MV “Ruby”: Ammonium Nitrate

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill Excerpts

Thursday 31st October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what discussions they are having with the Great Yarmouth Port Authority about additional safety precautions to be put in place to enable the MV Ruby to dock with a cargo of ammonium nitrate.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill) (Lab)]

The Government have engaged with Peel Ports, which owns the port of Great Yarmouth, and the ship’s management company. They have provided guidance and advice to ensure the safe transfer of this cargo from the motor vessel “Ruby” on to another vessel for onward travel. Ammonium nitrate is regularly handled at UK ports and standard health and safety procedures have been, and are being, followed.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for that Answer and declare an interest as an honorary president of the United Kingdom Maritime Pilots’ Association. The cargo of 20,000 tonnes of ammonium nitrate is benign on its own, but I know from construction experience what happens when you mix it with a little bit of diesel and an explosive: in Beirut, about two years ago, it demolished most of the city, as I understand it. Is Great Yarmouth a great place to have a transfer like this, when that ship has been sitting in the North Sea for probably weeks, if not months, trying to get some port somewhere to accept it and unload the cargo? I would be interested in my noble friend’s response.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

My Lords, the explosion in Beirut occurred because of the incorrect storage of a large amount of ammonium nitrate over a prolonged period. It was stored in a shed, alongside fireworks that caught fire and caused the explosion. The ammonium nitrate on the motor vessel “Ruby” has been stored correctly and is not believed to be compromised in any way. The port of Great Yarmouth has experience of handling agricultural dry-bulk cargoes including ammonium nitrate, over 200,000 tonnes of which are imported into the United Kingdom through various ports.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a former MP for a constituency very near Yarmouth. I can endorse what the Minister has just said. He is aware, obviously, that this port, owned by Peel Ports, has state-of-the-art handling facilities for hazardous goods, including ammonium nitrate, and I have every confidence in Peel Ports’ ability to carry out this trans-shipment contract. Is he aware that it is going to be very important for the local economy? The port is doing well, but this is a big contract. Can he just comment on one point? The vessel was originally en route from the northern Russian port of Kandalaksha to, I think, Lagos via the Canary Islands. Is there an issue regarding sanctions here?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I echo what the noble Lord says about the port of Great Yarmouth. The department has engaged with HMRC and the Department for Business and Trade, which have separately considered whether the goods on board the “Ruby” are subject to import sanctions. They have confirmed that ammonium nitrate, the substance on board the motor vessel “Ruby”, is not subject to import sanctions under the Russia (Sanctions) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, as the previous question has illustrated, there is a complex background to this situation. A couple of years ago, it was discovered by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee that the Department for Transport had fallen badly behind in transposing international maritime law into British legislation, a situation exacerbated by Brexit as we no longer had to follow EU law. Can the Minister assure us that the UK is now fully signed up to our international maritime obligations and therefore fully protected in a sensitive and complex situation?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The noble Baroness is obviously right that this is an important issue. I will write to her about the current position in this respect, but I have to say that the position of the motor vessel “Ruby” is not affected by the situation in the past that she talked about.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with the tone of what the Minister has said about not spreading alarm unnecessarily, but can he say what actions the port authority has taken to engage with communities in Great Yarmouth to address their understandable concerns?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I am told that handling ammonium nitrate is a normal operational activity at Great Yarmouth, as we have heard. My understanding is that there has been no special public consultation and, in fact, the transfer of cargo has begun and is regarded by the port as not being an exceptional activity.

[Lord Greenway (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome the Minister to what I think is his first maritime Question. I agree with him entirely about the transportation of this particular fertiliser, many hundreds of thousands of tonnes of which are transported safely around the world every year. He mentioned the Beirut explosion. This particular commodity can be set off only through shock or heat in a confined space. On that occasion, having been poorly stored for several years, as the Minister said, the fireworks caught fire and exploded, providing the perfect whammy for the major explosion which followed.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The noble Lord is right that it is my first maritime Question. I was not expecting to be so knowledgeable about ammonium nitrate 48 hours ago, but I am now and I welcome his information about the explosion in Beirut.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, can I just follow up the question from my noble friend Lord Moylan about the information given to local residents? It is a routine operation, as the Minister rightly says. But given the extended publicity around this particular transfer and this particular docking, it may well be that some local people who were not aware that this was routine are now alarmed. Can the Minister have another go at answering the question of whether there are any concerns, given the media coverage of this ship docking there?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

Given what the noble Lord has said, I will ask again, but I emphasise that as far as the port is concerned this is a routine activity and accounts for no more than removal of the cargo from one ship by means of lorries on the quayside and putting it in a second one.

[Lord Dannatt (CB)]

My Lords, I am delighted to be able to come to the assistance of the Minister and can assure him that there has been very responsible coverage of this incident in Great Yarmouth, as I live not terribly far away. The Eastern Daily Press yesterday and this morning showed the ship very safely in the outer harbour, with the ammonium nitrate being handled in the way that it has been handled on many occasions in the past. I congratulate Peel Ports, Great Yarmouth and the borough council for the way in which they have carried out this operation, despite the scare stories that have appeared in the media, which, by and large, have been groundless.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for that information.

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

My Lords, it is one of those odd occasions when you realise that you have some slightly strange expertise: I declare my interests as a firework maker and a bomb disposal officer. I think the tone of this Question is exactly right. Poor old ammonium nitrate is perfectly safe in its own condition, but when it is mixed 16:1 with diesel it becomes a high explosive. I simply suggest that the best approach the Minister could take to reassure local residents is to reassure them that there is no diesel seepage and therefore no threat.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for that. I hope he goes nowhere near Great Yarmouth for the foreseeable future. It is a serious point, and the Health and Safety Executive has been fully engaged. It has been helpful and supportive in providing advice and guidance to the ship’s management company and Peel Ports to ensure that the handling of this cargo is in line with UK regulations and, of course, safe.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

Given the intervention of the noble Lord opposite, can we have a reassurance that he will be checked very carefully next Tuesday?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

But not by me.

[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I also wish everyone celebrating a happy Diwali. What was the rush to get the ship docked when it was? It had already been in the North Sea for quite some weeks and had been turned away by Norway and Lithuania. Might it not have been more reassuring for the public had it waited until after 5 November?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

Indeed, happy Diwali. The ship was on its way to its home base of Malta and, given the likely conditions in the Bay of Biscay and the weather at the time of year, the ship’s management company took the commercial decision to make repairs to the ship instead of risking the safety of the 19 crew members on board. The Government therefore supported them in convening conversations with UK ports and authorities to identify an appropriate port for the offloading of this cargo type, and I think that is a very responsible thing to do for mariners who were otherwise at sea for a prolonged period in a vessel that was clearly not fit to finish its journey.

Railway 200

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill Excerpts

Thursday 31st October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. I refer to my railway interests as listed in the register.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill) (Lab)]

My Lords, Railway 200 marks the anniversary in 2025 of the first public passenger railway in the world and will celebrate the railway’s contribution to the nation’s and the world’s development and connectivity. A reformed railway is vital to the Government’s commitments to deliver more growth, jobs and housing. Railway 200 is a celebration not only of the past with heritage railways but of the present and the future, including the UK’s exciting technical and engineering innovations and the career opportunities across Britain that they offer. My department is playing a full role in this.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

My Lords, that is a great Answer. In 1845, 20 years after the first passenger railway, Benjamin Disraeli wrote:

“The railways will do as much for mankind as the monasteries did”.


He was right about that. Can my noble friend the Minister be a bit more specific about the support that the Department for Transport is giving to Railway 200, particularly the financial contribution? Does he agree that the celebration provides a great opportunity to not only showcase what the early railway pioneers did but to look forward to what the railways can achieve in future?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I have to agree with Disraeli after all these years. The railway is currently, and will remain, publicly supported to a great extent but with significant private sector contributions. As my noble friend would imagine, we are appealing to all the people whose businesses support the railway, to make sure that the public sector contribution is as low as possible at a time of financial stringency. We have not finished that process yet. Meanwhile Network Rail, which is supported by the department, has contributed some support to get the project going. I cannot say exactly what the department’s contribution is. I expect it to be as low as possible, and in due course if my noble friend asks we will be able to tell him. At the moment we are still collecting financial contributions from those people whose businesses support the railway and vice versa. As far as the nature of the celebration goes, quite clearly the benefits are not only a good celebration of history but of the fact that the UK’s railways are leading the world with technological innovation. Those are the things that we will be clearly showcasing alongside, as I said, the career opportunities offered.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I too agree with the first Earl of Beaconsfield. As Heritage Minister, conscious that plans for the anniversary might be derailed by an intervening general election, I encouraged people from across the sector to liaise with the now Minister in his capacity as chairman of Network Rail. Little did I know that after the election he would be in such an excellent position to help deliver it. The Minister shares the passion of so many, particularly in that cradle of the railways the north-east of England, to ensure that this anniversary celebrates the past and inspires people for the future. I imagine he shared my dismay to hear the news in the Budget yesterday that the Government are not minded to honour the £15 million of capital funding for the National Railway Museum in York which we announced in March. Will he use his good offices to try to persuade his colleagues across government not to cancel that funding, particularly at such a historic juncture?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to see the noble Lord in front of me. He was material in moving this project on at an earlier stage, for which I thank him very much. I had not caught the issue that he raises and my best course of action is to go away, inform myself, and then see what can be done about it.

[Lord Ravensdale (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. The Midlands Rail Hub project is eagerly awaited by stakeholders right across the region, not least in addressing those east-west links in the region that have been such a problem in the past. I heard no mention of the Midlands Rail Hub in yesterday’s Budget. Can the Minister update the House on progress within the department on this vital project?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

It is as with so many other projects; this Government found when they took office a very large list of projects with a much smaller funding envelope to deliver them. The Secretary of State for Transport has commissioned a full review of all transport infrastructure projects. This needs to be done properly. As I have said before here, everything you do with the railway lasts 150 years. When we have finished reviewing all those projects we will have a plan to go forward to invest in the best possible way.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, one of the commercial supporters of the celebration the noble Lord referred to is Alstom, a train manufacturer based in Derby. Some months ago, there were serious concerns about jobs in and the viability of Britain’s train manufacturing companies, caused by intermittent orders. Given that there is a lack of information from the Government so far about how the system will work in the future under nationalisation, and given that they have not committed to touching the roscos and the system of ordering trains, can the Minister reassure us that those threats to well-paid, skilled jobs have now receded?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The Government are absolutely committed to maintaining jobs in the railway manufacturing sector. The noble Baroness needs to know that the creation of Great British Railways will enable the Government for the first time for a very long time to produce a long-term plan for rolling stock strategy for Britain, which will give much more clarity to the manufacturing industry about what will be replaced when.

[Baroness Winterton of Doncaster (Lab)]

I know that my noble friend the Minister believes, as I do, that rail freight is as important now as it was 200 years ago. Can he assure me that he will continue discussions with companies such as Freightliner, which has a base in Doncaster, which are eager to see a rail freight strategy to move more freight on to rail and help the Government meet their environmental targets?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

Indeed, I recognise that. I met the managing director of Freightliner on Tuesday. I met the managing director of DB Cargo on Monday. I met the managing director of GB Railfreight three weeks ago, and I have met the industry collectively since I took office. The Government recognise the importance of rail freight and the need to grow it. A target for the growth of rail freight with be part of the Great British Railways commitment.

[The Lord Bishop of Newcastle]

My Lords, the father of the modern railways, George Stephenson, was born in Wylam in my diocese. The noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, has already referred to the pride that the north-east feels in his legacy. Would the Minister consider adding his name to those of colleagues from all sides of this House and the other place in pledging support for the reinstatement of the Leamside line in the north-east, adding a modest 21 miles of connectivity to that region?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The Leamside line is one of many projects—I have already had a question about the Midlands Rail Hub—that are part of the review commissioned by the Secretary of State for Transport. We need to allocate the funding we have for railways in the best possible way. The comprehensive review she has commissioned will seek to do just that.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the department’s contribution to the 200-year anniversary. Will the Minister acknowledge that we have seen massive growth on the railways over the past 20 years, with passenger journeys going up from 700 million to 1.8 billion before the Covid pandemic? What is the Government’s plan to see them continue to grow? That growth has been brought about by bringing in the private sector.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

We all recognise the growth in passenger traffic on the railways in the past 20 years. There are many reasons for it. Sadly, post Covid, the railway has less patronage than it did and certainly less income than it did, so the Government’s proposals for a reformed railway have to address the issues on the railway as they are now, not what happened in the past.

Vehicle Drivers (Certificates of Professional Competence) (Amendment) Regulations 2024

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill Excerpts

Tuesday 29th October 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 16 May be approved.

Relevant document: 1st Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill) (Lab)]

My Lords, I first declare that I am the holder of a valid certificate of professional competence, as I hold a valid passenger-carrying vehicle licence. But I do not believe there is any conflict of interest in my promoting these regulations.

The purpose of this statutory instrument is to introduce an alternative route for renewal of the driver certificate of professional competence. This alternative will be recognised across all four nations of the United Kingdom and will offer more flexible courses than the current system, with an accelerated pathway for drivers to return to the profession. The existing process for demonstrating competence, which is recognised across Europe, will remain for those drivers who operate within the European Union and will remain valid when driving in the United Kingdom.

We are amending the existing Vehicle Drivers (Certificates of Professional Competence) Regulations 2007 under powers conferred by the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Act 2023 and the European Union (Future Relationship) Act 2020.

The background to this is that the Vehicle Drivers (Certificates of Professional Competence) Regulations 2007 transposed EU directive 2003/59/EC, and were last amended in 2020. We are proposing to amend the regulations to increase the choice and flexibility available to drivers when they renew and, as a holder of a driver certificate of professional competence myself, I think these are sensible and proportionate reforms that will help the sector.

Noble Lords may remember that, back in 2021, there was an acute shortage of lorry, bus and coach drivers, which caused significant disruption to critical supply chains and passenger services. As part of its response, the department launched a review of the driver certificate of professional competence in 2021, involving industry, seeking views on ways to improve processes to increase recruitment and retention. Many felt that the current renewal process was inflexible and unnecessarily burdensome, in particular the time and cost burdens of the periodic training requirements for the renewal of qualifications.

Currently, drivers must do 35 hours of training through a rigid structure, with courses being a minimum of seven hours and most courses being trainer-led. This was identified as contributing to drivers leaving the profession. Drivers and former drivers stated in the 2021 review that the burden of gaining the certificate of professional competence was acting as a barrier to those considering joining or looking to renew their qualification, leading people to leave the sector.

A public consultation was launched in early 2023, suggesting options for possible changes to the ways to demonstrate professional competence. That consultation, along with regular industry engagement, has informed the reforms that we are proposing, to give drivers more options and greater flexibility during the renewal process and to assist the industry in retaining and recruiting drivers.

Currently, drivers renew their certificates of professional competence every five years to drive in the UK or the EU, by doing 35 hours of training through a rigid system of courses, with little e-learning as an option. We are introducing a national qualification to sit alongside the existing international qualification. The national qualification, which will be valid across the United Kingdom, will still require 35 hours of training every five years, but courses can be shorter, with a minimum of three and a half hours, and there will be more e-learning available, with new stand-alone e-learning courses being introduced—something that is not currently available. This flexibility was something that many in the industry, particularly drivers, have requested.

We are also introducing an accelerated pathway to allow drivers to return to the workforce. If a driver’s certificate of professional competence has lapsed by more than 60 days but less than two years, the driver can take a seven-hour bespoke return-to-driving course to a gain a one-year national CPC. This window of time was chosen to avoid drivers deliberately allowing their CPC to lapse in order to take the accelerated return pathway and to prevent drivers who have been out of the profession for a prolonged time rejoining without adequate training. Within the 12-month validity period of their national CPC, the driver can then do the remaining 28 hours of training to regain a full five-year national or international CPC.

I am aware that some in the industry would have liked to abolish the CPC entirely. While I sympathise with drivers who see it as a burden, based on time and cost to renew, I believe that it is absolutely necessary, for reasons of road safety and driver professionalism. Additionally, due to the requirements of the trade and co-operation agreement with the EU and other international obligations, the CPC must be kept for most commercial international road freight and passenger transport.

These reforms will make renewing or regaining a CPC much easier and more flexible for operators, but particularly for drivers, easing the impact on work/life balance, while not reducing the quality of the education drivers receive, to maintain a safe and highly professional workforce in the road freight and passenger transport sectors.

These changes to the Vehicle Drivers (Certificates of Professional Competence) Regulations will make the renewal process more flexible for drivers operating solely in the UK and help to reduce the chances of future driver shortages. We listened to stakeholders in all four nations while developing the amendments, and we expect the amendments to support the industry while ensuring a professional and safe workforce throughout the UK and beyond.

To help the industry to understand the more flexible training route, the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency in Britain and the Driver and Vehicle Agency in Northern Ireland will issue guidance to the industry on these changes. I therefore beg to move that the House approve these regulations.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for introducing the regulations so skilfully. I welcome them, including all the detail.

Before saying anything substantive, I should declare my interest: I hold a C+E HGV licence and am a qualified HGV driving instructor, albeit somewhat out of date. I do not need a CPC because I do not drive HGVs commercially and have no intention of doing so. It is sometimes argued that Members of the House of Lords claim to have experience but are actually has-beens. I operate a tank transporter for the REME Museum, so I still keep my hand in.

As part of my research this morning I used the mock HGV theory test to be found at the GOV.UK website. I am pleased to tell the House that I passed, with 43 correct answers out of 50, without any preparation. I was surprised to see some quite technical questions about internal engine design; 4% were concerned with abnormal load operations. I presume that the test is, correctly, designed to make it hard to get 100%. If all the questions were easy, a 100% pass rate would be required, but that would mean that even the simplest error resulted in unnecessary failure. That experience gives me confidence in the testing system, although much if not all the CPC training system is attendance only.

A recent Answer by the Minister to my Written Question indicates that there are about 688,000 HGV drivers with a CPC and a further 287,000 without. Research carried out by your Lordships’ Library appears to indicate that only one person in this Parliament has any practical experience of heavy goods vehicle operation. When the House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill comes into effect, there will be none.

The Minister is aware that I am currently vigorously engaged in supporting the road transport industry in respect of abnormal load movements. However, he will understand that support in the industry for compulsory training, including CPC, is mixed, and he referred to that. For instance, I have been surprised how reluctant the industry has been to recognise the need for training and record-keeping on each piece of equipment to be operated. One problem is that operators who undertake extensive training keep finding that their drivers are being poached by other operators offering slightly higher remuneration but little training. That is a good argument in favour of the CPC regime the Minister has articulated.

The CPC is personal to the driver, not the operator. That is a long-standing problem, and it is not clear to me that the Minister can do anything about it. He has claimed that these regulations and the CPC are all about raising standards and professionalising the HGV driving trade, and I am at one with him on that. However, we are still not treating HGV drivers as well as we should, given their importance to sustaining our way of life. We saw this when we literally ran out of HGV drivers a few years ago, as the Minister observed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for arranging a briefing with officials for me on this instrument, and indeed on the previous instrument, about which I should have made a similar remark.

This is a Brexit benefit; there is no doubt at all about that. It gives us the chance to set standards and a training regime for our own HGV drivers to match the needs of our economy and our workforce. That brings me—if I may anticipate the Minister—to the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Market. My understanding is that this is a domestic certificate that will operate in the whole of the UK, including Northern Ireland, but it will not of itself give any right for the driver to operate on the continent of Europe. For that there will remain the international certificate and the training regime, which will be compliant with European standards. This is wholly to be welcomed as allowing us to be more flexible and responsive.

Nobody has yet mentioned the question of safety. If the Minister says to the House that he believes this regime will result in a level of competence that will not compromise safety in itself, I am perfectly happy to accept that, but the point needs to be raised because safety in the driving of HGVs is a very important factor.

I feel very inadequate in following the speech of my noble friend Lord Attlee. It made me wonder how easy it is for an HGV driver to gain a life peerage. What a pity it is that the vandalism of the House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill would remove the only one we actually have. However, we have no objections to the instrument.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

My Lords, I very much welcome the contribution of the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, and I recognise his professional competence, as he has said to me privately that he recognises mine. I agree with many of his remarks, in particular his support of this training regime. He is right that this instrument makes a difference. I will come on specifically to answer the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, about safety in a moment, but I think the noble Earl is right: this adds to the professionalism in these professions, and it is a good thing to do.

The noble Earl referred to the conditions for HGV drivers. He is right, of course, that historically there has been very poor provision. My department is making some progress on improved roadside facilities and safer rest areas. The department recently announced more than £14 million in joint government and industry funding to improve lorry parking infrastructure, boost working conditions for drivers and drive innovation and decarbonisation.

The HGV parking match-funded grant scheme was launched in 2022 to fund investment in driver welfare, lorry parking provisions, site security and so forth. The department announced the latest grant allocations as recently as 10 October. There are 23 provisionally successful bids, amounting to approximately £4.5 million of government funding and leveraging about £8 million from industry. I am sure the noble Earl will contend that that is not enough. I will therefore write to him on his question as to whether we can find out exactly how many people sleep in their cabs, when maybe they should not need to. I do not know, but I understand the question and will endeavour to answer it in writing.

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, for her support. We will of course keep these plans under review—especially, as she said, the one that enables people to rejoin the industry. Having left doing my five days of training until after a point at which I realised that I might be the Minister of State for Rail, it was then a bit of a struggle to get the five days in. I was wondering what would happen if I ran out of them. This is a good thing, because there are people who leave these industries and regret that they do so and who then find it difficult to get the qualifications. However, I also agree with the proposition in the instrument before us: they cannot use it to get round the requirement for the five days of training. They should not be able to do that.

The noble Lord, Lord Moylan, had it exactly right that, if you drive in the EU, you will need the EU certificate of professional competence. The EU, as I understand it, is considering introducing reforms, but it is not as fast as we are, so it is unlikely to recognise this national CPC in the near future. These reforms are necessary, however, and good things to do anyway.

Lastly, the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, referred to safety. Driving a heavy vehicle of any sort is a professional job and it needs to be safe. There has been a lot of consideration about the nature of this training. I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, that it is a good thing, despite the opposition to it from some people—a few operators and some drivers. Apart from anything else, as I can testify, you can hold one of these licences for a long time. I passed my PCV test in July 1974 and, until these regulations first came into effect about 10 years ago, I did not need to do a single day’s further training. If you think about the possibilities of driving either a vehicle like the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, does, or the modest public passenger-carrying vehicles that I drive, that is extraordinary. It is absolutely right that people who follow these professions should get periodic training. They should be reminded of the serious consequences of breaking regulations on drivers’ hours, of not complying with the Highway Code and of a number of other things—including, if I put my railway hat on, the possibility of tall vehicles striking railway bridges—all of which are covered in this training. In addition, in the case of passenger-carrying vehicles, dealing with passengers is covered properly.

It is very good to hear that all sides of your Lordships’ House support this. We are not going to abolish the qualification. I can attest, as I said, to the focus on road safety, that the CPC brings, and I beg to move that these regulations are adopted.

Motion agreed.

Vehicle Emissions Trading Schemes (Amendment) Order 2024

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill Excerpts

Tuesday 29th October 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 9 September be approved.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill) (Lab)]

My Lords, this Order in Council amends the Vehicle Emissions Trading Schemes Order 2023, which implements the zero-emission vehicle mandate and carbon dioxide emissions targets for new cars and vans with the purpose of facilitating the Northern Ireland Assembly’s decision that Northern Ireland should join the scheme and also makes technical updates. In doing so, the amendment brings Northern Ireland into alignment with the rest of the United Kingdom and represents an important milestone on the pathway for the United Kingdom to achieve 100% zero-emission new cars and vans by 2035 and net zero by 2050.

Domestic transport is the largest contributor of greenhouse gas emissions, accounting for nearly 28% of all emissions in the UK. Analysis of the vehicle emissions trading schemes projects emissions reductions of approximately 411 million tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalents out to 2050, with a further 9 million should Northern Ireland join. This is the single largest carbon-saving measure in government and is of singular importance if we are to meet our climate commitments.

These measures are also critical for kick-starting economic growth not just in Northern Ireland but across the UK by giving businesses the certainty they need to invest in the transition to zero-emission vehicles. Some £6 billion of private investment has already been committed by the charging infrastructure industry, and the Government are working closely with the entire vehicle industry to deliver a green future for one of the UK’s most important manufacturing sectors.

As noble Lords may recall from the debate in your Lordships’ House on the original instrument last year, the ZEV mandate sets headline targets for the registration of zero-emission cars and vans. This includes battery electric or hydrogen-powered cars and vans. It also sets carbon dioxide emissions targets requiring that vehicle manufacturers’ emissions get no worse on average than they were in 2021.

A variety of flexibilities is included in the legislation to ensure that every vehicle manufacturer has a viable pathway to meeting the targets during the first few years. For example, overcompliance against the carbon dioxide targets may be used against the ZEV targets, meaning that manufacturers that deliver carbon dioxide efficiencies can deliver fewer zero-emission vehicles than the headline ZEV target.

When this policy was originally consulted on, a remarkable 96% of respondents preferred UK-wide implementation. However, at the time that this legislation was laid in autumn 2023, it was possible for it to apply in Wales, England and Scotland only. This is because of a specific requirement in the power used to create the original legislation—paragraph 11 of Schedule 3 to the Climate Change Act 2008—which means that the order cannot apply unless the statutory instrument creating the schemes has been laid before and approved by affirmative resolution of the relevant devolved legislatures.

As the Northern Ireland Assembly was not sitting at the time the original order was laid in autumn 2023, it was unable to approve the legislation. Therefore, Northern Ireland could not join the schemes alongside Wales, Scotland and England. As an interim measure, Northern Ireland remained subject to the emissions regulations for new cars and vans that the rest of the UK was leaving behind. These regulations were themselves assimilated from European Union law following the UK’s withdrawal and functioned as average carbon dioxide emissions targets that tighten every five years.

Following the restoration of the Assembly in February 2024, John O’Dowd, the Minister for Infrastructure in the Northern Ireland Executive, wrote to the UK Government, the Scottish Government and the Welsh Government expressing his intention, subject to the approval of the Northern Irish Assembly, that Northern Ireland should join the schemes. This amendment was therefore drafted in close consultation with the devolved Governments. I am pleased to confirm that the Assembly approved this amendment and therefore Northern Ireland joined the schemes on 14 October this year. Senedd Cymru approved the amendment on 22 October, and the Scottish Parliament will be taking a vote in the next few days following the amendment’s successful passage through committee.

This legislation is an excellent example of all the Governments in the United Kingdom coming together to tackle a common challenge. I take this opportunity to thank Ministers and officials in the Department for Infrastructure in Northern Ireland, the Scottish Government and the Welsh Government for the exemplary fashion in which this process has been conducted.

The amendment has two purposes: first, to effect the inclusion of Northern Ireland in the schemes and, secondly, to make technical updates to the legislation. Part 1 of this amendment contains preliminary provisions establishing the territorial scope and that the instrument amends the Vehicle Emissions Trading Schemes Order 2023.

Part 2 contains a series of technical updates to correct minor errors and clarify drafting. The most salient of these are the update in Article 3 that clarifies that hydrogen fuel cell vehicles should be treated as zero-emission vehicles for the purpose of the scheme, the correction in Articles 5 and 7 of an error in the formula for determining the cap on the maximum amount of compliance that may be converted from the carbon dioxide target schemes to the zero-emission vehicles target schemes and the addition in Article 11 of additional measures to address a gap in enforcement provisions.

Part 3 amends the schemes to allow Northern Ireland to join. The changes themselves are relatively minimal as the original legislation was drafted to allow for the possibility of Northern Ireland joining, should the Assembly choose to do so.

Finally, Part 4 makes consequential amendments to assimilated EU law to sunset—“sunset” is a verb, apparently—the emissions regulations that currently apply in Northern Ireland and make consequential amendments to revoke now redundant law, preserve certain parts for legacy administration and amend certain regulations that still have utility. I am sorry about that verb.

I am pleased to say that the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee and the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments reported no concerns in respect of this instrument, and I thank members of both committees for their hard work.

It is important to note that the zero-emission vehicle targets and the carbon dioxide targets will be applied as a UK-wide average when Northern Ireland joins from January 2025. This means that Northern Ireland alone will not be required to meet the headline zero-emission vehicle target in 2025, which is 28%. The Northern Irish new car and van market is approximately 50,000 vehicles per year, compared with the UK car and van market of around 2.3 million, so it is approximately 2%. As such, while manufacturers will want to maximise their zero-emission vehicle sales in Northern Ireland, joining the schemes will not force vehicles into the market beyond the naturally growing demand.

While this is a technical amendment in nature, it represents a significant step forward in the journey to net zero for Northern Ireland and the whole of the United Kingdom. I beg to move.

[Baroness Scott of Needham Market (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Randerson cannot be in her place this evening, so it has fallen to me to comment on this order. It is, as we have heard, an uncontroversial statutory instrument that very sensibly brings Northern Irish regulation into line. Therefore, from these Benches, we entirely support it.

As a former member of the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, it troubles me that a significant part of the instrument is the correction of errors. Although I shall in future refer to all my errors as technical adjustments, there is a serious point about quality control. I will say no more to spare somebody’s blushes, but it is concerning.

I have a couple of questions on the wider point. Sales of electric vehicles are much slower than was anticipated. The industry is saying that this is because of deferring the end of sales of new internal combustion engine vehicles to 2035. Have the current Government given any thought to reverting back to 2030? When can we expect the Government to complete the review of EV charging infrastructure? As the report from the environment committee pointed out, it is a major hindrance to people having confidence to buy EVs.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

If I were to take that question, this could be a very long intervention, so perhaps the noble Lord will forgive me if I move more directly to the instrument itself. As the Minister has explained, it essentially does two things: first, it corrects some errors and technical problems that exist in the legislation—the statutory instrument—that was passed last year; it is good to see errors corrected. Secondly, it extends the vehicle emissions trading scheme to Northern Ireland, which, as I understand it, is being done with the support, and at the wish, of the Northern Ireland Assembly. As such, these Benches have no objection to raise to the approval of this instrument.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their consideration of this draft Order in Council.

I will respond to the specific points raised. The points about technical adjustments are noted. I beg the forgiveness of the House that some of this stuff about zero-emission vehicles and alternative technologies is very technically complex, and I would forgive technical people for not getting all of it right.

On the general point about 2030 and 2035, the Government are committed to phasing out new cars that rely solely on internal combustion engines by 2030. That means that pure petrol/diesel cars will be phased out and, by 2035, all new cars and vans sold will need to be 100% zero emission. We will be setting out further detail on the requirements for cars and vans sold between 2030 and 2035 in due course. I hope that continued progress on zero-emission vehicles will give people confidence to purchase these vehicles. It is very important that we deal with carbon and achieve consequential good effects on air quality.

My noble friend Lord Berkeley asked: does it matter? He gave his own answer by saying that the sooner the UK was consistent across its nations, the better. This statutory instrument is the means of doing so—so that is really the answer to that. Apart from debating the doubtful use of verbs on the London Underground— I could find several others worse than “non-stopping”; “to platform” is quite bad as well—it is nice to hear that there is no objection. It is nice that there is a considerable degree of agreement, because this rights something that clearly could not be righted at the time.

There is now consensus across the UK that the zero-emission vehicle mandate is the right tool to move our car and van market towards being fully zero-emission in 2035. The UK Government, Scottish Government, Welsh Government and Northern Ireland Executive are in agreement that net zero is a priority for our economies and for our future. This consistency of approach is to the benefit of business, with barriers removed to accessing the Northern Ireland market, and to Northern Irish consumers, who will reap the rewards of zero-emission vehicles, including lower costs of ownership, cleaner air and reduced noise pollution, as the UK continues on its path to being a clean energy superpower.

Motion agreed.

Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 29th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grayling (Con)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to support my noble friend’s amendment but perhaps from a slightly different perspective to his, given his—and indeed the Minister’s—track record, which had a strong focus on London. I believe it is very important to ensure that there is a clear explanation and, frankly, that there are detailed rules about how the interaction takes place around the London boundary, simply because there is a democratic issue here as well.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, made reference to the attempt by the mayor to take control of the Southeastern franchise some years ago. I blocked that, for two reasons. First, there was a significant level of opposition outside London to that transition taking place—the sense that the mayor should not be running services that cross into Kent, Surrey and so forth—including strong opposition from local MPs. Secondly, there is the issue of fragmentation: who operates which depot, how do you divide the franchise in half and so forth? It is important to maintain a system that is simple and as easy to run as possible.

None the less, there is and will always be an issue around how the mayoral responsibility for services that cross the boundary interacts with services operating under the control of shadow Great British Railways and subsequently Great British Railways, how they interact and work together, and how the whole system is managed. While I do not support my noble friend’s level of enthusiasm for devolution because I worry about fragmentation, it is none the less important in this new world to have very clear guidance, rules and methodology about how the system in London will operate with the system that crosses paths with it around the London boundary and, indeed, into the termini in London.

I think my noble friend has put forward an important point here. Although we have a slightly different perspective on this, I very much hope that the Government will adopt this proposal, because I think it is the right one.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill) (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by reminding the Committee that this is a short Bill, simply to bring back the national railway operations into public ownership. This is a popular policy with the public, absolutely necessary to making the railway run properly, and a necessary precursor to a more major Bill next year.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, for this amendment, which would require not a report this time—although he has sought to require many—but Statements to Parliament about the relationship between services in Greater London provided under contract to TfL and those for which the Secretary of State is responsible.

There is no reason to expect the Bill, which allows train operations to transfer from private operators into public ownership, to have any adverse effect whatever on the existing collaboration between operators and TfL. The Bill makes no change to the existing duties on the Secretary of State for Transport and on Transport for London under Section 175 of the Greater London Authority Act 1999 to co-operate and co-ordinate passenger rail services in London. Like many noble Lords in the Committee, I know from my own experience how that works. I think we can all conclude that it has worked very satisfactorily so far and there is no reason why it should not continue.

The Bill will not have any adverse effect on those services: substantially the same staff will be running those trains under public ownership on the national railway network, as they do now, so there should be no concern about a sudden deterioration of service. In fact, I expect it to improve: publicly owned operators will prioritise the interests of passengers, rather than exploiting contractual conditions in pursuit of short-term profit.

The Bill says nothing about the devolution of further passenger rail service to the Mayor of London. It would not prevent further devolution, and nothing I have said would prevent that. If they were devolved, they could be operated in the same way as the current London Overground services are operated, under a concession from Transport for London.

When I said, as the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, quoted, that there is no current plan for further devolution, that was an accurate statement. Of course, it may not be an accurate statement in the future, but when I wrote the letter to him and other noble Lords and Baronesses, it was true. We will see what happens. It is only a few weeks since what the mayor said in July and, if he does have aspirations to operate further services, I am sure there will be a cordial discussion under the auspices of Section 175 to discuss whether and how that is carried out and the costs of doing it.

The noble Lord is also mistaken on Manchester. Certainly, the evolving situation I described with the Mayor of Manchester and Transport for Greater Manchester is that services would be operated not by Network Rail, because that is currently an infrastructure provider, but by a train company. In fact, it is most likely to be Northern Trains, which is already owned by the public sector and has been for four years.

As I have already said, I give a commitment that the future, wider Bill will give a statutory role for combined authority mayors that is better than any they have now. I have just repeated it for the avoidance of doubt. In that case, it is under Section 24 of the 1993 Act. If they were to want to operate train services, this Bill does not alter Section 24 and that would be a discussion that could be had. I described the situation as I understand it currently unfolding; in fact, they do not wish to do that, but the Secretary of State could devolve more under Section 24 if she chose to.

At the moment, if I have counted correctly, the operation of rail services in London is currently the responsibility of eight different franchised operators, plus two more under contract to Transport for London. That is without the long-distance operators whose services start and finish in London but do not otherwise serve the London market directly and, indeed, Network Rail, which is responsible for the physical railway infra- structure. Public ownership and subsequent integration into Great British Railways will simplify all this by bringing the currently franchised services together in ownership in one place. If TfL wishes to discuss or influence the provision of other rail services across Greater London in the future, it will have an easier job of engaging with Great British Railways. It will be assured that the train operators that are performing will be interested in acting in the interests of passengers.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked where I think it is all going. I will come back and answer that on Report.

It was a pleasure to hear the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, talking about the particular circumstances of Bexley, and it is nice to see her in her place. I do not envisage any immediate change to the railway geography of south-east London. I cannot answer for much of the rest of what she said in the way that I once could, as the commissioner of Transport for London, but I am sure that she knows where to go to make the points about the Superloop, ULEZ and the other things she referred to for the benefit of her borough of Bexley.

The noble Lord, Lord Gascoigne, referred to Crossrail 2. It should be evident—I hope it is from what I have now said about Section 175—that, were Crossrail 2 to be promoted and come into effect, it would, like Crossrail 1, be complex, but the outcome would be a significant transfer of services to the mayor, because it would, and hopefully will, eventually take over some national railway services. The ease with which Crossrail has taken over former national railway services in London and transformed them into a coherent service for the benefit not only of London but the national economy would be replicated in Crossrail 2. Nothing in the Bill would change that; nor would it change the way that Crossrail was funded had it been proposed now, or the way Crossrail 2 would be funded if it were proposed in the future.

The answer to a lot of what has been said about the Overground is that the Bill primarily seeks to remedy those parts of the railway network that patently do not work well. I would contend—I have always contended in all my roles and in this one too—that the railway service in London works. It works because it is coherent, and there is no reason for the Bill to interfere with it.

I was very interested to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Grayling. I remember well his position on the devolution of Southeastern services, and he is right that many of them go well beyond the London boundary. There is a democratic issue about how well they serve the areas outside the boundary, and his recollection is correct that at the stage at which it was proposed— I recall it well because I proposed it, even if it was politically advocated by the mayor—it cost more to operate those services separately than it did together. That would be quite a good reason to think carefully about whether a proposition could now be made to do it differently. In a sense, he is making my case because one of the things that we need to have some regard to in a post-Covid railway, with less revenue but similar costs, is the cost of the whole thing. One of the reasons for the proposition in the Bill is to start to sort out the costs of the railway, increase its revenue and improve its performance.

I listened carefully to the remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady Pidgeon, on devolution and I intend to come back to them on Report.

The Government’s plans will improve co-operation, not hinder it, so I see no need for the statement envisaged in the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Moylan. I am sure that all involved will work together to ensure that publicly owned and TfL services can co-exist effectively side by side. On that basis, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I will briefly deal with two points. In answer to the very reasonable question from the noble Baroness, Lady Pidgeon, the reason for a separate London debate is the three different cases that currently exist for the devolution of rail services. One is London, where services are in large measure devolved—not all of them but there is a large measure of devolution that exists. The second is the other large conurbations where devolution of rail services does not exist—Birmingham, Manchester and so forth, with the exception of Liverpool, which we agreed earlier in Committee was a slightly separate case. The third is the local authorities that are too small to have much credibility as operating services on the national rail network, although there might be specific cases. It seemed to me that, even though it was mentioned at the time, London deserved a distinct debate because it is different from the other cases that we debated.

Turning to the Minister’s response, I think we have had some instances of documents that have rewritten themselves during the course of Committee. The latest is the letter which it turns out we had all misinterpreted because the weasel word “current” had not been given sufficient prominence, but which in fact means that there may well be devolution of the operation of rail services to London and elsewhere. That is not quite what it meant when everyone first read it, but there we are. I suppose the Minister will feel he has got away with that.

But what has he got away with when he offers a statutory role? We have a notion of what is meant by statutory role when we turn to the Labour Party document Getting Britain Moving, which says:

“there must also be a statutory role for devolved leaders in governing, managing, planning and developing the rail network”.

Eloquent by its silence is the word “operating”—it is not on offer. Whatever the Minister says may or may currently be the case, and whatever provisions of existing legislation he refers to, it is not going to happen. It is inconsistent with his argument for a single brain, it is not mentioned in the Labour Party policy document as it could have been, and there is not going to be meaningful devolution unless there is a change to the legislation. This may be a very short Bill, as the Minister says, but it is heavily pregnant with possibilities for the future.

With that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 23rd October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, one of the clear attractions of the new system should be increased transparency. There should be no chance that the new authority would be able to hide behind commercial confidentiality. One public body would make life very much easier in terms of national answerability. I do not agree with the mechanism suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, but he is making a valid point. Can the Minister confirm that the passenger standards authority, the passenger body that is going to be the champion of passenger standards, will have the power to investigate fares and report on problems? I gently point out that the Government will no longer be able to blame the train operators. All the blame will now fall on the Government, and passengers will make judgments based on that. It is therefore important that there is a public way for the Government to explain their decisions in relation to train fares and the fare structure overall.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill) (Lab)]

First, I briefly note my intention to write to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, on his points about public investment that I did not manage to address on Monday. I also intend to address later the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, on Monday.

On fares, there is nothing new here. The regulation of fares has always been by government through its contracts with operators, whether public or private, and as far as this Bill is concerned, that will continue.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

I want just to make the point that, as the Minister well knows, the fare system is so complicated that, in practice, people have not been able to understand it adequately in order to make those judgments, and one of the Government’s aims, quite laudably, is to make it simpler. I also point out that the Minister is talking about regulated fares, and I think about half the fares in the market are not regulated.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her intervention. Of course, she is absolutely right. The fare system is far too complex, whether it is regulated fares or unregulated fares. One of the primary purposes of bringing train operations into public ownership is to provide the basis of rationalising that fare system without the associated complications of either compensation to private sector operators or, indeed, their saying that some of the information needed to do that is commercially confidential and hence cannot be used to rationalise the system that nobody understands.

On Amendment 19, the department already holds its public train operating companies to account for their financial management through regular review of their management accounts and business plans, as part of its routine contract management activities. That is equally true in relation to privately owned operators whose costs are funded by taxpayers. This scrutiny supports the monitoring of performance against the Secretary of State’s priority to deliver an affordable and sustainable railway. The amendment refers specifically to the auditing of publicly owned train companies’ accounts. It is already the case that those companies must publish their audited accounts annually, which are available in Companies House, so there is already full transparency of their financial performance and management. The proposed amendment would add little value to the existing scrutiny of their financial performance by DOHL ass shareholder, the Department for Transport’s contracting authority, and their own financial auditors, as well as the public via the public audited accounts. That would be an unnecessary additional cost to be borne by the taxpayer which I cannot support.

Regarding Amendment 20, the department already publishes information on its website about payments made to operators under its rail contracts. The department’s published annual report and accounts also detail the department’s expenditure on each contract, as well as any associated year-end balances in respect of payments made in advance or still due to be paid. The Bill does not change that, so there is no need for the taxpayer to pay for an independent body to report on the same data. As I have said previously, the most significant financial impact of the Bill will be that taxpayers will no longer have to foot the bill for tens of millions of pounds in fees paid to private operators each year for the benefit of their shareholders.

Amendment 23 raises the specific question of whether public ownership will expose the Government to pension liabilities that previously sat with private operators. Under the current national rail contracts, DfT funds the legitimate actual costs of the train operating companies. For example, this includes the net operational costs of running services and the cost of leasing rolling stock and pension contributions.

The noble Lord, Lord Young, asked a specific question on Monday about how the Office for National Statistics might classify publicly owned operators in future. I cannot, of course, answer that question, as future classification decisions are a matter for the independent ONS, not for me or my department. What I can do is to confirm the current classification of the DfT contracted operators, which are all currently classified as public non-financial corporations, including the four DOHL-owned operators. I can also confirm what has happened previously when a service is transferred from private to public ownership. For example, following the transfer of services into DOHL, the ONS recently considered the classification of TransPennine trains, and concluded that they should remain classified as a public non-financial corporation. That fact that these publicly owned operators are classified in this way, along with the privately owned operators, means that their costs already impact the public finances. For example—and this is particularly relevant to Amendment 25—both private and publicly owned operators’ rolling stock lease payments already come out of the department’s resource budget.

Turning to pensions, I cannot agree with those who assert that the franchising model left responsibility for funding pension liabilities entirely with the private sector. Even under the form of franchising that was in place before the pandemic, pension costs were to a substantial extent a long-term liability for the public sector. First, this is because the franchising system meant the bidder simply priced any changes in costs into their bids at reletting, changing the amount of subsidy payable to the operator or the premium receivable by Government. This meant that the burden of any increases in pension costs arising during the term of the contract would, at the point of retendering, be passed to the taxpayer. Secondly, in the more recent franchise competitions the department was required to share the risk of any adverse movements in pension deficit recovery payments, as that had become a risk that the private operators stated they were unable to bear. The Bill therefore does not materially change the Government’s level of exposure to liabilities.

On the noble Lord’s second amendment regarding pension liabilities, in previous transfers to DOHL the transferring staff have remained within their existing section of the Railways Pension Scheme at the point of transfer. Railways Pension Scheme contribution rates will not change when services transfer from private to public sector operation and, as mentioned a moment ago, the cost of employer pension contributions is already borne by the Government under the terms of the existing contracts.

The noble Lord may also find it helpful to know that the department already reports in its annual report and accounts the employer’s share of the net pension scheme surplus or deficit, the employer’s share of pension scheme assets and the employer’s share of pension scheme liabilities.

In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, transparency will be enhanced by public ownership. In respect of the question about the passenger standards authority, I am afraid it is too early to say what it will and will not do. That is why we are going to consult about its duties in order to make sure that it represents passengers’ interests in the best way possible.

In view of these observations, noting in particular that the costs of public sector operations are already in the public domain, I urge the noble Lord not to press these amendments.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I may have expressed myself very poorly when I presented these amendments, but I think it is fair to say—I do not mean to sound overcritical—that the Minister has misconceived all of them, or at least the three that I spent some time on. So perhaps the House will indulge me if I simply run through once again the points that I was hoping to make but obviously have not done so very successfully.

I shall start with the remark about pensions. I was not asking the question, “Who funds the pension contributions?” That is an interesting question but one to which I already had the answer, so I did not feel that I needed to ask it. I was asking a specific question about where the balance sheet liability lies, which is a very different question. Are the accumulated liabilities, including unfunded liabilities, now going to score effectively as government debt—the whole package, not the payment year by year? It is the difference, if you like, between the balance sheet and the profit and loss. I have asked a question about balance sheet and the Minister has answered a question about profit and loss. I do not expect to get anything further out of him today but, once he has had a chance to reflect on my comments, he may want to write to me because it is a point that needs to be properly explored and indeed, I suspect, will be returned to in relation to leases when my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham takes the matter up later.

On the question of fares being charged, I take the Minister back to the pre-Covid period when the system under which we operate at the moment was functioning in the way that was expected—Covid of course destroyed and damaged the operation of that system. It is true that not all the fares but a large number of them were set by the Government, but the Government in that case had no interest whatsoever in allowing the train operating companies to make super profits or to exploit passengers who were effectively captive. It will be a different matter when the company operating the trains is a subsidiary of the Department for Transport, and any surplus—we must bear in mind that there are railway lines in this country that generate surpluses—will accrue to the department and therefore presumably to HM Treasury. I put it as a counterfactual question to the Minister: does he believe that, if passport issuance or visa issuance were in the hands of the private sector, the Home Office would allow the private sector to set such outrageously high fees and keep the profits? Of course it would not. The only reason why the Home Office can set such very high fees for a captive audience is that it can keep the profits, or at least they score against the expenditure of the Home Office. It has a financial interest in super returns, which is not true if the super returns are to be retained by the private sector, as was the case under the system that we are currently operating under when it was effectively running. So I do not think the Minister has quite grasped my point.

A similar question arises in relation to costs. He has explained—and I do not deny for a moment—that the department publishes information on what it pays to the train operating companies under its contracts. I am not asking: what do they pay? I am asking: is it efficiently spent? Once it becomes part of the department, there is no interest in demonstrating that efficiency has been achieved if political interests overwrite that. There will be no way of knowing with confidence whether efficiency is being achieved unless there is some sort of independent monitor.

It is possible that having reflected on my closing remarks the Minister wants to take these matters up in correspondence, or we can come back to them on Report. But I think his responses—and I blame myself for this—have failed to understand the points I was getting at. I thought they were reasonably clear but obviously I did not do a very good job. With that, and with the leave of the Committee, I would like to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, there are of course some excellent examples of open access operators and some very successful ones, but I am a bit sceptical. We have a Government who are so opposed to competition on the railways that even very good train operators, such as Greater Anglia, have to be removed as a priority. I am sceptical that the Government would be keen to encourage further open access operators. I think I drew attention to this in our debates on Monday. I feel it is illogical that the Government are putting an end to the train operators that have fully rounded franchises but will tolerate open access. Open access is, in reality, capitalism red in tooth and claw, in comparison with the role of train operating companies managing the franchises they have.

The Government here are set up as a judge and a jury over open access operators and whether more will be allowed. Can the Minister tell us how the judgment will be made on future open access operators, or tell us with total frankness that we have what we have and are unlikely to get any more?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The Bill before the House is specifically about the ownership of services currently operated under contract to the Secretary of State, Scottish Ministers or Welsh Ministers. Transferring and retaining these services in public ownership will not affect open access operators or prevent them running as they do now. It is therefore not necessary, as in Amendment 24, to require the Government to lay a report on the impact of public ownership on open access operators, given that this Bill will not affect the rights of those operators to access the network and run services. I emphasise that as part of the wider railways Bill, any proposed changes to access arrangements and the body that decides them will, of course, be subject to consideration and debate by your Lordships’ House before they are implemented. I beg for some patience in this debate.

Turning to Amendment 27, which requires the ORR to produce an independent report on access, I again reassure the House that under the present public ownership Bill, the ORR will continue its role in relation to access decisions. There is therefore no need for this amendment; an independent function is already in place that will decide on access to ensure there is no disadvantage to non-publicly owned operators. We will set out further detail on GBR roles and responsibilities in the coming months. Given those reassurances and that this Bill does not affect the rights of open access operators to run services, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, once again I am being deflected more than answered. I did not suggest that existing open access operators were going to be closed down. In fact, it says quite explicitly in the biblical document Getting Britain Moving that current

“independent operators (such as Hull Trains and Lumo) … will remain”.

I take it that the existing operators are guaranteed to remain, at least as far as the current terms of their arrangements are concerned.

I find it very worrying that the Minister cannot say whether his long-term vision includes allowing the ORR to make these decisions, or taking it, which I understood is very much the logic of his Bill, into Great British Railways. It simply is not enough to say that this can be deferred. Open access operators that might want to bid for new services—not the existing ones, I grant you—are now going to be entering a period with a very chilling effect, because they will not know whether open access is going to be welcomed in the future. They will not know, when the new Bill comes forward in 18 months’ time, whether they are going to be welcomed or turned away. That is a direct consequence of this Bill and not something that can simply be deferred on the grounds that it will all be wrapped up in 18 months or so.

I find it very unfortunate that the Minister cannot give a franker and more candid answer on the Government’s intentions at this stage. I fear that the effects for passengers of the measure in front of us are therefore going to be detrimental, even in the short term. With that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not want to reply to the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, because I would be here all night picking holes in every point he made in reference to me.

Perhaps I may help the Minister out. The noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, talked about the liabilities of Network Rail. The composition of government debt published by the ONS includes the liabilities of Network Rail, but the assets acquired with that debt are excluded. That means that the government debt is overstated. In a balance sheet, you will have assets and liabilities. In the ONS approach, only Network Rail’s liabilities are included in the debt. I understand that, for quite a long while, the Treasury has been looking at reconfiguring the composition of public debt, and I very much hope that, soon, it will do the proper thing by either taking off the debt altogether from the ONS numbers or including Network Rail’s assets as well.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who contributed to this discussion. First, I should say that the objective of this limited Bill before the Committee remains to unify track and train, to provide better services to passengers, to reduce the cost of the railway and to increase the railway’s income. The phrase I would use to start with is, “We are where we are”.

The noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, referred to Network Rail. I am very familiar with its arrangements post being put back on the Government’s balance sheet. All I can say to the noble Lord is that managing it is and has been a difficult job. However, it has still managed to make significant investment in the railway infrastructure of Great Britain. In some ways, its exposure to being in the public sector did it a great deal of good. I was paid significantly less to chair it than my predecessor was; its chief executive is paid significantly less than any of his predecessors and to my mind, he does a very good job. The organisation is a good deal more frugal than it used to be, yet it still does some very good things in operating the railway infrastructure.

The noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, knows that Chiltern was always an outlier. There was no other plausible large-scale investment in railway infrastructure by a train operating company; certainly, there has been no recent interest in it. If you looked at the owners of the train operating companies now, you would see that their balance sheets simply would not support it.

Of course, the noble Lord knows that I cannot predict what the Office for National Statistics will or will not say. Although the suggestion is that, after six years, LNER was still capable of being put back in the private sector, there was absolutely no evidence that it or Northern, which was in public ownership for four years, was being prepared at all. There was also no move in the previous Government’s department to do so. Nevertheless, there was no change in the status of the public accounts of those companies. The noble Lord may speculate that there might be in future, with these arrangements, but I could equally assert that experience suggests that there will not be.

My noble friend Lord Sikka made a further point about the treatment of the assets and liabilities of Network Rail. I will write to both him and the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, about that.

On the other hand, I recognise completely the passion with which my noble friends Lord Sikka and Lord Hanworth spoke about the rolling stock companies. Again, we are where we are. I heard my noble friends’ arguments with interest, but the Government will not buy back the rolling stock companies. Great British Railways will enable a longer-term view of the rolling stock market and it will reduce the margins it needs to make. Everybody is right to say that rolling stock lasts for 30 to 35 years, but a railway that is more accurately able to predict how long that rolling stock should last and where it should be used will reduce the uncertainty of relatively short-term leases. It will also significantly reduce the cost of those leases and will actually enhance competition in the market. We will see how that market evolves over time.

Having said all that, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. The noble Lord, Lord Sikka, said that the Treasury would like to redefine what is public expenditure and what is not. I am sure that is the case—it would like to get some liabilities off the balance sheet. The whole point of having an independent ONS is so that the Treasury, led by politicians, cannot adjust the figures and the liabilities to suit its convenience.

What has not come out in this debate is that there is competition between the roscos to supply the wants of the train operating companies. Originally, there were three, now there are four, and there have been two recent entrants. The competition between them has driven down the costs. The Government, who on Monday spent time trying to persuade foreign investors to invest in infrastructure, will have been a little disappointed to hear the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, being less than complimentary about the investments that they have made in some important parts of the infrastructure.

Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 23rd October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I support the intention of the amendments in this group. There is one amendment in the name of my noble friend Lady Pidgeon, Amendment 16, which the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, has signed, as I have signed his Amendment 12. Unlike him, I want to talk about devolution in Wales and Scotland, because that issue is very important. Railways cross borders; that point is addressed by the noble Lord’s amendment. I agree with his idea that there should be proper formal consultation with the devolved Governments—by the way, I can assure him that the new Council of the Nations and Regions should have a crowded agenda, because many devolved issues have been building up over a long period.

Let us look at the case of Wales. If, for example, you travel from Cardiff to Wrexham, you find yourself crossing between Wales and England; your start and end points are in Wales, but the middle of the journey is in England. That complexity needs to be built in. Devolution of rail powers to Scotland is pretty clear, but in Wales it is—I hope—a work in progress. I will explain to noble Lords why I say, “I hope”. The Welsh Government do not have powers over rail infrastructure. The operation of the railway in Wales is the responsibility of the Welsh Government, but infrastructure planning and funding remain with Network Rail. This is a cause of considerable frustration; the Minister answered a question about it earlier today.

This frustration is largely because Wales gets under 2% of total infrastructure spend in the UK, while having 5% of the population and more than 5% of the land mass. Our rail systems in Wales are in such a poor state, so there is a good argument that we should be getting more than 5%. The failure to allow Wales the Barnett consequentials of HS2 just rubs salt into the wound, and it is a lot of salt—£4 billion of it. I urge the Government to rethink the situation and the tendency set out in the Minister’s letter, because surely there is no hard and fast rule on this. Back in 2007, the Labour Government of the UK made noises which suggested they were willing to offer Wales control of infrastructure. Unfortunately, at that point, the Welsh Government were not keen to take it on, but I think they would be very keen now.

I am keen that this Bill does not in any way prevent further devolution. Transport for Wales, which is owned by the Welsh Government, is investing widely. Despite problems in mid-Wales, services are improving, and passenger numbers were up 27% in the last three months alone. That is a sign of progress. Can the Minister explain why the Welsh Government might not be considered capable of doing the rest of the job?

As my noble friend Lady Pidgeon has said, Transport for Greater Manchester, which I recently met representatives of as well, is enthusiastic about its success and devolution plans. They spoke to me about the Bee Network, which has lower costs than what went before, higher levels of punctuality and higher numbers of passengers. It is a real success story. They have firm plans to devolve eight rail lines within the next four years. I gather that they may be looking at some form of public/private partnership. That is the sort of thing referred to in the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, in Monday’s debate.

Can the Minister specifically reassure us that the aims of the declaration of intent that Greater Manchester signed with the previous Government still hold good? Can he specifically reassure us that there is nothing in this Bill that will prevent Greater Manchester’s ambitions being implemented? We on these Benches want to go further. Where Greater Manchester leads, why should not Birmingham, Liverpool or several other places follow? Shutting off the devolution of rail is at odds with the Government’s plans to give local authorities more powers over buses, for instance. It does not sit comfortably together.

I have two pleas for the Government. First, as I said on Monday, I ask them please to leave their options open. Do not close off avenues in the Bill: allow for unexpected events in the future. Secondly, it is illogical to allow open access operators to pick off rail routes, and it is illogical to encourage local authorities to have more control over buses but not to encourage them to fully integrate their local transport services by having control over trains and railways as well.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill) (Lab)]

My Lords, I remind noble Lords that the Bill is, in my view at least, narrowly focused on allowing the further public operation of existing franchised railway operations currently in the private sector. Many in this House will know that I was the commissioner of Transport for London when the original Overground was proposed and established. Some of the details of its success are extremely familiar to me and give me a glow of pride and satisfaction whenever anybody mentions them. I was also there when the Overground was expanded—in fact, some Members of this House could have allowed it to expand further but chose to oppose it on the grounds that, for a mayor of a different political colour, that might not suit the then-Government’s aims. I say all that because devolution is really important. I have no intention of closing it off, and neither does the Bill—but it has to be subject to the effective operation of the railway network as a whole. I will come back to that in a moment.

I will speak first to Amendments 31 to 33 and 37 of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, Amendment 34 of the noble Lords, Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Moylan, and Amendment 36 of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. These amendments would empower the Secretary of State and the Scottish and Welsh Ministers to award contracts to companies owned by various local authorities. Amendment 16 of the noble Baronesses, Lady Pidgeon and Lady Randerson, and the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, aims to provide opportunities for local authorities to take responsibility for services in their areas before contracts are awarded to public sector operators.

Amendment 46 of the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, would require another report, this time on whether public ownership makes it more or less likely that further services will be devolved by means of exemptions granted under Section 24 of the Railways Act 1993.

Amendment 50, also of the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, is another attempt to delay transfers to public ownership, as it makes the establishment of new regional partnership boards the trigger for the provisions of the Bill to come into force. The noble Lord, Lord Moylan, mentioned shadow Great British Railways. This is not a statutory entity but a preparation for Great British Railways; it is not a mechanism to do its job in advance of the creation of the body itself.

In line with the spirit of all these amendments, the Government are absolutely committed to strengthening the role for local communities in shaping the design and delivery of passenger rail services in their areas. Our plans for reform will make this a great deal easier for them, because they will need to engage with only one organisation—Great British Railways—instead of having to deal separately with Network Rail and multiple train operating companies.

The noble Lord, Lord Moylan, reminded us of the manifesto. We have already made it clear that our railways Bill will include a statutory role for the devolved Governments and mayoral combined authorities in governing, managing, planning and developing the rail network, and there is absolutely no intention to enact rail reform without that statutory role. We are committed to a full and open discussion on that role, and how it will work, as we refine our plans for the railways Bill in the coming weeks, and that will be included in the published consultation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

I would be grateful if the Minister answered a couple of questions arising from the statement he has made, for which I am very grateful. He said that passengers do not want to be confused by different types of services and operators, but from talking to people who have been involved in TfL and Merseyrail, I get the impression that they think they are rather good. I am not sure they would agree that they would be better if they were run from London by some centralised organisation telling the people of Liverpool or Manchester how many trains they can run.

It all comes back to who actually gets the revenue from the train fares and who pays for the trains, which will probably affect what the local mayors can ask for. They might want to see more trains, but if they are going to have to ask central government for an extra train, that will get quite difficult. I do not think the Minister has answered the question of the money that will be saved through this amendment and the new structure. We have not seen how much money it is going to save or how much extra revenue it might generate. I look forward to his comments.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for his intervention. I do not disagree with him at all: those railway services are rather good. I did say that I was rather proud of the Overground, and from a distance I still am; it is a rather good service. However, there is a difference. Those services operate very largely within the Mayor of London’s geographical area, and the fares at the extremes do not differ. In Liverpool, I believe, they are wholly within the Liverpool City Region, but if not, the same applies. Consideration has to be given to consistency when the services stretch beyond those boundaries. That has been, and is capable of being, managed well.

The points my noble friend makes about who pays for enhancements—both the revenue costs of enhancements, and of extra trains if they are needed—and who gets the revenue from that are all subjects on which we are in harmonious discussion with the Mayor of Greater Manchester and Transport for Greater Manchester. It is possible to enhance railway passenger services in conurbations and elsewhere without having ownership of them, in circumstances where the proliferation of ownership may well create other costs. In the previous debate in Committee, I referred to the number of train crew depots in Newcastle. My recollection is that there are currently four, all of which have managers, supervisors and clerical staff. That is not the sort of proliferation of basic on-costs that we want to see in the rest of the system.

We are having a very practical discussion in Manchester about the eight lines that the mayor wants to specify. I suspect that, at the end of the day, when we reach an agreement, as I believe we will, the services the mayor wants will be presented as part of the Bee Network. I expect them to look consistent across Manchester, in the different modes that Transport for Greater Manchester controls. That is exactly the same effect as we had with London Overground and Merseyrail. We will have to bridge those gaps without creating further cost and confusing passengers.

Amendment 43, in the name of my noble friends Lords Snape, Liddle and Berkeley, requires the Secretary of State to produce an assessment of whether passenger services could be run by devolved authorities before any contract is awarded to a public sector company or any private sector franchise is extended temporarily by the Secretary of State. As I have said already, it is not our intention to devolve the operation of further services to local government as part of this process. Our intention is to end the failing franchise system and move to a public ownership model, which will then allow us more easily to reduce fragmentation and create a culture focused on delivering for passengers and taxpayers, not private shareholders.

It is deeply important that local leaders have greater influence over what services are run in their areas. That is why we are engaging with them to develop a statutory role for mayoral combined authorities in the rail network, which will become part of the wider Bill. As I have said, further devolution of services risks including fragmentation, but as I have also said, it is not ruled out by the Bill.

I turn to Amendments 12 and 13 from the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, which require the Government to consult with the Council of the Nations and Regions and the Prime Minister’s newly appointed envoy before transferring cross-border services to the public sector. This amendment is not necessary. The Government regularly engage devolved Governments on cross-border services. Both the Scottish and Welsh Governments are in favour of transferring rail services into the public sector, and we have worked collaboratively with Scottish and Welsh Ministers on the proposals in the Bill. Consultation will continue to take place as further services are transferred into public sector operation.

In addition, the Council of the Nations and Regions has been set up by the Prime Minister to foster positive collaboration with the devolved Governments. Clearly, we do not require a legislative amendment to encourage collaboration when the council exists to do just that, and I am sure that the newly appointed envoy will further facilitate that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, referred to South Western Railway and in particular to the line between Salisbury and Exeter. I am confident that it will get better when South Western Railway comes into public ownership and we can get much closer liaison between infrastructure and operations and their management.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, referred to Welsh ownership of infrastructure. I am not sure that she is right, bearing in mind our experience with the valley lines, in saying that they aspire to own the infra- structure, but the Bill would not prevent that.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, might want to note that Keith Williams, who he mentioned and who I mentioned on Monday, publicly endorsed the rail manifesto published by the Labour Party before the election. I will say no more about that.

With thanks to all noble Lords for this debate, I urge them not to press their amendments to this relatively narrow Bill, but I will reflect further on everything I have heard about devolution today.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton of Epsom, for this amendment, which would require the Secretary of State and the Scottish and Welsh Ministers to consider each public sector operator’s progress in preparing for driverless trains before awarding a contract to that operator. The amendment appears to be of limited practical impact, as it would not require the franchising authority to do anything in light of the outcome of the assessment. That said, I understand from the noble Lord’s explanation that it was intended as a probing amendment, and I take it in that spirit.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, for his acknowledgement of my small amount of knowledge of railway operation, and that part of it that I appear to have transferred seamlessly to him. I have tried to educate him in that manner and, clearly, he has been a good pupil. I did not try to extend that to his political beliefs because at the time, when I was educating him in the operation of transport, I had no reason to do so. I will have a go at that some other time.

I also know about the operation of the Docklands Light Railway, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton of Epsom, because I was responsible for its operation for nearly 10 years. As the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, said, every train has an attendant on it. They do not sit at the front. People who enjoy sitting at the front—including me—do so instead. More seriously, the attendant closes the doors, to ensure that they are safely closed, and can drive the train if they need to.

The Government have no plans for the rollout of driverless trains on the national railway network. Considerable technological development work would need to be undertaken to make this a viable proposition. There is some practical experience of automatic train operation in the United Kingdom—on several Tube lines and some on the national railway network too, such as on the core Thameslink route running through central London, where this system is vital in enabling the high frequency of service. There is also some limited semi-automatic operation on the Elizabeth line. However, in both cases, it is not truly a driverless system as the operation of these trains still requires a driver to be present while the train is in passenger service, to operate doors and initiate dispatch.

As a practical operator, and a passenger, I am very sympathetic to the view of the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, concerning staff on trains. From my experience at Transport for London, I can say that Tube trains which are automatically driven have a driver because somebody has to close the doors, somebody has to be able to stop the train in an emergency and somebody has to at least attempt to fix it if it goes wrong. On a train with up to 1,000 people on it, it makes sense for that person to have some space to work in and even more sense for them to sit at the front of the train, where they can see where it is going. That is the philosophy which we adopted.

The noble Lord, Lord Moylan, is correct. The real reason for that signalling system is to enable more trains to run more closely. My erstwhile colleagues on the national railway network still look disconcerted at the thought of one Victoria line train leaving a platform and before the last carriage has departed into the tunnel, the cab of the next one arrives, and the slower that they do it, the closer they get together. That is why you want signalling systems of this sort. That is the reason for the application—not the proposed application but the actual application—of the European train control system on the east coast main line that is currently being implemented. It has been funded by government. It involves several contractors and many UK jobs, and it is done precisely for the purpose of increasing the capacity of the line, enabling the trains to run closer together, and is a very effective business model. As locomotives and trains are fitted with that equipment in the UK, it will become progressively cheaper to equip new lines and it will improve train capacity on all of them.

I suggest that, realistically, the deployment of genuinely driverless trains on the national railway network is a long-term proposition for which passenger safety, practical feasibility and a business case are far from proven. However, there is a range of on-train systems short of driverless operation that can be deployed to improve train service performance and the overall efficiency of the system. These include relatively tried and tested systems such as forward-facing CCTV, which can be used to monitor trackside risks such as excessive vegetation growth; systems to monitor the condition of track and overhead wires; driver advisory systems, which help improve fuel efficiency and punctuality; and more cutting-edge technologies such as the automatic train operation that I mentioned.

Sadly, as a result of the fragmented system that we have, even relatively tried and tested systems have not been deployed systematically across the network. Instead, they have been implemented piecemeal according to the whim of individual operators as they have procured and specified their requirements for new or upgraded train fleets. A clear benefit of public ownership and the future consolidation of track and train within Great British Railways will be the chance to take a consistent approach to the deployment of existing technologies and the development and testing of new innovations right across the system. GBR can set a clear long-term direction for future rolling-stock innovation across the system, with consequential beneficial effects on reliability and the costs of the entire railway.

I will not make specific statements in favour of particular innovations or technologies as part of the debate on this Bill. However, I acknowledge the usefulness of technological development that the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton of Epsom, referred to, and agree with the noble Lord, Lord Ranger, that innovation and technological development have a significant part to play in delivering the best possible services for passengers at the least possible cost to taxpayers and farepayers. I emphasise that our future plans for the railway are aimed at creating the conditions in which innovation can flourish, within both GBR and the much wider private sector supply chain upon which GBR will depend. On that basis, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I am most grateful to everybody who has contributed to this debate. I point out that my amendment asks for driverless trains, not “staffless” trains. I was not necessarily suggesting that there should be nobody on the train at all. As was pointed out, on the Docklands Light Railway there is always someone on the train.

My noble friend Lord Snape—he is not really my noble friend, but I regard him as a good chum—seems to be a bit reactionary about all this. I would not describe him as a Luddite because that would be rather tasteless, but the technology is coming down the road. It is doubling every two years and will overtake all of us. We might as well prepare for it. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, we have heard some very powerful and moving speeches, based on their own personal experience, from the noble Baronesses, Lady Brinton and Lady Grey-Thompson. I feel it would almost be impertinent of me to try to add to what they are saying, given how rich and deep their experience is of travelling on the railways as passengers who are confined to wheelchairs. They also spoke, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and others, of those with other forms of disability, including those affected in their sight and their hearing.

However, if I were to add anything of any great substance, it would probably be along the lines of the excellent speech made by my noble friend Lord Moynihan, who clearly set out a programme—a challenging and demanding programme, admittedly, but one that should be embraced by the Government and by Great British Railways—for improving the experience of disabled passengers on the railway. It is very important for us to hear what the Minister will have to say in response to that. I know that he personally is very sympathetic to the experience of disabled passengers and the difficulties they have. However, although I do not make this as a personal remark, Network Rail as an organisation has been making similar noises for a long time, yet the difficulties continue—perhaps not always the same difficulties, and there are some improvements from time to time, but none the less the difficulties continue, and here we are today, hearing these speeches. I look forward to what the Minister has to say.

I was interested in the amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Market, in relation to the passenger standards authority. We have heard too little in our Committee debates so far about the role and purpose of that authority. It is promised in the document Getting Britain Moving, but what scope it will have as a strong voice for passengers—that is how it is described—and how it will be much in advance of the existing passenger representative bodies, we have yet to learn. It would be helpful if the Minister could explain his vision for the passenger standards authority. I hope we do not have to have that deferred until we hear about the next Bill coming down the line at us, because I think it is what people want to hear.

I have an amendment of my own in this group. It will not take me a great time to speak to it. It relates to something else that we all want to know about: discount fares. Perhaps I should declare that I am the holder of a senior railcard—I hear a certain hum around the Chamber that suggests, to my surprise, that I may not be alone in that—but there is a multiplicity of other railcards too. If you click the button on the website that says, “Apply a railcard discount to this fare”, you will find a drop-down box containing a whole list of the various railcards that are available. I think passengers want to know that those railcards are going to continue to be available to them in the new system.

One of the difficulties that the Government have—indeed, that we all have—is that we are told, “We’ll pass this Bill and then everything is, so to speak, frozen until we get the next Bill”. As I have said repeatedly, and perhaps I have bored the House by saying it, simply getting the next Bill does not change anything. Change has to follow the Bill, and change is itself very time-consuming to implement. So, even on a good timetable for the Government, we are talking about four or five years before we see change, yet we are getting the impression of life being frozen in the meantime. Hence, we get pleas from the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for something to be done about ticketing in the meantime. We all want to know, not just on ticketing but on other matters, what is going to happen in the meantime when, in a sense, no one is in charge because shadow Great British Railways will have been set up but it will have no powers. We will be awaiting Great British Railways and things will not actually be happening.

To come back to my own amendment, that situation applies also to discounted fares. Are they to continue as they are? If they are to be changed—and there may be an argument for change; it may be that a new one has to be added or some have to be deleted, merged or changed in some other way—what would be the mechanism for doing that? I do not mean simply the legal mechanism, because that exists already and it is not being abolished, but who is the driving force behind that? What is the machine that is going to run that sort of thing and make the decisions? We would like to know about all those things. We want some assurance about their continuation but, more importantly, we would like an understanding about the change and the directing mind in this transition period, which could go on for several years.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, for the remarks that he has just made. He talks of delay and nothing happening. One of the reasons why I personally am here is that I have been waiting six years for rail reform and, in the end, when I was asked, I volunteered to see whether I could move it forward, because it has taken a very long time. Not much has happened since the timetable crisis of 2018 and the report that Keith Williams wrote.

I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Brinton, Lady Grey-Thompson and Lady Randerson, for Amendment 17, which is supported also by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan. I absolutely recognise the need to address the passenger experience, and I know that my noble friend Lady Blake, who took the Second Reading, recognises it too. Improving accessibility on the railways is a key priority for the Government and something that the Secretary of State and I are personally committed to. We know that the assistance that passengers receive too often falls short of what they deserve and what they have every right to expect.

I was going to list a range of areas where things need to change, but I am embarrassed to do so because so many speakers in this debate have listed them themselves. All I can do is acknowledge that I have heard the list quite clearly. We know that we need to do better, and it hurts me that the public service that I care about fails so regularly to look after people in the way that it ought to. I personally—and the Secretary of State is in the same position—will do my best to do differently in future.

Many of these issues are, frankly, best solved under public ownership, as the problems that have arisen are a direct result of the current fragmented system. For example, on the specification of new trains, which the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, and others referred to, a guiding mind will take an approach to a greater consistency of design and improve the outcomes for disabled passengers.

In addition, it has been explained, more eloquently than I can do, how many apps there are, how weak they are and how they fail to work. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, took me through, and showed me a huge litany of things that are wrong with, a variety of apps, all of which she needs to make quite simple journeys. I am terribly embarrassed by that. Why should we need so many different electronic devices to deliver such a relatively poor service and outcome in such circumstances? That is an obvious case where consistency is desirable. I referred earlier today to not having a proliferation of train operators, and this is one of the reasons not to do so. We do not want everyone inventing their own process; we want one consistent process, designed with the people who use it, not done for them and not delivered to them after it is done. I have heard the experiences of the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and others of getting something that they wanted but then discovering it did not do what they wanted.

I contend that one of the clearest reasons for the Bill, which seeks to take train operations back into public ownership progressively, is to make those sorts of improvements a great deal easier to deliver in future. Public ownership and control give us the best platform possible to do that. I appreciate the engagement that I have had to date, especially with the noble Baronesses, Lady Brinton and Lady Grey-Thompson. I believe I have offered a meeting to both of them— I hope I have, but that is done for me—and we will have that before Report. That is not an explanation; it is more of an apology, but I hope that for now it will allow them to withdraw their amendment.

HS2: Purchased Land

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have in respect of land already purchased for HS2 north of Birmingham.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government are thoroughly reviewing the position they have inherited before setting out more detailed plans in due course. This includes our position on HS2 phase 2 safeguarding and on the land that was previously acquired for HS2’s cancelled phases. Any land acquired for phase 2 that is no longer required will be sold in line with Treasury rules through a disposal programme.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, as my noble friend the Minister knows, when Rishi Sunak cancelled the northern leg of HS2, he did so in the full knowledge that substantial sums of money had already been spent. Can my noble friend tell me his estimate of precisely how much had been spent before the cancellation? Further, so that money is not entirely wasted, can he give the House a clear assurance, which I am not sure he gave in his Answer, that the Government will at least protect the route of the line to Manchester, including retaining land that has already been purchased? I am sure he would agree that, in so doing, he will make it much easier for any future Government—this one, I hope—to complete the project, which should never have been cancelled in the first place.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for his supplementary question. As reported by the National Audit Office, by March 2024 £2.3 billion had been spent on phase 2 which, as he says, was cancelled by the previous Government. No property on the hastily cancelled phase 2a has yet been disposed of. The Government are carefully considering what to do. He will know as I do that railway infrastructure lasts 150 or more years, so the right thing is to have a considered long-term plan for the benefit of the economic growth, jobs and housing in this country.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, nobody knows better than the Minister the importance of capacity as far as that rail line is concerned—particularly the capacity from Handsacre to Crewe, the legislation for which has already gone through this House. Is there a time limit on that legislation, as there sometimes is on planning permissions, or does that legislation stand good for a Government who wish to concern themselves seriously with a capacity that is so vital on our railways, if we are to shift freight from road to rail?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for his question, and I recognise, as he does, the capacity limitations of the west coast main line north of Handsacre. There is a time limit; I cannot offhand say what it is, but I can certainly write to the noble Lord. The Government intend to work out what to do and to say what they will do before any expiry of those powers.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

Can the Minister tell the House whether land acquired in this way, where it is to be disposed of, will be offered back to its original owners? Can he comment on interviews that I have heard, where people have been offered the opportunity to buy back the land but at prices considerably higher than they were given when the land was compulsorily acquired from them?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

My Lords, I know there is a process to be followed. I will have to write to the noble Lord to explain that process in detail and on the allegation that people have been asked to pay more for their land when it has been offered back than they were offered in the first place. I will do so.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister will know that since the cancellation of HS2, the mayors of Greater Manchester and the West Midlands have collaborated in commissioning and producing a report for the construction on a similar alignment of what is referred to as the “Midlands-North West Rail Link” at considerably lower cost than HS2 would be. Can the Minister give the House an absolute assurance that no land will be sold that would be necessary for the construction of that proposed rail link until the Government have had the time to assess it and give it full consideration?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I am aware of the report that the noble Lord refers to. It is an interesting report. We recognise the concerns about connectivity between Birmingham, Manchester and the north of England. We will consider advice and engage with the mayors and the detail of the report and give ourselves time to do that before any precipitate action is taken on the land concerned.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that building a modern railway should surely include level boarding, in order to make disability access available to everyone? Does he therefore share my concern that many of the stations planned on HS2 were not to have level boarding? In particular, can he reassure us that the Government’s review will look at level boarding access at Old Oak Common station, which will be a major point on the route?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. I am as aware as she is that level boarding is a really important consideration for many people, including those with disabilities. However, even in respect of HS2, it is a complicated subject because there are relatively few HS2 stations and, as it is now configured, those trains will serve many stations on the conventional railway network, at which platforms have been at differing heights for as long as they have been built, in some cases going back to the 1840s. However, the point she raises is really important; the point she raises about Old Oak Common is important, and the point about Old Oak Common is equally complicated, because Old Oak Common will not merely serve the new HS2 trains in their new station—at which level boarding will be relatively simple—but will also serve trains on the conventional railway network on both main and relief lines out of Paddington, which have themselves several different floor heights. We need to crack this problem, and I am very sympathetic to the point raised by the noble Baroness, but it is more complicated than it might sound. I will give her the assurance that she wants that we are actively considering it, because building new railway stations is very expensive and takes a long time and we should try to get it right.

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

My Lords, on 31 January 2017 I put an amendment down in this House to the HS2 Bill which, if passed, would have stopped it there and then and saved us all an awful lot of trouble. Some 25 of your Lordships understood and supported me; unfortunately, the Bill that went through resulted in the chaos that we have known, confirming that the project was never a good idea. It is hugely expensive at the expense of the NHS among other things—

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

This issue warrants quite a little bit of talking; it is the biggest one and everybody in the country thinks it is nonsense. Here is my question for the Minister: can he please do his best with an impossible task, keep us fully updated and make sure that everybody who has been affected by this travesty gets the fairest possible treatment?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

Yes.

[Baroness Smith of Llanfaes (PC)]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that the Government will correct a long-standing injustice that this has starved the Welsh public purse for far too long? Does he acknowledge that HS2 is an England-only project, and will His Majesty’s Government ensure that Wales receives the £4 billion of consequentials owed to the Welsh Government, as Welsh Government Ministers and the Secretary of State for Wales support?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I doubt the noble Baroness’s allegation about support. It is a serious issue, but it is about the allocation of funding. I have answered these questions before, and the position remains the same.

Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 21st October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 7 and 9, which together constitute this group. Both are concerned with what the Government say they intend to be the effect of the Bill: the improvement of passenger services. Again, they are largely probing amendments, although we would expect the Bill to be amended, if not with a purpose clause, as proposed earlier by my noble friend Lord Gascoigne, then at least with measures of the character contained in these two amendments, which seek to set a safety net, in effect, in different ways, for the services being provided.

Amendment 7 would have the effect that the relevant franchising authority must give to the Office of Rail and Road—it could be to some other trustworthy and credible body, such as the Department for Transport, if it is not the franchising authority—an assessment that the company that will take over the franchise is capable of doing so. People might ask: what company? The company that will take over the franchise as proposed by this Bill will be a shell company—an off-the-shelf company purchased by the Department for Transport; a perfectly ordinary company under companies law such as anyone might buy off the shelf. That already starts to raise questions around why we would think that it had any competence to run a railway. People will say, “Don’t be silly, that is just a form”. The form is an empty-shell company constituted under companies law, but the sole shareholder of that company will be the Department for Transport. In effect, the Department for Transport will be running this service through the shell company that it has bought off the shelf in order for it to be the recipient of the public service contract, which is the only type of contract that the Secretary of State will be able to award.

But the Minister said a little earlier in the debate— I cannot pin it down exactly without looking at Hansard, but I do not think that he will deny that he said it—that one of the main purposes of the Bill was to take out of the Department for Transport a whole load of stuff that it was no good at doing and give it to Great British Railways, because it would be better at doing it than the Department for Transport. Here we have a system proposed by the Bill in which the responsibility for operating a service will be taken from a train operating company with decades of experience of providing the service—perhaps, in some cases, hundreds of years of experience if it is a foreign railway company putting its foot into the British market and providing services to us—given to a company bought off the shelf, which is owned and controlled by a department that the Minister himself said should have functions taken away from it and transferred to Great British Railways. What sort of a mess is this?

That is why, very simply, this amendment asks for an assessment in advance as to whether that company —the operator—is fit for purpose. We are looking not simply at the shell company but at its shareholders and controllers—the people making the decisions. Why should not the public have that level of assurance before a franchise is terminated and transferred to such an entity? That is what the amendment is calling for, and there is a very strong case that it should be done.

The second amendment, Amendment 9, is not the same, but it points in a similar direction. Nothing is said in this Bill about what level of service the new operator will offer compared to the old operator. It is presumably for the Department for Transport or shadow Great British Railways—we do not know—to decide the terms and conditions of the public service contract that it will award. If it is the Department for Transport, it will award the contract to itself or to its shell company; if it is shadow Great British Railways, it will award it to the Department for Transport. Somebody will have to sit down and decide what those terms and conditions are. All we are asking in this amendment is that the services offered to the public should not be of a lower standard than they are under the existing franchise.

That is not to say that there is not the possibility of some sort of public consultation. That is what we have inserted. We have said that you can lower the services but that you have to consult publicly in advance. At the moment, that would be true on a transfer of a franchise. We have had no assurance from the Government that there will be a public consultation on the termination of a franchise and the award of a public service contract directly to one of the Department for Transport shell companies.

This is one of those issues about which the Government may want to say, ah ha, this will all be dealt with by the great big Bill coming down the rails towards us. That would be a grave mistake, because these issues relate specifically to this Bill and to what will happen the moment it starts to be implemented. As we discussed earlier, this Bill could be the governing statute of the operation of the railways for as much as four or five years, even if the Government have a good headwind behind their new measures and they come forward in time and are implemented reasonably. The public will want to know that our service levels are protected. Will they be consulted? Will the people who run these trains be fit for it, given that we know from the Minister that he does not think that they are fit for much else on the railways? I beg to move.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, for his amendments.

Amendment 7 considers the capability of public sector companies to take over services and operate them to an appropriate standard. It is clearly a key priority for the Government that services should transfer to public ownership smoothly, without detriment to the quality of service during the transition. For this reason, the transfer of services will take place using established arrangements and processes which have previously fulfilled the Secretary of State’s operator of last resort duties. I remind the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, that this has taken place under the previous Government and their predecessors four times with no obvious risk to the delivery of service.

DOHL is the publicly owned company that already oversees four existing publicly owned operators. It has had significant experience of managing the transition of services from private to public operation in recent years. These transfers have been completed successfully and smoothly despite challenging timescales and circumstances, which have included franchise financial failure and poor operator performance. DOHL is therefore well-placed to manage future transitions and is building its capacity to do so as we speak.

The Government have made it clear that we will transfer services on a phased basis as existing contracts expire. This measured, responsible approach will further de-risk the transfer process. As an additional safety net, the Bill includes provision at Clause 2 to allow for temporary continuation of an existing franchise where the Secretary of State is satisfied that it is not reasonably practicable to complete a transfer in the timescales originally planned. We do not plan to use this power other than in genuinely exceptional circumstances, but it is prudent that it should be available if necessary as a last resort, given that everybody would agree that disruption to passengers should be avoided.

Amendment 7 also seeks to provide a new role for the independent regulator, the Office of Rail and Road. The ORR is the regulatory authority responsible for granting operator licences and for assessing, approving and issuing operators’ safety certificates. This Bill does not change this. In its existing role, the ORR will assess carefully the suitability and readiness of any operator—public or private, passenger or freight—to take over services and to operate them safely, and is experienced in doing so. Considering DOHL’s previous experience and track record, the further safeguards I have described and the existing regulatory role of the ORR, the Government do not see any need to commission further analysis from the ORR as this amendment proposes.

Amendment 9 would require the Secretary of State, Scottish Ministers or Welsh Ministers to undertake a public consultation before specifying or allowing any reduction in service levels at all within a contract with a public sector operator.

I start by saying that the Government want to grow rail passenger demand and revenues; we are not starting out with an objective to cut services. When services transfer to public ownership, as now, we will expect operators to clearly communicate all changes to services. I agree that, if there were to be a plan for material reductions in service levels, this should be the subject of public consultation. However, I cannot support a statutory obligation to hold a public consultation in relation to every change to the timetable or to any other aspect of the service specification that somebody might consider to be to their disadvantage.

If a service is so poorly used that it is clearly unnecessary to carry on running it, and there is an alternative train available at a similar time of day, is it really sensible to expend time and public money on a consultation process? If there is a high-frequency service and a slight reduction at a quieter time of day would enable train and/or infrastructure maintenance to be carried out more efficiently and effectively, does this really merit a public consultation? If, God forbid, there were another global pandemic, or other immediate and extraordinary event that caused a serious reduction in passenger demand, I submit that it would be absurd to suppose that a public consultation would be necessary before reducing service levels.

There should of course be consultation on material reductions in services, but to require it regardless of the scale or impact of a proposed change would impose a disproportionate burden. I therefore urge the noble Lord not to press this amendment and to withdraw the amendment I spoke to first.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, will the Minister state at the Dispatch Box not that there should be a public consultation in the event of a material reduction of services on transfer of a contract but that there will be? If so, I would be very happy to leave the matter there. I would like to give him the opportunity to say that it is the Government’s policy that there will be a consultation if there is a material reduction in services on transfer.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

In response to the noble Lord, I do not see those circumstances arising. However, I will take the point away and consider it during the progress of the Bill.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

I note that the Minister has not been able to give that commitment. With that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I did not speak at Second Reading, but I often speak on issues around public investment. One of the things that concerns me greatly about this move, although generally I might be in favour of it, is that, internationally, public investment in this country tends to be extremely low. In fact, over the last 25 years, the average public sector investment is 1.8% of GDP, which most of the time is well below our equivalent G7 nations. However, if you look on it year to year, the graph is a rollercoaster that Alton Towers would probably be favourable to, because it goes up and down, up and down.

I was privileged—it was a great company—to work in the public sector for a short period of time in the transport sector, not on the railways but in another area. Certainly, one of the concerns we heard very regularly from organisations equivalent to us within the public sector—I was in the freight sector, which was so small that the Treasury did not worry about it—was that investment in the public sector operating companies tended to vary year by year depending on what the Treasury felt was possible in terms of public investment, which completely disrupted a regular, predictable and sensible investment programme in what were effectively commercial public enterprises. I would like to hear from the Minister how there will be effectively that barrier between what the Treasury wants to do year to year and the genuine needs of public sector railway companies to offer a consistent and improving service to the travelling public.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, for his Amendment 8, which would require public sector operators to publish plans for investment and innovation. I would dispute the proposition that a move to public ownership will produce a decrease in investment. As I have previously said, currently no meaningful private sector investment is being funded by franchising.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

I have not said that a move to public operation would reduce investment, nor have I argued it either here or anywhere else. The question put by the amendment is quite different to that.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. I did not say that he had made the assertion; I was disputing the proposition that a move in that way would produce a decrease in investment.

As I said, no meaningful private sector investment is being funded by franchised operators at present, so we are losing nothing by moving to a public ownership model. The Government are already reimbursing the legitimate operating costs of private sector operators and receiving the revenue. Even before the Covid pandemic, the main private investment in our railways was in rolling stock, generally funded by the rolling stock market, not by train operators or their owning groups. Given that the rolling stock market is not impacted by the Bill, there is no reason to see that change.

The Government, of course, wish to see innovation and investment in areas such as those described in the amendment. In fact, the public sector is already demonstrating its commitment to innovation. We have committed to reviewing the overcomplicated fares system, with a view to simplifying it and introducing digital innovations. Change is already being delivered: for example, by the slightly delayed, extended pay-as-you-go in the south-east and fares reform on LNER. Public ownership is essential to progress these fares and ticketing innovations and other reforms. Unlike under franchising, with public ownership we will be able to get these sorts of reforms done without needing a commercial negotiation with up to 14 different operators, each seeking to boost their profit at the taxpayer’s expense in return for agreeing to implement those reforms.

However, the Government do not consider it appropriate to spell out detailed requirements such as these in the legislation. To do so would constrain future flexibility to adapt operators’ obligations to suit changing circumstances. It is not necessarily the case that constant investment and innovation across all these different aspects of the customer offer is the right approach. The focus of innovation should be on those areas where improvement is most needed at any point in time, and not those that are already working well. Moreover, it will not be coherent for passengers, nor efficient for the taxpayer, if up to 14 separate publicly owned operators in England, plus those in Scotland and Wales, are each pursuing their own separate innovation and investment strategies across all these different aspects of the passenger offer.

A key purpose of our wider reforms, starting with the establishment of shadow GBR, will be to drive a much more coherent, cross-industry approach in areas such as those described in the amendment. GBR will be the right body to consider investment across the railways, and I ask noble Lords to wait to consider the Government’s proposals on GBR in the coming months, though I feel very confident that a coherent guiding mind for the railways will produce a longer-term and more consistently argued approach for investment than has been true in the past.

In summary, I support the underlying sentiment that investment and innovation are needed to drive improvements in many aspects of the passenger offer, but the proposed amendment is not the right way to deliver it. I offer my reassurance that investment and innovation are critical to our plans to reform the railways, but I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

I asked the Minister to tell me how we can isolate, to some degree, consistent investment decisions in the new railway structure from Treasury decisions that tend to move public investment up and down very regularly—I do not understand how that happens. We are moving from a situation where, if I have got this right, we have, effectively, investment being off-balance sheet through train operating companies and other organisations to on-balance sheet public expenditure. I am still desperate to understand how the new public sector train operating companies can properly rely on consistent investment. I would be interested to hear from the Minister what he expects the average level of investment in railways to be, per annum, over the next five years.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

A coherent guiding mind is far more likely to produce a long-term business plan for the railway that justifies future investment than the previous fragmented system. Very few of the owning groups or train operating companies have ever made any significant investment. The principal investment that has been made in passenger services is with the rolling stock companies, whose position is unaltered in the proposition of this Bill.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I come away from each of the Minister’s responses slightly more baffled and frustrated than I was before. Let us try and get clear what I think he is saying. This in part is my attempt to frame at least a model answer to the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson.

At the moment, the Minister would say that there are in principle three sources of investment in the railway. There is what is put in by the private sector—that happens to be a nil set, the number is zero, but in principle it is there. There is what is provided by the private sector for the purpose of acquiring trains for the purpose of leasing them out—that is unaffected by the Bill, so that is not going to change, and nor is there any suggestion, incidentally, although I may be wrong about this, of course, we wait to see, that that is going to change as part of the Great British Railways Bill coming down the track. Then there is the part that is put in directly by the Government and that is currently negotiated by Network Rail in a series of five-year control periods. I forget where we are in the current control period, but we are vaguely half way through a five-year control period.

So, in the future, what is the Minister holding out to us that is going to be different? The contribution from the train operating companies will continue to be zero, because they are now going to be simply shell companies or part of that. He is quite clear we are not losing or gaining anything on that particular front. There will be no change to the way in which the roscos are set up for the purpose of leasing trains. So everything is thrown back on the comparison with the Network Rail negotiations in relation to the current control periods. Somehow, because that is Great British Railways, it is going to be transformed.

We have just heard that it will be longer term, so it will not be a five-year control period, it will be a 10-year control period or a 15-year control period. That might be very desirable—but why? Why is the Treasury going to agree to a 10 or 15-year control period or whatever the number is beyond the five years that exist? And if it is not going to be a larger sum—he did not say a larger sum—it will at least be a more efficiently deployed sum, so that every pound will buy a little bit more than it would have bought under the current arrangement? Again, the question is: why?

The sort of answer we get is, “It is all going to be absolutely wonderful. It will be different and it will be wonderful, but it’s going to be the same and I can’t explain why”. That is where we seem to be left the whole time. Anyway, with that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

In response, I say only that seven would be a fantastically tiny number compared to the number of internal boards, committees, liaison bodies and so forth that Great British Railways is likely to require to explain to itself what it is doing, before it even gets round to explaining to the public what it is up to. I regard seven as a very modest and economical number.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend Lord Berkeley for his Amendment 11, regarding rest-day working. Rest-day working provides resilience in response to spikes in leave, sickness and training, and it rewards the workforce when extra hours and days are worked. It can offer benefits to rail employees, as well as to passengers. It is likely that it will always be necessary, to some extent, to effectively deliver the timetable. However, rest-day working should be used where there is an operational benefit and employees are willing to volunteer, rather than trying to mandate in legislation how and where it is used. Our focus is instead on ensuring, as soon as possible, that the railway industry has enough staff to operate services reliably for the benefit of passengers and employees, without excessive rest-day working.

My noble friend Lord Berkeley referenced the new trains on South Western Railway. I say to him that they are now entering service and, further, that Network Rail in fact substantially changed terms and conditions two years ago for greater flexibility and in agreement with the workforce, and that is now reflected in greater efficiency. That deal demonstrates what can be achieved in the public sector.

The noble Baroness, Lady Pidgeon, referred to uncertainty. There can be no greater uncertainty than has existed for the last 30 years on the railway, in which anybody of long service has changed their employer at least once, sometimes several times, while doing the same job. The people whom I meet going around the railway talk about it as “the railway”, many of them because their employer has changed so often that they cannot even remember the name of the company that they used to work for. Some stability in respect of the employers of staff on the railway, many of whom are deeply committed and have had long service, is overdue, and this Bill will move towards it.

Will there be a workforce plan? Yes. Is there one at the moment? No. As the train operating companies come into public ownership, they will have to have a workforce plan. Personally, I am absolutely committed to the maximum recruitment of drivers as early as possible, to the benefit of the drivers themselves and the service that the railway operates.

I also very much thank the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, for Amendment 18, which suggests that an independent body should be established to advise the Government on the pay and terms and conditions for railway staff under public ownership. We are committed to delivering the biggest overhaul of our railways in a generation. It is right that, as part of that process, these matters are considered. Employment conditions are an important issue and one that we are determined to get right.

My officials are at the early stages of exploring a number of options, including a pay review body, so that we can consider the most appropriate approach to meet the needs of a transformed industry. A number of different approaches exist across the public sector, including pay review bodies and wider guidance, and, as my noble friend Lord Snape said, the use of the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service. We need more time to reach an informed conclusion on the best approach for the rail sector. It would be inappropriate to commit to the introduction of an independent body before that work is completed. In particular, we do not need to do this now in relation to this Bill.

Amendment 49 is in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Moylan. It seeks to require the Secretary of State to produce a report on how public ownership will impact the implementation of the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Act 2023. The noble Lord must surely be aware, however, that the Government have already committed to repealing the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Act 2023. That is because this Government are committed to strengthening the rights of working people by empowering workers to organise collectively through trade unions.

No relevant employer, under the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels: Passenger Railway Services) Regulations, has chosen to implement minimum service levels under this legislation and, in fact, they will not work. Instead, we will work in partnership with trade unions, as we have done in recent weeks to bring an end to two years of disputes that have meant needless disruption and misery for passengers. So I must say to the noble Lord that the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Act will not be implemented for publicly owned services, or indeed at all under this Government—as, in fact, it was not under the last one. The suggested report, therefore, would be redundant.

Finally, I will respond to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Young, on the classification of the costs of rolling stock for publicly owned train operating companies when I respond to Amendment 19 in group 10 in the resumed Committee stage on Wednesday. I note for now that, whatever the position is, it must already apply to the four publicly owned train companies. I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

Before the noble Lord sits down, can I ask a question in reference to the fact that the Minister mentioned that there was no need to sort out terms and conditions now? What timeframe do the Government assume that they must follow in order to ensure that the first train operating companies to be taken into public ownership do so in an organised way so that new staff are recruited with modern terms and conditions of employment.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for her intervention. In fact, I did not say that there was no need to sort out the terms and conditions now; I said there was no need to sort out the particular matter of how the overall pay and conditions might be dealt with, including with the pay review body. As a matter of fact, the employees would transfer under the transfer of undertakings regulations. At that stage, no change is possible on the transfer. That will need to be resolved and I am sure that changes are in fact needed, if only because, at least in my view, some of the existing train operating companies have failed to develop the terms and conditions in the way that they should have, both to operate a better service and to reward the staff more effectively.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who took part in this short debate. My amendment was a probing one, as I said, and I have no regrets about tabling it because we have learned a great deal this evening. It has been easier to blame what has gone wrong in the railways and the strikes in the last few years on the trade unions or even the present Government, but most of the passenger franchises that have been operated in the last 10 or 20 years have had Department for Transport puppet-string holders behind them, telling them what they can and cannot do, which is not the way to negotiate. Most successful negotiations take place on the background of a client, customer or owner who knows what they are doing and has done it before, and trade unions that also know what they are doing.

I am pleased that my noble friend has given us a progress report on where this is likely to go and I thank him for the information and for updating me on some things, but I hope that it will not be too long before we see an even better arrangement for the workforce, whether it is a workforce plan or whatever, including Network Rail workers. Then everybody could get their heads down and get on with providing a good service to the customers—which is, of course, what everybody wants. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 21st October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

The noble Lord puts the Government’s case very well. How much the House has lost in not seeing him on the Front Bench as the Minister, given that he was the shadow Minister up until the general election.

We are told by the noble Lord that the Government have a package of reforms. We all have a package of reforms. We know what the package of reforms looks like; it is in the Shapps-Williams review. Yet what we are seeing from the Government is a package of reforms that differs significantly from the Williams review; that is why it needs such careful scrutiny.

Given the passage of time, I will be brief on the remaining amendments. All the amendments in my name seek to test the effects of this measure on the performance of the industry in the light of the nationalisation that the Government are proposing.

Taken separately, the amendments deal with different types of performance. Some deal with the performance of the railways in so far as they engage with passengers; that is, on timeliness, efficiency, service quality and so forth. Some relate to the performance of the railways in relation to finances; we will come to finances in more detail later. The Government claim that this Bill has no financial consequences—there are those of us on this side of the House, including the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, who treat that approach with great scepticism. Other amendments seek to examine the measure’s effect in relation to the performance of the network as a whole.

I hope that all these amendments will be accepted by the Government. If they are to make these changes, there needs to be transparency and the public need to be able to see metrics published, possibly by an independent body or possibly by the Department for Transport—we are open to persuasion on that—which show how the railway is performing.

Having come to power committed to transparency, I know the Government would not want to resile from that. So, if they are not able to support the detailed amendments as tabled, I expect that the Minister will have no difficulty in saying that the Government will put forward amendments on Report showing how this Bill will be monitored in its implementation.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill) (Lab)]

First, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Gascoigne, for his welcome; it is nice to see him again in different and more august circumstances—different, at least, from those that applied in the old City Hall. I thank him, and the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, for their explanations of this group of amendments, most of which require some form of reporting or assessment of the impacts of public ownership or the performance of publicly owned operators.

Like my noble friend Lord Snape, I am fascinated by the plethora of reports proposed at this stage of railway reform. Given that LNER has been in the public sector for six years, and Northern for four, it is strange that the measures now proposed for public sector train operators were never contemplated or enacted by the previous Government, who clearly never thought that they needed them. In simple terms, this Government do not either.

I welcome the support of the noble Lord, Lord Gascoigne, for railway reform. His Amendment A1 does not call for any reports but requires the Secretary of State to have regard to a specific purpose —to improve the performance of passenger services—when exercising functions under the Bill. I entirely support that purpose, and it is at the heart of what we are doing, but there are also many other purposes: stripping out inefficiency and waste on behalf of the taxpayers who fund the railway, simplifying fares and increasing patronage, connecting communities, driving economic growth and promoting opportunity for all. It is not right that the Bill should suggest that it has only that one purpose, important though it is.

Amendment 2, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, would require the publication of two reports: the first outlining the anticipated impact of public ownership, and the second assessing its actual impact some years after the event. Regarding the first of these reports, the Government have already fulfilled the proposed obligation through the impact assessment published earlier in the year. Among other expected impacts, the taxpayer will no longer have to fund many tens of millions of pounds in fees currently payable to private sector operators each year, even when their performance is sub-standard. Furthermore, public sector operators will prioritise the interests of passengers and taxpayers, not the demands of their shareholders.

A similar report is envisaged in Amendment 48A, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Gascoigne, but focused specifically on the impact on performance. I can assure the noble Lord that the Government certainly expect public ownership, and our broader reform proposals, to unlock the significant improvement in the performance and efficiency of the railway which he is looking for; we do not need to publish a report to say that.

Turning to the second proposed report envisaged in Amendment 2, there is no need to wait for three years before we start to consider whether train operators’ performance is improving. A wide variety of data is already routinely published about the performance of both public and private sector train operators. This includes reliability and punctuality, service quality, customer complaints, financial performance and efficiency, among other measures. This Bill does not change any of that, but as part of our wider reform plans, we will further improve access to data. This will be specific to individual routes and/or service groups, not just aggregated at the level of whole franchises, so that passengers can see at each station how services are performing on their local routes and, importantly, what is going to be done to improve them.

The Government can and will monitor performance closely on a continuing basis. We will hold operators’ feet to the fire when their performance is inadequate, irrespective of whether they are privately or publicly owned. The Secretary of State and I have already demonstrated that we will not accept the poor standards that have been tolerated in the past. We have demonstrated that from our first days in office by holding meetings with the managing directors of several train operators alongside their Network Rail counterparts to address poor performance and demand immediate action to raise standards.

In that respect, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Grayling, we are not discriminating between the public and private sectors and will not do so, as indeed he did not in his time. He rightly gave me a hard time in 2018 in respect of electrification in the north-west of England; even if it was not Network Rail’s responsibility, it related to the failings of GTR as an operator.

Amendment 26, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, would require the publication of a further report—or perhaps 10 reports, one after each transfer—setting out the expected impact of the transfers on various aspects of train operators’ performance. Again, once transfers have taken place, it would be more instructive to consider the actual performance of train operators.

Amendments 21 and 22, also tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, would require the reporting and independent assessment of the performance of publicly owned train operators. That is unnecessary because, as I have set out, the Government will themselves be monitoring their performance closely and will work to ensure that as much performance data as possible is published for the benefit of the travelling public, in a form that is useful to them and that allows for effective scrutiny.

My department is currently reviewing the standard terms of the service agreements that are entered into between the Secretary of State and public sector operators, in readiness for future transitions to public ownership. Public operators will be set targets in key areas such as punctuality and reliability and other aspects of the service. Work is under way to identify the right targets and measures for the period ahead in order to focus operators on delivering the best possible outcomes for passengers and taxpayers. As part of the service agreement review, we will consider the arrangements for publishing those targets and operators’ actual performance in comparison to them.

Amendment 22 refers to performance improvement plans. I reassure the noble Lord that improvement plans are already a feature of the Government’s service agreements with each public sector operator. I confirm for noble Lords that similar mechanisms will continue to exist in future, both through contractual terms and through the controls that DOHL exerts over its operators on behalf of the Secretary of State. As I have said, where performance is falling short, we will not hesitate to demand that things are put right, regardless of whether the operator is privately or publicly owned.

Amendment 45, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, requires the publication of an independent assessment of the performance and efficiency of the rail network five years after the enactment of this Bill. By that time, the Government will have established Great British Railways, which will have taken over responsibility for both track and train. New arrangements will need to be put in place to oversee and scrutinise the effectiveness and efficiency of GBR, so in due course we will set out our plans for holding it to account as part of our plans for the wider railways Bill. We should not pre-empt those future arrangements by seeking to legislate for them now.

I hope we will deal with all the noble Lord’s other points during the rest of Committee, as we shall with the detailed comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, on staff morale and the British Transport Police. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, I confirm that there are no changes to Section 4 of the 1993 Act.

In answer to my noble friend Lord Snape, in the present Bill there will be no change to the role of Office of Rail and Road; he needs to await the substantive railway Bill for that, at least with regard to the railway element of the ORR. There will be public consultation on the wider Bill before it comes, so there is no need to wait until the publication of the Bill itself.

I also say to the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, that there is currently no meaningful private investment by train operating companies, so we are not losing anything in the Bill that is on the table today. Contrary to his assertion about the Williams report, its author, Keith Williams, envisaged public ownership as a necessary condition to rationalise a number of things on the railways, in particular fares, ticketing and information.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I should respond to the noble Lord on three or four points. First, whatever the Williams report said—and it was adequate in what it said at the time—I took the trouble, only a few days ago, to confirm with its author that he acknowledged we could not change the fares, ticketing and information systems without taking the train operating companies or their activities into public ownership.

Secondly, the noble Lord knows perfectly well how a large public body can behave in monitoring activities, whether it carries them out itself or has contractors or concessionaires to do it, because he will be as familiar as I am with the experience of Transport for London. It monitored its own activities, published them and allowed others to scrutinise them. That principle is the one which should be adopted by Great British Railways.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

So is it Great British Railways that will be doing it, like TfL, and not the Department for Transport? I am very confused.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

Well, the noble Lord should not be, because it is quite clear to me that the Government intend to take a large amount of activity out of the Department for Transport and put it in a body that is responsible for the performance of the railways. That being the case, it would be extremely logical that monitoring performance is done by GBR but properly scrutinised by others.

Lastly, I simply say to the noble Lord opposite that there has been a change of government. The policies that this Bill and the railways Bill will seek to enact are the policies that the Government were elected to carry out.

[Lord Gascoigne (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to everyone who spoke in what I thought was going to be a relatively brief debate, but I think we have clocked up over an hour and it has become far-reaching, showing the wealth of knowledge in your Lordships’ Committee.

I will cover some of the points that were raised. The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, raised HS2 and my own position. As a northerner, I have my own personal views, but I have to say that I was merely a Whip on the Government Front Bench and, as powerful as I may have been in controlling speaking times from the Dispatch Box, I did not have the power to control spending. It is something I will raise with the Opposition Chief Whip, my former boss, later. With respect, perhaps the noble Lord may want to speak to his own Front Bench about future spending plans. If I may say so, I think the Prime Minister’s own position on HS2 has been perhaps confused over the years.

Turning back to the debate, I think this group was about the future plans covered by this Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Snape, suggested that my Amendment A1 would create bureaucracy, and I think the Minister said that it would not; it is merely a purpose clause. I repeat what I said earlier: my only wish is to make it clear that services will improve.

I am grateful for the Minister’s response, but I would have thought that the Government could have at least supported Amendment A1 as it is a purpose clause. It could demonstrate that the Government do not believe that the Bill will improve services. Although the Minister said at the Dispatch Box that it would improve services, he then listed a number of other things it would do. I do not know if I should take that as meaning that the Government will accept my amendment but also list all the other points they believe it will do as a purpose clause. That said, obviously this will be an ongoing conversation and for now I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I begin by speaking briefly to Amendment 30, standing in my name, which proposes the deletion of the word “reasonably” from Clause 2, line 29. At this point in the Bill, the prohibition on the Secretary of State from renewing franchises is alleviated by this clause in certain circumstances. One of them is where the Secretary of State is satisfied that it will not be reasonably practicable to provide or secure the provision of the franchise service, et cetera.

This is a simple probing amendment, on which I do not want to spend a great deal of time, other than to simply ask what the Government mean by the word “reasonably” here. What is “reasonably” adding to “practicable”? It seems that it is creating potential difficulties for the Government. On one hand, if they were challenged in court about this—I hasten to add that I am not a lawyer—I think they would find that one of the tests they would be put to is whether they had acted reasonably, and that would be true whether the word was in the statute or not. Here, it seems to me that there is a double standard of “reasonably” being applied to them. What do they mean by “reasonably”? In what circumstances do they envisage having recourse to it, and would the Bill not actually be better without it? I would be grateful for the Minister’s comments on those points.

On the substance of the debate, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Market, on having secured universal approbation for her proposal from all speakers who have spoken today. She wants something that appears to be very common-sensical: that the poor franchises should be terminated and cleared out as soon as possible and before the well-operating franchises are cleared out, so that we do not have a situation where good operators are removed from service while poor operators are left in place.

Yet, because of the rush with which the Government have come at the Bill, and because of their determination to be able to say, “We’ve achieved something in the manifesto as fast as we possibly can”, that is exactly the effect of the Bill as it is constructed. Operators that we know to be poor will continue for considerably longer than those that are in fact performing very satisfactorily. I suspect that the Government will say that this is because they have to terminate franchises at the time they fall due, because to terminate them any earlier would cost public money and they would need to pay compensation. As the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, said, that is of course the legal advice they would receive, though what exactly some of these poor performers would expect by way of compensation is a political question and one that could easily be put to the test, as the noble Lord said.

The other matter here is that the Government already envisage that some franchise contracts, despite the prohibition in the Bill, may be renewed for practical reasons, reasonably or otherwise. It is possible to renew a franchise on a short-term basis. In fact, nearly all the franchises currently operating are operating on very short-term contracts. The financial liability carried with those short-term contracts is very small. So, even if a good performer were to have their franchise fall in very soon, if an appropriate exemption to the prohibition were inserted in the Bill, they could still be kept going on a short-term contract without creating a significant new liability to the Government, while the poor contracts fell in and were terminated without any risk to the Government. If the Government were not in such a terrible rush, all of this would create a logical structure for the termination of contracts which passengers would understand and which would not run the risks that were stated so clearly by the noble Baroness who moved the amendment.

There is a great deal to be said for this. I hope the Minister, when he replies, will not take refuge in simply saying, “Oh, we’ve got no choice because this is what the public finances dictate and it is all driven by finances and contracts”. The management of these contracts—by a confident Government who know what they are doing and a Secretary of State who wants to achieve something and knows the direction in which she is heading—is essentially a political matter. It can be done and the Government should step up to the plate and do this for their own sake if they wish their reforms to get off to a good start.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for explaining their amendments in this group, which consider some of the practical aspects of the Government’s plans to transfer services to public ownership. Amendments 1 and 48 focus on the contractual arrangements that allow the Secretary of State to terminate a franchise early, following a breach of contract or other sustained poor performance. I make it absolutely clear that this Government will not hesitate to act decisively where an operator’s unacceptable performance means that the contractual conditions for early termination are met. The Secretary of State has made this plain on a number of occasions and I am happy to reiterate it to your Lordships today.

However, I am very much afraid that the terms of the contracts we have inherited from the previous Government do not make this easy. It is far easier for an operator to return the contract to the Government than it is for the Government to take back a contract for poor performance. It is deeply regrettable that in the past couple of years, some of the poorest performing operators have been awarded the longest contracts.

Noble Lords will not be surprised to know that we have looked very hard at the form of the contract. We are closely monitoring train operators’ compliance with their contract, but at present we are not in a position—with any operator—where the Secretary of State has a contractual right to terminate for poor performance. Noble Lords might be amazed to know that Avanti has not yet triggered the need for a remedial plan, although it may well do so. While CrossCountry has triggered the need for a remedial plan, we need to let that work through, together with the timetable reduction that the Secretary of State was deeply reluctant to agree to, before we discover whether its performance then merits some further contractual remedy.

Unless and until that contractual right arises, the only sensible approach is to transfer services to public ownership when the existing contracts expire. Any other approach would require taxpayers to foot the bill for compensation to operators in return for ending their contracts early, which the Government made clear in our manifesto that we would avoid, if only because of the state of the public finances we inherited.

I have also heard representations on behalf of operators—or, rather, their owners—that, rather than transferring services as contracts expire, we should leave their services in private hands for as long as possible. All the owning groups knew of these dates and would have planned financially for them in any event. The concern seems to be that service quality will suddenly collapse, or that current plans for service improvements, or for the rollout of new train fleets, will suddenly grind to a halt.

There is no basis for these claims. DOHL is experienced in transferring services into the public sector smoothly and without disruption, as it has proved in the difficult aftermath of past franchise failures. As services transfer, the same trains will be operated by the same staff as before, and no doubt often by the same management, as happened with LNER six years ago. The improvements that are already in train will continue. I have no reason to think that performance will deteriorate. Extending specific operators’ tenure will simply delay the process of bringing services back to public ownership, where they belong, and the financial savings that will result.

In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Grayling, while there have been transfer costs from franchise to franchise, he will of course recognise that the incoming franchisee would not pay that cost gratuitously; they would simply add it to the subsidy bill for the franchise they were inheriting. In the end, the public sector pays, as it has always done. In fact, since Covid, the operators have not funded anything at all, so the quantum in the future is likely to be extremely limited.

[Lord Grayling (Con)]

I would like some clarification from the Minister on that point. Has the department added up that liability? Does he have a total number for the transfer into the public sector of all the franchises?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The answer to the noble Lord is: not yet. He will recognise that those costs materialise only when the franchise transfers, so the department will never have had that total number in the past, and I do not expect it to have it now. As the franchises transfer, the number will become obvious.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

Before my noble friend leaves that point, I will ask him about the question of performance that has been raised on both sides of the House. The public performance measure national average is 88.7%, but the Avanti West Coast performance measure is only 62.2%—some 25% less. What has to be done to remove a franchisee which has performed so badly, as in the case of Avanti, other than knocking down the buffers at Euston and heading a Pendolino down Eversholt Street?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

In answer to my noble friend, and in recognition of some of what I have done in the past, it is sometimes a surprise when you read the performance requirements for contracts that you inherit. This is clearly one of those cases. I cannot defend the statistics that my noble friend cited, and I cannot defend a contract that allows that to happen without remedy.

In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, we will come to devolution later in Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

I will not pursue the question of “reasonably” at this stage, but I was struck by the Minister saying that the Bill should not trammel the Secretary of State’s power in relation to how she manages contracts and franchises. However, that is exactly what the Bill does in Clause 2. What he wants is the liberty, within reason, of the Secretary of State to terminate franchises. But Clause 2 specifically sets out, in very clear language, a prohibition on the Secretary of State to award a contract to anything that is not a public sector company. It says that she may do so only

“by making a direct award of a public service contract to a public sector company”.

Admittedly, further down the page, there are, as we have discussed and as the Minister said, one or two very narrow exceptions for practicality, or reasonable practicality. But why do the Government feel that the Secretary of State should have complete liberty when it comes to terminating franchises, but is so untrustworthy and unreliable, so enamoured of the private sector and so easily seduced into re-awarding them the contract that there has to be a legal prohibition on her doing it here? All Members of the Committee are asking for is some flexibility in Clause 2 about what the Secretary of State is allowed to do—why not? Can she not be trusted?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The answer is that it is the Government’s policy to take train operations into public ownership. The words the noble Lord mentions in Clause 2 just emphasise that intention.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

I would like to raise another point about Avanti. As I understand the law, the Secretary of State has a clear right to withdraw contracts on the basis of passenger service performance. Is it the case that the present Secretary of State cannot make her own judgment of that and is bound by whatever was decided before the last election? Would a court really not accept that the present Secretary of State has the right to make that judgment and act on it?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

Before the Minister responds, perhaps I could add something to my noble friend’s comments on Avanti and performance. My noble friend Lord Snape mentioned, I think, a 60-something per cent public performance measure. What we do not know is the difference between delays caused by Avanti itself and Network Rail, the infrastructure manager. GBR will be in charge of the infrastructure as well as the trains, and it is pretty important that we know the balance between the causes of the delay, and how this will improve. Maybe my noble friend the Minister could write to us and give us a breakdown of the performances of the existing services and Network Rail. I believe, at the moment, that Network Rail is responsible for something like 70% of the delays, but maybe I am wrong. I look forward to his comments.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

On my noble friend Lord Liddle’s comment, I am sure the Secretary of State would like to make her own decision, but I am pretty confident that the work done in the department to assess whether Avanti is meeting its performance standards has taken into account what latitude there is. I suspect there is very little because of the contract terms.

I will write to my noble friend Lord Berkeley, and make the letter available, about the causes of delay on the west coast main line and to Avanti’s services. It is, of course, as he knows, undoubtedly true that every set of delays on the railway is due to a combination of the train operator and the infrastructure, and the way in which those parties manage their interaction with each other. When the Secretary of State and I have seen train companies about their performance, we have insisted that they are always accompanied by the relevant route directors of Network Rail. One of the issues is the root cause of the delays; another is how well those parties interact to resolve them. One of the issues on the west coast main line is that Network Rail’s control point, not unreasonably, is at Rugby where the signalling system is, Avanti’s control is in Birmingham and its train crews are managed from Preston. I would not run a railway like that myself.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

Going back to the contracts that are performing well, what is the Minister’s view on emergency situations, such as the recurrence of Covid and lockdowns? Would an existing contract, as currently written, enable an extension if the Government felt they needed it, or would they have to come to an end, so that we have to go through a fresh bidding process, come what may?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

It varies in accordance with the particular train company. Some of them are coming to a natural conclusion, others have break clauses that enable termination and, in a limited number of cases, there are some choices that could be made. To that extent, we will have to make them.

[Baroness Scott of Needham Market (LD)]

My Lords, I am very grateful for the support I have received from across the Committee for my amendment. I am not sure I can remember it happening to me before, and I was basking in the warm glow until the Minister stood up to reply. I am sure that all Members of the Committee will be disappointed because, at the bottom of this, we will be renationalising the Greater Anglia franchise with a performance rating in the 90 per cents, and leaving Avanti in place with its performance in the 60 per cents. Whatever the policy or legal niceties, people will be bewildered by that. I have every sympathy with the Minister; the Government inherited a contract that seems to have allowed extraordinary latitude to Avanti for poor performance. I also recognise the twin problem that it has an extraordinarily long franchise, but I am sure that he has heard very clearly what everyone is saying here. The message to him is: please be absolutely sure that there is not some extent to which political will can find a way through this. A failure to deal with this will leave the travelling public absolutely bewildered. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

The Government are going to allow public service contracts to be awarded “only” to public sector companies. How much better things might be if they had the flexibility that would allow us to head towards a better railway and one for which we might have a plan. I now realise, having carried this weighty and valuable document around in recent weeks to prepare myself for this debate, that it is as nothing, it is as writ in water, a mere telephone call, and a ghostly intervention from outside the Chamber can rewrite it at any moment. We have no direction. We have no idea where we are going. The train is setting off and we are completely adrift.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The next time I see our mutual friend Keith Williams I shall tell him that the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, said he was ghostly.

I thank noble Lords for explaining their amendments in this group, which consider, as we have heard, various alternatives to public ownership. Amendments 3 and 5, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, would allow contracts to be awarded to private operators following a competitive process. Amendments 28 and 29, from the noble Lords, Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Moylan, would allow franchises to be continued where the current operator is providing a satisfactory service. I do not support these amendments.

The Government were elected on a manifesto commitment to return passenger services into public ownership—having published, for the avoidance of doubt, the detailed plan entitled Getting Britain Moving—and we have a clear democratic mandate to do so. Despite what has been heard this afternoon, public ownership is a change with clear public support. Last month, YouGov published a survey showing that 66% of people nationally agree that railway companies should be run in the public sector; only 12% favoured private operation.

We are determined to return to a passenger railway which is run for the public, by the public, with passengers, not private shareholders, at the heart of the system. We will not leave the back door open to franchising, a model which has failed passengers and taxpayers. We are committed to public ownership because continuing with franchising would mean continuing to pay fees to private operators, ultimately for the benefit of their shareholders, when that money could be retained for the public good. Franchising would not allow us to integrate track and train in the way we propose to do under Great British Railways, which is the only way to put a stop to the fragmentation and waste of the franchising system, otherwise we will not be able to sweep away the outdated, complex and costly mechanisms that make the fares system impossible to understand for passengers, and even now prevent rational change because of “commercial confidentiality”, even though all the revenue risk is now taken by government. There is no benefit to continuing franchised operations on our railways.

Contrary to views expressed by noble Lords previously, there is no meaningful private sector investment being funded by franchised operators at present, so we are losing nothing by moving to a public ownership model. The Government are already reimbursing the legitimate operating costs of private sector operators and receiving all their revenue. Even before Covid, the main private investment in our railways was in rolling stock, which was generally funded by the rolling stock market and not by train operators or their owning groups.

I turn to Amendments 4, 14 and 15, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan. These amendments require competitive awards to be made to private sector companies on the basis of a concession model, along the lines of Transport for London’s approach, rather than bringing them into public ownership. These amendments would remove the opportunity to deliver the benefits of public ownership, which, as I have said, a clear majority of the public support and which was a specific commitment in the manifesto on which this Government were elected.

The Government’s first objection is that a concession model would mean the private sector continuing to earn substantial profits. Public ownership will put a stop to the flow of money that already sees in excess of £100 million paid out in fees to the private sector each year, even when operators are bearing no significant financial risk.

A TfL-style concession model would expose operators to more financial risk than the current national rail contracts, which means that operators would want to earn significantly more in profits at the taxpayers’ expense and would price their bids accordingly. Not only would concessions be more expensive than this Government’s plans for public ownership but they would be even more costly to taxpayers than the current contracts.

In addition, the TfL concession model involves a very closely defined and largely unchangeable service specification developed in detail by the public authority, with therefore little room for the operator to negotiate changes post tender award in circumstances where they would always have the upper hand on pricing. Our national railway system is much larger, flows alter over time, and one of the great benefits of GBR is that it will be able far more easily to adapt to changing and growing markets and to save costs without endless contract renegotiation with contractors which, except at the point of contract award, always have the upper hand.

The noble Lord, Lord Moylan, referred to the TfL experience of contracting the London bus market. In two previous jobs I was responsible for that market for virtually 15 years. It is a different market because there are a large number of small contracts changing hands, so if a contractor is sufficiently unwise to suggest expensive changes when contracts need to be altered then there is the opportunity to at least counter that by the next award of contracts for other bus routes. That has not been the case in the railway market. It is never likely to be the case. It is a different circumstance.

As a practical point, this amendment would abolish the option for the Secretary of State to appoint a public sector company to run services once a franchise agreement comes to an end. What does the noble Lord envisage would happen under this amendment if an operator went bust at short notice, or lost its licence to operate or its safety certificate? What if a competition failed to deliver a satisfactory outcome? Passengers could not wait a couple of years while the Government run a competition for a new concession. I would also ask whether it is the noble Lord’s intention to tie the hands of the Scottish and Welsh Governments, as this amendment would do, and whether they support these amendments. I think he knows that they certainly would not.

Amendment 10, as the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, said, was to facilitate Amendments 4, 14 and 15, so I will pass over it.

Amendment 35, tabled by my noble friend Lord Liddle, would allow the Secretary of State, and Scottish and Welsh Ministers to award contracts to either a public/private partnership or a co-operative venture involving staff and passengers. The Government’s approach to this is driven by pragmatism, not ideology, and we are certainly not seeking to close the door on private investment, as I will explain later in Committee when we come to discuss rolling stock.

However, I point out that examples of private investment in our railway infrastructure have been fairly thin on the ground in the privatisation era. Nearly all the enhancements to the network have been publicly funded. The noble Lord, Lord Young, referred to electrification, but, as far as I can tell, there has been no electrification ever funded by any party except the Government.

The Government are certainly open to hearing proposals for how private investment might be brought to bear to improve the railway in the future. If noble Lords and others have good ideas, I encourage them to bring them forward as we develop and engage on our plans and consult in due course for Great British Railways and the wider railway reforms.

However, I do not think that involving private finance means that our plans for public ownership of train operations should change. It is fundamental to the Government’s plans for the railway that services should be run by the public, for the public. There are other ways of engaging private capital, short of ownership, and for the most part, even 100% private sector ownership of train operating companies under franchising has not resulted in large investments being funded by those companies.

As for co-operative ventures, I am all in favour of giving passengers and communities a stronger say in the decisions that affect them, but the likelihood of any co-operative venture raising any significant amount of capital—let alone the current circumstances of the owning groups of the present train operators—is, frankly, very small. Our plans are designed to give passengers and communities a stronger say in the decisions that affect them, not least by establishing a new passenger standards authority and by providing a new statutory role for devolved and mayoral combined authorities. We will get to the question of devolution in due course. The Government have shown, through our approach to resolving long-running disputes left to us to resolve by the previous Government, that we are committed to working with the workforce to address the challenges facing our railways.

The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, raised a question about future flexibility. The last legislation for the railways has lasted 31 years, and I note that it had a specific prohibition of public operation of the railways system. That might have been reasonable then but it is certainly reasonable now in the present circumstances, given our policies and manifesto commitment, to replicate our belief that public ownership is the right way of going forward with passenger railway operation.

In conclusion, the Government’s plans for the railways are founded on consolidating responsibility for track and train operations within a single entity, Great British Railways, particularly at a route and operating company level. Already, in my short period in this post, as I have said previously, we have had performance meetings with an operator and a Network Rail route. In one meeting, I enjoyed considerably one manager telling me how great collaboration was between the two parties, which were not owned by the same organisation, while the other simultaneously sat there shaking her head vigorously, demonstrating an absence of the very co-operation that I was being told would happen.

My whole professional history tells me that the railway will run better with somebody in charge of both track and train together at a route and operating company level. That is the way that we will deliver better revenue, decreased costs and, particularly, better reliability. This is not consistent with seeking to preserve private sector operation, whether through franchises or concessions, or with awarding contracts to public/private partnerships or arm’s-length co-operative ventures. I am amused to see that Rail Partners has reversed its previous opposition to the concession model post the election, having spent several years previously explaining why it would not work on the national railway network. I rather agree with its previous analysis. I therefore urge noble Lords to withdraw and not press their amendments.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have participated in this not terrifically long but interesting debate—not least my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham, who admirably demonstrated the potential benefits of a mixed economy in the provision of rail services and referred to reasons why the Government might in the future need the flexibility that these amendments would offer.

I go back as far as the mid-1980s, when I was a civil servant participating in a spending round not dissimilar to the present one in a Star Chamber, where different nationalised industries had their capital programmes traded off against each other. I have to say that cost-benefit analysis was not a significant part of that discussion; it was mostly a discussion of the political benefits or otherwise. I fear the same will be true in the future and that some investment projects that should be funded will not be. It will be a great pity if that turns out to be the case for rail services in future.

I do not have the benefit of knowing Mr Keith Williams personally. I am tempted, as a former Leader of the House of Commons, to say that we instituted evidence sessions in committee. I wonder whether we could take an evidence session before a committee in this House as well; perhaps we will think about that for the future.

I thank the Minister for at least laying it all out pretty straightforwardly. He may come to regret saying that, essentially, as the 1993 Act was an ideological determination that there should not be public sector operators on the railways, we must now have legislation that says there must be only public sector operators on the railways. I am with the many of those who take another view—not least the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, whose point on open access was about giving the private sector the opportunity under limited circumstances.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I will first say that I am delighted to see the noble Baroness, Lady Pidgeon, in her place. I hope that her questions will be easier than the ones she has asked me for the last 16 years.

I thank noble Lords for explaining their amendments in this group, which consider the impacts of public ownership on the freight sector and the British Transport Police. I shall speak first to Amendment 6, in the names of my noble friend Lord Berkeley and the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, and Amendment 41 in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and the noble Lords, Lord Bradshaw and Lord Moylan.

These amendments highlight the importance of the rail freight sector, which has a crucial role to play in supporting a productive economy and in helping to decarbonise transport on the way to net zero. The Bill in front of the House sets out with two very specific purposes: to enable franchised passenger services to be brought into public ownership as existing contracts expire, and then to enable the Government to keep them there in accordance with their manifesto commitment. As such, the Bill has no direct impact on freight operators or on the availability of network capacity to accommodate freight services. Indirectly, though, freight operators should benefit from public ownership of passenger services, for reasons I am happy to explain.

In the old franchising model before the pandemic, a franchise operator’s commercial motivation was to maximise its own profit—evidently, the difference between its revenues and its costs. If that meant running additional services, it would seek to do so through the usual industry processes of bidding for access rights and then for a timetable that included the extra services. It would not matter, and has not mattered, to the franchise operators that this might deprive freight operators of the opportunity to serve new markets in the future. There are various examples of franchise bidders seeking to win contracts on the back of proposed service enhancements that risked crowding out, or actually have crowded out, potential future freight growth.

Under public ownership, that unfortunate incentive will no longer exist. Publicly owned operators will instead be remitted to act in the interests of all users of the railway, including freight customers. We have made it clear that the forthcoming railways Bill will require Great British Railways to enable the growth of rail freight and that the Secretary of State will set an overall freight growth target to ensure that it remains a key priority. I am sure that we will debate these points further once the railways Bill is before your Lordships’ House.

The noble Lords, Lord Bradshaw and Lord Young, my noble friend Lord Berkeley and others asked how capacity will be allocated. I can certainly tell them how it is done now, because we have had an immense struggle to obtain a timetable on the east coast main line which seeks to justify the £4 billion-worth of public investment to speed up services and provide more passenger capacity. One reason we have had that struggle is that, although there is an appeal mechanism to the Office of Rail and Road, there is in fact no current decision-making process to allow a timetable to be completed, except by agreement. I believe and hope that it is currently in its last stages, but I am not certain.

One of the things that the Government have in mind is that Great British Railways ought to be the body that decides. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, will recall what was the case on the old railway: somebody had to decide which services were of greatest priority and which ones had to be fitted round them. Under the current Bill, however, there is no change to the existing role of the ORR in access decisions for passenger and freight services. Under the future railways Bill—and we will consult on this—there will be appropriate safeguards for both freight and open access operators. We will set out details on that in due course, before any changes to the current approach are made. There is no need to require the publication of a report on this matter. Commissioning a report after this Bill, when in fact there will be no change at this point, will not add benefit to the debate.

I turn next to Amendment 40, in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Pidgeon and Lady Randerson, and the noble Lord, Lord Moylan.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

Before we move on to the British Transport Police and while we are still considering freight paths, the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, for whom I have enormous respect because of his experience on the railway, made the point that investment decisions are very important to getting more freight on to the railway. Is not the real question about freight the priority it is given in the investment decision-making process? I know the Bill is not about that, but, since there is concern about this in the Committee, can the Minister give us any guidance as to how investment will be prioritised?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend Lord Liddle for that intervention. All I can say at this point is that I would hope the rail network enhancement programme is published more frequently, and with more success in what it contains, than it has been for some years. We will have to wait and see what the fiscal situation allows.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

Would that be a decision for the Secretary of State or for Great British Railways?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I think in due course we will have to come back in the substantive Bill with a proposition on how those decisions are made, who makes them, and for what period of time the plan is valid.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his response to my amendment and other people’s. I have one or two questions that I hope will help the extended debate, because I do not believe we can leave the most important question of competition, which a number of noble Lords have mentioned.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

Before the noble Lord sums up on his amendment, I think the Minister has yet to reply on the issue of the police.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I apologise to the Committee; it is my novice inexperience. I thank the noble Lord for that intervention.

I turn to Amendment 40 in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Pidgeon and Lady Randerson, and the noble Lord, Lord Moylan. Amendment 40 would require the Secretary of State to report to Parliament on the impact of the Bill on the British Transport Police 12 months after its enactment. The BTP is governed by the Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003, which is not affected by this Bill. Under the 2003 Act, the British Transport Police Authority is responsible for the efficient and effective policing of the railways and for maintaining the British Transport Police force. The authority sets annual budgets for the BTP and recovers the costs of the BTP from the rail industry—of course, now, notably, this is all paid for by government—by entering into police service agreements. The authority sets the funding contributions for each railway service provider via a cost allocation model to ensure that contributions reflect the services provided by BTP and cover its costs.

Under the 2003 Act, the Secretary of State has made an order which requires railway service operators, as well as Network Rail, to enter into police services agreements. This obligation applies equally to public sector operators and private sector franchisees, and I can confirm that all four existing operators under DOHL have a police services agreement in place.

In conclusion, there is no reason to believe that public ownership under this Bill would have any adverse impacts on the freight industry or the BTP, so I hope my noble friend will be persuaded to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I apologise for intervening earlier and preventing my noble friend responding on the British Transport Police issue, which is most important. I would like to ask him whether it applies to Scotland.

About 10 years ago we had a debate here when the Scottish Government wished the Scottish police to take over British Transport Police activities in Scotland. My noble friend Lord Faulkner of Worcester and I tried to argue—I think the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, was there too—that this was a bad idea because policing the railways is fairly specialist work, as the noble Baroness, Lady Pidgeon, has told us. We ended up trying to divide the House at about midnight, which my Chief Whip at that time did not think was a particularly good idea because I had not told him about it. I pointed out that he was probably in bed asleep by then. Anyway, we did not win that time, but we did manage to achieve BTP having responsibility for railways in Scotland. It would be nice if my noble friend the Minister could explain how that will work under the new GBR system.

I will respond to my noble friend’s comments on the other issue, which is mainly about capacity and competition—whether it is freight, open-access operators or whatever. It was interesting that he said that the Government invested £4 billion in the east coast main line. That must have been in order to get an extra train per hour and a few other trains between Edinburgh and London. I am wondering who decided that it was a good thing to invest in the east coast main line to get more intercity services, rather than more freight or cross-country services. That it has not been delivered yet indicates that something else needs resolving, and we will have to see what that is.

The other issue is straight competition. I was not working on the railways before privatisation. I am assuming that Great British Railways in its 1990s shape had a number of divisions, as a noble Lord told us, including a freight division. That obviously worked very well at that stage, but when those in the freight division wanted another pass or two on a main line, I would hazard a guess that they had quite a job persuading the passenger people to move over a bit and give them space.

Great British Railways will be a monolith organisation. I am sure that underneath, it will have lots of subdivisions, which we will debate at some point. This will probably include the intercity services and regional services, and it will have to take into account open-access passenger and freight services. I cannot see how it will be able to demonstrate a fair allocation of paths when, as the noble Lord, Lord Young, mentioned, it will get all the extra revenue from an extra train if it is a GBR train, but no revenue apart from track access charges if it is an open-access train or a freight train.

This is a really serious and financially challenging discussion that we will need to have. I hope my noble friend will be able to respond in part to what I have said. I hope he will be prepared to meet me and anybody else who is interested in this competition issue before Report. I would like to see some wording in the Bill that would give open access passenger and freight some comfort that what goes in the next Bill will not send them over the edge. Could my noble friend respond to those points? I do not know whether he is prepared to.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I will respond to my noble friend by either talking to him outside or writing to him.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.