragement that the Minister has had will help to indicate the right way of making these important issues completely plain. It is crucial that what the school stands for is made clear to the pupils. I could not be more supportive of the importance of getting that principle across.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I again thank all contributors to this debate. As the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, said, we will return to some of the issues in different guises during the passage of the Bill. That is partly what Committee stage is for: to look at these issues and see where we can clean up the Bill.
Since 1998, all schools have been required to provide a balanced and broadly based curriculum which prepares pupils for the opportunities, responsibilities and experiences of later life. This includes academy schools by virtue of Section 1A of the Academies Act 2010, which is reflected in their funding agreements.
Baroness Massey of Darwen
I am sorry to interrupt but is the Minister aware that the recent Ofsted report on personal, social and health education indicates that many schools are not carrying out their duties in that regard?
Lord McNally
Yes, I am aware of that. Our PSHE review concluded in March 2013 and found that the existing guidance offers a sound framework for sex and relationship education in schools. Sex and relationship education is a sensitive area in which expert organisations and professionals have an essential role to play, but this does not require the Government to revise the existing guidance. However, I agree with the noble Baroness that there are problems from school to school and this is an issue that we must continue to pursue. As the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, said in the previous debate and on other occasions, the media do not always give the most constructive and positive support for this aspect of education.
As I say, the guidance makes clear that all SRE should be age appropriate and that schools should ensure that young people,
“develop positive values and a moral framework that will guide their decisions, judgements and behaviour”.
In particular, paragraph 1.18 states that secondary schools should, among other issues, teach about,
“relationships, love and care and the responsibilities of parenthood as well as sex”,
and,
“taking on of responsibility and the consequences of one’s actions in relation to sexual activity and parenthood”.
The point that the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, made is also relevant in relation to writing things into legislation. There is a gap—you can write the most careful guidance, but how it is practised and carried out at the sharp end is another task, and one that we should address.
It is vital that schools prepare young people for later life, and especially the responsibilities of parenthood. However, the Government strongly believe that teachers need flexibility to use their professional judgment to decide when and how to provide SRE in their particular local circumstances, and to do so in an appropriate manner. We believe that it would be inappropriate to introduce a requirement for pupils in key stage 3, including those as young as 11, to be taught about parenting and sexual relationships. Teachers should retain discretion about whether to do so, while having regard to the Secretary of State’s guidance. Publishing the information set out in the current school information regulations is the best way for parents to have access to information; teachers should be given more freedoms, not fewer, to decide the contents of the school curriculum and how it is taught.
I hope that I have covered most of noble Lords’ concerns in that reply. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, talked about the need for this kind of education in young offender institutions. I agree that it is absolutely essential that it should be provided there. The noble Baronesses, Lady Tyler and Lady Massey, referred to the use of outside experts. Again, schools are free to use outside experts, and some to very good effect. But the head teacher should have final responsibility for which outside experts are brought in, and that is important. The noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, made the valid point that it is about teaching wider life skills and relationships. But this is not something that schools alone should do. The media, particularly television, have a responsibility. I sometimes sit with my daughter watching very funny sitcoms, whose messages about sexual relationships are easy, to put it mildly. I often say to her, “That’s comedy—that ain’t reality”. I think that by the time they reached 40 and called it a day, all the members of “Friends” had slept with each other several times—but they all lived happily ever after. Perhaps that is one of the dangers of that kind of media.
I cannot really comment on the hostel closure mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, without knowing all the facts, but I fully endorse what she said about making sure that there is a joined-up policy.
As with the previous debate, I have been impressed by the breadth of opinion in support of what the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, has done.
As I said, the Government are cautious about trying to write piety into legislation rather than ensuring that what is happening on the ground is effective, but we will be taking this further as the Bill progresses. In response to what the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, said at the end of the previous debate, if he and a number of colleagues would like to meet me separately to discuss these issues between now and Report, I would be glad to do so. In the mean time, I hope that he will withdraw the amendment.
Lord Northbourne
I am most grateful to the Minister and his advisers for all that information, particularly because most of it supports my amendment. My amendment is not about dictating what schools should teach; it is simply saying, “You decide what you should teach but then you must report on what that is and allow an inspection to see whether you are actually doing it”. Whether some schools will then have to have a rap over the knuckles is a second stage; I certainly have not suggested that.
I suggest that every noble Lord here does what I did, which is to take the names of six secondary schools in their neighbourhood and get the Library to find out what they say in their curricula. I think your Lordships will find, as I did, that five out of six of them either have nothing at all or are absolute rubbish. It is no good prescribing what schools should do. We have to encourage them and make them declare what they are doing, which may be a source of embarrassment to them if they are not doing frightfully well. A great many are not doing frightfully well and Ofsted absolutely confirms that. On that note, I am certainly going to bring this amendment back in some form, but for the time being I beg leave to withdraw it.
“(a) with whom a child is to—(i) live,(ii) spend time, or(iii) otherwise have contact; and(b) when, with any person, a child is to—(i) live,(ii) spend time, or(iii) otherwise have contact.”
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, on a slightly different subject, Amendments 58 and 59 deal with child arrangements orders and their potential impact internationally.
We very much welcome the basic intent of Clause 12 to move away from terminology which implies that there are winners or losers in disputes concerning children, by introducing new child arrangements orders. However, we are concerned that the move away from one parent having custody may create additional difficulty in retrieving children from other jurisdictions internationally. Noble Lords will know that this can already be a legal minefield and a source of considerable distress, which is why we have tabled the amendments.
These amendments aim to make the contents of the new child arrangements orders clearer, and set out more explicitly that the person with whom the child is to live has rights of custody for the purposes of the Hague convention and other international family law treaties. The amendments are similar to those we tabled in the Commons, and emanate from concerns expressed by, among others, the Justice Select Committee, the Family Law Bar Association and the Children’s Commissioner for England.
The key issue here is in relation to rights of custody, which are an important concept in international law, in particular the Hague convention, and apply particularly to child kidnapping. When the Justice Select Committee considered this issue, it said:
“There are also concerns amongst our witnesses that the draft clause could cause confusion and delay in cross-jurisdiction cases … It is important that CAOs do not change how international law relating to children operates. A central concept in the relevant Hague … and EU legislation … is that of ‘rights of custody’”.
It went on to say:
“There is however a risk that the change in terms … may be hard to interpret in other jurisdictions”.
This issue was raised at Second Reading and the Minister subsequently wrote to say:
“For international understanding, it is the content of the order that is important, not its name. A child arrangements order should make clear with whom a child is to live, and this will enable a state to determine whether a person has rights of custody in a child abduction case”.
I am grateful to the Minister for trying to address that point. However, his response misses the point that by changing the name and the terminology we risk inadvertently making difficult international custody battles even more fraught.
While we cannot claim that our amendments are a panacea, and it may well be that the amendments tabled by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, are clearer in law, we believe they go some way to providing further legal clarification that will help parents and overseas jurisdictions to understand our intent in the law. Since the Justice Committee and others continue to be concerned, I hope the Minister will feel able to take these amendments away and to reconsider the Government’s opposition to what is meant to be a simple and helpful set of changes.
We also support the amendment proposed by the Government which deals with some of the consequential impacts of child arrangements orders on the Children Act 1989.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, I entirely support what lies behind what the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, has said. Amendments 58 and 59 may go most of the way. Amendment 60, to which I speak, was proposed by the Bar, which is why I have put it forward. It is important that the Government understand that there are difficulties. The Child Abduction and Custody Act 1985 incorporates the Hague convention of 1980. I have spent a great amount of time as a High Court judge and in the Court of Appeal on the Hague convention. Under Article 5,
“‘rights of custody’ shall include rights relating to the care of … the child and, in particular, the right to determine the child’s place of residence”.
I congratulate the Government on their bravery as regards arrangements. Having tried cases with mothers and fathers, I do not believe that the proposal will work any better than custody and access or residence and contact. It is not the words but what happens to the child who gets one or other parent, or sometimes both parents, absolutely up in arms.
The difficulty is that the decision under the Hague convention is not made in England if an English child has been abducted. There has been a particular decision, with which I will not bore the House, except to say that where the applicant’s right of custody is an issue the question should not be determined by the English court unless it is unavoidable. It is a matter for the court where the child is taken to, where the other parent goes to that court through the arrangements in this country and says that this parent has lost the child because the child, in respect of which he or she has a right of custody, has been removed from this jurisdiction. The court of the jurisdiction where the child is found makes the decision on whether the right of custody has been breached.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, has said, these are complicated cases. It is very often difficult in some countries to get that country to accept that nationals of that country were resident in this country. Therefore, while they may have been in Germany, they may not particularly want to send their children back although they had been resident here. Guatemala is a country that I particularly have in mind. Under the Hague convention, they should come back but if there is some uneasiness about what is meant by “arrangements”, it is a marvellous opportunity for the foreign court to say, “We are not satisfied on rights of custody, so we will keep the child here”. That is exactly what the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and my amendments are intended to deal with.
I do not mind whether the amendment drafted for me by the Bar or any other amendment is preferable. I would like to see an interpretation of the words “rights of custody”. It should be stated that arrangements made in respect of either parent equal—but put, obviously, in more legalistic language—a right of custody. I hope that the Government will accept that both the noble Baroness and I have got a really important, highly technical point that may have an adverse, practical effect on English and Welsh children being taken unlawfully out of the jurisdiction.
Lord McNally
If there is anything likely to chill the marrow of a non-lawyer Minister, it is the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, saying that the amendment that she is proposing is highly technical and important. I have no doubt about that and will try to deal with it with due thoroughness, well aware that the noble and learned Baroness is far more well read in the Hague convention than me.
I am advised that the Hague convention gives a wide interpretation. It is intended to predict all the ways in which custody of a child can be exercised. It is not just orders concerning residence that count; it is also rights arising from the operation of law and agreements between parents which have legal effect under our law. The child arrangements order will make it clear that other jurisdictions will consider where a child lives and has contact as evidence in determining whether an individual has rights of custody.
I welcome the support expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, for the government amendment, which is purely consequential. Schedule 1 to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 includes a reference to contact and residence orders. The amendment simply updates that to refer instead to child arrangements orders.
The remaining amendments relate to the recognition of the child arrangements order at international level. I agree with noble Lords that we must ensure that the order is recognised and enforced at international level in the same way as existing contact and residence orders. I welcome the thought which has been given to this issue.
The introduction of the child arrangements order stems from a recommendation of the family justice review. It seeks to move away from language which reinforces the perception that one parent is more important than the other. In terms of content, the court will, as now, be able to set out clearly in an order the person or persons with whom a child lives, spends time or has other types of contact, and when.
While the amendments which have been tabled do not change the scope of the child arrangements order, Amendment 58 would increases the focus on its distinct elements. In doing so, it risks undermining one of the key aims of the order, which is to shift the focus away from parents’ perceived rights on to the rights and needs of the child.
Amendments 59 and 60 relate more explicitly to the recognition of the order under the 1980 Hague convention. “Rights of custody” are a key concept under the convention and include rights relating to the care of a child, in particular the right to determine a child’s place of residence.
In considering whether there has been an unlawful removal for the purposes of the convention, a court will first establish what rights the applicant had under the domestic law of the state in which the child was habitually resident. What matters is what rights are recognised by that law, not how those rights are characterised.
The specific content of relevant decisions and orders, such as child arrangements orders that specify with whom a child is to live, will provide evidence as to the rights that a person has in respect of a child. However, the question as to whether those rights are properly characterised as “rights of custody” is a matter of international law. The phrase “rights of custody” is not confined to any national meaning, and it would not be appropriate to try to dictate the meaning of an international concept such as this in our law. I assure the Committee that we will be making full use of existing international groups and channels to raise awareness of the new order and ensure that it is properly understood. For that reason, I urge noble Lords to accept the Government’s amendment.
I say again that what I say here is not plucked out of the air; it is the result of considerable thought and advice from government lawyers and is on the basis of advice from the Norgrove studies. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, suggested that we might possibly be causing confusion by what we are doing. I suggest that we meet between now and Report—I am getting a long list of engagements now, but it is important to get this right—and discuss this. If the Government’s expert lawyers persuade me that noble Lords are wrong, then on Report I shall try to persuade the House that they are wrong. However, if noble Lords convince them that there is confusion here, that is the last thing that the Government want out of this legislation. In that spirit, I hope that the noble Baroness will agree to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
I do not believe that I have the right now to withdraw my amendment because it was grouped with the earlier amendment. I make one point: it is not the sophisticated countries that have signed the Hague convention about which I am concerned but the unsophisticated countries, some of which are in South America, the Far East, parts of the Indian subcontinent and the Middle East. Those are countries where it may not be as easy to explain to them what “arrangements” means as it would be to France or Germany.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
I have to say I was beginning to feel very disappointed in the Minister’s response until he said that maybe we could meet—and I am very happy to take up his offer—because I felt that he was not really addressing the concerns that have been raised. They are not just the concerns of non-lawyers like myself or my colleagues; they are the concerns of some fairly major players in this sector including, as I said, the Family Law Bar Association and the Children’s Commission for England, while obviously the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, is an expert in her own right. This is not a political point but a practical one: it is about what is in the best interests of children and what can best protect them in international custody disputes. As I understand it, “rights of custody” has a particular resonance and respect around the world, and I am not sure that the new phraseology that we are putting in its place does that. I still need to be persuaded of all that, but maybe we can do that in a meeting with the Minister. I will happily take up his offer to explore it further in that context. I therefore beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord McNally
“Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 (c. 10)70 In paragraph 13(1)(c) of Schedule 1 to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 (civil legal services: orders mentioned in section 8(1) of the Children Act 1989) for “residence, contact” substitute “child arrangements orders”.”
The Earl of Listowel
I apologise for asking for this clause stand part debate quite late in the day, without giving noble Lords more notice, and also for delaying the proceedings of the Grand Committee. But I feel that this is a very important clause on the “Control of expert evidence, and of assessments, in children proceedings”. The matter of expert witnesses is vital to the purpose of this Bill, which is child welfare. We must have a good pool of expert witnesses to advise courts in these complicated matters.
I called for this debate because I attended a briefing by Dr Julia Brophy, from the University of Oxford, two or three months ago, in which she presented her research into expert evidence produced by independent social workers. She interviewed 32 judges on their experience of expert reports from these independent social workers and found that judges valued these reports, that the expert witnesses were well known by courts, and that the social workers were very experienced. She found that they made a positive difference to the outcomes of their decision-making.
Phil King, joint founder-director of the Confederation of Independent Social Work Agencies, emailed me today on a report from a social worker detailing how a mother and her seven month-old baby were doing extremely well in the community. The CISWA had provided a report in this case. The mother had a very poor history of parenting, with her previous children placed for adoption. The local authority planned for adoption for this particular baby; however, the judge wanted an assessment to see whether the mother’s plea that she had changed had any foundation. The assessment indicated that there had been change, and there was a good prognosis. Without the independent social worker expert report, that child would now have been adopted. One has only to speak to a mother who is restricted to seeing her 12 month-old or 14 month-old infant twice a week and to see the anguish that that mother experiences to realise that we have to be timely in our decisions but also very well informed.
Local authorities have responded to the recommendation in the 2011 Family Justice Review from David Norgrove, which identified a,
“trend towards an increasing and, we believe, unjustified use of expert witness reports, with consequent delay for children”.
In particular, according to the report, independent social workers,
“should be employed only exceptionally”.
Following this, CAFCASS chief executive, Anthony Douglas, said:
“Cafcass research shows that the family justice system is responding to the recommendations made by the Family Justice Review, even before legislation has been put in place. At a time where scarce resources must be directed to the right areas, we agree with the Family Justice Board that the use of expert witnesses should be limited to cases in which they are absolutely necessary”.
He goes on to say:
“Cafcass guardians have found the right expert can offer unique insight and value about into a child’s needs. In such cases, Cafcass guardians said that the evidence offered by expert witnesses has increased the speed of proceedings”.
Just as an aside, there is another debate about the remuneration of expert witnesses in family courts. It seems to me a particular matter of concern that the remuneration for independent social workers is only £30 an hour, which does not fit with the quality of the reporting that they do and their many years of experience. We mentioned in earlier debates the necessity of raising the status of social work, and it seems to work against that. So I hope that the Minister, in his discussions with the relevant agency—I think it is the Law Commission—about remuneration in the family courts for expert witnesses, may think to ask whether this is a realistic rate for professionals, and whether it is a way in which to retain this high-quality pool of professionals who are so necessary to those decisions.
I refer—I apologise for taking so long, I am nearly finished—to the evaluation of senior judges’ views of expert opinion from independent social workers which is entitled: Neither Fear Nor Favour, Affection or Ill Will: Modernisation of care proceedings and the use and value of independent social work expertise to senior judges, by Dr. Julia Brophy of Oxford University. She concludes that,
“to enable courts to meet timescales, therefore, guidance will need to be sufficiently flexible to recognise”—
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall)
I beg the noble Earl’s pardon for interrupting, but the Division bell is ringing. The Committee will reconvene in 10 minutes, at 5.30 pm.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, the conclusions arising from the important research of Dr Julia Brophy are:
“(a) The needs of courts for skilled and experienced practitioners able to produce analytical, evidence based, forensically driven reports which meet the court’s timescale required, and … (b) The realities of resources limitations for some local authorities … In this context, utilising the skills and expertise of independent social workers both pre and within proceedings is likely to remain necessary if courts are to meet current challenges and move forward with appropriate speed and confidence and to do so in a manner which reflects a court practice which is without fear or favour”.
I want to ask the Minister whether the regulations now meet the recommendations made by Dr Brophy and, if not, what amendments he may be considering. Perhaps I may apologise once more to the Minister and the Committee for giving short notice of this debate. If the Minister would prefer to write to me, I will quite understand.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
Since this issue has been raised, I am going to jump on the bandwagon just to say that very difficult cases are tried by designated and senior judges and family judges of the High Court where expert evidence is absolutely crucial. I have to say that I have tried cases where I have ended up with 11 expert witnesses on shaken babies with subdural haematomas and so on, asking whether it was the parents or a parent, or whether it was an accident. These are extremely difficult cases. We were greatly assisted by CAFCASS and sometimes assisted by social workers, but even in these difficult cases, the social workers came and went. In some cases there was no consistent social worker to put in a consistent, high-quality report from their point of view. Again and again, High Court and senior circuit judges have asked for an independent social worker, which the local authority has been only too grateful to agree to. That is because the authority knows that in these difficult cases it has not actually been able to do the job itself.
In an ideal world, of course, independent social workers are not needed, but we live in a far from ideal world with children at extraordinary risk of physical injury as well as sexual injury. Here it is physical injury with which I am concerned. Again, as the noble Earl has just said, we need the doctors. I am not sure what the doctors are likely to be paid, but from the point of view of a senior consultant, it is derisory. There is a limit to pro bono, particularly if a doctor has to be in court for a day or two days. Quite simply, these really difficult cases will not be properly tried if they do not have the right experts.
Norgrove was absolutely right to want to cut it down. In the majority of cases it would be quite wrong to go in for the luxury of lots and lots of experts. I am concerned only about the small minority of extremely difficult cases, where the current system is not going to be just to the child, whose welfare, ultimately, is paramount.
Baroness Tyler of Enfield
My Lords, it is terribly important that this debate is kept in perspective. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, has done that very well, making it clear that we are talking about a very small number of cases, involving very difficult issues, where of course an expert’s advice will be very helpful.
More broadly, I very much support the thrust of what David Norgrove said in the report of the family justice review and it is really important that we are seen to be limiting expert evidence to what is really necessary to decide, so that the judges narrow it down to the key issues where we need that expert advice and it does not add to yet more reports, with all of that adding to delay.
The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, quoted Anthony Douglas, the chief executive of CAFCASS. I declare an interest as chair of CAFCASS. In the intervening period I have had the opportunity to have a quick word with Anthony Douglas and the context in which he made those remarks is one in which we have done a lot of work to ensure that both local authority social workers and CAFCASS guardians are working up to the absolute limit of their professional knowledge and capacity, and that you need an expert report only in that very small number of cases which take them beyond their limits.
I have spoken recently to groups of CAFCASS practitioners who tell me that they now feel empowered and have renewed confidence because in the majority of cases their expert advice, analytical skills and the assessment that they can offer to the courts are being accepted as expert social work opinion and advice. Sometimes recently they have felt that their professionalism has been questioned, which is a danger when we have too many of these expert reports. So I hope that we can conduct this debate with a sense of perspective and balance, while understanding that we are talking about a small number of cases where we need those expert reports to deal with very specific issues.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, have put this very precisely. I was the chair of CAFCASS when the problem significantly arose and began the work to tackle the issue, together with the chief executive and the board. The real issue was the length of time that children were waiting for decisions in their cases, and every day for a child is vital. Experts were called to verify what another expert was saying or to give another opinion, and there has been a great improvement in the time taken to reach a decision in these cases since we have streamlined that.
I declare an interest as vice-president of the Lucy Faithfull Foundation, which prepares extremely complex expert witness reports in cases of very serious child sexual abuse. I think the Minister is well aware of its work. In those cases there have been real difficulties in getting the right expert to the right place because, as the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, mentioned, local authorities themselves have called the experts in to add to the decision.
All I want to say in this debate is: let us keep the focus on the child and make decisions as quickly as possible, but in complex cases let us make sure that those decisions are based on the right information.
Lord McNally
My Lords, perhaps I should make it clear from the start to the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, that we will resist this stand part Motion, and I am sure that he will withdraw it at the appropriate time. We want this change in the Bill. Let me be clear: experts play a vital role in many care proceedings. Their evidence can be necessary to assist the court in resolving a case justly and in a child’s best interests. It is the Government’s intention to ensure that where the court considers that expert evidence is necessary to assist it to resolve the proceedings justly, including evidence provided by independent social workers, that evidence should be used.
The reason for the measures in Clause 13 is simple: the family justice review found that, too often, expert reports were being commissioned in care proceedings when they added little real value to the decision-making process and contributed to delays. In many cases, expert evidence was provided where the evidence could be obtained from a party already involved in the proceedings. The Government believe that most social care evidence in cases could and should be supplied by local authorities and CAFCASS guardians, and I know that that view is strongly held by the present president of the Family Division, Sir James Munby. However, where a judge considers that it is necessary to have expert evidence, including an independent social work report, to resolve the proceedings justly, then that evidence will still be permitted.
We know that improvements to social work practice will be needed to deliver these changes. That is why the Children’s Improvement Board, together with Research in Practice, delivered a series of regional family justice training seminars to local authorities to highlight good practice in this area and how it may be replicated. In addition, CIB and RiP also recently ran a series of “train the trainer” workshops aimed at those responsible for training within local authorities. The workshops focused on the practical skills that social workers need to progress cases without delay. We have also funded new research distillations to assist social workers when assessing children on the edge of care, and continue to work with the College of Social Work to ensure that social workers receive training in the specific competencies required.
With regard to legal aid fees, which the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, raised, the hourly rate for independent social workers was introduced in May 2011 following consultation. As the response to that consultation recognised, independent social workers undertake a variety of work for different organisations but the qualifications and experience of those undertaking that work, plus similarities in the work undertaken, meant that it was not considered an effective use of public money for the Legal Services Commission, as it was then, to pay higher rates than those payable by CAFCASS for similar services.
The Government have met organisations representing independent social workers on several occasions, but we have no evidence to suggest that the majority of work undertaken by this group should attract a higher rate than is paid to other social workers. However, where independent social workers provide services that are significantly different from those normally expected of other social workers, significantly higher rates are payable—for example, when acting as an expert risk assessor in cases where there is a substantiated relevant criminal allegation in the immediate background of the case, or where a finding of sexual abuse relevant to the case has been made by a court and the report is specifically required to address this risk.
As I have said, I believe that what we are doing meets the requirements that Dr Brophy set out, as the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, asked me. We understand the concerns that expert witnesses should be used when necessary, and I hope that I made it clear that that will continue to be the case. However, when the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, tells me that in one of her cases she had 11 expert witnesses, that almost makes me think that that is what we are facing, and indeed what Norgrove identified. As I said before to the noble Earl, although I take note of what he has said, this is something that I cannot offer a meeting on because we will continue to resist.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. I am most grateful to the Minister for his reassuring response concerning the additional training for social workers to enable them to produce the right reports without additional expert support.
I seem to remember it being put to me in the past that the involvement of expert witnesses has been particularly difficult for family courts dealing with these very complex cases. There has been a sort of arms race, with one side appointing an expert witness, then another side appointing an expert witness, and the judges—those making decisions—have sometimes lacked the confidence to say, “No, we do not need so many reports”. What the Government are doing now under Lord Justice Ryder, which will also be helpful, is the bringing together of the family courts into one place, with opportunities for greater training and support for those who make these difficult decisions, and therefore less risk of this sort of arms race of expert witnesses.
As my noble friend Lady Howarth has said, it is crucial that these decisions are timely, and what is encouraging about Dr Brophy’s report is that these expert witness reports have been found to increase the speed at which decisions are made. In the past the concern has been that they have delayed decisions, but the judges are saying that they can make speedier decisions because they have the expert information that they need. Therefore I am grateful for the Minister’s reassurance on these points, and I do not think I have to say anything more.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, Amendments 62 and 63 concern the issue of time limits for court proceedings. We very much welcome the Government’s aim of reducing delays in care proceedings as set out in the clause. As we have discussed in the past, there have been unjustifiable delays, which have had serious consequences for the welfare of the children involved. We are pleased that, in anticipation of the new timescales, court proceedings are already being completed over a shorter period. However, we believe that in trying to set absolute time limits the Government may be going too far and putting at risk the best possible outcome for the child. Our amendments attempt to redress that balance by reasserting a focus on the best interests of the child.
We have a major concern that as it currently stands, Clause 14 would curtail effective interventions with children and their families that last longer than 26 weeks. We need to differentiate clearly between delay caused by unacceptable process issues on the one hand and time extensions which really are in the best interests of the child on the other. Our amendments would allow longer timescales, specifically to meet the interests of the child. They would also enable the court to set out a timetable from the outset of proceedings rather than continually having to add eight-week extensions. This would give practitioners more clarity about how long they have to work with the child before a court decision is made.
We agree that delay in decision-making can have an adverse effect on children. However, there is a real danger that limiting the proceedings to 26 weeks would result in court decisions being made to meet the deadline, rather than to secure the best outcome for each child. We have to acknowledge that, in practice, some assessments and intervention programmes take longer than others; for example, where parents are seeking treatment for substance misuse. Care proceedings must enable opportunities for meaningful change in parental behaviour and those working with the family need to know that they will have the time to enable a successful intervention to take place. The NSPCC’s infant and family team model is a good example of such interventions, which can and often do require longer than 26 weeks but have shown improved outcomes for both the children and the adults involved.
We believe that there are a range of circumstances where a period longer than 26 weeks may be essential for the child’s needs to be addressed, including to allow a robust support package to be developed in special guardianship cases. This may include: support for difficult contact arrangements; preventing significant financial hardship; or where the proceedings work with the family has not been done or the situation has changed at the last minute, such that a family member needs to be considered late in the day. We are already hearing anecdotes of family members being denied an assessment once the case is in court. Parents who are consistently demonstrating to the Family Drug and Alcohol Court’s intensive support team that they are turning their life around need sufficient time to prove to the court that they can sustain such an improvement. A longer period may also be needed when potentially suitable family carers live abroad. In the case of older children, an emphasis on a fast timescale may be counterproductive, and particular care, sensitivity and dialogue will be necessary to allow the child’s long-term welfare needs to be met.
This list is not exhaustive but gives an illustration of cases where a delay could well be in the child’s interest. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McNally, for addressing these concerns in his recent letter. He explained that a number of pilots are taking place and that in due course the Family Procedure Rule Committee will consider whether to make court rules on these issues. However, we do not feel that this goes far enough. There are important issues here affecting the welfare of children at stake. The FPRC is under no obligation to make rules on time limits, and in any case we will not have had sight of the rules being made; meanwhile, we believe that a commitment to greater flexibility in the application of these rules is essential. Without taking away any of the good intent of the clause, which attempts to speed up court processes, we believe that our amendments, which would give the courts greater flexibility to extend deadlines where it is explicitly in the interest of the child, strike the right balance. We hope that noble Lords will support this position.
Baroness Benjamin
My Lords, I have put my name down to this amendment because the NSPCC has raised huge concerns with me. It feels that the implementation of a 26-week time limit could make the operation of evidence-based interventions that take longer than the specified time limit more difficult; for example, in situations where parents are seeking treatment for substance misuse or domestic violence or when family members come forward late in care proceedings when the real risk of a child being taken into care becomes apparent. The NSPCC believes that we must ensure there is sufficient time for the appropriate assessments to take place.
The noble Baroness has already mentioned programmes such as the NSPCC’s infant and family team. That programme is significant as it informs professionals and helps courts decide whether maltreated children can be reunited with their birth family or should be placed for adoption with their foster family. It also assists parents in addressing the problems that they might have had as children. However, this important and emotional work requires between 12 and 15 months before a final recommendation is made. Although the Bill provides for eight-week extensions, continually adding these on to the six months causes a large amount of uncertainty for parents whose own early traumatic experiences are being explored to help them reflect on the origins of their present difficulties, and ultimately may have an adverse effect, not to mention increased administration pressure.
When I was told the following story of a young mother, it showed me just how important the NSPCC’s infant and family team can be to the well-being and happy outcome of a family in difficulty. Two years ago, Kesha’s eight children, aged between one and 13, were removed from her on the grounds of neglect. The children were split among different foster carers and she saw them for only an hour every other week. Kesha says:
“When I first began working with the Infant Team I had a bad attitude, but soon, I loved it. We had parenting sessions that really helped me, and I watched videos of parents and kids which helped me understand my kids’ needs more and how to meet them and build a sense of security so they know they can come to me. The Infant Team also asked me about when I was young. It felt like my mum leaving at a young age meant I couldn’t trust people. They helped me to be myself more and start trusting people, and I began to open up to my kids more, and my relationships with them got better. The Infant Team want you to get your kids back. I didn't want my children to have to grow up without their mum like I did. I love them too much. I fought hard to get them back”.
It took Kesha a year and a half to get her children back, but by working hard and with the right support, they have been successfully reunited.
The NSPCC and others agree that there are lots of cases that need to be speeded up, but that should not be done at the expense of limiting interventions that could be effective in dealing with family problems, so that children can stay at home when it has been proved to be safe for their well-being. These cases cannot be forced into a prescribed timeframe, as the NSPCC believes that this could be damaging. It is seeking commitments as to how the Government will address this potentially negative impact and ensure that cases are not shoehorned into a structure that will not be beneficial. There needs be more flexibility and I believe that this, in turn, will not undermine the policy intention. The amendment will provide greater clarity about the length of care proceedings when longer timescales are needed to meet the needs of the child. I know that that is what all noble Lords here ultimately want.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, I regret to say to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, that I do not agree with her amendment. I have discussed this with the President of the Family Division and with Lord Justice Ryder, who has been leading the modernisation of the family courts over a number of years—even when I was there, which is now eight years ago. This is one of the major planks of the Norgrove report. The president and Lord Justice Ryder, together with other judges, are extremely concerned about the idea that the 26-week limit should be breached. They see it as an opening for some judges simply to take longer. Certainly until very recently, we know that decisions have been taking 48 to 50 weeks. For a child to have to wait for a year for a decision on whether it can stay with the family or should go into care is half a year too long. This is what Norgrove wanted: dramatically to reduce the time.
The NSPCC has been lobbying me as well and I have heard the touching story, but I am afraid that I sent an e-mail saying that in this particular instance I do not agree. If one looks at Clause 14, which is the subject of this amendment, one can see that under new subsection (5) onwards, there is an opportunity for extensions of eight weeks. However, if there is an open book, there will be judges who allow it to remain open, whereas if you have to be ready to go back after each period of eight weeks, that has a marvellous effect on getting on with what needs to be done.
I also notice that under new subsection (9) the Lord Chancellor can change the 26-week period, while new subsection (10) states that the rules of court may provide for changes. I have absolutely no doubt that the rules committee and the senior judiciary, particularly the Family Division liaison judges on each of the circuits, will check on the designated family judges in the care centres. If there are cases where the decision has been too speedy, I have no doubt at all that the system will be able to see that, which provides an opportunity to decide at that stage whether there needs to be an extension. But, for the moment, I ask the Minister to stand firm on this one.
Baroness Tyler of Enfield
I understand the intention behind the amendment, particularly in terms of promoting the best interests of the child and the child’s welfare, but I also feel that the signal it would send would not be the right one at this stage. I have heard the president talking about this, and I think that at the moment his mantra is, “It can be done, it will be done, it must be done”. It is all about turning around the culture from one of delay to one of urgency, with all parties involved in this—that is, the judiciary, local authorities, CAFCASS and others—doing all that they can to ensure that these cases are dealt with as quickly as they can be and in a way that is commensurate with the best interests of the child.
I was very much reinforced in this recently. I attended the National Children and Adults Services Conference in Harrogate on Friday. It was a very good three-day event with a number of Ministers and others speaking. I went to a specialist workshop all about completing care proceedings in 26 weeks. Several academics, particularly from the University of East Anglia, presented some initial findings from the research that they have been doing into the impact of the new public law outline to try to move to a 26-week time limit, and particularly the impact of what is called the tri-borough project with Kensington and Chelsea, Westminster and Hammersmith and Fulham. I have been to visit that project myself and the results, frankly, are extremely impressive: already 50% of cases are being resolved in less than 26 weeks.
Even with the knowledge that we were going to have this clause in the Bill or at least debate it, national case duration averages were already coming down from what was something like 49 weeks to about 37 weeks, and they are on a downward trajectory. While I fully understand the case that is being made for those very exceptional cases where the extensions will be needed, there is sufficient flexibility in the Bill as drafted for that. I would be concerned about anything that diluted this very important message about trying to move away from delay in the family court system.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
My Lords, I am not briefed by the NSPCC but I have a brief from the Magistrates’ Association, which makes it clear that it also supports the 26-week time limit but also agrees that there should be specific extensions for eight weeks where people can apply to the court. It would probably be most helpful if I raised the questions that the Magistrates’ Association has raised in the brief that it sent me. Before I do so, though, I want to make the point that the examples of exceptions that my noble friend Lady Jones gave are very far from theoretical, because two of those examples I personally dealt with in the past month. They were very real examples of something that I understood very clearly.
The first of the questions that the Magistrates’ Association raised in its brief to me is really a concern that an application for an eight-week extension should resist that extension being a contested hearing, and obviously the decision of the court should be final. If there is to be a contested hearing on an eight-week extension, though, it should be as short and focused as possible. The second point that the Magistrates’ Association made was that it is not clear, from the association’s understanding, that there is any limit to the maximum number of successive extensions. The association’s final point is to ask whether there is any right of appeal if a lower court—although perhaps “lower court” is not the right expression—decides not to grant an extension. Is there any right of appeal to a higher jurisdiction?
Lord McNally
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, for her intervention in support of these proposals—I am also grateful for my momentary promotion. It gives me an opportunity to pay tribute to the work of Lord Justice Ryder when he was with the Family Division. He did a lot of ground-clearing in this area, not least bringing in some very useful comparative statistics which allowed us to see the variety in performance of courts, which was affecting children at a vulnerable time of their lives. When this exercise started, it took more than 60 weeks in some cases to come to a decision. The tri-borough project also demonstrated in advance of this legislation that this could be done more quickly. Certainly, the robust leadership that Sir James Munby has given in implementing the Norgrove proposals has meant that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, said, a culture of delay has been replaced by a culture of urgency. That is much to the credit of what we are proposing.
We all agree that delays in decision-making, whether by local authorities or in courts, can be very damaging. They can add to emotional insecurity and affect children’s prospects for returning to or finding a permanent loving home. Introducing a 26-week time limit for care and supervision cases will send a clear and unambiguous statement to all parts of the family justice system about the need to reduce delay. Removing certain cases from the ambit of the 26-week time limit at the outset, as proposed by Amendment 62, would undermine this effort.
I recognise that these cases deal with important and complex issues and not all will be able to be completed within this timeframe. The court will therefore have the discretion to extend the time limit in a particular case beyond 26 weeks if that is necessary to resolve the proceedings justly. The clause carefully strikes the necessary balance between putting in place a maximum 26-week time limit to tackle delay in all cases and allowing sufficient judicial discretion to extend time where necessary to resolve the case justly, having explicit regard to the child’s welfare.
Requiring extensions to last for a maximum of eight weeks at a time will help ensure that the court is focused on resolving cases as quickly as possible. To allow the court to grant an extension without imposing any limit as to the length of the extension, as proposed by Amendment 63, would potentially allow cases to drift. This could undermine the aim that we all share, of reducing unnecessary delay. There will always be some very complex cases which it may not be possible to complete within 26 weeks. Where that is the case, the court will be able to extend time, where necessary, to resolve proceedings justly. It is important, however, that we keep a clear focus on resolving cases as quickly as possible, and specifying a maximum eight-week limit on the length of extensions will ensure that this happens. There is, however, no limit on the number of extensions that can be sought.
I recognise the concerns of the noble Baronesses and have seen how successful intervention models such as the Family Drug and Alcohol Court approach can be. That is why I am very pleased that the Government are continuing to provide funding of £150,000 in each year of 2013-14 and 2014-15 to continue the development and rollout of the FDAC. As part of our funding of FDAC, we are proposing to continue work that will enable this model to meet the 26-week time limit in most cases. Proceedings in the FDAC model currently take the same time on average as standard care proceedings, and we believe that the 26-week time limit can be applied successfully in most cases.
I think I have just answered the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, asked about the Family Procedure Rule Committee. On the basis of its specific expertise, the committee has been invited to consider whether to further elaborate on the matter to which the court is to have regard in order to support Clause 14, and we await its response. The court rules may set out the matters to which the court must, may or may not have regard when making the decision whether to grant an extension to the time limit. It is, rightly, the remit of the FPRC to consider whether to make court rules under the clause; it is a statutory independent non-departmental public body responsible for making these rules of the court. Before making the rules, the FPRC must consult such persons as it considers appropriate, and we will update the Committee on the FPRC’s work before Report.
I am not sure whether there were any other matters that were specific to this; the questions come thick and fast. Yes, there was one: the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones and Lady Benjamin, raised the question of whether the 26-week time limit would impact on kinship care and whether it would be shoehorned into a one-size-fits-all solution. We are aware that, in spite of everyone’s best efforts, occasionally relatives are not identified until late in the proceedings. However, the 26-week time limit should not impact on kinship care. It is not for the courts to decide whether it is Granny who the child goes to; rather, it relates to the choice of the permanence plan being a relative if possible, followed by adoption or long-term foster care. After all, the court does not decide which adopters the child goes to when it agrees to a plan for adoption. We are continuing to use programmes such as family group conferences before proceedings start in order to identify family members from the onset of cases. In addition, we are working in partnership with the Children’s Improvement Board and the College of Social Work to support the continuing improvement of social work practice. Of course, the court retains the power to extend the case for longer consideration if necessary.
The public law measures in the Bill will tackle the damaging delays that exist throughout the system. These delays can deny children the chance of a permanent home and have a harmful long-term effect on a child’s development. The measures will also refocus the system so that the child’s best interests are part of the process. Our measures strike the necessary balance between tackling delay and allowing sufficient judicial discretion to resolve proceedings justly, and I hope that noble Lords will agree to withdraw these amendments.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, I briefly pay tribute to the Government. In the past week I met District Judge Crichton and his team from the NHS Portman trust. District Judge Crichton set up the Family Drug and Alcohol Court five or six years ago and has had great success, with about one-third of families coming through the court keeping their children, and the best evidence so far is that those children continue to do well and thrive with those families, so the family stays off drugs and alcohol. I pay tribute to the Government for their support of FDAC from the beginning and for their continuing support. I express the hope that perhaps in future FDAC might be made even more widely available across the country, always bearing in mind the heavy burden that local authorities are continually faced with as more and more children each year come into care and the challenges that that poses to all of us. Once again, I pay tribute to the Government for their support of FDAC, if I may.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, I welcome the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin. I do not want anyone to be under any illusions: of course it is imperative that we tackle the court delays that have occurred in the system. We absolutely start from that point of view. We welcome all the steps that have been taken to modernise the family court system, including those to cut the time that is taken to deal with cases in the court. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, that it is a cultural issue as much as anything and we need to tackle that culture.
Our amendments were never intended to be an open door for judges just to sit on their hands and delay decisions. The intention was that in very particular cases, which people could see from the outset were going to take longer than 26 weeks, they would be able to make a decision and spell out and justify that decision at the time. It was not just an opportunity for a delay for the sake of it.
I am slightly concerned about how these eight-week extensions are going to work. For example, if a family is going through an intensive period of therapy, knowing that the case is going back to be reviewed every eight weeks is fantastically stressful and disruptive to them when they feel that they are making progress. The evidence shows that a lot of court decisions were delayed because the processes were not in place, reports were not received in time or the evidence was not there at the time. If you are then going to deal with a rolling eight-week review, there are all sorts of opportunities for things to go wrong and for the evidence simply not to be before the court at the right time. I would be interested to know how these eight-week extensions work in practice. We may well need to have a review of them in the short term.
My noble friend Lord Ponsonby said that my examples were not theoretical, and I thank him for confirming that. The point is that the families that we are talking about know from the outset that it is going to take time to turn their lives around. They know they are going on quite a long journey. To feel that that there is this time pressure hanging over them will have a negative impact on the whole process.
Lord McNally
The noble Baroness was asking about how the extensions would work in practice. The request to extend the timetable for proceedings will be considered during the proceedings, as far as possible, and should not result in additional hearings. I should also explain to the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, that there could be further extensions. On the right of appeal, I have an explanation in my brief but I would rather write to him to make sure that I get it right. There is a limited right of appeal. I am sorry for interrupting the noble Baroness.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
I am not sure that the Minister has shed much light on things. I am now even more confused. Surely if there is going to be an eight-week extension, people have to meet every eight weeks to decide whether or not it should be further extended. You could say as a one-off, “We’ll allow a further eight weeks”, but then you will have to keep meeting every eight weeks to review that, if it is intended that there will be more than one eight-week extension. No doubt we can talk about this outside the Room and the noble Lord can clarify that further.
There is a serious point at the heart of this: what do we want to get out of the 26-week deadline? I hope that we all want children to have a chance to stay with their birth family, if possible. I feel that we will find over time that if courts are under pressure because of the 26-week timescale, the default position will be that children are taken into care because there simply will not be enough time to do the work with the birth parents. That is the real sadness behind what is being proposed here, because it is too stringent and lacking in flexibility.
Our position is that we want something that is absolutely and justifiably in the interests of the child and its welfare, and I still believe that what we are proposing would achieve that. For the time being, however, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Lloyd of Berwick
“Care proceedings: standard of proof
(1) The Children Act 1989 is amended as follows.
(2) In section 31 (care and supervision), after subsection (2) insert—
“(2A) Subsection (2) above shall be interpreted so as to permit a court to infer that a child is likely to suffer significant harm from the sole fact that the child is, or will be, living with a person who is a possible perpetrator of significant harm to another child.
(2B) For the purposes of subsection (2A), a person (the person concerned) is to be treated as a “possible perpetrator” if—
(a) a child has suffered significant harm;(b) the court is unable to identify the actual perpetrator of the said harm but identifies a list of possible perpetrators by finding (in relation to each such person) that there is a real possibility that he caused significant harm to the child; and(c) the person concerned is one of the persons on the said list.””
Lord Lloyd of Berwick
My Lords, this amendment is concerned with the standard of proof in care proceedings. I am conscious that the purpose of the amendment may not be crystal clear, so I have prepared a note setting out the background to the amendment, and it contains the wording of the section that we will be discussing. Many Members may already have a copy of that note but, if not, it is on the table.
The relevant section is Section 31 of the Children Act 1989, which provides the threshold that must be crossed before a child can be taken into care. However, it is only a threshold. If the threshold is crossed, it does not mean that the child is necessarily taken into care. That is decided at the later, welfare stage when all the matters set out in Section 1 of the 1989 Act must be taken into account. This is all well known to the Committee. Conversely, if the threshold is not crossed, the court has no power to intervene.
Section 31 provides that a child may be taken into care only if,
“the child concerned is suffering, or is likely to suffer, significant harm; and … the harm, or likelihood of harm, is attributable to … the care given to the child”,
falling short of what it would be reasonable to expect. Those words are simple enough and they pose two questions which, I suggest, should be capable of being answered without too much help from us lawyers. Sadly, that has not proved to be the case.
Lord Lloyd of Berwick
My Lords, I said that the two questions posed by Section 31 should be capable of being answered without too much help from lawyers, but that has not proved to be the case. In the 27 years since 1986, the section has been considered on no fewer than eight occasions in our highest court, and on two occasions already this year. On one of those occasions it was said:
“This is unfortunate, especially in an area of the law which has to be applied on a daily basis by courts at all levels, and in which clarity is therefore of particular importance”.
I think noble Lords would say amen to that. Happily, there is one word in the section on the meaning of which everyone is agreed, and that is the word “likely” in subsection (1). It does not mean more likely than not. It means only that there is a real possibility of harm to a child or, as one judge put it, a possibility that cannot sensibly be ignored.
Perhaps I may paraphrase Section 32(1) again. It states that a child may be taken into care only if, first, it is suffering significant harm or, secondly, there is the real possibility that it will suffer significant harm. I shall not repeat all the wording. In other words, there are two separate conditions which may trigger the threshold, one relating to the present and the other relating to the future. When the case is put on the basis of present harm—for example, that the child is being physically or sexually abused by its father—it will be necessary to prove that fact on a balance of probability. Anything less than that would be unfair on the father and, indeed, on both parents. This is so also where the case is that the child has suffered serious injury and it is uncertain whether the injury was inflicted by the mother. It will be necessary to prove on a balance of probability that the child has indeed been injured and that the injury was inflicted by either the father or the mother, or both, but it will not be necessary at the threshold stage to decide which parent it was. That will be decided, if it can be decided at all, at the welfare stage on all the evidence which will then be available. The same principle of the threshold test also applies in relation to any unharmed child of the family.
So far, all is plain sailing. The difficulty arises when the parents separate. Let us suppose that the father goes off to live with another woman who already has a child of her own of the same age as the injured child. Is the threshold satisfied in relation to that child? Common sense would suggest that it is. There is a 50% chance on the proved facts that it was the father who injured the first child, who we will call child A. There must be at least a serious possibility that he will also injure child B—a possibility which, I repeat, cannot sensibly be ignored. If so, the threshold would be satisfied in relation to child B as well as to child A. However, the Supreme Court has held in a very recent case, Re J (Children), that that is not so. The Court has held that a serious possibility that it was the father who inflicted the injury is not enough. In order to satisfy the threshold in relation to child B, it will be for the local authority to prove on a balance of probability that it was the father and not the mother who injured child A. Since on the assumed facts that could not be done, child B would remain at risk.
I suggest that this cannot have been what Parliament intended when enacting Section 32(1), otherwise why did Parliament include the word “likely” as the alternative ground on which the threshold may be satisfied? The matter can be tested in this way by assuming that the mother is also now living with another man and has had a child which we shall call child C. Does child C also have to remain at risk because it cannot be proved on a balance of probability that it was the mother rather than the father who inflicted the harm on child A? The noble and learned Lord, Lord Nicholls, who gave the leading judgments in the three initial cases on Section 31 in the House of Lords, described such a result as,
“grotesque because it would mean the court would proceed on the footing that neither parent represents a risk even though one or other of them was”,
responsible for the harm in question.
How then, one may ask, has the Supreme Court in Re J arrived at a different conclusion that, as the noble and learned Lord has said, on the face of it is “grotesque”. How can two of the judges in the Supreme Court have held that the injury to child A in such a case is logically irrelevant in deciding whether child B and child C are at risk and must therefore be disregarded altogether?
The answer to how the Supreme Court can have reached that conclusion is to be found in the judgment of Lord Justice McFarlane in the same case but in the court below. Lord Justice McFarlane is one of our most experienced Family Division judges, and is the author of one of the leading textbooks in this field. It was he who gave the leading judgment in the Court of Appeal in Re J. He went through all the House of Lords and Supreme Court decisions going back to 1996, and he showed that a clear distinction is drawn in the cases between those where the question is whether any harm has been proved at all and those cases where harm has been proved but the perpetrator of the harm is uncertain. That is the very distinction drawn by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Nicholls, in the House of Lords case that I have already quoted.
Somehow though, that distinction was overlooked in later cases. Lord Justice McFarlane makes no secret of the fact that he favours the approach of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Nicholls, and would therefore have allowed the appeal in Re J if he could. However, subsequent decisions in the Supreme Court meant of course that his hands were tied. So the Court of Appeal took the unusual course of dismissing the appeal but itself giving leave to appeal to the Supreme Court, thereby, one might think, inviting the Supreme Court to have another look at this problem. Unfortunately, as I see it, the Supreme Court simply came up with the same answer again.
Lord Justice McFarlane’s judgment is long and detailed but his conclusion is clear, concise and very relevant in this context. It is contained in a single page of the Law Reports, which I have had copied, and the Committee may find it helpful to read his conclusion when considering this amendment. Copies are available on the table by the door.
I come to the decision of the Supreme Court itself in Re J. Is it open to us to take a different view? If so, is it wise for us to do so? To both those questions I would answer yes, for three reasons. First, three of the judges in the Supreme Court were themselves attracted by the argument that the approach in these cases has become much too complicated and that this is having unfortunate consequences. Secondly, the decision in the Supreme Court has been subjected to a hail of criticism in lengthy articles by Professor Mary Hayes and Stephen Gilmore, appearing in Family Law. There is not the slightest reason to doubt that, as they point out, the decision is causing real concern, if not consternation, among social workers and local authorities who have to apply Section 32 in practice. Thirdly, the decision in the Supreme Court hardly does justice to Lord Justice McFarlane’s decision in the Court of Appeal; indeed, it is scarcely even mentioned.
There is another reason for accepting this amendment. I am not seeking to amend the wording of Section 32(1) itself; the wording is fine and has stood the test of time. It is only the interpretation of that section that needs correcting, and that is what the amendment seeks to do. Its intended purpose is to clarify, and above all to simplify, the approach in cases of the kind that I have described where the harm has been proved on the balance of probabilities but the court cannot make a finding on the evidence whether it was the father or the mother who inflicted that harm. A judge of great experience in the Family Division said that that is the sort of case that occurs very often—“commonplace”, I think he said—in practice. In such cases, if the amendment were accepted, both parents would be placed in what is called a pool of possible perpetrators, thus enabling the case to proceed to the next stage, the welfare stage, where a decision could be made.
I refer to a “pool” because that is the term used by those who read these cases, or a “list”, as it is called in the amendment. Why does one have to have a pool or a list? The reason is quite simple: in one case, which has actually occurred in practice, there was a third possible perpetrator. In addition to the parents of the child in question, there was a childminder who also had a child of her own of about the same age. In such a case, it obviously makes sense that the childminder should be included in the pool of possible perpetrators, thus enabling that child to be protected should it become necessary. I hope that this has done something to clarify the purpose of the amendment and I beg to move.
Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I support the amendment as strongly as I may. The critical consideration to keep in mind here, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, has explained, is that what we are concerned about today is a threshold provision. The amendment would mean simply that in a small but very important additional category of cases, the court would have the jurisdiction and the power to investigate the case in depth and to consider whether in all the circumstances it should then make a care order or supervision order for the child’s protection. The small category of additional cases—again, the noble and learned Lord has explained this—is where it is established that some other child has already suffered significant harm, perhaps has even been killed, but the local authority concerned about some other child can demonstrate only the possibility, rather than the actual probability, that the perpetrator of that harm was someone who is now caring for the child in question—the child, that is, whose safety is presently under consideration.
As it happens, I was not in any of the string of cases in which the question of the true interpretation of Section 31(2) of the Children Act 1989 has arisen in recent years. Whether in the original House of Lords case I should have agreed with the majority view or with the dissenting minority view of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Browne-Wilkinson, and indeed of my noble and learned friend Lord Lloyd, does not matter. It is unnecessary to decide now which was the better interpretation of the language that Parliament originally enacted in 1989.
What is clear, as again the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, has explained, is that several judges who have had to grapple with this point, even if they felt bound by the original majority’s decision, have expressed serious misgivings about the consequences of that interpretation. In the case last year, Re J, to which again my noble and learned friend has referred, both the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, then the Lord Chief Justice and now a Member of this House, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Neuberger, then Master of the Rolls and now President of the Supreme Court, agreed with Lord Justice McFarlane. His judgment expressed his trouble with the interpretation given to this section and described it,
“as a cause of concern amongst child protection agencies”.
What is certain is that the clause as originally enacted was not clear enough as to what Parliament then intended. The amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, or some comparable draft, would make it plain. It would solve the real and recurrent difficulty that this vitally important part of the law has got itself into, and it would produce a result that for my part I believe we should be striving for, which is to open the gateway to the court.
I repeat, this is only a threshold provision which would apply whenever a child is found to be at risk of being harmed, as must surely be the case when one of the caring parents is shown to have been a possible perpetrator of serious harm in the past. To anybody who is concerned that the court, following this amendment, would too readily take children away from a parent who only might have harmed some other child, I would say this is absolutely not the case. To quote subsection (2)(2A) of the proposed amendment,
“to infer that a child is likely to suffer significant harm”,
is to infer no more than that there is a risk of that child being harmed as surely there is if there is a real possibility that its carer has significantly harmed some other child. Crucially, it would then remain for the court, looking at all the facts of the case, to decide whether, under Section 1 of the 1989 Act, the child’s welfare is indeed best served by making a care or supervision order. I support the amendment.
Baroness Perry of Southwark (Con)
My Lords, as an amateur and a non-lawyer, I hope that the Government will be able to accept the noble and learned Lord’s amendment. How very fortunate we are to have people like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, with us in Parliament; how important it is that people with experience as Law Lords should be able to return and give us the benefit of their expertise. I was entranced by his exposition of the amendment because, as an amateur, it is clear to me that people who abuse children do not stop: if you have abused one child, you will undoubtedly go on to harm another.
In the kind of case that the noble and learned Lord described, where a couple split up, we do not know which one of them was harming the child—perhaps it was both. They move into a new family with other children, that harm will continue and the new child will be at risk as well. It has been made clear to us that the Court of Appeal cannot at the moment understand with clarity what it is supposed to do. This would help enormously and I hope that the Minister will be able to accept it. However, he is looking very grim, so perhaps he will not.
Baroness Hughes of Stretford
My Lords, I want to make just a couple of remarks. First, I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, for the note that he has sent to us and for his very clear exposition today of a very complicated issue.
There is an issue here. In my own previous academic experience I did a considerable amount of government-funded research into child abuse, and child sexual abuse in particular. Apart from any other kinds of cases, we found a very significant although small number of men who quite deliberately target families and go round seeking one woman after another. In each case, there is harm to the child but it cannot necessarily be definitively proved which individual committed the harm. For a small number of children this is a problem.
It is quite difficult for those of us who are not lawyers and who have not followed the detail of the Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court and are not steeped in all this language and the issues to evaluate precisely—I cannot do so—whether there is an issue here and, if so, how the Government should act. It seems that there may be an issue here. I would be grateful if the Minister could say whether he thinks there is a problem and that it is the problem that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, has identified. Is there a potential problem now where some children could be left in situations of risk when perhaps previously there might have been an intervention to protect them? If so, what is the best course of action for the Government to take?
I can perhaps understand the Government’s reluctance to intervene in or be seen to meddle with Supreme Court adjudications. None the less, if there is an issue here, clearly it is within the Government’s power to rectify or revert to the original intention of the Children Act, whether by Amendment 64 or by some other course of action. I certainly feel, as I suspect do other Members of the Committee, that it would be very helpful to have the Minister’s clarification on whether there is an issue here and, if so, what is the best remedy.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland
My Lords, I am not a practising lawyer either but I was a social worker of long standing. I want to say very briefly that the social work organisations are extremely concerned about this situation, and we should have that on the record.
The concern is that in the past, social workers would have been able to move cases forward through the courts easily because of the previous judgments, but now they cannot move to the welfare principle quickly enough, which means that often they cannot gain access to the home where the perpetrator is living. The issue is actually being able to ensure that children can be protected by social care staff or voluntary workers, if that is where the work is, being able to gain access to a home quickly and simply through a court order such as that proposed in the amendment.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, I am extremely sad to have to disagree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd. I am also indebted to the noble and learned Lords, Lord Hope of Craighead and Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers, for what they would like to have said, but they are both unable to be here today.
It is important to realise that there are two views of the judiciary, of the academics and of the lawyers, not only the view put forward by the noble and learned Lord. The first view is that of seven Supreme Court judges. Normally in the Supreme Court they sit in a five-judge court. In this case, no doubt because it was either the seventh or eighth case, they sat as a seven-judge court. I have the highest possible regard for Lord Justice McFarlane, but two of the judges of the Supreme Court were family judges of even greater experience and expertise than him. Both those judges, both of whom are family practitioners and both of whom have worked with me, were absolutely unanimous with the other five that the decision to which the Supreme Court came was the right one.
There are two issues. One concerns a situation where there has been no significant harm to the child, or in Re J, the case with which we are concerned, three children. However, there was very significant harm to one child who died. In that case, the mother and the father were the only possible perpetrators. Under the current law, it did not matter which of them had killed or injured the child. The child may have died of asphyxia from being rolled on to in the bed—the child was lying in the bed with the parents, which is a terrible habit. This child had been seriously injured before it died. Those are the facts. The mother, during the time she lived with the father, was in that pool of perpetrators and it was clearly not safe for the older child, born while the parents were engaged in the process of care, to live with them. They then parted and went to live with different people. The mother eventually went to live with a man who was the divorced father of two children who lived with him, and with him she had two further children. The pool was then a different pool, not the pool of two perpetrators, one of whom was bound to have done it, but a different pool in which nothing had happened so far. The judges in the Re J case said that there had to be some evidence from which to infer the likelihood of significant harm in the new group, and it could not be said that the mother had injured or helped to kill the child when she lived in the other group, where she and the father were the obvious suspects. In Re J, the seven Supreme Court judges, who were unanimous, said that you had to have some evidence to cross the threshold. Unfortunately in that case the only issue that the local authority presented to the Court of Appeal and to the Supreme Court was the fact that the mother was in the area pool of perpetrators; no other facts were presented at all.
The alternative view put forward by the noble and learned Lord was one he put forward in the earlier case of Re H, where he was in the minority; the majority found against him. In that case, there was a girl of 16 who the elder sister of younger children. The girl said that she had been raped by the stepfather. In the criminal proceedings, he was acquitted. In the family proceedings, the judge said he was not satisfied as to the appropriate standard that the stepfather had raped this girl, but there was a strong suspicion. In that case the Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court held that they could not infer sufficient facts to say that the other children were at risk.
The noble and learned Lord referred to another judgment by that great judge, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Nicholls of Birkenhead, who gave a leading speech in a case called B, or A, which I was on in the Court of Appeal. It involved three people; namely, the mother, the father and the childminder. In that case, the noble and learned Lord said that in relation to those three in that pool where the child was injured—I think that the child died—clearly it was “grotesque” to say that because they could not prove which of the two, or possibly three including the childminder, had actually committed the injury, they should not take steps to protect the children.
However, that is not the present case. In that case, it was the pool of potential perpetrators, one of whom had done it. In this case, the mother had moved away. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers, raised an interesting point. He asked whether there were any recorded cases where the only evidence was that the mother or father had moved from the pool of perpetrators into a subsequent pool where the current law meant that nothing could be done and the child had suffered. I have to say that I have not heard of such a case. I do not think that there is such a case because it would undoubtedly have been referred to in the later cases, particularly in Re J. I thought that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillips, made an extremely pertinent point that there was nothing to show that the current law has been to the detriment of children potentially at risk.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, pointed to the crucial fact that the mother in Re J was in a new pool. No one has suggested that the father of the other children had ever committed any offence. He was a totally respected man. In his note, the noble and learned Lord said that the fact that the mother was in the earlier pool of perpetrators was relevant, but by itself that was not sufficient. He went on to say that it could be relied on, together with any other facts or circumstances that might be relevant, to support the conclusion that the three other children in Re J were likely to suffer harm.
It is interesting that there are other important factors that neither the Court of Appeal nor the Supreme Court were allowed to deal with. The first factor was that the mother was very young when she was living with the man and the child died. Secondly, it was a new relationship with a totally respectable person. Thirdly, there were two further children and she was much more mature. There were factors against her which they did not take into account; namely, that she had colluded with the man in the first case. If they had taken that into account, they might well have crossed the threshold. Unfortunately, those facts were not taken into account.
Therefore, as I understand it, this is a sole issue that is unlikely and, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, said, it is extremely rare. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale, who is one of the great family experts, and Lord Wilson, were both satisfied in this case that the threshold was properly not crossed. Lord Reed said in paragraph 98 of Family Law Week that if the current law as stated in this case was causing consternation, it would appear to be an overreaction because the one clear-cut point was not one that was likely to come up very often, if at all. I am extremely concerned that we maintain a balance between the right of children to their own family, the right of parents to family life and their own child, and the crucial importance of the protection of the child where there is danger to that child.
The very delicate balance in Section 31 has been studied and subject to the most careful judgments by the Supreme Court. I think it is a little unjust to the Supreme Court that while the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, spent a lot of time on what Lord Justice McFarlane said, he did not quote a single passage of what anyone in the Supreme Court said. They are worth reading and they have a very good point. I would say to noble Lords that we have to be careful to protect families from too ready an interference on the part of the state unless there is sufficient evidence to take the child or children away.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland
It is not being suggested that the children should be taken away. The suggestion is whether we are able to move to the welfare question.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
I have to say that in my experience as a family judge, speaking perhaps as the only family judge present, although of course the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, is a family magistrate, those judges would be issuing care proceedings immediately and removing the child while they debated whether the issue could be concluded in favour of the local authority’s view at the care hearing. On the interim care proceedings I have no doubt about the protection issues. Based on this, they would remove the child.
It is also interesting to note that despite some very strong attacks by two well known and respected family academic lawyers, another well respected family academic lawyer, Andrew Bainham, a reader in family law at Cambridge, has gone exactly the wrong way and has taken the view that the Supreme Court was right.
The last point I want to make is this: are we really right to change the point at which the threshold should be crossed, something on which seven Supreme Court judges have reached a conclusion with the greatest possible care? I urge the Committee not to do so.
The Lord Bishop of Chester
My Lords, at the risk of lowering the tone of this extraordinarily learned exchange, in the church we face a similar issue when trying to discern when someone poses a potential risk but nothing can be proved. It is a difficult line to establish. In the drafting of this amendment, my eye has been caught by the juxtaposition of the words “likely” and “possible”. I wonder whether there is a better way of phrasing it. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, used the word “might” at one point, but interestingly then corrected herself and said “was likely to”. There is a real difference between someone being assessed as “might” be a threat and “is likely to” be a threat. I think that I come down on the side of the noble and learned Baroness. However, it is good to know that the lawyers have only two views in these situations.
If this comes back, I hope that we will be able to look at the phraseology. To deduce that something is “likely” from a certain level of possibility seems to carry a stigma that we should not attach unless we really have to do so.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)
My Lords, I had the responsibility of producing Clause 31 as it was, now Section 31, of the 1989 Act. It is extremely important and, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, has said, it has stood the test of time. It is important because it marks a threshold. That does not mean that it is an introduction or a preliminary, it means that it determines whether or not the court has the power to remove a child from the natural situation in which he or she is living. It is vital, on the one hand, where there is harm to the child, that the public authority, in this case the local authority, should be able to step in. However, it is equally important that the local authority should not be able to step in where the facts required for the threshold have not been demonstrated. It is that sort of position that the threshold occupies. It is not a question of having to do this in order to go on to welfare. It is that if the threshold is not satisfied, the court cannot remove the child from its natural parents.
Lord Lloyd of Berwick
Neither the noble and learned Lord nor I were Family Division judges, but another Family Division judge said that the type of case where it is not possible to tell on the evidence whether it is the mother or the father, but it is clearly one or the other, occurs very frequently. That is the kind of case that the amendment deals with.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale, made it perfectly plain that the case that was set up for the Supreme Court was a very special case that she certainly would not expect. She has vast experience of these matters, as has Lord Wilson. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, said that I was not a Family Division judge. I certainly was not, but in the Court of Session in Scotland I had family cases. That was a very long time ago but some of the experience still stays at me.
Lord Storey (LD)
My Lords, I was not going to speak to this amendment. I have followed the debate with great interest. I am probably out of my depth in this discussion. I want to look at it from a different point of view.
I have heard about “likely”, “possible” and “thresholds”. I am always concerned about the protection and well-being of the child. In recent years we have seen children who have been physically and mentally abused at home, and no one has been able to help them. They have seen the abuse but they have not been able to go and do anything about it. Recently, there was a little boy who was emaciated; he was scrabbling around for food in the gutter and was allowed to be ill treated by his parents. If this discussion means that a social worker can knock on the door, get into the house and provide welfare and, presumably, safety for the child—not necessarily taking the child away—then that must be the right thing to do. It must not always be about a legal interpretation or a legal battle between two sides. We must always focus on what is the best for an individual child. Recently society has let those children down. We have to remember the case of Baby P to see where that happened.
Lord McNally
My Lords, perhaps I may follow my noble friend Lord Storey because he encapsulates a lot of why this is a very difficult debate. Earlier today we heard strong appeals to ensure that local authorities did not rush to judgment and deprive a child of staying at home and being brought up by their natural family. I have colleagues in the other place who are extremely critical of what they think is a tendency by authorities in Britain to too readily take children from their natural parents and from their kinship carers and family. Yet, as my noble friend says, every so often we get these horrific cases, and not just the media but everyone asks, “How could it happen? Where were the teachers, the social workers and the neighbours? How was it allowed to happen?”. The question of that balance has kept on coming up throughout the debate—the importance of the threshold that has to be cleared before we can intervene.
Again, I am not pretending to the Committee that these things are coming from the top of my head, but I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, that I am told Section 47 would allow statutory intervention in a child’s life if the child’s life warranted it. Under that section the local authority has a duty to investigate and can gain access to the child’s home if it deems the child to be at risk of significant harm, and then move for an emergency protection order. It may not be the barrier that the noble Baroness was suggesting.
I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, for raising this important issue and for meeting me and my officials last week to explain his concerns in more detail. This is clearly a complicated issue, and I welcome the opportunity to hear the views of noble Lords who have such expertise and experience in these difficult matters, even if that expertise causes them to come to different conclusions.
As noble Lords will appreciate, Section 31(2) of the Children Act, which the noble and learned Lord proposes to amend, has to balance the need to protect children from harm with the need to protect the child and family from unwarranted state intrusion—the balance that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, the author of that Act, has explained to us. Any amendment to this carefully worded section, which has stood the test of time, therefore should not be taken lightly.
The amendment would allow a court to infer that the threshold for making a full care or supervision order has been met solely on the basis that someone living with a child might—but was not proven to—have significantly harmed a child previously. This is a departure from the current balance in the Act. Currently there must be a factual foundation for the state’s removal of a child. Reasonable suspicion is a sufficient basis for authorities to investigate and even take interim protective measures in order to gather evidence, but case law has outlined that it cannot be a sufficient basis for long-term intervention.
The threshold for being able to intervene under Section 31 is there not only to protect the family but to protect the child, as unjustified removal can in itself result in significant harm to the child. This is the very reason why Section 31 was included in the Children Act 1989. It is possible that such protection would be eroded if it could be inferred on the basis of unsubstantiated suspicion that there was a basis for making a final order such as a care or supervision order.
I know that the noble and learned Lord has tabled this amendment following concerns about some specific judgments. But it is important to note that in most cases the court would be unlikely to a make a decision based on the sole fact that a person might—but was not proven to—have significantly harmed a child previously, as was the case in re J. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, made the point that it was a unique case.
It is important to bear in mind what happens in the build-up to care proceedings. Where there are child protection concerns, the local authority is under a duty under Section 47 of the Children Act 1989 to make inquiries and decide whether any action must be taken to enable the local authority to safeguard the child’s welfare. A Section 47 inquiry should assess the needs of the individual child. The statutory safeguarding guidance, Working Together to Safeguard Children, issued in 2013, is clear that assessment is,
“a dynamic and continuous process which should build on the history of every individual case”.
A good assessment investigates,
“the child’s developmental needs … parents’ or carers’ capacity to respond to those needs; and the impact and influence of wider family and community and environmental factors”.
Research shows that taking a systematic approach,
“is the best way to deliver a comprehensive assessment for all children”.
This should mean that, when the court hears an application for a care order, the court is presented with a full range of factors and evidence for it to consider. For example, the court may consider the child’s assessed development and needs, whether drink and drugs were present in the previous household and whether they are a factor in the new relationship, along with the factors surrounding any previous incident that may have occurred.
The judgment of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale, has been quoted a number of times. What she actually said is:
“There are usually many readily provable facts upon which an authority can rely to satisfy the court that a child is likely to suffer significant harm unless something is done to protect him. Cases in which the only thing upon which the authority can rely is the possibility that this parent has harmed another child in the past are very rare. As the Court of Appeal pointed out, this case has itself been artificially constructed by the decision to treat the issue as a preliminary question of law”.
A real possibility of harm having taken place in the past will not be ignored by the local authority carrying out the investigation and would form the body of evidence presented to the court as part of care proceedings. We are therefore satisfied that the court would give appropriate consideration to those matters related to the child’s history that are relevant to whether the threshold test has been met.
Lord Lloyd of Berwick
My Lords, the Minister has indicated that this matter will come back on Report, so I do not intend at this stage to deal with the arguments that have been advanced by those who are not in favour of the amendment. I am very grateful to those who have supported it, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, who put the point as clearly as possible that if there is a doubt or a serious possibility then the balance should come down in favour of protecting the child. That is all that I am concerned to do.
Over and again, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, referred to the case where one or other of the parents might have inflicted harm, and asked how on the basis of that it could be said that the threshold was passed. That is not the case that we are discussing. We are discussing a case where the harm is certainly inflicted by either the mother or the father. To say in those circumstances that it might only have been the mother is not enough; it is clearly a serious possibility, at the very least, that it was the mother on the one hand or the father on the other, and that serious possibility is enough to trigger the threshold on the clear wording of Section 32(1), which refers to “likely”, which in turn has been held to mean a serious possibility. That is all I will say at this stage, but I will certainly come back.
One other thing: the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, referred—I do not know with what propriety—to two people who had advised her that they were on her side. I could have quoted two others, equally eminent, who were on mine. At this stage I do not think that we should count heads; that is not the way to do it. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
House of Lords
Introduction: Lord Verjee
Introduction: Baroness Suttie
Russia: Human Rights
(10 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Lexden
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what has been the response to the representations they have made to the government of Russia about the abuse of human rights of homosexuals in that country.
The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con)
My Lords, the Prime Minister raised concerns about the protection of human rights for LGBT people with President Putin in their meeting at the G20 in September. The Russian authorities have given assurances that discrimination against sexual minorities is forbidden by their constitution, but we remain concerned about the protection of human rights for LGBT individuals and communities in Russia and about the impact of legislation banning the promotion of non-traditional sexual relations to minors on Russia’s LGBT community.
Lord Lexden (Con)
I am grateful to my noble friend for confirming the Government’s opposition to oppressive new laws in Russia. What assessment have the Government made of the impact of the new laws on the lives of ordinary homosexual people and on the working of the civil organisations dedicated to promoting their welfare and interest? What steps are the Government taking to discourage other countries in the region from enacting similarly oppressive laws?
Baroness Warsi
My Lords, these laws have a huge impact on individuals and communities, in the way in which these communities feel that they can exercise their right to freedom of expression and peaceful assembly. The NGOs on LGBT issues with which we have been working in Russia and other regions say that this has led to concerns of an increase in homophobia and homophobic attacks. It has also meant that the operating environment for NGOs that work in the LGBT field is much more difficult. We have been raising this matter for a number of years, since these laws first started to be enacted on a regional or provincial level, before it became national law. During 2013-14, we have invested £1.3 million specifically into NGOs working to protect human rights, of which LGBT is one area.
Lord Morgan (Lab)
My Lords, the Orthodox Church has been remarkably bigoted in dealing with this issue. Does the Minister have any particular information on protests made by churches in Russia against this cruel persecution of a minority?
Baroness Warsi
I am not sure how the Orthodox Church, or any faith communities, have responded on this issue. However, the noble Lord will be aware that this issue can be seen in the light of our concerns on general human rights issues in Russia. He will be aware that Russia was one of our countries of concern referred to in our human rights report, and concerns about LGBT issues formed a large part of that.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD)
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that when President Putin says that there is no discrimination against homosexual people in Russia, we need to press him in discussions to enshrine in law non-discrimination regarding minors’ access to information? Moreover, what discussions are Her Majesty’s Government having with the Council of Europe on Russia’s membership, given that Russia has repeatedly been found to be the worst country for gay people to live in of the 49 countries that are members of the Council of Europe?
Baroness Warsi
First, I assure my noble friend that we take these matters incredibly seriously. The subject was raised by the Prime Minister at the highest level at the G20 in St Petersburg, and it was also raised at the margins. It was raised a few weeks later by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary with Foreign Minister Lavrov at the UN General Assembly in New York. We also have an annual human rights dialogue; in fact, we are one of the few countries, if not the only country in the European Union, to have that particular dialogue with Russia. We had our latest dialogue in May of this year and, in that, we raised the issue of LGBT issues. So it is a matter that we continue to press on, and one that we have raised at both a political and an official level.
Lord Laming (CB)
My Lords, will the noble Baroness remind the House that the Russian Parliament recently passed legislation that is punitive towards gay people and that there can be no question of gay people being accorded equality in that country while this legislation remains on the statute book?
Baroness Warsi
It may be inappropriate for me to comment on a particular piece of legislation in a particular country but it seems fairly obvious from an initial reading of how this law has been drafted that it is in stark conflict with what the Russians say is part of their constitution.
Lord Bach (Lab)
My Lords, Amnesty International’s report, Freedom under Threat, which I am sure the noble Baroness knows well, highlights the provocation and discrimination sustained by those in Russia who are protesting against the recent legislation which has just been referred to. Does the Minister believe that the representations made by Her Majesty’s Government have had any effect whatever on the Russians, and what do the Government intend to do next about it? Is the noble Baroness aware—I am sure that she is—of the very strong feeling not just in this House but in the country which expects the Government to use every opportunity to point out to the Russian Government that their behaviour in the field of human rights generally, and on LGBT rights in particular, is completely unacceptable?
Baroness Warsi
As the Minister with responsibility for human rights I can assure the noble Lord that this is an area that I not only cover as part of my brief in my job but take incredibly seriously. He will also be aware of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister’s personal commitment to these issues. This is not a matter on which we just make submissions in the margins of another meeting, it is something that we put to the front and centre in our meetings, which is why the Prime Minister has raised it at the highest level. I think that noble Lords will accept that it is our job to communicate and stress the strength of feeling not only in this House but across the country, as the noble Lord said, as well as to do the project work needed to support the NGOs which are doing the very difficult work on the ground.
Lord Taverne (LD)
My Lords, will the Government also protest in the strongest possible terms about the appalling treatment of Greenpeace protestors?
Baroness Warsi
Noble Lords will of course be aware of the issue of the “Arctic Sunrise”—it has been in the headlines for a number of weeks—whose 30-person crew includes six Brits. The Foreign Secretary raised the issue with Foreign Minister Lavrov at the UN General Assembly and subsequently wrote to him in October. The Foreign Secretary has also met Greenpeace’s executive director, and officials are in regular contact. I can assure the House that extensive consular assistance and support has been provided to these individuals. However, at this stage we are treating it as a consular matter as we feel that that is the best way of progressing it to a positive outcome.
Lord West of Spithead (Lab)
My Lords, I am sure the Minister is aware that the Russians treated with acclaim the victory by Lord Nelson at Trafalgar 208 years ago today, and I wonder whether the Royal Navy could maybe come to the nation’s assistance again. The coalition has been asking people to buy HMS “Illustrious”—which is the third “Invincible” class carrier, the other two having been scrapped earlier this year. I wonder if the House authorities might like to buy it to berth alongside the Palace of Westminster and accommodate the huge number of new Peers being created.
Baroness Warsi
My Lords, I have a huge amount of time and, indeed, a soft spot for the noble Lord, but I think that that question is probably outside the remit of this particular Question.
Syria: Humanitarian Aid
(10 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Quin
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have held with other governments about increasing humanitarian aid to Syrian refugees.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)
My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lady Quin, and at her request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in her name on the Order Paper.
Baroness Northover (LD)
My Lords, the Government are in regular contact with other Governments about increasing humanitarian aid for Syrian refugees and Syrians in need within Syria. The UK led a lobbying effort at the G20 and the UN General Assembly last month, which raised a further $1 billion in pledges from the international community.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness and welcome the extent of the aid provided so far by the Government. There are some 2 million refugees outside Syria and some 4 million have been displaced by the conflict but there is also a need to get immediate assistance to those trapped in besieged areas and facing starvation. How can we best respond to the UN call today seeking to secure a halt to the fighting to allow desperately needed aid to get through?
Baroness Northover
I thank the noble Lord for his tribute to the Government for what they are doing. It is a dire situation, which noble Lords will see from the figures. A year ago there were 230,000 refugees from Syria. Now there are 2.1 million refugees—an eightfold increase. Clearly we have to work extremely hard to make sure that the pledges to which countries have committed themselves are delivered. We are pleased that the figure has reached the £1 billion mark but it is not sufficient and it is extremely important that humanitarian access is granted within Syria so that aid can get in where it is needed.
Baroness Hollins (CB)
Can the Minister tell the House how Her Majesty’s Government are assisting UK-based charities working in Syria—such as Hand in Hand which featured recently on “Panorama”—either financially or by supporting links with international NGOs? Hand in Hand, which includes senior NHS doctors, is providing medical aid directly into areas outside government control—areas which international NGOs are unable to access. Will the Minister meet Hand in Hand directors with me to explore possible assistance to their work?
Baroness Northover
I am very happy to meet representatives from Hand in Hand, and I note what David Nott said over the weekend about his experiences in Syria—the stories that he was reporting back were absolutely horrendous. The Government work very closely with a number of NGOs in this area and a range of organisations is working to try to get humanitarian aid in.
Lord Avebury (LD)
My Lords, I am sure the whole House will welcome the extra £100 million recently allocated to humanitarian aid to Syria by the Deputy Prime Minister. What additional efforts does the Minister think could be made to persuade our European Union colleagues at the Commission to match the efforts that we are already making? The UK’s £500 million contribution is by far the largest of any European Union nation. Can we not persuade our colleagues to match that?
Baroness Northover
Yes, the Deputy Prime Minister led the UK delegation to the UN General Assembly and I am very pleased indeed that we were able to pledge, as my noble friend has said, a further £100 million at the General Assembly, bringing us up to the level of £500 million and making us the second largest bilateral donor. The European Commission has contributed $1.2 billion since the beginning of the Syria crisis and we have been working across the EU to encourage all countries to contribute.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab)
Can the noble Baroness tell the House what humanitarian aid is being given to the Christian community in Syria? In particular have the Government made representations about the disappearance of Archbishop Yohanna of Aleppo who disappeared earlier this year on 23 April?
Baroness Northover
There are a number of groups suffering in particular in Syria and the noble Baroness is right to highlight the particular plight of Christians. We are emphasising their particular need. I will get her an update on the situation in relation to the Archbishop but she can be assured that the UK Government are well aware of the situation affecting these groups within Syria.
Lord Wright of Richmond (CB)
Can the noble Baroness tell the House what steps we are taking to re-establish direct bilateral contact with the Syrian Government in Damascus, if only to enable us to help persuade President Assad’s Government to provide secure access for much needed humanitarian assistance within Syria itself?
Baroness Northover
The noble Lord will know about the UN Security Council presidential statement issued about three weeks ago seeking better humanitarian access and putting particular responsibility upon the Syrian Government. There are a number of things which the Syrian Government could do to make sure that visas are granted more readily and that travel permits are granted so that humanitarian aid can get in. Efforts are being taken forward to try to bring forward the peace process and I am sure he will know that UN Special Envoy Brahimi is leading an intensive period of preparation to try to ensure that there is a meeting in November for the Geneva II process.
Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead (Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister agree with Medecins Sans Frontières, which says that the Syrian people are now presented with the absurd situation of chemical weapons inspectors freely driving through areas of desperate need while ambulances, food and drug supplies are being blocked? Is it not the case that two weeks after the Security Council agreement on access for humanitarian aid, nothing has actually changed?
Baroness Northover
The noble Baroness highlights a key point. It is obviously encouraging that the chemical weapons inspectors have been able to get into the areas they wished to visit, but it has also been quite striking that humanitarian aid has not necessarily been able to get into those same places. That is one of the reasons why the international community is putting particular stress on trying to encourage the Syrian Government to grant those rights of passage for humanitarian reasons.
NHS: EU Legislation
(10 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Kakkar
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what recent assessment they have made of the impact of European Union legislation on training and service delivery in the National Health Service.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe) (Con)
We are aware that concerns exist about the impact of EU legislation on some areas of training and service delivery within the NHS. That is why we recently announced the review of the implementation and impact of the working time directive, to be led by the Royal College of Surgeons. This follows the balance of competences review for health, which included concerns about the impact of this directive on continuity of care and doctors’ training.
Lord Kakkar (CB)
My Lords, I declare an interest as professor of surgery at University College London. In 2010, the then Secretary of State for Health and Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills were due to commence robust negotiations with our European partners on the working time regulations. Despite the welcome announcement of the current Health Secretary’s further review of the impact of those regulations, do the Government stand by their commitment to repeal this detrimental legislation as it applies to healthcare? This is now increasingly cited by coroners as having contributed to patient harm. Moreover, our trainees tell us that it is now undermining their ability to acquire the necessary skills for future independent consultant practice. Patients and doctors alike now blame these regulations for a destruction of professionalism in our health service.
Earl Howe
My Lords, it is the impact on our health service that we want the Royal College of Surgeons to look at specifically. In the coalition agreement, we committed to limiting the application of the working time directive in the UK, including in the NHS. Nobody wants to go back to the bad old days of tired doctors, but it is important for the working time directive to have more flexibility for a health service that operates on a 24-hour basis. Increased flexibility for the NHS would allow it to take account of local needs and practices, while at the same time ensuring the health and safety of the workforce. We stand prepared to work with partners in Europe to that end. I believe there is strong support in the NHS for this.
Lord Ribeiro (Con)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for acknowledging the role that the president of the Royal College of Surgeons is playing to ensure that the European working time directive is not having an adverse impact on patient care. In the United States, the duty hours that surgeons work are limited to 80, although flexibility has been introduced into their working so that trainees nearing independent practice can work more flexibly and for more hours. As 80% of surgical trainees currently work more than 48 hours a week, is it not time that we applied some flexibility to the European working time directive?
Earl Howe
My noble friend speaks, as always, with great authority on these matters. The independent review is by clinicians and of clinicians, looking specifically at the issues associated with the implementation of the directive. It means that any issues that are identified and can be acted on without needing to change the law—which was one of the points underlying my noble friend’s question—could lead to swift and effective action. In addition, my noble friend might like to know that the review will be looking at how the directive interacts with the junior doctors’ contract. It is intended to provide a sensible front-line view of doctors’ working hours.
Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister accept that the idea that the working time directive is universally denigrated by all members of staff of the National Health Service is very far from the truth? Does he also accept that there is a need to protect patients and the health of doctors themselves by having something along the lines of the working time directive, and that the Royal College of Surgeons ought to accept that that is the case?
Earl Howe
My Lords, I stress that this is not a step to find a way to make doctors work longer. As I said a moment ago, it is clearly in nobody’s interest to go back to the days when doctors were constantly tired and worked excessive hours. However, when senior clinicians tell us, as they have, that the implementation of the directive is harming patient safety and doctors’ training, we have to take that seriously. That is why we want to take a closer look at how this directive is impacting on the ground.
Lord Willis of Knaresborough (LD)
My Lords, I welcome my noble friend’s very strong comment that the working time directive has huge benefits, as well as clearly having challenges. However, in terms of this review of surgeons’ training, will he also look at the fact that for at least two and a half days a week most of our theatres are absolutely empty, with no activity taking place? One of the big requirements is that there should be more activity in terms of elective surgery within our hospitals—which would itself help the whole training issue.
Lord Crisp (CB)
My Lords, this argument has been going on for a very long time—at least a decade. Will the Minister let us know when he expects the review to report and when he thinks that some action will come about as a result of it?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, I refer noble Lords to my health interests in the register. The noble Earl will be aware that this country has introduced a strong process of revalidation of doctors and continuing professional development. Can he assure the House that doctors who come to practise in the UK from other European countries will have been subject to as strict a regime as that in the UK?
Earl Howe
My Lords, the noble Lord will know that doctors from the European Economic Area are deemed to have professional skills equivalent to those of doctors trained in this country. When doctors come from outside the European Economic Area, then, indeed, the GMC puts procedures in place to ensure that the skills of those professional people match those that we would wish to see in the National Health Service.
Viscount Bridgeman (Con)
Can the Minister confirm that the proposed amendment to the free movement directive now gives competent authorities the powers to test EEA nurses for English proficiency before they get clearance to practise in the UK? If that is so, is it, in the Minister’s view, adequate in the interests of patient safety?
Earl Howe
My Lords, my department is absolutely committed to ensuring that regulated healthcare professionals are not able to work in the NHS without adequate English skills. The revision of the mutual recognition of professional qualifications directive, which impacts on registrations from within the EEA, clarifies that regulators such as the NMC can undertake proportionate language controls on professionals following registration.
Housing: Under-occupancy Charge
(10 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Hollis of Heigham
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what advice they give to social landlords whose tenants have fallen into arrears as a result of the under-occupancy charge.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab)
My Lords, I declare an interest as chair of a housing association and I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud) (Con)
My Lords, social landlords had more than a year to design, develop and deliver strategies to mitigate the effects of under-occupancy and were advised to start building responsibly to avoid driving people into arrears. Prior to implementation, the Government, working collaboratively with the Chartered Institute of Housing, produced specific guidance for landlords, Making It Fit, and continue to fund its Making Best Use of Stock team, which assists landlords to find suitably sized accommodation for tenants. Fact sheets containing advice on home swaps, money management, payment options and how to look for and find work have also been issued. To be clear, 60% of those requiring social housing are single or couples without children, but over the last decades landlords have ignored this fact, resulting in larger homes being built, even though the greatest need is for smaller properties. Finally, £190 million has been provided this year to help vulnerable claimants.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, a recent sample shows that half of all affected tenants are in arrears and that three-bed houses are now hard to let. Do we move tenants to smaller accommodation? It cannot be done because there is none. Do we increase income with discretionary payments? For the 90% who are ineligible, it will not be done. Do we allow arrears to soar? As this could send us into the red, it should not be done. Or do we evict vulnerable families from their three-bed homes into temporary accommodation, back into an unwanted, hard-to-let, three-bed house? That can be done if we ignore the futility, misery and cost. Which of these options does the Minister favour?
Lord Freud
My Lords, it is simply premature to come to any conclusions as to the level of arrears. We will, of course, provide that information when we have the kind of reliable information that this House requires me, as a Minister, to deliver. There have been various surveys, but the samples are just too narrow. There are 1.4 million one-bedroom properties in the social rented sector and we are looking to have those managed more efficiently. I remind noble Lords that the scare stories about what would happen to our LHA reforms were very similar to the kind of stories that are being propagated now and we have not seen any poor reaction in terms of homelessness as a result of those reforms.
Lord Best (CB)
My Lords, in relation to the evidence that the Minister mentions, can he give us an update on the consultation with me and others that he promised when noble Lords rejected the so-called bedroom tax repeatedly and firmly? When will that research programme be the subject of consultation with us? When is it likely to be concluded? Will he accept the evidence if it shows that what he calls the “scare stories” turn out to be true and that a good deal of disruption and hardship are caused by this measure?
Lord Freud
My Lords, as the noble Lord knows, an elaborate programme of research is going on around this measure and will take place over a two-year period. Regular reports will be provided. I believe that the first interim reports are coming out in the spring. I will, of course, be pleased to talk to the noble Lord about the research and will give a great deal of attention to what we find. If there are concerns, we will match them. As noble Lords will know, we have made changes to the discretionary housing payments system this year to reflect some of the early concerns that have developed and we have found an extra £35 million for that.
Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)
My Lords, I declare an interest as chair of Housing 21, a housing association. There is evidence that local authorities are not fully using the Government’s transitional support funding for ending the subsidy for under-occupied housing. What action are the Government taking to ensure that those in need get the support that the Government have provided for them?
Lord Freud
My Lords, my noble friend is right. Our very early soundings are that some local authorities are not spending all their DHP. Clearly, we provide that funding in order that vulnerable people are protected through this transition period and we have been monitoring that very closely.
The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds
My Lords, is the Minister aware of the evidence that people who are leaving accommodation to avoid the under-occupancy charge are being rehoused in private accommodation at greater cost? What steps are being taken to monitor this?
Lord Freud
My Lords, as I have just pointed out, we are undertaking an elaborate set of research programmes to understand this. If a family moves into private accommodation, which is more expensive, it does not necessarily mean that there is a net cost, because it frees up larger accommodation in the social rented sector to which a family can move from the expensive private sector.
Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (Amendment: Qualifying Offences) Order 2013
(10 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Taylor of Holbeach
That the draft order laid before the House on 8 July be approved.
Relevant document: 8th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. Considered in Grand Committee on 15 October.
Armed Forces and Reserve Forces (Compensation Scheme) (Consequential Provisions: Primary Legislation) (Northern Ireland) Order 2013
(10 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Astor of Hever
That the draft order laid before the House on 27 June be approved.
Relevant document: 7th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. Considered in Grand Committee on 15 October.
Jobseeker’s Allowance (Domestic Violence) (Amendment) Regulations 2013
(10 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Freud
That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 8 July be approved.
Relevant document: 8th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. Considered in Grand Committee on 15 October.
European Union (Approvals) Bill [HL]
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)
My Lords, this amendment corrects a reference in the Bill to an EU document, the number of which has changed during the passage of the Bill. I beg to move.
Care Bill [HL]
(10 years, 6 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe) (Con)
My Lords, the reason for this Motion is that the Government wish to give the House the opportunity to amend the order in which we take our Report stage debates today. Last week, I became aware of some concern that my Amendment 168A, relating to trust special administration, would have fallen for debate at a rather late hour this evening. I assure the House that this was not by design and that the Government are more than happy to facilitate an earlier debate. Clearly, the issue of trust special administration is an important one. I understand the wish of some noble Lords to debate it fully in prime time. Accordingly, the Motion in my name would allow the debate on Amendment 168A to be taken at the start of today’s proceedings on the Bill. I should also indicate to the House that in response to the request put to me last week by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, I would have no objection to relaxing the rules of debate that normally apply on Report so that this amendment can be debated in full if that, too, is the desire of the House. I beg to move.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, following my intervention last week. I made a similar proposition to the usual channels last Thursday, only to be told that there would be dire consequences for everything that your Lordships hold dear. I am glad that sense has none the less prevailed. I very much welcome this and support the noble Earl in his Motion.
Care Bill [HL]
(10 years, 6 months ago)
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16:16 - Division on Amendment 168B - Ayes: 176 / Noes: 242 - Amendment 168B disagreed.
17:20 - Division on Amendment 143A - Ayes: 194 / Noes: 220 - Amendment 143A disagreed.
18:22 - Division on Amendment 144 - Ayes: 194 / Noes: 204 - Amendment 144 disagreed.
“Trust special administration: powers of administrator etc.
(1) In section 65O of the National Health Service Act 2006 (Chapter 5A of Part 2: interpretation) (the existing text of which becomes subsection (1)) at the end insert—
“(2) The references in this Chapter to taking action in relation to an NHS trust include a reference to taking action, including in relation to another NHS trust or an NHS foundation trust, which is necessary for and consequential on action taken in relation to that NHS trust.
“(3) The references in this Chapter to taking action in relation to an NHS foundation trust include a reference to taking action, including in relation to another NHS foundation trust or an NHS trust, which is necessary for and consequential on action taken in relation to that NHS foundation trust.”
(2) In section 65F of that Act (administrator’s draft report), in subsection (1), for “45 working days” substitute “65 working days”.
(3) After subsection (2C) of that section insert—
“(2D) Where the administrator recommends taking action in relation to another NHS foundation trust or an NHS trust, the references in subsection (2A) to a commissioner also include a reference to a person to which the other NHS foundation trust or the NHS trust provides services under this Act that would be affected by the action.”
(4) In section 65G of that Act (consultation plan), in subsection (2), for “30 working days” substitute “40 working days”.
(5) After subsection (6) of that section insert—
“(7) Where the administrator recommends taking action in relation to another NHS foundation trust or an NHS trust, the references in subsection (4) to a commissioner also include a reference to a person to which the other NHS foundation trust or the NHS trust provides services under this Act that would be affected by the action.”
(6) In section 65N of that Act (guidance), after subsection (1) insert—
“(1A) It must, in so far as it applies to NHS trusts, include guidance about—
(a) seeking the support of commissioners for an administrator’s recommendation;(b) involving the Board in relation to finalising an administrator’s report or draft report.”(7) In section 13Q of that Act (public involvement and consultation by NHS Commissioning Board), at the end insert—
“(4) This section does not require the Board to make arrangements in relation to matters to which a trust special administrator’s report or draft report under section 65F or 65I relates before the Secretary of State makes a decision under section 65K(1), is satisfied as mentioned in section 65KB(1) or 65KD(1) or makes a decision under section 65KD(9) (as the case may be).”
(8) In section 14Z2 of that Act (public involvement and consultation by clinical commissioning groups), at the end insert—
“(7) This section does not require a clinical commissioning group to make arrangements in relation to matters to which a trust special administrator’s report or draft report under section 65F or 65I relates before the Secretary of State makes a decision under section 65K(1), is satisfied as mentioned in section 65KB(1) or 65KD(1) or makes a decision under section 65KD(9) (as the case may be).”
(9) In section 242 of that Act (public involvement and consultation by NHS trusts and foundation trusts), in subsection (6)—
(a) for “65I, 65R or 65U” substitute “or 65I”, and(b) for the words from “the decision” to the end substitute “the Secretary of State makes a decision under section 65K(1), is satisfied as mentioned in section 65KB(1) or 65KD(1) or makes a decision under section 65KD(9) (as the case may be).”(10) In Schedule 14 to the Health and Social Care Act 2012 (abolition of NHS trusts in England: consequential amendments)—
(a) after paragraph 4 insert—“4A In section 13Q(4) (public involvement and consultation by Board), omit “makes a decision under section 65K(1),”.
4B In section 14Z2 (public involvement and consultation by clinical commissioning groups), omit “makes a decision under section 65K(1),”.”,
(b) in paragraph 15, after sub-paragraph (3) insert—“(3A) In subsection (2D), omit “or an NHS trust” and “or the NHS trust.”,
(c) in paragraph 16 (the text of which becomes sub-paragraph (1)) at the end insert—“(2) In subsection (7) of that section, omit “or an NHS trust” and “or the NHS trust”.”,
(d) in paragraph 24, after sub-paragraph (2) insert—“(2A) Omit subsection (1A).”,
(e) after that paragraph insert—“24A In section 65O (interpretation)—
(a) omit subsection (2), and(b) in subsection (3), omit “or an NHS trust”.”, and(f) in paragraph 35, omit the “and” preceding paragraph (d) and after that paragraph insert “, and(e) in subsection (6), omit “makes a decision under section 65K(1),”.””
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe) (Con)
This clause would clarify and make small changes to the trust special administrator’s regime in the light of our experience following its use at South London Healthcare NHS Trust and Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust.
Your Lordships will know that the regime for trust special administration was introduced by the previous Government under the Health Act 2009. The aim of the regime has always been to provide, with a tight timescale, a sustainable future for the services provided by a failed trust. The regime is only ever used as a last resort, when all other efforts by a trust and its commissioners to develop a viable model of care have been unsuccessful. There comes a point when time has to be called on local efforts to resolve the situation. Problems should not be allowed to fester, and it is not right that taxpayer resources could be diverted away from patient care to bail out failing organisations.
The regime enables a failed trust to be put into administration. The role of the trust special administrator is to take charge of the trust while the board is legally suspended and to develop and consult on recommendations in a draft report, before making recommendations in a final report that secure a sustainable future for services. The unsustainable provider regime for NHS foundation trusts was amended in 2012 to make it compatible with the extended regulatory role given to Monitor to operate the new licensing regime. The regime is used only on an exceptional basis at the most seriously challenged NHS providers, where other solutions or interventions have failed. It is time-limited, to focus efforts on delivering a sustainable solution with statutory deadlines for each stage of the process.
Use of the regime at South London and Mid Staffordshire suggests that two stages of the administration process need to be extended. The administrator would benefit from having more time to produce its draft report, and it would be better to have a longer consultation. The clause would therefore extend the time that the administrator has to complete these two key stages by giving 65, rather than 45, working days to produce the draft report and allowing 40, rather than 30, working days to undertake consultation on that report. The existing powers to extend the various stages of an administration beyond these statutory time limits will remain, as there will always be cases where an extension is appropriate.
Secondly, the clause would put beyond doubt the Government’s existing position that the remit of a trust special administrator is to make recommendations that may apply to services beyond the confines of the trust in administration and that the Secretary of State, for NHS trusts, and Monitor, for foundation trusts, have the power to take decisions based on those wider recommendations.
Where severe and prolonged problems exist, the administrator appointed must be able to propose a viable solution. It was always the Government’s intention that the interpretation of the words “in relation to” could include wider actions where necessary and consequential on primary recommendations about the trust in administration. This clarification of the scope of the administrator does not constitute a change of policy, is not retrospective, and is intended only to remove any uncertainty for the future.
NHS trusts, foundation trusts and other providers do not exist in isolation from each other. They are part of a complex, interdependent, local healthcare economy. Issues of clinical and financial sustainability nearly always cross organisational boundaries. Parliament must surely have intended originally that the legislation would enable an administrator to fix the problems that it was appointed to fix. If the only way to do this is to look beyond the confines of the failing trust then that is what it must do.
Thirdly, the clause would strengthen requirements for a trust special administrator appointed to an NHS foundation trust to seek the support of commissioners affected by their recommendations. A trust special administrator appointed to an NHS foundation trust is already required by statute to seek support for its draft and final recommendations from all commissioners of the trust in administration. This clause would extend that requirement so that the administrator would also be required to seek the support of commissioners of services affected by the administrator’s recommendations that are provided by other trust providers, with NHS England’s support being sought in the event that all commissioners did not agree.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
“( ) Before section 65F of that Act insert—
“65ZFZF Trust special administration: measures required before powers take effect
No power under this Act for the administrator to recommend taking action in relation to another NHS foundation trust or an NHS trust, or for any such action to be taken, shall be exercised until—(a) at least 5 years have passed after the passing of the Care Act 2013;(b) the Secretary of State has reported to both Houses of Parliament on the case for the operation of such a power; and(c) an order made by statutory instrument giving effect to the recommendations of such report has been laid before and approved by a resolution of both Houses of Parliament.””
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, I beg to move my Amendment 168B as an amendment to Amendment 168A moved by the noble Earl, Lord Howe.
We have just heard the noble Earl suggest that his amendment makes small changes and is a clarification of the existing law. However, it is my contention that the amendment is nothing short of a major change in policy on the reconfiguration of NHS services. Your Lordships are being asked to agree to it even though the case, or one of the cases, on which it is based—that of Lewisham hospital—is subject to an imminent Court of Appeal hearing. If it is accepted by the House, it is my view that NHS hospitals will be at risk of having services shut down without their agreement, without extensive consultation and without agreement from commissioners.
The changes made to the special administration regime by the government amendment would also extenuate the problems caused by having a different failure regime for NHS trusts compared with NHS foundation trusts—a point that my noble friend Lord Warner has consistently made.
Finally, to be effective, the changes could be construed as meaning that, for the first time, the Secretary of State has the power to issue directions to require the boards of solvent and successful clinical commissioning groups and NHS foundation trusts to take steps that they do not wish to take.
I see this not as a clarification of the law but as a major policy change that is at odds with the approach taken by the Secretary of State in the 2012 Act, when he repeatedly put his faith in local commissioning by local doctors. I make it clear that I am not opposed to changes in services: I support the major reconfiguration of services where clinical evidence supports it. Indeed, I should like to see much faster progress. When I and my noble friend Lord Warner argued this during the passage of the Health and Social Care Bill, the Government ploughed on with their extensive and fragmentary changes. The Government have belatedly come to realise that the structure they imposed is actually a barrier to progress—hence the amendment. It is also clear that, given the dire financial straits of many NHS organisations, the special administration process is likely to be used on an increasing basis. My concern is that giving so much power to trust special administrators is the wrong way to go about it. Indeed, evidence from Lewisham and Staffordshire suggests that it will often provoke widespread opposition and slow down progress.
As the noble Earl has said, the key change that the Government want to make is to ensure that the Secretary of State can act on recommendations that affect other NHS trusts, NHS foundation trusts or other providers and commissioners outwith the trust to which a special administrator has been appointed. How this would happen has been graphically illustrated in the case of Lewisham. The South London Healthcare NHS Trust was a badly performing trust with an accumulated deficit of £196 million. Consequently, a trust special administrator was appointed. In his draft report of 24 October 2012, he recommended that University Hospital Lewisham should no longer provide emergency care for critically ill patients who did not need to be admitted to hospital and that it should lose its obstetrics-led maternity unit.
The Secretary of State made some changes to those recommendations but Lewisham hospital would still have seen some significant downgrading in its services. This approach had no support locally and was blatantly unfair to the people of Lewisham. As Mr Justice Silber said when the Lewisham case came to the High Court:
“There are few issues which prompt such vociferous protest as attempts to reduce the services at a hospital which is highly regarded and which is much used by those who live in its neighbourhood”.
In the High Court, Lewisham Council and the campaign group argued that Lewisham hospital was not in the NHS trust over which the trust special administrator had been appointed and that the Secretary of State could make recommendations and decisions only in relation to the three hospitals in the South London Healthcare NHS Trust but not in relation to hospitals outside the trust area. The judge subsequently found in favour of Lewisham Council and concluded that the trust special administrator and the Secretary of State were not entitled to make recommendations and decide to reduce services at Lewisham because it was not a hospital over which the administrator had been appointed. It was situated in a totally different trust.
The appeal of the Lewisham decision by the Government will be held shortly. I find it remarkable that without hearing the outcome of the case they are seeking to amend the law in such a hasty way. The noble Earl said in his letter to us that the trust special administrator regime is,
“one way in which decisive action can be taken to deal with NHS trusts or NHS foundation trusts that are unsustainable in their current form”.
I agree, but surely not at the expense of well run trusts. Of course there need to be changes in the local health economy beyond just the trust that is failing; a trust does not fail in isolation but is part of a complex, interconnected system—change one bit and you impact on the other bits. However, the legislation was intended to deal with a simple case in which a trust had failed and was then broken up, with its assets being transferred or sold off. My contention is that this type of approach is not suited to major reconfiguration processes and should not be a back-door way to achieve unpopular changes.
I should also say that the government amendment seems to introduce a major anomaly around commissioning. A clinical commissioning group that commissions services from a failing NHS foundation trust is entitled to define and protect essential NHS services, but a clinical commissioning group that commissions services from a successful NHS trust can now see local services removed, even if that clinical commissioning group considers those services to be essential.
Further, the scheme proposed by the amendment appears to be legally ineffective. Neither a clinical commissioning group nor a foundation trust is subject to the direction-making powers of the Secretary of State—both are independent corporate bodies with boards which are responsible for making their own decisions. It is unclear to me how the boards of the clinical commissioning group and a foundation trust are supposed to be legally required to carry through any decision which is made within a special administration process relating to another body.
Nor is it clear what happens if the commissioners do not wish to commission services against the model that the special administrator has proposed. That is the case in Mid Staffordshire, where the special administrator’s proposals have not found favour with either the public or the clinical commissioning group. There appears to be no limit to how far recommendations might stretch to be “necessary” and “consequent”. It is clear that one trust could have many commissioners, and changes in services could impact upon many other trusts. The special administrator is being given a free hand to cast his net as widely as he wishes.
In conclusion, there are serious defects in the special administration process which the noble Earl’s amendment does little to resolve; indeed, it brings further anomalies and inconsistencies. However, my key concern about the amendment is that it removes the requirement to go through a properly defined and structured reconfiguration process, with extensive consultation with the local community. From all that we have learnt about successful reconfigurations, we know that they need to take a special form of open and honest leadership, a patient process of engagement and consultation, and proper consideration of the wider impact. The Government really should think again about this and my amendment gives them the opportunity to do so.
Baroness Warnock (CB)
My Lords, I have hesitated to speak before about the Lewisham situation, partly because I believe that some changes are needed in hospital provision over the whole country but mainly because, as a resident in the borough of Lewisham, I might be thought to be so biased that my opinions would carry no weight. However, the situation has radically changed with the introduction of the noble Earl’s amendment.
It is completely intolerable that the law should be changed and overturned in this hasty way, regardless of the fact that everybody admits that there is no fault to be found with the Lewisham hospital administration. It is an admirable hospital and its extensive and thorough accident and emergency section is particularly valued by a large number of people, for whom Lewisham is a centre to which they can get easily by various forms of transport, let alone by ambulance.
The contention that it would make little difference to the residents of Lewisham if this comprehensive A&E department were closed was risible. The tests to see how long on average it would take to get there were carried out at dead of night, and in various ways there was a great deal of false suggestion in the administrator’s conclusions. Above all, the clinical commissioners were by no means convinced and were not in agreement with the proposals.
The reason for speaking so strongly in favour of the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is that things have now moved far beyond Lewisham. I am speaking not only about the Lewisham situation; the proposals are perfectly general—the powers proposed for the Secretary of State could be used anywhere in the country.
What we have now is a radical change of power and, as other noble Lords have said, all hospitals are now under threat of closure, whether or not they are successful or administered with financial prudence, as Lewisham has been. It seems to me that this is an absolutely arbitrary overturning of what was found in court. Therefore, I beg noble Lords to think of this amendment in that light and not just to be concerned with the two particular trusts but with hospital provision all over the country.
Lord Warner (Lab)
My Lords, although I am Lord Warner of Brockley in the London Borough of Lewisham, I do not intend to speak about the Lewisham case.
I am conscious that this is a topic which can rapidly cause eyes to glaze over as we go into some of the processes involved here. At the heart of this there is a fundamental problem which is much deeper and more serious than when the 2006 Act was passed. That was seven years ago. This procedure of trust special administrators was set up to deal with a relatively small number of cases that might come along. It was not a system set up to deal with major overhauls of acute hospitals up and down the country.
We are now in a very different financial situation from when this earlier legislation was going through Parliament. You pays your money and you takes your choice as to who you believe about the black hole that there will be in the NHS finances at the end of this decade. If you want to believe Sir David Nicholson, the outgoing chief executive of NHS England, it will be £30 billion. A number of noble Lords may be shaking their heads because they do not wish to believe him, but he says £30 billion. If you want to believe the Nuffield Trust, it will be somewhere north of £40 billion. If you want to consider the more measured estimate last week from the chief executive of Monitor, it will be £12 billion, but that assumes a level of efficiency savings which seem somewhat like fantasy football in terms of their deliverability. It is likely to be a lot more than £12 billion.
These are numbers which no one was even thinking about when the trust special administrator system was set up. I have some sympathy with the Government’s position because there is no doubt that we have a large and growing number of clinically and financially unsustainable acute trusts. The Government have a real problem that they are trying to tackle. However, I suggest that this particular way of tackling it is not the best way, because it is trying to adapt a system which was produced for a relatively small number of cases into a whole system set of arrangements. It has some curious quirks. It seems to treat clinical commissioning groups which are commissioning from foundation trusts differently from those commissioning from non-foundation trusts. I am not going to risk eyes glazing over by talking about this, but this set of proposals does not seem to treat different clinical commissioning groups in exactly the same way.
We must also start to engage the public in the scale of changes that will have to be made to the NHS in order to make it sustainable. It is not just that black hole issue; it is the clinical sustainability of some of its services. We are already finding difficulty in staffing A&E departments. There is a set of issues around whether the manpower would be sufficient to enable us to keep 24/7 acute specialist services on the same number of sites. I would suggest to the Minister as humbly as I can that you are not going to deal with the scale of the problem with this set of arrangements. For the sorts of reasons that the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock, set out, even if you have this set of arrangements on the statute book, you are going to end up with many cases of Lewisham hospital writ large, dotted around the country. There is nothing in these provisions which really ensures that the wider public debate about the reshaping of these services takes place. They are a recipe for a very large number of one-off local rows on a major scale. The lawyers in this House must be rubbing their hands at the prospect of judicial review because a very likely outcome of all this is a large number of contested claims about the way the exercise has been done. There simply will not be the political cover for TSAs to be bold in their thinking.
The noble Earl said we want them to be able to give very effective consideration to the solutions that are needed. I suggest that if you are a trust special administrator and you think you will be kicked from Land’s End to the north-east because of the controversy around the proposals, that is not likely to produce whole-system changes. We now have to think about reviewing whether the TSA system is fit for purpose and meets the needs of the circumstances we now face. That is why, although I am not normally in favour of wrecking amendments, I agree with my noble friend Lord Hunt’s idea that we should have a pause and think again about the best way to reconfigure hospital services so that politicians and the public can engage with this issue and have the kinds of public debates that we badly need to have if we are to maintain the NHS in anything like the form it is today.
Baroness Meacher (CB)
My Lords, in part, I support the Minister because, as the noble Lord, Lord Warner, said, the Government have a problem. We know that for many years there have been attempts to close hospitals that need to be closed and it can take 15 years for that to happen. If the Government can come forward with a sensible, reasonable way of making those decisions, I will back it all the way. However, I find myself agreeing with the idea that a rather quick fix designed to achieve some solution to the Lewisham problem is not the way to do it. This is a national problem of considerable significance. I ask the Minister to take this away, think hard about it and come back with a good set of proposals to help this country close hospitals when they need to be closed. I would certainly be there behind him.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)
My Lords, although I sit in this House as Lord Kennedy of Southwark, I actually live in Lewisham, very close to the hospital. I agree with the comments made by my noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. This is a major change of policy being sneaked through the door by the Government. I am amazed that the Minister has brought his amendment today when we are just a few days away from the case being heard in the Court of Appeal—it will be heard next week, I believe.
I live close to the hospital and I refer noble Lords to my declaration of interest that on a voluntary basis I chair a small committee in the hospital. Whatever the problems of the South London Healthcare NHS Trust, I cannot adequately describe to noble Lords the sense of injustice, unfairness and hurt about what is being imposed by the administrator. We have a good local hospital, which is supported by the local community, delivers on its targets and objectives and is financially solvent, but the administrator came along and ripped the heart out of the hospital.
I contend that the purpose of this amendment is to try to stop the campaign that we have seen in Lewisham over the past few months. The campaign has united the community like never before. We had more than 25,000 people on our march. Streets are plastered with posters to save the hospital. Any political party would be envious of the posters up in people’s windows about this campaign. Our local campaign is chaired by a local GP and has brought together health professionals and the local community.
Will the Minister tell the House whether he has visited Lewisham hospital? I asked him that question earlier this year; I know that he had not been then and hope that he has been there since to see the amount of local support and what a good local hospital it is. More important, there is no support at all for what the Government propose today. I hope that the House will support the amendment of my noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and reject the amendment of the noble Earl.
Lord Patel (CB)
My Lords, I find myself in a strange position, because I agree in part with the amendment moved by the noble Earl and in part with the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, although that is not a solution.
I agree with the noble Earl that we need to find a way of reconfiguring NHS services. That reconfiguration cannot just be done through dealing with failing hospitals. It must include other hospitals which currently seem to be delivering good-quality services. We have to find a way out of that. The question is therefore whether the amendment allows us to move forward with reconfiguring NHS services. This is where I find myself more in tune with the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Warner, that it may not and that more is required.
Another concern I have is that the commissioners may express views. I would like some explanation of why the commissioners of the NHS foundation trust are to be treated separately from those who commission services from other hospitals. Another issue is that, if the commissioners disagree, NHS England would make the decision. That means that, ipso facto, they will agree with a special administrator—or they will not. In that case, what happens?
Another issue is consultation. Clearly, none of the configuration can occur smoothly unless the public are consulted. At what point will the special administrator consult both the public served by the failing hospital and the public served by the hospital that is not failing but whose services may require reconfiguration?
In summary, therefore, there is a need for amendments that will allow us to move forward with the reconfiguration of services throughout England. In that respect, I am with the noble Earl, but I wonder if he needs to go a bit further. He might consider looking at this further and tabling more amendments at a later stage.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)
My Lords, there is of course quite a long process still to be gone through on the Bill. As the noble Lord, Lord Warner, has said, it seems clear that there is a serious problem. It occurs to me that the special administrator’s primary emphasis will be on the trust to which he or she has been appointed. It is also obvious that changes to one trust may affect neighbouring trusts. Some solution to the problems in the special administrator’s trust may rely on something done in a neighbouring trust.
On the other hand, in that situation it is extremely important that concentration on the problems of the neighbouring trust is given considerable emphasis. Otherwise, the situation may be distorted by too great an emphasis on the special administrator’s trust at the expense of neighbouring trusts brought in to try to help. I wonder whether the wise course might be for us to accept the amendment, in so far as it goes, with an undertaking that, as the Bill proceeds in the other place, that matter would be seriously considered.
This may be an opportunity for legislation that will not quickly arise again. As the noble Lord, Lord Warner, said, there is a serious problem and it might not be wise to put it off indefinitely. I can see the difficulties and understand the situation of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, but it is very difficult to see how to sort this out today. On the other hand, it might be unwise to lose the opportunity to take a step forward in the hope of improving the situation in later stages of this Bill.
Baroness Barker (LD)
My Lords, during the deliberations on the Health and Social Care Bill, we spent a considerable amount of time discussing the details of the trust special administration arrangements, not least because it was the first occasion on which a legal process of that kind had been in legislation. We were aware then, and perhaps even more so now, that there has to be some power to bring these decisions to a conclusion. I find it remarkable that people have demonstrated in favour of keeping open Mid Staffordshire hospital, but they have. That is the power of emotion in respect of hospital care in particular.
However, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Warner, that this amendment is not quite what is needed, although there are some things in it which are to be welcomed. The process that needs to be gone through whenever a hospital is to be closed is to reassure the public that there will be access to alternative services. That is the absolutely critical point and it was with that in mind that I was somewhat taken aback to hear the Minister say that this procedure—and I bear in mind that, as he said, this is the last procedure in a very long process—takes away from the trust special administrator the requirement to involve the public and the patients. It seems to me that that is the very last thing that you would want to do if you were trying to have a process involving political engagement. I therefore ask him how the department came to that decision.
Earl Howe
My Lords, the matters we have debated today are of great significance. Of course—and I need to make this clear—we do not want to see any NHS trust or foundation trust fail, but equally we cannot shirk the responsibility to take action if and when that happens. In our taxpayer-funded health system, every pound counts and every pound should be put to best use, providing high-quality, effective care. Failed organisations squander resources. I do not want to be derogatory about them in other ways, but they usually take for themselves an unfair proportion of resources in relation to the local health economy more widely. Failed organisations, if nothing is done, have to be propped up by government bail-outs. That cannot be right, particularly at a time when resources are as constrained as they are now. We need an effective regime for tackling these issues.
The House has agreed with this on two previous occasions, passing legislation in 2009, during the time of the previous Government, and again in 2012 to provide failure regimes for trusts and foundation trusts respectively. We thought that those regimes would be effective, but experience now shows that they need clarification. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, suggested that this amendment represented a major change of policy and the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock, characterised it as an arbitrary overturning of the decision of the court in the south London case. The Government’s policy has been consistent. It is entirely unchanged. It is self-evidently not a change of policy. Had it been so, the recommendations made by the trust special administrator in south London would have been ones that we would have questioned as legally dubious in the department. On the contrary, we believe that the administrator’s recommendations fell squarely within the wording of the 2009 Act, which, as I mentioned earlier, used the phrase, “in relation to”. That was the phrase around which the judge’s ruling revolved, and it was a different interpretation of that phrase that the judge took.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is very knowledgeable about the heath service, but I am afraid that on this matter he is wrong. His amendment would render the failure regime quite useless. Five years is too long for a failed hospital and the patients it serves to wait for an effective remedy, to say nothing of the cost to the public purse. One of the provisions that the noble Lord has tabled would require the Secretary of State to justify making the power operational after the end of the five-year period, but is that not the debate we should have now? In any event, the effect of accepting his amendment would lead to an incoherent muddle. Either the House believes that a trust special administrator must be able to take the action necessary to resolve serious and prolonged problems at a trust or it does not. A long wait and a report will make no difference to the issues of substance. I urge the House to be decisive on this rather than doing what is effectively kicking a can down the road.
I know that fears have been expressed that the clause we are inserting would enable the Government to make free with every hospital around the country. That is not so. In fact, I submit to your Lordships that that suggestion is scaremongering. The powers could have been used for a long time if it were the Government’s intention to close down every hospital or lots of hospitals. The regime was designed by the party opposite, lest we forget, to deal with the specific circumstances of a trust in failure. It enables an external expert to be appointed as administrator to take a fresh look at the situation and, working with the trust and its commissioners, to develop recommendations for the future.
One needs also—I say this particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Warner—to recognise that trust special administration is only ever invoked when the normal processes for agreeing a reconfiguration have hit the buffers. In normal circumstances commissioners and providers in a locality get together and very often agree about the way services should be reconfigured to make them clinically and financially sustainable. In the case of south London and in the case of Mid Staffordshire that process has been going on for a long time. It is only because we reached an intractable position that administrators were appointed in those instances.
We have heard today that some aspects of our amendment provoke strong feelings, particularly the clarification—and it is a clarification—that a trust special administrator can make recommendations that include other providers where those recommendations are necessary for, and consequential on, his core recommendations. I bring noble Lords’ attention to those key words. Of course I recognise those views, but I do not share them. The clarification is vital for the failure regimes to be effective. It may be possible for the solution to the problems faced by a failed organisation to be found within the boundaries of that organisation, but it may not. Indeed, it is quite likely that it will not be. The health service is formed of a complex network of interdependent providers, all influencing one another. It is plain that making changes to one has a knock-on effect elsewhere. The amendment is a reflection of that reality.
I have a degree of sympathy with those who have argued that the effect of this could be unfair on the successful provider impacted by the failure of a neighbour. Such a step would, of course, be taken reluctantly. But I argue that it must be possible to take such a step if, and when, that is the only way of resolving the problem. The amendment would not apply retrospectively. The date of the court hearing in the south London case is therefore not relevant.
The rest of my amendment makes minor changes and I hope that they will be acceptable to the House. I hope more strongly that the amendment as a whole will find favour. It could be, as some noble Lords have suggested, that additional things need to be done. We do not believe that to be the case but I have heard the arguments put by a number of noble Lords that the amendment might need additions at some time in future. Our minds are open to that. But I beg noble Lords not to lose this opportunity of passing my amendment, as it matters a very great deal, not just in local areas but in the health service as a whole, in the interests of equity and fairness, which, after all, underpin the whole NHS. I believe that noble Lords should reject the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt.
These are going to be rare cases and they are always difficult. The problems by their very nature are intractable and serious. We must fix them and have mechanisms to do that in order to put services back on a sustainable footing. Otherwise, I respectfully submit, we ourselves will have failed. I beg to move.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister and other noble Lords who have spoken in what has been an excellent debate. My feeling about the debate is that the House has conclusively come to a view that further discussion needs to take place on the matter. I will come back to that in a moment.
I agree with the noble Earl that failed organisations squander millions of pounds. He is absolutely right to say that the need for them to be propped up by others has a deleterious effect on the NHS as a whole. We know that at least 20 NHS trusts or foundation trusts are in severe financial difficulty at the moment. It is likely that that number will grow in future. That is why there is considerable doubt that the special administration provisions will apply to only a very small number of cases. There is every possibility that, over the next two or three years, it will have to be used in many cases. That is why I am concerned that the provisions that the noble Earl is asking us to agree to today will be used to lead to configuration of services in which the interests of the failing trust will be put at the heart of the process rather than interests of the health service as a whole in a given area. That is the crux of the issue and that is why Lewisham is so important. It is a very good hospital—it was minding its own business—and then, suddenly, a special administrator came along and said that to solve the problem of the trust that it was dealing with it would have to reduce Lewisham hospital services. That is the crux of the argument and why we are concerned about the provisions being put forward by the noble Earl today.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, suggested that we should let the Government have their amendment today and it can then be dealt with in the other place. Of course, I always admire the other place’s assiduous attention to duty when scrutinising legislation, but the fact is that the other place is simply not geared up or able to do that. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, was rather rude about my amendment which was, of course, perfectly formed and correct in every way. Will the noble Earl, having listened to this debate, agree to pause and allow us to have further discussions—even between now and Third Reading in eight days’ time—to see whether it would be possible to come back with an amendment that is more suited to the circumstances he described? Is the noble Earl prepared to do that? If he were, I would welcome it.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I am more than willing to have discussions between now and Third Reading but I suggest to the House that it is necessary to pass the government amendment now and to look at whether we need to change that amendment at a future date. Our minds are open to that but, unless we pass the government amendment, we will have missed a historic opportunity to correct a vital lacuna in the law for the benefit of the NHS as a whole.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Earl. It would, however, be possible for him not to move his own amendment today, to allow for further discussions and to table a revised amendment at Third Reading. That is as far as I can go in offering the Opposition’s help in this matter.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, in view of that, I wish to test the opinion of the House.
“Chief Inspectors
After paragraph 3 of Schedule 1 to the Health and Social Care Act 2008 insert—“Chief Inspectors3A (1) The non-executive members must—
(a) appoint an executive member to be the Chief Inspector of Hospitals,(b) appoint an executive member to be the Chief Inspector of Adult Social Care, and(c) appoint an executive member to be the Chief Inspector of General Practice.(2) Each of those executive members is to exercise such functions of the Commission on its behalf as it determines.
(3) When exercising functions under sub-paragraph (2), an executive member must have regard to the importance of safeguarding and promoting the Commission’s independence from the Secretary of State.””
Earl Howe
My Lords, in moving Amendment 142, I shall speak to the other government amendments in this group, Amendments 143, 145, 146, 148, 149 and 150. This group relates to the ability of the Care Quality Commission to operate free from day-to-day intervention by Ministers. The amendments that I have tabled will place the CQC on a new footing of greater operational autonomy. They also clarify some of the arrangements for the new system of ratings to be operated by the CQC. I will outline the principle guiding the Government in tabling these amendments.
Last year we passed legislation that placed a duty on the Secretary of State to promote autonomy in the way that other bodies exercise their functions in relation to the health service. The changes that we are proposing build on this. They remove nine separate powers that the Secretary of State currently has to intervene in the day-to-day operation of the CQC. Additionally, they place the new chief inspector posts on a statutory footing, ensuring their longevity, with a specific duty to operate in a way that ensures the independence of the CQC’s judgments.
We are also introducing a new system of regular assessments of registered providers, which has no requirement for ministerial approval of the methodology. Each of these changes gives the CQC greater scope to get on with the day job without interference from Ministers. Why does this matter? The CQC has the key role in providing assurance of the quality of services provided to patients and service users. It needs to be able to inspect what it wants when it wants and to be free to report its findings as it wants. The proposed amendments and new clauses that I have tabled will see the Government relinquish a range of powers that intervene in the operational decisions of the CQC.
In addition to the amendments relating to the department’s powers to intervene in the work of the CQC and to place the chief inspectors on a statutory footing, I am also tabling a number of amendments relating to the performance assessment system operated by the CQC. The amendments clarify that the CQC will not undertake routine performance assessments of local authority commissioning but, rather, will be able to carry out special reviews of local authority commissioning under Section 48 of the Health and Social Care Act 2008. This will bring the position for commissioning by local authorities in line with that of NHS commissioning as put in place by the Health and Social Care Act 2012.
I will briefly set out two areas where the CQC’s freedom is not being enhanced and explain why. The changes that we are making will give the CQC greater freedom in its day-to-day work, as I have explained. When it comes to the CQC’s strategic role and activities, outside of its routine functions, it is appropriate that the Government maintain oversight of the commission.
The first area to which this applies is investigations of commissioning. The amendments we are making to Section 48 of the Health and Social Care Act 2008 make it clear that the CQC has the power to carry out a special review or investigation of commissioning—both of health commissioning by NHS England and NHS Clinical Commissioning Groups and of local authorities’ commissioning of adult social services. Such reviews will only be possible with the approval of the Secretary of State for Health, in the case of NHS commissioning, and the Secretaries of State for Health and Communities and Local Government in the case of local authority commissioning.
Secondly, I reassure noble Lords that we are maintaining the arrangements through which the commission is accountable to the Department of Health. We will retain a range of the conventional measures that exist to manage an arm’s-length body of the Government. The non-executive members of the CQC’s board will continue to be appointed by the Secretary of State, who will also maintain the power to intervene if the commission fails to properly discharge any of its functions. The department will also continue to hold the CQC to account for its financial and operational performance. I hope that these amendments will find favour with the House, and I beg to move.
Lord Warner
My Lords, I express my concern about the provisions of subsection (4) of the Government’s new clause on the independence of the CQC. My instincts are that this will do the absolute reverse of what the Government are seeking to do in terms of the CQC’s independence, which is why my Amendment 143A seeks to remove subsection (4). I do not disagree in any way with the other provisions in this set of government amendments and will explain my thinking. Subsection (4) effectively prevents the CQC investigating, of its own mere motion, the extent to which local authority commissioning practices and decisions on adult social care damage user interests and well-being.
In effect, if the CQC considers, after looking at the results of its work on providers of services, that there is a major stumbling block to good, sound provision of services that promote the well-being of users—the provision in Clause 1 of the Bill—it has to seek the approval of the Secretary of State before it can do any kind of generalised or thematic review of local authority commissioning of services. It has to seek the approval not only of the Health Secretary but of the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government. That seems a step backwards from the position we have now, where the CQC, as I understand it, could actually undertake these kinds of reviews. I do not see how the new subsection (4) helps the CQC to get to the root of a problem that may be affecting thousands of users of services. We have already seen that the providers were not the instigators of the policy of 15-minute home visits—it was the commissioners of services who instigated that policy. They required the providers to do that; they almost drove them along the path of not paying for the travel costs of the healthcare assistants who were making those visits. The institutional behaviour that has grown up and caused so much concern among the public and in Parliament has been driven by commissioners.
I suspect that we will have other kinds of such issues as we move through a decade of austerity in public services. It ought to be possible for the CQC to take the initiative and try to get to the bottom of those issues by carrying out a thematic review of the commissioning practices. That is why we need to take out subsection (4), which seems to be incompatible with the rest of the provisions in this set of government amendments, which I thoroughly welcome. All credit to the Government for removing these requirements on the CQC, but why are they spoiling the ship for a ha’porth of tar? Why are we pushing back on the ability of the CQC to decide that it wants to carry out a review of commissioning practices, when that is not in the best public interest? The Government should think again about this.
Baroness Greengross
My Lords, I will speak against government Amendments 145, 146 and 149, and speak at the same time to Amendment 147 in my name.
The government amendments would remove from the Bill a requirement for the CQC to conduct regular reviews of adult social care, as the noble Lord, Lord Warner, indicated. The Bill gives us an important opportunity to ensure that local government commissioning is effectively regulated. Last year’s EHRC homecare inquiry evidence pointed to serious concerns about some commissioning practices, which were found to put the human rights of older people in particular at risk. Accordingly, the EHRC’s recent review of the inquiry recommendations welcomed the fact that the Government had signalled their intention that the CQC should conduct regular reviews of adult social care commissioning.
Unamended, Clause 83 would reframe Section 46 of the Health and Social Care Act 2008 to empower the CQC to conduct periodic reviews of adult social care providers and English local authorities which provide or commission adult social care. It was very disappointing to see that the Government intend to remove clauses requiring the CQC to conduct these reviews through Amendments 145, 146 and 149, in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Howe. Taken together, these amendments would remove the proposed new requirements for the CQC to conduct regular performance assessments or periodic reviews of local authority social care commissioning, and amend existing provisions relating to special reviews and investigations by the CQC. That would leave it able to review providers and to ask the Secretary of State for permission to run special reviews when there has been a particular issue but unable to run ongoing reviews of how local authorities commission services. It seems counterproductive to be removing this power at the same time as committing to challenging bad commissioning from local authorities.
The proposals announced by Norman Lamb about CQC reviews the other day are very helpful. But, again, they seem to be focused solely on providers and what they are doing, not on the commissioners who have directed these providers. If the CQC is being made independent, should it be seeking approval for such reviews? I believe that the Government have tabled this amendment because they believe that the provisions in the Health and Social Care Act 2008 will be sufficient to keep local authority adult social care commissioning under scrutiny. However, my analysis is that the human rights of people receiving care would be better protected by retaining the requirement under the Care Bill as currently drafted so that the CQC should conduct regular periodic reviews of local authorities’ commissioning of adult social care.
Lord Low of Dalston (CB)
My Lords, I shall speak briefly against Amendments 145, 146 and 149. As the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, has just pointed out, these will take away the requirement that the CQC conduct periodic reviews of adult social care commissioning. These amendments seem perverse, coming hard on the heels of the latest care home scandal, revealed by the coroner’s finding that neglect contributed to the deaths of five residents at Orchid View care home in West Sussex.
Last week, the Close to Home report on human rights and home care by the Equality and Human Rights Commission concluded that some commissioning practices were likely to put at risk the human rights of older people receiving care. The Leonard Cheshire report, Ending 15-Minute Care, also points to problems with commissioning. It would therefore seem to make sense to leave Clause 83 unamended so that the CQC is empowered to oversee the practices of those commissioning adult social care and not just of those providing it.
Lord Deben (Con)
My Lords, in general terms, I support the government amendments. I am sure that my noble friend will want to answer the specific issue which the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, raised. However, I support the Government with a slight caveat. Similar parts of the localism agenda of the Government have likewise seemed to have devolved in order to encourage people to take responsibility. I agree that there is a problem of prescription—if I may use that word in the context of the health service—because we all want to add in to any freedom the particular issues about which we have a special concern. I have real sympathy with those for whom dementia is one of those issues; it certainly is for me. However, we have to guard against that because, in the end, it may produce an artificial series of priorities. In this case, it is much better for the Care Quality Commission to make its own mind up, because it is going to be responsible. I take a rather different view about the recent scandals, in that the commission has to take responsibility for the claims that have been made. If it has to take responsibility, it must have as much control over its agenda as it possibly can.
My concern is simply that the Localism Act claimed to give localities all kinds of new controls over their futures. Yet, this week, we again find the Secretary of State for DCLG calling in a locally agreed solar decision, one supported by the local authority and by the inspector, but turned down—for reasons which are extremely difficult to see—by the centre. I want an assurance from my noble friend that this is real devolution; that the powers which have been given will not be circumvented by some other mechanism within this Bill or other Bills. The purpose of such devolution is to enhance responsibility. My concern is that, often, people who are given and who claim to have responsibility find that the structures are so prescriptive that they cannot take that responsibility seriously. If the amendments are an attempt to ensure that they can carry through their responsibilities in a way which enables the country to look to them to do the job they ought to be doing, that is fine and dandy. However, I hope that we can have reassurance that this is a real change, and not something that is going to be circumvented for the convenience of some Secretary of State by other bits of this or other Bills.
Baroness Barker
My Lords, I draw to the House’s attention three questions put forward by Leonard Cheshire Disability. That organisation has worked extremely hard to support the Government in their stated objective of stopping 15-minute care appointments for older people, and its questions are worth following up.
First, why is it necessary to remove this power completely from the CQC; what will the CQC be stopped from doing by the absence of this power that otherwise it would not be? Secondly, the Government are committed to tackling poor commissioning and poor practice. If it is not going to be the role of the CQC to challenge local authorities on their commissioning practices, whose job will it be? Thirdly, is there any evidence that that power, as it exists, has been misused? Whatever one’s view about where responsibility should lie—the noble Lord, Lord Deben, made interesting points about that—those three questions are worthy of an answer when we come to formulate that view.
Baroness Pitkeathley
My Lords, I, too, am troubled by the seeming perversity of government Amendments 145, 146 and 149. The effect of the amendments seems to be to make it harder for the CQC to conduct investigations into local authority practices, particularly of commissioning. My understanding, from my hazy memory of when the CQC was set up, was that that was a particularly important function. Surely it has become more so, given the commitment to integration between services provided by the health service and those provided by local authorities. Was that not a key feature of establishing the CQC? The timing of this seems to be very odd—perverse, as the noble Lord, Lord Low, said—given the current huge concern about the way in which services are commissioned, the so-called 15-minute care visits, and so on.
Do the Government see a continuing role for the CQC in working with local authorities to improve the way that they commission services, or is this a retreat from the way the Government view the CQC? I was very involved in the discussions before the CQC’s relaunch, and understood that to be an important part of its function. The amendments appear to reduce the CQC’s power to help improve local authority commissioning and, because of that, its oversight of care quality. That is a great concern to us all, particularly when we are so concerned about the quality of the services which are commissioned.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, first, I welcome the amendments in relation to CQC independence. I would like assurance that it does what it says on the tin. I assume that the CQC will be regarded as independent. Perhaps it will be making fewer visits to the Secretary of State than it does at the moment. If there are weekly meetings, as is suggested, between the Secretary of State, the CQC, Monitor and NHS England, it is very difficult to believe that it is going to be truly independent. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating; but it is very difficult to know why the Secretary of State needs to see the CQC on such a regular basis if it is really an independent organisation.
Like other noble Lords, I am puzzled why the periodic reviews of local authority performance in commissioning adult social services have been removed from the Bill. I am surprised at the current policy, which is that, as part of wider moves to devolve responsibility for improvement in the sector, local authority commissioning performance and assessment will be led by councils. Presumably that means that it is government policy that the performance of the commissioning function of local authorities in adult social care will be reviewed by local authorities.
With the greatest respect for the noble Earl, Lord Howe, he knows that I am a great admirer of local authorities; I have served on two. However, like the noble Lord who spoke so eloquently earlier about solar decisions being called in by DCLG—to which, no doubt, the noble Earl will have a detailed response—I would not have thought that the commissioning performance of local authorities was thought to be so excellent that they can be left to themselves to police their performance in future.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I set out in my opening remarks the principle that lies behind the amendments that I tabled: namely, that the CQC should have more operational autonomy in its day-to-day activities. I sense that the principle is not inimical to many noble Lords. The amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, are in contrast to that principle and seek to tie the hands of the regulator and commit it to considering specific issues in all circumstances.
I say straightaway that the issues raised by the noble Lords are important: namely, how providers deal with the most commonly recurring conditions in specific settings, and how hospitals are implementing NICE guidance on the use of medicines. I do not argue that the CQC should not consider these issues. It has made clear in its consultation document, A New Start, that NICE guidance will play an integral role in its new performance-assessment methodology. That shows that we can trust the regulator to set its own priorities and to change them in response to new challenges. However, I submit that they should not be in the Bill.
Noble Lords questioned the CQC’s role in the oversight of commissioning of both health and adult social care. The noble Lord, Lord Warner, tabled an amendment that would have the effect of allowing the CQC to carry out a study of the efficiency of commissioning without seeking the approval of the Secretary of State.
I will explain the approach that we are taking. We are maintaining powers for the CQC to carry out reviews of commissioning in both health and social care. However, where this happens, we believe that it should be a special rather than a periodic review. My noble friend Lady Barker asked why. The main role of the CQC is to inspect and regulate service provision. The very name, CQC, reflects that. Where this leads the CQC to believe that there are problems with local commissioning, it will have the power to look into this further. However, any review of commissioning will impact on the CQC’s capacity to regulate service provision. Therefore, it is only right that this should be carefully considered and subject to ministerial agreement.
If a noble Lord were to ask me in what circumstances such agreement would be withheld, I would be in some difficulty because it is hard to imagine circumstances in which, if there were clear evidence of poor commissioning practices in an area, that agreement would not be forthcoming.
Special reviews can be tailored in all sorts of ways. They can be tailored to look at how commissioners are delivering specific policy objectives—for example, personalisation or service integration. The special review powers could be used to target the poorest performers, conduct thematic reviews across all local authorities—and I shall mention that again in a second—or perform reviews of a cross-section of local authorities. These reviews are a sophisticated power that allows the CQC to get to the heart of an issue in a way that periodic reviews cannot. If there is a good case for it conducting a review of that kind, it will not be stopped from doing so.
The noble Lord, Lord Warner, questioned the whole principle of ministerial sign-off for these special reviews. In fact, all special reviews and investigations by the CQC under Section 48 of the 2008 Act currently require the approval of the Secretary of State, so, in that sense, we are not doing anything radically new.
As I said, the CQC will be able to carry out a special review of commissioning where there is evidence that commissioning practices are contributing to the provision of poor care for patients and service users. A prime example of where the CQC could be tasked to conduct an investigation would be if it had evidence that 15-minute commissioning was taking place. That applies to any area where poor commissioning is identified as a contributory factor to the poor provision of care, either in terms of the quality of services or where access to services is raised as an issue by people who use them. I hope that that is reassuring. We are absolutely clear that the CQC will play a leading role in making sure that people receive acceptable standards of care. Indeed, only last week we announced that the CQC was considering the use of 15-minute care visits to vulnerable and elderly people. That is entirely appropriate and I emphasise that it will still have the power to carry out special reviews of that kind.
The noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, went further and said that it was counterproductive to remove the periodic review power for commissioning. She referred to statements about this made by my honourable friend, Norman Lamb, the Minister for Care and Support. I would simply say to her that retaining Section 46 functions—the periodic review functions—would offer the CQC nothing further in terms of enforcement powers against local authorities. Regardless of whether a review is undertaken under Section 46 or Section 48 in relation to an English local authority, the follow-up action remains exactly the same, with the CQC able to issue an improvement notice in the event of a local authority failing to discharge its functions and to recommend special measures to the Secretary of State in the event of substantial failings.
Our approach will allow the CQC to focus its efforts on those areas where there are concerns about commissioning, rather than on all commissioning, including commissioning where the normal oversight arrangements have revealed no overt problems. I should now like to come to those oversight arrangements, because the noble Baroness asked me who is responsible for the oversight of commissioners if it is not the CQC. We need to remember that commissioners are already regularly overseen, in a number of ways, in the new system. In the case of the commissioning of health services, the new NHS architecture has NHS England taking the central role in performance-managing the commissioning of NHS services. It ensures that clinical commissioning groups deliver the best possible services and outcomes for patients. The CCG assurance framework has been developed precisely to ensure that the CCGs are working to improve services and the quality of care for patients.
This new system is also more transparent. The CCG outcomes indicator set will support CCGs and health and well-being partners in improving health outcomes by providing comparative information on the quality of health services commissioned by CCGs and the associated health outcomes, and it will support transparency and accountability by making this information available to patients and the public. That is new. The first quarterly assurance conversations have now taken place between NHS England and CCGs. We expect that CCGs will want to make the outcome of these conversations available publicly as part of the commitment to transparency. The board will publish an annual assessment at the end of 2013-14, as required by legislation.
In addition, NHS England has its own governance processes in place, including the development of the direct commissioning assurance framework to demonstrate that it meets the standards required. As this is developed further, elements will be introduced to bring external scrutiny to its board and function. Ultimately, NHS England is held to account by the Department of Health for its commissioning activity against its delivery of the priorities set in the mandate.
That does not mean that there is no independent scrutiny of NHS commissioning. Health and well-being boards and local Healthwatch will ensure that the public voice is heard where there are concerns about the design and commissioning of services. Where local Healthwatch identifies concerns, it can raise these with Healthwatch England, which can in turn request the CQC to take action. Where the CQC has strong concerns that commissioning is having an impact on the quality and safety of provision, it can initiate—with ministerial permission—a special review or investigation. This is a much richer tapestry than perhaps some noble Lords have portrayed it.
On local authority commissioning, other measures in the Bill will strengthen the duties on local authorities in exercising their care and support functions. These include a new express duty to promote people’s well-being and a duty to shape local care markets to ensure that they are sustainable and diverse and that they offer high-quality care and support. They will not, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, fears, be left to themselves. To start with, the department will work with the local government and adult social care sector to produce statutory guidance on local authority commissioning of care and support. As well as this, the Government are committed to ensuring that there is a clear link between local authority commissioning and the outcomes and experiences of service users. That will be achieved through the adult social care outcomes framework, which will give local people, local Healthwatch and others robust and comparable information on councils’ performance. The Government are committed to making information on adult social care outcomes even more accessible and readily understood by people who use care and the wider public further to enhance transparency.
As with NHS commissioning, local Healthwatch and health and well-being boards will be able, through Healthwatch England, to raise concerns with the CQC about poor commissioning. This is independent, regular scrutiny that will be driven by the views of those with direct experience of service failings—the service users themselves. Although this system is in its early stages, I genuinely believe that the mechanics are in place to ensure that local authority commissioning is scrutinised regularly and in a way that it has not been before.
My noble friend Lord Deben referred to the Localism Bill and wanted assurance that the powers given to the CQC will not be circumvented in various ways. I can assure my noble friend that it is not our intention that the powers given to the CQC will be circumvented by other legislative proposals or any other means.
My noble friend Lady Barker asked why we are stopping the CQC doing what it does now, and whether there is any evidence that the power has been misused. As I am sure my noble friend will agree, the CQC plays a very important role in regulating and inspecting health and care services. It is the nation’s chief whistleblower on health, but to do its job properly it must be able to act without fear or favour from the government of the day. In a nutshell, we want to make it a stronger organisation by ensuring that it has the freedom and independence always to speak out about patient safety concerns, irrespective of who is in government. The removal of the need for the CQC to gain the approval of the Secretary of State for its programme of inspections and so on will particularly complement the role of the CQC’s new chief inspectors in providing an authoritative and independent judgment of the quality of health and social care services.
I would say to the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, that the main objective for the CQC, as set out in the 2008 Act, is centred on service provision. The objective is to protect and promote the health, safety and welfare of people who use services. It will do this, as it does at the moment, through looking at service provision and it will look at local authority commissioning when there is evidence of problems.
“Independence of the Care Quality Commission
(1) Part 1 of the Health and Social Care Act 2008 (the Care Quality Commission) is amended as follows.
(2) In section 48 (special reviews or investigations), omit subsection (7) (Secretary of State’s power to make regulations as to procedure for representations before publication of report).
(3) In section 54 (studies as to economy, efficiency etc), in subsections (1) and (3), omit “, with the approval of the Secretary of State,”.
(4) After subsection (2) of that section, insert—
“(2A) The Commission may not exercise the power under subsection (1)(a), so far as it relates to the activity mentioned in subsection (2)(d), without the approval of the Secretary of State.”
(5) In section 55 (publication of results of studies under section 54), omit subsection (2) (Secretary of State’s power to make regulations as to procedure for representations before publication of report).
(6) In section 57 (reviews of data, studies and research), in subsection (1), omit “, with the approval of the Secretary of State,”.
(7) In section 61 (inspections carried out for registration purposes), omit—
(a) subsection (1) (Secretary of State’s power to make regulations specifying frequency etc. of inspections), and(b) subsection (4) (Secretary of State’s power to make regulations as to procedure for representations before publication of report).(8) In section 83 (annual reports), omit subsection (3) (Secretary of State’s power to direct preparation of separate reports).
(9) In paragraph 5 of Schedule 4 (inspection programmes etc.), omit—
(a) in sub-paragraph (1) (preparation of programme etc.), “, or at such times as the Secretary of State may specify by order,”, and(b) sub-paragraph (3) (Secretary of State’s power to specify form of programme etc.).(10) In consequence of subsections (3) and (6), omit section 293(3) and (4) of the Health and Social Care Act 2012.”
Lord Warner
Lord Warner
My Lords, I listened carefully to the points made in this debate, particularly those made by the noble Earl, Lord Howe. I find this brave new world that we are moving into—of which he painted such an attractive picture—a bit puzzling. In the previous debate on the trust special administrator, we heard that the trust special administrator comes into play when this wonderful piece of architecture around commissioning has failed to deal with the job. The CCGs, supervised by NHS England, have simply not been able to deliver the changes that are required through the commissioning arrangements. In that area, the fall-back position which the Government insist that we have, is a trust special administrator, often to make good the deficiencies of an unsatisfactory commissioning set-up. The Government do not seem to have quite as much confidence in their new architecture for commissioning as the noble Earl suggested.
I turn to my amendment, which in effect maintains the status quo and the ability of the CQC to decide, in the light of the evidence it has had from its reviews of performance by providers, that there is a systemic problem with commissioning, the making of arrangements for adult social services. It seems odd that we should just leave this, in effect, to all 152 local authorities and put in place another hurdle to be got over, which is the approval of two Secretaries of State, before the CQC can actually act in the area of commissioning. We have to bear in mind that in the good old days, when I was a director of social services in local government, I had to look over my shoulder at the Audit Commission as to how we were behaving and making our arrangements. The Audit Commission, however, has gone the way of all flesh, so that is the end of another watchdog that was there to make sure, without being too obtrusive, that there could be thematic reviews of the way local authorities carried out their commissioning behaviour. I do not think that this architecture is robust enough to safeguard patients, and I wish to test the opinion of the House.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
“Staffing numbers and skills mix
The Care Quality Commission shall, in carrying out its functions, have regard to any official guidance on staffing numbers and skills mix.”
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, we come to an important amendment that relates essentially to staff ratios and guidance. I refer back to the Francis report, which focused very much, among many other serious matters, on staffing ratios and appropriate staffing numbers employed by NHS trusts.
We know very well that given the financial strain currently on the health service there is a large concern about whether there are enough staff on the wards to give appropriate care. Much of the concern around the quality of nursing care and the quality of care by healthcare assistants has related to essential aspects of care, including feeding, caring and all those things associated with what we would regard as appropriate caring. Underlining those things has been a concern as to whether enough staff are employed on the wards.
The noble Earl will know that the Francis report recommended that NICE should benchmark issues around appropriate staffing levels. He will also know that since the Francis report came out we have had the Keogh report into 14 trusts with outline mortality rates. It is interesting that one of the important conclusions of the Keogh review was the need to look seriously at staffing numbers. There seems to be a direct relationship between outline mortality rates and staffing levels on the wards and in clinical areas. We have also had the Berwick review, which the Government established, looking more generally at staffing levels within the health service. The review identified staffing levels as being one of the most important areas on which to focus when it comes to reviewing quality of care.
My amendment relates to ensuring that in its responsibilities the CQC has sufficient focus on staffing levels. This is a very important matter at a time when the health service is being presented with an increase in the number of patients and an increase in technology and complexity at the same time as having to operate on a budget that is just above a level budget. Things are very difficult indeed in the health service. Roughly 70% of the budget of NHS organisations is spent on staffing and expenditure on nursing and healthcare assistants forms perhaps the most important element of the staffing budget. Therefore, in some way we need to protect staffing levels in such circumstances. My amendment suggests that this is a very important role for the CQC to play and I hope that the Minister will be sympathetic to it. I beg to move.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, I do not want to speak before whoever supports the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, in his amendment, so I will sit down and speak after the noble Baroness.
Baroness Wall of New Barnet
My Lords, I did not intend for that to happen. Noble Lords may find this quite tedious, but I want to follow both the theme and the specifics of the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. As to the theme, his statement that things are difficult out there today is quite an understatement. Things are hugely difficult. I spent the morning with the TDA in my trust and heard very difficult messages around performance and, more importantly, around finance.
On the specific point about the suggested skill mix and the way of dealing with it in the Care Quality Commission, when we had our Care Quality Commission representative for Barnet and Chase Farm with us a couple of months ago—on a routine visit rather than an impromptu one—she set aside a session to talk to people about healthcare assistants. She got the same message that I have tried to impart to noble Lords on several occasions that the regulation of these people is hugely important. She was trying to understand what difference it would make. Patients who came in to listen at the event could not understand why healthcare assistants were not regulated in that way—although some thought that they were. There is also confusion about who they are and what role they play.
Healthcare assistants and nursing assistants are hugely important to the skill mix, but what they do and what they are able to do is paramount to being able to understand how their contribution to the skill mix really fits. I support the amendment. It can ensure that we once and for all deal with what it really means to be a healthcare assistant, what they can do and how they are regulated.
Baroness Emerton (CB)
My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 159 standing in my name and in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Willis and Lord Warner, and of my noble friend Lord Patel. Amendment 159 is about safeguarding patients. I championed safe staffing levels during the proceedings on the Health and Social Care Bill and during the proceedings on the Care Bill to date but failed to get my amendments accepted following a firm rebuttal by the Minister. Therefore, it was with a slightly doubtful mind that on 29 July, before we left for the Summer Recess, I put my name to the amendment before us today.
I then began nine weeks of reflection on whether I should or should not withdraw my name. I want to share the experiences of those nine weeks that have left my name on the amendment. I resolved to try to convince the Minister and noble Lords that if we wish to meet the challenges of high-quality, safe care acceptable to patients and their families in hospitals, we cannot ignore the contents of this amendment, set out under four headings. It recognises that it is only a small part of a very comprehensive Bill focusing on the acute hospital provider but it is nevertheless important that patients should be assured that all the measures that are taken will ensure their safety and the high quality of delivery of care to their satisfaction, resulting in a short length of stay, less likelihood of infection, reduced readmission rates and lower mortality rates.
Surely there is a cost-effective and care-effective way forward, despite the challenges it brings with it. The need to consider staffing levels in the community is equally important if we are to achieve an integrated service from primary healthcare and community care as well as from the acute providers in hospitals. Before the Recess I was involved in discussions about staffing levels with a number of very senior nurses, academics, the Royal College of Nursing and other organisations. The Bruce Keogh report focused on the seriousness of the situation, identifying 14 hospitals with high mortality rates and low staffing levels. That was quickly followed by the publication of the report by Professor Don Berwick, also just mentioned, on the safety of patients, which again referred to low levels of nursing staff as being a problem, but not measured against an evidence-based level.
The group of senior nurses formed themselves into the Safe Staffing Alliance, chaired by Elizabeth Robb, the chief executive of the Florence Nightingale Foundation, who had personally experienced introducing care bundles for five long-term conditions, which led to a dramatic reduction in mortality rates, and who was a member of the Keogh commission. The alliance busily engaged itself in examining the research evidence available internationally, and within the UK, on staffing levels. Its statement says:
“Under no circumstances is it safe to care for patients in need of hospital treatment with a ratio of more than 8 patients per registered nurse during the day time on general acute wards including those specialising in care for older people”.
Very soon after that, Robert Francis spoke to the CQC and referred to his original recommendation on staffing levels. He said, “So much of what went wrong in our hospitals is likely and indeed was in many regards the case in Stafford, due to there being inadequate numbers of staff either in terms of numbers or skills. The evidence given to my inquiry however was not sufficient to persuade me that there should be a minimum across the board staffing level, and I know not everyone agrees with that conclusion. But I could only act on the evidence I had and I was after all only dealing with the event arising out of a particular hospital so the inquiry for all the breadth in the end had limitations. However, evidence has been put forward to me since from the Safe Staffing Alliance to suggest there is a level below which it should be regarded a service is not safe, not that’s the adequate level of staffing but the level below which you cannot be safe. It does seem to me that it’s evidence that is worth consideration and therefore ought to be considered somewhere with regard to whether there is some sort of benchmark which at least is a bit like mortality rates an alarm bell which should require at least questions to be asked about whether it is possible for a service to be safe given whatever the staffing situation is. I just ask you to consider that as being a potential way to show real support for staff, some of whom are working in really challenging circumstances”.
In an interview reported in the press on 8 October, Robert Francis discussed the possibility of services being shut down if insufficient staffing levels were evident.
During September, I met directors of nursing from the teaching hospitals called the Shelford Group, who were grappling with staffing problems but in slightly different circumstances from those in other NHS trusts and NHS foundation trusts. I also discussed the issue with the director of nursing at Salford Royal NHS Foundation Trust, Elaine Inglesby, who gave evidence to the Health Select Committee that demonstrated clearly that the whole hospital was engaged in the safe staffing project. She had been able to implement the suggested staffing levels by using the acuity and dependency tools supplied by the Association of UK University Hospitals and using the ratio of one registered nurse to eight patients as a minimum, based on the evidence from Southampton University, King’s College London and the National Nursing Research Unit. Evidence suggested that there was a need for three registered nurses on night duty.
In this hospital there is a safe staffing steering group to support ongoing development. The introduction of a white board on every ward or department indicates the number of nurses and grades on each shift. This is posted so the patients and visitors can immediately identify how many staff at what grade are on duty at any time. There is a daily safe-staffing teleconference on daily rotas meeting each morning at 8.30. This looks at the morning, late and night shift and presents a true picture of ward and department nurse staffing. Obviously this is an ongoing development project involving the board members and the staff of the whole hospital. To date it is working to the satisfaction of patients, families and, above all, the staff involved.
During this time, I also noted the media and varying reports of events demonstrating failings in service delivery because of low staffing levels, including the reports of warning signs from the Royal College of Nursing and other organisations. I also listened to patients’ experiences, where shortage of staff appeared to be a major concern. The need for so many trusts to seek overseas recruits because of shortage was reported last week. There are also records from the Patients Association, which has received many complaints on staff shortages during this time.
I then went on holiday myself and reflected back over the eight weeks. I came to the conclusion, while declaring that I am a long-retired nurse not on the NMC register, that I could do nothing but support the amendment and continue campaigning for the future safety of patients. I hope I have persuaded the Minister. Although this amendment is only a very small part of this large Bill, because of the ramifications for the safety of patients in hospitals who rely on 80% of their care being given by nurses, we owe it to the nurses and to the patients they serve at least to acknowledge and accept the words of the amendment so framed to allow the flexibility required to meet patient need but avoid high risk to the delivery of care. I trust the Minister will respond accordingly to the amendment.
Lord Willis of Knaresborough (LD)
My Lords, I am delighted to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton. May I say—not as an aside but as genuine comment—that we are all in awe of her commitment to nursing and the care profession? It is not just eight weeks, but a lifetime of commitment. I think the whole House is enormously grateful for the contribution she makes.
I rise to support Amendment 144 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, having first thought that it was not required. It seems fairly obvious that the Care Quality Commission shall, in carrying out its functions,
“have regard to any official guidance on staffing numbers and skills mix”.
The idea that any inspector or regulator would look at the guidance and then apply that as criteria would seem an absolutely normal process. Yet on reflection, having read the Francis report and the Winterbourne View report, one suddenly realises that, certainly from 2009 but far back in time as well, the department under successive Governments has offered guidance about safe staffing levels. It has done that in everything, but particularly in acute settings, I appreciate that. The fact that that was not taken into consideration makes the noble Lord’s amendment absolutely appropriate. I cannot see for the life of me why my noble friend would not accept it as a very sensible addition for making sure that the CQC, when it carries out inspections, takes that into consideration.
I would like to spend a little more time on Amendment 159, which has been so superbly introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton. Amendment 159 covers a lot of the same ground but goes further in spelling out the direct link between staffing and patient safety. It is important for my noble friend to understand what it does not do; nobody on either side of the House has sought to impose statutory staffing limits in legislation. That would be counterproductive in getting the sorts of outcomes that we want.
I prefer, as I am sure colleagues on all sides of the House do, to have strong statutory guidance with good inspection, which is what we have had in the past. The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, does this—it completes the circle. I am very concerned that this House and the department spend too little time addressing the question of safe staffing. What does that actually mean? I declare an interest as an honorary fellow of the Royal College of Nursing. The RCN associates safe staffing with nursing because nurses, together with healthcare assistants under their supervision, do most of the care. But safe staffing is about the total product, not simply about nursing. It is also about the ward managers and everything else that goes into ensuring that when patients go into any setting, whether it is domiciliary, a care home or an acute hospital, there is an appropriate level of staffing.
When I was writing the Willis Commission report last year, one of the things that came up over and over again was a demand for mandatory staffing levels. I spent some time looking at the literature on safe staffing levels to see whether there was a correlation between having the right number of staff—registered nurses, care assistants, doctors or consultants—and outcomes. Frankly, it is very difficult to find empirical evidence to support it one way or another, simply because nobody in the healthcare system works in isolation from their colleagues. You are only as good as the team that works around you and their skills and training mix. I looked up what was happening in California where for more than 10 years they have had mandatory staffing levels for registered nurses. No other state has followed that. In April Senator Barbara Boxer introduced a Bill in the Senate to try to establish a federal system of ensuring that all hospitals had particular staff levels but nobody has followed that through.
There is some research being done in the UK, such as Anne Marie Rafferty’s 2007 study, with which Members are familiar. It was a really good piece of work which showed a 26% higher mortality rate in the cases of very high patient to nursing ratios. Kane’s meta-analysis in 2007 of all the literature indicated an emerging consensus that there are particular staffing levels beyond which the situation becomes dangerous. It is an issue for the department to constantly keep that under review. The amendment does not go over that ground but makes it clear in terms of safe staffing that there would be a duty on the provider, such as the hospital or the care home or those providing domiciliary care, to ensure that staff levels were appropriate and that staff competence is such to carry out safe care. After all, there is nobody in this House who does not want to see safe staffing within all NHS and other providers of health and care. That seems to be a basic starting point for a high-quality health and care system. We need to be able to ensure that that is the case. You will only find out what safe staffing levels are in a particular scenario and setting if you monitor them. That is why there is a requirement in the amendment to report on it. We are not talking about a report every three or five years, but there should be a continuous report so that when the CQC goes into a setting, it can look at the correlation between safe staffing levels, acuity and mortality rates and other factors, to see whether outcomes are dependent on particular mixes of staff.
Nor is the amendment saying that there should be annual reports. The Secretary of State would decide how often the department should be able to look at those reports. In essence, however, we are trying to establish that ensuring that the staffing mix is appropriate to the setting and to the patients who are being cared for is fundamental to healthcare. I hope that the Minister can give us some serious comfort on that. If we can get that right, we will have a good healthcare system.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con)
My Lords, I am of course impressed by what has been said by the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, who always knows so much about this subject. We have benefited from her great expertise over time. I am also interested in what the noble Lord, Lord Willis, has just said on the same amendment; he cited Amendment 159 but I thought it was Amendment 158.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
I leave it to the department to work out whether it was Amendment 158 or 159, but that is not too important.
In many ways Amendment 144 does not go far enough. I am sure that the point of the noble Lord, Lord Willis—that the Care Quality Commission should be capable of thinking of these things for itself in any case—is right. However, the phrase “the skills mix” concerns me. There can be huge differences in the skills mix. I was concerned that the Chelsea and Westminster Hospital, having waited for perhaps as long as 10 years, at last got a specialist nurse for neurological conditions. The hospital was delighted because it had had huge demand for such a service. I am a great supporter of specialist nurse services.
The Royal Free then came along and poached that nurse from the Chelsea and Westminster, which then looked at what it could do. I was informed by word of mouth that there was no question or even thought of a replacement because there was a long list, and it was a case of “the first cab on the rank” as to who was deemed to be most needed. It could have been an ordinary nurse, it could have been a surgical nurse or anyone. You moved on and did not replace the person with the skills that you needed and wanted. You had to replace your missing person with whatever the next thing on the waiting list was. That seemed to be a serious cause for concern.
It is essential to know what skills mix is needed. The amendment mentions “official guidance”. It would have to go much wider than official guidance. It has to be attributable to the particular hospital or service that is involved. Although the amendment covers many of the important points, it does not cover the need for every facility to have cover within that department and not to then find that they have lost it because someone left—they could have gone off on maternity leave, they could have left for any reason, but in this instance they were poached by another NHS hospital.
Whatever the answer, it is important. The relationship between the staffing levels is hard to assess and has to be individually done. The Care Quality Commission should be capable of having an indication of what it should be looking at, and needs to be aware of all these problems. Of course, not one of us could oppose having enough staff on the wards, which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said was necessary. However, we are now faced with positions where budgets are limited and they have to look at and work out what they need most. I do not agree at all that it should be just a progression from whoever has been waiting the longest; it should be whatever the hospital, or a particular department, needs the most. Although I support the principle, perhaps it needs more than this. I am hoping that the Minister will be able to assure us that he can incorporate some words within those he already has to make it clear that there must be this obligation. I strongly support Amendment 144 and I am open to conviction about Amendment 158 or 159.
Lord Warner
My Lords, I support both the amendments. They are not alternatives but complementary. I want to start briefly from where we are. The issue of staffing numbers, ratios and skill mixes is just a black box as far as the public are concerned. It is something that goes on within the NHS. This has some relationship to our earlier debate about failure. It is often very difficult for outsiders—and I include regulators as outsiders—to understand what is going on in institutions, particularly acute hospitals. This issue is not peculiar to hospitals; it is even more of an issue for community services, in some ways.
I would like briefly to share my experience as the chairman of the provider agency in London. If your Lordships think that things are bad in some hospital services, try the community services. When we started to poke around in the community services, we found huge variations in the staffing levels for populations with particular conditions. There were massive variations in the face time that clinical staff spent with their patients. We have issues in community services which are often probably more dangerous and less reassuring than we have in some of our hospitals. If we are to have such amendments to the Bill, it is clear that they must relate not just to acute hospital services.
We are not going to get public understanding about when hospitals are failing or unsustainable without a better sense of public education about what a safe level of staffing is to give the reassurance that you are going into a facility which is safe. I added my name to Amendment 159 because it opens up the issue of putting into the public arena some data and reassurance about what a safe level of staffing is for some of these services. It can then be prayed in aid by both commissioners and providers when there are issues about whether a unit is sustainable. We often talk about unsustainability as a financial issue, but it is often about staffing issues—the sheer inability to get a safe group of staff together to run the institution. One acid test of why a place is unsafe is the number of bank or agency staff in a unit, who come and go at ever-increasing frequencies. Public understanding of what is going on in these hospitals seems critical to public reassurance.
Nobody wants to put staff numbers into the Bill, but we need something better than we have now to give the public some idea about the staffing levels and skill mix in what are, at the end of the day, relatively closed institutions. It is difficult for the public to understand what is and is not safe without more data, and that would make it much easier to hold boards to account. Amendment 159 would make it clear that the boards of trusts need to come back continually to what they are providing to the public in the safety of their staffing levels. Amendments 144 and 159 certainly do no damage to the Bill. They strengthen it and it is much more in the interests of the public to have this data available locally, as the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, has said, relating to specific establishments and institutions.
Lord MacKenzie of Culkein (Lab)
My Lords, I also support both amendments. It seems to me, as a nurse, to be a self-evident proposition that having safe staffing levels and the correct skill mix, taking into account dependency and acuity, is the right thing do. Anyone who has listened to the debates in this House on various Bills dealing with health and social care over the past few months knows that it is an enormously complicated issue. However, we must bring it back to this level of patient safety and the duty of providers to provide safe staffing levels and the correct skill mix. If that is not done, all the other things we talk about will be in vain and we will end up with more reports, more inquiries and more problems.
As has already been said, it is incumbent on Governments to take account of all these things: the Francis report, the review into Winterbourne View and some of the recommendations in the excellent report produced a few months ago by the noble Lord, Lord Willis. It is vital that we get this right. At a time when financial pressures will force authorities to look at diluting the numbers of trained nursing staff and trained staff in the community and replacing them with healthcare assistants or support workers with hugely varied levels of training and experience, it is absolutely right that we get the correct level. As has already been said, both of these amendments can only add to the Bill and take nothing away from it.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I hope that I can give noble Lords considerable reassurance on the Government’s position on these important issues. It is almost axiomatic that safe, high-quality care is dependent on people and that right-staffing, in terms of numbers and skills, is vital for good care. The importance of having the right staff with the right skills and in the right numbers is central to the delivery of high-quality care. Where staff are stretched because they are too few in number, corners will be cut, with inevitable adverse consequences for patient care. Equally, where staff do not have the right skills to carry out their tasks, the quality of care will suffer.
Patient safety is the first priority, and safe staffing levels really matter. The quality of care provided to patients is ultimately the responsibility of the leadership of provider organisations. It is their responsibility to ensure that they have the right staff with the right skills in the right place at the right time in order to provide high-quality care. In the final analysis, it is for hospitals themselves to decide how many nurses they employ, and they are the best placed to do that. Nursing leaders have been clear that hospitals should determine and publish staffing details and the evidence to show that staff numbers are right for the care needs of the patients that they look after.
Although local providers are best placed to do this based on local need, we expect them to look to authoritative guidance and evidence-based tools and learn from best practice to deliver cost-effective and safe care. We recognise that there is a need for national action to ensure that local organisations meet those expectations. As a result of the national nursing and midwifery strategy and vision published in 2012, Compassion in Practice, a considerable amount of work is going on across England to ensure that providers use evidence-based tools, using acuity and dependency measures to set staffing levels, and for boards to publish these staffing levels on a regular basis.
I want to explain what we are now doing to build on that work. First, the Chief Nursing Officer, supported by the National Quality Board, is developing guidance for the system, including a set of expectations, to support provider organisations in securing the appropriate staffing capacity and capability for nursing, midwifery and care. This guidance is being developed with the intention of ensuring safe patient care and that patient outcomes are not compromised. It will include expectations on transparency and publication of information on staffing.
This guidance is being developed jointly by the statutory organisations responsible for quality across the NHS, which are brought together as part of the National Quality Board and which include the Care Quality Commission, Monitor, the NHS Trust Development Authority and NHS England. It will be published next month. I can therefore only agree with the intention behind the amendment that providers need to be open and transparent about their staffing numbers. The positive news is that action is already in place to ensure that this happens.
Lord Willis of Knaresborough
What my noble friend has said is incredibly encouraging. However, before he leaves that point, could he take up the very important issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Warner? This is not just about hospitals; it is also—particularly in my case—about care homes and other community settings. Will the regulations apply to all those settings, so that we get continuity throughout the system?
Earl Howe
My Lords, I am happy to come to that point. The short answer is that that is certainly our intention.
I turn to Amendment 159, about which I will be a little critical. We consider that requiring health or care service providers to,
“publish a report containing staffing levels based on evidence of safe staffing levels supported by acuity and dependency levels for each patient”,
is really not a viable alternative to what we are already putting in place and would not work in practice. It would be burdensome to implement in precisely that form and could detract from the ability of staff to deliver good clinical care.
I understand, of course, the thrust of the thought behind the first part of the amendment, which says that,
“the first duty that a health or care service provider must consider for any decision is patient safety”,
However, it carries the risk of unintended consequences. It could lead to other important factors, such as innovation and service improvement, not being given sufficient weight and providers becoming unduly risk averse. We need to reflect that any innovative treatment—which we want to encourage in the health service—carries some risk. That is always justified by benefits for the wider system. We do not want clinicians to become reluctant to take risks if this amendment were passed.
Also, we do not feel that specifying report requirements for provider boards is the role of the Secretary of State any more. Rather, the focus has to be to allow for local accountability and local decision-making. However, as I have said, we recognise that decision-making tools are needed and I agree with my noble friend Lord Willis about that. We are working with the CQC, NICE and others to ensure that providers have the evidence-based tools they need to make decisions to secure safe staffing levels. These decisions will then be subject to external scrutiny and challenge by commissioners, regulators and the public, and to inspection by the Chief Inspector of Hospitals.
However, at the end of the day we come back to the fundamental point, that it is the responsibility of individual providers to be accountable for staffing levels in their organisations. The existing registration requirements, which are enforced and monitored by the CQC, already recognise the importance of that. That is my response to Amendment 144. The requirements state that providers must take steps to ensure that at all times there are sufficient numbers of suitable staff to carry on the regulated activities that the organisation provides. Additionally, the Chief Inspector of Hospitals has also made it clear that appropriate staffing levels are part of the requirements of registration for the CQC.
In assessing whether a provider meets the registration requirement on staffing, the CQC refers to relevant guidance about staffing levels and skills mix published by professional councils and relevant expert and professional bodies. These include the Department of Health, Skills for Care, Skills for Health, the NHS and the Royal College of Nursing. Where a provider does not meet the staffing registration requirement, the CQC is able to use its enforcement powers to protect patients and service users from the risks of unsafe care associated with inadequate and/or poorly trained staff.
In its consultation document A New Start, published in June this year, the CQC stated that the focus of its new inspection methodology would be on five key domains. Are services safe, effective, caring, responsive to people’s needs, and well led? These domains will cut across all areas of activity, including levels of staffing and skill mix.
Baroness Emerton
My Lords, on what evidence would the CQC base the answers to those questions?
Lord Warner
How easy will it be for members of the public to see this material when they are trying to be sure that they are going to a safe place?
Earl Howe
The answer to that question is the rating system, which the chief inspectors are planning to bring in. Proposals for that will be announced very shortly. We attach great importance to that kind of transparency, not only in the NHS but in the care sector. On my noble friend’s question about whether all this would cover the care sector as well as the NHS, as he will know, the CQC issues sector-specific guidance on how to meet staffing registration requirements. Obviously NHS England would only provide guidance that relates to the NHS. As I already said, the Chief Inspector of, say, Adult Social Care would inspect regularly against CQC guidance. The plan is to consult in April 2014 on the CQC guidance on social care.
My noble friend spoke about an emerging consensus on a minimum level of staffing below which care is unsafe. I understand his point, but I am sure he will acknowledge—and did, implicitly, in his remarks—that staffing is not simply about crude numbers; it is not just about nurses. Healthcare assistants and other members of the team all have a key role to play. My noble friend Lady Gardner was absolutely right to point out that the skill mix is relevant in these circumstances. Patient safety experts agree that safe staffing levels should be set locally. It is not for Whitehall to set one-size-fits-all staffing rules. That is exactly why we have asked NICE and other nursing experts to review the evidence, to help organisations to make the right decisions on staff numbers at a local level and then, essentially, to govern themselves. I make it absolutely clear that we fully agree that safe staffing should apply in all settings and that point will be taken into account as we develop our plans.
I hope noble Lords are reassured that action is already being undertaken in a combination of ways, through Compassion in Practice, the CQC registration process, and, shortly, through the role of the Chief Inspector of Hospitals. That will ensure that providers are open and transparent about their staffing numbers and that they assess these staffing levels, not just on the day of an inspection but on a regular basis, using evidence-based tools, and by taking into account local factors that relate to local patient needs and outcomes. I therefore hope that noble Lords will be content to take stock of what I have said and will not press their amendments.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken. I will say at once that I very much support Amendment 159. I agree with my noble friend Lord Warner that the two amendments run in parallel very well indeed.
I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, thinks that my amendment may be a little too modest. Perhaps it is a start. I assume that the noble Baroness was not chair of the Royal Free when the “poaching” that she described took place. The point was well made.
The noble Earl, Lord Howe, has listed a number of ways in which we could be assured that staffing numbers and skill mix will be okay both in the NHS and the care sector. The fact is that, however much information is published and however much this might be part of the licensing regime of CQC, these organisations have been around for some time. There is consistent evidence that staffing levels are not sufficient. We have already had the Francis report, which said that NICE should undertake benchmarking on staffing levels. The Keogh report on the 14 hospital trusts said:
“The review teams found inadequate numbers of nursing staff in a number of ward areas, particularly out of hours—at night and at the weekend. This was compounded by an over-reliance on unregistered support staff and temporary staff”.
The Berwick report goes over the same ground. At the end of the day, I do not think there is enough beef in the system to ensure that we have adequate support staff. If NICE is going to carry out the benchmarking, which is a very good thing, we need to make sure that the regulator actually has some beef in terms of ensuring that we get adequate staff levels in clinical areas. I think that my Amendment 144 ensures that that will happen. I should like to test the opinion of the House.
“(13) Consultation undertaken before the commencement of this section is as effective for the purposes of subsection (9) as consultation undertaken after that commencement.”
“( ) In section 48 (special reviews and investigations), in subsection (1)—
(a) omit “, with the approval of the Secretary of State,”, and(b) at the end insert “; but the Commission may not conduct a review or investigation under subsection (2)(ba) or (bb) without the approval of the Secretary of State.”( ) Omit subsection (1A) of that section.
( ) In subsection (2) of that section, for “a periodic review” substitute “a review under section 46”.
( ) In that subsection, after paragraph (ba) (but before the following “or”) insert—
“(bb) the exercise of the functions of English local authorities in arranging for the provision of adult social services,”.( ) After subsection (3) of that section insert—
“(3A) A review or investigation under subsection (2)(b), in so far as it involves a review or investigation into the arrangements made for the provision of the adult social services in question, is to be treated as a review under subsection (2)(bb) (and the requirement for approval under subsection (1) is accordingly to apply).””
“( ) in section 293 of the Health and Social Care Act 2012, omit subsections (1) and (2);”
Earl Howe
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 152B to 152F. These are amendments to the clauses that establish a new offence and penalties where care providers provide certain false or misleading information. Together with the new duty of candour on providers that we considered last Wednesday, this measure is key to supporting openness and transparency among care providers.
We are making two substantive amendments. First, Amendment 152F extends the offence to directors and other senior individuals who consent to or connive in an offence committed by the care provider, as well as to cases where the negligence of senior individuals has led to the offence by the care provider. This amendment brings the offence into line with a number of other offences that are committed by organisations, such as Health and Safety at Work etc. Act offences and offences under the CQC legislation, where senior individuals are also liable for the offence. This will encourage directors and other senior individuals leading organisations to take greater ownership of the provision of information.
Secondly, since Committee, the Government have reflected on the penalties for this offence. The provision of accurate information is central to the safe functioning of the health and social care system as it provides the intelligence on which commissioners and regulators form judgments about the quality of care. Where that information is wrong, it can result in delays in taking action to protect patients and service users. Falsifying such information is a serious matter that can frustrate attempts to provide safe care for patients and service users. In the light of this, we believe that a custodial sentence is warranted in the most serious cases. I am therefore bringing forward Amendment 152E, which introduces a maximum penalty on indictment of two years’ imprisonment. I emphasise that the Government are not of the view that the custodial penalty will be used with any frequency. The aim of the offence is not to punish directors and other senior individuals but, rather, to drive improvement and performance.
The amendments also address a number of concerns that were raised in Committee. There was some debate about the scope of the false or misleading information offence. I should like to make it as clear as possible that the false or misleading information offence will apply only to the provision of publicly funded care. We will specify in regulations—a preliminary draft of which we have shared with noble Lords ahead of the debate—which information this will relate to, starting with information provided by hospitals. We are making a small number of amendments to clarify the scope of the offence. First, we are amending the definition of a care provider to make it clear that this does not include commissioners or regulators. We are also amending the wording so that the offence could apply to sole traders and all types of partnerships, such as GP practices, and to care providers who are funded by service users under direct payment arrangements. I beg to move.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I want to ask the noble Earl just one question. Why does it not apply to commissioners? We know from events that have happened in the past few years that in many cases commissioners have been responsible for issues by sins of omission or by not being completely open. It is a puzzle to me why all the emphasis is on providing and not on the way that commissioners actually operate. There is evidence, for instance, that the way some commissioners operate can have a direct impact on the quality of provision. We have already discussed this in relation to 15-minute visits. I am puzzled as to why so little attention is being paid to the way that commissioners themselves should operate.
Earl Howe
That is a perfectly reasonable question. The short answer is that, in determining the scope of this offence, our focus was and is on information that is closest to patient care, where inaccurate statements can allow poor and dangerous care to continue. That approach responds directly to the Francis report concerns about the manipulation of patient safety information. We believe, therefore, that the proposals are focused and proportionate. We are targeting this offence on the key patient safety and quality data that commissioners and regulators use to assess performance. We think that we have the balance right.
(c) a person who provides health services or adult social care in England all or part of the cost of which is paid for by means of a direct payment under section 12A of the National Health Service Act 2006 or under Part 1 of this Act.”
(a) on summary conviction, to a fine;(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for not more than two years or a fine (or both).”
“Offences by bodies
(1) Subsection (2) applies where an offence under section 84(1) is committed by a body corporate and it is proved that the offence is committed by, or with the consent or connivance of, or is attributable to neglect on the part of—
(a) a director, manager or secretary of the body, or(b) a person purporting to act in such a capacity.(2) The director, manager, secretary or person purporting to act as such (as well as the body) is guilty of the offence and liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly (but section 85(2) does not apply).
(3) The reference in subsection (2) to a director, manager or secretary of a body corporate includes a reference—
(a) to any other similar officer of the body, and(b) where the body is a local authority, to a member of the authority.(4) Proceedings for an offence under section 84(1) alleged to have been committed by an unincorporated association are to be brought in the name of the association (and not in that of any of the members); and rules of court relating to the service of documents have effect as if the unincorporated association were a body corporate.
(5) In proceedings for an offence under section 84(1) brought against an unincorporated association, section 33 of the Criminal Justice Act 1925 and Schedule 3 to the Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980 apply as they apply in relation to a body corporate.
(6) A fine imposed on an unincorporated association on its conviction for an offence under section 84(1) is to be paid out of the funds of the association.
(7) Subsection (8) applies if an offence under section 84(1) is proved—
(a) to have been committed by, or with the consent or connivance of, an officer of the association or a member of its governing body, or(b) to be attributable to neglect on the part of such an officer or member.(8) The officer or member (as well as the association) is guilty of the offence and liable to be proceeded against accordingly (but section 85(2) does not apply).”
“Training for persons working in regulated activity
In section 20 of the Health and Social Care Act 2008 (regulation of regulated activities), after subsection (4) insert—“(4A) Regulations made under this section by virtue of subsection (3)(d) may in particular include provision for a specified person to set the standards which persons undergoing the training in question must attain.””
Earl Howe
My Lords, in Committee noble Lords were rightly concerned about the way that healthcare assistants and social care support workers are trained and supported to carry out the crucial tasks assigned to them. Amendments were also tabled concerning the regulation of this group of workers. I sought then to reassure noble Lords that the Government were determined to ensure that this important part of the workforce received high-quality and consistent training to deliver the best standards of support and care to patients and service users. Having listened very carefully to the views expressed in Committee, I have reflected a great deal on this important issue and today I am able to go further than I was able to do on that occasion.
First, however, I shall provide a short recap. What we are now doing will mean building on what we have been putting in place since your Lordships’ House last discussed this issue during the passage of the Health and Social Care Act 2012. Common induction standards have been in place in social care since 2005, but the sector skills councils jointly published a code of conduct and national minimum training standards in March 2013. The standards place dignity and respect at the centre of the knowledge required to provide safe and effective care. The sector skills councils engaged comprehensively in the development of both the NMTS and the code of conduct across the health and social care sectors, including NHS and social care providers, the Health and Care Professions Council, the Royal College of Nursing, the Royal College of Midwives, the Nursing and Midwifery Council, and patient representative groups.
We know that we need to build on these standards. The department is investing £130 million in training and developing the social care workforce this year. Working through Skills for Care, the Department of Health provides funding of some £12 million each year to social care employers to train and develop their workforce. Health Education England is also investing £13 million in the training and development of healthcare assistants.
Lord Willis of Knaresborough
My Lords, I rise, somewhat gobsmacked, as they say in Yorkshire, at the launching by my noble friend of what has been a major breakthrough in the training of healthcare support workers. I notice that the noble Baroness, Lady Gibson, is nodding in approval as this is an area with which she too has been very closely concerned. I thank my noble friend for making that commitment. It makes most of my speech totally irrelevant but, nevertheless, I will add one or two bits just for good measure.
There is no doubt that there is an overwhelming case for appropriately training the 1.3 million healthcare support workers who do such a fantastic job in care homes and domiciliary settings, as well as in hospitals. This has been a national scandal so far. These people are a hugely valuable part of the workforce and it is important to recognise them as such.
I should like to ask some brief questions. Camilla Cavendish recommended that the certificate of fundamental care be a baseline on which there would be an advanced certificate. That would lead directly into nurse training so that there would be no glass ceiling for healthcare support workers, particularly since nursing has moved on to being an all-graduate profession. When the Minister responds, I hope that he will be able to say whether that is within the psyche. The idea of having student nurses working alongside healthcare support workers, particularly those training for the advanced level, is a good one, so that you know the skills mix that you are working with.
In Amendment 153, I railed at the word “may”. The amendment states:
“Regulations made under this section by virtue of subsection (3)(d) may in particular include provision for a specified person”.
Surely, the Minister could go one step further and say that, at Third Reading, it will become a “must” and not a “may”. The one thing we must not have—there are a lot of musts—is a situation where people can move away from this need to be able to make sure that within a short period the whole of our social, health and care workforce will be properly trained to a standard approved by the sector skills council and the Nursing and Midwifery Council. That is a major breakthrough.
My noble friend is right that there are some excellent training programmes. I have seen many of them. I remember one for healthcare support workers at John Radcliffe Hospital in Oxford within the hospital setting. I know that many care homes give superb training to their staff because that leads to good patient outcomes which sell the product. Has any thought gone into existing training being recognised so that people do not have to go through another hoop for the sake of getting their certificate? Perhaps Health Education England can do that with this. I hope other noble Lords will comment on our amendment.
Amendment 160 remains a thorny issue. A mandatory regulatory system for healthcare support workers has been on the table. Francis himself made it clear that this workforce should be regulated. Until now, my problem with that has been that there has been very little to regulate because if people are not trained to approved standards, how on earth do you have a regulatory system by which you can judge their competence? Now that we are getting one, I hope that the Minister will look again at regulation so that we get the complete package and, my goodness, this will be a Care Bill that we can really celebrate.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Willis, has just referred to my Amendment 160. It relates to the regulation of health and care support workers. I have long thought that the regulation of support workers is necessary, desirable and inevitable because they play such an important role in caring for so many people. I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Willis, for the outstanding work he did for the RCN’s independent commission which has informed this debate about standards of care workers.
I very much welcome what the Minister said about the development of a certificate of fundamental care. My noble friend Lord Young reminded me that I ought to ask the Minister at what level that is going to be because anyone who understands these issues will know that the level of a certificate is very important.
I want to draw together Amendments 153, 158 and 160. Given that in future when employers wish to take on care workers they will expect a certificate of fundamental care, does the Minister not think it inevitable that there will be a list of people who have been awarded the certificate? Does he not also think it inevitable that once you have that list, if you then have a person with a certificate and they transgress and there is concern about the way they care for people, there will inevitability be a drive to ask how you get that certificate off them? I believe regulation is inevitable now. There is no way away from the fact that once you have a certificate like this, there will have to be a list or a register and people will have to be evaluated. I for one very much welcome what the Minister has announced because it is a very important step along the road of regulation.
Baroness Wall of New Barnet
My Lords, I, too, welcome the announcement, and I am sure that the noble Earl is not surprised at the depth of feeling I have in welcoming it. I see this as a step towards regulation. He might baulk at that but, as the noble Lord, Lord Willis, said, regulation is important for us, and I have been asking for it for a long time. However, I also have felt: what is it we are regulating in the sense of the absolute ultimate? So I think this gives us a very clear and descriptive way in which that can be measured.
I echo what the noble Lord, Lord Willis, said about “may”. That must be “must”, please, because “may” gives such a lot of flexibility that we may go back to exactly where we are right now if people are not required to carry this out. I very much agree that regulation helps in bringing value into the skill mix. My noble friend Lord Hunt referred to an aside by his colleague sitting alongside him. As somebody who is involved in skills heavily, whether it is NVQ level 1, 2 or 3—which I am sure my noble friend Lord Young was referring to—I know from the work that I have done with Skills for Care that the aim is that between level 2 and 3 will be competent level because obviously it depends very much on what people start with.
A final point, which the noble Lord, Lord Willis, picked up on and which we have in industry as well, is how we measure the skills and experience that people already have when we try to ascertain where they fit in. One of the dispiriting things that we find elsewhere is that, when people are asked to take a level 2 or 3, no recognition is made of what they have already gained while they have been doing the job. Skills for Care knows how to cope with that in the way that the skills levels are drawn up.
I thank the noble Earl very much. I spoke before about being tedious. I am sure that the way in which he has pursued this issue has nothing to do with me or other people being tedious; it is because he has a belief in it.
Baroness Emerton
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Earl the Minister for what he has said. I think I have probably been more of a pain than anybody on this subject. I thank the noble Earl very much for the assurances that he has given.
I have one or two very quick questions. He knows that I have a thing about Skills for Care and Skills for Health. Who is going to decide the membership of those groups? I am concerned that in teaching skills each individual care worker will want to have the background knowledge to support their skill. It is no good just teaching someone a simple skill without having the knowledge behind it. It reminded me that 63 years ago I was a St John Ambulance cadet. I did an elementary first-aid course where a doctor taught elementary anatomy, physiology and treatment of first aid. I then went on to home nursing and was taught by a registered nurse how to look after patients in the home, provide good nutrition and prevent bed sores. I think probably what I knew at the age of 11 is more than what some of our healthcare professionals know today. What will be the professional input into Skills for Health and Skills for Care? Who will do the syllabus, the curriculum and the teaching? Presumably Health Education England and the NMC will give the backing to that. If we could have that assurance, it would keep me quiet for a little longer.
Lord Warner
My Lords, I also thank the Minister for his persistence within Whitehall in actually getting progress in this area. I think we all feel that he has put a lot of personal effort into it and deserves a great deal of credit.
If I may, I will ask a couple of slightly nerdy questions. I think that the issue of where this stands in the pecking order is vital. Is it down at NVQ levels 1 and 2? Is it up at level 3? How far away is it from the degree-level professional qualifications? In some ways, the title that has been given to this rather diminishes its standing up the food chain, so to speak. A certificate of fundamental care sounds a bit basic, and I am not quite sure what signals are given about the level that Health Education England should strive for in overseeing this particular work. A lot more work needs to be done on that.
Perhaps I may also pick up the point that my noble friend Lord Hunt hinted at. At the end of the day, if employers are to make this operate, they need some kind of register of who has the certificate. They also need to know what happens when they fire somebody and take disciplinary action against someone who has this certificate. Who do they tell? That seems a quite critical issue, because this is a very large workforce and it would be quite surprising if each year we did not get a steady flow of bad cases where an employer has fired someone for a breach of good practice of one kind or another. This would all be set to nought if there was no record of where these cases of disciplinary action have been taken, and people with a certificate were still floating around the system when they have actually been released by an employer for poor practice.
Lord Patel
My Lords, I have put my name to Amendment 158. I also thank the Minister for pulling a rabbit out of the hat, so to speak. However, I am not as gobsmacked as the noble Lord, Lord Willis of Knaresborough, because I have lost count of the number of times and days in this Chamber that we have debated the need for training healthcare support workers. I am at least glad that it has now paid some dividends.
I am also glad that the noble Earl said that Health Education England would take the lead on this, and will involve the NMC in devising the standardised training programmes, because it has the expertise to do it. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and others that this inevitably means there will need to be some sanctions for those who do not fulfil the requirements for training and therefore fail to be regulated. I am not sure whether that is for this Bill or subsequently, but it will inevitably lead to that. However, I thank the noble Earl for his amendment.
Lord MacKenzie of Culkein
My Lords, I join in the congratulations to the Minister on his words this afternoon. For a long time I have felt that trying to get some movement on this issue of education and training for healthcare assistants was rather like the sufferings of Sisyphus pushing that stone uphill. Fortunately, I was wrong and the debates that we have had on this issue over the past few months have clearly borne fruit.
I join the noble Lord, Lord Willis, in saying that the permissive “may” in Amendment 153 should be changed to “must”. It is extremely important that that happens if at all possible. For me, regulating healthcare assistants has been an issue since the long preparation for Project 2000 and the eventual demise of the enrolled nurse, leaving the gap which has now had to be addressed in this way.
The Minister has always been careful to say that the Government do not have a closed mind on regulation. I hope that that remains the position because, given the position we have now arrived at, it is inevitable, for the reasons that my noble friends Lord Hunt and Lord Warner have given, that regulation will come some day. To coin the current phrase, it is a can that has been kicked down the road long enough. We ought to stop kicking it and get there sooner rather than later.
I heard the Minister say in the past that regulation is not a guarantor of good care. That, as far as it goes, is true, because if it was a guarantor, there would be no poor practice or misconduct in any profession. That is not an argument against regulation for all the professions that are properly regulated to safeguard the public. I hope that an open mind will be kept on this and that we can come back to the issue of regulation, which is now inevitable. Having said that, I am grateful and delighted that we have made the progress that we have today and again I thank the Minister for his persistence in this matter.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I am very pleased that noble Lords have recognised the announcement I made today about the development of the care certificate, led by Health Education England working with professional bodies and the sector skills councils. It goes a long way to ensuring that we address training and quality standards for this part of the workforce.
I shall do my best to answer the questions that have been put to me. First, I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Willis who has made a very important contribution to the debate on healthcare assistants in the Willis Commission on Nursing Education. I acknowledge his long-standing interest and expertise in this area. While the government position on a recommendation such as regulation is different from his—I will come on to regulation in a moment—we share his concern that healthcare assistants and social care support workers need to have the training to do the tasks that they are asked to do. I am well aware of the recommendations that he has made in that area and we will not lose sight of them.
My noble friend asked about government Amendment 153 and why it does not say “must” instead of “may”. First, I can confirm that we will make regulations in this area. The amendment provides an expressed power to delegate the standard-setting function to another body if we so choose. It is in the Secretary of State’s power to delegate. The amendment states “may” because the Secretary of State may in the future wish to set the training standards which he would be able to do under his existing powers. The Secretary of State would not be able to do that if regulations had been made that delegated this function to another body.
The noble Lord, Lord Warner, asked what the care certificate will look like. It is a little too soon for me to answer that in any detail. Health Education England is still considering that issue because of the range of settings in which healthcare assistants and social care support workers operate. We have asked Health Education England to ensure that the approach to the care certificate is flexible so that it is meaningful in every setting. As Camilla Cavendish recommends, they will need to build on the best of the training and development practice which is out there, and the good work that is being done on the code of conduct and the national minimum training standards. A key requirement is to ensure that the skills and behaviours are taught so that we move away from the tick-box approach identified in some instances in the Cavendish review. I know that that is a particular concern—rightly—of the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton. Equally, the noble Lord, Lord Warner, was right to say that we have to think about the mechanisms which would allow, in appropriate cases, the withdrawal of a certificate where an individual had been found wanting in their caring skills.
The noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, asked who will be involved in the development of the certificate. As I have said, Health Education England has been asked to lead this work. It will engage with sectoral bodies, including the sector skills councils, but also more particularly the NMC, the RCN and providers of care. The department will be involved as well. I can reassure her that the code of conduct and the national minimum trading standards were not solely the product of the sector skills councils but were very much the result of consultation and cross-sector working with a number of professional bodies.
My noble friend Lord Willis asked whether there would be an advanced certificate. An advanced certificate, bridging into nursing qualifications, certainly needs to be considered as part of the wider response to Camilla Cavendish’s report and we may have more to say about that when we make our official response. However, we agree that any work done by Health Education England must look at the broader picture and the other recommendations made by Camilla Cavendish.
My noble friend also asked about recognising existing high standards of training, where those pertain. He is absolutely right that we need to build on the best training that is out there and to recognise the tasks that people are called upon to do. The Cavendish review makes recommendations on better quality assurance which we are also considering.
The noble Baroness, Lady Wall, asked what we do about healthcare assistants and social care support workers who are already working in the field. That is a point of detail which is still to be worked through but, in principle, if someone is already working as a healthcare assistant or social care support worker and meets the standards there should be some way for them to demonstrate this without having to undergo unnecessary repeat training.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, suggested that, if we have gone this far, it is almost inevitable that we should proceed to regulate this sector of the workforce. I do not agree with him, but, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord MacKenzie, our minds are still open to the possibility of regulation at some time in the future. However, we need to bear in mind that statutory regulation is not just about training: it is a much broader process and we do not currently view it as appropriate or proportionate for healthcare assistants and social care workers. Statutory regulation involves setting standards of conduct required within a scope of practice; protecting commonly recognised professional titles; establishing a list of registered practitioners, which is quite an onerous process; providing a way in which complaints can be dealt with fairly and appropriately and allowing a regulator to strike off an individual from a register. We must make no mistake about how complex a business this is. I emphasise that we will continue to review this whole question as we go along but we do not think it is appropriate at present.
The noble Lord, Lord Patel, asked what sanctions there will be for people who do not meet the standards described in the certificate and the noble Lord, Lord Warner, asked a similar question. Unfortunately, I do not have a detailed answer for him today. However, it is a pertinent point that, as the development of the certificate continues, we will need to bottom out. Managers and the CQC will play a big role and are important in ensuring that the certificate is an effective way of evidencing people’s skills.
The noble Lord, Lord Warner, asked a related question about who an employer tells if they fire someone with the certificate. The process operated by employers under the existing system should include checks on various matters, including qualifications. However, the disclosure and barring service also provides a further layer of assurance by helping employers make safer recruitment decisions and prevent unsuitable people working with vulnerable groups.
The noble Lord asked what level the certificate would be set at. It is, at this stage, basic training but full details have not been finalised and I hope noble Lords will understand that if I go any further on this point I am in danger of pre-empting our formal response to the Cavendish report. Currently, the national minimum training standards cover issues such as how to communicate effectively with stakeholders, how to ensure that care is person-centred, how to handle patients, and infection control and prevention. However, no doubt those issues will be looked at and, if appropriate, built on.
I stress that I recognise how much of an issue of concern this is. I will take the opportunity to reassure noble Lords that, while what I am describing is the right course of action, we will continue to keep under review further measures as necessary. With that, I hope that noble Lords will feel reassured that there is already in place a proportionate system and process to provide public assurance, and that these measures, in addition to the commitments that I made today in relation to the training and development of the workforce, will in their totality be sufficient to enable them to feel comfortable in not pressing their amendments.
“(0 ) The non-executive members of HEE must include a person who will represent the interests of patients.”
Earl Howe
My Lords, I will speak also to Amendments 155, 156, 157, 161, 162, 163 and 164.
It is important that Health Education England, through its education and training functions, is able to develop a workforce that is informed by, and responsive to, the needs of patients and service users. Robert Francis QC highlighted the importance of embedding a culture of listening to, and engaging with, patients in his report of the Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust public inquiry. The report included a recommendation that Health Education England should include a lay patient representative on its board. The Government supported that recommendation and tabled Amendment 154 to require the Health Education England board to include a non-executive member who will represent the interests of patients. Indeed, we have already taken steps to recruit such a non-executive member to the board of the Health Education England Special Health Authority. However, it is our intention to go further. Amendment 162 would require local education and training boards to include a person who will represent the interests of patients.
Amendments 163 and 164 reflect minor changes to the drafting of Clause 94. Together, they clarify that the regulations requiring clinical expertise on LETBs relate to the provision in subsection (3)(b) of Clause 94.
In setting Health Education England up as a non-departmental public body, it is important that we give it the appropriate levels of autonomy and flexibility to determine how it organises itself and performs its functions. Amendment 155 seeks to enable Health Education England to arrange for any of its committees, sub-committees, members or any other person to exercise its functions on its behalf. Linked to Amendment 155, Amendment 156 seeks to enable Health Education England to make payments to any of its committees, sub-committees or members, or to any other person to whom it delegates functions. These amendments bring Health Education England into line with other bodies established under the Health and Social Care Act 2012 that have powers enabling functions to be exercised by their committees and by their non-executive and executive members. It is also consistent with Amendment 165, which covers the Health Research Authority.
Amendment 157 seeks to amend the Bill to clarify that Health Education England may not delegate the functions of a local education and training board to any other committee, sub-committee, member or any other person. The functions of the LETB will continue to be the sole responsibility of those committees established as local education and training boards. This is important and reflects the discrete role of the local education and training boards and the separation in the Bill of responsibilities for national and local education and training functions.
We had an excellent debate in Committee on the important role that education and training can play in supporting research. I know we are all in agreement that it is vital to create a workforce in the health service that is innovative and research-literate, with the skills required to diffuse the latest ideas and innovations.
The noble Lords, Lord Turnberg and Lord Patel, and my noble friend Lord Willis sought reassurance that the duty placed in Clause 89 on Health Education England to promote research would be equally applicable to LETBs when exercising their local workforce planning, education and training functions. As I set out in Committee, our view is that local education and training boards are obliged to support Health Education England in delivery of its primary duties. However, I have given this some thought and agree that it is important to reinforce the Bill to make this clearer. Amendment 161 not only seeks to clarify that the duty to promote research applies equally to LETBs but makes it clear in the Bill that Health Education England’s duties relating to continuous quality improvement and promotion of the NHS Constitution apply also at a local level.
These amendments will strengthen the patient voice within Health Education England and the local education and training boards, provide greater autonomy and flexibility, and ensure a strong research duty. I hope that noble Lords feel able to give these amendments their support. I beg to move.
Lord Aberdare (CB)
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 160A, which is sandwiched in the middle of this group of government amendments. My amendment seeks to add an additional matter to which Health Education England must have regard when publishing its objectives and priorities—namely,
“the needs of patients to have their conditions diagnosed promptly”.
This is intended to promote the interests of patients suffering from diseases that are hard to diagnose but where early diagnosis can be critical. There are, of course, a number of such conditions, but the Minister may not be surprised to learn that the particular condition on which I shall focus is pancreatic cancer, for which early diagnosis is often literally a matter of life and death. This amendment is based on my work with the charity Pancreatic Cancer UK. I am also a member of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Pancreatic Cancer, chaired by my noble friend Lord Patel, which has been conducting an inquiry into how survival rates can be improved. Speed of diagnosis is critical and depends largely on the level of awareness of pancreatic cancer and its symptoms in primary care.
The 2010 National Cancer Patient Experience Survey found that 40% of pancreatic cancer patients visit their GP three times or more before being referred to hospital for investigation. The National Cancer Intelligence Network has found that half of all pancreatic cancer patients are diagnosed only as a result of an emergency admission to hospital. Patients diagnosed via this route have far lower one-year survival rates—only 9%, compared to 26% for patients diagnosed as a result of GP referral. A 2012 survey of GPs found that half said that they were not confident that they could identify the signs and symptoms of possible pancreatic cancer in a patient. Education and training are needed to give them enhanced skills and tools in order to improve their ability to recognise and diagnose the symptoms of conditions such as pancreatic cancer, and to help prevent the sort of shuttling between GPs and a range of different secondary care providers that some patients undergo before a firm diagnosis is made. That needs to be a clear part of Health Education England’s brief.
The aim of this amendment, therefore, is simply to ensure that such a responsibility is formally included among matters to which Health Education England must have regard. It would require it specifically to recognise that time is of the essence in diseases such as pancreatic cancer, and encourage HEE to identify, share and promote best practice in achieving earlier diagnosis. It might, for example, lead to initiatives such as conducting case reviews with experts from the Royal College of General Practitioners to determine why cases identified through emergency admission could not have been diagnosed earlier. I hope that such initiatives would help to close the gap between the UK and other leading countries that do significantly better in terms of survival rates and other outcomes.
My amendment may not be the best way to achieve these goals but it is important that they should be achieved, and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response as to how this can and will be done.
Lord Patel
My Lords, I rise to support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare. He is extremely knowledgeable about issues relating to pancreatic cancer. While the principles of early diagnosis and related outcomes are important for all diseases, this is particularly so for cancers and especially for certain cancers, such as pancreatic cancer. I have spoken before in this House about how two members of my family—my mother and my mother-in-law—both died of pancreatic cancer. Emphasising the need for early diagnosis of any disease is important in the training of doctors and nurses.
Baroness Wheeler (Lab)
My Lords, we very much welcome this important group of amendments. If one reads back over the debates on the Bill in Committee, there can be little doubt that the provisions for HEE and LETBs have been considerably strengthened and improved by your Lordships’ detailed scrutiny and deliberations. These amendments consolidate that work.
We have also been encouraged by the progress that HEE has been making under the leadership of Sir Keith Pearson. The website demonstrates this, and the HEE leadership team has been highly visible at conferences and forums, setting out its proposed strategic priorities and consulting on the way forward. In particular, HEE seems to have taken up the key message that, in educating and training staff for NHS and public health, it must have a strategic understanding of the workforce requirements across the boundaries of health and social care and of the need for staff to work in an integrated way. This has been a major concern. I was pleased, for example, to hear the HEE medical director, Wendy Reid, emphasise this at a recent Westminster Health Forum workforce conference that I chaired.
These amendments strengthen the role of LETBs by emphasising that HEE duties under Clause 89 to ensure that quality improvement in education and training, promotion of research—as the Minister has stated—and the NHS Constitution all apply to LETBs. This is an important provision and reflects concerns expressed in Committee that LETBs must pay attention to the maintenance of standards and quality in education and training, as well as ensuring that sufficient numbers of staff are trained locally. This was a point made by my noble friend Lord Turnberg and which the Minister addressed earlier.
Amendments explicitly providing HEE with authority to delegate its functions to its committees, sub-committees, members or other persons are important in allowing HEE the flexibility that it needs to deliver its priorities and functions, and we strongly support them.
On HEE board and LETB representation, we join other noble Lords in expressing our relief at the government amendments, which ensure that people with clinical expertise are appointed to both bodies. This was a serious omission and its inclusion now greatly strengthens the Bill, as does the Government’s commitment that regulations will place a specific requirement on HEE and LETBs to include a nurse and a doctor. It is particularly important, as my noble friend Lord Hunt underlined in Committee, for the people in the driving seat on education and training requirements, standards and future needs at local level to be those who provide the services. HEE and LETBs must understand the pressures that the service is under in relation to staffing and to ensuring that education and training is flexible and responsive to the rapidly changing face and needs of health and social care. The implementation of the Francis recommendations for a lay patient representative on the HEE board and LETBs is also a key change to the Bill, which we strongly welcome and which will only enhance the work and effectiveness of those bodies.
Finally, as supportive of HEE as we are, it is hard to see in HEE work to date a clear strategy for developing the vital cadre of NHS managers that is needed to lead the NHS in the coming months and decades. There was a strong concern about this in Committee and the need for close working with HEE and the NHS Leadership Academy was acknowledged by the Minister. The Joint Committee wanted to see a statutory commitment for HEE to work in partnership with the academy, to ensure that managers in training work alongside their clinical colleagues and to increase the number of managers in the future who have clinical experience. Does the Minister not agree that this needs to be an explicit, upfront priority for HEE, which translates through to the work of LETBs? How will the Government ensure that this vital issue is addressed?
Earl Howe
My Lords, I turn first to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare. He has, of course, raised a very important matter. I think that it would be too ambitious for me to offer him complete comfort on this issue at the Dispatch Box, but I hope that I can give him some. It is essential that patients have their conditions diagnosed promptly and effectively. Both Health Education England and the other responsible bodies, such as the professional regulators and royal colleges that are involved in setting the standards and content of education and training, must work together to ensure that the latest best practice is followed to deliver the best possible outcomes for patients. That is fundamental.
Going further, I reassure the noble Lord that in delivering its education and training functions, Health Education England will be very focused on doing so in a manner that supports the efficient delivery of NHS and public health services and the achievement of the best possible outcomes for patients. Health Education England has a clear duty in Clause 89 to exercise its education and training functions with a view to securing continuous improvement in the quality of health services. Those are not idle words; they are significant.
It is also important to remember that the NHS Constitution includes pledges on access to NHS services, including the right to access services within maximum waiting times. The Government are clear that bodies in the new health system must support the NHS constitution, which is why in Clause 89 there is a clear duty for Health Education England to promote the NHS constitution.
Finally, the list in Clause 91 of matters that Health Education England must have regard to includes the Government’s mandate to NHS England. I reassure the noble Lord in that context that the mandate already contains an explicit objective for NHS England to make progress in supporting the earlier diagnosis of illness as part of preventing people from dying prematurely. I acknowledge that this is a very important matter. I hope that for the reasons I have set out the noble Lord will feel somewhat comforted and reassured, at least enough not to press his amendment. I have no doubt that this is a debate that we will continue to have at reasonably regular intervals.
The noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, asked what role Health Education England will play in developing NHS managers and whether it should be a priority for it. Health Education England is working closely with the Leadership Academy to support the development of the next generation of managers and clinical leaders. The Government included this as an objective in Health Education England’s mandate.
“(1A) HEE may arrange for any of its committees, sub-committees or members or any other person to exercise any of its functions on its behalf (but see sub-paragraph (4)).”
“( ) Subsections (1), (2) and (4) of section 89 (quality improvement in education and training etc.) apply to an LETB in the exercise of its functions as they apply to HEE in the exercise of its functions.”
( ) a person who will represent the interests of patients.”
Earl Howe
My Lords, at this point it will be convenient to consider also Amendments 166, 167 and 168. We have previously had some valuable debates about the Health Research Authority’s role in promoting transparency in research. I thank the Joint Committee that scrutinised the draft Bill and the Science and Technology Select Committee in the other place for their reports, which have informed Amendments 166 and 167.
In previous stages of the Bill’s passage, the noble Lords, Lord Patel, Lord Turnberg, Lord Warner and Lord Winston, the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, and my noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury have made particularly valuable contributions to the debate on this issue, which I have listened to with considerable interest. The Government have also discussed the Health Research Authority’s role in promoting transparency with stakeholders and with the existing special health authority.
The life sciences industry plays a key role in the Government’s strategy for economic growth and makes a valuable contribution to both the health and wealth of our nation. The Government agree that there is a powerful case for increasing transparency in clinical trials. Ensuring that research is registered and published and that data, information and tissue are available where relevant will help to make the best use of research, thereby maximising the health benefits for patients and the public from research undertaken and thus maximising the return on our investment in research. Amendment 166 makes it explicit that the Health Research Authority’s objective of facilitating the conduct of safe and ethical research includes promoting transparency in research. Amendment 167 lists some of the ways in which the HRA must promote transparency.
The existing special health authority is already making great strides in promoting transparency in research. The Health Research Authority published an action plan in May 2013, which received widespread support from a range of stakeholders including researchers, research sponsors, funders, professional bodies, stakeholders and members of the public with an interest in transparent research. Since 30 September, registration of clinical trials in a publicly accessible database has been a condition of favourable ethical approval from a research ethics committee.
These amendments will ensure that the Health Research Authority continues to promote greater transparency in research when it becomes a non-departmental public body. By doing so, that authority will continue to reassure people who participate in research that research is not duplicated unnecessarily and that unnecessary risks and burdens continue to be avoided. As promoting transparency in research is specifically included within its objective under Amendment 166, the Government would expect that the annual report would cover the authority’s measures to meet this section of its objective. While there is more to be done in this area, including by research funders, I hope that I have been able to reassure noble Lords that great strides are being taken and will continue to be taken.
Amendment 165 clarifies that the Health Research Authority may delegate any of its functions to any of its committees, sub-committees, members or any other person. The amendment mirrors a similar amendment that we have already debated with respect to Health Education England in Schedule 5—it was Amendment 157.
Finally, I would like to explain briefly Amendment 168, which corrects an oversight in the drafting of the Bill. It ensures that an appropriate body under the Mental Capacity Act (Appropriate Body) (England) Regulations 2006 is a research ethics committee recognised or established by or on behalf of the Health Research Authority, rather than a research ethics committee recognised by the Secretary of State.
I thank noble Lords and others for the contributions that have informed the amendments on the HRA’s role in promoting transparency in research. I hope that they will be welcomed. I beg to move.
Lord Willis of Knaresborough
My Lords, first, I declare an interest as the chair of the Association of Medical Research Charities. The brief comments that I am about to make are an amalgam of those made with the Academy of Medical Sciences, Cancer Research UK and the Wellcome Trust. On behalf of all those organisations, I can say how much we welcome these amendments and the way in which the HRA has so quickly become embedded into the research psyche. The work that it is doing ensures that on each of the major obstacles—of which ethics was the first, particularly in local ethics committees, but going right through to the regulation that it is starting to streamline, particularly with the Human Tissue Authority—we are really seeing a march forward. Frankly, the progress that has been made has staggered me. I congratulate not only the chairman and chief executive of that organisation but the Minister himself.
Lord Patel
I concur with what the noble Lord, Lord Willis of Knaresborough, just said. All of the research councils and charities support these amendments. There are the caveats to which he referred, particularly related to clinical trials and data. There is another important issue about the summary given at the conclusion of the research, which not only has to protect the confidentiality of the patients but also needs to be brief, because otherwise it is too cumbersome. On the whole, these amendments that we debated long and hard are most welcome.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
I also agree with the view that these are important headings. The precise detail has been mentioned by the noble Lord. Regarding paragraph (c) of Amendment 167, I think that access to the data is quite important although it requires consideration. It is important that the experiment or trial can be repeated. One of the difficulties in the past has sometimes been the announcement of research findings. When those in the same area tried to find out exactly what the findings were based on, there was some difficulty in repeating the experiment and occasionally there was something seriously wrong with the research. Therefore, access to the data certainly has to be kept in view if one is going to have proper transparency. However, I accept that, like paragraph (c) of Amendment 167 and the other paragraphs, it requires an amount of restriction in certain cases.
Baroness Wheeler
My Lords, I welcome the Government’s decision in Amendment 167 to support the recommendation of the Joint Committee on promoting transparency in research and ensuring full publication of the results of research consistent with patient confidentiality. It is right that this should be a statutory objective of the Health Research Authority. The arguments in support of this at the Committee stage from noble Lords were very compelling and, since then, have been strongly reinforced by the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee report into clinical trials and, indeed, the strategy and ongoing work undertaken by HRA itself.
In particular, HRA’s September announcement requiring registration of clinical trials in a publicly accessible database as a condition of ethical acceptance—taking up a longstanding recommendation of the Association of Medical Research Charities—recognises the overwhelming support for this agenda. The HRA has much to do in the coming months to develop its guidance into practical measures, but the Bill now gives clear and explicit direction to its work. The HRA has stressed that it expects the vast majority of researchers, sponsors and funders to embrace the plans to realise greater openness, responsible data sharing and publication of all results, and this is very welcome news.
It is so important for patients and the public to have confidence that the research they have been involved in will be used in the best way to improve understanding and health outcomes for the groups involved. Improved transparency is vital if more patients are to be encouraged to become involved in clinical research—one of the key ambitions of AMRC’s excellent vision for research in the NHS. The noble Lord, Lord Willis, referred to reservations. I was going to raise them and I am glad he did. I look forward to the Minister’s response. He may need to write to us in detail about those reservations and his response to that, or there might be a need for some small rewording of the draft provisions before Third Reading.
Finally, we recognise that the HRA is strongly committed to working with other bodies to overcome the barriers to transparency and create a culture of openness. Changing culture is, however, a tough call in the NHS. We also know from the AMRC research survey covering both doctors and nurses that we have a long way to go to get NHS staff to take part in research in the first place, let alone sign up to the transparency agenda. GPs are an important gateway for getting patients involved in research. However, although a majority of GPs surveyed believed it very important for the NHS to support research and treatment for their patients, only 32% of those surveyed felt it was very important for them to be personally involved. Will the Government ensure that HRA and HEE work closely on this very important issue of buy-in to research and transparency by NHS staff? How will they ensure that the CCGs fully engage in this agenda?
Earl Howe
My Lords, I am very grateful to noble Lords for their questions and comments. Without spending too much time, I shall try to cover the questions raised. Anything I do not cover, I undertake to answer in a letter. My noble friend Lord Willis asked a number of questions about how he should interpret the provisions in Amendment 167 in particular. Incidentally, it is important to point out that the way Amendment 167 is framed means that the HRA may do other things to promote transparency and research, not just the things that are listed in the amendment. The HRA should do what is set out in paragraphs (a) to (e), but it is not an exclusive list.
My noble friend asked me whether we should not be talking about registration of clinical trials instead of research. The amendment requires the HRA to promote the registration of research because we want to encourage transparency in all health and social care research. Greater knowledge about what research is under way or has already been undertaken is essential, so that new research can build on it, minimising the risks, intrusions and burdens for patients. We think that that applies to all research, not just clinical trials. The amendment requires the HRA to promote registration of research; it does not create a requirement for all research to be registered. I hope that that will ease my noble friend’s mind a little.
In delivering its objective of facilitating safe and ethical research, I would expect the HRA to take into account what databases are available for the registration of research, any existing requirements to register research, the need for requirements on registration to be proportionate and practical, and what is happening internationally. In doing so, presumably the HRA would consult stakeholders on achieving this part of its objective.
My noble friend asked me what is meant by,
“promoting … the provision of access to data on which research findings or conclusions are based”.
It is important that the data generated during research are made available to others, where possible, while protecting patient confidentiality. That helps to ensure that we maximise the benefit from investment in research. The Health Research Authority special health authority is currently planning to strengthen the research ethics committee review of researcher intentions, to make findings, data and tissue available. It is undertaking a pilot to consider whether the introduction of ethics officers will increase the proportion of favourable opinions at first review, improve the timelines of review and reduce the administrative burden on research ethics committees. That includes a review of researcher intentions to make findings, data and tissue available.
My noble friend referred to patient confidentiality. I stress, as I have on previous occasions, that in promoting the provision of access to data on which findings or conclusions are based, the common law duty of confidentiality and the Data Protection Act 1998 apply. The HRA will need to take account of these in delivering this part of its objective. We do not believe that it is necessary to state this explicitly in paragraph (c) of Amendment 167.
The noble Lord asked what is meant by,
“promoting … the provision of information at the end of research to participants in the research”.
Participants who take part in research have said that they want to be able to access the results of the research, and that was confirmed by recent HRA public engagement work. The HRA is working with others to set standards and provide guidance on how information should be provided to participants. Consideration of these plans against agreed standards will continue to be an issue for research ethics committees to review at approval. That work will continue through the HRA’s involvement work stream.
My noble friend questioned whether the results should be released to every participant, perhaps in aggregated form. It will be for the HRA, as an NDPB, to set out in its guidance for researchers its expectations as to the information they should provide to research participants at the end of the study. We would expect the HRA to develop its expectations, not only with stakeholders but with research participants themselves. We do not think that it is necessary to state explicitly that information should be in aggregated form.
As regards access to tissues, my noble friend made a good point. Human tissue is a valuable resource for research. Disposal should be a last resort. Making tissue available at the end of a study allows other researchers to make use of material already collected. Maximising potential for research from tissue collected helps to reduce the risks, burdens and intrusions placed on people by minimising the need to collect further tissue. Making tissue available at the end of a research study might involve the tissue being transferred to an appropriately licensed tissue bank, for example. We recognise that tissue has a limited life, and, through quality and assurance systems, tissue that should be disposed of is identified by either the tissue bank or the researcher. I can expand on that for my noble friend if he would like me to.
The noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, asked whether the Government would ensure that CCGs and NHS staff engage in research. I am pleased to remind her that CCGs have a duty to promote research under the Health and Social Care Act 2012. I hope that that has covered at least the majority of the questions.
“( ) Promoting transparency in research includes promoting—
(a) the registration of research;(b) the publication and dissemination of research findings and conclusions;(c) the provision of access to data on which research findings or conclusions are based; (d) the provision of information at the end of research to participants in the research;(e) the provision of access to tissue used in research, for use in future research.”
Universal Credit, Personal Independence Payment, Jobseeker’s Allowance and Employment and Support Allowance (Claims and Payments) Regulations 2013
(10 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord McKenzie of Luton
That this House is concerned that provisions in the Universal Credit, Personal Independence Payment, Jobseeker’s Allowance and Employment and Support Allowance (Claims and Payments) Regulations 2013 (SI 2013/380) to provide for the payment of universal credit awards on a monthly basis may result in budgeting pressures on low income families; and further regrets that universal credit awards being paid in respect of children or rent charges will not by default be paid to the main carer of the children or to the person liable for that charge, and expresses concerns that this may impact disproportionately on women and vulnerable members of society.
Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)
My Lords, the regulations before us this evening cover a range of matters, including the claims and payment arrangements and contributory ESA and JSA, as well as arrangements for claiming and payment of the personal independence payment. The thrust of this Motion is to focus on the awards and payment arrangements for universal credit. Of course, these regulations are only one set of a raft of regulations that we have considered concerning universal credit and other benefit changes. Some may be a distant memory in terms of the legislative process, but they are a looming reality for many. The context of all this has shifted dramatically since the start of the Summer Recess, when we were assured by the Minister that we could rest easy in our beds, that universal credit was on time and on budget and that everything was going swimmingly.
The Secretary of State told Parliament in March that universal credit,
“is proceeding exactly in accordance with plans”.—[Official Report, Commons, 5/3/2013; col. 827.]
However, the September NAO report uncovered the truth, describing how the Major Projects Authority raised concerns about the DWP having no detailed blueprint and transition plan for universal credit, which must therefore be reset. It recites that the Government will not introduce universal credit to all new out-of-work claimants nationally from October 2013, but will add a further six pathfinder sites this month. The NAO report emphasises that the pathfinder systems have limited function and do not allow claimants to change details of their circumstances online, as was originally intended. The department does not yet know the extent to which the new IT systems will support national rollout. In its October 2011 business case, the DWP expected the universal credit caseload to reach 1.1 million by April 2014; that reduced to 184,000 in the December 2012 business case. What is it now? Can the Minister tell us when the Government will set out a detailed plan for the full rollout of universal credit?
At a time when some of the poorest families in the land are being forced into debt by the bedroom tax and other measures, it is a scandal that the Government are writing off tens of billions of pounds of wasted expenditure because of their incompetent management of the universal credit programme. It is against this backdrop—where the department has delayed rolling out universal credit to claimants, has had weak control of the programme, is not achieving value for money, has been overoptimistic about timescales and has demonstrated lack of openness about progress—that we are obliged to return to some of the basic architecture of the scheme, to challenge whether it, too, has lacked the rigour of full analysis and, in particular, whether some of the protections against the worst impact of monthly payments are fit for purpose.
We cannot yet look to the April pathfinders for help as their scope is very narrow, covering where universal credit is applied to those who are single, are without children, are not claiming disability benefits, do not have caring responsibilities and are not entitled to housing support, but have a bank account and national insurance number. Clearly, these pathfinders will not tell us much about the impact of universal credit on low-income families and those who rent. The characteristics of those admitted to the further October pathfinders are not clear. Perhaps the Minister will tell us what those characteristics are and especially whether they will involve those who rent their homes. If not, at what point will universal credit be applied to those that do? So far as monthly payments are concerned, has the payments exception policy been applied yet to any recipient of universal credit under the pathfinders?
The substantive issues we raise tonight are not new—we raised them throughout our deliberations on the Welfare Reform Bill, and the Minister will doubtless hear from noble Lords with the same force and passion as was evident then. As our Motion sets out, our concerns are about the impact of monthly payments of universal credit on low-income families and about putting the clock back to the days where support for children did not go directly to the main carer and where the default position of rent support going directly to tenants increased the prospect of poor families losing their homes. We know that the justification for making monthly payments direct to claimants is that it will encourage personal budgetary responsibility and mirror the world of work. This is despite the fact that only half of those earning less than £10,000 a year are paid on a monthly basis. Life on benefits is not a comfortable existence for anyone who has tried it—and not just for a week here or there. There is the grinding awfulness of the poverty it brings, where there is simply no margin for error and where hanging on for the next payment date and juggling the cash to meet the next most pressing bill is the routine stuff of life. The temptation is to skip a payment here to meet a pressing payment there and risk becoming trapped in a cycle of debt.
How will monthly payments and assessments make things better? Research by the Social Market Foundation concludes that they will not, the Government’s exception policy notwithstanding. Although supporting the Government’s aim of encouraging greater personal responsibility and financial resilience, it concludes that changes to the payments and assessments system,
“could cause significant hardship for families on the lowest incomes”.
Its research outlined the budgeting methods that many households adopt to see them through, which inevitably involve debt of some sort, whether formal or informal. The households that it researched cited, in particular, the fact that more frequent payments served as a method to help them ration their income and restrain their spending. They feared that the larger payment might be spent too quickly, given the competing demands on their low income. On the exceptions policy, the Social Market Foundation expressed concern that a centralised system of identifying vulnerable claimants was an inefficient way of helping households and suggested an alternative of claimants being able to opt in to a budgeting portal. Have the Government given that any thought?
The Child Poverty Action Group focused on the “rough justice” that can ensue from monthly assessments where benefit claimants receive increased entitlements but which disadvantage claimants whose entitlement reduces. All of this is happening at a time when the discretionary social fund has been abolished along with crisis loans, community care grants and budgeting loans. They are to be replaced by payments on account or short-term advances and local welfare provision to be provided by local authorities. Short-term advances are much more restricted in scope than crisis loans and are only payable to benefit claimants in very tightly prescribed circumstances. As CPAG points out, that will not cover situations where a person has no, or insufficient, money to meet basic needs. Budgeting loans will continue to be payable to universal credit claimants, subject to strict criteria, on a discretionary basis with no right of appeal.
As for local provision, a recent Children’s Society report identified that money given to local authorities to replace community care grants and crisis loans is only a little over 50% of the equivalent spending at 2010 levels. Hard-pressed local authorities are in no position to make up any shortfall. Have any universal credit claimants under the current pathfinders been eligible for support for local welfare provision, short-term advances or budgeting loans, and what has been their experience?
We know that low-income families are poorly placed to cope with the current economic challenges. Some 10 million low-income households are in unsecured debt; three-quarters of those in the lowest income quartile have no cash savings. The cost of living squeeze is not only hitting the poorest, although it bears more heavily on them. Current levels of inflation will mean that universal claimants endure a real cut in their income at a time when energy bills are soaring and childcare costs are rising at almost 6% a year.
One thing is certain. For those who currently struggle to make their benefit receipt last until the end of the fortnight, the temptation to resort to payday lending will be enormous. For irresponsible payday lenders, the temptation to exploit an expanded market created by monthly payments will be irresistible, and with it the risk that continuous payment agreements will drain bank accounts as soon as benefit payments arrive. We applaud the work that the Minister is doing in encouraging the expansion of credit unions, but note that he is on record as seeking to restrict continuous payment agreements to accounts of benefit claimants until utility bills and rent have been accounted for. Could we have an update on that work? Will the Minister support the call that Ed Miliband has made for a special levy on these payday lenders, so that further moneys can be channelled into credit unions?
We raised the issue of the impact of universal credit payments on women, because time and time again it is women who are being hit hardest by this Government’s measures. It is women who are paying three times as much to get their deficit down, even though they still earn less than men. New mothers particularly are being hit, with House of Commons Library research showing that they will lose almost £3,000 during pregnancy and their baby’s first year.
My noble friend Lady Lister will say more about the wallet to purse issue, given her deep understanding of its history, and why the hard-won settlement should not be put in jeopardy. However, the Government have implicitly acknowledged the concerns we have raised about monthly payments, payments going to the main carer where children are involved, and payments going directly to landlords, because those have all been covered in their proposed alternative payment arrangements. As far as it goes, that is to be welcomed, but it raises a number of issues about how it will work in practice. The main concern is that this is a centralised system. Jobcentre Plus will decide whether an individual can have an APA and there is no right of appeal against an adverse decision. The key issue is whether Jobcentre Plus will have the capacity to make the determination a potential entitlement on a fair basis, given the range of circumstances that has to be taken into account.
Will the Minister indicate the expected number of claimants who will receive an alternative payment arrangement by, say, April 2014 and by full rollout? We have seen the first draft of the local support framework, which sets out the principles of the support that will be offered. However, what was planned as phase 2 of the universal credit rollout was supposed to provide the basis for the DWP and local authorities to start to plan these vital services. What is the plan now, given the revised universal credit rollout?
The Government have also launched demonstration projects to test how claimants can manage monthly payments of housing benefit. These are supposed to inform the final development and design of the exceptions policy. Will the Minister please update us on whether the projects will include any circumstances where monthly payments of rent are made under universal credit, rather than under the existing benefits regime?
We have supported the introduction of universal credit and will continue to do so, despite the project being seriously off-track. We have offered our support to help to restore confidence in the project. We have an unease about some of its components, especially combined monthly payments as the default position, and we will continue to press for the development of fair, comprehensive and practical exemption arrangements. We make no apology for promising to revisit these issues regularly and robustly. I beg to move.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)
My Lords, there are many issues raised by the claims and payments regulations, but I plan to focus on the two that I raised in our debates on the Bill itself: monthly payments and payment into single accounts. These are lumped together in the guidance on personal budgeting support in a way that is not very helpful, because there are different issues at stake—a point to which I will return. Nevertheless, some questions relate to both matters: most fundamentally on both, the Government have rejected the arguments made by many noble Lords for choice about payment arrangements in favour of a convoluted system of personal budgeting support, which I suspect is going to be pretty difficult and staff-intensive to administer.
The clear injunction in the guidance that alternative payment arrangements are not available through choice would appear to contradict the earlier claim in the guidance that they would be claimant-centric—that is, done with, rather than to, the claimant. While I am pleased that the policy is no longer couched in the language of exceptions and vulnerability, designed to make a claimant feel different, this still appears to be the underlying philosophy.
This is also revealed in the argument that alternative payment arrangements should be temporary, to avoid labelling claimants as financially incapable. However, it is the Government who are in effect labelling them as such, by requiring claimants, who may be managing as well as can be expected, to adapt to payment systems that might simply be inappropriate for their circumstances. This determination to change claimants’ behaviour smacks of the kind of social engineering that sits uneasily with both traditional Conservative and liberal philosophy.
In our previous debate on regulations, the Minister said that he would be able to provide more information about the department’s working assumptions on the number and proportion of claimants likely to be deemed to require personal budgeting support,
“as we work our way through”.—[Official Report, 13/2/13; col. 755.]
As that was eight months ago, is the Minister now in a position to provide more information, as requested by my noble friend Lord McKenzie of Luton in his excellent and passionate opening speech? In particular, will he provide the information regarding those requiring monthly or split payments? Does he accept SSAC’s warning that the range of claimants who require these facilities may be greater than anticipated?
Will the Minister also explain how personal budgeting support will work with couples? In the case of joint claimants, will just one or both need to demonstrate the facts as listed in the annexe to the guidance? Will the decision about whether it is needed be based on a joint interview? Will money advice be offered to both members of a couple and will the Minister also advise us about the progress made with financial products such as jam jar accounts, which he earlier presented as a solution to just about all payment problems?
In July, the Minister was still able to tell the Work and Pensions Select Committee only that he hoped to be,
“coming up with something in the not-too-distant future”.
That is not very encouraging. Has he also taken on board the Social Market Foundation’s warning that jam jar accounts, while potentially beneficial,
“have only partial applicability across the claimant population”,
because of strong resistance from a significant number? Part, though not all, this resistance was because of the likely cost to the claimant. As the Communities and Local Government Select Committee observed:
“More information is needed … on how these accounts would work and who would pay for them”.
The Social Market Foundation cites evidence from the financial inclusion taskforce of the lack of appetite for financial products among about half of the unbanked. Those without a bank or Post Office account will be able to use the Simple Payment service to receive their benefit. As the Minister confirmed in a Written Answer, the problem with this is that it requires claimants to withdraw the whole amount, and not part, of each benefit payment at the same time, up to a limit of £600. This is potentially a lot of cash to withdraw in one go and leaves the claimant vulnerable to both robbery and temptation. Although it is estimated that only about 60,000 working-age claimants will be paid in this way, it is a cause for concern. Why is it not possible to draw part of the payment, as this would surely often be the responsible thing to do?
This brings me to the question of monthly payments, because if it were a more frequent payment, this would not be such an issue. Since noble Lords from across the House first raised concerns about monthly payments, evidence has been mounting to demonstrate just how un-claimant-centric this policy is. It is clear, from both government and independent research, that a significant number of claimants—particularly those out of work—see this as posing a real risk to their financial security. They fear it will upset their budgeting strategies and leave them running out of money.
In a DWP press release about early findings from the direct payment demonstration projects, the Minister acknowledged that the findings,
“show that most people on low incomes manage their money well.”
As SSAC has noted, one of the key lessons was that:
“Budgeting support needs to recognise that people on low incomes often budget on a fortnightly or weekly basis.”
Has it not occurred to the noble Lord that there is a connection here? As the demonstration projects show, many people on low incomes use fortnightly or weekly budgeting strategies as a means of managing their money well. Research shows that mothers, in particular, often take great pride in doing so. By forcing them to change their budgeting strategies, the Government could be setting them up to fail, a message that comes across clearly from the SMF study cited by my noble friend.
That is likely to have an adverse impact on morale, as well as living standards and, in doing so, could undermine the very objective of making claimants more work-ready. Where a more frequent payment is agreed, it will be paid in arrears, in addition to the new seven-day waiting period for some claimants. As the Women’s Budget Group has pointed out, this means that,
“claimants would be paid only half what they are owed for the month seven days after the end of that month and will then wait another half month for the remaining half. This would seem to contradict the Government’s wish to help those who find monthly payment most difficult and can result in hardship cases and requests for advance payments.”
Women’s Aid, to which I am grateful for its briefing, warns that most survivors fleeing domestic violence will have no alternative to claiming a budgeting advance. I appreciate why the Government are not keen to make a half payment in advance, but does the Minister accept that it would create fewer problems than paying in arrears?
As I said earlier, the question of payment into a single account versus a split payment raises rather different issues to that of monthly payment, even if both are likely to have adverse gendered impact. It is about access to, and control over, money rather than about managing it. The erroneous treatment of split payments as a management issue is illustrated by the guidance on when to review alternative payments. It says that the adviser,
“will decide that the claimant is now capable of managing the standard monthly payment.”
Where a split payment has been granted because of domestic violence, as opposed to a partner’s financial mismanagement, such advice is surely irrelevant. On what basis will a decision whether to continue a split payment be made? Does the Minister accept that there may be some situations where it cannot be treated as a temporary measure?
At present, the guidance seems to suggest that split payments will be an option only in cases of financial abuse or domestic violence. Can the Minister confirm that they will not necessarily be restricted to such cases? With whom will an adviser discuss this question and, even more importantly, the initial decision to make a split payment? Will it be both partners, and if so, will it be discussed separately or together, or will it be just the partner in need of diversion? If the latter, what will the other partner be told about the interview? How will advisers negotiate with gendered power relations which are likely to be at work between the partners to ensure that they have a true picture of the situation?
The department’s study of the implementation of JSA DB easement revealed a reluctance to disclose domestic violence to advisers, a concern that was raised by SSAC. This is likely to be the case here too. How will advisers detect domestic abuse, particularly when it is not manifested physically? Where a male partner uses the threat of abuse of various kinds to control a female partner, it could well be kept hidden. What steps can be taken to ensure that a split payment, which reduces the money paid to the perpetrator, does not provoke further domestic violence? Will the Minister indicate what training in financial abuse and domestic violence is proposed for universal credit advisers? More generally, what is the department’s response to SSAC’s recommendation for an effective training programme designed to ensure that advisers have a sufficient understanding and capability to manage the complex and dynamic nature of risk and vulnerability within universal credit?
It is important that the evaluation does not conflate the effects of wrapping up a number of benefits in one payment with payment into a single account under the rubric of a single payment, as did earlier departmental research.
At present, the guidance seems to suggest that split payments will be an option only in cases of financial abuse or domestic violence. Can the Minister confirm that they will not necessarily be restricted to such cases? It is not always possible to foresee situations in which they might be appropriate, and it would therefore be wrong to rule out other scenarios in advance. Indeed, Fran Bennett, to whom I am grateful for her briefing, suggested adding the scenario where a lone parent with children from a previous relationship takes an unemployed new partner into her rented accommodation. It may not be conducive to the success of a new relationship if one partner has control of all their joint universal credit.
I apologise for asking so many questions, but I cannot find the answers in the public advice and guidance. Reading that guidance, I am not convinced that the department fully appreciates how delicate and difficult an issue this is in any couple where there are difficulties of any kind with regard to control over money. Indeed, only last week, in discussing other regulations, the Minister drew attention to the extent of domestic abuse. If the fears of organisations such as Women’s Aid are realised, I suspect that the Government will have to revisit the policy and rethink the default position to ensure that both members of a couple have direct access to their share of universal credit, if they want it.
The Government’s refusal to listen to reason on these key payment issues could derail the successful implementation of universal credit, which is already looking somewhat shaky, to put it kindly. During the passage of the Bill the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, said,
“if this is the nail in the shoe that gets the whole thing discredited because it does not work or gives rise to disturbing social consequences, we will have lost the great prize of universal credit that many of us want”.—[Official Report, 10/10/11; col. GC 434.]
We should remember the lessons from the child support legislation, when widespread consensus about key principles meant that insufficient scrutiny of the practical details led to one of the worst examples of social policy-making in recent history. I hope that even at this late stage, the Minister will take heed and remove the payments nail from the universal credit shoe.
Lord German (LD)
My Lords, I agree with some of the sentiments that we have just heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, and with some of those that we heard in the opening speech of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. It seems that there are questions which need to be asked and questions which are still outstanding. However, perhaps some of the clues to the answers that we need to those questions can be found within the noble Lord’s opening speech. He said that we do not yet have the evidence from the rollout of universal credit to give us the learning pattern that we need to establish the route forward for some of the detailed questions which lie before us. They are real issues.
The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for bringing this matter to our attention again, and for the three powerful speeches which we have already heard. First, I want to emphasise my concern about that part of the Motion which speaks of the way in which universal credit awards paid in respect of children will not necessarily by default be paid to the main carer of the children and the disproportionate impact this will have on women. Through my work, I have become increasingly aware of the mother’s crucial role in the sorts of situations that we have been discussing over the past few minutes and indeed over the past few years. The mother needs to have proper control of the money which is coming for the benefit of the family and in respect of her children. I hope that in our discussions and the way in which the regulations and the whole universal credit system are worked out we shall be able to pay attention to the mother’s role, which in many circumstances is crucial when the whole family is under severe stress.
Secondly, I share the concerns which have been expressed by all previous speakers about the impact of the monthly payments system. It is already beginning to make it more difficult to control the finances of the family and, as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, said, there is the danger of opening the way for payday lenders. We are already seeing considerable growth in the work of payday lenders. That in itself is not yet due to universal credit but my fear is that universal credit will become a factor as the monthly payment system comes into being.
I wanted to take up one particular detail of the regulations which fits in with the monthly payment concerns but is also specific. Regulation 26 of Part 2 speaks of the back-dating of universal credit and limiting that back-dating to some very narrow categories. This contrasts with the present situation for tax credits, which can be back-dated for up to 31 days so long as the claimant meets the rule of entitlement throughout that period.
I raise that question for two reasons. One is that many people will become eligible for universal credit at the birth of a new child—a particularly difficult moment to be making your claim. Secondly, the regulations acknowledge the possibility of the failure of systems. However, it will be hard to prove that failure if a claim is delayed or not made until three or four weeks after the claimant is entitled to make it, especially if that reason involves the inability of the claimant to access the system, whether due to a fault in the system itself or due to the claimant’s online skills.
What I would like the Minister to say to us is that one-month’s back-dating would be legitimate without a particular reason needed for it. That would reduce bureaucracy and would reduce the complexity of making claims. If he cannot do that, then at least there should be a back-dating for families who have become eligible for universal credit because they have had a new child and are busy with the celebration of its birth. That should happen without the requirement for “medical evidence” to demonstrate the incapacity to claim. Not getting online at the point when you are having a child seems to me to be a self-evident reason for delay in making your claim. There are far more important things to be doing on the day of the birth of your child, are there not?
Can the Minister clarify the circumstances under which a claimant is considered unable to make a claim online as a result of system failure, and whether that can include not just a direct failure of the system but also the difficulties that individuals are facing and will face in getting online to make a claim? I hope that the Minister will be able to give some reassurance so that people do not miss out on credits to which they are entitled by the regulations.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab)
My Lords, I will follow the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds in his point about going online. First, I want to say, as others have said, that I very much support universal credit and I am watching with wry horror now the number of people being taken to court for failure to pay the £2 or £2.50 owed on their council tax bills by virtue of the localised council tax system. One wishes that some other parts of the Government had listened to some of the debates that we had in Grand Committee on that subject.
Like others, I am concerned about where some of the cuts are going to fall. In particular, I remain worried by the disincentives to second earners, usually women, in couples whom we want to encourage to go back into the labour market. We increasingly make it less financially worth while that they should do so. I think that is very foolish indeed.
However, my biggest concern has been not just the payment problems, which my noble friends Lady Lister and Lord McKenzie have mentioned, but the assessment issues associated with them. Perhaps I may remind the noble Lord that, as far as I am aware, most of the pathway schemes and experiments so far have been with younger people in urban areas. They are more likely to be IT-literate and more likely to have access to IT facilities. I am chair of a housing association that runs across a rural county. A substantial proportion of my older tenants have no access to WPs. Of those who do, only 14%, when I had my last tenants’ conference, actually used them for financial matters, such as the handling of bank accounts and so on. In order for those other tenants to be able to claim universal credit, they have somehow to access a WP. I have four centres across the county of Norfolk—in King’s Lynn, Norwich, Dereham and Great Yarmouth, and possibly North Walsham, but we will see—in which we will set up local offices. There will be terminals and there will be people to guide people through their applications. That is fine, except that people may have to go on something like a 15-mile bus ride to make their application. Because it is a paperless system, they will not be able to correct any mistakes online. They will not be able to answer any queries about the information. They will not be able to follow it up because they will be back home.
I tried to see whether there was any way I could bring IT facilities to people in that situation. I considered, for example, whether I could provide terminals in people’s homes inexpensively, possibly through a leasing system. Yes, I could, except that those same tenants cannot afford to pay the broadband or dial-up charges. So I cannot put them online in their homes. I then thought about whether I could in some way get them smartphones to give them some online access. No, they cannot afford the charges of smartphones. So they cannot afford to go online. Indeed, in some parts of Norfolk you cannot even get access to broadband, but that is another matter. We have only 90% coverage, so sod the 10%. No doubt they will get their money somehow. None the less, in large parts of Norfolk, there will be a large number of people who have no access to terminals in their home or to a smartphone, who have no computer skills, who have to go into a local centre, and who, if any mistake is made, will have no ability to correct it.
You may think that assessment will be only once a year or once every six months and therefore this is a minor problem compared with the payment issues. I hope that is right, but one of the crucial reasons why the old CSA computer toppled over, which was at the core of the failure of the CSA to deliver the service it should have delivered, was that half of all lone parents had more than 12 changes of circumstances in a year. They were largely associated with changes in childcare at each holiday period because it did not fit the school’s working time or the mother’s work patterns. You can get real-time information from an employer about income, but you cannot get real-time information in the same way for ever-changing childcare bills. That means that that lone parent or that couple will have to reassess, reclaim and adjust their UC online as it is going to be paperless. Will the Minister tell me how I should respond to this? I have hundreds of tenants who at the moment have no IT skills, no access to gaining them, although I am trying to do crash courses where people are willing to take them, no terminals at home, no ability to afford dial up if it were to exist and no access to phones. How are they going to input the information they need to input to get the money they are entitled to? I would be glad of some help on this point.
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)
I shall make a short contribution to this important debate. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for introducing it. Using a Motion of Regret is clunky, but this is important. I shall start with a question about parliamentary process. Things have changed since the old days. In my experience of parliamentary change of this kind, Bills were much less far reaching and were implemented over a much shorter timescale. After the six-month period of purdah, Ministers could always explain the unfolding of the regulations that flowed from the primary Act. We are getting to a stage where we are paying more attention to guidance rather than to statutory instruments. Statutory instruments are becoming almost as skeletal as the primary legislation. Therefore, how are parliamentarians able to keep up with what is going on, particularly when this is at least a five-year implementation phase? I think it would be a good trick if the Government could achieve it in a five-year period.
In parenthesis, I want to strengthen the Minister’s hand. Speaking for myself, I am much more interested in getting this universal credit reform right than I am in sticking to any timetable, political or otherwise. I have next to no interest in what will happen in May 2015 compared with this important legislation. It is transformational architecture, but because it is transformational, it is difficult to deliver for reasons that we have heard.
It is not just that it is taking five years to do. It is now intimately engaged with other government departments. HMRC is the prime one, but not the only one. There is also DCLG—is it DCLG or DCLM?
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope
Thank you. I am Scottish. Luckily it does not apply to me.
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope
I know.
We have a lot of extra heavy lifting to do to try to make sense of what is going on. If that was not enough, we have for the first time a completely transformational application of ICT technology in digital delivery. All that means that this has to be done slowly and sensitively. I would like to think that the kind of flexibility that the Minister showed in the seminal Committee stage of the 2012 Act is still available to us because if he is not sensitive to the sort of things that are being raised he risks prejudicing public perception of what he is trying to do, as the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, said.
I am absolutely certain that the vast majority of people who will need to take advantage of universal credit in future are literate and have internet access. We know from government research that the penetration of digital technology is increasing and will continue to do so. It is the two lowest deciles of income distribution in terms of household income that I continue to lose sleep about—people who earn less than £10,000 a year. We have been hearing about some of these acute problems and they are just as acute as they were in 2012. I understand that we have to hasten slowly to get this right, but we have to find a better way of informing Parliament about what is going on. I think the next set of detailed guidance that we can expect—my spies tell me and my spies are everywhere—will be in the late summer of 2014 and the next substantial rollout might not be until the spring of 2015. How are we, as parliamentarians, to keep up with what is actually going on? Reading the newspapers is not always helpful because, although they can highlight some of the problems, they do not tell the whole story.
I make a plea to the Minister. Can he think about ways of dealing with this other than Motions of Regret? It is a game we can all play, and we could do it every month if we had to, but I think there is a more grown-up way of accepting that, for the next two years and, indeed, for the rest of this Parliament, there will be periods when the Government could find a parliamentary opportunity for us to have a sensible discussion, be given reassurances and ask these detailed questions which are so important, not just to us, but to the people outside.
I agree with everything that has been said about the monthly payment, particularly by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister. That is probably my biggest worry. I know that she has more expertise than I about the split payments, but I listened carefully to what she had to say and I think that her questions deserve answers. The additional problem of behavioural change, on top of everything else, is something that is too dangerous, and I wish we were not doing it at all. Maybe we could do it in future, when this gets straightened out, but it is too risky to do it in this way.
My final point before I sit down, because it is late, is that the SSAC has done a very good job. I still remember the long look I got down the ministerial nose when I suggested this at the beginning. This was my idea, because I thought it would help. Luckily, the Minister eventually took my advice. The SSAC has done a remarkable job and I hope that the Minister will continue to involve it. Although it does not have any statutory control over guidance, if we get to the position where guidance is needed, such as in the definition of what is vulnerable, and we cannot get that clear with the stakeholders that the SSAC knows and works with so well, then we will be lost when this gets implemented. I hope that the Minister will give us an assurance that the SSAC will have a key and continuing role in this evaluation and monitoring process. Otherwise, it will be more difficult to achieve successfully.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud) (Con)
My Lords, I should genuinely like to thank everyone who has spoken today. I want to emphasise that I listen very closely to what noble Lords say in this House and, without shame, steal as many of the good ideas as I can. This is not just with a long nose, using SSAC, which has done an extraordinary job in helping us to sort out not just the regulations on universal credit but a lot of other things, too. I shall describe some of what we have been doing since we went through that committee and some of the ideas that we debated together then which I have tried to use and embed.
I hope also to allay some of the concerns expressed by noble Lords. When one has a new canvas, as we have here, one can worry about absolutely everything. It is important to be alert to the issues that one needs to worry about and then, as the evidence comes in, to see what the real problems are and to be able to move. We have laid out this evening a range of possible things that could go wrong. Some of them may go wrong and we will need to do something about them. Others may not emerge as issues, so it is important that we are watching this like a hawk.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
I am very sorry to prolong matters. I quite understand that it has not been possible to answer all the questions asked, but will the Minister undertake to write to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate with detailed responses to the questions that have been asked?
Lord Freud
I have tried to answer absolutely everything. I will double check. If I have missed anything, I will write on it, but my answers are on the record. I think that I answered virtually everything, but if there is anything more, I will make sure that I cover it.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who spoke in this debate. It has been a debate of some quality and detail. I also thank the Minister for his very detailed reply. Like my noble friend, I think it would be good to look at the record to see what, if anything, might be outstanding. We acknowledge that the Minister listens to the House and certainly responds to the House—for 28 minutes on this occasion.
We welcome the announcement about credit unions. That is good news. As the Minister will, I hope, have understood, we are on the same page as far as support for universal credit is concerned. We are all signed up to a single in and out of work payment. We welcome the fact that the Minister has accepted the Major Projects Authority’s recommendations. On that, and touching on a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, about helping us keep abreast of what is happening, there was a contrast between our perception about where universal credit was when we went on holiday and the rather rude awakening of the NAO report. I hope there is a way of smoothing that in future.
We have news about a further six pathfinders starting this month. The scope of the people involved in them is still a little unclear, as is whether it is still the fairly narrow category that we started with in April and, in particular, whether it excludes people who rent their accommodation. On the pathfinders—this again touches on one of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood—we do not want this to be rushed; we want it to be right. As I understand it, some of the early pathfinders are focused on helping subsequent policy development. That is why it is important that there is some co-ordination.
I thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds for his support. We are on the same page in concerns about payday lenders. The right reverend Prelate did get an answer about the backdating of universal credit. Whether it is sufficient, he may wish to reflect. He made the telling point about the crucial role of mothers in the evaluation and understanding of how universal credit should work.