Oral Answers to Questions
Nick Harvey Excerpts(13 years, 2 months ago)
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Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
8. What assessment he has made of the co-operation on training and support of British armed forces with armed forces in the middle east and north Africa; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey)
Defence engagement has a long and continuing role in contributing to wider UK regional objectives through programmes of world-class training and education. Our relationship with many countries includes work on counter-terrorism that is important to the security of the United Kingdom. That engagement creates lasting relationships with our armed forces and enhances our ability to work together towards regional security and stability.
Kevin Brennan
Have British armed forces played any role in the training of forces involved in repression in Saudi Arabia or Bahrain?
Nick Harvey
We do not believe so, but we have trained staff over a period of years in those countries, and it is impossible to say with any certainty what they have subsequently gone on to do. When engaging in training programmes, we do our utmost to spread British principles and approaches to military activity, and have done so for many years, in the hope that that will rub off on the countries we are training.
Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con)
Having been involved in a very similar training team, albeit some time ago, I can confirm the value of such training teams, but the weight and burden of those teams falls heavily on the combat arms. Can the Minister reassure the House that cuts in personnel will take into account the need to maintain our combat power for training roles such as those under discussion?
Nick Harvey
My hon. Friend makes a good point. Obviously, as numbers contract, the demands put on all our personnel are difficult to balance, but the work to which he alludes, and to which he has given his time in the past, is very important for all the reasons that I have specified, and we will ensure that that is taken into account in deciding force numbers.
Mr Jim Murphy (East Renfrewshire) (Lab)
I join in the Secretary of State’s earlier condolences to the relatives of those who have lost their lives in Afghanistan. The whole House will be in awe of the remarkable professionalism of our forces, and all that they have achieved in Libya as part of a wider coalition, so will the Minister for the Armed Forces update the House on progress in persuading other allies who are less involved in the fighting to bear more of the burden in helping to train and stabilise the country?
Nick Harvey
The shadow Secretary of State makes a very good point, and that is certainly something we would want to see as we go forward. There are countries that we hoped would have played a more active part in the engagement in Libya, and we very much hope that they will bear more of the responsibility. It is too early yet to have any particular international agreements in place, but he can rest assured that work is in progress towards the objective that he identified.
Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)
9. What recent assessment he has made of the export prospects for the Eurofighter Typhoon.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
11. What procedures exist to ensure that British military equipment used in operations abroad does not fall into the hands of others.
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey)
Robust accounting and security measures exist to prevent the loss of equipment through theft. In the rare event that equipment is damaged and cannot be recovered because of a risk to life or likely loss of further equipment, it is destroyed to prevent it from being used by others.
Steve McCabe
I thank the Minister. In the light of his response, can he say anything more about the announcement at the weekend of a £1 million fund to stop weapons proliferation in Libya? Does that fall within his domain, and exactly what is that money going to be used for?
Nick Harvey
The concerns that we have in Libya do not relate to our own equipment that our troops have used, but relate to a proliferation of equipment that we believe may now be at large in Libya, much of it having been previously held by the Gaddafi regime. It is in the interests of everyone around the globe that that situation is contained and controlled as quickly as possible, and we have sent personnel out to assist the new Government in Libya in getting those munitions under control.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the report by the Select Committee on Defence on the handling of assets by the Ministry of Defence in 2009-10 is another damning indictment of the mismanagement of the MOD under the previous Government?
Nick Harvey
It is true that there has been a problem with inventories and accounting for equipment. Audit processes have identified that, on occasions, that has been a matter of misclassification of items. The situation in practice is probably less gloomy than it sometimes looks in reports.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
19. What steps he is taking to ensure that any increase in the level of defence exports is transparent.
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey)
The UK has one of the most rigorous and transparent export control systems in the world. All applications to export controlled military goods are assessed against the consolidated EU and national arms export licensing criteria, and decisions are published in the quarterly reports on strategic export controls. Following the Arab spring, the Foreign Secretary undertook a review of export licensing for equipment that might be used for internal repression. That concluded
“that there was no evidence of any misuse of controlled military goods exported from the United Kingdom.” —[Official Report, 18 July 2011; Vol. 531, c. 79WS.]
Tom Brake
In July the Foreign Secretary said that more work needed to be done between the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to strengthen certain aspects of UK arms control. There is an even greater urgency for this work to be done following reports today of an investigation into a EADS Saudi defence contract. Can the Minister set out what work has been done on transparency and UK arms control and how, with a policy of providing weapons to any willing country, he will ensure that those weapons do not fall into the wrong hands?
Nick Harvey
Every export licensing application is considered on a case-by-case basis against our strict export controls. In terms of transparency, detailed information on our export policy is on the Foreign Office website. Information on decisions by destination is listed on the BIS website, and the licensing criteria are also published. My right hon. Friend is right to say that further work is ongoing between the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Foreign Office, and they are at present working out how that will be taken forward.
Dr Huppert
The Minister is, I am sure, aware of the number of cases in which there have been allegations that defence exports have ended up with people whom we would not want to have them and used for purposes that we would not want to see. He will also be aware that there are a number of cases of defence lobbyists acting in a shady and disreputable manner. Will he consider taking further steps to ensure transparency in who gets the weapons, what checks there are and how lobbyists operate?
Nick Harvey
The Government are committed to a thriving British defence and security industry because it is vital for our economy. It is worth more than £6 billion a year to the economy, but we will maintain strict export controls. We promote defence exports that are consistent with the criteria, because that strengthens British influence and helps support British industry and jobs.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
We all want a strong defence industry, but we also want a responsible one, which is why I am proud of the fact that it was a Labour Government who abolished the manufacture, use and sale of cluster munitions in this country. The protocol also places an obligation on us to try to make sure that other countries, including our allies, are no longer using cluster munitions, because all too often such use means that many civilians are killed or maimed many years afterwards. What are the Government doing now to make sure that the Americans stop using cluster munitions?
Nick Harvey
I very much agree with the hon. Gentleman’s comments; I, too, was a campaigner on that issue. I am very pleased that the UK duly signed up to that, but clearly our ability to control the US is no greater now than it was at the time of the convention. We will continue to apply pressure on the Americans, but we need to be realistic about the likelihood of their changing their policy.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
What discussions has the Minister had with our European partners to ensure that when a licence is refused by the United Kingdom, similar steps are taken by our European partners and they do not take advantage of our progressive approach to export licensing abroad?
Nick Harvey
That is a good question. I will check what sharing of information we have with our EU allies when we turn down an application, and I will write to the hon. Gentleman in due course.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
14. What meetings he has had with his ministerial colleagues on the stabilisation of Libya.
UK-Norway Initiative Workshop
Nick Harvey Excerpts(13 years, 3 months ago)
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The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey)
The UK has long been committed to the long-term goal of a world without nuclear weapons. As part of the coalition agreement the Government agreed that we would maintain Britain’s nuclear deterrent and press for continued progress on multilateral disarmament. The Prime Minister announced a number of disarmament measures as a part of the strategic defence and security review (SDSR) on 19 October 2010. On 29 June 2011 [Official Report, columns 50-51WS] the Secretary of State for Defence announced the early commencement of the programme for implementing the SDSR warhead reductions: at least one of the Vanguard class ballistic missile submarines (SSBN) now carries a maximum of 40 nuclear warheads.
As part of our efforts to make progress on multilateral disarmament, we undertook to build trust and confidence between nuclear and non-nuclear weapon states, and committed to take tangible steps towards a safer and more stable world where countries with nuclear weapons feel able to relinquish them. Over a decade ago the Ministry of Defence, together with the atomic weapons establishment, established a disarmament and arms control verification research programme. This work is ongoing and since 2007 we have also been working with Norway to develop some of the techniques that may be required to ensure compliance with any future nuclear disarmament process. This is the first time a nuclear weapon state and a non-nuclear weapon state have worked together in this way. Our work with Norway has demonstrated that nuclear and non-nuclear weapon states alike are able to make an active contribution to disarmament through verification research, while still complying with their non-proliferation obligations. Furthermore, the co-operation of non-nuclear weapon states in nuclear disarmament verification research is necessary in order to achieve effective and mutually trusted verification solutions.
As announced at the P5 conference (30 June-1 July 2011), the UK will host a confidential expert-level meeting of the P5 in early 2012 to discuss lessons learned from the UK’s work with Norway on the verification of nuclear warhead dismantlement. I wish to inform the House that we now intend to share these important lessons with additional non-nuclear weapon states. To this end, the Ministry of Defence, in partnership with Norway, will host a workshop in London in early December 2011. This will enable us to share our progress with technical experts from non-nuclear weapon states that have expressed an interest in the research conducted so far.
This verification research advances progress towards our long-term goal of a world without nuclear weapons, and further demonstrates the Government’s commitment to fulfilling the UK’s disarmament obligations under the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. The Government remain committed to maintaining the minimum credible deterrent necessary to achieve our deterrence objectives of guaranteeing national security.
Air Force
Nick Harvey Excerpts(13 years, 5 months ago)
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Nick Harvey
A copy of the risk management strategy for the former air weapons range at Goswick Sands will be placed in the Library of the House.
The risk management strategy was written at the request of the RAF by the Ministry of Defence's Environmental Science Group (ESG). RAF subject matter experts and other stakeholders were consulted and a number of corrections were incorporated into the final document within Table 8.3. These downgraded the risk level of an accidental explosion resulting from contact with horses on the beach or deliberate tampering.
The correct answer should have been:
Nick Harvey
A copy of the risk management strategy for the former air weapons range at Goswick Sands will be placed in the Library of the House.
The risk management strategy was written at the request of the RAF by the Ministry of Defence's Environmental Science Group (ESG). RAF subject matter experts and other stakeholders were consulted and a number of corrections were incorporated into the final document within Table 8.3. These downgraded the risk level of an accidental explosion resulting from contact with horses on the beach or deliberate tampering. The risk level was also reduced for other users including walkers and other recreational users, people digging with bucket and spade, bait diggers, fishermen, recreational off roaders, farmers and persons lighting fires and barbeques.
Oral Answers to Questions
Nick Harvey Excerpts(13 years, 5 months ago)
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Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
16. What recent assessment he has made of the security situation in the middle east and north Africa; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey)
As the Foreign Secretary has said, demands for greater political, social and economic participation will continue in the middle east and north Africa. We assess that the security situation will remain fragile unless Governments in the region work to fulfil the aspirations of their people.
Karen Lumley
Will my hon. Friend assure the House that the UK has sufficient resources in place to honour its commitment under UN Security Council resolution 1973 and continue operations in Libya for as long as is necessary?
Nick Harvey
I am pleased to give precisely that confirmation. As the Chief of the Defence Staff has said, we can sustain the operation for as long as necessary. We have flexible and adaptable forces. That is not to say that sustaining operations will not put stress on people and assets, but we are perfectly capable of doing so, and nobody should be in any doubt about our determination.
Paul Uppal
It is as well to remind the House that the international community came together to avert an injustice and a massacre in Benghazi. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is essential that we keep that international community cohesion and effort on this most pressing issue?
Nick Harvey
My hon. Friend makes a good point. The international community acted very speedily to deter the threat to civilian life in Libya. The sustaining of that effort in Libya is absolutely international in nature. It is essential to a successful outcome that all involved retain that cohesion and determination of purpose, and that all involved plan for what will follow, which was questioned a minute ago.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that a Palestinian state with Hamas in part control is a major defence threat, not just to Israel but to the wider region? Does he also agree that there should be no recognition of a Palestinian state until Hamas recognises Israel’s right to exist, renounces violence and recognises existing treaties?
Mr Speaker
Order. I am sure the Minister will answer with reference to the responsibilities of the Ministry of Defence.
Nick Harvey
Those are pre-eminently matters of foreign policy which my hon. Friend should put to the Foreign Secretary, who will have heard the question and will reflect upon it.
Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)
In terms of the killing of civilians, torture, repression, and the export and support of terrorism, does the Ministry of Defence draw any distinction between Colonel Gaddafi and Bashar al-Assad of Syria; and if so, what is it?
Nick Harvey
Again, that is predominantly a question of foreign policy, but clearly the foreign policy circumstances are very different in the two countries. In the case of Libya, a regional power invited an intervention and a UN Security Council resolution authorised all necessary force. In the case of Syria, no regional body is inviting an intervention; more to the point, as yet, there has been no progress on a UN resolution, although the UK has a draft before the UN.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
As the Minister knows, the situation in Yemen is now critical. Have the Government received any request from the acting President of Yemen for military assistance by way of advisers or any other assistance whatever?
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
Does the Minister recognise that new threats to the UK following the Arab spring make the national security strategy out of date? Will he update the strategy in the light of those recent events?
Nick Harvey
The national security strategy anticipated a variety of threats from different parts of the globe throughout its 10-year time frame. It proposed that we should have flexible and adaptable forces that are capable of responding to different scenarios in different ways at different times. The momentum of activity following the uprisings in north Africa and the middle east has called us into action, but that action has so far shown to be perfectly manageable within the arrangement that the strategic defence and security review laid down. No reason has been provided at this stage for anybody to contemplate a different arrangement.
Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con)
4. What steps his Department is taking to promote defence exports.
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey)
As we set out in the strategic defence and security review, under Future Force 2020 the future surface Navy will have a world-class carrier strike capability, with 19 frigates and destroyers, including the state-of-the-art Type 45 destroyer; an amphibious fleet able to land and sustain a commando group from the sea; 14 mine countermeasures vessels; a global oceanographic survey capability; and a fleet of resupply and refuelling vessels. Work is also under way on the requirements and design of the Type 26 global combat ship, our next generation frigate.
Dr Lewis
I am encouraged by that response. Does the Minister remember when he and I sat on parallel Opposition Benches under the previous Government as the size of the frigate and destroyer fleet went down successively from 35 to 32 to 31 to 25 and then to 19? Will he specifically confirm that that figure of 19 frigates and destroyers will not be reduced to a pathetically inadequate baker’s dozen, as posited in some parts of the press?
Nick Harvey
I can certainly confirm that the situation remains unchanged from the SDSR. The future force will comprise 19 destroyers and frigates. It was a matter of great regret that the Government had to make a range of cuts in the SDSR, but that was a result of the general economic climate and, specifically, of the defence black hole that we inherited.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
On the size of the surface fleet, the First Sea Lord told the Defence Committee on 11 May:
“We would be challenged to find further platforms to rotate through, and to continue to maintain the overseas commitments that are standard operating requirements.”
Will the Minister tell the House exactly how the Royal Navy will sustain its operations in Libya, and what impact those operations are having on the Royal Navy’s ability to deliver what was set out in the SDSR?
Nick Harvey
As I said in answer to an earlier question, there is no denying that the pace and longevity of operations in Libya put a stress on the fleet. However, the Libyan operation is a high priority, and we will ensure that it has the necessary resources. HMS Liverpool remains on task in the Mediterranean in support of the NATO-led operations. We have plans for her relief in due course but, for operational security reasons, I am not going to say which ship will be involved.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
7. What assessment he has made of the Typhoon and Apache platforms in Operation Ellamy.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
13. What input his Department has had to the arms export review being undertaken by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey)
MOD officials have engaged with Foreign Office colleagues on the review of export licensing previously announced on 16 March by the Foreign Secretary.
Simon Hughes
Given the considerable interest that there has been in export licences in relation to the middle east and north Africa, and the desire of many of our constituents to see a change in the old regime and system and a reduction in arms sales abroad, will my hon. Friend tell us whether we are likely to have the results of the review before the summer recess, and whether we will have an opportunity to debate them on the Floor of the House?
Nick Harvey
I understand that the intention is to publish the findings of the review before the summer recess, but whether there will be the opportunity to debate them in the House is not a matter for me. I assure my right hon. Friend, however, that we continue to operate on a case-by-case basis in the middle east in relation to fresh applications for export licences.
Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
The recent joint report by the Committees on Arms Export Controls recommended that the Government publish a full statement on how they apply criterion 8 relating to sustainable economic development when making decisions about arms export licences. Will the Minister give his commitment that the Department will follow and adopt that recommendation?
Nick Harvey
I must make it clear that the responsibility for defence export licences lies with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, which consults the Foreign Office on specific criteria and the Ministry of Defence on other criteria. I assure my hon. Friend that, in so far as is relevant to the issues on which we are asked to advise, the Ministry of Defence agrees entirely with the points that he makes, but such matters are pre-eminently for the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
15. What recent assessment he has made of the security situation in Afghanistan; and if he will make a statement.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
T5. My constituency is home to a large number of reserve armed forces members, who welcome the review of their role. May I ask the Secretary of State whether that review will recognise their capacity, capabilities and willingness to integrate with the regular armed forces?
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey)
I entirely agree with my hon. Friend about the excellent work done by our reserve forces. I have been thoroughly impressed with the commitment and skill that they have shown when I have met them, including in Afghanistan. As he knows, a review is being led by the Vice-Chief of the Defence staff and my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier), and their report is in the process of being finalised. I expect them to deliver that report shortly and it would be inappropriate to comment further at this time.
Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)
Will the Secretary of State confirm whether he has any plans to reduce the size of the Army post-2015?
Armed Forces Bill
Nick Harvey Excerpts(13 years, 6 months ago)
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The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey)
Our position then, as today, was that we are only too ready to share with hon. Members any information that we have and that we compile. As the hon. Gentleman knows only too well, the previous Government ceased to compile that information, and frankly for very good reason. It was unreliable information being measured against an old and out-of-date baseline. No defence decisions were being made in the light of that information. It is several years since that information has been compiled. We are happy to share with him any information that we have in this regard, but we do not have that information any longer.
Angus Robertson
I am terribly sorry, but I just do not think that is good enough. I know that the Minister has just arrived, and no doubt he has come from an important engagement, but before he arrived I was making the case that there are very good reasons to continue to have this information. It seems to me that the very good reasons in the MOD for stopping the publication of these datasets is that, frankly, they are so embarrassing.
I return to the turn of events, which it is important for Members to understand. Having received those assurances from the Minister for the Armed Forces in this Chamber, I wrote a grateful letter to him:
“I wanted to thank you personally for your unambiguous commitment during this week’s debate on the Strategic Defence and Security Review that the new Coalition Government will continue to publish both employment and defence spending statistics for the nations and regions of the United Kingdom… Towards the end of the term of office of the last government it was proving difficult to secure these important statistics and I am appreciative that you have given such a clear assurance that they will continue to be published.”
In the blink of an eye—I assume it was written as soon as my letter arrived in the Minister’s private office—I received a letter back saying much the same as he has just said from the Dispatch Box. In an instant, the Ministry of Defence reneged on a promise made in the House of Commons and in the coalition agreement that there would be openness and transparency. There are also vital clues that should concern everybody who cares about the defence footprint across the UK. Apparently, the Government think that there is
“no clear defence benefit to be gained”
from collating statistics by region and nation, and national and regional data do not
“directly support MOD policy making”.
That will come as a shock to many people, not least the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, who has said publicly in terms that economic considerations will form part of the basing review. How on earth can we have an informed debate when the Government do not even provide the statistics?
Libya
Nick Harvey Excerpts(13 years, 6 months ago)
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Urgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
Each Urgent Question requires a Government Minister to give a response on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Mr Jim Murphy (East Renfrewshire) (Lab)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State to update the House on military deployments in Libya.
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey)
Pursuant to United Nations Security Council resolution 1973, NATO-led air strikes have been successful in reducing Colonel Gaddafi’s ability to attack his people, but he continues to target civilians in clear contravention of UN Security Council resolutions and international law. As the Foreign Secretary has said, it is now necessary to intensify the military, economic and diplomatic pressure on the Gaddafi regime.
We constantly review our military operations to ensure that we can continue to enforce UNSCR 1973 and prevent Gaddafi from attacking the Libyan people. Attack helicopters are one tool for that purpose, and the use of such helicopters is one of a range of capability options under consideration. However, I stress that no decision has yet been made about whether to use our attack helicopters in Libya. We will keep the House informed as decisions are made.
Mr Murphy
Thank you for allowing the urgent question, Mr Speaker.
The Opposition have always made it clear that we support the stated aims of the military operation in Libya: to enforce UN Security Council resolution 1973, to protect Libyan civilians, and to implement a no-fly zone. We have also made it clear not just that we support the Government and the UN mandate, but that it is crucial for Parliament to have an opportunity to scrutinise Government decisions and the campaign in Libya.
Yesterday Le Figaro reported that 12 French helicopters had been dispatched to Libya on 17 May. There was no comment from the Ministry of Defence other than
“we are constantly reviewing our options”,
but the French Defence Minister, Gérard Longuet, said:
“The British, who have assets similar to ours, will also commit…The sooner the better is what the British think.”
Is that an accurate statement by a French Minister of the British Government’s policy on Libya? The British people will be desperately concerned that French Ministers seem to know more about the deployment of British military equipment than the British Parliament.
Parliament has not written the Government a blank cheque on Libya, and Ministers should never keep the British public in the dark about major deployments. This is a serious moment, and it would be a serious escalation if such a commitment were to be made. Parliament should never be kept in the dark.
I want to ask the Minister a number of questions. First, why have discussions about an escalation of such magnitude with our French partners and colleagues reached such an advanced stage without Parliament being allowed even the courtesy of discussion or scrutiny? Secondly, will the Minister go into more detail about the situation on the ground which is leading Ministers at least to consider—and, in a private conversation with the French, to confirm—this military commitment?
Thirdly, if this were to happen, would the operational allowance be extended to those serving in and around Libya in the same way as in respect of Afghanistan? Fourthly, does the hon. Gentleman agree with the Defence Analysis estimation that the cost of the conflict could be £1 billion by September? Finally, will he say more about the UK’s military capability to maintain the current tempo, and have the Government decided to order further Brimstone?
Parliament thought long and hard about whether to commit military force over Libya on behalf of the United Kingdom. The House sought in good conscience to take a deep and significant decision about our nation, and now we are expected simply to wave through a possible major escalation in military commitment without a proper debate in Parliament. It is utterly unacceptable that the UK Parliament has to be informed about a possible deployment of UK forces by the French Defence Minister.
On this complicated issue, the Government need to provide greater clarity. On behalf of this Parliament and those who voted for this conflict, which we support—and, indeed, on behalf of those who voted against the conflict—Parliament is right to demand that decisions such as this one are announced in this Parliament, debated in this Parliament, scrutinised in this Parliament, and should never be kept from Parliament again.
Nick Harvey
The right hon. Gentleman quotes the French Minister, and my understanding is that the French have indeed taken a decision to deploy their attack helicopters in Libya. I state again for the avoidance of all doubt that no such decision has been taken by the United Kingdom. It is an option that we are considering, but no decision has been taken, and there is absolutely no sense in which it is true to say that we have kept Parliament in the dark about a decision that we have taken.
I do not accept that if we were to take the decision to use attack helicopters at some point in the future, that would be an “escalation” of what we are doing in Libya. The targets would remain the same; it would simply be a tactical shift in what assets we used to try to hit those targets. The right hon. Gentleman asks why we would consider doing this, and what would be the military logic of contemplating using attack helicopters. The principal advantage it would give us over the air assets we are currently deploying is the ability to strike moving targets with greater precision.
The right hon. Gentleman asked about the costs. I do not recognise the figure he gives. It is not possible to compute in real time a figure, but I say to him again that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made it clear that the cost of this operation will be met by the reserve.
The right hon. Gentleman asked about maintaining the momentum. We keep our stocks under regular review, including specifically of Brimstone. We are content that we can keep going for the foreseeable future, but we will have to make adjustments as time goes on and calculate whether it will be necessary to increase our stocks.
On the operational allowance, the arrangements will remain as they are, but we are looking into the possibility of extending special consideration for those who would not meet the normal criteria.
The Government have been doing their utmost to ensure that the House is kept informed about what is going on. There have been debates and questions, and we have given several briefings, and if the right hon. Gentleman feels at any stage that he needs more information, he needs only to ask and we will do everything we can to afford him that information. We are involved in a military operation, however. We have to consider from time to time the tactics we are using, and you will understand, Mr Speaker, why we would not do so in advance on the Floor of the House. Apart from anything else, telling the enemy exactly what we are up to would be a very unusual strategy. As soon as decisions are taken, however, we will ensure that Parliament is informed.
Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)
I thank my hon. Friend for his statement. If the Apache helicopter were to be deployed, that would be entirely appropriate, particularly given the Gaddafi forces’ change in tactics, and the requirement to have a highly effective machine that can lurk and deal with the hard-to-find targets. What steps would need to be taken to marinise the Apache if it were to be operating off-carrier?
Nick Harvey
I agree with my hon. Friend that we are right to consider this in pursuance, as I said, of UNSCR 1973. Gaddafi and his regime remain a real threat to the civilian population in Libya and if we were to take a decision to use an attack helicopter, it would be in pursuit of that resolution. Such helicopters give us a greater ability to pinpoint targets, we are able to operate them from HMS Ocean or other maritime assets, and there is no need for any specific adaptation in order to do that.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
Like many others, I am very concerned about the massive air raid that took place last night, which will inevitably cause civilian casualties, although I entirely accept that the Gaddafi regime will try to make as much propaganda of it as possible. Is the Minister aware that there is an increasing feeling that, despite denials, resolution 1973 is being used for regime change? I emphasise again that regime change is totally outside international law.
Nick Harvey
We are very familiar with the terms of UNSCR 1973, which remains absolutely our abiding objective. I recognise that there are risks inherent in whatever military options we take, but let me reassure the House that we are doing our utmost, and so are our NATO allies, to ensure that there is no loss of civilian life. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that that is in sharp distinction to the Gaddafi regime, which is retaining that loss as its objective and is continuing to cause it. We are there to prevent it from doing so.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
May I sympathise with the Minister’s reluctance to permit a running commentary on operations in Libya, for the reasons that he has outlined? Were Apache helicopters, which carry missiles, to be deployed, how would that be different in principle from the use of fast jets carrying missiles?
Nick Harvey
I entirely agree with my right hon. and learned Friend: the objective and the targets would remain exactly the same, but we would have at our disposal a weapon with a greater degree of precision, which is better able to hit targets, including moving ones, and with a lower risk of collateral damage. This would be a tactical switch from using one asset to using another, which is why I do not believe it would constitute an escalation, but I repeat that no such decision has, as yet, been taken. The French have taken a decision and announced it. We have not taken that decision, but I confirm that it is an option we are considering.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
This decision, if it is made, would make a qualitative difference to the strategy, because it would mean a greater risk to British service personnel. For that reason, the Government should seek not only a debate on the Floor of the House, but a renewed vote to sanction any such measure. May I also ask the Minister what efforts are being made, again, to get a negotiated settlement to this war?
Nick Harvey
I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. The use of attack helicopters in contested territory is certainly inherently dangerous—about that there can be no doubt—but they have been used elsewhere very effectively and those dangers have not had a deadly effect. I repeat that this is a consideration of using another tactic; this is not a step change in what we are doing. The suggestion that while we are in the course of operations we would come to the House of Commons for a full debate and a fresh resolution every time we took an operational tactical decision is not realistic, and I do not think it would be justified.
Mr James Arbuthnot (North East Hampshire) (Con)
As I ordered the attack helicopters, I am rather disappointed to hear that no decision has been taken on their use. I agree entirely with the Minister that firing a missile from a rotary-wing aircraft as opposed to a fixed-wing aircraft is not an escalation, but does he agree that this decision would also help to address another issue of increasing concern, which is the airframe hours left in the Tornados? That matter is worrying a number of people.
Nick Harvey
I congratulate my right hon. Friend on having placed that order, because the Apache helicopter has proved itself in Iraq and Afghanistan over the years since then. It is useful that it is at our disposal for consideration at this time. I agree that sharing the duties out across our air assets will better enable us to sustain them over a period of time. I repeat that no decision to do that has been taken.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
The trouble is that if the Government’s aim is not regime change, we are basically at stalemate. The worry for many of my constituents is how long that stalemate will go on.
Nick Harvey
I do not accept that we are at stalemate, as I believe recent events in Misrata have demonstrated. The situation is still dynamic and fluid and we have to respond to the situation on the ground by making tactical decisions. The consideration of whether we should use attack helicopters will be informed in no small part by the tactical call of those closest to it, who make the judgments about what we face.
Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con)
May I remind the House of my interest as a member of the military stabilisation support group? Will the Minister update the House on the post-conflict reconstruction planning and, crucially, does he believe that it will require a further UN resolution to implement it effectively?
Nick Harvey
We already have a stabilisation unit in Benghazi preparing the ground for the post-conflict situation. We would expect the UN to play the leading role in co-ordinating that and there might well be an appetite for EU involvement, too. We are laying the ground as best we can but we are taking these things a stage at a time. The overriding priority at the moment remains preventing Gaddafi and his regime from attacking civilians in Libya.
Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)
According to the latest statement from the International Committee of the Red Cross, there is a growing humanitarian crisis on the ground. What can we do to address that?
Nick Harvey
There are certainly immense humanitarian difficulties in various parts of Libya, the most obvious example being Misrata. We were among several nations in sustaining the pressure to get supplies and relief into Misrata. There has been some success with that operation, but one does not want to overclaim on that. It remains an overwhelming priority to ensure that we can relieve humanitarian suffering by all means possible.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
Whether or not we deploy attack helicopters, the fact that a key NATO ally has represents, in my view at least, a significant escalation in this conflict and reinforces the point that regime change has been the objective of our intervention. Given the air strikes and this latest news, at what point does the Minister believe that our actions on the ground will cross the line as regards UN resolution 1973?
Nick Harvey
My hon. Friend refers to operations on the ground and asks at what point they would cross UNSCR 1973. What was specifically prohibited was a landing and occupying force and I do not see that one can in any way compare the use of attack helicopters to take on moving targets with a landing and occupying force. We are talking about two completely different things. The French have, as I understand it, taken the decision to use attack helicopters, although I do not believe that they have as yet started in practice to do so. I do not accept, for the reasons I set out earlier, that that would constitute an escalation of the conflict in Libya. It would be a tactical shift in the way we were pursuing it.
Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)
The House is going into recess today and will not resume until 7 June. Given that the Minister has said on several occasions that no decision has been made, can he tell us, first, why the French Defence Minister thinks a decision has been made and, secondly, when this House will know when a decision is made, if it is?
Nick Harvey
I cannot comment on what the French Minister has said, but I absolutely assure the hon. Gentleman once again that we have not taken this decision and have not suggested to the French that we have taken it. I am aware that we are about to have a short recess, but it would be wholly unacceptable in my view artificially to accelerate a military decision in order to comply with the parliamentary timetable. If a decision is made it will be made according to military criteria and the operations will be conducted in the normal way. We will inform Members as soon as we can if any such decision is taken but I stress again that no such decision has been taken and I cannot anticipate that it will be taken on any particular timetable.
Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
May I assure my hon. Friend that he is entitled to plan military operations and discuss them with allies in private and that so long as he reports decisions to the House he will not have taken his country’s name in vain in any manner at all? May I draw his attention to the fact that US Carrier Strike Group Two will be visiting Portsmouth this weekend and then proceeding to the Mediterranean? Will President Obama be included in these discussions about military options in Libya, because we either have to break the stalemate or broker a peace?
Nick Harvey
I thank my hon. Friend for his initial remarks. He is absolutely right that, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) said, it would not be appropriate to keep up a running commentary throughout an operation on the tactical decisions we might take. The French have taken a decision and have seen fit to put that into the public domain and that is entirely a matter for the French. So far as the Americans are concerned, it is certainly the case that during President Obama’s visit we will be discussing with him operations in Libya and Afghanistan as well as other world issues. My hon. Friend is entirely right that the US carrier strike group will be passing through the Mediterranean—I understand that is the intention—but these are things that we will keep discussing with allies. Let me say again that absolutely no decision has been taken.
Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)
Has not this intervention been subject to mission creep ever since it began, as statements to the House have indicated? There has been a little bit of help here, the use of special forces there and further intervention. It is no surprise to me that the French, who initiated the intervention in the first place because of an election in France next year, are now telling the British Government what the next phase is. How many civilians, whom we were supposed to safeguard, have been killed by NATO forces? When will we reach £1 billion of expenditure on this intervention, which is paid for by the British taxpayer? Is it right what the media say that it will be at the end of this summer, or will it be even sooner?
Nick Harvey
We know for a fact that Gaddafi was on the verge of an absolute bloodbath in Benghazi and that if we had not intervened there would have been an absolute slaughter. In conducting this operation we have at all times done our utmost to minimise the number of civilian casualties, of whom there are far fewer than Gaddafi has killed and would have killed. I do not accept that there has been mission creep from UNSCR 1973 at all. It remains the case that we are prosecuting it to the best of our ability and it remains our overriding priority to reduce the risk to civilian life and the suffering of civilians. The best way in which that could be concluded would be for Gaddafi to comply with UN resolution 1973 and stop killing his own civilians.
Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)
I do not see this as an escalation but rather as a proper tactical response to a changing tactical situation on the ground that is in line with UN resolution 1973. We know from Afghanistan and Somalia that helicopters can be more vulnerable to attack than fixed-wing aircraft. What assessment has been made of UK search and rescue capability should one of our helicopters unfortunately be downed?
Nick Harvey
I thank my hon. Friend for his supportive remarks. It is inherently true that the use of attack helicopters in contested territory is dangerous, but we are deploying all our assets through NATO and if we were to decide to use attack helicopters it would be through NATO co-ordinated efforts, so the assets of other partner countries would be available to us to help defend them. We have experience of using Apache helicopters in contested territory and we have successful ways of minimising the threat to them, but it is an inherently dangerous business—there is no way of getting around that.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
Will the Minister update the House on how many countries have now sent military advisers to Libya to help the rebels? Can he confirm who is responsible for co-ordinating their work?
Nick Harvey
We have sent some of our own advisers and they are working with the French. We co-ordinate that between us and they are the pre-eminent military advisers. There are some from other countries in that region but they are undertaking specific tasks in co-ordination with the British and French forces, so the predominant effort is Anglo-French and we are co-ordinating it between us.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
I welcome the Minister’s statement. Will he clarify what the assessment is of the situation in southern Libya, bordering Chad—an area with a huge amount of oil deposits?
Nick Harvey
The hon. Gentleman is right that there are huge oil assets to the south. I can only repeat that our objective in Libya is the protection of civilians, who we know are predominantly in the north and along those coastal stretches. The regime still has effective control over some of the oil assets to the south, but clearly its efforts to transport and export them have been significantly curtailed by the efforts of the coalition to implement UNSCR 1973.
Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab)
My understanding is that the French have publicly briefed the press that the National Security Council has taken the decision to deploy the helicopters. When the Minister says that the decision has not been taken, does he mean that there is a recommendation from the National Security Council awaiting rubber-stamping from the Prime Minister in order to get sign-off from the President for an announcement later in the week?
Nick Harvey
I really cannot be expected to justify what may or may not have been said by French Ministers giving briefings to newspapers. I repeat to the hon. Gentleman that no decision has been taken. No decision has been taken by the National Security Council and no recommendation is awaiting the Prime Minister’s approval. It is an option that we are considering and at some point in the future we might decide to go down that route. If the French really have briefed in those terms they have clearly misunderstood the situation in the United Kingdom.
Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
My hon. Friend has been clear that no decision has yet been taken to deploy ground-attack helicopters. May I ask him to assure the House that if such a decision were taken, it would in no way adversely affect our operations in Afghanistan?
Nick Harvey
I can indeed confirm that. There are currently Apache helicopters in the Mediterranean as part of exercise Cougar and if any decision were taken to use Apache helicopters in Libya, they would most likely be the ones used. That would therefore not have any impact on operations in Helmand.
Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
Does the Minister accept that the more regime targets in Tripoli that are bombed and the more tactical weaponry that is employed on the side of the rebels, the more this appears, to the Arab world in particular, as a political rather than a humanitarian intervention?
Nick Harvey
The purpose of our being there is to carry out UNSCR 1973, the objective of which is to reduce the threat to civilian life. What the hon. Gentleman refers to as regime targets are in fact command and control targets—military targets. They are targets relating to the regime’s ability to persecute its own civilians, so those are the targets we have been aiming to hit. I do not accept a narrative from that that regime change is the objective of the exercise. The aim is to prevent the regime from slaughtering its civilians and that will continue to be the aim.
Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con)
If the decision is made, will the Apache helicopters be allowed to land on Libyan soil?
Nick Harvey
I say again that this is simply an option that is being considered, and the detail of how exactly these things would be organised has not yet been worked up. It is not the intention that the helicopters would land. The intention is that they would be deployed, if at all, from naval assets, most probably from HMS Ocean, but that is the sort of detail that is being worked through at present as the option is worked up and considered. It certainly should not be inferred that there is any intention to use helicopters in order to land ground troops and take off in a different direction.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
I endorse the Minister’s emphasis on saving civilian lives. Can he update us on whether the Libyan electricity and water infrastructure has been damaged by bombing in recent weeks?
Nick Harvey
We have no grounds to think so. There are undoubtedly problems with electricity and water supplies in different parts of Libya for different reasons, but we have no grounds to believe that the actions of NATO or any of our allies have had that effect, and of course it is most certainly not our intention or objective to do anything of that kind.
Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con)
What discussions has my hon. Friend had, or does he intend to have, with Arab League countries as part of the decision whether to deploy Apache helicopters?
Nick Harvey
If any decision were to be taken to go down that route, that would be discussed with Arab countries through the contact group. I stress to the House that the Arab League support for what we are doing in Libya remains strong, and we will consult our allies in the Arab League as we go along.
Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)
The Minister’s reason for withholding information from the House makes no sense at all. If French helicopters are attacking Gaddafi’s forces, there is no tactical advantage to knowing that there will be British helicopters attacking with them; that gives no militarily useful extra information to Gaddafi. When he made the original statement, the Prime Minister gave a commitment to keep the House informed in detail. There should be a votable resolution on the matter because there has undoubtedly been mission creep towards an objective of regime change since the start of this war.
Nick Harvey
I am not withholding information from the House. There is no information to withhold. No decision to deploy attack helicopters has been taken, and if any decision is taken we will take steps to inform the House. The idea that we should have a votable resolution each time we make a tactical decision to use a different air asset is ludicrous.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
In his first answer the Minister spoke of the need to increase the military pressure on the Gaddafi regime, but subsequently refuted any concerns about escalation or regime change. As well as reporting to the House, under resolution 1973 any country or group of countries taking an action under that resolution must report it to the Secretary-General of the UN, who will then refer it to the Security Council. Have the latest actions been reported by France or on NATO’s behalf, and does the Minister anticipate no concerns from any member of the Security Council that the resolution has been exceeded?
Nick Harvey
In my initial answer I was quoting the Foreign Secretary, who said, quite rightly, that we had to step up the pressure on the Gaddafi regime through military, economic and political-diplomatic channels. That is true. I do not, however, accept that there is any significant escalation or a broadening of our military objectives. It remains the case that our overriding objective is to prevent the threat to civilian life, and if there are different assets that different members of the international force working in Libya can bring to bear at different points in time, I do not think that such micro-operational decisions need bother the Secretary-General of the UN. However, if we were to shift focus significantly on what we were doing, that would be of a different order altogether, and the UN very well might be involved.
Mr Speaker
Order. I am grateful to the Minister of State and to colleagues.
Oral Answers to Questions
Nick Harvey Excerpts(13 years, 7 months ago)
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Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con)
8. What recent assessment he has made of the implications for his Department’s policies of the security situation in the middle east.
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey)
Recent events in the middle east have demonstrated that the central finding of the strategic defence and security review—the need for the UK to adopt an adaptable posture with flexible forces—was appropriate. Given the vital importance of the region to the UK’s long-term interests, we will continue to monitor the still evolving situation before drawing conclusions on if and how it could influence the Department’s policies.
Mel Stride
Does my hon. Friend agree that our allies in the Gulf play a vital role in ensuring security and stability in the region and that it is imperative that our Government continue to engage constructively and positively with them, particularly in these uncertain times?
Nick Harvey
I agree with my hon. Friend that the Gulf states are key partners in the battle against international terrorism and more widely. That said, we are concerned at events in some of the Gulf states. We urge all Governments to meet their human rights obligations, to uphold political freedoms and to recognise that those things do not run contrary to security but are in fact integral to longer-term stability. We believe that dialogue is the way to fulfil the aspirations of all, and we urge all sides, including opposition groupings, to engage.
Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)
The Government, rightly in my view, are calling for Colonel Gaddafi to be referred to the International Criminal Court. Does the Minister agree, therefore, that the President of Syria, Bashar al-Assad, should be similarly referred because he is killing and torturing just as many people in Syria as Gaddafi is in Libya?
Nick Harvey
I understand that Gaddafi has already been referred to the court and that that decision was taken internationally at the ICC. I entirely see the comparison that the right hon. Gentleman is drawing and it would seem to me that the international forces that reached the conclusions they did about Gaddafi are highly likely to arrive at a similar conclusion.
Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con)
9. What assessment he has made of the adequacy of equipment provided to the armed forces to counter improvised explosive devices in Afghanistan; and if he will make a statement.
Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con)
12. When he plans to publish the recommendations of his Department’s basing review.
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey)
As I have said before, the Ministry of Defence will make an announcement as soon as we are in a position to do so, and that will be before the summer recess. But as I have also said, this is a complex piece of work and we will take the time necessary to make sure we reach the right conclusions.
Elizabeth Truss
On Friday I attended the disbandment parade of 13 Squadron at RAF Marham, which was a moment of both pride and sadness. Given the additional commitments taken on by the RAF in Libya and the statement by the Chief of the Air Staff that our air force is heavily stretched, will that have an impact on the basing review?
Nick Harvey
That will not have an impact on the basing review, but I join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to everybody involved with 13 Squadron, which was involved in the early stages of the operation in Libya and has a proud history going back 96 years, including distinguished service in the second world war and later in the no-fly zone in Iraq and Operation Telic. The name will live on next year when a new squadron of reaper, the remotely piloted aircraft, will take on the number 13, and I am pleased to say that most of the personnel involved have been found other roles elsewhere in the Tornado force.
Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)
At the time of the strategic defence and security review, the Secretary of State told me that the basing review affecting RAF Lossiemouth would be concluded before the end of December 2010. That was put back to the end of February 2011, and we are still waiting. The delays are causing uncertainty and economic damage in Moray and, I am sure, likewise in Fife, Norfolk and elsewhere. Does the Minister agree that the least that service communities should expect is a definitive date and no more delays?
Nick Harvey
As I said a moment ago, this is a complex piece of work. The Army coming home from Germany happens only once, and the future lay-down of the Army and the basing of the British Army for the future is something that we have to get right. It is necessary to take the time to get those decisions right. I understand the impact that waiting for a decision has on local communities, but it is more important that we get this right than that we do it fast. As I said a moment ago, we will make an announcement by the summer recess.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
My hon. Friend will be pleased to hear that the professionalism and commitment of the men and women who serve at RAF Leuchars, which he saw for himself earlier this year, continue, notwithstanding uncertainty about the future of the base. What view does he take of the kind of speculation that we saw last week, apparently originating from within the House, which appears to suggest that decisions affecting RAF Leuchars have already been taken?
Nick Harvey
I am pleased to hear that the professionalism of those serving at Leuchars, which I saw for myself recently, remains unaffected. There has been some ill-informed and unhelpful speculation in the media. In particular, last week there was a routine meeting to discuss all aspects of defence reform. It was absolutely not the case that there was ever any prospect of decisions being taken at that meeting, nor was there any proposal to that effect on the table. This is important work, and there is more work ongoing. I categorically assure my right hon. and learned Friend that no such decision has been taken, and we will come to the House as soon as we are in a position to do so.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
Last week the Chief of the General Staff told the Defence Committee that substantial investment in accommodation and training facilities will be needed if the Government are to be able to meet their challenging target of withdrawing half the troops currently based in Germany by 2015, let alone withdrawing the rest by 2020. What assessment has the Minister made of the cost of this policy and will it come out of the current departmental financial settlement?
Nick Harvey
The Chief of the General Staff was absolutely right to say that the accommodation that the British Army will need must be of the highest standard. What that will cost will depend entirely on the decisions that are taken on where the Army will go and the state of readiness of any facilities into which we might propose to move them. The figures will emerge when we know where we are sending them and what will have to be built in readiness to receive them.
Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)
13. What steps the Government plan to take to fulfil the Prime Minister’s pledge to enshrine the military covenant in law.
Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con)
14. What plans his Department has to reinforce troops in Afghanistan over the summer campaigning season.
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey)
Following the increase in troop numbers as a result of the international security assistance force surge in the second half of 2010 and the continuing increase in both the size and capability of the Afghan national security forces, I am confident that there are sufficient forces in Afghanistan to meet the insurgent threat over the coming months. For that reason, there are no plans to increase the UK’s endorsed force levels.
Patrick Mercer
I am grateful to the Minister for his reply, but there are a considerable number of troops in Afghanistan, a considerable number of forces operating in Libya, and I have no doubt that further military operations will be required in other parts of north Africa. I understand that defence cuts need to be made, but can he assure me that those currently being discussed will not include any further cuts to combat forces?
Nick Harvey
I am not aware of the discussions to which my hon. refers, but I can absolutely assure him that there will be no reductions in the number of front-line fighting troops for the very reasons he gives.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
The justification for dismantling improvised explosive devices, rather than blowing them up, is that those who made them can be identified and captured. As this has resulted in the deaths of many of our brave soldiers, should we not alter the policy, particularly now that the prisoners are escaping in such huge numbers?
Nick Harvey
It is certainly not the case that we always go for the option of dismantling IEDs, as some of them are destroyed, but as part of the ongoing effort to counter the IED threat it is absolutely vital that we have an understanding of how they are made and who is making them. It is absolutely essential intelligence to us—to garner that information on occasions—and we have no intention of changing that approach.
Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con)
15. What progress has been made on his Department’s consultation on equipment, support and technology for UK defence and security.
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey)
The hon. Gentleman is quite right that in order to rebalance flying training in the light of the new requirements, there will be no further intake of elementary flying training students at RAF Church Fenton. That is because the requirement is reduced from 155 to 105 pilots a year, and the last course, which is currently under way, completes in August. I understand that that will create considerable concerns for local people in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. No decisions have yet been taken about the future of RAF Church Fenton, although the Yorkshire university air squadron, which incorporates No. 9 Air Experience Flight, will continue to use the station, and it will continue to act as a relief landing ground for RAF Linton-on-Ouse.
Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)
T8. Post the very welcome announcement on the future base porting of the Type 23 frigates, will the Minister—I am sure he will forgive me for not letting the paint dry on this one—tell us at what stage are the strategic discussions about the future of the Type 26?
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
T9. So often the House focuses on our armed forces in theatre and in conflict, but is it not also important that we celebrate our armed forces at home? I hope that the House will forgive me if I celebrate in particular the work of the armed forces recently at the royal wedding, where they were so brilliantly turned out.
Nick Harvey
I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. After the service that so many have given on the front line, including in Afghanistan—some of those involved that day were involved on the front line in Afghanistan—it was very good, with the eyes of the world looking at us, that the contribution of the armed forces was able to be celebrated in that way and that they gave such a good account of themselves with everybody watching.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
T10. Has the Department reflected on the concerns of the Royal British Legion and the other place over the post of chief coroner? If so, what representations has it made to other Departments about the necessity of keeping the post?
Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con)
In a television debate on the BBC on 6 April, the Minister for the Armed Forces asserted that this country did not have the capability to fly Harriers off aircraft carriers even before the defence review, and that we had not flown them off aircraft carriers since 2003. The truth is that they flew off Ark Royal as late as November 2010 in difficult sea conditions. I am sure that he did not intend to mislead the British public. Will he put the record straight now?
Nick Harvey
I am happy to correct what I said in that TV interview. I had thought that from the context it was clear that I was talking about flying in combat operations. The 2003 date was the last time that we had flown Harriers off carriers in combat operations. Of course, the right hon. Gentleman is right to say that Harriers continued literally to fly off carriers after that. Indeed, the nation watched the valedictory flights off Ark Royal back in December, as he said. I apologise for any confusion that my remarks may have caused.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
Will the Minister give an assessment of the financial cost of the conflict in Libya so far? Does he recognise reports which state that if the conflict lasts six months, the cost could reach £1 billion?
Call-out Order to Contribute to the UN
Nick Harvey Excerpts(13 years, 7 months ago)
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The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey)
With the expiry of the call-out order made on 1 May 2010, a new order has been made under section 56(1) of the Reserve Forces Act 1996 to enable reservists to continue to be called out into permanent service as part of the United Kingdom’s contribution to the United Nations forces in Cyprus (UNFICYP).
The new order is effective until 30 April 2012. Some 224 reservists are currently called out in support of UNFICYP, of whom 27 are in Cyprus.
Oral Answers to Questions
Nick Harvey Excerpts(13 years, 9 months ago)
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Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
4. What assessment he has made of the implications for his Department’s policies of proposals for further regulation of the international trade in arms; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey)
We strongly support proposals for an arms trade treaty. It should reduce the proliferation of conventional weapons and technology in unstable regions. By agreeing and implementing criteria that set high standards for the export of conventional weapons and technology, the Government maintain a rigorous and transparent arms export control system, whereby all export licence applications are assessed case by case against the consolidated EU and national arms export licensing criteria. The arms trade treaty will better regulate the international trade in conventional weapons and contribute towards preventing conflict, which is a key interest for the Department.
Dr Huppert
Our Government should be congratulated on their strong role in the international arms trade treaty talks in New York last week, which will lead to a great improvement around the world. However, does the Minister accept that sales of British defence and security equipment, licensed under this Government and the previous Government, to countries such as Libya and Bahrain show that we need to take a far more careful look at our exports, as well as advising the rest of the world?
Nick Harvey
I agree with my hon. Friend that the progress towards an arms trade treaty is encouraging. The recent preparatory committee meeting certainly went well. As I have said, the UK maintains rigorous controls. Clearly, the changing political situation means that we will have to monitor sales to various countries far more closely. When considering future export licensing applications, we will follow the terms of the newly agreed UN arms embargo in the case of Libya. In terms of other countries, such sales have been going on for some time, as my hon. Friend said, but I am pleased to say that there have been no recent sales to Bahrain, for example.
Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)
We should all welcome the advances towards an international treaty. However, I urge the Minister to point out to the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) the huge importance of the British aerospace industry to the economy not only of the country, but of the regions where it employs many thousands of skilled workers. In that context, the criteria for deciding to whom we sell should be current criteria. For example, we should consider the huge advances made in Indonesia under President Yudhoyono, not only in its economy, but in human rights and democracy in that country. Will there be an up-to-date assessment of which countries are appropriate?
Nick Harvey
We keep under constant review the progress made in different parts of the world, and apply that against the criteria. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that the Government recognise the significance of defence exports and the rigorous controls that are in place. Exports bring great value to the economy, industry and defence. They contribute not only to our defence diplomacy, but to the interoperability of our systems with those of our allies around the world.
Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)
5. How much of the sum allocated by his Department to the Trident replacement concept phase has been transferred from its budget for the assessment phase.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)
12. What his policy is on cyber-security in the defence estate; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey)
As we set out in the strategic defence and security review, we attach a high priority to the cyber-defence of our systems. Since I last updated the House in December, we have made considerable progress in this area. Our new global operations and security control centre is now up and running, and we have commissioned a new monitoring system to detect cyber-attacks against our defence systems. We have also appointed a very senior military officer to lead a defence cyber-security programme to transform our approach over the next four years and to meet our SDSR commitments. The House will understand if I do not comment further on the detail of the measures we take to protect our systems, but we are not complacent—we must outmatch a rapidly changing threat.
Robert Halfon
Is the Minister aware of the concerns expressed by Dr Kim Howells, former Chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee, regarding the close links between BT and the Chinese telecoms firm, Huawei, which has close links to the red army? Does the Minister agree that that could make us more vulnerable to cyber-attack from China, and what steps can he take to reduce that risk?
Nick Harvey
The recent Green Paper on equipment, support and technology identified cyberspace as both one of the benefits and one of the risks of the modern world. We are developing a joint approach with industry because of our mutual reliance on networks, which gives us the opportunity to discuss with BT and others both those benefits and the risks to which the hon. Gentleman alludes.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
Given that the important threat from cyberspace affects both the private and public sectors, what steps is my hon. Friend taking to encourage innovative solutions from the private sector to help the public sector?
Nick Harvey
We have started a relationship with the private sector, and there has been an initial meeting with private sector leaders at Downing street. It is essential that we have the maximum co-operation between the private and public sectors, because many of the networks on which public services depend are managed under contract by the private sector. It is also essential that there is good international engagement with our allies, and there will be new memorandums of understanding with some of them shortly.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
In the light of allegations that I gather will be made tonight on the “Panorama” programme that the News of the World was hacking into mobile phones and computers used by the Army in Northern Ireland, will the Minister ensure that the security of mobile telephones used by the Army will be protected from newspapers as well as from other agents?
Nick Harvey
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point, and we will do everything we can to ensure the maximum security of all our communication methods.
Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)
With the reporting of an ever increasing number of cyber-attacks and the increasing costs of such attacks, will the Minister confirm that the £650 million announced in the SDSR for cyber-security has been ring-fenced for new capabilities? Will he also confirm the time scale for full delivery of those capabilities?
Nick Harvey
The money to which the hon. Gentleman alludes covers the whole SDSR period. It is new money intended to help prime the efforts of both the public and private sectors, as I said a moment ago, to ensure that the nation as a whole has in place the maximum possible defences over the next few years. It is a fast-changing scene, and it is essential that we keep up with the ever changing threat.
Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)
10. What progress his Department has made on the joint search and rescue harmonisation project; and if he will make a statement.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
20. What recent representations he has received on the implications for airfields on the defence estate of the outcome of the strategic defence and security review; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey)
I have received a considerable number of representations from hon. Members, Ministers and Members of the devolved Administrations, as well as from members of the public. I have regular discussions with Government colleagues and I will make an announcement as soon as I am in a position to do so.
Miss McIntosh
Will the Minister accept another representation from me about the excellence of public service shown by RAF Linton at times of public tragedy, in respect of floods on a number of occasions and the Selby rail crash in particular? Will he give an assurance that the future of RAF Linton will be secure, in training RAF pilots in the future?
Nick Harvey
The strategic defence and security review said that RAF Kinloss and two other RAF bases would close. We are in the middle of a comprehensive basing study, covering the needs not only of the RAF but of the Army in the future. It is a complex piece of work. As soon as we are able to balance all those competing requirements, we will make a full statement to the House.
Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
T2. The United Nations Secretary-General’s special representative on children and armed conflict recently reported on the Afghan national police’s recruitment of children to fight and on the sexual exploitation of young boys by Afghan police and military commanders. Given this disturbing evidence, will the Secretary of State explain what guidance is given to British military and police trainers when they encounter children in the Afghan national security forces?
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey)
Afghan civilians must be 18 or above to join either the Afghan national police or the army. That is checked as rigorously as possible through the much-improving recruitment process. If there is any allegation of wrongdoing brought to the attention of the British forces, it will be taken extremely seriously and reported to the Afghan commanders. We would unreservedly condemn any act of abuse or brutality. The Afghan Ministry of the Interior addresses children’s rights issues and certainly recognises 18 as the age of majority. If there are any specific allegations, he should—
Armed Forces (Pensions and Benefits)
Nick Harvey Excerpts(13 years, 9 months ago)
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The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey)
I commend the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram) on initiating this debate on the effect on the armed forces of Government changes to pensions and benefits, and I acknowledge that the subject is profoundly important to many people.
Our armed forces are deployed to most demanding areas of conflict and we have a duty, not only as a Government but as a nation, to support and look after them, to care for the injured and the bereaved. That is common ground for all hon. Members. As the House knows, the priority for the Government is to bring the national finances under control by reducing the deficit, which inevitably means reducing public expenditure. That means that we have to take difficult and sometimes very unpalatable decisions in all areas of spending, including defence. Because of the priority we place on security, the defence budget is making a more modest contribution to deficit reduction relative to almost all other Departments.
However, in the comprehensive spending review and the strategic defence and security review, we have still had to take difficult decisions that have repercussions for some members of the armed forces and their families. I repeat that many of those decisions have been unpalatable. Nobody in the coalition came into politics to make cuts to the armed forces or to eliminate capabilities in our military power, but that is what we have had to do.
Gemma Doyle
Will the Minister confirm that the decisions he refers to are financial, not strategic?
Nick Harvey
I am coming to that. We have to acknowledge three things. First, the scale of the deficit is so enormous that £1 in every £4 of public expenditure is being borrowed, and the interest alone on the debt this year is greater than the entire defence budget, including the proportion being paid by the Treasury for operations in Afghanistan. That is how immense the overall deficit black hole is. That is compounded in the area of defence by the situation we inherited, where the defence budget was lagging behind the defence forward programme over the 10-year planning period by £38 billion. That is the gap between the programme that we inherited and the existing budget, set at a flat real basis, for the 10-year planning period. That is over and on top of the general deficit picture that we inherited. There is the general picture and the specific defence picture.
The third element, which I do not think was acknowledged adequately by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton, is that before there ever was an economic downturn, before the banking crisis hit, before the deficit became part of the political currency, there was already a problem with public service pensions, which the previous Government had acknowledged and was beginning to address, and which was going to require pretty drastic action sooner or later, irrespective of the nation’s finances plunging as they did. Before any of that started, there was already a serious problem with the affordability of public service pensions. We have to acknowledge all three factors as the backcloth to the decisions that have subsequently been taken.
Gemma Doyle
Will the Minister give an example of a time in the previous Parliament when either his or the Conservative party called for less defence spending?
Nick Harvey
Certainly not. We would have liked to have seen more defence spending. We would still like to see that now. The fact is that defence figures, for obvious security reasons, are not exposed to the same degree of parliamentary scrutiny as those of other Departments, and with the long lead time of many defence items, commitments stretch further into the future than they do in many other Departments. Although we were aware from Bernard Gray’s report on procurement that there were some pretty serious financial difficulties inside the Ministry of Defence, it was not until we got in and saw the full scale of it that we realised how drastic the defence budget’s problems were.
Steve Rotheram
I have listened carefully to the Minister, and I understand the argument that we had in the main Chamber about deficit reduction. It is not possible to throw the old line that we are deficit deniers—I am stating publicly that I understand the rationale—because if that were the case, a proposal that was time-bound until the deficit was pared down would have got some support across the Chamber. However, that is not what is being proposed. As I mentioned, it is necessary to take cognisance of the fact that, because our forces personnel and their widows draw pensions at a much earlier age, the proposed changes are compounding the problem. It is not comparing apples with apples; it is not even comparing Cox’s with Cox’s. A completely different set of comparators must be used, because armed forces pensions are drawn at such an early age.
Nick Harvey
The hon. Gentleman is making two different points, and I shall address each in turn. The question of the deficit must be boiled down into the structural deficit and the cyclical deficit. If all the measures that we are taking during this Parliament to eliminate the structural deficit are reversed at some point in the future, the country will simply return to square one. This Government are attempting to address the cyclical deficit through economic growth over a period, but we must eliminate the structural deficit. The structural deficit is not a temporary phenomenon. It existed before the banking crisis. It is perfectly true that the banking crisis blew the lid off it and put the entire global economy into turmoil, but the fact is that the UK was in a serious deficit situation before the banking crisis hit. That is why measures taken now to address the deficit cannot be viewed as temporary. If we start reversing prior decisions when the cycle improves and the cyclical deficit is also eliminated, we will simply return to square one.
The hon. Gentleman’s second point is a fair one. On average, people leave the military and begin drawing pensions from the age of about 40. I am sceptical about some of the figures that he and the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle) quoted, and I need to examine them in depth to see how on earth they were arrived at, but the general point that the pension is drawn from an earlier age is valid. However, in the vast majority of cases, people who draw a military pension from the age of about 40 do not then live on it exclusively for the rest of their days. My hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) acknowledged that he receives a service pension, but that has not prevented him from going on to do other things. Of course, some will not have further opportunities, but for the vast majority of people who leave the services at about 40, the service pension augments what they can earn in other walks of life for a long period. It is not really comparable with an old age pension in the sense that I think the hon. Gentleman meant.
Steve Rotheram
It is strange that the Minister mentions the difference between the structural and cyclical deficits. If the change is being made to address the structural deficit, that existed a long time before the banking crisis, as he rightly said, but I do not remember any dissident voices from the Tory and Liberal Democrat Benches at the time saying that we should reduce armed forces pensions. Why the change? If it was known well before the banking crisis, why was it not in either party’s manifesto?
Nick Harvey
The hon. Gentleman makes the point that we are having to take measures now to eliminate the deficit that we would not have taken or needed to take if the deficit had not grown over seven or eight years in the first place. Nobody in Government is saying that the precise measures that we are taking now are those that got the country into deficit, but the fact is that between 2001 and the banking crisis, we ran a budget deficit, some of it during a boom period in which traditional Keynesian economics should have dictated that we run a budget surplus.
The Government are now being forced to take drastic measures to address the structural deficit, not on the logic that these are the specific issues that built up the structural deficit, but because we must deal in the art of the possible. None of us came into politics to cut armed forces numbers or delete military capability, but we are driven to do so now by the scale of the budget deficit. It is simply not fair to say that nobody said anything. Throughout the period, my right hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable) said that both personal debt and debt in the state’s coffers were mounting to the point of unsustainability and would sooner or later go pop. I do not claim to have been a soothsayer myself, but to say that nobody said it is simply inaccurate and untrue.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I apologise for not being here earlier, Mr Streeter. I was at the Health and Social Care Bill Committee. I noticed in the paper that the Army Families Federation, which represents soldiers and their families,
“said that it had received 2,000 complaints in the past five days about the impact of cuts from people who feel that pensions and pay changes are a sign that the offer they laid down their lives for has been reneged on”.
I understand the Government’s position clearly in relation to the Budget, but in the middle of it all are the families and those serving on the front whose benefits and pensions are being reduced. That is the clear issue for many of us in this Chamber.
[Sandra Osborne in the Chair]
Nick Harvey
It is a serious issue—I do not deny that for one minute—but I think that what the hon. Gentleman refers to was an online survey run by the Army Families Federation that had 2,000 participants in its first five days. Of course there is a lot of concern and anxiety about the measures; I do not deny that for a minute. It is understandable. Some of the changes that we have had to make to the allowances package, which is what I think the survey was specifically about, are unpopular and will require lifestyle adjustments, but they are a necessary part of the Department’s contribution to the overall Government effort to reduce the deficit and bring the defence budget into some sort of balance.
The strategic defence and security review set out a requirement to reduce expenditure on service and civil service allowances, amounting to £300 million a year. Allowances are designed to support service personnel in particular circumstances, not to supplement income. It is entirely right that the package of allowances is reviewed from time to time to ensure that it fits the needs and circumstances of today’s armed forces fairly and affordably. There is no getting away from the fact that the measures will have an impact on individuals; I acknowledge that. However, to minimise the effects, we have concentrated on ensuring where we can that no group is disproportionately affected by changes. We have also sought to mitigate the effects by phasing in some of the changes over two years.
Operational allowances have not been affected by any of those changes. The House will be aware that we have doubled the operational allowance, backdated to 6 May last year. We have also changed the policy governing rest and recuperation for service personnel deployed on operations. Personnel deploying for six months will remain eligible for 14 days’ R and R, and personnel who lose out on that, whether as a result of operations or of disruptions to the air bridge, will be guaranteed additional post-operational leave in lieu as compensation. An appropriate set of allowances is a vital part of our support to personnel, and it will remain so. We believe that the changes announced in January by my right hon. Friend the Minister with responsibility for defence personnel, welfare and Veterans, struck the right balance between the need for savings and the need to get the package right.
The emergency Budget in June announced that from this April, the indexation of benefits, tax credits and the state second pension will be based on CPI rather than RPI. The change looks forward to the future. Future increases in the value of deferred pensions—all pensions in payment—will be based on CPI. Public service pensions will continue to be index-linked, which will continue to protect individual pensions against increases in the cost of living. The change is not a reduction of accrued rights, but we accept that, in the long term, CPI tends to increase at a lower rate than RPI. That is not always true—a year ago, RPI was negative and CPI positive—but I think that everybody accepts that, over the long term, CPI increases more slowly.
We have to link pensions to the appropriate target measure. CPI is the target measure used by the Bank of England, the headline measure of inflation in the UK, and the international standard measure. It uses a methodology that takes better account of consumer behaviour in response to price increases. The Government believe that it is the right index to use for uprating additional state pensions, public and private pensions and social security benefits, and that it is a more appropriate measure.
It is in the nature of public sector pension schemes that individual schemes cannot be seen in isolation. Much as I would wish, as the Armed Forces Minister, to see the armed forces pension schemes as utterly individual, the fact of the matter is that other workers in other areas of public service could not and should not be expected to see that. We cannot change one scheme without it at the very least having implications for others, and we cannot treat armed forces pension schemes inconsistently. The armed forces are part of the society they serve. Service pensioners do not live in a different world where prices move in different ways and the economy operates in a different fashion.
Steve Rotheram
Can the Minister inform me of what the envisaged savings will be—specifically for armed forces benefits and pensions—over the next few years as a result of the change from RPI to CPI?
Nick Harvey
No, we cannot forecast that at this stage. The Treasury has taken the decision across the public service, and it remains to be seen exactly what that will realise over time. It has based its policy on actuarial assessments that conclude that, over a longer period, there will be a significant saving to the public purse.
The hon. Gentleman will be aware that Lord Hutton is in the final stages of a structural review of public service pension provision and will publish his findings this week. In his interim report, Lord Hutton noted that the most effective way to make short-term savings was to increase member contributions, but he did not recommend that in the case of the armed forces.
We recognise that there can be anomalies and do what we can to iron them out. It was unfair that, under the 1975 armed forces pension scheme, a service person who held acting rank and exercised the responsibilities of that rank, but who died as a result of service before a certain period had elapsed, did not have that higher rank reflected in his pension. We have, therefore, changed the rules. Every soldier, sailor or airman can be assured that, if they die for reasons related to service while holding acting rank, their dependants will receive payments that reflect that rank.
Steve Rotheram
I have reflected upon the Minister’s answer, and it seems that the Government do not know what the total savings of this policy will be. Surely there is a ballpark figure somewhere that can be used to say that the policy will address some of the structural deficit that he identified earlier.
Nick Harvey
The hon. Gentleman is right—there are such figures, but they are held by the Treasury and have been determined by the Treasury actuaries. They have not been worked out by each Department for itself. The Treasury’s policy is to address the entire situation of public service pensions, which—I will say it again—were a serious problem in terms of their affordability long before the financial crisis or the downturn occurred. The hon. Gentleman will remember that, during the previous Parliament, the previous Government ran themselves into hot water with some of the public service unions due to the reforms they began to make to public service pensions.
Moving indexation from RPI to CPI is one of the ways that this current Government have identified of reducing the scale of the measures that Lord Hutton will have to recommend in terms of varying either contributions or benefits for public service pensions. I have no idea what Lord Hutton will recommend later this week, but I am certain that, on top of that, some reforms will be proposed that will be unpopular and unpleasant. However, they will be less severe than they would have had to be, because of the Treasury’s switch from RPI to CPI. To answer the hon. Gentleman’s question, I am sure that there are such figures, but they are not held at an individual departmental level. He might want to address his question to the Chancellor.
Let me be clear about the challenges we face and why we are considering the issues under discussion. The fact of the matter is that we inherited a record national debt and a huge black hole in the defence budget. We cannot run away from those harsh realities. Tough decisions have to be made, and we are facing up to that challenge. We accept that some of the changes will be difficult and that support for the armed forces remains very high throughout the country. We ask them to do things to keep us safe, and deny them the right to choose what assignments we set them. We will do all we can to support them, properly equip them, compensate them when they are injured and honour them when they die. We owe them nothing less.