Oral Answers to Questions

Shabana Mahmood Excerpts

Tuesday 11th March 2025 Commons Chamber

[Shaun Davies (Telford) (Lab)]

1. What steps her Department is taking to use technology to improve the efficiency of the criminal justice system.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Shabana Mahmood)]

This Government inherited an analogue justice system that has not kept pace with a digital world. Technology can and must transform the justice system. Since taking office, we have expanded the use of tagging; we are piloting new technology to automate manual work in the justice system; and I have launched a new unit, Justice AI, to further develop the use of artificial intelligence.

[Shaun Davies]

The recent announcement of 110,000 sitting days is welcome, but we need to use technology to streamline our justice system. Between 2016 and 2022, we saw a 25% reduction in cases being concluded. What plans do the Government have to use emerging new tech to enhance court processing, get faster justice for victims, and help manage offenders in the community, including through ankle tagging to enforce exclusion zones, and drug and alcohol testing?

[Shabana Mahmood]

My hon. Friend raises an incredibly important point. We need to make sure that the whole justice system, including what happens in our criminal courts, is as efficient as it can be. That is why I have commissioned Sir Brian Leveson to conduct an independent review of the criminal courts. He will consider how to improve the courts’ efficiency, and we will report on that later in the year. There will be, I believe, a wider role for technology to play in tagging and monitoring of exclusion zones and curfews. I want to make sure that the justice system is in the best possible position to make use of emerging technology, so that we can keep our country safe.

[Sir Jeremy Wright (Kenilworth and Southam) (Con)]

The Lord Chancellor will accept that the effective use of electronic tags will not only make the criminal justice system more efficient, but mitigate the need for expensive prison places. Does she agree that two things are necessary for that effective use? First, the tags must be technically reliable; secondly, officials in her Department must have the commercial capacity to manage the contracts efficiently. If she agrees, what can be done to improve both those things?

[Shabana Mahmood]

The right hon. and learned Gentleman raises two incredibly important points. There will be a bigger role for current, new and emerging technologies in the future of our justice system, particularly in expanding the range of punishment available to us outside of prison. I want to make sure that we are at the forefront of getting the best use of our current technology and emerging tech. He is absolutely right about making sure that any commercial contracts are value for money and maintain public confidence. I am ensuring that, across the Department, we have expertise available to us, which is why the new unit that I have set up, Justice AI, will be so crucial to our efforts.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Secretary of State.

[Robert Jenrick (Newark) (Con)]

Under the Justice Secretary’s leadership, her Department let out dozens of dangerous prisoners by mistake last year. Now we have uncovered that criminals who were let out early by her Department were not monitored for up to eight weeks, as they were not fitted with electronic tags. It is another glaring error. Will the Justice Secretary clear up some confusion? How many criminals did her Department fail to tag? Were any offences committed while these criminals went unmonitored, and who has been held accountable for this gross incompetence?

[Shabana Mahmood]

I am really concerned for the health of the shadow Justice Secretary, because he appears to have amnesia; he has forgotten who was in government just a few short months ago. He appears to have entirely forgotten that it was the previous Government who let the tagging contract to Serco, which I have inherited. I have made it clear that the delays that we have seen are totally unacceptable. Although the backlog has been significantly reduced, Serco’s performance is still not good enough, and although last year’s backlog of outstanding visits has been substantially reduced—it is down to normal levels—I will continue to hold it to account and will not hesitate to impose further financial penalties where necessary.

[Robert Jenrick]

We can all see that the Justice Secretary had no answers to my questions. If her Department cannot even tag prisoners properly, why should the public have any confidence in her plan to use tags in place of short prison sentences? The threshold for a prison sentence is already high. Often, criminals have committed multiple offences before they are first considered for prison, which is why scrapping short sentences will endanger the public and will serve as a green light for criminality. Will the Justice Secretary take this opportunity to reassure the public and rule out reducing sentences for burglary, theft or shoplifting? It is a simple question—yes or no?

[Shabana Mahmood]

The public will know that when the right hon. Gentleman’s Government left office, prisons were on the point of collapse. They can have confidence that this Government will fix the mess that his party left behind. We will ensure that prison places are always available for everyone who needs to be locked up to keep the public safe. We will expand the range of punishment outside prison and, crucially, we will ensure that those who enter the prison system can be helped to turn their back on crime. That is the best strategy for cutting crime, and one that his party never chose.

[Greg Smith (Mid Buckinghamshire) (Con)]

2. Whether she plans to release land owned by her Department at Springhill Road to the Springhill Road Residents Association.

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[Dr Luke Evans (Hinckley and Bosworth) (Con)]

10. What assessment she has made of the potential implications for her policies of trends in the level of illegal drug use in prisons.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Shabana Mahmood)]

This Government inherited prisons in crisis: overcrowded, violent and rife with drugs. If we are to have regimes that reduce reoffending and cut crime, we have to crack down on drugs in prison. To do so, we must address the supply of drugs, and prisons use a range of tactics, including X-ray body scanners and baggage scanners. We must also tackle demand. Over 80 of our prisons now have drug-free wings.

[Dr Evans]

Before 2021, less than 1% of seized substances contained anabolic steroids. In 2023, it was 10%, with anabolic steroids being the third most prevalent drug class detected in Scottish prisons. Will the Lord Chancellor meet me and Dr Jayasena and Dr Grant, who are national leads on the topic from Imperial College, to look at conducting research into the impact of steroids on offending and the prison population?

[Shabana Mahmood]

I pay tribute to the hon. Member for his long record of campaigning on this particular issue. It is an important point, and I will ensure that he can meet the Prisons Minister and look at what further research might be needed in this area.

[Liz Twist (Blaydon and Consett) (Lab)]

12. What steps her Department is taking to support female offenders.

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[Joe Robertson (Isle of Wight East) (Con)]

13. What assessment she has made of the potential implications for her policies of the independent sentencing review’s interim report, published on 18 February 2025.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Shabana Mahmood)]

I will not pre-empt the final report of the sentencing review, but let us remember the crisis that we are dealing with. The previous Government ramped up sentences but added just 500 cells throughout the entire time they were in office. Just today, we have heard examples of Members who do not want any prison building in their areas. This Government will build 14,000 new prison places, but even that will not be enough to get us out of the mess left by the previous Administration. That is why I have asked the independent sentencing review to recommend sentencing policies that will ensure that we never again run out of space.

[Joe Robertson]

The Government will consider alternatives to prison and early release, but how are the public to have any confidence whatsoever when the Government released prisoners early and left them to roam the streets for eight weeks before fixing tags?

[Shabana Mahmood]

As I said in answer to an earlier question, we are holding Serco to account, and we ensured that the tagging backlog from the changes to SDS40—standard determinate sentences—was cleared as quickly as possible. We have levied financial penalties against that company. We continue to monitor performance and will not hesitate to take further action if we need to. Conservative Members have to wake up to the reality of their own track record in government: they failed to build the prison places that we needed to keep up with the sentences that they kept imposing, which has left us with an almighty mess to clear up. We are getting on with the job.

[Josh Babarinde (Eastbourne) (LD)]

The independent sentencing review and the Justice Secretary have been taking inspiration from Texas when it comes to reforming our criminal justice system. She might be aware that Texas has a dedicated set of domestic abuse aggravated offences to help protect and respect survivors. Will she support me and Liberal Democrat colleagues in introducing proposals to the Crime and Policing Bill in order to make similar changes to the law in England and Wales?

[Shabana Mahmood]

I have not yet seen the hon. Gentleman’s proposals, which may be on their way, but I will look at them carefully. He will know that the picture is complex. Even jurisdictions with a catch-all domestic abuse offence face issues ensuring that it keeps up with the type of behaviour that they are trying to stamp out, and that other offences do not fall off, so there are technical issues in how such law works in practice. I would be happy to have further such conversations with him. I know this matter is of great interest to him and to Members across the House.

[Joe Morris (Hexham) (Lab)]

15. What steps her Department is taking to help tackle intimate image abuse.

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[Mrs Sarah Russell (Congleton) (Lab)]

19. What steps her Department is taking to reduce the Crown court backlog.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Shabana Mahmood)]

This Government are funding a record 110,000 Crown court sitting days, which is 4,000 more than the previous Government funded. To bring down the backlog we must embrace reform, and that is why I have launched an independent review into the efficiency of the criminal courts, led by Sir Brian Leveson. This Government will deliver swifter justice for victims.

[Mrs Russell]

In 2016, 120,000 cases were disposed of—concluded—in the Crown courts. That figure was never achieved again by the Conservative party, and by 2022 the figure was 17% lower. Conservative Members like to blame covid for everything, but there were problems in the system well before that. There has been a systematic failure to modernise processes in our courts for years, as we on the Justice Committee hear far too often. What more can we do to use technology to make our courts more efficient and, most importantly, ensure faster outcomes for victims?

[Shabana Mahmood]

My hon. Friend is right to note the issue of falling disposals—in layman’s terms, the number of cases that are completed. The rate of disposals has indeed fallen in recent years, which why I have asked Sir Brian Leveson, as part of his review, to consider how we improve the efficiency of our courts, including further technical or AI-related reform that might assist cases to move more quickly through the system. We will need a three-pronged approach: more funding, which I have already delivered; once-in-a-generation reform, which Sir Brian Leveson is looking at; and going further and faster on productivity and efficiency in the system. That is how we will get swifter justice for victims.

[Alison Bennett (Mid Sussex) (LD)]

The backlog in our criminal justice system means that offenders in my constituency are free to commit crime while waiting for the judicial process. I met Sussex police and residents last week and heard how the backlogs are making the already hard job of the police even harder, and residents’ lives a misery. How does the Secretary of State plan on tackling those backlogs, which are leading to offenders roaming free and more crimes being committed?

[Shabana Mahmood]

We are already tackling those issues, and as soon I came into office I increased the number of sitting days by 2,500 on what I inherited from the previous Administration. I have increased the sentencing powers of magistrates courts, and increased funding for legal aid. Criminal legal aid underpins the whole system, and for the next financial year we are funding a record 110,000 Crown court sitting days. That, combined with once-in-a-generation reform of the courts to deal with the demand coming into the system, and going further on productivity and efficiency, is how we will deal with the problems that the hon. Member rightly notes.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

T1. If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Shabana Mahmood)]

The Government inherited prisons on the point of collapse and a record and rising backlog in our courts. Eight months into office, the work of restoring justice in this country is well under way. Since the last Justice questions, I have announced record investment in our courts, and next year Crown courts will sit for up to 110,000 days, which is the highest allocation in recorded history. I have also announced vital reforms to the probation service, increasing its focus on medium and high-risk offenders, alongside recruiting 1,300 new probation officers.

I also visited Texas, where a tough and smart approach has reduced reoffending, cut crime to its lowest levels in the US since the 1960s, and brought its prison population under control. There is much that we will learn from that law and order state, particularly how we get offenders to turn their backs on a life of crime. Through our plan for change, the Government are delivering swifter justice, using punishment to cut crime, and making our streets safer.

[Mr Campbell]

On average, more than 130 people every week across the UK die from drug-related causes. That is more than 6,500 families and homes devasted each year by that tragic loss of life, including more than 200 in Northern Ireland alone. Will the Secretary of State commit to working with each of the devolved Administrations to prioritise prevention and review enforcement against the use of all illegal substances?

[Shabana Mahmood]

The hon. Gentleman makes an incredibly important point. Fixing the problems that he notes requires work by not just the Ministry of Justice, but the devolved Administrations and the Home Office. I will ensure that he can engage with the relevant Ministers on the issues he raises.

[Ian Lavery (Blyth and Ashington) (Lab)]

T3.   Last year, assaults on prison staff were up by 19% and serious assaults were up by 22%, yet the pensionable age of prison officers is still 68—it is simply too late. Can the Minister update the House on any discussions he may have had with officials regarding that industrial injustice and say when these loyal public servants might expect to see this long-standing issue corrected?

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[Robert Jenrick (Newark) (Con)]

Yesterday, the Sentencing Council issued a letter correcting the Justice Secretary. It made it clear that the new sentencing guidelines were not the same as the draft guidance under the last Government and explained that her Department supported the new two-tier guidance—her representative was at the meeting—and it was approved on 24 January. Her officials were even given a walkthrough on 3 March—a dummy’s guide to two-tier justice. After I brought that to her attention last Wednesday, her team briefed the papers that she was “incandescent”. Was she incandescent at her officials or at her own failure to read her papers and do her job properly?

[Shabana Mahmood]

The shadow Lord Chancellor’s amnesia continues, because he clearly has not done his homework; he has forgotten that his Government were consulted extensively on this guidance. It also appears that he cannot read, because the letter states very clearly all the consultation that took place under his Government. It shows that they were consulted numerous times on the new guidance and welcomed it—I notice that he did not refer to that. He knows full well that the change he refers to is a minor change, because the reference to race, ethnicity and cultural backgrounds has been retained in the time his Government seeing it and the changes that occurred, so he cannot hide behind that. The last few days have therefore been an expert lesson from the right hon. Gentleman: he has taught us all how to throw the shadow Transport Secretary under a bus.

[Robert Jenrick]

As a lawyer herself, I would have thought that the Justice Secretary would know the difference between the last set of guidance and the new one. I say “as a lawyer,” but in this Cabinet we never really know who is a real lawyer and who is just pretending to be one. In 21 days’ time, by the Justice Secretary’s own admission, we will have two-tier justice. Her plan to fix that will not come into effect for a year, and that is unacceptable. As she has been too lazy to do her job, I will do it for her. Today I am presenting a Bill to block these two-tier sentencing guidelines and fix her mess; it is here and ready to go. Will she support it? Will she stand with us on the Conservative Benches for equality under the law, or will it be two-tier justice with her and two-tier Keir?

[Shabana Mahmood]

The whole House can see that the only pretence at a job is the one that the shadow Lord Chancellor is making, because he is pretending to be the Leader of the Opposition. We all know exactly what he is about. My reaction to what has happened in relation to the Sentencing Council’s guidelines was very clear when I made the oral statement last week in this House: we will never stand for a two-tier approach to sentencing. I am actually getting on with fixing the problem, rather than looking for a bandwagon to jump on, which is why I have already written to the Sentencing Council. I will be meeting it later this week, and I have made it very clear that I will consider its role and its powers. If I need to legislate, I will do so, but I will ensure that whatever changes I bring forward are workable and deliver the fair justice system that we all need and deserve—one that his Government did not deliver.

[Liz Twist (Blaydon and Consett) (Lab)]

T4.   The principle of equality before the law is integral to our justice system, but the new guidelines from the Sentencing Council—which were welcomed by the previous Government—have put that principle at risk. Does the Lord Chancellor agree that Conservative Members have a lot of explaining to do?

[Shabana Mahmood]

I notice that in all his references to letters, the shadow Lord Chancellor did not refer to the letter from the previous sentencing Minister, now the shadow Transport Secretary, who welcomed those guidelines. He knows full well that that was a reference to the guidelines around race, ethnicity and cultural background.

[Vikki Slade (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)]

T2. The Government’s statistics on women in the criminal justice system show that women are more often prosecuted for much more minor offences and suffer from short prison sentences, which have huge social and emotional effects on their children and increase their likelihood of being taken into care. What steps is the Department taking to continue delivering the female offender strategy delivery plan for 2022 to 2025 and to reach beyond it, thinking about the negative impacts on the children of offenders?

[Shabana Mahmood]

The hon. Lady raises an important point. That is why I set up the Women’s Justice Board specifically to make recommendations—I believe that these are policy choices that are properly made by directly elected politicians. We will make progress on the situation of women in our prisons, particularly those who are mothers, because we know that the harm passes down generations, and we are determined to stop it.

[Jessica Toale (Bournemouth West) (Lab)]

T5. Victims of rape have been consistently failed by our justice system. Under the Tories, 60% of victims dropped out of their cases due to long waiting times, and in my own area of Bournemouth, the charging rate is only 5.8%. Given the outrage we have heard from Conservative Members about the court backlog and the state of our system, which was left to us by their own Government, can the Lord Chancellor please tell us what we are doing to fix the problem and put victims first?

[Lewis Cocking (Broxbourne) (Con)]

T7.   The Government say that foreign national offenders make up 12% of the prison population. Can the Secretary of State tell me when that number will be zero?

[Shabana Mahmood]

What I can tell the hon. Gentleman is that this Government have made faster progress than the previous Government on the deportation of foreign national offenders from our prisons, with numbers that are over 20% higher than the same time last year, and we will keep moving forward.

[Darren Paffey (Southampton Itchen) (Lab)]

T6. A constituent of mine, aged just 21, tragically died after accessing pro-suicide online forums that not only encouraged self-harm, but advertised how to get lethal drugs and how to exploit loopholes that allowed this. The substance used in her death can still be bought on Amazon today. What steps will the Minister take to close those loopholes for those who enable criminality and ensure that the law is actively keeping our young people safe?

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[Esther McVey (Tatton) (Con)]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s attempts to prevent the Sentencing Council from changing the sentencing process, which would lead to a two-tier justice system. If, however, the council will not budge—as appears to be the case—a two-tier justice system will arrive in just 21 days, contradicting the key principle of the legal system that everyone should be equal before the law without discrimination. Will the Secretary of State introduce legislation immediately to ensure that that two-tier justice system does not come about?

[Shabana Mahmood]

I have already set out exactly what I am going to do. I have written to the Sentencing Council, using the powers that I have to do so, and I will be meeting it later this week. I have made it very clear that I will consider its role and powers, and if I need to legislate, I will not hesitate to do so.

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[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

When someone enters this country illegally from another country to which we are not allowed to deport them, and when they have previously expressed support for terrorism and terrorist organisations, but not in this jurisdiction, is the Secretary of State content that the Government have enough powers to protect the community from such a person walking free in our society?

[Shabana Mahmood]

The right hon. Gentleman raises an incredibly important point. I am discussing with the Home Secretary the full range of powers that we need to have at our disposal, and she has already made it clear that we will not hesitate to act further if we need to. However, it is important that we are able to deport offenders who pose a risk to our country.

[Warinder Juss (Wolverhampton West) (Lab)]

Last week, at a Justice Committee hearing, it was confirmed that an effective probation service is essential to the rehabilitation of offenders and to prevent reoffending. However, over the years the service has been under immense strain owing to increased demand. What steps is the Secretary of State taking to ensure that probation officers have manageable caseloads, and that support is provided for their mental health and wellbeing to avoid high levels of stress and burnout, and also to help with the recruitment and retention of staff?

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[Siân Berry (Brighton Pavilion) (Green)]

On Radio 4’s “Today” programme last week, Matthew Ryder KC, who sits as a judge, praised the extreme helpfulness of pre-sentencing reports for passing effective sentences. Will the Secretary of State do as he asks and endorse the importance, value and independence of the Sentencing Council?

[Shabana Mahmood]

We all agree across the House, I hope, that pre-sentencing reports play a vital role in ensuring that whoever is passing a sentence has all the relevant facts at their disposal. I do not believe that access to such reports, or whether a sentencer asks for them, should be dictated by race or ethnic background. They should be made available, and I would like to see more use of pre-sentencing reports across the board for every type of offender.

[Kim Johnson (Liverpool Riverside) (Lab)]

Manchester Metropolitan University estimates that over 1,000 people are convicted under joint enterprise each year, costing the taxpayer £1.2 billion. Does the Minister agree that we need to amend the law on joint enterprise to free up spaces in our prisons?

[Shabana Mahmood]

The law on joint enterprise has already developed somewhat since the previous Court of Appeal decision. I know that the Director of Public Prosecutions is keeping under review how prosecuting decisions are made. At this point we have no plans to go further, but I am happy to ensure that my hon. Friend can meet the relevant Minister.

[Jim Allister (North Antrim) (TUV)]

Across the United Kingdom, inquests are defined as being for the purpose of finding out who the deceased was, and how, when and where they died; they are not trials and they are not about assigning blame, even when they are extended into article 2 investigations. Yet in Northern Ireland we have had findings of blame in respect of SAS soldiers killing active terrorists. Does the Minister agree that the Crime and Policing Bill affords an opportunity, through suitable amendment, to bring uniformity to the operation of inquests across the United Kingdom?

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[Ayoub Khan (Birmingham Perry Barr) (Ind)]

One of the key objectives of the Sentencing Council is to ensure that there is parity of sentence up and down the country. It is a known fact that people from ethnic minorities sometimes get tougher custodial sentences than their white counterparts for similar offences. Given that, does the Lord Chancellor regret her attempt to discredit the considered and evidence-based conclusions of some of the most esteemed members of our judiciary when they published the guidelines on pre-sentencing reports?

[Shabana Mahmood]

What I am shocked about is that we can see a disparity in the overall cohort sentencing outcomes. Everybody accepts that we are not quite sure why it is happening, and there has not been sufficient curiosity over the last few years to work out why that is the case. My view is that if we can see a problem or think we have one, we need to get to the bottom of what is actually going on before we start coming up with broad policy solutions to fix that problem. I also think that some of these broad policy decisions are better made by Ministers, because we are directly elected individuals who will pay the price for the consequences of our choices. That is a conversation that I will pick up with the Sentencing Council when we meet later this week.

[Steve Race (Exeter) (Lab)]

In 2020, Lorraine Cox was brutally murdered in Exeter. Her murderer dismembered her body, and as a result her family have never been able to fully lay Lorraine to rest. Her father, Tony Cox, has been campaigning for the implementation of Helen’s law 2, meaning that desecrating or concealing a body would become a separate criminal offence. Will the Minister meet me to discuss whether the implementation of Helen’s law 2 is possible?

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[Jonathan Hinder (Pendle and Clitheroe) (Lab)]

I was shocked to read the Sentencing Council’s response to the Secretary of State last night, with its arrogant tone. As she has said, this Parliament is sovereign, and the fact is that we have given too much power away to these unelected bodies in recent years. Can I reassure her of my support, and can she reassure me that she will not rest until we retain equality before the law?

[Shabana Mahmood]

I thank my hon. Friend. I am very much looking forward to my meeting with the Sentencing Council later this week. As I have made clear, I am looking into the roles and powers of the council, and I will not hesitate to legislate if I need to do so.

[Sir Ashley Fox (Bridgwater) (Con)]

The two-tier sentencing guidelines take effect on 1 April. If the Lord Chancellor is sincere about having a justice system that treats everyone equally, will she not support our Bill to block the guidelines?

[Shabana Mahmood]

I have already made my position clear. I have written to the Sentencing Council, and I will be meeting it later this week. I am reviewing the roles and powers of the council, and I will not hesitate to legislate if I need to do so.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Chair of the Select Committee.

[Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith and Chiswick) (Lab)]

Last month, the Justice Committee heard evidence from governors of prisons with some of the highest drug use rates in the country. From detecting drones to body scanners and physical barriers, they all felt under-resourced in technology and investment. What is the Secretary of State doing to better equip prison staff to keep drugs out of prisons?

[Shabana Mahmood]

We have already pressed ahead with further measures on X-ray and baggage scanners, and we are taking action to deal with the problem of drones. My hon. Friend will be aware that, for security considerations, I am not going to give the detail of some of those mitigations and of our proposals for tackling drones, because they are used by those involved in serious organised crime. However, I can assure him that I, Ministers and all officials, including those working across the prison estate, are seized of this matter, and we are determined to crack down on drones bringing drugs into our prisons.