Points of Order

John Bercow Excerpts

Monday 22nd January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. On Friday, the Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor came to my constituency and attended a meeting in Redbridge town hall. I first knew about this today, from the website of the Ilford Recorder, to which the Secretary of State has given an extensive interview talking about policing, crime, youth crime and other issues relating to my borough and my constituency. He did not have the courtesy to inform me—nor did he inform the leader of the council, Councillor Jas Athwal, or anybody else in Redbridge, except a few selected councillors—that he was coming to my constituency.

I have informed the Member today, through the answering machine in his House of Commons office, of this point of order. I tried five numbers at the Ministry of Justice, but all were unobtainable, including the public number given to me by the House of Commons Library. At least I had the courtesy to inform him that I was raising this point of order, but, Mr Speaker, I seek your advice. Given that Ministers will be quite active in coming to constituencies in the coming months, can we have it made clear that they should at least inform the Members for the constituencies that they are going to visit?

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his characteristic courtesy in giving me advance notice of his intention to raise that point of order. Moreover, the House has just learned from his detailed description of the prodigious efforts he made to contact the Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor, even if ultimately they were to no avail. I thank him, as I say, for giving me notice of the point of order.

As I have said on many occasions, colleagues, it is a strong convention, albeit not a rule, that a Member should give reasonable notice to a Member whose constituency he or she is intending to visit in a public capacity of the fact of that prospective visit. Apart from anything else, I regard this as a matter of courtesy.

I would say on this occasion that I am surprised to learn of this development, because I know the Secretary of State. Ordinarily, he would be regarded, I think, as one of the most courteous Members of the House. I do regard this as a lapse. It is regrettable and I hope that it will not happen again. We ought to treat each other with courtesy, which means giving some advance notice, as I have said.

[Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your guidance as to whether you have received notification from the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions that she will make an oral statement on personal independence payment. As you may be aware, late on Friday afternoon, the Government put out a written statement announcing that they would not appeal the High Court judgment of 23 December 2017 that in effect reversed the emergency PIP regulations that they introduced early last year.

As I am sure you recall, Mr Speaker, those regulations were brought in without a vote of the House as a negative statutory instrument despite two urgent questions, an emergency debate and widespread concern about their impact. I would be grateful for your guidance on how Members might have the opportunity to question Ministers in detail on this vital policy change, which will affect more than 150,000 people—primarily those with mental health conditions.

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her point of order. In short, I have received no notification from the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions of an intention to make a statement on that matter. As the hon. Lady will know, the Secretary of State is in her place; she is welcome to come to the Dispatch Box and respond if she wishes, but she is under no obligation to do so.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Ms Esther McVey)]

indicated dissent.

[Mr Speaker]

She does not wish to do so at this time. The hon. Member for Battersea (Marsha De Cordova) should table questions and see where she gets. If she and her colleagues judge that they wish to seek a debate on the matter, it is open to them to do so. For now, she has aired her concern and it will have been heard by those on the Treasury Bench.

Oral Answers to Questions

John Bercow Excerpts

Monday 18th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Pound]

Well, what an answer! Never would I accuse the Minister of dedolence, but I must say that that sort of Panglossian response shows an absence of empathy or understanding, particularly of the empirical evidence that we have had to date. My constituents see universal credit as a rock rolling down a hill next April. However, as this is Christmas and we are in the spirit of giving and generosity, will the Minister join me in my impetration to the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority for additional secretarial support during those dark days when this awful universal credit is rolled out and over our constituents?

[Mr Speaker]

I think the hon. Gentleman is going to the west end to perform on the stage. He would feel so fulfilled. In fact, I think that he has already done so—perhaps just now.

[Damian Hinds]

I gently remind the hon. Gentleman that when I say that sanctions are considered to be a part of reasonable conditionality, it was also the approach that was taken up fully by the previous Labour Government. With regard to universal credit over Christmas, we have in place—as we do every year—robust processes to make sure that claims get paid. We can bring claims forward to make sure that things go smoothly, as we always seek to do before Christmas.

[Mr Speaker]

There is a matter of some dispute here between the Chair and the Table. I think that the hon. Gentleman is a representative of a petrocurrency, but Mycroft in front of me is not wholly convinced, so the matter remains as yet undetermined.

[Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I refer the Minister to the question I raised with the Leader of the House on Thursday. Will the Minister provide an assurance that when the Department makes mistakes in the administration of universal credit, claimants will be fully compensated in claims backdated to the point where they will be no worse off?

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[Sarah Newton]

I am looking forward to discussing this matter in more depth with the Select Committee when I come before it on Wednesday. However, I can absolutely assure the hon. Lady that all the assessors receive absolutely appropriate training for what they are there to do. These are functional assessments, and people are properly trained to make those assessments—there are doctors, nurses, paramedics and physiotherapists. We constantly keep the accuracy of the process under review, and that includes the experience of the claimants themselves.

[Mr Speaker]

We are immensely grateful to the Minister.

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

13. What recent representations he has received on pension transition arrangements for women born in the 1950s.

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[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

I will interpret the Minister’s answer as being wide and therefore admitting of other constituencies, although it is not clear beyond peradventure. I will give Members the benefit of the doubt.

[Stephen Timms]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. There will be problems in Torbay and elsewhere if the universal credit calculation is wrong. The Minister told me in a written answer that there is no specific initiative called Late, Missing and Incorrect, but it turns out that there is, run jointly by his Department and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. Will he confirm that if real-time PAYE—pay-as-you-earn—information is late, missing or incorrect, then the universal credit calculation will be wrong?

[Damian Hinds]

We all admire the right hon. Gentleman for his deftness in getting from Torbay to that point. He and I have had quite an extended correspondence in parliamentary questions on the subject of real-time information in its various aspects. Of course we want to continue to make sure that every aspect of universal credit is working entirely as it should, and he has my commitment that we will do so.

[Mr Speaker]

The right hon. Gentleman will experience a long journey from East Ham to Torbay. We empathise with him on his long journey.

[Laura Smith (Crewe and Nantwich) (Lab)]

16. What assessment his Department has made of trends in the level of spending on social security for working households since 2015.

Universal Credit Project Assessment Reviews

John Bercow Excerpts

Tuesday 5th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The time limit on Back-Bench speeches will have to be reduced to five minutes, with immediate effect.

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[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Five hon. Members are still seeking to catch my eye. I have no difficulty at all with each of them speaking for five minutes, but I warn them that their Front Benchers might, as the winding-up speeches will start late. If they are unbothered by the imperious glances of those who sit in front of them, so am I.

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[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mr Speaker]

Further interventions will eat significantly into the time available for the winding-up speeches. I simply make that point and leave colleagues to their own devices.

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[Frank Field]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have never doubted the motives of people on the other side of the House. As the Government have accepted the motion, will the Select Committee have the papers tomorrow?

[Mr Speaker]

My understanding is that the Minister indicated the papers would be delivered before Christmas.

[Frank Field]

This Christmas, we hope.

[Mr Speaker]

Well, certainly this Christmas. I certainly was not thinking of 2018. There is probably a default presumption that it means this Christmas—[Interruption] —but it is always better to be explicit. I grant that to the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Frank Field), who is chuntering from a sedentary position in evident dissatisfaction at the inadequate clarification thus far provided, but help may be at hand, because the Secretary of State is perched like a panther—[Laughter]—if you can perch like a panther. He is poised like a panther, ready to pounce.

[Mr Gauke]

You have done my job for me, Mr Speaker. It is correct that, as I said in my opening remarks, we will provide this information before the House rises for Christmas 2017. On the question raised by the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Frank Field), we will of course want to go through the documentation to take out, for example, the names of junior officials and any commercially sensitive information. As I say, we will provide that information before the House rises this Christmas.

[Mr Speaker]

I am inclined to leave it there for now. If the right hon. Member for Birkenhead has further points that he wishes to raise, he can, but I am not sure it will greatly profit him to do so now.

[Frank Field]

Mr Speaker, I will, if I may, come to talk to you about how soon we can get the documents. We have been promised the papers, not redacted papers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Speaker]

The right hon. Gentleman is welcome to come to talk to me about that point, and I understand the premium he attaches to it. These are often matters of negotiation between a Committee and a Department, as recent experience has testified. There is merit—let me put it like this—in having clarity on the matter before the fact. My door is always open to him.

Universal Credit

John Bercow Excerpts

Thursday 23rd November 2017 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. First, I say with crystal clarity to the House that Members who arrived after the statement began should not be standing and will not be called, which is in conformity with long-established practice in this House. I have often said it; I do not know why it is so difficult for some people to grasp, but that is the reality of the matter.

Secondly, there is heavy business to follow, with a large number of colleagues wishing to participate in the continuation of the Budget debate, so I implore colleagues to be pithy in their questions. I know that the Secretary of State will be correspondingly succinct by way of reply. I am keen to move on at as close as possible to 12.30 pm.

[Mr Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green) (Con)]

In support of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, may I say that the whole roll-out of universal credit was set up deliberately to allow the Government to respond to any problems and make the necessary changes? I will not rehearse my views about some of the previous Budget discussions, but I congratulate my right hon. Friend on having secured from the Chancellor what is nearly £1.5 billion to help the roll-out process, particularly the transferring of people who are on housing benefit and, of course, the waiting days, which will help enormously by giving flexibility to advisers.

Universal credit is not just about getting people into work. It was deliberately designed to find the people who have the greatest problems and, alongside universal support, to help change their lives. I urge my right hon. Friend to look carefully at universal support to ensure that it is rolling out alongside universal credit to make the roll-out a success. I give my congratulations again to a very good Secretary of State.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I have no desire to be unkind—far be it from me to be so—but the hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (Luke Graham) was late. He beetled into the Chamber after the statement had started. I said that if Members were late they should not stand and would not be called. It is, in those circumstances, frankly rather discourteous to persist in standing. Please, in your own interests and out of respect to the House, do not do it.

[Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP)]

I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement. I suppose we should be grateful that, in making these changes, the Chancellor and the DWP have accepted that universal credit is failing, but this was not the robust and comprehensive response it should have been. Universal credit should be halted and fixed. The response does nothing to address the structural failings, the delays and errors, the arrears by default, the evictions and the misery they are causing. The reduction in the six-week wait is welcome, but five weeks is still too long—and let us not forget that many people wait far longer than that.

I was disappointed by the Secretary of State’s earlier answer. The Scottish Government are allowing people to receive payments fortnightly, taking account of and showing respect for working people on universal credit and those on zero-hours contacts paid weekly or fortnightly. Will the Government reconsider the freeze on benefits? As the Resolution Foundation has pointed out, work does not pay for people on universal credit, because, with the consumer prices index so high, working claimants lose money, which creates disincentives. Will he also look into the number of DWP cancelled personal independence payment assessments? Finally, at no cost to the Treasury, will the Government reinstate the third-party consent and legacy benefits removed by universal credit for people in difficulty, especially the disabled, cancer patients and the terminally ill?

Oral Answers to Questions

John Bercow Excerpts

Monday 13th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab)]

Let me start by welcoming the Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work, the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton), to her place.

There has been a 900% increase in the number of complaints about personal independence payment assessments. Statistics from HM Courts & Tribunals Service show that both the number of appeals lodged and the proportion of DWP decisions overturned have increased. There was a 67% increase in the number of appeals in the first quarter of 2017 in comparison with the same period last year. Just last week, Britain’s most senior tribunal judge said that most of the benefit cases that reach the courts are based on bad decisions when the DWP has no case at all. The quality of evidence—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We need a question mark very soon. Forgive me, but the hon. Lady’s text does seem extensive. I know that she is new to the Front Bench, and I am listening to her with interest and respect, but we must proceed speedily, because otherwise Back Benchers lose out. I know that she is coming to a question in her next sentence.

[Marsha De Cordova]

I certainly am, Mr Speaker. What action is the Secretary of State taking to improve the PIP assessment framework, the accuracy of decision-making and the standards of mandatory reconsiderations, and will he stop wasting taxpayers’ money on unnecessary and lengthy tribunal appeals?

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[Ms Lee]

The manager of a food bank in Lincoln has said that there is evidence of a clear correlation locally between the introduction of universal credit—in Lincoln, we have only had it partially so far; we are getting full roll-out in March—and an increase in the use of food banks. I ask for your comments on that, and do Government Members, including yourself, think it is acceptable that people in Lincoln and across this country are starving but for food banks because of waiting for universal credit payments.

[Mr Speaker]

I would not presume to say what is acceptable for the people of Lincoln—that is way above my pay grade—but the Secretary of State might wish to proffer an opinion on the matter, and we look forward to it with interest and anticipation.

[Mr Gauke]

This is why I repeatedly make the point that nobody needs to wait a long period of time for cash support under the universal credit system, and to suggest otherwise is causing unnecessary anxiety for those who are not on universal credit—and I think we should all discuss this in a slightly more responsible manner.

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[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

15. How much longer can a claimant spend looking for a job on universal credit?

[Mr Speaker]

Very well: we have heard the right hon. Gentleman on Question 14, although he did not seek agreement to that proposition. He simply blurted it out, but we will accept that on this occasion.

[Damian Hinds]

We know that people on universal credit spend a great deal more time looking for work than others, and that they apply for a wider range of jobs and consider jobs that they may not have considered before. All that is part of why it involves significantly better labour market outcomes, and why people are more likely to be in work after six months than they were on the old benefits.

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[Mr Gauke]

I am happy to convey my hon. Friend’s concerns.

[Mr Speaker]

I call James Frith. Not here—where is the feller? I call Gavin Newlands.

[Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP)]

T5. I will take the hon. Gentleman’s place, Mr Speaker.My local authority in Renfrewshire is having to set aside nearly £1 million to mitigate the devastating impact on families of the roll-out of universal credit. It is hiring extra staff to deal with rent arrears, which it expects to increase by 5%. With all levels of government in Scotland forced to pick up this Government’s slack, what further evidence does the Secretary of State need to see the huge systemic problems in UC and to understand that he must pause the roll-out now?

Supported Housing

John Bercow Excerpts

Wednesday 25th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Without interventions, the remaining 10 hon. or right hon. Members who wish to speak will be able to do so for four minutes each. If there are interventions, which is perfectly legitimate, that prospect might be imperilled. I will leave it there, and Members must take responsibility for trying to help each other. They are all on the same side of the House, so it should not be that difficult.

Universal Credit Roll-out

John Bercow Excerpts

Tuesday 24th October 2017 Commons Chamber

Emergency debate (Standing Order No. 24)

[Mr Speaker]

Before I call the shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to open this emergency debate, I should advise the House that it can last for a maximum of three hours and that a very significant number of colleagues—in excess of 25—wish to speak. There is of course no time limit on Front-Bench speeches, but I would be grateful if Front Benchers would tailor their contributions to take account of the interest of their Back-Bench colleagues.

--- Later in debate ---

[Damian Hinds]

No. If the hon. Lady will forgive me, I am responding to the right hon. Gentleman.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I understand the—[Interruption.] Order. I understand the very strong passions in this debate, but Members should respectfully wait for the Minister to deal with one intervention before immediately seeking to embark upon another. If I may very gently say so, I do think that the Minister himself is a most courteous fellow, and I think he ought to be treated with courtesy.

[Damian Hinds]

And, Mr Speaker, my response to the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Frank Field) today is to say no, of course we do not expect that to happen. We want this system to work absolutely as well as it can. We have improved the process, for example, on advances, to make sure that people get the assistance that they need in a timely way.

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[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. There is a very large number of would-be contributors to the debate, and as a result I am applying a four-minute limit to each Back-Bench speech, with immediate effect.

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[Rachel Maclean]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I have said this before, but I will gently say it again for the benefit of new Members: a Member cannot be expected to give way to a second Member while responding to an intervention from the first. It is just a matter of timing. That is all. I understand the hon. Lady’s commitment, but we have to do these things in an orderly way.

[Drew Hendry]

I was just clarifying that I have experienced exactly the same in my constituency, where mobile phone coverage still lags behind, particularly in our rural areas. This is not only about people’s inability to get online; people are unable to get on a bus to actually get to a jobcentre to use its facilities. Those bus services sometimes do not exist.

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[Helen Goodman]

Conservative Members have talked a lot about improving work incentives. I shall not go over the history, but I have constituents who say things such as:

“My own personal position is that of a single parent carer to my disabled child. I can’t work as he has very high and complex needs… Quite frankly the rollout of universal credit is terrifying”—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The hon. Lady’s eloquence is equalled only by her length. Interventions must be brief.

[Jeremy Quin]

The hon. Lady is always eloquent, and I take seriously the issue she has raised. I urge her to draw that to the attention of Ministers. I cannot handle specific issues in her constituency, but as I conclude I can describe the generality of employment under this Government. We previously debated universal credit on the day on which the new employment figures came out.

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[Afzal Khan]

I only have one more short point; then I will see if the hon. Lady can have another opportunity.

The second point is that rent arrears are higher among universal credit claimants, young people cannot receive payments towards housing costs, and claimants need to borrow money before they receive their first payment, and all of that is contributing to a higher risk of eviction and homelessness. Will the Minister commit to addressing these issues?

[Mr Speaker]

Has the hon. Gentleman completed his speech?

[Afzal Khan]

indicated assent.

[Mr Speaker]

I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I call Lucy Frazer.

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[Hugh Gaffney]

No, I will not give way. I am going to continue for the sake of other Back Benchers who want to speak. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Passions are running high—very high indeed—but the Member must be heard.

[Hugh Gaffney]

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

These parents go to work but they still have trouble paying their bills. They cannot fill the fridge. This is not about choosing to live on working benefits—it is about a country that is not paying our workers the wages they deserve. It needs to be changed. Workers need justice. The welfare system was created by the Labour party and will only ever really be protected and saved by the Labour party. I want to make this clear: I am not against looking to ensure our welfare system is accessible, working and delivering for people in need, but I am against a failed system that does not work, and so far universal credit is not working.

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[Paula Sherriff]

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I can deal with only one point of order at a time, I say to the hon. Lady in terms that frankly brook no contradiction.

I have heard what the hon. Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare) has said. I understand that he—an extremely level-headed, even-tempered, equable fellow—is genuinely offended. I am not sure that I can find a cure for his sense of offence. The hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Hugh Gaffney) may, in the hon. Gentleman’s mind, have been discourteous—although that is a debatable point, as most things are here—but it was not disorderly. I hope that the hon. Member for North Dorset, who is a seasoned graduate of the Oxford Union of some decades ago, has not had his tender sensibilities overly offended.

[Paula Sherriff]

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. There was an unfortunate occasion in the House during the universal credit debate last week when a Government Member made an unfortunate comment, or used unfortunate behaviour, although he later apologised to my hon. Friend. To suggest that there was no mocking or inappropriate behaviour is not correct, because the Member in question did have the grace to apologise.

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that attempted point of order. We will take the view that there has been an exchange. Now Mr Gaffney, who is, I think, approaching his peroration, should have the opportunity to do so.

[Hugh Gaffney]

Yes, I did get an apology last week. I accepted the apology, and we can move on. It was a disgraceful way to behave, but what made it even worse was the fact that you sat on your hands, and you did not turn up to do your job.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I am enjoying the hon. Gentleman’s very spirited speech, but I must just say to him that I did not sit on my hands. I did not fail to turn up to do my duty. I most certainly did my duty. Debate goes through the Chair, and I think that the target of his criticism is other Members; I do not think that his target is me.

[Hugh Gaffney]

I certainly did not target you, Mr Speaker; I targeted the Government.

On a serious note, what happens to people who do not turn up for their universal credit appointment? They get their benefits taken off them. I repeat to the Government that they are showing no respect. If they cannot turn up to do their job, they should just move over. We are ready and willing to do the job for them. Let us halt universal credit.

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[Rebecca Pow (Taunton Deane) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is making an extremely passionate case. I want to mention an incident in my constituency of Taunton Deane. A vegetable farmer recently said that he could not get people to work for him, and has to use eastern Europeans. He knows that there are unemployed people, but because of the 16-hour rule they simply will not take the jobs.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. May I very gently point out that if Members who have arrived in the Chamber relatively recently intervene, they risk preventing colleagues who have been here for some hours from contributing? I know that the hon. Lady, who is a most courteous person, would not want that to happen.

[James Cartlidge]

It is absolutely right to look at welfare reform in the context of Brexit. My worry, and I say this sincerely, is that—let us look at the seasonal agricultural workers scheme, for example—there is already pressure for a scheme not to get more British workers, but to ask whether we can have workers from Ukraine or Russia. We must think about that, because at the moment unskilled migrants can come to this country only from the EU, not from outside the EU. We have to look at welfare reform through the lens of seeing whether British people will rise to the challenge of stepping into the breach.

The Work and Pensions Committee—I was a member of it—carried out an investigation and we looked at these issues before the general election, and the truth is that large parts of our economy are dependent on migrant labour. If we are to change that, we must understand that the sorts of reform we are now introducing will be just the start of it. There will have to be a real look at education, training and welfare. None of this stuff may necessarily be easy or palatable, but it should move us to a situation in which, instead of flat wages and flat productivity, British people are given a fair chance: they do their bit, and we back them. We will give them support through the universal credit system and we will give them training, and we will have a competitive post-Brexit economy.

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[Ruth George]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The hon. Gentleman is not giving way at the moment.

[Stephen Kerr]

Let us look at what happened when Labour launched its tax credits with a big bang. I am still helping constituents who got caught up in that mess, which included £2 billion in underpayment and overpayment errors.

It is worth reminding ourselves why universal credit is such an important plank in welfare reform. It is about helping people to prepare for a return to the world of work. It is designed to mirror the world of work. When people return to the world of work, it underpins the promise that people will always be better off in work than on benefits. Under the old system, there was a cliff edge, because it made sense to work for only 16 hours or less, and it cannot be good if we end up penalising people because they chose to do the right thing and go to work. The old system punished work. People could lose more than £9 of every £10 extra they earned. Under Labour, the benefits system was so complicated that some people found that there was no point to working more because they would lose more in benefits than they would earn in work. The old system failed to get young people into work. The old system subsidised low wages by letting the tax credits bill get out of control.

It is also worth remembering what work does for people.

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[Victoria Atkins (Louth and Horncastle) (Con)]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The Opposition Front-Bench winding-up speech of three minutes must begin no later than 4.52 pm, so the final two speakers have a maximum of three minutes left—a bit less.

--- Later in debate ---

[Debbie Abrahams]

I start by thanking everyone who has spoken in this debate. I cannot express how disappointed I am that the Government do not seem to have heard the concerns raised by our constituents, charities and so many others, including some of their own Members, and how disappointed I am that the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions did not come to the House today. What message does that send? It is profoundly disrespectful to this House and to the people we represent. I sincerely hope that we have not reached a constitutional impasse, as the Government seem to be refusing to act on the will of the House as expressed in last week’s vote.

This important constitutional debate is, however, little relief for those living in areas about to be placed under universal credit full service. They face the debt arrears and possible eviction that have occurred elsewhere. In my opening remarks, I made clear the areas on which Labour wishes to see improvement from the Government. Those areas fall under three broad headings: programme design flaws; reversing cuts to funding; and implementation failures. Our criticisms have been confirmed time and again by hon. Members throughout this emergency debate and last week.

What we have here is a rare case in which Members of all parties are agreed on the fundamental principles at stake, and we are willing to work together to ensure that universal credit is a success and supports people into work without fear of a loss of income. The Prime Minister stood on the steps of 10 Downing Street and told the nation that she would help those struggling to get by, that she would build a country for everyone. More than a year has passed now, and no conceivable action has been taken to alleviate the miserable effects of seven years of failing austerity upon those on the lowest incomes.

The House’s view is clear: the Government must act. Should they fail to do so, we will keep holding them to account. We will keep fighting on this vital issue, standing up for the 7 million people who will be affected, until change has been realised and we have built social security that is fit for purpose and is there for all of us in our time of need.

[Mr Speaker]

The Question is as on the Order Paper. I will say it again—[Interruption.] Order. Some people seem to need help. [Interruption.] Order. I do not need harrumphing from a sedentary position from a junior Whip, the hon. Member for South Derbyshire (Mrs Wheeler). It does not avail her, and it does not assist the service of the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the Government’s response to the decision of the House on pausing the Universal Credit full service roll-out.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

[Mr Speaker]

We have a lot of pressure on time. If the hon. Gentleman really thinks it is necessary—I know he thinks everything that concerns him is terribly important —we will hear it.

[Andrew Bridgen]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Could you clarify how a Member of this House would raise an issue relating to equality and standards—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was in his place or not, but there were points of order raised about equality matters and respect issues earlier, with which I dealt. No clarification is required. My guidance was sought and I proffered it. We are short of time, and there is a debate now in which other people wish to take part. If the hon. Gentleman is interested, he can always seek guidance from my office. He does not need to raise a point of order now and it is desperately insensitive to other colleagues who wish to take part in current debates in the Chamber. This is not complicated.

Universal Credit Roll-out

John Bercow Excerpts

Wednesday 18th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The last time that the Leader of the Opposition spoke on this issue, he made a series of entirely unsubstantiated factual claims about housing in Gloucester. Are these further unsubstantiated claims?

[Mr Speaker]

Order. That is not a point of order and it is an abuse of our proceedings. I strongly counsel the hon. Gentleman not to make the same foolish mistake again.

[Debbie Abrahams]

I wonder how that intervention will be seen by those people affected by these issues. Some 900,000 working-age adults will be pushed into poverty, while 900,000 children and 800,000 adults will be living in severe poverty.

Earlier, I mentioned the design issues that are affecting disabled people. This week, I heard from someone who has lost nearly £80 a week—a week—because of their transfer to universal credit after they moved house, ending their ESA claim. When UC was first launched, the Government said they wanted to

“simplify the current complex rules which have been prone to error and complex and confusing for disabled people”

and to replace

“seven different premiums with a simpler, two-tier system that focuses support on the most severely disabled people who are least able to work”.

However, subsequent social security changes, particularly the abolition of the UC limited-capability-for-work element from April 2017, have meant that, instead of a net gain, it is likely that there will be a net reduction of support for people with health conditions and disabilities.

Under this Government, we are seeing unprecedented cuts in support to disabled people, with the consequence that more and more disabled people are living in poverty. The number currently stands at more than 4.2 million; this cannot go on. This is exactly what the UN Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities said is causing a “human catastrophe”.

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[Mr Gauke]

I give way to my right hon. Friend—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

The hon. Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) has just been promoted. The Secretary of State needs to gesticulate whom he means with greater clarity.

[Mrs Main]

I thank the Secretary of State for that promotion. I look forward to receiving it in the post.

Is the Secretary of State any more aware than I am of the topic of this debate? Yesterday, the Opposition wanted to fix universal credit. Today, the word “fix” has been dropped. It seems that the Opposition want to pause but not fix. Has he any greater awareness of this matter?

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[Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)]

On this side of the Chamber, we live in the real world of our constituents. People suffering from motor neurone disease came to see us in Westminster yesterday to say that on top of the agony of their disease, they faced the indignity of fighting for their full entitlement under PIP. Today a landlord came to see me in my office, saying that he will never again let to tenants on universal credit, and a single mum told me that she is desperate because, with roll-out just before Christmas, she and thousands of others face a bleak Christmas. Does the Secretary of State begin to understand—

[Mr Speaker]

Order! I am sorry to have to shout, but the hon. Gentleman, though he speaks with great force and eloquence, took too long. We must have shorter interventions, as it is not fair on others.

[Mr Gauke]

Let me turn to the important point of claimant commitment.

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[Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab)]

claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36.)

Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.

Question agreed to.

Main Question accordingly put.

The House proceeded to a Division.

[Mr Speaker]

I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby.

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[Debbie Abrahams]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is a major defeat for the Government on their flagship social security programme. Conservative Whips and the Prime Minister have spent the day strong-arming Conservative MPs to vote against a pause in the roll-out of universal credit, while the Secretary of State has retreated on various aspects of his universal credit policy in a panicked attempt to appease Tory MPs who know that the policy is not fit for purpose.

Yet again, the Prime Minister and the Tories cannot command a majority in the House of Commons. The Prime Minister is in office but not in power. Mr Speaker, have you had an indication from the Prime Minister or the Secretary of State that they intend to come to the House and clarify how they will ensure that the Government implement the clearly expressed will of the House to pause the roll-out of universal credit?

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her point of order. The short answer is that I have received no indication as yet that any Minister intends to come to the House to make a statement on that matter, although it is of course open to colleagues to request such.

I should say the following in these relatively unusual—not unprecedented, but relatively unusual—circumstances. There is nothing disorderly about a recorded vote of the House in which there are no Members recorded as voting no. Members who shout “No” when the question is first put must not vote aye, but they are not and cannot be obliged to vote no. As Standing Order No. 39 states:

“A Member is not obliged to vote.”

A Division requires two Tellers on either side and that was the case.

I should add as follows. A resolution of the House of Commons is just that: an expression of the view of the nation’s elected representatives in the House of Commons. This is important and Members need to hear this part of what I have to say. Constitutionally, from my own experience but based also on procedural advice, and as clearly as what I said a few moments ago, the House cannot direct Ministers. It is for Ministers in the Government to decide how to respond to the clearly expressed view of the House. I feel confident that they will do so, bearing in mind the mood of the House expressed in the urgent debate, which I allowed just two weeks ago, on the need for Government respect for the proceedings of the House.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Just a slight correction, of course: the Government did not vote against the motion and so could not possibly have lost it. It might be that the Labour deputy Chief Whip will have to be sacked for rebelling against the Labour party line. On a serious point, Sir, would you agree that it would be helpful if there was a convention in the House that where a substantive motion is passed the Government should come to the House, within a reasonable time, and make a statement about what they intend to do about it?

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. My response is twofold. First, I do not cavil—I have known him a long time—but I have not been corrected. I have been corrected many times in my life—I make no complaint about that—but I require no correction on this occasion. [Interruption.] Oh, there is a suggestion that somebody else was being corrected. Well, I will not get into that nether region.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

We will come to the hon. Gentleman. I am saving him up; I would not want to waste him.

What I said was correct. This was the expressed will of the House. If people choose not to take part in a Division, they cannot suddenly say, “Well, we didn’t lose”. We are elected to come to this place to debate and decide what our position is on motions. If people choose not to vote, that is perfectly in order, as I have explained, but the motion was carried. That is not an expression of opinion on my part. It is not an indication of bias, a display of partisanship, a siding with one party or another; it is a statement of fact. The motion was passed. End of subject.

Secondly, I strongly agree with the hon. Gentleman, who has been utterly consistent with what he said the other day. I think it highly desirable that the Government, in the light of the result, should come to the House and show respect for the institution by indicating what they intend to do. It may be that a Minister would wish to do that or the Leader of the House. As we all know in this place, the Leader of the House is not merely the Government’s representative in the House; the Leader of the House has to be the House’s representative in the Government. What I have said is extremely clear, and we will await events patiently, as always.

[Pete Wishart]

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. It is quite clear that the Government’s behaviour is bringing the working arrangements of the House into disrepute. A Minister is not going to come to the House to explain why they did not turn up to vote, but what can you do to help the House compel the Leader of the House to come to the House and make a statement about the Government’s behaviour and refusal to participate in the democratic arrangements of the House?

[Mr Speaker]

I must be absolutely explicit in response to the hon. Gentleman, for his benefit and that of the House, and the short answer is that it is not within the powers of the Speaker to compel a Minister, including the Leader of the House, to do anything in this situation. We very much depend in this House, this institution, this great place, on conventions, precedent and a sense of respect for the will of the House. He is a very experienced Member of this place and will know that mechanisms are available to him and others, on both sides of the House, to try to secure a governmental response, if they wish. If they do, they will certainly not find the Speaker an obstacle to their endeavours.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not quite understand something. For 34 years, I have been trooping through hundreds of Divisions on Wednesdays under successive Labour and Conservative Governments. When I was required to be here for those Divisions, I was under the impression that it served some purpose. What worries me is that surely there is some precedent here. You mentioned precedent a moment ago, Mr Speaker. This is not, and should not be, a university debating society. What is the point of the House of Commons if we just express opinions for the sake of it? Surely, when we vote, it should have some effect. I hope that you will use your influence, through the usual channels, to ensure that the House of Commons is at the centre of our national life.

[Mr Speaker]

I absolutely respect what the hon. Gentleman has said. There have been occasions on which, for example, Opposition day debates have expressed a view different from that of the Government. I think there was a case some years ago, when the hon. Gentleman’s party was in opposition, in which that party was successful in a motion that it brought to the House, and the policy of the Government changed thereafter; but it is not for me to say that that has to happen. I have tried to tread a delicate path on this matter, and to explain factually to the House what the result of the vote does signify, but equally, in response to the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), what it does not automatically signify.

I must say to the hon. Gentleman that it is not for me to seek to compel. What I will say to occupants of the Treasury Bench is that it is blindingly obvious that this is an unusual situation about which there is strong opinion, and I think it would be respectful to the House if a Minister, sooner rather than later, were to come to the House—perhaps after due consideration and collegiate exchange with other members of the Government—to give an indication of the Government’s thinking.

This institution is bigger than any one party, and, frankly, it is bigger than any one Government. This place, and what we do here, matter very much. I know that the Secretary of State will share that view, and will want to reflect on what colleagues have said.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mr Speaker]

I will take a couple more points of order. Mr Christian Matheson.

[Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Just a couple of weeks ago, in the House, the Government changed the rules of the House in respect of the composition of Standing Committees to give themselves an automatic majority. They justified that on the basis that they had a majority in the House, and that that should therefore be reflected in Standing Committees. Since it is now abundantly clear that they no longer believe they have a majority—given that they are running scared of every vote that we put to them—should we not be revisiting the decision made only a couple of weeks ago about the composition of Standing Committees?

[Mr Speaker]

I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman is making. I hope he will not take offence, but if he does, it is just too bad—[Laughter]—when I say that he has expressed, with his characteristic force and insistence, and no little eloquence, his opinion; however, there is not an automatic link between the two phenomena that he has described. There could be such a link, but it is not automatic. The hon. Gentleman’s mind has raced ahead.

[Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

I am saving the right hon. Gentleman until last, because he is so senior.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. It deals with the matter of precedent. I am sure you will agree that, historically, there have been plenty of occasions on which the Opposition have been so fed up with the Government that they have boycotted Parliament for some time and not turned up for any Divisions, but it is only this Government who have decided that they are so fed up with losing to the Opposition that they are going to boycott votes in the House of Commons. If we were to craft a motion cleverly, which, for instance, docked a Minister’s pay by, say, £10,000, that would have an effect, would it not?

[Mr Speaker]

What I will say to the hon. Gentleman is twofold. First, I think it better not to entertain hypothetical questions, or, at any rate, not at this time. Secondly—and I say this with some feeling to the hon. Gentleman, who should know from his own experience the truth of what I say—cleverness can be effective in this place, but it is not invariably so.

[Chris Bryant]

As you know! [Laughter.]

[Mr Speaker]

I was rather minded to say that I would not know, but the hon. Gentleman would. I think we will leave it there for now.

There is also a difference between a motion that binds and a motion that does not. Whether the hon. Gentleman thinks the motion is clever or not, some motions instruct, and can therefore secure an outcome, and others do not. The hon. Gentleman will probably be aware not only of the distinction abstractly, but of what types of motion instruct and what types do not. These matters can be consulted on among colleagues and with professional advisers, but I think I should leave what I have said for now.

[Mr Howarth]

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. You have been admirably clear about the obligation that rests with the Government to address the situation they now find themselves in. Even if that is not cutting a Minister’s salary for not responding, should there not be in our Standing Orders some provision whereby there can be a penalty for simply refusing to respond to the will of this House?

[Mr Speaker]

It is open to the House to look at its Standing Orders, and potentially to revise them, at any time; that is not for the Chair. I completely understand the sentiment the right hon. Gentleman has expressed, but I leave that to colleagues. I have tried to be absolutely fair on this matter: this motion does matter; it is important; it was passed. As a matter of fact, however, it is not binding. That is the situation.

I simply say to those who are concerned about a statement that there may be a statement tomorrow, and there are means by which people who want to procure a statement can seek to do so if none is proffered. That is just a statement of the facts. The Chair is not seeking to deliver any change tonight or make any commitment. It is not for me to do that. It is for sensible parliamentarians to talk to each other, to reflect on what has happened, to have a regard to the reputation of the institution, and to act accordingly. People are perfectly capable of understanding the significance of what I have said and of deciding, individually or collectively, how to respond, possibly as early as tomorrow.

Oral Answers to Questions

John Bercow Excerpts

Monday 9th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Luke Graham (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Con)]

No. 7, Mr Speaker.

[Mr Speaker]

No, the hon. Gentleman was standing up on No. 1 and he has a very similar question, so he can unburden himself of his important thoughts now.

[Luke Graham (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Con)]

7. My right hon. Friend is aware that I and many of my Conservative colleagues have pressed him on the issue of providing support for people during the six-week assessment and transition periods for universal credit. Will he confirm that jobcentres in Scotland will proactively offer such advances and support where needed?

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[Penny Mordaunt]

I congratulate my hon. Friend and other Members on both sides of the House who have run Disability Confident events and signed up employers. Our 5,000th employer has just been signed up. If I cannot attend my hon. Friend’s event, I shall be happy to send a video instead.

[Mr Speaker]

But I am sure that it is a personal ambition of the hon. Lady to go to her hon. Friend’s constituency. We look forward to getting an update in due course.

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

May I address my question to the Minister who speaks for a party that has been in power for more than seven years? This morning my constituent, Debbie A, came to tell me that she had failed her ESA assessment, first because she had been told that she could hear her name being called from the waiting room, when in fact she had been told that it was being called by her son, who was sitting next to her; and, secondly, because the report had said that she had been hit by a bus, when in fact she had been hit on a bus. Does not the Minister accept that there are profound systemic problems in the assessment process?

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[Damian Hinds]

In days of yore, such big changes used to be done via a big Gantt chart on the wall and then one day things going live. That is not how universal credit has been designed or rolled out; it is a very gradual process and has been being rolled out since 2013. The full service is now in more than 100 jobcentres, and we continue to update, evolve and improve it at every turn.

[Mr Speaker]

If the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake), who has a similar inquiry at Question 17, were standing, I would call him, but if he is not, I will not—

[Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

He is now, so I will.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

17. Many of my constituents get paid weekly, and real cash-flow problems can be caused if they move from a weekly payment to a monthly payment cycle. Will the Minister set out what we are doing to help deal with these cash-flow problems? Will we keep these measures under review to make sure we provide a workable solution?

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[Penny Mordaunt]

I have stated many times in the House the categories of healthcare professionals who can work as PIP assessors—it is a long list—but I should point out that these people are not carrying out health assessments. They are not there to diagnose; they are there to record the impact of someone’s condition on their personal life, which is quite different. As I have said in answer to previous questions, we will introduce some new measures on PIP as part of our response to Paul Gray’s second review.

[Mr Speaker]

We are well out of time, but we will take the last question because I do not want the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) to feel left out. Let us hear him.

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[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We have run out of time, but I shall call one further questioner, a Member with an insatiable appetite for these matters and a detailed, some would say anorakish, knowledge of all the most complex formulae. I am referring, of course, to the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms).

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

I am very grateful, Mr Speaker. Apart from shocking delays, Citizens Advice highlights two big problems with universal credit. One is that it is too complicated; people cannot understand it. The second is that when there is a problem, there is nobody there to help people. I am glad that the Secretary of State is meeting Citizens Advice, but will he have anything to say to them on those two specific problems?

Jobcentre Plus: Closures

John Bercow Excerpts

Thursday 6th July 2017 Commons Chamber

[Alex Burghart (Brentwood and Ongar) (Con)]

Obviously, we are having this debate in the context of record employment. On both sides of the House, we should be welcoming the fact that fewer people are unemployed now than ever before. That has brought with it enormous social benefits—[Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle) is patient for a moment, she will hear the question. In Wirral West, for example—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I am sorry, but I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman needs to ask a question not in a moment or two but straight away, because many other colleagues are waiting to contribute. The hon. Gentleman is new, and he must get used to it. I want him to get to his question.

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[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. There is excessive noise coming from the Scottish National party Benches. They are in a very excitable state. I am not sure what it is they have for breakfast, but I will take care to avoid it.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

Bearing the burden of the poverty of our constituents.

[Mr Speaker]

We are always grateful to you, Mr Docherty-Hughes, for your observations from a sedentary position. No doubt we will be hearing more of them in due course.

[Ross Thomson (Aberdeen South) (Con)]

In Aberdeen, Greyfriars House will close and staff will move to the front-facing jobcentre at Ebury House. Can the Secretary of State reassure my constituents that the level and quality of service and support they receive will not diminish following the decision, and what improvements can they expect to see in the level of service?

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[Mr Gauke]

The reality is that services will improve. I strongly believe that universal credit, in particular, will result in an improved welfare system, and we are increasing the number of work coaches. Every region and nation in the United Kingdom will see an increase in the number of frontline staff providing services, and Scotland is no exception. I have visited jobcentres to see the sort of work that is now happening, and I am encouraged by the improved services and the collaborative and effective way in which jobcentre staff are working with claimants to help them get jobs and improve their circumstances.

[Mr Speaker]

No one could accuse the Secretary of State of excluding from his answers any matter that might be judged by him to be in any way, or at any time, material. “Comprehensive” would be a polite way of describing it.

[Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op)]

Norris Green jobcentre serves some of the most deprived neighbourhoods of Liverpool. Will the Secretary of State meet my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Dan Carden) and me to discuss the plans to close the jobcentre and explore alternatives, including co-location with local authority services?