Draft Public Contracts (Amendment) Regulations 2022

Alex Burghart Excerpts

Monday 12th December 2022 General Committees

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Alex Burghart)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Public Contracts (Amendment) Regulations 2022.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard.

This statutory instrument has two functions. First, it amends domestic public procurement regulations to ensure that changes in calculation of VAT in the valuation of contracts do not place undue burdens on contracting authorities. Secondly, it ensures that NHS trusts and NHS foundation trusts are treated consistently for the purpose of applying certain obligations that promote transparency. This SI will only implement changes to the lower-value thresholds in the Public Contract Regulations 2015 and, therefore, only impact on the regulation of lower-value contracts. The amendments are necessary in order to address the impact of the new requirement to include VAT in the assessment of contract value. The change to how VAT is considered in estimating the value of a contract was a result of the UK joining the agreement on Government procurement, or GPA, as an independent member following EU exit.

Although the other thresholds increased as a result of applying GPA methodology to account for currency fluctuations in the last two years, the lower thresholds were not. In effect, that resulted in a reduction to those thresholds. This had the effect of bringing more contracts into scope for publication under the below threshold regime, causing additional burden on contracting authorities. This instrument will rectify this discrepancy by raising the lower threshold for central Government authorities from £10,000 to £12,000. For sub-central authorities, it will be raised from £25,000 to £30,000. This will ensure that the thresholds effectively remain the same once contract values are calculated, inclusive of VAT, thus avoiding bringing additional low-value contracts within the scope of the below threshold regime.

Turning to the second function, this instrument also provides that NHS foundation trusts are to be treated consistently with NHS trusts and be regarded as sub-central authorities. It seemed inappropriate to the Government that NHS foundation trusts should be held to central Government thresholds for publication when NHS trusts are not. These regulations will rectify this by applying the same threshold to NHS foundation trusts as the one currently observed by NHS trusts.

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[Alex Burghart]

I thank the hon. Lady for her brief remarks. The difference in the increase is obviously because both have increased in line with VAT, which is 20%. With that, I hope the Committee will join me in supporting this SI.

Question put and agreed to.

Cabinet Office

Alex Burghart Excerpts

Monday 12th December 2022 Ministerial Corrections

The following are extracts from the answer given to the urgent question on the appointment of an independent adviser on ministerial interests on 30 November 2022.

[Alex Burghart]

The right hon. Lady refers to rumours in the press, but let us look at the facts. The Prime Minister has been in office for 31 days.

[Official Report, 30 November 2022, Vol. 723, c. 904.]

Letter of correction from the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Alex Burghart):

An error has been identified in my response to the right hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner).

The correct response should have been:

[Alex Burghart]

The right hon. Lady refers to rumours in the press, but let us look at the facts. The Prime Minister has been in office for 36 days.

[Alex Burghart]

As I have said, there is a process ongoing to appoint an independent adviser as fast as possible. The Prime Minister has been in post for 31 days, and there is standing advice on the use of WhatsApp and private messaging.

[Official Report, 30 November 2022, Vol. 723, c. 905.]

Letter of correction from the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Alex Burghart):

An error has been identified in my response to the right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones).

The correct response should have been:

[Alex Burghart]

As I have said, there is a process ongoing to appoint an independent adviser as fast as possible. The Prime Minister has been in post for 36 days, and there is standing advice on the use of WhatsApp and private messaging.

[Alex Burghart]

The hon. Lady will have heard me point out that the Prime Minister, who has said he will appoint an independent adviser, has only been in post for 31 days and that a process is going on at speed. In answer to her other question, it is very much the view of this Government that it is the Prime Minister who appoints the independent adviser to give advice to the Prime Minister, who answers ultimately to Parliament.

[Official Report, 30 November 2022, Vol. 723, c. 905.]

Letter of correction from the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Alex Burghart):

An error has been identified in my response to the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine).

The correct response should have been:

[Alex Burghart]

The hon. Lady will have heard me point out that the Prime Minister, who has said he will appoint an independent adviser, has only been in post for 36 days and that a process is going on at speed. In answer to her other question, it is very much the view of this Government that it is the Prime Minister who appoints the independent adviser to give advice to the Prime Minister, who answers ultimately to Parliament.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alex Burghart Excerpts

Thursday 8th December 2022 Commons Chamber

[Sir John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con)]

5. What recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness of Government information campaigns in local media.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Alex Burghart)]

The Government monitor the effectiveness of our communication campaigns. We recognise the enormous trust that the public have in local media and the important role that local media therefore play in spreading our messages. As just one example, a recent press partnership on access to NHS services used local media to inform the public about where to seek medical advice. Some 67% of readers said that they trusted the articles, highlighting local print’s importance to communities.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right about the power of local media in getting vital health messages across, but will he look at ensuring that, as well as local print media, local online-only publishers such as Nub News are included in future campaigns?

[Alex Burghart]

I completely agree with my right hon. Friend, who knows a great deal about the subject. “All in, all together” harnessed the power of local media and was particularly effective in reaching specific audiences to spread vital information. As he will appreciate, sometimes we want a more targeted approach to get better cost-effectiveness. I should also say that we use OmniGOV, and any local outlet—online or otherwise—that wishes to be on the list can apply by contacting OmniGOV directly.

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

6. Whether he is taking steps to increase the number of senior civil servants recruited from the private sector.

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[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

10. What steps his Department is taking to reduce the running costs of the Government estate.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Alex Burghart)]

Since 2010 the size of the central general purpose estate has been reduced by 30%, which has cut annual running costs by £1.6 billion. The “Government Property Strategy 2022-2030”, published in August, commits us to making further estate operating cost savings of £500 million by 2025 by relocating London roles, co-locating in multi-agency hubs, and selling surplus property.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

The German Government have limited temperatures in public buildings to 19°C. Double that and add 30, and it is a balmy 68° in English money. We could put on an extra layer and do a lot better, couldn’t we?

[Alex Burghart]

I feel that my right hon. Friend could survive in sub-19°C temperatures without an extra layer, but, as he will know, the Health and Safety Executive issues advice on temperatures in workplaces. Regulations suggest that the minimum temperature for indoor working should be at least 16°C, or 13° where rigorous physical effort is required. We have the flexibility to take that action, should we wish to do so.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Could use be made of empty Government properties? Given that bitterly cold weather is hitting the UK with a vengeance this week, have the Minister and the Cabinet Office considered making properties in city centres available to provide warm and dry places for those who are struggling with homelessness?

[Alex Burghart]

As ever, the hon. Gentleman has raised an important issue, and if he has any specific buildings in mind, I shall be happy to meet him to discuss it.

[Mrs Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)]

11. What recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the GREAT Britain and Northern Ireland Campaign in encouraging investment in the UK.

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[Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

12. What progress his Department has made on establishing Government hubs outside London.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Alex Burghart)]

I am delighted to confirm that good progress is being made on the Government hubs programme. Phase 1 has been completed by His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, delivering 14 hubs across the UK, including two in Scotland and one each in Wales and Northern Ireland. Phase 2, led by the Government Property Agency, opened one hub last year in Birmingham, and further hubs are currently being delivered outside London in locations such as Bristol, Stoke and Peterborough.

[Rachael Maskell]

York has long been promised a Government hub—indeed, it was once promised the House of Lords, as the Minister might remember—but we have not yet seen the Government’s proposals. The hub’s nature and size seem to keep changing. Will he meet me to talk about the Government’s proposal and to ensure it can be co-produced so that it not only benefits the civil service but benefits York?

[Alex Burghart]

I am very happy to meet the hon. Lady to discuss that. The Cabinet Office is committed to growth in York, and Cabinet Office jobs, including in United Kingdom Security Vetting, are likely to move to a new hub in York in 2027. We are actively considering options on the location, and we will update the House in due course.

[Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)]

13. What steps he is taking with Cabinet colleagues to ensure value for money in public spending.

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[Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab)]

15. What progress the Government have made on enshrining in law the public good, value for money, transparency, integrity, fair treatment of suppliers and non-discrimination as principles of public procurement.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Alex Burghart)]

The Procurement Bill, which will be debated on Third Reading in the other place on 13 December, enacts the principles set out in the “Transforming public procurement” Green Paper. Through the combination of objectives set out in clause 12 and specific rules, we will provide clarity to contracting authorities and suppliers about how they should implement the principles.

[Richard Burgon]

I thank the Minister for his answer. Billions of pounds in covid contracts were handed to those with links to top Tories through the so-called VIP lanes, and much of it was for equipment that was simply unusable, yet the Government’s new Procurement Bill is so full of loopholes that all this could happen again. To help clamp down on this, will the Minister now back putting a new clawback clause in the Bill, so that in future we can get the money back from those who rip off the public?

[Alex Burghart]

I very much look forward to debating that Bill when it comes to this place, including with the hon. Gentleman. I remind the House that the Bill gives this country the opportunity to rewrite procurement in this country, which we could not have done while we were in the European Union, making it more advantageous to our public services and our businesses, and better for the public.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab)]

We have seen in eye-watering detail this week the price the taxpayer pays when the Government lose control of procurement during a crisis and panic: billions spent on unusable personal protective equipment written off; millions spent on storing that PPE; and millions pocketed by greedy shell companies that failed to deliver. The Government have a responsibility to uphold basic standards and, especially in an emergency, to restore normal controls as soon as possible, so can the Minister explain why the Procurement Bill hands Ministers more power over direct awards than ever before?

[Alex Burghart]

The Bill sets out a new paradigm for public services to procure in this country. It will move us away from “most economically advantageous” tender to “most advantageous” tender. That means we will be able to take account of things such as transparency, social responsibility and fairness in a way that was not possible under EU legislation.

[Anna Firth (Southend West) (Con)]

17. What steps his Department is taking to increase apprenticeship opportunities in the civil service.

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[Sarah Atherton (Wrexham) (Con)]

T2.   The previous Minister for Government efficiency, my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg), visited Wrexham to discuss its potential under the Places for Growth programme, with a view to locating a civil service Ministry of Justice hub in the city. Will the Minister please give me an update?

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Alex Burghart)]

As my hon. Friend mentions, the Government Property Agency is in dialogue with the Cabinet Office’s Places for Growth programme team to identify the possible demand for relocating civil service roles to Wrexham. Discussions are ongoing in a number of regions and cities across the country; I am sure she will understand that, until further commercial negotiations are concluded and Departments have informed staff, Government hub locations cannot be confirmed. However, I can confirm that future locations are under active consideration.

[Mr Speaker]

We now come to the deputy Leader of the Opposition.

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[Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)]

NHS dentistry faces many challenges, one of which is ensuring that locally based practices have every opportunity to bid for contracts successfully. Can my hon. Friend set out how the Procurement Bill will enable them to do so?

[Alex Burghart]

This Government want NHS dental service contracts to be attractive. The intention is that the procurement of healthcare services such as dentistry will be subject to the rules set out under the anticipated provider selection regime as enacted by the Health and Care Act 2022. The Procurement Bill will apply to other services and help to break down barriers for small businesses of all kinds to engage in public sector procurement.

[Brendan O'Hara (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)]

On Tuesday the House passed a motion instructing the Government to release all correspondence relating to the awarding of a multi-million-pound contract with PPE Medpro. That motion went through unopposed, and the papers will be released, but shortly before that the Cabinet Office rejected a similar request from the Good Law Project, saying that disclosure would,

“make it harder for the responsible department to secure a sound financial and contractual basis for the future”,

concluding that,

“the public interest favours withholding this information”.

What changed so dramatically between that reply to the Good Law Project and Tuesday’s debate?

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

T4. The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Alex Burghart), knows that there is a war on. Part of our contribution should be a great national endeavour to cut our energy consumption, should it not?

[Alex Burghart]

A planned communication programme is coming this winter. Maybe we should be looking at the temperature in this House. Ambient though it is, would it not be better if we all had a chance to put on fresh jumpers to keep warm?

[Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab)]

T5. As reported on BBC news this morning, tens of thousands of civil servants who are members of the PCS union have balloted overwhelmingly to strike over the coming weeks and months at Border Force, the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency, National Highways and the Rural Payments Agency. Is the Minister aware that levels of pay and in-work poverty in some areas of the civil service are such that now the Department for Work and Pension’s own staff are themselves increasingly having to claim universal credit? That is a disgrace. What is he going to do about it in terms of increasing the offer?

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[Alex Burghart]

The Government do not have a view on the upper limit of the House of Lords. The House of Lords contains a great many with expertise that the hon. Gentleman could learn from.

[Anna Firth (Southend West) (Con)]

The planned trade union strikes threaten to disrupt not just Christmas and rail services but essential health services. Southend University Hospital is doing brilliantly in bringing on-stream two new ambulance handover units and a new winter ward. Can my right hon. Friend assure me that he will put in place contingency plans to ensure that my constituents have access to emergency healthcare at Christmas?

Counsellors of State Bill [Lords]

Alex Burghart Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 1st December 2022 Commons Chamber

[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss clause 2 stand part.

[Alex Burghart]

The clause provides that His Royal Highness the Earl of Wessex and Her Royal Highness the Princess Royal can be delegated royal functions as Counsellors of State during his or her lifetime respectively. Subsection (2) provides that Their Royal Highnesses are subject to the proviso and disqualification from acting as a Counsellor of State as set out in the 1937 Act.

Clause 2 establishes the short title and provides that the Bill will come into force on the day after it receives Royal Assent.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair.

Bill reported, without amendment.

Third Reading

[Alex Burghart]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

These are slightly unusual proceedings; the House is not accustomed to such agreement. It has been an honour to be part of these rare proceedings—and rare they are, as our House has not had to debate such matters for nearly 70 years, since 1953. It is therefore right that I take a few moments to thank all of those who have been responsible for drawing up such important legislation so quickly. I thank particularly our excellent officials in the Cabinet Office, who in many ways are the guardians of the constitution, and the Cabinet Secretary for his particular knowledge of these matters. I also thank the right hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner), his Majesty’s loyal Opposition and the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Brendan O'Hara) from the SNP Front Bench for their genuinely constructive and supportive position on these matters.

It is perhaps fitting that we are touching lightly on these matters this year, in which we have been reminded of how the monarchy remains a fundamental part of our living and breathing constitution, as it has been since the formation of our kingdom in the 10th century. It also remains an enormous asset to our country and an intrinsic part of who we are. I am delighted that the Bill has commanded such clear support and commend it to the House. God save the King.

Counsellors of State Bill [Lords]

Alex Burghart Excerpts

2nd reading
Thursday 1st December 2022 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Alex Burghart)]

It is a genuine pleasure to close a Second Reading debate in which there has been such consensus, and concise consensus at that. At times, as we have seen, that consensus has lapsed into adoration.

[Angela Rayner]

You’ll feel it one day!

[Alex Burghart]

One day, maybe—who knows?

As several hon. Members pointed out, the Bill is a necessary short piece of legislation that brings resilience to our constitutional arrangements and does so at speed. It was necessary that we brought a short Bill before Parliament to get the measures through quickly. The reason for that is, as we all know, His Majesty will soon start to travel in the fulfilment of his duties to the country, so we wanted to have things in place as quickly as possible. I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner) for recognising that and paying tribute to the two new Counsellors of State whom we are appointing today and to how respected they already are. She is right to point to the Regency Act and the fact that the royal household has confirmed that Counsellors of State will only be working royals.

I also pay tribute to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton North (Michael Ellis). Little can be added to his speech, because there is little that anyone can teach him about the workings of our constitution. He was an illustrious member of the Front-Bench team and an extremely well informed Minister in the Cabinet Office. I know that some of his expertise was brought to bear in the design and drafting of the legislation, and I am grateful to him for that.

I also thank the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Brendan O'Hara), who spoke from the SNP Front Bench. He raised a point about the order of precedence. Obviously, the law of succession was changed a few years ago to enable girls born to the sovereign to inherit, but that did not change the existing order of succession. That is why the Princess Royal and the Earl of Wessex feature in the order in which they do. In addition, I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Philip Dunne) for his remarks and concur with what he said.

I am delighted that we have heard in the debate how the Bill commands considerable support in the House, as it did in the other place. I know that this Parliament will wish to be of assistance and support to our sovereign as he goes about his duties.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time; to stand committed to a Committee of the whole House (Order, this day).

Independent Adviser on Ministerial Interests

Alex Burghart Excerpts

Wednesday 30th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Angela Rayner (Ashton-under-Lyne) (Lab)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he will provide an update on the appointment of an independent adviser on ministerial interests and enforcement of the ministerial code.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Alex Burghart)]

The Government welcome the opportunity to stress again the importance of the role of the independent adviser and this Government’s commitment to it. The Prime Minister has been very clear that the appointment of a new independent adviser is a priority and that the appointment process is under way. Hon. Members will understand that an appointment of this nature is significant and has to be done well. Much as hon. Members might wish me to, it would not be appropriate for me to comment further on specifics of what is an ongoing appointments process. Let me assure hon. Members: the adjudication of issues of ministerial conduct does not stop because the independent adviser is not yet in post. Conduct matters and conduct issues will be dealt with quickly and appropriately, irrespective of that appointment process.

That is what hon. Members will have seen with regard to complaints made against the Deputy Prime Minister. On receipt of formal complaints by the Cabinet Office, the Prime Minister requested that an independent investigation be conducted by an individual from outside Government, and Adam Tolley KC has been appointed to conduct the investigation. The terms of reference have now been published. The process is under way, and Mr Tolley will provide his report to the PM in due course. It is right that these matters are investigated fully, but it would not be right to comment further on them when that process is ongoing.

I would also like to reassure hon. Members that the process of managing the interests of Ministers continues in the absence of an independent adviser. The permanent secretary, as the policy expert on each Department’s remit, leads the process in their Department in the absence of an independent adviser. The Cabinet Office is able to provide advice in line with precedent. All relevant interests are declared by Ministers upon taking office and are kept up to date at all times. The publication of the list of Ministers’ interests is the end point of the ministerial interests process, and it takes place at regular intervals to make the public aware of the relevant interests of Ministers.

I will end by reiterating that as soon as there is an update on the process to appoint an independent adviser on Ministers’ interests, the Government will update the House.

[Angela Rayner]

Thank you, Mr Speaker, for granting this urgent question.

How many times have I heard, “Soon; jam tomorrow; mañana, mañana”? We need the Prime Minister, who promised to appoint an independent ethics adviser as one of his first acts, to actually deal with this issue. Yet despite Ministers being accused of bullying and intimidation, or being reappointed despite security breaches, there is still no adviser. It is clear that ethics and integrity are not a priority for the Government, despite the Prime Minister’s words.

We are told that recruitment is under way, but apparently no one will accept this poisoned chalice. So can the Minister tell us how many candidates have been approached and how many have refused the job? Will the Prime Minister follow his disgraced predecessors by denying the so-called independent adviser the power to launch their own investigations? Or does he have no plan to restore standards? Will he just preserve the rotten regime that he inherited?

What on earth is the system in the meantime? Who will investigate the allegations of Islamophobia made by one serving Minister against another? The Minister mentioned the Deputy Prime Minister, who had to demand an investigation into himself because the Prime Minister was too weak to do so. How many formal complaints have now been made? The Minister mentions Adam Tolley. Why is he not allowed to proactively investigate the so-called informal complaints? Will he investigate allegations made by the former permanent secretary? And who will finally get to the bottom of the dangerous use of private emails by Ministers?

No. 10 said in reference to the Home Secretary that it could not investigate breaches under previous Administrations. But that is what is happening now with the Deputy Prime Minister, so why not? Why now is there an excuse for refusing to investigate the Home Secretary’s breach? Will the Prime Minister appoint a truly independent watchdog?

[Alex Burghart]

It is wonderful to hear the right hon. Lady’s interest in this matter today. As it happens, we had a debate on this very issue in Westminster Hall yesterday. The House will be shocked to hear—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I am here, Minister, not over there—and I hate to say it, but there is nobody even standing on that side.

[Alex Burghart]

Thank you for the reminder, Mr Speaker.

The House will be shocked to hear that the right hon. Lady was not present at that Westminster Hall debate—[Interruption.] Because it was about the ministerial code, which is the subject of the urgent question. The right hon. Lady and her hon. Friends did not bother to show up, and they missed the opportunity to hear the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) speak very pertinently on this subject. Not only was the right hon. Lady not there, but her Front-Bench colleagues did not turn up to ask questions, either.

The right hon. Lady refers to rumours in the press, but let us look at the facts. The Prime Minister has been in office for 31 days. On his first day, he said he would make an appointment. He has made repeated assurances in this place and other places, as have members of the Cabinet, and that has continued in yesterday’s debate, at Prime Minister’s questions and for this urgent question.

The right hon. Lady talks about the powers of the independent adviser, but I remind her that in May this year, Lord Geidt said that we had come up with “a workable scheme”. I have to say that it is starting to sound very much like the Opposition cannot take yes for an answer. We are going to have an independent adviser who will have the powers they need. They are going to be appointed very soon.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Scottish National party spokesperson.

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[Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)]

When the Government published their policy paper on revisions to the ministerial code on 27 May, it said that there would be “an enhanced process” for the initiation of investigations under the ministerial code, that the independent adviser could initiate his or her own investigations, that there would be a more specific reference to the adviser in the ministerial code, and that there would be a duty on Ministers to provide all the information necessary to allow the adviser to discharge his or her duties. However, it turns out that the Prime Minister is not offering potential candidates any enhanced powers, meaning that advisers will not be able to launch their own investigations, and that confirms the blocking of the expansion of powers by his predecessor. So it is a simple question: why are the Government reneging on their own policy statement of May this year, making it more difficult to appoint an independent adviser?

[Alex Burghart]

I refer the right hon. Gentleman to the answer I gave a few moments ago. He seems terribly well informed, but he seems to have stopped short of reading Lord Geidt’s response to the changes in the terms of reference, where he said that

“this would be a workable scheme”.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

I hear what the Minister says, but can he give any timescale of when the appointment will be made? In the meantime, can I ask specifically what advice is being given to Ministers and, more importantly, their special advisers on the use of private email and WhatsApp groups?

[Alex Burghart]

As I have said, there is a process ongoing to appoint an independent adviser as fast as possible. The Prime Minister has been in post for 31 days, and there is standing advice on the use of WhatsApp and private messaging.

[Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab)]

Can the Minister confirm whether the fee paid to Adam Tolley KC to investigate the claims he mentioned earlier is greater than the projected annual cost of an ethics adviser?

[Alex Burghart]

I do not know the answer to that question. I am happy to write to the hon. Lady to answer.

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

Notwith-standing the Minister’s earlier comments, we have been waiting for five months now for an ethics adviser. Every time the Government fail to appoint one, it further undermines and corrodes this place’s reputation in the public mind. I have tabled a Bill that would give Parliament the power to appoint an ethics adviser if the Government fail to do so. Given the Government’s inability to appoint an ethics adviser, will the Minister now please support that Bill and allow us to get on with re-establishing the good reputation of this place?

[Alex Burghart]

The hon. Lady will have heard me point out that the Prime Minister, who has said he will appoint an independent adviser, has only been in post for 31 days and that a process is going on at speed. In answer to her other question, it is very much the view of this Government that it is the Prime Minister who appoints the independent adviser to give advice to the Prime Minister, who answers ultimately to Parliament.

[Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)]

Since I became an MP in 2010, we have seen seven current or former Labour MPs, two Conservatives, one Liberal Democrat and one Scottish Nationalist given custodial sentences. We have countless other cases that come before the House, and the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) has spoken eloquently about this previously. We have a by-election tomorrow caused by a Labour MP standing down in disgrace, so there is a big issue to solve with standards in our public life, and it goes right across this House. I am therefore pleased that my hon. Friend the Minister has been able to update the House on the recruitment process that is under way. Does he agree that backing a stronger code of conduct for Members of Parliament is proof that the Government are taking the code of conduct in this place seriously?

[Alex Burghart]

It is very good to hear from my hon. Friend. He is absolutely right. This Government take the code of conduct for Members extremely seriously.

[Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)]

In the absence of an ethics adviser, can the Minister inform the House of the status of the inquiry into Islamophobia that was ordered in January this year?

[Alex Burghart]

I know that the next independent adviser will want to take that case extremely seriously.

[Ronnie Cowan (Inverclyde) (SNP)]

It is important to point out that the Prime Minister appoints his own ethics adviser. He then determines which investigations can be undertaken, and then he determines what actions are taken depending on the outcome. Is that maybe why the last two ethics advisers have resigned?

[Alex Burghart]

The hon. Gentleman will have heard me say several times, in reference to whether an independent adviser can initiate proceedings, that Lord Geidt was happy with the proposals made in May; he said that it would be a workable scheme.

[Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)]

This is a really serious issue that undermines confidence in the ethics of this place and the Government. Lord Geidt gave evidence to the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee, and resigned two days later, following our questioning. That needs to be taken seriously. We are still very concerned about this issue, the appointment process—Lord Geidt was alighted upon—and the remit. If the Minister does not want to discuss the process in public, will he commit to meeting the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee in private, if there is no movement on this issue in the next couple of weeks?

[Alex Burghart]

I am confident that an independent adviser will be appointed very soon, so I am not sure that there will be a need for such a meeting.

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

Is it not in the best interests of ethics for the ethics adviser to be completely independent of the Prime Minister?

[Alex Burghart]

They are an independent adviser appointed by the Prime Minister because, ultimately, in our system, the Prime Minister has ultimate responsibility.

[Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab)]

The ethics adviser is required to publish an annual report that sets out their work so the public can see it, alongside a list of ministerial interests twice per year, which sets out the relevant private interests of all Ministers. Can the Minister inform us whether we can expect a report this year and, if so, who is drafting it?

[Alex Burghart]

An independent adviser will be appointed in the very near future. It will be at the very top of their list, I am sure, to get the ministerial interests published.

[Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD)]

I was at the debate secured by the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) yesterday, where he rightly pointed out the difference between the Members’ code of conduct and register and what Ministers have. To reiterate what the hon. Member for Luton South (Rachel Hopkins) said, the last printing of the ministerial register was at the end of May; today is 30 November. To be kind to the Government, that is six months today, so surely it is not unreasonable to expect that standards list to come as soon as possible.

[Alex Burghart]

I have to give credit to the hon. Lady, because she was at the debate yesterday, unlike many of the Labour Members present. She will have heard me say then, as I have just said again, that we will have an independent adviser very soon and they will be expected to prioritise the publication of the ministerial interests.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for his responses. There are concerns that there is currently no ethics adviser to the PM. The post has been vacant for six months, so there is urgency. Can the Minister confirm that the independent adviser will be appointed and the timescale for that to happen, so that Ministers can refer to that adviser for the guidance, assistance and advice that they need?

[Alex Burghart]

It is always a pleasure to answer questions from the hon. Gentleman. He will have heard me say that we are in the process of appointing an independent adviser at speed, and they will be able to deal with all relevant issues once they are appointed.

Ministerial Code

Alex Burghart Excerpts

Tuesday 29th November 2022 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Alex Burghart)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Vickers, and to respond to the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) in whatever capacity and with whichever hat he is wearing today. He, like me, has a second job—mine is currently as a Minister in the Cabinet Office. It was very good of him to enunciate how many days I was in my previous post; now I have a record in Hansard that I can refer back to when I want to check it.

Although my response today will be relatively brief, I want the hon. Gentleman to know that, as a new Minister, I am genuinely interested in the points he has raised and I will certainly consider them with colleagues. He has previously raised these important points in the House on a number of occasions, including 7 September, I think—it is my birthday; I remember it well—and again on 18 October. He is right to say that in the coming weeks we will have an opportunity to debate these matters again.

The hon. Gentleman raises substantial issues concerning transparency, timeliness and the independent adviser. As the Leader of the House said a few weeks ago of the recommendations proposed by the Committee on Standards, which the hon. Gentleman chairs, we are

“very conscious that there is further progress to be made and the House should have the opportunity to consider the additional recommendations”.

We are looking to identify solutions that command cross-party support on outstanding issues, including to improve the transparency and timeliness of ministerial declarations. The Government are very clear in our views that, as the Leader of the House said,

“the rules regulating Members’ interests and ministerial interests”—[Official Report, 18 October 2022; Vol. 720, c. 636.]

are distinct. However, the hon. Gentleman has raised important points about consistency that bear further cogitation.

I can confirm that we are talking to officials about proposals we are considering to bring forward and improve the system, and that revised guidance on ministerial transparency data will be published in the coming weeks, first on gov.uk. The guidance will be updated to more closely reflect modern working practices and Ministers’ obligations under the ministerial code. As the Leader of the House has said, we are mindful of the BAFTA challenge that has been set by the hon. Gentleman. As I said, there are important points on consistency.

[Chris Bryant]

The Minister entices me on the BAFTA point—and it is not just the BAFTA point, but the Bond point. If I were invited to a Bond premiere, with tickets worth something like £2,000 or £2,500, I would have to declare that within 28 days, detailing the cost and who had paid for it. All that would then be published within two weeks. However, several Home Secretaries and Foreign Secretaries ago, when the then Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for Witham (Priti Patel), and the then Foreign Secretary, the right hon. Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), went, they decided that they had gone in their ministerial capacities. A colleague of the Minister said that they had gone in a ministerial capacity because the Home Secretary has responsibility for MI6, which is incorrect.

Can the Minister see that the whole concept of going to a Bond premiere in a ministerial capacity brings the whole system into disrepute? Would it not be simpler for everything to be in a single place, so that members of the public could openly and transparently see the full range of a Minister’s interests?

[Alex Burghart]

The hon. Gentleman has made his point very clearly once again.

On timeliness, in autumn this year the Government reaffirmed their commitment to transparency, and said they would publish transparency data within 90 days of the end of each quarter. The Cabinet Office has strengthened advice to Departments on open access data, which will ensure that ministerial transparency is easily accessible to all. I appreciate what the hon. Member for Rhondda says about the importance of members of the public being able to see what is happening as promptly as possible. I can see that he is anxious to intervene again.

[Chris Bryant]

It is just that 90 days is not prompt; it is 28 days in this House. After 90 days, people have forgotten what they went to. I do not understand why it could not be within a fortnight, especially given the fact that Ministers might move on or make different decisions in the intervening time.

[Alex Burghart]

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that Ministers will not have forgotten what they went to. As he is aware, there is a very clear process, which involves permanent secretaries and good internal recording systems. He is right that the last account was published in May. It is ordinarily published every six months, so although we have been without an independent adviser, we would only be coming up for the next publication now. Because the new independent adviser is yet to be appointed, that will probably be delayed, but the Government expect it to be a very high priority for the new adviser, when he or she is appointed.

[Chris Bryant]

The obvious questions are, when will the adviser be appointed, and can the Minister confirm that at least three people have already been offered the post and turned it down?

[Alex Burghart]

The hon. Gentleman appears to have information, if it indeed is true, that is not available to me. I have not been made aware that anyone has turned the job down. I reiterate that the Prime Minister has said that the appointment of an independent adviser is a priority for him. He is pursuing it with urgency, and we very much hope and expect that an independent adviser will be in place soon. That will kick-start a number of processes that have fallen into abeyance.

[Chris Bryant]

I am sorry to impose on the Minister in this way, but I just offer a piece of—I hope—helpful advice. My guess is that people might be refusing the job because they are worried that their position, credibility and reputation will be at risk unless the Prime Minister agrees that a new adviser can initiate investigations, including into the Prime Minister if necessary, without the say-so of the Prime Minister, and can recommend sanctions. Unless the Government make that change, I cannot see how anybody worth having in the role will accept it.

[Alex Burghart]

Obviously, in May the Government said that the independent adviser would have the power to initiate investigations. The then independent adviser Lord Geidt said that that was a workable solution. As I say, there will be a new independent adviser soon. That is the desire of the Prime Minister. He is keen to ensure that our process is fit for purpose, and he is keen, as the hon. Member for Rhondda is, to ensure that we have transparency, accountability and timeliness. I am very confident that this Administration, under this Prime Minister, with a new independent adviser, can deliver that.

Question put and agreed to.

Infected Blood Inquiry and Compensation Framework

Alex Burghart Excerpts

Thursday 24th November 2022 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Alex Burghart)]

It is a pleasure to be able to speak in this extremely important debate, Dame Angela. I say to the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Florence Eshalomi), who speaks from the Labour Front Bench, that the Government absolutely hear loud and clear what has been said today. Although I am just a few weeks into the job, I have been enormously struck by the sheer weight of grief and experience that has led us to this point today and will lead us to our final destination, hopefully next year.

As so many others have, I pay tribute to the family members, the sufferers, the carers and friends of the people who were involved in this awful incident so many years ago. I also congratulate the APPG. I have listened to the debate, and this is Parliament at its best. A tragedy that affected all parts of our United Kingdom has seen very personal stories reflected by Members of Parliament, and has brought parties from different sides of the political divide together to represent their constituents and seek justice. I pay tribute to right hon. and hon. Members who have spoken up for their constituents today.

I am confident that Sir Brian Langstaff’s infected blood inquiry, whose report we expect in the middle of next year, will deliver the answers that the victims of infected blood have waited so long for, and will make recommendations for compensation and wider recommendations to ensure that such a disaster can never happen again in our country.

The infected blood inquiry has heard first hand of the terrible suffering experienced by the victims of infected blood over many years, and the terrible financial hardship faced by many as a result of their infections and the burden of caring for stricken loved ones. This Government commissioned Sir Robert Francis KC to produce an independent study with options for a workable and fair framework of compensation for those infected and affected by the tragedy. As everyone knows, Sir Robert’s study was published in June of this year.

Following Sir Robert’s detailed evidence given to the inquiry in July, the chair of the infected blood inquiry, Sir Brian Langstaff, delivered an interim report to the Government. In his report, Sir Brian made the following recommendations:

“(1) An interim payment should be paid, without delay, to all those infected and all bereaved partners currently registered on UK infected blood support schemes, and those who register between now and the inception of any future scheme;

(2) The amount should be no less than £100,000, as recommended by Sir Robert Francis QC.”

On 16 August, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton North (Michael Ellis), then Minister for the Cabinet Office, wrote to Sir Brian to confirm that the Government had accepted his recommendations in full and that interim payments of £100,000 would be made by the end of October to all infected beneficiaries and bereaved partners registered with the four national support schemes. I am happy to confirm that those payments were made across the whole of the UK by 28 October. The payments are tax-free and will not affect any financial benefits or support an individual is receiving.

As my right hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire (Kit Malthouse), then the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, said when announcing those interim payments, they are the start and not the end of a process to respond positively and rapidly to the inquiry’s likely recommendations about compensation. On the comments made by the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford), we understand that this is limited justice, but we hope to fulfil that limited justice as quickly as possible. I also pay tribute to her for her work as a surgeon.

Although it would be wrong for me to try to second guess the likely recommendations of the independent inquiry, I fully expect Sir Brian to make recommendations about broader final compensation for the many victims of infected blood. In his interim report, Sir Brian referred specifically to bereaved parents and children and said that the moral case for their compensation was “beyond doubt”. He recognised what he called the

“greater degree of personal individualisation”

necessary in determining compensation for that group of victims, the complex nature of which made it difficult to include the group of bereaved victims in an interim scheme intended to be introduced as rapidly as possible. There can be little doubt that once he has considered the arguments in closing submissions, Sir Brian’s final report will make recommendations about compensation for a wider group of people.

Sir Robert’s study was commissioned so that the Government would be ready to address quickly any recommendations on compensation made by the inquiry. Officials are now working together across Government to produce options for compensation that can be quickly matched to the inquiry’s recommendations. On the point made by the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson) at the start of the debate, we have the resource in place across Government to do that work. We are doing it with the intention of being able to respond very swiftly to the inquiry’s findings when they come.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I am listening carefully to what the Minister is saying, but I just want to be clear. When will we see a response to Sir Robert’s review, which the Cabinet Office received in March? We are now eight months on. I know there has been political turmoil for many of those months, but if the civil servants were getting on with that work, on what date will we see the publication of the Government’s response to a report they have now had for over eight months?

[Alex Burghart]

I understand the right hon. Lady’s point. Sir Robert’s findings have fed into the inquiry. We are now preparing for the inquiry’s final findings and we will respond as quickly as possible.

[Sir Peter Bottomley]

I have perhaps interrupted the Minister as he was about to answers the question I am about to ask, but the Cabinet Office asked for the Robert Francis inquiry, not Brian Langstaff. Robert Francis’s report has been received by the Cabinet Office. Sir Brian Langstaff’s report is expected in the middle of next year. Are we seriously expected to believe that we will not hear anything more on the Government’s reaction to the Sir Robert Francis report before the middle of next year?

[Alex Burghart]

My hon. Friend the Father of the House is absolutely right that it was the Cabinet Office that asked Sir Robert to conduct the work. The findings have now been fed into the inquiry and are being considered. I draw his attention to the remarks that Sir Robert made on the BBC’s “Today” programme on 17 August. He said that the Government were considering the matter and that it was very complex. He said that they had to wait for Sir Brian’s recommendations because his own work was feeding into that inquiry, and he had given options for them to consider.

[Sir Peter Bottomley]

The Minister fairly quotes Robert Francis. It would be possible for us to text Robert and ask whether he would like to us to say the following, but if the Minister can give some responses to some of Sir Robert’s recommendations before the middle of next year, would he be willing to consider doing that, please?

[Alex Burghart]

I am very happy to have that conversation. The Minister for the Cabinet Office and I are meeting the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North in the coming weeks, and I am sure that will be a central part of our discussion.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I am sorry to press the point, but in March, when the Government were given a copy of Sir Robert’s report, they made it very clear that they were going to publish it at the same time as the Government response. They wanted to publish the full response at the same time. Is the Minister now saying that that was not what was intended and that any Minister telling Parliament that that would happen was actually misleading Parliament?

[Alex Burghart]

I hope that the right hon. Lady will appreciate that I was not the Minister at the time; I have been in post for just a few weeks and I do not want to say anything that is incorrect. However, my understanding is that following the work done by Sir Robert, Sir Brian called Sir Robert to give evidence and then he himself made recommendations about interim payments that the Government immediately responded to. I also hope that the right hon. Lady will bear that in mind when considering the Government’s likely response in the future. The Government said that they would respond very swiftly on interim payments and they did so. Before the end of October, as we pledged, the interim payments were all received by those affected. I hope that she will take that as an indication of our desire to move as quickly as possible, in keeping and in line with Sir Brian’s ultimate recommendations.

[Dr Whitford]

I am also a member of the APPG who has been part of the campaign throughout and took part in the tabling of parliamentary questions that were repeated ad nauseam to get a response. What was talked about in the Chamber was a response from the Government to the Sir Robert Francis report that would come at the same time as the publication—the reference was not to Sir Brian Langstaff’s call for interim payments nor to Sir Robert’s, but to the Sir Robert Francis report. The Minister must surely understand that given the 19 recommendations in the report, victims and their families want to know whether they can trust what is coming down the line. The idea of keeping them waiting for another seven or eight months is just cruel.

[Alex Burghart]

I understand what the hon. Lady is saying, but it is very important that Sir Brian’s findings are the final word on this matter and that the Government can respond to them as quickly as possible. The work that Sir Robert has done has obviously informed an enormous amount of work across Government to make sure that we can respond very quickly when the findings are produced in the middle of next year.

[Ian Lavery]

I am sure that an enormous amount of work is going on, but if we consider the recent trend of one individual dying every four days since 2007, my calculation is that if we have to wait until the middle of next year, in excess of another 50 people, all victims of contaminated blood, will pass away before they see even a penny of compensation. As a Minister of the Crown, the Minister cannot accept that that is fair to the victims. What message will he give to them?

[Alex Burghart]

The hon. Gentleman will have heard me pay tribute to everyone who is going through and has been through this awful experience. However, I hope he will appreciate that it is very important to ensure that what the Government might say now does not cut across what Sir Brian intends to say in his final report. Everyone can have confidence that that will be the final word and that the Government will then have the opportunity to respond quickly, to get everyone affected the support that they deserve.

[Chris Stephens]

Can I gently suggest to the Minister that he needs to be careful here? There is is already a significant lack of trust in the Government among those impacted. Sir Robert’s study made a number of recommendations, but we have not heard the Government’s response to those recommendations, including on the setting up of an arm’s length body to administer the compensation scheme. Can he confirm that the Government accept that recommendation?

[Alex Burghart]

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will know that that is one of the things that Sir Brian is looking at and that we will respond to Sir Brian’s findings. We take the matter enormously seriously and we understand the real desire for maximum speed; I know that people have waited for a very long time to get what the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire called limited justice. However, the truth is that I very much hope and believe that we are in sight of that endpoint now.

[Chris Stephens]

I am trying to be polite, Dame Angela, but significant recommendations from Sir Robert’s study were put to the Government. Not all of them are about compensation moneys; some of them are about the administration of any scheme, so that the Government are ready. Can we have some sort of response from the Government about those aspects of that report, please, because that will build confidence and do away with the lack of trust out there?

[Alex Burghart]

The hon. Gentleman will have heard me say that we are working across Government to make sure we are in a position to respond very quickly to what happens with Sir Brian’s report in the middle of next year. I understand that there are questions of trust for historic reasons, but I hope that the fact that the Government have been able to respond quickly, promptly and to our own timescales on the delivery of the interim payments will do something to show that the Administration are absolutely committed to doing the right thing.

[Dr Whitford]

Not all of Sir Robert Francis’s recommendations are about the future and a final compensation scheme. Some relate to the support schemes that people are dependent on now. Why should action on those recommendations be delayed until the middle of next year when people face a cost of living crisis now? Surely if the Government responded to the more acute recommendations, saying they want to wait longer, would that not at least be a start?

--- Later in debate ---

[Alex Burghart]

I will say to the hon. Lady what I said to the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North a few moments ago: my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office and I are meeting the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North in the coming weeks and I would be happy to make sure that that is at the top of the agenda.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

It is really not acceptable to say that the Minister will meet the APPG as a way of deflecting from the important points that have been raised in the Chamber and the promises that have been made by successive Ministers in the Cabinet Office to this group of people who have suffered for far too long. We were told there would be a Government response to Sir Robert’s review. That is what we were told; that is what everybody is expecting. We were never led to believe that we would have to wait until the middle of next year when Sir Brian produces his final recommendations. The Cabinet Office put forward that work to have the review so it is ready to go as soon as Sir Brian makes his recommendations. It is totally unacceptable that the Government are behaving in this way.

[Alex Burghart]

I hope the right hon. Lady will not see it as deflection that we want to meet her and discuss these matters with her. I am sorry that she is dissatisfied with the response today. She will have a chance to discuss this with the Minister for the Cabinet Office and me in coming weeks, as she knows, because it is in her diary.

[Dr Whitford]

That will be in private.

[Alex Burghart]

For the sake of Hansard, the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire said that that meeting will be in private, but I am quite confident that at least one of the people participating will talk about it in public afterwards and that it may be the start of a longer dialogue.

[Sir Peter Bottomley]

On a point of order, Dame Angela, can we take what the Minister says as a definite maybe?

[Dame Angela Eagle (in the Chair)]

It is probably not a matter for me, but I observe that in here we are on the public record, so the Minister might wish to make some comments that he knows the Public Gallery and anyone who watches our proceedings will hear, rather than relying simply on a private meeting.

[Alex Burghart]

Thank you, Dame Angela. As I say, this is the continuation of a conversation that I very much look forward to having with the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North and the Minister for the Cabinet Office.

[Florence Eshalomi]

I hope the Minister will appreciate that a number of people who have come today to listen to the proceedings, the people who are watching and those who will watch on playback may not feel reassured that the Government are taking the matter seriously. My hon. Friend the Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden) mentioned how people do not want to have to travel again to relive and retell what they went through. I hope the Minister will understand that a number of us do not feel that his response has been acceptable.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alex Burghart]

I hear what the hon. Lady is saying, but I want to assure her that we take the matter extremely seriously. That is why the inquiry has been set up, why we have engaged fully with it, why we responded immediately to the call for interim payment, why we paid those payments on time and why we will continue to do what is necessary to see that justice is done.

I will now turn to the point raised by the hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) on backdating payments for Northern Ireland. I am afraid I will have to write to him on the issue, because I will need to consult colleagues in the Department of Health and Social Care and the Northern Ireland Department of Health. I will write to him as swiftly as I can.

[Colum Eastwood]

I am grateful for that commitment. Can the Minister bear in mind that we do not have a single Minister in Northern Ireland over any devolved area right now, and that people in Northern Ireland are getting a bad deal as a result of this scheme? The Government today published a budget in the devolved space for Northern Ireland, so what I am asking for is very doable for this Government. Please, please take it seriously.

[Alex Burghart]

I understand what the hon. Member is saying, and I will write to him as swiftly as I can.

A couple of Members raised the matter of destroyed medical records, and the inquiry is considering that closely. We expect the inquiry to make findings on this important issue, and we will respond to them as soon as we can after the inquiry reports.

To those individuals and others who are out of scope of the interim payments we have already made, I emphasise that the interim payments that the Government have announced are the start of the process, not the end. There is much work still to be done. Sir Robert’s compensation framework study has been warmly welcomed by the inquiry, and without prejudicing the findings of the independent inquiry, we fully expect Sir Robert’s wider recommendations to inform the inquiry’s final report when it is published next year. Until that time, the Government will continue to work in consideration of the broader recommendations of the compensation framework study so that we are ready to respond promptly when the inquiry concludes its work, as was our intention when we commissioned the study.

There is a point I wish to make that bears much repeating. No sum of money can ever compensate for the turmoil that infected people and their loved ones have faced, but I hope that the interim payments and the further work being undertaken by the Government demonstrate that we will do everything in our power to support them.

Enabling the Public to call a General Election

Alex Burghart Excerpts

Tuesday 15th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Richard Burgon]

The hon. Gentleman anticipates the point that I will move on to. It may be a case of great minds think alike.

That brings us to today. A form of recall power exists in a diverse range of countries and political systems. Over the past century, the countries that have made the greatest use of recall are Peru, Japan, the United States and Poland. Academic researchers note that recall provisions also exist at one level of Government or another—local, regional or national—in Argentina, Bolivia, Canada, Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador, Germany, Japan, Liechtenstein, Mexico, Latvia and Switzerland.

Perhaps the most famous case of recall in recent decades is the 2003 recall in California of Governor Gray Davis, where growing dissatisfaction about energy provision and public services led to the election of Governor Schwarzenegger. Because of the high interest in the recall election, the new governor received 650,000 more votes in his election than Governor Davis had received. Recall is generally used to remove individual elected officials, including Presidents, but there are examples, including the German Land of Berlin, where recall, initiated and approved by citizens, can be applied to the entire Parliament. Latvia goes even further: the electorate have a constitutional right to initiate a national referendum to recall Parliament. It is worth noting that recall is now supported by the largest progressive party in France. Mexico held its first-ever national recall election on the President earlier this year. Although that was initiated by the President, perhaps Mexico will be the next country to hold a citizen-initiated recall in the future.

According to Welp and Whitehead, the recall is currently in a “boom phase”, with Welp noting that recall provisions

“have been introduced more frequently since the 1980s”,

while

“in the past were restricted to small municipalities, they have recently reached bigger units such as California, Warsaw, Lima and even presidents.”

Why is recall becoming more popular? Welp and Whitehead explain that

“citizen dissatisfaction with their elected representatives is sufficiently acute and widespread to generate persistent pressure for the introduction of more direct forms of accountability.”

They argue that although recall is not without risk,

“There is some serious empirical support for the proposition that recall mechanisms...can indeed provide genuine improvements to the quality and credibility of democratic institutions when introduced and integrated into the rest of the representative system in a careful and constructive manner.”

My proposal would, as a starting point, seek to amend the Dissolution and Calling of Parliament Act 2022 to allow people to directly call an election under the following circumstances: first, if we are more than halfway through the five-year maximum period for a Parliament; and secondly, if at least half the number of voters in the previous general election endorse the call for an early general election via an official petition process.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Alex Burghart)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on a very interesting speech. I was wondering how he settled on that threshold.

[Richard Burgon]

This is an opening gambit to try to start a discussion. I am pleased that the Minister seems to be interested in the idea. In his response, if time allows, perhaps he will say that in principle he agrees with this further means of improving and refining our democracy.

Whatever arguments are made against my plan, it cannot be said that in principle recall procedures are incompatible with our democracy. In 2015, this House enacted the Recall of MPs Act, a new law under which voters would be able to recall their constituency Member of Parliament in certain circumstances. This was in response to the MPs expenses scandal. Under this new Act, for a recall petition to be successful, 10% of eligible registered voters need to sign a petition that is open for six weeks. Electors may sign in person, by post or by proxy. The Recall of MPs Act was undoubtedly a step forward, but a major shortcoming is that, unlike provisions in other countries, it does not allow constituents to begin proceedings unless the MP is found guilty of wrongdoing. This shortcoming was widely recognised at the time. The then Conservative MP, now Lord Goldsmith, said at the time:

“Recall is supposed to be about empowering voters to hold their MPs to account, and the Government’s proposals fall scandalously short. They don’t empower voters in any meaningful sense at all”.

We are obviously from the two ends of the political spectrum, but I very much agree with those remarks. Since 2015 and the new recall Act, the rot has got ever deeper in our politics and much bolder measures are required.

Our democracy is in crisis. People out there have lost faith in this Government and are losing trust in our institutions. If we want to rebuild trust in our institutions, people need to see that they are working for them. Recall can be a key way of empowering people and restoring trust in our democratic institutions. Although recall is widely used across the world in a variety of contexts, I accept that it is not commonly used at the national level in Europe, but it was once uncommon for women to have the vote. When Finland became the first country in Europe to give women the vote in 1906, it was radical, it was a new idea, it was untested in Europe, and people said it would never work. Of course, it did, and it was right. Democracies therefore can be upgraded for the better. This place is often styled the mother of all Parliaments, so why should Britain not be a pioneer for a better democracy? We should acknowledge the deep deficiencies of our system and organise for something better.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Alex Burghart)]

I must say that it is a pleasure—a genuine pleasure—to take part in an Adjournment debate such as this, to respond to a speech that has been very well researched, and to think about the big and important questions we should we always consider when looking at the future of our constitution and our democracy. To an extent, we spend too little time in this place thinking about how the operation of our Parliament, our Government and our relationship with the voters works, so I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Leeds East (Richard Burgon) for taking the time to do this work.

As I understand it, the hon. Gentleman is proposing that we amend the Dissolution and Calling of Parliament Act 2022 to the effect that the sovereign would dissolve Parliament if that Parliament was more than halfway complete—halfway through its five-year maximum term—and if at least half the number of voters who had voted at the previous general election signed a petition calling for Parliament to be dissolved, although as he said, that threshold is perhaps up for debate and is a starter for ten.

There is a mechanism that a Government could use if they wished to pursue this. We have had a very successful online petitions website for a number of years now, which allows people to register their interest in particular issues and to ask the Government to respond. At the moment, however, it does not quite have the verification capabilities necessary to allow Governments to be assured that those signing up are genuine voters, but perhaps those problems can be overcome. With reference to that successful site, I draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention to the fact that, for the past four months, it has had a live petition calling for a general election as soon as possible; in those four months it has acquired about 900,000 votes, which is a good sum but a very long way off the 50% that would be necessary under his system to trigger a general election. Even if these are, by his definition, extraordinary times, the clamour for a general election might not, therefore, be as strong as his remarks suggested.

That said, his well-considered remarks deserve proper consideration here, although I say at the outset—this will be no surprise to the hon. Gentleman—that we are not inclined to support his proposals. The 2022 Act, which fairly recently acquired Royal Assent, covered many of the issues on how Parliament is to be dissolved and general elections are to be held. I seem to remember that there was no opposition on that from the Labour Benches; I believe all Labour Members abstained. The hon. Gentleman perhaps missed an opportunity to table amendments at that time, but the joy of our system is that we can bring forward good ideas—or less good ideas—at any point.

For a number of practical reasons, the hon. Gentleman’s proposal should be resisted and treated with great caution. It would introduce an unnecessary element of instability into our system; if we were to create a petition mechanism that kicked in at two and a half years, we would very likely find that we quickly entered a time of perpetual campaigning—two and a half years of preparation for starting an official petition campaign, followed by two and a half years of trying to get the petition through. I know the hon. Gentleman is an avid campaigner and will probably relish that prospect, but for those of us who cherish the opportunity for stable Government it would prove a great distraction.

I thought the hon. Gentleman might well mention the Chartists; indeed I feel I see before me a descendant of the Chartists of old. He will take some comfort from the fact that the Chartists were proved right on all their demands apart from one—their request for annual Parliaments. At the time, even some of their most ardent followers disputed the idea on grounds that it would create unnecessary cost, distraction and the inability of Governments to operate over the medium term.

That brings us to the crux of why the proposal would could be damaging to our finely balanced constitution. It is important to have Governments who can be assured that if they have a majority in the House—if they can command the confidence of the House—they will have space to operate and to take difficult decisions. Stability is often most needed at times when Governments are most unpopular, and we would run the risk of introducing a mechanism that would create further instability in periods of instability, and that could be to the detriment of all of us. There is, however, a very interesting idea in the hon. Gentleman’s proposals, and I am sure he will continue to develop them and bring them back to the House.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

The Minister mis-portrays my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds East (Richard Burgon), who is more a Digger and Leveller than a Chartist. He seems to be arguing about stability and how we would be in a continuous campaigning mode. Some people would call that campaigning; others might call it a continuous accountability mode in which Governments have to demonstrate daily that they are abiding by the will of the people who elected them. That is no bad thing, is it?

[Alex Burghart]

I stand corrected on the heritage of the hon. Member for Leeds East (Richard Burgon). Accountability comes in many forms. We are all accountable to our electorate through media and debates such as this. However, that is different from having a system that gives Governments a period of up to five years in power to make decisions that they can prove the benefits of. Indeed, it was not so long ago that we had Parliaments of seven years in this country and that the French presidency lasted seven years for the reason that Governments had time to fix problems and prove that their method of government was effective.

[John McDonnell]

That leaves the decision on when to call a general election to the whim of a Prime Minister and the judgment of the ruling party on when it can manipulate its popularity. Surely that is equally unstable. All we want to do is enable the people to make that decision.

[Alex Burghart]

I have a distinct recollection of a Prime Minister trying to do that in the not-too-distant past and finding that the electorate took a different view on whether she had made the right decision to call that election. Governments and Prime Ministers use that power at their peril, and they are aware of that.

To my mind, and the mind of the Government, it is much better to be able to guarantee a period in which a Prime Minister and Executive who hold the confidence of the House can legislate and operate in order to solve the problems that the country faces. To all parliamentarians comes judgment day, as Karl Popper referred to it. We must all face an election. The question is when. When our electorate go to the polls, they know that they are likely voting for us to be here for five years and on the understanding that, whoever gets into power will get five years to do the best job they can for the country and solve the problems that the country faces. That system has served us well, and that is why we continue to defend it. It has been a pleasure to debate with the hon. Member for Leeds East this evening, and I look forward to talking to him on constitutional matters long into the future.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

What an unusually interesting Adjournment debate.

Question put and agreed to.

Papers Relating to the Home Secretary

Alex Burghart Excerpts

Tuesday 8th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Alex Burghart)]

It is a pleasure to respond to this Opposition day debate, 10 days into the job though I am; this is a very important subject. It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Putney (Fleur Anderson). I should say at the outset that I can answer one of her questions: the Prime Minister will appoint an independent adviser in the very near future. I am sure that the House will hear about that in due course.

We have had a far-ranging debate. At times it ranged slightly further than you might have liked, Madam Deputy Speaker, from some very interesting insights into the thoughts of constituents in Guildford and Aberconwy to a minor digression on sausage making from the hon. Member for Gordon (Richard Thomson). Central to the motion, despite the digressions, is a serious issue that affects the very real business of government and how it is conducted: the question whether advice given to Ministers and Prime Ministers in private, in confidence, should be made public. Conservative Members are clear that it should not.

These are very serious matters that the Government take seriously. It is because we are taking them seriously that we cannot agree to the disclosure of the information set out in the motion. The thrust of this debate is that the Opposition seek to see inside the internal processes of ministerial appointments and to make public the discussions that may form part of any appointment. As my right hon. Friend the Paymaster General said, there are compelling and common-sense reasons why that desire should be resisted.

[Lee Anderson]

I am very confused. I have sat through this debate for three hours now. Can my hon. Friend explain why the Opposition are hearing from people in their droves asking to see these documents, yet nobody is asking Conservative MPs? Are the Opposition just playing politics?

[Alex Burghart]

I am shocked and surprised to hear that my hon. Friend has views. It is the first time that he has ever shared them with me. The Opposition have not entirely turned out to take part in this Opposition day debate, it is true.

Hon. Members will know that it is essential to the functioning of government that conversations that occur around appointments can take place in confidence, as my hon. Friends the Members for Devizes (Danny Kruger), for Ashfield (Lee Anderson) and for Heywood and Middleton (Chris Clarkson) mentioned.

[Stuart C. McDonald]

Let us say that we accept that the Government do not want to release these papers. As a compromise, will the Minister undertake to ensure that the new independent ethics adviser looks retrospectively at the appointment? Then everybody could be happy.

[Alex Burghart]

That is a matter for the last Administration. Also, as hon. Members across the House know, it is a very long-standing practice observed by Governments of all types that they do not give over advice given in confidence. It is a practice that respects the confidentiality of the advice given and the confidentiality owed to the adviser. To place all advice in a position in which it might subsequently be published and made public would have an absolutely deadening effect on the business of government, as my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd South (Simon Baynes) says.

What this really amounts to is gameplay by the Opposition. It is Labour Whips’ trick No. 666: ask the Government for information that they know but that Governments never release, and then feign horror and surprise when they do not release it. The fact is that a Labour Government would never publish such information. If the Opposition commit tonight to releasing such information should they be in power in future, the next Labour Government—may they never come—will bitterly regret that decision.

The shadow Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), can say that it is a simple matter of showing us what happened, but as a highly experienced legislator, Minister and Select Committee Chair she knows that this is not a simple matter. It was not a simple matter for the Labour party when it was asked to reveal the legal advice on Iraq, but in opposition it suddenly decided that it was a simple matter to get the Government to display their legal advice on Brexit. Several Members have noted that it is the case that Governments of all stripes do not release such information, and those on the Opposition Front Bench know it to be the case as well.



There is, as we have said, a very long-established process for the appointment of Ministers. It is the Prime Minister who decides who sits on the Front Bench. The Labour party knows as well as we do that Ministers hold office for as long as they retain the confidence of the Prime Minister, that it is for the Prime Minister to decide who sits in the Cabinet, and that it is for the Prime Minister to pick the best team to solve the problems that the country faces. If the Opposition do not like his choices, it is normally a sign that he has picked the right team. On immigration, the Prime Minister has picked my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Fareham (Suella Braverman) because he knows that she has the talent and knowledge that are necessary to help him to solve the small boats crisis in the channel. It is pretty clear tonight that the Labour party knows that too, and that is why it is seeking to undermine her. As we heard from my hon. Friends the Members for Ipswich (Tom Hunt) and for Ashfield, Labour is doing that because it is scared that she will get the job done.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Robin Millar) and a number of others have said, many important issues could have been debated tonight other than a motion asking for the release of papers that the Opposition know will not be released. The shadow Home Secretary said that “bit by bit” trust was being undermined. I will tell the Opposition what causes trust to be undermined: political games which call for the release of papers that cannot be released and which report rumours as facts, double standards which call for the release of papers that Labour would not have released when it was in power, and double standards which say that Ministers cannot be rehabilitated. I remember the very great Peter Mandelson being brought back on two occasions, but Labour will not forgive this Home Secretary once.

The truth is that this is a motion tabled with the aim of playing political games to try to tie up Ministers in process and reporting, to try to hurt the Government by asking them to deviate from long-standing practice that has previously been respected on both sides, and to try to distract attention from the fact that while the Government are busting a gut to solve the problems in the channel, the Opposition have no solutions. There is a reason why they want to talk about personnel, process and appointments: it is because they do not want to talk about policy.