Infected Blood Compensation Scheme

Chloe Smith Excerpts

Tuesday 21st May 2024 Commons Chamber

[John Glen]

I am very sorry to hear about the right hon. Gentleman’s constituents. I know from my prior experience that the Economic Secretary to the Treasury, my hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Bim Afolami), is best placed to address any issue related to the FCA. I understand the problems of jurisdiction of the FCA, particularly when it comes to unregulated activities, but I do not think I can help the right hon. Gentleman, and, with respect, I think he should address that question to my colleague in the Treasury.

[Chloe Smith (Norwich North) (Con)]

I am glad that my right hon. Friend the Minister has done a diligent job, which is reflective of his attitude towards the overall need and this gravest of situations. However, it all ought to have been done earlier, and I hold in mind my former constituent Annie Walker, who died in 2016. I wish she had been able to see this before she passed away, because she told me that she was tired of having to keep campaigning.

I also have in mind a current constituent, whom I will not name and with whom I work regularly on this issue. He has asked me to point out that the support schemes are, as per the Minister’s statement, due to change. He and I would be very grateful for as much clarity as possible on those schemes, which will be needed by many of the people involved.

Finally, may I urge the Minister and his colleagues in the Government to bring forward the regulations as soon as possible? If I understand it correctly, Sir Robert Francis may take a number of weeks. He has mentioned the month of June, and we have heard the figure of five weeks, so can I take it that we may see the regulations in July, which would allow, I hope, all Members—not just a selected Committee—of this House to do their job in scrutinising those regulations and get the job done as fast as possible?

[John Glen]

I thank my right hon. Friend for her questions, and for her personal engagement with me over recent weeks. The fact that she refers to an unnamed constituent provokes me to acknowledge that so many people have been so traumatised by their experiences and the stigma associated with their conditions that they have not been able to be as open as they would like.

With respect to the timeframe, the Government submitted to a three-month obligation to bring those regulations forward from Royal Assent of the Bill, which will happen, I think, in June or July. Of course, there will be time where we have to lay them before the House. I want to make sure that we do that in the most timely way possible. The purposeful intent, with the engagement under Sir Robert’s leadership, is to make sure that that is meaningful but also addresses the imperative around time.

Oral Answers to Questions

Chloe Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 19th July 2023 Commons Chamber

[Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)]

5. Whether she plans to bring forward legislative proposals to regulate the use of artificial intelligence.

[The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Chloe Smith)]

Our White Paper set out how we will regulate AI through a flexible framework underpinned by five principles. This proportionate and adaptable approach has been welcomed by British business. It includes new monitoring functions allowing us to update our approach in response to a rapidly evolving technology. The Government will come back with proposals in the autumn following the White Paper consultation.

[Owen Thompson]

AI has been used by public authorities in a wide range of contexts that affect individual rights, from facial recognition technology used by police to the system used by the Department for Work and Pensions to investigate benefits claimants. Does the Secretary of State agree that public trust in the state of AI is essential and that any changes to the law will require public support and, therefore, greater consultation to ensure that that trust is not undermined?

[Chloe Smith]

The hon. Gentleman makes a thoughtful point. He is right that we need a comprehensive public debate on many of these points. He named some risks that concern him. I would marry those with consideration about opportunities. For example, my colleagues in the Department for Work and Pensions are also looking at how the technology can help with job matching and ensuring that people have information about the job market. I look forward to further conversations, as he said, as we go forward with this critical technology.

[Drew Hendry]

Following calls from the SNP, the Minister for the Indo-Pacific, the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Anne-Marie Trevelyan), agreed that human rights must be at the forefront of AI diplomacy. Will the new UK laws on AI protect people by outlawing any collaboration or research with nations that seek to abuse human rights through, for example, facial recognition or social credit systems?

[Chloe Smith]

The hon. Gentleman also makes a thoughtful point, which is an important consideration in all our diplomacy and the work that my colleagues in the Foreign Office take forward. Specifically on AI technology, domestically we have set out our proposals in our White Paper, which as we have said will evolve over time, and internationally we are clear that we see a leadership opportunity for the United Kingdom, because we are already a global leader in this technology and care passionately about ensuring its safe and responsible deployment.

[Marion Fellows]

Researchers at Robust Intelligence recently discovered that AI could be trained to bypass its in-built restrictions and privacy protections within hours of use. Despite growing concerns about the impact of AI, the Government are expanding the scope of automated decision making as part of their Data Protection and Digital Information (No. 2) Bill. Can the public have confidence that sensitive personal data will be protected as the Government’s use of AI grows?

[Chloe Smith]

The short answer is yes. That is because, first, the legislation that the hon. Lady mentioned focuses on doing that. In addition, in our White Paper we set out the principles on which we intend to take advantage of AI, which ensure that we have safety, transparency, explainability, fairness, accountability and governance, and contestability and redress. Those are all vital, as I know she will agree, and there is much work ahead of us.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Chair of the Science, Innovation and Technology Committee.

[Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con)]

I congratulate the Secretary of State on her sure-footed discharge of her responsibilities over the past few weeks, which I think end today.

In the White Paper, there is a commitment that

“when parliamentary time allows…we will…strengthen and clarify regulators’ mandates by introducing a new duty requiring them to have due regard to the principles”

of the White Paper. Given the blistering pace of AI deployment and the fact that the forthcoming King’s Speech will be the last opportunity until 2025, will the Government confirm that they will bring forward that legislation in the next Session?

[Chloe Smith]

I thank the Chair of the Select Committee for his kind words about me. My right hon. Friend the Member for Chippenham (Michelle Donelan) will return later this week. It has been a privilege to help her by conducting her maternity cover at the highest levels.

My right hon. Friend the Chair of the Select Committee is correct that we set out that plan in our White Paper. We said that we anticipate introducing a statutory duty on regulators

“requiring them to have due regard to the principles”,

which I mentioned in my previous answer. He will also know that I cannot commit to the contents of the King’s Speech, but what I have already said this morning is that the Government will be returning to the House with a full update on the conclusion of the consultation on the White Paper.

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend’s leadership in this policy area. The conference in the autumn will give the Government an opportunity to lay out their plans for working with international partners. Does she agree that AI cannot be blocked or stopped, and therefore an open, pragmatic approach needs to be shown to harness the benefits of AI for the economy and society in general?

[Chloe Smith]

My right hon. Friend is correct. That is what we have laid out in our approach so far. As the Prime Minister said, we intend to lead overseas and domestically, lead the charge of that opportunity in our public services and ensure that our pro-innovation approach enables the benefits of this technology to be captured sooner across the economy.

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

Was my right hon. Friend reassured by the comments made by Nick Clegg this morning, while representing Meta, that AI at present is not capable of individual thought as such, but goes through a massive trawl very quickly of existing data?

[Chloe Smith]

We are drawing on the benefit of a range of experts in our work. In particular, I thank Ian Hogarth and those who have stepped up to form our Foundation Models Taskforce, which is helping us by looking extremely closely at the safety requirements for those models at the very frontier. There will be more updates on that work as time goes on.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State will surely have read the many reports of bad actors using AI technology to create voice clones and, ultimately, scam victims out of money over the phone. For as little as 76p a month, a subscription to one of those websites can be yours, Mr Speaker. Computer security company McAfee recently found that one in four people had experienced a voice scam or knew someone who had. What exactly is the Secretary of State doing right now to prevent and, ultimately, protect people from those voice scams and deepfakes?

[Chloe Smith]

The shadow Minister raises a good point, which we should all examine. We have the correct answers, through the approach we have set out in our White Paper using our world-class regulators, the approach we are working on in this House and the other place on the Online Safety Bill, and existing crimes and offences. Right now, my officials are working with Ofcom to ensure it is ready for the duties that will come to it through the Online Safety Bill, and that it has the tools to ensure that scams, fraud and other offences are properly addressed.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Scottish National party spokesperson.

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

The Secretary of State said that my colleagues had made thoughtful points about human rights concerns, control of personal data and public trust, but we need actual action and commitment from the Government. In contrast, the EU is moving to become the first regulator in the world to legislate for a specific AI Act, to ensure that AI works for people as well as business and Government. Will she finally commit to the UK following suit and legislating for AI, to ensure that the UK does not become a haven for the worst possible applications of what should be beneficial technology?

[Chloe Smith]

The hon. Gentleman is telling the wrong story. The UK Government are acting comprehensively. The framework we set out in our White Paper applies across the UK. The work we are setting out with our global summit leads the way internationally. That approach is proportionate and flexible, and has been welcomed by business across the UK. In addition, the principles I have already named and the work of my colleagues across Government on human rights and other aspects ensure that our citizens can enjoy the safe and responsible use of this technology. I look forward to working with anyone in this House who has a thoughtful approach to take to that.

[Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)]

2. What recent assessment she has made of the effectiveness of UK Research and Innovation funding for decarbon-isation technologies.

--- Later in debate ---

[Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)]

12. What her planned timescale is for negotiating the UK’s association to Horizon Europe.

[The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Chloe Smith)]

We are moving forward with discussions on the UK’s involvement in Horizon Europe, and we hope they will be successful. Association is our preference. The talks are continuing constructively, but we have not yet agreed a deal. We want to reach a resolution as quickly as possible to give the industry certainty. We have also set out our bold alternative, Pioneer, which we are ready to implement if necessary.

[Janet Daby]

Owing to the Government’s delay in associating with Horizon Europe, the UK has lost out on “hosting” nearly 400 high-end European Research Council grants. Furthermore, nearly 50 grant winners have left the country altogether. Scientists including Brian Cox and Sir Paul Nurse are warning that the Government’s failure to act is damaging Britain’s science base. Is the Secretary of State concerned about these failings?

[Chloe Smith]

Unfortunately it is the European Union that has delayed for more than two years, and that has caused serious and lasting damage to the UK’s participation. What we need to do is ensure that we can get the right deal for UK researchers, UK businesses and UK taxpayers. That that is what we are working to do, and we are confident that the talks are proceeding constructively. It is much more important to get the right deal than to get a fast deal.

[Gerald Jones]

The Government made a manifesto promise to associate with Horizon Europe, but it is now 132 weeks since they took our country out of the world’s biggest science fund. It is shocking but not surprising that they have broken yet another promise. Government inaction has seriously damaged our international science pedigree. How much longer will our world-leading scientists, researchers and universities—who have suffered so much already—be forced to wait because this Government cannot keep their promises?

[Chloe Smith]

We have continued to support the sector with more than £1.5 billion of the Horizon guarantee. We have done that to ensure that there is no loss of funding for the UK science sector. I think it far more important to speak directly to researchers, businesses and taxpayers about our commitment to getting the right deal than to engage in party politics here.

[Wera Hobhouse]

We in Bath have two fantastic universities, the University of Bath and Bath Spa University. Their leaders continue to worry about losing talent from Europe, and the Government have worsened the position by proposing a 66% increase in visa fees. Will the Secretary of State explain what that increase will mean for UK science, and how it accords with the Government’s stated ambition to bring the best and brightest to this country?

[Chloe Smith]

We continue to run a range of successful talent programmes that bring the best and the brightest to universities and indeed to those in the hon. Lady’s constituency. I welcome her representing them here today. The point is that we have to get the right deal on Horizon, as I have laid out, and we also have to strike a balance with the needs of policy across Government. That is what she has heard from me and other Ministers at this Dispatch Box, and that is how we will ensure that we get the right deal for Britain, both in terms of talent and of science programmes.

[Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is very much in Europe’s interests for us to be part of the Horizon programme, because we have some of the strongest academic institutions in Europe, and in a way it undermines the science base of Europe if we are not in there? Does she also recognise that, although there was great enthusiasm at the recent meeting of the UK-EU Parliamentary Partnership Assembly for us to join again, there was also a feeling that it could surely be done a little more quickly?

[Chloe Smith]

I welcome my right hon. and learned Friend’s insight into this issue. As I have already said, we are working consistently and steadily to get the right deal for UK science, by which we mean British researchers as well as taxpayers and businesses. That is what we are doing; the talks are proceeding and I look forward to the House being able to have an update very soon.

[Saqib Bhatti (Meriden) (Con)]

I would like to put on record my respect for the Secretary of State and her excellent stewardship of her portfolio.

I would like us to join Horizon Europe, but is it not right that we should get the right deal for our UK scientists, our UK businesses and our UK taxpayers, and that any commentary before a deal is done will only undermine our science industry and not be helpful in the slightest?

[Chloe Smith]

That is exactly right, and it is right for two reasons. The first is that billions of pounds of taxpayers’ money are at stake and we need to be responsible stewards of that money. That is why we are focused on getting the right deal. The second point is that my Department exists to forward and further the frontier of science in this country and to make sure that we stay a science and technology superpower. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We are in the middle of answers to a question. I call Vicky Ford.

[Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)]

Teledyne e2v is the world leader in space imaging. It provides the eyes to NASA, the European space programme and Copernicus. Can my great and right hon. Friend make sure that our conversations about Horizon also include Copernicus? Otherwise, the EU is going to be building Earth observation satellites that cannot see the Earth.

[Chloe Smith]

I welcome my right hon. Friend’s interest in this area, and she is absolutely right to say that we have enormous opportunity in our space sector, across a range of aspects. I know that the Minister for Science, Research and Innovation, my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman), would like to discuss her constituency interest further with her. I can also assure the House that there will be further updates coming soon on the UK Government’s space strategy.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

In Vilnius, the Prime Minister had the chance to conclude a deal allowing our scientists to participate in the world’s biggest international science programme, driving innovation and sustainable growth. He did not take it, again, so the Horizon saga drags on, month after month, year after year. Are we in or are we out? The Science Minister is not in the negotiations, and the chief scientist is not in the negotiations. It is all about the Prime Minister. Does the Secretary of State understand that while the Prime Minister is dithering, our science base is withering?

[Chloe Smith]

Today is quite possibly my last opportunity at the Dispatch Box. I first served from these Government Benches in May 2010, and the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) first shadowed me 10 years ago. I know that she has a very fine mind and is a dedicated public servant. However, on this she is wrong. Labour Front Benchers may not know from one day to the next what their policy is, but we have been consistent on this point and we are working hard to get the correct deal for UK taxpayers and UK science.

[Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con)]

T1. If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Chloe Smith)]

Since I last updated the House, my right hon. Friend the Minister for Data and Digital Infrastructure has announced £380 million of funding to bring the fastest internet speeds to some of our most rural communities. The Government’s Office for Life Sciences has agreed a landmark deal with BioNTech that will see up to 10,000 cancer patients benefit from potentially life-saving treatment. Today, my Department has launched a call for evidence on engineering biology.

[Theresa Villiers]

What action are the Government taking to deliver regulatory reform of business investment in the biosciences sector, so that it can play its part in boosting economic growth and delivering great job opportunities for people across the country?

[Chloe Smith]

I welcome my right hon. Friend’s expertise in this area, and I thank the team that works with me on this subject, including my hon. Friend the Minister for Science, Research and Innovation, who has been central in leading how we will reform our regulatory landscape on life sciences. I point my right hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet (Theresa Villiers) to the Chancellor’s announcements, both at the Budget and still to come, on how we will continue to support our life sciences and biosciences sectors, which are essential to the UK economy.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Secretary of State.

--- Later in debate ---

[Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP)]

T4. The Royal Society’s 2021 visa costs analysis shows that researchers entering the UK via the global talent scheme had to pay six times more than they would have paid under similar international science schemes. Does the Minister acknowledge the cost of Brexit in our failure to attract world-leading researchers and skilled workers?

[Chloe Smith]

The hon. Gentleman is on his own mission. He fails to see the strength of the UK science and technology sector, and he fails to see that it will be better for Scotland’s businesses, scientists and citizens to continue to be part of that thriving sector. That is what we are doing in making sure the United Kingdom is a science and technology superpower.

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

T3. Indeed, we have world-class universities in the west midlands. What plans does my right hon. Friend have to support regional innovation clusters?

Oral Answers to Questions

Chloe Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 14th June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

4. Whether she plans to introduce legislative proposals on regulating artificial intelligence.

[The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Chloe Smith)]

Our White Paper was clear that we will regulate AI through a flexible framework underpinned by five important principles. That proportionate and adaptable approach has been welcomed by British business and will include new risk monitoring functions to ensure that the UK leads the world in AI safety, as well as anticipating the introduction of a statutory duty on regulators in time. We would welcome hon. Members’ views on that consultation.

[Alan Brown]

In terms of risk, I am sure that the Minister will be concerned that Snapchat’s My AI chatbot recently encouraged a journalist who was posing as a 13-year-old girl to meet up with a 35-year-old man, suggesting ways to hide the meeting from parents, gave tips on hiding bruises from social workers and gave sex tips to a supposedly 13-year-old boy who was proposing to meet an older woman. What specifically are the Government doing to beef up online safety regulation to protect children from the emerging risk of AI?

[Chloe Smith]

I am concerned to hear the examples that the hon. Member gives. That is exactly why this House and the other place have spent considerable time going over the provisions in the Online Safety Bill, which goes to the heart of the issues that he raises and includes AI in its scope.

[Sir Jeremy Wright (Kenilworth and Southam) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that when it comes to AI regulation, two things are important? The first is that there is a significant international dimension, and I congratulate her and the Prime Minister on what they have already achieved in setting out this country’s stall to be a global leader in AI regulation. Secondly, does she agree that the lesson to be learned from the Online Safety Bill, which she mentioned, is that we must regulate swiftly, rather than waiting for the technology to develop and attempting to retrofit the regulation on to the technology?

[Chloe Smith]

I welcome my right hon. and learned Friend’s contribution—he knows a great deal about these matters. First, I acknowledge his welcome for the approach we will be taking internationally. It is exactly right that the UK can and should lead in this space, as the Prime Minister has set out, and that is what we will do with our global summit on AI safety. Secondly, on his point about the Online Safety Bill, I can understand his argument, but in this context I would draw the House’s attention to the distinction between regulation and legislation. We intend to use our existing and established regulators to make sure that we have a flexible and adaptable approach to AI.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

The rapid growth of AI has the potential to revolutionise the economy and our public services, but with no industrial strategy to speak of and their White Paper already out of date, this Government are behind the curve and risk leaving our workforces behind as AI becomes more prevalent. Exactly what is the Secretary of State doing to ensure that nobody is left behind, and that workers are trained in the digital skills needed to gain high-quality jobs that harness AI’s potential and opportunities?

[Chloe Smith]

I think the hon. Lady is on the wrong track here. I must say that I have not seen any substance to Labour’s approach in this field either, which perhaps will not come as a surprise—no doubt it will be covered more in 10 minutes’ time. What I would say is that we are taking the approach of ensuring that we do have the skills of the future: for example, we are investing £30 million in conversion courses to enable people from disadvantaged backgrounds to come into AI, so that they can be part of the technologies of the future, and there is a great deal more besides.

[Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP)]

5. What assessment she has made of the potential impact of the UK's departure from the EU on the science and technology sector.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD)]

T2. If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Chloe Smith)]

I have been playing an active part in London Tech Week talking to Britain’s boldest businesses. We have launched our £1 billion strategy to support our semiconductor sector. We have launched our cutting-edge life sciences sector package. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness (Simon Fell) who we recently appointed as our rural connectivity champion. May I also update the House in relation to our international leadership that I have been chairing the global forum on technology at the OECD?

[Sarah Olney]

Copyright protections are fundamental to the success of the UK’s world-leading creative industries. However, creatives are routinely seeing their content being used to train artificial intelligence platforms without giving their permission and without receiving payment. Does the Secretary of State believe that AI developers’ ingestion of creative content that is protected by copyright without obtaining a licence is infringement under UK law?

[Chloe Smith]

The hon. Lady raises an important matter, on which my Department and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport are working closely together. Can I draw her attention to information that I know my right hon. and learned Friend the Culture Secretary will be bringing forward shortly? I reassure the hon. Lady that intellectual property is at the heart of our approach to support the creative industries in this country.

[John Penrose (Weston-super-Mare) (Con)]

T7. The data Bill’s smart data clauses give us a chance to duplicate Britain’s global lead in open banking in other sectors of the economy, too, but developers cannot start work until they know which sectors will be enabled and in what order. Will my right hon. Friend release an implementation timetable immediately, showing which industries will introduce what and when, to unlock the tidal wave of investment that is waiting to get started and so that we do not get leapfrogged by international rivals?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does the Secretary of State agree with the Prime Minister that her AI White Paper is now defunct? Also, the data Bill does not even mention AI. The Online Safety Bill is hardly an advert for speedy action and the semiconductor strategy was slammed by an expert as “quite frankly flaccid”. Does she accept that to show international leadership, the Government need to get their act together at home?

[Chloe Smith]

As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister set out this week at London Tech Week, we will be leading at home and overseas and leading change in our public services. That is the right approach. It is pro-innovation. We will capture those benefits for British businesses and British citizens, and I think that the Opposition could do an awful lot better than what they have just presented.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Chair of the Select Committee.

[Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con)]

On 30 December 2020, during the pandemic, the then Prime Minister met the vice-chancellor of the University of Oxford and promised £150 million in funding for the university’s pandemic sciences institute. In evidence to the Science, Innovation and Technology Committee this morning, the institute’s director Sir Peter Horby said that not a penny of that money has been received. Will the Secretary of State meet me to see how we can unblock that so that this vital work continues?

[Chloe Smith]

Yes, I would be happy to meet the Chair of the Select Committee.

[Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op)]

T3. This London Tech Week, I pay tribute to King’s Maths School in my constituency, which provides tutoring for 16 to 19-year-olds. The Government promised £300 million for mathematical research in 2020, but now, despite that, they are abandoning the commitment. When does the Minister expect Britain to stay competitive and when can the Government guarantee that funding?

Oral Answers to Questions

Chloe Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 25th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Kemi Badenoch]

Both sides of the House can agree that more support and more work is needed on this issue. Childcare is one of the reasons why women leave the workplace, and we are doing everything we can to support women to have appropriate childcare arrangements.

[Chloe Smith (Norwich North) (Con)]

5. What recent progress she has made in implementing the British Sign Language Act 2022.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mims Davies)]

I thank my right hon. Friend for her important work in delivering the Act. Work continues across Government to ensure that the Departments named in the schedule to the Act are aware of their reporting duty. They will report on their use of BSL in public communications at the end of the first reporting period on 28 June.

[Chloe Smith]

I welcome that update. Will the advisory board be on track ahead of that first statutory reporting date? When will the statutory guidance be commenced? Furthermore, will my hon. Friend commit to the Government’s major public broadcasts being fully accessible?

[Mims Davies]

My right hon. Friend will be pleased to know that the first meeting of the Departments driving the Act is due to take place in mid-February. It is vital that the 20 Departments listed in the schedule deliver the commitments. The advisory board will be the first dual-language board advising His Majesty’s Government, which demonstrates our commitment to the deaf community. It will form the vital guidance on the Act, and it will rightly look at BSL for major public broadcasts, which many of our constituents want to see and have asked for.

Oral Answers to Questions

Chloe Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 13th July 2022 Commons Chamber

[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

1. What discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on the gender pension gap.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chloe Smith)]

The Government are committed to addressing the gender pension gap. Automatic enrolment and the new state pension are already enabling more women to build up retirement provision. Recognising that this issue derives primarily from differences in work and pay, we continue to work across Government with employers and partners to address inequalities relating to the labour market.

[David Linden]

My constituents in Swinton regularly tell me that the gender pensions gap is exacerbated as a result of a lack of ambition on the part of the Government regarding auto-enrolment. Will the Minister meet me to hear those concerns from constituents in Swinton, and see how we can change that to ensure we close the gender pensions gap?

[Chloe Smith]

I am sure that the Pensions Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman), would be happy to have a further conversation on that. Automatic enrolment is important. It has made progress, but there will be more to do.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Chair of the Women and Equalities Committee.

[Chloe Smith]

I will ask my colleague the employment Minister to write to my right hon. Friend to ensure she has a full update, and I touch briefly on an example such as mandatory pay gap reporting, which is helping to drive progress.

[Dame Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

2. What steps the Government are taking to tackle sexual harassment against women in the military.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

5. What steps she is taking with Cabinet colleagues to help support female entrepreneurs.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chloe Smith)]

We set up a taskforce on women-led high growth enterprise, which met for the first time this month. It will use its convening power to influence high growth investors and the business community, and to raise aspiration of the next generation of female entrepreneurs right across the country.

[Dame Caroline Dinenage]

I thank the Minister for that answer, but the fact is that if women were starting and scaling businesses at the same rate as men it would add a staggering £250 billion to the UK economy. We need to turbocharge the investment and support we are giving to female entrepreneurship. What thought has been given to pivoting some of the existing financial packages, such as the enterprise investment scheme, to better support women-led enterprises?

[Chloe Smith]

The enterprise investment scheme has specific objectives. It is designed to encourage investment in higher risk early stage companies. However, the Government are committed to supporting women entrepreneurs in a range of ways, as highlighted by the implementation of recommendations from the Rose review. I would be happy to ask a colleague of mine to discuss the issue further with my right hon. Friend.

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

The hon. Member for Gosport (Dame Caroline Dinenage) rightly points out some problems with the Government’s schemes, but the Minister, who works within the Department for Work and Pensions, should know that the way that childcare functions within universal credit does not help women become entrepreneurs either. What conversations has she had with the other Ministers in that Department and civil servants on reform to childcare?

[Chloe Smith]

The Government are committed to a range of ways to help families—not just women, but parents—with childcare. There is a set of messages we could let go out from this exchange today, which includes encouraging families to take up the childcare options that are available. There will be more that we can do to continue to encourage people to take the work that is right for them and to support them as they do so.

[Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)]

6. What steps the Government are taking to support women in the workplace.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chloe Smith)]

Continuing the previous theme, we are committed to helping women in every workplace and we have announced new initiatives to do that. For example, we have called on all employers to provide salary information in job adverts. As the Minister for Women and Equalities, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) has already articulated, we are helping women to return to STEM roles where their talents are most needed, and, as already touched on, a new taskforce will increase the number of women-led high growth businesses.

[Joanna Cherry]

I thank the Minister for her answer. Will she join me in welcoming the unequivocal judgment of the employment appeal tribunal and the employment tribunal in the case of Maya Forstater v. the Centre for Global Development, to the effect that gender-critical beliefs are protected under the Equality Act 2010 and that women, and indeed men, must not be discriminated against, harassed or victimised for either holding those beliefs or stating them? Does she agree with me that all employers will require to review their workplace practices in human resources and their equality, diversity and inclusion policies to ensure that they comply with the law as stated in that judgment? Can she tell me what steps she will take to ensure that that happens?

[Chloe Smith]

I thank the hon. and learned Lady for that question. She is, as we all know, very thoughtful on these issues and looks very carefully at the important consequences of the issues at hand. The rulings in that case and others reflect the important balances that the Equality Act already provides for. I think the key point to make in response to her is that we agree that we must protect free speech and allow open discussion. It is, of course, the responsibility of all employers to ensure that they comply with the law as set out in legislation, such as the Equality Act 2010, and interpreted by the courts.

[Dame Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con)]

In March, the UK Government ratified the International Labour Organisation convention outlawing violence and harassment in the workplace, something that still disproportionately affects women at work. In ratifying that convention, the UK Government need to have in place a programme of work to prevent and enforce the law around those issues. Will the Minister outline how the Government will make sure that they live up to the important provisions in that convention?

[Chloe Smith]

My right hon. Friend, as always, makes vital points and I am very pleased that she does. I will ask the Minister for Women and Equalities to write to her with a fuller update so that she can be assured of the Government’s commitment to these vital matters.

[Sarah Atherton (Wrexham) (Con)]

7. What discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Defence on tackling gender inequalities in the armed forces.

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[Julian Sturdy]

Sadly, Lib Dem-run City of York Council is continuing with its restrictions, which have an impact on blue badge holders, and is dodging decisions on city centre parking. This is causing a huge disadvantage to rural communities in my constituency who have poor transport links. Does the Minister agree that city centres should be accessible to all?

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chloe Smith)]

Yes, passionately, and the Equality Act 2010 sets out ways in which local authorities should ensure that. I will make sure that departmental colleagues know of my hon. Friend’s concerns.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister.

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[Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab)]

T3.   E-scooters can be difficult for people with sight loss to identify and avoid, especially when they are ridden illegally on a pavement, because they operate quietly. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact of the illegal and unsafe use of e-scooters on people with a visual impairment?

[Chloe Smith]

I will be meeting the Department for Transport’s disability champion this very afternoon, and I will take that question to discuss with her.

[Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con)]

T7. Will my right hon. Friend congratulate my constituent, the jewellery designer Monica Vinader, whose roots are in North Norfolk and whose head office is on the Holkham estate, on winning the 2022 Queen’s award for enterprise and sustainable development? Does she agree how wonderful it is to see women in business promoting ethical and sustainable business practices around the country?

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[Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD)]

T5. Given that almost a third of kinship carers have a disability or a chronic condition, and a given that a child in kinship care is twice as likely to be black as white, it is clear that kinship care is an equalities issue. Will the Minister meet me to discuss my Kinship Care Bill, and how we can help the kinship carers who step up to support a child in crisis?

[Chloe Smith]

Yes. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I want to hear the question answered. [Interruption.] I am sorry; I could not hear it. Please, Minister, try again.

[Chloe Smith]

I apologise for the confusion, Mr Speaker. The answer to the hon. Lady’s question is yes: I am happy to do that.

[Mr Speaker]

Excellent. Thank you.

Before we come to Prime Minister’s questions, I should point out that a British Sign Language interpretation of proceedings is available to watch on parliamentlive.tv.

Oral Answers to Questions

Chloe Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 8th June 2022 Commons Chamber

[Ian Levy (Blyth Valley) (Con)]

11. What steps the Government are taking to improve public knowledge and awareness of sign language.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chloe Smith)]

The Government were delighted to support the private Member’s Bill to recognise British Sign Language as a language of Great Britain. We will improve public knowledge and awareness of BSL, including through guidance that will help to promote and facilitate the use of the language, and much more.

[Ian Levy]

I welcome the introduction of the British Sign Language Act 2022, recognising BSL as an official language in England, Scotland and Wales. However, families in Blyth Valley still feel discriminated against in such areas as free sign language classes and educational opportunities for deaf children in schools. Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is still much more to be done to improve the lives of people in our communities?

[Chloe Smith]

We are passionate about improving opportunities for deaf people who use BSL and increasing general public understanding of deaf people’s language and culture. Linguistic exclusion is a problem and can affect education, jobs and more.

[Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con)]

T1. If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities.

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[Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD)]

T5. This week is Carers Week, and I hope the Minister will agree that unpaid carers make an invaluable contribution to our society but are often unseen. Will she commit to making being an unpaid carer a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010, as Carers UK has called for?

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chloe Smith)]

I cannot give that commitment, but I look forward to joining the hon. Lady and others at the reception this afternoon with Carers UK, because there are many important issues regarding how we can support unpaid carers.

[Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab)]

T6. The cost of a full-time nursery place for children under two has risen by 16% in the past five years, and for the first time in decades, the number of women leaving the workforce has increased. Does the Minister for Women and Equalities think that this Government’s failed approach to childcare, which is pricing some women out of work and others out of parenthood, is remotely acceptable? What recommendations is she making to the Treasury and the Department for Education to sort out the problem?

Oral Answers to Questions

Chloe Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 30th March 2022 Commons Chamber

[Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)]

9. What discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on energy costs for disabled people.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chloe Smith)]

The Treasury recently announced £9.1 billion of support for energy customers, including a bill rebate, a council tax reduction and continuing support for the most vulnerable households. Furthermore, a doubling of the household support fund was announced in the spring statement, which is again getting help to where it is needed most.

[Wera Hobhouse]

On behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I commend the hon. Member for Bridgend (Dr Wallis) for his bravery in speaking out. We wish him all the best. I think I speak for everyone in the Chamber when I say that we are here to support him.

Disability charities estimate that the number of disabled people in fuel poverty could double this year. A constituent recently told me, “I stay in bed to keep warm and to keep up with my energy costs. I skip meals to cope with my grocery costs.” Will the Government and the Minister support our call to reinstate the £1,000 universal credit uplift and to keep in line—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I call the Minister. Come on, this is far too long.

[Chloe Smith]

I assure the hon. Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse) that I regularly meet many disabled people and disability organisations. I am aware of this issue and the natural anxiety about rising costs felt by many who live on a fixed income. That is why the Government are already acting in the way I set out.

[Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)]

10. If she will undertake an equalities impact assessment of HM Prison and Probation Service’s equality assessment for fitness testing.

Elections Bill (Second sitting)

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Election Finance and Policy

Chloe Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 15th September 2021 Written Statements

[The Minister for the Constitution and Devolution (Chloe Smith)]

This Government are committed to ensuring our democracy is secure, fair, modern and transparent and through the changes being brought in by the Elections Bill, we are updating our electoral systems to ensure they are kept up to date for our age.

The Elections Bill will progress this week to Committee stage in the House of Commons, and to aid hon. Members in their consideration of the Bill, I am today publishing two documents relating to measures in the Elections Bill: specifically an illustrative Electoral Commission strategy and policy statement; and the Government’s response to the Committee on Standards in Public Life (CSPL) report into regulating election finance.

Electoral Commission strategy and policy statement

As I set out in my statement to the House on 17 June, the Elections Bill provides for the introduction of a strategy and policy statement, which will set out guidance and principles to which the Electoral Commission must have regard in exercising its functions. I committed to publish an illustrative example of this statement to aid parliamentarians’ understanding of this measure, and I have today placed a copy of this in the Libraries of both Houses. The Government will continue to engage with interested parties, including the Parliamentary Parties Panel, on this illustrative statement.

It is important to note that this is an illustrative example of the strategy and policy statement—the Bill does not include the text of the statement, and instead makes provision for the statement to be introduced in secondary legislation. Following Royal Assent, a draft statement will be subject to a statutory consultation with the stakeholders listed in the Bill before the approval of Parliament is sought.

To further support Parliament’s scrutiny of the Bill, on 7 September I also made a statement to the House on the role of the Speaker’s Committee in holding the Electoral Commission to account, and placed an infographic outlining the Commission’s existing accountability framework in the Libraries of Both Houses.

The Government response to the Committee on Standards in Public Life (CSPL) report on regulating election finance

We have today published the Government’s response to the CSPL report on regulating election finance. The Government welcome the report published in July by the CSPL, and agree with the key principles of fairness, transparency and integrity which have guided its work. Indeed, our existing regulatory framework is already based upon these principles.

It is, of course, important that the rules around electoral finance are kept under review and updated as necessary. As I set out in my statement to the House on 15 June, the Elections Bill is making important reforms to the regulatory framework to support public confidence in the integrity of our electoral system, by strengthening and updating political finance and campaigning regulation; these include reforms that relate directly to recommendations made in the CSPL report.

Electoral law is complex and it is important that any changes are made with careful consideration. Therefore, the Government intend to look at all the recommendations in the CSPL report alongside other recommendations set out in similar reports, including the forthcoming reports from the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee into the work of the Electoral Commission and the Elections Bill, as part of further work examining the regulatory framework for elections, beyond the Elections Bill.

We are the stewards of a fantastic democratic heritage which must be kept up to date to protect our democracy and maintain public confidence in our electoral system.

The associated documents have been deposited in the Libraries of both Houses.

[HCWS290]

Elections Bill (First sitting)

Chloe Smith Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 15th September 2021 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

Thank you. Minister, would you like to ask the first question?

[The Minister for the Constitution and Devolution (Chloe Smith)]

Q I would. First, may I welcome our witnesses? It is an absolute pleasure to have you here. You begin our day with the highest quality.

Richard, you highlighted in your judgment on Tower Hamlets and elsewhere how we see interlocking types of fraud that all together create broad criminality. Would you be able to talk us through the extent of that?

Richard Mawrey: Tower Hamlets was a particularly bad example. There, you had a political culture where winning and retaining power was everything. If there were rules, they were to be, at best, circumvented and, at worst, broken. Not only was there electoral fraud in the sense of false votes—almost all postal votes—but the system developed so there was misuse of public funds, which I later decided was bribery, largely as a result of Lord Pickles’ initiative to employ a top firm of accountants to investigate the doings of the council, from which it appeared that large sums of money had been diverted for political purposes.

In Tower Hamlets, the trickiest thing of all was manipulation of voters by religious means. That operated within one community: members of the Bangladeshi community, at the instance of the Mayor and his cronies, were being induced by their religious leaders to back one lot of Muslin politicians against another lot of Muslim politicians. It was not, as you might expect, Muslims versus the rest. They were saying, “If you are a good Muslim, you will vote for Lutfur Rahman and his chums. If you are not and you vote for someone else, whether Muslim or non-Muslim, you are beyond the religious pale.” Clearly, that was unacceptable, therefore I made my findings of undue religious influence.

There were also other things, such as the provision in the Representation of the People Act 1983 whereby you cannot make false statements about the personal characters of the other candidates. You may remember the case of Phil Woolas up in the Manchester area. If you go beyond that limit and go public saying, basically, that your principal opponent is a racist who supports racists organisations, when it is totally untrue, that is, again, unacceptable.

You have virtually the whole catalogue of offences laid down by the 1983 Act; they were almost ticking the boxes, one by one, as they did it. That is what happens when you have a political culture that gets corrupted, in all senses, into the belief that, “The rules don’t apply to us. We do what we want in order to get the results.” That is the danger that one perceives. Of course, Tower Hamlets was an extreme case.

The other cases that I tried were largely cases of straightforward voter fraud using postal votes—misuse of the actual votes themselves: stealing them, altering them, and that sort of thing—or putting on the register people who had no right to be there, either because they lived somewhere else or because they did not exist at all. Those are the problems that I have seen, although I must emphasise that my experience is entirely with local authorities, naturally, because parliamentary elections are tried by proper judges, so to speak.

However—I think that Lord Pickles will agree with me here—local authority elections are the easiest to manipulate. You have relatively small electorates, a relatively small geographical area, and communities, although not necessarily racial or religious communities, that can operate as a sort of support mechanism in any frauds that you are perpetrating. I do not expect a large amount of fraud in parliamentary elections, referendums, or anything like that, but it is a serious problem in local elections. I do not think that Lord Pickles would disagree with that.

[Chloe Smith]

Q Across a selection of your cases—Tower Hamlets, Birmingham, and Slough—we see the range of corrupt practices, also known as crimes or elections fraud, including, as you say, postal voting practices, proxy voting practices and personation, notably, in Slough.

Richard Mawrey: Not so much proxy. Proxy votes are very rare, and proxy fraud is very rare. It is mostly personation, of both kinds: putting the wrong people on the register—what the Australians call “roll stuffing”—and misusing genuine votes for genuine people by diverting them, altering them, or, in some cases, simply destroying them.

[Chloe Smith]

Q Thank you. Two questions, if I may: would you agree that, where one of those avenues may be cut off by the law, criminals might turn to others? Criminals, by nature, are able to use a range of techniques, and, naturally, wish to do so. Secondly, may I ask for your assessment of who the victims of such crimes are? Where does the harm fall?

Richard Mawrey: I think the harm falls on the community as a whole if you have someone who is elected as a councillor, let us say, but has no right to be because the votes cast on their behalf are false. Take Birmingham, for example: in the two wards that I tried—although it was actually fairly common in all the wards with a substantial Muslim population—approximately half of the votes cast for the winning candidates were false. That is serious. The winning candidates got between 3,000 and 4,000 votes each. It was three per ward, so they got that, and their rivals got 200 or 300 below.

Of those 3,000-odd votes, somewhere between 1,500 and 2,000 were completely bogus. They were votes that had been harvested in various ways—not, funnily enough, by putting bogus people on the register. They had stolen voting papers. They had applied for votes to be sent to the wrong address. They had gone down streets collecting the voting papers from houses in multiple occupation—they would get themselves in and there was a huge pile of voting papers. They knew they would be there because they had applied, without the knowledge of the voters, for those votes to be postal votes. They went in, there was a pile of postal votes and the inhabitants of the block did not know. They collected the lot and filled them in.

If any of the people living in those houses went to vote in person, they were told, “Oh no, you voted by post,” much to their annoyance, as you might imagine. I had witnesses called before me who said, “I went down to the polling station expecting to vote, but they said, ‘I’m sorry, Mr Jones, but you’ve already voted.’” He said, “No, I haven’t,” and they said, “Oh yes, you’re marked: we’ve got your ballot paper.” So they, of course, are the losers.

The other thing is that if you have a culture of political corruption, it seeps into all other life. I think of the money in Tower Hamlets that could have been spent for the benefit of Tower Hamlets but that was actually being spent on providing, in effect, free meals for voters—which is what they were doing, among other things—and subsidising organisations that had not asked for a subsidy. Tower Hamlets is not a borough that has money to spare or to throw around, and I felt that the people who had lost out—I said this in my judgment—were what I might call the rank-and-file members of the Bangladeshi community that they were claiming to represent. They were the losers. If they were looking at it in any sort of tribal way, they were doing down their own kind—the people they were claiming were their power base. That is not tolerable.

[Chloe Smith]

Q Eric, you then had the opportunity to follow up on Richard’s work and to say what ought to be done about it. Is it still your view that something ought to be done about all of those things?

Lord Pickles: Yes. In terms of vulnerability, there might be the odd seat in the House that is vulnerable, but this is about local government. I think it would be a big mistake to say that this is just about voting, democracy and elections. It is actually about power and money. A place like Tower Hamlets has a budget of £1 billion. Many of the large cities have budgets of large sums of money. Even a small district council has considerable ability to dispose of assets and to make appointments.

The reason I put commissioners in Tower Hamlets was, like many things, based on quite a small thing. I looked at the small grants that were available to many organisations, some of which could be distributed by councillors. They were there to relieve poverty. I had a map that showed me where the grants had been distributed and another map that showed me where the deprivation was, and there was no relationship between the two. Then, I looked at the number of decisions that had been overturned by councillors and the number of decisions they had granted without a business plan. It was on that basis that we decided to put the thing through.

I was asked to look at it and we started taking evidence on the types of fraud. I have been involved in politics for a long time and have seen most things on the street, but I was quite shocked by some of the frauds that were being committed. Richard will be able to tell you about warehousing. There was a warehouse in Birmingham, I think, where they were literally changing the ballot papers on an almost commercial basis. There were things like carousel fraud, where a ballot is palmed—a fresh ballot is taken out, filled in and given to another person and it is palmed—as a way of controlling the election; landlords insisting on seeing a photograph of their ballot being completed; and people suddenly finding out that their landlord has registered six or seven people at their house just before an election, only for their names to disappear afterwards.

It is really important to understand that that is not endemic within the system; it is an example of how vulnerable the system is. If Tower Hamlets represents the future, we have to ensure that that future is terminated. We probably will not be burgled, but we lock our houses. The measures in the Bill are moderate and reasonable, and they ensure at least that we will not find some of our large cities run by kleptocrats—this is about rewarding friends; it is not necessarily about politics. Sorry, I went on a bit there.

Richard Mawrey: Could I just come in here on what Lord Pickles has said? The Bill addresses something that was a real problem in Tower Hamlets: the registration of political parties. The Electoral Commission blithely signed off Tower Hamlets First as a party, but it was a joke. It had no premises, and it had—as I discovered to my amazement by asking questions—no bank account. I said to Lutfur Rahman, “If I want to give a donation to your party, do I have to come along with an envelope of used non-consecutive fifties?” Obviously, he was dying to say yes, but that would clearly have been the wrong answer. You can see the levels to which it has come. If anyone can just say, “I am a political party,” and give themselves a name, you lay yourself wide open, particularly once they are registered and can say, “I am a registered political party and have all the rights of a registered political party.”

Lord Pickles: The system is vulnerable. To misquote John Major, it is about old maids cycling to evensong and drinking warm beer, and in most places, that rather twee, gentle system kind of works. When I was a councillor, in gentle rural villages in my own wards, it was fine, but where there is money, we have to protect the integrity of the ballot and of governance.

[Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab)]

Q Richard, can I start with you and the Tower Hamlets examples that you have already outlined? Thank you for that. You said that in Tower Hamlets there was a wide range of different types of electoral fraud that was used to try to manipulate. I was particularly struck by what you said about public funds being diverted for political advantage. Does anything in the Bill prevent public funds being diverted for political influence?

Richard Mawrey: The Bill, as I read it, does not make any particular changes to the laws relating to bribery. The laws relating to bribery, in actual terms under the 1983 Act, are quite clear. The problem is that bribery was a common law offence, and it then became a statutory defence under the Victorians. Before the secret ballot, the Victorians had a system whereby you voted in public and everyone knew how you voted. Rich candidates would simply put money in the hands of the electors, who would not be very large in number, to pay them to go and vote. That was the principal thing that led to both the secret ballot and the introduction of electoral courts in the 1860s.

We have moved on from that now. Very few candidates have the sort of money that allows them to put fivers in people’s pockets, so to speak, but they do control public money. The answer is not necessarily electoral law, but better control, particularly in local authorities, of local authority finance. It is better auditing and more independent scrutiny. The law is clear; it is policing it that is the problem. You don’t need to change the law; you need to change the policing of it. Would you agree?

Lord Pickles: Yes, I think I almost certainly would agree. When it starts to go wrong, it is a terrible thing. I do not think I am betraying confidences, because I am sure they would be happy for me to say this, but the two Labour Members of Parliament within the borough came to see me and laid out all these various things, and said that basically the Electoral Commission was ignoring them, that the police were ignoring them, but there was something deeply wrong within the administration, and they urged me to take action.

Obviously, a Secretary of State can only go in on a reasonable basis, and I went in on a reasonable basis because it seemed to me that the way in which grants were being delineated for every small thing was entirely wrong, entirely arbitrary and not based on fact. So the point is that this Bill is about just tightening up and trying to make the system reasonably proof in terms of personation and various other things. It is not going to cure corruption and it is not going to stop bad people being elected; it just reduces the chances of a community being abused.

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[Cat Smith]

Q If I may follow up on that, my question to you, Gareth, was going to be slightly different. It is on the policing of electoral fraud, particularly in relation to overseas voters. With regard to overseas voters making political donations that are unlawful, or voter fraud, what powers does the UK have to detect infringements and prosecute?

Assistant Chief Constable Cann: With regard to any infringements that might be committed overseas or by non-UK citizens, for example, our powers to deal with that are very limited.

[Chloe Smith]

Q I welcome all three witnesses. I have one question for each. Councillor Golds, thank you for giving us your time today. Can you tell us a little about the experience on the ground of how people might have been victims of electoral fraud in Tower Hamlets, and perhaps how difficult it can be for some of those stories to come forward?

Councillor Golds: I have been studying it. I have been involved in elections in the borough for 20 years. I should quickly declare that over the years, I have been an election agent in 13 general elections. In fact, I have been an election agent for every kind of election we can have in this country, from Parliament and European Parliament to GLA, GLC and local council, and I have never seen anything like what I saw in Tower Hamlets.

The thing that always upsets me, and that I find terribly disappointing, is that ordinary people’s votes were effectively stolen. When I knock on a door, somebody will say to me, “Mr Golds, my father used to vote for Mr Attlee.” I smile at them, and then they say, “But what’s the point of voting now?” The problem is that, as both Mr Mawrey QC and Lord Pickles said, those are the people whose votes have been stolen. Most of all, however, there are our Bangladeshi voters, who sometimes come forward and say to me, as their local councillor, “Can you provide this information?” I say, “But you have to go on record, otherwise it is hearsay,” and they will then say, “I’m frightened to do so.”

That is a very intimidating situation, and I have to say it is not only in Tower Hamlets. Mr Shelbrooke read what had happened in Batley and Spen. A few years ago I took a friend of mine, who had contested an election in Calderdale, to meet the Electoral Commission. It was a waste of his time, because the Electoral Commission, as it so often is, was completely uninterested. He had a dossier as large as the one I brought with me today, which he handed to the Commission; as far as I know, it is probably still sitting in an archive, gathering dust.

[Chloe Smith]

Q As a brief follow-up, could you please explain what types of fraud people may have encountered? Be specific; is it personation, postal votes or other types?

Councillor Golds: In the election petition, I submitted eight witness statements and approximately 2,000 pages of backing documentation, covering as much as possible. That includes, for example, where we tracked fraudulent postal votes using postal vote returns in the election data. You can see how things were marked on postal voting.

Tracking personation is much more difficult, but I will give you an interesting example. In the 2010 mayoral election, when Lutfur Rahman was first elected, I wrote one of my many unanswered letters to the Metropolitan Police. At 7.15 on polling day, I was present at Christ Church Primary School polling station in Brick Lane. A man entered and approached the desk where electors from Brick Lane were being processed. He had in his hand a poll card and envelope. However, this poll card was dated May 2010, was issued by the London Borough of Enfield, and referred to the Edmonton general election constituency. He tried to give a name and address in Brick Lane but was unable to accurately do so, by which time he was leaning over to the council staff and trying to point at an electoral register in front of the council and say, “That’s me, that’s me.” Eventually, the council officer started to ask questions, and he left the polling station.

I would add that outside there were supporters of Tower Hamlets First with copies of the electoral register. They mark on the electoral register what we all know exists: the vote return. They know if people vote. They have a list of people who may not regularly vote, and people were coming up, talking to them and effectively being given names to go into the polling station.

If you want another extraordinary example—one that made all sorts of press—it was the incident in the 2006 by-election in the Shadwell ward where a figure, about six-foot-something tall, dressed from head to foot in traditional Islamic gear but with huge red trainers, entered a polling station. An hour later, the same figure entered the polling station, and then an hour after that they entered the polling station.

The Conservative and Labour polling agents then compared notes, rang their agents and were told that the one thing they could do would be to ensure the presiding officer asked the statutory questions. When this person came for the fourth time and the statutory questions were put, he merely hooked up the clothing he was wearing and fled down Bigland Street. Everybody asked the policeman on duty what he was going to do, and he shrugged his shoulders and just said, “Nothing. It’s nothing to do with me.”

Those are two particularly extreme examples, but I can give you examples of cases, exactly as Mr Mawrey said—I have them recorded—where for houses that were boarded up, names appeared on the electoral register and votes were cast, or where people turned up only to discover that their votes had been stolen. Staggeringly, on 6 May this year, Francis Hoar, the barrister for the election petitioners in Tower Hamlets, went to vote in Lambeth and unfortunately his vote had already been cast on his behalf. That is what went on.

[Chloe Smith]

Q Thank you very much indeed. I have a brief question for both Gillian and Assistant Chief Constable Cann. Gillian, thank you very much for joining us; it is good to see you again. We have done some work together, because Peterborough was part of early pilots on how to tackle electoral fraud, and you took forward measures about postal and proxy voting. With reference to the measures in the Bill—for example, clause 6, introducing the requirement of secrecy for postal votes—could you explain to us the problems you encountered, how you tried to deal with them and how you think the Bill will affect that?

Welcome and thank you to ACC Cann, as well. Given that electoral law can be a relatively niche area within policing, can you tell us how the wider profession works to ensure that the right knowledge, training and capacity are in place in local forces to enable them to play the role that is needed from the police?

Gillian Beasley: I will start by saying that we have a very close relationship with the police in Peterborough and our electoral integrity plan is co-produced between us and them. Our police, as well as our electoral services team, have a really good and detailed understanding of the electoral offences in law. There is a lot of co-operation there, which has helped us to home in on where integrity is at risk.

First, I would say that we have seen less personation in polling stations in the recent past. Probably our last prosecution was some years ago, and that is because there are some tight measures not only in polling stations, but around ensuring that we have a good electoral register. We go through our electoral register very carefully, removing duplicate names, and we visit a lot of premises where there are a number of people registered or where we are told there is an empty property, to ensure that they are the right people and that they are real people. Of course, the individual voter registration division has helped tremendously with that.

Where we have issues, as the Minister knows, is in postal voting. That is where our concerns are. The allegations we tend to get are around harvesting. They are allegations of people going into properties where people live—they are proper voters who have applied for a postal vote—and getting that person to make a declaration and signature with date of birth, but not fill the ballot paper. Those are then taken away and the proxies put against the relevant candidate. Those are the allegations. We get allegations about those being taken from properties, and where we get those allegations, we work together with the police in joint operations to visit those premises and make it absolutely clear that there is no tolerance for that and that those properties will be raided. We have never had any prosecutions for that, but we have made a clear statement about not tolerating that kind of behaviour.

The provision on not handing your postal vote to a campaigner is welcome. We will use that as a good communications tool to say to people, “Your vote is your vote. It is important that you post your vote or take it into a polling station.” The restrictions on how many postal votes can go into polling stations is a good provision, and documenting who is going in with those postal votes is important. Harvesting those votes will now be an offence, and although it will be difficult evidentially to get people to make those allegations, to stand by them and to go to court, nevertheless as returning officers we can do some important publicity around that fact: “This is your vote, you must keep it and it is a criminal offence if somebody takes it from you.” I see some strength there, and I support those provisions.

The other area I think is interesting is around undue influence. That is by far the most difficult; we hear allegations, but it is difficult for people who are subject to whatever form of undue influence or intimidation it may be to feel confident to come forward, give evidence and take that through to a court process. We encourage people to do that, but it is still difficult for them.

The change in the provision on undue influence, where you induce or compel somebody not to vote at all, is important; that covers the point that was made about collecting votes where they have not even been marked. My issue as a returning officer is that I send out thousands and thousands of postal votes, and we get them carefully delivered to the correct premises, but what happens behind those closed doors? It is about getting people to confidently give evidence if they are subject to undue influence or somebody comes and tries to take their vote. As I say, we have a really good relationship with the police, who are prepared to take forward and understand the offences. There is a joint communications plan between us and the police telling people that we will take it seriously, take cases forward and investigate every single allegation that is made, but it is still very difficult to get people confident enough to come forward with those kinds of allegations.

Assistant Chief Constable Cann: In terms of developing police knowledge and capacity, I like the description of electoral law being a niche area. I think that is accurate. The RPA is not a widely known piece of legislation among police officers.

One of the reasons that the national portfolio that I lead was created was to raise awareness through some degree of central co-ordination and training across police forces. One of the first things that we recognise is that we are not on our own with this. Gillian has spoken very well about the importance of partnership working between the police, the Association of Electoral Administrators, administrators more locally, the Electoral Commission, the CPS, the parties themselves and Royal Mail. We form strong partnership relationships with a whole range of people, which helps to build capacity and capability within the police service generally.

More specifically, we have established a network of officers, one in every force. We have SPOCs—single points of contact—who are the lead for that force for electoral-related matters. They are knowledgeable in electoral crime and procedure. They usually sit within economic crime teams, but not always. We have created a bespoke training course that is run through the City of London police, which holds particular expertise of its own in this regard. We hold an annual conference for all those single points of contact and a number of other people. There is a very strong, successful partnership from that conference particularly with the Electoral Commission, and with people such as Gillian and other electoral administrators.

We have developed the scope of the portfolio over the last 10 years or so to cover matters of policing the election itself—not just preventing and detecting any fraud, crime or malpractice, but policing the election, so matters of public order and wider security. We have developed guidance in relation to policing elections, which is available on the College of Policing’s website. It is called “Authorised Professional Practice”, and it is about the way police doctrine is expressed and made available to officers up and down the country.

I like to think that, certainly over the last 10 years or so, we have raised the consciousness in the service of electoral malpractice. It is taken extremely seriously and we have some extremely capable and knowledgeable people involved in the work, but it is fair to say that it is something of a niche area. Most officers will not come across it, and in any event the law is slightly difficult to navigate, even for those who have a particular interest and specialism.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

Q Good morning to the witnesses. I have two questions to ACC Cann. Do you think the penalties for those committing electoral fraud are sufficient to deter the bad actors?

Assistant Chief Constable Cann: I think the penalties vary, because there is a blend of a civil and a criminal regime at play here. I do not know, because I am not an elected person, a candidate or anything like that, but I imagine that the harsher sanction will be around matters such as being disqualified from holding office or taking part in future electoral matters, rather than a specific fine or a direct sanction. In that regard, there is some significant deterrence there. Generally speaking, when matters go to the courts, it is generally felt that the courts are quite keen to address the seriousness of the matter before them and hand down a suitable penalty.